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I'm 14 months into the period that follows the BD (Dec. 5th, 2011), but only happened upon the DR book a month ago and subsequently this website from that book. I see so many similarities in so many stories on here that it's both comforting and a little odd at times, but reading through these boards has turned out to be a big help in terms of knowledge, confidence, and hope. Thank you all for your contributions.

I found the book to be quite empowering and was worried that perhaps I was fooling myself into thinking I had some sort of control over a situation in which I have very little, but something has clicked in the last few weeks and I don't think it's any coincidence that I read the book and found this message board around that same time. I'm certainly not going to complain about it because I haven't felt this good/not awful in over a year and I'll take what I can get at this point.

I'll probably provide some more detail of my situation later on when I have more time and I am off moderation...it took five days for my initial post to be approved. But again, many thanks to all. I have been picking a thread or two a day to read in this forum as well as some of the others such as the advice in the archives. I lurked a bit before I registered.

Regards,

tmd

*sigh*

I'm doing really well most of the time, but she calls and talks to me about paying the L and it throws me all out of sorts. I doubt I seemed "off" at all on the phone (though I think she sensed something because she called me after that and IM'd me as well), but I'm trying to figure out how to NOT let that affect me or be able to "reboot" back to mentally doing well faster instead of lingering in the downward spiral.

Still, much better than before. Already "rebooted" after a couple of meetings at work.

Hello and welcome! It's kind of hard to offer much advice since you haven't really posted any details on your sitch, but your M has clearly been in trouble for quite some time. Since you just read DR a month ago, do you feel that what you were doing before that time was damaging behavior? Many of us did all the begging/ pleading/ negotiating stuff that is really harmful before finally finding DR. Hopefully you've made adjustments since reading DR. Please post some more detail about your sitch, what faults you had in the M and what you're doing about those faults (180's). Regarding paying for a lawyer, again you haven't posted much info but typically our advise is not to do anything to assist the WAS in pursuing for D, that should be completely on them. Good luck!

The family unit still operates using joint bank accounts. After the most recent, and most followed through with D talk (1.19.13), she opened a single account for her, but her pay is still hitting the joint family accounts.

She told me she had received money from family to cover the L fees, but the call today was to inform me that the new L's initial payment was more than she had in her account and she was wondering how to pay for it (i.e. is it okay to give them our joint account information [she was checking in with me and essentially asking, not telling me what she was going to do]). This caught me off guard because, as you pointed out, I do not agree with the D I do not want to facilitate it, but I also don't want to turn into an obstacle or an enemy to what she wants.

So technically she does earn money that could be used to pay for the D, but that money is currently combined with mine to pay the costs of running the family, which is currently stretched thin because we are paying for two living situations.

Goodness, it's hard to even address basic topics because I feel like so much more context is necessary to adequately describe each situation, but that was the short answer and I hope I communicated that message clearly. I'm sure the dynamics of everyone's situations are extremely complex, and mine are certainly no different.

Thanks for posting. When I have more time I'll start to dive into the details, though I'll likely post in segments so as not to wear myself, or readers, out. It appears I'm off moderation, so YAY!

Regards,

tmd

Real time update on today's action post phone call(context: wife and kids live in a nice, large, suburban rental house, I live in an apartment nearby):

I'm currently working full time and in graduate school, thus tonight I wasn't able to head back home until after 9PM. One of my daughters is sick and she wanted some apple juice, so I stopped by the grocer on the way home, brought it by the house, made it (from concentrate), and left it in the refrigerator for her tomorrow. The kids were, of course, asleep, so I took the opportunity to go into their rooms and kiss each one of them on the cheek or forehead as they slumbered, something I don't normally get to do on a school night for me.

I came back downstairs and W was awake. She had made a delicious chili and offered that I take some with me for food later in the week and I gladly filled two Tupperware containers full of that goodness which is perfect for late February. She was in bed, but had left the light on so I took that as a cue to check on her and say "good night" before I left. I asked her if she wanted the fan left on and she said "yes," and after I turned out the light I tucked her in. She started to gently cry.

(Disclaimer: I have read enough to know that this very likely doesn't mean anything with regards to feelings for me, but is more likely a function of going through a very difficult time, dealing with guilt, loneliness, an inability to rekindle feelings for me, realization of the very real effects of D, the general pain of the situation, as well as countless other stimuli.)

I just lay down next to her and massaged her a little bit. (More context: She works a very physically demanding job and the stress from this along with mothering four children in a house with a father not present in his ideal role is very challenging...I can't even imagine. Tangentially, one of my 180's has been to give her less of this type of attention, but I thought an exception was appropriate in this case.) I didn't say a word, we just lay there in silence for maybe 45 minutes and then I covered her back up and told her to get some sleep. I then grabbed my chili and headed back to my apartment where I sit typing this out now.

Good night, all.

-tmd

She did respond to last night's "event" how I expected she would, which is in line with how she has reacted throughout this process. She apologized for last night...said that sometimes she is "okay" and other times she is "not okay", but that she was sorry for breaking down in front of me. I told her I understand this is very hard and she has nothing to apologize for. She called me later to discuss the paperwork to be turned in to the L (this part is the "par for the course" behavior...having a quasi-backlash after an event that she thinks I might interpret as "hope" [mind-reading on her part, but typical based on so many stories] to reenforce to me or her or both of us that the D is her final decision).

I filed our taxes yesterday and am thinking of giving her half the refund for her personal account. I haven't mentioned anything to her about it, but given my post from last night (not yet approved by mods) I thought perhaps someone here might provide some insight that I can consider.

Regards,

tmd

Also, I am not complaining about the moderation (this is a free site and I have derived more than my fair share of value from it), I'm just explaining why my posts may appear to be a bit fragmented.

-tmd

Made a couple of mistakes yesterday, but doing better with not getting caught up in it or over thinking it. Mistake #1 was sending a response text to her I shouldn't have (but if I hadn't it would have eaten me alive for a while). Mistake #2 was lingering at the house last night after the kids went to bed.

Things "feel" weird, but I'm trying not to mind-read and just stick to my plan. However, and this is no surprise, the plan is all fine and dandy until I'm around and her eyes are sparkling like they were last night.

-tmd

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Hello and welcome!

Thanks for your reply!

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

It's kind of hard to offer much advice since you haven't really posted any details on your sitch, but your M has clearly been in trouble for quite some time.

Since you just read DR a month ago, do you feel that what you were doing before that time was damaging behavior?

I was doing some things well and other things I was completely messing up, though that seems to be par for the pre-DB course. I believe the net effect was negative.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Many of us did all the begging/ pleading/ negotiating stuff that is really harmful before finally finding DR. Hopefully you've made adjustments since reading DR.

I did a lot of that internally, but I royally messed up some things externally as well:

Broke down emotionally in front of her.
Lost my cool.
Chased (wrote letters, notes, made cd's, had flowers at the house regularly, told her I would wait for her/made promises)
Waited/didn't GAL & detach

Of course all of that created pressure, exactly the opposite of the space she needed, though I did give what felt like an incredible amount of space. I was mostly patient, understanding, and empathetic, realizing that my mistakes led to this outcome, ultimately falling into the depression trap again by being extremely hard on myself, which is in my nature (one of the things I'm trying to improve on). I felt like I was executing my plan well 95% of the time, but I would build up emotionally and eventually snap in the form of that list above.

It probably didn't help that I told and talked to almost no one throughout this time. I had one person who really helped me get through points where I was drowning and kept me grounded in my faith. A couple of others offered help, but their advice was to drop her like a hot potato and that strategy didn't coalesce with my feelings or my beliefs. I finally told my parents after 10 months last October, and one of my sisters last month. We don't have family close to us...most of them are out of state. Telling three family members, people who do care about me, has been somewhat relieving, which came as a welcome surprise.

We have been in limbo-land for most of the 14 months, and that is extremely draining mentally and emotionally, especially without any sort of plan. Plans suit me well so I am doing much better DB'ing, knowing that my actions have a purpose and are helping me work towards the goals that I have.

I did do some things well, but obviously not enough or I wouldn't be here

I knew very early on that my problem, at least my main problem, was ME and not the OM. It wouldn't do any good to get her away from him if *I* wasn't somebody she was interested in being with anymore. If it wasn't him it would just be someone else, but it definitely wouldn't be me. Just because I KNEW this doesn't mean I did a good job of execution, though more on that later.
I refuse to quit. I quit on myself a while back and convinced her that me, the real me, was never coming back. I did such a good job of convincing her that she eventually quit on me and us. I can't quit now.
I made changes that put the family first, and I have been living them out. The sadness was so bad that at times I had to force it, but (for me) going through the motions sometimes kick-starts the "feeling" and so I've continued to go through the motions during those times I don't "feel" like, those times which are occurring less and less.
Re-prioritized my mind. This is in the same mold as the previous point, but slightly different. My wife has always been on a pedestal high above everything else, including God. I recognized this is not good, and the reprogramming isn't complete because my wife still takes up a good chunk of emotional hard drive space, but I've made progress and continue to do so. I look forward to hugs from kids so much at the end of the day, and it makes me feel great to feel that way (more on that later). Right now a hug and squeeze from my 3 year-old cures about any ailment that could curse the human race.
Was a good husband no matter how much I was hurting. I still stuck up for her and protected her from the outside while she was hurting too. Perhaps this may end up being a strategic error, but I stood by my wife no matter what, and I think that's honorable.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Please post some more detail about your sitch, what faults you had in the M and what you're doing about those faults (180's). Regarding paying for a lawyer, again you haven't posted much info but typically our advise is not to do anything to assist the WAS in pursuing for D, that should be completely on them. Good luck!

Some 180's I have come up with:

� Not doing little things for her (getting sauerkraut when she mentions she is out, filling up her van with gas)
� Not offering to massage her
� Not responding emotionally to troubling news
� Listen to her instead of always trying to fix things
� Be decisive!
� Compliment her more.
� Show more appreciation.

The 180's are me trying to figure out how to detach, but still be complimentary and appreciative, while not being a pushover or her "cake", while, of course, meeting my other goals of bettering myself as a person, a father, and a mate.

Thanks again for your reply and your questions. I feel like I have hardly even scratched the surface.

*sigh*

So she has been lying to me. Things started to turn for the better last late August/September and I began to have some hope of turning the corner. She said, "I love you" for the first time in months and was giving me attention she hadn't given me since the BD. She wanted me to come see her at work before I picked the kids up. She was introducing me to her clients at work as "her husband" and telling me it was good to see the old me again.

Then in late September things starting turning south again. Looking through the kids home phone records this morning I got the itch to search for the OM's # since in the past the D talks have ramped up when she and him are contacting each other, and lo and behold, calls started in late September. She assured me very recently there was no one else in the picture, but the calls to the home phone are at least a few a month, and that implies calls to her cell phone and email contact as well.

I just found this out this morning, and the EA has been difficult enough to deal with in the past, but that was "over" and it's the lying that is tearing me up inside.

I don't know this person. I know she is hurting and confused and that I need to approach this situation delicately and not let my emotions get the best of me. I do not think I should confront her. I am having trouble not confronting him because he has, now thrice, ignored specific terms he was to meet. And I don't know if I should contact his wife, who is well aware of the past, but perhaps not since this started back up in September. I feel she has the right to know, but it would certainly stir the pot a great deal.

She has thanked me multiple times recently for being her friend, which I understand is is the basis for any hope of a future R, but I don't think I can be friends with someone I don't trust. And a PA may be a deal breaker for me.

Man I wish I could post and have them show up...by the time they are approved my thread is already on the 3rd or 4th page.

She can tell something is up today. I just don't know what to do. Act "as if" this doesn't bother me? I very much disapprove of this behavior.

I'm just not sure how to act tonight when I go to the house and she is there. If I act as normal as I can, then I at least don't blow my cover. If I act standoff-ish, it might push her away. But as I've read, it isn't necessarily so much having her be "nice" to me in the near term, but having respect for me as a man in the long term. I really feel a major breach of trust and this is just unacceptable.

Act as if? Or draw my line?

All the progress I have made on myself doesn't mean I have to accept all types of behavior, yet the countless stories on here about not acknowledging this type of behavior and the subsequent advice to act as though it has no impact on me. It isn't so much the OM, which was a terrible surprise, but the deceit about it.

*sigh*

-tmd

I will be leaving for the house shortly. I will act as "as if" as I can and stick to the plan. I hope I am not justifying weak behavior...

-tmd

So I played "as if" as best I could last night, spending most of my time with my daughters. She could tell something was bothering me, but didn't ask me any specifics. I was just going to say "I had a rough day" and leave it at that if she did mention something. She did offer to rub my neck and back.

I'm still so conflicted about what to do. Draw my line and say that "friends" don't treat each other this way, or to just act like nothing has happened and play it cool (I will always have the information for future reference, of course). The man in me has a real problem not drawing the line because the terms I set forth last year have been breached (again) by both W and OM - a clear sign of disrespect. The hopeless romantic in me wants to make sure I don't burn the bridge, but I feel like I don't know this person who looks and, for the most part, acts like my W...

So I have phone records of them speaking over the last five months (I may have already posted that, but I'm not sure because it isn't approved yet). Those are just records to the home phone, so I have no idea how much communication they have been having to her cell phone or anything about email exchanges, and I'm not going to go looking for that information. I don't know what they are talking about and, of course, my mind gravitates towards the worst thoughts, but it could be nothing - it's unlikely, but the possibility exists and I recognize that.

I just feel stuck as to what angle to take with my wife. She is very nice to me and it makes me want to trust her, and I HAVE trusted her, I just wonder if I'm a fool for doing so. At least I have done the right and honorable things (in my mind) over the course of this long process and I can rest my head at night knowing that. I have tried REALLY hard. I have prayed REALLY hard. I have trusted. I have had faith. And all along I have known that none of that guarantees me any results.

It's so ironic how our roles have completely switched throughout this experience. Yesterday was very difficult for me and I thought to myself, "I don't know this person anymore. I just don't see her the same way as I used to." And that really hurts. And I immediately thought of the times when I was sick and she was reaching out to me...she said the same things. "tmd: please change because I'm starting to not see you the same way anymore."

And I didn't listen. *ugh*

And it's thoughts like that that keep me grounded and give me the perspective to keep fighting and working. Knowing that I put her through what she is now putting me through: wondering what I'm doing, wondering who this person is, waiting for my spouse to "come back," hoping and getting my hopes crushed, feeling betrayed, feeling alone. And it's been a really, REALLY tough 14 months for me, and I know you all know how this feels, but I've felt deserving of feeling this way because of what *I* put *her* through. I hurt her terribly and so I can take it. I don't believe in some karmic balance or that one is necessary, but if this is how she felt then I want to feel it too.

But right now I'm still conflicted as to what to do. My sister thinks I'm a little crazy for ignoring what I found yesterday. She understands that I have to be somebody my W would be a fool to leave, but there has to be a point where enough is enough. And I agree.

I'm certainly not putting the burden of my decision on anyone reading this, but any input is welcome.

(If anyone not on moderation could bump this thread so it gets more traffic I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.)

-tmd

She just texted me: "I feel like I am perpetually fat." Which is ridiculous because she is in the fitness industry and takes very good care of herself.

I responded with: "I am sorry you feel that way, but [W], you are a beautiful, intelligent, strong...a VERY desirable woman, and I can't be around much anymore to remind you of that as often as you deserve to hear it, so you need to stop beating yourself up with thoughts like that."

I almost wrote "silly thoughts" or "ridiculous thoughts", but didn't want to call her feelings either of those words (learned from this forum about validating feelings, though I don't know if the above is a very good job of that).

I had a really good couple of days with my girls.

Wow, I don't know how, but I forget how bad the the bad days are.

Ugh^blah

As bad as the day was it ended pretty well. What a crazy ride.

Originally Posted By: tehmackdaddy

I'm still so conflicted about what to do. Draw my line and say that "friends" don't treat each other this way, or to just act like nothing has happened and play it cool (I will always have the information for future reference, of course).

I assume you're talking about her conversations with OM? Are the two of you still living together? If you aren't then you really have no say in who she sees or is talking to. But if you are, then if she's living at home while carrying on with OM then she's cake-eating and that is not fair to you. It's your decision on how to proceed, your choices are to say nothing and take a "wait and see" attitude to see if your changes will eventually make her decide to cut it off with OM, or you can confront her now. If you decide to confront her it's important to do it in a calm, loving fashion. You don't want to rant, rave and pitch a fit as that will just make you look jealous and angry (and it'll make it easy for her to decide to leave). But if you can calmly sit down with her and firmly tell her that she has a decision to make, then it will have more impact on her. Just understand, if you give her an ultimatum (IE, ditch OM or leave the house) then make sure you're willing to live with her leaving because she very well might choose that.

Quote:

The man in me has a real problem not drawing the line because the terms I set forth last year have been breached (again) by both W and OM - a clear sign of disrespect.

If this is a boundary you previously set and she has breached it, then I would be inclined to have a discussion about it with her.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

I assume you're talking about her conversations with OM? Are the two of you still living together?

Separated for 11 months. But after the 2nd BD last May I explicitly stated that it wasn't "okay" to be pursuing another man while she is M to me. That isn't fair or right or moral to any of the parties involved.

Of course, this entire time she has not made any promises as to her behavior or actions - intentionally, I think - for a couple of potential reasons:

1) She hasn't really "known" what she is going to do.
2) Not telling me what behavior I can count on from her alleviates her responsibility to her behavior which always creates the fallback rebuttal of "I never said I would or wouldn't."

This HAS created a "cake-eating" environment for her as she figures things out. She seems to bounce around from one extreme to another (based on her actions) depending on the day, which also seems like typical WAW behavior, so I understand the angle of NOT bringing this up, just acting "as if", and continuing to be someone only a fool would leave.

Just because I "understand" that, though, doesn't mean it's the best response, which is what I am struggling with. Also, not having any sort of "I will do this and not do that until this" type of statements by her...nothing that she can be held accountable for, has increased the stress and anxiety for me throughout the process...something I realize makes things more difficult, but have been willing to go through for her and us and the family.

More of a struggle is how to handle OM. Me contacting him or his W would, of course, stir the pot and potentially push W & OM closer together. BUT, I DO NOT know what their relationship status is. Bringing this up COULD undo the work I've done to be a man only a fool would leave and that I'm moving on regardless. It could also thwart reconciliation attempts between OM and his W, one of my only assets in OM avoiding my W. BUT, I don't know their situation either.

There are several potential scenarios that currently could be in play here:

1) My W and OM could be planning for their escape routes together.
2) W and/or OM may have told the other that things are over.

Among the events I can't reconcile are the communication between the two and comments from my wife to me, the latter of which I am inclined to believe, perhaps foolishly.

Situations and reasons aside, I need to do what is "right" and let the chips fall where they may. I just don't know which action, or lack of action, by me is the most right or the least wrong.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

If you decide to confront her it's important to do it in a calm, loving fashion. You don't want to rant, rave and pitch a fit as that will just make you look jealous and angry (and it'll make it easy for her to decide to leave). But if you can calmly sit down with her and firmly tell her that she has a decision to make, then it will have more impact on her.

Yes, of course. This has been a main focus of mine since reading DR and finding this forum. I do not respond emotionally to her...she does not affect my emotional state. She's in the castle and I'm at a picnic...

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Just understand, if you give her an ultimatum (IE, ditch OM or leave the house) then make sure you're willing to live with her leaving because she very well might choose that.

It wouldn't be necessarily be an ultimatum from me from a M perspective as that is already headed down the D path now that she is paying lawyers and we're filling out paperwork. It's more of a "I'm disappointed in finding this out and I feel betrayed all over again. As difficult as this is, I decided I DO want to be friends with you, but friends don't sneak around and deceive like this. When you want to be friends and respect each other in a mutually proper way, let me know."

Maybe that IS an ultimatum, but if I were to say something along the lines of the above, then I would definitely follow through with it. There's always the point that drawing a line in the sand and saying, essentially, "this was too much" actually shows me sticking up for myself and demands respect, which could be healthy for any potential R in the longer term.

Or it could push her farther away...but maybe just in the short term .

It's entirely possible W and I have operating under different assumption sets regarding the boundaries of our current R, but sneaking around is a clear indicator that someone feels what they are doing is wrong.

I have also learned through this most recent "find" that as badly as I want to reconcile, I have some major trust issues that would have to be worked through for our R to be mended. I don't think that is unreasonable, but it is there.

I have also realized it for some time, but if W were to ask me to move back in (not something I think there is even a remote chance of at this point), I would be extremely hesitant to do so...a lot because of me and my trust issues and also a lot because I think it's best to take things slow and not confuse the children. They're hurting enough and don't need to have their hopes and lives jerked around any more than is already taking place.

If given the opportunity, I want to take things slow. The old marriage, though not final, is dead. Date again. Grow together again. Be sure of things. THEN move home.

In reading your response to my comments I honestly think you're in a very good place

You have a good grasp of DB'ing principals and it sounds like you are applying them correctly.

Originally Posted By: tehmackdaddy

More of a struggle is how to handle OM. Me contacting him or his W would, of course, stir the pot and potentially push W & OM closer together. BUT, I DO NOT know what their relationship status is. Bringing this up COULD undo the work I've done to be a man only a fool would leave and that I'm moving on regardless

I've read several threads here where the H (not sure why, but it always seems to be men that do this rather than women) decided to contact/ confront the OM and it has always ended up blowing up in their face. Their W gets exceedingly angry that they intervened, and they view it was controlling, manipulative behavior which is often why they are escaping the M in the first place. It is fine to confront your W about it, but it's best not to contact OM. Just try to keep in mind that OM is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

Quote:

Absolutely, I'd venture that ALL of us have that bridge to cross if/ when we reconcile. The Piecing forum is filled with threads where the WAS returns and the LBS is suddenly struggling with trust issues. That's maybe the biggest challenge for the LBS in piecing. It's not insurmountable, but it isn't easy to deal with either.

Quote:

If given the opportunity, I want to take things slow. The old marriage, though not final, is dead. Date again. Grow together again. Be sure of things. THEN move home.

Exactly right. The old timers in the Piecing forum offer much the same advice!

I told OM that he is not to be in any contact with my W while we are still married. That was last January, after BD#2. I spoke with him again a few months later after BD#3 (it was discovered by OM's W that they were communicating again). Both times I was more than cordial, though I am certain he was frightened of me.

He either:

1) isn't threatened by me (not likely)
2) has some sort of assurances from my W (very possible)
3) thinks he can get away with it (after being caught twice, this makes no sense, but is possible)
4) isn't thinking clearly

It could be any combination of those and perhaps even something I can't think of.

A friend reminded me that my faith doesn't allow for me to respond to him the way in which I would prefer. My human failings sometimes don't care about my faith.

W seems to be responding positively to the continuance of "acting as if" and me sitting on my picnic blanket turned away from the castle she has barricaded herself in. This probably means nothing and is an amicable mirroring of treatment.

We had a good talk Sunday night. In an hour I did most of the listening and only regret saying two things, neither of which were terribly bad. They were just "caught up in the moment" slips in judgement (from what I learned here) that I won't over-analyze as having more impact than they likely did.

AnotherStander, I very much appreciate your responses and time for my thread.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Just try to keep in mind that OM is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

I DO recognize that, and I recognized that very early on. However, as so many understand, it is not a benign symptom.

Right now I am concentrating/trying to concentrate on being a man only a fool would leave. Right now I'm not ready to ring any bells that can't be un-rung.

We talked again tonight. What she is saying isn't exactly what I want to be hearing, but just her opening up to me makes me feel better for whatever reason.

She's been crying a lot lately.
She reiterated that she doesn't "feel" it. That she wanted this version of me for so long until she just didn't anymore, and she's stuck there.
She is afraid she's going to wake up one day and realize she has [effed] everything up and it's too late to fix it.
She knows she is hurting me and that is hurting her.
She isn't "okay" without me there in the house, but she isn't "okay" with me sleeping next to her either. The nights she wants me to sleep over she convinces herself not to ask because she realizes she is just delaying the growth she needs to go through to be okay on her own.
She HAS to be able to be okay on her own. She can't allow herself to feel as helpless as she did before.
She is worried about the kids...about having to sell the van and moving out of the house and into another new district without my income, so she asked if I would help by keeping my name on the lease and liens.

I do feel like a lot of that would quickly wash away if she just met a nice guy. I've heard/read it isn't easy for a woman with so many kids to find a good husband, but that wouldn't be the case for her.

She has been nothing short of great with regards to allowing the girls and I to have as much time as possible, mostly at the house, but I feel more and more like the temporary, stop-loss Dad just keeping things in order until the permanent solution arrives. (This is one of the more difficult things to handle for me, emotionally.) I feel like I'm her friend, for now, while she needs one and that I'll be tossed aside - not rudely, but understandably - when circumstances permit. With how badly I hurt her, I continue to be okay with this being the possible outcome. I'm just trying to be there for her in whatever manner I can...trying to rebuild trust in whatever ways I can. I don't know what else to do.

I do know my brain turns to mush when I am around her so it's much easier to develop a plan that it is to implement it.

Does anyone have any input on my thoughts of splitting the tax refund 50/50? Thoughts:

I have the money ear-marked for a few family-centric items (savings, roof for jointly owned property).
It's a couple of thousand dollars, so the amount is certainly significant. I'm by far the primary wage earner, but that only takes into account income and doesn't reflect familial contributions, which is where I arrive at just splitting 50/50.
I understand not paying for the divorce, but since we are headed down that path it makes sense to at least offer her the check. She can always hand it back.
A little money in her account might de-stress her some. If money is in the way of any of her decisions right now, then perhaps this will allow her some clarity.
I don't want to be or appear as her money controlling overlord.

I hate talking myself into handing over several thousand dollars when there are family items I would like to fund with that money, but I think offering is the right thing to do and may reveal where her mind is at right now.

(That sounded kind of manipulative to type that last part, and that isn't why I'm doing this. I guess it's a potential secondary effect of taking this action. I don't at all think she'll treat me any differently with a little money in the bank, but it may be informative if she did.)

I went ahead and gave her the check for half. It was the right thing to do.

Also from last night, just remembering the way she worded things:

She said that sometimes she just wants to put a tv back in the bedroom, put on old movies, and laugh with me. But that wouldn't be happiness now, it would be happiness from memories.
She said she just let go of everything. She wanted me to come back and she wanted who I am now (after 1st BD) until she just didn't anymore...she just let all that go.

She also told me on Sunday that she is still hurting and has some resentment towards me. I take that as better than indifference and also what I have suspected all along even though she claimed to be past all that. Maybe she thought she was past all that or maybe she just didn't want to admit it...I don't know and I'm not going to try and figure it out.

Good night all.

-tmd

My brain is funny. I am okay with the logical approach to all of this...up UNTIL I'm actually around W. Then chemicals in my brain start firing all weird and I turn into a pathetic pile of goop. I've tested this recently and realize I have about a 90 second window from when I arrive at the house to when I notice (let's call it) "the stupidness" start to have an influence. And "the stupidness" can wear off as quickly as when I leave the house and am walking out to my vehicle. I'll think to myself "WHAT WAS I JUST DOING?!?"

I'm having trouble detaching. From very early on in my ordeal I had this feeling that we were going to have to REALLY separate before this gets resolved. Not me just living somewhere else, not her feeling like I'm waiting for her to come back around, but both of us feeling like "it's over" and moving on before there's a chance of anything. I know that Michele's book warns of self-fulfilling thought prophecies, and this may or may not be one of those. Maybe it's just my way of keeping some shred of hope alive in my mind, even after "it's over." I know in my head that I will be okay regardless of what happens. I know that more and more in my heart too - depending on the day you ask me, though.

I think both W and I have an issue with pushing to the point of putting the M completely behind us. The strategist in me realizes that, historically, she is more apt to push towards the D process when OM is in the picture. So perhaps the best 180 would be to actually force a "real" separation while I figure he isn't around. That's the first time I've thought of that and so I'll have to give it some more brain processing before I pull the trigger on that gun.

(Here comes a bit of a ramble)

I'm pretty sure I know what my roadblock is: I just don't want to be a man that doesn't love her this much. And as soon as I type that I think that it isn't good to love somebody else so much that you fall apart without them. With others I've given the oft used analogy of this feeling like W put her hands into my chest and ripped my heart clean out. And everyone is telling me I need to figure out how to "move on" and "be okay". Well...ummm...I kind of need that heart to pump blood to survive...don't tell me I can do without it.

And I realize in my head that this isn't okay and that it's best/healthiest to grow into someone that isn't so dependent. (And goodness, I've made such strides in this department.) I guess maybe I'm worried that if I figure out how to move on and at some point she does want to reconcile, that I'll be at a point where I say "no." And I both feel like 1) I owe it to her to not do that and, to be honest with myself, 2) I just don't want to take that step. I don't WANT to see her differently. I guess the only person I'm fooling is myself. I'm just making this more difficult on myself.

Anyway, I had my UN changed. Thought the old one was juvenile (though I'm not sure how "juvenile" a >20 year old album reference can be) and that I should change it to a reminder of what I want to be.

Not much of an update. I've been REALLY busy, but my thoughts are still consumed by her and our situation. I was reading adinva's thread and found this from Accuray:

Originally Posted By: Accuray

My biggest fear going through this process has been that if our marriage ends in D, that I will not find another person who I will feel as attracted to as I do to my W.

I have so many similarities to so many people's situations on here it is eery sometimes, but this is definitely one of my "fears", if that's what I want to label it. I have been completely in love with my wife from Day 1, and I have never thought or day-dreamed about what life would have been like with someone else, or if we had never gotten together, or if we had broken up at some point. Other women just have never been on my radar. I'm not saying I don't recognize an attractive woman (I am a functional male being

), but for me there has always been her...and then everyone else. I never had a serious relationship before her and have never considered one since. I really don't even know if other women are attracted to me. At various points in the past I have been told I was being "hit on" and I had absolutely no idea...my brain just doesn't function in a way that receives those signals. I never wanted "out" of my marriage - though my actions did a poor job of reflecting that for a while - and I never thought that "we" - the combined unit of "us" - was breakable (a catastrophic error in judgement; I used that error as my crutch while I refused to fix my own problems).

And I've done enough reading to know there are many here in my situation. It's just difficult to detach. I know I must, I just don't quite know how yet. At times I think I am figuring it out and at other times I still feel lost.

My approach is still the same.

I am focusing on being someone only a fool would leave. W occassionally brings up D talk to discuss details, but I am at least past the point where this throws me off my game. It isn't "fun" to talk about, but I'm not going to let it ruin me or my day.
I never brought up contact with OM. I don't see the upside. Even if I decide that is the line and it has been crossed, I will simply act that out instead of telling her. She'll eventually get the message and I do not need to fuel her fire or muddy up the path home by instigating a known disagreeable confrontation.
I'm working on me. I need to be the best person and father I can be regardless of W's choices.
Act "as if" (emphasis a lot of the time on "Act")
Never give up. Have hope, but not expectations.
Give her space, but don't abandon or withdraw from her. (tough balancing act for me)
Do not allow her to control my emotions (doing well on the outside, not so well on the inside)

I feel like I know a lot of what I am supposed to be doing, it's just a matter of doing it. I do think I'm afraid to detach and find out who I am without her. I talked about my roadblock in my last post and I'm kinda stuck there. I have been pondering whether I should call a DB coach. A seemingly stiff monetary price for a few phone calls (and I'm worried I won't be able to fully contextualize my situation in such a brief time), but it's a terribly small pittance in the currency of my marriage, my wife, and my life. Of course, maybe I am still unhealthy in my ways of not being able to let go. This is all so confusing sometimes.

Anybody reading this?

I'm reading this. I know it's difficult when it seems like nobody is replying to your posts. Hang in there. I can relate in struggling with the difficulty in detaching. The line between hope and expectations is a difficult one to walk.

What are you doing to GAL? (STOP SNOOPING. I KNOW IT'S HARD, BUT IT WILL NOT HELP.)

I am! You sound like me!

(The following is just for thought as I ask for your opinions/experience.)

My IC thinks I should try an AD medication. I have always been leery of medicine...all kinds. I don't even like to take ibuprofen or acetaminophen if I have a headache. I figure that most medicine is just masking some other issue that needs to be addressed. In my headache example, maybe I am dehydrated, or have gotten too much sun, or got smacked in the head by a golf club. So medicine is okay as long as it isn't masking another problem that fails to go addressed. Know what I mean? If I got hit with a golf club, then okay, but maybe I just need to drink some more water, suck it up, and not make that mistake again.

Anyway, I've had more than enough time periods where I have gone through depression that I can easily recognize it myself and the thought of less volatile emotional states and stress is rather appealing, but am I crazy to not want to mask this pain and experience? It has been a stimulus to growth that I NEEDED to go through. It has been a reminder of perspective and priorities. Do I really need a pill and am I okay with taking it to "feel better"?

I realize I am an over-thinker, but part of this process has been to be brutally honest with myself. I have hit the lowest of lows several times throughout this ordeal and it has been terrible. But in a way, it was those lowest of lows where I found out what I was really made of. And I don't mean to channel my inner Hank Hill, but "I'll tell you what": I am proud of who that person is now. And that's more than I could say 16 months ago.

The IC says if dosed properly, the medicine will just make the severe lows less low...like how I feel on days that I now call my new "normal." "Normal" sad that I am getting divorced, don't see my daughters every night, etc. Not the "I feel like I am being crushed by an insurmountable weight and every day feels like a week" kind of sad.

I can guess as to what some of your responses might be, but that would be mind reading and a habit I don't want to fertilize in the garden of my mind.

Good day!
-PM

LeftCoastLBH and waitingformagic:

Thank you!

(I have to run at the moment and will answer that GAL question on my next login so I can give it some thought.)

-PM

I just caught up on your sitch. You have been at this a while. You seem to know what you should be doing and it looks like you are sticking to the plan.

I know exactly what you mean about never wanting anyone else. I saw my W on the playground when she was in 7th grade. I had no idea who she was but honestly, even at that young of an age, I knew she was THE ONE. I have been with her ever since.

Detaching is really hard for me. I am still really attracted to my W and being around her makes my heart melt. I am much further along with my detachment than a few months prior however.

I am not sure what,if any, advice I can give you except that if you truly want to save your marriage then keep working on it (ie yourself). You seem to have the DB knowledge to do it. This is extremely hard to deal with. Just press on and stay the course. Good luck.

Originally Posted By: PatientMan

I know exactly what you mean; my W used to get on me because I preferred to suffer through headaches, colds, or allergies instead of taking medicine.

I've been on at least four different SSRIs over 20 years in my life, plus another type of AD that hits different receptors. I can only give you my opinion and my experiences:

If I had it to do over again, I would stay away from them. Far away. One made no difference at all. One gave me a few weeks of euphoria before settling down into a gray, zombie-like haze. One seemed to help for a bit, but on reflection, I wonder if it did anything at all. And the last one slowly, gradually, and almost imperceptibly let me slip into a haze of apathy and depression I blame (in part) for the death of my marriage. I didn't realize what a bad place I was in until my wife was out the door.

SSRIs are the most commonly prescribed AD and they can have nasty side effects that nobody likes to talk about. Google SSRI sexual dysfunction. Google SSRI discontinuation syndrome. Yes, they help some people. For me, they just allowed me to ignore my problems and gave me nasty side effects like apathy, weight gain, and decreased libido.

I am currently on Welbutrin and I find it is currently working for me. I can still feel the highs and lows (for now) and I do not seem to have ANY side effects. I hope to wean myself off it once this D thing is over.

In my opinion, regular vigorous exercise and CBT have been much more helpful to me than SSRIs ever have. Some people may need ADs to give them the kick in the pants to start exercising and getting CBT. If you do, then I recommend taking ADs but getting off them AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Again, this is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. I am not a doctor.

PM, some AD advice..... when my first marriage broke up, my head was spinning so fast I couldn't even catch a thought. I took something called buspar, I had no clue what it was, but only l only required it for about 2 weeks, I felt AMAZING. when this r separated I was against everything as well. I too don't take anything for anything. BUT, finally caved in when doctor said it would help. She said buspar was dirty, but would give it again or to try Cipralex. It took about 3 weeks to a month to work, life seems to not be AS bad. It does take the edge off. I do not plan on staying on these for too long, but want to be certain that I am OK.

just my .02

I didn't realize what a bad place my marriage was in until my H was out the door.

I've never taken ADs in my life. That's not to say I wouldn't, just haven't.

hit submit too fast.

Patient Man, I think it's always best to work with your provider who actually sees you and knows you. If you try one and it doesn't help, there may be another that will. Only you know how low you lows are and sometimes we do need a jumpstart to be able to see our way out of the hole that is depression.

ADs in conjunction with talk therapy can be very effective. I think the fact that this is coming from your IC is important.

Also other things that help which you may already be doing, meditation, exercise, getting sunshine every day.

Good luck.

PM,

If your IC recommended it, discuss it with your PCM/Family Doc. Back in 2002, I hit a low period going thru some very rough personal and professional 'stuff'. My PCM put me on Celexa for about 8 weeks; and I had to go see him weekly to discuss how I was feeling. It really worked well for what I needed at that time.

My current PCM put me on Welbutrin from 2006 - early 2009 for marital issues; this basically broke my give-a-darn and helped lead to where I am now. I don't blame the drug, but, my actions while I was on it. I did have control, but, I chose not to care about things which contributed to problems that already existed in the M. During this time, I need to add, I was NOT seeing an IC...

So long as you are working with an IC, and your PCM agrees they might help, they might help you thru a rough patch.

Thank you all so much for the feedback. If anything, it just reinforced my desire to be cautious with medicine that is manipulating chemicals in my brain. I don't know why this gives me the heebie jeebies so much, but it just does and I'll be sure to bounce the suggested medicine (Cymbalta) off of my GP as well just to get a second opinion.

(Here comes a segue between the two topics of AD meds and the GAL inquiry.)

Overall I am, and keep in, pretty good shape (relative to the majority of Americans). I lift weights 3-4 times per week and do "cardio" 1-4 times per week, all depending on the macro-level goals of whatever phase I am in (gaining muscle, losing fat, or maintenance). I'm meticulous with my exercise and diet and have always had this in my nature, though my physical health slipped from MY normal after we had our second daughter. I was working full time, a full time student, and had a family. Something had to give and it wasn't going to be work, school, or family, so what was left was exercise, though I still stayed in relatively good shape.

So for a few years I went in and out of phases where I would exercise regularly and practically quit altogether. (I'm also pre-wired to need to do something 100% or I feel like I'm wasting my time...something I recognize as a trait to be worked on.) The autumn before BD I recommitted myself to getting back in shape, which for me meant going from decent shape to pretty darn good shape. Immediately after BD I knew that working out was going to be a continuing mainstay for me. I REALLY enjoy it, I want to be healthy, I welcome the challenges, it makes me feel strong, and I also learned through my various episodes of depression over the years that forcing myself to do certain things, even if I didn't want to, actually helped me shorten the depression period and kick-start me back to a better mental state. Consistently going through the motions by hitting the gym and going to church, as examples, worked for me.

(Side note: For any readers who struggle with depression, I encourage you to try finding your "healthy mental habits" and force yourself to go through the motions. I never left the gym after a workout or church after a service and said to myself, "I wish I hadn't gone." I know what works for me may not work for you, but it's worth a shot!

)

So my very long way of getting to the point where I answer the "what are you doing to GAL?" question is now over. What am I doing to GAL? That's tough. Early after the S (and before I read DR) I realized moping around by myself was a bad plan. I encountered a couple of problems in response to that:

I am not a social person and do not keep a large account at PatientMan's Bank of Friends. I prefer to keep a small number of friends close.
My very best friend has always been my wife, so that's out the window.
All my other friends were married with kids, so I didn't really have anyone to do stuff with as they were where I wanted to be: at home with their families.
I don't drink and don't care at all for the bar scene.

Now those all seem like excuses avoiding the answer of: find/meet new friends. Which brings me to my next set of bullet points:

I work between 45-60 hours per week. And not the 45-60 hours per week that people I know quote by counting when they leave their house and when they arrive back at their house. I mean a legitimate 45-60 hour week, exclusive of lunch as well. I'm up by 5 or 5:30 every morning and at work by 7 every day.
In addition to that I am in grad school, which means after work two nights a week I'm in class until 9:30, not getting back to my place until around 10.
When I'm not doing any of that I want to spend as much time with my girls as I can.
One night every weekend I have a date with one of my daughters. It rotates so I get a date every week and each one of them gets a date every four weeks. The one on one time is important and special to all of us, and it's important to me to show them how they ought to be treated when they go on dates for real when they are older...like 30.
On the other weekend night I have the girls sleep over at my place. It's small, but they need to feel welcome there and W needs to have some decompression time as well (my words, not hers). She is a quasi single mom. Her choice, yes, but I am still sensitive to that.

So I don't know what the answer to the GAL is right now. My schedule is really busy, but perhaps I'm just making excuses. Maybe I could look for something through the church (I did attend a men's Bible study, but I just didn't seem to mesh real well with the other men in that group.) I tend to be pretty picky about who I associate with, but extremely loyal to those I pick.

I have gone to see a movie every couple of months with a friend here or there, but that is extremely irregular. I recently have thought about attending more of the events my class at school puts together, but most of those are late in the evening, at the bar type get-togethers that don't appeal much to me. I've attended a couple and put forth some effort, but it just isn't easy for me to click with new people, especially people I feel I don't relate very well to.

On nights I don't have class I am at the house at least until I tuck the girls in. Usually W will ask me to stick around and watch TV with her. I don't mind this as we get along fine, but since reading DR I've done more leaving and not hanging out, I just don't do it every time. We're both lonely and I'm not saying it's the best or right thing to do, but I think we both get something out of it. As I've spoken to before, maybe I'm just in her life in this capacity now until she finds the suitable replacement. I just really have a hard time not being there for her if she needs somebody. I did that once already and lost her. I do realize I could be approaching this entirely wrong and letting my feelings rationalize behavior that doesn't coalesce with my goals, so I am certainly open to criticism.

There is something to detaching in a sense of giving her less attention and more to the kids. Before DR I noticed a few times that if I was struggling with being around her I would spend almost all of my time with my ladies (4 D's), and this would prompt a response from her akin to "pulling her in" as described elsewhere on this forum that I've read. I think we're past that point now, though...at least as far as she is quicker to recognize when she is giving me attention she doesn't normally give me, which prompts an internally fueled retaliatory response from her where she pulls back away from me in some fashion. Again, this is all just anecdotal observation and doesn't perfectly predict behavior; it's just the overall trend. And I don't let this stuff bother me anymore anyway.

Wow, I know that once I get to writing I can be a bit verbose, but I didn't intend to be this long-winded. Congratulations to anyone who made it this far!

Thank you all for your responses. It means a lot.

-PM

So for a few years I went in and out of phases where I would exercise regularly and practically quit altogether. (I'm also pre-wired to need to do something 100% or I feel like I'm wasting my time...something I recognize as a trait to be worked on.)

Good insight!

I'm just now catching up on your sitch...you have that much out of the home commitment and 4 young daughters. How the heck did you have time to even try to have a R?

As I read through I didn't see mention of what your W's complaints are. If she doesn't have any (which we all do) what do you think you need to change? What could you have done better?

I was had depression off and on for several years and it did lots of damage to my marriage. I went through the usual ways we hide from our seeming frailties, it's not that bad, it's not really depression, it's not me, it's them, I should be able to fix this, I was ashamed...None of them productive to getting better. A great IC, lots of reading, help here and I'm in a much better place.

About your W's sneaking around, what were you hoping she would do? I'm not saying she's right to do that, just wonder where your mind is on that?

What was her family life like?

Originally Posted By: labug

I'm just now catching up on your sitch...you have that much out of the home commitment and 4 young daughters. How the heck did you have time to even try to have a R?

Everything 100%!

Originally Posted By: labug

As I read through I didn't see mention of what your W's complaints are. If she doesn't have any (which we all do) what do you think you need to change? What could you have done better?

I believe that everything hinged on me drinking to cope with depression. Had I not drank I would not have turned to whoever that person that looked like me was. That person is dead now, but I am still living on the consequences of his actions. I do not mean this as a way of absolving my responsibility, I just recognize who I really am and HE isn't ME. (In a way he is still pulling strings from the grave.)

So obviously I don't drink, but that won't stop me from improving myself in other areas as well:

PATIENCE. Patience with the kids. Patience with myself. Patience with life in general.
Stop being such a hard [butt] all the time. I'm hardest on myself, which I realize isn't healthy, but that also means what I think as going "easy" on others (because I'm not as hard on them as I am on myself) isn't really "easy" as they see it.
Be the best example of a father I can be. Live what I teach my children.
Not be completely dependent upon her for my happiness.

Originally Posted By: labug

I was had depression off and on for several years and it did lots of damage to my marriage. I went through the usual ways we hide from our seeming frailties, it's not that bad, it's not really depression, it's not me, it's them, I should be able to fix this, I was ashamed...None of them productive to getting better. A great IC, lots of reading, help here and I'm in a much better place.

I am glad you are experiencing some relief.

Originally Posted By: labug

About your W's sneaking around, what were you hoping she would do? I'm not saying she's right to do that, just wonder where your mind is on that?

Not contact him until our marriage was final. I believe that she hasn't slept with him, but just finding out they have been in contact in whatever capacity (I have no idea) really stung. I told her it wasn't okay to be pursuing another man while we are married. To him I said no contact while she is my wife. W at least has an out by what opinion she has maintained all along (getting a D, though her actions don't coalesce with her talk given that we're 15 months in and still nothing signed and to a L). He has no valid excuse.

W has been very careful as to what she has NOT said to me. I mentioned it previously in my thread, that she has literally given me NOTHING solid I can use to stand on with regards to her. I understand why, but it doesn't make things any easier.

Originally Posted By: labug

What was her family life like?

Her mother moved across country when she was 5 and turned into an aunt-type figure, though she likes to pull the Mom card when it suits her.

Her dad drank too much, but is a good man and has a good heart. He and I have always gotten along, and he has toned down his drinking considerably since all the kids grew up and left.

She felt stuck with her alcoholic father, and she just couldn't take that I was doing the same thing. That she had to take care of me that way too...put up with that all over again. I, and we, were supposed to be better than that. She moved away from home and in with me after HS to get away from that, and it just became too much to bear. She didn't want the kids to look at me the way she looked at her father. She begged me to stop, told me her feelings were changing, but nothing could get through to me.

...Until "that day", and everything, EVERYTHING hit me all at once, and I've been scrambling ever since.

I can't change what I did. I wish I could. All I can do is be the best man I can be.

And hope.

Whether you have lived to tell about it or even just watched Shawshank Redemption, you know that "hope is a dangerous thing. It can drive a man insane."

PM,

My PCM transitioned me from Pristiq to Cymbalta in mid-2011. I was on it from July 2011 thru late January or early February 2012. It worked well. I began to wean myself off of Cymbalta in late December 2011. I went WAY too fast. I didn't experience any 'brain zaps' as they are called, but, I was definitely moody.

One side effect of the time frame I used was due to what else Cymbalta can treat - fibromyalgia. Once I went completely off of it, my body ached for weeks - everywhere. This was due to the fact that all I had were capsules and just started spacing out the days that I took them. THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY!!! You can buy empty capsules and divide the contents of the capsules up - which is what most doctors I've talked to since recommend. All of the symptoms (aches, pains, moodieness, etc..) were gone by late May, which is when I started to actually heal...

Again, I am not a doctor, this was just my experience and some info from research I have done. I wish you luck with whichever path you choose.

Brian

"Hope is a dangerous thing. It can drive a man insane."

AMEN!!!!!

(Love that movie)

Hope is a dangerous thing.

Patient, I read (skimmed) your other posts and saw nothing about drinking. That puts a different spin on things. I'm not surprised at her family life. The picture all begins to make sense now, doesn't it.

Are you in a program?

About her interactions with the other man, there are things we do in life that we know we shouldn't but we do them because they make us feel better. Many times they aren't good for us and we wish we could stop. We beseech all that's holy, bargain with ourselves and lie to ourselves "Only one more time can't hurt."

Can you have empathy for where she is right now?

I usually don't comment too much about affairs because that's not my sitch but I did have an EA years ago. It was all about the fantasy and things that my H wasn't doing for me at the time.

Only you know where your line is. But don't set boundaries or give ultimatums for the purpose of changing her behavior. That's not what boundaries are for.

Is she in IC or a 12-Step group?

Originally Posted By: labug

Are you in a program?

No ma'am.

During the first BD she was "done" and did not ask me to stop, but I decided then that I was "done" as well (with drinking). After that a couple of friends held me accountable by asking me regularly, to my face, if I was partaking in any of that. They realized that once I moved into my own place it would be really easy to hide. Those people don't ask me anymore, not out of laziness or complacency or because they don't care, but because they know me.

I won't be drinking again.

There is no upside in it for me and the risks are too great on what is a very slippery slope for me. Really, I see it as the decision of whether to drink or not has already been made and I'm just living it out. I am definitely not 'not drinking' because of W or to try and win her back. That is small and fake and selfish and stupid and doesn't help me be who I want to be.

Originally Posted By: labug

Can you have empathy for where she is right now?

Yes ma'am. I am naturally empathetic, instinctually putting the feelings of others above my own. This is intensified for the people I allow inside the perimeter of my circle of trust. Now anyone can say that, and I don't need to prove anything, but perhaps this example will help demonstrate that.

A year ago when I was sure things between W and me were over and OM was working things out with his W and family, I realized how bad it made ME feel that I thought my wife was getting her heart broken again, even if it was from OM. It seems like such a screwed up emotion to have...it would seem that should be what I WANT, but it didn't feel good at all. I just felt bad for her and it hurt my own heart to know she was hurting in this fashion.

That's just an example, but I am certainly carrying the weight of her pain around as well. I put that on myself, maybe too much, but it's definitely there.

Originally Posted By: labug

Only you know where your line is. But don't set boundaries or give ultimatums for the purpose of changing her behavior. That's not what boundaries are for.

I completely agree. This isn't to manipulate the situation at all.

Originally Posted By: labug

Is she in IC or a 12-Step group?

No ma'am.

Originally Posted By: bblake1968

Thank you (and everyone else) for your perspective. Meds may be the "best" option for me, but it's reenforcing to hear that it's okay for me to be a little gun shy of these types of pills. I just want to be careful and take the best course of action available.

-PM

All the ma'ams, are you from the south, military, or expressing great conviction?

The act of drinking, although a major factor, is only a part of the issue. My H also drank way too much and when the sons and I said it's time to quit, he quit. Boom!

But he didn't work on the WHY of his drinking.

Something we didn't talk about, the why. He quit and I thought life would be rosy. Not so.

I couldn't fix him, I could ask him to quit drinking and he did but the rest is up to him.

I attended AlAnon and learned a lot. I also attended AlAnon Adult Child and got even more.

Just a cautionary tale. Working on the why is important, no matter how you do it

I was just curious about your W and how she's dealing with things. She has to come to the place where's she ready to dig through the baggage she's carrying. It's scary.

One other thing, empathy doesn't mean you carry another person's pain but that you understand it. It's important to be able to emotionally detach.

PM, just caught up on your scenario, thanks for visiting my thread.

Seems like there are quite a few similarities in terms of 180s. Some differences in terms involving OM and drinking which I am sure make it even more challenging. I don't think that there is OM in my sitch (an EA about 1.5 years ago that I think may have helped trigger things) but maybe I am just being optimistic (or naive).

Sounds like you are doing what you need to for you and your D's so keep staying strong for them....... Thoughts and prayers are with you.

PM, also noticed that your sitch involves multiple B dates. Anything you have noticed that triggered them?

My sitch also has multiple B dates and not quite sure what drives that. I started Db'ing late in my process and I think that there has only been 1 since then but it was about 3-4 weeks ago.

Stay strong!

Originally Posted By: labug

All the ma'ams, are you from the south, military, or expressing great conviction?

Yes & no, formerly, and no. For me it's just a show of respect.

And I think I was in a "ma'am" mood.

Originally Posted By: labug

The act of drinking, although a major factor, is only a part of the issue.

Exactly.

For me it was extremely easy to stop. It wasn't even a little difficult. In that moment that everything changed for me and the fog of my sickness lifted, I faced reality with a new clarity. I could go on for a while about the enormity of this instantaneous experience, but perhaps it's best to sum it up by saying, with complete confidence, I won't be drinking anymore.

W is the worst thing I've ever been addicted to, and it's the one I can't seem to shake. I know the answer is to detach more, I'm just being honest with where I am and where I've been. We've been together since we were kids, and through this process I've learned that when I strip everything else in my life away (money, career, material things, reputation, friends), none of that stuff matters and I'm still this 19-year-old boy who gets sick to his stomach when she isn't around. And I used to get that sick-to-my-stomach feeling before we were even dating and were just friends. At that point in my life it seemed my soul recognized something that my head didn't as I never thought about dating her and couldn't figure out the feeling the absence of her presence gave me.

Originally Posted By: labug

My H also drank way too much and when the sons and I said it's time to quit, he quit. Boom!

But he didn't work on the WHY of his drinking.
...

Just a cautionary tale. Working on the why is important, no matter how you do it.

Agreed.

Originally Posted By: labug

I was just curious about your W and how she's dealing with things. She has to come to the place where's she ready to dig through the baggage she's carrying. It's scary.

I'm not entirely sure. I know where she "says" she is, and I have to take her at her word and respect that. Of course, she said she was past all the pain and resentment of our M and how quickly I turned things around, but then recently admitted those were still issues for her, so I'm not saying that I don't believe her, I'm just saying that I'm doing my best to not let what she says affect what *I* want out of this and what *I* need to do to get there.

The DR book helped me put into place certain strategies, it made me realize that some of things I had been doing were a mistake, but it also reinforced some of the things I had been doing. I recognized very early on - the day of the BD, in fact - that *I* had to work on *ME* first and foremost. Initially I KNEW I had to be a man she WANTED to be with. It took a long time to start actually FEELING that way, and that process is still ongoing, but intellectually I understood where I had to get to. My heart and soul seem to be lagging, as seems to be common based on many people's situations here.

(It's ironic how my heart and soul were ahead of my brain in the early stages of my R with W, and now the roles have reversed.)

DR also made me realize more about myself and why I was making the mistakes I was making. Most of it is fear-based, I think, but not the lack of self-confidence fear. I know I will continue to have an increasingly successful career. I know I will be a great father. I know I will be a great friend. I know that I have a lot of love to give. I know I can find someone attractive and smart and who I enjoy spending time with. It's just that that person won't be W, and as I pointed out in a previous post, in my mind there has always been two women in my life: her, and everyone else...and everyone else is so far behind I can't hardly even see them on the radar screen.

Even through this very difficult process I still think the world of her. I admire her sticking to her guns. I appreciate that she could be much more difficult and less amicable towards me and how much time I can see the kids. I may not agree with some of the decisions she is making, but I understand why she is making them. I understand now that this is HER journey and I have to carefully balance how to let her figure this out while supporting her in whatever way I can, without applying any sort of perceived R pressure. I admire how hard she is working towards becoming the woman she wants to be. I know it isn't easy for her and she's displaying such strength and courage.

If I am a good man, a good father and a good friend, perhaps one day I can be seen as a good mate. If the latter is simply a bridge so broken beyond repair that it cannot be mended enough for her to ever cross again, then at least I will be a good man, father, and friend. And I can rest my head on my pillow at night knowing that.

Originally Posted By: labug

One other thing, empathy doesn't mean you carry another person's pain but that you understand it. It's important to be able to emotionally detach.

I do understand her pain and it's kept me very grounded. I was just giving an example to illustrate that, but I am empathetic by nature...probably OVERLY-empathetic, and probably even to a fault. And I'm not saying that because I think that's what people want to hear and what might get ME the most sympathy on this forum, that's just how I'm wired. The aggregate amount of anger I have felt towards W throughout this ordeal is extremely small (probably too small), and that's because I understand her pain. I'm not claiming to know all that she is thinking, but I know that she has hurt, I know that she is hurting, I know what I have done to contribute to that pain, and I firmly believe I have been going through a lot of what she went through pre-BD. I think I mentioned it earlier in my thread, but it's almost seems like a type of karmic justice. Not that I believe in that, I just find the irony intriguing.

And believing that the awful process this has been for me is what she went through as well BECAUSE of me, keeps me grounded and humble.

We have had a couple of talks over the past week and a half and I gave some details of those in previous posts. I am really working on listening and validating, but one thing I did tell her was that we are still relying on each other, even if just as friends. I told her that I wanted to be sure that the hold we have on each other...I want to be sure that as she has a hold of my hand that I'm not pulling her down like I did for so long. If she's holding on to my hand, I want her to feel like I am pulling her up...helping to lift her up. And that if she didn't feel that way, then I am not okay with that and need to adjust. That's the macro-level angle of some of my 180's: showing appreciation, gratitude, respect all while applying zero R pressure. A difficult balance, but I'm not afraid of challenges and I think I'm making strides.

labug, thank you so much for your comments and questions. I appreciate your perspective and appreciate you querying me to make sure I'm really giving some honest thought to how I conduct myself throughout this process. I am nowhere near where I want to be as a man, but I am still improving and feel I am on the right track.

-PM

Originally Posted By: SemperFi00

BD#1: "You need to move out. ILYBINILWY"
BD#2: "I have feelings for someone else and that has been going on since before BD#1."
BD#3: W and OM were caught communicating again after telling their spouses they would be working on their M's.
BD#4: "I have to move forward with D"

I didn't start DB'ing until 13 months in...after the 4th BD.

Thanks for checking in!

Patientman, I love this comment you wrote "W is the worst thing I've ever been addicted to, and it's the one I can't seem to shake. I know the answer is to detach more, I'm just being honest with where I am and where I've been. We've been together since we were kids, and through this process I've learned that when I strip everything else in my life away (money, career, material things, reputation, friends), none of that stuff matters and I'm still this 19-year-old boy who gets sick to his stomach when she isn't around. And I used to get that sick-to-my-stomach feeling before we were even dating and were just friends. At that point in my life it seemed my soul recognized something that my head didn't as I never thought about dating her and couldn't figure out the feeling the absence of her presence gave me."
It's exactly how I feel, even though I didn't have the addiction that lead to my sitch.

Sad tonight. D7 was having a rough time going to bed because of the situation and I guess that extra dose of reality hit me hard.

And I'm tired.

I slept at the house last night. I think she wanted me to because it's the second time in the last week she's suggested I stay, but I'm not going to allow myself to think it's for any reasons that I want them to be.

I guess I just miss my family. At least the one that once was. I don't know what else to say.

Good night.
-PM

Patient Man, you're doing as well as could be expected in this situation. You seem to have a good handle on the mechanics of DBing. The emotions take a lot longer to get a handle on.

Grieving what we've lost is painful but it does get better.

You write about being addicted to your W along with self-medicating with alcohol. What hole are you trying to fill? What pain and anxiety do you have to cover up?

As you quit drinking a while back, I sense that you already have this answer and it's not important that you tell us; the important thing is that you know and are dealing with it.

This from you post above wasn't clear to me, And that if she didn't feel that way, then I am not okay with that and need to adjust.

Originally Posted By: labug

This from you post above wasn't clear to me, And that if she didn't feel that way, then I am not okay with that and need to adjust.

I was using the analogy that we were both still kind of holding onto each other by remaining friends and hanging out together. If she's (figuratively) holding onto my hand, I told her I don't want her to feel like I'm pulling her down like I did for so long. I want her to feel like she's PULLED UP or LIFTED UP by me. If I'm still pulling her down then I need to create more space. Essentially, if the contact we do have is still too much and is hurting her, then I need to ensure there is even less contact.

Does that make sense? Sorry for the confusion.

Her response at that moment was to shake her head and say she doesn't feel pulled down by me anymore. That was about 30 minutes into that particular talk and she was fairly emotional due to the discussion, but not necessarily that particular comment.

So my mother, sweet woman, wrote W a letter. According to W (since I haven't read it), there is nothing in the letter I disagree with, but it did contain messages that could be perceived as pressure. For example, my mother is divorced and remarried, so she has that relatable experience to what W is going through. She said something along the lines of her current marriage going through tough times and God can help us work it out. I don't know what the rest of the letter contained.

Aargh!

I spoke with my mother recently who mentioned she wanted to write W. Back when I informed my parents of the sitch, she asked if it was okay if she contacted W to just let her know that my parents loved her and want the best for her and are there for her if she needs anything. And my mother is genuine in this thought...as I said she's a sweet woman.

So recently she told me she wants to write a letter. What she said she wanted to write was a WHOLE LOTTA pressure, especially considering I have completely shut off that valve. I briefly informed her of the strategy I was employing and asked that she limit her words to reminding W that she loves her and anything else that was just nice in general, but NOTHING that can even be PERCEIVED as pressure on the R...PLEASE. I reminded her that she's a grown woman who can write what she wants, but I asked that she didn't undo the hard work I have been putting in.

I'm sure the letter is fairly tamed down, but even that she mentioned God could help us "work it out" means she isn't "getting it" or just had something she HAD to say. I know she had good intentions, but I guess I'm going to have to speak with her.

Context: mum lives out of state and has little contact with W and family in general, other than phone calls every few weeks and a couple of visits a year. Also, as soon as W got the mail today she texted me saying she received a letter from my mother. I'm sure it came as a surprise.

Oh well. Adapt and move forward! I feel better today than yesterday!

"Does that make sense?" Yes, but now let it go.

As she knows your mother, it probably won't be seen as you pressuring her. I wouldn't say too much about it or even ask to read it. Leave it between W and your mother.

Also yesterday, W left the kids at the house for about an hour and a half to "run errands". She let me know via text when she was leaving and didn't give me details on what "errands" she was running, but when I was leaving the office and headed to campus I called the kiddos on the home phone, and the oldest informed me that W was just now getting back - "like, literally just walked in the door" as she put it.

This bothered me. I don't know why, but it did. I acted "as if" it didn't and didn't ask any questions about it and played it off fine externally, but internally my thoughts raced and my emotions were affected. I realize this means I need to detach more, but I guess I'm just logging. At the time I knew in my head it shouldn't bother me, but it did.

Also also, I just got off the morning call with W. One of the songs on one of the cd's I made her back when I was pursuing her (for a year) was playing in the background. Is she listening to them again? For a reason or just because she likes that song? It doesn't matter, PM! DETACH!

Originally Posted By: labug

Thanks.

Things feel weird. Trying not to psych myself out, just...weird.

Acting "as if" as best I can.

Work is able to distract me somewhat, but other than that it seems like I am ALWAYS thinking about the sitch, and MAN can that where a person down over the course of 15+ months.

I hope you all have a good one! If you're waiting for today to be great, MAKE it great instead!

-PM

Also, I sense that she is "on" to the thing where I don't initiate contact. Before, she didn't realize what I was doing and she was being pulled in by me creating space. Now, it seems like she sees the trend and is reciprocating the treatment. Oh well, I enjoyed it drawing her in while it lasted. Though, the distance I feel from her during a normal day now isn't continued when I'm at the house. She and I are still chummy.

Last night she kept complaining about her back hurting. I took that as a hint for me to rub it, but I made no offer. If she wants to ask me, I'll oblige, but she has to at least ask (at least...that was one of my 180's, which technically was itself a 180). Or maybe I should stop playing stupid games and just rub her dang back. I'm pretty sure I can figure out how to do that without turning into a doormat. Of course, friends don't rub friends' backs...

Aargh! I'm stuck in that mental loop!

Wow, dude...we call it the hamster wheel...get off.

Ya, the no initiating contact was not a go for me, but H and I are separated by an hour, so I do not have much opportunity to create space...it already exists. But when I didn't initiate, he played as well. Now I initiate way less and only with something to tell about kids etc. Sure we will text about other stuff, but I always wait for something benign. That way, he doesn't think I am shutting him out and I can give him the chance to chat more without having to be obliged to, if you know what I mean.

In DB you do what works.

Oh okay, I might mention that this has just been recent for me, because I was not really following the path I had laid out at beginning for a few months there. Thought I knew what I was doing, knew better...I didn't lmao

If you feel like you're playing games, don't play them.

Who does Patient Man want to be?

If what you're doing is expressing the new you, the man you want to be, then it will sometimes be uncomfortable, awkward.

This Also, I sense that she is "on" to the thing where I don't initiate contact. Before, she didn't realize what I was doing and she was being pulled in by me creating space. Now, it seems like she sees the trend and is reciprocating the treatment.
is all mind-reading and will keep you spinning in a world created by your thoughts and emotions.

Originally Posted By: labug

If you feel like you're playing games, don't play them.

I don't like it at all, but sometimes the counter-intuitive stuff does feel like game playing. I'm okay with that in a way if it's a strategy and it's real, but I am not okay with manipulating the sitch in general.

Originally Posted By: labug

Who does Patient Man want to be?

He wants to be someone who rubs his wife's back when she says it hurts.

BUT...if there's a real and important reason to NOT do it (rub her back or any other example), then I can understand that. I get that sometimes the strategy is counter-intuitive, but it's confusing.

Maybe some context will help.

I used to LOVE to do little stuff for my wife. This lasted from the day we met until I started getting really depressed. We have always been the touchy type together...I used to caress her hair when we were just friends, and she would always snuggle or rub my back. Anyway, after I was sick I just never WANTED to do that stuff anymore. I wanted to want to do that stuff, if you know what I mean. I recognized something was wrong.

After BD#1 and I got my perspective, all those feelings came rushing back to me and I just wanted to do stuff for her again. I remembered why I loved doing all the little stuff all the time and couldn't imagine why I ever stopped feeling that way. So during my year of pre-DR pursuit, I did as much of those little things as I could/she would allow.

BUT, I believe I turned into a bit of a doormat, and that isn't okay. So my post-DR "giving her some space" has been to try and be somebody who doesn't rush in and fix every problem she has. Just listen. Don't be a pushover. Don't be cake.

If you're a ballerina maybe you can follow this, so here goes: I don't offer to rub her back anymore, which is a 180 from the original 180 of rubbing her back all the time (after BD), which was a 180 from when I was depressed and never wanted to rub her back, which was a 180 from when I loved doing little stuff for her like rubbing her back.

If you followed along with me then you see I've come full circle, and I'm currently fighting the instinct to do the little things. I guess I'm creating space and showing her what life will be like without me there to take care of things, which I understand the point of, but hate all together. I LIKE taking care of her, and NOT doing so hurts, but I understand it.

Regardless of all my jibber jabber, I'm just going to be me. I'm just going to ask her if her back is still bothering her and if it is I'll do what I can to help.

The whole 180 thing is extremely confusing sometimes. I'm supposed to do these 180's, but not that particular 180...see...that's a test (or something).

So in summation, I'm going to rub her back this evening when I see her, and I can do it without turning into a doormat.

That's who PatientMan is.

Originally Posted By: labug

If what you're doing is expressing the new you, the man you want to be, then it will sometimes be uncomfortable, awkward.

It's very confusing to "be myself" and implement some 180's and other behavior modifications. Well...which is it? That isn't directed at you, specifically, it's just a venting of frustration.

I think being me most of the time is my answer, but I've got to figure out how to detach. I can't seem to accept that, or at least go through the process.

Originally Posted By: labug

This Also, I sense that she is "on" to the thing where I don't initiate contact. Before, she didn't realize what I was doing and she was being pulled in by me creating space. Now, it seems like she sees the trend and is reciprocating the treatment.
is all mind-reading and will keep you spinning in a world created by your thoughts and emotions.

Excruciatingly guilty as charged.

Wow. I have extremely strong feelings of resentment this evening. I don't think I've felt this the entire time since BD1. I really don't want to be near her right now.

Why, do you know?

It's OK to have whatever feelings you have. Tomorrow you will have different feelings, that's why I try never to decide anything based on what I'm feeling at that moment in time. I wait until my higher brain kicks back in.

You should do 180s that work for you and feel right to you, things you know you need to change. An occasional back rub won't seal the fate of your marriage but you might find down the line that you no longer want to do that.

The other aspect of DBing, you do what works. That seems a bit game-like but it's true of other aspects of our lives. We should always be evaluating and adjusting.

We just don't, we become complacent, unhappy and stuck.

You've been given a great opportunity to reset your life.

Originally Posted By: labug

Why, do you know?

Do I know what?

I'm not sleeping great, but I don't understand that question.

Originally Posted By: labug

It's OK to have whatever feelings you have. Tomorrow you will have different feelings, that's why I try never to decide anything based on what I'm feeling at that moment in time. I wait until my higher brain kicks back in.

I definitely caught myself and corrected it (act "as if" and be someone only a fool would leave), but it was just a weird feeling that I haven't had in this 15+ month process showing up out of nowhere.

Thanks for your replies!

Originally Posted By: PatientMan

Do I know what?

It was in response to this:

Quote:

Wow. I have extremely strong feelings of resentment this evening. I don't think I've felt this the entire time since BD1. I really don't want to be near her right now.

She was asking if you knew why you had such strong feelings of resentment. I was curious about that too. If your feelings were that strong then it's something you should try to journal about. You definitely don't want to hold onto resentment because that can lead to bitterness and blaming. Journaling helps to release those pent-up emotions.

Gotcha...thanks.

Thursday I was at the house with the girls and just thinking about how I had to cancel something I wanted to do for myself so that she could work that evening. That got me thinking about how we are both RIDICULOUSLY busy trying to manage this new, more expensive life that has us separated and paying for two living spaces with associated costs. We're both working really hard, having very little time to slow down at all, yet we are in WORSE shape financially. It wasn't so much about the money - it's never been about the money for me - it's just that both of our lives are so hectic so we can TRY and figure out a way for this to work with us being separate. So much time and effort and energy, and so much less time and family stability and money to show for it. We went from making decent money to the point now where we aren't saving for the kids' college funds. I mean, what are we doing? The kids are spending countless more hours in the van or at her work so she can "support herself," and it's really hard on them. The whole family dynamic just plain [censored] and I don't want that for them.

That was the catalyst for Thursday.

Today it hit me again. I went on a campout with one of my daughters yesterday and we returned this afternoon. The campout was with a group of her/our old friends from before we moved this past summer as a result of the whole sitch. My daughter cried - and this isn't my crier of the bunch - and it just hit me again how difficult this is on them. I know that it is and the children are handling it better than I ever expected (and I'm SO proud of them for it), but it is still REALLY difficult on them. And my heart breaks for them too. They didn't ask for any of this. And when I know they're hurting I just don't want to hear that "kids are resilient...they'll be fine." I KNOW they'll be "fine," but I'm their dad and I don't want them to just be "fine." That isn't what the life I want to provide for them and the journey I want to set them off on.

Of course, I'm grounded in that I realized I pushed her so far that this life is a better option than a life with me. *Ugh*

I've had feelings like this before, but the love I have for my wife has always outweighed these feelings. The two times this resentment has happened over the last three days is the first time the love for her didn't outweigh the resentment and disappointment. And I found this resentment to stimulate something that hasn't happened before in my life with W: a feeling of NOT total attraction to her. It's a new and interesting feeling, to say the least.

You're so fortunate to have 4 intelligent beautiful girls. They are so lucky to have a caring father. You all are fortunate to have a roof over your head and everyone is healthy.

Do you see where this is going?

Make a daily gratitude list! It will keep the focus off of what W is doing to destroy your life and move the focus to what you have today!

PM, AS was correct, that was what I was asking.

Yes, sometimes it all seems like crap. But everyone has crap. Life is a series of events, some good, some not so good, some terrible.

Living is making the best out of what we are handed each day.

Gratitude lists are good.

Oddly enough, I didn't mind feeling resentful. Maybe it was just because it was something different...I'm not sure. I'm certain it isn't the healthiest means to do so, but it definitely helped with feeling "detached."

Thanks for the advice!

Living is making the best out of what we are handed each day.

PM I agree with Bug. This ^^^ is tough, however if we keep it as our focus, day by day, we can make our lives the best they can be despite what we are handed.

I hope you are well today. What a blessing to have your 4 lovely D's :-)

I am analytical by nature - I tend to get caught up and worry about the details too much, sometimes falling into a "paralysis by analysis" trap. I was just going to post some more history of my sitch to provide additional context and perhaps stir up more valuable insight from the casual observers who have the benefit of being removed from the situation and can thus more objectively opine. (Anybody with a problem and a thread here knows how appreciative the perspective of others on this MB is.)

But as I thought through what I was typing out I was able to step back from myself and see the bigger picture a little better. I want to get caught up in the specifics. "What do I do in this exact scenario given these exact parameters? Okay, what if this changes? Or this? Or that?" I'm trying to plan everything ahead of time to take any uncertainty out of this situation.

Well THAT isn't any good. Sure, it's okay to want to be well prepared, but am I learning lessons here or not? Is an important lesson that I can't control every situation and think of every possible scenario ahead of time, all the time? I think so.

I'll post more information regarding my and W's history, both pre and post BD, but I'm not going to get overly caught up in the analytics of it. As labug reenforced with me, I just need to be the person I want to be, first and foremost. There may be intricacies, nuances, and "ignore your instinct" specifics that I need to be cognizant of so I don't make foolish mistakes, but I just need to be me, and that's somebody only a fool would leave.

Originally Posted By: hotwheelsaust

Patientman, I love this comment you wrote "W is the worst thing I've ever been addicted to

"She's the worst thing I've been addicted to"

Actually, I stole that^^ from a song called "Run Right Back" by The Black Keys. If you like old-ish Rock and Roll (i.e. "Classic" rock/late 60's-70's), then you'll probably like them.

Most people have heard of their main street songs off of the last two albums (Lonely Boy, Howlin' For You, Gold On the Ceiling, Tighten Up), but if you stop there you are missing out!

Great lyrics, great sound. Kind of like an early Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, blues-ey type of sound, especially the stuff prior to their most recent album, El Camino (which is still very good, it's just more produced and radio friendly). The first few albums were recorded in the drummer's basement in Akron, OH.

Best Albums:
1) Attack & Release
2) Magic Potion
3) Brothers

Don't miss these songs:
1) The Lengths
2) I Got Mine
3) Lies
4) Just Got to Be
5) Things Ain't Like They Used to Be
6) Sinister Kid

That's a good mix of fast and slow songs they have, though most have a very recurring and noticeable theme that you'll likely appreciate. Listen to an entire album...each one is REALLY good and they definitely make an "album" instead of just a bunch of singles thrown together.

Overall: great sound + great lyrics = best band in a LONG time

But that's coming from a man who like his classic rock.

I had a..."different" thought process this morning. I kind of feel like I am in a season of "The Bachelorette". The show, which neither I nor W watches (but she watched a season or two years ago so I know the premise), has a few inherent flaws that make it somewhat humorous. The two main ones are

1) These people are whisked around the globe and treated like royalty as a means of courting that is totally abnormal and unrealistic for 99.9% of the population.
2) It's a game, and people inherently don't like to lose games, especially when there is competition.

I feel like I'm subjecting myself to the latter flaw, where I am so focused on winning the game that is getting W to want to work on a reconciliation that I am setting aside the fact that our R has some serious problems, from my perspective.

Based on reading other people's threads this isn't any sort of shocking development, but I realized that...you know what? I am ready and willing to work on my marriage. I still think it's the best course of action. BUT, I have a real issue with trust regarding W. I have spent the last year+ in this awful place where I don't know what she's doing, where she's doing it, with whom, who she is talking to, what she is thinking, and I've received no assurances from her as to what kind of behavior I can count on from her. I have been betrayed multiple times and trust has seriously eroded.

As I was driving into work this morning, I realized that trust is something she has to EARN back, and I recognize that isn't going to be easy for me. I don't mean to say that I'm going to hold something against her forever (or at all), I'm just being realistic. And I knew this in my head all along, but there was some sort of empowerment in this feeling this morning, as if *I* actually have some value. She's got to EARN it back...she can't just HAVE it.

I realized a long time ago, probably last summer or early fall, that if she asked me to move back home, I probably wouldn't. I don't want to confuse the children that way and wanted/still want to take things slow to ensure any chance at R is done the right way.

Now I seem to be at a point (at least TODAY

) where I feel a little past the "please take me back! Pretty PLEASE take me back!" phase. I WANT to work on this...that remains. But she has to want to do this too, and she has a good bit of work to do from my perspective, because I'm not going to be married to someone I do not or cannot trust.

I don't know if she knows this or if she thinks I may feel this way. One of my only confidants, my eldest sister, says I've been bouncing around between the three middle stages of grief for my M, and she thinks that my recent feelings of resentment might be an indicator that I'm transitioning into the final stage: acceptance.

Anyway, kind of a new perspective for me. We'll see if it lasts.

I hope you all have a great day!

Totally agree in the trust department, PM. Trust has to be earned. Acceptance and forgiveness is the ultimate goal but I've been struggling with how to accept without giving a little bit of my soul and pride away. I've seen other people who can really master living in the NOW, being responsible for their own behavior and extending grace without requiring any payback. I guess we'll know when we get there.

I had an interesting weekend. W got a babysitter so we could go shopping on Friday evening, and while we were out she called to have the sitter stay longer so we could go get dinner afterwards. I didn't allow myself to look at that as anything more than just trying to enjoy some time together as friends without the girls around.

Over Saturday and Sunday I did feel like she was pulling away a little bit, but again I didn't allow myself to take anything more than maybe she was internally wrestling with what she may have viewed as a quasi-date and what message that may have sent me.

Mainly I just focused on spending time with the kids, and when I was spending time with W I tried to be attentive and caring. Earlier on in this process I may have rode the roller-coaster up and down this past weekend, but I did a fairly good job of being a steady Eddie sitting on my picnic blanket and enjoying the long weekend and extra time with my family.

(In reality, Friday night could have been anywhere in between 1)her feeling me out R-wise and 2) her just wanting some new clothes and feeling she needs to butter me up to get them. I'm not going to waste my energy speculating any of the potential explanations - it's just an exercise in futility and doesn't change anything for me.)

I *feel* like I'm finally coming around into being me no matter what. I can't say that her actions don't affect me, but I'm doing much better at realizing that while I am affected, that doesn't change who I am or who I want to be.

And with as bad as this long process has been, that is something that finally feels good.

Make today a great one!

-PM

(In reality, Friday night could have been anywhere in between 1)her feeling me out R-wise and 2) her just wanting some new clothes and feeling she needs to butter me up to get them. I'm not going to waste my energy speculating any of the potential explanations - it's just an exercise in futility and doesn't change anything for me.)

You're right, this is crazy-making, but we all do it. The more you can tell yourself STOP and move to something else, the happier you'll be.

It dawned on me in another thread that I really need to improve my validation skillz. It's something that I'm so lacking in ability that I feel like I don't know how bad I really am at it.

Here is how AnotherStander put it:

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Validation is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ explaining/ negotiating/ etc. The idea is to A) encourage the other person to share more feelings and B) let them know their feelings are valid, important and legitimate.

1) So how do I learn to validate? What kinds of questions do I ask and/or comments do I make?

Maybe a better question is: how do YOU validate?

2) More specifically (and I don't want to get too caught up in specifics because the examples could be limitless), what about when W says how she feels about her appearance? I think this is a fairly typical and volatile example.

I get stuck on the same thing!

I only recently figured out that I'm not as good of a listener as I thought I was... working on that.

And the open-ended questions to draw someone out - that literally makes my mind go blank. I started a list of things to say and wrote: how do you feel about that? But can't figure out how to pull that one off without feeling like I'm a cliche shrink...

I've been trying to practice validation with my kids more and the amount of conscious effort it takes seems unnatural.

I can offer my opinion on your #2 question, it's best not to simply offer an opposing opinion of her appearance if she's feeling down. W: I'm having a bad hair day H: No your hair looks great! - not good enough. I guess that would be a time to ask "why do you think that?" but then always reassure her afterwards. But women don't like being contradicted about their insecurities.

Some posts info on validating, just to pluck them from another thread and into my own so I don't lose them.

Originally Posted By: Soupman

Validating someone's feelings can only be done unconditionally. When you validate your wife's feelings you have to set aside what you believe for that moment and then some. Otherwise you're not validating.

Whether validating or showing them "they done good" you have to do it with sincerity. Otherwise it comes across as manipulation. And she's likely to spot the difference.

Why is it important to you for her to ask how you are doing? That suggests that you're a little caught up in yourself. This isn't the time to make things "about you". You need to make this about her. You have to show her that you have compassion and that you cherish her. That you place her above yourself. You have to let your actions speak for themselves. Words won't cut it with her. To her your words are simply more of the same old, same old. You need to change 'you'. And frankly, 'you' are the only one 'you' can control. You have no control over her whatsoever.

As to your comments about listening, being mysterious, unconditional love, etc., I suspect, as someone has already said, she's just pushing your buttons to validate to herself that the decision she's made to end your R was the right one. You need to avoid those interactions along with old relationship discussions. Walk away from them.

Yup... a lot of patience is required. You need to 'make time your friend' dragon.

Don't let her remarks about the boys get you down. Just "dodge" her comments and focus on changing yourself into the person she fell in love with. BUT, you have to do that not for her but for yourself. If you're happy with the person you are now then no matter how much you do it's not likely to come across as genuine. WASs intuitively know the difference between what's real and what's not. Making changes for yourself, that give you happiness, is pretty hard for her to dismiss and looks very attractive to WASs.

Originally Posted By: Laurie

Scott,
Validating is what we do when we behave and respond in ways that tell the other person their feelings and thoughts are very important to us. (FYI - We can validate someone without necessarily agreeing with them.)

How can we communicate validation? Let me run down some practical approaches:

1. Good eye contact

2. Body turned toward the speaker

3. Relaxed and focused, not fidgety & impatient

4. Let them speak without interruption.

5. Avoid jumping in to correct, defend and/or explain yourself. Just listen!

6. Physcially acknowledge what they are saying (nod, lean forward) and/or verbally acknowledge (checking in with an "OK", "Uh-huh", or "yes" at appropriate times.)

7. Acknowledge their feelings ("Mary, you're really irritated that I forgot the garbage? I understand that could irritate you." "You told me you're hurt and I hear it in your voice." "You're frustrated about your job? It sounds like it frustrates you!")

8. Respond with empathy and remorse. ("I am so sorry our situation has caused so much pain for you." "I can see that I have done some things to cause much of your anger right now. I am sorry." "I am beginning to understand how important [source of her anger/pain] was to you. It was insensitive of me not to see this earlier.")

9. Asking questions in response to what was said. ("I just heard you say I made you angry. I'd like to understand, so could tell me more how I did that?" "I see you're upset and I'd really like to know what happened for you to feel this way?")

I hope this is a helpful start. In Michele's "Keeping Love Alive" series, she reviews more completely how to communicate well with each other. It would be very helpful and I'd recommend it!

I am also looking through Cadet's welcome post on the MLC board, which has a lot of info linked (and linked to links).

I have been doing really well...really since the 28th and I posted that I was feeling like I actually had "value", which was new for me. Life is still extremely hectic and demanding, but I've been able to focus better as well, especially in school.

W does NOT seem to be doing so well. In fact, according to her she's not sure if she's ever had a day as bad as yesterday. I had to fight the instinct to skip class to help out, and fight it a little harder to drive by her exit on the way home without stopping by to check on her. The rationalization hamster gets churning and I can certainly come up with good reasons, but I ignored that little guy and didn't stop.

I actually feel okay.

Originally Posted By: PatientMan

2) More specifically (and I don't want to get too caught up in specifics because the examples could be limitless), what about when W says how she feels about her appearance? I think this is a fairly typical and volatile example.

Well that's a tough example, because it really depends on her state of mind and how she asks it. Sometimes women say something about their appearance because they ARE fishing for a compliment, and so they don't want validation so much as positive affirmation. IE- "This dress makes my butt look big!" "I have to disagree, that dress makes your cute little derriere look so great that I don't know if we'll ever get out of the house tonight!" This is a case where validation may backfire, if you were to say "I hear you saying you think your butt looks big, how does that make you feel?" She might actually go looking for a bat to chase you around the house with, LOL!

A better example might be if she says "My mom just passed away, and now when I look in the mirror I see the same wrinkles and age spots, I'm turning into my mother!" This would be a good time for validation, because the difference is this is coming from a place of emotional distress whereas the above example is more superficial. A good response to this might be "I can't imagine what that's like, tell me how that makes you feel." "I feel like life is slipping past me, it moves so quickly!" "Does that make you sad?" "Yes, and I feel anxious too". "How anxious do you feel, would you sat it's a little or a lot?" "I guess in the middle." "Kind of like when D16 started driving and we were constantly on pins and needles about it?" "Yes, that's a good example! When I start thinking about it I have that same sense of waiting for the other show to drop." "I'm sorry you feel that way, it sounds difficult."

Constrast that with what the typical "guy" response to that would be: "Honey, you don't look anything like your mother. Don't be silly, you look great and you've still got a lot of good years ahead of you!" This is actually the opposite of validation. This invalidates her emotions and feelings, it tells her that her feelings are wrong, that she is mistaken. Validation is seeking to understand her emotions and to let her know you take them seriously, that they are important to you.

Sometimes spouses ARE just fishing for a compliment, and sometimes spouses truly feel that way. These are very choppy waters to navigate, so I was hoping someone had some ideas. I posted this on March 1st:

Originally Posted By: me

What I wrote was honest and direct, but I don't think it's very good "validating." And it isn't like I can say something like that every time or it loses it's value.

Anyone else have ideas on the spouse who ISN'T fishing for a compliment?

What about if spouse says "I miss you" or "I love you"? Reciprocating those feelings would be truthful, but I'm really in a mode where I have my feelings towards her shut down externally. I imagine the answer is "it depends", but is there a general rule like some of the other guidance given (e.g. GAL, don't pursue, etc.)?

Originally Posted By: PatientMan

What about if spouse says "I miss you" or "I love you"? Reciprocating those feelings would be truthful, but I'm really in a mode where I have my feelings towards her shut down externally.

If my W said that I would faint, so nothing would be said.
How about "Thank you" or "That is nice (to hear)"

Originally Posted By: jp787

Originally Posted By: PatientMan

What about if spouse says "I miss you" or "I love you"? Reciprocating those feelings would be truthful, but I'm really in a mode where I have my feelings towards her shut down externally.

If my W said that I would faint, so nothing would be said.
How about "Thank you" or "That is nice (to hear)"

Doesn't that seem like rejection to her? She hasn't said something like that, especially first, in I don't know how long. And she finally musters up the courage to say it...and my response is that?

I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to think about it from all angles.

It would take me by surprise too, but at the same time I have been taken by surprise by so much that it wouldn't surprise me to be surprised.

"but I'm really in a mode where I have my feelings towards her shut down externally."
Guess I was thinking from this statement.
Right or wrong if my wife said that to me, I would look her in the eyes and softly tell her that I miss/love her too.

Originally Posted By: PatientMan

I responded with: "I am sorry you feel that way, but [W], you are a beautiful, intelligent, strong...a VERY desirable woman, and I can't be around much anymore to remind you of that as often as you deserve to hear it, so you need to stop beating yourself up with thoughts like that."

I almost wrote "silly thoughts" or "ridiculous thoughts", but didn't want to call her feelings either of those words (learned from this forum about validating feelings, though I don't know if the above is a very good job of that).

That is most definitely not a validating response, it's really kind of the opposite of validating as I described above. It's a tricky question she's asking though, in text it's hard to tell where the question is coming from. If it was a superficial "do these pants make my butt look big" question then your response was fine.

Quote:

What I wrote was honest and direct, but I don't think it's very good "validating."

Exactly.

Quote:

What about if spouse says "I miss you" or "I love you"? Reciprocating those feelings would be truthful, but I'm really in a mode where I have my feelings towards her shut down externally.

In the 10 months since BD I have heard neither of those phrases from W, so I don't really know what to tell you, LOL! I would have loved to hear those months ago and would have immediately responded in kind. Now? I don't know how I'd respond. I would be shocked to hear them, I know that much.

Well, she called earlier and said, "I know you're going to yell at me, but I'm just telling you how I feel..." and then she went on about why she feels the way she feels about the way she feels she looks. So I said, "I can certainly understand why that is frustrating...to put so much effort into something and feel like you're not getting the results you want."

I think it's good that she still calls to vent. If she needs to vent, I'm here. If she needs me for anything, I'm here. I am not pursuing, and that's changed the dynamic of things quite a bit (it's been about 3 months since I read the book and found the forum), but that doesn't mean I am not here and in support of her.

This is definitely not the reason I am doing it, but not pursuing does cause her to temperature check me from time to time. The distance and pursuit dynamic certainly seems to be in effect.

It's interesting to feel like I am a step removed from all of this...almost like I'm watching it from a distance. She's on the roller coaster and I'm watching from behind the protected area. I'm there, just not on it with her.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

I was just looking to see if there was a general rule on this, and it appears not. I'll look through the piecing forum.

Thanks!

Kind of a bad day today for me today. W's L pressed for details for the divorce decree and so I discussed that over email. Based on another thread I found out I can look online and see if a divorce petition has been filed, which I find out it was back in February. Our state has a 60 day waiting period from the time of petition. I didn't know that the 60 days was from the filing of petition and I also didn't know that she had actually filed.

She hasn't discussed the divorce petition filing with me, when the 60 days is in effect, when that period is over, or what to expect. She hasn't kept me in the loop at all. And since I don't ask about the R, I haven't brought it up.

Also today I found out that one of her employer's paychecks has not been hitting our joint bank account, meaning she's funneling money into a personal account knowing that finances for her will be tough post-D. I understand that this provides her with some security, but it's just the deceit that keeps hurting me.

I'm trying to let me feelings subside, but I am hurt and confused as to why the deceit keeps coming.

1) Talking to the OM while we are still M.
2) Moving forward with the divorce without keeping me in the loop as to her plans.
3) Setting aside personal money while our joint account pays our bills (and we are scraping by given we are paying for two living spaces).

I'm past fooling myself into thinking there is much hope, but I have repeatedly stressed honesty as the most important thing to me, and I'm having trouble with the continuous deceit.

I need to recover emotionally so I can think about this rationally, but are there any suggestions? I'm in a bad spot right now. When I feel betrayed like this I have trouble being around her and want to cut off communication.

So I'm stuck.

Option 1: continue with my plan/strategy. Be someone only a fool would leave. Do not fuel her fire. 1st Corinthians tells me that love keeps no record of wrongs, that it always hopes, and always perseveres.

Patient endurance. Never give up. So stay the course?

Option 2: further change the dynamics of the relationship, essentially drawing my line in the sand and saying "enough is enough". I want to be friends with her (I want to be MORE than friends with her), but friends don't betray and sneak and plan. Tallula reminded me that I am not her "option." I am better and have more value than to simply be an option on someone else's hook.

Who does Patient Man want to be? Where are my principles? What are my goals? Am I rationalizing bad behavior because of my emotional state?

I am having trouble answering these questions right now.

Tonight, W wants to hang out and watch TV and I agreed to earlier in the week. I have another option to go out with friends tonight, and right now - though I'm not the going out type - I don't really want to be around her. But those are my feelings, and I know feelings change. The truth does not.

Her wanting to hang out may be a good thing. Or she may just be lonely. Or she may just feel guilty about how she thinks I feel given the divorce talk is ramping up and the 60 day term is nearing. That is all speculation that I don't care to expend energy on because I'll never truly know, but those are all possibilities. If I could actually "know", then I would hang out with her if she really wanted to hang out. If it is pity then I don't want any part of it.

I guess my biggest problem with drawing my line in the sand is that I am afraid I will undo the hard work I have put in. Perhaps she does want to spend time with me, and if I react poorly to that it sends a bad signal that could be detrimental to my goal of reconciliation.

Who is PatientMan?

Is he someone willing to step away further when she may be ready to draw nearer, a potentially colossal error in strategic timing? Is he someone who realizes his value and sticks to his principles, sets his boundaries, and enforces them? Is he just a doormat too afraid to make a bold move?

I may be all of these things, I just don't know what to do.

I certainly am not outsourcing my decision making process to you, I am merely looking for the advice of people in similar situations who have an outsider's viewpoint.

Thank you.

-PM

She emailed me the divorce decree last night about 9pm. It's dated May 1. That hit me a lot harder than I expected.

Regarding the post from Thursday, I chose to leave after putting the kids to bed. The show she wanted to watch was a rerun anyway. She could tell something was wrong because it wasn't two minutes after I left that she texted me asking if I was mad at her. I simply responded with "no." Over the weekend, I spent my time and energy with the girls, choosing not to "hang out" with her at all. This isn't that huge of a deal given our weekends are busy with her working half days on Saturdays and Sundays, the kids activities, and church. My girls stayed at my place Friday night and I had my date with D7 on Saturday.

She can definitely sense that I am creating distance, and I abhor feeling this way, I just feel like I can't be around her right now. I'm sure she thinks I'm reacting to the child support talk and the receipt of the divorce decree, which is not the case. The sum of all the things I know (that she doesn't know I know) has simply added up to too much for me right now. I WANT to trust her, and I have tried, but I keep feeling betrayed. (I could add in some very typical WAW behaviors and rationalizations here, but will spare the space for now.)

I also hate that my different attitude towards her feels like it is pushing her away. I guess it just stimulates the fear that once she's gone things will really never be the same. I suppose it's just hard to let that go. I feel like I am stuck in this no-win situation right now. If I pretend I am okay, then I am not being genuine. If I let it be known that I am not okay, then I am pushing her away.

I do know that, once the divorce is final, she can no longer be the #1 priority in my life. I have to refocus that on my daughters. I "know" that, but it isn't easy. It's hard to watch unfold. I like doing things for her and showing her that I love her in my own way. Maybe one day I'll get to do that again, or even say it again. Maybe not.

She wants to remain friends and have things be "okay." She wants this to be as painless as possible. Let me emphatically state that I am not and would not ever make a decision simply to make things more difficult, I just don't agree that things post-D will be as rosy as she hopes.

My mind toggles back and forth between the idea of OM being around (which I am not sure of) and feeling okay with myself believing she's making a huge mistake here. The idea of OM can tear me apart sometimes, and I'm trying not to let it. I experience success and failure in my attempts, which is quite typical.

I am definitely bouncing back faster from my low points, so that is a positive.

I asked this in another thread, but should I tell her why I creating distance, if she asks me? Some examples of my possible replies:

1) "You have engaged in behavior that I said was unacceptable to me, and so I don't care what you do any longer. I have decided that I am going to live my life....and I'm going to do what makes me happy." (this was based on what Sandi2 mentioned here. I wouldn't say this in a rude way, just as a matter of fact.

I could be more generic:

2) "I'm just sorting through a lot of things right now and need some space in order to process it."

My actions are driven by many DB ideas, but the few that always rise to the top are:

1) Don't fuel her fire (don't make it easy to divorce me by being a jerk)
2) Be a man only a fool would leave
3) Keep the road paved home smooth

I wonder if sometimes those are in conflict with each other, or if I just haven't figured out the right combination yet.

It's quiet here. Advice/thoughts very welcome.

Thanks,

-PM

I am here for her no matter what, but I am not here to be used and walked over. She has to treat me with respect and honesty, and I do not believe that has been the case...at least in full. I DO believe she has been trying to sort through her feelings, but she has done that while in contact with the other man, and that is where the line has been crossed. She has stayed with him emotionally while using me for financial support until she was capable of stepping away and being on her own/supporting herself. I do not believe she intentionally �used� me, but it is effectually what she has done. This was and is wrong. I WANT her to be happy, but using me, being dishonest to me, dishonoring me and our relationship, stringing me and the kids along...all these are wrong.

If I let her know I know about her contact with the other man, this may make her angry and help burn the bridge to me. Am I okay with this? Should I just be vague about what I know? I don�t know.

Being there for her no matter what (as I promised myself I would do) doesn�t mean she can do whatever she wants and I'm just here waiting as the pathetic little backup option. There is merit to never quitting, and I am not quitting (and I take pride in that). A relationship is a two way street and she has to do her part.

What she has done crossed my line. If she can�t see or doesn�t want what I have to offer, then I let her go. I don�t want to, but I have to. I can love her and let her be.

-PM

Quote:

Thank you for this, sandi2.

Do you think it's prudent to give the reason why a change in behavior has happened if the WAW asks? For example, if she asks me:

"What has been going on with you lately? You seem more distant and withdrawn."

She doesn't know that *I* know some things that have transpired with OM. I am thinking some sort of response such as:

"You have engaged in behavior that I said was unacceptable to me, and so I don't care what you do any longer. I have decided that I am going to live my life....and I'm going to do what makes me happy."

Obviously I stole that last part.

Thanks,

-PM

First of all let me say this, what I told Alan is what I personally believe all LBH's need to do when they have a W who is in an A. But everyone's individual stitch is a little bit different from another person's stitch. In Alan's case, he is a young student who has been M a very short time, and he and his W have no children. She is up all night partying and many times, doesn't come home at all. Add this with how she doubted going through with the wedding, I believe his only shot will be to take the tough love approach and go completely dark.

I believe in tough love in most every case. But every case can't go dark, b/c of children in the home. But the H can still detach himself from his wayward wife. If he doesn't detach, he stands an excellent chance of repeating the terrible experience.....if they stay together.

I tried to read most of your thread to see where you are. It seems pretty clear to me that your W has been getting the best of both worlds. Oh I know she cries at times, and I know you still love her, but if I could open her up and allow you to see inside her mind/heart, I think you would be shocked to see how much she's changed from the girl you M. When a woman gets involved (emotionally or physically) with any man who is not her H, it does something to change her. First off, she knows it is wrong, and therefore, she begins to hide it. That is just the beginning of the terrible deceit.

I am not sure how it all came about, but just looking at most of the page on this thread, it seems pretty certain where you are currently in your MR. She wants to be taken care of financially, and you being an honorable man, will support your children, but she isn't quite upfront with you.....is she? It's b/c one act of deceitfulness can easily lead to another.

You have been confused over being friends b/c she doesn't treat friends as bad as she treats her H. True, and let that be a lesson well learned. She wants you for the times she "needs" you. When she wants to cry or vent, or need you for the kids. You keep saying you will "be there for her no matter what", but I think that's where you need to reconsider.

At the rate things are going, she will get whatever she wants in the D, and maybe keep the A ongoing. If so, then she thinks things will continue with the two of you as they have been these past few months. You being there for her.......even though you say she can't treat you just any old way......she has, hasn't she? IDK the whole story, so I could be missing something, but from what I've learned, the WAW who is in an A usually doesn't reach the point of wanting to R as long as the LBH is always there for her. (This is not the same as continuing a R with his children. However, she can use the kids as a tool....as well as he can.) In the successful R that I know about, the W has to recognize or experience loss. That loss has to be tied in with the life she had with her H. If he always makes himself available (being there for her no matter what), then what will she lose that she wasn't willing to give up? And if she began to wonder if she really had lost something from him, she'd just test him to see if it was true. Intimacy? Sure, why not! Just b/c a couple is D doesn't mean they can't still have sex once in a while.

I don't mean to sound cocky or cruel. I just want you to get your eyes open. What you've been doing hasn't worked. You need to do a complete 180. What do you have to lose? Her friendship? It's not a friendship. It's a usedship.

Oh, I almost forgot about the question you had asked me from Alan's thread.

I believe the less you explain to the WAW, the better. Remember in DR when Michele talks about the importance of having that mysterious element? Well, if you don't how, just start by not telling her everything. In the past when you both were working on the M, it was important to explain your reasons, etc., but everything.....and I mean EVERYTHING has changed now. You must stop thinking of her in terms of being your W. Besides, it defeats whatever you may wish to accomplish.

Learn to give very vague answers to anything regarding your feelings, actions, details of events (especially if it is asking "who with"), or future plans.

Keeps life more interesting.

Bare in mind that you are not required to give her answers about anything other than questions regarding her children (and anything else the court so orders). Don't try to see how big a jerk you can be, by giving snide remarks, or with a bitter attitude, etc. At the same time, you can't slide too far the other way and think that by telling her everything is going to help bust the D. It is to your advantage not to reveal everything you know right now.

Drop the rope, end the personal contacts (expect regarding kids only stuff....and keep that to a minimum), and stay away from her. Start a life of your own and be determined that your happiness will not be codependent on her. You have to reach that point before she will ever be serious at R.

Thank you for the post. I need to read that a couple of more times to make sure all of it sinks in.

I very much appreciate your candor.

-PM

Sandi2,
I am really enjoying reading your posts on others sitches because I am at a point on figuring out how I need to move forward if W continues with OM.
I'm takin l bits and pieces from each. Thanks

You're both very welcome. I hope it helped.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

You're both very welcome. I hope it helped.

I am also finding these posts of yours great. Thanks sandi2!

I am pulling this from another thread for myself, but I just want to say that it seems like everything you are saying is *clicking*, sandi2. Thank you.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I know you are in terrific pain and probably don't realize what your responses are showing her. You are showing her you are too focused on what she's doing. Thus, you asking about what she was watching, etc. You are showing that her reaction (or lack of reaction)to what you ask her, affects your emotions. Then you continued by asking her again, thus showing your neediness for her attention. Then instead of ignoring her jab about you taking whatever you wanted, you had to come back with what could be interpreted as almost whining when you said, "but what if I want to stay here?" Of course, your tone of voice may not have sounded that way, IDK. But judging by the fact you wanted to press on with a R talk, I kind of think it was.

Quote:

It seems like she expects me to just roll over for her and do whatever she wants.

I understand, but I'm trying to get you to see that you are not helping the matter by that type of interaction with her. The less you do at this point, the better for you. You may not see it right now, but you cannot "reason" with a WAW who is an A.

Here's the main problem with a WAW: disrespect for her H. The lower the feeling of respect goes, the lower the attraction. The higher the respect goes, the higher the attraction. Remember, women are not wired the same as men, and for a woman, she has to respect her H before she can have those "in love" feelings for him. So, it does nothing but antagonize the situation when you say these things.

She continues to stretch her expression of disrespect b/c she has the power to affect you. The one thing you can take power over, is how you will react to her. Every time you get upset, you've given her the power over you.

Yes, it will help when you are out from being in the same house. You will miss her terribly, so you have to prepare to keep your schedule full. Keep people activities as much as you can. Understanding and accepting that it will take lack of contact and TIME.....lots of time before she will want to seek you out again. And when she does, it doesn't mean she's ready, it just means she's curious.

It's a long road to reconciling. And, btw, don' t ever tell her you will wait for her to decide what she wants.....or that you'll be there for her.....or that she can depend upon you, and things like that. It sounds great in wedding vows, but not something you tell a woman who is cheating on you. You want her to wonder if she's lost all of those wonderful things in you.