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Posted By: tiggertiger Confused beyond belief - 01/06/13 05:08 AM
Ok here goes.

My husband of 10 years filed for divorce a month ago 12/5/12
We have 2 sons, ages 4 and 8. I am a SAHM..(I do work part-time from home) We are not separated and going to therapy....but....

Backing things up--late August, he said he was unhappy, felt trapped, wanted to pursue outside interests, have less housework and home responsibilities, didn't love me any more, and wanted to go to counseling. He had gone twice on his own and asked me if I would go on my own before going together. I did--the counselor said that he thought we had more good than bad...and 6 sessions would be enough to get us back on track. After that H didn't follow up--didn't like that response I guess.

I was so suprised--though we weren't really connected, we have an active happy family life, and we don't argue or fight. (problem!) Any conflict or problem we might have, he usually just expresses no preference, agrees with me or if he does oppose, backs down easily and with a smile. He basically does anything to avoid conflict or distress. H is the kind of guy who never gets mad, almost always seems in a pleasant mood, such a "nice guy".

I had long ago gotten used to being neglected, and a low priority to him....he's pretty independent/isolated, has no friends, no close relationships (not even with his parents), he is friendly with my girlfriends' husbands, and enjoys socializing, but doesn't make friends of his own. Prefers computer games, going to the gym, playing the guitar on his own.

Over the years I have been disappointed, moody, complaining, begging for attention and expecting him to make me happy. 2 years ago my mother was diagnosed with cancer and became consumed with her care as she got worse and died 8 months later. I was overwhelmed with taking care of my then 2-year-old and kindergartener, my mom, the house...everything...but came out of this experience realizing life was short and I was responsible for my own happiness. So I slowly began to change-- I forgave my husband (in my mind...) for all of his neglect and insensitivity and felt great! Started to appreciate him and was grateful for him.

Anyway--when H requested the freedom, and the counseling, I was immediately game, and excited for it. So began what I thought were the 4 best months of my married life. We were talking more, the sex was great and much more frequent, H explored new interests, was appreciative of my taking over all of the housework to give him some down time, we were physically very affectionate...

Then out of the blue that morning of 12/5/12 H says he is going to file for divorce that day, and that he has been "faking" everything for the past few months, he is done lying and trying to please me. He is miserable, and my resentment and anger over the years had affected him to the point that he feels like he's going to have a heart attack from stress. Agrees that everything has been harmonious and improved for the past few months, that I am a different person in many ways, and acknowledges that he believes I am committed to continued improvements, yet he can't let go of my past anger and resentment.

He was planning on leaving that day...but I convinced him to consider the boys...I think he hadn't thought things through...and he stayed...slept in the basement. We found a counselor we both like and have been going to him for several weeks. H says that he cannot see a full restoration of the marriage, he is willing to be open to that, but it is very unlikely, he really does want OUT.

He also confided to me that over the years he has been self-harming himself by punching himself and cutting his ankles with a knife to relieve his emotional pain. I do remember him having to go for x-rays on his hand which was not healing but he said it was a gym injury.

I feel deeply compassionate for his pain, and want above all else to save this marriage for the sake of our sons, and for the sake of ourselves. Right now we are focusing on his angre and resentment towards me in counseling...and building communication skills. I have always dreamed of a great relationship with him---and here I was thinking we were finally getting there...

So here is a rundown of where we are:

-we are going to weekly counseling
-H is in the house
-we are talking and doing things as a family
-H kisses me hello goodbye, goodnight, hugs too--whether kids around or not
-H says he doesn't want to send mixed messages, or raise my hopes...wants to be honest
-My birthday was 1 week after he filed for D. a few days before--he asked if I managed to get the sitter so we could go out to dinner as planned. I was super confused. Said why? I said I wanted him to be honest, not do things out of obligation--and said he did not have to get me a present, that I would understand. We did not go out to dinner but H got me a present and said he enjoyed doing it.
-I bought xmas presents (before the D filed) for H and bought some for myself and said that he was not obligated to buy me anything, I would have presents under the tree already, and be thrilled with them. H went out and bought me 4-5 little things anyway. very well-chosen and thoughtful gifts.
--New Year's eve we went out with friends, came home, drank champagne together, and H got up walked across the room and kissed me very sweetly at midnight.
--we sit together at night watching tv, chatting, share meals together, laugh with the kids, sharing our days, take them places, go out with friends as if nothing is amiss--then he kisses me goodnight before he goes down in the basement to sleep.
--over xmas he slept in our bed for "the kids" no sex or anything else.
--he sleeps in our bed on the weekends for the same reason.
--he doesn't think therapy will work.
--he lies quite a lot--hiding things--saying my angry reaction makes him lie. I don't trust him.
--I caught him in a few lies and confronted him gently kindly and with compassion, no yelling or tears, he lied anyway...finally came clean...and he said my reaction was very good--didn't cause him stress..
he appreciated it.
--no OW but has developed an online friendship with a happily married friend. She shares his sense of humor and "gets" him in a way I don't he says.

I was supposed to reply or respond to the divorce complaint by today or in the next few days. I told him I would not agree to divorce. Period. He can get a divorce anyway in our state if he pushes it through...he said that he would not be doing that. He said there is no "time limit" but he wouldn't push it through unless we had a huge fight--and he would let me know--I asked him--no more bombshells, and he agreed...but he would not be cancelling the divorce complaint. In six months if he doesn't pursue it further, it cancels itself.

Some days I think we are progressing...we talk, do exercises the therapist suggests, practice better communication skills...but he says it's not enough. We are harmonious, friendly, and cooperative. He texts me and messages me from work every day. Yet he does not love me. Says being married to me would be platonic at best...yet says he is open to the possibility of something more...not optimistic though.

Some days I see we have no hope at all. H says he respects, admires, likes, and appreciates me as a friend, mother, person--but he does not love me and probably never did and doesn't want anything from me.

Would like to coparent in a positive manner. The divorce outlined his wishes to see the boys here at the house every day for dinner as a family and tuck them into bed then he'd go "home" and have them every other weekend. I did say that I didn't see him being in my house for 3-4 hours every weekday living as a family being a realistic outcome. He said "okay" but seemed sad.

I have read Divorce Remedy--I don't even know what to do. I am very active socially and have my own life o utside of the marriage, I have a "life". we are not fighting and we are talking a lot and getting along. But he is not committed to saving the marriage...he is going for the kids on the splinter of hope he might change his mind, but he doubts it.

I range from devastated to terrified to numb. Mostly numb. Some days hopeful. H says he is depressed.

What on earth do I do now? I am Confused beyond belief...

sorry this is rambling and disjointed. I did my best.
Posted By: dbmod Re: (NA) Confused beyond belief - 01/08/13 12:50 AM
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Posted By: tiggertiger Re: (NA) Confused beyond belief - 01/08/13 03:28 PM
I know my post was long! it bored even me, and I was the one who wrote it...but I will write a little more in hopes that someone might have some insight. I wonder sometimes if we are piecing things together because H is still here, we are still talking, going to therapy, friendly, or if it is just him going through the motions...waiting to make his move?

Last week when I was cleaning up I found the documentation for a newly-opened bank account hidden (not very well) behind a stack of books that needed to be put back on the shelf. He has opened an account in only his name. I asked him if he had anything to share with me? He had promised not to deceive or sneak around or betray me. He said--no...and then when he went downstairs and saw that everything was cleaned up he realized...I asked him if he remembered anything and he said--yes and told me about the account. I asked him if he was planning on transferring money (he cashed in some stocks overseas) to the account and he said maybe eventually. Over the course of the next few days he admitted that he already began doing this. I said that it was unethical to take our money and put it in his name, and he agreed--but felt that "our" money was "my" money. I said he was wrong.

I realize that he feels so ready to flee that he has to have his safety net. I realize that he loathes deep conversations--he feels like he's going to have a heart attack--and we had a very good conversation. I still think he's being unfair but I understand where he is coming from. We have decided to keep things light except for two scheduled 1-hour appointments with an agenda to talk about heavier things...(plus therapy=3 times) This means I can't ramble on and on (who me?) and we keep to the point. It is hard for me to keep my mouth shut for so long, but it gives him space and me time to think before I just pour my heart out.

It seems like progress. slow. that's on my good days.

On my bad days my mind goes racing. He has betrayed me and lied to me so many times that I don't believe a word he s ays and then I feel like a lunatic.

hard times.

any thoughts?
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/09/13 10:47 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle

I was so suprised--though we weren't really connected, we have an active happy family life, and we don't argue or fight.


So many of us can relate to this. We thought we had great, maybe even perfect marriages right up until BD. But our spouses clearly didn't think that. So first, you have to forget what you thought about the marriage and now try to look at it from his angle. He hasn't been happy for quite some time. You need to figure out why and do 180's on those issues.

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Over the years I have been disappointed, moody, complaining, begging for attention and expecting him to make me happy.


Unfortunately this probably drove him away. There is a book called 5 Love Languages, it might give you some insight as to how you could have handled things differently to rebuild the love. Chances are that he too was sitting there expecting you to start making him happy some day. And while both of you sat and waited, you just grew further and further apart.

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So began what I thought were the 4 best months of my married life. We were talking more, the sex was great and much more frequent, H explored new interests, was appreciative of my taking over all of the housework to give him some down time, we were physically very affectionate...


Something similar happened in my sitch. After BD I thought we were growing closer and stronger day by day, but every time we went to the MC my W would say "I just don't want to try." It was perplexing to me because it seemed like she was trying very hard! All I can say to you is don't underestimate just how done he is with the marriage. All the stuff you're trying isn't going to change his mind. Only HE can change his mind, and to do that he's going to need time and space.

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Agrees that everything has been harmonious and improved for the past few months, that I am a different person in many ways, and acknowledges that he believes I am committed to continued improvements, yet he can't let go of my past anger and resentment.


This is actually good, because if he is acknowledging you've changed, then when you give him time and space he is going to be thinking about the new you, not the old you. So you're in a good position. You just need to quit the pressuring.

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He was planning on leaving that day...but I convinced him to consider the boys...I think he hadn't thought things through...and he stayed...slept in the basement.


This is going to be tough to hear, but if he talks about leaving again then you need to let him. You might read Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, it dovetails well with DR. The WAS feels caged in by the LBS, and they want out of the cage. So the LBS must open the cage door. It's the WAS's choice whether to fly or not, but the LBS cannot and should not stop them because it's pressure. You don't have to agree with him, but you do have to support him. IE, your response should be "I want you to stay so we can work on the marriage, but if you think leaving will make you happy then I support your decision."

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He also confided to me that over the years he has been self-harming himself by punching himself and cutting his ankles with a knife to relieve his emotional pain.


This is NOT normal behavior. He should talk to a counselor about this (not an MC).

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-H says he doesn't want to send mixed messages, or raise my hopes...wants to be honest


Same thing my W kept saying.

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--we sit together at night watching tv, chatting, share meals together, laugh with the kids, sharing our days, take them places, go out with friends as if nothing is amiss--then he kisses me goodnight before he goes down in the basement to sleep.


Again, don't read anything into it. He is done. You've got to back off of all the pressuring activities and give him a serious amount of time and space.

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--he doesn't think therapy will work.


It likely won't, you might even suggest to him that you quit going. He's just viewing it as unwanted pressure.

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I have read Divorce Remedy--I don't even know what to do. I am very active socially and have my own life o utside of the marriage, I have a "life".


That's good, you're a bit ahead of the game. But he is not getting time and space. That's critical. That means you've got to detach.
Posted By: BrightFuture Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/10/13 02:55 AM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle

Over the years I have been disappointed, moody, complaining, begging for attention and expecting him to make me happy.


Then out of the blue that morning of 12/5/12 H says he is going to file for divorce that day, and that he has been "faking" everything for the past few months, he is done lying and trying to please me. He is miserable, and my resentment and anger over the years had affected him to the point that he feels like he's going to have a heart attack from stress. Agrees that everything has been harmonious and improved for the past few months, that I am a different person in many ways, and acknowledges that he believes I am committed to continued improvements, yet he can't let go of my past anger and resentment.


It sounds like he didn't know how to make you happy. A big turn off for a man. And he still doesn't know how to make you happy. I'm guilty of the same behavior, by the way. My guess is it will take some time for him to start feeling comfortable with you, provided you are doing the right things.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/11/13 03:07 AM
Stander...Thank You so much for your comments and insights. Before this happened, there was a shift in me, as I said, when my mom died, I realized life is very short too short to be so unhappy so I forgave him and have been living a blameless lifesince then. Forgiving him (though he never apologized nor did I verbalize it) gave me the freedome to be grateful for him. I sort of "gave up" on him and my expectation for him to make me happy, and I made myself happy. too little too late I guess for him...I haven't felt resentment or bitterness towards him for a long time.

I have the 5 Love Languages (love it!) and read it with H 10 years + ago, I am aware of what he likes and vice versa--we just were too resentful of one another to care to put it into action as much as we should have done. I have been doing it much more over the past year...and in our glorious honeymoon period a few months ago--we were very in tune with this--but he said he was "faking it" and didn't love me or ever did.

That is VERY interesting about keeping the cage door open--thank you for sharing that. Tonight I actually challenged him by saying--if you want to go so bad then, what are you waiting for? I can only assume if you're here, it's work on the relationship.. if not, let's not drag it out...and he said--I am not ready to leave yet. I don't want to go.

Confusing!

also, he has returned to our bed. Why? who knows. I don't take it to mean anything positive.

Detaching is hard. I will have to think more about that. I give him plenty of space. He chooses to sit where I am. I started leaving the living room to spend time up in the bedroom on my own. Now he's there, too.

Thank you for sharing the similarities between us. I wish you lots of luck.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/11/13 03:15 AM
Thank you Bright Future for your insights. H knew very well how to make me happy. I told him very clearly and gave him positive feedback when he did things that I liked. He CHOSE not to do these things out of anger and resentment. This is what H told me.

I don't know if I am doing the right thing, but I am friendly, happy, and respect his boundaries. He hates lots of talking so I keep things light. It's tricky because of the therapy...but it was his idea originally, and he really seems to like it...so we go and hope for the best. The exercises are useful and in some ways we are making progress.

But then again...who knows? he LIES so much. I never thought much of a Facebook friend he had, but now have discovered that their friendship is deeper--at least on his side. He kept it secret from me--she is happily married and lives halfway across the country, has no idea that I didn't know they were friends. I told him it was an emotional affair and he said he never thought about it that way, and agreed that maybe it was. Said he would end it. I asked him why--if he wanted to leave--just leave and keep the friendship for support. And he said--no, he wanted to end the friendship anyway. couldn't tell me why. but there you go.
Posted By: dbmod (NA) Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/13/13 01:41 AM
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Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/14/13 10:05 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle

and in our glorious honeymoon period a few months ago--we were very in tune with this--but he said he was "faking it" and didn't love me or ever did.


It's a shame he thinks that way. It's pretty common for WAS's to "rewrite history", usually they didn't really feel that way at the time but he's not lying, he has convinced himself that he was faking it even though he probably wasn't. DR goes into this, don't try to convince him otherwise because it'll just backfire. Many people will drag out photo albums and retell old stories to convince the WAS that they really were happy, but they're in a fog and won't believe it. Sometimes the fog eventually lifts and they start remembering how things really were, but it can take a long time before that happens.

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That is VERY interesting about keeping the cage door open--thank you for sharing that. Tonight I actually challenged him by saying--if you want to go so bad then, what are you waiting for? I can only assume if you're here, it's work on the relationship.. if not, let's not drag it out...and he said--I am not ready to leave yet. I don't want to go.


Good! That's what you should do. Dobson says that often when the LBS opens the cage door, when the WAS looks out they're not so sure they want that "freedom" after all. That may be what happened. Just leave the door open now. If he brings up leaving then tell him you understand and support his decision. He'll probably keep bringing it up to "test the waters" for a while, kind of a temperature check to see where you are.

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also, he has returned to our bed. Why? who knows. I don't take it to mean anything positive.


It's a good sign, but you're right in not trying to read anything into it. Michele says that when there are "baby steps" like that then just celebrate them internally and keep your DB'ing up externally.

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Detaching is hard. I will have to think more about that. I give him plenty of space. He chooses to sit where I am. I started leaving the living room to spend time up in the bedroom on my own. Now he's there, too.


That's OK, detaching just means giving him space. If he chooses to close the gap then don't feel like you need to run away. Just don't pursue him.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/15/13 03:38 AM
Thank you so much once again for your thoughts and feedback, AnotherStander. What does your username mean by the way?

We had therapy on Saturday. H has a MAJOR problem with dishonesty and communication--avoids big emotions by lying, agreeing, acquiesing to my wishes (without letting on he is doing that...and now it shows up by him having "heart attack" like pains in his chest if we are talking about something tough. Therapist called it a panic attack and H agreed.

I asked if we could move to a solutions-based therapy instead of hashing over the past so much, and he agreed...but H has to want to do that--and H said that he not only doesn't love me, he doesn't like me. Ouch.

At the end, T asked if we were coming back next week and H said, "YES!" I said--what is the point? H looked sort of surprised--and I said--fine, we need to work on trust whether we are together or not--I will be here.

So Sunday I planned a day to give him his space--and told H that I would be going for a walk with my friend, and then coming back to take the boys out for the rest of the day. H could go to the gym or chill out or just anything. He had said he was all wound up from the session. My friend had to reschedule, so I was ready to take the boys earlier--and told him I was planning to take them out to a wolf sanctuary--and he said he would love to go...I said--you do know that I was planning on taking the boys--and he said he wanted to go with us. I said--sure, but you do realize that I will be there, right? smiling...and he said--yes--you misunderstood. We had a REALLY nice time, went out to dinner, and talked and laughed at home when we got home. a lovely fun family day.

The drama continues. Regarding the emotional affair FB friend I mentioned earlier--on Friday H decided to tell her that she couldn't contact him any more. I have been asking the nature of their relationship and he has lied many times about it. I am not sure what I believe, but she does live 1000 miles away and is happily married so I tend to believe that it was light and fun and an ego boost for H. Today she called H and accused ME
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/15/13 03:49 AM
oops sorry, that last post got away from me smile. she Accused ME of writing a comment on an old retired blog webpage of hers that said she was a husband stealer. I did NOT do this. H believed me. She was very upset and told H to tell me that HER H was the most wonderful man in the world, and she would never try to steal my H. She unfriended him and demanded that he never contact her again. Huh? I think she did this herself...I don't know. I don't get it, but H is sad that he lost his friend, it was fun and "safe" as he said, things were light and fun. Did I mention that H has NO friends at all? I feel strangely sad that he lost his one friend, even though he betrayed ME...I do not trust anything he says, I sometimes wonder why on earth I would want to be with someone so dishonest, but then I know that our family, our boys are worth it, and H has lost his way somehow. He is not remorseful for the emotional affair. it's like he feels entitled to it.

he just got a new job...and says when he begins the new job, if he isn't "happier" he will leave. I said if he doesn't take an active part then he might as well leave. nothing can be accomplished in 6 weeks...which is the approximate timeframe we are talking about. I dont' even know which stance to take.

When we have a great time together, he says he gets sad...and thinks about the boys....should I keep up living a happy family life? how can I detach and make sure we are still together as a family.

Just now he kissed me goodnight and went to bed. I told him to be true to himself--don't kiss me or anything if he doesn't even like me...don't buy gifts for my birthday or christmas...but he does it. trying not to read into it too much...but I do get hopeful. We are very harmonious. sorry to ramble. Just thinking out loud.

Thanks again, you know it means SO much.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/15/13 11:56 AM
quick question...in becoming detached does that mean I don't do favors for H and things I would normally do? for instance this morning H was annoyed that he couldn't find his protein powder to make a shake after going to the gym. He swore he had bought a new can recently. The normal me would take note and buy him another can. Part of me thinks now--well go get your own can then...and do your own laundry and make your own dinner while you're at it. Those last two things would be very out of character for our relationship, and noticeable to the kids. I know he would thank me for the favor--"thank you for doing that, it was thoughtful of you" but it wouldn't change anything. Same sort of thing--"I'm going downstairs--Can I get you a drink?" He is still doing these little favors for me.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/20/13 02:28 AM
Detaching seems dishonest. Though he is struggling with his decision to stay or leave, you would never guess by looking at us that we were anything but happy. We have fun with the kids, we laugh and share stuff, kiss hello goodbye goodnight--go to therapy--it's not all sunshine and roses, but we are working at...something....right now he says his goal is to build trust and become honest with me. I said because I don't trust him our realtionship is built on sand. Therapist said that with his honesty we could build trust and a foundation of granite. H liked the sound of that and has said he intends to do that. Whether the foundation will be to build a strong marriage, friendship or coparenting relationship on---well that remains to be seen...but he is committed to that. If he was out the door he would have no real reason to be friendly when the kids weren't around, or agree to go out with me (to a bat mitzvah, a cocktail party, birthday parties--he could easily make excuses or simply refuse to go--instead he says, "sure that sounds fun")

not sure if 180s or detaching would work. I truly have a life. Went out to dinner last night with a girlfriend and H called twice in three hours to say "hi", wonder where I was when I'd be home...

not sure if I should maintain a happy household....or be absent...detached. Not sure where we really are---H has not committed to staying--yet he stays...

I truly am confused!! and if I ask for clarification from H--he says he is just as confused!!

hellllppppp. wink
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/22/13 01:11 AM
anyone?
Posted By: MrBond Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/22/13 01:27 AM
"right now he says his goal is to build trust and become honest with me."

This is the biggest point. Did you have a specific question?
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/24/13 09:41 PM
Thanks for responding..yes I do have a question.

I know the ball is in H's court whether he decides to stay or go.

I don't know if I should "detach" or keep on with building a happy, harmonious family life that includes him.

His goal to build trust and be honest doesn't mean he will stay. He says it will be necessary to have a healthy relationship with me so that we can coparent in a positive manner if he leaves.

So keeping in mind that he may leave, I don't know if detaching and giving him space to think serves me better if I want to save the marriage.

Or if acting "as if" we already have a happy marriage is better.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/24/13 09:48 PM
Aside from you wanting to stay married, what are YOUR wants and needs? In what ways have you changed? And I don't mean you saying "I'm more trustworthy, etc.". What measurable changes have you done to yourself? Have you looked different or done anything to improve certain things that he might have had an issue with?
Posted By: Accuray Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/25/13 03:18 AM
Hi TigWinkle,

Your story bore some similarities to my sitch. I will spare you all the details, but I believe that your H was more in love with this OW than he is letting on. As a result, he's going to go through a phase of mourning that lost love, and that phase will likely be very difficult for you.

After he works through that, he may turn back to the marriage, he may turn to another OW, and he may decide to be alone. In my own experience, if you can "act as if", and appreciate if he will "act as if", then don't worry too much about his motivations. Don't worry if he is doing things "out of obligation" even though it hurts. How we feel often follows how we act, so if he starts "acting married", he may start feeling married again, although it may take a year or more to get there. In the meantime, he'll likely say mean or angry things, he'll make you feel like he doesn't care, and in general may do or say things that would make you feel unworthy. It's your choice as to whether or not you want to ride that out. You can get back to a better place, but not without a lot of pain and more time than you would think would be required.

"Detaching" is not about excluding him, or cutting him out of your life, or not doing favors for him. Detaching means that your emotions and self-worth are not driven by his reaction to you. If you are truly detached, then when he is mean to you, you feel sorry for him but it has no impact on how you feel about yourself. Detaching is about getting in touch with your inner strength and your self-worth, and using that to guide your emotions instead of a reflected sense of self based on how your spouse treats you.

I'm sorry you're going through this, it's going to take a long time to get back to good. What have you identified about yourself or your own behaviors that you intend to improve? What 180's are you most proud of, or do you intend to be most proud of?

Accuray
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/25/13 03:40 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
Detaching seems dishonest.


It sounds like you don't quite understand detachment, it's not an either/ or choice (IE, you make it sound like your choice is either a happy family or detachment). As Accuray described, it's about disassociating yourself from your H's roller coaster ride. Here's something Peanut posted some time ago that describes it so well that I find it easier to just keep reposting it rather than try and put it in my own words:

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II. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.

We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ĎI am not getting what I want so I must pull back.í

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."


Quote:
right now he says his goal is to build trust and become honest with me. I said because I don't trust him our realtionship is built on sand.


He said he's trying to BUILD trust. It takes time. Are you unwilling to work at it? Do you not think you can ever trust him again? Because if you think that, then there's not much hope for your M.

Quote:
not sure if 180s or detaching would work. I truly have a life. Went out to dinner last night with a girlfriend and H called twice in three hours to say "hi", wonder where I was when I'd be home...


Sounds to me like it IS working. The idea of GAL is you feel better about yourself, and at the same time you create some mystery in the R. "Where is she? What is she doing? Am I going to lose her? Is she not just going to sit at home waiting for me? What's going on here, I thought I controlled everything?" These are the thoughts you want bouncing around in his head. As long as he thinks you are a safe alternative in case his main plans fall through, he'll never invest in saving the M.

Quote:
not sure if I should maintain a happy household....or be absent...detached.


See above, detachment is NOT being absent and it is mutually exclusive from maintaining a happy household.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/25/13 07:39 PM
Thanks for your responses and insight. Accuray...I have done so much work on myself consistency and without fail since late August when H said he was unhappy with several things. I even began many of these things before H said he was unhappy, on my own when my mom died and I realized life is too short to be grumpy and resentful that someone else wasn't making me happy. Decided to make myself happy.

The main things I have done are

--I don't bring my emotions (anger, crying, yelling) to discussions. I talk in a neutral, thoughtful way after thinking about what I am going to say for several hours or days. I keep things to the point and listen hard to what he is saying. I acknowledge when he is right or has a point.

--I don't expect or ask him to do anything around the house. I take care of all of the shopping, cooking, laundry, cleaning, bill paying--everything. Things got off kilter when my mother was dying and I never picked up the slack.

--I take interest in his work, his hobbies and ask a lot of questions about his day. He has responded to this by bringing home things from work to illustrate to me what he is doing. It's pretty interesting. He demonstrates what he learned in his guitar class or martial arts class.

--I thank him for things and appreciate him verbally much more.

If your description of detaching is correct, then I am detached. I feel so much compassion for him and his struggles right now, and I know that whatever he has done has nothing to do with me. His lying, sneaking around, not having any friends, is not my fault, it was his choice. I feel horrible that he is so much pain, but other than support him in his journey, his pain is nothing that I can fix.

I think you are right that I don't quite understand detachment so I thank you for that description.

I think it is possible that he "misses" her. They never met, but shared a comraderie and friendship that he does not have in real life--no friends at all--and I even feel bad for him for not having that in his life. How weird is that? I wouldn't say that he "loves" her. I have seen their phone activity, no call longer than 5 mins. I believe it was light and fun with little depth, but I still believe it was deeply important to H.

I believe that I am an amazing person. H also says this--he says I am a wonderful friend, a generous person, an amazing mother--I have been lazy in my friendship with him at best, and dismissive, rude, grumpy and mean at worst. Careless. I am sure he hasn't felt special in my eyes for a long time.

Since August (and even before) I have turned all of this around. I know there is a long way to go, but the sense of self-worth that I get from being in tune with him is worth it to me personally. I have bad days when I am sad, but I don't change my behavior towards him. No silent treatment, glaring looks or stomping around. Just peaceful cheerfulness and respect. I have come a long way.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/25/13 07:47 PM
Thank you AnotherStander for the quotes and more information about detachment. I think I get it. Thank you.

I most definitely want to build trust and believe in my husband. I believe him when he says he is trying. It is easy to doubt him, hard to believe when he has lied SO many times. But I am cautiously optimistic that things will improve over time. He is undecided as to whether he will contact the OW again...he is too busy at work...hasn't had time to think it through. But says he will tell me before he does and show me the email he decides to send. Can't ask for much more than that. I have patience.

I hope that he sees that being married and having the family that we have is worthwhile...and make him realize what he would miss.

I think I thought detaching was respecting his boundaries. His boundaries are all over the place and hard to figure out, so keeping a bit of friendly distance seems to respect him. (not hug him too much, give him personal space, not assume he's onboard with family plans, ask him if he'd watch the boys when I go out rather than just tell him, etc.)

thanks again.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/25/13 09:40 PM
TigWinkle,

Your 180's and self-improvement look great, congratulations on that, I'm glad you had the epiphany when your mother was sick. My W was infatuated with a co-worker at one point who did not feel the same way about her. That didn't diminish her feelings about him in the slightest, so had you looked at the duration of their phone calls or read their e-mail you also would have concluded that it was innocuous, but she has since admitted that she was very much in-love. It doesn't have to be reciprocated to be real for your H. The only reason I say that is because his behavior supports it, and if he *was* in love with her, at least in his mind, then it will take time for him to move past it and the best way to move forward is "no contact".

Based on where you are in your journey a couple books you may enjoy and find value in would be "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" and "Passionate Marriage", both are thought provoking.

Out of curiosity, what is it about your H that is keeping you so motivated? Why does he have no friends?

Accuray
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/25/13 11:10 PM
Accuray, I know that OW meant a lot to H because he loved the sharing of common interests (sci-fi, music) and someone thinking he was fun, funny, interesting and smart (all true, but I had been too bogged down with resentment, caring for my two young sons and my dying mother to see this or affirm this for him.) H told OW that his wife didn't allow him to have friends so he wasn't going to tell me about their friendship because I would get upset.

I have encouraged him to have friends, but he blames me for not having any, says that when I set up outings, double dates, suggest he join some of my friends' husbands for a drink--that I am saying that H can only be friends with the people I sanction. Not true. I am trying to make it easier for him--and these are people he genuinely likes. In the past I have wondered why he has lost touch with his college buddies and he said that I wouldn't let him be friends with them. We recently had a talk about this and it seems that I must have said that I don't like one-sided relationships, and I would let a friendship of mine fade away if the other person didn't reciprocate....and H took that to mean that I was saying HE shouldn't be friends with someone who didn't reciprocate. I think we cleared that up.

H has a very low need for socialization in general. More of an independent lone wolf homebody person. Yet he misses the easy friendships of college (20+ years ago!) It is harder to make friends he says, at work or in our suburban neighborhood. He says he doesn't even know how to go about
it anymore.

I don't think he is in love with her, but I do think he Loved the relationship very much. H said he liked it because she lived 1000 miles away and he could keep things light and fun. She is married with 3 teenage sons, her H knew about their friendship. She worried at the beginning that H was "stalking" her, and also pouted asking him something like--"why am I not good enough to let your wife know about me?". She misses him a lot, too. H showed me the last email where she apologized and hoped she hadn't burnt any bridges, that she missed his friendship and being able to share funny stories with him.

Thank you for the book recommendations and your insight. VERY much appreciated.

Right now my main motivation to save this marriage is because we have two young sons 4 and 8, and I don't want to break up our family. I also love my husband and he is very good natured, easy to be around, smart, funny, and generally a very nice person. Even right now he is never mean spirited, never rude or unfair. Just deeply confused and hurt and tired of "being a doormat".
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/29/13 12:20 AM
We had a very good therapy session and a fun weekend-- out to dinner with the kids, ice skating, birthday party for our little boy with lots of family and food..nobody would EVER guess that H is thinking of leaving and filed for divorce almost 2 months ago. I keep forgetting too--things are harmonious, friendly and "normal"...yet...he will bring it up once in a while--that he feels the "same as before"...and still might move out...can't see things changing..

YET H seems to be realizing that not everything is my fault. It is hard for me being the only one changing, the only one remorseful, the only one forgiving...but slowly he may be coming around? Asking the therapist questions about his emotional health, trying to be honest and trustworthy.

Today his job announced that they are closing--just like that--no warning--they are ALL out of work in a month's time. He was saying how blindsided he was, how dishonorable it was for the company to spring it on them with no warning, how they had no respect for them as people, as employees....how they acted like they were family...and I couldn't help but see the similarities between how he sprung this divorce on me.

We were doing great in my eyes--more intimacy, more communication, more progress, more happiness than EVER. (he said he was unhappy in late august--I immediately put into action all of his requests--and then some...for 3+ months) On a Saturday we had amazing amazing sex...initiated by him...best ever in our marriage and in my life...I was so happy! then a few days later on a Tuesday he filed for divorce. So how blindsided was I? VERY. I can't believe he does not see the parallel between the mass layoff today and what he did to me.

Might bring it up next therapy session, or might just keep my mouth shut smile
Posted By: Accuray Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/29/13 04:16 AM
The WAS' are blind to parallels like that. My MiL cheated on her husband and then asked him for divorce, which wreaked havoc on my W, lead her to have a nervous breakdown when she was in college.

She cheated on me then asked me for divorce but was convinced that our kids would be fine. I asked her if she saw any parallel between her path and that of her mother and she said no, there was no similarity at all.

I wouldn't bring it up. Eventually he may see it, but even if he does it's unlikely he'll admit it. You bringing it up just pushes him away and you want to focus on things that draw him closer.

Accuray
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/29/13 03:05 PM
Thank you Accuray for sharing. It is sad to hear about your wife's experience as a child and how she followed her mother's footsteps. This is what I want to avoid for our children. We are both from divorced homes...crappy childhoods...except I had my mom--he had nobody. He says our kids will be FINE. that I am exaggerating that they will be affected negatively quite possibly for the long term. I told him yeah--look at how "fine" you turned out and he got quiet.

As I said H asked the therapist his professional opinion--H asked if he had a below-normal amount of compassion--and T pointed to the importance of sons bonding with their mothers at a young age--and not doing this does affect you as an adult. Gave him food for thought I guess.

I hate living in limbo. Never knowing if and when he will flee. I think you are right. Drawing him closer is the key.

One of the books you recommended arrived yesterday. Can't wait to get started. thanks again.
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/29/13 04:17 PM
Originally Posted By: BrightFuture
It sounds like he didn't know how to make you happy. A big turn off for a man. And he still doesn't know how to make you happy. I'm guilty of the same behavior, by the way. My guess is it will take some time for him to start feeling comfortable with you, provided you are doing the right things.


Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
Thank you Bright Future for your insights. H knew very well how to make me happy. I told him very clearly and gave him positive feedback when he did things that I liked. He CHOSE not to do these things out of anger and resentment. This is what H told me.


It sounds to me too he didn't know how to make you happy because you were difficult to please. Maybe by the time he knew how to make you happy, he didn't want to do them any more because he was already WAS..

I'm sorry but your story struck me because "old you" reminds me of "old me" I was always counting on my H to make me happy and when he didn't I somehow blamed him. When a man is reminded every day he can't make his wife happy, like BF said I'm sure it was a turn-off.

My H too had reached his breaking point in July and I had an awakening. Just like you, I was game. I started going to IC, initiated sex more, arranged us to go to group session as suggested by my C, planned mini trips.. Everything seemed to be improving... although from time to time I noticed his sad face. Again I chose to ignore those little signs. Then 3 months later he dropped D word. I was probably as shocked as you were. I don't quite know if your H and my H are similar in personality but I see both definitely cope with sadness and rejection by playing computer games. He did tell me that he'd play games to not go crazy. Your H chose even more intense way to ease the emotional pain. Here we are, wishing they had communicated their feelings to us before going to D.. but the truth is I think my H tried his hardest to communicate that to me but I was too busy trying to make me happy I couldn't see it.

Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
I believe that I am an amazing person. H also says this--he says I am a wonderful friend, a generous person, an amazing mother--I have been lazy in my friendship with him at best, and dismissive, rude, grumpy and mean at worst. Careless. I am sure he hasn't felt special in my eyes for a long time.

Again, this hits me hard.

I hope your H would come around and consider R in the future. It's been almost 3 months of DB-ing for me and while I'm definitely a better person, it certainly doesn't make me love/miss him less.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/29/13 05:21 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle

I hate living in limbo. Never knowing if and when he will flee. I think you are right. Drawing him closer is the key.


I was in a painful limbo over whether W was having an affair or not. Then someone here asked me if I would still be willing to reconcile if she were. So I thought about that long and hard, and I decided that even if she were in an A I would still want to reconcile, and therefore my DB'ing approach would be the same regardless. So then I did what I needed to do to get myself out of that limbo- I assumed the worst. I assumed that she was in a physical affair. And strange as it may sound, that made it a lot easier for me to deal with the whole situation. To this day I don't know if she is/ was or not, but assuming that she was made me face those demons and get past them. So where I am now in my detachment is that it no longer matters to me, it's behind me.

I'm not sure if this attitude would help you or not, perhaps if you just accept in your heart that your H is leaving then it will make it easier for you to deal with the grief and acceptance of that and move on and detach.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 03:49 AM
stilllookingup thank you for your response. I have thought a lot about the "old me" resentful, neglected, angry that H chose computers over me, and put me in last place after all his indepedent pursuits and hobbies. I am beginning to think H is just unable to connect emotionally with ANYone...the evidence is that he has no friends at all...I do mean none...and makes no effort to keep in touch with his family members, not even his mother. This in particular is worrying.

When I say H knew very well how to please me, this is because I would gently (at first--then I admit--in a more exasperated way) say hey--I miss you, let's do something fun! Or thank you so much for thinking of me--I love it when you do little things for me like this...He KNEW what to do. I am not a mysterious person. I make my needs known. Crystal clear. He CHOSE not to do these things even though he agreed to do them (and not under duress, either). He told me he knew what to do but chose not to. Passive Agressive.

I decided that I was beating a dead horse in a way. That if I wanted affirmation, I needed to go get it elsewhere. I don't think this is a way to build a healthy marriage, by the way, but it was a way to get my needs met, and for me to stop "nagging" him. He had less pressure, and I had more self-esteem, and more gratitude for his good qualities--but still didn't feel connected to him all that much.

But Yes--years of me feeling neglected (which H admits to), disrepected, and ignored left me feeling like crap. And angry. How dare he...and that was no fun to be around. And heck if I was going to be nice to him after he was so horrible to me...and so the cycle began.

H says that he realizes that most of problems we had originated with him. Never mind that. I played a big part too. Now what do we do? He says he isn't sure he wants to do the work to undo years of unhappiness. H says good communication just happens, you shouldn't have to work at it. We are too different to break out of our old habits. I say--what about my changes? Oh yes, you have changed he says, but for how long? (ummm. so far 6 months + without stumbling once--but patience...eventually he will see it...maybe?)

My heart goes out to you stilllookingup. I am glad that you are a better person now. I feel like I am getting back the old "me"--who I was before I met H. I am not changing for H. My journey is for ME. I feel better. I hope you are feeling better too.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 04:01 AM
AnotherStander

Your experience gives me food for thought.

So if I am assuming that H is leaving then I should contact a lawyer to make sure that I am prepared and that I get the best outcome for me and the boys?

How can I go to therapy every week and wholeheartedly work on our marriage--and I do believe H is committed to improving aspects of himself, and our relationship...yet also see a divorce lawyer?

It is hard for me to draw him into me if I am accepting that he is leaving. It is hard for me to be supportive of him if I know he is about to break our little boys' hearts.

I am having a hard time in limbo. Do I act as if we are going to be fine in the end (after tons of work of course)...or do I plan for him to leave?

I have not asked recently whether or when he is leaving. I guess I don't want to interrupt his decision making process... want to be patient and let the therapy evolve...I also don't want to know the answer.

I don't think he knows the answer either.
Posted By: swoop Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 05:33 AM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
So if I am assuming that H is leaving then I should contact a lawyer to make sure that I am prepared and that I get the best outcome for me and the boys?
I am not going to say, "yes go" or "no don't go". I will say it hurts nothing to go for an initial consultation. You aren't going to file anything. You aren't going to start any process. All you will be doing is gaining some knowledge incase things actually do move towards D. A lot of time the initial consultation is free of charge. The decision to go is totally dependant on your choice. If you decide to go, do UNLIKE I did. Do not tell H or any soul that you have seen a lawyer. That information is only for your benefit.

Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
How can I go to therapy every week and wholeheartedly work on our marriage--and I do believe H is committed to improving aspects of himself, and our relationship...yet also see a divorce lawyer?
Think of a lawyer visit as a business transaction, because that is literally what it is. He is going to provide you with numbers and routes to take for certain situations. You don't have to be emotionally vested. You will just be sharing facts and figures.

Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
It is hard for me to draw him into me if I am accepting that he is leaving. It is hard for me to be supportive of him if I know he is about to break our little boys' hearts.
Nobody said this was going to be easy. How much work are you willing to put in?

Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
I am having a hard time in limbo. Do I act as if we are going to be fine in the end (after tons of work of course)...or do I plan for him to leave?
You act as if you are going to be fine either way. You are trying to convey that while you want this marriage, you are not going to wait around. You will move on with your life, with him or without him.

Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
I have not asked recently whether or when he is leaving. I guess I don't want to interrupt his decision making process... want to be patient and let the therapy evolve...I also don't want to know the answer. I don't think he knows the answer either.
Don't ask. Don't even bring it up. The less it is discussed, the less he will think about it. When he wants to leave, you will know.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 03:38 PM
^^^Good info from SuckerPunch!

Originally Posted By: TigWinkle

So if I am assuming that H is leaving then I should contact a lawyer to make sure that I am prepared and that I get the best outcome for me and the boys?


Just to clarify what I meant, I'm talking about mental preparation specifically. I'm just saying that maybe if you tell yourself that your H will be leaving at some point, then it'll make it easier for you to detach while he's still at home. Because that's what you need to do now- detach and give him space and time. It's your choice though, if you think it would put you in a worse mental place then don't do it.

I see a lot of parallels between your sitch and mine. We went to MC, we were getting along great, we were doing things together, it seemed like things were turning around. But W's mind was made up. She said things like your H is saying, this in particular: "says he doesn't want to send mixed messages, or raise my hopes...wants to be honest" My W said this throughout, right up until she walked out the door. Don't underestimate just how "done" your H is.

Quote:
How can I go to therapy every week and wholeheartedly work on our marriage


Don't put much hope into MC. I went back and read your OP and I just don't think your H will benefit from MC. The WAS never does get anything out of MC, they just hear what they want to hear. MC can be a great benefit to couples that are starting to have trouble, or to couples that are starting to reconcile. It's pretty much worthless to couples that are on the brink of S though.

Quote:
It is hard for me to draw him into me if I am accepting that he is leaving.


What do you mean by "draw him into" you? That sounds a lot like pursuit and now is not the time for that, it'll just drive him away.
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 04:22 PM
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Don't put much hope into MC. I went back and read your OP and I just don't think your H will benefit from MC. The WAS never does get anything out of MC, they just hear what they want to hear. MC can be a great benefit to couples that are starting to have trouble, or to couples that are starting to reconcile. It's pretty much worthless to couples that are on the brink of S though.


Agree. We went to 6 weeks of group session and we saw couples dropping one after another there were only 3 couples including us left at the second to last session and we were proud. All along my H seemed like he was benefiting from the sessions so much because he'd actively do exercises in class and shared his feelings. I remember at the last session we attended he marked a question Yes on "I'm done with all the negativity between us" and I questioned. He then revealed that he was still not happy. I was shocked. Here I was thinking we were getting so much from these sessions, and there he was telling me he was still not happy. Few days later D was dropped and we never made it to the last class. I really think those classes would have been FANTASTIC if we had gone when he started pulling away...

So I agree with AS. I'd be really careful about that. As your H may seem as private as my H is. All he really may need is time and space... and maybe leaving to think things through.
Posted By: swoop Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 05:43 PM
W's mind was made up. She said things like your H is saying, this in particular: "says he doesn't want to send mixed messages, or raise my hopes...wants to be honest" My W said this throughout, right up until she walked out the door. Don't underestimate just how "done" your H is.[/quote] My wife said this almost EXACTLY!



quote=AnotherStander]What do you mean by "draw him into" you? That sounds a lot like pursuit and now is not the time for that, it'll just drive him away.[/quote] Totally agree. Your time for pulling him in has past....now DBing is your path
Posted By: swoop Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 05:47 PM
I also feel that MC is not helpful at this stage of the game. Before our FIRST sessions my W thought perhaps we could get something out of it, but she was reluctant. After the SECOND session, she was DONE...she moved out that night. I accredit a little of that to the counselor being "pro feelings and wishes" rather than being pro-marriage. Either way, my W was not in a place to hear anything other than what was going on inside of her own head.
Posted By: E2Dad Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I accredit a little of that to the counselor being "pro feelings and wishes" rather than being pro-marriage. Either way, my W was not in a place to hear anything other than what was going on inside of her own head.


My situation exactly. My W and I both agreed to see a MC, and then an IC separately. Mine is pro-marriage and family while the first thing out of my W's IC was "no relationship lasts forever, so honor your feelings"..... I was hung up on that for a while, but unfortunately my W wrapped herself in that and never looked back. I have no control over that, nor do I have any desire to try to make my W "see the light" about her IC. I think that would be very counterproductive!! I tried pushing the MC thing for a while after my W said she no longer wanted to try, but in the end it's better left alone unless she brings it up.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 07:40 PM
Thank you thank you for your post suckerpunch. (like your username btw)

My husband HAS filed for divorce. it will be almost 2 months ago. I believe he did it after a LOT of thought...but at the same time impusively. He did not think that I would want to or be able to change. HE suggested the MC. I told him I would not sign it, and H said he would not pursue it "for now".

I would NOT tell H about the lawyer. No way.

I am willing to put in A LOT of work. You wouldn't believe the things that I can shrug off and not take personally...wish I had learned that years ago.

I will be fine, I know I will be fine in the end. In fact I would probably be happier with someone completely different than H. But I committed to him, we have a family together, and I will not break my vows. It will be something H does. I am not unhappy in my marriage--(was--but not anymore). Wouldn't say I was jumping for joy either, but content. I love my husband, faults and all. I feel for him deeply. I honestly do not think he will be "fine" away from us. He doesn't have the emotional strength or tools. This makes me very, very sad.

I will call the lawyer in the next couple of days...as a business consultation. To be prepared...
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 07:46 PM
Thanks AnotherStander, again for your thoughts.

I was referring to what Accuray said to me about "drawing him in"

Originally Posted By: Accuray
.

I wouldn't bring it up. Eventually he may see it, but even if he does it's unlikely he'll admit it. You bringing it up just pushes him away and you want to focus on things that draw him closer.

Accuray


That I don't bring up him leaving...I guess I should prepare for the possibility of him leaving.

If I told you things were so harmonious..we laugh, talk, he chooses to spend time with me, the boys. He isn't needing "space". We have a big enough house that we could easily NEVER see each other. Yet out of habit? I don't know why--we sit companionably every night chatting, watching tv...whatever. He has plenty of opportunities to go out, or just ignore me after the boys are in bed. He doesn't have to kiss me goodbye in the morning or goodnight or hello. Mind you nothing passionate, but he chooses to do this.

Why? Keep me hopeful? Keep me from getting in his face? Maybe. I dont' read too much into it, but I am not throwing myself at him.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 07:50 PM
stilllookingup--do you have children?

I think it gets confusing and complicated when kids are involved. If H leaves he leaves not just me, but his home, his sons, his life. He stands to lose a lot. I think he hesitates because he sees the big picture. I don't think he's staying because of ME. But I will never agree to a platonic marriage. For now, that is what we have...that is fine.

Maybe I am too optimistic? I still have hope.

I guess I need patience.

thanks for your insight.

I wonder if MC is helping. H says it is. He seems very earnest in wanting to go. Two sessions ago the therapist asked if we wanted to make another appointment.

H said right away YES! And at the same time I said "What's the point?" H looked at me like "really?" and then I agreed to come back.

so hard so hard so hard....
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 07:51 PM
E2Dad I wish our counselor was more pro-marriage. I think he is overwhelmed with all the problems H has. But we both like him and it seems useful. Whether it works for the long run..who knows...

How do you find a pro-marriage counselor?
Posted By: E2Dad Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 07:58 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
How do you find a pro-marriage counselor?


I just assumed it was the luck of the draw...I honestly never would have given "pro marriage" or "pro-self" counselors a second thought if it weren't for this situation. I wonder how many people actually change counselors for another that is a better fit for their thoughts and feelings.
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 08:02 PM
We don't. When we started trying I discovered that I had a condition that needed a surgery. Every appointment Dr would discourage me with low percentage of whatever, that started depressing me. I heavily relied on my H for support because I didn't like sharing my medical struggle with anyone else. I didn't like how people would say "it's going to be okay" when they wouldn't know. Yup I was cynical. Anyway, so like you I always wanted him to support me and quite frankly I think it was getting too much for him. He probably felt so unloved because all I seemed to care about was to get pregnant quickly.

Somebody like your H or my H, I wouldn't read into his actions that he shows in public. Like I said my H seemed to be enjoying the sessions very much but I still saw sad faces at home when I initiated to be affectionate. I think he was really confused.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle

I was referring to what Accuray said to me about "drawing him in"


Ah, OK that makes more sense. That's not pursuit so much as "keeping the way home paved smooth and clear".

[quote]That I don't bring up him leaving...I guess I should prepare for the possibility of him leaving.


Right, I was just suggesting that mentally you prepare for that so that if and when it happens it won't be quite such a blow to you. I was not at all suggesting that you say or do anything to your H to indicate that you want him to leave. I hope I'm clear on that. Have you read Dobson's Love Must Be Tough? He compares the WAS to a bird that feels stuck in a cage. He says the LBS should not force the WAS to stay in the cage, but should instead throw the door open and tell the WAS they are free to leave. This dovetails with DR which says that we should validate the WAS's emotions, so if they say they want to leave we do not agree or disagree, but say something like "I do not want you to leave, I would prefer that you stay and work on the M with me. But I want you to be happy, and if you think that leaving will make you happy then I support your decision." This is almost word-for-word what I told my W. She did leave, and it did not bring her the happiness she expected (she told me this again just last night). Leaving rarely does. But, the point is that if we try to stop them it is just putting pressure on them and making them feel more caged in.

Quote:
If I told you things were so harmonious..we laugh, talk, he chooses to spend time with me, the boys. He isn't needing "space". We have a big enough house that we could easily NEVER see each other. Yet out of habit? I don't know why--we sit companionably every night chatting, watching tv...whatever. He has plenty of opportunities to go out, or just ignore me after the boys are in bed. He doesn't have to kiss me goodbye in the morning or goodnight or hello. Mind you nothing passionate, but he chooses to do this.


I can top that, my W and I had all of that AND we continued to ML quite passionately. But she STILL left. I know it's hard to believe based on what you're seeing, but like I said before, don't underestimate just how "done" your H is (or thinks he is).

Quote:
Why? Keep me hopeful? Keep me from getting in his face? Maybe. I dont' read too much into it, but I am not throwing myself at him.


My W is just a nice person, maybe your H is the same. So even though she was done, she still loved me and wanted to treat me nice. By the way I'm not mind-reading, this is what she told me well after she moved out when I asked her about it.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 09:09 PM
AnotherStander

Wow...The still ML is mindblowing. There he has drawn the line..though I think he has witheld sex for years as a way to regain power...my theory. I am the sex-starved one.

H is a very nice person. My best friend who I have confided this in cannot believe he is so chipper and happy on the phone.

I am not underestimating him being DONE. He did file for divorce after all. He is serious. But his entire demeanor has changed since he did that. He was like a crazed maniac. He was cold, mean, decisive...he was leaving THAT DAY. But he is still here and he is happy. less stressed. having fun...offering to do things he doesn't have to do--go to a bat mitzvah with me...making dishes for family celebrations (my family) attending parties with me that he could easily get out of. I invite him on outings that I have planned with the boys and he happily accepts...he is not the STRESSED maniac that he was. He is calm and he likes it that way. he hates confrontation. So why confront if it will make him mad.

I am going to memorize what you told your W. I like it. We have discussed this in MC. The therapist said--what will you get out of leaving? H said he wouldn't have to deal with me that much, so it would be easier for us to be friends. That is when I stopped "dealing with him". He doesn't have to worry about me "ambushing him" with communication that makes him feel like he's going to have a heart attack (anxiety). It's all smooth sailing around here these days. We tell more knock knock jokes than talk about our relationship.

AnotherStander, do you have children? If so, did W take them with her? I know H is here because of the kids. Not sure if this is good or bad, but he is here. And I can use that time to show him that my 180s are here to stay. I have never felt better.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 09:13 PM
stilllookingup, I am so sorry that you had problems trying to conceive, I know it can be so heartbreaking. I hope someday you will know the joy of having children. Don't give up hope. My friend is 42 and is pregnant after 4 years of trying, with serious medical problems--including cancer--with no IVF either. I myself has my son at 42! There is time and there is hope. And children may come to you through adoption, if you're open to it. My heart goes out to you.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 09:14 PM
The thought of rehashing through all of our history yet again with a new counselor is enough to make me want to stick with the one we have. We tried three in all and he is the best. I don't get the impression he is pro-marriage or pro-feelings--he is a short-term solutions-based therapist though and that is nice.
Posted By: Grizz Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 09:46 PM
TW, the things your H has said I have heard so many times from my W. she doesn't want to send mixed messages, I am a great father and person, we will be great coparents, the kids will be fine, and she still kisses me goodbye (initiated by her). It is all so confusing (my thread is "confused by WAS"). Go figure. I am not sure what insight that I can provide except that I am in a similar sitch and I wish you the best. PMA is what I am really trying to work on now. But this is very hard to do because I do hold some resentment toward her. The similarities are interesting though. Good luck.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 10:02 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle

He is calm and he likes it that way. he hates confrontation. So why confront if it will make him mad.


Definitely do not confront him. No R, S, M or D talks at all! Keep things light and fluffy. If he wants to delve into more serious talks, then let him talk and you just listen and validate.

Quote:
We tell more knock knock jokes than talk about our relationship.


Good! Keep it that way for now. If he ever expresses interest in returning then the more serious convos can take place.

Quote:
AnotherStander, do you have children? If so, did W take them with her?


Yes, S10, D16 and D18. D18 is away at college. Before we S'd we sat down to talk about custody, I told W that I would honor whatever arrangement the kids wanted but I would like to try 50-50 custody for 2 months before letting them decide. She was surprised, she expected me to fight her over the kids and try to get full custody. I told her that I think she's a fantastic mother (true) and that I saw no reason to try and keep the kids from her. She was actually quite happy with the offer, so there was no fighting about it at all. We're still doing 50-50 on a week-by-week basis. The kids have both said they'd much rather have us all back under one roof, but as long we're S they're OK with 50-50.
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/30/13 10:50 PM
oh wow your post gave me instant hope! I was actually in the middle of ivf when my H reached his breaking point. We were arguing and my hormones must have been out of control with the meds. After his blowup, we made up and continued ivf half way: successful frozen embryos. Leading up to D, I have to admit I was always thinking about when Iíd able to put the embryos back in while my H was still so sad and confused. I shouldnít have rushed that we had successfully frozen them but I was cynical. I only focused on negatives: What if these donít work? Now I think about it I think my H was always open to the idea of adoption if we canít naturally get conceived. But me? When my Dr mentioned I might have to use egg donors (before surgery) I was beyond sad Iím not gonna lie. I didnít necessary think it was a bad thing for me to want to have biological babies if I could, but I think it was bad I didnít explore any other options. So to my H, how helpless he must have felt. Here I was always down about babies. But at that time I was only thinking about me. Why canít he be more supportive of my pain? How unfair of me it was. He was trying to find out why he wasnít happy and yet his wife had to drown him with emotions he couldnít possibly handle.

Sorry I hijacked it a bit but itís so nice to hear success stories from ladies in my age group. Itís so comforting, so thank you for that.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/31/13 12:21 AM
thanks for chiming in, Grizz. feels sort of good to know I am not alone...sigh...What is PMA?
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/31/13 12:25 AM
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander


Good! Keep it that way for now. If he ever expresses interest in returning then the more serious convos can take place.



He still lives with us. Has not left....still deciding whether he will or not. but I will take "returning" to mean return to our marriage...or committing to our marriage, so I get it.

You must live close to your W. to be able to do 50/50 custody. I work from home and H works full time, so I am the SAHM..I would want this to continue...kids with me, he visits. ugh hate the thought of it.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/31/13 12:33 AM
You have plenty of time. My friend had cancer treatments that left her infertile...she had a donor egg baby at age 42. That baby was 100% hers, she was worried, but it all disappeared the minute she met him. Her body grew him, he was hers. Get this--my other friend tried for 9 years to have a 2nd baby...many miscarriages--finally got pregnant at 48!!! Healthy little girl. There is definitely hope, and you have time. Check out fertilityfriend.com for inspirational stories. I was very lucky to have conceived my first son at 38 and my second at 41 with no intervention, but I am a researcher so I wanted to be prepared for the worst case scenario. I am 47 with an 8 year old and a 5 year old.

Sorry your infertility caused you so much pain...all I can say is the joy of children in your life far outweighs the "joy" of pregnancy. Easy for me to say, and I understand the biological desire to have a baby...but it's sort of like the wedding vs. the marriage. Ha. Better to focus more attention on the marriage than the wedding. Oh if I could only hop in a time machine and go backwards, how I would do things differently!! never mind--onward and upward!! where there is life, there is hope. great things are just around the corner, I know it.
Posted By: Accuray Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/31/13 01:08 AM
Originally Posted By: E2Dad
I honestly never would have given "pro marriage" or "pro-self" counselors a second thought if it weren't for this situation. I wonder how many people actually change counselors for another that is a better fit for their thoughts and feelings.


I went to 5 MC's myself before inviting W to come along, and then switched again after one session with that MC because I didn't feel she "got" where W was coming from (which would have just discouraged W from coming again).

The MC I ended up with said that 90% of the time MC is too late to help. He said the majority of the time, one spouse is coming to work, and the other is coming to help the other person find peace, convince the other person it's over, establish that there is something wrong with the other person, or establish that it's all the other person's fault. In those scenarios he said it almost worthless.

The other dynamic is described in "Love Must Be Tough" where the WAS typically holds their cards close the vest -- the LBS doesn't know what they are thinking or feeling or why, while the LBS typically pours all their thoughts and feelings out leaving the WAS with nothing to wonder about. MC can exacerbate this as it can cut the legs out from under "act as if".

I'm not a big MC fan, but when I went, I went alone before each session and strategized with the MC on where I wanted to go, what to focus on, and what to stay away from. I wanted no surprises -- if the MC wanted to go somewhere I wanted him to discuss it with me first.

That said, he *still* surprised me a couple times and said things that W latched onto as reasons for her not to work on the marriage and not to consider making any changes.

There is no scorecard to evaluate how good an MC is -- the majority of the time they don't know what happens to the couples they worked with, and they don't follow up to monitor outcomes. There is no statistical evidence to suggest that it helps at all, unlike Retrovaille which does monitor outcomes.

All that said, in *your* situation if you think it will help and/or make you feel better, then you should do it until you have a good reason not to. The minute you feel your counselor is not going where you want you should change.

I got mine to agree to read all the background in an e-mail for free and clarify questions before our first session so I didn't have to spend money to recount everything from the beginning.

Accuray
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/31/13 01:13 AM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
You have plenty of time. My friend had cancer treatments that left her infertile...she had a donor egg baby at age 42. That baby was 100% hers, she was worried, but it all disappeared the minute she met him. Her body grew him, he was hers.

Oh my god this story made me cry. Of course it was hers.. What was I worried about all this time?!?

Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
Sorry your infertility caused you so much pain...all I can say is the joy of children in your life far outweighs the "joy" of pregnancy. Easy for me to say, and I understand the biological desire to have a baby...but it's sort of like the wedding vs. the marriage. Ha. Better to focus more attention on the marriage than the wedding. Oh if I could only hop in a time machine and go backwards, how I would do things differently!! never mind--onward and upward!! where there is life, there is hope. great things are just around the corner, I know it.

Iím so glad I commented on your thread. I just wanted to share my insights since your H and mine seemed to share similar traits.. but I didnít know Iíd get such a valuable insights on infertility. You are so right about wedding vs marriage. We, girls tend to get caught with the wedding or pregnancy excitement and forget whatís really important. Iíve always wanted a happy family with my H and I thought we were on our way without realizing I had all my priorities completely messed up. How could we have a happy family if I couldnít even make my H happy. Thank you, TigWinkle. Youíve done something to my head today.. in a good way smile
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/31/13 01:47 AM
I'm wishing the best for you stilllookingup. focus on making yourself happy! never mind your H. That's his job to make himself happy. surround yourself with positive people. it REALLY helps become more positive yourself. And good luck to you! smile
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 01/31/13 02:02 AM
Accuray,
such good information. thanks.

I feel there is a lot of truth to what you are saying. It is hard for me to open up too much in counseling because then it would be letting on how upset I really am...that's okay by me...but is it 100% honest?

I think H began this thinking it was ALL my fault...then admitted most of everything was probably his fault but it didn't matter...he didn't WANT to be married to me, didn't WANT anything from me, could NOT forgive me. yet he wants counseling, he wants to improve, he wants to be honest and build trust with me. Probably more as a coparent than a husband, but that is a start. He is a very very conflicted person. He is suffering a lot from facing his problems.

I think he may be going to counseling to be able to say "See, I tried--and I don't feel any different"...yet this is not hardcore counseling. I feel like we need something tougher, more to the point. We could ramble on with this therapy for years. Most of our sessions turn into sessions on H's issues and problems...and I sit there and listen. Therapist said H has so many issues it's like triage. Must take care of him first. I am half way up the mountain and H has to "catch up" with me. It may take some time...

I LOVE the idea of the email catching s therapist up to speed. If that becomes necessary I will definitely do it.

Please tell me about Retrovaille. Would you recommend it? I read up a little on it but the Catholic thing would scare away H I think.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 02:19 AM
Well things have taken a turn for the worse. I should learn to trust my intuition. For the past two days he has been acting really weird. Still friendly but somehow more detached from the boys.

Tonight H confessed that he had a physical affair with someone. About 6 weeks ago. He refuses to tell me any of the details, but he said he can never be in an honest and trustworthy relationship with me. He showed no remorse. He left for a hotel and I am glad. Numb.

He told me that he went to see our therapist today at 3pm. I knew he seemed really weird when he got home. He told me I deserved better.

We had plans tomorrow with another family--they were coming over for dinner, and the boys were looking forward to it. Tonight H even prepared the pork loin right before he left. He isn't going to work tomorrow so he can go apartment hunting. We have our appointment with the therapist on Saturday and perhaps we will talk about how to tell the boys and when to tell them

I am going to talk to my friend who is coming tomorrow and still have them come. I don't want my husband here tomorrow. But I don't want the boys to be worried about him. I guess I could say he had to work late. And tell them on Saturday after the counseling.

I told him there was no hope for reconciliation and I feel that in my heart I do not want him any more. Yet even so I still want our family to be together. I am so confused. I feel sick...

If ANYone has any advice...ANY ideas. ANY words of wisdom...please. This all happened 20 minutes ago...

What on earth are we going to tell the boys?
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 02:29 AM
So sorry, it does hurt a lot but you will get through it. Cry, scream, yell, curse whatever you need to do. Then tomorrow is a new day.

Think through your options but don't try to make any decisions right now. Give it time to settle in.

Do you have a friend who can be with you for awhile tonight?
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 03:23 AM
Oh I am so sorry.. I agree with labug. We can't make clear decisions when we are so hurt and upset. I know no words are gonna ease your pain right now but we are here for you. Hopefully there's someone who can come comfort you tonight...
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 05:07 AM
Thank you both. I am numb but I am fine. My 8 year old came downstairs wondering where Daddy went and I felt I needed to tell him the truth. Of course nothing about the affair. just that daddy went to a hotel because he is very sad. My son was very very upset and said is Daddy ever coming back? Will I ever see him again? How could he do this to his brother who is only 5? (as if being 8 is so much better). My life is going to be sad from now on...He cried and I told him that I wanted to do everything I could to keep our family together, but Daddy made his decision. My heart broke, his heart broke, he cried himself to sleep. I texted my husband to come back and talk to his son, I didn't want to do it on my own, but he ignored me. Coward. So I did the best I could. Told him Daddy loved him and his brother very much, that we would see him tomorrow, that we would be sad for a while, but I promise we will be FINE. He asked if we could take a trip to Philadelphia. Funny kid. I said sure.

I talked to a friend tonight...and that is it. I will be fine. I am numb. I can think in abstract terms that this man (H) is despicable, he is a real jerk...but it doesn't hurt me. I actually feel sorry for him. oh dear God help me...

Oh by the way--I was telling him that he stands to lose it all--that he is selfish, and emotionally broken. And H got on his high horse and said "I am not the one pointing the finger at YOU and criticizing YOU"....I was speechless and told him--wow--you are just so incredibly honorable. I appreciate your healthy communication skills.

good grief. he found a way to criticize ME!
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 01:36 PM
It might be good if the 2 of you didn't see or talk to each other for a while.

It sounds like you're both raw, one wanting to hurt the other. No good will come of that. Just take things slowly.
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 01:40 PM
I went back to read your early posts and this:
Any conflict or problem we might have, he usually just expresses no preference, agrees with me or if he does oppose, backs down easily and with a smile. He basically does anything to avoid conflict or distress. H is the kind of guy who never gets mad, almost always seems in a pleasant mood, such a "nice guy".
describes my H perfectly. As I read on it seems that you marriage was similar to mine in many ways.

So I would definitely say, let things cool off before you try to talk.
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 01:59 PM
And a question, why did you tell your son last night instead of waiting for H to be there?
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 06:42 PM
We have to talk today to tell our 5-year-old. After that...no chance for a while...only business related things.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 06:46 PM
I told my son last night because he was in tears and asking repeatedly--where is daddy why did he leave? Is he coming back? I said--wait a second, I am going to call Daddy and talk to him. I called and texted H and he did not respond. I want my son to trust me so I told him the truth. daddy was sad, he wants to sleep in a hotel. When he asked if he was coming back. I said " you will see him tomorrow" and then he started crying and said--is he going to live here? and I said he doesn't want to...I cannot lie to my son. So I told him. H came today to tell him and said I'm sorry. I have been a bad husband. I am sad in the house and I will be sad if I leave. My son said--If you are going to be sad anyway, why not stay here where you are safe and we love you? My husband was silent, which was very upsetting to my son. I chimed in with words of support and encouragement..I painted H in a positive light that he certainly did not deserve.
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 07:59 PM
I know I'd be easy for me to say but is his PA a deal breaker for you? What would you if... if he wanted to work on R with you. (Obviously not now but when and if he comes to senses later)
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/01/13 08:31 PM
Yes I told H that I would be open to doing whatever it took to put our family back together ,. but I would not initiate the reconciliation of our marriage. He knows that I still love him, and that given time and certain circumstances (like his remorse and willingness to work on the relationship). I would be open to forgiveness and willing to do the work to restore.
Posted By: Grizz Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/02/13 11:32 AM
It absolutely breaks my heart to read your post about your kids. That [censored] beyond belief. That is the direction that I am heading also and it tears me up inside to have to tell them. My girls are 7 and 4. Why can't they see what they are doing to the kids? I agree that probably nothing good can come from any discussions when you are both so angry and hurt. I pray for you, your H and your kids. Good luck. frown
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/02/13 01:33 PM
Stay your course, detach, GAL, let him figure his stuff out.

Keep posting.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/03/13 02:36 AM
Thank you for the support. I am overwhelmed and sad and angry and worried. I am trying very hard to detach. I am putting up my boundaries and H called me 'controlling'. the kids are doing pretty well most of the time...it helps that H didn't spend much time with them since he was on the computer ignoring them so frequently. Other times they are very emotional. Telling our 5yrold S did not go well. H said--I don't know what to say. 8yrold S said--do you want me to tell him Daddy? And H said--no I will do it. I am leaving. S5 said--okay daddy see you later. And then H said--no I am not going to live here anymore. S5 turned to me choking back tears and said--I love you Mommy...and I realized he thought I was leaving too. I said I am staying, I am not leaving you and your brother are staying with me here. He was holding back tears so I hugged him and said let it out. H said--I wish I could record this--you are making this so much worse than it is, why does this have to be so DARK. like minimizing what the kids and I were feeling. He accused me of making things overly dramatic as he watched the 3 of us crying.

Went to the counselor today to talk about the kids (we had the appt scheduled) Therapist said that he was impressed with how I was handling things with kids and individually. was nice to hear some positive affirmation. Said that H had a lot to work on. And that he had to accept all of our emotions, the Sh*t storm that he caused, and stop insulting me.

It is so complicated because of course he wants to see the kids and the kids do not yet want to be on their own with him. they understandably feel betrayed. So I am with him too and I hate it. But it's for the kids. We had dinner tonight and tomorrow we are taking the boys to a birthday party. Then he won't see them until Weds. I need the break.

We are going forward with the divorce. I have a lawyer. So does he. I do not want a divorce. But I have to go forward. I don't feel much hope for reconciliation, he is absolutely sure that he wants the divorce, and it is in my best interests to go through with it now. It's over.

I am not sure even what to do now. I understand detach. let him figure it out. I have a very active life, independent from him...which now will be limited because I am going to be on my own with the kids.

How long does it take to feel normal again?
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/03/13 02:16 PM
I am all over the place. We went out to dinner with the kids. It's not fun for me at all. Doing things as a family. But My boys don't want to go alone with him. S8 says he loves Daddy but can't trust him or believe what he says. S5 doesn't want to go without me. So to avoid H accusing me of keeping the children from him, I go. It reminds me that I want to keep our family together. I want him to hit rock bottom fast and realize this is a huge mistake. But with the OW still in the picture (he says through email only), I know he feels encouraged and empowered. I cannot do anything to make him feel remorse...to make him change his mind. He seems angry at me. He got what he wanted, he left. He wants it all. The close family environment, our cozy house, the financial security WITHOUT me in the picture. It seems like if I were dead, he would have just what he wanted. But he would still be him, with all his problems...just like he is now.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/03/13 02:55 PM
Oh man. I really feel for you!!! Affairs are in my sitch too. My best advice is to not jump too fast to a decision. I'm 2 1/2 months from finding out about my H and his affairs and I'm willing to see if we can rebuild trust if he chooses to work at being faithful. Everything I've read on infidelity says to try not to make desisions in the first 3-6 months. The shock & pain of finding this out clouds any possibility of thinking clearly.

I'm so sorry! I know this pain all too well. I'm also a mostly SAHM, I'm 12 weeks pregnant too. Yippee! I'm just trying to settle into my new normal.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/03/13 10:15 PM
thank you Tallula. Today I went with my sons and H to a party. And I shared with H about some of the painful things they have been saying. They don't show their feelings to him--I think because they are afraid he will disappear completely. My S8 said I love Daddy but I don't believe in him anymore. This really hurt H. My S5 keeps bumping himself on purpose and collapsing into hysterics for an hour. any excuse to let out the pain that he can't understand

It is WAY too fast and I told H today that a week ago we hosted a birthday party for our 5 year old and now he's seen a divorce lawyer, moved out and told the boys it's over. Our heads are spinning. In the interest of saving money, my sister and I are letting him stay in our mother's empty house that is on the market (she died), and I asked to seriously consider continuing therapy, starting indivdual therapy, and making a decision with a clear head without contact with the OW. He said that I made some very good points, and that he would think about it. We have the therapy appt on Saturday so let's see what happens.

I do not want him in my house, I am dropping this boundary tonight because my son asked if Daddy could come to watch a movie. I choose to show good will to him rather than tear off his face because of the kids.

I suggested a long separation before proceeding with the divorce, and to build our relationship up to the point where we can truly said we did everything we could. I have SERIOUS doubts that he will step up to the plate. and if he does, well then I will do my best to work even harder than before.

but i remain so CONFUSED...

congratulations on your pregnancy Tallula. I feel for you...I hope it works out for you, too.
Posted By: littleGTO Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 04:28 AM
Hi, Tig,

I read your entire thread. I'm so sorry you have found yourself in the position you are in.

My H is in an EA. He moved out 3 months ago & left behind not only me but our 3 sons-ages 13, 11 & 9. WAS's are oblivious to the destruction they have caused by their decisions.

They are all about themselves at the expense of anyone and everyone.

You are doing right by your kids. Give them lots of love and reassurance. Continue to speak only kind words regarding your H. THey have already formed opinions about his actions--kids are amazingly perceptive.

His initial absence will be hard for you & your children, but you will get used to a "new normal" and start to settle in a couple of months.

Visitation will be hard. You have to decide what is best for your children and what you can live with. My H visits the house after school while I'm not home (mostly) and then on w/e's during the afternoons. Not easy for me having him in the house while I'm here but feel I only want children to be in their home (for now).

I agree not to rush any decisions. Your pain is too new, too raw to act on. Give yourself the gift of time. I guarentee your H is confused and will be thinking long and hard about his actions and second guessing what he wants, but he needs time too.

Breathe, take one day at a time, be strong, and take care of yourself so you can be strong for your kids.
Posted By: Lampstand Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 04:29 AM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
My S5 keeps bumping himself on purpose and collapsing into hysterics for an hour. any excuse to let out the pain that he can't understand


He learned this from his father.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 07:15 AM
thank you for reading my saga. thank you for your kind words. My only focus right now is my sons. I wonder if I am making an impact or not. visiting is going to be HARD. I truly don't trust him, and my children feel uncomfortable. Today I pushed my son's limits a little and suggested an outing to the library after the bday party and he refused. We went anyway and S8 wouldn't get out of the car. he started crying. Won't do that again. H understood and brought us home. So he has seen it for himself.

As if things couldn't get any WORSE. and I swear I am not making this up. After a nice movie night with the boys, where H thanked me for the opportunity and appeared very grateful...we said goodbye and I took the recycling out, only to see H enter the house across the street. I thought I was seeing things because he has already driven away. So I called him on his cell and he did not answer...3x...then he did answer and I could tell he was not in the car on the bluetooth--I said--where are you? he said he didn't like the tone of my voice--and said he refused to answer these questions. Asked if I wanted him to return. I said yes. I watched the house across the street (the neighbor is recently divorced and very suspicious--our sons are friends, but she has flirted with H in the past) Next thing H strides up to the house panting. I said where were you? where is your car? Because I saw none. He wouldn't answer so I said--I know where you were. WHY? and he said he needed to pick something up.

Not to bore you but yet ANOTHER LIE. He had parked his car a block away then walked back to go into her house. then jumped over three fences to get out of her backyard and over to my house again.

So then I did some more sleuthing....Called the hotel where he supposedly was staying Thurs-Fri-Sat---turns out he was there Fri-Sat but not Thurs. another LIE

I believe he has some kind of disorder. why on earth do I want to be with this jerk? sad thing is that I love him and he is the father of my children and we have a happy harmonious family life (as a couple we need MUCH help)

I can take any more sucker punches like this. I need a break. He will see the boys Weds.

Somehow I am able to not take this personally. Probably because I know there is something wrong with him, not me. I don't think I am his target...

Do WAS ever repent and show remorse? When? H looks pretty bad right now. never seen him look more worn out and old.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 07:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Lampstand
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
My S5 keeps bumping himself on purpose and collapsing into hysterics for an hour. any excuse to let out the pain that he can't understand


He learned this from his father.


Lampstand do you think a 5 year old could learn this from H? Showing no emotions?

that is scary. The 8 year old has a hard time, too,, esp now.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 03:19 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
Somehow I am able to not take this personally.


Are you sure about that? Because if that was the case, I don't think you would have called him 3 times and tried to out him in his lie. You've got to detach and get off his roller coaster.

Quote:
Do WAS ever repent and show remorse? When?


Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. The real question isn't if and when that will happen, the real question is can you forgive him and let go? Because you have to do that, not for him but for YOU. Re-read the chapter in DR on forgiveness, it's not about actually telling him you forgive him, it's more about an internal decision you make.

Quote:
H looks pretty bad right now. never seen him look more worn out and old.


This is often the case. The WAS is not happy inside, they are usually confused and in turmoil. Add to that the complications of trying to keep a bunch of lies juggling in the air like your H is doing and it can really wear a person down.
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 04:26 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
As if things couldn't get any WORSE. and I swear I am not making this up. After a nice movie night with the boys, where H thanked me for the opportunity and appeared very grateful...we said goodbye and I took the recycling out, only to see H enter the house across the street. I thought I was seeing things because he has already driven away. So I called him on his cell and he did not answer...3x...then he did answer and I could tell he was not in the car on the bluetooth--I said--where are you? he said he didn't like the tone of my voice--and said he refused to answer these questions. Asked if I wanted him to return. I said yes. I watched the house across the street (the neighbor is recently divorced and very suspicious--our sons are friends, but she has flirted with H in the past) Next thing H strides up to the house panting. I said where were you? where is your car? Because I saw none. He wouldn't answer so I said--I know where you were. WHY? and he said he needed to pick something up.


I have no words. He's out of control! I don't know what to say but as far as DB goes, shouldn't you ask him any questions about his actions? I know you are beyond mad and sad (I'd be too!) but if he's gonna lie about his actions anyway, why not ask and see how he reacts? I am so sorry TW
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: stilllookingup
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
As if things couldn't get any WORSE. and I swear I am not making this up. After a nice movie night with the boys, where H thanked me for the opportunity and appeared very grateful...we said goodbye and I took the recycling out, only to see H enter the house across the street. I thought I was seeing things because he has already driven away. So I called him on his cell and he did not answer...3x...then he did answer and I could tell he was not in the car on the bluetooth--I said--where are you? he said he didn't like the tone of my voice--and said he refused to answer these questions. Asked if I wanted him to return. I said yes. I watched the house across the street (the neighbor is recently divorced and very suspicious--our sons are friends, but she has flirted with H in the past) Next thing H strides up to the house panting. I said where were you? where is your car? Because I saw none. He wouldn't answer so I said--I know where you were. WHY? and he said he needed to pick something up.


I have no words. He's out of control! I don't know what to say but as far as DB goes, shouldn't you ask him any questions about his actions? I know you are beyond mad and sad (I'd be too!) but if he's gonna lie about his actions anyway, why not ask and see how he reacts? I am so sorry TW


Ok. Deep breath. This sounds like my H. So when he told me about his affair...he confessed to multiple PAs in our first 3 years. Horrified...yes. Shocked, yep. He cutoff OW 3 weeks ago and then I snooped on his phone and basically saw that he is laying the groundwork for another A. At least texting a woman who's number he didn't save. I haven't told him about that. He'll just flip it around on me. But I know. My eyes are open. For me, that was were my boundries became clear. See, my H wanted to move forward with our R, but still be FB friends with OW and secretive with his phone. No dice for me. I said calmly that I needed transparency and OW defriended on FB. He didn't want to do it. Flipped out. Calmed down and finally admitted that he does need to decide if he wants/can to be a faithful H before we can try to work on our M. It took me 2 1/2 months to get there, but I have no regrets. I didn't jump to any decision based on anger. I know in my heart that should this end in D, I have given it time, given him space, done everything in my power to give this M a chance.

So, cry, scream, get quiet. You have just had a serious jolt to the system. Affair, more lies, maybe a new one. Your H is really messed up right now. Figure out your boundries. YOU. When I set mine, I didn't ask if he was going to date other woman or anything. He offered up that this S isn't so he can run around with other woman, it's for him to be alone. But, I don't know if he is capable of that. I don't ask. It's running through my head, but heck...at least he isn't doing it infront of me anymore. This is my time for me.

I am giving you a HUGE cyber hug. God, is this painful. I'll punch yours, if you punch mine smile
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 05:28 PM
AnotherStander you always say such thought-provoking things. Thank you.

I do not take his actions personally in that I don't think he MEANS to harm me. I think he lies/cheats to fill a hole in himself that has NOTHING to do with me. He is not a vindictive person, but he is deeply conflicted. I feel pity for him, and a lot of compassion

YET on the other side, he has PROMISED (in therapy on Saturday and in a conversation on Sunday) that there will be no more lies, and there are no more bombs to drop. That very same day when he said he was going to my mom's, he lied. So that is his decision but I am disillustioned and hurt about the broken promise.

My main focus is how to help my kids. And his interference and poor parenting/communication skills doesn't help me at all. I need to shut out his lies from my world and focus on the kids and me.

I can forgive him. I think that is what I mean about I don't take this personally. I feel emotions of betrayal and exasperation but I am not flipping out and debilitated by emotions. I am tired of forgiving him for the same thing over and over again.

I pray my kids don't end up like him.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 05:33 PM
thank you smile

when I ask him about his lies, he answers the same way.
"that is not a question that I am prepared to answer". The conversation is very boring because I ask different questions and he responds exactly the same way to every question.

The therapist said that is putting up boundaries. He says this way he isn't lying, he's just not telling me the truth. Hmmmm. seems sort of similar to me.


What I don't understand is WHY LIE? He has filed for divorce, he has left the house--why on earth does he have to lie anymore? He's gone! what can I do to him anymore? He is FREE!
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/04/13 05:41 PM
Tallula. That's a deal on the punches. I can't help but feel sorry for them, all broken down and helpless. ugh. It is hard for me to not want to help--because helping my H will in turn help my sons' R with H. But I am only capable of being in charge of MY R with our Sons...and H is in charge of HIS R with our sons. I need to learn to let him make his mistakes even if it hurts our sons. that [censored].

I have set some boundaries.

1. he gave me the keys to the house
2. he doesn't show up without invitation or prior arrangement
3. he is a guest here
4. the boys will see him regularly, if they want me there, I will be there, if not that is okay too. It has been only a matter of days now. Still so raw. In time I am sure this will change.
5. I will no longer contact him unless it is of a business nature (mail, the boys schedule, etc.) and even then I will try to avoid that.
6. I will not share the struggles of the boys nor give him tips on how to handle their emotions. He will need to figure that out on his own.

silver lining. I have lost almost 10 pounds in the past week. I feel like most of it probably was me losing my mind.
Posted By: littleGTO Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/05/13 12:56 AM
TIg,
I think you've established some clear boundaries for yourself.

One suggestion about your boys & not sharing their struggles w your H. I think you should share these w him. NOt to throw their struggles in his face but b/c he should be aware and he might in turn share more w you regarding them when they are w him.

I agree he should figure out how to handle them on his own.

Less contact will help you detach, I believe.

Try not to lose any more weight--your boys need you to first take care of you to take care of them. (I learned this the hard way as I lost a quick 17 lbs & was already in my weight range when I started).

Take care!
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/05/13 01:45 AM
Ah I have a little weight to lose, so no worries. It is very unusual for me not to enjoy food. I can't eat and when I do it tastes horrible.

I have up until now been sharing their struggles. But he doesn't ask or seem concerned about them. It's only been 4 days. They haven't left me on their own with him yet. To be honest he would have very little to say about the boys. He communicates on a very basic level. The boys were "fine" kind of thing.

Today was a not horrible day, really. Sad and empty but I get a better life. We are in our home, I have the boys, and I have a clear head. Sad and struggling, but I have support and a vision for myself. He is a mess.

Today I was cheerful when he called to talk to the boys. I asked about a bill that had arrived. I wasn't angry and I think that surprised him (about last night's lies). I asked him if he had given any more thought to staying at my mom's since that is where I told the boys where he was. In reality he is across the street and I pray that the boys do not figure this out. That he is with another little boy (their friend) and not them.

I will take your advice and write to him a little about the boys today. As a gesture of good will. Even though all of the news is sad.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/05/13 03:20 AM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
Tallula. That's a deal on the punches. I can't help but feel sorry for them, all broken down and helpless. ugh. It is hard for me to not want to help--because helping my H will in turn help my sons' R with H. But I am only capable of being in charge of MY R with our Sons...and H is in charge of HIS R with our sons. I need to learn to let him make his mistakes even if it hurts our sons. that [censored].

I have set some boundaries.

1. he gave me the keys to the house
2. he doesn't show up without invitation or prior arrangement
3. he is a guest here
4. the boys will see him regularly, if they want me there, I will be there, if not that is okay too. It has been only a matter of days now. Still so raw. In time I am sure this will change.
5. I will no longer contact him unless it is of a business nature (mail, the boys schedule, etc.) and even then I will try to avoid that.
6. I will not share the struggles of the boys nor give him tips on how to handle their emotions. He will need to figure that out on his own.

silver lining. I have lost almost 10 pounds in the past week. I feel like most of it probably was me losing my mind.


It's pretty pitiful. Great boundaries! As much as it [censored] that my kids are so little, it is nice that they really don't get what is going on.

I agree with the others about sharing your kids struggles, it's what is going on. It's the truth.

You are doing great. Hang in there.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/05/13 09:49 AM
I had an extended chat online with H about the boys. I said he did not ask about them and I would be glad to share how they are doing if he was interested. I shared what the counselor had said, and a few insights, all pretty sad. He was silent (no response) for long periods in between so I said that I didn't think I could do this without reciprocation. He needed to participate in the conversation or I would feel uncomfortable continuing, so I said good night.

That is my new boundary. I made it clear that I was willing to share with him. I made it clear that he had to actively participate/ask questions. I will no longer come forward to "help" him with his conversation skills. He is so ineffective it is like I am enabling him by taking the lead all the time while he sits passively. I don't like that feeling. I will give him whatever information he asks for, but I will not be as forthcoming as I was tonight. I resent that I ran around all day seeing and contacting therapists and groups for my sons and he just wants to know if he should show up to the sessions or what he should do. I told him he should find his own counselor to help him with his conversation skills. Why on earth do I still have to do all of the work and he piggybacks along on it. He should take charge. I am cleaning up his mess.
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/05/13 02:03 PM
You're swinging a pretty heavy hammer and that's OK but it may not get you the response you need.

People who avoid conflict, avoid conflict, so you may need to find a different way of expressing your needs and the needs of your sons. You didn't say how you stated these things but it sounds like ultimatums, which are dead ends.

I have been very frustrated with these types of things and my H. Remember minus the affair, he's much like your H. Now when I really need something from him, I say it very clearly without blame or shame, just what I need.

Don't expect him to suddenly be someone he's not but clearly asking for what you need in as few words as possible without judgment may make your life easier.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/05/13 06:05 PM
I definitely am not making anything sound like an ultimatum at all. In fact this is the type of thing I would say

"H, I am struggling with trying to say this in a way that you understand that I am coming from a point of concern for the children, and not trying to influence your decision to serve my own needs. Please believe I am sincere when I am saying that this situation (fill in the blank) makes it difficult for the boys because of (fill in the blank). It might be easier if you find a better way to go about doing this and here are some examples of what might go wrong, which I hope to avoid. Are there any considerations you might want to talk about before you think about a decision? Okay, then I hope to hear from you later to hear your thoughts."

gentle, friendly, and his response is calm, he says "you make some very good points, I will certainly take them into consideration and get back to you this afternoon".

as for the chat last night, after a 10 minute pause after I wrote something about the kids with no response from him....my exact words were something along the lines of...I am finding it difficult to communicate with you over chat on the internet because of the delays in your responses. Maybe next time this should be on the telephone. Good Night!

I am trying VERY hard to be friendly, calm, and talk only about the children and necessary topics.

I REALLY want him to come home, despite it all. I don't think it's a good idea, and I have told him that I don't want him to come home only to leave again...but I think I have emphasized how much it would help the boys if he were home. I haven't told him that I want him home. I miss him a lot. I don't know whether to say this to him or not. I don't want him to feel bad, but I haven't said it to him yet. Maybe he thinks I want him home only for the kids. Not true. But it is my main focus now.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/05/13 09:44 PM
Well all the truth is out. The OW is our neighbor across the street, a "friend" of mine and her son and our sons are best friends. My H said they are in the "beginning stages of a relationship" which is why he has been staying there. I think it is incredibly inconsiderate to do this because the boys will see him across the street living with another little boy, not them.

Coincidentally (?) H's father did this too. He had an affair with the woman across the street and left H's mother for her, moving in across the street. History repeating itself?

For the record, she is not a very stable person. A hoarder, friendly, bubbly, but with very low self esteem. She has plenty of money. We have been friends for 5+ years. She recently divorced her alcoholic husband (within the last 6-8 weeks. About the same time of the affair with my H if what H is saying is true. I feel incredibly betrayed by her.

At the moment H is planning on giving me more than my legally fair share in the D. My attorney recommends that I accept that before he changes his mind.

I don't know what to say. At this point I have remained calm, no tears, no anger...told my sister...I hate all the drama and the surprise and shock that people express. Hate that. But I am in the middle of this horrific experience...

I don't think there is any hope. Here I am asking him to consider going to Retrouvaille and he is already on to the next woman.

What next? I know, get a life, detach, and keep moving forward.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/05/13 11:44 PM
OMG, I am so, so sorry!

Ugh, the woman across the street. How horrible for you. A friend. Big hugs! I have no idea what to say about the D.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/06/13 01:57 AM
I know. My friend. Across the street. Today S8 said--where is Daddy anyway? And no matter what my answer, it was a lie. I had to tell him probably at a friend's house. Very hard. They told me that at least I didn't leave. That would be worse. I now ask myself why on earth would I want this man...except for the fact that he is the father of my children, and I believe the person who should be my husband. What is wrong with me? This is such a difficult situation for us in our small close-knit community. Wow. what humiliation for all of us.

I know I have no control, but seriously ANYONE but HER. ANYONE ANYONE ANYONE but her. Please. At this point, that is my only wish. I don't think things could get any worse at this point...
Posted By: RockJC Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/06/13 02:00 AM
"My H is in an EA. He moved out 3 months ago & left behind not only me but our 3 sons-ages 13, 11 & 9. WAS's are oblivious to the destruction they have caused by their decisions."


SO TRUE!!!!
Posted By: RockJC Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/06/13 02:06 AM
Your neighbor has no class. What is wrong with people?
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/06/13 04:15 AM
thank you. yes, no class. such betrayal. and again--he is RIGHT across the street. talk about being too close for comfort. I hope the boys don't see him.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/07/13 03:35 AM
Oh this is so hard. A week ago today we were all together, hanging out, another busy day winding down. Little did we know that it was our last day together. Wow. My husband left abruptly last Thursday after confessing an affair. On Monday he said it was our friend and across-the-street neighbor. He has been staying there ever since Sunday night, at the request of the OW. He has another place to stay for free (my mom's empty home)but he chooses to stay there.

My S8 has been asking repeatedly where daddy is staying. He obviously does not know about the affair, but my psychologist friend said that it would serve no purpose of them knowing, and it would prove potentially harmful. The idea of introducing a new woman into their lives so soon could be devastating especially if they perceived this as an attempt to replace their mother. The boys should be treated for their trauma with sensitivity and great care.

I have decided to take the high road. I told H that I wanted to adjust some of my boundaries to allow him greater access to the boys during these early days. I said we would see how it goes, because they can be very reluctant to spend time with him, say goodnight--they are very upset...and hurt...understandably. S5 says it hurts to smile anymore and S8 is opening up more about his feelings of despair--and asking where Daddy is.

I told H that I didn't like being put in the position to lie to the boys. That it could be very hurtful to know that daddy moved into their friend's home wouldn't want them to wonder--why did Daddy leave to live with another little boy? Today we saw H and S8 asked 4 times where he was staying. He lied or ignored the question each time.

I had a word with him. He agreed with everything I said, and said that he would seriously consider my request to move. I am not happy with the very real possibility that the boys see him or his car. Our houses literally face each other.

I told him that I was establishing a positive coparenting relationship with him despite having been through a LOT recently--the affair, the lies, and my total lack of trust and respect in him as a person....and now he chooses the OW over the emotional health of his children. I have even less respect for him and the "loving father" he claims to be.

This is SO HARD. I know that I should detach and stop trying to control/protect him...but when the casualty are my SONS, I do hesitate. They are dealing with enough now, and despite everything, I want their relationship with their father not to suffer any further.

I am so upset.
Posted By: SM34 Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/07/13 03:58 AM
TigWinkle i am so sorry you find yourself in this position. As a father myself, I cannot fathom how a father can act in a hurtful way or in a way that is against his kids best interests.

However, I have been on this forum long enough to understand that your husband most likely doesn't really understand what he is doing to them. WAS mostly think the kids are "resilient" and will "learn to live with the new setup". Of course we know that is not the case. Kids always suffer when parents separate, especially when there are lies and deceit involved.

People on the forum have reported many times that when their spouse comes around from the selfish episode they are having, they themselves cannot believe what they did and the damage it has caused. I'm dealing with a wife who is a walk away and we have a 3 year old daughter. The wife doesn't see how this will affect daughter at all. Although when the W is gone, my daughter spends most of the time saying Mommy, Mommy, Mommy. When a car drives past our house, she points and says Mommy? It is so sad.

Hand in there though. You are in a good place for good advice. Many people around here have been through these situations before. If you want to try to reconcile your marriage, and you are willing to stick through the hard times, there is no better place for advise than right here.

Hang in there! Keep posting and the veterans will be here to offer their input.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/07/13 08:15 AM
thank you. I feel horrible for your 3-year-old. These feelings of abandonment can end up haunting a child for life. I only feel slightly better when my boys say--it could be worse--Daddy could be dead and then we would never see him--or at least it was Daddy who left not Mommy.

I hope my sons never grow up to be with him.

I think I am so used to running the show and overfunctioning in the relationship that he is used to doing very little of the emotional work/child raising. His self esteem is very low (though he would beg to differ). I know his relationship with the boys is HIS responsibility, but I so desperately want them to have a great relationship. Beginning to realize it is not my job to orchestrate their relationship and they will probably end up being disillusioned.

H does not listen to me and my "brainwashing psychobabble". He says he will listen to a trained professional's opinion. I hope I can find someone who will not mince words and tell him exactly what the repercussions for our boys will be if they discover he is lying, had an affair, and moved in across the street.

He is reall off-kilter--she gifted him a massage and insists he stays because of the creature comforts--internet mainly. He can't go without internet/computer games. It sickens me that he chooses life's little luxuries over his children's emotional and psychological well-being.
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/07/13 01:31 PM
I really can't imagine how hard this is for you. I'm sorry that you and especially your boys are going through this.

Just wanted to support you in that you can't control the R of your sons and H. You can support it but you can't control it because you don't know what that is meant to be. You know what you would like it to be but that may not be what your h wants or is capable of. Let him work it out. As you said, you've done most of the emotional work in your M (I have that same line written somewhere in my threads)now it is time to turn the responsibility for his life over to him.

And have no expectations about what the father-son R will be.

Keep the focus on you.
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/07/13 01:51 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
I definitely am not making anything sound like an ultimatum at all. In fact this is the type of thing I would say

"H, I am struggling with trying to say this in a way that you understand that I am coming from a point of concern for the children, and not trying to influence your decision to serve my own needs. Please believe I am sincere when I am saying that this situation (fill in the blank) makes it difficult for the boys because of (fill in the blank). It might be easier if you find a better way to go about doing this and here are some examples of what might go wrong, which I hope to avoid. Are there any considerations you might want to talk about before you think about a decision? Okay, then I hope to hear from you later to hear your thoughts."


I used to write emails like this too. Never really saying what I needed and expecting a result. I learned here and from my IC and some other resources to ask for what is needed.

H, when you are unable to visit the boys, they tell me they're sad; they want to have a R with you. Would you be willing to give set times when you can visit and if you can't make it call and let us know.

Have you read How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It? It really opened my eyes to dynamics that had been hurting my M for years. Since your H sounds very like mine, and you and I probably have similar characteristics, you might appreciate it.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/07/13 02:01 PM
I am so sorry for your current situation.

Quote:
I know his relationship with the boys is HIS responsibility, but I so desperately want them to have a great relationship. Beginning to realize it is not my job to orchestrate their relationship and they will probably end up being disillusioned.


You're right, it isn't your job to fix their relationship. Your job is to not damage it. In my case I was a facilitator to the R between my D's and their Dad. I didn't want to be in that role, but like you, I want them to have a great R.

Quote:
I hope I can find someone who will not mince words and tell him exactly what the repercussions for our boys will be if they discover he is lying, had an affair, and moved in across the street.


Why are you the one finding someone? If he is willing to get counseling, even if it's to deal with leaving, I would think he would be an active participant in finding.

There is a wide range of opinions about the damage or lack thereof that this causes kids. There are some good longitudinal studies that have been published. Again, what you find depends on what you're looking for.

Hang in there.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/08/13 02:45 AM
Labug, you are so right. I have been careful with my words so as to not offend him. I don't intend to do this for much longer. I do not want him getting mad because if he does he might change his mind about the divorce settlement. I am worried my boys and I will lose our home if decides to be less generous than he says he will be. Then again, I don't trust him...

I do have that book, got it a day before he left, so haven't read it yet...

thank you...it means a LOT.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/08/13 02:56 AM
Thank you Grace.

The reason why I am making the appointment (H offered) is that I wanted to choose someone that would be GOOD. He would just pick the first person he found on the internet and call it done. There is too much at stake for that kind of thing. My friend is a psychotherapist and has a network of professionals to pull from. She found me a great guy--expensive--we will see how that works out--who will hopefully get him the help he needs/we need. H said yes he would make appt for him and then another one for us to talk about coparenting.

I told the therapist that I had found the session thought-provoking...but that my H wouldn't last 5 minutes in this intensely emotional environment. T said well I would have a different approach for him. You are strong, so I talk to you this way. I wouldn't talk to him this way. I didn't know my strength showed. Was glad to have it recognized. He also said--where is your anger? GOOD question. I am mostly sad. Not angry. Numb still...but beginning to take it all in. Horrific. Boys said they feel "fine" like daddy is at work. He was so absent in their lives I guess the impact isn't as big as I thought it might be. Still crying and angry...but maybe they will be better than I thought.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/08/13 05:06 PM
It took me quite awhile to be angry and esp angry for me. It was easier for me to be angry for my D's.

I hope your boys have an easier time of it than anyone thinks they will.

Having said that, I can tell you that still waters run deep. I have one D that still does not really talk about it and there is alot more than meets the eye with her.

Another D really acted out. I've heard it said that where there is anger/rage in a family, there is always a kid that will act it out. Can't speak for others (obviously), but this D is that one in my family. I use the present tense, but I can also say that she is sooo much better now than she was. Counseling was literally a life saver.

Nice that the C sees your strength. A good reminder for you in moments that you may not feel so strong that it is there.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/09/13 12:42 AM
thank you Grace, your words mean a lot to me. It makes me sad that the kids seem so "fine". I know the tears come quickly and dramatically...for "un-related" things--a bump on the toe, a mistake on the homework, the injustice of having to go to the supermarket with me now that there is no other adult in the house. Luckily no rage in the home, though I suppose I am the one who would have more of a temper, I wouldn't call it rage.

Feeling sad today and I got really mad after thinking of what the therapist said--how I have been doing more than my share for the whole marriage--and I have received nothing from him in return. Nothing at all. Mad that he has no common decency to at least not flaunt the affair in my face by living across the street. The neighbors will all be out shoveling snow tomorrow (tons of it)...and he will hopefully stay inside and not show his face. It is too soon for my boys to know that. He says he plans on moving out soon, apartment hunting. Let's hope so.

I will be talking to counselor Monday morning--she called today but S5 was able to hear the conversation on bluetooth in the car so I couldn't talk. There is a "Rainbows" program in town for children suffering from loss or changed family...we'll do that too.

If it weren't for ths kids I would be curled up in fetal position under the covers. I am not even joking. I gave those boys life, but now they are giving me a reason to live, giving me a life. What would I do without them and their potty talk to cheer me up?
Posted By: littleGTO Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/09/13 02:25 AM
HI, Tig,
I agree that the kids are what keep me going every day too! I would love to stay in bed all day crying and avoiding life, but it's for them I get up every day and go through the routine of life and I search for the small moments of joy that they give me!

COmpletely understand what you are going through!
Posted By: RockJC Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/09/13 02:39 AM
I have a 13 yr old that is like a hand grenade, ready to go off at any time.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/09/13 05:07 PM
Quote:
If it weren't for ths kids I would be curled up in fetal position under the covers. I am not even joking. I gave those boys life, but now they are giving me a reason to live, giving me a life.


I remember feeling this way too.

I have my D's 24/7. While this was really lucky for me, I've never been convinced it was best for their relationship with their Dad. Still, you can't second guess this kind of thing.
They are amazing young women and I am so proud of them.

Quote:
What would I do without them and their potty talk to cheer me up?


LOL

I hope you have a food weekend.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/09/13 05:15 PM
Thank you GTO it helps knowing I am not the only one...I am being MORE than Fair. He is here right now helping S8 with a school project. (my idea) I had to laugh earlier when the OW was cleaning off her car and shoveling out her driveway across the street while H was doing my driveway and car at the same time--took him 2 hours.

I want to rip his face off right now but here he is in my house with the boys. I am being MORE than fair, more than classy, acting with dignity and grace. This is what I call self-control. I am amazing.

Today we are off to couples counseling to learn how to "coparent". What the heck. Then we're going to psychotherapy on Thursday for the same thing to decide which we like better. At least he is dedicated to the kids (he says).

Yes...no matter what, I end up with the good life. My kids bring more joy to me, it would be impossible without them.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/10/13 02:48 AM
?
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/10/13 01:02 PM
Yes.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 03:25 AM
Such a hard hard day today. The little one asked for a family meeting to talk about Daddy leaving. It ended up with lots of feelings shared, lots of tears, lots of anger, and fears...so overwhelming, so sad. We all cried.

I had a heartfelt conversation with H about him living across the street from us. Begged him to please consider that it would be too much for the boys to handle if they found out. They ask me several times a day (and ask him too )where are you staying daddy? Begged him to please consider moving to a hotel...but he said he is "in a relationship" and has decided that takes priority. The OW wants him to stay, though she acknowledges it must be hard for the boys. Her own S8 knows that H is his mommy's new BF---which must be confusing since H is his best friends' daddy. Messed up for that kid too.

I feel like I am allowing him to have his cake and eat it too. I said that H could see the boys every day if he wanted. But I don't think this is healthy for me or them. Very intense moods after he leaves. Today I had to say it was too emotional for him to come over. H understood. H talks to me about OW as if we are now platonic friends, and it is hard to hear. I am trying to get out have fun keep life moving (and it helps) but it is still new and raw and hard.

I need boundaries. I feel like H and I are not on the same page in putting the boys' best interests first by living across the street. It hurts me and is just insensitive. Cruel really. Enough is enough. Lying to the boys, H still sneaking around, it feels horrible.

I don't know what to do. Keep the visitation to a more "normal" schedule--once during the week and over the weekends...or keep an open door. I feel the open door policy lets him have everything he wants (see the boys)and flaunt it at me across the street. Having boundaries will help me heal, and give the boys time to just "be", and settle into a new routine.

I am strong and have been as upbeat and positive as possible until now. but now feel worn out run down and incapable of talking to him anymore about this. I have appealed to him several times...and I know that I have done a lot of enabling in the past and continue to be the bridge between him and the boys, to facilitate their relationship. he has no real idea what to do with them or how they feel, doesn't even really ask about them. I don't feel like I want to spill out all of their emotions and tell them how horrible tonight was--it was something they shared with ME, they trust me. if he wants to know how they feel, he should ask THEM. yet I know they won't tell him. But if he knows how sad they are, maybe something in him with change? I doubt it. SO SO SO confused. what should I do. I don't like being around him, but I can endure it for the boys. I really don't think it's great right now for them to see him every day, maybe confusing? and their emotions are all over the place afterwards. It's eary. And I just can NOT stand him living across the street. that is the worst part of all for me. and if the boys find out, well then we really do have problems.

help!
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 02:13 PM
You're in a very tough spot. It must be so hard.

I feel the open door policy lets him have everything he wants (see the boys)and flaunt it at me across the street. Having boundaries will help me heal, and give the boys time to just "be", and settle into a new routine

Your boys need to have their Dad in their life, no matter how you feel about him. Separate your R with H from their R with their D, don't use them to get back at H. He's not flaunting his new R, he's just not very bright right now. crazy

Maybe a schedule will work best for you, sit down with H and work it out.

No longer be in charge of his R with his sons. Move out of that role completely unless he asks specific questions. He's an adult male, he can figure it out. But remember if it's not the R you would like them to have, that's OK. Don't try to fix it. The more you try to control their R, the more you H might believe that it's all your fault that he can't have a R with his sons.

Stay out of it.

And I do wish you luck. ((( )))
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 04:05 PM
I agree with Labug. It is tricky with the kids. Mine are so so young, they don't get it at all. But, I know for me, a schedule is helping. It doesn't have to be permanant, but I needed some space to work through my own emotions and it is just too hard for me to be around H too much.

I have nothing to say about his living situation. It's hurtful and crazy, but it is what he has decided to do. He's a jerk, but you can't stop him. I would, however, ask him nicely to stop talking about OW with you. I had to do that when my H was with OW and would try to tell me how awful she felt. Well, not awful enought to stop sleeping with my H... I calmly said, "Look, I really can't hear about her anymore. It's very hurtful."

Good luck!
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 05:33 PM
Thank you for your input. I realize that in trying to protect my S from the knowledge that H is across the street with the OW, I am also protecting my H from the repercussions of his actions. I do not want to and will not keep the boys from their father ever. I think it will have to be on a more limited basis, with me very detached. I will not share what happened last night, except in general terms if he asks. I believe my next step is to say that if he continues to live across the street, it is time for him to tell the neighbors and the boys so that we can just get the pain of them knowing over with. Their 8 year old friend knows. Though H says this boy (OW son) is discreet and mature, let's face it, he is a child, and he will eventually tell the boys. I was hoping that the boys could build their R with their father back up and learn about the affair later...preferably 10 years down the road...when they might be able to understand it and process it better. But I feel like might as well be now. We can put it in simple terms, at least the truth will be out. We have two appts this week with different therapists and I am making another one who specializes in children. I will see what they think and then proceed from there.
Posted By: swoop Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: TigWinkle
Their 8 year old friend knows. Though H says this boy (OW son) is discreet and mature
I would like to give you H a 2x4 across the head! Some peoples ignorance is so disturbing!

Keep up YOUR good work, TW! You are doing so well in such a horrible situation. Stay focused.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 08:07 PM
Tig,

That your sons have been told nothing does not mean they truly know nothing. The OW's son is your S8 best friend? Have they seen each other at all since your H moved in? I suspect he may know something, but it isn't necessarily concrete.

IMO both of you should sit the boys down and explain what is happening. Their lack of infomation makes all that is going on in their heads that much bigger and scarier. They have nothing to hold onto because they have nothing to deal with. How do you cope with anxiety that has no definition? It is free floating and creates all kinds of monsters. This is what my D's have shared with me in the last 6 years.

Quote:
and continue to be the bridge between him and the boys, to facilitate their relationship. he has no real idea what to do with them or how they feel, doesn't even really ask about them.


I am still dealing with this and the truth is at some point he has to care enough to ask the boys and deal with them directly.

In my case (by all appearances)my H was not able to even really hear what I had to say regarding D's. He met with youngest D and her C for the 1st time last week...over 5 years after he moved out. I think he hears some of what I say now and I think he tries to connect.

I do think you have to set boundaries for yourself as far as how often you see him and a regular schedule for the boys will help them to know what to expect. It will help you to detach too.

Something to consider and I do not mean this in a finger pointing way, is how the boys will cope with him living with and raising someone else's son and not them. A good children's C can help you and the boy's with this. I can tell you they may be angry and jealous and wonder why they aren't good enough and don't mean enough for him to be there with them. He will not hear you if you point this outto him, I can almost guarantee that.

Your H's rationalization that OW's son is mature and discreet is interesting. The boy is 8, why is he being charged with caring more about his friends feelings that your H cares about his sons?? Really?

I understand that your sons trusted you enough to share their feelings. If the two of you talk with the boys they will be hurt, but it may lessen the confusion. Think of yourself and whether you would prefer to deal with facts or vagaries.

I will also tell you that relationships are forged in the fire of the bad days.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 08:56 PM
thank you thank you for your words of support and wisdom. I cling to them, believe me. I definitely don't want to tell the boys on my own. I don't want it to seem like an ultimatum to my H, but I must draw the line. He doesn't move out by Saturday then we tell them Sunday. (after consulting with therapists with the best way to do so). And if he DOES go...I will keep my mouth shut (I will no longer be lying if he's someplace else) and H must not go to OW house. H can see her all he wants at his place. S can not have contact with OW for a very long time (H agrees to this). There is no contact with OW S8...and I can control this as he does not go to their school anymore. They will eventually know, but perhaps delaying it will help. Perhaps not.

True about the anxiety from the lack of knowing where Daddy is. A LOT of anxiety. Both boys sleep with me most nights and S8 locks us in the room. He is very frightened. I reassure them that I can take care of them and they can go to their rooms safely, but right now I accept they need this. I will not reject them or push them away in their time of need.

The fact that H is expecting OW S to keep a secret is disgusting to me. That poor kid. He doesn't deserve this. I worry about him, too.

H is at the psychoanalyst as I type. I wonder if he will last 5 minutes there. Will be interesting, I went last week and it was intense. To his credit he continues to at least search for a way to make this better. He can't do it on his own, but he is willing to seek professional help. There is hope yet.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 09:04 PM
Thank you suckerpunch. You get the 2x4 and I'll tell you were to find him smile He is a lost soul, I feel horrible for him (I AM CRAZY!) but I do...I feel so bad for everything he has lost and will continue to lose. for what? A woman who claimed to be MY FRIEND! She is definitely the type who plotted and schemed to get him. He is at fault for SURE. But she preyed upon him when he was vulnerable and remember he has no friends. She is flirty with all men, but he is the only one who fell for this compassion. She very likely has a personality disorder which makes things all the more complicated.

It helps to have some control. some kind of "plan". I can't live like this pulling all the curtains closed and scurrying the boys in and out of the house. Why should WE be living like fugitives too?
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 10:02 PM
Quote:
I can't live like this pulling all the curtains closed and scurrying the boys in and out of the house. Why should WE be living like fugitives too?


You shouldn't have to. Don't you think this different behavior on your part is telling the boys something? Kids are so much smarter than we usually give them credit for.

Because you are altering your behavior (closed curtains and kids scurrying)I would seriously consider giving your H a timeline to sit and talk with the boys together and not an extended one. You should not have to live like a captive because of his behavior.

I know you are trying to protect your boys. What message do you think you are sending them though?

HUGS
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 10:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Grace_O
Quote:
I can't live like this pulling all the curtains closed and scurrying the boys in and out of the house. Why should WE be living like fugitives too?


You shouldn't have to. Don't you think this different behavior on your part is telling the boys something? Kids are so much smarter than we usually give them credit for.

Because you are altering your behavior (closed curtains and kids scurrying)I would seriously consider giving your H a timeline to sit and talk with the boys together and not an extended one. You should not have to live like a captive because of his behavior.

I know you are trying to protect your boys. What message do you think you are sending them though?

HUGS


I agree. I would discuss this with the C on how to tell them, but it will be SO much worse for them to hear it from someone else. This isn't an OW detached from the family...it's across the street. In a perfect world, the kids don't need to know, but this is going to blow up in both your faces. Your boys need to know they can trust you. Hopefully, he will move somewhere else. Wow. I'm willing to use the 2 x 4 too...

You are doing extremely well in a crazy sitch.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/11/13 11:25 PM
You guys are awesome.

So far the curtains closed have been explained with the snow and cold...and nightly "movie nights". They aren't been necessarily hurried up inside as it's cold...but if the weather becomes nicer than this will be an issue. H is on his way here now. He said that he and the OW will be looking for a new place to live together. Wow. that was fast. I talked to my neighbor's sister-in-law who is a divorce attorney. Said there are ways to protect the children from this behavior and from spending time with her. I need to see a lawyer tomorrow. Today he took me off his FB as "married to"...but made this visible to everyone except me. I can see on FB that I am still married to H. and H to me...but everyone else sees that I am not. Divorce lawyer said is demonstrating sociopathic behavior. He went to psychoanalyst today and said it was useless but will go again with me on Thurs. I will seek their advice on how to tell the children most appropriately.

I don't know how to proceed in terms of contacting his mother. I want to reach out and say that she will always be welcome and be able to see the boys--before she hears anything from him about how I am trying to poison the boys against him. But I also don't want her to know....
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 02:25 AM
wow just when things couldn't get any worse! He says that they are moving in together! she said she feels illegitimate and wants to tell his whole family. I said I am afraid she is illegitimate since 10 days ago he was living here and he is STILL MARRIED. she is the adulteress and unfortunately will have to wait to become an honest woman.

He does not want to tell the boys. But I think it's coming this weekend after consulting with the professionals.

I am seeing a lawyer tomorrow.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 02:34 AM
Didn't H's dad do this same thing? Sweet lord, I feel for you.

Just big hugs!
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 02:38 AM
Tig,

I really think his family should be dealt with by him. You can always contact her after she knows. She may contact you.

Remember that blood is thicker than water and depending on her, the relationship can goes sideways.

She will be able to see the boys through him.

I understand that he thinks you are poisoning the boys. As long as you are not speaking negatively about him, don't worry what others think.

I think part of the WAS's script is to blame their kids hurt and anger on the LBS. They can't seem to see that their own actions may have created these feelings as the kids independently see what is happening.

Over time your ability to take the high road will be seen.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 04:59 AM
YES! H's father left H's mother for the lady across the street and moved in with her, leaving the 3 of them (H, H's sister and H's mother) behind. Then H's mother dropped off the two kids (ages 4 and 2) on the doorstep across the street and gave up custody to them. That is where the story does NOT repeat itself.

H does not have good R with either his mother or father. I said to H tonight, sort of thinking out loud--I want your mom to know that she will always be welcome in this home with me and the boys--will you be telling her soon? and he told me that he would rather I TELL HER. I said I wasn't planning on telling her, but just wanted her to know.

I said I could not have contact with the OW and for the forseeable future neither would our sons. He agreed to this. So if his mom came to visit, the only way he would see the boys is with H alone...or me.

Thanks for the hugs. I can't believe this is going on...

today I said--H, you must feel euphoric, finally free--but please keep in mind that things are still very raw here. And H looked sad and said, I am not euphoric...

can't figure that out.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 05:02 AM
I would never EVER speak badly about H or prevent them from seeing one another EVER. We have the rest of the week set up--swimming lessons, hanging out, dinner here, board games, ice skating. We have a full and fun schedule for the boys. They are reluctant to connect with H, and that is to be expected. It will take some time.

I will never stoop to any level that would disgrace me. I think some pretty revengeful things though...but NEVER do anything> I would not give her the pleasure.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 05:07 AM
Oh and when I said moving in together (they are already living across the street), what I meant is she is putting her house on the market and they are moving to another town together. Good grief. I just cannot comprehend this. Why all the rush? It's been 10 days!!

OW has told her S8 to keep this a secret from her parents (his grandparents). Says he parents will freak out when they find out what is going on. (They like me) I feel bad for her little boy. This is not a secret that an 8-year-old should be keeping. I don't want my sons exposed to that sick type of parenting.

ANYONE else but her. I do hope this R does not last. Therapist said it will topple like a house of cards. I am praying every day that it does just that.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 05:14 AM
It's nice that he would rather you tell his Mom. I think he is avoiding responsibility for his actions.

My H did not have a good R with his Mom either and as far as I know he never did tell her (she has passed). I didn't either.

D's didn't have a close R with her (saw her maybe 5 times in their lives)and she did little to contact us. Either way, I would not have been the one to tell her.

The only member of his family I did tell was one of his brother's that was calling the house to get ahold of him. Then it was a simple "he doesn't live here anymore, you should contact him on his cell".

Your integrity will serve you well. I have always taught D's that integrity is the one thing in this would that can never be taken from you....you have to give it away.

Hang in there.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 12:39 PM
Grace you are right. Integrity can't be taken away from you--you have to give it away. I will be quoting your grandma for sure. I have not said a single mean word about the OW to H. Again, wouldn't give either one the pleasure.

I think there is something seriously wrong with me because I would still take him back under certain (probably impossible) conditions. Seems laughable given that he is ready to get a new place with her and I am off to the lawyer today. But I would definitely consider it. I do not want a divorce! But I do want to make sure the boys have a financially and emotionally secure life. So off I go to set that up.
Posted By: labug Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 12:54 PM
It's not laughable, accept that you still have love for him but continue to create your life.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/12/13 12:59 PM
I don't see anything there that's laughable or unusual.

Good luck today.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/13/13 02:19 AM
I can't figure out what is wrong with me--how could I love someone who thinks so little of me. Today as cheerful as you like H asks how my day was. Did anything exciting happen? Is he kidding? H asked for the kids--how were they handling things. I told the truth. That they were angry, sad, and in addition to running everything, taking care of my own emotions, I had to stop to attend to their emotional outbursts multiple times a day. It was exhausting. I said 15-20 outbursts per day and he said Wow. I understand. and I said is that all you have to say? Yes. that is all I can think of to say.

No remorse whatsoever.

Without going into too many details, the lawyer visit was very . I can protect the boys from the OW if I need to.

Have been in casual contact with MIL about the type of things we usually email. She just got back from a trip and was sharing what she has been up to. Not saying anything to her.

An evening of peace. Proud of myself for keeping things together when what I would very much like to do is slash someone's tires. Not sure whose, but it might involve many tires.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/13/13 02:55 AM
Well, then there is something wrong with many of us smile. You can't just make yourself stop living someone. What is good to know us what you will or won't put up with. I will try again, if H is willing to do certain things. I've said that from day one...I'll TRY to see if we can have a new M. H may never agree to those things, and I'm ok with that. It's sad. I still love him.

I think that is good to have H tell his family. Out of curiousity, how can you legally keep OW away from the kids? I assumed that was impossible to force.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/13/13 03:00 AM
Oh, and I had many revenge fantasy's. I'll never act on any, my integrity is most important. But they teally helped me with ny anger. My fav was to tag both of them on Facebook in a status right after I found out that said "H needs a place to live, and I know her frequents your <body part>" hahsha. Ah, that would have felt awesome for 5 minutes smile
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/13/13 02:22 PM
Tig,

Quote:
I can't figure out what is wrong with me--how could I love someone who thinks so little of me.


There is nothing wrong with you. They detach a whole lot quicker than we do. And the truth is, you don't know what he thinks.

Quote:
Today as cheerful as you like H asks how my day was. Did anything exciting happen? Is he kidding? H asked for the kids--how were they handling things.


Sigh. I know. He's trying to be nice etc. I think it's the whole "let's be friends" thing. Yeah, I know. In truth you may be able to be friends, but I seriously doubt right now.

They really don't get it. Dealing with the emotional outbursts while you are on the jagged edge yourself. It's hard. When my D went into crisis, I never got a call asking how I was. I do know that H cared, he was bound by his own limitations.

When he said "I understand" I think he was trying to be sympathetic. In my case I wanted empathy, not sympathy and I see the difference as sympathy is to feel for somone and empathy is to feel with someone.

I get the tire thing. I would get so upset I would go for a walk, hauling down the street talking to myself just bawling. Ah, the fantasies.

Hang in there.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/13/13 06:31 PM
Glad I am not the only one with revenge fantasies. All of them would point to me I bet and send them clinging to one another even tighter as they were being persecuted. That is the last thing I would want to do right now. I want her out of my life. He can go find someone else, ANYone else.

It is very very very hard to prevent the boys from seeing her, but because we have a pre-existing relationship (OW and me) for 5+ years, and because she has exhibited very unhealthy behaviors in the past, psychiatric evaluation might be able to be mandated by the court before she is allowed to be included on any visitation with the kids. This would take months, and in the meantime, she would have sort of a "restraining order" type thing. H might also have to complete this type of evaluation so I hope NOT to have to go this route. To protect my children of course I would do whatever it took. This type of thing wouldn't work if I was just the scorned woman seeking revenge.

This is why the tire-slashing has to stay in my imagination smile

Grace did your husband come around and become a better more connected father in the end?
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/13/13 06:34 PM
Tallula--is your H visiting the kids and connecting with them? They are so little. How are they managing?
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/13/13 06:40 PM
Yes. He takes them on the weekends and this past monday he watched them while I was at my IC. He said anytime I need to get out, he wants me to call him first and not the sitter.

Honestly, he is a great dad. He hasn't been too "hands on" with stuff like bathing and such, but now he has to be. He said that he thinks this will help him step up more a parent. It will also give me the opportunity to let go.

The kids are doing well. They are too young to get really get it. S3 has been acting up a bit, so we'll see when they have spent awhile going over there. D2 has been super clingy and when he is over at the house and I'm there too, she will only let me do things for her.

I am lucky that he has ended it with the OW, and wouldn't bring the kids around someone else for a long time if we do D. I mean, who knows what will actually go down should we D. I really wouldn't want that OW to be in my kids life. Her life is a MESS! I don't want my kids around that type of dysfunction. But, you can only control yourself.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/13/13 06:46 PM
Quote:
Grace did your husband come around and become a better more connected father in the end?


I know he's trying. The R between D's and their Dad in their words is "superficial".

Youngest D's C had me come in in Dec and said that she doesn't think he really knows how to connect with girls at their ages now (20 & 17). She thought that if I was able to help facilitate their R in some way it would help them. <shrug> We'll see.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/14/13 03:16 AM
That is interesting Grace. Are the kids' counselors allowed to share things with the parents? I don't know about confidentiality and children. I am not sure about what I would do--I struggle with facilitating their relationship (my boys and H). On the one hand, it would benefit the boys--on the other hand--I tend to enable H to get away with doing not a whole lot.

Today H came over presumably to pick up S5 and take to swimming. H didn't want to push it when S5 started to protest and so asked me what to do--I shrugged--and S5 got to miss swimming. So H hung out and played board games with the boys. I stayed out of it. The boys had fun, which made me happy. I fear their relationship will remain "superficial" too, without my input. But he's on his own now.

Tallula I guess it is a small blessing that your kids are so young. You don't necessarily have to accept dysfunction around the kids as I said, it's not fun, but the courts will protect the best interest of the children if its a serious case. I hope you get back together again. Things can turn around, you never know.

I still hope H comes to his senses. I doubt it...but I would like it.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/14/13 02:09 PM
Quote:
Are the kids' counselors allowed to share things with the parents?


If they have the kids permission. My D in counceling is almost 18 and she's been going for a few years. I get invited in for updates every now and then. The deal breakers are if they threaten to hurt themselves of someone else.

Of course the kids can share if they choose to and my D's C encourages her to tell me things that are important. After we found a good match for D17 it's been a life saver. I should probably add though that my D was in crisis (cutting, suicidal).
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/14/13 05:37 PM
I am so glad your D is doing better, Grace. I see a child counselor tomorrow and another next Weds. I think it will get worse in the next few weeks and then possibly start getting better. I am so done with feeling so bad.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/14/13 07:14 PM
It can vascillate back and forth for quite awhile.

You sound like you're a pretty stong woman and while it does take time...it does get better regardless of the outcome.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/15/13 01:00 AM
how long is quite a while. I hope a year from now I will be in a brand new life with a brand new state of mind, no drama, just peace and quiet and love from my boys and family and friends. Is that too much to hope for?

it can't get much worse, that is for sure...

Therapy was interesting today. H has a lot to think about.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/15/13 02:18 AM
How long varies from person to person. If you decide it will be a year, then you have to power to make that happen.


How was therapy for you? Did you get nuggets to think about too?
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/15/13 08:40 PM
I didn't get anything new out of the therapy it was mostly directed towards H and reaffirmed that my instincts were correct all along. I learned that he is in denial that his abandonment as a child was traumatic, and that made me feel so sad...that he really never processed that.

I saw the child psychologist today and love her. Have appt. with the boys next week. So looking forward to that. The boys will be supported and she will give H tips on being a better parent. This is what he needs. Things are not how I want them, but certainly taking a step in the right direction. H also said he would be moving out from OW house tonight.

This is huge.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/15/13 10:00 PM
Awesome!! I'm so glad he is moving out of her house.

It is sad that childhoods can so royally screw people up! That's the deal with my H. He never had a chance. As screwed up as what he has done is, it does make me sad that if he de idea he doesn't think he can be faithful, that he will live this lonely life, hurting himself and others forever. He even words it like that "that he is doomed to be miserable"

You seem so strong!!! You rock!
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/16/13 01:39 AM
Tallula is your H in therapy? sometimes that can really help get some perspective on things.

I put some conditions on H moving out of OW house and he was not happy. I said I wouldn't go along with him pretending to move out but visiting there daily. The reason being that the therapists/child psych we talked to said it would be very harmful for them to know that he chose another family (in their eyes). And it would be preferable for them to find out from us not by accident. Also that it would be better for the affair not to be known right now, but to delay that as long as possible. We have a very unique situation as our houses face one another and we can see into their windows.

So he agreed but not happily for the sake of the children. It's a step in the right direction at the very least.

Thanks for thinking I'm strong. I certainly feel strong but I know all of us are strong when children are involved so I don't feel like I have a choice.
Posted By: Tallula Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/16/13 03:13 AM
Yes H is in therapy.

We DO have a choice, though. I have been thinking the way you do. I always answer "well, what can you do. Anyone would do this?" nope! This stuff can break you! I've seen it happen. Be proud of you! I am.
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/16/13 01:14 PM
Thanks Tallula. I get what you're saying, and I am amazed at myself. Try sitting in the same room with your cheating H watching a movie because you want the kids to be with him, but they dont' want to be alone with him yet (or maybe just want me near so I don't "disappear"--who knows). Popping popcorn and baking cookies. This is because he has no place to entertain them himself. So I welcome him into our home. I am a flipping saint!

But I still don't feel like I have any choice. I feel that strongly. My morals or ethics or whatever wouldn't let me stoop that low to in any way harm my boys directly or indirectly. My fantasy life and scheming all kinds of delicious revenge is VERY active. But I know that I would never act on it. Wouldn't give them the pleasure of being persecuted.

Living well is the best revenge, and that is the way I intend to live. I still wish I could fast forward to a year from now. The stress of this life is wearing me down. When the boys play their wii--probably too much---I lay on the sofa wrapped up in a blanket and watch dumb tv. Then I feel recharged. I am blessed with many many friends and they lift me up and support me. I have a team of people ready to do ANYTHING in the revenge department. Again, will NOT take them up on their offers, but lovely to know that people would do anything for me. H can't say the same.

and that makes me strangely sad. I am such a softie, I can't take myself.
Posted By: Grace_O Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/16/13 04:34 PM
Quote:
Try sitting in the same room with your cheating H watching a movie because you want the kids to be with him, but they dont' want to be alone with him yet (or maybe just want me near so I don't "disappear"--who knows). Popping popcorn and baking cookies. This is because he has no place to entertain them himself. So I welcome him into our home. I am a flipping saint!


Tig,

This is a hard row to hoe. I did this for years. My H didn't cheat, but circumstances were such that I did this to facilitate his visiting D's. Was it right? I will never know. I do know it was hard on me.

I don't know that you are a softie. I think you see a bigger picture.

HUGS
Posted By: tiggertiger Re: Confused beyond belief - 02/17/13 12:46 AM
It is really really hard. H changed his mind and said he will continue to visit across the street though in theory be staying at my mom's empty house....for appearances sake perhaps...He said he is free to see the boys tomorrow except tomorrow night. I said we are free tomorrow night (we planned a day trip). So he said well I guess I won't see the boys then. Priorities. in subtle ways, H choses OW over his boys. I have a hard time with this. H has a new life that he chose. My new life was dumped on me, and it's overwhelming. H says he is an adult with the right to go out, socialize with friends (remember he has none--so these must be OW friends) and be with OW. I am an adult too yet I have no freedom to do any of this since I am left home picking up the pieces of my kids' broken hearts.

Grace you're a saint too. I have a very hard time with H seeking so much advice from me with regards to the boys. He should decide on his own what to do, not look to me for every detail.
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