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Posted By: Denver_2010 Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 07:56 PM
I just posted the following after an update on my Piecing thread. I want to share it here on Newcomers though because it may help. When we first come here, we generally focus on how bad we were during our M, and how perfect our S is. Obviously no one is perfect, and no one is completely bad. Problems in a M occur as a result of the actions of TWO people. Never just one.

I don't want anyone here to take this as me saying that I regret DBing. I do NOT. I don't regret it at all. It is one of the best things that ever happened to me. I just have had a chance to look back, in hindsight, and see the forest from the trees, so to speak.

From my piecing thread...

...I have been doing a lot of thinking about the past couple of years. Things look much different in hindsight than they do when you are in the mist of them. I have many thoughts that I want to share with everyone here. Especially those that are just beginning this process.

I hope to come back and expand on this more, but the bottom line is that what I went through during my S is a once in a lifetime deal for me. While I am happier than I can put into words that I have a second chance to make my M work, I don't believe that I would go through what I did again. I see now that I was not the sole cause of the breakdown in our M. I put W on a pedestal during my sitch, and I think that I really minimized her flaws. I love her to death, but she is not perfect and she is difficult to get along with at times. I TOTALLY put those things out of my mind during my S.

I'm NOT recanting anything that I came to acknowledge about myself, nor the problems taht I caused. I'm just saying that I see how things came to be the way that they were. There is no question that W and I would slip back into that misery if both of us were not committed to NOT having that happen. And it is WORK. It really, really is. No matter how much change you make, no matter how much self discovery you do, it is work. I'm glad that I went through it, I'm glad that I made that choice, and I'm happy that I have that second chance. But I wouldn't do it again. It was too hard and too painful. And I was too hard on myself.

Just some thoughts that I have looking back.

Denver
Posted By: Intact Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 07:59 PM
Wow thanks for sharing this and congratulations.

I only hope one day I get another opportunity with my W - it just doesn't even seem possible or likely at the moment though.
Posted By: needgrace Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 08:16 PM
Thank you Denver for sharing that, it is helpful to hear your perspective now. I wish you much happiness. smile
Posted By: ForeverYoung Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 08:17 PM
Wow Denver, thanks for the drop in!

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
I see now that I was not the sole cause of the breakdown in our M. I put W on a pedestal during my sitch, and I think that I really minimized her flaws. I love her to death, but she is not perfect and she is difficult to get along with at times. I TOTALLY put those things out of my mind during my S.


But don't we kinda have to do this if we want to save the M, since we are the only one working on it and our spouse is not interested AT ALL? (well, maybe not the pedestal so much, but definitely the putting their flaws out of our minds thing)

Do you see your marriage surviving if you DIDN'T do as you posted above?
Posted By: Spartan Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 09:18 PM
Still following your piecing threads but good to see you over here helping out. What you say is very important and something I get called out on daily.

Couple things that have been recently told to me.

You can only be responsible for 100% of 50% of the things wrong with your marriage.

Dealing with/going through the bad times, makes the good times even better
Posted By: Tallula Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 09:45 PM
Thanks for your insight!!!

This is actually sonething my councilor and I spoke about last night. While I take full responcibility for my actions, H has 50% in this too. I am changing the things within myself that I see as problems. Many match with his complaints, some things are simply not my responcibility. I will not take that on. I don't say this in an angry way, it's simply the truth. H is very angry. He blames me for his A one minute, himself the next.

I say this so that I hold my head high and set boundaries when my H is being hurtful. If I tried to take on all the blame, my guilt would allow me to accept the abuse with my tail between my legs. We are separated. It's a good thing. Space! The only way this M will work Is for the both of us to work hard. Bit i dont want my old M. I have no idea how long I'll stand, but I'm standing here now. I
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 10:09 PM
Denver, I've made similar comments in threads regarding my own sitch. It's interesting that while the WAS rewrites history to where they remember nothing but the bad in the M, the LBS does the opposite- we rewrite history to remember nothing but the good about the WAS. I've read many sitches in piecing where the WAS returns and suddenly the LBS has to struggle with things that they completely suppressed while trying to draw the WAS back- mainly the WAS's faults. Few marriages fall apart because one spouse did everything right while the other did everything wrong. Most fall apart because both spouses quit working on the R. DB'ing rightly focuses us on correcting what we were doing wrong in the M, but we have to set aside what our spouse did wrong and if reconciling happens then all those issues come bubbling back up again. In DB'ing we bring ourselves much closer to being a perfect spouse, but if the WAS comes back, guess what, they weren't DBing at all while they were gone, LOL!

Anyway, yours is great input from someone in piecing!
Posted By: Starsky309 Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 10:53 PM
Great thread idea, Denver. I think one of the common mistakes that LBSs make is that they take on the ENTIRE BURDEN of trying to "fix" everything, and operate from a basic assumption that they MUST have been a horse-*$%t spouse for their spouse to do this to them.

While it's true that in probably 75-85% of the cases there were significant contributions on the part of the LBS which made conditions ripe for their spouse's affair, there are a good 15-25% of the time where it was really a GOOD marriage. So that's point #1.

Point #2 is I often see LBS (especially men, since we are naturally "fixers"!) scurry around and immediately try to address all of their wayward wives' complaints. The problem of this (and it's a big one) is that it's often a b.s. "list" that they're working on, as a spouse caught up in an affair will often (always?) "re-write marital history" to justify their current behavior. I don't agree with much of the MLC folks, but I do like their concept of "work on those items that 'sting'" -- those complaints that your spouse gives you that YOU know are legitimately things that you need to work on . . . things that pre-dated their affair (if there is infidelity involved in your sitch).

Something you and I both share is this realization that we put our wives on pedestals before -- the whole "princess" thing. It was actually my WIFE that told me that THIS WASN'T HEALTHY, and that I needed to see her for who she was, flaws and all!!!

Anyway, great thread.


Starsky
Posted By: Lovemyfamily Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 11:19 PM
Thank you for the insight, Denver.

I'm only 4 months into S, but I do see that most of the time with DB I feel like I need to overlook any of his flaws. I might come here to vent about them but would never say anything to him. But I have thought about if he comes back, would he make any changes? Or would I be back to complaining about priorities, etc?

Thanks for sharing
Posted By: Breakdown Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 11:37 PM
Thanks for sharing Denver (and others). To me, it seems like a natural cycle. We try and try to get our S's back on board, we work on ourselves and tackle our demons, and eventually, we get to a point where we see our S and say "Hey, I still want this M to work...but you're going to have to make some changes too."

For me, I've known all along that W was going to have to severe communication with OM completely before I would be in it for the long haul, but I've been sitting around waiting for her to want to work on the M before forcing the issue. Lately, I've been really thinking of just drawing a hardline and stop screwing with her until she decides one way or the other. We're only a few months from D at this point, and she's been content to keep me in limbo up til now.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/26/13 11:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
But I wouldn't do it again. It was too hard and too painful. And I was too hard on myself.

Thanks for sharing!
I find the above interesting.
Have you heard of NO PAIN - NO GAIN.

I understand what you are saying that it was hard and PAINFUL but I believe no matter what relationship you would have in the future, with anyone, your wife or someone else, you would eventually have to make those hard changes.

There would be no avoiding them.
Posted By: Jeack Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 02/27/13 09:04 PM
this was a very insiteful thread. I agree with Denver cause i had a second chance a year ago, then held in resent towards my wife because I changed and she didn't at all which is why i'm going thru it again one year later. Cadet is also very true in saying that no matter the relationship changes within need to be made to better yourself.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/12/13 10:52 PM
I'm sorry that I've disappeared. It is crazy how busy things are right now. Another hindsight revelation... I wish that I had enjoyed the 'life vacation' that I took for 18 months while my W was away. It was a good opportunity to just let my mind rest and I didn't use it.

Anyway, I do want to reply to everything that everyone has posted, and I will. I just can't right now.

Everything is going really well with W. The best that it's been in a couple of months actually.

Thanks for everyone's support. Be back soon!
Posted By: adinva Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/13/13 07:07 PM
Quote:
Great thread idea, Denver. I think one of the common mistakes that LBSs make is that they take on the ENTIRE BURDEN of trying to "fix" everything, and operate from a basic assumption that they MUST have been a horse-*$%t spouse for their spouse to do this to them.

I would disagree that this is a mistake. I've been told once or twice that I was being too hard on myself and should be aware that this is partially H's fault. Believe me I was aware of that. What I did not have outside of the boards was anyone willing to force me to take a hard look at myself. That's what you get here. When you say they take on the ENTIRE burden I say that is necessary and inevitable because they are the one trying to improve their relationship, the only one. The entire burden that will get picked up, is going to be picked up by them. It's tough but it's life. At the time they join here their WAS is not going to pick up any of the burden, so are you going to make it a game of chicken or are you going to get busy on your own stuff? And no harm in improving things that didn't actually end up being the cause of your WAS. Why do the minimum?

It is not productive to reassure yourself that it's not all your fault. It is productive to stop beating yourself up over your faults and start working on them.

And about it being HARD and PAINFUL and not something you'd go back and do again? Probably 50% of us here are moms, ask us about childbirth one day. I would absolutely do this again if it becomes necessary, and I think you would too. Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/13/13 07:18 PM
^^^THIS^^^^

No one in my life is telling me to look within (except my AA/Alanon sponcor. That's something not many have here) In fact, anyone who hears I am thinks I'm nuts.

My IC, was floored when I told her that I was taking this time to look at the faults within myself. She sat for a minute, said "Ok, I just have to say, most people in your situation will just be angry and point that the spouse." Later, when I found DR, I told her about it. She is very pro-marriage and honestly, she has more hope for my M than I do at this point. She thinks that H can be faithful one day, due to his willingness to look at himself. Ok...waaaaay off topic....ha

I'm only a 4 months in. Geez...4 months. Seems longer. Anyway, I have no idea how long I will stand, but I'm grateful that I've looked within. So far, I'm better for it.
Posted By: keep_going Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/13/13 07:33 PM
I agree with both Ad and Tallula 100%. I also see how I sometimes beat myself up, but I'd rather be there than get stuck in victimhood, like I was.

The reason we look inside is not to fix our marriage, it is so we can fix what is wrong within ourselves so we can improve ALL our relationships, starting with the one with the person looking back at us in the mirror.
Posted By: LITB Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 01:43 AM
I'm willing to bet a high percentage of new members own most, if not all the burden of the collapse of the M/R. I know that I certainly did when I began DB'ing. Now I know better.

I have grown tremendously as a person and my W still finds herself struggling to admit that she has a lot of work in front of her.

Anyhow, there is a BIG difference from a LBS owning a lot of the burden of the collapse of the M/R and a LBS doing the work to look within to address the necessary issues in hopes of a reconciled M/R......without any guarantees. Yeah, it all [censored] and personally, I am a better person today than I was over 2 years ago.

So my changes were necessary and the BIG D motivated me to make changes that otherwise might not have happened.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 02:22 AM
I cannot imagine wanting to work on ME if I had not taken on the one thing I could control, which is me.

I mean, if we try to assess/assign blame too early, we'll wallow in our victimhood. AND when we are the LBSer, it's too easy to do that.

I did put my h not so much on my pedestal but the stupid focus (sorry) on MLC that goes at length about how their childhood causes this is, to me crap.

I had already been to a T for my childhood issues (Essential Experience workshop AND SO DID H!)

so that was sort of a bite of an irrelevant apple. I now think that h convinced himself that what he wanted, he deserved b/c he works hard and always has gotten what he wanted.

When it didn't pay off, he missed us and wanted us back. THE END...far as HE is concerned.

But I had to DO SOMETHING with my life other than wait for him to decide. SO I GAL and I mean, big time GAL.

and worked on me so I'd be happier and much much LESS angry.

That all helped too.

My concern Denver, is not men like you at all. I know you are a better person for this.

My concern is the men who are SO HAPPY to say "it's HER wacky stuff" and women who want to say "My h is in MLC"

and none of them seeing how that keeps them where they are, losing their family. They ought to own up to all they can and work their butts off to become people only a fool would leave,

and later on, assess reality more. That takes time.
Posted By: Brian in Hville Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 03:30 PM
What up Denver!!! I hear ya. Though it didn't work out for me and the ex, I did come to realize that it took two people to get to where we were. I put way too much blame on myslef. But at the time, all we wanted was our lives back. Because we went through the DB process, we came out better...Better for ourselves and our future. For that, I would go through it again. But then I didn't have near as much to go through as someone like you or Pete. Nice to hear from you again!

Brian
Posted By: reb9597 Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 04:26 PM
Originally Posted By: keep_going
I agree with both Ad and Tallula 100%.


I was in huge victim mode. Still find myself fighting victim status. Maybe it depends on how WAH handled leaving. I worked hard after he left on improving myself and I felt good about the changes I was making. BUT I was challenged here to accept my part and I'm glad for it. My IC didn't challenged me in that way, I actually accused her of that at last appt. Asked her why she didn't point this out to me sooner? (WAH left 8+ months ago!) And she just said I wasn't ready. Maybe I wasn't.

It's never a guarantee that the WAS will do the work necessary to have a thriving marriage. In my case and most, it's not even a guarantee that they'll want to try. I hope, denver, that you continue to have happiness in your M and it will all be worth it in the end.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 04:44 PM
This was ironic because I posted similar "a couple years out" thoughts on Adinva's thread yesterday.

The distinction I would make on the discussion above is that the one who wants to save the marriage has to do 100% of the work -- no question.

"The Work", however, is separate from owning 100% of the blame for what happened, and I thought that was the point Denver was making. Being "left behind" tends to pummel your self esteem and make you feel "less than", which adds to the natural tendency to assume that the treatment you've received is *your fault*.

I thought Denver's point was to help newcomers to see that it is not all their fault, despite how they might be feeling.

The unfortunate side, to Adinva's point, is that even though it's not all your fault, you still have to do "all the work", assuming you want to save the marriage when your spouse does not.

Accuray
Posted By: keep_going Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 06:21 PM
Accuray - As always, your insight and clarity of thought and eloquence are amazing. Thank you!
Posted By: bustingout Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 06:41 PM
Completely agree with KG --Thank you Accuray.
Posted By: JuneReN Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 07:04 PM
Dead on Accuray....
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/14/13 11:36 PM
what they said^^^

cool
Posted By: Sad_but_happy Re: Thoughts in Hindsight - 03/17/13 04:25 AM
Great thread!

And I have to say, I'm always amazed at the people that stay and help and continue to help. Denver, 25, Sandi, and many others.

I remember how lost I was and how this site and the support of others helped me through everything. And to see that people stay and assist and help despite their busy lives is inspiring.

I have looked in from time to time. I've read and felt for all the people suffering through what I know to be one of the most devastating and debilitating things one can endure.

All I can say is keep on going until YOU attain happiness. Whatever that means. Because it's out there once YOU take control of your own life. Your own destiny. Your own happiness.

Good luck!
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