First link
http://http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2273448&page=1
Second link
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279565&page=1Update since last post --
Friday -- Got dresssed for the concert (looked good too). W decided to take the kids to see a movie instead of the other activity (wait for me). Before leaving, W said she wished I was going with them, that we were better. She hugged me, I made an impulsive ILY statement. Fortunately, she responded with the same ILY as well. Had a great time at the concert.
Saturday -- W initiated R talk. Several ways that she realizes she has done wrong. How she has been hurt by OM (not real specific details --didn't want it). How she realizes how good I am and misses me and a lot of good stuff. We have a good day with the kids and what not. Later that night, we sit down to watch a movie. I see her texting. I get up and leave. She pursues, apologizes, asks me to come back. I do.
Sunday -- W very pleasant and nice. I clean the carpets (still trying to potty train the puppy), she ends up going to her room. Not a nap, as she came down about an hour later sobbing confessing how depressed she is and bad thoughts that she has had. Stabilize her. We all go to a bookstore. We all have fun together. Except now D11 is evidently freaking out and not wanting us to work things out ??? And yes, W had said she wants to eventually try to work things out. We briefly discuss having wants / needs from each other for a better relationship. Later on that night before bedtime, she thanks me for a good day / w/e. I mentioned the "need" thing. I say I "need" her to help fix me (related to a song); and she closes her FB page where OM's family is there. I tell her, I want us to be FB friends again and that she eventually have to "clean up her page," get rid of OM and family. Like she did to me and my family. She reacts, shutdowns, blah blah. I think I poked the turtle and made her go back into her shell. We did each fortunately apologize via text before going to sleep.
This morning, I get ready to leave for work (she and the kids are off), and she invites me into her bed and we snuggle /cuddle for a few minutes with lighthearted talk (more apologies, hope that things can work, but she doesn't want to get my hopes up to hurt me, that touching each other doesn't feel normal).
So that's where I have been / am at.
Confusion stage of piecing???
Not sure, any more guidance in maneuvering / responding to W and now D11 would be appreciated.
First link
http://http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2273448&page=1
Second link
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279565&page=1Update since last post --
Friday -- Got dresssed for the concert (looked good too). W decided to take the kids to see a movie instead of the other activity (wait for me). Before leaving, W said she wished I was going with them, that we were better. She hugged me, I made an impulsive ILY statement. Fortunately, she responded with the same ILY as well. Had a great time at the concert.
Saturday -- W initiated R talk. Several ways that she realizes she has done wrong. How she has been hurt by OM (not real specific details --didn't want it). How she realizes how good I am and misses me and a lot of good stuff. We have a good day with the kids and what not. Later that night, we sit down to watch a movie. I see her texting. I get up and leave. She pursues, apologizes, asks me to come back. I do.
Sunday -- W very pleasant and nice. I clean the carpets (still trying to potty train the puppy), she ends up going to her room. Not a nap, as she came down about an hour later sobbing confessing how depressed she is and bad thoughts that she has had. Stabilize her. We all go to a bookstore. We all have fun together. Except now D11 is evidently freaking out and not wanting us to work things out ??? And yes, W had said she wants to eventually try to work things out. We briefly discuss having wants / needs from each other for a better relationship. Later on that night before bedtime, she thanks me for a good day / w/e. I mentioned the "need" thing. I say I "need" her to help fix me (related to a song); and she closes her FB page where OM's family is there. I tell her, I want us to be FB friends again and that she eventually have to "clean up her page," get rid of OM and family. Like she did to me and my family. She reacts, shutdowns, blah blah. I think I poked the turtle and made her go back into her shell. We did each fortunately apologize via text before going to sleep.
This morning, I get ready to leave for work (she and the kids are off), and she invites me into her bed and we snuggle /cuddle for a few minutes with lighthearted talk (more apologies, hope that things can work, but she doesn't want to get my hopes up to hurt me, that touching each other doesn't feel normal).
So that's where I have been / am at.
Confusion stage of piecing???
Not sure, any more guidance in maneuvering / responding to W and now D11 would be appreciated.
I don't think that you are quite at piecing afa. Be careful here. She could still withdraw, and could still go back to OM. I hope that it doesn't happen to you, but it did to me... more than once.
My advice is to continue doing what you are doing. I would still be doing more listening than talking. She is not quite there yet, but seems to be moving in the right direction.
Let her know what you need from her if and when the time comes that she is ready to commit to working on the M. Communicate that to her, but don't argue with her about it. She will have doubts, fears, and concerns about doing some of those things, such as cleaning up her FB page. You state your position on it and then just listen to her.
Listening doesn't equate to giving in on the issue.
Same thing with your D. You need to listen to her when she expresses her feelings. Personally, I don't think that she should be brought into the situation until and unless you and your W have made the decision to commit to working on the M. When and if that time comes, then you sit down with her and explain it to her.
Have you thought about a child psychologist? There may be stuff going on here that you don't know about. Something worth considering.
To add a little more:
D11 is fearful of being "left out" and / or W being depressed if we work things out.
I am a bit ambivalent about where I am at. I fought so hard to be here, yet am wondering do I want to set myself up to get hurt any further. No risk, no gain? Is this a natural part of things?
W evidently had a rough day, as she asked me earlier if she could go to Zumba tonight with a friend. "I really need it (Zumba)" This is not her typical exercise day.
Jump in with some input please and thank you 8)
Thanks Denver. You seem to pop in when I need ya.
Neither of us said anything to D11. She unfortunately is a huge eavesdropper; and if W and I have any time together (convo or chit chat) she has to be there.
I'll keep on doing the same; and add more listening.
I obviously have the fear of her going back to OM. Cross your fingers she does not simply for her own sake.
I agree with Denver here. Take your time and continue doing what you are doing. She seems to be coming around but she is obviously still fearful. Don't scare her away. It's got to be at her pace.
Good luck mate.
Well it sounds like a fantastic conversation and some great progress, but like Denver and Arsene said, your best play at this point is to stick to the DB'ing. You should certainly celebrate the progress, but do it internally
Here's something great that Accuray posted that might help you understand how to react to these movements:
"Another thing to expect is that your wife will run "hot and cold" -- she'll be nice to you one minute and the next will shut down hard. This is extremely confusing. Here's what's going on -- your wife will "try on" being nice to you to see how it feels, or if she gets comfortable may slide back into a familiar partner role. At some point she'll catch herself, will worry that you'll get the impression that everything is now "okay" when for her it is not, and will then make sure to demonstrate to you that everything is NOT okay by shutting you out and pushing you away. That's all an inner dialog so to you it just looks completely confusing. If you expect it, you'll enjoy when she warms up and won't worry too much when she goes cold.
It's tempting to get into a mode of catastrophic thinking -- that each time your wife goes cold you worry it will stay like that forever, or "oh boy, this is it, she's gone!" That leads you to panic and overreact. This is a roller coaster, and there will be very dramatic highs and lows. The best thing you can do is try to stay near an emotional baseline. If the WAS bounces between 10 feet up and 10 feet down, the LBS tends to go 25 feet up and 25 feet down in response. Your goal is to go 5 feet up and 5 feet down instead. Take the long term view. Easy to say, hard to do, but if you know what to expect things get easier."
Thanks Arsene and AS.
The post from ACC makes sense.
During the convo's she has said she needs time to "let it go". This means OM, his family, etc. So more time for her.
Anger / reality crept in again last night at bedtime. Thoughts of the PA, not confirmed but most likely. Can I deal with that aspect? Do I want to continue to DB and "settle"? Is that a normal piece of this?
Also, as far as your wife will "try on" being nice to you to see how it feels, or if she gets comfortable may slide back into a familiar partner role
How does her statement of that touching each other doesn't feel normal fit? Par for the course or not?
Anger / reality crept in again last night at bedtime. Thoughts of the PA, not confirmed but most likely. Can I deal with that aspect? Do I want to continue to DB and "settle"? Is that a normal piece of this?
Absolutely. We spend so much time focusing on DB'ing and getting the spouse back that we neglect to come to grips with our spouse's part in the M's failings. I think deep inside we all expect we're not going to reconcile or that the chances are very small, so we don't deal with our spouse's issues. So when they do return, then we suddenly find ourselves unexpectedly dealing with issues we had shoved to the back of our minds. Trust is probably the biggest elephant in the room, especially if there was an EA/ PA. How can we trust that our spouse won't go back to an A? How can we trust they won't kick us to the curb again? These are serious and difficult issues. This is why most people advise moving slowly into piecing, and shifting the burden of work at least partially to the WAS. They're responsible for rebuilding trust issues because they were the ones that betrayed the trust.
How does her statement of that touching each other doesn't feel normal fit? Par for the course or not?
Yeah, that's "normal". The WAS spends so much time convincing themselves that they don't want to touch the LBS or be touched by them that returning to that can feel really strange and awkward. It's like they programmed themselves to be repulsed by the LBS, so turning back on to the LBS can be a slow process.
Amazing post AS. Really amazing.
Keep going afa75. I believe in YOU!
Also, as far as your wife will "try on" being nice to you to see how it feels, or if she gets comfortable may slide back into a familiar partner role
How does her statement of that touching each other doesn't feel normal fit? Par for the course or not?
Yup. Absolutely. And it may not come back so easily. You have to be VERY patient with her.
New tread and already so many posts! Great to see how we're all here for each other.
I agree with what everyone has said. I think the progress you have experienced is really fast, so this is why you must be cautious and take things slowly.
After my H's A was over, I thought I had gotten rid of the anger--for a day. Then it would come back two or threefold. Affairs are the hardest things to overcome in a M. I read it takes an average of three years to heal, and that's when the cheating S actually wants to save the M and says they would do whatever it takes to redeem themselves. So, you're not dealing with an easy sitch. The fear about working things out is normal. I experienced it too. When I felt my H was being nicer and that he wanted to get closer to me, a small voice in my head would tell me to stay away. I was afraid of going through the same pain again. So this is a risk you'll have to take. No need to decide on that yet. Keep doing what you're doing, and see small, positive changes happening.
I do think your M does have a good chance to be saved.
Yes in regards to loving all that wonderful support from everyone. I don't know where I'd be other than divorce court and / or a mental hospital if it wasn't for all of you and your support.
Other than standard DBing and taking things slow, any advice for what / how to further improve / prepare myself? You know, to gain better introspection / forgiveness / self development / ease the pain of allowing her to "let it go"?
Journaling / venting ???
Last night W and I are friendly and even a little flirtatious
at one point she shares and shows me that she has a new FB friend, an italian male metrosexual model. "He liked some of my photos, I liked some of his." WTF is this? A test or a total slap in my face? I played it off as cool and validated how that must be a nice "ego boost" Is this the next EA. Probably not a PA as he is actually in Italy. But seriously, WTH?
Shortly thereafter we were mutually doing a little laundry, and she slipped and called me "babe" First time she's said that in months. Her pet name for me.
She was into me, in the sense of caring as I wasn't feeling physically good (somewhat due to the FB thing), checking on me and making sure if I needed anything to ask her.
Anyways...feelings now consist of anger, bitterness, resentment, lack of caring in general (even the kids are not keeping me "grounded").
Off to work..oh, and I'm thinking of cancelling my IC appt on Friday, as I don't want to pay to feel bad. ???
Frustrated and confused.
Tough, isn't it? I guess you just have to stay detached as much as you can and remember that she is still in the fog. Maybe she was testing you with the FB Italian guy. Wanted to see how you'd react or make you jealous? Who knows? It is a mindf@#k.
Just don't waste time on it. It'll lead nowhere. Keep DBing and be patient.
Cheers
Ugh. I would be so angry, too. See your W for who she is now, a teenager rebelling against the fact that she's M. She might've been testing you, but subconsciously, so don't try to overanalyze it. This is what you can say next time: Wow, I never thought about checking models' profiles and making them my FB friends. Now that you've shown me, I'll have to do check that out. She will never mention the model again.
Totally hear you when you say you don't want to see the IC. They never helped me. Try to book an appt with Jody. She is worth the $$.
(((()))
Okay so here is a kick in the....wallet!
Don't here anything from W all day until I'm about to leave work. Several texts about how we are evidently overdrawn on our account and are broke. Great right? So that definitely outs a damper on Jody. Thoughts ob CXing IC appt? I have a 24 be so I still have time. He's a nice guy, but again, not sure how helpful he has been other than letting me vent. You all do that for free and offer better advice imo.
Other notes, so I come home, a bit numb and not really surprised about our bank accounts. We have always struggled with budgeting. Fortunately we each get paid the next or two. So we have a talk about money. I did all the bills. I let her know that I was expecting her to use all the accrue info I gave her weeks ago to take care if her stuff. To level the playing field financially and encourage her to participate. We all know she failed on that one. She now realizes that I wasn't being as controlling when it came to expenses. Also, I have asked for her help countless times, before the bomb, but never got it.
So reality hit her / us in the face. We talked more, and it ended up in a similar R convo that we've been having. Only exception is that I did let her know I felt done. Tired of the roller coaster and not hanging in for the sake I'd the kids or anything now. It is true (fir now) and jarred her a little.
We ended yet another convo with the same fears of returning to a bad M, her being depressed, blah blah.
What a wonderful day - note the sarcasm.
I'm okay, just not sure at the moment of what direction to take.
Going read a little and hope everyone has had / is having a good day / night.
Take it easy mate. This is where you wanted to be a few weeks ago. You spent all this time not focusing on the way you feel because you were so busy DBing and focusing on the way she felt. Now it's starting to hit you and maybe you're wondering if you're doing the right thing. There's a section on this in DR. Have a read (I'm at work now so I can't look it up for you). It says something about what happens to you when the pressure is off and you start getting in touch with your feelings. It talks about how you might end up having second thoughts about going through with it. IMO, that's where you are. It's not the time to give up now. Just take a breather and step back for a bit. As you said, you both get paid soon so the problem can be sorted. You can use this as a tool to get you two working together with a common goal, sorting out your finances.
Take care Afa,
It does sound tough, afa, but persevere. You're on the right path and you still need to DB like crazy. I know how hard it feels when you've been at it for a while. Don't forget that it's a marathon.
Hang in there.
You had such a rough day...
I see you questioning your decision to see the IC. I would hold off the visits until you feel like going--really feel it. I stuck with my IC forever and all he did was making me feel worse, and telling me to end my M. Waste of time and $$. But it's your decision.
I understand why you got frustrated with your W. But this is the process of her learning to take responsibility. It's a tough process, but failing is the way for her learn she needs to change her ways. I would limit the conv to finances and not to the R, though. Keep that in mind for next time...
((((()))))
Sorry if you've covered this but what is your counselor telling you that makes you not want to go back?
Arsene, Wendy, and Tori -- Thanks for the reminder to step back. I'll be looking for that section in the book. I know I need to refocus and get a second wind for this marathon.
Labug -- @ my last appt, I went in somewhat emotional (go figure huh?); and main things I heard him say were to be proAndrew, kick her out, don't let her treat me like sh*t, quit being so responsible go on a $1000.00 trip for myself. For whatever reason, a lot of his focus on me treating myself better is what literally sent chills down my spine. I don't know.
Anyways, I have decided that I am at least going to go to the appointment tomorrow for several reasons. To share with IC, that I felt bad about our last appointment, and to model we face our fears to W. Part of the convo last night was a mention of how the last appt didn't go so well for me / her fear of doing therapy.
So I think I've made it this far in the DB process, and I think I'm going to continue down this difficult path. Please continue to share and guide me along this way. 8)
Tongling positive thoughts to all (it normally works for me, so i'm going to do what works) 8)
Arsene, Wendy, and Tori -- Thanks for the reminder to step back. I'll be looking for that section in the book. I know I need to refocus and get a second wind for this marathon.
Labug -- @ my last appt, I went in somewhat emotional (go figure huh?); and main things I heard him say were to be proAndrew, kick her out, don't let her treat me like sh*t, quit being so responsible go on a $1000.00 trip for myself. For whatever reason, a lot of his focus on me treating myself better is what literally sent chills down my spine. I don't know.
Anyways, I have decided that I am at least going to go to the appointment tomorrow for several reasons. To share with IC, that I felt bad about our last appointment, and to model we face our fears to W. Part of the convo last night was a mention of how the last appt didn't go so well for me / her fear of doing therapy.
So I think I've made it this far in the DB process, and I think I'm going to continue down this difficult path. Please continue to share and guide me along this way. 8)
Tongling positive thoughts to all (it normally works for me, so i'm going to do what works) 8)
1. You need a new IC. Drop him.
2. Take some time for yourself. Tell your W that you need some space and some time to figure out what you want for your life. Do what you need to do to make that happen so that you can get your own fog cleared (one way or the other). Maybe you should take a trip by yourself. Even if it's out of town to visit family or friends.
3. Tell your W that you think that the FB thing is disrespectful to you. That it hurts your feelings. That she wouldn't like it if the roles were reversed. That your M definitely won't work if she is going to continue to have such inappropriate relationships. Do this calmly, politely, and with sincerity.
My 3 cents afa.
I agree with Denver on the IC. They're all pretty much the same, though. I saw three of them and got fed up of hearing pretty much what your IC told you.
Any chance you guys can see a MC instead?
I think your W alredy knows the FB model thing was disrespectful. If you focus on this, she'll get the attention she craves, and the cycle will continue.
Sending you good energy, Andrew.
I think your W alredy knows the FB model thing was disrespectful.
I somewhat agree with Tori here. But I do think that you need to make it clear that you won't be a part of a M that includes such behavior. As Tori (I believe) said in an earlier post, she's like a teenager who is rebelling (my W was definitely in this category at one point). Like any teenager, she needs to know what behavior is not acceptable.
Well I guess on the bright side of things, I did state that 3rd cent to W last night during our financial and then R convo.
Yay for me. Nearly verbatim Denver (and it was fairly calm).
I also agree that I need to clear my own fog again. Honestly, I think getting to where I am at, has created a new type of fog, one that is evidently natural for the DB process.
As far as MC...I wouldn't want that for her, me, or us right now. I know I have stuff to process. I'll give my IC one last chance (I'll have to pay regardless due to the CX notice policy -fee is pretty much as my copay). W has asked me for the phone number for her IC. Maybe she'll use it once I give it to her. Then somewhere down the line, we could do MC.
Sorry for jumping back and forth between your help Tori and Denver; and thanks as always.
I also agree that I need to clear my own fog again. Honestly, I think getting to where I am at, has created a new type of fog, one that is evidently natural for the DB process.
I'm personally happy to hear that you addressed the FB thing. For me, that couldn't go unaddressed. Nicely done too.
Yes. You need to figure out what you want afa. Don't let anything pressure you to go one way or another. It has to come from your heart. No one here will, or should, judge you if you decide that you no longer want to save your M.
But like you said, I think that it is part of the process.
Thank you Denver. It means a lot to me to get a compliment from you.
This site is the safest place for me to truly be me and share whatever it is. I don't fear judgement here. Ashamed the rest of the world and the people couldn't be as nice.
Mini update of today's events, nothing major aside from me recommitting to stick with the here and now, and DB.
NC from W all day. Come home, I'm fine, not great but good. We all have a "whatever" dinner tonight. Minor chit chat. She asks about her zumba outfits. Tried on several tops. She wore the one I said she looked best in. Before she leaves, she mentions she and her mom don't talk anymore; and that her aunt and cousin comment / like my FB items, but not hers. "I guess they choose you". Simply responded with the validation of "this is hard on all of us". Her face said it all that I was right. She really respects the aunt, so that has to hurt her some. Anyways, wished her a genuine food time at zumba once she left.
A "me" item. Part of problem is NC with friends past few days, so on my way home I made it a point to call one of my friends and keep the convo away from my sich.
Journaling
W came back from zumba happy. Her BFF called, actually for me, to ask a favor. No biggie so I agree and am happy. W does some kind of a dance move, I step up and dance back with her for a brief moment. I'm not a dancer so this surprised her.
I went to my gym, the basement, had a killer workout. My PMA is back.
Read and post a little on here then go to bed. I'm woke up by W who had came downstairs, climbed into bed, and cuddled me. Wow! It lead to a brief her / R convo where the OM thing is done, he's such a loser compared to me, she wants to get back to "normal". That she wants space, no dating, and to go out 1 night most weekends, not 2 b/c she misses our family and doesn't want to share. She actually said she was searching for happiness, and realizes that she had it all along. I listen and validate most everything. Sadly, she went back to her bed. This kind of something is better than nothing.
This morning she called to share excitement about a gift from a coworker. I matched it. A signed David Sedaris book. I go to my IC appt. It was a good one. He praised me for hanging in against the odds and respects what ice been doing. We switch focus to other areas such GAL items and ways to improve career. I left feeling good, because I entered feeling good.
So the good news is I regained my PMA w/o W's positivr interactions.
Hey mate! This sounds good to me. It's what we all want to hear from our Ws. Just keep it slow and let her move at her pace. Keep working on yourself in the meantime.
Cheers!
That's great news! Keep up the PMA! Remember to try to continue to detach. She could be doing the distance and pursue dance. Also her happiness comment makes it sound like she still thinks it is found in another person.
Not to sound weird but why does she need to go out all the time? That is raising a red flag with me. I mean it is okay if you are okay with it, I guess I wouldn't be comfortable with that though.
Thanks Arsene and MKB,
The original idea was we would alternate w/es of going and staying gone the entire w/e. So this is an improvement if she means it as its cut in half.
W had D11 at 19 and has had often commented that she missed her 20s / the "party time" where she thought happiness would be. Last night she said she realized she wasn't really missing anything. This is an explanation, not a defense or justification of her actions.
Thank you for the reminder of detach - distance / pursuit dance.
Also, as far as happiness in others, she being the WAW is the opposite of me the LBS. Each relying too much on others for happiness. Codependency displayed differently.
Thanks Arsene and MKB,
The original idea was we would alternate w/es of going and staying gone the entire w/e. So this is an improvement if she means it as its cut in half.
W had D11 at 19 and has had often commented that she missed her 20s / the "party time" where she thought happiness would be. Last night she said she realized she wasn't really missing anything. This is an explanation, not a defense or justification of her actions.
Thank you for the reminder of detach - distance / pursuit dance.
It's a huge amount of progress for the WAS to come up with on their own that they were not "missing out on anything".
This story continues to seem more positive. I'm happy for you.
Just keep doing the same things, notice the actions that work.
It sounds like her MA is getting more positive - I haven't read a negative text/call from her in awhile.
Follow her lead when she is with you, focus on you at other times.
Enjoy the weekend
Happy to read the positive updates. Yeah! I think you're doing great.
I'm also glad you felt better after your session with the IC.
Now, at some point when she is ready to commit to the M, you will need to talk about what each of you wants. Start thinking about it...
Daddy, thanks for stopping by. Feel free to come by anytime you like. I've read many of your comments on other threads and respect you very much. Thanks for pointing out W's seeming progress. It's nice to know.
Tumbling, thank you as always for your support. W hasn't lashed out at me in long time. *knock on wood* Worst that she has done is shutdown, but that has been my fault. Gotta ask, what's MA?
Tori, due to my previous overzealous / too hopeful successes, I have started a list. Also, W did ask "what do I need" last w/e if we were to work on things. No actual committment to the at yet though so I'm keeping it "business / friend like". (eg working on finances).
Journaling.
Have been doing some home improvements (minor, but mutually agreed upon) today. She's all happy and giggly (teenage like), as she shares that she told OM he is a dueche bag (so?), that she's going out with her BFF and getting trashed, wanting to post pics of her out having fun on FB. I honestly did my best at remaining neutral to all of her talks before she left. I think she probably read my mind that I wanted to give her a "high five" for calling OM that. Lol. Oh well, I can't be perfect can i? Right before she left, she did walk up to me, seeking a compliment on how she looked. I refrained, but then stated that it seemed as if that's what she was doing. W said no but feel free to share one, so I did share a genuine WISH, as she did look amazing. Anywho, I've been hanging with the kids, they helped a little with DIY projects; and am ok.
Hope all is well with everyone, or at least everyone is doing well despite our sichs.
Daddy, thanks for stopping by. Feel free to come by anytime you like. I've read many of your comments on other threads and respect you very much. Thanks for pointing out W's seeming progress. It's nice to know.
Tumbling, thank you as always for your support. W hasn't lashed out at me in long time. *knock on wood* Worst that she has done is shutdown, but that has been my fault. Gotta ask, what's MA?
Tori, due to my previous overzealous / too hopeful successes, I have started a list. Also, W did ask "what do I need" last w/e if we were to work on things. No actual committment to the at yet though so I'm keeping it "business / friend like". (eg working on finances).
Journaling.
Have been doing some home improvements (minor, but mutually agreed upon) today. She's all happy and giggly (teenage like), as she shares that she told OM he is a dueche bag (so?), that she's going out with her BFF and getting trashed, wanting to post pics of her out having fun on FB. I honestly did my best at remaining neutral to all of her talks before she left. I think she probably read my mind that I wanted to give her a "high five" for calling OM that. Lol. Oh well, I can't be perfect can i? Right before she left, she did walk up to me, seeking a compliment on how she looked. I refrained, but then stated that it seemed as if that's what she was doing. W said no but feel free to share one, so I did share a genuine WISH, as she did look amazing. Anywho, I've been hanging with the kids, they helped a little with DIY projects; and am ok.
Hope all is well with everyone, or at least everyone is doing well despite our sichs.
Yeah, that all sounds really good afa. The only thing that I will add is that you need to be clear about what those things are that YOU need for reconciliation.
here's the short list that I made last week. Thoughts?
What I WANT / NEED
*IC therapy - MC therapy
*Forgiveness for my wrongdoings
*Transparency - FB, games, phones, email.
*Equal partners in everything - house chores, bills, free time, parenting.
*Sleep in same room / bed - your mattress and comforter set.
*Help in taking life less serious / be less responsible - relax and have fun
*Exercise together sometimes.
*Most importantly, make the M a priority. Make time for each other.
-- In.the event I / we get there
Add NC with OM.
Well, I would put NC with OM at the very top of that list. If has to be first and foremost otherwise, you are setting yourself up for a colossal fall.
On the other things on your list... they sound good. Maybe you could be a bit flexible on a couple of them, such as the working out together. I mention that one because I, for one, don't like to work out with anyone, let alone my W. That is just kind of my personal get away time. Your W might feel the same and I don' think that it is fair, or necessary, for you to take that away from her.
The other ones seem good, if not essential.
Oh, meant to add, that you should merely state these things to her... not pressure her... not argue with her about them. You simply communicate them to her and tell her to take her time to consider it. To let you know if and when she wants to commit to those things. I bolded 'wants' because it won't work if she feels that she is forced to do it, even if it is just an implied pressure from you.
I agree. I'd also bring Make M a Priority at the top of the list along with NC with OM.
I was wondering about that myself and I thought it might be a good idea to ask your W to come up with a list as well. I kind of thought of a "What I would like from you" list as well as a "I think this is what I need/am prepared to do" list. Both spouses would generate such lists and exchange them and then discuss them. How does that sound?
Denver and Arsene, thanks for the input. I did ask her what she wants / needs. I so believe in equality and know this isn't a one sided scenario. So it sounds great.
As far as working out together, no big pressure thing. It's something she asked me to do before but rarely would unless she dragged me along (eg walks). She can keep her zumba all to herself as I doubt I could do that.
M should be at the top. And NC with OM for me was a given, but added it on here so you all knew it.
.
It's great you're creating this list. Be specific, and think about why each item is important to you. Ask yourself how much you'd be willing to compromise.
However, and this is key, you should not start talking about this list until you are both ready. She is not there yet. The day she says she wants the M to work--consistently, that's when she'll be ready.
I remember my H created this list of things for him to stay in the M shortly after I had received the emails from the OW telling me they had stayed in touch even after he had moved back into the house. I said to myself, is he kidding? How dare he give me this list when I can't even trust him? So timing is really important.
Anyway, my point is, focus on the important stuff and wait till the time is right.
Also, continue being cautious in regard to the OM. When my H moved back into the house, he used to call the OW "crazy parking lot woman," "Voldermnort," and other names like that, but he was emailing her/texting her via Skype behind my back...
Afa,
Just a thought. Have you considered the Retrouvaille retreat? It's been talked about around here quite a bit for a while and I read up on it. It sounds good and it might be something which could re-ignite the flame, or at least give you guys some tools to work on your R.
That's what I thought Tumbling. Just wanted to make sure.
Arsene, I've looked at it, I'd do it. If and when W is ready to work on the M, I may suggest it at some point, but she may be turned off by the religious undertone of it.
Tori, I keep reminding myself to try to go slowly. I know she's still in some contact. She said something the other day about how she wants to remain his friend on FB so she can watch him struggle / crash in flames or something to that effect. I will NOT agree to that. She tricked me into allowing them to be FB friends once and look where that got me.
It sounds good and it might be something which could re-ignite the flame
Flame = Fire.
Fire = Fuel(common values/goals/love/desires) + Oxygen (space,boundaries) + Heat (attraction)
Women don't love men they can't respect. Being someones second choice has consequences. Be in charge of your actions. Too many confuse patience with time, patience is a mindset. Taking healthy actions requires no patience. Choose to thrive thru this instead of holding on to survive. Your sitch can change quickly when you start a fire in your life.
Hi afa75, keep treading slowly. Come sit with us on the blanket...:-)
Afa you once told me to tread lightly
It made me think of Yeats - here is a misquote for you:
"Tread lightly for you tread on your dreams"
Keep up the great work, Andrew. Yes, the FB friendship has to go--when you guys are ready to talk about that stuff.
Tumbling, Busting, and Tori - It's wonderful to have support from each of you lovely ladies.
So here's today's scenario - spend the better part of the day doing light housework, including laundry - Yuck! W did come home at some point last night and it looked like she had fun. Hangover.
. At one point during the day she said that she was getting hit on by somebody, no one would really want to get hit on by. So she said she was married. That didn't work for this guy. But it did for others? Nice right? The bar owner (her aunt) kept the guy away.
The rest of this day was her dropping D11 off for a sleepover and then her doing a little retail therapy before a work function. The boys and I go to a park and have a pretty good time.
When we leave the park I get a phone call from W. She tried shopping but left early and came home as she has been crying all day, including while shopping. She is going to not go to the work function, but rather go spend time with a coworkers (the one who was the OW for a different R) and some of her female friends. W says she needs to clear her head, she needs to get better. She then literally said she "chooses us".
I validate all that and wish her well, be careful.
If all this is true, then Yay! I am going to tread lightly though. No sense in treading on dreams.
...that was the abridged version of the convo on the phone.
Fingers crossed for you mate!
Good job planning to tread lightly. You sound very strong, Andrew. I'm impressed. You exemplify what it means to be DBing and validate your W under difficult circumstances
Hope you enjoyed the work function.
Good update. She is being really open about her feelings, which is great, and you are listening and not reacting when what she says isn't what you want to hear. Awesome job.
Also, when you make your list of wants, don't only focus on the short term (e.g. no OM,) but on the long term (e.g. financial responsibility.)
It sounds good and it might be something which could re-ignite the flame
Flame = Fire.
Fire = Fuel(common values/goals/love/desires) + Oxygen (space,boundaries) + Heat (attraction)
Women don't love men they can't respect. Being someones second choice has consequences. Be in charge of your actions. Too many confuse patience with time, patience is a mindset. Taking healthy actions requires no patience. Choose to thrive thru this instead of holding on to survive. Your sitch can change quickly when you start a fire in your life.
Great stuff, Coach.
Thanks for simply being here and continuing to cheer me on.
Coach and Starsky,
Somehow I missed over your post initially. I am still trying to grasp it's full meaning. I'm pretty sure she I'm the first choice, and I do have her respect. Should I interpret it to mean, to take proactive, positive action to make things better? Or????
Journaling...
Yesterday was fair. W was again an admitted emotional mess, per her. I struggle with not helping her. I know it is her journey, but I have to at least vent it here, that I want to console and make everything better. I've simply been validating what I can. IN the afternoon, she reportedly was beginning to "clean up her FB."
Last night, she was very distant, so I told her I was going to the bedroom to read. She soon thereafter followed, and cuddled up next to me. At one point, we fell asleep for a few while holding one another. Then she woke and eventually went upstairs to her bed. This morning she shared, bad nights of rest / couldn't sleep. I hope she calls and schedules an IC appt soon.
Hi afa75,
I wanted to come by to say hi.
Let's see what the vets say...
But i am here with you cheerleading for you on the blanket!
:-)
Afa, If an intruder was in your home and after your wife, what would she respect?
Great job giving your W space when she needs it. Validating is the best choice, too. When is the IC returning to work?
Thanks Busting and Tori.
I can say I've learned a few things the past few days since I've been here last. Good and Bad.
So we've been friendly, actually friendly with more physical contact (hugging nothing more). We've had 2 R convo's the past few days. The first night, I was tempted to leave the house. Last night, I packed my bags, went to give the kids a one last kiss (they were in bed), and about to leave. Each of the nights, W said she understood if left, but asked me to stay.
She definitely pursued me as I withdrew. I've let my boundaries down, I've been impatient, I've allowed my ego to get in the way, I've pushed too much. I feel really sad at this moment, even though W and I have been able to patch up the little disagreements we've had. We have a "friend date" tonight to go over Christmas list stuff for the kids and watch one of our fav shows. I blew it last night. I did reach out via email earlier, and W responded, "I'd love too, I'm glad you asked." W even has an eye out for a possible job for me.
I'm living in a world of ocnfusion and mixed emotions.
Oh have to add this too, during the first convo we had, I teared up. I teared up thinking of all you wonderful people.
Tips / advice for me to get better for me (in addition to the keep doing the same)? 8)
bump - thread disappeared.
Andrew, what disappeared?
So, you had a couple of bad nights. What happened? You are not ready to start the R talks yet. Can you vent here if you feel the need to start a R talk or call a friend? Is she the initiator?
Given where you are, it's ok to ask her to do stuff with you, but it's important to not react negatively if she says no. Just go ahead and do something else. You're building a friendship, a connection. This is no LRT anymore.
We're here for you. For now, have fun on your date night and keep things light and relaxed. Let us know how it went.
My thread disappeared. I couldn't see in the forum. No biggie as it is back.
She initiated 1 and I did the other. Part of the the problem was related to getting upset over her "friendship" with OM. My admitted overzealousness / impatience. Also part frustration as W has said how bad he hurt / used her, yet her saying they're not on bad terms. Whatever right? The good news is she did pursue me. She asked me to hang out. We made amends despite the arguments I / we were able to
ultimately ha good talks with emotional content. That wasn't always there pre bomb drop.
The so called "date" if you will, went well. In the sense we simply hung out, minor chat, and she fell asleep on the couch - woke up stile food off my plate - fell back asleep, more nice chit chat, then went upstairs. Multiple friend ly genuine smiles.
I need to continue to focus on myself as well as rekindle the friendship. We each agree on that type of R as a minimum.
So we will see...and yes. I'll jump to here to vent rather than with W or friends.
Ending this night on a positive note
Goodnight all
Good work Afa. I think that what you re doing hasd got an effect on your W. Re: the contact with OM, didn't you say that she was "cleaning up" her FB? It might just be the start of something. Be patient and let her come your way.
Yes, she did say that. Yes I need more patience. Her coming close to me (eg climbed into bed with me this morning and spooned) makes it harder. I'm working at though. Did you ever happen to find the pages in DR you mentioned a few a days ago? I've looked but cannot find it. The pages about reconsidering once you've made a certain amount of progress.
Thanks...
Interesting that she wants a friendship with the OM. My H said a few times that he would want to reach a point in which things were not awkward, but he admitted a friendship would be impossible.l Maybe she's seeking attention. Will write more when I'm at my computer.
Yes, she has said she wanted to keep him as a friend, "he's the one that got away / have always had a connection," but realizes that she cannot have both if we get back together. "A matter of time" or something like that.
Looking forward to hearing more from you.
Andrew, can you really accept her friendship with this man? Really think about this, and draw the line if you have to...but not quite yet. You've got to give her a little longer to get past her feelings. It took my H about five months after they had ended their R. When there is an EA, it's a lot tougher to let go. It's a slow process...and not a fun one to go through, but if you care about your M and your W, you can do it.
My H pretended he had ended all contact with the OW, but he continued contacting her. At least your W is being honest. And I do think she's seeking attention from you, trying to get a reaction. Don't fall into it.
The book says that as long as your S is not pulling away, and you still have the strength to continue, you should keep DBing. As you make more progress, you have to reassess your goals (remember the short vs. long-term goals?) I would start thinking about my goals now and be prepared for when the time comes.
I hope this helps!
It does help.
She is seemingly being honest; and probably is attention seeking.
I have already told her The good / weird news is that OM has already moved onto some other girl. It sounds like he has had and does
keep several at a time. it would have to be, at some point NC, if / when she is to commit 100% to the R. Right now she is wanting baby steps and friendship. I can kind of handle that.
.
Oh and in re: to an IC, seems as if the one picked out may be flaky and W is terrified to face her actions. Going to work out. Check back with yas later.
Hi Afa,
The bit I mentioned is in the Infidelity section on page 194, Let The Healing Begin. It's not much but I thought it touched on some of the ways you might be feeling at times.
Thanks Arsene. I was flipping through it earlier today looking again. Now I'm sure I can find it.
Side note, I've been reading up on your sich, just no comments lately.
Thanks friend!
Journaling....
So based on my recent posts above, W has been coming closer, emotionally and physically. I've been too eager and too hesitant to believe it's true.
Tomorrow she has an overnight work trip. Located 1/2 way between home and OM's place. I'm fearful they'll meet at her hotel. Not much I can do but pray she has been truthful with me lately and that it's done in that sense with him and that I'm being a bit insecure. At least honest here though.
Trying to make plans with friends to go out Saturday, something at least.
Cool thing is I've reconnected with friends from Philly who now live in the Carribean. They invited me to come visit. Now to find funds to fly down.
Also, think I may have to finish my current Mitch Albom book and then reread DR again.
Andrew, I understand how you feel about her overnight trip. Trust will take a while to rebuild...but progress will happen a lot faster once she's recommitted to the M.
Great that you're making plans, and maybe you can travel to the Caribean! What country? The funds will come...
Thanks Arsene. I was flipping through it earlier today looking again. Now I'm sure I can find it.
Side note, I've been reading up on your sich, just no comments lately.
Thanks friend!
Journaling....
So based on my recent posts above, W has been coming closer, emotionally and physically. I've been too eager and too hesitant to believe it's true.
Tomorrow she has an overnight work trip. Located 1/2 way between home and OM's place. I'm fearful they'll meet at her hotel. Not much I can do but pray she has been truthful with me lately and that it's done in that sense with him and that I'm being a bit insecure. At least honest here though.
Trying to make plans with friends to go out Saturday, something at least.
Cool thing is I've reconnected with friends from Philly who now live in the Carribean. They invited me to come visit. Now to find funds to fly down.
Also, think I may have to finish my current Mitch Albom book and then reread DR again.
Yeah afa... tough. I know the feeling. In my experience, I learned that you kind of just have to let whatever is going to happen, happen. If your W sees OM on this trip, I believe that you will know. I always found that my instincts were pretty good. Something about my W's behavior would change if she had contact with OM. Hard to explain. Bottom line though is that you cannot control what she is going to do. So what you have to do is behave normally and appropriately. In other words, don't let her see you sweat this. If touching base once that evening is normal for you guys, then do that. But don't call her over and over, and ask her a million questions. See will see the insecurity all over that type of behavior. And that wouldn't be good.
Something else that i wanted to address... do I have this right that your W wants to remain friends with OM?
I see that as very problematic if so.
Tori, yes trust does take time; and I believe it will be a tad easier when / if she fully commits to the R with me. Earlier today she called and chatted me about all the "girls" that were going to be there tonight. All of coworkers are females. Many that know and like me if that matters at all. Also, she was asking if I was king out tomorrow, etc.
St. Croix is the island. Fund wise just need it for airfare and food / drinks.
Denver, my want was to ask about tonight. I did realize it would do me no good; and as you said whatever happens will happen. She left a few hours ago. I was cool, calm, and collect when she left. Wished her a good time and to be careful.
As far as remaining friend with OM, she knows my opinion on that. A big fat no way in hell.
. I think she gets it. So we will see.
How are you doing today? When she returns from her trip, I would act interested but would not mention the OM.
Hope you have fun with your friends today. Oh, and St. Croix sounds perfect for a getaway!
I'm okay so far today. Main thing I'm struggling with is plans. I suck at it / normally wait to the last second. I'm trying though. I can always hang out with friends at their house which is good, but obviously I'd like to actually do something more than. But what?, no clue. Still working on developing that. Part of me wants to just chill at home. But I know going out is best for me.
St. Croix would / will be awesome.
So last year, W and I would have texted / spoken while she was away. This year obviously, I did not initiate any contact. Surprisingly though, she did for a little bit, and sent me a good morning text or two. So I'm just reminding myself that she may be texting a million others, but at least she has included me (another small step of progress). Nothing huge, but a little something.
So that's how I am so far. Getting ready to take the kids out. S7 has a bday party to go to (yes, lately it's been bday crazy around here), so the other 2 and I are going to run some errands, then I'm not sure after that.
OJ, and I have initiated some contact about a job opportunity, decent response so far.
Oops, clicked submit too quick.
How r you doing Tori?
HI afa75-
Yes baby steps all the way. Thats what we are meant to look for. So good that your W included you in her GM's this a.m.
Keep going forward.
Hope you are well and have a good weekend.
Busting
Andrew, her contacting you in the AM is actually great. She wouldn't have done that if she had seen the OM.
Yes, get out if you can, but even spending time at your friends' houses is good. I wish I had friends like that!
What job opportunity are you talking about? Is it for you?
Have a fun day :-)
The job opportunity is for me. We will see if I can even apply / can meet the certification standards.
I really didn't think about the GM, if she had seen OM. Thanks for putting it that way. She's back from the trip, and shared the boring details of the conference and how she bonded with her coworkers over drinks. So yeah, she initiated the light hearted convo, while laying next to me in bed. At one point she reached over and cuddled for a few until the kids came near the room. Don't want to upset D11. W did ask again if I was going out tonight. Not sure what that's about, but I think I need to go out for me simply to continue to GAL and not sit around waiting for her.
Hi Afa - been away, back now.
I see you are treading lightly.
It's inching in the right direction
Andrew, go out tonight. I see all positives here, so this is great!
Oh, and good luck with the job! Would it be a welcome change for you?
Andrew, how are you? Been thinking about you. Hope the silence means good news.
Hey Tori, Thanks for asking.
Overall the silence has been due to good news and being busy.
To update you all.
Saturday I went to my friends house, had a few drinks and watched college football. The funny thing about this is that I've been there about once a month. The first time, I was an absolute mess. The second time, still insecure, but better. This recent time, I was good. I was fine with where I was.
So on my drive back home Sunday morning, my phone goes off because of a FB notification. Friend request --> W!
I took my time in accepting. She asked me if I was going to accept when I was arrived home. She choose me. She literally said that. She defriended OM and his family. She also started to follow me on Pinterest. She clicked "follow" her so I could see what she was doing and what not. The past few days have been good. We have been polite. She has choosen to sleep in my / our bedroom again. She has initiated little and more than kisses. It has been wierd. A good weird. I have tried to remain somewhat detached / lean back. Follow her lead and what not. The other night, she accidentally texted me that OM sent her an email telling her to listen to some "try again" song; and then followed with another text about "how's done with that, and happy with where she is (w/ me)" The text was intended for her BFF. I did not make any comments, including when she let me know that it was an accident, "but at least you know where I am" with regards to the whole sich.
All in all, things have been progressing in the right direction.
The slight bad news, is last night, W, BFF, and SIL came over, hung out and we all had some wine. W and eventually went to bed. We woke up middle of the night, fooling around, and one thing did lead to another. Bad news it obviously was something way too fast; and it was unprotected. I know this. I am ashamed of myself. I am generally more responsible, but am beating myself up over this. I feel bad. I think she does too. It was obviously a mutual and consentual thing, but I think we each are fearful of going to fast and jumping back into the old routine.
Thoughts?
...and needless to say I have the empty pit feeling in my stomach.
Hey Tori, Thanks for asking.
Overall the silence has been due to good news and being busy.
To update you all.
Saturday I went to my friends house, had a few drinks and watched college football. The funny thing about this is that I've been there about once a month. The first time, I was an absolute mess. The second time, still insecure, but better. This recent time, I was good. I was fine with where I was.
So on my drive back home Sunday morning, my phone goes off because of a FB notification. Friend request --> W!
I took my time in accepting. She asked me if I was going to accept when I was arrived home. She choose me. She literally said that. She defriended OM and his family. She also started to follow me on Pinterest. She clicked "follow" her so I could see what she was doing and what not. The past few days have been good. We have been polite. She has choosen to sleep in my / our bedroom again. She has initiated little and more than kisses. It has been wierd. A good weird. I have tried to remain somewhat detached / lean back. Follow her lead and what not. The other night, she accidentally texted me that OM sent her an email telling her to listen to some "try again" song; and then followed with another text about "how's done with that, and happy with where she is (w/ me)" The text was intended for her BFF. I did not make any comments, including when she let me know that it was an accident, "but at least you know where I am" with regards to the whole sich.
All in all, things have been progressing in the right direction.
The slight bad news, is last night, W, BFF, and SIL came over, hung out and we all had some wine. W and eventually went to bed. We woke up middle of the night, fooling around, and one thing did lead to another. Bad news it obviously was something way too fast; and it was unprotected. I know this. I am ashamed of myself. I am generally more responsible, but am beating myself up over this. I feel bad. I think she does too. It was obviously a mutual and consentual thing, but I think we each are fearful of going to fast and jumping back into the old routine.
Thoughts?
I think that it is a big step! Very good. I would not play it up too much either way. I would continue doing what you are doing and behaving the way that you are behaving. Continue to be confident with yourself and the path that you are traveling.
You did not indicate whether or not she brought it up the next morning and/or what her take on it is. Is she upset? Happy?
If you have a conversation about it, or if you feel the need to bring it up with her, I would basically communicate that "It was nice being close to you again." But not make a big deal out of it either way.
Oh... and I'm not sure that I believe that that text was not meant for you. My guess is that she doesn't want to feel like she is giving you control, but she also wants you to know where she stands with OM... so she 'accidentally' sent that to you. I could be wrong, but that is an awfully big text to accidentally send to you.
Thanks Denver. Ever since the reFriending I've been doing my best at keeping my excitement to myself and displaying the confident me. Not too much, not too little; and trying to follow her lead / match her.
She hasn't directly said anything about last night, other than our mutually agreed upon mixed emotions.
As far as the "accidental" texts, I never thought about it the way you framed it. Fortunately I remained detached about the whole scenario. Letting her lead, if she wants too.
So as soon as I come home, w is friendly and physically affectionate. Plans for tonight include a movie and maybe wine. Her ideas.
We'll see how the rest of the evening goes.
In case I don't make it back tonight, thank you everyone and I hope everyone is doing okay; and that you all can have a Happy Thanksgiving.
Andrew, it's good to see you were away for a while bc things were actually good! I don't see anything wrong with what happened last night, unless there's risk of a pregnancy, which you definitely not need right now. Intimacy is good. Remember, at this point, you're not doing LRT but all the other steps (doing 180's, creating goals, etc.) And of course, you both need to heal from the affair.
I also suspect she intended the texts to go to you. But I guess it doesn't matter. Things are looking good.
I think it's okay to appear enthusiastic about her changed behavior, but not overly crazy about it. I sense you know what you're doing.
Have a fun evening, and Happy Thanksgiving.
Happy Thanksgivng Andrew :-) I hope you have a fun evening and I am happy to read about your progress :-)
Seriously Afa! Hats Off. You are so doing DB!!!
Happy Thanksgiving
Thank you everyone for the positive thoughts.
Since the last post, things have been going fairly well.
We watched the movie, not so good of a movie. Had a few glasses of wine, but that's it. Ultimately, W did start an R convo and we discussed being intimate, and our misused time (eg watching movie instead of talking). Ironic huh? 8) Anyways, we ended up starting the convo at about 1am and then finished around 2am.
Thanksgiving was a little awkward for each of us, being around our families together and what not. Guess that's too be expected huh?
Yesterday, a wave came out of nowhere and I had some dark thoughts. W comforted, consoled, and did everything she could to help me. I'm still rebounding, but I've promised myself, and to her that I'll be better by end of the day. We all know that I have done it before. Why not again?
W has on various occassions stated that she is committed to working on the R (even said she'd rather go see an IC for that than her past abuse issues).
Safe to say it's time to begin officially "piecing"?
Also side note, when I get time to catch up on other sichs I will, I promise. I have been thinking of you all, and sending positive thoughts.
Andrew, this definitely qualifies as piecing. AWESOME!
Next step is to continue working on creating goals and slowly communicating them to her. Listen as much as you can. Share as much as you can without making her feel bad about herself. Remember you want her to feel good when she's around you. It's time to re-read the book and put all the stuff into practice (except for LTR!)
Happy for you!
Quasi bad update and need guidance... please read and offer thoughts as I / We are not truly ready for piecing, evidently...
So last night W starts a R convo. Informs me that she has been still been texting OM, as a friend so to speak, yet have been arguing or whatever. She again, claims this is the last time, however, she did send him a FB friend request as she wants to keep him in that regard. My response is NC! I let her know, calmly and genuinely, that I appreciate her honesty, yet when I say NC, I mean NC in forms (texting, FB, email, what not). During the convo, W also talks about how we "jumped into things too quick." I agree. That other than cuddling, she's not ready for more, that she wants more time. So again, I ask, what will you do with the time, this time, if anything. Add on that she sees potential for us, cannot "fathom" the idea of not being with me, is hopeful that Christmas magic will help renew her desire for me to have an R with sex. If not, she's planning on filing at the beginning of the new year. WTF???
In re: to the NC with OM, she says I'm being controlling, I say no, it's a boundary for me. She responds with, the previous boundary of not dating anyone set way back when, that she clearly broke. I let her know that I was weak then, but am stronger now, and not willing to budge as that contributed to where we are.
So to try to make this long story short and spare some details, at the end of the convo, when it's time for bed, she checks FB, and OM accepted her request. She says she was went to withdraw the request, but obviously it's too late; and unfriending him again would be too difficult. She asks if she can sleep in our bed. I begrudgingly agree, but say no cuddling. She tries to cuddle. I'm withdrawn. I move her arm off of me. I pull away. She gets mad and then goes to her room to sleep. About 15 minutes later she comes back and asks if she can sleep there as she just defriended OM. I agree. We do snuggle, but it's different. This morning, each of us withdrawn, but polite.
So now what do I do? Go dim again or what? I am so confused, I feel like I'm back at square one when the bomb dropped (sorta). I am proud of myself for setting and enforcing the boundary.
Thoughts?
Stick to you boundary.
I don't think any of her confusion is intentional to keep you hopping, I think she's really confused.
Don't be withdrawn, be happy. I know, difficult but she's getting some emotional strokes from OM, don't make him look a lot better than you.
Don't let her confuse you, choose your path and carry on. If you can only be in your marriage if she doesn't contact other man, then tell her that and stand by it.
Oh, and put no stock in Christmas magic. Disable the Lifetime channel from your TV.
Thank you Labug! During the convo I sensed the whole "fog" / confusion. Not being a psychic, but I think we can all agree there's a correlation between ongoing contact with OM. She disagrees, but that's probably the fog talking. She honestly flip flopped during the convo so many times it was sort of sad. Fortunately, I've been through hell, and was able to handle all of this convo in a non angry way. Frustrated at times, yes, but not anger (previous complaint).
In regards to disbling Lifteime, I have to laugh. W made a reference to the "magic" just like in a Lifetimie movie. LOL.
So i'll try to keep PMA, but I have to admit, she's exhausting.
The thing is, she probably would like to keep him as a friend because there's something she gets from that R. And that's useful for you to know, if/when you start piecing.
What is she getting from him, that she wasn't getting from you?
Currently, they are / have been arguing. So I'm not sure. I think he is pleading for another chance kind of a thing.
Their whole R was based on her feeling alive again. Having a zest for a life. Then again, her weekends with OM involved her not having to tend to any of our adult responsibilities / real world stuff. Hell, if I could live free like a teenager, I would, yet I'm too responsible. Other things I know she received were WOA that seemingly meant more than mine. I honestly was offering compliments prior to bomb drop, yet they meant little to nothing. I was pursuing / wanting to spend QT with her. She denied. I'm not sure how much of depression has / is contributing to prebomb, bomb, and current.
On the bright side, she called me this morning in a panic, b/c she hadn't heard from me & bad stuff went down at work for her. Nothing horrible, just bad. I say the bright side becuase during her attempts to contact me (I was busy working), she had also sent me a text that she FINALLY called and left a message for IC. Yay!
So I'm stuck with how to get her to feel alive. How for her to truly accept my WOA (genuine ones of course), while maintaining not only my PMA, but my sanity too.
Also, during the convo last night, she admitted she felt just like she was before, depressed - me doing too much (around the house type stuff). I asked how I can pull back / help her do for herself without being rude, but didn't get much of an answer.
her weekends with OM involved her not having to tend to any of our adult responsibilities / real world stuff.
That's the kind of thing most women want, someone to treat them special. Don't tell me you can't figure out how to do it. When you get to that point plan a weekend away, post it here and we'll help you tweak it.
When my kids were little I longed to be taken to a nice hotel room where I didn't have to clean, I could sleep late, drink a glass of wine in the afternoon, nap, read, without interruption, to my heart's content and be on my time schedule!
If the compliments were just before the BD, that was too late. He was already lighting her up. You had no chance then but don't take that as a failure, just bad timing. You may get the opportunity again.
Don't try to fix her (I asked how I can pull back / help her do for herself without being rude, but didn't get much of an answer) just be supportive and show that you're listening. Women talk about things that are bothering them and don't always want a fix. It's just how many of us work through things.
her weekends with OM involved her not having to tend to any of our adult responsibilities / real world stuff.
That's the kind of thing most women want, someone to treat them special. Don't tell me you can't figure out how to do it. When you get to that point plan a weekend away, post it here and we'll help you tweak it.
When my kids were little I longed to be taken to a nice hotel room where I didn't have to clean, I could sleep late, drink a glass of wine in the afternoon, nap, read, without interruption, to my heart's content and be on my time schedule!
If the compliments were just before the BD, that was too late. He was already lighting her up. You had no chance then but don't take that as a failure, just bad timing. You may get the opportunity again.
Honestly, W has felt depressed (more so) since our youngest was born, more than 2 years ago (she now acknowledges that). So perhaps many of my attempts were too late. I have not / will not give up on WOA; and I'd love to take her on a date / weekend getaway. She's not willing at this time.
Don't try to fix her (I asked how I can pull back / help her do for herself without being rude, but didn't get much of an answer) just be supportive and show that you're listening. Women talk about things that are bothering them and don't always want a fix. It's just how many of us work through things.
I did both. So you're saying, quit my "fixing" and just listen, right? I can do that. That was a part of the p/c we had shortly ago regarding work. Me listening and validating.
I appreciate the help you're offering Labug. Thank you so much. It's helping me put things back in perspective. Please keep at it. 8)
She could have had PPD, and if so it's unfortunate that it wasn't picked up earlier. It's good that she made an appt with a therapist.
Did you read How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It? It's helpful with understanding how couples relate.
Mostly we want to be heard-with both ears and both eyes.
Practice active listening and I mean that, practice it with friends and co-workers so when you use it with W you won't feel like a dork.
Good luck, afa.
It could be PPD, it could be PTSD due to experiencing various types of abuse growing up, it could be MD. It could be all of them combined. Who knows. 8(
I've become fairly solution oriented, I need to pull back on offering the solutions and simply be the active listener you're describing.
I haven't read that book. I can easily add that to my library.
What are your thoughts on openly reading it in front of W? I've been hiding my DR / DB books. 8)
Hope all is well with you Labug
((( )))
Andrew, I'm glad Labug was there for you. I was in NYC all day and just got back.
Sorry about this setback, but setbacks are part of the process. Remember this was an EA and those are the toughest to get through.
I agree with Labug's advice about sticking to your boundaries and about continuing your 180's. The IC might help but don't put all your hopes in it.
Women tend to be more romantic, e.g. I was also hoping for some Christmas magic last year--which didn't happen. Bring some small romantic gestures back into your repertoire. I know it must be so hard. I couldn't practice any of these things right after my H's affair bc I was so hurt and somehow felt he had to be the one trying to redeem himself...but it's not about being fair but doing whatever you can do to save your M (while keeping your sanity intact and respecting your values.) Not easy, but you've been doing it so well. So keep it up. I'm here for you!
(((((())))))
afa, I wouldn't read any R book around your W. I fear that if she saw you reading a R book, everything you did would be "because you read it in a book" and even tho that's a good place to learn things, it seems to take on a manipulative connotation.'
Things are pretty good for me, keep at this, eventually you do have a lot more good days than bad days!
Tori and Labug,
I appreciate your thoughts, warm wishes, and advice.
As far as the book, that's what I thought, just wanted to double check.
As far as IC, I'm not putting all or much faith in it. W did set up an appt for this Friday. This IC has spent a fair amount of time just talking with her on the phone which seems nice. W likes the sound of her voice, "soothing." She's a bit fearful of, "what if she tells me to divorce you?" I responded in 2 ways, "one that's really not their job to tell you what to do, and what if she tells you to stay with me?"
So we'll see what happens for her with that.
As far as "romance," I used to be a hopeless romantic. I let that die. I never followed through. I can do that. I'm just don't want to overdo anything. I feel as if I'm stuck in the crosshairs of LRT and near Piecing. Thoughts on that one?
Also, last night, I went to bed early last night / reading too. She welcomed a good night kiss. She came to bed later, we snuggled and it felt better than the night before. More natural.
This morning, she was friendly, and offered me a goodbye kiss.
I've realized I need to definitely reset my detachment, put some of my walls back up for me and keep on working the DB process.
I have had great success with my IC but I had to kiss a couple of frogs first. Be neutral about it, because I think in many ways we get what we think we'll get.
Beginner's Mind, don't pre-judge.
Enjoy what you are having with your W today.
W is not a big fan of therapy due to a previous bad experience, so hopefully this one will not be a frog. Good to hear though that you did find a good one for you Labug.
"Beginner's mind" I get.
"Don't pre-judge" I'm a little confused. Mind explaining a little further (what exactly to not prejudge)? 8)
Or maybe don't prejudge everything?
I was thinking specifically of the therapy, but not prejudging anything a good default status.
Kind of goes along with having no expectations.
Andrew, you said, "I feel as if I'm stuck in the crosshairs of LRT and near Piecing. Thoughts on that one?"
I still think this is Piecing. LRT is used when the S clearly says she wants out. But your W said she wants (or at least is reconsidering) being with you. The relapse in regard to the OM was kind of expected, I guess. My H did the same, but he wasn't honest about it. I'm not sure if she's being 100% honest. Only she knows.
This IC appointment seems to be taking an incredible amount of time to happen. Something is not right. But you must know better, since you're living the sitch.
I hope the IC helps. I still think it would be good for you to talk to Jody...
I'll do my best to keep the beginner's mind on all accounts. Easier said than done.
Tori, I would obviously enjoy being in the piecing stage 100%, she has obviously flip flopped
a bit, yet our R is still an option so that is a good thing.
As far as her honesty, you are correct, only she knows. I am thankful though that she did share at least a good amount re: texting, etc. The IC appt has of course taken longer than it should. I'm putting most of that on W's varying reasons to stall (ultimately doesn't want to have face her past demons, recent actions - not mindreading as she has consistently said she's afraid of becoming an emotional mess and prefers to run from difficult things rather than deal with).
Journal entry kind of....
This "false start" has helped me realize I'm not as far along independently as I need to be. Relying too much on W. Is that somewhat a part of this process? This Saturday is D11's bday party. It was supposed to be on Friday, but has been changed to Sat, the same night I have an "ugly Christmas sweater party" to go to. I'm obviously going to the party for awhile (at a skating rink), but feel weird leaving early to go GAL. That and I simply feel weird now GAL w/o W due to her recent 50 - 100% commitment to the R. Normal or not?
Need some help on figuring out normalcy of my thoughts / emotions or I am doing things wrong?
Oh and an interesting mini thing, last night when talking about her IC appointment she asked and j did answer that as long as she gets better for herself (with or without me) is my hope for her.
And I mentioned the idea of retrouville with which she showed an interest. We were talking about all the cool couple retreats we could go to if we won the lottery.
. Which we did not.
LOL.
Your commitment to your D11 is 100%, yes?
You might rethink leaving early.
Don't worry about her commitment to the marriage, that's hers to deal with.
You walk your path.
Yes I am 100% to each of my 3 children. (getting teary eyed typing that part for some reason).
Part of the original plan was for me to leave early with the boys, now I think she's going to try and get a sitter for our 2year old.
I'm trying to walk my path for me, just so hard at times to stay on my own.
Question.
I would love feedback from those of you who have been / are following along my journey.
Simply - what do I seem to be doing right and where / how could I improve?
Journaling....
Today off work and spending the day with S2 like usual.
Honestly, I have cleaned less than even before. S2 and I ran a few errands to simply get out. W called after lunch. Nothing special, just checking on us.
Called a friend I haven't spoken with in awhile. He noticed an "upward" change via FB.
I wish the edit feature was active so I don't seem more insecure than I am (the rapid posting last night.
).
Andrew, this board serves as an outlet for any emotion, so if you were not feeling that sure of yourself last night, that's ok.
I think you're doing very well.
((()))
afa, just keep standing back and doing your thing. Don't be so focused on her.
I know how hard it is to do, believe me. But it is so worth it.
You do have to work on it otherwise your mind will stay stuck in the rut.
Time also helps.
Thanks as always Labug and Tori.
Today have been lounging around with the kids waiting for D12s bday party in a few hours. I'll be going and staying per the original plan. Leaving a little early with the boys.
Lounging does not equal cleaning. W came home from morning zumba and made a comment. I simply resounded with I didn't feel like doing it all by myself.
. She didn't say much more.
So we've cuddled here and there. I leaned in for a simple basic smooch. She reciprocated, but it wasn't a kiss. Baby pops on my part. Oh well.
Going to continue continuing on for now, whether it's true PMA or faking it.
Update -
So after the failed kiss (baby oops, not baby pops), I realized the need to pull back.
As we were all leaving she pulled me close to her for a simple kiss. We all had a good time at the skating bday party. W was on her phone from time to time, not sure exactly what, bit I did my best to not seem bothered, too much. I left early with only S2 as S7 wanted to stay and skate. For his first time, he did awesome. It was one of those good feeling moments.
.
S2 and relaxed on the couch watching cartoons, he was super cute, despite it being so late. Eventually they all came back, and W was interactive and we had a good time watching SNL. So we are least good friends at this time. Take what I can get, and do what's right for me I guess. We'll see.
Hope everyone is having a good day.
Andrew, it sounds like you guys are on a positive track again. Yes, take things slowly and continue DBing. Good friends is a good thing. Just make sure there's some flirting and mystery to eventually bring it to the next level.
Patience...lots and lots are needed.
Tori, you always have a post waiting for me when I NEED one.
(((( ))))
The rest of yesterday involved W and I doing Christmas shopping mainly for the kids, and a little for she and I. She helped pick out a few articles of clothing as did I for her. We had a good time. Light, flirtatious (from me), and friendly. Proving we can have a good time together. W even brought up the idea of US doing more shopping together for each other.
Near the end of the evening, she ran to the store, took forever, as she ultimately stopped at BFFs house. I could see the car. She did call to let me know in case I was worried. The thing that irritated me the most is that BFF refriended OM while W at there. W asked what was wrong so I did tell her. W said the BFF asked if it would bother me if she refriended OM, and W said, "Nah." WTF? A few other irriating things unrelated to our sich, occurred and I was simply in a bad mood. W made a comment that my anger was scaring her and that she may sleep in her bed upstairs. I reassured her that I never have and never would lay a hand on her in violence. That's ridiculous and she should know better. Or is this a PTSD thing from her first husband??? Anyways, she did sleep in our bed, and she choose to cuddle with me.
Tonight is her first IC appt. Do I try and extra patch things up?
Side note, a week or so ago, W shared that her SIL, one that initially was super supportive evidently does not think we can make things work now. Do I believe her? If that is the truth, any thoughts on that? W didn't elaborate other than SIL knows all the details.
I'm confused and cycling through numerous thoughts and emotions, mainly between giving the F up and moving on and obviously hanging in there. I know time is a gift. I just need a little ranting to hopefully get rid of the chip on my shoulder. Tonglen is not working at the moment.
If anyone has any words of wisdom please feel free to share, I sure could use them as this different type of limbo is much harder (clearly).
You make me smile-"Tonglen is not working at the moment"
Get ready-Get the eff out of her head!
What is your vision of who you want to be? That's what should be filling your head-how do you get from where you are right now to that goal.
Have you thought about d/cing FB? What positives do you get from it right now? It seems to me it creates way too much anxiety about things you have no control over.
FB is the most superficial communication in the world.
Why do you care what SIL thinks? Another thing you can't control.
How did you express your anger and why were you angry? Those are things you can control.
Focus, focus, focus.
(((((((((((((((((((((((afa))))))))))))))))))))
Once when my W was thinking of R, my IC told me that she wished I could have the confidence in myself to know my worth... and to show that confidence to W. I thought of that when I read your post.
((((((((afa)))))))))
I agree, who cares what SIL thinks and focus on yourself. YOU YOU YOU.
I can't imagine the difficulty you have right now but I can only imagine that the best you can do for YOU is to continue YOUR journey. Stay in control of your emotions. Control the thoughts in your head and leave others to have their own.Its none of their business and its none of yours.
you are a wonderful person afa. don't forget that.
(((( ))))
Labug - thank you. I'm not trying to be in her head, then again I'm not being in mine either I guess. I was ironically doing better when W and OM were an official item versus whatever they are now. Hope has caused me to backslide somewhat consistently lately.
Too long to type what I want to be via my phone, the vision of who I want to be.
I have thought about d/c'ing as her refriending has obviously added more anxiety and what not. I'll probably keep it, but not get on it as much. It is superficial I know.
I was angry over bff friending OM with W present. She knows my NC boundary. She even stated that she's friends with some of BFF's Ezra, and her H doesn't care. Guess W still views herbAL as nothing wrong (at least in that moment). Computer issues and child "sass" added to anger. I withdrew and kept to myself. I made a few angry comments. I asked W to leave me alone, to give me space. Then I worked out, and tried to make peace with W afterwards.
SIL and I are fairly close and she has been supportive of me along, at least until now, so her reported turn in opinion is what bothers me. It's not like her.
NG - thank you for stopping by and offering support. I need to regain ny confidence. I agree. That will also help me deflect / diffuse hiccups like these.
Busting - Thanks for your ongoing support. As stated I do need to refocus on ME. The hope thing is what sank me. The cuddling is nice, the not knowing about kisses here and there stinks, especially when is like more.
So in summary, focus on regaining my confidence. Focus on myself and who I want to be. Enjoy what I with W b/c at least it's better than what it was?
Thoughts? And bring more 2 x 4s if necessary.
afa, i think you are in a really tough phase of this process.. that takes a great deal of strength. trust in the work that you have been doing and trust in yourself, afa... she is lucky to have an H that loves her so.. (((((((( )))))))))))
Thank you NG. That means so much to me to hear you recognize my love for her. If only I loved myself 1/2 as much and she realized it to, we'd be in a different place.
I am trying. We all know the hell I've been through (we've all been through); and I need to better prepare myself for the worst case scenario.
She left for her IC appt for a moments ago. I left work early b/c S7 has a viral infection (he'll be fine). She brought it up. I shared that I am proud of her; and gave her a 40% off coupon to her fav store nearby the IC's office, "in case you need some retail therapy too".
I'll wait to see if she shares, and be ok if she does not.
Andrew, did she say anything about the IC appointment?
You're doing so well, so stay strong. I know how hard it is, and especially when she keeps a lot of her teenage behavior (i.e. FB thing.)
How do you express your anger? I once told my H I was scared of him and he said the same, that he himself was the least violent person on Earth. But I wasn't afraid he would hit me or anything. I was afraid of how he would make me feel with his attitude and his comments. So I started retreating and staying away from him. Just wanted to tell you what I went through so you can maybe empathize a little with your W. Not sure if she's feeling the same. The key is that she feels good about herself in your presence.
Here for you (((((())))))
Thankful you and the others are here for me.
She actually just came home a little bit ago. Overall, she said she liked her IC. That us HUGE! Main thing that she brought up were general childhood abuse discussion, her realization that her mom too thrives on chaos, that the IC thinks us being "neutral" right now is a good thing - don't do anything drastic. The only knee jerk response that I had to hold back on is that if were to D that I could subpoena her records (and vice versa). She has another soot next Monday, so that's that. A good thing so far. Good for her at least.
My anger is generally expressed with words, not hateful towards her or anyone. Just life itself and the triggers (minus the OM thing last night). Thank you though for the insight. I'm not going to say that is her, but at some point I may have to probe gently to see what her fear actually is, when the time is right.
As far as FB, if I get the urge to go there, I'm coming here first.
Time to out the oldest 2 to bed then a light workout. Strained a muscle the other night. Never thought is say that. Lol.
Thank you again for being here for me. I'll check in on you all later.
Hugs...and some positive vibes to you all.
Labug, I might have fixed my tonglen a bit.
Can you deal with your anger before it comes out? I'm not saying suppress it but rather, recognize it, let it go and then address the cause.
My life has become so peaceful since I've learned this.
and what county are you in?
Hey LaBug,
I saw you ask on MKB's thread...Campbell Cty. You anywhere nearby? 8)
As far as dealing with the anger as you suggested, that's actually what I was doing the other night, laying down by myself trying to let it go, but W came and sought me out. It was taking me quite some time to let it go.
I think I may have figured out a part of my errors recently.
This morning I brought W a cup of coffee and the way she responded with "Thank you" reminded me of how she'd say it when she was with OM, full on in fog. It made me realize that I have been thinking she was out of the fog when she said she wanted to work on the R, when in reality, she's still there, perhaps not as foggy as before, but still there with which also explain her withdrawal lately.
Andrew, good insights. Yes, getting out of an EA takes time. These tend to cause more damage. But you are making progress, so that's good news.
It's nice of you to bring her coffee. My H would've never done anything like that. You're a keeper! :-)
echoing Tori! a keeper! :-)
Tori and Busting, thanks for the "keeper" compliment.
It's truly good to hear! If W realizes and embraces it, wonderful. If not, someone else will (you 2 have). Kind of a nice reassurance for whatever my future holds. I need to remember my Perks quote and hold my standards higher (equality and happiness).
Today no contact throughout the work day. She's been more indifferent the past few days. Not trying to mindread too much, as it is rather pointless, and trying to let things be. Focused my energy on here and work. She's at zumba now so I bathed the youngest and am hanging with all of the kids.
afa, I'm from So Oh originally-get on 52 and drive east until you get to the Scioto River. I have family on both sides.
Andrew, checking on you. Hope things went smoothly today. Her indifference might not have anything to do with you. Let her process her own feelings, and give yourself time to process your own...
LaBug, 52 the Beechmont side of OH coming from KY? I often use a GPS when crossing the bridge..LOL
Tori,
Thanks for checking in. The other night, the house was messy, I asked her to help out some nice (nice way) as I was about to go workout. She said she didn't really care (in a nice way). I worked out, showered, and read for a little bit. Eventually I heard her cleaning, so I went and helped to illustrate that I wanted equality, not parenting her to clean up her mess.
Yesterday, I went about my day accepting the indifference, and not expecting much. Left work a little late, and on my way home she calls, "I haven't heard from you all day." Well, nor have I.
So she chatted me up about her day and vice versa. At one point, she mentioned that BFF asked her to go shopping with her, but she declined. I asked if that was the reason for her calling, and she playfully said, "No. I dont' have to ask for permission. If I want to go I will." 8) Throughout this whole process, she has further put me in the parental role, by asking if she can do this or that (eg Zumba), and my normal response is that you don't have to ask, but I appreciate you letting me know.
The night ended well.
This morning before we really woke up, she at one point told me to come closer to get her warm (snuggling), "that's my job." I confirmed that's what she said later on. 8) Also, she asked me if we wanted to have dinner out tonight with the kiddos before a Scout event. So that sounds good (for now). 8)
There's some personal insights / questions I want to post up here, but need to get to work. I'll hope to do so in a few hours (lunch break).
Hope all are doing well....
btw, did you ever receive / start the Miracle book Tori?
US 52 runs right along the river. But it's not that important.
It is a beautiful drive tho.
About your W, let it go. Apparently what you've been doing has had some affect. Don't judge or look for meaning in her actions, just take them for what they are just as we expect our actions to be accepted by the WAS.
What you're looking for from her now is Consistent actions + time=change you can believe in (is that the phrase?)
Try to enjoy yourself without waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Just don't lose your focus.
Thanks Labug,
Prior to slight less than indifference I've been okay, if not good for myself. I'm enjoying the goodness, her noticing me getting a haircut, simply as that. I'm confident I can continue to do well for me, for at least awhile. Fingers crossed.
Andrew, I received the book and will start it tomorrow when I finish my latest Wayne Dyer book--very good one by the way. It's live radio interviews with Lisa Garr.
It seems that things are stable and positive. Great! What questions did you have?
Keep up the great work and focus on the progress you've made.
No news about OM anymore, huh? I hope so!!
I really enjoyed the book, her writing style, and her suggestions. I'm on day 70. Right around day 40 is when W broke up with OM. Weird, but true. I hope you too like it and gain something from reading it.
As far I know, which isn't 100%, no mention of OM. He's not W's FB friend. W hasn't said anything about contact (texts). I'm presuming there is some, but not worried about it at this point. She doesn't live by her phone anymore and shares who she is sometimes texting. I'm trying to let it play out and hopeful OM will remain the POS and player that he is / that W sees I'm the best choice. Of not, someone out there will.
Question / statements.
1. Romantic, but not over the top, Christmas ideas?
2. Generally I haven't had any anger issues throughout our entire R, until lately of course. However I am wondering how.much my yelling, reminds W of her childhood with her mom. "Screaming Saturdays" were a regular occurrence. I can only do my best to deal / share with my anger in a heatlhy way / model it for the kids.
3. I have been teased by W and a few others for being too feminine / gay. Ways to regain my masculinity, yet remain in touch my emotions / appearance. What's the "manly" way? Side note, I 100% have nothing against GLBT orientations. Like what you like.
4. I cannot remember right now, but will add it when I think of it.
Going to workout soon, will check back later.
Andrew, I just started the book (audio version.) Her voice is a little creepy but the ideas are good. I'll let you know how it goes.
To answer your Q's:
1. Do something special and memorable. Think of what she misses the most in your M. She mentioned a Christmas Miracle--maybe something that has a hint of magic in it?
2. Yelling would scare the heck out of me. She's mentioned a few times that something will make you "pissy" which suggests she sees you as someone who gets angry easily. Be aware of your behavior. I used to get easily offended, and my H said it got to a point in which he stopped "being himself" so I would not get offended.
3. I can see you're a sensitive guy. Nothing wrong about it. Ask yourself if you're happy with your level of masculinity. Do you want to change that bc of what people say? Be independent from the opinion of others. My H was also teased about that when he was growing up. My mom still says that she thinks he's gay and that's the real reason he's left me :-) Funny.
Hope you had a good workout!
Oh, never heard her voice. That's the beauty of text, in my.mind she sounds Luke an angel. Lol.
1. I'll have to think. I still have a few days.
.
2. I'm either off base with my anger or she's is hypersensitive. Not denying I have my moments (typically far and few between), but I think it is the latter. Still, definitely room for improvement. I don't want anyone I care for to be afraid.
3. I am generally comfortable with mixture, just thought I'd bounce the the thought out there.
Now...I'm going to workout.
Remembered the other(s)
4. PreBD, W shared many of her friends' and coworkers' Rs with me. Most made our R look awesome. She's back to sharing more of those stories. Umm, other than displaying empathy, what am I supposed to think?
5. W has made several comments about others' Rs (money immediately close to her / us) and how infidelity is wrong. I nod and agree. In my head I'm thinking "really"? She's apologized for what she's done, but I guess she still views her A as A okay. Sorry, but had to make a joke out of it.
Andrew, I'm glad she sounds like an angel to you. Better choice was to buy the regular book.
She mentioned a miracle partner. Do you have a partner?
Re: your other two q's:
4. I think her sharing stuff about other people makes your bond stronger. It's the two of you as a whole viewing the rest of the world. This is really, really good. I always tried to get my H to tell me stories about his friends but he never wanted to share anything (he never did.) I'm not sure if it's a woman thing, but sharing these stories means we want to bond.
5. I hear you. In her mind, she's justified and rationalized her A as A okay--BTW you ARE funny :-) Anyway, it took months for my H to recognize that he had made a mistake. At the beginning, he even said he wasn't sure it had been a bad thing to happen. I was thinking, WHAT? But kept my mouth shut to follow DB rules. Looking back, I wish I had expressed what I really felt. It didn't end up making a difference. But if you can keep your cool, then good for you. It's so hard, though.
Hope you have fun plans for the weekend!
Tori,
No miracle partner. Just the diary app on my phone.
4. Well that's good news then.
5. Trying to keep my cool on most fronts. I have expressed many of my opinions to her. Thanks for the compliment.
So today has been uneventful. I've felt good. I've felt confident. Had an IC appt. Went well. Main thing he encouraged was to think about what kind of an that "I" want to have.
No major plans for most of the w/e. Tonight we are all going to a Santa house at S7's school. Tomorrow is W day / night out. So a true test of my latest efforts to detach. Initially I was very cool with her night. She's volunteered a lot of details about her plans. Now she's thinking of taking most of the day too. Is be lieing if that didn't trigger me some. I'm not going to say anything and just go with it. Oh, I did stop and buy the "Save Your Marriage W/o Talking" book. So that will be a part of my plan while she's out.
A few more questions (in addition to the ones above, things that I haven't had time to focus on since obese more into her directly).
6. At Thanksgiving my sad didn't say anything to her. Do I mention anything directly to him?
7. I have been holding onto several stock dividend checks. Do I deposit them into one of our accounts or open a separate / secret account? I'm not being selfish / greedy, I have had these before we ever got together and legally if we D, they will remain mine. So what to do, as I'm tired of holding onto them?
Hey.
I'm almost through with the book. It's interesting, but I wonder if it puts too much emphasis on what's wrong. I guess her theory is that by releasing the hurt one can finally manifest one's desires. I can see that. I would also do it w/out a partner--writing the items, that is. I made myself laugh :-)
My H bought the Save your M w/out talking about it. He thought it wasn't good. We'll see what you think.
Your Qs:
6. Do you mean that your Dad is not speaking to your W? I would talk to him about it, but not too much. Being a parent who sees his child go through something like what you're going through must be painful. I stopped telling my mom a lot of stuff, bc it was straining our R.
7. Do you have a personal (not joint) account? I would deposit the checks there, and keep records of the amounts just in case. If you don't have a personal account, I recommend opening one, as well as having your own credit cards (which I'm pretty sure you have.)
So, why is she having a "night out?" Does she still consider you two are doing an in-house separation? Do you have your own night out?
That's what I thought too about focusing too much on the negative, but it, at least for me, has been a nice way to purge in the morning and occassionally throughout the day if needed. BTW, you're funny too.
6. I understand hid POV, and I know it's something they each have to experience, but want to pave the road a bit so they can at least have a better chance at going down that road.
7. I don't have a solo account. I added her to everything years ago. Guess it is time to open one just so I don't have them laying around.
Her night out is so she can have space / fun? And we haven't set an us night. Honestly since she's withdrawn from the 100% to whatever % now, I'm not even sure what or how you classify our R. I don't want to directly bring it up, yet would obviously like some clarity.
Andrew, I wouldn't worry about the R with your parents too much. Yes, keep things positive, but if you and your W fix your M, they will have to eventually soften up.
Yes, open that solo account. Even if a M is great, I think it's important to have.
My H went from 100% committed to 80% committed before he announced he wanted a D. He loves percentages. Don't bring this up yet. My coach says that we need to convey we are comfortable with the ambiguity. Maybe you can start initiating outings for the two of you. If she says no, don't make a big deal out of it. If you need your own night out, then go ahead and have it. Your GALing needs to continue. I know it's so not clear now, but it'll become clearer with time.
Correct on the first two items.
I haven't brought up the R and it's current ambiguity. Today I like to think that I have coneyed an okayness. She's out doing some Christmas shopping. She's called to check in / ask a few questions so far. Before she left, I did ask about "our" shopping trip and she still wants to. Next Sunday I think. I do need continue my GALing. Meetup hasn't worked out for me yet. I need to find an out of the house hobby / interest of some sort. One that can continue for as long as I want to keep me taking care of me.
Meetup didn't work for me, either, but I've made new friends through a hiking club. Maybe there's something like that in your area (or another club focused on an activity you enjoy.) Here in CT most meetups are attended by older folks (50'), mostly divorced.
I've continued listening to the book, and she is talking about resistance vs. surrender. This is what Wayne D preaches, and I completely agree. What you resist becomes stronger. That's why I don't like it when I feel resistance. "Let go and let God," correct?
So I failed my test of detachment. I backslid. I let my insecurity and tiredness of this whole sich get the worse of me.
Last night I texted her and didn't get a response. So I then texted her and asked if she was with OM. she called, she said no, we Hung up on each other.
I went to sleep. Evidently she texted and called me but I didn't hear. At first it was stop freaking out, don't do anything stupid, and ended with a I knew you couldn't get past this. So this am I told her my volume was down and that didn't hear the texts / calls. That I need her help to get past this if we are to have a chance.
Ugh. I'm so mad at myself and don't care. Confusion going wild on what I want. And not looking forward to having deal with this when she finally comes back.
You didn't fail, you made a mistake. Life goes on.
I find that when I attach a meaning to someone else's actions I'm usually wrong because I don't know the truth.
It's hard to sit with the discomfort and fear of the unknown so I turn it outside myself, blame the other person for how I'm feeling.
Cause myself more pain...become the victim.
What can you do to get out of that cycle?
That's pretty much what I did. Became my own worse enemy - lost focus of me and the kids. Part of the reason was that she mirrored many of the OM days. Looked really good and was withdrawn / short with me.
As far as when she gets back, at some point I will apologize for being human in a difficult sich. Confidently share triggers.
As far as getting out of the cycle of torturing myself, I guess I need regive things to the higher power, and do my best to practice what I've been preaching about letting things actually play out. Thoughts / tips?
..and thanx LaBug. I need(ed) to hear from someone close; and I don't want to call family or friends with this one.
What could you have done differently?
She might have done something-your response is up to you. And yes, that's the hard part.
What are your boundaries with W?
Well, I could have honestly done nothing. That would have prevented the mess that I've started. I could have phoned a friend, albeit late, to simply talk. I could have posted here. I did try reading, but it didn't help.
Boundaries with W? The main one that is in place is OM not bring a FB friend. I've said NC, but she's still texting him. Other than that I can't think of any other specific boundaries. There have been R expectations such as sharing in finances and housework, but those arent the kind of boundaries we are talking about right? I obviously need a little guidance in developing more for my own protection....where do I start? :S
Hi afa, sorry I have been away for awhile. And I am sorry to see you are hurting right now :-( Please don't be so hard on yourself. Sometimes we don't give ourself enough patience and forgiveness. We forget we are human too.
What bug said (always so insightful)...
I find that when I attach a meaning to someone else's actions I'm usually wrong because I don't know the truth.
This, ^^^ I think is spot on. When we mind read actions and assume meaning...we are usually only seeing a snapshot of something larger that we are unaware of. I know we want to protect ourselves and so we often assume the worst so that we are ready for the pain (at least I know I do that), so I understand that. We need to remember that while we do need to protect ourselves, we have to do it while staying in control and taking care of ourselves as well.
(((afa))))
W came home. Talked lightly and friendly about stuff in general and a few details about her night out.
I left to grocery shopping / clear my head.
Thanks for the hug Busting. Right back at ya.
Trying to get my year back on straight...
Andrew, I agree with what Labug and Busting said. Don't feel bad about what happened. Your W had an A, and she's still texting the OM, so anyone would've felt the same in a similar sitch. Just try to be prepared for next time these feelings come so you have an outlet other than calling your W.
I remember being obsessed about checking my H's calls and even thinking about installing a tracking software in his computer. Never did it, but thought about it. One day I looked at his odometer, and he had driven xtra 10 miles the night he went to hockey--the exact mileage to go to the OW's house and back. When I asked him about this, he was outraged and angry. I explained how hard this was for me. I think all these things definitely damaged our R even more :-(
Hang in there, okay?
((((((((()))))))))
I'm trying....I'm trying.
Now that I'm back from the store, she's more distant from me.
So I'm not sure how BIG of a mistake that was. Definitely a day to "act as if".
Should I offer an apology or wait for her to say something?
Hey. Quick check in after the party--started early, ended early.
I would not apologize but tell her that you noticed she's been distant and have been wondering if it's bc of the way you reacted. Then if she says yes, I would try to explain how you're going through the process of trusting her again, and how it'll take time. Make sure she doesn't feel as though she's the bad person. Guilt should never be induced by you. Bottom line, definitely bring it up. At least that's my take. I hope I'm right :-)
Well, I could have honestly done nothing. That would have prevented the mess that I've started. I could have phoned a friend, albeit late, to simply talk. I could have posted here. I did try reading, but it didn't help.
You were obsessing, and causing yourself pain. For some reason we think that if we cause ourselves pain about some "thing" that may happen, it will make things easier or we can solve the problem when the actual thing (whatever that is) happens.
But as you found, that doesn't work. You drove yourself to a frenzy and then overreacted to a small problem. You could do all those things you mentioned but you still have the problem of inflicting this pain on yourself when in an uncertain situation.
When this comes up again, think. Name the problem: Wife Is Out Late. Outcomes and affect on you: She's with friends (OK) She's with OM (unhappy) She's been in an accident (unhappy) She's on her way home right now (OK) Any of these have a chance of being correct along with other possibilities.
And here's the kicker, we have no control which it actually is, so why obsess about those that cause pain. Let it go. This has very little to do with what our S is doing but has a lot to do with how we let our minds get out of control. We react from a primitive place instead of responding from our higher brain.
You're obsessing about something that's taking place in your mind so you can also turn that around and train yourself to NOT obsess over things over which you have no control.
Boundaries with W? The main one that is in place is OM not bring a FB friend. I've said NC, but she's still texting him.
(())so it wasn't really a boundary. Do you want it to be? What was the consequence?
Other than that I can't think of any other specific boundaries. There have been R expectations such as sharing in finances and housework, but those arent the kind of boundaries we are talking about right? I obviously need a little guidance in developing more for my own protection....where do I start? :S
Where you start is "Who is Andrew?" Who do you want to be as a father, a husband, a member of society? Have that vision of yourself and project it to the world.
And that's where your boundaries come from, those things that are non-negotiable in your soul.
Tori,
As I read your comment, a knot developed in my stomach due to my shame and embarrassment of discussing this. She continued to be somewhat withdrawn and lightly talkative the remainder of the night. She did choose to sleep in our bed (part of me thought she'd go upstairs), but we didn't not cuddle / snuggle. She kept to her side.
LaBug,
I agree and logically I "now" see that. It's in the moments that I drive myself crazy. I will have to try your strategy of naming the problem and possible outcomes.
My initial boundary of NC is if / when she wants to work on the R. THe consquence of him being a friend on FB was not sleeping in the same bed. I upheld that and so did she. She has a loophole as she's not 100% committed to us. Honestly, I don't know of the consequence due to the ambiguity of the current sich. I'll have to start thinking of my individual boundaries and what I want. Thank you for the starting point Bug.
Oh and as far as me emotionally / thought process...etc.
This morning I've been running the gammit of all of them (positive and negative). Trying to settle myself down and become more balanced.
W texted, called, and has sent me several emails thus far. Hope?
Andrew, I think you can risk being a bit more open with your feelings--just make sure the timing is right.
What do you mean, a loophole? The texting? Be clear that texting is a form of contact, so that's part of your boundary--it is, right?
Key things:
1. Convey you are ok with the ambiguity
2. Convey your boundaries
3. Show you can express your feelings and listen to hers.
(((())))
What is the ambiguity in your R and are you OK with that? This is unclear to me.
There are 2 types of boundaries, emotional and physical. It sounds like you are also having trouble with the emotional boundaries if you're up and down in several hours based on texts or calls or maybe I'm misreading your post above.
That's where detachment comes in and while time is an important factor, it also takes mental work on letting go.
Labug,
Ambiguity in the R in the sense of what role(s) we have. We're no longer enemies, not 100% working on our M, somewhere in between. Friends I guess?
My range of emotions and thoughts were independent of the texts / emails from W. Those were added to my post to share that she has been initiating some contact. "Hope?" was in reference to maybe didn't screw as bad as I thought.
Tori,
NC was if we were to work on our M 100%. The loophole is that she has pulled back from the 100%.
Hope that clarifies a few things regarding the ambiguity
Thank you for keeping up with me 8)
Andrew, she'll assume it's ok to contact OM as long as she says she's not 100% committed. Is this acceptable to you? If so, maybe you should reassess your goals. She obviously does not want to go back to the in-house separation stage, which is good. Any chance you can talk to Jody even if it's one time? I think she would really help.
Ultimately, no it's not okay with me. At some point I will have to draw the line. I'm honestly afraid too. Then again, the other fear I have is that once the holidays have come and gone, she'll file. I need to stop living in that fear. I'm kind of being a doormat.
I am going to call and set up a time with Jody tomorrow. Hopefully I can talk with her ASAP.
Last night W had an IC. She checked in to let me know she was there. Not expected. After the appt, she shared some info about the session re: her family of origin, impact on her, and siblings. I simply sat there and listened, including during the pauses with which she then shared more and more. No physical affection from her again at night / cuddling.
Today she again has sent some emails and a phone call.
I have noticed many of my work / parent / other family boundaries are generally good and intact. The worst one I have is obviously with W.
Am I DBing by not pressuring her re: contact with OM / not bringing up the R, or living in fear / being a doormat (not simply a LBS)?
Andrew, I'm glad you're going to talk to Jody. She's pretty booked, so I hope you get an appointment soon.
I doubt your W will file. She didn't even want to move out! So I wouldn't worry about that.
Think about the roles you and your W are playing. Are you always the one to give, the one to be responsible/caring? Whatever roles you've always had, try to change them a little.
Also, besides listening, if you feel like asking a question, I would go ahead and ask. Asking Qs is part of listening.
I think your W is taking you for granted. She's tested the boundaries and seems to be getting away with a lot of stuff. My H did (is still doing) the same. Your W and my H have a lot of common behaviors. This is why I think talking with Jody will really help.
In regard to you Q about being a doormat vs. DBer, I'm not sure of the answer. I told my H it was no contact or I would file for D. That's why everything turned so sour when I found out he had continued the contact.
Let me know what happens...For now, continue being the best you can be...
(((())))
Thanks Tori,
I figure I have my own credit card and those checks to foot the bill. The challenge may also be when to actually contact Jody. What time zone, if you know?
As far as roles, of course I'm the caring and responsible one. Us great minds think a like.
. Suggestions on how to alter my role? She has taken a slight step forward with housework, a little with finances, and if I need to vent about a bad day (work) or the occassional emotional meltdown, she'll listen.
I think she is cakeeating some. I unfortunately cut her slack b/c it does sound like she's making some positive connections about hrself with her IC. Also, many of her friends' troubled Rs are more of they're sticking out for now, so maybe that'll have a soothing effect on her to reconsider working on us.
Regardless I need to better myself for whichever way it goes. A separate boundary issue I have is who am I as an individual apart from W and work. So not just the R boundary, but the self boundary. I never realized how complicated we can be.
Oh, and I did ask a couple gentle, nonR questions. Just to test the waters to see if she'd share, with which she did. Listening, validating, and eye contact with her and so many others I interact with lately has helped overall.
Mini update
Last night W was called into a last minute work obligation. She sought out my opinion on how / who to manage the kids til I got home, called me to vent about it, checked in on her way there and called on her way home. "Checked in" at her own free will, no expectation of mine.
Addition to the other night convo regarding her IC. Her IC is in the process of joining our insurance network, so as of now, we're paying out of pocket rate. Yikes. Anywho, W expressed a concern about that, and so my response (as I've read here somewhere), "if it was cancer, we'd pay for the treatment to get you better." She really liked that.
So anwyays, last night she finally made it home. She wanted to journal (Yay!), and I elected to read. Funny thing is I was reading the How to Save Your Marriage book underneath, another book. Had to hide it at one point as she walked in to where I was reading. Lol. Anyways, I dont' totally agree with all of it, but I will say that a lot of makes sense for me / her. My fear / shame tendencies and her anxiety dynamic, as well as, W being my "meaning in life," and due to the sich, feeling lost. Nice validation and stuff for me to work on for me. 8)
It it's How to Improve YMWRAI-I got a LOT from that book. It really opened my eyes to the games I'd been playing for years.
YMWTAI hit the wrong letter.
Andrew, you had some good news. It all seems positive. Did you make the appointment with Jody? It's good you found a good book. My H had it but I never read it. I have this big collection of marriage-saving books. Ugh. DR was the best.
Yep. It's the book that LaBug suggested. Wish I had more time to actually read more of it. Main thing I keep telling myself that has resonated with me, is that I'm NOT a failure!
I'm hopeful to call in the next few minutes to try and setup an appt with Jody.
Last night we all went to S7s Christmas school play. W has been fairly nice, even reached out and rubbed my back for a moment. She was going to journal last night while I worked out, but fell asleep. She said she isn't feeling good sickness, but to be honest, I think a lot of has to do with the depression she is now dealing with. That too makes it a bit easier for me to try to continue to love her from a distance. I'll check back later on. Hope all is well with everyone!
Called and spoke with Karen briefly.
Jody and I might not be able to talk until next Friday per her schedule / mine.
Karen did say there was a Joanne available for tomorrow afternoon.
Thoughts? 8)
Andrew, I don't know Joanne. I do know Jody is awesome and she has a very solid background. I vote for waiting till Friday--your sitch seems to be stable enough to wait a week. But the decision is yours...
I called a few minutes ago and am set up for next Friday with Jody.
So last night W actually journaled. I wasn't watching her directly, but it seems as if she spent a good amount of time. Nice surprise. I know it's probably nothing wonderful like how she sees the error of her ways and needs to right her wrongs with me. I'm just happy to see her doing this incredibly challenging thing. It's a 180 for her.
So she came to bed and was super snuggly. I dreamed that we kissed; and she was tearfully asking for forgiveness / a 2nd chance. Let's hope that dream comes true.
. So S2 and I have been hanging out all day like usual on Fridays. W called and talked a little longer than normal. She did mention thoughts of whatever she journaled was making her want to cry. I listened / validated and she changed subjects. Later on I sent her a text about a FB video of S2 singing and dancing that should make her smile.
Also, a friend of mine texted me with an extra ticket to a hockey game tonight. I'm going to go. W thought is go out tomorrow, but is fine with me hung. A nice little mix up to the routine. Also, it allow us to take our Christmas shopping trip tomorrow night instead of Sunday. Dependent on us getting a sitter. So we will see what happens.
Yeah! I'm so glad you're going to talk to Jody! She'll help a ton. You'll see!!
All positive interactions. Yeah, again! Have fun at the hockey game (excellent GAL activity) and Christmas Shopping. And continue being patient.
I look forward to what Jody recommends. Your sitch sounds tricky. Enjoy the rest of the weekend in the meantime.
Andrew, I am guessing that things are going pretty well right now. Or so I hope! Put down all your questions for Jody. The first meeting will be really productive, even if you have to spend some time explaining your sitch.
((((((())))))
I'm compiling a list of Qs for Jody, and will definitely share what comes of our first convo.
I had a good time at the hockey game. Sat, depression took over my W (i kept a PMA). Sunday we went shopping. We had fun. W did make the comment that it was kind of weird. I agreed but said let's have fun, and so we did.
Mon W was a little distant but nice. Last night she was more withdrawn and seemingly secretive / guarded with her phone, bit more than nice before we went to bed ( no cuddling though). Today so far, she's been distant. But we'll see what comes of the rest of the night.
As for myself, I've been good and I've been having some intrusive thoughts (PA / OM), and questioning how much time ill continue along this path. I've been exercising patience and am reminded of how this is difficult to.do.
Great! Putting together your comments/ Qs will really help.
Tell me what behaviors make you think she's distant. Have you noticed anything that draws her in? This is a good thing to think about, so you can do more of what works.
The intrusive thoughts/patience running out will come and go, as you know. I'm kind of glad I'm not in that stage anymore, even though it'd be nice to not have those D papers filed.
Hang in there. You're doing so well! I was thinking this AM that if my H had a tenth of your drive to make your M work, he and I would be happy together now. Your W is a lucky woman.
Afa - Just read your entire thread (all 19 pages). There is a ton of good info from the vets in this post!!!
I just wanted to say it sounds like you are doing really good in a pretty tough sitch. Just keep up the good work and PMA. I'll be tracking from now on and trying to give some encouragement. I really relate to the emotional roller coaster you're on.
Tori,
W sitting and being sucked into the iPad and her phone while in the same room. Not talking really unless I start a conversation. Then she reciprocates. Not trying to mindread. She denies anything wrong, "just sick". Our house has been sharing a cold lately, so maybe I'm thinking too much.
I'm keeping most of my neurotic thoughts to myself and focusing ob other things. Can't say anything really that is drawing her in the past few days.
Glad my thoughts are part of a stage, normal at least.
You flatter me so much with your compliments. Want her cell # so you can tell her? Lol.
Spartan,
Thank you for reading up on my sich...all 19 pages of this one. I agree that I have lots of good advice. I don't know where I'd be without it. Thank you for your words of encouragement too. Stop by as often as you'd like.
Update
Busy day at work for me. W asks me to pick her up from her work party. Invites me to hang out, "since I know everyone.". So I run an errand or two and then go. It was weird b/c I sat with her and 2 of her close friends. Each know most of everything (minus my side of the sich). Anyways, 1 of them thanks for me for a condolence message I sent her months ago when her father passed away. She then went on to tell me how she's struggling to cope / admit it and deal with the pain. I listen and validate.
. She and her H aren't doing so well either, "not enough space to work on stuff". I respond, "Dint give up". She asks if I have, and I chuckle. Not yet.
. I also offer her books, or someone just to talk to if she ever wants. Other than that convo, I present myself as the fun loving, great guy and make several jokes that everyone laughs at. Score for me in front of the friends to show W and them I'm a great guy. Now to prove that to myself ....
Andrew, how did the meeting with Jody go? Any breakthroughs?
Thinking of you and hoping it helped!
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