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Posted By: swoop In total despair - 11/27/12 07:55 PM
My wife of 9 years is clearly a WAW. Recently she expressed that she was leaving the relationship because the last 6years had been so awful that she couldn't go on any further. We were on vacation together 4 months ago. When she broke the news, I acted in normal fashion by begging,pleading and trying to talk her out of it. Originally she agreed to marriage counseling, but over the last few weeks we have progressed from there to separation, then her deciding only to pursue individual counseling and now her list includes seeking legal separation and rental of an apartment. Our life is becoming completely unwound! We have a 6 year old daughter that means the world to us both, but she is not enough to make my wife consider working on our issues. She just needs to run. There is no physical abuse, no drugs and no infidelity in our relationship. Our friends and family were blown away with the news. To me, I don't see why we couldn't easily fix our problems. After her telling me that she wanted to leave, I have been making things worse with my emotional responses to her actions. I will be expressing my love and begging for her forgiveness one moment, then threatening her with divorce and financial destruction the next. I haven't been able to control that, and its making the situation soooo much worse. I know I am losing her.

I went through my first phone consultation yesterday. It was very insightful. I wish I would have known to make real steps towards healing our marriage months ago. At this point, I don't even know what to do. I am en emotional blob. I can barely breath or have a single, logical train of thought.

Suckerpunch
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: In total despair - 11/28/12 01:41 AM
First off, you just listed several things that you need to stop doing... the stuff that is making is so much worse. Okay? Okay.

Have you read Divorce Remedy? If not, do so ASAP. Begin by reading the chapter on the Last Resort Technique (LRT).

How old are you and your W?

What are your W's complaints about you and/or the M in general?

Begin this by taking a deep breath, and by teaching yourself to react to your W, whatever she says or does, in a cool, collected, manner. Fake it until you make it. You cannot control her, her thoughts, or her actions. Learn that right now. Back off and give her space and don't expect that this is going to turn overnight. This can take months. Patience is the virtue that you need right now. And for god's sakes, don't bring up the D word ever again. Let her leave, let her yell, let her insult you, change the history of the M, let her complain about all of the things that she hates about you and your M, let her tell you that she should never have married you, that she has always been miserable in the M... but do not react in an emotional way (anger, sad)... do not tell her that you will divorce her, or that you are agreeable to a divorce... just don't bring it up. If she does, tell her that you will cooperate, but will not help destroy your family. Put off the divorce as long as humanly possible.

Time + Patience

After you answer the question about what your W's complaints about you and the M are, me or others will talk to you about 180's.

But the first 180 that you need to think about is being attractive at all times (clothes, hair, smell, etc.). Go out and treat yourself to some new clothes and a new hairstyle.

GAL - Get a life. Part of giving your W space is keeping yourself busy. Keeping yourself busy also gets your mind off of the situation. Getting your mind off of the situation helps you have a positive mental attitude. A positive mental attitude is attractive... depressed and sad is NOT.

Sorry for the stream of conscious post... A lot to say and advise, and little time.

You cannot possibly learn and/or master this all in one day. So begin by cutting out the destructive behavior and by learning about the rest. You learn by reading the threads of others who have been through this before.

Good luck. Hang in there. I KNOW exactly how hard this is. KNow that it will be okay... regardless.

Denver
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 11/28/12 03:47 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Originally she agreed to marriage counseling, but over the last few weeks we have progressed from there to separation, then her deciding only to pursue individual counseling and now her list includes seeking legal separation and rental of an apartment.


Unfortunately MC rarely has any impact on a WAS. They are mainly there so they can check it off their list of "things they tried to save the M" (even though they really don't want to save it) and also so they can have someone else validate their actions. Inevitably after the WAS sits like a bump on a log through several sessions the MC will mention "maybe separation is the best thing for you" and suddenly the WAS will light up and embrace the MC's "idea" with open arms.

Quote:
There is no physical abuse, no drugs and no infidelity in our relationship. Our friends and family were blown away with the news. To me, I don't see why we couldn't easily fix our problems.


You are where most of us were at the beginning. "There's nothing wrong with me, I'm a great H who does everything right, there's some kind of affliction with my W and she needs to get it fixed." Stop those thoughts right now. Do some serious soul-searching. There are reasons your W is a WAW, you need to figure out what those reasons are and do 180's on those things. DB'ing is all about changing the one and only thing you have control over- YOU. Make yourself into a spouse only a fool would leave. And have patience, you've got to show your W consistent changes over a long period of time (months) before she'll start to believe you really have changed.

Quote:
I will be expressing my love and begging for her forgiveness one moment, then threatening her with divorce and financial destruction the next.


Stop both ASAP. Read Sandi's 180 tips (sticky at the top of the forum) and LIVE those tips.
Posted By: Spartan Re: In total despair - 11/28/12 07:57 PM
Suckerpunch - Sorry you're here and we all understand the emotions you're going through now. Denver and AS know their stuff so read and understand what they said. Best thing now is patience and read DR tonight. Make 3 pots of coffee if you have to and do it.

Your wife needs space and nothing you say will make her change her mind, it actually works opposite and everything you say or write just makes things worse. Trust me on this one. Like a lot of our S's it sounds like she is rewriting history so don't believe anything she says and like Denver said just remain calm. This was hard for me initially and I actually fell into trap by first trying to defend our past and then I actually starting believing everything was terrible. Try to stay positive and keep hope alive. Also read posts on these forums as much as you can and if you need to vent do it here, not towards you W.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

You are where most of us were at the beginning. "There's nothing wrong with me, I'm a great H who does everything right, there's some kind of affliction with my W and she needs to get it fixed." Stop those thoughts right now. Do some serious soul-searching. There are reasons your W is a WAW, you need to figure out what those reasons are and do 180's on those things. DB'ing is all about changing the one and only thing you have control over- YOU. Make yourself into a spouse only a fool would leave. And have patience, you've got to show your W consistent changes over a long period of time (months) before she'll start to believe you really have changed.

No truer words have been spoken. You have issues, we all do or we wouldn't be here. Your W is done dealing with your issues. You need to change yourself if you want any chance at reconciling. You also have to accept you won't change your wife so no use in trying, she might change only after you prove you've changed. One of the hardest days of my life was when I realized who I had turned into and I was surprised it took her that long to leave. Get away from distractions and think about things your W has said during arguments about what you do wrong or how you've upset her. Start their with your 180's.

Be patient, give her space, and work on yourself now.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 12:46 AM
Well, here I go. I am 42 years old, my wife is 34.

Her biggest complaint in our marriage is my arguing. I am hypercritical by nature and usually feel that I have to argue and win every conversation. I know this is a problem I have, and I am trying to work on it. My wife also complains that I do no validate her, say she's pretty often enough or lift up her spirits, which is true to a point. On top of that, my wife does not want to change her ways of partying and socializing. I guess in reality there is nothing wrong with that. She has been extremely loyal to me throughout our relationship and she is a fantastic mother. I just worry that she can be put into "single type" situation that would not be good for her. I also feel that she party's a little too often. Perhaps, most of the problem is just my own insecurity. I think most people would consider us the sarcastic bickering couple. We nit pick each other constantly. Really, I guess our biggest problem is just engaging each other and communicating our needs and feelings. We tend to walk on each others feelings instead of lifting them up.

So, here is a scenario. Lets say my wife would like to go to a concert with her girlfriends (some married some not), I would typically give her a negative attitude going into that and ramp up my attitude as the day approached. I feel she goes off too often for a wife and a mother. Before she would leave, we would be practically ignoring each other and we would maybe give a half effort waive as she walked out the door. Upon her return, I would give her the silent treatment, and she should would respond with the same. We eventually get over that, and the next issue is on the table for us to bicker over, but we never get to that happy point where we should be.

On my end, sex is literally off the table. The last time was 6 months ago. The decrease in our sex life started shortly after my daughter turned 1. My wife always seemed not into it. My daughter started sleeping in our bed about that time. The sex life diminished more and more over time until my wife and my daughter were sleeping in another room.....that's pretty much my life for the last 5 years.

My wife never belittles me or yells. She has simply stated that she thinks we have lost our connection and we are now incompatible. What she hopes for during this separation is to find herself. She has told me that she doesn't know if we will be together at the end, or if we will never be together again. She just claims not to know. She also says she doesn't love me right now, but will always care deeply for me.....From reading on these forums, that part sounds like bullsh1t.

I just don't know how to handle it. I am not sure she would repsond well to the 180. My wife is not like most women, (Boy I bet that's never been said here, right?). She is extremely sensitive. She is very down to earth and frugal, even though we have a fairly successful business and money to do most of the things we wish. She has a very kind heart, but she holds anything negative to heart for a very long time. She still brings up an email I wrote her during a fight in 2007.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 12:58 AM
I forgot to say Thank you for the words of encouragement. I feel fairly alone in this whole process.
Posted By: LIO Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 01:54 AM
I would +1 to everyone's posts above.

You argue (have to be right) and are nitpicky. Sarcastic.
None of these are attractive, correct?
My H and I did that. Not a good marriage that makes!

What is the opposite then?

My S slept with us for a very long time. He is 5 and I am actively encouraging him to sleep alone in his bed every night.... still. Is there a bedtime routine you and wife can do together that puts down D in her own bed?
Posted By: KLB Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 02:22 AM
Your situation is frightening like my own - right down the 8 years between our spouses.

I have suffered from being critical of everything in my life - my wife, brother, clients, kids - Everything!

A friend told me that when I criticize my wife (or anyone) I are making her wrong. And why would I want to be married to someone who is always wrong?

He told me, "Stop being critical and start being curious."
Listen and absorb, try to understand what is actually happening.

I know as the boss in my business, I feel scared if I don't know the right answer. That makes me defensive. So it is much easier to be critical and cutting than open and accepting. Sadly, this behaviour didn't stay at work and I acted this way to my wife.

Just realizing what I was doing and approaching the world with a curious eye has made a tremendous difference in my life. Hasn't brought my wife and I back together, yet. But it has only been 3 months.

Good luck. I'm rooting for you!
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 03:28 AM
LIO,
you're absolutely right! I need to keep that in mind and be more consistent with "agreeing" and being "understanding". I realize now that it is far more important to be happy than it is to be right.
In regards to our child, unfortunately we no longer live under the same roof so bedtime routines are not an option.

KLB, you and I should sit down and have a talk. It sounds like we have a lot in common. I just need to catch up and be more curious.

I am rooting for everyone too!!!! Which begs the question; How often does all of this lead to long term reconciling? Are most of us just fighting a losing battle?
Posted By: Spartan Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 01:31 PM
Man we sound very alike (both our old behaviors and our sitch).

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I am hypercritical by nature and usually feel that I have to argue and win every conversation. I know this is a problem I have, and I am trying to work on it.

Sounds identical to me and it's good you recognize it and want to change. As I found out and now you, "winning every conversation" causes you to lose the war and you end up here. One of my biggest 180's that seems to be having positive impact on R is I just listen and try to understand what she's saying. I honestly still only understand her side maybe 50% of the time (women are crazy smile ) but I don't let on and I try to be as sympathetic as possible. She still isn't trusting the change yet but she is talking more which is a baby step. Remember choose to be happy over being right, only one has staying power.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
My wife also complains that I do no validate her, say she's pretty often enough or lift up her spirits, which is true to a point.

There is no 'to a point', if she said it it's 100% true in her mind. Don't go over the top but try to start saying nice things about her when opportunity presents. Figure out ways to build her up.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Perhaps, most of the problem is just my own insecurity.

Same as my sitch again. Insecurity/ lack of trust is a marriage destroyer. Trust is a choice and you just have to do it. Sorry I don't have better advice then that, still working on that one.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
We nit pick each other constantly. Really, I guess our biggest problem is just engaging each other and communicating our needs and feelings. We tend to walk on each others feelings instead of lifting them up.

We did same thing and last several weeks I've just stopped it. If you feel like you might be headed that way during talk shift gears or leave room.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

So, here is a scenario. Lets say my wife would like to go to a concert with her girlfriends (some married some not), I would typically give her a negative attitude going into that and ramp up my attitude as the day approached. I feel she goes off too often for a wife and a mother. Before she would leave, we would be practically ignoring each other and we would maybe give a half effort waive as she walked out the door. Upon her return, I would give her the silent treatment, and she should would respond with the same. We eventually get over that, and the next issue is on the table for us to bicker over, but we never get to that happy point where we should be.

Have you been spying on me? I can 100% relate to this scenario because we used to live it to some degree or other for years (both ways). This is another easy 180 to try. Don't ask questions and act 'as if' you don't care she's going out or what she's doing. It may still bother you but don't let her know, that's your own issue and doesn't need to come out because it doesn't do any good. In my sitch all I say is 'have fun' and if I'm up when she gets home all I say is 'did you have a good time'. Nothing more. It's crazy but over last month it really has stopped bothering me and she's even coming home earlier and texting me while out.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
She has simply stated that she thinks we have lost our connection and we are now incompatible. What she hopes for during this separation is to find herself. She has told me that she doesn't know if we will be together at the end, or if we will never be together again. She just claims not to know. She also says she doesn't love me right now, but will always care deeply for me.....From reading on these forums, that part sounds like bullsh1t.

I just don't know how to handle it. I am not sure she would repsond well to the 180. My wife is not like most women, (Boy I bet that's never been said here, right?). She is extremely sensitive. She is very down to earth and frugal, even though we have a fairly successful business and money to do most of the things we wish. She has a very kind heart, but she holds anything negative to heart for a very long time. She still brings up an email I wrote her during a fight in 2007.

You need to give her space and let her figure out what she wants. Work on you and your 180's. Remember they are for you, not her. Arguing, hurting feelings, being insecure are things you need to improve on for yourself and future R's, with or without you W. Your W is more similar to others here then you think. She may or may not respond but you know what you've been doing in the past isn't working and she's given you that feedback. Time to try something new. You will be a better person if you make those changes.
Posted By: Spartan Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 01:36 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
but she holds anything negative to heart for a very long time. She still brings up an email I wrote her during a fight in 2007.

Talk about bringing up old things, during one of our earlier arguments after she dropped the bomb she brought up something I did in college (in 1993). I was in shock and told her I had no idea what she was talking about. I couldn't believe she held something that long. I then went a little too far and apologized for crapping in my diaper when I was a baby and said I hoped she wouldn't use that against me in a future argument... I've since learned to just deal with these type of things. My response would be different now thanks to these forums.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 01:41 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Her biggest complaint in our marriage is my arguing. I am hypercritical by nature and usually feel that I have to argue and win every conversation. I know this is a problem I have, and I am trying to work on it.


I was also the type that had to win every argument. I also could never bring myself to say I was sorry. There's a saying around here that is burned into my mind now- do you want to be right or do you want to be happily married? We can't be both. Trying to be "right" all the time just drives our spouses away.

Quote:
My wife also complains that I do no validate her, say she's pretty often enough or lift up her spirits, which is true to a point.


Don't think of it as true "to a point", because to her it is a huge issue or she wouldn't have brought it up to you. Also don't think of it as her "complaining". She is trying to tell you something. Are you hearing it? What are you doing about it? Read the 5 Love Languages, it teaches a lot about validation.

Quote:
She has been extremely loyal to me throughout our relationship and she is a fantastic mother.


Quote:
I feel she goes off too often for a wife and a mother.


Read the two statements above. Ask yourself which is true. If she is "extremely loyal" to you and a "fantastic mother", then does she not deserve to go to a concert with friends and enjoy herself? And should you not support her in that rather than try to bring her down and shame her over it?

Quote:
On my end, sex is literally off the table. The last time was 6 months ago.


Huge red flag. People want and need sex, if they don't get it in their marriage they'll get it somewhere else.

Quote:
The decrease in our sex life started shortly after my daughter turned 1. My wife always seemed not into it. My daughter started sleeping in our bed about that time.


We made the same mistake with our S. Every counselor in the world will tell you that's a major mistake, it destroys your sex life and creates a rift in the marriage. It's not good for the child either.

Quote:
What she hopes for during this separation is to find herself. She has told me that she doesn't know if we will be together at the end, or if we will never be together again. She just claims not to know.


It's not a "claim", she really doesn't know. WAS's typically are very confused about what they want and where things are going in the future. They need time and space to sort their thoughts out.

Quote:
She also says she doesn't love me right now, but will always care deeply for me.....From reading on these forums, that part sounds like bullsh1t.


It's not BS, she absolutely does feel that way. She loves you (in the friend sense) but is not in love with you (in the romantic/ emotional sense).

Quote:
I just don't know how to handle it.


Read DR again and again. Read other threads on these forums, there are many sitches like yours in various stages. Detach, GAL, give your W time and space. Settle in for a long haul, it'll take many months to begin to see progress.
Posted By: labug Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 02:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Spartan
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
but she holds anything negative to heart for a very long time. She still brings up an email I wrote her during a fight in 2007.

Talk about bringing up old things, during one of our earlier arguments after she dropped the bomb she brought up something I did in college (in 1993). I was in shock and told her I had no idea what she was talking about. I couldn't believe she held something that long. I then went a little too far and apologized for crapping in my diaper when I was a baby and said I hoped she wouldn't use that against me in a future argument... I've since learned to just deal with these type of things. My response would be different now thanks to these forums.


I had to smile when I read this because if you read many threads written by women, you see "he can't remember the kid's schedule"..."birthday"..."doctor's appt"..."he says he'll do [whatever] and then forgets", etc.

The male and female brains are different; it's just a part of the package. I think understanding that can go along way to not taking such offense at it. It is what it is.

So what can you do when those things come up? How about say something like: "You've mentioned that in the past so I know it was important to you. I apologize, I was wrong."

If she brings it up again say, "I know and I have apologized."

Do you find that it's unresolved issues that you keep hearing about? Or things are repeated?

Don't read only men's threads. You are married to women so reading those threads might give you an insight you won't get anywhere else.
Posted By: labug Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 02:43 PM
to a woman, not women.:)
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 03:54 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
to a woman, not women.:)


laugh Maybe marrying multiple spouses makes sense, then if you have a WAS you already have a backup plan, LOL!
Posted By: Spartan Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 04:24 PM
Originally Posted By: labug
Don't read only men's threads. You are married to women so reading those threads might give you an insight you won't get anywhere else.

Good point here. I do tend to gravitate to the guys threads on here. Today and this weekend it's all about the ladies threads wink
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 05:18 PM
I appreciate all the support. It really helps coming home to read this thread and share my problems. I hope when I settle in a bit, I can share my experiences towards other peoples situations.

I have a phone coaching session this morning, and boy do I need it. I have to say, since waking up at 2am to start my day (That's normal during this, right?) I have been feeling pretty pessimistic about our chances of reconciling. It just seems like the problems have been ongoing for too long, and my wife's conviction to get on with her life is much too strong. I just didn't realize it, and I am blaming myself for that. I've been reading though lots of threads and it seems like these things almost never straighten back out once they reach the point of separation. I would be lying if I said I wasn't discouraged, but I am going to keep up the fight. Looking for some motivation from my phone coaching today smile

In regards to my 180. I have been struggling with a couple things. I realize that I need to basically reverse my previous actions, which raises a problem. I didn't validate her much, if any. I also have been keeping my distance and not talking to her that much, for a long time. How do I address those things while still staying my distance and not sounding like I am pursuing her?
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 05:39 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I would be lying if I said I wasn't discouraged, but I am going to keep up the fight. Looking for some motivation from my phone coaching today smile


Also have a look at these threads, they're pretty inspirational:

Another Divorce Busted!

And also check out this sticky in MLC:

MLC Successes/Cinders list of Restored Marriages

And these bootcamp threads:

Successful Women

Successful Men

Unfortunately not all the links are active because some of the threads are quite old, but there's enough active links in there to keep you reading for quite a while. There are some newer success stories in the piecing forum that aren't included in the above, so look there too.

Quote:
I didn't validate her much, if any. I also have been keeping my distance and not talking to her that much, for a long time. How do I address those things while still staying my distance and not sounding like I am pursuing her?


Read the book I mentioned earlier (5LL), it gives a lot of great advice for many different ways you can validate and show love without actually saying ILY. One example from my sitch is my W comes over to my house and gets the kids ready for school every day which allows me to leave for work earlier. The tradeoff is I pick them up every day even on her weeks, but still, I've told her "I really appreciate you coming over and getting the kids ready, I know it's a lot of work and it's really great of you to do this." That's speaking "words of affirmation", one of the LL. And it's doing it in a non-pursuing manner. That's the sort of thing you can do.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 11:13 PM
My wife and I are actually doing that same thing. Ileave for work at 6am. So, the days I have my daughter my wife comes by to get her ready for school. I have been telling her how much I appreciate that.

Thanks for the links too. I need a little hope right about now

SHMO
Posted By: labug Re: In total despair - 11/30/12 11:48 PM
Quote:
I've been reading though lots of threads and it seems like these things almost never straighten back out once they reach the point of separation. I would be lying if I said I wasn't discouraged, but I am going to keep up the fight. Looking for some motivation from my phone coaching today


Again I have a rueful smile as I read this. The statistics are not in your favor because by the time you admit you have a problem things are reeeeaaallly bad.

But sometimes marriages are reconciled, so that's what we shoot for.

My idea of success has changed since I came here.At that time I hated to read those posts about how life was wonderful without H and now my thread is becoming that. Don't worry abut the future, just take each day as it comes and work on yourself.

Saving yourself and becoming a better person is a good goal and sometimes through that marriages are saved.
Posted By: KLB Re: In total despair - 12/01/12 12:06 AM
Hey suckerpunch,
I'd welcome the chance to talk about our very similar situations.

I'm surprised how few people truly understand what I'm going through and that I actually want to save my marriage.
Posted By: KLB Re: In total despair - 12/01/12 05:46 AM
Reading a post from one of the more experienced posters on the forum has made me question if this is even worth it.

The gist of the post was that LBS often has been given clues if not outright descriptions and requests from the WAS of what was needed by the WAS to remain happy in the marriage. When the LBS doesn't pick up or respond to those requests, eventually the WAS gets so frustrated that they shut down and eventually initiate Divorce. The Big D can be the thing that shakes the LBS to the point of realizing what changes actually needed to be made. Unfortunately, The WAS is so sick of it all the won't accept the potential for change in their S.

This makes me wonder if there is any point to try and Remedy my Divorce situation. I would love to hear from a WAW about their thoughts on this.

I've read the WAS forum and don't see much openess for possibility of change in their S within their posts.
Posted By: KLB Re: In total despair - 12/01/12 07:56 AM
I apologize, i meant to post that last comment to my thread. Too many windows open.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/01/12 10:08 PM
I had a major setback this past week. I broke down and phoned my wife, basically threatening divorce and saying that I would not let her take me for all I had. 2 minutes after I hung up I could not believe what I did. I have been kicking myself for that move...stupid destructive behavior.

Since then, I have really opened my eyes and WILL NOT try to to destroy my marriage on my own, ever again. I did talk to her the next day. She initiated the call to tell me that she would never try to take me for all I had. I told her that I was very sorry about lashing out and that I was simply acting out in fear and anger. I told her that I understood why she wanted this separation and that she was right. Things are bad between us.

For the obvious reasons above, my wife is becoming more and more forward with me about her conviction to move on, at least I "think". I am just so confused. She told me, during a meeting with her to discuss our custodial times with our daughter, that having a calender of days would allow me to move on with my life. That hurt. I "think" that means she is not even considering the possibility of giving us a chance anymore, or maybe I am reading too much into that?

I have been working on my 180's and trying to be upbeat when we speak. I am also working on myself, dressing nicer, still losing more weight, hanging out with friends. I have been trying not to pursue her, and I am getting much better, but still make the mistake of reaching out and trying to grasp at reconnecting from time to time.

This weekend in our town there is a Christmas parade. I have taken my daughter every year since she was born. I asked my wife if she was taking our daughter. She replied, "yes". Then, I asked if it would be ok if I tagged along. My wife said she didn't think it would be a good idea. I understood that and said, "that was perfectly ok, no problem", saying it in an upbeat manner and just left it at that. After we ended the phone call, She responded by texting this, "I am trying to keep things good between us, but not confuse things. I think for now it is best that we not hang out. I don't want to offer you false hope. I will be there Christmas morning to open Santa gifts for (daughter). I am having friends over and we are going to the parade together. I'm spending time with friends that don't feel stuck in the middle and awkward around me. I am sorry" I responded to that by simply saying "no that's totally ok. I wanted to go for (daughter). Honestly though, I hope you have fun". I am still just so confused with what is happening. I realize mistakes I have made and I want so badly to be given that second opportunity to prove myself. I know I cannot change her mind. She will have to figure it out on her own. I just pray she chooses to give our family that second chance.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/01/12 10:11 PM
KLB,

I tried to send you a private message, but it appears you have it turned off. If you want, I would like to speak with you about our situations. Just PM me your number and we can chat.
Posted By: stilllookingup Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 12:31 AM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I had a major setback this past week. I broke down and phoned my wife, basically threatening divorce and saying that I would not let her take me for all I had. 2 minutes after I hung up I could not believe what I did. I have been kicking myself for that move...stupid destructive behavior.


Oh my god stop this right now. I know you know now you shouldn't have done that but you might have a breakdown again and do similar thing to eventually destroy your possible savable marriage on your own! I've myself passed my desperate self destructive phase and working on myself now but I know I was in your shoes right after my H dropped D on me. As much as your wife needs her space, you really do need your time alone to yourself to think things through. Ever since I started giving my H space, I have so much time just to go to a coffee shop and think, read books and think, go for a walk and think. And let me tell you I've already discovered/noticed so many things I contributed in this marriage to push my H to the edge. I'm a W and also am (or was) hypocritical of things and was very negative about pretty much everything.

I'm telling you. One setback to her feels like a major setback. Do not ever have a setback like this or you might really lose her. I wanted to write this because I'm also rooting for you!
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 07:33 AM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I "think" that means she is not even considering the possibility of giving us a chance anymore, or maybe I am reading too much into that?


You are likely correct, she is not considering another chance. That doesn't mean she won't consider it later (months from now), just not now. So don't pressure her about it. For me the clock started at BD, but I recently found out that for my W the clock didn't start until S. So it seems like it's been a long time to me that this has been going on (almost 6 months), but her perception is that it's been too short (2-1/2 months) to sort out yet.

Quote:
I have been working on my 180's and trying to be upbeat when we speak. I am also working on myself, dressing nicer, still losing more weight, hanging out with friends. I have been trying not to pursue her, and I am getting much better, but still make the mistake of reaching out and trying to grasp at reconnecting from time to time.


I know what you mean, but believe me, I've been there and it will not give you answers and it will not benefit your sitch.

Quote:
Then, I asked if it would be ok if I tagged along.


Ouch. Well hopefully you learned not to invite yourself. It's OK if you plan something with D and invite W along, but don't invite yourself along when W plans it. The idea when inviting W is you're going with or without her. So you say something like "D and I are going to 'x', you're welcome to join us if you wish." Make it clear you're going with or without her, and that you don't really care that much whether she goes or not. That's acceptable under DB'ing, but anything else is pursuit. ESPECIALLY inviting yourself.

Quote:
I am still just so confused with what is happening. I realize mistakes I have made and I want so badly to be given that second opportunity to prove myself.


It was confusing for me too, because early after BD W sent signals that made it look like she was working on things. But inwardly she was done, done, done. It wasn't until after W left that I realized the confusion was all mine, she was set on leaving the whole time.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 09:02 AM
Found out today that W is speaking with another man. He is someone we both know, but very little, more of an acquittance. He is also going through a similar separation situation and they have been sharing their experiences. His wife left him for another man. I spoke with him on the phone for a long time, and he seemed very genuine that there is no bad intentions. I expressed that I felt ANY interaction or a buildup of a friendship would be a negative impact on our marriage. He sounded very focused on wanting his family back as well and agreed with my views. He verbally agreed to stop talking with her. Not 100% sure what to think about this, but I did feel he was being totally forthright and wanted our marriage to come back together. Any input here?
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 09:04 AM
AnotherStander,

thank you very much for you input. You are absolutely on the mark.
Posted By: labug Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 02:35 PM
Quote:
I had a major setback this past week. I broke down and phoned my wife, basically threatening divorce and saying that I would not let her take me for all I had. 2 minutes after I hung up I could not believe what I did. I have been kicking myself for that move...stupid destructive behavior.

Why do you think you did this?
Posted By: theUF Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 03:06 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Found out today that W is speaking with another man. He is someone we both know, but very little, more of an acquittance. He is also going through a similar separation situation and they have been sharing their experiences. His wife left him for another man. I spoke with him on the phone for a long time, and he seemed very genuine that there is no bad intentions. I expressed that I felt ANY interaction or a buildup of a friendship would be a negative impact on our marriage. He sounded very focused on wanting his family back as well and agreed with my views. He verbally agreed to stop talking with her. Not 100% sure what to think about this, but I did feel he was being totally forthright and wanted our marriage to come back together. Any input here?


Well it's two fold.
He knows the pain and how fragile the situation is, so he SHOULD know to back off.
They are going through the same situation and that might create a "bond".

My X became attracted to a guy she knew(right before BD), and it happend at the time where he had R problems as well. I understood they had been talking alot and felt like they "got" each other when everyone else didn't.

However, don't fight it too much or I think you will just push her further away.
Hopefully he knows the right thing to do.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 05:13 PM
You know, of course, that friend will tell her all about "why" he no longer can have a "relationship" with her. Expect a verbal thrashing from your W about contacting OM. She sees herself through with the M and talk to any man she wants to.....and date any man she wants to date without your permission.

I don't fault what you did, however, it doesn't help all that much. You are right, she is very vulnerable to any man right now. But she will see any intrusion from you as "controlling". So, what would be another option?
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 07:42 PM
I spoke with the OM again this morning. Their situation seems genuinely innocent at this point. However, I know how things work, and I know that their "friendship" is not good for my marriage. This could easily turn into something more than just leaning on each others shoulders. If anything, it gives my wife a view at the grass being greener on the other side of the fence. Here is this nice guy, going through a tough time of his own, sharing his feelings and being very nice and understanding to my wife. It's not a good scenario. He was originally shocked that I suspicion anything would be going on, but then he really began to see my perspective on their friendship when I laid it all out. He agrees that completely pulling away from her would raise suspicion. I asked him to do it in a way that hopefully leaves me out of the equation. He said he would come up with a solution, and he did not want to add any stress to our situation. He wants his own wife back, and he wants me to have mine. I am placing a lot of trust in him. I hope it doesn't come back to bite me.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 07:56 PM
I also gathered some information from a close friend of my wife and I. He spoke with her, and he feels the situation is basically what I suspected. She has felt empty and alone in our relationship for years and ended up falling out of love, plain and simple. I did not give her the nurturing that she needed. She says she needs space and time (which I need to give her more now than ever) to figure things out. She is also dealing with some of her own demons (not exactly sure what those are, but likely lifelong trust issues or insecurities). She is still not sure if she can or will want to reconcile. At this point her answer is no, but she did say that things could change. I find a little hope in that. She said the only way she will come back to me is if she wants to. This is exactly what everyone has been preaching to me, and I now get it. One thing that concerns me is she expressed that she has to have the feeling of love before she can return to me. I struggle with that because I think that love is something that needs to be initiated, prodded and helped along a little. It is not something that will just magically happen one day....maybe I am wrong
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 10:51 PM
I did it based on my own insecurities. I started searching for the magic bullet that would explain her actions and the total demise of our marriage. I went through emails, phone records, facebook, etc. What I found was that she had been contacting people outside of our circle of friends, making phone calls to numbers I didn't recognize and the ultimate was in a text I found where she was telling some man (I do not know who) that she was basically done with the marriage and moving on. She mentioned in that text that our D would be fine, "kids are resilient". After finding this information, I went into orbit and acted out immediately. Afterwords, I quickly realized my mistake. I over analyzed and exaggerated everything and painted a picture of infidelity and total departure from our marriage. I let my imagination run wild and depicted a worse situation than it really was. I'm learning as I go.....
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/02/12 10:56 PM
My last post was in regards to this....

Originally Posted By: labug
Quote:
I had a major setback this past week. I broke down and phoned my wife, basically threatening divorce and saying that I would not let her take me for all I had. 2 minutes after I hung up I could not believe what I did. I have been kicking myself for that move...stupid destructive behavior.

Why do you think you did this?
Posted By: Spartan Re: In total despair - 12/03/12 03:17 PM
You know all this but really need to 100% live by it:

(1) Don't snoop again
(2) GAL - I mean it. Try to get her out of your mind as much as you can and start doing things YOU enjoy. Get a hobby, read, workout, do something...
(3) GAL part 2 - Reconnect with friends, go out. To clarify I mean same sex friends because the opposite sex could easily lead to more problems
(4) Don't pursue or initiate
(5) Read these everyday (or even better before any contact with W) until you can recite them:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2250607#Post2250607
(6) I would also stop talking to W's friends about sitch. Only a matter of time before something gets back to her and I doubt she'll think kindly of you talking with her friends. Many of my close friends are also friends with W and I don't talk about our sitch with them at all even though they are supporting R and not D.
(7) Don't lose hope but keep expectations in check.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 12/03/12 05:19 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I asked him to do it in a way that hopefully leaves me out of the equation. He said he would come up with a solution, and he did not want to add any stress to our situation. He wants his own wife back, and he wants me to have mine. I am placing a lot of trust in him. I hope it doesn't come back to bite me.


Of course it will. This is just setting up for disaster. Your W will find out what you're doing at some point, and she will say "yup, he's the same controlling, manipulative person he's always been, I don't know why I thought he could change." Your best course of action right now is to back away from this. Quit talking to the guy.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I also gathered some information from a close friend of my wife and I. He spoke with her, and he feels the situation is basically what I suspected.


This could also be harmful, because since this is a mutual friend it WILL get back to your W that you were fishing for info. More controlling behavior. It is OK to talk to mutual friends, but NOT about the R. Talk to them about how great you are doing, what your GAL activities are, how good you feel and how much fun you're having. THAT is the kind of info you want getting back to your W, not that you're sad, lonely, depressed and pumping everyone you know for little rays of hope. The former will make your W realize you're detaching and she may very well start worrying she'll lose you. The latter will just reaffirm her belief that leaving you is the right thing to do.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/04/12 07:24 PM
Well,

I am at my wits end. As much as I try to follow the DB guidelines, I continue to fall off base. After chasing away the possible EA, I decided to engage my wife one last time before falling way back. I sat her down and calmly, collected my thoughts, and apologized for treating her the way I have for so long. I poured it out to her. I expressed that I have been negligent with her feelings and I lacked giving her the nurturing that she needed. I promised her with all of my heart that I had learned from my mistakes and wanted to be a better man for her. I wanted to hold her hand, go for walks and do all of those things that we stopped doing some time ago. I wanted to feel her touch and share our days together. I also want to do more things with each other and be apart less. These have been her biggest issues with our relationship, and the underlying cause of our actions and conflicts.

Of course, before going into this I knew her reaction would be to pull away even farther. She did test me on several things, but I feel that I responded to them from the heart. She expressed that she has nothing but the past to use as a comparison, so she felt I wasn't going to be able to make the changes I promised. She didn't believe me. I know I can, and I know I want to. I promised her that I could. I told her the only reason I was saying all of this was because I have had a change of heart and needed to get it off my chest. I honestly have had an awakening about my love for my wife during the last couple weeks. I couldn't bear the weight of carrying it, if we were to split indefinitely. I told her I needed to express it fully. Then, I asked her to consider it, really consider it. That was yesterday. At this point, I plan on pulling back. I asked everyone that has been taking my side in this issue, friends and family, to pull back as well in regards to pressuring her. It is time to just let her reflect and live. Hopefully she realizes she wants to give it another try, but of course that decision is only hers to make. I have said and done everything I can, with the exception of following the darn DB guidelines.....grrrr

Now it is time to settle in and really focus on my 180's. I know I was waaaay off base to DB thinking, but I felt this was something I had to do. Hopefully it didn't put me too far off track.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 12/04/12 07:31 PM
OK, you got it off your chest. Now DO NOT say anything about it again!! She knows and she'll remember. You don't have to keep reminding her of the convo. Now would be the perfect time to show her you're serious about what you said. Put the plan into action. Lovingly detach. Give her time and space. Remove ALL pressure. No snooping. No talking to her friends. No talking to family. No asking anyone to intervene. Leave her alone! Spend your time reading DR again. Make a list of your 180's and read it every day. Stick with it.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/05/12 06:23 PM
Thanks, Anotherstander....I'm going to do my best to carry through with those exact things.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: In total despair - 12/05/12 07:47 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Well,

I am at my wits end. As much as I try to follow the DB guidelines, I continue to fall off base. After chasing away the possible EA, I decided to engage my wife one last time before falling way back. I sat her down and calmly, collected my thoughts, and apologized for treating her the way I have for so long. I poured it out to her. I expressed that I have been negligent with her feelings and I lacked giving her the nurturing that she needed. I promised her with all of my heart that I had learned from my mistakes and wanted to be a better man for her. I wanted to hold her hand, go for walks and do all of those things that we stopped doing some time ago. I wanted to feel her touch and share our days together. I also want to do more things with each other and be apart less. These have been her biggest issues with our relationship, and the underlying cause of our actions and conflicts.

Of course, before going into this I knew her reaction would be to pull away even farther. She did test me on several things, but I feel that I responded to them from the heart. She expressed that she has nothing but the past to use as a comparison, so she felt I wasn't going to be able to make the changes I promised. She didn't believe me. I know I can, and I know I want to. I promised her that I could. I told her the only reason I was saying all of this was because I have had a change of heart and needed to get it off my chest. I honestly have had an awakening about my love for my wife during the last couple weeks. I couldn't bear the weight of carrying it, if we were to split indefinitely. I told her I needed to express it fully. Then, I asked her to consider it, really consider it. That was yesterday. At this point, I plan on pulling back. I asked everyone that has been taking my side in this issue, friends and family, to pull back as well in regards to pressuring her. It is time to just let her reflect and live. Hopefully she realizes she wants to give it another try, but of course that decision is only hers to make. I have said and done everything I can, with the exception of following the darn DB guidelines.....grrrr

Now it is time to settle in and really focus on my 180's. I know I was waaaay off base to DB thinking, but I felt this was something I had to do. Hopefully it didn't put me too far off track.





Consistent changes + sufficient time = change that she can believe

Patience...
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/06/12 12:38 AM
Thanks, Denver. I know I am my worst enemey with my erratic behavior. Emotions are the cause. I am generally a very grounded individual. Behavior like this is so unlike me.

Denver, looking at your signature, does this mean you have reconciled?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/06/12 12:49 AM
"As much as I try to follow the DB guidelines, I continue to fall off base."

How would that sound to you if your W told you that she tried to stick to the M vows but continue to seek an A?

"I know I was waaaay off base to DB thinking, but I felt this was something I had to do."

And you'll feel the same way the next time. All the LBH's feel exactly like you felt. What gets me is when some say, "I know I backslid, but......." It was a choice to have the R talk, and it's a choice to DB.

"Hopefully it didn't put me too far off track."

But usually it does! That's why the advice says don't do the talk. If you do it and THEN think you're ready to follow the plan, you'll discover it doesn't work well.

As has already been stated, you got it off your chest. And I hope you gave your last instructions to everyone. I REALLY hope you are through talking to the OM, b/c that is not how you solve the problem. Even if he does what he said, your W will simply find somebody else to be her "friend". She's had a taste now, and she's going to want more. So you need to buckle down and start doing what works instead of doing what you feel, and stop trying to control everyone.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/06/12 04:03 AM
Thanks Sandi, I think I needed a slap in the face. Here is one the problems I am looking at in regards to our sitch. My wife and I are sharing the house when each of us have our daughter. I also have an apartment on my property that my wife is staying in when she doesn't have our daughter. I stay at my Moms. Our finances haven't changed at all. We still have our joint account, still paying bills, still sharing food, right down to her texting me today about X-mas present ideas for our D school bus driver. Literally the only difference is we can keep a little space between us during the days and nights. I am not sure if that is enough to give my wife a real snapshot of what it will be like without me around. Really, she has a pretty good thing going on, tons of freedom, babysitter (me) every other weekend and nobody to answer to. I cannot kick her our at this point, because I agreed to the terms when this was to be a "trial separation". We set it up for 3 months, ending Jan.
Posted By: Spartan Re: In total despair - 12/06/12 01:26 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Here is one the problems I am looking at in regards to our sitch. My wife and I are sharing the house when each of us have our daughter. I also have an apartment on my property that my wife is staying in when she doesn't have our daughter. I stay at my Moms. Our finances haven't changed at all. We still have our joint account, still paying bills, still sharing food, right down to her texting me today about X-mas present ideas for our D school bus driver. Literally the only difference is we can keep a little space between us during the days and nights. I am not sure if that is enough to give my wife a real snapshot of what it will be like without me around. Really, she has a pretty good thing going on, tons of freedom, babysitter (me) every other weekend and nobody to answer to. I cannot kick her our at this point, because I agreed to the terms when this was to be a "trial separation". We set it up for 3 months, ending Jan.

My W and I are still living together and sleeping in same bed with court date looming over our head and minimal R talk. I understand how hard and difficult the sitch is and how you'll feel like a complete doormat. Just do your 180's consistently, DB (don't pressure or try to control anything, don't ask any questions, detach, GAL, etc...), and learn her LL.

For me I have a rough date for when I plan to S if things aren't improving to show her what life will be like w/o me but now I have to consistently show her the new me and what she'd be missing before that. Think about it, right now she doesn't like you so if she leaves do you think she'll miss anything? You need to become the perfect husband for her and then if she leaves she might realize what a mistake it is.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/06/12 02:19 PM
That's a very good point, Spartan. Thanks for that
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 12/06/12 02:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Spartan
For me I have a rough date for when I plan to S if things aren't improving to show her what life will be like w/o me but now I have to consistently show her the new me and what she'd be missing before that. Think about it, right now she doesn't like you so if she leaves do you think she'll miss anything? You need to become the perfect husband for her and then if she leaves she might realize what a mistake it is.



That was my approach as well. It was about 3 months from BD to S, so I made the most of that time and showed her the best H I could be. She did acknowledge how much I had changed, in MC she even said I had transformed into the "perfect husband". She still felt like she had to leave, but at least I was able to show her how things could be in the future if we get back together. Once she moved out I went into full DB'ing mode and detached. How it's all going to work out in the long run is still unknown, but I'm confident that I showed her what I could while I could.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/06/12 05:16 PM
How exactly did you show her? I feel if I detach, I cannot express those things that a perfect husbnad would express, kindness, touch, appreciation. I am a little lost with that portion of the 180's. To me, the 180 seems more like simply disconnecting, which wouldn't change much in the way our relationship has been in the last few years. We were already disconnected. If I am simply showing her that, "hey look I can lose a few pounds and get a new hobbie", I don't see how that will make her want to come back.
Posted By: MrBond Re: In total despair - 12/06/12 08:39 PM
Have you actually read DB or DR books?
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/07/12 03:52 AM
I've read DR a couple times.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/07/12 02:12 PM
The wife is running a 1/2 marathon this weekend. My daughter and I had planned to go out with "Go Mom" signs to support her from the sidelines. I would like to hear some thoughts about this, good idea or not?
Posted By: adinva Re: In total despair - 12/07/12 02:32 PM
I think that would be a nice gesture because it's involving your daughter in supporting her mom's achievement.

You may want to back off afterward to keep it just friendly and not pursuing.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: In total despair - 12/07/12 05:17 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Thanks, Denver. I know I am my worst enemey with my erratic behavior. Emotions are the cause. I am generally a very grounded individual. Behavior like this is so unlike me.

Denver, looking at your signature, does this mean you have reconciled?


My W and I have reconciled and are working on piecing.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/08/12 04:50 AM
I would by lying, if I didn't say that gives me hope, Denver.

Thanks
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/09/12 04:27 PM
Well,

I think my fight might be over. I have been working on my 180's and things seemed to be leveling off slightly, when the inevitble happened. My wife found out that I confronted the OM and had been speaking with her friends. Of course, things went from bad to worse and and now she has told me that she is DONE. She does not want me to contact her at all, unless it is in regards to our Daughter. I feared this might happen, and it did. However, I couldn't just let an affair take place without taking some sort of action. The OM still maintains that their relationship was purely innocent. I beleive him. However, they were forming a bond and I beleive my wife would have eventually wanted more. Unfortunately, a family member that I confided in (wifes brother) was the one who spilled the beans about me tracking her phone calls and confronting OM. At this point, I am not sure how to handle my situation. It is pretty grim. I don't know if I should try to continue my 180's in hopes that her anger will subside. Or, should I just move forward and ask her to leave the house and take away all financial support. Either way, I beleive she is probably not coming back. I am very distraught over this. I had such faith that we would eventually come back together.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 12/10/12 03:29 AM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
Well,

I think my fight might be over. I have been working on my 180's and things seemed to be leveling off slightly, when the inevitble happened. My wife found out that I confronted the OM and had been speaking with her friends.


Well it's a huge setback to be sure. Basically you're starting over again. Whatever trust you may have built up is now gone. You ask if you should continue your 180's, of course you should because they are for YOU. DB'ing is all about improving yourself so that you are a better person whether you reconcile or not. And there is still a chance of reconciliation, but it's going to take many months or work.

Here are some things I posted to you a couple of pages back, I'm pasting it here not as an "I told you so" but to help you realize what your wife is thinking right now:

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I asked him to do it in a way that hopefully leaves me out of the equation. He said he would come up with a solution, and he did not want to add any stress to our situation. He wants his own wife back, and he wants me to have mine. I am placing a lot of trust in him. I hope it doesn't come back to bite me.


Of course it will. This is just setting up for disaster. Your W will find out what you're doing at some point, and she will say "yup, he's the same controlling, manipulative person he's always been, I don't know why I thought he could change." Your best course of action right now is to back away from this. Quit talking to the guy.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I also gathered some information from a close friend of my wife and I. He spoke with her, and he feels the situation is basically what I suspected.


This could also be harmful, because since this is a mutual friend it WILL get back to your W that you were fishing for info. More controlling behavior. It is OK to talk to mutual friends, but NOT about the R. Talk to them about how great you are doing, what your GAL activities are, how good you feel and how much fun you're having. THAT is the kind of info you want getting back to your W, not that you're sad, lonely, depressed and pumping everyone you know for little rays of hope. The former will make your W realize you're detaching and she may very well start worrying she'll lose you. The latter will just reaffirm her belief that leaving you is the right thing to do.


So the bottom line is she thought you were controlling and manipulative before, and now these actions make her feel she was right. So where you go from here is to do the OPPOSITE of controlling and manipulative. Think about what that means in your sitch, and post it here so we can help you verify your course of action is correct. Part of your answer is in my post copied in above- when you talk to friends and family you focus on YOU and our GAL activities, NOT your W and NOT your M or R.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/10/12 05:42 PM
Last night my wife started hammering me, via text,about how many times I have spoken with a friend of hers in the last couple weeks, someone I have been confiding in. I wouldn't give her the satisfaction of catching her friend in a lie, and I simply expressed to my wife that everyone around us, our true friends and family, are concerned and wish only the best for us. I told her we're not enemies, and it seems like she is just looking for people that will tell her, "dump that guy". I said to her, that none of our true friends and family are going to tell her that, because they all know that is not right. She feels everyone is against her and that she can't trust anyone. I told her that comes from within herself, and that at some point in time she will have the clarity to see that I, along with our friends and families, are stating that she is making the worst choice in her life, because it will actually be the worst choice in her life. It is plain and simple. Of course, that all fell on def ears.

In regards to my 180's, I am not exactly sure where to go. I realize I need to button my lip and stop confiding in friends and family about our sitch. I guess I just need to move on and forget about her for the time being. How I interact with her from now on, I am not sure. I realize I shouldn't be cold, but how much attention I give her, I am not sure about. Do I answer her texts? Do I tell her she looks pretty when I pick up my daughter. Do I allow her to ask for favors. She just asked 2 days ago if I could have my Mother watch our daughter for a few hours while she was visiting family. Should I have simply told her, "find a baby sitter"?
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/10/12 08:14 PM
Here is my 180 plan:
I am going to approach my wife tonight. I am going to express that I agree with her, our Marriage is beyond repair. I am going to apologize for "stalking her". I am also going to say that I do not want to leave this relationship, not being friends. I am going to bring her a peace offering (Chia tea latte) and suggest that we try to be friends from now on, simply friends. I will add that we have a great daughter and I would really like to co-parent her the best we can. At that point, I am going to leave her alone. In a week or so, I might ask her to tag along on a friendly outing, which she will undoubtedly decline....a week or two later, I will try again.

Hopefully, by taking the guilt and pressure off of reconciling and the actual marriage itself, we can start to rebuild a friendship. I will keep it light. I will keep it healthy. I will keep it easy going. This is my plan....
Posted By: MrBond Re: In total despair - 12/10/12 08:30 PM
Umm this is a horrible idea.

DO NOT agree with her. You can agree to the spirit of her being angry, but you are perfectly valid to feel the way you did. She was not open to you, therefore you went looking for answers on your own.

And STOP trying to ask her out. She doesn't want to be near you right now.

That's why I asked if you read DR or DB. You don't seem to be following anything and all you're doing is sticking your foot in your mouth.

Did you really want to save your M?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/10/12 08:46 PM
I don't see where you are doing anything different. You still trying to fix things by talking! You want to give one more R talk....and THEN shut up. But you don't shut up! Don't you see how that very action has taken you deeper into the problem?
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 12/10/12 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I told her we're not enemies, and it seems like she is just looking for people that will tell her, "dump that guy". I said to her, that none of our true friends and family are going to tell her that, because they all know that is not right. She feels everyone is against her and that she can't trust anyone. I told her that comes from within herself, and that at some point in time she will have the clarity to see that I, along with our friends and families, are stating that she is making the worst choice in her life, because it will actually be the worst choice in her life. It is plain and simple. Of course, that all fell on def ears.


Oh man. You're doing so much damage. I don't think anything you read in DR took hold. All the stuff about not arguing with your spouse, about just listening (and being the world's best listener) and not talking, about validating her emotions, do you remember reading all that? What you describe above is the exact opposite of what you should have done. You basically told her she's wrong, her emotions are wrong, and she's making bad choices. The emotions that stand guard at the wall she's built around herself just threw more chains and padlocks on the gate.

23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.

Quote:
I guess I just need to move on and forget about her for the time being. How I interact with her from now on, I am not sure. I realize I shouldn't be cold, but how much attention I give her, I am not sure about. Do I answer her texts? Do I tell her she looks pretty when I pick up my daughter. Do I allow her to ask for favors.


Read DR again. Print out Sandi's DB 180 tips (see sticky at top of forum) and LIVE them. Those tips alone can be read in 5 minutes and answer all the above questions.

Quote:
She just asked 2 days ago if I could have my Mother watch our daughter for a few hours while she was visiting family. Should I have simply told her, "find a baby sitter"?


Per DR, whenever you take any action ask yourself "will this hurt my situation or help it?" Do you think telling her to "find a baby sitter" would hurt or help?

Quote:
I am going to approach my wife tonight. I am going to express that I agree with her, our Marriage is beyond repair.


I think you misunderstand what a 180 for this is. It isn't to go from talking about saving the marriage to talking about tossing it, it is to go to NOT TALKING ABOUT THE M AT ALL. Do not initiate M talks or R talks. Act "as if" everything is great, and you're moving on with or without your W. Detach. GAL.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

Quote:
In a week or so, I might ask her to tag along on a friendly outing, which she will undoubtedly decline....a week or two later, I will try again.


1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
9. Do not schedule dates together.

Quote:
Hopefully, by taking the guilt and pressure off of reconciling and the actual marriage itself, we can start to rebuild a friendship.


Yes, this is better. But you can't do this by pressuring her for dates. Just zip your lip about the M and R. Just let all talk be light and fluffy. Zero pressure. Give her space. don't pursue. Don't pressure.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/11/12 03:36 AM
That was the actual game plan that my DB coach suggested I try. My IC actually thought it was a good idea as well. Who do i believe?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/11/12 09:54 PM
Quote:
I am going to approach my wife tonight. I am going to express that I agree with her, our Marriage is beyond repair.


Are you sure you understood the coach to say that you should tell your W that the M is beyond repair and to mislead her to think all you want is to be her friend, knowing full well that in a week or two you would "try again" (whatever that means to you)?
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/12/12 01:25 AM
Yes,

I am pretty sure that was the instruction that he gave me. Actually, he even went on to suggest that I encourage her to keep corresponding with the OM. I omitted that by personal choice. I wasn't about to ethically point my wife towards conversing with another man, regardless of whether is has innocent intentions or not.
Posted By: MrBond Re: In total despair - 12/12/12 03:18 AM
I think he meant to validate your W's feelings. Maybe you shouldn't say "beyond repair". But that's your choice. If your coach tells you to do it, then go ahead.

I believe his thinking was that the sooner you push your W into the arms of the OM, it'll be the old "be careful what you wish for" scenario. Whereby the fantasy will be finished much quicker.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/12/12 04:00 AM
hmmmm...you might be right, but I thought I was pretty clear on what he was describing. His thoughts regarding the OM, is that he was also just left by a cheating wife, only 6months ago. My coach felt that his intentions are probably innocent, and that he could very well be a good advocate for me. he also said that it would happen with or without my blessing, so why not make it seem like I thought it was a good idea...I still opted out of intentionally sending my wife to another man.
Posted By: MrBond Re: In total despair - 12/12/12 01:49 PM
Okay, you're going to have to let us know more in detail next time the context in which your coach tells you things. When you explain it like that, it makes more sense.

If you just gloss over things, you will receive conflicting advice.
Posted By: Denver_2010 Re: In total despair - 12/12/12 07:31 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I would by lying, if I didn't say that gives me hope, Denver.

Thanks


"Hope" is the fuel that propels you through this process. There is nothing without it. Just don't let it turn into "expectations".
Posted By: bustingout Re: In total despair - 12/12/12 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch
I would by lying, if I didn't say that gives me hope, Denver.

Thanks


"Hope" is the fuel that propels you through this process. There is nothing without it. Just don't let it turn into "expectations".




I needed to read that exactly as you wrote it Denver. Thank you!
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/13/12 01:36 AM
That was well put, Denver.

So....I carried through with my coaches suggestion. I left out the part about pushing her towards another man. When I discussed it with her, I brushed through the part about the marraige being too far gone, but I did agree with her about that and supported her feelings. I asked that we remain freinds and be the best possible co-parents we could. She seemed to be somewhat receptive to that, of course she would be given the other option. She did express that she was not ready to start "hanging out" yet, but it felt like there was a window open for that to be an option at a later date. She was a little skeptical(I think)about my new idea to simply be friends, and she mentioned that she was game as long as it wasn't a ploy to woo her back. She expressed that she had wanted to work on a friendship with me for some time. I know I was already being misleading by using this tactic, so I confessed that I wanted to put everthing behind us and just see if we could be friends. I told her, "however, I cannot gurantee that I won't want to pursue you at some point, maybe down the road" and left it at that. This was all done over the phone when she was still extremely hot after the "stalking incident". Originally she didn't even want to speak with me, but all in all the call ened nicely. As of today, I have only heard from her regarding our daughter. We made a couple light fluffy comments and that is where we are today.....Now I wait and watch.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/14/12 01:18 AM
Well, it's only been a day...so far, if I wasn't confusing things, I would say there is already a difference in my wifes attitude, nothing major, but she does seem a little more pleasant and less defensive towards me. She initiated several texts and one phone call today, for somewhat trivial things. The first thing she asked was about the "new mascara" she just found in the bathroom. I explained to her that I decided to start using it to touch up some of the gray in my beard. I read about it on the internet. We back and forthed several times with her sharing some tips and things for me to consider for other options to color my beard. Later, she initiated some more texting. This time, asking if I had noticed the dog was shedding. our dog doesn't shed, so she was concerned. a few texts later and I said that I would keep an eye on him. Then later in the day, she sends me a text asking if I was still going to be able to watch our daughter while she went to her IC session. I said I had planned on it, and that I would be there with bells on. THEN, she mentioned that our daughter was going to be Christmas carroling from 4-4:30 and said I could come watch. I actually declined and said that I had some plans right after work, but I would be there in time to watch our daughter while she went to counseling. When I arrived at the house, she seemed "so so", but went on for a little while in the doorway about how the carroling had went, before leaving for her IC session. I am not 100% sure what to think about it, but at least it's better than the, "don't contact me, my friends or my family anymore unless it's regarding our daughter", that I got the other day. I realize this probably doesn't mean much, but it gives me at least a glimmer of hope. I plan on making a dinner and leaving it for my wife and daughter to eat when she gets home from counseling. I will excuse myself immediately when she arrives.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/15/12 12:50 AM
Well, this sux. Today, my business partners, who just so happen to be my Mother and Brother, decided it would be a good idea to eliminate my wifes position at work and lock her out of the computer system. She used to do a portion of our accounting and payroll. She was as reliable and honest as any person could be. There was no reason to fire her. Needless to say, this caused a little rift in our marriage situation. While my wife did express that she knew it wasn't me, she was obviously hurt and very upset, so much so that I just finished helping her move out a good portion of her belongings from our home. She will now be living full time in our apartment until the next move is established. I explained that I didn't want this to derail our attempt at building a friendship (grasping at straws). She still seemed interested in a friendship, but expressed that she is seriously considering legal separation or even divorce if she was able to afford it. This news was very destructive to me, and I am finally realizing that this very well might not be a reapairable relationship any longer. So where do I go from here?
Posted By: Spartan Re: In total despair - 12/15/12 02:36 AM
Keep doing your 180s and GAL! Detach! No change to original plan
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/16/12 11:38 PM
Here is a series of texts my wife and I just exchanged. I think this pretty much describes where we are. I feel that my work at divorcebusting may be done here.


Wife: I think it is best that I unfriend (facebook) you and the others in my life that are not being supportive of me. I dont want pictures of you with my old friends being rubbed in my face

Me: I'm not sure what pictures you're talking about. I haven't been in any, but I understand and agree that maybe you should unfriend me.

Me: Also, i spoke with the cell phone company. I can transfer your phone over to you. You would have to change your plan, because it wouldnt be shared minutes anymore, but then you could have your own line, own bill and own security. Let me know if you want to start that process.

Wife: Yes that's a good idea.

Me: I will work up a schedule for bills that you pay versus what i pay. I am not sure where your finances are right now, but like you said the other day, we need to move forward with our own lives. I would also like more time with (daughter). I miss her too much

Wife: That's fine and I agree we do need to move forward with this. I think a divorce is the best idea. I have spent a lot of time alone thinking lately and its not fair to just let you hold onto hope

Me: absolutely....i thought the same thing

Wife: Think about what you want as far as visitation and dividing up the house and stuff we have aquired

Me: I will want (daughter) 50% of the time, no less....that I am firm on

Wife: That is fine.

Me: house stuff we will have to talk with the attorney to see where that is even at. I will be honest, there is probably not much equity in it. We only own the structure and that depreciates over time....as far as our belongings, we can sit down and decide what you want to take and what i want.....your car will have to be refinanced if you wish to take that. It's under my name.

Me: do you want to get your own attorney, or do you wish to work through a single attorney to solve the details?

Me: I have about 2 grand to my name....im guessing you have even less.....that wont go far in attorney fees. I feel that you will have to incur the costs of that because you want the divorce. The decision to leave is yours. That is the reality of it. perhaps your mom can loan you the money?

Wife: Whatever I want 50% of the house value and contents. I think we need to sit down and each right out what we think is fair etc.

Wife: We are grown adults and can figure out something fair. I will work on that

Me: We live in a community property state....thats how it works....50%....im just saying that I bet there isn't much, if any, financial asset in the house. Perhaps there is, but I will have to talk to (our banker) and our (property attorney) to see....The things inside the house we can split evenly

Wife: How was that party last night? Enjoy hanging out with my old friends. Guessing once again they put ideas and [censored] in your head

Me: no actually.....we didnt talk about our marriage. It was a very fun party....and "your friends" have been in my life for a very long time, well before you ever met them.

Wife: I understand that. Enjoy them. Just funny how you bounce around day to day.

Me: Bounce around?

Wife: I am going to spend time with (daughter). Bye

About 30 seconds later, she initiated a phone call and started going on and on about how our relationship has been screwed up for a long time, how her friends are all screwing her over, how she hasn't got any support, how I am stalking her and making the situation so much worse, how I am lying and reaching out to all of her family... She's paranoid that this point and not seeing things even remotely clear. I don't think this is going to be saveable. That is a very harsh reality.
Posted By: MrBond Re: In total despair - 12/17/12 12:52 AM
First of all, here's the honest truth.

YOU dug yourself into the grave. You SHOULD NOT have agreed with her on the D? Why would you if you don't believe in it? All you did was validate her reasons which you said weren't true.

If you think that's DBing it's not. You validate her RIGHT to want to D. But you DON'T have to validate her decision to do so if you don't agree.

The more I read your post, I kept cringing because you were shooting yourself in the foot ALOT! And you have been doing since the beginning. STOP AGREEING WITH HER ABOUT THE D!

You're NOT lying to her, You're NOT doing anything to undermine her like she's accusing you of. Why on earth would you agree that you were? Be the man and tell it to her straight. She has to hit rock bottom. YOU can't lead her away from that.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/18/12 08:13 PM
I underatand what you're saying, and I know I have been undermining my own interests. I have blackslid and done the wrong thing at every intersection. Try as I might, I am just not able to emotionally detach enough to act in proper DB fashion. My hindsight has been 50/50, but that doesn't do much good. With that said, Divorce is now a reality. We have already had a few discussions regarding money and custody. Tonight we have a joint counseling meeting, for what I do not know. Furthermore, everything around us is spiralling out of control as well. She has ditched all of her close personal friends because they don't condone her actions regarding our relationship. her mother has called me threatening sever legal action during the divorce, in which I replied to by hanging up on her. It's simply starting to get ugly. It appears to be over. I have lost almost all hope of reconciling...barely even a pipe dream at this point.
Posted By: eyesopen Re: In total despair - 12/18/12 08:31 PM
Suckerpunch,

There can always be hope. Hell, the terms of my D are pretty much complete. Yet nothing has been filed. And I am actually seeing positive interactions with my w. We have shared some laughs, some smiles, and some conversations about more than the children.

There were times that our conversations got a little ugly, but I didn't resort to any R talk. It is so important that you try and stay positive no matter where the discussion goes. You can't control her, and more importantly don't let her actions and words cause you to do anything to justify her position. Tht is exactly what she wants. Right now she is/has rewritten history to justify what she is doing.

It is our job to create doubt.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/19/12 03:23 PM
During our counseling session, we more or less argued about everything. We hadn't done that before in front the of the counselor. After the session, everyone (me, my wife and even the counselor) seemed to be at an end point. We discussed mediation and speaking with attorneys. When we left the room, my wife and I shared an elevator. We spoke the entire time during the ride down to the lobby in a much more controlled tone. We spent another 10-15 minutes in the lobby expressing that we did not want to leave the relationship in an angry rage and how it had only been a week ago that we discussed having a friendship, so we agreed to let things cool off a little before we made any moves. I guess I will just have to see where that goes. At any rate, it would be better than fighting an ugly divorce battle based on anger and emotion.
Posted By: MrBond Re: In total despair - 12/19/12 08:53 PM
"I have blackslid and done the wrong thing at every intersection."

But you CAN stop that.

"Try as I might, I am just not able to emotionally detach enough to act in proper DB fashion."

Yes you can. You just haven't started.

"My hindsight has been 50/50, but that doesn't do much good."

Yes it does as long as you learn from each interaction.

"With that said, Divorce is now a reality."

It doesn't have to be.

"her mother has called me threatening sever legal action during the divorce, in which I replied to by hanging up on her."

why? You know that's something you could have controlled.

"It's simply starting to get ugly."

Stop contributing to it.

"It appears to be over. I have lost almost all hope of reconciling...barely even a pipe dream at this point."

That's up to you.

"During our counseling session, we more or less argued about everything."

Do you lose your cool? If so, that's something you have to take care of.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/20/12 06:23 PM
Mr. Bond,

thank you so much for your words of encouragement. I just need to keep my chin up, try harder and move forward. I CAN do this, regardless of the outcome. I know my wife is feeling the pressure of this too. She hasn't been sleeping, eating properly and is worried about her future. That makes me both nervous and hopeful. On the good side, at least she is concerned about her decision to divorce. I will just take it one day at a time and try to be my best.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/25/12 10:17 PM
Well.....pretty much the worst Christmas ever.My wife and my daughter just left to spend Christmas night with a family we know....not even that close to us. It just sux!

I had my daughter for the last few days. We spent Christmas eve with my family. this morning, the wife came over to open Santa presents with us, and to pick our daughter up. It was a little awkward, not being loving like we usually are during the holiday. But, we did sit next to each other and paid lots of attention to our daughter. Upon suggestion, I bought my wife a nice silver bracelet and included a friendship poem with a card. After reading it, she immediately teared up. Of course, I did the same even though I tried not to show it. She teared up once again when she read the card from my Mother, stating that she loves my wife, something that isn't expressed very often. My wife gave me a very nice coffee maker as a present. We did have some light conversation, but she spent a fair amount of time on her phone. Later after she left, she sent me an email saying that she didn't reply to the question in my poem. She said "I hope we will always be freinds" and she wished me a Merry Christmas. The overall tone today was somewhat milder than we have been. She seemed to be very unhappy with the way her life has been going recently. Even her family scrapped having her over for Christmas for some reason. I guess her parents are sick, and her sister had prior plans. She also doesn't have any plans for New Years. I do, and she expressed that she would like the first opertunity to watch out daughter, if she didn't come up with any plans.

I felt like I handled myself almost flawlessly today.How should I interpret this? How should I move forward? Is this just a complete lost cause, or should I continue holding a torch for this woman to return?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/26/12 11:48 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by saying you handled yourself almost flawlessly and how should you interpret this. Kind of sounds like you still expect something from her. Why else would you question if you should continue. You are saying you were flawless but it didn't do any good.

The fact remains that you set yourself up for disappointment every time you expect her to respond to you doing something positive......even positive behavior. That is why you have to improve yourself for nobody but you.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/27/12 12:16 AM
What I meant by handling myself flawlessly, was in regards to DBing. I stayed up beat, light hearted and positive. I avoided any conflict and dicussed nothing in regards to our relationship. I stayed detached, but pleasant.

What I was wondering about when I said, "how should I interpret this", was in regards to her responses. I actually do expect something from her. I expect her to wake up and realize that leaving me, our family and her life is wrong. Well, I shouldn't say I expect it, but I am hopeful of it. I completely realize that improving myself is first and foremost, but the fact of the matter is I am trying to reconcile my marriage. Should I completely lose focus of that?
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/28/12 03:31 AM
Small turn of events today. I am not sure if it means anything, but my wife wanted to come by the house to discuss parenting plans. While talking about which days and which nights we would be sharing our daughter, the subject of our relationship came up. Before everyone jumps to the conclusion, I didn't bring it up it up this time!...haha
The conversation wasn't very productive in regards to possibly reconciling. My wife still expresses that she is DONE. However, the discusssion of, "being friends", came up. Again, she brought this up. After an hour or two of discussing things peacefully and calmly, we decided to work towards a friendship. My wife expressed that is all that she wants. She doesn't want to work towards anything more, but she also said she doesn't know what the future might bring. Before the night was over, we ended up going for dinner together, with our daughter. We all finished the night up with a movie at the new theater in town.

I hohnestly don't know if this will be good for my mental or emotional health, or if I am headed down a path to total destruction. My hopes are, over the next couple months, that we can rekindle a friendship that will eventually lead us back to happy matrimony. I am hopeful that my wife will eventually come around....But, perhaps I am still in denial about all of this. I am just soooo confused :-/
Posted By: MrBond Re: In total despair - 12/28/12 05:53 PM
She wants to "be friends" so that her guilt is diminished. If you honestly don't want to be friends with her, then don't. Start GALing.

"I hohnestly don't know if this will be good for my mental or emotional health, or if I am headed down a path to total destruction."

This is why you need to detach and get yourself strong FIRST.

"My hopes are, over the next couple months, that we can rekindle a friendship that will eventually lead us back to happy matrimony. I am hopeful that my wife will eventually come around...."

She will not "come around" unless the dynamic of the relationship which she left changes. What have you done to be different?

"But, perhaps I am still in denial about all of this."

Yes you are. Consider yourself "divorced" and detach and live your life.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/28/12 08:11 PM
Mr. Bond,

do you really think that is the approach I want to take? I am obviously new to this, but I cannot let go of the idea that she will eventually come around. I DO want to be her friend. I want to be her best friend, only I want more. I also want to be her husband. She hasn't seen an attorney, she hasn't made plans to effectively move away. She really hasn't initiated any move towards divorce. moreso, I have forced her hand by being pushy. I know you are aware of the mistakes I have made previously. yesterday, during our conversation, she expressed to me that she originally wanted to work on our relationship, but after my actions the first few weeks she decided on leaving completely. That was roughly a month ago. Today, She is more coummuncative with me than she has been in the last several months.I know what she is "verbally" saying, but I thought I wasn't to beleive any of that and only half of what I see? She has also expressed to me that she is simply affraid to open her heart in fear of it being hurt again. That is her main reluctance to not reconcile, out of fear. I just feel that her choice to leave will eventually fade away and that her heart will re-open to me. Denial is obviously happening with me, but is it that far fetched to feel the way I do? Am I living a pipedream? Am I setting myself up for serious emotional damage by hanging on? I know her reality is going to set in even deeper with our new parenting plan. She will not see our daughter for a week at a time. That is going to shed some serious light on the reality of a breakup.

As far as changing the dynamic, I have full on thrown myself into being an outstanding parent to our daughter. I know she is noticing that. She has even mentioned it. I have also made big strides towards being non-critical, not just with my wife but in all of my realtionships. I am dressing better, looking better and being more upbeat. I am also going out and enjoying time with friends and family. I am improving myself! She has noticed that as well. We communicate better today than we have in a long time, much more calm and controlled. If we were like this a year ago, things between us would probably be good right now.

I was seriously worried about my DB coaches suggestion to go the "freidnship route", but it does seem like she is repsonding more to that than she was to anything else. Of course, like you said, it realses her from guilt. It also is an option that she really couldn't turn down. Her other option would to be enemies and battle it out in court. Of course she wants to be friends. I just don't know how to approach this in hopes of the best results. I don't want to lose her, and I can't move on until I know that is a reality. After reading your reply, all of those flutter chest pains are starting to come back! Am I doing the wrong thing and headed for serious heartbreak?
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/28/12 08:25 PM
I am sitting here considering this. On one hand I could detach and move on with my life. That isn't going to change my wifes mind. That is something only she can do. On the other hand, I can in fact become her friend. I can enjoy time with her and better show her how I have changed as a man. Again, this won't change her mind. Only she makes that decision. But, wouldn't I be in a better position to show her how I have changed if I can keep her closer without pursuing or being threatening? I "think" that was my DB coaches plan, basically removing the guilt and the chase so that she could settle down and see things more clearly....would love to hear some major input on my sitch. I really don't want to make any more major mistakes that I will regret later. I also don't want to end up being hurt more than ever.

Thank you for all of your time and effort smile
Posted By: LITB Re: In total despair - 12/28/12 08:50 PM
Just reading your last couple of posts.

You do realize that you can detach and remain friendly with your W?

Detaching does not mean moving on. Here is a link to help you understand what detaching is:

Developing Detachment

At the beginning of my sitch, I misunderstood what detachment meant. I was under the impression that it meant to move on.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/28/12 11:49 PM
IMHO, a LBH can find himself feeling very frustrated when he is in the state of "being friends". I personally don't think it works well when you are still holding out hope that the M will R. In your case, you've admitted that you expect her to respond to your behavior.....and when she doesn't, you don't know how to take it.

The state of "being friends" is a trap for many men. For one thing, she looks at being friends completely different than you do. It will start to drain you, b/c you will jump at every opportunity to do family activities together.....always hoping she'll come around. Of course, when she doesn't come around, then your frustration goes up higher. You will even find yourself very angry b/c things never go beyond being friends.

You see, a woman thinks in terms of a "friend" as someone who she has no sexual attraction for. B/c if there is sexual attraction, then it gets too complicated for her. That's what some people just don't get.

I believe the only time to be "friends" is if you get D, and enough time has passed that the hurt has healed enough for you to move on. Oddly, when this happens, you still aren't best friends b/c she'll be with some OM and you'll have your own life. There is a difference in being friendly....and being friends.

You really don't want to settle for just being friends, b/c you've already said you have a motive behind it. She wants the agreed friendship, hoping you'll be nicer. She doesn't want to deal with all the drama, and she thinks it would be so much easier in her life.

I look at this "friendship" thing the same way I look at you supporting her decision. You don't shouldn't support it, and you shouldn't agree to just being friends unless you're ready to call it quits.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/29/12 12:25 AM
Man...how did I get myself into this situation...grrr

I read through the detachment thread. Thank you for posting that link. I realize that I am lacking a few things that keep from completely detaching. Some of them I have handled.

Sandi, what you say makes sense. I can see how she might interpret it that way. I was just hopeful that she was simply putting up a negative image to protect her own feelings. I had hoped that behind that wall of negativity, she was still wanting to return to me. With that being said, I guess I am living a pipe dream. perhaps it is time to let it go and simply move on with my life. Maybe I need to cut her off completely, let her find a place of her own to live and stop paying for any of her bills, just turn her out into the street? It just hurts so badly. It all happened so quickly and it just doesn't feel right.....yep. As my title implies, "in total despair"
Posted By: eyesopen Re: In total despair - 12/29/12 01:22 AM
Sandi,

I am in a similar place with the whole friend thing. I am wondering how they will think anything would be different if you don't act like a friend. Someone who listens, who takes a interest in their daily lives. Especially if they think you didn't do those things when you were together. Am I way off thinking that you need to show them those positive changes before you really start pulling back. I am not sure how to act friendly without being friends. Do I just stop showing any interest at all? Is it "hi, bye, thanks for dropping the kids off." No questions about work, family, friends or anything of the sort.

I don't mean to hijack suckers thread, although we seem to be struggling with the same thing.
Posted By: LITB Re: In total despair - 12/29/12 03:43 AM
After reading what sandi posted, I reflected back on my sitch. What she posted applied to me. It wasn't until I stopped doing family outings with my W and began living my life for myself and our children. That was when my sitch shifted.

My W wanted us to celebrate our children's birthday parties together. I didn't want any part of it. I let her know that I didn't think it was a good idea and I would be doing something separate. I would only see my W during exchanges.

I was sincere in my actions. It wasn't a tactic. At that point I had accepted that my M was over and was looking forward to putting that chapter of my life behind me.

Not necessarily giving any advice. Simply sharing my experience.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/29/12 04:28 AM
eyesopen, no sweat hijacking. We are all in this together, and if we have similar situations, we will need similar advice. Actually, I agree completely with your question. I have been struggling on how to be friendly, yet detached. Reading that link helped clear it up a little.

In regards to the "friendship", I am really struggling with my decision. I mean, WHY would my phone coach recommend that I paint myself into a corner? I haven't spoke with him since, due to my quickly diminishing budget. However, I assume he had some sort of a plan in place. Now, I am verbally locked into a 2-3 month deal to be "friends" with my wife. We agreed we would take the time to work on a friendship and not push a divorce or separation further ahead. Originally, I thought that sounded great, obviously from my own perspective. It wasn't until Sandi really pointed out what a "freindship" would be to the WAW. It sounds like it would be completely different than my hopes or expecatations. It doesn't sound like a good place to be at all.

So, aside from continuing to work on myself, how do I play this out? We all know what the ideal goal would be, to reconcile. How do I(and eyesopen)get there from here? Really needing some solid advice on this. Thanks so much in advance.
Posted By: MrBond Re: In total despair - 12/29/12 10:40 AM
"but I cannot let go of the idea that she will eventually come around. "

You're treating it as if she's in some kind of trance. She's not. You have to deal with that fact that (at least for now) she is done. Sandi was great in describing how to detach. You don't have to get to the point where you tell her to f off, but you start learning how to stand on your own and not worry about what she thinks or doesn't think about you.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/29/12 07:45 PM
So at this point, how do I handle the friendship? Sandi made it clear about how my W will interpret being "freinds". It sounds like that isn't going to be a way back into her heart. So, now that I have painted myself into a corner, how do I get back out? Does anyone have any idea why my phone coach would have suggested this approach in the first place? I am really feeling discouraged. I realize all too well that my actions have helped put me in this situation, but now I am also feeling like perhaps I was lead down the wrong path as well by someone I invested my trust and money in to.

I am not ready to move on and give up hope that we will reconcile, but I don't know what to do anymore....
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/29/12 09:02 PM
You, along with many LBH's, want to believe their WAW is holding back her true feelings and inwardly she wants to stay in the M. You can read that all through threads here on the board. IMO, it is a barrier that he places between what he "hopes is true" and the cold reality of the stitch. So instead of doing what will work, keeps taking cheeseless tunnels.

Sure it hurts! But you are trying to take what seems to be the "safer" route, b/c you are afraid to really let go. You admit you still hold expectations from her....yet she has repeatly disappointed you and failed your expectations. Love hurts when you are the only one doing the loving.

I think some may have a problem understanding what kind of R to maintain, if they aren't together, just like they don't understand how to detach & remain friendly. Some men think they have to show the WAW his coldness, or sullen attitude in order to detach. They just don't get how to detach friendly.

Anyway, let me try to give you a closer look at the reality. But first let me say that it may or may not be along the same line as what your DB coach advised. So far, I have not understood why the coach told you what he did.

When the WAW is "done", she is not thinking about R. She is thinking of her life without you as her H. Now, depending on the individual stitch, she may or may not care how badly you get hurt in all the fallout. She may or may not be vindictive. But the one thing I've seen that they have in common is once they are ready to leave, they want things to be over quickly and with as little hassle from the H as possible. Of course, the H usually puts up some resistance, which makes things worse. If she has OM, or wants to be free to date, she will grow weary of H's persistent pulling on the rope. That's when she presents the friendship card. (Some offer the friendship immediately after dropping the bomb...b/c they want to have him for a friend........but no intimacy.). If the M has been SS for a while, then she may have already learned how to settle into this "just good friends" lifestyle with him.

Many couples live like roommates. When that happens, it is trouble waiting to happen. She still wants a man in her life, and she still has emotional needs she wants filled much more than the physical. If her H has been a "roommate", there's a good chance he hasn't been filling her love tank, and that makes her vulnerable to other men. In many ways, what she feels or thinks of her H........could be much the same as if she had a female roommate living with her. I'm sure that is difficult to grasp, but remember, this did not come about over night.

As I said, every stitch has different details, and perhaps your MR had a healthy sex life. But something was lacking.....somewhere. If there are children from the M, then she may want to have a friends-based R even after she leaves and even if there is OM.

I feel that most of the WAW's I've read about, want to have the best of both worlds. She doesn't want her H, and she wants to be free of the M, but yet she wants him to be nice about it and continue to support her, go to her rescue if she needs anything, and continue to have family events together....all at her beck & call. That is why the LBH can quickly becom trapped in this type of relationship with the WAW. If he doesn't do something she wants, then she cries, "I thought we were working on having a friendship! This is not how you treat friends!". She will pull that friendship card whenever it suits her.....but not the H.

I have always thought that the WAW has to suffer some kind of loss before she will consider R the M, and if memory serves me right, MWD agreed in her DR book. Stop and think about it, why would she change her mind if she's getting everything her way? If the LBH thinks that she will wake up one morning and realize she still loves him and is ready to R the M, then he will likely be disappointed.......b/c it won't happen as long as she gets him, family, events, support, and freedom, all at the same time and without being his W!

I doubt any of the DB counselors will encourage you to kick her out to the streets, if you ask them that question. But have you considered telling her that you will give her two weeks or a month to get a place she can finance, b/c you will not continue to support her if she is not going to be your W. She won't be your responsibility. She won't like it, but she won't like anything that doesn't suit her needs. Your part is to give her plenty of notice, and to do it without anger, coldness, etc. You have to be able to tell her calmly, with confidence, and strength. Knowing, but not telling her, that she has to experience being fully on her own before any hopes of her changing can enter the picture. Please don't express this to her. That would be like shooting yourself in the foot!

Along with not giving her financial support, you should withdraw sharing family events. This is another way she needs to see how life without you (or without her being M to you) wil be for her. You don't tell her that part.....you just politely bow out of any invitations or suggestions purposes,and you give the kids a second birthday party, or whatever. She can do whatever she wants with the kids, but not at your home and not with you

The key point in all of this is to do it as calm and in as nice & friendly way as you can. Whatever you do..do not get into an argument with her, and when she starts.....you end the communication quickly. Now this important......the goal is not to win her over! Yes, your ultimate goal is to R the M, but that is way down the list. First things first. I think that some of you don't quite get the point that there are things she has to go through before that happens. It can happen a lot faster if you can relax about actually getting her back.......and just act as if you know it is going to happen, just not today. (Another item you do not share.)

The WAW needs to miss her H, especially if she has moved out. That won't happen if you are making contact with her and trying to "prove" you are a good friend she can depend upon. I have read so many threads where men get caught up in that thinking. Goes to show how mixed up and crazy the LBS can get. Listen, she can find a girlfriend, but the only R you should want is a MR. You could knock yourself out proving something that she isn't even attracted to! Attraction is the main word here. Remember, if she thinks of you as a "friend", she probably won't be attracted to you in the way she needs to be attracted to a man.

I think one of you said something about not knowing how to be friends without showing interest in their day or take time to listen to them. You see? This is exactly the trap I was talking about. What I'm really hearing is a LBS giving excuses for not detaching.....and if I can hear it, you better believe she will see right through it.

Friendly detachment is what we do every single day that we come in contact with another person we don't have an intimate relationship with. Why is that so hard to understand? Yes, it's hard when it is your S! But you have the example of your everyday contact with others you meet and use politeness. That's the word! Instead of thinking about friends, just think of politeness with a co-worker you aren't interested in having as a close buddy.

You have to stay free of all her emotional pitfalls in order to stand any kind of chance of having her as a wife in the future.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/29/12 09:16 PM
You paint yourself into these corners b/c you don't take time to get advice and think it over before you act.

My advice is don't do anything to show you are trying to be her friend!

Think about all I've said. When you are ready, all you have to say is that you've thought it over and decided you really rather not have her as a friend. That's all. She won't like it, but so what? She may even get nasty, so what?

Whenever anything new comes up, you tell her you need to think about it.

If you decide to cut her off, you say you've thought about things and have decided.........
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/30/12 12:03 AM
Sandi2,

thanks so much for your time and effort. What you have stated does make sense to me, even though my heart wishes otherwise. I have been thinking about an exit strategy for the "friendship". I guess that will be easier than I thought. I can just step back and not be the one trying to reach out, and if she reaches out I can be less receptive. It will be tough, but it makes sense. Of course, I continue to stay "friendly" when we speak or see each other, correct?

As of right now, there is no other OM. She did express recently that she will at some point start dating. That should be obvious, I guess. You were exactly right on the assumption that our M has been like roommates. Our intimacy has been very seldom, and we had been sleeping in separate rooms for quite some time. That all started about the time our daughter was born and progressivvely got worse over the years.

In regards to detaching, I will need to focus on that much harder. My biggest issue with completely setting her free is complicated. First, she currently has a part time job. Financially she couldn't even think of supporting herself. There is no way she could put a roof over her head and my daughter will be with her 1/2 the time. That puts me in a difficult position. To add to that, she has little to no support here locally. My wife's friends have not been supportive of her choice to leave the R. Basically, all of her freinds have chosen to be advocates for us reconciling and she has pushed them away for not supporting her decision.At this point, she has zero support in our area. Therefore, her only support is in Canada, where my wife is originally from. I am fearful that if I put her on the street, even with a fair bit of notice, she would have no other option than to return to Canada. That scares me to death. I know she has already had offers from her Canadian friends for a place to stay. So, how do I detach in that scenario without jeopardizing losing my daughter as well?
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/30/12 12:05 AM
I VOW to ask here before I make any more moves. I am soooo disapointed that I have repeatedly shot myself in the foot by incorporating my own thinking. I know that DB seems counterintuative to normal behavior. I just haven't been able to switch gears and follow through. I need to work on that harder!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/30/12 01:36 AM
You are in a tough spot about her possible move to Canada and taking your child!

I do believe that fathers should financially support their children, and especially if the mother does not have a income to meet the children's needs....and in your case, your mother & brother are partly to blame for her not having a FT job, I think. Anyway, I would not jeopardize the child's welfare for any relationship......marriage, friendship, or otherwise. My advice is to get legal assistance (at least advice on where you stand). If you have joint custody, I don't know if they could haul her back from Canada or not. In fact, don't act on "anything" until you talk to a lawyer.

As for the people who do not support her decision, you have to realize that she has chosen this route over staying M to you. You care very much that she is alone, don't you? There are some things you can't protect her from experiencing....and as hard as it is, you shouldn't. One of the hardest things for many men is to not rescue the one who left him. She has to put those BG panties on!

I am so sorry you are in this sad situation.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/30/12 03:35 AM
I am so sorry for this sad sitaution too. I have already spoke with an attorney. My wife and my inlaws are aware of that. Probably wasn't a good idea to let that out at a MC session, but it happened. I had a consulatation to see what my actions needed to be regarding my business and assets. As much as I want my wife back, I wasn't willing to jeopardize a 35 year old family business. I wasn't going to sit back and just see what happened in the course of a divorce. in the cold light of the day, financially I don't think there is much my wife will get, other than a few bucks and some moderate child support. Even our home is somewhat sheltered by being owned by the corporation. It really made her mad to think she wouldn't get anything out of the value of our home. My wifes Mother called me in fury about it, claiming she has spoke with attorneys and they were going to sue for half of the business, screw me over, etc. So, I hung up on her. That is how this has been playing out lately. Our whole realtionship is on this huge stage and so many people are involved in it, from friends to family and everyone in between.

In regards to my daughter, it would depend on what a divorce decree would say in regards to custody and taking our daughter out of the country, out of the school district even. How that may or may not play out in a real world situation, I am not sure. It does scare me though.

My wifes cousin was just here visiting about an hour ago. Actually, almost every single person in our life is blown away at our situation. She is blown away that we are in this situation. Nobody can seem to get their heads wrapped around my wifes decision. Only a few months ago, this cousin asked my wife how we were doing. My wife replied that we weren't getting along that well. The cousin asked, "have you been thinking about divorce". My wife replied by saying, "oh no not at all". Earlier this summer, we were making future plans for trips and house remodeling projects. Less than a year ago my wife was discussing with a friend about having another baby with me. I am simply amazed that we have progressed to this point so quickly. At least it seems quickly to me. My wife stated to me the other day that she wasn't 100% out the door until as recently as 30 days ago.....that hurts. I do really feel that a portion of our marital problems lies in other aspects of my wifes life. She has had a hard time finding a job after being let go in the beginning of october, shortly before she left. She has had friends let her down. She has had some immeidate family issues, etc. I know that all has to somehow play into this.....but the fact of the matter persists. She is leaving ME...nothing more I really need to focus on I guess frown

My wife is definitely in some state of denial in regards to the severity of her situation. She literally makes $500 a month at her current job. Her car payment alone is nearly that. Yesterday, she bought 2 new pairs of jeans, a pair of boots and a dress, because she has lost so much weight her clothes are no longer fitting. Then, she filled her car full of gas and headed into Canada to party with friends for the next several days. Where she thinks her future of being able to sustain that is coming from Amazes me. She even mentioned she was looking into "BUYING" a town house......$500 a month doesn't look great on a mortgage loan request...haha

Anyway....it's grim and I just wish I could stop the insanity before it's too late. I realize I can't change her mind. I realize I can't put her out on the street, and I also realize I can't really rescue her.....but what do I do.....this just SUX!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/30/12 11:43 AM
I don't want to sound as if I'm pushing you into any decision, b/c you have to live with the ones you make. If it were me, my first concern would be to secure your rights as a father. As things stand, she may be able to leave the country with your D and nothing could be done.

You have to stop running at the mouth! You are your worst problem. frown

Do not say anything to anyone about this, or she could panic and take off.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/30/12 06:01 PM
Thanks Sandi,

I realize all too well that running my mouth has been one of my biggest problems. I am really working on that and have done much better the last couple weeks. I just need to learn to put the phone down and shut my mouth when my mind starts to exagerate the details.

I will speak with an attorney that knows more about immigration laws and divorce, regarding my rights as a father. That is good advice.

As far as my wifes living situation and medical insurance, I am not sure exactly what to do. I feel that I have to continue with providing that, for my Childs safety and my own. I know without medical insurance, any liability in the case of an incident would fall back on me. It doesn't make much sense not to cover myself. I did turn over the billing responsibility on her cell phone contract last night. I plan to turn over her vehicle insurance very soon. I guess it is not a big deal if these things come off as threatening to her. It is simply the reality of the situation, right?....like you said, Big Girl panties
Posted By: sandi2 Re: In total despair - 12/30/12 09:48 PM
Yes, but use common sense when it comes to things like insurance. Any medical or legal matters that could turn around and bite you....is not protecting yourself. Yes, by all means she should pay for her own phone bill.......but if your name is on any part of that car.....protect your best interest.

The LBH seems to have trouble knowing how to balance these things, but use good business sense.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 12/31/12 07:58 PM
Lots of anxiety today....slept about 2 hours last night. With the New Years celebration, my wife will surely be going out. I have some plans too, but of course, my mind is focused on her new beginnings. Will she dance, will she meet someone, will she do something she will regret, that I will regret, that sort of thing. It just hurts my heart. today, she has already phoned to speak with our daughter and wanted me to have her call at midnight so she can speak with her again. Not seeing our daughter, as often as she is used to, is definitely weighing heavy on my wife. I don't know if that is a good thing or not, but it makes me sad. Yesterday she phoned and texted several times to speak with our daughter. I ignored the first few. She has been reaching out a couple times a day over the phone to connect with our daughter. I know this time apart is getting to her. It is getting to me too. It just kills me when my daughter is asking questions about "how did mommy and daddy meet" "how did we get married", questions about our past....I had to get this out so I chose to write it here. I am having a hard time dealing with reality today. Depression meds aren't doing enough righ now.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 01/01/13 11:15 PM
I am asking for some input or suggestions.

My wife has been calling a couple times a day to speak with our daughter. She usually calls in the early afternoon and then again in the evening to say goodnight. I don't really have a problem with that, but it is probably a little excessive. I know that she is really feeling the hurt of being away from her so much.

Today, she sent me a text asking if I could add skype to my cell phone so that she can see our daughter when they speak. How should I reply to this? On one hand I feel that I should allow her to speak with our daughter any time she wants. Seeing her is probably good too. On top of that, I don't want to seem mean by not allowing it. But, on the other hand I feel like I should say, "Hey this is the reality of the situation, and You are getting what YOU wanted. You can spend YOUR time with her when YOU have her".

If anyone has some input, on how to respond in a productive way, that would be great. Thanks in advance.
Posted By: adinva Re: In total despair - 01/01/13 11:17 PM
You would be a jerk not to let her skype with her daughter. It almost sounds like you would be withholding this simple request in order to punish her, and that is not your place to do that. I hope you agree. Best,
Adinva
Posted By: labug Re: In total despair - 01/01/13 11:44 PM
Step back and really look at the situation, sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.

I don't think you want to punish your D.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 01/01/13 11:48 PM
No....I don't want to punish anyone, especially my daughter. I was torn on my feelings, but I totally agree with what you are saying. Skype it is.

Thank you smile
Posted By: adinva Re: In total despair - 01/02/13 02:31 AM
I need to go to LaBug's charm school. She is so much nicer.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 01/02/13 04:17 AM
Added Skype, and I realized pretty quickly that it was the right thing to do. It made my wife and my daughter happy to be able to see each other and communicate. On the flip side, I found myself hiding in the bedroom worrying that my 6 year old was going to point the phone at me...haha

Thanks again for the positive suggestions.

On a side note, it seems that my wife is either settling in to her new friends and environment, or she is becoming sadder by the day. Her New Years celebrations apparently bombed, and she ended up playing poker with her girlfriend and some of her friends, definitely not my wifes cup of tea. She sounded bummed that she couldn't get dressed to kill and go dancing. I am wondering if this change of attitude, meaning she seems more down, is any indicator of something about to happen. When she originally split with me, she was borderline euphoric in her happiness to be meeting new people and moving on with her life. now she seems almost depressed. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Posted By: adinva Re: In total despair - 01/02/13 04:51 AM
It is nothing. Get out of her head and stay in your sandbox.

Awesome that you added skype! You are a good guy and that's really cool. I hope you skype with your daughter too when she's at her mom's.

You can beancount and worry about what's fair and how much contact with mom is excessive during "your" time, or you can just be the very best dad and do the kind thing sometimes and you will be so much more attractive, to your W and to anyone else. Good job today.
Posted By: swoop Re: In total despair - 01/02/13 01:05 PM
Thanks Adinva,

I know I'm a good guy, and I'm a great Dad. I may have been off my game during all of this emotional roller coaster riding, but that is the real me.

So many things are taking place during this time, from Christmas, to New Years, to my wifes birthday coming up. Tonight, my daughter lost her very first baby tooth. I guess tomorrow morning I should text my wife to let her know?

We don't share a lot of pictures on this forum, but I thought some of you might enjoy this. It is a reminder of the happy things in life....

[img:center]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/734247_10151170509687190_608140788_n.jpg[/img]
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: In total despair - 01/02/13 09:27 PM
Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I am wondering if this change of attitude, meaning she seems more down, is any indicator of something about to happen.


Not likely, but it might be the beginning of her realization that you weren't the root cause of her unhappiness. But still, it's a long process for the WAS to sort through it all.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

When she originally split with me, she was borderline euphoric in her happiness to be meeting new people and moving on with her life. now she seems almost depressed. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


It's part of the learning process the WAS has to go through. Before they move out they have a fantasy in their head of what it will be like to leave and it's all puffy clouds and rainbows. Then when they do move out they find that they have to pay bills, they still have to go to work, they have to clean the house, and (horror) there's not a line of handsome suitors lining up outside their door after all. Reality has a way of spoiling a good fantasy.
Posted By: Sweetbriar Re: In total despair - 01/02/13 10:40 PM
I wanted to chime in that my H also seems more depressed and sad now than he did when he moved out. He is crying and has recently threatened suicide and here I thought he was so happy go lucky with OW and on his own.

I believe that when he moved, he thought that things would be better. He thought that things with OW would be great, that he would have all this freedom to do as he pleases (He is now working 2 jobs that is consuming his time) and he also thought our kids would adjust and be fine with spending only bits of time with him (they hardly want to see him or go with him at all).

So, I think that he thought life would be great and he is finding out that life isnt great. Now, does that mean he is missing me..NO, and I have no signs or clues that he is. He still seems content on doing what he set out to do...but I can tell you, he is struggling with life on his own. That is why is baffles me that they will continue their journey when they dont even seem to be happy on it.

I mean, Isnt this what they wanted??
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