New thread; here are my old threads:
Hoping Friends Can Return to LoversHoping 2Hoping 3Hoping 4Living With No ExpectationsIn-Home Separation, One Year PointIn-Home Separation, One Year Point 2Month 13: Telling Kids and Going Public14 Months Secret Separation: talking mediationAre Things Getting Better? 1.25 years inLimbo with a Side of Lawyers ~16 MonthsSeparation at 17.5 MonthsAnswering Tough Questions (18 Months)New Year, New Life (19 months)Just a Big Disappointment (19.5 months)Living, Getting the Paperwork Started (20 months)I was getting some good feedback on the relatively minor issue that a year and a half into separation and just before we told the kids and a week before he moved out he spent what is to us a very large amount of money at a Couples Boutique nearby that sells sex toys and lingerie. That upset me because it brings up feelings I feel are pointless, jealousies and disappointments, resentments and insecurities, anger about money, hopelessness to see him moving on, and irritation to see him acting out like someone I've never known.
I was told by several that this is probably innocuous and there might be a good explanation that would prevent my mixed up feelings, but I sincerely doubt that. All the events and hurts that are behind my mixed up feelings are still there even if he was shopping with a buddy who had no credit card with him and just couldn't wait to get his girlfriend's Christmas gift.
And as I've reminded H numerous times, he moved out. His business is his business and mine is mine. But that doesn't mean I don't have feelings. Denying my feelings in large part got me here, and is a major project I've been working on for almost two years now. I'm not going to tell my feelings to detach because honestly that's not always healthy. Sometimes you have to feel them and sort them out. You have to respect them.
Also, I was really impressed with the answer about how marriage is emotional, spiritual and legal, and the real parts of it ended long ago, making it sort of ok that my husband is forming new relationships or at least having sex with someone. I thought that made sense yesterday, and today I don't anymore.
I'm married until I'm divorced. It's simpler for me, and it feels right, and I pledged myself, my heart and my life, to a commitment to marriage. It looks very likely that my H isn't going to stay in it, but until it's legally undone I'm legally married. I've learned enough to know all situations are more complicated than anyone can know, so I don't speak for anyone but me. But this is what I considered this morning:
I've got two boys, who in 10 years will be considering getting married. Do I tell them, hey, it's fine to date, have sex, whatever, with anyone now; we're no longer committed to each other, we're no longer required to be faithful, because honestly the marriage ended when dad started emotionally cutting me off, and it really ended when he moved out. The rest is just a meaningless piece of paper. So don't worry, as soon as you don't feel married, you're not...go ahead, have fun, move on, you deserve to be happy.
They do deserve to be happy, but their spouses and their honor and self-respect deserve to follow the rules they signed up for, to BE in the marriage while you're in it, to make a good faith effort to FIX it when it breaks, and to at least wait until it's legally over before hooking up with someone else. That's what I think I would tell my boys, and that's what I intend to live.
I have no control over my H and I don't want him back right now, but it does feel a little unfair that he gets to find himself and seek gratification and I get to manage unruly teens, help them with laundry and cooking, keep the house up, take care of people and work 24/7. I do love what I do, but it isn't 100% fulfilling me because I want love too, eventually.
I agree 100% with what you said. I'm still married. Emotionally, spiritually & legally is all tied together for me. Whether my H continues to sleep with OP, I will honor my vows until they are legally done. Period. It's who I am. It's what I believe. And I know how devastating it is to find out the person you pledged that to, feels differently. It's a punch to the gut. The end.
Detaching is not about stuffing your feelings. To me, it's getting to a place where every action your H does, does not affect your POM. But you can't ignore these. What you ignore with multiply. I too was a stuffer. I HATE feeling my feelings. But I wantbto grow. So let's keep feeling those icky, uncomfortable feelings!!
I get being so angry!! Being the one dealing with everything, while they flit around "finding themselves". I'm lonely, I need love, attention, support, sex. But, alas, I must give these to myself & accept help from my friends & family.
You have so much strength, A! You have helped me tremendously!! I will be thinking of you today.
Great post, Ad! Especially this.
They do deserve to be happy, but their spouses and their honor and self-respect deserve to follow the rules they signed up for, to BE in the marriage while you're in it, to make a good faith effort to FIX it when it breaks, and to at least wait until it's legally over before hooking up with someone else. That's what I think I would tell my boys, and that's what I intend to live.
I've certainly had more R talks with my sons than I think I would have without this event in our lives. Our talks have been along the lines of what you've written above.
And I think out sons see that we have made mistakes, hurt, grown, worked hard on ourselves and changed and that's how you get through life.
Thanks LaBug and Tallula.
Detaching is confusing. It's not letting your WAS's actions dictate your moods and feelings. Your feelings come from your thoughts, and you control your thoughts. You can take an action personally or not and it's completely your choice, whether it was meant personally or not in the first place. But then you still have feelings, you still care, you still think your thoughts the way they are until your feelings give you a reason to analyze and modify them.
I don't like what my H is doing. I don't like that he even walked into a sex shop. I don't like that he's ogling teenagers with his ridiculous friend. I don't like that he left our family. I don't like that he won't tell me anything. BUT.
I clearly saw that something was wrong with him. He couldn't get out of bed. Anyone who had an ear would get an earful from him about property taxes, the government, gun control, kids these days, whatever his mind was mad about at the moment. He really was miserable. He was the Grumpy Old Man at age 40. He was Archie Bunker. He used to tell me his dad was like Archie Bunker. I tried understanding, I tried accommodating, I tried explaining, I tried loving, I tried arguing, I tried pleading, I tried asking for a doctor's intervention, I tried asking for counseling. There was literally nothing I could do. What I could do I did.
Once my eyes were opened by this forum and IC, I tried respecting him, I tried showing acts of love, I tried being agreeable, I tried modifying my behavior, I tried communicating better, I tried hearing his meaning in spite of his tone. These did not turn things around. There is still literally nothing I can do.
So he moves on. So he becomes promiscuous, or a lecher, or a monk. So he spends his time working out, working, watching tv. So what. It is all his to figure out. He will date, I know that. He will probably date someone he's had his eye on for a long time. He will probably think all his problems would have never come about if he had been with her and not with me. Whatever. He will think all kinds of things and they may in fact be correct.
All I can do I'm doing. It still hurts sometimes.
It does still hurt, truer words were never spoken.
I think it always hurts, even when you've truly moved on, you get the pangs of "Why wasn't I good enough"? Of course we know we were good enough and we know the parts we played in the failure of our relationships, but every once in a while it surfaces.
Ad, you are entitled to be loved and wanted and cherished. Never forget it. All spouses who walk think if only evil LBS had been better, this wouldn't have happened. Whether or not they finally take responsibility for their own actions is up to them, not us. And sometimes, I truly believe, that people cannot move forward if they stay together. I do not discount starting again with Spouse, but sometimes I think they have to know what they are leaving to know what they actually had.
And sometimes, we are done, by the time they realize that.
Hugs AD, you are an amazing woman
Ok, let's roleplay. What do you think I would ask and what would be the useful point of it?
QuestionA: Hey H, I noticed a $250 charge at ___ Couples Boutique when I was going through the credit card statements. That's not mine, was it yours?
Answer1: Yes.
Answer2: Yes, so?
Answer3: No, OMG someone stole our identity and went one time to a sex shop!!!! I will take care of that right now. Can't believe I didn't see it on the statement before. [kidding. not a likely answer.]
Answer4: Oh, yeah, I'm feeling very frustrated with our long separation and just needed some self-entertainment, but I consider that private so it's really not information I was going to share with you. [I'm really stretching for an alternate answer. I couldn't imagine him saying this.]
Answer5: Yes. It was for my new girlfriend. We are separated after all, and it's none of your business.
POINT: I have no idea. I get no peace of mind from answers 1 or 2. I don't really want to know answer 5. I'm not sure I want to know answer 4. and 3 was a joke.
QuestionB: Hey H, I was hurt to see that you spent $250 at ___ Couples Boutique when I was going through the credit card statements. Would you mind telling me why you spent family money at this place?
Answer1: I set our financial separation date as 9/2012 and the agreement specified how much money we move around to make it equitable, so what I spend my money on now is not family money and not your business.
Answer2: No, I don't have to tell you anything about that.
Answer3: It's my money, and that's none of your business.
POINT: Again, not sure what I'm expecting to gain from this. Let him know I feel hurt (um, so what?), let him know I'm examining his purchase (so he stops showing me the card statements? I think he's closing that card anyway, once our recurring charges have all been moved to my own card), let him know I'm judging how he spends his money (family money?). Trying to make him feel bad? Trying to make him feel bad will make him feel LESS bad, and more justified.
QuestionC: Hey H, what was that $250 charge at ___ Couples Boutique? Are you seeing someone?
Answer1: Yes. And that's none of your business.
Answer2: Yes, I'm in love and having the best sex of my life, but don't worry I don't plan to get married again so I'm not going to push you on getting a divorce or anything.
Answer3: No. [most likely answer] "well was that your charge?" Yes. "well what was it for" Stuff I was buying. "what stuff?" I don't need to tell you anything about that. [usually I don't press him with follow up questions but he usually can shut down a conversation with one word answers and grunts. When pushed to the wall he will tell me I'm on a need to know basis.]
POINT: would it be to confirm or deny that he's seeing someone? I don't see that as relevant in my sitch. my sitch is longstanding and little movement due to many factors - I think he's depressed, I think he's taken all of his emotion out of the marriage and placed it elsewhere for YEARS, I think he's having a MLC, and if he's in a relationship with someone that's just another cube on the iceberg. If he's not seeing someone and the charge was nothing meaningful and he was buying $250 worth of his favorite porno magazines does that make me feel better about my sitch? no....
Reasons not to ask about it:
1. It is a small point of information in a huge database of things wrong with my marriage. Dealing with this one point does less good than harm. I should forget about it.
2. It looks as if I am snooping and I am not. I'll admit when I scoured those bills to find my work charges that I need to pay him back for, my eye was attracted to charges in Hawaii, LA, etc, places he stopped en route to working overseas so quite explainable and worth only a split second of attention. I tried not to be looking for "evidence" but there was an element of that that was hard to suppress.
3. It will cause him to be defensive, to have an unpleasant interaction with me, to feel like he needs to justify, and to reinforce to me that I should have no hope or expectations with him. It's been a while since he needed to remind me of that.
What good would it do to ask?
1. If the charge was completely innocuous, mere self-entertainment (which I still begrudge since I just paid that much out of my limited funds for S15's new cleats and dress clothes, and that much again for S15's summer lax league, and that much again for S15's pay-to-play school athletic fee and birthday dinner) - oops that was a long parenthetical - will I feel peace of mind that we're both just two hurting people trying to comfort ourselves through a difficult time? Um, I MIGHT. But I can feel that peace of mind without asking him about that credit card charge too.
2. If asking about the charge reveals that he has moved on and has a girlfriend perhaps this gives me the reality check needed to detach and move on myself. POSSIBLE but not likely. I view a new girlfriend as like I said, a cube on the iceberg. I'm still here DBing and plan to do that, to be a woman only a fool would leave, to keep the road home paved and smooth. On the day my divorce papers come finalized, I will turn the page and move along, if I feel like it then. If I'm beginning to connect with H by then I'll be open to continuing to DB, but that's IF.
3. To "express" my hurt and disapproval. Well, I'm all about respecting my feelings and giving voice to them, and dealing with them out in the open, but with moderation and awareness of what reaction they may provoke. I've given my H enough of my hurt and disapproval I think. I told him two times that I thought divorce was wrong and what he was doing was wrong. I told him one time how very much hurt and anger I felt at the way he let me know he was done only AFTER he was no longer willing to work with me on the marriage. I don't need to keep coming back to that, and that's not going to help me any to keep smacking him with it.
So, what am I missing? Still see any point in not letting this issue drop?
I've got two boys, who in 10 years will be considering getting married. Do I tell them, hey, it's fine to date, have sex, whatever, with anyone now; we're no longer committed to each other, we're no longer required to be faithful, because honestly the marriage ended when dad started emotionally cutting me off, and it really ended when he moved out. The rest is just a meaningless piece of paper. So don't worry, as soon as you don't feel married, you're not...go ahead, have fun, move on, you deserve to be happy.
They do deserve to be happy, but their spouses and their honor and self-respect deserve to follow the rules they signed up for, to BE in the marriage while you're in it, to make a good faith effort to FIX it when it breaks, and to at least wait until it's legally over before hooking up with someone else. That's what I think I would tell my boys, and that's what I intend to live.
Great insight and perspective Advina!
I read this a little earlier and it really resonated with me. I have S16,S14,S8 and have struggled with how I will explain things to them when the time comes to have that conversation comes. Your summary is very concise and easy to communicate - thanks for sharing it.
For my situation, I would also consider adding in something like "... you can only control your own actions and are ultimately accountable for yourself - spiritually, emotionally and legally so make sure that you are always striving to be the best man/husband/friend that you can possibly be...."
Thoughts and prayers are with you in your situation. Thanks for sharing your story.
Thank you SemperFi. How are your teens doing with this? My 12yo seems just fine taking whatever attention he gets from my WAH and not thinking too much about what's going on. My 15yo seems hurt, angry, and like he is trying very hard to appear like he doesn't care.
I can teach them to handle life's curveballs with grace, but I don't know how I'm going to teach them not to throw these curveballs themselves when they hit 40.
Yeah, it doesn't really seem like asking him will do anything for you. The biggest thing in your sitch, is that you are hurt. Telling him that won't do anything. He isn't going to say he is sorry, he isn't going to comfort you. BTW- #3...I spit my coffee at my screen. HILARIOUS!
The only reason I just recently asked my H if he was still seeing OW when I saw a bday card from her, is that my H told me he wasn't going to date during our S. See, my H still tells me he loves me, that I'm hot, still tries to sleep with me (seriously, he tried to put the moves on me last night. I think he done lost his mind!!) So, for me, it was to clear it up, put it out there that I know and will be acting accordingly. I didn't tell him I was hurt, just give me the facts. Now, if I see more proof, no need to say a thing.
It hurts. I'd be more concerned about you if it didn't.
Yeah T, it makes sense that you'd need to call your H out on the fact that he is seeing OW when he specifically said that was not part of what he'd be using the separation for. If he's going to try to be sneaky and cover stuff up then your separation isn't accomplishing what either of you thought it would, and being upfront is better IMO.
My H and I have no such agreement, he was conclusive that we were done and has never given me any indication at all that there was any hope of reconciling, and we have been progressing very slowly but with no signs of wavering, toward divorce. So what he's up to in the meantime is really not meaningful even if it hurts to think about.
Hey AnotherStander I picked on what you said about marriage even though I found it quite valuable and worth discussing and very good feedback. I'm going to pick on something else you said:
The LBS cannot control the estranged WAS, they have ZERO control or influence over them. The LBS can set boundaries, but can't enforce them, because they have no M to enforce them through.
That's not what boundaries are, not what their for, and it doesn't take a marriage or even any commitment or interest on the other person's part, to have a boundary.
As the LBS I can say I don't think we should see other people while we're separated. If my spouse disagrees, we don't have an agreement, he just knows my opinion. If I say, I don't want you to see other people while we're separated and if you do, I will stop interacting with you except about the kids. That's a boundary, and the enforcement is what I WILL DO to protect myself if my boundary is breached. A marriage is not for enforcing boundaries IMO. Just because we were married didn't stop my H from getting emotionally attached outside the marriage, and when he did that I had every right and a responsibility to set a boundary that if I felt hurt and disconnected because of certain behaviors I would do something - go to counseling myself, consider separating, whatever. I did not set or even know I could set a boundary like that or enforce it, and our marriage disintegrated. Even in a healthy marriage, people need to have boundaries and enforce them all by themselves. A marriage is not a boundary enforcer.
Thank you SemperFi. How are your teens doing with this? My 12yo seems just fine taking whatever attention he gets from my WAH and not thinking too much about what's going on. My 15yo seems hurt, angry, and like he is trying very hard to appear like he doesn't care.
S14 I think feels stuck and tries to defend both us - just wants everything back like it used to be. Most heartbreaking thing for me was when we drove by the hotel I stayed at for a few months and he commented that he was glad that I was back at home - no 14 y/o should have had to experience that set of emotions IMHO.
S16 quiet and reserved and tries to avoid anything related to the situation. has made a couple of comments like "... M just seems angry and frustrated all the time." also sometimes says to her occasionally ".... calm down woman....". Inappropriate and it often gets a strong reaction from her which I think is what he wants. Sometimes he seems to be kidding and sometimes not. Even says same comment to me at times. Similar to your, I think that he is trying to appear like he doesn't care and no impact.
S8 seems oblivious for the most part. his world still mostly the same (tuck him in bed each night together, etc...). Diagnosed w/severe apraxia so consistent routines are incredibly important for him and he doesn't speak that much of very clearly. a little tougher to judge how he's doing but given his learning challenges (and the fact that he has already been displaced from 1 household) I am very concerned about this situation could impact him.
GAL is hard for kids also I guess! Why can the WAS not recognize and open their heart to working on things???? Oh yeah - forgot, the MLC fog I guess.
I can teach them to handle life's curveballs with grace, but I don't know how I'm going to teach them not to throw these curveballs themselves when they hit 40.
Great point! Teaching to handle with grace and focus on what they have the most control over is he best learning we can provide for now.
How not to throw the curveball is the $1M question right? I keep telling myself that as much as is stinks for the LBS and others, this has to also be gut-wrenching and guilt ridden for the WAS.
Maybe we'll still be around when kids reach 40 and can share this website and a gentle 2x4.
Seems like you have been doing a great job throughout your journey. Keep the faith and keep posting.
I'm married until I'm divorced. It's simpler for me, and it feels right, and I pledged myself, my heart and my life, to a commitment to marriage.
I understand what you're saying, but personally when I hear people say things like this it makes me think they're clinging to something that no longer exists, and that it may be keeping them from detaching and moving forward. The point I was trying to make (and perhaps didn't make too well) is that your old marriage really is dead and gone. As Michele says in DR, what you should be striving for is not a restoration of your old marriage, but building a new relationship and marriage moving forward. Your spouse doesn't want to go back to the old M, and you shouldn't either. Admitting to yourself that your M is dead does not mean going out and having sex all over the place. It just means acknowledging that the only way forward is to forge a new path WITH OR WITHOUT your H.
Do I tell them, hey, it's fine to date, have sex, whatever, with anyone now; we're no longer committed to each other, we're no longer required to be faithful, because honestly the marriage ended when dad started emotionally cutting me off, and it really ended when he moved out.
That's not the point. The point is it only takes one spouse to end a marriage, and they end it long before a D paper is ever issued. What you can tell your sons is this: "Sons, let this serve as a lesson to you. Do not ever put your marriage on autopilot. Do not ever assume your marriage can survive anything. Do not ever assume that your marriage is fine and needs no work. Because what I have learned from what happened between your father and me is that marriage takes consistent, hard, faithful work to maintain. It takes a serious commitment to stay in constant communication with your spouse so that you know not just how you feel about the M, but how they feel about it too. Because when you quit knowing or caring about your spouse's feelings, then your spouse will wall themselves off and begin the end of your M, and you cannot stop them. So view your M not as static but dynamic, you will have to change, grow and adapt to keep it strong."
The rest is just a meaningless piece of paper. So don't worry, as soon as you don't feel married, you're not...go ahead, have fun, move on, you deserve to be happy.
That's exactly what your H (and society) is teaching them. You need to teach them a different view. You need to teach them that it's NOT about the paper. But...
to BE in the marriage while you're in it, to make a good faith effort to FIX it when it breaks, and to at least wait until it's legally over before hooking up with someone else. That's what I think I would tell my boys, and that's what I intend to live.
...they are going to be more inclined to follow your H's model than yours. Unfortunately that's just the way life is. Sons model their dads, daughters model their moms. So do the best you can, but understand that you can't force their destinies.
Don't ask. That's not detachment.
You mentioned that getting an answer will help you move on and give you a reality check.
Why?
You don't need him to help you make that decision. Moving on (or as I like to say moving forward) is a step you take for YOU.. not H.
You can still DB
You can still keep the road home paved and smooth
You can still firmly stand for your M
Moving forward isn't about giving up.. It's about giving hope to yourself. It's about opening yourself up to all this life has to offer YOU.
Oh Valeska (hi!) I was trying to think of what on earth people would be telling me to ask him for. I wasn't planning on asking him. People were telling me I was going to obsess and that I wasn't detached enough, and that my imagination was going wild. So for mental exercise I tried to verbalize some reasons I could think of why they'd be telling me I should ask him about the charge.
I don't think I should. I was wondering why they did. Those were all the reasons I could think of, and they weren't compelling to me.
I'm going to give it as much importance as if he bought $250 worth of chewing gum and the only store open happened to be the ___ Couples Boutique. And forget about it and keep on doing what I'm doing.
Which isn't much when it comes down to my marriage. I'm trying to coparent with him, I'm trying to appear confident and attractive around him with some mixed results because I'm also dealing with some very heavy stuff, and as far as acting like I'll be fine without him that is not an act at all. I actually am fine right now and will continue to be fine.
AnotherStander, I don't see how you can suggest that someone who is in the process but not completed with a legal divorce is clinging to something that no longer exists. Why such a rush to move on that you'd be willing to move on before it's even legally over? I guess to me the piece of paper is important in addition to the emotional and spiritual marriage; it's a contract I agreed to and it's not over. And if we all stopped trying as soon as our spouse severed the emotional and spiritual bonds...well there would be no divorcebusting. We'd all already be done.
I still have as much if not more worth salvaging with my H right now than with hypothetical future guys. What a wonderful example it would be for our kids if we were able to learn to resolve conflict together, learn to reignite our relationship, and mature into a better marriage than before. Even if, as 25 is finding out, they're not ecstatic that we saved our marriage, it is an incredible lesson in working through life's challenges.
It is time consuming to get a divorce. First of all my state requires a one year waiting period when there are kids involved. Presumably that's because it's bad to make a rush decision to break up a kid's family. If we pay lip service to that by moving on during that period that's a missed opportunity to take some time and think and work on things.
Now we need to get an agreement together that tells how we'll divide up the property, the money, and the kids, and who will pay what to whom going forward. We don't have that finished so we run into my issue that my H is somehow spending family money on sex toys, and my concerns over who should be paying for summer camp and team fees. We have a lot to think about and negotiate. That I'm not seeking a new relationship does not mean I'm clinging to the old one, I'm just not out of the old one yet.
And finally, we need to file, go to court, and undo our marriage contract, at which point we're both legally single people and our property and money is clearly set apart. I'm planning on inviting H to start this process as soon as our separation agreement is done, and if he doesn't feel motivated to do it in a month or so I'll file myself. He has told me before he has no interest or timeframe or hurry to be divorced, that part he said didn't matter to him, he really was mostly interested in the financial separation. I don't understand that, but there's a lot I don't understand about things he says and does.
Once the divorce is done I will continue the life I've already been living, which is full and fulfilling, but I'll also be open to activities that might lead to a new relationship.
The fact that I'm doing things in this order, IMO, in no way suggests that I'm clinging to something that no longer exists. In fact I don't think I'm clinging to anything at all. I'm living through a long and painful process which might or might go any number of different ways, none of which we can predict.
For me, the marriage I am in actually DOES exist while the paper is in effect. It's in deep trouble and hasn't shown any signs yet of turning around, but don't start throwing dirt on it yet. It's not the marriage I used to have, which is dead, and it's not the marriage I want, which is hypothetical, but it legally exists until I'm released from my contract. And until then, well, I'm working on it in the only way that might be effective, by working on myself.
^^^^^AMEN^^^^^^^
I'm still married. Clearly my H has a different idea of marriage, in that he can have a R with someone other than me. But, that doesn't change how I feel about what being married means.
"Sons, let this serve as a lesson to you. Do not ever put your marriage on autopilot. Do not ever assume your marriage can survive anything. Do not ever assume that your marriage is fine and needs no work. Because what I have learned from what happened between your father and me is that marriage takes consistent, hard, faithful work to maintain. It takes a serious commitment to stay in constant communication with your spouse so that you know not just how you feel about the M, but how they feel about it too. Because when you quit knowing or caring about your spouse's feelings, then your spouse will wall themselves off and begin the end of your M, and you cannot stop them. So view your M not as static but dynamic, you will have to change, grow and adapt to keep it strong."
Sometimes the timing of the comments seems eerie..... Driving in to work this morning I was just thinking about ow to explain to my boys what happened and what I would say to encourage them at some point in the future when they were older - and then ran across these comments.
AS & adinva, thanks for sharing!
The longer I've been working on me the more I seem to uncover that I can improve within me.
The process gets easier, sometimes it's actually fun because now I enjoy life so much more.
This work has also helped me deepen my R with my sons, I've gone from the controlling, fearful, rule bound mom to one they can share things with, one they want to go places with, one they seek out for advice.
I, too am married until the courts tell me I'm not. I'm not clinging to anything but rather respecting the vows I took. I made a mistake once of not respecting them and at that time recommitted to "from this day forward."
ad,
I fully understand your honoring of the legal contract aspect of a M - I agree with that. I also understand your aggravation over the $250 - I'd be absolutely furious. Like you, I would most likely not make any comments about it as there would simply be no positive resolution.
He has told me before he has no interest or timeframe or hurry to be divorced, that part he said didn't matter to him, he really was mostly interested in the financial separation.
The questions below are mostly rhetorical...
I can't say I understand this at all. Does he know how you feel about your definition of M? Obviously you care if there's OW involved. Would he care if you had OM? What's the point being in a big hurry for financial separation if you're not going to follow thru with actual divorce?
Makes no sense.
I know, right?
This was mentioned twice during exploratory conversations we had while out walking on Saturday mornings. One was when our taxes came up and whether we'd file jointly or separately, and what the rules were, and I asked him if he had a timeframe or idea of when he wanted to be divorced and he said he didn't care about that, mostly just the separation agreement. On another occasion I apologized because my convention coinciding with my mom's grave illness had really set back my time available to think about responding to the draft separation agreement and I'd need more time if he would allow it, and he indicated that it was ok and he was not in a hurry.
Anyway, lack of hurry then doesn't indicate anything about where he is now, really. I just know he's not asking me to hurry up, at this point.
Ad, I so relate with so many of your feelings right now.
My husband said yet again, just a week ago: "We are not married. Our marriage ended when I left. I broke up with you. You are delusional if you think we are still married. It's just a piece of paper." He was done the moment he walked out the door and in his mind, we were over. (The ironic part is that the very next day he sent me our tax return docs and asked me to "please sign on the line that says 'spouse" - lol...)
So no, it's not dead and we have to deal with some very practical aspects of it everyday.
Like most who come to this site, to me it's not just a piece of paper, even after over 2 years of separation and even when my H has never shown any signs of doubt or wavering. Yes, it's not the marriage we had and it's not what I want either, but I reserve the right to not give up on it until we finalize the D and even then, I might not give up on the R either.
Ad, like you, I want to teach my children that marriage is not just a R that you can just end when you feel like giving up or "breaking up" like my H said. I want them to understand how it's different from just having a boyfriend or girlfriend... You respect the vows you made. It was a sacred promise based on our religion and our value system and that has to be important if I am raising my kids with those values as well. To me, you finish what you started and then you move on. I want my children to know that if they are not willing or don't believe in keeping their promises and their word in a M, then it's better to remain single and date all your life.
From a very practical POV, it's also a legal contract we signed and that we need to honor if we want to be people of their word, people who are honorable and well - if we want to act according to the law. Otherwise, why make promises or commitments of any kind, with anyone? Why sign any document or contract?
I understand now that my H doesn't see M the same way I do, but exactly how AS broke it down. I always thought we saw M the same way, but realize now that we never really talked about it. It was just an assumption from my end and clearly a wrong one. I learned the hard way when my H started dating just 4 weeks after he walked out of our then 18-year relationship. Yes, that hurts.
Re. asking about the sex-shop charge... I did that. Doesn't do any good. Like you, we still don't have a finished financial agreement, so personal vs. family monies are still not clearly defined. Yes, I am upset that he spends what I view as our kids' money on OW - it really, really hurts, (specially when he has been unemployed for 6 months and we are currently operating with only a 3-month cash reserve), but his response is that it's none of my business, that I have no right to ask or snoop and that he can spend his money however he wants. I suspect your H might respond similarly, like you listed in your scenarios above.
It's out of my control and the only thing I can do, is accelerate finalizing the separation of assets and money so he doesn't spend what would be for our kids on OW.
Ad, you are so right - this all hurts, we are human and we need to learn to deal with those hurts in a healthy way and not act out on them or stuff them in like we used to do. I don't need to tell you any of that - you get all that. As always, you are doing an amazing job of digging deep and being honest about your intentions and feelings and acting according to what you see as right.
I just want to send you a big hug because I know this all hurts - deeply.
Yes, this is hard...
(((((Ad))))))
Thanks KG it's hard, but I respect myself and that's important to me; I do what I think is right.
Ad -
Sorry I didn't realize you were asking a rhetorical question... my bad.
I get you wanting to teach your sons something - so take this next comment/question from someone who has no experience raising a child.
But are you just teaching them or do you believe it to be true yourself?
Are you honoring your marriage because of the legal contract part of it or the promise to love for better or worse?
I DO believe the latter to be true for you in both questions ^^^^ but you did mention that signing a document would be "the end" for you.. so I'd thought I'd ask.
FWIW - it doesn't end when the Divorce is final. I don't have any connection, children, friends, or whatever with my exw.....
... and I still uphold my vows.
I uphold them every time someone wants to talk sh!t on her. I uphold them when she did weird stuff. Mostly I uphold them in my heart that when life gets tough and I am looking to blame my sitch..
As they say - it's never really over.
I, too am married until the courts tell me I'm not. I'm not clinging to anything but rather respecting the vows I took. I made a mistake once of not respecting them and at that time recommitted to "from this day forward."
I like the way you put this and agree with those who are sharing the same sentiment. My old marriage is dead and I have no desire to go back to it, but that doesn't mean I'm quitting on my W just because the forecast is grim. This is what led me to the decision to NOT take my ring off until the D is final. I wear it for what it says about me, even if I am not a member of a "real" marriage where the spouse reciprocates my commitment.
-tmd
Doh! Posted this on the wrong thread, moving it here. Sorry!
Adinva,
Re: the sex shop charge -- I didn't mean to set off such a big debate. I've been following your thread since the beginning and I've noticed that like me, you have a tendency to play chess in your head with your relationships. My suggestion is that if you "just ask" you can usually instantly confirm or refute your initial assumption and that can save you a lot of time and angst.
For instance, when you were traveling for work and H was texting you pictures of drug paraphernalia, etc., you assumed that he was doing that to antagonize you and you got upset about H's perceived motivations as a result. He may have been antagonizing you, or he may not have known what to do and lacked the skills to solicit your help in a more productive way.
When you went to the family gathering over the holidays, your SiL did not give you the support you expected, so you assumed that she didn't care about you or had written you off in some way. At the time I suggested you just talk to her because she might not even know about your sitch or how you felt about it. You posted a bunch of angst here over that relationship, but when you then talked to her, you had a very positive experience and discovered that your initial assumptions were off.
I know I do this too, and it helps when people point it out to me, so I'm trying to help you the way that I like to be helped and maybe that is misguided.
Rather than making a big deal about the details about the sex shop charge, I should have made the more general statement that a policy of "just ask" is probably going to help before you go down the road of "...and that means he thinks X, and that means he's going to do Y, and that means I should feel Z." Going down these paths wreak havoc on our emotions and if it's based in an initial misunderstanding, then its good for nothing.
In this case, no, I don't think you should ask H now because you've already gone through the emotional turmoil over it and you're probably right that "it speaks for itself". It's more in the moment that you see it, before you start down the "this means.." road, ask about it. If you can ask in a nonchalant way "hey, I'm just going through these statements you gave me, what's this charge about?". If there's a 100% chance it's going to upset you with no explanation, and a 2% chance that his explanation may avoid the pain, then it's probably worth asking, that's all. No need to role play, no need to work out the next three moves, just ask a simple question and see what he says. If you get a non-answer are you worse off? That's what you had already, but now you're not making assumptions without giving the other party a chance.
In my sitch way back when, I found an e-mail W had sent to OM saying something like "I hope you enjoyed your birthday, you asked for what you wanted and you got it." Naturally I assumed the worst possible interpretation of that and it literally tortured me for days. When I finally asked her about it, she obviously didn't know what the heck I was talking about. She was truly surprised and had no memory of it. It turns out, it was referring to the fact that he asked for a chocolate cake to celebrate his birthday at work and the office manager had gotten one for him. I guess he was hesitant to suggest it and W had encouraged him which lead to the e-mail. I was able to confirm this at the time with a third party. When I see people heading down that road based on seemingly damning scraps of information, I'm compelled to try to say WAIT! make sure you confirm before you ride the roller coaster to the bottom.
WRT how you're feeling about this, boy do I get it! There are fewer things more painful than seeing your spouse open up to someone else in a way that they won't open up to you. My W throughout our marriage has denied me the opportunity to delight her, and has avoided emotional intimacy at all costs. I assumed "that's who she was" and figured that what I was getting was what she was capable of giving. With OM, she was extremely emotionally intimate, and was lobbing him softball opportunities to delight her. When we started reconciling I thought "Great! She's in touch with this new side of herself that we can use to improve our marriage!" Wrong -- what she offered to the OM she shut right down again in returning to our marriage.
My MC said what people put forward in affairs isn't "real". They don't have the emotional capacity to sustain it. It is only the context of the affair that allows it to come out. i.e. the women you witness your H being affectionate with would be no better off than you are if they were in a long term relationship with H, because the *real* H is the one you see, not the one they see.
I don't know if that helps or not, but I'm very familiar with the pain you feel over this particular incident, and I'm very sorry you're going through it. At this point I do think you should let it drop.
Accuray
ad - I love your definition and view of marriage. I was shocked to find out how many people view a marriage differently, including my W. Like everyone else, I see no value in you dwelling over the "Sex shop" incident.
Accuracy - Your statment "My W throughout our marriage has denied me the opportunity to delight her, and has avoided emotional intimacy at all costs" describes my W to a tee. I have the same feelings and appreciate your insight.
Thanks Acc, you know me, why say a line when I can write a book?
Not enough time went by for all that you think I went through though. I was going through the statements on my computer, saw it, posted it here within seconds, waited for the replies I knew would encourage and help me to put it in perspective and let it go, and here we are. So I was really interested in figuring out why anyone thought it would be a good idea to ask H about it.
The main difference between us is that your w is still in the marriage and my h is not. So suspicions and misinterpretations and extended angst are really not appropriate to my sitch. The umbrella under which all the details fall is Fact #1: He does not want to be with me. If he claimed to, and appeared to be still in the marriage, and I found something like that it would have to be cleared up and discussed.
I think you give me too much credit for being a chess player. In my relationships I might have felt a little bit of hurt before smothering it in rationalizations, whats-the-points, and I'm-happy-anyways. My needs and feelings always came dead last if anywhere on the scale at all. So identifying a feeling, giving it words and measuring it, and figuring out the best way to deal with it, is a very important new skill I'm trying to exercise here. I know you guys don't want me to feel any pain at all and to skip right past it, but actually that's not good for me to do.
With my SIL, I felt pain and disappointment, prepared to write her off as I would have done, re-evaluated, realized I could be active instead of passive, took action and was pleased with the result on several levels. The primary pleasure I get from it is the realization that I'm not a bit player in my relationships, I can decide to make something of them. Everything is not just done TO me.
With my H's naughty charge, I felt pain and anger, considered the extent and scope of it, and the relative merits of doing anything about it, and opted to forget about it. But skipping to forget about it is what I used to do. This is better, for me.
VAL: I want to teach it because I believe it. I don't act as if anymore. But I do want a loving relationship with a real person who I can share my life with, so when the divorce is final I'll pick up my cards and move on. Each person has to decide what's right and what they believe given their own unique sitch.
My beliefs have changed since this started, and probably will continue to evolve. There's a lot less black and white than I used to think.
Rock, it's a little easier to stand for your marriage when you thought it was pretty good and got left.
I was as shocked as you when my H dropped the bomb. He was the most loyal friend I ever saw, the most dedicated son, I thought family was #1 to him. He had a strict code of honor. He prided himself on being a good guy. He was a practical guy, never flighty, supremely confident, strong, straight and true.
I think he thinks he did everything he could. From my view I don't know what he really tried. I saw that he tried to stuff his feelings, never said a word until it burst out as snark and nitpicking, just stopped talking at all, and started staying in bed all the time. He even went to counseling, claiming it wouldn't work - surprise it didn't work. I believe that my H believes he had NO OTHER CHOICE because he was so desperately unhappy. As demonized as he made me, I'm sure that the girl from band nights was a refreshing change, someone who understood him like I didn't, appreciated him like I wouldn't, who dressed up to go out and made herself look pretty for him while I was home stressed out with babies. I'm sure anyone who appreciated the things he could do, was a breath of fresh air to him. I think he thought he would die in our relationship and he had to get out to survive. Or something that extreme. Because if you asked him before, he would have told you his views about marriage were that it's forever, you work at it, it's not all supposed to be rosy and rainbows, the people who don't make it work were just unrealistic and not committed enough. You would not recognize that guy now.
Someone close to me left her family thinking she might harm them if she stayed, or herself, she was so unhappy. My college roommate left a "perfectly good husband" because she felt being with him was the cause of her severe depression and she couldn't see a way she could stay with him and survive. A friend who married young left her H in the first year because she felt she'd made a terrible mistake; she remarried later and had kids and is much happier. People's convictions have a way of changing when they feel like they're actually going to die. Nothing is as black and white to me as I used to think.
Adinva,
WRT to the sex shopping, OUCH!!! I feel for you. Doesn't completely matter that you thought the marriage was probably over, you were still in it, fighting for it. He's not. And That hurts.
I think ONE piece of it makes me believe you have a bit of leverage, though I hate putting it that way. My point is, your h is rigid in his belief systems and his "zero tolerance" to many things HE did not partake of. But he's also a hypocrite b/c you are still legally married and if I recall correctly, he never told you he was going to date b/c he does not feel married. Or did I mis read that?
I think kids pick up on our hypocrisies, btw. Makes them have less respect for us or our beliefs and I have to wonder about your s15 and his views of his dad...just Food for thought...
Thanks Acc, you know me, why say a line when I can write a book?
Not enough time went by for all that you think I went through though. I was going through the statements on my computer, saw it, posted it here within seconds, waited for the replies I knew would encourage and help me to put it in perspective and let it go, and here we are. So I was really interested in figuring out why anyone thought it would be a good idea to ask H about it.
Only as it relates to the hypocrisy...and your son. And maybe if your h cares at all about how they view HIM, he might see that this isn't the behavior of a man who is a good upright guy. He spent more on some OW than he did on his 2 sons. NOT COOL, NOT MORAL...so much for his zero tolerance. Guess that increases for HIS behaviors...hence the charge of hypocrisy.
The main difference between us is that your w is still in the marriage and my h is not. So suspicions and misinterpretations and extended angst are really not appropriate to my sitch. The umbrella under which all the details fall is Fact #1: He does not want to be with me. If he claimed to, and appeared to be still in the marriage, and I found something like that it would have to be cleared up and discussed.
I think you give me too much credit for being a chess player. In my relationships I might have felt a little bit of hurt before smothering it in rationalizations, whats-the-points, and I'm-happy-anyways.
My needs and feelings always came dead last if anywhere on the scale at all.
two thoughts/emotions leap to my mind when I read this^^....first, I'm so sad. Second, I'm so hopeful for your future. Interesting contrasting emotions.
So identifying a feeling, giving it words and measuring it, and figuring out the best way to deal with it, is a very important new skill I'm trying to exercise here. I know you guys don't want me to feel any pain at all and to skip right past it, but actually that's not good for me to do.
Check out my thread later...about "Carol" a woman who has taught me a lot about life and pain. You're right. You cannot skip past the pain. You have to get through it, and process it. Just don't wallow and I don't see you doing that.
With my SIL, I felt pain and disappointment, prepared to write her off as I would have done, re-evaluated, realized I could be active instead of passive, took action and was pleased with the result on several levels. The primary pleasure I get from it is the realization that I'm not a bit player in my relationships, I can decide to make something of them. Everything is not just done TO me.
the deeper and more meaningful your connections with others, the better and richer your life will be. You're on the right road.
With my H's naughty charge, I felt pain and anger, considered the extent and scope of it, and the relative merits of doing anything about it, and opted to forget about it. But skipping to forget about it is what I used to do. This is better, for me.
VAL: I want to teach it because I believe it. I don't act as if anymore. But I do want a loving relationship with a real person who I can share my life with, so when the divorce is final I'll pick up my cards and move on. Each person has to decide what's right and what they believe given their own unique sitch.
I can't wait for that to happen!!
My beliefs have changed since this started, and probably will continue to evolve. There's a lot less black and white than I used to think.
Boy is this^^ wisdom!! Yes, life's not nearly as black and white as I once thought/hoped it was.
I was wrong to be so rigig. I'm HAPPIER with a little gray. It complicates things at first, but it gives me some room for flexibililty and growth.
Re your son's pot use. My views would be controversial to some here. I have a legal opinion, a mother's view, a former partier's attitude, and a wife in a marriage in which my h does not totally share my views.
However, neither h nor I believe the act of smoking pot is wrong, except that it is illegal. Like going thru a red light at 2 am when no one is there...no cars, plenty of visibility...and you go through it. You can still get a ticket....it's still illegal. But is it "immoral"?
As a lawyer, I think the drug laws are mostly insane. I've seen young people who share a joint and are charged with "distribution" so you need to tell your son that.
OTOH, I see people doing an essential amoral act (ie smoking the leaf of a plant) that are called criminals and housed with burglars and rapists and killers...the Drug War is an abysmal failure and it does harm.
As for pot use "causing" heroin use, I reject that. To quote the late William F Buckley, (the conservative intellectual who was the editor of the National Review & OPPOSED the laws against marijuana use),
"saying that smoking pot causes heroin use b/c most heroin addicts smoked pot before, is like saying that masturbation causes rape, b/c most rapists have masturbated."
Sorry for the graphic quote but I think he makes a good point.
Yes I smoked pot in high school. My father was a raging alcoholic in a high government job. He was one person in the day but another person at night.
(My father died from liver cancer, related to alcohol abuse).
I smoked then to escape a chaotic home life, and it helped. I played varsity sports (no drug tests back then. It probably would have affected my choices about pot but I can't say for sure).
I was president of my class too. So, not exactly a "stoner".
My s26 and I spoke of pot last night and man did I get an earful.
I mentioned some of your sitch to him. The first thing he said was "adults and DARE, LIED to us about pot, among other things they lied about."
(That made me think of your son learning of your h's new friend...)
S26 said that your son, b/c of your h, "just can't smoke pot in that house...period." S said [b]he'd worry that your h might try to force your son away OR try to get custody and if it were him, though he'd "hate that dad", he'd stop smoking if it meant no problems for his mom and custody...but not b/c he thinks it's wrong. And not permanently"
S26 did smoke in high school but then,(not in our house) and they also did not drug test. So no penalty would occur about sports. At the time I told him "you know I smoked in high school/college. But today, I have a law license and your dad has a medical license and we cannot have it in our home...not b/c it's morally wrong but b/c it's not legal and the laws are harsh on this. Right or wrong, that's how it is." S26 said then and now that he understood this and that it was a "necessary rule" and that he lived by it. I believe him.
Son won the state wrestling championship, twice. Also won "best actor" award in the school district. Also got perfect SATs. So although he smoked in high school, he still excelled. Got into a great university and graduated with honors.
So my question is how is YOUR son doing in school? Is pot affecting him? IF so, how? Like you, I worry about losing ambition but cannot say it has come to be an issue in our family.
And can you see why your son might want to escape any part of his life?
My d23 also smoked some in high school, but more so in college. She too graduated with honors from a good college. She never did harder drugs and btw, neither did I.)
I'm one of 9 kids. 8 of us tried pot, or smoked it somewhat often to very often. (Only one of us smoke it as an adult, but it's a rarity and no, it's not me).
We each put ourselves through college w/o help from my father. 4 of us are lawyers, 3 are nurses, 1 is a teacher and the other is a diplomat. Smoking pot did not ruin our lives.
I think your h's "zero tolerance" policy, along with his adulterous behavior MIGHT be something your son suspects. I know at that age, my dad's hypocrisy drove me nuts. It infuriated me.
But as I said to my kids when they were in high school, "you can't get caught w/it b/c you'll get arrested and that will limit your options, at least in the short run. You can't drive with it or be in the car with others who are high or drunk, b/c it's not safe OR morally okay OR legal...and you can't do it in our home." To my knowledge, they followed those rules.
You cannot control what your son does outside the home. But I think losing his Lacrosse playing time is something that might affect him.
Please do NOT increase the risk to yourself by calling the other parents about your home being the place for using drugs. If you don't want them over again, tell your son that.
Is your son a ringleader or the dealer?
If not, why would you invite that legal vulnerability onto you now? And it does risk your custody arrangements.
If you feel the need, then share your concerns with the parents you can reach. (You'll be sorely disappointed in the "quality" of some of those parents. THEY may be smoking too...or doing crack.
They may simply not care what their kids are doing. I keep learning that about parents...so many of our children's friends have NO father in their lives. Many kids are depressed and many marriages are falling apart.)
I don't want to turn this into a polemic about the virtues or sins of marijuana. You're in a very tough spot and your h's position is NOT helping you. Sure, he can look like the nutty one, but then he has leverage....
I think your point about how your s12 thought patterns are as they are, and how your older son has a CHOICE, was wise. My mom has dementia and I have asked my kids if they want to sound like her, at their young age.
They said "NO!" But if I push that argument too far, they tune it out b/c it smacks of "reefer madness arguments" and when s26 says that "adults lied about pot" he has a point.
WE did not lie about it. But we let others lie about it. I recall a DARE counselor going to our then 7 y/o daughters Easter Egg hunt...ponder that!!...
and he asked the kids if their "parents smoked cigarettes or drank beer or wine BECAUSE THOSE ARE DRUGS TOO."
I couldn't believe it. THANKS for lumping my glass of wine with LSD and meth...how's a 7 y/o supposed to distinguish between those?
So our kids feel we have little credibility when we talk like that. And I don't want to lose that credibility b/c I think it increases their desire to discover for themselves...
if nothing else, be honest with him about all the dimensions of his choices now. The sports, the social issues, the 'stoner loss of ambition you rightly fear, (My high school boyfriend smoked pot every day...failed out of college. I met h and dropped the stoner. LATER the stoner turned his life around and joined the Air Force but if we'd kept dating maybe he would keep on smoking)
ButI DO think your h could use it against him/you,
and that's when his spending on OW might come up as an irrelevant BUT useful retort. "How dare YOU!" seems appropriate...
Good luck.
For ME, it got me through a hard teenage time when my father was both hypocritical and violent.
[/b]
I think there are situations where a marriage should be ended. I just don't believe most failed marriages are actually in those situations. I don't believe mine is. Isn't that the whole point of DB?
Our perceptions are so clouded. My W has a mother and 2 aunts who have been divorced. I have asked them, and they all say that in their situation, divorce was the best option. I don't believe that. In each of their stories, I see self-centered people who didn't give their marriage a priority. People who were spiritually lost and had immature perceptions of what it means to be happy, or to love. These people later found happiness, not because they changed partners, but because these perceptions matured.
There is an underlying truth to these situations. Was living with you truly bad enough to justify thinking "he would die in our relationship". Did he honestly try "Everything he could". Did he really have "No other choice", but to have an affair. You no that the TRUTH is "NO". This isn't just your "View", it is reality.
My thinking is going the other way. I am beginning to see things more "Black and White".
Mature people base a marriage on unconditional love. They take the time to nurture the relationship. They are honest and dependable. They learn how to communicate and resolve problems. But, mostly, they are committed to making the marriage work and demonstrate that commitment by not giving up when things get tough. I know that in my marriage, neither my wife or I truly understood these things. Maybe it takes a failed marriage to learn these things. Maybe some people never do.
RockJC's post has really made me think - thank you for sharing and sorry Ad for the hijack.
I agree that there are situations were marriages should end. Physical abuse is clearly one most people would put in that category.
I also don't believe mine is one of those M that should end, or I wouldn't be on these boards. I thought we should have had a lot more fight in us given the fact that at bomb time, we had two toddlers and I was just 9 weeks pregnant. Yet, my H honestly thought that he would die if he had stayed in this M and that our kids' lives would be forever ruined.
Was he immature, spiritually lost, or simply someone with a different view from mine of what is acceptable in a M? He truly believes he nurtured our R and was honest and dependable but didn't receive the same back from me. He believes he tried his best until the day he left to communicate and resolve problems and I simply never responded.
While I might not agree with him, I can't really argue because we are not talking about something that either of us could prove or disprove beyond a shadow of a doubt. So in that sense, it's really not all black and white in my view.
I do completely agree that we both should have learned many tough lessons about M and love before giving up, yet we didn't. So maybe you are right (and it's sad), that perhaps it will take our failed M to learn those lessons. At least my H believes so as he has told me he is trying to learn from all the mistakes he made with me so he can have a better R with OW.
I can relate. My H said that he doesn’t want legal divorce yet. He didn’t me give a time frame either.
I think it is disrespectful of your H to spend money in sex shop knowing that you would see the charges in the card. I guess he is truly absorbed in himself and doesn’t understand the boundaries. I’m so sorry you have to go through this. Try not to think about this. I don’t really know what I would do in this situation, so I cannot give you any advice.
Thanks BrightFuture. It is just really good to have people here to talk to. Thanks for reading my thread.
I guess the upside to not having a timeframe means for now you get all the time you need. Hang in there!
Rock, maybe those people were self centered and immature, and didn't know yet what they knew later. But the thing is, you can't wish them more mature or less self centered. Fact is that when they were in the marriage that failed, they probably weren't capable of saving it. That's sad. I don't think most failed marriages are people willfully choosing that option over other options that they can see.
Or, at least in the case of my husband, I don't think it's that he has low morals or a looser hold on the commitment of marriage, or is too lazy to work on the marriage. I don't think he's choosing an easy route. I think he really believes love can just go away, and attraction can just be forever gone, even if he didn't believe that before he believes it now because he feels it and is living it. I think if this was an easy out for him he wouldn't have spent the last two years hiding in bed all day long. I have total faith and can clearly see how we could get back to each other...but he does not and cannot. That's sad.
I've really lost my outrage. I don't know anymore what I thought I knew. I really am still mad at him and at the way he handled this, but it's about as useless as being mad at him for being a quadriplegic. Something in him broke and neither of us can fix it. Blaming him and judging him really doesn't do me any good, make me feel any better, or bring us any closer, doesn't help my kids, doesn't garner me any helpful support, it's just pointless.
I'm not perfect, and I still do blame and judge, but I got knocked off my pedestal here a long time ago and it doesn't make me feel good to think less of him.
I think there are situations where a marriage should be ended. I just don't believe most failed marriages are actually in those situations. I don't believe mine is. Isn't that the whole point of DB?
Though I can't speak for yours, (ultimately only you and your w can/will) I do agree that most marriages should not just end but that yes, some should. I think MWD posits two thoughts on this.
First, she outright says in Div Remedy that "Some marriages will end" no matter what the LBSer does. And that's clearly true. Sometimes a WAS really is DONE.
And the other times are when we'd probably all agree, it's over. Violence, insanity untreated, etc. No real debate here.
Our perceptions are so clouded. My W has a mother and 2 aunts who have been divorced. I have asked them, and they all say that in their situation, divorce was the best option. I don't believe that.
Well obviously they know things you/we cannot know about their m's. But it's a surprising thing they say. I read that 3/4 of divorced people, 5 years later, regret their divorce AND OR believe they could have worked things out if they'd had certain tools, tried harder, etc...
so I'm surprised they both still say their divorces were right. Maybe they just don't want to be "wrong" to have divorced...were they the ones who filed??
In each of their stories, I see self-centered people who didn't give their marriage a priority. People who were spiritually lost and had immature perceptions of what it means to be happy, or to love. These people later found happiness, not because they changed partners, but because these perceptions matured.
Just so I'm clear, you mean the aunts (or others who divorced and should not have), later are happier b/c THEY changed, not b/c they divorced? I mean, I can see that. But I can see either, and it's also very hard to prove...
There's a book I saw but didn't read. The TITLE of it hit me. The title is "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay". I imagine many LBSers are pretty much thinking along those lines and wondering which it is...
There is an underlying truth to these situations. Was living with you truly bad enough to justify thinking "he would die in our relationship". Did he honestly try "Everything he could". Did he really have "No other choice", but to have an affair. You no that the TRUTH is "NO". This isn't just your "View", it is reality.
My thinking is going the other way. I am beginning to see things more "Black and White".
Mature people base a marriage on unconditional love.
I don't mean to quibble with this sentiment.^^^. But I'm not sure what it means. People use it differently.
There are some around that mistreat their spouses and then claim outrage that the spouse wants out. They themselves have no intention of significantly changing or improving how they treat their spouse but they insist on staying together "no matter what" and for some of them, it's a carte blanche on mistreating their spouse. Not beating them, but neglecting and treating with contempt, etc.
I'm sincerely curious about this for reasons related to another poster. I have to ask, what is unconditional love, in the face of cruel or indifferent behavior from your spouse, over several years? Absent actual physical abuse, isn't it really a case of knowing when it really is too bad to stay?
Don't get me wrong. Clearly people divorce too easily. And I meet people getting divorced who are not on this site, and treat their divorce as if a terrible thing happened to their car...fortunately, their insurance will eventually get them suitable transportation and meanwhile...inconveniences abound...but NOT heartbreak.
I'm confused and baffled by those people. Did they not truly love each other at one point, or is this their coping mechanism OR did they stop caring and let apathy take over? When I hear "we grew apart" and there's no OP, I have to wonder...in those cases NO it's not too bad to stay.
They simply have no motivation OR mechanism for change and growth, I think.
They take the time to nurture the relationship. They are honest and dependable. They learn how to communicate and resolve problems. But, mostly, they are committed to making the marriage work and demonstrate that commitment by not giving up when things get tough. I know that in my marriage, neither my wife or I truly understood these things. Maybe it takes a failed marriage to learn these things. Maybe some people never do.
I hear what you are saying. But the irony is that 2nd marriages have less chance of success than first ones...so I'm not sure who is learning what.
But I'm glad you're trying.
Rock, maybe those people were self centered and immature, and didn't know yet what they knew later. But the thing is, you can't wish them more mature or less self centered. Fact is that when they were in the marriage that failed, they probably weren't capable of saving it. That's sad. I don't think most failed marriages are people willfully choosing that option over other options that they can see.
Or, at least in the case of my husband, I don't think it's that he has low morals or a looser hold on the commitment of marriage, or is too lazy to work on the marriage. I don't think he's choosing an easy route.
FWIW, your h does not sound happy. He sounds miserable.
I think he really believes love can just go away, and attraction can just be forever gone, even if he didn't believe that before he believes it now because he feels it and is living it. I think if this was an easy out for him he wouldn't have spent the last two years hiding in bed all day long. I have total faith and can clearly see how we could get back to each other...but he does not and cannot. That's sad.
Yes it is.
I've really lost my outrage. I don't know anymore what I thought I knew. I really am still mad at him and at the way he handled this, but it's about as useless as being mad at him for being a quadriplegic. Something in him broke and neither of us can fix it. Blaming him and judging him really doesn't do me any good, make me feel any better, or bring us any closer, doesn't help my kids, doesn't garner me any helpful support, it's just pointless.
Pointless...and harmful. To you, to your sons, and maybe even to him. You're onto something.
I'm not perfect, and I still do blame and judge, but I got knocked off my pedestal here a long time ago and it doesn't make me feel good to think less of him.
Well said.
In case I wasn't clear in summarizing the TOME I wrote you, let me sum it up.
RE the pot.
Your son cannot smoke now & in the near future, b/c
1) IF he gets caught, it will affect HIS IMMEDIATE future in a big fat way
2) YOU could suffer consequences as well, legally & financially. Losing him to a boarding school (or your h), will also hurt your s12 and would be VERY UNFUN for s15.
3) Lacrosse...College...all gone, for that?
4) the very real dangers of being with under the influenced drivers. Aside from his own life, how would he feel being part of an accident that killed another person? How does one cope with that on their shoulders?
5) Besides, pot will still be around in a few years. He can party later on his own terms.
But taking him to a substance abuse clinic, unless he's high every day, seems like you might be getting him to a point where he thinks you're "going reefer madness" on him. You risk losing credibility and right now you two seem to have a good enough r that he'd feel remorse for harming you. Is that true?
6) the LYING to you, is totally unacceptable. For me, that hurts the most & that'd be where the most significant consequences would come. If the lie also relates to pot, so he's also breaking a promise, that's a double whammy.
When your h goes off on his rants, the thing that bothers me the most is how much lying HE does. Still...and yet gets this zero tolerance badge on his chest that HE sees as some testament to his honor...but it's the opposite. I think your son sees thru him. And it hurts.
You wrote:
"I want to talk to S15 and try to figure out how I can connect with him in a way that's meaningful to get him to choose for himself things that are not illegal, dangerous, and liable to close doors in his life. H says the ONLY way to do this is to come down hard with the voice of authority and demand respect, nothing but total respect, in keeping the house neat and all other ways. And if that doesn't work, boarding school."
What you say, makes total sense to me. What HE says, does not. I see his role in your son's need to escape. But I guess if your h is, just NOT self aware, he can't see this. Has your h ever gotten something positive out of counselling?
Wish I had more helpful things for you...
Hang in there Ad...this too, shall pass.
//Mature people base a marriage on unconditional love.
I don't mean to quibble with this sentiment.^^^. But I'm not sure what it means. People use it differently.//
For me, it means viewing "Love" as a verb, and not an adjective. I choose to Love vs I feel Love. Once you view love as a verb that you choose, then you must decide when to choose it. Conditional love says that I will choose to love in reciprocation for being loved by you. Unconditional love syas that I will choose to love regardless of how I am being treated by you.
I think AD is giving us an excellent example of unconditional love. Her husband is emotionally abusing her. He is insulting her by shopping at a sex shop. He is rejecting her by leaving the marriage. And yet AD is choosing to continue to love her husband. This is how mature people who understand love behave. The decision to love was made the day she took her vows.
Immature Love = I feel love for you
Conditional Love = I love you because you love me
Unconditional Love = I Love you because I am a person who Loves.
The easisest example of unconditional love to understand is the love we have for our children. We don't stop loving them when they misbehave. The most powerful example of unconditional love is Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:8 says: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
I have rejected God, rebelled against him and refused him Love. Yet, he chooses to love me and expresses that love through the ultimate sacrifice of death on a cross. He does this, not becuase of a feeling, or in return for my love, but because he IS love.
I agree that love is not merely a noun but a verb. It requires action. It means choosing to love, even when it's not easy and even when you cannot think of a "reason" for loving someone.
Sometimes our spouses do Not act "loving" or "lovable" - but we choose to love them, anyhow.
This^^^ I accept & believe.
I agree with this and have really learned it over the course of my ordeal. One of the more frustrating things for me is that I don't think my XW sees it this way.
I would never vocalize this to her, but I (all of us, really) have a million reasons why I could just shut down and say I don't love anymore. Most of us here have all been through hell in one way or another. Somehow I am blessed (cursed?) with the ability to look past the hurt, all the things that were said and done and STILL love her. Like I said, it just gets frustrating that it has yet to flow both ways.
Crimson
I have expressed this to my W. I got a deer in the headlights look and a "that makes no sense" response. Mind you, my W is very intelligent and can readily understand this concept. She rejects it because it conflicts with her current desires.
She needs to justify her behavior and must take an emotional view of love. With that view, she is able to become a victim of fate rather than a person making a moral choice. What else can she do, she is not "In Love" and she is powerless to change this reality. She is "In love" with the OM, how can she deny these feelings? How do her friends or family argue with what she feels?
AD - I see your husband making the same justifications. I can understand how a person would willingly deceive themselves. But, in the end, they are lying to themselves. We live in a relativist culture where we tend to view all perspectives as equally valid. They are not. The simple fact that your H believes something doesn’t make it true.
You said:
“Or, at least in the case of my husband, I don't think it's that he has low morals or a looser hold on the commitment of marriage, or is too lazy to work on the marriage. I don't think he's choosing an easy route. I think he really believes love can just go away, and attraction can just be forever gone, even if he didn't believe that before he believes it now because he feels it and is living it.”
He does not have low morals or is lazy. He is just wrong. He feels it and lives it, because it is a self fulfilling prophesy. Once he chooses not to love, or accept your love, it is not surprising that he doesn’t feel love.
You can validate his feelings without accepting the lie. In my mind, this issue is “Black and White”. Unfortunately, everything I read says that this is something your H needs to learn on his own. I wish there was a pill.
//Mature people base a marriage on unconditional love.
I don't mean to quibble with this sentiment.^^^. But I'm not sure what it means. People use it differently.//
For me, it means viewing "Love" as a verb, and not an adjective. I choose to Love vs I feel Love. Once you view love as a verb that you choose, then you must decide when to choose it. Conditional love says that I will choose to love in reciprocation for being loved by you. Unconditional love syas that I will choose to love regardless of how I am being treated by you.
I think AD is giving us an excellent example of unconditional love. Her husband is emotionally abusing her. He is insulting her by shopping at a sex shop. He is rejecting her by leaving the marriage. And yet AD is choosing to continue to love her husband. This is how mature people who understand love behave. The decision to love was made the day she took her vows.
Immature Love = I feel love for you
Conditional Love = I love you because you love me
Unconditional Love = I Love you because I am a person who Loves.
I wrote this sentiment to my W last year in a letter (back when I was chasing) after the 3rd BD (the discovery that W & OM were communicating again, news to OM's W and me):
...Yes, this past week has been extremely difficult for me. I have been scraping the bottom of the emotional barrel. But it reinforced some things for me as well. I LOVE YOU, [W]. Completely. Unconditionally. And that means, by definition, I love you without condition. In this case that means you don't have to love me back. If I loved you only if you loved me too...well, that's easy. Anybody can do that. You loved me for a very long time when I wasn't loving you like I should and treating you like I should and respecting you and us like I should have and I refuse to do that anymore...look, I'm not going to go over what I'm going to do for the rest of my life again. We did that on Friday. You know where I stand and what I promise to you and our family. You loved me for longer than anyone else would have ever put up with. And this isn't me feeling like I owe you something and I'm trying to pay you back for that, it's me just loving you. That's it...
I'm sure a lot of us have said very similar things.
Wow, that was 10 months ago...things haven't changed much in that department.
Keep at it adinva! I can't say what you are doing will give you the result you desire, but doing what is "right" will always allow to live with yourself. Living a life to your own moral standards, even if they aren't shared by the people most important to who those morals apply to, is honorable and faithful. Good job.
Well, get working on that pill because there are 253,687 people on these forums alone who would buy it from you. I wish too.
I guess we're not going to change each other's beliefs much, but I have felt that a humble approach is much more effective, internally and externally, than a projected self-righteousness. You follow Jesus and I do too, so consider imagining him shouting to anyone who would listen, I'M RIGHT! I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG! WHY CAN'T YOU SEE IT! YOU'RE SELFISH AND YOU'RE NOT LOVING CORRECTLY! Would you be reading about it in a book this many years later?
Outrage just doesn't work in something like this.
25, I respect your input so much. I am right on the edge of reefer madness and well aware of it. My only saving grace is that I have been literally the coolest most patient and respectful mom ever up until now so it's a real one-off and hopefully shocking.
There are a couple of parents who think I'm a little nuts, and some who think taking S15 in for this assessment is awesome.
I'm not sure it's the right thing to do, myself, but I'm willing to be upfront about that. We're experiencing it together and we'll learn and adjust as needed I guess. I was hoping it would be a recovered junkie who could tell him in ways he would understand why and how to cool it with this stuff. I am still telling myself there's no way I'm signing him up for a treatment program that meets two nights a week. I'm still tempted by denial.
But the fact is, he's doing it in our house, he's doing it under my nose, he's been caught one two three times now, he's storing the stuff in his hiding place supposedly for friends who couldn't take it home. He's just about begging me to care and do something. And when he defied my consequences and sneaked out I felt like I needed to respond with something really big.
I have been told this is completely confidential, it won't be reported to the school, team, police, or anyone. I might not submit it for insurance reimbursement and just cough up the $175, because I still fear that "permanent record" idea they used to hold over our heads when I was a kid.
I have been tempted to call them up ahead of time and say, by the way, this is what I want him to get out of this meeting, and this is what I want you to cover. I decided not to because I'm so wanting to smooth this over for S15 and help it be easy for him.
BTW I finally talked to the mom who hosted him the night he snuck out. I didn't mention to her that she supposedly picked him up, and she didn't mention it to me. But I told her I don't know what any individual of these boys is doing, I can only tell her that among the group, it is going on. And she looked me in the eye, and said, I'm so glad my B__ is so stubborn. Boy if he doesn't like the taste of something or doesn't want to do something he is NOT going to do it. I don't have to worry about him, I know he's not into that stuff. I said, "well that's nice. I asked my S if he liked the taste of it and he said he did. He also liked how it made him feel. And he and his friend lied about the chewing tobacco being someone else's for a long time before they admitted to doing it. I guess sometimes they might act more innocent than they are." I'm not going to convince her.
Oh yeah she said they do the "bro showers" at her house too and she says it's definitely not to smoke pot. I asked if she didn't think it was a little weird that homophobic adolescent male athletes are taking showers for extended periods in our upstairs bathrooms? Naaahhhh, she's pretty sure it's fine.
She told me that other moms are talking to her about my son's best friend being a bad influence on the others, and my son by connection, and that they're grumbling about not wanting their kids to hang around with ours and start chewing tobacco. Oy.
OK, so, tomorrow I pull S15 out of school early, take him out for lunch, take him to see this assessment counselor, and hopefully learn something about each other. I'm wondering if they're going to pee-test him. I don't know how he feels about that but I'd really be mad and feel personally violated by it.
I have a bunch of stories I can drag out for him about real people he knows, but my words aren't getting through to him. He has a 30yo cousin who's messing up her life and all her relationships with a probable drug habit. An uncle who can't fly on airplanes without a miserable weaning period from the pot he's hooked on, and who's drunk and pees his pants on the couch. A grandfather who overcame alcoholism. A mom who overcame addiction to cigarettes. That's all I've got, but I haven't wanted to throw his family members under the bus while he's still practically a kid.
So I guess tomorrow I'll be a crazy reefer madness parent and hope it does more good than harm. Interestingly, the boy has wound up in my bed to sleep the past few nights, so he sure doesn't hate me too much. It's so funny to see my giant grown nearly-man curled up in my bed like when he was a baby. I don't flatter myself too much; I know he's there for the dogs mostly since they insist on my bed.
Outrage just doesn't work in something like this
Adinva,
Your insight stopped me in my tracks.
I'm still regularly 'outraged' by what STBX does.
But it doesn't work.
I can't express it to him, and if I keep experiencing it, I'm just stuck.
This has helped me no end.
Thankyou.
Thanks NLW, I appreciate that. I noticed the thing with outrage a while into my sitch and I really believe it has no place. You're right, it was keeping me stuck too. I'm very suspicious of it when I see it now.
I don't advocate outrage. In fact I agree with you, and wish I had more control over my emotions. I couldn't handle what you are handling with such calm. When I get angry, it is usually counterproductive and I regret it. I notice that this situation is forcing me to get better control over this particular emotion.
I think the right reaction isn't rage, but Pity. My W like your H is in a lot of emotional pain. After pity, grace and forgiveness. Personally, I have some emotions to work through before I am there.
.I think the right reaction isn't rage, but Pity Empathy. My W like your H is in a lot of emotional pain. After pity Because of empathy, grace and forgiveness can happen. Personally, I have some emotions to work through before I am there.
There.. fixed that for ya.
25, I respect your input so much. I am right on the edge of reefer madness and well aware of it.
My only saving grace is that I have been literally the coolest most patient and respectful mom ever up until now so it's a real one-off and hopefully shocking.
Adinva,^^^that's a pretty huge "saving grace" my friend. It will help you.
There are a couple of parents who think I'm a little nuts, and some who think taking S15 in for this assessment is awesome.
I don't think it's nuts. You're worried. But like you, I'm into what works. And I am not feelin' it, but since you're uber coolness mama, then let's see.
Make sure your attitude while you're there is honest concerned interest and not an "I told ya so!"
But then, you were never going to do that, were you? 
I'm not sure
it's the right thing to do, myself, but I'm willing to be upfront about that. We're experiencing it together and we'll learn and adjust as needed I guess.
exactly! You don't know...HE doesn't know. So You're both going to learn. Fair enough.I was hoping it would be a recovered junkie who could tell him in ways he would understand why and how to cool it with this stuff. I am still telling myself there's no way I'm signing him up for a treatment program that meets two nights a week.
I'm still tempted by denial.
I hear you.
BTW SIDENOTE, I gave up alcohol for Lent. Not a big deal, or so I thought. But I'm in a wine club. And I have to say, this is a big fat drag. (But I stupidly told the kids 
so now they're watching. Geez, I can't blow it.)
Alcohol free wine is horrible FYI.
Point is, it's hard to tell your kids not to party or smoke pot when giving up alcohol just for Lent, is so damn inconvenient. It's socially affecting us at the wine club, obviously. I don't know your son's social circles but are ALL his peeps partiers? How many friends will he think he's going to lose by changing this behavior?
My guess is the most likely Non partiers are the athletes. D15's team gets drug tested and for HER, basketball is a major part of her life that she likes. She is on varsity now and my guess is that the team is the biggest reason she hasn't given into temptation.
I say that with the proviso that she could be lying to me. But a drug test would reveal that. She saw a senior get kicked off for having consumed alcohol. I don't recall how the girl got caught, but she's off the team now.
How often are they tested there?
(I think THC shows up on drug tests for 30 days, unlike alcohol...)
SO- my point about the alcohol & wine club is that, To your son, saying "don't smoke pot...ever...or for the next 3 years..." will seem HUGE.
Maybe to him it will not appear doable. He'll need to learn to take it a shorter amount of time...as they say "one day at a time". THAT is something a junkie could tell him.
But the fact is, he's doing it in our house, he's doing it under my nose, he's been caught one two three times now, he's storing the stuff in his hiding place supposedly for friends who couldn't take it home. He's just about begging me to care and do something. And when he defied my consequences and sneaked out I felt like I needed to respond with something really big.
okay now. See, somehow the only part of this^^ I knew was that he has smoked and that he snuck out. (Where to??) SO yes, you do have to do something really big...yeah, I get that.
I have been told this is completely confidential, it won't be reported to the school, team, police, or anyone. I might not submit it for insurance reimbursement and just cough up the $175, because I still fear that "permanent record" idea they used to hold over our heads when I was a kid.
pay out of pocket absolutely. Especially with electronic medical records, you never know where they'll go or who will access them. I don't mean to sound paranoid. But I do health care law and have seen my client corporation "lose" chunks of records to a nutty IT guy we had fired...nice...cost over $600k to semi repair the damage. As for the privacy loss- Who knows?
I have been tempted to call them up ahead of time and say, by the way, this is what I want him to get out of this meeting, and this is what I want you to cover. I decided not to because I'm so wanting to smooth this over for S15 and help it be easy for him.
Prepare some questions for YOU to get answers to and make sure you leave no question unasked...BTW I finally talked to the mom who hosted him the night he snuck out. I didn't mention to her that she supposedly picked him up, and she didn't mention it to me. But I told her I don't know what any individual of these boys is doing, I can only tell her that among the group, it is going on.
And she looked me in the eye, and said, I'm so glad my B__ is so stubborn. Boy if he doesn't like the taste of something or doesn't want to do something he is NOT going to do it. I don't have to worry about him, I know he's not into that stuff. I said, "well that's nice. I asked my S if he liked the taste of it and he said he did. He also liked how it made him feel. And he and his friend lied about the chewing tobacco being someone else's for a long time before they admitted to doing it. I guess sometimes they might act more innocent than they are." I'm not going to convince her.
You don't have to convince her. All you "have to do" is act w/integrity..
But to me, having integrity on this issue means you don't cover for or go along with deceit. If you had SEEN him smoke, that would probably mean telling her. The only limit to that would be if you thought the parents were nutty or abusive.
But being so actively in denial as she is, (who else would talk so confidently but a woman terrified of being wrong?) makes me wonder what she is so energized by...or who she is afraid of?
Hey I admit my d15 might be lying to me. But SHE will pay the consequences if she is.
Hey, At least we'll save on expensive private colleges if they get arrested....(I'm joking. Why yes, It's a coping mechanism )
Oh yeah she said they do the "bro showers" at her house too and she says it's definitely not to smoke pot.
I asked if she didn't think it was a little weird that homophobic adolescent male athletes are taking showers for extended periods in our upstairs bathrooms? Naaahhhh, she's pretty sure it's fine.
WTH? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I HAVE to ask my s25 about that. I'm flummoxed.
She told me that other moms are talking to her about my son's best friend being a bad influence on the others, and my son by connection, and that they're grumbling about not wanting their kids to hang around with ours and start chewing tobacco. Oy.
The deal with chewing tobacco is it's OVERT tobacco use (not hidden pot use) and it may also suggest a "redneckness" to it she may feel snobbishly superior about. I might say "it's not what they do openly in front of me that I worry about."
And Ad, you cannot store pot at your house. That is a huge legal risk in several ways.
I'd give one warning to him AND by extension to the others, (making sure that he tells them you said this OR you tell them yourself)
that you will toss out whatever you find. Flush it down the toilet with your son watching...that will keep them from leaving it at your place...
.OK, so, tomorrow I pull S15
out of school early, take him out for lunch, take him to see this
assessment counselor, and hopefully learn something about each other. I'm wondering if they're going to pee-test him.
I don't know how he feels about that but I'd really be mad and feel personally violated by it.
Why would you feel violated by it? B/C it's "confidential"? Am I confusing two different events? I have a bunch of stories I can drag out for him about real people he knows, but my words aren't getting through to him. He has a 30yo cousin who's messing up her life and all her relationships with a probable drug habit.
An uncle who can't fly on airplanes without a miserable weaning period from the pot he's hooked on, and who's drunk and pees his pants on the couch.
what?? We HAVE to connect on the alt universe. See Kaffe Diem if you can b/c he can hook us up. A grandfather who overcame alcoholism. A mom who overcame addiction to cigarettes. That's all I've got,
but I haven't wanted to throw his family members under the bus while he's still practically a kid.
oh. I get that. But you have YOU quitting cigarettes as a great example. That is a big deal. I dragged my mom through a pulmonary ward to get her to quit when she was 70. A pulmonologist friend showed her several cancer patients on ventilators. My mom insisted SHE would "die quickly" and he told her "oh we don't allow that anymore. Thanks to your daughter the L, we HAVE to keep you plugged in for a LONG time..."
She cut back by about half then. But today, my dear mom has vascular dementia & it's COMPLETELY related to her smoking.
Someone could argue about her being 91 and getting it anyhow. But no. All of my aunts are alive, all 6 of them. Her sisters who are older, including the one who is 100, are all fully lucid. My 100 y/o aunt uses Skype and email and oh guess what? SHE did not smoke.
That's the only difference. My mom is in great physical shape looks wise. But my 100 year old aunt, at the age of 90 began ballroom dancing..seriously. Now she wins dance contests. Of course in her age group that might not be saying a lot.
What is saying a lot is that she began the lessons at my mom's age. I can't see my mom taking up ANY new activity b/c she is having memory problems as it is. Bottom line there are 6 old women and the only ones who have memory problems or dementia, smoked. The differences are startling.
The 2 smokers are not the oldest ones. It's Heart breaking and little known b/c all we ever focus on are the lungs when it comes to smoking.
BTW, my MIL was a big time smoker. For years a chain smoker and she never really cut back. She passed away 2 years ago (age 70) from lung cancer that went to the brain. She lived almost 2 years w/it, and it was SO HARD on...everyone. It's an ugly miserable way to die.
So I guess tomorrow I'll be a crazy reefer madness parent and hope it does more good than harm
. Interestingly, the boy has wound up in my bed to sleep the past few nights, so he sure doesn't hate me too much. It's so funny to see my giant grown nearly-man curled up in my bed like when he was a baby. I don't flatter myself too much; I know he's there for the dogs mostly since they insist on my bed.
Can you help him with that? Maybe see tomorrow as the place to get him a road map.
Sometimes s25 asks me for a back massage for his "sore muscles from working out" and I think it's b/c they can't say "can I sit on your lap?" Or "I need some cuddling, mama."
My d's would say something like that even now, when they get their baby voices on. But man cubs like your s15 and my S25 can't do that.
Tomorrow might not be a bust. It might be darn good.
Be open to the good possibilities too. My uber positive friend Carol would say "it's an opportunity for you to meet a challenge, together". 
No matter what happens tomorrow (well, within reason), he will still love you after this. And on the off chance that something violative happens, then share in the outrage with your son.
Unlike with your h, your outrage MAY WELL work w/your son. You're on the same team, which is his team.
Go team!
((( )))
I don't advocate outrage. In fact I agree with you, and wish I had more control over my emotions. I couldn't handle what you are handling with such calm. When I get angry, it is usually counterproductive and I regret it. I notice that this situation is forcing me to get better control over this particular emotion.
I think the right reaction isn't rage, but Pity. My W like your H is in a lot of emotional pain. After pity, grace and forgiveness. Personally, I have some emotions to work through before I am there.
well said.^^^ No matter how "right" the anger feels, no matter how justified, this place (DBing) stresses finding solutions to our situations.
And anger sure did not work in my situation. It just does not help.
It was hard to let go of b/c I defended it, I almost cultivated it. I believed in it. And I was wrong, b/c it harmed me, our marriage and our children, far more than it helped anyone or anything.
.I think the right reaction isn't rage, but Pity Empathy. My W like your H is in a lot of emotional pain. After pity Because of empathy, grace and forgiveness can happen. Personally, I have some emotions to work through before I am there.
There.. fixed that for ya.
Great point....
Oh yeah she said they do the "bro showers" at her house too and she says it's definitely not to smoke pot. I asked if she didn't think it was a little weird that homophobic adolescent male athletes are taking showers for extended periods in our upstairs bathrooms? Naaahhhh, she's pretty sure it's fine.
So I asked s25 and d15 if they'd ever heard the terms "Bro showers". They both asked me why I was asking...
then D15 said, "it's gay." She has no doubt.
S25 said "it's definitely sexual for some or all of them..."
Then I explained that these were athletes, even "homophobic ones".
S25 asked " You mean they are taking a shower together in someone's bathroom? NOT the school's gym facility? Mom, the only reason two or more guys are in a locked bathroom together, is for sex or maybe drugs."
Then he said "'bro showers' is a term for today's gay bath houses..." and "who cares if they pretend to be homophobic? What's new about that?"
Your son may have a lot he wants to share or discuss with you. I was that age when I realized my 30 y/o softball coach (female) was dating the 3rd baseman who was my age (in high school).
Maybe tomorrow IS a good day to get it all out, maybe not. Then again it might explain a lot of what he's trying to deal with.
But cross that bridge if & when you get to it...one thing at a time.
You are not alone.
I'll just add that I use to turn the shower on super hit, turn of the exhaust fan and some pot at my parents house. That could be what is going on.
I'll just add that I use to turn the shower on super hit, turn of the exhaust fan and some pot at my parents house. That could be what is going on.
I was curious, because I don't want Ad going off half cocked without all of the possible information, so I asked the teenager in my house as well as a friend in his early 20's. Simply because being in a different area of the country can change the slang...
The twenty something...stated something similar to what Tallula posted. And I remember being a teenager, doing the same thing.
The teenage child, told me to check a slang website, as she had never heard the term...
The definitions had nothing to do with sex...
Ad,
Worry about what you KNOW and don't speculate about anything else. If there is more to know, you will find out. And to be honest, as a mother, I think that if faced with the possibility of my S being homosexual, I would give him the same advice as I did regarding girls...If you are going to do it...don't be casual. Be safe. Use protection.
Cat
Good Luck AD, thinking about you. And I have a few things to share with you later.
Good Luck AD, thinking about you. And I have a few things to share with you later.
Hey stranger...
Nice to see you pop up today.
How are things?
Ad, I just repeated their terms but I'd really like to connect elsewhere. Can you find KD?
Also, I did turn on the shower and smoke pot in my house too. Just not with a lot of friends who came out wet and had showered. I don't have all the facts you or that mother have. But that mother's comments threw me for a loop.
My point is that HER story that they are all literally taking showers together in an upstairs home bathroom, makes no sense.
My point is that HER story that they are all literally taking showers together in an upstairs home bathroom, makes no sense.
And when is the last time a group of teenagers made sense ???
: )
I talked with a couple guys at work today, and asked them about what it means...
What I was told, is that a "bro shower" is code for a pre-designated meeting place, to burn one. And what made the most sense, was that it was in a bathroom , so that the steam mixes with the smoke, making it heavier, so that the exhaust fan carries it away faster.
And that the origins ( so I was told) came from the movie
Smokin Aces...
And I know that doesn't make it any easier to deal with AD...
You know where to find me if you need me....
What is the difference between Pity and Empathy?
Does Grace and forgiveness require Empathy?
Interesting points that I haven't ever thought about before.
Empathy - The intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Pity - sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy.
I don't completely understand.
"Bro Showers"? Things have really changed since I was in High School.
What is the difference between Pity and Empathy?
Does Grace and forgiveness require Empathy?
Interesting points that I haven't ever thought about before.
Empathy - The intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Pity - sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy.
I don't completely understand.
In my view, empathy = "I feel for you" and pity = "I feel
sorry for you." Pity strikes me as condescending and coming from a higher social position.
I'm all counselored out today but I thought I'd record this while it's fresh in my mind. I had IC today and most of it we talked about the subsequent appointment with the substance abuse counselor and S15. It was helpful. In addition to being polarized by my H I have some secret ambivalence about this issue too because of just what 25 said. If I was 15 and someone told me do NOT smoke ANY pot for the next three years, I'd have said, OK sure, and not believed for one minute it was possible to commit to that. And that's just what my IC said, the AA way is to just say I won't do it TODAY. That idea takes a weight off my shoulders. Every day's a new day, and S15 can grow and learn and make mistakes and learn, but he doesn't have to promise something for 900 days that would be a lie. I also do realize that pot is different than it was in my day, and we know things about it that we didn't know then. I do realize that. Anyway, I have to wrestle all the way through this to figure out reasonable demands to place on S. So far I've been faking it by not being too specific, that our expectation is that it will not happen. Guess what, it did anyway. We have consequences in place, and that's how the boy learns, but I still need to sort it out better in my own head before I get caught not having the answers (I'm kidding sort of).
So the other part of IC was that H still hasn't gotten back to me to discuss S in a scheduled conversation as I requested last Saturday. He said Sunday or Monday, then Monday at 8. Monday I sat with him at lax and I'm NOT having those conversations at a lax game. After the game I said we're on for 8 but it's 6:30, want to just talk now and maybe get some food? And he said no let's do it another day. That right there was the problem. I love avoiding conflict as much as the next guy, but I should have said you agreed, it is important, if not today at 8 then when? I did not. And so IC said #1 is to be more strong in holding him to scheduled events, #2 document, #3 when he asks why he didn't know before about S15 sneaking out of the house and also seeing a counselor, refer to #2. I'm not handling this with him via text message.
So then I raced to get S15 and on the way there I told him something that was really important to me. I told him he had 100% amnesty for whatever he said in this appointment. He was NOT in trouble with me, and nothing he said would go to the police, the school, anyone. I said, if you had a brain tumor we'd go to the doctor and he'd need to know what you were experiencing with your head. In this case, the counselor needs to know completely honestly what you're doing, in order to get a good picture of what's going on and what you might need. I said I would be no more mad if you said you did nothing and it's all your friends' stuff as if you said you're a strung out drug addict dealing on the side. (For this meeting that is true. Honesty and reality was the goal here.) I also told him people have told me it usually takes a few meetings for someone to open up and really feel comfortable to share information; I was hoping to ramp that up by reducing his potential fears upfront, since it would be easier if we could just be honest in the first meeting. Then we got lunch, and then we met the counselor.
So, she met with us both, and then with just S15. She had him do a self assessment, and a pee test. I'm glad I didn't know about that in advance. (I believe that is very intrusive and I just don't like the idea of it, but because we're at this point I think it's necessary. I just wish it were not.) It was positive, but I was assuming it would be anyway. Just for pot, not any of the other 10 things they test for.
After spending quite a bit of time with us she said her opinion was that treatment was not necessary at this time, but preventative measures were recommended. He is on the borderline between casual use and abuse. He thinks it's not much but she felt the frequency was more of a problem than he thought. We talked about how some people get addicted quickly and you just don't know which ones. We talked about the 100 or so kids she's seen from our county since she was contracted in November, all of whom have gotten caught by the school and gotten in big trouble. We talked about how the other kids know when you get suspended and have to go to the "alternative school" for 40 days. We talked about things he could cite as reasons for abstaining: his crazy wack-job mother, his asthma, etc. She said that the preventative counselor would be able to give him other coping tools and things to say, and practice saying them, if he's willing to meet with her.
I told S15 I see this just like I would a medical issue. I care and am concerned, and want to do what is needed to make sure he grows up healthy and safe. He's really not in trouble for the pot right now, but we need to find a way that is effective to get him away from it. The C said she definitely did not see this as an over the top reaction to what I cited was going on in our house. She wished more parents would bring their kids in at this stage.
I was really proud of S15 for how much poise and calm he had through this. I really would not have behaved as well when I was his age. But my IC pointed out that part of his thing is to be nice and charming in his oppositional/defiance; that makes it harder to catch, and I'll have to not be snowed by him. I would have had to be dragged in by the earlobe, and I would have cried and shut down, for sure.
I don't have to decide anything today, and I have more to think about. But I thought it went really, really well.
Tomorrow he gets off groundedness, and has plans to have a friend overnight.
In the car on the way back to school, he surprised me with a question: are we going to be moving to an apartment or something? I said, I didn't plan to do that but how did he feel about it? He said I don't really care. I said #1 financially it's cheaper to live in our house than to get a 2br apartment in our town, #2 we have enough complications in our lives right now I prefer to keep at least our home simple so I'd rather keep us in it, #3 I like our house but would be fine anywhere that the three of us were (5 counting the dogs), it's just a place for our stuff. We talked a little about trailers and people who retire and drive around in RVs, and my long term thought of moving somewhere more vacation-like once my S12 is out of college, and the fact that it takes me a long time to do much of anything. Except drive, he said, you drive way too fast. Hah!
One of the points I wanted S15 to get out of this exercise was that there are people trained to help with problems that come up in life, and there's no shame in seeking them out. I do hope he gets this.
What is the difference between Pity and Empathy?
Does Grace and forgiveness require Empathy?
Interesting points that I haven't ever thought about before.
Empathy - The intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Pity - sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy.
I don't completely understand.
I can't recall the author of this quote, but it goes something like "Pity is one step away from contempt."
I think there's something inherently imbalanced between two parties if one pities the other, as if the one to be pitied is lower in some way. Or subordinate or inferior in some way.
NOT saying you intend that.
But when i read Val's post which substituted the word empathy for pity I immediately agreed. When you had used the word "pity" for your w, there was almost a visceral response in me that found it off putting.
I could not articulate it, and so I said nothing b/c I agreed with the bulk of your post.
But yes, I think there's a distinction. I know you don't want to hear this but I'll spit it out anyhow b/c I truly don't know another way to say it.
But when you say you pity your w, PART of me gets it. I have pitied my h for the damage he caused his r's with our children.
But part of me still thinks there's a thread of self righteousness coming through, and that piece troubles me.
We can all say, truly, that our WAS's behavior at some point in their MLC or leaving or whatever the heck it is, was selfish or deceitful or worse.
But are they to be defined by this one period?
B/c IF they are defined by it
in our eyes, reconciliation is not really on the table anymore, is it?
Just food for thought.
I was thinking about Rock today. I've been here for a pretty long time and I think sometimes we're just not quite ready to see something a certain way yet. When I first arrived someone who sympathized with or even humanized what my H was doing would have gotten my outrage. I know there are a bunch of times I've gotten really mad at Cat or Crazyville or someone else coming at me with a perspective I was not ready to hear yet. Even if it's dead wrong, not applicable, irrelevant to your case, if you feel your blood boiling over it it's not as clearcut as you'd hope to think.
But you can only see it when you can see it. I sympathize with the newbies who come here and get told how bad they were and what they need to work on, when they're nursing the biggest hurt feelings imaginable and feeling very badly treated. I learned pretty early on that wallowing in that wasn't going to get me anywhere. I also couldn't stick around the MLC forum, for all the good I can clearly see it does people, for me the idea that there was an alien inhabiting my H, or that he acted like all WAS, and was to be pitied and barely tolerated until and unless he snapped out of it, that did me no good either.
I feel like I have no control over much, and I just kind of have to keep living right through what happens, because feeling like I could have controlled it was an illusion anyway. I know for sure I have the power to make things worse, but I definitely don't have the power to make things better in my R.
To me, my H is doing a 100% wrong, wasteful, harmful and needless thing. But to him that is just as convinceably not true. And no matter whether all the world said I was right I'd just be right, and in good company, and divorced. And the fact of the matter is, while his faults are more visible and easier to judge, mine were there too. I like to thing that they're absolved because I've worked on them, but sometimes it's too late even if you worked on them.
I like to stick with what's productive, and for me I have lots to work on learning to coparent with my H, learning to meet people (like my kids) more where they're at than where I'd like to pretend they are, and working harder to understand what's really important in life. I am SO not there yet. If my h doesn't come back for 10 years I have plenty to be busy with to let him sort out his own demons.
Anyway, Rock I think I've been harsh with you and I do understand how raw and new this all is to you. Sometimes it feels tempting to think we know better where you need to get and want you to hurry up and get there. It just doesn't happen on anyone's schedule.
I was thinking about Rock today.
I too have been thinking about Rock.
The pity vs empathy thing.
Personally, I believe pity is a negative emotion. I don't necessarily equate it with feeling sorry FOR them. An example, I pity a woman I know who lived a very abusive childhood. The results of that are her living an adult life filled with running behaviors, extreme alcoholism, and some paranoid thought. She chooses to stay in this life style and it has ruined her relationships with her children, grandchildren, and others. I pity her because she makes the choice to stay where she is instead of doing something about it.
Empathy allows me to have compassion for her situation. For the things that happened that caused her to come to where she is now. No one should have to go through the things that she did. It allows me to forgive the things that she has done that have caused hurt to myself and others. It allows me to see her as human and separate from her actions.
I've been here for a pretty long time and I think sometimes we're just not quite ready to see something a certain way yet. When I first arrived someone who sympathized with or even humanized what my H was doing would have gotten my outrage. I know there are a bunch of times I've gotten really mad at Cat or Crazyville or someone else coming at me with a perspective I was not ready to hear yet.
Yes you have gotten angry. We all have. It's ok.
I also couldn't stick around the MLC forum, for all the good I can clearly see it does people, for me the idea that there was an alien inhabiting my H, or that he acted like all WAS, and was to be pitied and barely tolerated until and unless he snapped out of it, that did me no good either.
I think you misunderstood the MLC forum.
The alien reference is simply a way to explain the behavior that is so opposite from what the person you knew was.
It allows people the ability to find empathy because it allows us to separate the behavior from the person.
The MLCer isn't to be pitied or barely tolerated. I am sorry that you got that feeling.
Their behavior and lack of coping tools and their inability to look for the tools that could help them, is what is to be pitied. The horrible journey they are taking is what is to be pitied.
However, seeing them as human, seeing them as people who are going through something that is difficult to imagine without living it, creates room for empathy to occur. It creates a situation where they can be forgiven, whether or not they come out of the tunnel. It creates a situation where reconciliation CAN possibly happen successfully because they will not be judged for what happened.
I feel like I have no control over much, and I just kind of have to keep living right through what happens, because feeling like I could have controlled it was an illusion anyway. I know for sure I have the power to make things worse, but I definitely don't have the power to make things better in my R.
This is incorrect thinking.
You don't have the power to force reconciliation.
You DO have the power to make things better in your R with your H. Whether that R looks like a M, a good coparenting partnership, a friendship, or simply casual acquaintences that don't want to rip each others heads off, you DO have the power to affect that.
A man I know, had a D that was not amicable. For a few years, all exchanges regarding kids and other stuff was via email and they weren't pretty.
Slowly, that started to change. Not because he changed, but because he kept showing his X the person he is. Exchanges became a little friendlier. Changed from email to text to eventual speaking.
Change does happen. It doesn't always look like what we wanted. Sometimes though it turns out to be the best thing for us.
God has a plan for each of us. We don't know what that plan is and sometimes we just have to have faith. The light at the end of the tunnel, is there. It may be different than what we expected, but it is there.
To me, my H is doing a 100% wrong, wasteful, harmful and needless thing. But to him that is just as convinceably not true. And no matter whether all the world said I was right I'd just be right, and in good company, and divorced. And the fact of the matter is, while his faults are more visible and easier to judge, mine were there too. I like to thing that they're absolved because I've worked on them, but sometimes it's too late even if you worked on them.
One more thing AD, it's never too late. If working on your faults makes you a better person, better able to communicate, better able to envision your own happiness, then it wasn't too late.
An exercise for you...
Sit back. See who YOU were pre bomb. How you handled things. What you imagined your future to look like. Did you have dreams or were you going through the motions?
And then look at who you are NOW. How you handle things. What you imagine is possible for your future. What your dreams are now.
Then tell me it was too late.
Those are good thoughts! I wasn't as complete in that post as I would have liked on second thought, and you picked up on many missing things.
I think one of the big things that happened to me in this is my mind was opened to be able to acknowledge the coexistence of different perceptions of reality.
Prebomb I handled a lot of things in a way that reflected my strong sense of rightness. After years of ineffective attempts to get H to meet my needs I had settled into reactivity, short temper, passive aggressiveness, and I did not see how to make things better because I was not looking at ME I was looking at what was wrong with HIM.
"Too Late" was a bad paragraph. I was thinking "too late for the marriage" because that's what we all come here thinking. If I change x and y and go to counseling we can fix this. Sometimes we can't fix the marriage by doing these things. But it's never too late to be a better person, to build bridges toward your spouse or ex, to learn where your joy really comes from and tap into it. It just may be "too late" to be able to turn around this marital relationship before divorce.
In my case, that's a good thing. I came here willing to do ANYTHING to stay married to my H, willing to accept almost ANYTHING from him if he would just not leave, confident that I could single handedly turn us into a better functioning couple that would stay together, "eyes on the prize." Right now I actually stand a better chance of that happening than I did in 2011, because I've learned to understand and let go of a lot of anger I was holding, I've learned not to shoot myself in the foot so much with my communication style, I've taken a lot more responsibility for who I am and what I want to be. I feel pretty sure if H changed his mind before any of that happened, we might have stayed miserably married for possibly a short time before it blew up again.
Oh yeah, I was going through the motions. I was only happy when I was escaping, if I'm completely honest with myself.
thank you adinva, cat and 25 for inspiring and thoughtful posts. my anger was welling up this morning, my self-righteous superior victimhood about what was done to me.... and your posts caused me not only to see my faulty thinking but also to realize my power... to change me. as you alluded to, adinva, i could have stayed blind and fumbled through life unaware and unhappy, but my stich has woken me up.
and, 25, i agree with your thoughts about the difference between empathy and pity. i do think it is a slippery slope to feeling superior and one i struggle with at times. it is something for me to work on still. my W felt it during the M and your post helped me put a framework around why.... i was lacking true empathy and i was too concerned about being right.
thank you for the inspiration this morning.
p.s. and adinva, i love how you handled the situation with your son. i think that you showed care and concern, set boundaries and provided support without being reactive and helped him to start thinking about his choices in a logical and healthy way (ie what are the consequences.) thank you for sharing this.
It is so sad that you have to deal with your teenagers problems on top of your R problems. My oldest is 13, so my parenting problems are still pretty small. At least:
"Just for pot, not any of the other 10 things they test for"
had to be some encouraging news. Keep strong.
I feel like I hijacked your thread, so I created a new one "Pity vs Empathy" I would post a link, but I don't know how. When I get a chance, I will respond to all the comments there. It is a lot to think about. Thank you for taking the time to read my comments and thinking about me. Figuring out how to frame my feelings about my W is one of the things I really need help with.
One last thing - about "Bro Showers". Regardless of what is actually happening, I can't see anything positive that would require "Bro showering". This seems like a good issue to take the Nancy Reagan "Just say no" approach. It is behavior that should just stop - no questions asked.
Adinva,
I'll post in more detail elsewhere when I get a chance b/c there is so much in your posts to respond to!!
Let me just say this about the meeting yesterday...
How could it realistically, have gone better?
Minus the pee test (which I am not ready to totally devalue) the answer was that "yes your son has a problem (so he cannot blow it off as nothing or a phase)
but NO he's not an abuser yet"....sort of the perfect place to be IF you want him to take it seriously but without him being too far gone.
As for the urinanalysis, he's going to have to take them sometime in real life...and even more so if he ever gets caught or has a record.
So maybe there was a thread of value in it already that can get thru to him. Plus, you were united in outrage, right? Yay, you're on the same team!
As for the moving question, WOW that was an interesting one...he does worry doesn't he? And yet he wants to reassure YOU that HE will be alright...truly, I'm touched. I particularly LOVED your amnesty speech!!
My mc told me way back when, that if we were to divorce, I should minimize the number of changes the kids would have to deal with. He told me to stress the things that would NOT change, like not having to move, having the same friends, same neighborhood, same school etc.
It is ironic that in your son's situation, if HE gets caught w/pot or turns up positive, he could be forced to make those^^ very changes & it'd be b/c of HIS choices...not yours or h's.
Finally, one point about the bro showers I want to make. Regardless of whether it's to do drugs, experiment with sex, or urinate on each other (yet another sarcastic urban definition I found),
I noticed the mere suggestion that your son might be engaging in sexual behavior with boys, triggered several other posts.
All of those posts were resistant to the possibility. I think they ALL said they thought it was probably just drugs…as if doing drugs was FAR preferable. Far less frightening. Almost as if they were reassuring you that he's not GAY.. Well maybe he is & maybe he isn't.
May I remind folks that that we have gay posters here? Some of them have posted on this thread.
Also I have a gay/bisexual child. (btw, she's not the one who said "bro showers" are usually gay).
So one can argue that I'm overly sensitive to this, OR that I'm projecting. And you can do that if you like. I'd say it's the former, not the latter. I think I am sensitive to it more now for sure.
But I've come a long way in how I've handled this.
her coming out to me was a BIG deal to me and I had to handle it mostly alone. I cried & , I blamed h for not providing a good enough model for marriage, (and I still struggle with that belief). I also got some help and went to some PFLAG meetings.
Bottom line, I had/have dreams for each of my children, that may need serious adjustments, or releasing....but then, won't we all? Haven't we been facing that same adjustment to or loss of dreams, with our marriages?
But I mostly struggle w/my fears about her being hurt by people who think she's immoral or sick and needs to be fixed. Think of Matthew Shepard...it terrifies me that someone would hurt her.
I recall feeling embarrassed about her sexual preference. I wanted to hide it from family members (still do if they're hateful about it). I recall thinking it reflected poorly on ME that she might be gay.
Then one day when I picked her up at her volunteer job w/autistic children, I realized just what a beautiful compassionate young woman she is. I felt proud of her. And the thought of HER dealing with her own shame as she struggled with this, and all the turmoil she felt & the depression...
At that moment, all of my previous embarrassment, shamed ME...
I hope whatever your son is struggling with Adinva, and it's probably a lot of rejection from your h, I hope that he knows as we do, that he can count on your unyielding love.
((( )))
beautiful post, 25. i am so proud to know you. truly.
and, adinva, your son, whatever he may be dealing with, is blessed to have your unconditional love.
All of those posts were resistant to the possibility. I think they ALL said they thought it was probably just drugs…as if doing drugs was FAR preferable. Far less frightening. Almost as if they were reassuring you that he's not GAY.. Well maybe he is & maybe he isn't.
May I remind folks that that we have gay posters here? Some of them have posted on this thread.
25
No, I'm pretty sure that I do not need your reminder, nor do most people posting on this thread.
The reason, at least for me, is that it is a non issue..
The
GAY issue,as you called it, is a non issue for me. I'm not really concerned if people are gay, pink, redneck, black, white or anything else. They are people....and they hurt, learn, and heal. They need support, and to feel loved, and validated. Their "status" isn't important.
If her son happens to be gay, or experimenting, or flying to the moon in a rowboat....
The issue at hand, is the drug issue...
THAT is why I didn't mention it....
What is the difference between Pity and Empathy?
Does Grace and forgiveness require Empathy?
Interesting points that I haven't ever thought about before.
Empathy - The intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
Pity - sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy.
I don't completely understand.
I am sure people have weighed in and this question is long gone lol, but here are Ruby's definitions:
Empathy: That feeling in your stomach when someone tells you something cuz you yourself have been there done that. You know you understand exactly how it feels
Sympathy: You feel for the person, you want to help, but you are still possibly thinking that their sandwich looks awful good and are wondering if maybe you can have a bite.....
Empathy, you are in it...
Sympathy you are not...
I did not get the vibe that drugs were preferable to gay either...my first thought was a sadness that it was something to be done in a bathroom away from everyone else...like it was illicit
Convo with D13:
D: Mom, how do I know if I like girls or boys?
Me: Well do you want to kiss boys or girls or both?
D: I don't know.
Me: Well, wait another six months until hormones kick in and your body will let you know.
D: Okay, Thanks !
D is very cool kid lol!!
All of those posts were resistant to the possibility. I think they ALL said they thought it was probably just drugs…as if doing drugs was FAR preferable. Far less frightening. Almost as if they were reassuring you that he's not GAY.. Well maybe he is & maybe he isn't.
May I remind folks that that we have gay posters here? Some of them have posted on this thread.
25
No, I'm pretty sure that I do not need your reminder, nor do most people posting on this thread.
The reason, at least for me, is that it is a non issue..
The
GAY issue,as you called it, is a non issue for me. I'm not really concerned if people are gay, pink, redneck, black, white or anything else. They are people....and they hurt, learn, and heal. They need support, and to feel loved, and validated. Their "status" isn't important.
If her son happens to be gay, or experimenting, or flying to the moon in a rowboat....
The issue at hand, is the drug issue...
THAT is why I didn't mention it....
We really need more smileys/emoticons around here, DB admins/mods. It's posts like this one that make me want to reach for the "standing ovation" emoticon.
I think it was nice of 25 to support the feelings of the DBers who might have felt offended by seeming reassurances that my son isn't necessarily gay because he takes showers with his buddies. I saw those comments as just participating in the discussion of what does this mean - does it mean drugs necessarily, or is it a sexual experimentation thing, or is it just boys having harmless fun and being silly - my personal answer is it's probably some of all three and maybe more we didn't think of.
My job as a parent is not to prevent him from being or acting gay - as if we could! - but it is to prevent him from being sexual before he's ready or without being safe, and to prevent him from becoming a drug addict or even a social drug user with an unfortunate conviction that wreaks havoc on his life and dreams.
I think sometimes, like a game of wack-a-mole, that each behavior we discover and shut down will spawn another one we didn't anticipate, until hopefully his own good judgment kicks in.
I appreciate having this wide group of people to draw wisdom and ideas from - so much. I would not have thought that "axe wars" was covering up drug use, but now that I do, by being willing to share that information openly with other people and risk their judging me and my son, I can let some others onto that "secret" and help our (it takes a) village nip this in the bud, no pun intended. Similarly, by being open to hearing whatever you guys have to say, I can learn and share more than I knew before potentially.
I have recently been in the position of looking like a crazy fanatic for standing up for people who might have been offended, or might not, but weren't saying anything about it themselves. I see no harm in 25's lecture, because if you weren't putting down gay people you know that, and if gay people felt put down anyway, 25 stood up for them.
In our house, we've been pretty vocal that we do not judge people based on who they love. We know some of the kids we've watched grow up in and out of our house are going to be gay, just statistically, and they'll be accepted by the adults here no matter what.
The shower thing, like so many things that a pack of teenage boys will do, started out looking like normal goofing around, then precedent was set, then it increased while H and I were scratching our heads about it. Before we figured out there were kids getting high in our house, we never would have thought that's what they might be doing in there. They wear shorts in there. They always have some kind of answer if you ask a question. They're always being silly and funny, and it seemed like just part of that routine, at first. Based on what else is going on though, I'm 100% sure that the bro showers were for the purpose of smoking pot.
the pot scenario sounds far more likely now, Ad. But as I said before, we didn't have enough info to know. Seems we do now.
So how's your son's view on "the big day", now? And are you sharing all of this with your h? Does the amnesty part (which I think I mentioned, I LOVE) apply to him or does your son have your word that what he said that day, is confidential?
I know there are arguments that as his dad, your h has the right to know. I get that. But the priest who married my h and I said 2 helpful things to us when we got married (which is not a lot).
One of them was "deceit is not good in a marriage. But neither is giving your spouse a reason for it, by over reacting to a bad event". He used the dented car as an example and said "so if you go berserk when she dents the car, the next time it happens even if it's not her fault, she may want to hide it from you to avoid a crazy blow up"...
And when it comes to your son being honest with you about his drug use, which is potentially a serious health issue, I could make an argument both ways.
Your h does sound as if his approach DIScourages open communication, to say the least.
That's got to be a challenge for you.
All of those posts were resistant to the possibility. I think they ALL said they thought it was probably just drugs…as if doing drugs was FAR preferable. Far less frightening. Almost as if they were reassuring you that he's not GAY.. Well maybe he is & maybe he isn't.
May I remind folks that that we have gay posters here? Some of them have posted on this thread.
25
No, I'm pretty sure that I do not need your reminder, nor do most people posting on this thread.
The reason, at least for me, is that it is a non issue..
The
GAY issue,as you called it, is a non issue for me.
Um, Where did I call it "the GAY issue"?
And Is it my imagination, or are you angry at me for saying anything about it? If you had said nothing, it wasn't about you.
Besides, I openly admitted to the real possibility of being overly sensitive to the issue.
So Yes, I guess emoticons would be good to have.
Adinva, so sorry for the tangents/hijack .
Um, Where did I call it "the GAY issue"?
And Is it my imagination, or are you angry at me for saying anything about it? If you had said nothing, it wasn't about you.
Besides, I openly admitted to the real possibility of being overly sensitive to the issue.
So Yes, I guess emoticons would be good to have.
Adinva, so sorry for the tangents/hijack .
Considering that YOU were the only one to mention it...
I would say that YOU were the one to put a label on it....
25, I'm not here to argue with you, nor will I..
This is simple for me..
I don't need a lecture, or "reminding", just because I didn't acknowledge, or agree with your theory...
I'm not angry at all, with you, at you, AD, or anyone else.
You called me out, and I answered you...
I respect your opinion, even if I may not agree with it, or acknowledge it... maybe you could do the same
AD, apologies for this....
AD one thing I learned is that u can't do the walk for him but u can walk with him as you have been doing. Chances are that he will turn out fine once he goes through this phase. Kids sometimes behave like a WAS.
So, today I had occasion to try to recap wth happened to my marriage, and I thought I'd post it here. I don't always completely capture my thoughts, some bits and pieces that turn out to be relevant don't make it in, and some words or phrases are misfires, not to mention that my thoughts and emotions change. It's kind of like trying to grab goldfish from a tank.
I thought I was all over the place closer to the beginning of my sitch, and I knew I might eventually settle closer toward some kind of statement that more accurately captured what I thought happened. Here's what I thought happened as of earlier today fwiw (with a little more finetuning since I'm not typing it with my thumb):
I don't know what his beef is really. And he won't give a clue.
He became very secretive after he got work with secret clearance and got interested in guns and all that good guys and bad guys stuff. (This was maybe two years prebomb, and I was alarmed at how he would shut down any questions with "I can't tell you that." He almost seemed to enjoy doing that. I soul searched and decided that I would be the best top secret wife I could and support him and try not to be curious or alarmed.) Now looking back, I think he went from a little OCD (high anxiety over anything not exactly according to his rules or his way) to a little over the edge, like insane. I had to disguise him in our pinewood derby photo for the Cub Scout newsletter to avoid his being associated with our kids in a photo. I went along with this, but it added to unhappiness that was already there.
For my part I think that I was deeply disappointed in my marriage and would not accept that that was okay so I put a happy face on it and made the best of it. I did not know how to accept and give deeply felt love, and so his take-the-good-with-the-bad attitude and his not-very-nice terms of endearment, and his brusque frat boy treatment when I wanted romantic sexy treatment, I accepted as my lot but I did not like it. My fault was not being able to say what I needed, or know what I needed, or wonder how one might learn to do that or why. My fault was thinking that marriage was forever even if it was lousy so don't bother labeling it at all.
And my inability to be enthusiastically loving to him helped increase his withdrawal and the divide became worse and worse. I can clearly recall a handful of events that he responded to with such frozen calm that I felt we'd past a point of no return - one was the night my "love tank" was so low I couldn't bring myself to do more than go through the motions...on his birthday. He was p!ssed but said FINE don't bother, and was a little colder ever since. There were other times like that and I could look back and see they permanently set us back each time. For example I objected to Maxim in the bathroom - my bathroom - and tried to be accommodating and understanding until the boys got old enough to start stealing it from there. I objected again and got FINE. I won't get it anymore. And then the temperature turned down just a little more, irreversibly.
So I didn't behave super well either. I was quick to bicker, quick to challenge his tone and temper, quick to take offense at what and how he said things to me. We became the bickersons. I became lazy, developed an internet habit, very forgetful around the house, passive aggressive. If you can imagine a conversation between us the captions would have been "Well oh yeah? FINE. If you're going to be that way then I'm going to be MORE this way."
I saw this getting worse and worse and I just did not know anything other than tolerate, explain, understand, tolerate. I considered myself a fairly happily married woman and last I heard from him he said he was a happily married man. No point looking deeper.
There were signs of cheating, around 2002 or so, a very close touchy friendship, latenight chatty calls (he never liked talking on the phone to me and often hung up before I was finished talking, so finding him on the phone while folding laundry, chatting away, was alarming.), and more, odd behavior around trips, total drop-off of interest in sex. I just did not know what to do, but we married for life, so put a happy face on it.
And then there are elements of his ways with the kids that are really literally horrible and damaging (ok that is my opinion) and my extreme the other way drove another wedge. He cited to his mom that one of his reasons for leaving was "he didn't like the way I had raised the kids." And looking back this seems unfair, except until you notice that we really didn't and don't seem to be able to work through something - anything - with a common goal, to appreciate what each other brings to the table and negotiate compromise or real agreement. In hindsight it seems to have been either my way or his way, there was no our way. And he tended to back down so I thought I had agreement when he thought I was overruling him and getting my way. So if you see it that way, I did raise the kids and not the way he wanted.
In our entire adult lives together I've never seen him change his mind go back on a decision sincerely apologize (to me or any peer; I ONCE this year heard him apologize to our S12 for calling him a demeaning name and that was a first) or admit an error. He has always been praised for being extremely smart, having extraordinary common sense, knowing things "he knows nothing about," generally just being very very RIGHT all the time. I personally really admired that, and I have heard his friends admire it too. I think being right is integral to his self-identity.
Now, I think he's depressed. He's acted depressed since maybe a whole year before BD, and the almost two years since then. A doctor told him he's not, and he's sticking with that story. But he spent all day in bed after work through most of my kids' middle school time. Maybe he got depressed because of our sitch, because I didn't know how not to aggravate him, because he interpreted our challenges in a way that made him feel less of a man. Maybe depression aggravated our sitch instead. Maybe it's a MLC. Maybe we're just not compatible people. I don't really know.
Because of how he is being, I think no matter what I do it would take a miracle way beyond my control - IN ADDITION TO a clear sense that being with me would be different - for him to change his mind about our marriage.
I have a few reasons to believe he's been cheating for a couple years possibly. My IC is as sweet and kind as I could imagine and she thinks he is a sociopath. He has no empathy, she says, he literally cannot feel for another person.
I'm just trying to do the next best thing every day. DB really helped; i would have stayed in a rotten marriage if it meant winning at this. But over time here that changed. If H could learn to connect emotionally, and wanted to, I would see hope for a future for us, but I wont spend my kids' high school years in a futile waiting game. I will show them when its time to fold your cards and go on, with love, regret, and hopefully compassion.
Love you Ad
How amazing you are....
well....WOW.
I think you said your story just fine. Very clear. Humbling, sad, and strong.
And in a way, hopeful.
((( )))
Ad,
do you have a timeline in mind, or maybe an internal one?
It's not a suggestion, just a question.
Yeah, I do. I'm struggling to find the time to respond to the separation agreement he gave me in November. I have to tell him,
1. I want to buy his share of the house
2. I will need spousal support and for more than the five years he said he'd not pay anything after
3. Child support is not optional
4. I think he should contribute toward sport and other special child expenses until age 18 as well as college or trade school after that.
5. We need to agree on the date of our separation. He put it 5/1/11, and I could argue it was 12/9/12. Whenever it was, we can't be legally divorced until a year after that.
The rest is pretty much agreeable but those are big areas we're apart on.
Anyway, once that is signed I'll suggest that he should go ahead and file for divorce immediately. It isn't healthy for him to be hanging out in limbo with this hanging over his head; he's clearly concerned about money and he has no place to live. I'm in my home with my dog and kids; my life has changed a lot less than his has so far. It isn't healthy for me to be sitting here hoping we might get back together. We should finish this and move on with our lives.
I would prefer it be him because I did not choose this and didn't want it, and I don't want the record to make it look like I did. But if he doesn't want to file and doesn't want to work on the marriage either, then I'll go ahead and do it.
Based on that, not knowing how the court system might delay it, I guess I'll be divorced sometime in the next 3 to 9 months.
Yeah, I do. I'm struggling to find the time to respond to the separation agreement he gave me in November. I have to tell him,
1. I want to buy his share of the house
^^can you financially do this?
2. I will need spousal support and for more than the five years he said he'd not pay anything after
well the Judge might not agree with your h...you know, b/c of the law and all.... I assume there is a disparity in income levels, right? They'll factor that in. Your L can give you a good idea of expected numbers.
3. Child support is not optional
absolutely correct^^. Surely he knows that. Right?
4. I think he should contribute toward sport and other special child expenses until age 18 as well as college or trade school after that.
your youngest has a learning disability, correct? So that's very doable for extras...I think the college or trade school issues will be negotiable. That does not mean you lose, but that it's negotiable.
It's not unusual for each parent to contribute a third and the child to pay/borrow a third.
IF there is a discrepancy in incomes (so he earns noticeably more than you do) this won't be complex. He can pretend it is, but it's not. Virginia is an equitable division state & you have a special needs child, plus an athlete who might SAVE you college money by playing...
at least document the costs of his sports/transportation, etc. I know our d15's basketball playing is an EASY $2k a year (yeah, two thousand)...thank God she's not playing hockey.
5. We need to agree on the date of our separation. He put it 5/1/11, and I could argue it was 12/9/12. Whenever it was, we can't be legally divorced until a year after that.
I assume there's an advantage to you, to making it later, correct? Is it also more accurate?
The rest is pretty much agreeable but those are big areas we're apart on.
if he believes child support is optional, Ad, that's a pretty darn big area to not agree on. In cases like that, where the law is clearly with you, I think him seeing a lawyer will do you both a world of good. It's called reality therapy.
Anyway, once that is signed I'll suggest that he should go ahead and file for divorce immediately. It isn't healthy for him to be hanging out in limbo with this hanging over his head; he's clearly concerned about money and he has no place to live. I'm in my home with my dog and kids; my life has changed a lot less than his has so far. It isn't healthy for me to be sitting here hoping we might get back together. We should finish this and move on with our lives.
well, I mostly care about the highlighted areas^^ but I believe you're sincerely concerned for his well being with your comments. I get it. You're at that place in the road, where you are ready to cross over. No judgement here.
You have the right to be happy and the right to move forward. No more stuckville, w/population, "you".
So then the timeline is...what?
I would prefer it be him because I did not choose this and didn't want it, and I don't want the record to make it look like I did. But if he doesn't want to file and doesn't want to work on the marriage either, then I'll go ahead and do it.
Based on that, not knowing how the court system might delay it, I guess I'll be divorced sometime in the next 3 to 9 months.
well it's all very sad. As for "the record"...hmmm. Think about it. Ad, if "the record" said you hit him, or cheated on him, I could see caring.
But you know what? No one will see the "record" of when someone filed for something...or why. AND YOU know the truth. Your sons know the truth and at some level, maybe, even your h knows.
AND if he does not know the truth by now, he never will and nothing the record says will change that. Clearly, HE has his own record.
I just love that you know limbo will end.
Within the constraints that circumstances have imposed on you, you are at least exercising choice. Good for you, (but yes it still sukks.)
AD the earlier he says the separation is makes it more beneficial for him when it comes to your share of his retirement.
^^good point...and the longer the m, the more "long term" the m is. Which helps you. Plus it's true anyhow, right?
Yes, we passed our 19th anniversary while he was still living in our house, doing our laundry, eating our meals, and sleeping in our bed. Our 20th anniversary will be next November. In May 2011 I didn't even know we weren't happily married so that's just plain not going to be the date. December 2012 is when he moved out, we told our kids, and began to tell neighbors/parents and act like we were separated.
His proposal I believe assumed that I financially couldn't afford to buy the house yet (and also protected his interest in the future increased value of it). So it was that he pay the mortgage and continue owning half of the house. In his math the mortgage is approximately equal to child support plus about $300/month, so he'd pay it for five years and then we'd sell the house and split it in half. S12 will be about 18 then, so according to this plan, he contributes financially both child support and spousal, until the youngest is 18, and then cashes out and is done.
On principle, I do not want to co-own a house with my X. I have a letter of approval for a loan in the necessary amount to buy him out. I will be able to afford the mortgage and our other family expenses IF I have the $1700/mo child support dictated by the charts in Virginia PLUS a little bit more. Something like about $350/mo will enable me to pay the bills and scrape by, not starve but definitely not live at the level we've been living at.
My initial thinking is that typically I could expect support for 10 years, not 5, due to the length of our marriage. I'd like to take that second half of potential spousal support and reduce it from his equity so he can have his wish of being done in 5 years.
When I'm overwhelmed I procrastinate. I'm getting a lot of other stuff done, so don't think I'm spending my days hiding in bed under the covers, but you can see with this separation agreement that I'm frozen in fear. Have to block some time to formulate my response to his proposal.
Perhaps you can help me with this: Is it better to come back to him with a completely fleshed out counterproposal with numbers plugged in? Or is it better to tell him to go back to the drawing board removing the assumption that we'll co-own the house, and be more realistic about the spousal support number? And - at what point do I tell him the house needs to be sold, whether it be to him, to me, or to a buyer, but I prefer it be to me? What if he says no to me buying it? If he says yes, should I get the refi started now or wait till the separation agreement is agreed to and signed?
The fact of the matter is, our mortgage is less than a 2BR apt in our school district. I will afford it because I have no better alternatives. So it may not be jumping the gun to get the process started no matter how our separation agreement pans out. I don't know.
Regarding sports and college, in an exploratory conversation with H I learned his current position is that child support to age 18 is intended to cover anything they might need, and if I want them to have more it's up to me to figure out how to pay it out of the state mandated child support. Regarding college he sees the child declaring emancipation as a viable alternative, and also not going to college as a viable alternative. I like the 1/3-1/3-1/3 idea; is that written into separation agreements or negotiated when the time comes? I'm leery of waiting until the time comes because I'll be ancient history then; he's sort of trying to get along now and may have no incentive to THEN.
Ignore the actual numbers, there are typos in there. I think child support is closer to $1300/mo, plus about $350/mo would get you to our mortgage amount. Anyway that's probably irrelevant detail.
All of those posts were resistant to the possibility. I think they ALL said they thought it was probably just drugs…as if doing drugs was FAR preferable. Far less frightening. Almost as if they were reassuring you that he's not GAY.. Well maybe he is & maybe he isn't.
May I remind folks that that we have gay posters here? Some of them have posted on this thread.
25
No, I'm pretty sure that I do not need your reminder, nor do most people posting on this thread.
The reason, at least for me, is that it is a non issue..
The
GAY issue,as you called it, is a non issue for me. I'm not really concerned if people are gay, pink, redneck, black, white or anything else. They are people....and they hurt, learn, and heal. They need support, and to feel loved, and validated. Their "status" isn't important.
If her son happens to be gay, or experimenting, or flying to the moon in a rowboat....
The issue at hand, is the drug issue...
THAT is why I didn't mention it....
^^^THIS^^^ for me too.
Thanks for posting that analysis -- it feels to me like folks on this board go through an evolution where in the initial shock we take on too much of the blame for what has gone wrong. Over the course of a year or more I think the blinders come off a bit and we say "hey, I wasn't *that* bad".
That doesn't negate the value of the work we do on ourselves. People usually only change in response to crisis, so this crisis is an opportunity for self-discovery and self-improvement, but that process doesn't mean that you weren't "good enough for marriage" before, because chances are we all were.
Any marriage is going to have ups and downs and tension, people are imperfect. Over time we settle into equilibrium that is reached as a reflection of both of our idiosyncrasies, insecurities, and how we are used to being treated.
I enjoyed the discussion from RockJC about unconditional love. From my time here, I don't believe that unconditional love is enough to keep a marriage going. You can unconditionally love your former spouse, or someone you don't want to live with. It can certainly be enough for a marriage of convenience, but not for the kind of marriage that keeps both partners fulfilled.
I believe that successful marriage requires 3 things (1) emotionally healthy partners, (2) mutual attraction, and (3) commitment to and respect for the marriage. I think in many cases I read about here, it's the attraction that has evaporated for the WAS -- I think that's the real message behind ILYBINILWY.
Initially I thought "in love" was the butterflies in the stomach feeling of a new infatuation, and that it was natural and normal for that to diminish and fade, and that it was not a required ingredient for a successful marriage. After a considerable amount of time, I've come to believe that this "in love" feeling is different from "long term attraction", and it's the loss of the latter that the WAS is really talking about.
Although MWD doesn't talk about that specifically, I think that the practices of "act-as-if" and GAL are designed to re-kindle attraction. I think it's the attraction that motivates the willingness to work on the marriage and the willingness to compromise, versus the perceived obligation of unconditional love. It's the fuel for the fire so to speak. I'm not talking about physical attraction (although that may be part of it for some), I'm talking about feeling attracted to your spouse for a wide variety of reasons -- intellect, humor, compassion, a broad range of things -- it's the desire to "be with" this person. That feeling is good, and it's worth fighting to protect.
I think if you find yourself in a scenario where your spouse's attraction is gone or diminished, it tends to lead you to behaviors that make you even less attractive, and you start a very negative cycle of self-reinforcement. There are a minority of books that approach addressing marriage problems from this perspective, but I don't think any have really cracked the "re-create attraction" dilemma.
My biggest fear going through this process has been that if our marriage ends in D, that I will not find another person who I will feel as attracted to as I do to my W. My MC said that in the case of divorce, there are 3 scenarios:
1) 2 healthy people who just made a bad decision to be together and amicably separate. He said this is exceedingly rare.
2) 1 healthy person and one unhealthy person where the unhealthy person's destructive behavior or emotional limitations eventually drive the marriage apart.
3) 2 unhealthy people where their mutual issues create a situation that is more or less doomed from the start.
He said that second marriage statistics are so dismal because the pool of "divorced" people tends to be 3:1 unhealthy to healthy. Unfortunately, the unhealthy partner generally views the "other spouse" as the root of all the trouble and won't do the work to become healthy, so the cycle repeats.
He said that if you exit a marriage as the healthy partner, OR as a formerly unhealthy person who has been willing to do the work to become emotionally healthy, then there is no reason at all to expect that you can't find a wonderful second marriage that will last -- provided that you've learned to avoid hooking up with unhealthy people.
From that perspective, I think the people who have found their way here, have gone through the self-discovery process and really committed to improving themselves are truly blessed, despite all the pain and hardship that the situation has caused. You come out of this, Adinva, as a much more self-actualized person, with much better relationship tools than you had coming in. I believe that will increase your capacity for happiness as well as your ability to achieve it for the rest of your life, regardless of what happens with H, and that is a gift.
Accuray
Thank you for that post Accuray. This place has truly been a blessing.
Ad, you are a wonderful and amazingly strong woman. I am fascinated to read how you have developed your self awareness and your growth and understanding of your sitch and your H. Your kids are blessed to have a mother like you and anyone that has the honor of knowing you is blessed as well.
Hi Acc. Beautifully written, thank you so much! I would "ditto" the whole thing. I would also comment that I am happy. I'm happier than I've been in a while, because I have tools I didn't know I had for when things don't go the way I want them to, and because I don't see my happiness as dependent on a specific person's behavior or feelings anymore, and because while I always thought things tended to slip from good to bad I now see how they can go from bad to good. I have more hope. I have to credit DB forums for a lot of that because I was really enmeshed with my H's moods and behavior and felt nearly destroyed by his rejection at first, EVEN THOUGH I've always been a really strong independent person with good self esteem. I had a few things wrong and this board helped set me on a better track.
Acc though, I'm going to call out something you slipped in the middle that I don't believe:
My biggest fear going through this process has been that if our marriage ends in D, that I will not find another person who I will feel as attracted to as I do to my W.
Cross that bridge when you come to it. I feel like I know you and her pretty well from all this time; we joined at almost the same time after all, way back. You have worked SO hard to maintain your attraction to her that I don't know if you realize there will be people you don't have to work so hard with. I think the challenge of her unique spin has kept you in work-hard mode, and of course you're not a man to look around for better alternatives. Do not act from that fear you stated, Acc. You are a real catch, and your relationships don't need to be so hard. Do what you're doing, for as long as it's the right thing to do. I would never tell you not to. But don't worry for a minute that you couldn't be attracted to someone else, once your heart knows your relationship with W is done and becomes open to others I believe you'll have no problem.
I just wanted to say, reading your threads and everything you post gives me such hope. To see what you have gone/going through and that you have chosen to move towards a happier you is inspiring.
I love what you just wrote above:
"I was really enmeshed with my H's moods and behavior and felt nearly destroyed by his rejection at first, EVEN THOUGH I've always been a really strong independent person with good self esteem. I had a few things wrong and this board helped set me on a better track."
This is exactly how I feel. I'm just at the beginning, but I already feel like I'm on a better track.
Hey Busting, thank you so much. I don't feel deserving of such words but they sure make me feel good. The act of writing my thoughts here has been my way of really examining them and holding them up to gauge their accuracy. It's really nice to know people are here reading and care. Thank you.
Adinva,
I want you to know that child support is considered to be all the support he has to give. I learned this the hard way when during talks we just agreed to split auto insurance cost, sports, camps etc. However, as that is not written in the final docs.....he doesn't have to provide anymore than the CS obligation. Lesson learned!
With two teenagers driving you can imagine that my insurance is very high. Plus the cost of senior year and teenagers. But I go without so the can have what they need.
He has not even bought a pencil for either one of our kids. AND since S has turned 18 .....nothing.
We are currently back in court of Post secondary education expenses. He makes almost $200,000 per year so I can't imagine why he won't help!
Oy...
Thanks Ad for sharing your challenges as you navigate thru this D negotiation process and to 25, sandycay and everyone for the wise advice and personal experiences they are sharing as well.
I am also in the midst of such painful negotiations with my H and we have similar financial discrepancies as Ad and her H, so I am learning a lot from this.
(((((Ad)))))
Yes, we passed our 19th anniversary while he was still living in our house, doing our laundry, eating our meals, and sleeping in our bed. Our 20th anniversary will be next November. In May 2011 I didn't even know we weren't happily married so that's just plain not going to be the date.
December 2012 is when he moved out, we told our kids, and began to tell neighbors/parents and act like we were separated.
then you have corroboration of the date. He doesn't. Correct? His proposal I believe assumed that I financially couldn't afford to buy the house yet (and also protected his interest in the future increased value of it). So it was that he pay the mortgage and continue owning half of the house. In his math the mortgage is approximately equal to child support plus about $300/month, so he'd pay it for five years and then we'd sell the house and split it in half. S12 will be about 18 then, so according to this plan, he contributes financially both child support and spousal, until the youngest is 18, and then cashes out and is done.
That was his "generous" way of "letting" you keep the house. But it's a good thing you can do your own math. And make sure the 12 y/o has thoroughly DOCUMENTED special needs.
On principle, I do not want to co-own a house with my X.
Coming from you, that does not sound punitive, but like a healthy boundary. And I would not want him to be my "business partner" either.
I have a letter of approval for a loan in the necessary amount to buy him out. I will be able to afford the mortgage and our other family expenses IF I have the $1700/mo child support dictated by the charts in Virginia PLUS a little bit more. Something like about $350/mo will enable me to pay the bills and scrape by, not starve but definitely not live at the level we've been living at.
Well if you are waiving the right to his pension, AND OR NOT dividing all of the retirement accounts, that ought to be doable but is it advisable?
My initial thinking is that typically I could expect support for 10 years, not 5, due to the length of our marriage. I'd like to take that second half of potential spousal support and reduce it from his equity so he can have his wish of being done in 5 years.
SOMETIMES you can get lifetime spousal support for a m as long as yours. But I guess if your L has told you what to expect and you work, then, that's that. My recall was that you'd get it for life OR until you remarried....but that info is old.When I'm overwhelmed I procrastinate. I'm getting a lot of other stuff done, so don't think I'm spending my days hiding in bed under the covers, but you can see with this separation agreement that
I'm frozen in fear. Have to block some time to formulate my response to his proposal.
Honey, the worst case scenario is BETTER THAN HIS proposal. So your fears are NOT reality based...at least have realistic fears...
his "5 year plan" (like Stalin had) is not realistic. What's YOUR Lawyer telling you? Do you trust him/her? Perhaps you can help me with this: Is it better to come back to him with a
completely fleshed out counterproposal with numbers plugged in? Or is it better to tell him to go back to the drawing board removing the assumption that we'll co-own the house, and be more realistic about the spousal support number?
I suggest you do the above, it's a counter proposal. Like ALL business negotiations, do not begin with your bottom line; ask for more than you expect to get but within reason. Letting him come back with yet another silly proposal of 3% higher numbers will delay things and irritate him, IMO.
Just Don't infuriate him w/crazy requests (though maybe he'll think anything beyond HIS plans are infuriating)
but do ask for all of what you want, and then,
be prepared to negotiate the difference. And - at what point do I tell him the house needs to be sold, whether it be to him, to me, or to a buyer, but I prefer it be to me?
What if he says no to me buying it? If he says yes, should I get the refi started now or wait till the separation agreement is agreed to and signed?
MAYBE but ask the L and maybe a realtor, if you can Let him know the house ought to be sold, though you'd be "open" to buying him out-don't show all your cards...and why NOT start the refin work now? I mean, is there an advantage to waiting -like having more certainty of numbers or what?The fact of the matter is, our mortgage is less than a 2BR apt in our school district. I will afford it because I have no better alternatives
. So it may not be jumping the gun to get the process started no matter how our separation agreement pans out. I don't know.
um, it seems you DO know. Look at your words.^^^ Go ahead.Regarding sports and college, in an exploratory conversation with H I learned his current position is that child support to age 18 is intended to cover anything they might need,
and if I want them to have more it's up to me to figure out how to pay it out of the state mandated child support.
well I believe he's incorrect. Really....Ask your Virginia lawyer... I'm confident that your son's learning problems are added costs for both parents.
As for sports, I guess some of it depends on how much your h values his r with his son. Does he really not give a damn? Doesn't he know that your son will notice NOT having money for Lacrosse?
And You MIGHT tell him he could start saving for his son's sports, by not spending on OW's toys (I'm teasing...sort of...)
Regarding college he sees the child declaring emancipation as a viable alternative, and also not going to college as a viable alternative. I like the 1/3-1/3-1/3 idea; is that written into separation agreements or negotiated when the time comes?
Your h sure has self serving "Beliefs". Did HE pay for his own college? I did but it's harder to do so now.
Anyhow, I've seen college agreements in writing OR agreed to later. Also might mandate it be a state school b/c you don't want to HAVE to pay for a third of NYU...(tell your son to STUDY MORE, party less!!)
For YOU, given your son's feelings about his dad and how we don't think it'll improve SOON, maybe you ought to get something in writing now IF you can...maybe trade off for a year of support or a tiny % of pension...
did you know you can get probably some of his pension? How long has he worked at his department? Whatever years there overlap with marital time, are divisible.What about 401ks? IRAs, etc.?
If he won't agree now, don't get a bad agreement, IN WRITING...just leave it alone then and hope he cares more later. As you know from my sitch, the kids feelings don't fade so fast...
Again, I'd defer to the Virginia L on this one. But my div siblings live in your state, one sister and 2 brothers. ALL 3 paid for some of their child's college and it was 1/3-
EXCEPT 1 sil paid a bit more b/c she earned more than that particular brother. The other brother, who pays 1/3, has...wait for it...SEVEN DAUGHTERS and he's paying 1/3. One d isn't going to college to his disappointment, but her wedding costs what an Ivy degree would cost... 
Guess your h could be glad you don't have d's...
I'm leery of waiting until the time comes because I'll be ancient history then
; he's sort of trying to get along now and may have no incentive to THEN.
Good points! And do you believe he loves your son? I think you do. So, how can you appeal to his loving father side? What positives motivate your h?
PS
SandyCay I'm so sorry you were told you could not get more than CS in Washington state or wherever you live. I don't know how long you were married or other factors.
But in Virginia, Adinva can get CS and alimony under certain circumstances. Length of marriage, differences in income, children, the children's own needs, are some of the factors in determing the amount of alimony.
But in Virginia, Adinva can get CS and alimony under certain circumstances. Length of marriage, differences in income, children, the children's own needs, are some of the factors in determing the amount of alimony.
Yep....
Something to think about though....
If you take it all as CS...it isn't taxable,
Alimony is...
Go for BOTH, and settle down to CS only, at a slightly higher rate...???
Jus sayin...
Adinva,
I want you to know that child support is considered to be all the support he has to give. I learned this the hard way when during talks we just agreed to split auto insurance cost, sports, camps etc. However, as that is not written in the final docs.....he doesn't have to provide anymore than the CS obligation. Lesson learned!
With two teenagers driving you can imagine that my insurance is very high. Plus the cost of senior year and teenagers. But I go without so the can have what they need.
He has not even bought a pencil for either one of our kids. AND since S has turned 18 .....nothing.
We are currently back in court of Post secondary education expenses. He makes almost $200,000 per year so I can't imagine why he won't help!
Reading that just made me ashamed to be a man. My W and I are going through divorce mediation right now and my boys are older. I cannot imagine not paying for things for them. My oldest is 23 and I still help him out financially and I probably will for the rest of my life. I don't understand why some "men" do this to their children and I use the word men loosely because to me they aren't men at all.
AD are you waiving your right to his retirement and if so why? I asked my W if she would waive her rights to my retirement in exchange for me waiving my right to half the house. She said no so I'm staying in the house and when I sell it I will give her her half.
If I were you I would hand him a counter proposal with your numbers. I haven't read your posts in a long time but are you doing everything through lawyers or are you going the mediation route like my W and I are?
25 ~ I get child support and spousal for 5 years. We were married 19 years.
I got a great settlement, I am not complaining. It's just frustrating that he confuses spousal support with that means I provide the kids with all the extras. AND since he is to busy and has nothing to do with them....I need them to drive, go to camps (so I can get a break) etc.
We just kind of verbally agreed I would take on the extra expense of one kid and he would take the other...this was before he went all mean.
I just remembered....adultery is grounds for divorce in Virginia...(see? An upside to everything!
)
and sometimes, it counts even while separated...just sayin'
A few quick things:
the retirement account wd be split 50/50.
There is no pension (contractor not fed)
One yr sep is also grounds in VA; i was told by my L that adultery wd b meaningless to the court.
H makes about twice what i make and has a benefits pkg; i have no benefits.
I work part time; L says the court would probably base my spousal support on a fulltime extrapolation of what i earn. H resents that hes been subsidizing me in the years ive been home with the kids after school. i told L that with whats been going on the is NO way i'm going fulltime till the kids are in college; he said he wd ordinarily advise it but saw my point.
Started a new thread:
Life, continued