I can't seem to post anymore on my original post so I thought I would start a new one. I guess I'm now in phase 2 - H has moved out and moved in with OW (cause he's 40 and doesn't want to live with his parents quote unquote). My D and I and our dogs are still living in our family home and will be til at least the end of the school year.
This morning I'm at a loss as to what I should be sharing with him about our daughter and how she is reacting to all of this. She is 5 and knows that daddy had moved out "for a while" but doesn't know about OW. He is spending time at the house with her and we were out at an xmas function together this weekend. She's always very happy when he's around but then when he's gone she's sad and says a lot of things that break my heart.
Last night after she went to bed she woke up screaming and crying for me so loud I actually thought someone was in her room. She was having a bad dream so I let her come to bed with me.
When she got up this morning I asked her what her dream was about and she said when she woke up she didn't have a mom and dad. To put it more perspective for those who didn't read, we adopted our D 4 years ago.
I told her she would always have a mom and dad and we loved her very much. She then said "mommy please don't leave" of course I told her I wouldn't. I told her it was okay to be sad sometimes and mommy would help her not be sad. She then while eating her breakfast drew a picture of just me and her. Broke my heart
I haven't shared any of the things she has said or done with him, in fear that he thinks I'm "using" her to get him back.
But should I be telling him these things? I know he would feel tremendous guilt but I don't want to be the person who makes him feel it, he needs to feel it himself.
Any advice?
I can tell you what i was informed.
Firstly, my W moved out 9 1/2 months ago after 3 years of affairs and depression after her mother passed away and no intimacy.
She rarely visits or calls our S-9.
My S has said many things to me in private, such as, "I thought i would be sad, but I'm only a little sad and i don't miss Mommy that much, because she's never around and doesn't do anything with us anyways".
I was told to Not tell her, as that would be construed as manipulative and trying to guilt her and be pushing her even farther away.
They said that she would eventually find out on her own and it was not my responsibility to share that type of information with her anyways.
Ed
Thank you. This is what I am thinking as well. He has already said to me in the past that I was "using" our D to get him back and I was trying to "turn her against him". So I am not going to tell him.
Another question about GALing - I think I did the right thing here. My D and I have plans tonight to go to a spice party (baking and stuff) at my girlfriends house. Her kids are going to be home so I will have some grown up time and my D will have some time with her friends.
H emailed me last night and said he would call or stop by on his way home from work tonight as hes going out of town and literally drives right by our home to go to where he is living now. My response to him was "Actually D and I are going to XX house tonight...."
I think this was the right thing to do, i'm not supposed to sit and "wait" for him right? I made plans and im not going to change them for him. I just worry that he thinks im trying to keep D away from him but he was the one who left so she is my responsibility full time now.
You are right.
Your life can not be put on hold for his convenience. Ad long as you don't have schedule motives to deny access to your D, then that is what it is.
Possibly you need a more definitive time schedule so plans can be made accordingly.
Ed
No the plans were made before he said this. When he left no plans were made at all. Even the "every second weekend" arrangement does not seem to work for us. I do all of my D's acticities with her and he hunts and works most weekends. My thereapist said to keep doing what I normally do and not force him to be more involved. So I'm not going to. I'm hoping he will eventually want to spend more time with her but he is living with OW and my D is not allowed to go there so that rules out overnight visits with him at her house. I'm not sure he has planned and he doesn't tell me.
?? Were you asking a question or making a statement? I don't want my H to think I have ulterior motives by telling him about our D and what she says. H seems to be very paranoid right now about everything, I guess that is part of the cycle.
No. That was a correction from the previous post where my phone substituted the word, Scheduled, instead of, Ulterior.
Let him find out from your D himself about how she is being affected.
He will still rationalize it anyways, as most WAS's seem to project. But, you have No control over his interpretations.
Ed
ok thanks very much. My D doesnt say or do anything at all when he is around, I think she's just so happy that he is there. The only thing she has said to him since he left over a week ago now is "Daddy why did you move out" and he said "because mommy and I werent getting along so daddy had to move out for a while". That was it.
I have been telling him about functions me and D are going to, ie like Christmas parade but have not been inviting him, more of a "youre welcome to come". Im getting through Divorce Remedy book, been doing alot of writing, and waiting to get to the 180s section which im almost at.
Alot of people think im stupid but I REFUSE to give up and one thing I am is stubborn.
Another question about GALing - I think I did the right thing here. My D and I have plans tonight to go to a spice party (baking and stuff) at my girlfriends house. Her kids are going to be home so I will have some grown up time and my D will have some time with her friends.
H emailed me last night and said he would call or stop by on his way home from work tonight as hes going out of town and literally drives right by our home to go to where he is living now. My response to him was "Actually D and I are going to XX house tonight...."
I think this was the right thing to do, i'm not supposed to sit and "wait" for him right? I made plans and im not going to change them for him. I just worry that he thinks im trying to keep D away from him but he was the one who left so she is my responsibility full time now.
Yeah, you did fine on that. Next time be even more vague, just say something like "Actually D and I already have plans." If he asks what you're doing say "going to a party at a friend's house." That sort of thing. Be a bit mysterious.
great thanks AnotherStander. how is your stich going?
I sometimes worry about being too vague because one of the issues is my H lack of trust in me due to my own MLC. He loves me but is scared I will break his heart. So I try not to be too vague about what im doing and where im going, I thought this would be a good way to rebuild the trust. What do you think?
great thanks AnotherStander. how is your stich going?
There were some new developments yesterday and today, seems W is having second thoughts about leaving. Not sure where it's going yet. I updated my thread with the info.
I sometimes worry about being too vague because one of the issues is my H lack of trust in me due to my own MLC. He loves me but is scared I will break his heart. So I try not to be too vague about what im doing and where im going, I thought this would be a good way to rebuild the trust. What do you think?
Well that does make sense. Michele warns in DR that we need to be careful of "more of the same" behavior, and if some of the DB steps can be interpreted by our spouse as "more of the same" then perhaps a different approach is required. That may be the case with you.
that's great news! I wish my H didn't leave and now he has said "its too late" but I don't know how to tell him ITS NEVER TOO LATE!!!!
I will read through your latest thread.
I am worried about "more of the same" and trust is a huge issue for us right now, its one of my goals - to have him trust me again. I know in my heart if he can get past that, we can get past this. but its going to take a while which is why im willing to wait (move on but leave my heart open as i say).
So my approach will be to get out and do things but with people he knows and trusts, and to be very open when he asks things of me. But im not going to volunteer unless he asks.
Well I think I may finally be catching on to the whole "don't chase" "act as if" behaviour.
Wednesday night I met with a therapist to see if my daughter needed some extra help sorting through this. H came to our home to watch her while I was there. I got home and as soon as I was putting D to bed, he left (I'm sure the OW that he is living with is aware of our D's bedtime because he always seems to be in a "rush" right around that time. Well that's how it feels anyway). So I got mad, and stupidly called him and asked him why he didn't stay to talk about the therapy session. Which led to a After a horrific telephone conversation with H where he told me a horrific call where he called me a f'n b***, a mother f'r, I ruined his life and he and our D was better off dead, and repeatedly told me we were done, it was effin over, etc. I stayed very calm and didn't react, knowing that his words are from anger and confusion. He also said he knew that staying together was the right thing to do but said he can't live in "hatrid". It was a very scary conversation. So that was a bit of an eye opener to me as to what he is going through in his mind. He's not talking to anyone at all, keeping everything bottled up. I simply re-iterated that I understood and that I loved him and cared for him but I was going to move forward with my life for myself and for our D. He did apologized and I apologized for calling. I am a reactor, I realize that now more than ever.
We didn't talk again until yesterday when he showed up to go to a xmas parade our D was in. Unknown to me, D asked him to come for a "sleepover" at the house (she is aware that she cannot have sleepovers at daddys "house"). So here he was, spending the night. I just stayed "me", and we got along and played games with D. It felt like we were a family, but that's just my perception of it.
I put D to bed and figured he would go to bed right after. Instead, to my surprise, he suggested we watch a movie. So I said yes and we stayed up for another 2 hours, watched a movie, talked and laughed a bit. I didn't bring up any "us" talk at all and I sat in the chair and he sat on the couch (I so wanted to curl up on the couch but resisted).
He left this morning and I of course was devastated but kept my cool, told him thanks for staying and fixing my car, told him it was appreciated.
So two questions: the first is the obvious one - could the movie be a small sign? My sister who does not want me to be with him anymore after everything that has happened (and is probably the logical side of my brain right now) has said he was probably just not tired. But in the 3 months that this has been going on, it was the first time he ever stayed up, with me, after D went to bed.
Question 2 for those LBS who have children - what do you tell your children? My D is only 5 so doesn't understand "permanancy" and when she asked him directly why he moved out he said "mommy and daddy aren't getting along so daddy moved out for a while". I of course hope he comes home but should I be preparing her for him NOT coming home? She knows and understands that he doesn't live here anymore but she doesn't understand that "daddy doesn't love mommy" anymore and from his point of view right now, he is "never" coming back - that has not been said to her. The child therapist said I am doing everything right for her (which prompted the call that scared me to pieces because I was so happy about it and he didn't even ask). But I don't know what to tell her long term, especially when I'm looking at this as a separation and he is looking at it as a "divorce".
Sorry for the long post.
Sorry, one other question in regard to communication - my D and I are still living in our family home, he's still paying half the bills and we did have the house up for sale but he agreed to take it off the market. This was my ask because I do not want to tranfer my D to another school while this is going on, too much change at once. And of course, I hope he comes back to his home.
So whenever H and I are discussing anything to do with the house, I always say "our". Our bedroom, our bathroom, our home, etc. And when his "current home" (with the OW) is brought up I simply say "where you are living". I refuse to call it his "home".
But I'm wondering if this is wrong? Should I be now be saying "my home, my bathroom, etc" ? I just wonder if he starts to hear me say "my" instead of "our" if it would trigger anything in his brain. What do you think? One thing I did do was remove his name from the answering machine (well its just an auto reply now whereas before it had all 3 of our names)
And I decided to take some stress leave from work, kinda regroup. My plan is to rearrange "my" bedroom to remove his dresser and have more space for "me" (I now have 2 closets!) And I'm moving the spare bed that he was sleeping in to my D's room to give her a bigger bed. Has anyone done this? I also wonder if it would trigger anything (plus I think it will be helpful for D to see some positive changes and our therapist agreed)
So whenever H and I are discussing anything to do with the house, I always say "our". Our bedroom, our bathroom, our home, etc. And when his "current home" (with the OW) is brought up I simply say "where you are living". I refuse to call it his "home".
Me too!
I know in communication, everything counts, including word choice, tone, pacing, body language... In my sitch, I speak this way because I am speaking "as if" she is coming back. But I also wonder, as you, what would W think if I spoke differently?
I know choosing different words would probably trigger "something" different, but don't know what?
I'd like to hear some of the experts' opinions as well...
I simply re-iterated that I understood and that I loved him and cared for him but I was going to move forward with my life for myself and for our D. He did apologized and I apologized for calling. I am a reactor, I realize that now more than ever.
You handled that part of it well, but you are correct that you shouldn't have called to begin with. You shouldn't ever call him unless it's something important (kid-related). If he calls you then be pleasant, but try not to initiate calls.
So two questions: the first is the obvious one - could the movie be a small sign?
Sure, I'd say it's a baby step, but don't have any expectations about what it means. It's just a very slight softening of his position. Celebrate it internally and keep DB'ing.
Question 2 for those LBS who have children - what do you tell your children?
My kids are older than yours, but I was careful not to blame W for the S. I told them that we both love them and are both here for them, but that the two of us are having differences and needed to take some time and space away from each other. I've reinforced to them over and over that it has nothing to do with them. S9 in particular has had trouble with blaming himself. I touch base with them every couple of weeks to make sure they're OK, but they don't like talking about it so I don't push it more than that.
So whenever H and I are discussing anything to do with the house, I always say "our". Our bedroom, our bathroom, our home, etc. And when his "current home" (with the OW) is brought up I simply say "where you are living". I refuse to call it his "home".
But I'm wondering if this is wrong? Should I be now be saying "my home, my bathroom, etc" ?
Personally I think you should reinforce your attitude of "moving on" and "acting as if" in every way possible. So it's "your house" and "my house". Before W moved (but after she had a contract on her rental house) it was interesting because she'd call it "our house" or "our home" and "the other house". Now that she's moved we both call them "my house" and "your house". I've never called it her "home" though.
I'd also suggest taking down any photos of H, especially wedding photos. And if he has any momentos around then remove them, place them in a closet or something and then tell him where they are and that he's welcome to pick them up.
Thanks AS. I have not been able to locate your thread?? Was hoping to read up on your progress.
I guess when it comes to D - should it stay as she thinks "daddys moved out for a while" or should I tell her "daddy is not coming home". Is there even a difference? And I was the one who had to tell her he moved out so maybe if he wants her to know daddy is not coming home, then he can be the one to tell her? And ill be there to pick up the pieces again
Thanks for the tidbit on the photos. When H moved out he took everything he owns but there are still pictures of him up. I wasn't sure if I should take them down because of D tho but I have been tempted to.
Thanks AS. I have not been able to locate your thread?? Was hoping to read up on your progress.
Part II is here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...502#Post2296502Looks like it's hit 100 posts, so I'll probably have to start a part III soon!
I guess when it comes to D - should it stay as she thinks "daddys moved out for a while" or should I tell her "daddy is not coming home".
I think it's important for DB'ing to always keep hope alive in your heart, and I also think it's just as important for the kids to have hope as well. So my personal opinion is that you shouldn't tell kids the WAS is not ever coming home unless it gets to the point of filing for D.
And I was the one who had to tell her he moved out so maybe if he wants her to know daddy is not coming home, then he can be the one to tell her?
WAS's seem to avoid discussions with their kids like the plague, so you probably don't have to worry too much about it.
I wasn't sure if I should take them down because of D tho but I have been tempted to.
Well it's your choice. But when W moved out I couldn't get them down fast enough, LOL!
Here's my latest dilemma, hoping for some advice.
H birthday is around the corner. His mom is very supportive of me and thinks I should "wait it out" so she is somewhat aware of my efforts of giving H time to sort things through.
Each year, we go to her house on his birthday for supper and cake. this year she said she is going to do the same thing.
I have a feeling tho, that she will ask him what he wants to do first (blood is thicker than water as they say and I am well aware of this). So if I do get the invite, it will be because he wanted me to go or was at least okay with me going. My inlaws have not met the OW and doesnt really know much about her (hell it was me who told them that he moved in with her).
So im probably thinking about this too much already because I don't even know what will happen. But should I go if I get the invite? Im kind of stuck in the middle where I need to do 180s on how I treated him in our relationship which means I need to show him love and support and that he is appreciated. But I also need to follow the LRT to let him see what he is missing and giving up.
Has anyone been in this stitch before? Any advice?
I saw this posted on someone else's thread: "Love is not giving up on someone even if they have given up on you". It is so profound and has so much meaning for me.
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I'm in the same boat also. My D is 15, so she knows exactly what is happening and understands. You can see my "stats" on my signature line.
I'm not sure I'd be able to attend b-day with H and family. It would be too hard for me. My H isn't acting like he is even thinking about coming home, although I want him too. So I have to GAL and do things for me. It's hard, but I'm trying.
EXAMPLE: every year there is a group of good friends that get together for dinner at Christmas. H and I were "founding" friends and probably actually started the whole tradition. Never missing a year, even when I was PG and sick as a dog! This year, they invited me (I doubt they invited H because they all know H is wrong) and I just can't go. It would be too hard to sit with all our friends and not H. So I invited all of them over AFTER dinner for dessert at my house. So far, 10 are coming! YAY me! I'm starting a new tradition, making it comfortable for me and showing H that I'm going on with my life with or without him. I hate that our friends as much as our family is being put in this situation, but it's not my fault. I KNOW this.
Anyways, still no advice. I can just tell you what I would do. Maybe just a convo with MIL and let her know that you REALLY want to be there, but it would be too hard. Maybe D can go, because MIL will always be her gmom no matter what. (I actually went to my FIL's for Thanksgiving without H .. it was just me and D - they needed to see her and I wanted to spend time with them, they are very supportive of both H and myself - good people).
I LOVE THE QUOTE ... I'm posting it to FB .. hope that's okay with OP!
What is a MDA and PP?
You H moved in with OW the same day mine did
I'm a bit stuck with the whole birthday thing. I don't think I would be uncomfortable. I would go and be happy and upbeat for my daughter. So he can see this is what his life is and what he is throwing away. I've talked more to his mom than he has in 3 months. He still hasn't even told her that he's living with OW - she heard it from me. I'm still keeping somewhat distant with her, not telling anything if she doesn't ask, blood is thicker than water afterall.
Our friends find it awkward, some have stopped talking to me, some are "egging him on" basically saying what he wants to hear and not what he needs to hear.
What is your husband saying and doing? How has it been for you since he moved out?
formyh are you GALing? it is very important. It helps to regain confidence. This stuff kinda takes your self esteem away.It destroys it. So it is very very importatnt that you do things for yourself, gain confidence, stop feeling or looking depressed or desperate. The friend thing is very common. Some will take his side some will take yours. That's why it is important to not talk to them about the stich. Is OW going to his birthday?
I am GAL-ing or at least trying to. I spend a lot of time with my daughter which is best for her right now because she is fearful now of not having parents. But its been lots of fun stuff like tomorrow we are going to see the nutcracker play with other kids and parents.
Someone on here recommeneded "meetup.com" which I checked out and I've signed up for yoga classes, cooking classes and hiking group. None of them start up again tho til January. I'm trying to get out a bit more but we do not have any arrangements which is the part where I am showing him I am supporting him. I've been out for coffee and movies with friends. I don't know what else I can be doing to be GAL-ing. My life is pretty low key and I don't have a ton of friends now (nor did I ever really). My confidence is quite wiped out but I make sure I "look good" and smile and be happy when H is around and also when I am at work and out and about. I've been saving my self pity moments for when I'm alone.
No, OW is not going to be there. As far as I know anyway. She is not allowed around my D, we have an agreement about that. So if he wants to at least be with our D on his bday, then she cannot be there.
Do you have any other suggestions for GAL-ing that would help boost confidence?
Should I be "forcing" him into taking care of our daughter? Its something I'm torn with. My therapist says no, I should not and cannot force him to be a father. He moved in woth OW so my D cannot go there and spend the night. He can come here and have sleepovers which he did once so far last saturday night. I stayed home.
So I know I could go out when he is here, but then I feel I lose my chance of showing him his true family life. And the one thing I did most in our relationship was not be home. So I look at it as a 180 for me to stay home.
Does that make sense to anyone? Or should my 180 now be go out when he is here? I'm willing to keep trying this a while longer, to make sure I've given it enough time, as it says in DR.
You can't "force" someone to do something.
Do what you can on your own and you're going to have to act as if he's not in the picture. Nothing is going to "show him" a true family life when he doesn't want it.
Thanks MRBond, I don't think I should have to force him to be a father either. But he needs to see what he is missing. And if he doesn't miss it, then that's his loss and he doesn't deserve to be with me or our daughter.
I haven't been relying on him to get out on my own. My daughter is in school so no time for anything week nights. On the weekends, I ask my sister or mom if I need to do anything. I just make sure to let him see or talk to D when he wants to, as I will never keep him from her or vice versa.
Two therapists I have spoken to (my own and a child therapist for my D) have said he is either going to "wake up" and come back or disappear completely from my D's life. I need to prepare for the latter unfortunately even tho I hope the first is what happens.
I'm not sure why your D is not allowed to be with her father while he is with OW? Others will chime in with a better answer on that. No you should not be forcing him to do anything. It is his responsibility to have or not a R with his D. Your job is not to fix it or destroy it. Are you working out,make sure you always look good, busy and happy. Stop thinking of H. Think about you and your D and things you want to experience. There are many GALing activities. When I have some time I'll post them
"But he needs to see what he is missing."
No he doesn't.
He's going to either want to engage or not. It's his choice. You make sure that your kids have the best Christmas ever and he'll hear about it.
The recommendation from the therapist is that our D does not meet anyone "new" for a year after physical separation. We both agreed to this. He is living at the OW home. Therefore, he is not allowed to take our D there for sleepovers. Does that make sense? He knows that is not good for our D either. He said that "when" he wants to take her overnight, he will stay at his moms house. But like I said earlier, he doesn't even talk to his parents right now, hasn't even told them he moved out and hasn't made any effort to take her overnight. He just comes here and "hangs out". And he spent the night last saturday.
I'm not working out right at the moment, only because I lost 15 lbs when this started and am now 10 lbs under weight. I've been meditating tho which helps the anxiety. I try to look my best when he's around and when I'm out in public and I will damn well make sure my D has the best christmas ever!! H has said he wants everything as its always been so that should be interesting. I've had christmas dinner at our house for the past 5 years for both of our families and we spend xmas eve at his parents house and boxing day at his grnadmothers house. How can things be "normal"??? His inlaws don't even know we are separated!!
Ok if that is the case why are you obssessing about H seen her? Let him do all the work and planning if those are the arragements. Loosing that much weight is not a reason for not working out. Try some weights, push ups grow some muscles. Working out produces endorphines which make you feel better emotionally. Try it. The depression may go away. No one wants to be around a depressed needy person, remember that.
I've had friends say to be that he is taking advantage of me. By me not saying "she's your responsibility this weekend" to him and letting him come and go as he pleases. There's no "arrangement" because he left. We had this silly "weekend on/off" thing but basically it has always been him coming and going and me doing everything. When it was "his" weekend, he would stick around in the evening but he would still work, hunt, shoot, etc like he always has. Don't get me wrong, I love spending time with my daughter, I just sometimes feel stupid and weak by not saying "I'm going out, you're watching D". I just let him make his plans and I arrange a sitter if need be. I feel stupid but also think I'm showing him I'm supporting him so he can do the things he loves. I don't think I'm portraying neediness...I don't think anyway, what would that look like?
And yes I know I should exercise, I used to work out every day before this started but H was around to watch D. I'm making space in my bedroom to work out after she goes to bed. That's my goal for next week.
Well here's an interesting event. I think the veteran DB-ers are probably going to yell at me but my H was here tonight hanging out with my D and I and before he left I hugged him.
My neighbor down the street, a woman, is in a MLC and is having an EA with another man. She has been sharing her story with me and I have been sharing mine with her. I think we've been helping each other see the other POV. Sounds like she's starting to come out of it and realize how much her husband means to her and I think her hearing about the pain and suffering me and my D are going through is helping.
Anyway, it was her suggestion. Her husband did it to her and it triggered something in her.
So when he was leaving, I walked up to him and just hugged him and told him no one would love or appreciate him more than me and D. He said "I know you've told me". I just responded "I know. Have a good weekend" and I walked away. He didn't pull away, I dropped my arms first.
In a way I feel a bit of regret for doing it but not a lot. Its the first I've said it to him since this started straight to his face and it was the first time I have shown him any type of physical affection. I do not plan on contacting him at all now and just let him have something to think about.
Yell away!!
Well what's done is done. The point is that he has to feel like missing you.
That was the point of it. Give him something to remember. I was upbeat and cheerful and he talked to me about his work and stuff while he was here, he initiated the conversations not me which was nice for a change, usually its me. And when I did hug him I stood my ground and didn't cry. I dropped my arms first and walked away. I think it was just enough and not over the top. So I do feel good about it, better than I did right after I did it. He has now heard the words right from me and not in an email or letter or on the phone. And I will continue to GAL and not make contact with him first. In fact I'm getting a sitter tomorrow night and going to see a friend play in a live band. I'm looking forward to it.
What is a MDA and PP?
You H moved in with OW the same day mine did
I'm a bit stuck with the whole birthday thing. I don't think I would be uncomfortable. I would go and be happy and upbeat for my daughter. So he can see this is what his life is and what he is throwing away. I've talked more to his mom than he has in 3 months. He still hasn't even told her that he's living with OW - she heard it from me. I'm still keeping somewhat distant with her, not telling anything if she doesn't ask, blood is thicker than water afterall.
Our friends find it awkward, some have stopped talking to me, some are "egging him on" basically saying what he wants to hear and not what he needs to hear.
What is your husband saying and doing? How has it been for you since he moved out?
It has been h*ll for me, but I'm GALing. Like Friday night, I hosted a "dessert" party for friends. See, every Christmas H and I would get together with a group of about 10 friends and go to dinner. H and I were "founding" friends and probably came up with the idea instead of exchanging presents, etc. We've been doing it at least 18 years. The group has been anywhere from 20 people to 10 people. So Friday the group of 10 went and I invited them over after for dessert. I just couldn't go, but wanted to see them. There were 6 that came to the house. It was nice and they all said I had to go next year for sure (I'm sure I will next year). I even posted on FB that I was glad they came and saw me and I enjoyed the time, that way H would see that I'm not sitting at home and pinning for him.
I'm sure there are a few of his friends that are neutral and don't want to get involved, but most are mad and will tell him exactly what they think. He just doesn't associate with them because he doesn't want to hear it. To him, what is done is done.
I'll admit, the first 6 weeks were really bad, especially Thanksgiving. It is a little better now, but I still replay all the lies that H told me and how stupid I was for falling for them. And even now, the lies that he continues to tell me. I'm almost to the point, that if H did happen to want to come back, that I'm not sure I could forget them. I THINK I could forgive OW, but the lies and lack of believing anything he says would make it almost too hard. I would second guess EVERYTHING he said to me. I love him and in my heart I'm not ready for divorce, so I'm doing nothing but sitting on papers (MDA is Marital Disolution Act and PP is Parenting Plan - basically what you need to get divorce, they are signed, but not filed with the state yet). But I'm also getting to the point that I need to start living like he is not ever coming home.
H contacts me about every two or three days for something related to DD or bills. I have completely stopped initating any contact. This morning we have been talking about Christmas, dr bills for DD, and DD's winter formal. Basically money stuff (and DD wants belly button ring and how we agree NO!)
From experience, H knows what he is missing. He didn't see DD at all last week because she was too busy to see him. She wanted to do what 15 year olds do. And I was okay with it. I think she feels like he doesn't make time for her, so she's not going to make time for him. I don't worry about their relationship anymore. Although it makes me sad that he is choosing OW over DD, but she knows it and can handle it herself. I do feel alittle bad because she plays the "buy me this cause Mom doesn't have the money too trip", but hey, I feel like he owes her, he's turned her happy life completely upside down.
I PRAY everday that God do His will, that He help me through the day, that He make his desires crystal clear. I always feel better after praying. I don't know what your religious feelings are, but just being about to say what you want outloud is nice. I feel like all my friends want me to move on and forget H, but I can't yet. I have to feel like I tried everything and did everything possilble to save my family. So, if that means, DR/DBing for 6 months, then that's what I'll do and I'll pray everyday the same prayer. That God will help me, soften H's heart and help him see what we mean to him and help me forgive H and what he has done. (It's a long prayer, usually in the shower!)I pray that D is good and that she doesn't let this jade her view on marriage and men (one of my biggest fears).
To answer the question about D not being allowed to H's with OW present:
My DD is 15 and I'm not allowing her to spend the night with H with OW present either. And I'm not alone with my decision. I've heard of plenty of mothers doing/saying the same things. In my case, DD know what H is doing is wrong, very wrong. He is married, OW should not be living with him. BUT, for me its morals. It is morally & bibically wrong to be living with/sleeping with someone while you are married. I feel like if I let DD go over there, I am condoning what they are doing. I want my DD raised better than that. AND when H left, he knew how I felt. He is choosing OW over his DD. To me, that's wrong also, so it makes me dig in even further. PLUS, DD doesn't want to be around OW ... but like I said, she is 15 and can basically make up her own mind. If H and OW are together for a while, DD will eventually be around them, but again, she can make up her own mind and she knows how I feel.
I am not a religious person but have found that I am somewhat "spritual" lately. Trying to seek a "higher power" to help me through this. I do pray. I pray every night that He will take away the sadness from my heart and the hurt and anger from my H heart and to give my D a solid foundation for her life. Its kind of long but I read it every night before I go to bed.
I'm glad a lot of moms are on the same page about DD not seeing OW. My D is only 5 and she still thinks daddy is coming home
I don't want to crush her hope and I still have hope as well. But he hasn't called or contacted since friday (well he called Sunday night but D didn't want to talk to him) and D hasn't mentioned him at all in 4 days.
Me and H communicate mostly via email. He doesn't inquire about D its usually what time he should call or if he "should" stop by or come over. He doesn't ask how she is or anything, its sad. I feel very responsible but I'm trying not to. I've done excellent at no contact since friday but wish I could stop the obsessive thoughts about him. I'm trying the thought stopping technique in DR but I know it will take practice.
Wow, I just typed a long response and lost it! :-(
I think you are doing the right things. Your DD sees you as primary caregiver and is clinging to you. She still loves her Daddy, but she doesn't see him everyday. It's okay. And regardless of what others think about letting DD spend the night with H and OW, that really is your choice, in my opinon. Is he fighting you on the decision? Have you sought legal counsel? (I can't remember) If not, I would suggest you do, just to get your ducks in a row. Just because you see a lawyer doesn't mean you WANT a divorce, it just means you are looking out for your best interest. And NOBODY has to know.... as hard as it is, you aren't bound to disclose anything to your H. Like my H, he kept a huge secret from you and if he's anything like mine, he kept lots of secrets. I don't feel bad about any I keep right now. He doesn't tell me where he goes or what he does, so I don't tell him. I love my H very much, but I'm tired of being treated like his rug. I want and need a little control of my own.
You'll get there. For some, it just takes a little longer and each should come to their own decisions/reactions in their own time. I'm not nearly as far I want to be, but I'm getting there ... day by day, step by step. Like I said, I love my husband and if he decided today he wanted to come home, I'd probaly say "Okay, lets try, but here are my stipulations" .... but I'm done letting him walk all over me. I'm getting on with my life and hopefully, regardless of the outcome, it'll make me a stronger, wiser and more attractive person.
He is not fighting me on any decisions. No decisions were made really. He just left and didnt ask for any rights at all. He calls when he wants and emails me if he wants to come and see her which isnt very often.
I have been to a lawyer and am going back again soon. Probably early in the new year. As much as I do want him to come back, if he choses not to then I need to make sure me and D are financially stable and have a good parenting plan in place. That will be my "last-last resort technique". For now im just staying dark, its very hard and as each day passes and he doesnt contact I get more anxious and sad but im trying to focus on the other things in my life which are not in "turmoil" (I think someone on here said to do that).
Sounds good. Glad you have talked with a lawyer.
I had a good counseling session last night. It was DivorceCare "Surviving the Holidays". The faciliators where a married couple, who both had been divorced. The lady was married for 16 years and for 13 years of that her husband cheated on her, he eventually died of Aids (gave me prospective that my situation could be so much worse!) Her husband didn't give his full story, other than he was seperated for nearly a year when he finally woke up one morning and decided it was time to sign the papers. He was remarried within 4 months and divorced 18 months later. They both agreed that I needed to set boundaries for H. He bascially comes and goes when he wants in our house. He still has a lot of stuff there that he doesn't need at the moment. The wife said I should set a time frame for him to remove his things. The husband disagreed, his gut instincts (and they have been doing this DivorceCare Support group for 15 years together) was that my H is in mid-life crisis and depression. That he will eventually "wake-up" and want to come home. It will completely be up to me at that point, so MAKING him move his stuff would be like shuting a door for H. So he suggested I do nothing yet. I don't communicate with H, unless necessary, so like you the more I don't hear from him, the more I think he is loving his new life. I don't know if that is true, I just know I need to give him time sort things out on his own, make his own decisions (no matter how much I disagree with them) and work on myself. WE CAN DO THIS!!!! Keep your head up and focus on DD!
AND, the one thing I did learn last night was keeping things the same at the holiday's isn't always helpful. Sometimes you need to mix it up. It's hard for me because so many of our traditions are family (extended) based, but I plan on doing something different with DD this Christmas Eve (if I can get my parents to agree). Maybe start a new tradition of pizza and movies... something different and NOT Christmas related.
Also, they suggested having a firm plan, something to look forward to. Maybe on Christmas Eve you invited girlfriends over to make cookies, or you and DD make and decorate cookies. Or maybe Christmas Eve church service? Just plan something to help get you through the time. I'm lucky this year, I only have 3 days off and back to work. It doesn't give me much time wallow in self pity. My H is coming over Christmas morning to do presents with DD and I. She wanted it. But she is older and understands much better than you're DD. But it will be hard for both of us. The husband leader said last night, that just remember, it's as hard if not harder for H to walk into the house he lived in as a visitor and try to do the "normal" things. But I look at it this way ... his choice.
AND, the one thing I did learn last night was keeping things the same at the holiday's isn't always helpful. Sometimes you need to mix it up. It's hard for me because so many of our traditions are family (extended) based, but I plan on doing something different with DD this Christmas Eve (if I can get my parents to agree). Maybe start a new tradition of pizza and movies... something different and NOT Christmas related.
Also, they suggested having a firm plan, something to look forward to. Maybe on Christmas Eve you invited girlfriends over to make cookies, or you and DD make and decorate cookies. Or maybe Christmas Eve church service? Just plan something to help get you through the time. I'm lucky this year, I only have 3 days off and back to work. It doesn't give me much time wallow in self pity. My H is coming over Christmas morning to do presents with DD and I. She wanted it. But she is older and understands much better than you're DD. But it will be hard for both of us. The husband leader said last night, that just remember, it's as hard if not harder for H to walk into the house he lived in as a visitor and try to do the "normal" things. But I look at it this way ... his choice.
Great advice about the holidays and it's what I've tried to do. I even got a new Christmas tree.
I also and struck by this:
it's as hard if not harder for H to walk into the house he lived in as a visitor and try to do the "normal" things. But I look at it this way ... his choice. My H has acted like a cat on a hot tin roof when he's here and I never quite understood it. This gives a new perspective.
This group has a website for surviving the holidays. You can google divorecare + holidays. It should populate in google for you. It has good tips, if you aren't "religious" or not.
My H just walks into this house and acts like he still lives here. Helps himself to the food, leaves his dirty dishes, has his shoes on, etc. But I refuse to nag at him. I'm trying to 180 and stay dark but his non challant attitude about what he is doing is so frustrating, its hard to keep my emotions in check. I did a good job tonight when he was here, but I need to improve. I know the "180" list pretty well but does anyone have any specific tips? Sometimes I wish I wasn't here when he visits D but on the other hand I am extremely anxious about him being along with her because of his head space right and comments that he has made. And I'm also worried about her and the way she thinks if she pleases him, he will come home. Since this started, he has only been alone with her twice (and only because it was my decision to leave the house, he has made no effort to spend any alone time with her in almost 5 months now).
I'd like to make some changes at christmas this year but it would mean changing things for my parents and H's parents and they have been extremely supportive of me so I don't want to do that to them. So I'm not sure I can do to make it more special for just me and D and our puppies.
Does anyone know of any good threads/sites on setting boundaries?
I'm not sure how you can make changes at christmas either. I was worried that my parents would be upset. But they are okay with changing up Christmas Eve. I haven't talked to DD about it yet, but I need to. I don't know that you have to change something, just add something special for you and DD.
My H comes in and its a little odd, but he basically just does what he needs to do and leaves. This weekend was DD's winter formal with BF and H came over to see her dressed up. He came in, got his mail and then started snacking on some pecans I had on the counter. I offered him a beer and told him it was in the frig. I was getting ready and DD was still getting ready. I talked to him while he sat on the couch eating pecans, drinking beer and watch football. We chatted periodically about DD's school and other things. But really just chatting, nothing heavy. We even took a family pix with DD in the middle. But him leaving was terrible. I guess because I hadn't seen him in almost month, it was so hard to watch him leave and me not have a clue where he was going. I was weepy all weekend. Because of that and a statement that DD made Friday night. See my post here - warning it's long, if you have time, just read the first post and the last few ...
Notsurewhattodo thread
I will read your thread after D goes to bed. H was supposed to come over tonight to watch an xmas movie, he never showed up. I don't know what changes to make at xmas because I don't know what he is thinking or what he wants to do. He doesn't talk about anything whatsoever and ignores everything going on around him.
We are starting a new scrapbooking tradition and on xmas eve if we go to MIL like we normally do we are not going to stay as long and were gonna come home just the two of us and open a present and watch a movie together before bed and say bye to "brianna" (our elf on the shelf :)). That's about the only thing different I can do so far.
I see my therapist on wednesday, the morning of his bday supper that both D and I are going to at MIL's house....he invited me, just not sure why. I want to hope it was for good reasons but probably for stupid reasons like he didn't want to spend the gas to "drive all the way out here" to pick her up, lord only knows.
I am doing something no one on here will agree with but I wrote a letter that I will give him on his bday. Its a letter more for me and for my D. It describes what I know I did wrong and my apology for it. In a way, its my "ultimatum" which I got from DR. But I need him to hear/read I know what my mistakes were and how I know I am abetter person by learning from them and that we are not going to be here for him forever as much as I love him. I've been "okay" with going dark and 180s, not great tho, lots more to do. But I will give him the letter and then life goes on without him. If he doesn't want to be a family man and a H again, then we are better off without him. It'll take time but its what will have to happen.
Going dark is so hard. I just realized after not seeing H for almost 3 weeks how much I missed him and I how much it hurts. I think not seeing him or hearing from him makes NC a lot easier. THEN last night, DD and I kinda got into it because of school/exams. I was already hurting and just need her to step up and makes things easier for me. I sent him a text that just said "
Sorry ... hit some button that posted! eeekkk ...
I sent him a text that just said "I CAN NOT DO THIS". Of course got no response at all. Which just added to the pain. And then this morning I regreted sending it. So, I just sent one this morning that said, please encourage DD to study for her exams. And hope everything works out for them in GA. He is going a business/hunting trip. He responded this morning that he "told her last night when I was going to bed to make sure she did good on her exams". Not exactly the re-enforcements I needed, but I guess better than nothing. The thing is ... I called DD into the living room and told her that I really needed her to step up and help me out. Just do really good in school, do what I ask without me asking a million times, just make things easier. That I needed her to. She was like okay, why? I just said, I'm holding on by a thread and I need help. My husband has left me for another women and my heart is in a million pieces and I don't feel like it's ever going to be whole again. Probably way to much for a 15 year old, but I figured she needed to hear my pain. She said that is the reason I want to go off on him. I said you can say anything you want to him. But it'll have to wait, he's leaving tomorrow for a trip. She said I blame her, it's all her fault. I said no it's not, she said YES IT IS. I said, we'll it's both their fault. She is SO angry, where I can SO hurt. What is bad, I truly believe he won't care that she is angry. Nothing will cause him to come back at this point. He has to figure it out on his own.
It pretty much [censored], doesn't it? I am sorry your DD is so young and has to indure it. And I'm sorry your H was a no show. That would make me soooo mad. I really try not to show much anger at H since DD is carrying so much, but in that situation, it would be hard not to.
"If he doesn't want to be a family man and a H again, then we are better off without him. It'll take time but its what will have to happen." - great statement, but so hard!
I don't want to say what I'd do with the letter. I "write" to H all the time, but never give them to him. I fee like he doesn't care, so no response from him would be so hard and painful. What do you expect from him once you give him the letter? You know, I asked H to sit down and talk with me, but I've changed my mind. I really think he "OWES" it to me. But more than anything he owes me time to get use to the dismise of our marriage. He says he's been thinking about it for a year (which I think is a lie) so I think he can give me time to "think" about it too.
Honestly, we NEVER faught or even talked about our relationship. He NEVER told me how he felt. He expected me to read his mind, as I expected him too. I blame him, but really it was both our faults. It's just I wasn't thinking about walking away and I wasn't the one that had the affair. I knew something was wrong, but because of his work/injury I assume it was more that. But yes, we were both at fault. I'd love to sit down an tell H that, but I don't think he is ready or wants to hear it. Do they ever?
I feel very sad for your DD
but glad she is old enough to stick up for herself and is prepared to and doesnt seem to take any blame for what is going on. My D said that to me the other day "this is all my fault" altho I don't really think she understand what her words meant. But it was after H was there and she asked him if she could go with him and he said no and then she was very sad about it after he left. I tried to explain to her that she already knows the answer to that question and if she doesn't want to make herself sad then she shouldnt ask the question. But my god I dont blame her in the least. He will come to the house and take the dogs but wont take her?????
The letter....well, I really do believe nothing will happen, hell not even sure if he will even read the whole thing (its LONG) but I don't care. One thing that I want to SCREAM at him is "you never told me!!! You never told me how you were feeling, what was going on in your head, that you were sharing your thoughts and feelings with another woman and that you were "moving on" YOU NEVER TOLD ME!!!!!
So the letter is my way of telling him - what im thinking and feeling and that we are prepared to move on with out him as we have been doing. Honestly, my life and D's life really isnt different than what it was before my own MLC. I was home, taking care of D, the house, the dogs, the bills, everything. And he was gone. That is what is has been like now for 4 months.
Do I wish that the letter would somehow in someway touch his heart, well of course, I would be lying if I said it didnt. H was always a very touchy feely, cuddly person. Small things would pull at his heartstrings. I know that part of him is dead right now tho. So even though I don't expect anything, I still want him to hear what I have to say. I want to be able to say "I told you" and I want to tell my daughter "I tried everything".
Once the letter is given to him (tomorrow night), then I ABSOLUTELY have to go dark and NC and 180 my arse off. It will be the only way to reclaim my life.
I feel very sad for your DD
but glad she is old enough to stick up for herself and is prepared to and doesnt seem to take any blame for what is going on. My D said that to me the other day "this is all my fault" altho I don't really think she understand what her words meant. But it was after H was there and she asked him if she could go with him and he said no and then she was very sad about it after he left. I tried to explain to her that she already knows the answer to that question and if she doesn't want to make herself sad then she shouldnt ask the question. But my god I dont blame her in the least. He will come to the house and take the dogs but wont take her?????
The letter....well, I really do believe nothing will happen, hell not even sure if he will even read the whole thing (its LONG) but I don't care. One thing that I want to SCREAM at him is "you never told me!!! You never told me how you were feeling, what was going on in your head, that you were sharing your thoughts and feelings with another woman and that you were "moving on" YOU NEVER TOLD ME!!!!!
So the letter is my way of telling him - what im thinking and feeling and that we are prepared to move on with out him as we have been doing. Honestly, my life and D's life really isnt different than what it was before my own MLC. I was home, taking care of D, the house, the dogs, the bills, everything. And he was gone. That is what is has been like now for 4 months.
I want to be able to say "I told you" and I want to tell my daughter "I tried everything".
My DD is doing good. I do feel bad, because I know she understands it's not her fault, but I think every child in this situation tends to blame themselves, just like the left behind spouse does. Only, my DD is so much like H it's scary and once she makes up her mind, it's pretty much made up.
It is terrible for both of our DD's, they are innocent. For you, your DD doesn't understand, so that's hard. For me, mine does and that's hard too. Only difference is how they handle it.
YES! I am the exact same way, that's what makes me sooooo made about H. WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME! Why didn't you tell me how trapped you felt or hurt, or alone, etc... It just ticks me off to no end.
And again, the same with me. It's almost that same for me. I took care of everything. I look back now and I always have. And I'm not sure why? Was it because I'm a control freak, or lack of trust, or just the way it happend. I'll be the first to admit, both H and I are terrible with money. When we first married, he was paying off a vehicle that he let be repossed. So, why would have trusted him to pay bills.
And I'm like you, I want to be able to tell DD, I tried everything. I want her to see me try or give H time. She makes remarks about other men to me, like I wonder if he's single, etc. But I just laugh like it's a joke. I haven't really told her exactly what I'm thinking, because I'm not 100% sure myself.
Do you think ... could I take him back and be 100% happy? Could I trust him 100% ever again? I ask myself those questions all the time. I could try, but it would take A LOT of work on his part to get me there 100%.
I wish my D was old enough to make remarks like that!! Unfortunately she thinks "mommy and daddy still love each other and just need some time". I wish that was true.
I gave him the letter tonight. He put it in his coat pocket. I'm pretty sure he will read it, I don't doubt that. I'm still not expecting any response.
Do I think I could trust him and be happy with him? 100% absolutely as long as he was willing to put in the time and effort as well. I would be committed like no wife before me (or maybe I should just BE committed lol).
I guess my big thing is, and what my therapist wants me to think about is who is he really and truly as a father and a husband? Do I just have this picture in my head of who I wanted him to be and he's not and that's why I pulled away from him? And now am I picturing who he CAN be? But I can't make him BE anything, that's up to him.
So I start fresh tomorrow. No contact, going dark, I have to learn what "dispassionate" is. Back to read DR one more time. I pray the letter will touch his heart in some way but I'm not counting on it. I just have to remember he's losing out on two great gals and someone else will be very lucky to have us.
You are so right ... both of our husbands are missing out.
So, how did the birthday dinner go? Was it hard? Uncomfortable?
From someone who has been through this once. I can tell you, that I trusted my H wouldn't cheat on me (obivioulsy, he left me clues everywhere but I trusted him so much I didn't pick up on them) but I never completely trusted him as far as leaving. I had it in the back of my mind, if I nagged too much or disagreed too much with what he wanted, he'd leave. And it happend anyways. So I KNOW how hard rebuilding trust can be. I do know that H would have to prove his himislf to me all over again. He would have to deal with me asking questions, checking the cell phone bills, asking where he was during the day, etc. I KNOW I could make the changes he wanted (if I knew what they were exactly). I could be the most communicative person alive, I could be the most supportive wife as possible with his hunting ventures and business venture. But it would be so hard, because I don't think his hunting venture will pay out, I need H to make money, not spend it. I need him to stop thinking about what his dreams are and worry about getting DD through school and college, then live out his dreams. But I honestly don't think any of this is me, I think H is in major MLC and depression and is ONLY thinking about himself.
So, I can't remember and can't go back too far, do you know WHY your H left, other than he wasn't happy? Do you wonder as much as I do what you did that was so bad? I feel like I live in two brains ... the brain that says I didn't do anything wrong, that it's all H. Then the brain that says, if things where great, he wouldn't have been looking.
And wouldn't you love to shake him and say ... if you aren't well mental stable enough to be with me, why is OW different? Does that show they don't really care about OW, just using them?
My therapist is out till the first of the year, but I'm thinking about calling the divorcecare lady I met with. She's been doing this so long, I'm sure she could help me get a few answers, or at least get me looking in a different direction.
Keep you head up! No contact, going dark for me too! Let's be accountable to each other if there is contact and report here ... deal???? We both know there will be because of Christmas, but I'm going to let H do all the contacting, not me! And when he comes over Christmas, I'm going to be looking good and be happy! Like this happens everyday. I'm going to ask about his hunting trip, ask questions about that. Ask about spring time business, etc. No OW or OR talk (not that I have since Thanksgiving), no telling him what I think he needs to do or voice any disagrement, etc. I'm doing 180 and learning to be super independant!
I pray with you that your letter will touch H enough that he will stop and think. And even if you don't see immediate change, that God continues to work on his heart. I pray that everyday, that God will soften H's heart and let him see that his family is where he belongs.
Notsurewhattodo: how are things with you? Sorry its been so long since my last post, been trying to work through this on my own. Obviously not working.
Question about 180s.
I know what I did wrong in our relationship. And that was not show H enough affection and attention.
Its been 4 months now and there's been no progress but I've also done a lot of what I'm not supposed to be doing
I've been srnding emails writing letters and basically being needy and desperate. So I've began to really commit my self to the 180s/LRT - no contact, not initating conversations, being nice but uninterested. I've even told him he cannot come and go as he pleases in our family home whereas before I was letting him.
He's coming this saturday to spend time with D. My first instinct is to let him come when he wants, make him supper, ask him questions to show I'm interested, let him stay as long as wants and to stay home while he is here. This would be the 180 of how I was in our relationship for the latter part of it. But it also means I do all this for him and then he goes "home" to OW, basically leaving me feeling like a doormat.
But then that goes against the 180 list/LRT????
I'm confused, not sure what to do. Do I 180 on my behaviour over the past few months or on my mistakes in our relationship?
I wish I had really really good advice for you, but I don't. I can tell you this though ... when H and I seperated before, as soon as I started to "move" on and become more independent and attractive and yes, had found someone to spend time with and generally became an fun person to be with, H decided it was time to come home. That DD and I was were he wanted to be. What did I do? I stopped calling him, nagging him, promising him, crying over him, I got a life. I don't think the 180 pertains necessarily to what were doing wrong while married, but what you did once the WAS decided to leave or talks about leaving. I think you have to work on what went wrong in the marriage within yourself, but the first thing is to make the WAS see you are different. Think about it, who is attractive to you ... a clingy, whinny man or a strong man who can laugh and have fun? Its the same for both men and women. We don't want that naggy, nerdy, whinny person ... I'm looking for someone that is strong, fun, personabable (for me a job is a plus)man that can make me happy. I say, do the 180 from what you have been doing in the past 4 months. No more letters, no more phone calls, let H come see DD and maybe use the time to go work out, or grocery shop or clothes shop. Be fixed up when he comes, put on make-up, jeans, nice top. When he comes just say ... hey H, I need to run to the mall, do you mind? How long will you be here? Call me if there is any problems. It shows you trust him with DD and it gives him time to spend with her without thinking you are spying or going to jump him any minute.
I do believe you can set some boundries. I haven't yet, but my sitution is a little different (see below). Ask H to let you know when he is coming to see DD OR better yet, go ahead and set that "visitation schedule". Just tell him you think it will be better on DD if she has a schedule. Pick one night a week and either a certain time every weekend or every other weekend. 5 year olds like schedules and it gives her something to look forward to. If he wants to come twice a week, let him... if it is scheduled. If he starts to blow her off, not show up, call him on it. Don't be afraid to stand up for your DD, she can't yet.
For me, it's easy, DD is older and uses H to do things she wants to do and I can't because I'm at work, or just won't do. Like Christmas day... she wanted her boyfriend to come hang out Christmas afternoon. She knew I wouldn't go get him, so she asked her Dad. And he did. He was at our house Christmas morning till 10:15 and then picked her up at my parents house around 2:00, went and got BF and brought them back to my parents house. I took him home. And yesterday, she got him to get her at the house and bring her to my work so she could go shopping with BF. They communicate every night and I never know it. I try not to ask her too many questions. I want her to feel like she can talk to him without me caring.... cause I don't. I want them to talk, even if it is on text.
My 180's .... I don't initate texting unless absoutely needed, before I made up excuses. I never call, again unless absoutely needed. When H is there, I don't jump up to cater to him, but I do respond to him, talk to him, be nice to him. We actually have a friendly relationship right now. Our only tiff has been child-support (timing of payments). I don't talk relationship and haven't really in a while. I don't talk OW and haven't since Thanksgiving. I asked him to change some flood lights for me, but I'm buying more this weekend and my dad is doing it. I bought gravel for my driveway without consulting him. I remembered to changed the air conditioner vent (although I had to ask where the extras were). I'm buying brakes for my truck and having someone to put them on (which is funny, cause it's HIS uncle), I had a flat tire yesterday morning and I put air in it and had it fixed ... not that he would care or know, but it felt good to handle it myself. (But a lot of his stuff, I handled myself before. I've always been very independent because H didn't do any of that stuff for me. He has bought me one set of tires since we've been married, I've bought my own brake pads, but he's found people to put them on. And he just recently started changing my oil, so I'll have to find someone to do that).
So, my advice to you. WORK ON YOU! I know you said you were ultra reglious, but pray. Let God help you. I promise, I'm not a bible thumper. I was raised in the church and worked for a relgious organization for 20 years .... I can't quote scripture and I've not been totally faithful for the past 20 years, but I do believe now more than ever that God listens and protects us. I feel so much better knowing that every day I turn over my problems to Him and He takes them so I'm not so burdened. I know I'm a far cry from healed .... but I feel so much better than I did even 2 weeks ago. I did have a weepy time New Years Eve and got out all the cards I've kept over the years from H. Our 20 year anniversary card really got me ... he hand wrote ... "I'm looking forward to the next 20 years".... it still makes me cry to know that exactly a year later, that all changed.
I really have to turn off my thought sometimes. The thought of the lies H told, the thoughts of the lies H could still be telling. I'm not responsbile for him. Only he is responsible for himself. I can't change him or his mind. I can only work on myself. Like you, I know H probably felt several things ... lack of affection and attention from me, feeling of failure within himself and lack of communication on both our parts. He probably also felt lack of support, because I didn't totally support his hunting endevor (which I try to be more interested in now ... that's probably the only "relationship" 180 I'm trying) I try NOT to respond to H in anger. Although thats a hard one. (not a relationship 180, because we NEVER fought or rarely did - lack of communication).
Keep your head up. Start journaling. Write to H, but don't give it to him. I have the same journal from 10 years ago, just picked up and start writing again. I haven't written since Christmas, maybe tonight.
Gosh, you sound so much like me and my situation, even the hunting!!!
Thanks for the advice about Saturday. He is coming around 6 and staying til 8 or 9 so I will step out for a bit while he is there. In a way it [censored] because he's leaving to go away on sunday for 2 weeks and he's only seeing his child for 2 hours?? His priorities are so messed up but I'm sure OW wants his time before he goes.
What do you know about OW? Have you ever contacted her? Do you see any hope in them splitting?
I have been doing things on my own and not asking him to help. I also have been a pretty independant person but H always took care of the outside stuff like shovelling so I went and got a new one and did it myself. I'm sure its not up to his standards but I think its okay.
I have an email set to go for the visitation agreement he has agreed to - one weeknight visit per week and one weekend night visit per month. I am dictating when they can be. I'm not going to be a doormat but I will be nice to him and happy when he is here. He looks so darn depressed it makes me sad. I think he feels trapped by OW and the situation as she is lonely and needy and has no one else but him now. So I'm going to be the opposite and not be needy. It was the one thing he said he loved about me, my independance.
I just want to work on myself, make sure D is safe and happy, and get back to being the person he loved for 15 years. If he doesn't come around, then someone else will be lucky to have me.
GREAT attitude!!!! H even told me that I was a catch and I'll be snatched up in a heartbeat (probably because all his friends told him how great I was ;-))
What do I know about OW? She is 41, like me. She has a son in college. We are all from the same town, I kinda knew her when we were younger (teenagers). Her dad is a big time deacon in his church. She worked at the bar where H went ALOT (obiviously to see her) and I was there one night and H pointed her out and her boyfriend out and said, he won't let her work without sitting her all night. I didn't realize who he was talking about at the time. Then one time I was up there with him and sitting at a table of older lady friends and she was our waitress, I remember her "looking" at me, but didn't think much about it. I never recognized her. Someone told me she is a recovering addict. She had mental issues when we were teenagers and I think her mom killed herself when she was much younger. Her ex-husband was controling and treated her badly. She been divorced 4 years. I have one friend who said she remembers some "scandal" about her at a local ballpark several years ago, maybe trying to snatch another husband, but that isn't confirmed. I do have her cell phone number, but I've never used it. Too childish. She moved in with him, she must know the situation. But for some reason, I think he might be lying to her also. She seems to let him come and go a lot (like Christmas) and I never hear anything if he happens to call me. Maybe he goes outside, I don't know. Do I see hope in them splitting? I pray they do. But, his dad did this exact same thing and is still married to the OW (30 something years later), but his dad also cheated on OW (wife at the time). So, I'm sure H thinks this will work. This is one of two reasons I'm not filing the divorce papers .... I want to try and wait him out to see if he gets tired of OW. AND, I'm not ready. I still have hope and still feel married. He says he had been thinking about this for a year, well to me, he owes me a year to think about it too!!!!
By the way, my H is leaving this coming Tuesday to go to a hunting show ... he actually told me this Tuesday (surprisingly!!!)
I doubt I'll be on over the weekend. I hope you have a good Saturday! Have fun and go shopping! Always makes me feel better!
My "OW" is 8 years younger than H, and 7 years younger than me. All I really know about her is that she is lonely and has no friends or family around here. So he's become the centre of her attention. I'm tempted to ask H if he knows about the email I sent her, my sister thinks she probably kept it from him. I don't know, I haven't decided yet. I may just sent an email apologizing for sending it (I'm not really, I said what I felt had to be said to help me with this) but its a way of letting him know if he doesn't know.
Do you see any signs of regret from your H? Any REAL hope of R? Or are we just hanging on to thin air? Either way, the 180s willl help.
He called tonight, I let D answer the phone as I always do when he calls, which isn't often. He wanted to talk to me, asked what we were doing tonight and tomorrow. I did ask him if he was coming for supper (I smacked myself afterwards but it was instinct). I was pleasant and cheerful on the phone. I told him I was going to go out for a bit when he got here "if that was okay" he said sure no problem and said hed see me tomorrow night.
I don't want to be a doormat but I don't want to be mean or vindictive or cold either, I want to be the person he loves, which is kind and thinking about him and his needs. I don't want to act needy either because it sounds like OW is (a friend that knows her told me this). I read that in DR to find out what it is that OW is doing for him and what she is like. H does not like neediness, that will eventually wear on him.
I'm starting to read the 5 Love Languages next, I'm hoping that will help. Its also supposed to help me communicate better with D, she is still my main priority. When H told her tonight he was stopping by after work tomorrow she whispered to me that he said he was coming and asked if that was okay.
So we will see how it goes. I plan on looking terrific when he comes and will leave shortly after he arrives and will stay away for at least an hour, going to do some shopping. Ill go home before D's bedtime and be cheerful and happy. Its the best I can do for myself.
Do I see regrets from H? Not yet. I think he is in relief not to have someone to answer too. I think he is enjoying his hunting trips, doing what he wants, feeling ultimate freedom. Our DD is old enough that she doesn't need him as much. He still calls/texts her every night and right now, that's enough for her.
Do I see any real hope ... no, honestly I do not. Am I hanging on to thin air ... probably, but right now, it's keeping me sane, so I'm good with it. But your H seems a little more sympathic than mine... my H might be but hides his feeling way to much. So, I think as long as you are healthy, hanging on to hope is okay. When it becomes an obession, I think it's not healthy. And you are right, concentrating on ourselves and daughter is the best thing. I can not let this situation run my life. As much as it could, I refuse! It is what it is ... I can't control H anymore than he can control me. I am even teetering on the edge of telling my lawyer to go ahead and file our papers with the courts. Our state has a mandatory 3 months wait period, so I have those three months to continue to hope. I just don't think I could handle our divorce being final and him getting remarried right away ... but in three months maybe I'll feel differently.
You know, one thing I want H to know that I haven't told him and don't know how ... the door is still open. If he wants me and wants to try again, its possible. Counseling is a must and honestly, not even sure it is possible... it's something we'd really have to work on. But I really don't see him kicking OW out. She gave up her "place" (I guess) to live with him, I don't see him being so cold hearted to her to kick her out with no place to go. She is the only reason he could live where he is, because he had no bed, no linens, no cooking utensils, no dinnerware/silver ware ... he had to move someone in to take care of him ... yet he calls me with computer problems and cooking questions ... Huh??
As far as OW, I don't really know anyone that knows her. We have one friend in common and she won't talk to me. Which hurts my feelings, because this friend was raised (as the OW was) in a strong christian background and I know she KNOWS what OW is doing is wrong. I honestly don't want to know what OW is like or what she does for H. I can't change me anymore than he can change who he is deep down. I agree with behavior changes, but I can't change me for what he wants. He loved me for 20 years like this ... I can change behavior but not my personality.
Your plan for his visit sounds perfect... even if you are going to the store, just say ... running some errands and look awesomely good! It'll show him what he is missing. I think it's okay you asked if he wanted dinner. It's being nice. No different thank asking one of your friends if they want supper.
I love the 5 love lanuages. Not sure which is H is. When I read it, I was reading it better communicate with my teenage daughter. I need to re-read with H in mind. I think he is a time person. And like I said, I'm sure in the past year, I've not showed him enough attention/time.
Keep me updated on the visits.
By the way, since H is at hunting trade show Monday, Tues, Wed, I sent a text Monday asking how it was going. Got a text back. Last night ... he sent me one telling me he was going to dinner with someone ... I sent one word response back. But was suprised I got one from him???? I'm sure he's texted OW pictures and lots of information ... I was probably an after thought, but I was still suprised.
I think I have to drop the rope. I don't think I have a choice. My H has now told me he wants our D 7 days on/7 days off. I supported and helped me BE a father for almost 5 years and he's barely been a father in 5 months. He walked out on us without telling us or making any type of arrangement for D.
I have been her primary caregiver her entire life. His life is roses obviously and he thinks he's in love with OW and they will stay together and he will form a new life with her.
And now he wants to take my daughter. There's no hope left, only a will to fight for my D.
WOW ... so, so, sorry! Don't stop working though. Any thing can change. Please don't give up on yourself. You've said all along, you will be a catch for someone, keep that attitude, because you are right!
WE CAN NOT CONTROL THEM! I'm slowly figuring this out. And everyday I wake up telling myself I can only control me. I can't control DD, I can't control OW and I can't control H. I can't love H back to me, I can't hate back to me, it's all on him.
Sometimes people have to loose what they have the most to figure it out. My guess is that your H will figure it out. What you do then is only your business. Your divorce is going to take a while. It's not immediate. DO NOT LAY DOWN ON THE VISITION. If you aren't comfortable, please voice it! Tell your lawyer what you want. Let him tell his lawyer what he wants. Maybe you can meet in the middle. AND you could always ASK for your DD not to have overnight visits. You can ask for anything. You are your childs voice. Please voice it. You don't seem to be a mean, vindictive person, so don't start now, but be firm about what you think is best for your child.
THERE IS ALWAYS HOPE. “Remember, Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.” ― Stephen King
Keep posting! I promise I'll respond... might not be the best advice or most prophetic advice, but I'm listening .....
I know I love him and miss him, alot, but he scares me. I never know what he is thinking from day to day. I really feel he thinks it is "it" with OW. In my heart, I feel it is over for him and I am just torturing myself at this point. I can't let him take my daughter from me.
Im going to start a new post around is it time to drop the rope.
I hope someone with more "experience/knowledge" can give you some good advice. I just don't have any. I say you don't have to agree with 7 on/7 off, that's not normal. And since you didn't agree with it in writing, you can change your mind? Right?
I understand giving up on him. I think about it also. I'm just not there yet. But I can move on and still have hope. I think I can hold on to hope for a long time. I've held on to hope that things would change for us for the past 3 years (his work situation).
Maybe your H is still in affair "fog", dating fun, he has NO responsbilities that he feels. I happen to think he is in major MLC, but problems that you have had in the past could be contributing factor also. It's hard to tell and you'll probably never know.
"My H has now told me he wants our D 7 days on/7 days off."
That's his right.
"I supported and helped me BE a father for almost 5 years and he's barely been a father in 5 months."
Let's be honest here. YOu walked out on them first which is what you explained when you first got here. He closed himself off because you walked away from both your H and your D. Just because now you've reached a revelation doesn't make the hurt he experienced go away.
"I have been her primary caregiver her entire life."
Again not necessarily true when you were going through your MLC.
"His life is roses obviously and he thinks he's in love with OW and they will stay together and he will form a new life with her."
Going back he really didn't have a choice in the matter. You left him emotionally remember? Of course he's going to get it somewhere else.
"There's no hope left, only a will to fight for my D."
There is hope but you have to stop thinking of it as a competition or a fight. He had very real feelings that were affected by you. Just because you've come to terms with it doesn't mean that he has. He loves the OW because she gives him love which is what you didn't.
If this sounds harsh it's meant to. It's the reality of what happened. He's not a bad guy, he's just getting what he should have been getting in the first place with you.
There is hope but you have to first understand his POV and be compassionate about it to a certain degree so you can see what your plan of action should be.
I am seeing my lawyer next week and I spoke to a legal aid lawyer today, they give out free advice. My friend who is a paralegal is also calling me tonight. I posted another thread called "is it time to drop the rope".
The legal aid lawyer told me that H can go ahead and ask for 50 50 custody but I can so no and he will probably not get it based on the current status quo.
We have nothing whatsoever in writing, just my emails and letters begging him to come home and be a family. I never agreed to 50 50 custody and ive told him from the start I would never agree to that.
I too think he is in a MLC and it probably is brought on by my past behaviour. He actually said that to me during a heated argument quite some time ago. He doesn't look happy ever when I see him and he said he is miserable (and blames me for that too).
MrBond, I appreciate your honesty but many things have transpired since my original post and the reasons for me leaving are much more clear to me now. I did feel at the time of posting that I did "abandon" my daughter but that is not the case and I have been working with a therapist to see that that is simply not true. I felt that way because of the emotional stress I was under and the guilt that I felt.
I won't get into it all here but I really have been her primary caregiver EVEN during my mid life crisis. He was a father when he was FORCED to be a father and I do not mean that to sound harsh but that is the reality.
He absolutely has a right to go for any type of custody he so chooses and I do completely understand that I hurt him and did not support him emotionally for a very long time. I have from the very beginning taken my responsiblity for this. But that has to do with him, not our daughter. But he could have told me he was done and was moving on instead of telling me he loved me and would wait for me while I worked through my issues all the while seeing OM behind my back.
In the 5 months he has been with OW, he has barely spent any time with D, and barely calls. His priorities are OW, his jobs and his hobbies and activities. and THAT is what put me into a MLC. I got the attention from someone else (not a man mind you) because I was not getting it from HIM. When we adopted our daughter, it was "ok she has a kid now so she's happy" and his life went on and has continued to do so til this day.
I have been working very hard with a psychologist to figure out what happen and why and as much as I blamed myself ENTIRELY 5 months ago, I no longer blame only myself. Our marriage broke down because of both of us.
I love him, I always have and he told me he loved me, right up until I found out about OW. I miss him and still want to be a family again but my daughter is my priority and always has been and always will be.
"and the reasons for me leaving are much more clear to me now. I did feel at the time of posting that I did "abandon" my daughter but that is not the case and I have been working with a therapist to see that that is simply not true. I felt that way because of the emotional stress I was under and the guilt that I felt."
See that's what you don't understand. Even though YOU came up with a revelation of why you did what you did, it doesn't do any good to the people who were on the receiving end of your actions.
"He was a father when he was FORCED to be a father and I do not mean that to sound harsh but that is the reality."
That is YOUR understanding. Men and women interpret things differently. I'm sure he did things for and with your D that were important to him but you didn't notice or don't think they were important because they weren't important to you. That's just the reality of all relationships.
"But he could have told me he was done and was moving on instead of telling me he loved me and would wait for me while I worked through my issues all the while seeing OM behind my back."
No he probably was honest with you. But as time went on and his needs weren't being met then he saw someone else. I mean did you meet any of his needs while you were in MLC without argument or being huffy about it? Again, just being devil's advocate.
"I no longer blame only myself. Our marriage broke down because of both of us."
True. But you were the one who checked out first. If you went out with other people and told him that he needed to stay home to watch your D while you were out doing your own thing, it is selfish and not fair.
"His priorities are OW, his jobs and his hobbies and activities. and THAT is what put me into a MLC. "
Your timeline seems to be jumping around. Did he have the OW before or during your MLC? And to be clear, it's not his hobbies, jobs or activities that put you in MLC. You put yourself in MLC. There's always a solution or a positive side of things. It just depends if someone chooses to focus on the negative rather than the positive. It's why so many marriages break up over time.
I do understand that the why I did what I did does not make up for what I did, I really do understand that. I am incredibly remorseful and regretful for what I did and I intend to spend the right of my life making amends for it. I love him and I respect him very much but I do not respect what he is doing now and what he is doing to our daughter.
That is not my understanding of how he was as a father that is the reality. Again I do not want to sound mean against him but it is the truth. He really did not do anything with our daughter unless it was with me as well, never on his own. And in 5 months where he is now supposed to be a "single" father, he has not been at all. In 5 months he has never even taken our daughter outside of our home. there is a very good chance he did not bond with her after the adoption.
No he was not honest with me. I didn't even know at the time I was not meeting his needs because he did not tell me until after I found out about OW. We went out together, slept in the same bed, had sex, told each other we loved each other, (from me it was more I do love you but something is wrong, something is missing) We were living as a couple, I thought we were reconciling and coming back together. I honestly honestly did.
I did not tell him he "needed" to stay home and in fact he didnt. alot of times when I went out my daughter came with me, and when she did stay home with him, he took her to a babysitter, which I only found out about a few weeks ago. I really don't know if I checked out first now or not. Not based on everything I have gone over with my therapist. I did definitely check out though, that I will never deny. But he was the one who was out doing his own thing and me being home with D when she came along.
OW came into the picture in July as far as I know but now I am hearing she has been around alot longer I just don't know if it is true. So no, she did not come into the picture before my MLC, but close to the end of it. There are many factors which led to the MLC but I 100% agree with you that they were my choices and I chose wrong and that I will have to live with. But now he is doing the same thing.
"I am incredibly remorseful and regretful for what I did and I intend to spend the right of my life making amends for it."
That's good.
"I love him and I respect him very much but I do not respect what he is doing now and what he is doing to our daughter."
That's your right to just as much as it's his right to have resented you when you were going through your MLC. Just to be clear, he's not doing this to your D. What's happening to your D is a result of your bad M. It doesn't make him a bad person and he's not doing it purposely to hurt your D.
"That is not my understanding of how he was as a father that is the reality."
See? It's YOUR understanding. You had a picture of what a father should be and he probably had his own. You had expectations. He doesn't need to live under your expectations any more than you would want to live under his.
"He really did not do anything with our daughter unless it was with me as well, never on his own."
Doesn't make him a bad father. It could very well be that he wanted it to be a "family" thing. I often invited my W along to things she didn't want to do because I wanted believed it was important to do things together as a family unit. My W didn't agree.
"And in 5 months where he is now supposed to be a "single" father, he has not been at all."
To him he is single. He's moving on.
"In 5 months he has never even taken our daughter outside of our home. there is a very good chance he did not bond with her after the adoption."
Possibly, but you're not his therapist.
"No he was not honest with me."
I think he was afraid to because you told him that you were going through something and was more interested in yourself at the time. He might have thought that to you his needs didn't matter.
"I didn't even know at the time I was not meeting his needs because he did not tell me until after I found out about OW."
You didn't need to "know". If you went out on your own and did your own thing, it's kind of obvious that that is what is going to happen.
"We went out together, slept in the same bed, had sex, told each other we loved each other, (from me it was more I do love you but something is wrong, something is missing)"
That's your interpretation. He probably saw something else. Again if the two of you never really talked about what you were going through this is what happens, instead things were swept under the rug,
"So no, she did not come into the picture before my MLC, but close to the end of it."
Okay so your can't include the OW as one of the factors for your MLC.
"But now he is doing the same thing."
Which is in his right to do so just as much as it was your right to go out with other people during your MLC. When you were out he might have imagined you with other guys. I know I would have if it were my W. So with you going out and then coming home to make love to him, etc. it could sound like cake eating to him.
Again, don't mean to belabor the point but all of this has to be understood before you know what to do and how to act around him.
All valid points and I appreciate a mans POV. So if you were me what would you do and how would act around him? Is there any chance at all that my marriage can be saved at this point?
Sure. There's always a chance.
What is it that he sees in OW that you think he finds attractive?
I have to think that she "boosts his ego". This is what he himself told me she does for him. She makes him feel good about himself, makes him feel wanted. She took an interest in one of his hobbies and they also work together.
The other thing I think too is our home is hectic - a 5 year old and 2 dogs. Where they live its probably neat and tidy and quiet and he can relax more. Does that make sense?
He just sent me an email after he deposited money into my account for the bills. It said "no you didn't get a raise, I put money in your account" which I thought was funny. My instinct is to respond with a funny comment. But I haven't responded at all yet.
He is also is coming to "hang out for a bit" tomorrow night.
"I have to think that she "boosts his ego". This is what he himself told me she does for him. She makes him feel good about himself, makes him feel wanted."
How have you tried to make him feel that way without telling him?
"She took an interest in one of his hobbies and they also work together."
Have you ever tried doing this?
"The other thing I think too is our home is hectic - a 5 year old and 2 dogs."
Whose idea was it to get the dogs? What can you do to make things seem less hectic and less cluttered?
"Where they live its probably neat and tidy and quiet and he can relax more. Does that make sense?"
Yes but you can make your home that way too.
"He just sent me an email after he deposited money into my account for the bills. It said "no you didn't get a raise, I put money in your account" which I thought was funny. My instinct is to respond with a funny comment. But I haven't responded at all yet."
don't. Just say 'I'm having lunch with a friend right now. Thanks'.
"He is also is coming to "hang out for a bit" tomorrow night."
What kind of an impression can you leave with him while he's there?
How have you tried to make him feel that way without telling him?
- I'm not sure I have. Doesn't that go against DB principles? But in my sitch I don't think they apply, very confusing. I have asked him to do things around the house, paid attentive and have been responsive when he tells me things. What else can I do without words? I've expressed myself and my remorse through words and my actions I think. But I'm not around him a lot now.
Whose idea was it to get the dogs? What can you do to make things seem less hectic and less cluttered?
- we both love dogs, well he lives with a cat now. I can and do keep the house as clean as possible esp when I know he is coming. I don't know how to make it less hectic. I have been taking very good care of the house while he has been gone, even shovelling our 200 foot driveway and painting and rearranging stuff. It has to go up for sale soon (unless he was to come home)
Have you ever tried doing this?
- I can't, not while she's going with him. Its a very specific hobby, skeet shooting. I would love to try but it would be too obvious and I can't just show up.
don't. Just say 'I'm having lunch with a friend right now. Thanks'.
- wouldn't that be rude or "uncaring" when I should be showing him I care? This is where the db stuff gets me. Why would I say this? What would this type of response do? I would rather just not reply. (And its supper time where I am :))
What kind of an impression can you leave with him while he's there?
- that I care about him and our daughter? That he interests me. That I am happy and content and D and I are getting along just find without him? I'm not sure, very confused.
"How have you tried to make him feel that way without telling him?
- I'm not sure I have. Doesn't that go against DB principles?"
No. DBing is about doing what works. And what you've been doing hasn't worked.
"But in my sitch I don't think they apply, very confusing."
Not really. You're just not supposed to actively pursue him.
"I have asked him to do things around the house,"
Asking for chores isn't the same as VALUING him as a man.
"paid attentive and have been responsive when he tells me things."
Every now and then drop a nice comment about what he's doing. You don't have to do it ALL the time. Just slightly show that what he does is appreciated.
"What else can I do without words? I've expressed myself and my remorse through words and my actions I think. But I'm not around him a lot now."
That's not what I meant. I mean how have you told him he's doing a good job at something. That his actions are appreciated? That's how he wants to feel and is what he's getting from the OW.
"Whose idea was it to get the dogs? What can you do to make things seem less hectic and less cluttered?
- we both love dogs, well he lives with a cat now. I can and do keep the house as clean as possible esp when I know he is coming. I don't know how to make it less hectic."
Get rid of all clutter. Make the home spacious and inviting. Re-arrange the furniture or put up new pictures or paint. something that shows its new.
"Have you ever tried doing this?
- I can't, not while she's going with him. Its a very specific hobby, skeet shooting. I would love to try but it would be too obvious and I can't just show up."
I meant before. Have you ever shown an interest and tried to participate in what he's doing?
"don't. Just say 'I'm having lunch with a friend right now. Thanks'.
- wouldn't that be rude or "uncaring" when I should be showing him I care?"
How would this be interepreted as "uncaring"? He made a deposit and that's that. You thank him for what he did and to add a little mystery to show that you're not dependent on him, you add the lunch part.
"This is where the db stuff gets me. Why would I say this?"
You're just being polite. nothing more nothing less.
"What would this type of response do? I would rather just not reply. (And its supper time where I am :))"
REply so that you don't seem rude. Then just say you're in the middle of something. DON'T leave him with the impression that you're at home pining for him.
"What kind of an impression can you leave with him while he's there?
- that I care about him and our daughter? That he interests me. That I am happy and content and D and I are getting along just find without him?"
No I mean actions. What SPECIFIC actions can you do that will leave him with a positive impression? One suggestion would be to make yourself as physically attractive as possible while he's there. He may not react to it, but it will help to boost your self-esteem. Then again he might start seeing what he's missing. Do something different to show him that the situation is NOT the same as before.
I guess I'm just not sure what kinds of things I can comment on. When he comes here, he sits on the couch and that's about it. If he does things while he is hear, in the past I have always said thank you and follow up with an email to say thank you and that I appreciate it. When he talks about his work and his shooting hobby, I could tell him how well he is doing. He is really good at it and his job. But should I initiate conversations? If I could I can show interest but unless I start a convo, he doesn't really talk too much, sometimes, but not often. Can I ask him to do things like shovel to show that he is needed? I really can't think of any actions that he is doing right now that I appreciate, putting the money in the bank on time?
I've definitely shown an interest up to the point where it was starting to interfere with our relationship because his hobbies were getting more time than me and D. I've never gone tho (I am afraid of guns). And now I don't really know when he goes since he doesn't live here.
Well I didn't reply cause I wasn't sure if I should or not and now its been a few hours since he sent it so it would be odd if I responded now. So I should respond to all emails? I was told not to as part of db-ing.
Specific actions while he is here in my mind would be to look good, be happy, attentive, be nice and make conversation and get him up off the couch and doing things with D and I. Or would that be too much? I've been trying to give him and D space when he is here so am usually in another room or in the garage. One time he came, right after he first moved out, we played a few games together the 3 of us. It was nice and it was fun (and my idea). But then am I "forcing" or making him be a father and would that hurt me in the long run? He said to me "I make/made him a family man".
I really appreciate your feedback.
"I guess I'm just not sure what kinds of things I can comment on."
Think back to when the two of you were first dating. What type of things did you compliment him on? Don't go overboard just a nice thing here and there. For example "I like that shirt you have on" or "I was thinking of hiring a handyman (for something) I'm not sure though. You did a great job doing it I'd hate to have it not be the same". Or whatever.
"When he comes here, he sits on the couch and that's about it."
Then do something like maybe cook something and ask him to join you or cook something new and ask him "hey I'm trying a new recipe, and I need a second opinion."
"If he does things while he is hear, in the past I have always said thank you and follow up with an email to say thank you and that I appreciate it."
Just once thank you while he's there is enough.
"When he talks about his work and his shooting hobby, I could tell him how well he is doing. He is really good at it and his job."
Sounds good. He probably didn't get much of that in the past.
"But should I initiate conversations?"
That's up to you. No harm in doing so as long as you don't expect a response.
"Can I ask him to do things like shovel to show that he is needed?"
No. That doesn't show that he's "needed". That just shows that you need something done and don't want to do it himself.
"I really can't think of any actions that he is doing right now that I appreciate, putting the money in the bank on time?"
That's why you tell him 'thanks'.
"I've definitely shown an interest up to the point where it was starting to interfere with our relationship because his hobbies were getting more time than me and D."
But they were important to him.
"I've never gone tho (I am afraid of guns). And now I don't really know when he goes since he doesn't live here."
Well now it's too late, but you should have been more involved more in the past. Keep that in mind.
"Well I didn't reply cause I wasn't sure if I should or not and now its been a few hours since he sent it so it would be odd if I responded now."
Why? It's just a thank you. Two simple words. If you can't show him simple gratitude for that, then it's no wonder why he didn't feel valued.
"So I should respond to all emails? I was told not to as part of db-ing."
No one said you had to answer all emails. Just the ones that require a response or a measure of gratitude.
"Specific actions while he is here in my mind would be to look good, be happy, attentive, be nice and make conversation"
That's fine.
"and get him up off the couch and doing things with D and I."
No. Get him to see the fun you are having. You can ask him if he would like to join you but don't do anything physical or push him into joining you.
"Or would that be too much? I've been trying to give him and D space when he is here so am usually in another room or in the garage."
You don't have to give him anything. Don't run away from it. Stay in the room if you want to.
"One time he came, right after he first moved out, we played a few games together the 3 of us. It was nice and it was fun (and my idea)."
It may have been your "idea", but it was HIS choice to participate.
"But then am I "forcing" or making him be a father and would that hurt me in the long run? He said to me "I make/made him a family man"."
Don't overthink this. you can't force him to be anything he doesn't want to be.
"I really appreciate your feedback."
That's what we're here for. Just build yourself up and stay strong. There is another author Joe Beam who is another great read and is line with Michelle's DB philosophy. Another marriage resource to cover if you don't have a coach.
Think back to when the two of you were first dating. What type of things did you compliment him on? Don't go overboard just a nice thing here and there. For example "I like that shirt you have on" or "I was thinking of hiring a handyman (for something) I'm not sure though. You did a great job doing it I'd hate to have it not be the same". Or whatever.
- I do do those type of things somewhat. Tell him his shirt looks nice on him, I ask for his advice on things. I think I can do better tho.
Then do something like maybe cook something and ask him to join you or cook something new and ask him "hey I'm trying a new recipe, and I need a second opinion."
- I bought a new rib sauce recipe, ribs are his favourite. Could I ask him to help me make them? I just know he is coming around 6pm tonight, should I email him and ask him if he would like to have supper?
But they were important to him.
- yes I know and that is why I supported him. But spending time with HIM was important to me and those things always interfered.
Why? It's just a thank you. Two simple words. If you can't show him simple gratitude for that, then it's no wonder why he didn't feel valued.
- I always have thanked him for everything. Its just now I'm confused about responding to emails. I will send him a thank you note this morning.
No. Get him to see the fun you are having. You can ask him if he would like to join you but don't do anything physical or push him into joining you.
- ok, I understand this. If D and I are playing a game, I always ask if he wants to play too, I don't "push" him.
You don't have to give him anything. Don't run away from it. Stay in the room if you want to.
- I try to just go about mine and D's daily routine. But I worry about looking like a "gatekeeper" or that I'm interfereing with his parenting time. Its his choice to come here to see D and not take her anywhere but I still do not want to interfere.
"- I do do those type of things somewhat. Tell him his shirt looks nice on him, I ask for his advice on things. I think I can do better tho."
Then do it.
"I bought a new rib sauce recipe, ribs are his favourite. Could I ask him to help me make them?"
No. Show him that you are doing it and don't need his help. You have to start showing him some independence like the OW.
"I just know he is coming around 6pm tonight, should I email him and ask him if he would like to have supper?"
No. Just be in the middle of cooking and if he wants to join in, he can. You can ask him to taste it while you're cooking.
"But spending time with HIM was important to me and those things always interfered."
Why? You could have participated in them with him then you would have both been happy. See that's what he has with the OW.
"- I try to just go about mine and D's daily routine. But I worry about looking like a "gatekeeper" or that I'm interfereing with his parenting time."
Don't worry about all of this. You're there, it's your home, you don't do anything out of the ordinary. When you leave it's like you're forcing them to be together. You said that he was more comfortable doing things together, then do it. While he's there and playing with your D, why not take a photo of them doing it? Then you can send it to him later.
What this situation has done is made you second-guess everything. Just be yourself with the DB plan in mind.
Don't forget to make yourself look great and you're on your way.
No. Show him that you are doing it and don't need his help. You have to start showing him some independence like the OW.
- I do show independance, I think. I don't ask him for help but I do ask for advice. How else would I show indepedence? I don't go out a lot now because I have our daughter full time and I don't hang around the people I hung around before because I consider them "toxic" friends. And to be honest, my daughter is my number one priority.
And I'm not sure OW is independent. I have a friend who knows her and she seems very needy and is always looking for reassurance. So I'm not sure.
So he came, hung out and then left. It wasn't a bad visit, I was polite and we had some good conversations. I complimented him on his jacket and his job and listened with care as he was telling me about how screwed up things were.
But then a new turn of events this morning. D told me this morning she asked him last night and he told her "probably not". I didn't know she asked him this, she told me this morning and She was very sad this morning. So I called him and asked him what he wanted to do and that I felt D needed more structure. It was a very good conversation, only about D. In the end, we agreed that he would come here for supper tuesday nights and to start, he would take D to his mothers house every second saturday night for a sleepover. He does not want to introduce D to OW for at least a year. So as much as he's not been involved with D since the start of this, I can't keep watching our D have her hopes up and then crushed whenever he comes here.
OW is most likely very needy and jealous. She's dating a married man, so she needs constant reassurance that he won't leave her for someone else. And she is trying to prove to him that she's better than you.
You, on the other hand, do not need to compete with OW. You just need to GAL and become the best person you can be, for yourself. Think about what your H liked about you when you met, and if you still like those things about you, go back to becoming more of that person.
You may want to check out the articles on the hero's spouse website. The author calls the OW the "alienator" and talks about how she's constantly worried that the man will leave her, so she will act very needy. She was probably like that before or she wouldn't be willing to even date a man who is still married.
I re-read the articles last night and felt a lot better about my sitch. I may not save my M, but I can understand why my H is with a girl who can't hold a candle to me.
Thanks for the info. What is the website you are referring to?
When he told me he didn't want to introduce OW to D for a year I asked him "so you think she is in your life for good". He said he didn't know, right now they were getting along fine and everything was "great". I felt like a knife went through my heart
I don't think I can post a link, but just google "the hero's spouse" and you'll find the links.
The site also mentions that spouses will often realize that the OW isn't right for them, but they don't want to fail at another relationship and it's easier to stay in that one than to try again with the S, at least at that moment.
Even though my H has told me that she's using him, he keeps taking her back and has told me that he wants to "give her a chance" and try to make it work.
I don't remember in your sitch how long your H has been with OW, but usually it's all fun and games. They don't have to worry about bills, chores, or any grown up stuff. They don't have kids together and she doesn't worry about him spending too much money because it's not her money.
Ok thanks, I will google.
He's been with her for at least 5 months now, not really sure when the EA started. He says they get along great so I don't think he thinks its not going to work.
He's been living with her for 2 months now. He doesn't pay rent there because he still has to pay for all the household bills at our home. He told me he feels bad for that and buys his own groceries. He said he is working on the weekends to do so.
It sounds like they have a very "simple" relationship and he always said he wants a simple life.
Very scary to me.
I don't want to give up on him
As hard as it is, you have to try to forget about H and what he's doing right now. Even if he and OW break up, it doesn't mean that he'll be ready to work on things with you. If he is in MLC, it could take him quite awhile to work on his issues.
That's not saying that you're giving up on him, just that you realize that you can't fix him and have to concentrate on yourself and your child.
The website I told you about has quite a bit of info on MLC and about how long and painful it can be.
You need to be the best person and mom that you can be. That's the whole point of DBing. And if you and H get back together, then that's a great bonus, but you can't control that, at least not right now.
WOW - For my husband, lots of great advice here. I'm googling the website mentioned here also.
I started a new thread on newcomers for myself "Huge Mistake, What do I do now?" I thought I was doing so good, but I made a huge fatal mistake, talking about OW. I am so hurt by this (not the failing of our marriage, but just the lost trust) that I have said a consistant message about our situation and it's hurtful to H. He called me on it and I honestly can say after days of self reflection ... he was right to call me on it. So, I'm afraid that I've messed anything that might have been left of mine and H's relationship.
My H threw at me that his and OW's relationship started out as "just chatting on the phone" and he doesn't see it as an EA. I did call him on that, saying when you text someone that much, it's an affair, regardless of it being physical or not. AND the fact they are living together ... safe a bedroom ... it is now a full blow affair - although didn't say that. I just keep telling him YOU ARE LIVING WITH ANOTHER WOMAN and YOU ARE STILL MARRIED. Does that not mean anything?
FMH, I am glad you are trying have set a schedule. I think it will help DD. My DD asked me this weekend if it would make me sad if she has a room at H's house. That is what has all these feeling stirred up in me. She went to his new house and told me about it, I acted interested, but didn't ask a lot of questions other than asking if she met OW. I also told her it does make me sad, but the only reason I told H she couldn't be around OW was because what H is doing is wrong. He is married and living with someone that is not his wife. It is just wrong. Morally wrong. Period. I feel like my daughter is going to be jaded because of this situation anyways, but I don't want her to 1)ever be the OW in a situation and 2)don't want her to think it's okay because her Dad did it. I am so scared as to what DD will do in her own married life.
For those reading this post (since obiviously mine was too long for anyone to respond) Are FMH and I wrong to try and hold on to our marriages? I'm riding the fence on filing. I don't want H to think I'm okay with it because I'm not, but I don't want to hold onto something when its obivious that there is nothing we can do? And is it EVER okay to tell WAS that the door is always open? I want H to know that I could forgive him in time, if I knew he was sincere about wanting to reconcile. But how do you let WAS know that?
Hi NSW2D: can you send me a PM?
As a FWS (former Wayward Spouse), I need to rebuild trust and show him that I am the person he loved. I really don't think the DB-ing techniques are for my situation. I was the one who screwed up initially and I need to make amends for that.
I have made the decision to stand for my relationship as painful as this is going to be. I will continue to work on myself and take care of our D to make sure she is happy and content and safe.
I need to be pro-active, transparent and attentive, and some DB-ing techniques go against this. I have to figure out what is best for my situation. I am seeking a pro-marriage counsellor who can help me through this process of not only trying to save my marriage but to also help me rebuild myself.
"I really don't think the DB-ing techniques are for my situation."
Yes they are. You just don't understand them well enough.
"I was the one who screwed up initially and I need to make amends for that."
Regardless of what you've done in the past, you're trying to save things now. It's the same as everyone else here.
"I have made the decision to stand for my relationship as painful as this is going to be. I will continue to work on myself and take care of our D to make sure she is happy and content and safe."
Perfect.
"I need to be pro-active, transparent and attentive, and some DB-ing techniques go against this. I have to figure out what is best for my situation. "
No not necessarily, but the issue is that he's with OW because he didn't trust you before. First thing DBing teaches is to get rid of the negatives in the M that your spouse was against. Which is what you seem to be doing. What you need to do next is to live like that so it becomes habit. Then you start rebuilding attraction but not in a way that is "in your face" to your H.
FMH, I can't. It ssays private messages are disabled. Check your prefrences under "My Stuff". Mine is set to "accept private messages".
Ok, time to start over then. I know absolutely what I did wrong in the marriage and I have been working extremely hard to "right my wrongs" so to speak.
I completely understand what you are telling me but how do I deal with this on a day to day basis. I question EVERYTHING! My biggest concern is around what type of contact I should have with H? One of the negatives in our M was I did not pay enough attention to him. Now, as much as I want to, he doesnt want me to. but I don't want to push him further away by being distant and cold.
My brain tells me to make sure he knows that I love him and miss him and how sorry I am. Ive even written him another letter, this will be number 3.
He doesnt ask much about "me" anymore but I am going to be proactive and tell him things so he knows im not hiding anything from him. Im also going to start answering the phone if he calls for D so he can hear my voice and I will be happy and cheerful.
Its the day to day stuff I need help with.
No worries NotSure, I was trying to figure out the same thing
"My brain tells me to make sure he knows that I love him and miss him and how sorry I am. Ive even written him another letter, this will be number 3."
Stop doing this. You're acting too clingy. He knows what your feelings are. Just let it lie.
How do I "just let it be"?
By going back to the fundamentals of DB. No frequent calls, no acting desperate, etc. You already made it clear that you are interested in saving your M. Keep the changes going so that when he is around he can see the changes in you.
He's "popping by for a bit" tonight. I don't know how long he is staying or anything. What should I do? He will probably be there before I get home from work.
I understand the "180s" are for me. They are to help me stand on my own two feet and be a better person with our without him.
How do I balance the 180s for ME but also "do the opposite" of what I did in my relationship?
Does that make sense?
I'm in the same boat--I was cold and distant in the M and I'm concerned that going dark and distancing will push him away. I tend to think a push/pull approach may work better. Since I'm the one that asked for the separation and told him to leave it's doubtful that he will ask to come back. That's not his personality. I think he will admit to wanting to reconcile only after I bring it up.
We've been apart for a month. I've contacted 4 times through email and IM. He's been very receptive but didn't initiate. He told me he is hurting. He also made it known that he is working on his spiritual life (my big complaint that made him leave).
Still trying to figure out how to work on me.
I know, its very confusing
I know I have to let go, but I miss him and love him so much. But I'm losing hope more and more every day. He is still very very angry at me, said his life is miserable and I'm to blame for everything. But hey, at least its not "indifference".
He hasn't had a chance to miss me yet...maybe he will maybe he won't. But I know I need to 180 for myself and for our D. But I also don't want to push him further away.
Is there an OW in your sitch that you know of?
I shouldn't have hope anymore but I still do.
H has now retained a lawyer and is wanting to finalize our division of assets and custody agreement for D. He said he "just wants this settled"
I'm at a loss as to what to do. I really don't want to give up. I'm making solid progress on my own issues and D is happy and adjusted to the situation. I've backslided on the 180s and NC and have written H a few "pleading" emails, asking for a second chance.
D and I are still in our family home and will be til at least end of June. I just don't see how I can give up hope until then. I've asked him to at least try to make our M work until then. I know that is wrong and against DB-ing but I'm at a loss as to what to do. I don't think 6 months is too much to ask for after 15 years and a child together. I keep thinking that my words will reach him, eventually.
All that is pressure and only serves to make him press back.
Stop the resistance, live your life, keep working on yourself and let him worry about the D.
I'm not sure what "giving up" means to you. Can you explain?
I know its pressure when I send him emails but I just want him to know I still care for him and love him regardless of all the crap going on. In a way, I feel like I am making up for not showing him in the past that I did love him. I want him to know he has the option and chance to save our family and future, to try and help him see the negative things that can happen that he obviously cannot see. I know, its stupid of me but its how my brain is working right now.
I don't know what giving up means either. I guess it means getting angry, letting go, to stop caring about hurting him and moving forward into a new relationship and allow another man into D's life. Right now I'm scared to fight what I feel is rightfully mine in the division of our assets and home and what I feel is in the best interest of D. Because if I fight against him for what I think it is right, I'm afraid it will ruin any chance that he will want to come home.
The first paragraph is all about what you want, not what he wants. You've told him all those things, I'm sure he gets it, now let him go.
And the second paragraph-jeesh, you went from undying love for H to a new R in 1 sentence. Slow down.
You need to figure you out before you decide a new R will fix things.
Right now I'm scared to fight what I feel is rightfully mine in the division of our assets and home and what I feel is in the best interest of D. Because if I fight against him for what I think it is right, I'm afraid it will ruin any chance that he will want to come home.
This is not DBing, this is game playing. Do you have a L? If so he/she should be able to make sure you get what is fair.
No, I don't want any new relationship, but I have to eventually not keep giving him my heart. Right now its his and his alone, always has been. I guess I just don't think I can "officially" move on until it is no longer his as that is what he did. He's willing to let OW into D's life and I'm not willing to do that but know unless he comes back, that will happen and I don't want that to happen.
I do have a L but what H is proposing is not fair but I think I should just give in because its what he wants and I won't pi@@ him off by fighting him.
I don't know how to "let go" and just focus soley on me. I have been doing good I think, I'm working through my self esteem issues and taking care of myself and D, she's doing really well and adjusting well, but he's always on my mind, and trying to "fix this" is always on my mind.
I do have a L but what H is proposing is not fair but I think I should just give in because its what he wants and I won't pi@@ him off by fighting him.
And what if he doesn't come back, will you be OK with this then?
No I won't be ok with it, which is why its so confusing.
Do I just accept that he is gone for good? Is that how to let go?
Protect yourself and your daughter. Stop pursuing. He knows you love him and want him back. He knows he has that "option". You neediness is pushing him away.
Stop making all your decisions based on what you think he wants, will work on getting him back, or will not p!ss him off.
You must act as if he's gone. That does not mean you are angry towards him or unkind. It just means you continue with your life in the best way that is good for you and your D.
I told him, just this morning, that I will continue to be here for him and do what I can to support him and show him that I will always love him while D and I are living in our family home. We will be here for at least another 5 months. I just don't see any progress while we still live here.
So for the next 5 months my plan is to continue to keep working on myself, exercising and sleeping more, try to adjust to being by myself (I don't have a lot of friends and have D 13 days out of 14), and working through my codependency issues with IC. I am going to let the lawyer iron things out but again all decisions cannot be made while we are in our family home.
Stop telling him. Telling him many times will only make him close his ears more. This is probably just "more of the same" for him.
Why can't things be decided while still in the home?
Why do you have your D 12 days out of 14?
I know its "more of the same". I feel so stupid. I'm making a vow right now, no more emails.
Because the division of assets includes the profit from the home selling and without knowing what that profit is at this time, I cannot know what a fair division is. He doesn't see it that way and is making assumptions on what the value of the house and assets are.
H began with OW over 5 months ago and moved in with her over 2 months ago. When this began, he also stopped spending time with D as well. And when he moved out, he did without any type of arrangement or schedule. He pops in every once in a while during the week. After the new year, D was still asking him when he was coming home, so I asked him to start taking D overnight away from our home to help her adjust and he agreed to take her every second Saturday night so that is what our current arrangement is. He does not take her to OW house, but to his mothers house.
Keep a journal of when he sees her.
Don't feel stupid, just don't do it.
I am keeping a journal, I have been since this started of everything that happens. I think its part of the reason I am so conflicted because he really is being an a@@ as a father but yet I still love him and want him to come home and feel that this OW and the life he is living with her is affecting not only him returning but his abilities as a father. I don't think he would be the way he is now if he was just willing to work on our M. People think I'm an idiot for still wanting him after all of this, some days I think the same thing. I just feel that 15 years and a child together is not something to throw away and is worth saving.
No more emails about "us". I do have to email him today to ask him to come back out to plow the driveway.