New here but ran into the site recently and a lot of the info looks good. I’m about half way through the DB book (just past 180 deg section) and it’s making sense because what I’ve been trying obviously isn’t working (or I wouldn’t be here). Here’s my story (sorry for book)
My wife and I have been married 15 years and together for 20. Met freshman year of college, moved in together our sophomore year, so basically went from parents to each other. We both bring a lot of baggage into the marriage and we’ve dealt with it since the start. My dad walked out on us when I was 3 and I never really got over it. I had all the symptoms of growing up without a dad: fear of abandonment, control issues, lack of trust, and not knowing what a husband/ man should act like. My mom over-compensated in raising me and always made me feel like I was right which led to me having a rather large ego and always feeling like I was right and everyone else around me needed to change to see it my way (many of these things are new revelations, more on this later). Since my mom raised me I’m more talkative about feelings and emotions then most guys. Rather than stonewall an argument I’d much rather get it all out and work through the issue. Both my wife’s parents are alcoholics and have been since she was born. She grew up as a codependent (never rock the boat, better to lie then hear the lectures, shut down if questioned rather than voice her opinion, doesn’t show feelings (emotionless) and she never really received love from either parent). Her dad was also a control freak and most consider him a narcissist. She also tends to see the negative side of things and rarely remembers anything good. About 4 years ago her parents and my wife had a big blow up and they haven’t talked since which has been tough on her because it split up their family. Her older sister sided with parents to stay in the money and her younger sister chose her because she felt same way about the parents.
Obviously you can see that our issues don’t gel well together (talk vs stonewall, trust issues vs lying, control vs. feeling controlled, etc…). Somehow we’ve managed to stay together for 15 years of marriage and are raising 2 great kids (D7 and S4). Our parenting strategies work very well together and it’s a strength of our marriage.
About 8 years ago I almost filed for divorce because she was having an emotional affair with a guy from her work. She came back and stopped talking with him, we got pregnant (well she did), and the marriage eventually went back to normal but we didn’t really resolve any issues. I had lost some trust that I’m not sure I ever regained. About 2 years ago we were struggling in our marriage and our D kept asking about church. My wife’s friend convinced us to go to a service and it changed our lives. Felt like they were talking directly to us and we’ve been going ever since. She never was religious before and her parents are atheists; I was raised in church but never had a relationship with Jesus (I knew the stories but that’s all they were to me). Within 6 months we were both saved and this April we were baptized together. We are in small groups, active in the church community, volunteer together, everything and I felt like it was making us a stronger couple. The underlying issues were there but felt like we were making things work.
In June we celebrated our 15 year anniversary on a weekend cruise and had a great time together. Three weeks ago we went to Chicago with family and had a good time. When we got back she told me she was getting coffee with a female friend one morning. I was driving by a Starbucks she doesn’t go to and there she was walking outside with a guy. Obviously I was enraged. I stopped the car, told her to get in, and completely went off. Telling her I thought we were done with all this, asked how could I ever trust her again, etc… I went away that weekend and when I got back on Sunday night she told me she had filed for divorce. Since then my life has been a roller coaster. She swears the guy is just a friend. I know where she is most of the time (either home, work, or with kids) so I honestly don’t think anything physical has happened but obviously something isn’t right. She said she lied because she didn’t want to rock the boat and have to answer questions of why she was going for coffee with a guy.
The last 3 weeks I’ve done some heavy internal reflection and I now realize a lot of my issues (a lot listed above) which no matter what she had said before I never truly saw. The biggest one was that I always thought she was so screwed up that once her counselors got through to her she would see how great a guy I was and everything would be fine. I now know that’s absurd. I have a ton of issues that I should have been working on all these years. I was really hard on myself after realizing these things but now I know them and am truly working on them. I’m also scared to death for my kids because they are both very happy and think we have the perfect family. My wife is in denial and thinks they’ll be just fine and divorce will only affect them for a couple weeks.
So last week I read her 2 lists, 1 with the things I felt like I had done wrong and was responsible for in the marriage. This is the list I’m currently working on improving myself and I apologized to her (almost cried while reading it because it makes me sick). This list was a LOT longer than I expected it to be. The 2nd list is things that I admire about her. I’ve never really provided her much feedback and according to her I’ve beaten her down over the years instead of built her up. I feel some is me and some is the way she reacts to situations is just very different than how I do. That night she seemed very receptive and was nice the next day. 2 days later I wrote her a letter reiterating what I was working on, how I saw what our new marriage could be, and asked for another chance. I asked if we could start couples counseling because she was dead set against it. The next day she told me she still has no interest in counseling or reconciling. She said her tank is empty and she has nothing left to give. I don’t think she’s ever really tried and she has admitted as much during other conversations because she doesn’t want to get hurt or end up in her parent’s marriage. Her cousin just got divorced from an alcoholic, dead beat dad and she said he did all the same stuff after she filed (letters, promises to change, etc…) so she thinks this is just a ploy by me to get control again. She also said it was a slap in the face that it took her filing for divorce for me to finally want to change. I know I’ve screwed up and should have shown her more love and given her the support she’s needed. I told her I can’t explain why it took this and I said I wish I could change the past but I can’t, I can only work on today and the future.
On top of all this my wife has a disease that limits her (sometimes very exhausted, always tired, muscle soreness, etc…) so I do a lot of the daily chores around the house. I don’t mind doing them and I’m scared if she goes through divorce she will get really run down. I think she’s in a MLC because she keeps saying she doesn’t want her parents marriage, she wants freedom, and doesn’t want to be married/ tied down to anyone.
What should I do? We’re still living together and neither of us plans to move before the divorce is final (at least 160 days away). I started seeing a Christian counselor to work through my issues. I’ve also started reading a lot of self-help books (DB, 5 love languages, Changes That Heal, and of course the Bible). I’m praying all the time and I feel strength from God but still have a lot of emotionally bad days. My Christian friends have been extremely supportive and I talk to at least one of them every day. She wants nothing to do with me and every time I try to talk or ask her about anything she gets mad. She’s also distancing herself from kids when I’m around. I know I should give her space but it’s so hard. I didn’t mention I’m an engineer and my normal function is to fix things (which also pisses her off). I was thinking of being normal when kids are around (they have no idea on any of this) and when they go to bed go to different floor and not talk to her; I’ll just read, workout, whatever. I also thought I’ll plan more things to do with kids and just tell her we’re going and let her decide to come or not. I also considered stopping chores and make her do more stuff that I’ve normally been doing but I hate the idea of her suffering physically because stress affects her illness.
To be clear I want to save my marriage and show my wife that I am changing. I want to finally show her support and serve her to give her the freedom to be who she wants to be. I don’t want to manipulate or fake anything. I don’t even care about the other guy so please don’t tell me they’re having an affair because if they are I’d just blame myself for not being man she needed.
Welcome to the board.
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Stick to this thread until 100 posts for your story.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
Use it wisely.
Knowledge is Power.
No more relationship talks. No more letters, telling her you're changing or asking for another chance. Let your actions do the talking. Give her space and time. There are no magic words or actions to make her reconsider, so spend your energy on the only thing you can control; yourself.
Weekend update: I started my 180's on Thursday and have completely stopped discussing anything marriage or our kids futures which is hard because I always seem to want to talk. Friday she had to work late and said she was going out with friends after. I didn't respond to that, only told her kids and I were going to my buddies fire fighter school graduation and I'd get them to bed. To my surprise she was home before us (by 9:00).
Saturday she got called into work so kids and I planned a day together. Around 4:00 she sent me text saying she was done and asked what we were doing. I'd usually drop what we were doing to accommodate her but instead replied with list of errands we were running. To my shock she asked if she could join us so she met up with us and had dinner. Yesterday we all went to church then went swimming with kids at gym. Before swimming she got on the treadmill next to me which she hasn't done in a long time.
We still don't really talk and there seems to be an underlying tension in the air. She also told me she was going out of town in 2 weekends with her cousin to visit her grandpa who is really sick, rather then ask any questions or details (which I would have done in past) I just said "that will be nice for you guys to see him". I don't think she's had any change of mindset but I was surprised by a few things. I'm continuing to read self help books and the Bible. I realize when I'm not trying to do things for her but doing them for me I feel much better. It's hard to do though since I've been doing the other stuff for so long but no one said the 180 would be easy. Detaching is also really hard since we're still in house and doing things together with kids.
I had all the symptoms of growing up without a dad...
First, just forget all this ancient history of how you guys were brought up. Let me assure you, EVERYONE had issues in childhood. Counseling that spends endless time dredging up old junk like this is just a waste of time. DBing is solutions-based, this means focusing on the future, not the past.
Our parenting strategies work very well together and it’s a strength of our marriage.
Great parents often make poor spouses. My W and I are a great example. We spent all our time focusing on the kids and no time for our R. Now we've got 3 awesome kids living with the fallout of a broken M.
I was driving by a Starbucks she doesn’t go to and there she was walking outside with a guy. Obviously I was enraged.
"Obviously"? Why would that be obvious? My response would have been to wave to W and say hello, then ask her later who it was she was with and give her a chance to explain. Is your relationship such that she can't even talk to or be seen with men because you'll fly into an uncontrollable rage? If so, do you think this is normal?
So last week I read her 2 lists, 1 with the things I felt like I had done wrong and was responsible for in the marriage. The 2nd list is things that I admire about her.
OK, well that's fine but I'd just leave that be now. She knows what you plan on working on, no need to keep beating her over the head with lists. Now what you have to do is show her through actions that you're serious, and you must have patience because it's going to take a lot of time. We're not talking days or weeks, we're talking many months.
I’ve never really provided her much feedback and according to her I’ve beaten her down over the years instead of built her up. I feel some is me and some is the way she reacts to situations is just very different than how I do.
So on the one hand you say you've made this list of your faults and are serious about repairing those faults, but on the other hand you want to lay the blame for most of the faults on your W and just take responsibility for "some" of it. DB'ing is focusing on YOU and YOUR problems. NOT assigning percentages of blame.
I don’t think she’s ever really tried and she has admitted as much during other conversations because she doesn’t want to get hurt or end up in her parent’s marriage.
There's the blaming again. Every time you assign her blame you're trying to control the situation. Your heavy-handed control is what landed you here to begin with. Your controlling nature is why she was afraid to tell you about her unhappiness and afraid to tell you she was having coffee with a male friend. Changing your controlling nature should be your priority 180. And listen up, when you tell her "I've changed, I want another chance, let's go to counseling" you know what she hears? "I haven't changed, I'm still controlling and manipulating, you want to leave and I don't want you to so I'm going to tell you I'm changing to stop you."
so she thinks this is just a ploy by me to get control again.
Yeah, and is she right? Ask yourself. Really, really think about that. I was somewhat controlling too, and I know how hard it is for a controller to discover that they are a controller.
I said I wish I could change the past but I can’t, I can only work on today and the future.
Yes, good. Make this your mantra!
and I’m scared if she goes through divorce she will get really run down.
Her problem, not yours.
I think she’s in a MLC because she keeps saying she doesn’t want her parents marriage, she wants freedom, and doesn’t want to be married/ tied down to anyone.
Sounds more like WAS.
What should I do? We’re still living together and neither of us plans to move before the divorce is final (at least 160 days away).
Count yourself lucky. You've got a lot of time. Show her 180's. Work on yourself. Make yourself stronger, more confident, more attractive, a H only a fool would leave.
I’m praying all the time and I feel strength from God but still have a lot of emotionally bad days.
I've believed in God and Christ since I was very, very young and have walked with them for all these decades. Since you're relatively newly converted, let me share my views with you. Too many people use God as a crutch, they convert and then they pray for all their problems to go away and they expect instant relief. But God doesn't work that way. "Problems" are there for a reason, you can't wish them away. God expects to see you work through your trials and grow. He doesn't put you through suffering for no reason. And he doesn't do it so he can test you, he already knows you through and through. He does it to teach YOU something about YOURSELF. In your current trial, he's going to teach you STRENGTH and PATIENCE. Remember, you are on his timeline, he's not on yours. Pray for understanding of his will, don't pray and tell him what to do. Pray for strength and patience, not for this to go away overnight.
She wants nothing to do with me and every time I try to talk or ask her about anything she gets mad.
Then pull back. Detach. Give her space. Focus on you.
I didn’t mention I’m an engineer and my normal function is to fix things (which also pisses her off).
Women don't want fixing, they want validation.
Thanks for responses. AnotherStander, I see what you mean by my blaming tone and controlling nature in my initial post. My control issues are the main thing I'm working on. Does anyone have any good book recommendations on that subject?
I also appreciate what you wrote about religion and God teaching me something about myself. It's also a good reminder that I'm on his timeline, not mine.
Woke up feeling down today for no apparent reason so figured why not post something and maybe get some support
. 2 nights ago my wife's grandpa took a turn for the worse so her and her sister took a day trip down to see him. Through entire thing I was very supportive, rearranged my schedule to take care of kids/ appointments and she actually thanked me a couple different times. She got home late, grabbed some cold pizza, and brought it in family room where I was and ate it (she's never done that before). We had a small talk about her family that went well, I let her do most the talking. She slept in bed again and actually snuggled up against me a few times. The odd part was she said after she let dog out at 4:00 she didn't sleep well and that's when I noticed her close to me. Those things should make me happy to feel like some progress is being made but like I said I'm really down today. Not sure if I'm reading into things, if she's starting to see my changes, or if it's nothing at all. This helpless feeling of being in limbo with no real feedback is so tough, I really want her to tell me where she's at...Patience is such a tough thing to learn and adhere to but I have to let her come back to me (right?):)
My control issues are the main thing I'm working on. Does anyone have any good book recommendations on that subject?
I haven't read it, but a lot of people here recommend "Codependent No More". Here's a blurb from Wiki about the book content:
The term codependent originated as a way to describe people who use relationships with others as their sole source of value and identity. It comes directly out of Alcoholics Anonymous, part of a dawning realization that the problem was not solely the addict, but also the family and friends who constitute a network for the alcoholic. Codependents often end up in relationships with drug (including alcohol) addicted spouses or lovers. In the book, Beattie explains that a codependent is a person who believes their happiness is derived from other people or one person in particular, and eventually the codependent becomes obsessed with controlling the behavior of the people/person that they believe is making them happy.
An awful lot of similarities between my sitch and yours.
DR is a good start...follow up with The Five Love Languages. It's another eye opener if you haven't thought of things that way before. Codependent No More is really good too, but I'd put that 3rd on the list.
I had all the symptoms of growing up without a dad...
First, just forget all this ancient history of how you guys were brought up. Let me assure you, EVERYONE had issues in childhood. Counseling that spends endless time dredging up old junk like this is just a waste of time. DBing is solutions-based, this means focusing on the future, not the past.
I'm going to disagree slightly with this. For me, it was important for to understand where some of my feelings, ideas and habits came from. There was some healing I had to do there in terms of forgiving my parents and such. Afterwards though, you have to make a conscious decision, without the baggage of your history....who do I want to be? What kind of a H? What kind of a father? There are no excuses to be made....you decide, then you do it. You have bad habits, but you can decide to change them.
As for your W's history, again, it may help you understand her point of view and perhaps be more patient with her, but you can't fix her stuff, so leave that part of it alone.
Do not play the blame game...it just takes you down an old, destructive path. Own your part, and stop. For example, you say "I am sorry I behaved this way. I am insecure and trying to deal with it. I hope you can forgive me.
But your behavior is unacceptable."
"But" negates everything you said before that, so you might as well just said the last sentence. So focus on you, what you can do, what you can own, what decisions you can make.
All the other points AS made, I strongly agree with. Again, focus on you right now, be happy and upbeat around your W, GAL, do some things you've always wanted to. If your sitch is as similar as it sounds, nothing will be more helpful to you than appearing confident and happy around your W. It's probably something you haven't done much of throughout the years.
I'm going to disagree slightly with this. For me, it was important for to understand where some of my feelings, ideas and habits came from. There was some healing I had to do there in terms of forgiving my parents and such. Afterwards though, you have to make a conscious decision, without the baggage of your history....who do I want to be? What kind of a H? What kind of a father? There are no excuses to be made....you decide, then you do it. You have bad habits, but you can decide to change them.
Thanks for saying that. There are different approaches, the trick is to find the one that allows the client to make progress. I, too needed to dig up a lot of garbage before I could plant new grass.
I went to a solutions-based counselor a few years ago and it didn't give me what I needed at that time.
The yardstick should be, Are you moving forward?
Breakdown - I read your sitch and there are an awful lot of similarities. In one of your posts you mentioned you read a good book about trust, do you remember what book? That's another issue I've always struggled with, it just isn't a natural feeling for me and I have to force myself.
I think the answer is yes but is it normal for no response or discussions about situation from W? I think she's noticing some changes because of some comments she's made and her saying thank you a lot this week (doesn't seem like a big thing but I don't remember getting many over last couple years). I'm GAL with things I want to do. I realize my wild party days are behind me so I'm enjoying just reading, hunting again, and playing the occasional video game after kids go to bed. We haven't said a word about marriage or divorce since our Halloween night fight and wasn't sure if this is a good sign or not. I know I shouldn't say anything but I'm not sure she will ever because not her style. She's also the type that once she's made a decision it's done and usually no turning back which is worrisome in this situation.
I am feeling good about me for the first time in a long time. It's nice making myself happy doing what I want and not worrying about what she thinks or letting her moods affect mine. Kids are seeing it also because we've been having an absolute blast. W has actually joined us a couple times which was fun.
Also have a question about Thanksgiving. My mom is having it as usual on Thursday and I doubt right now my W will go. I personally don't want to go because there is always drama that I can't stand (brother and aunts aren't right in head). We usually go anyway as a family, make an appearance, and get out asap. What do you guys think I should do? Take kids down with offer for wife to go knowing she likely won't and she'll be alone on holiday or cook turkey myself and try to have nice, relaxing family day. I'm torn. I would rather just have a Thanksgiving at home with my family but not sure if that's best for current situation???
In one of your posts you mentioned you read a good book about trust, do you remember what book?
It was The Courage to Trust, but I'd put that as 4th behind the others mentioned. It helped me with negative thoughts more than anything else. We talked a lot about trust and the fact that it's a choice in our Retrouvaille, so that helped too. Still, it's a struggle at times.
We haven't said a word about marriage or divorce since our Halloween night fight and wasn't sure if this is a good sign or not. I know I shouldn't say anything but I'm not sure she will ever because not her style.
I wouldn't bring it up unless she does at this point.
She's also the type that once she's made a decision it's done and usually no turning back which is worrisome in this situation.
I know exactly what you mean. My W is the same way. Honestly, I think it's been one of our problems in reconciling, as she feels like she's already made the decision to D and now she has to follow through. But this is where applying pressure hurts you. If you start talking about your M, she'll likely default to D because she's already said it. My W continues to do that.
I would rather just have a Thanksgiving at home with my family but not sure if that's best for current situation???
If neither you nor your W enjoy going, then I wouldn't do it. Life's too short. Do what you want to do. But don't do it because you think you're doing your W a favor...do it because it's what you want.
In one of your posts you mentioned you read a good book about trust, do you remember what book?
It was The Courage to Trust, but I'd put that as 4th behind the others mentioned. It helped me with negative thoughts more than anything else. We talked a lot about trust and the fact that it's a choice in our Retrouvaille, so that helped too. Still, it's a struggle at times.
We haven't said a word about marriage or divorce since our Halloween night fight and wasn't sure if this is a good sign or not. I know I shouldn't say anything but I'm not sure she will ever because not her style.
I wouldn't bring it up unless she does at this point.
She's also the type that once she's made a decision it's done and usually no turning back which is worrisome in this situation.
I know exactly what you mean. My W is the same way. Honestly, I think it's been one of our problems in reconciling, as she feels like she's already made the decision to D and now she has to follow through. But this is where applying pressure hurts you. If you start talking about your M, she'll likely default to D because she's already said it. My W continues to do that.
I would rather just have a Thanksgiving at home with my family but not sure if that's best for current situation???
If neither you nor your W enjoy going, then I wouldn't do it. Life's too short. Do what you want to do. But don't do it because you think you're doing your W a favor...do it because it's what you want.
Sorry, I hit the wrong button on the quote screen. My W is the exact same. When her mind is made up, it is over. Even IF she is having 2nd thoughts, the thought of changing her mind is stronger than the other thoughts.
Sorry, I hit the wrong button on the quote screen. My W is the exact same. When her mind is made up, it is over. Even IF she is having 2nd thoughts, the thought of changing her mind is stronger than the other thoughts.
The key is changing her feelings about you. Understand attraction, romance, love and how men and women are different.
180 your thinking get her to chase you. Understand the why of this then figure out how.
Hi Grateful -
What are YOUR goals, then?
(What do you want, why are you here)
Thanks for the posts, over the last week my 180's seem to be having mixed results. I've been happier and more energetic around the house (even when it's the exact opposite of how I feel). I've also stepped up my help around the house. I think before it was a 50/50 split but lately I've been doing a lot more cooking, picking up, laundry, etc... A lot of the stuff I would only do if asked and she's thanked me a couple different times through the week. I'm finished with DB and almost through DR. I started reading LL a couple years ago but didn't make it far so that's next book on list.
Another small victory (for me at least) was Friday she went out with some friends and in the past my insecurities would have stressed me out and I'd have a pity party while she was gone that she didn't want to go out with me (I know stupid but I'm being honest). This time I didn't have those thoughts at all, I just played with kids then did a few things around house and had a nice night. In the past I'd wait up for her and start the 20 question game that never went well. I was going hunting with my son the next morning so said screw it and went to bed before she got home. She got home about 11:30 and I think it threw her for a loop that I was asleep. She came in bedroom and made as much noise as she could getting ready for bed. I just laid there and never said a word. Next day I asked how her night was and that was it.
We went to gym on Saturday and she left one empty machine between us (I was already on one when she walked up). Stupid mind game but for whatever reason I was steaming. Thankfully I didn't say anything about it the rest of the day but my body was sore as hell Sunday because I went a little crazy with workout
. She could tell I was upset but at least I didn't start a fight, she obviously didn't say anything about it.
Yesterday morning she had coffee with a friend before church and her friend ambushed her and really laid into her. I saw wife at church and could tell she was upset. I asked a couple little questions and she started talking, I just listened and didn't give any opinions and only said encouraging things for her. Felt bad for her. I was glad that she actually talked to me about it rather then say nothing was wrong. I think that's progress???
Yesterday (Sunday) she had to work until 7:30 so kids wanted to make special dinner. I made up chicken parmigiana, a dessert and kids put together a skit to act like we were an Italian restaurant. She ends up coming home late due to case running over but she seemed to like it. She thanked us, kids mostly. I'm probably a little over sensitive but would have been nice for her to show a little more appreciation because I busted my ass yesterday. Oh well, got over it and didn't affect night, just posting how I felt.
The kids and I are having a great time together and hopefully she's seeing some changes in my behavior. Some are coming pretty natural and others I have to really work at. It's still mind blowing that we don't talk about anything except kids and small talk about her work. Nothing about M and she hasn't asked anything about my life in weeks.
Oversensitive today...
Went home for lunch and forgot wife was there (day off). She was on phone (with her cousin who just finished her 2nd divorce). She didn't hear me walk in and I heard her say "maybe that's why we marry idiots". I didn't let on that I heard anything when she eventually saw me in kitchen and we did our small talk but for some stupid reason it got in my head and I can't stop thinking about it. I know rule 32 but knowing my wife 20 years now I've never heard her talk badly about me with someone else. Obviously we've had our share of fights and I'm on these boards so I'm sure she has (and God knows I've done the same in the past) but I've never actually heard it. I guess ignorance is bliss because I never really even thought about it before; probably due to the inflated ego I had before this sitch. It just sucked to hear it come out of her mouth. I know in big picture it's nothing, I shouldn't let it get to me, and a lot of you guys hear worse daily but for whatever reason I can't get it out of my head this afternoon. The real job is to stay cool tonight when we're home together all night and not make something out of nothing. Just another blow to my already deflated ego. Guess I need to get used to it on this marathon I'm on. Humility is a good lesson I've learned from this experience. This ride has me on such an emotional roller coaster, I feel like I've turned into a woman (no disrespect to anyone, I was just a guys guy with a touch of sensitivity before all this happened).
Another small victory (for me at least) was Friday she went out with some friends and in the past my insecurities would have stressed me out and I'd have a pity party while she was gone that she didn't want to go out with me (I know stupid but I'm being honest). This time I didn't have those thoughts at all, I just played with kids then did a few things around house and had a nice night. In the past I'd wait up for her and start the 20 question game that never went well. I was going hunting with my son the next morning so said screw it and went to bed before she got home. She got home about 11:30 and I think it threw her for a loop that I was asleep. She came in bedroom and made as much noise as she could getting ready for bed. I just laid there and never said a word. Next day I asked how her night was and that was it.
This is great. You are making progress!
Have you spent any time trying to understand your insecurities? Are you addressing them, or only the behavior related to them?
The kids and I are having a great time together and hopefully she's seeing some changes in my behavior. Some are coming pretty natural and others I have to really work at. It's still mind blowing that we don't talk about anything except kids and small talk about her work. Nothing about M and she hasn't asked anything about my life in weeks.
Your changes are for you, not a reaction from your W. At first, she won't trust that they are real (it can take a long long time for them to believe it). And then, she'll probably be mad because you waited so long to make them. It's a process...just keep working on you and try to be patient with your W.
She didn't hear me walk in and I heard her say "maybe that's why we marry idiots".
Take this for what it is and let it slide off your back. More than anything, she is empathizing with her cousin. You have made mistakes, but you are addressing them....most people never do, so take some solace in that.
Humility is a good lesson I've learned from this experience. This ride has me on such an emotional roller coaster, I feel like I've turned into a woman
LOL...this is so funny. I know exactly what you mean. I have become much more in touch with my feelings over the last year or two and I express them, instead of bottling them up. I don't expect my W to do anything about them, but I don't want to build resentment, so I just say "that made me feel x" and go on.
It's such a 180 for me, my W is still struggling with how to react to it. She got so used to me being this hard @sshole, that now when I say something hurt my feelings she's just confused. Part of it for me is trying to teach my kids different than my parents taught me. It's breaking that cycle so my kids don't take the same baggage into their relationships that I did.
Overall, you sound like you are really doing well. Keep it up!
Not doing good anymore...
So Monday and yesterday we were getting along a little better and she sent several texts yesterday and seemed pleasant. My hopes weren't really up but I was happy that we were talking. She had her codependency group after work so didn't see her for dinner. She ended up getting home 2 hours late without a call or a text which I now think was her ammo to start the fight (yes I bit). I wasn't bothered by her being late because I was busy around the house. I happened to be in kitchen getting water for bed when she got home. I should have just said goodnight because she had a look in her eyes but instead I figured the messages during day were pleasant so I said "How was your group?". With that she went completely off to point I didn't even recognize her. She said she doesn't have to report to me about what she does or how things are, asked if I understood what divorce meant, starting telling me everything that I've done wrong in my life, and blamed me for everything wrong in her life, she even said something that happened before I was around over 20 years ago. She went so far to say that for a while she believed her genetic disease was caused by my poisoning her. It was like nothing I've ever heard or seen. Half way through her rant I said in as calm a voice as possible 'all i asked about was your group for a little small talk, never brought up any of that other stuff'. I remembered the rule to not believe anything she says but I broke a rule by not just walking away; instead near the end when I couldn't take it anymore I called her out on how stupid she sounded and she needs to look in mirror and take some of the blame. I know stupid... I told her I didn't need her telling me again all the things that are wrong with me that I'm well aware of them and accept my responsibility for where we are. All in all it was a very bad night and I didn't sleep at all. I spent night reminding myself of the good things I've done because words sure can hurt from someone you love, even when you know most of it is BS.
This morning her group book was out and I broke another rule by looking at it. I know I suck!!! I admit I was questioning some of the stuff she said and if she believe it was true and I was hoping to find anything in there that said the opposite of what she yelled at me for to preserve some hope. Instead in there she admitted to lying all the time and it being so easy for her she does it automatically with most everyone in her life, said she was a "terrible wife", and admitted to cheating in the past (entire list had 10-12 pretty bad things, many of which I didn't know about). The cheating part is what I don't think I can just get over now that I have even more proof unless she fully admitted it and wanted to work on things which I don't see happening. I can't be a doormat and let her treat me like this now that I know she understands the issues and just doesn't care about me or our family.
We talked today about something with kids sports and I said I wanted to talk about us. I didn't let on to reading book but I did say after last nights talk I wanted to tell the kids soon because I now believe there is no chance for us and I'm done lying about the situation. I also told her I was considering moving out. I've kind of rethought that through the day but I think it would be easier on me to not be around her, kids wouldn't take that well though. I also said that we need to have some boundaries and if she wants to talk then no bringing up past and blaming me for everything. I also told her don't expect me to bring anything up because I'm done. Also said she better stop just expecting me to cover everything because I'm done lying to friends and kids and doing whatever she asks.
I'm so ticked and hurt. From reading books I know a lot of this is 'normal' WAS behavior and I know I handled it pretty badly last night but man it hurts. I'm starting to think it's just not worth it and I'm seeing a lot more bad with her and marriage then good. Maybe I'm starting to rewrite history... Right now I no longer want to work on my marriage. Very sad and depressing 24 hours.
To end my post I spent the last day and a half thinking more and I've decided I'll never be able to trust her so I'm no longer trying to reconcile the marriage. Spent yesterday with friends who enlightened me to a few other things she's done over the years. One guy said it was killing him not telling me his story but I was always so gung-ho to have a good marriage he didn't want to ruin it. Little disappointed in him but I understand where he was coming from (I doubt I would have believed him anyway because I always gave her the benefit of the doubt...). Just feels like last 20 years of my life were a lie and I'm really worried about my kids. I have a strong family and friend network and will continue to work on myself so I know I'll be fine. I'll also do everything possible to ensure my kids have the best dad they can and pray God watches over them during the other times.
Good luck to all you guys still fighting the fight. I pray that it works out best for each of you.
Spartan,
Your wife sounds a lot like mine. The blame part that is. From what I can read off my wife's rants - when it happens - is that it's easier to throw the pain they hold on to so much toward someone else. It lessens the burden for a moment. Unfortunately for them, they throw it at people they are close to. And just as bad, that pain never fully gets released. Then they eventually feel bad for what they've done. It's pretty much a viscous cycle of torment.
My wife left me for a man who has everything she was missing in her life when she was with me.
He allows her to be an addict - if she chooses.
He has money. I am broke now that she lost two good jobs and was out of work for years and the bills pilled on us. Now I'm close to losing my home. She is secure. He told her he was going to give her a lot of money for Christmas shopping. My kids are excited!!! YAY!!!!
He's more laid back and let's her do whatever, whenever. I was more on the ball and wanted her to stay motivated. Continue with NA and get back into nursing.
She told me it was everything she's ever wanted in a relationship. "Ever Wanted!"
He does everything for her. I think some of it is because he feels like he has to. Sort of feeds into her so he won't lose her. That's what I did for years when she first had an affair. It got me here - separated. So good luck to him.
The great thing that came out of all this. My relationship with God. And my relationship with my kids. Now the relationship with my mother. All of which became nonexistent while I buried myself into my marriage while she buried herself into a hole and built up walls around me.
In all the years I poured myself into "us" she never broke down and apologized for the mess and her affair(s). I got blamed for everything. Guilt is one of the heaviest yokes to bare. But one of the toughest to let go of.
Last week I made a mistake and mentioned the house situation to my daughter. I have no one to talk to right now and I was just hurt when I got the letter that we may have to forfeit it. My daughter called her mom, then she called me. She laid into me like I was beating our kid. And it was the most perplexing thing. She didn't come at me with reason, but over and over and over and over all she said was, "How could you?!?" I never got a chance to explain or apologize. She just kept saying it. There was this sound in her voice that seemed to me that she was releasing some inner torment. Finally! Mr. Perfect Dad screwed up and I get belt him good for it.
Then I snapped and gave it all back (I was convicted big time later). I told her all the times she messed up from drugs and job loss and financial pain and wallowing in her pity and her affairs. She came at me with my self absorbed uselessness and desires and how I was never there for her and how it put her in another man's arms. So I decided to go for big air and asked her how could she dare be arrested in front of our kids.
And that was that. Game over. Love lost. Everything I worked for, out. The towel was thrown in and the refs started pulling me off of her.
Spartan, I'm sorry things took a turn for the worse, but I actually think you handled things fairly well considering. None of us are perfect, so we're not going to do it perfect every time.
I think the fact that your W is working thru her own baggage is a huge positive. There may be things you aren't aware of, things you aren't happy about, and things that hurt in all of that, but the fact that she is facing them and trying to change really puts you in a far better place than most of the folks here. I would expect it to be a difficult time for her as she faces her own demons and that means, difficult for you as well.
I think it's important to realize that love and trust are choices. You certainly can do these things if you choose to. They may not be easy, but they are do-able.
Hang in there...continue to work on you and be strong for your family.
That's it? That's all you have in you? Even though you were forgiven by God, and even though the bible says that we have to forgive others......you can't forgive your wife? Yes, you do have an over-sized "ego"......but the word that God used in the bible is not ego.....it's pride!
gotta agree with Sandi here...as soon as you saw OM, even one from the past, who she had clearly worked through and chose to stay with you even if she's revising the past (they all do and so do we...so are you now, b/c you're hurt)
You say you've "had enough" and "can't forgive", although in truth you know, deep down, you played a role in her being in the arms of OM.
This is your wounded ego talking...and deciding important issues that will have generational affects. Your children AND THEIRS, will suffer for this. Instead you might be able to leave a legacy of committment, forgiveness and redemption.
Instead, you're "Done"...all because of something that isn't even happening NOW.
And one small but possible telling thing,
You are "now" doing 50% of the housework --but she's got a diagnosed illness that prevents her from doing much, and you said you feared sep b/c it'll wear her out. Well...
Why weren't you doing most of it before? Why only half NOW?
Anyhow, if your wounded pride is too much for you to cope with while admitting your pride has been a problem causer
and your temper is still an issue, ("obviously enraged" that she had COFFEE w/OM was not a typical response. My h would never have reacted that way even at his worst.
He'd assume I ran into a guy or was friends with or networking...he knows he's the better choice and I'd be a fool to choose OM so maybe it's his security---and it's attractive, btw ) then you have a lot of things to still work on...
Well you said enough to her for now, that's for sure. I wouldn't move out without FIRST talking to a L so you are protected and not accused of abandonment. And I would NOT bring up the relationship again. Your threats to tell the kids are not going to keep the road home, paved and smooth....but it sounds as if you want to be punitive...right?
It's not your job to teach her a lesson or "show her the consequences" of her behavior...as my DB coach said, "life/God does that for them, not us"...
I'm not saying to lie for her but you can protect your kids and your w. NO ONE NEED know of her past indiscretions. You want her to take your list of flaws, add some of her own about you and then read it to them?? Oh, why not?
In MY own journal I wrote many things in 2005 that I believed THEN...and do not now believe. Some things I sort of believed but was just venting. You cannot hold onto her venting in her private diary...AND nothing is written in stone. We change and so do our feelings.
this is exacly why one of the rules is NOT TO SNOOP!!! It hurt your cause.
You kept pushing her for R talk instead of welcoming her silence. When you pushed for a good answer, instead of letting her come around, you cornered her into a decision you did NOT want...hence us telling you to back off. Ultimatums rarely work and then we're stuck with following through on what we DID NOT want...
You need to DB for real and THEN assess...
fwiw, I have 2 family members who divorced and remarried a few years later. But they changed THEMSELVES and not with the idea of reconciling...but with the idea of GAL and being happier people...which they were. and then they were better partners. But yes it happens. I'm hoping you'll really DB and give her some space and take some yourself, I found being apart helped me not lose my temper so much. And that helped us keep some civility which lead to us being relaxed in short spurts at first...and then to build on those times.
Stick to your plan of working on your flaws only & without regard to HERS so that no matter what, YOU do not end up here again in your next r...learn from your mistakes, be the best man YOU can be...
become a man only a fool would leave. And once you KNOW you have done that, then leave the results up to God and be at peace.
25yearsmlc can you check out my thread when you get a chance? Thx.
Spartan don't be so quick to give up. You are angry and hurting right now and thats what you are acting from. Step back and take a deep breath and work on your issues. If your W comes at you again tell her you will talk to her when she is calm then walk away go for a ride or whatever to remove yourself from the situation.
Wow, thanks for the constructive criticism
. I mean it, sometimes I need a swift kick to the backside.
I came back here to say I'm still around and trying to make it work even with the couple day back slide. Maybe the backslide is what I needed because the last few days I've really DB'd. I know it likely ruined any good that I did the previous couple weeks though. I feel almost indifferent to her right now and have no desire to talk about R or how she's feeling or what she's doing. I've also embraced the GAL and over last weekend went hunting twice, went to dinner with buddy, and saw a movie. My kids and I are still having a blast. We've always been close but now it just seems like it's on a new level of fun. I don't get it???
W and I did talk a little yesterday (she initiated it) and decided that neither of us are moving out before the house sells and we wouldn't put it on market until after holidays. We also decided to not tell the kids until we need to which will be sometime next year. FWIW, at start of conversation, before we decided not to tell them now, I told her we shouldn't go into any details about other person and if asked we could BOTH tell them about our issues/ reasons in our own words. I told her if asked I would tell them that I didn't treat their mom as good as I should have, I didn't build her up, and I didn't give her freedom (some toned down age appropriate version of that). I'm pretty open with kids and I'd have no issue knocking myself off the pedestal a little and telling them their dad isn't perfect. When I'm not angry venting on here believe me that I want no harm to come to my W's relationship with our kids and when rubber hits the road I wouldn't do anything to hurt that. In fact through this process my 7 year old has been making comments about why mom isn't around as much or why she's not being as nice to them and I've been defending my W and building her up. And before I get yelled at for that it was always my D bringing it up, I never talk down about my W with the kids. My guess is they'll be surprised when I tell them I haven't treated mom good because that's not what they see and I think my W would agree to that if she were on here. We've rarely had disagreements while kids were around and I'm guessing they'll be in complete shock. They think we're the perfect church going family
.
25yearsmic - I've said numerous times I admit my pride is an issue and I am working on it. Believe me I know I screwed up when I initially confronted her. I was really hurting that day because she blatantly lied about it that morning and there are a lot of unresolved issues like that from our past. I know I need to stop worrying about it and give her space to figure her things out and for the most part I've tried, minus the couple incidents on here which I deeply regret... I also do know a big part of her doing things is my fault for how I reacted/ treated her in the past and I'm trying to make changes in my life to limit those occurrences. I'm also truly trying to forgive her and I know very well what the Bible says about forgiving. Most everyone that knows the situation, many friends of my wife, have privately commented to me that I've been an inspiration to them in their walk and they aren't sure they could do what I've been doing and they are seeing the situation first hand. I know I'm no saint and don't really feel like an inspiration. Believe me, I take full responsibility for my actions and it kills me that I still screw up. With that I'd be lying if I said it's not hard staying the course when she has never shown any remorse or admitted to doing anything wrong. She's never forgiven me for anything I've done and repeatedly brings up the past and points out my issues. I know I have to stop thinking that way but it can be tough, especially with all the added stress of the situation. I just read some of my posts and you guys get mostly the venting on here, the majority of the time I'm working on my own stuff and she's doing her thing. I just need to make the 'majority of the time' the 'all the time'...
I'm also keeping a journal and I already don't believe some of the things I've written just a few weeks ago. I can believe that 5 years from now that a lot of it will sound like BS so I get your point on what she wrote. I'm done snooping!
I don't remember what I wrote regarding housework but it sounds like I didn't say it correctly. I've never done less then 50% with average probably around 66% and many weeks when her illness flared up I was doing all of it, including everything for kids (her illness has good times and bad times, thankfully more good over last year). Most of the time I was fine doing it but I admit to sometimes feeling sorry for myself because she rarely said thanks or showed appreciation. I never said anything but I'm sure my body language told the story which I regret. What I meant by the 'now doing half' comment was that one of her love languages is acts of service so my initial reaction to her filing is I needed to start doing even more around the house without being asked (stupid little things that she would need to remind me to do I started just doing) and I was planning to stop that and only do "50%". To tell the truth I didn't really change anything though, the little things are so easy to do I just kept doing them. I also still do meals 4-5 days a week and do most the clean-up everyday. I've found that I now want to help out and I haven't felt sorry for myself and I'm not looking for gratitude.
I've started to read 'Courage to Trust' because trust, like love, is a choice. It doesn't come natural to me and I know it's something I struggle with and must improve on for either this or my next relationship. A lot of our issues have been rooted in both our trust issues from our pasts. I can't make her trust me but as someone on here said I can make the choice to start the journey to trusting her.
I know I kind of defended myself a little but I am truly grateful for the feedback and sometimes tough love
. I'm also not giving up. I have at least 142 days left until the divorce can be final, longer if I can stall it. I'll work on myself and pray.
Update from last night...
When I got home from work I asked her if we could talk because something was bothering me and I needed to tell her. She looked ready for a fight. I told her I was sorry for my attitude and comments at the end of last week. I told her I've been under a lot of stress with divorce, work, and extra holiday stuff I get roped into and I regretfully took it out on her. I didn't say anything else. She seemed responsive and her eyes softened a little and we actually talked for a couple minutes (just small talk that she started). I followed it up by asking her if she wanted to join the kids and I for Thanksgiving, she accepted. She tried to hide it but I could see she was happy to not have to spend holiday alone. Later in the night she came up to me and said maybe we could also all go to the parade or a movie. We watched TV as a family for first time in weeks. She even included me in her prayer that we do with kids before bed every night.
I'm not sure if these were the correct 'DB' things to do but I needed to do it for me because it was what I wanted to do and made me feel better because I was feeling bad about my attitude last week. I didn't come across as needy or even elude that I cared either way (even though I did). I'm getting so much advice that my head is spinning. Pass or fail, I'm realizing I have to do what's in my heart or everything feels off and doing it for wrong reasons (i.e. making someone spend holiday alone or being an a$$ to help me detach is just not who I am anymore).
I don't think there's anything wrong with spending the holiday with her, but don't apply any pressure or have any expectations. Just enjoy it for what it is and leave it at that.
No real updates here besides wife is going with kids and I to Thanksgiving Eve service and dinner tonight at church. We've also been sleeping in same bed for 3 nights now.
Reason for post is I spent better part of day (who works day before holiday anyway) reading various posts here and I'm inspired by what you guys have been able to do. This is a tough business getting through the day to day knowing what's at stake and how any wrong move could severely hamper things. Read posts by Breakdown, GH31, Denver_2010, and J3B and have me in a good mindset going into long holiday weekend.
Have a good holiday and try to enjoy the moment.
I'll be burning a few hours on Black Ops 2 myself
Update from last night...
When I got home from work I asked her if we could talk because something was bothering me and I needed to tell her. She looked ready for a fight.
your behavior turned that around. I call that a "win".
I told her I was sorry for my attitude and comments at the end of last week. I told her I've been under a lot of stress with divorce, work, and extra holiday stuff I get roped into and I regretfully took it out on her. I didn't say anything else.
I LOVE this^^^. Esp since you didn't seem to "expect" something back from her.
Reminds me of a 180 I made that was pivotal though small at the time.
H had always paid the bills ahead of time. In his MLC he "forgot" to pay them AND "forgot" to tell me!
So the electricity almost got cut off and I called him (this was when It hit me that he wasn't paying them anymore) right after I'd had a DB session, thank God. (Perfect timing!)
I informed h that the bill wasn't paid and before I could go any further he interrupted me b/c he expected me to vent and rant on him, which I would have done IF I had not talked to my DB coach an hour earlier...
He said "NOW YOU KNOW what it's like to pay the bills FOR ONCE!! (he never asked me to pay them, btw)
AND IT'S STRESSFUL AND I'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR OVER 20 YEARS!!"
I calmly said "Yes you have, and I want to THANK YOU For that - b/c it IS stressful to have to pay them every month."
H was silent for about 30 seconds (maybe less, but it was a LONG pause)
and said "um, well, you're welcome"....
and then we conversed for a few minutes about pleasant stuff and I got off the phone.
At that moment I realized how hard this DBing was going to be for me,
but that it could work.
She seemed responsive and her eyes softened a little and we actually talked for a couple minutes (just small talk that she started). I followed it up by asking her if she wanted to join the kids and I for Thanksgiving, she accepted. She tried to hide it but I could see she was happy to not have to spend holiday alone. Later in the night she came up to me and said maybe we could also all go to the parade or a movie. We watched TV as a family for first time in weeks. She even included me in her prayer that we do with kids before bed every night.
this ^^^ is called "progress" or baby steps, etc. IT's a good thing!
I'm not sure if these were the correct 'DB' things to do but I needed to do it for me because it was what I wanted to do and made me feel better because I was feeling bad about my attitude last week.
it WAS DBing b/c of these ^^ reasons. NOT b/c you said whatever you felt, b/c that is often NOT Dbing, but these reasons, feeling bad about your own behavior and owning it, are good solid reasons for an apology. (I mean, Why wouldn't you do it?)
I didn't come across as needy or even elude that I cared either way (even though I did). I'm getting so much advice that my head is spinning. Pass or fail, I'm realizing I have to do what's in my heart or everything feels off and doing it for wrong reasons (i.e. making someone spend holiday alone or being an a$$ to help me detach is just not who I am anymore).
Sometimes all we can do is ask ourselves if a course of action or comment is coming from a place of love/light in our hearts,
or something a bit more nebulous or dark.
I found that what I'd disguise as, or call "justice" or "fairness" was sometimes me wanting to punish AND Justify, which I'm very good at doing.
So I had to guard a lot against rationalizing what's really just punitive behavior.
But I'm a better woman for this new awareness and you'll be a better man and father for it too.
Thanksgiving weekend journaling:
Thanksgiving wasn't our traditional holiday but even with the current situation it was one of my favorite ones. We got up early and met some friends at the parade. None of us had ever been to a real parade and we had a blast seeing the balloons and floats. Kids had fun playing and W and I had some laughs. Weather was nice so we went home and put up outside decorations (well I did but they all played and cheered me on which was fun, I'm usually out there by myself freezing to death). After that we went to see a movie. We then went home and W and I finished cooking the meal together and we had a nice family dinner. No tense or odd moments and everyone had fun with no expectations.
W had to work 12 hour shift Friday so kids and I hung out, played, and ran some errands. Just about dinner time phone rings and it's wife from work, I was surprised because she hasn't been calling from work lately. She asked if we had dinner plans. She wanted to meet us for dinner so we drove towards her work and had dinner. Kids were being pretty goofy so we were laughing the entire time.
Saturday was toughest day for me but still a good one. I opened bills in the morning while having coffee and saw wife's lawyer retainer fee. Glad my lawyer is a friend
. Anyway, for whatever reason that brought me down a little and back to the real world. Probably good though because I have a tendency to think things are improving faster then they are and this reminded me to slow down and just enjoy the moment for what it is. The plan was to put the tree up and decorate it but I knew my head wasn't in it then and I wanted to make sure we had fun. I brought everything up from basement and then asked if everyone wanted to go to gym. It's usually a fun family thing we do so they agreed. Wife was ok with it also because she seemed a little sore so hot tub was calling her name. I pushed myself pretty hard and got out all the pity party emotions I was feeling. We picked up kids from daycare area and went swimming and had fun. Had lunch and then put up tree. This was first year I didn't just rush to get it done, I sat back and enjoyed it and took a few seconds to remember a lot of the good times. I think this helped everyone have more fun because in past I had a tendency to get grumpy because it was taking so long (I really don't like the old me now that I see what I was). We went out to dinner as family but we were all pretty tired. My back was hurting and after kids went to bed wife offered to give me back rub, I was very surprised. It felt good and rather then trying to pursue anything more, like I surely would have in past which likely would have ticked her off, I just said thanks after a few minutes and we headed to bed. During night wife snuggled up against me while sleeping.
Sunday was another good family day. Went to church and sermon was all about forgiveness. Pastor really hit it hard and kept asking why we feel we should be forgiven when we can't forgive other people... Made me realize I still have some forgiveness to give to her that I've been holding from long ago. I prayed God would help me with that and vowed to do everything I can to fully forgive her and move on. He also pretty much quoted many of W's excuses for not being able to forgive my past wrongs. We didn't talk about service afterwards but I did see her wipe her eyes a couple times so thinking it might have gotten to her. After church went shopping and I wasn't in my normal guy "I hate to shop" mode. I was engaged and actually helped in every store. Got kids to bed and wife asked if I would make us some tea and we watched TV. We used to drink tea every night and hadn't done it in months so thought that was a baby step. Went to bed on our own sides but when I woke up in middle of night we were both in middle of bed snuggling. (I swear I'm turning into a girl with all this emotion and snuggling talk, who knew I had this many feelings. I'm scared if I ever see a date movie again I might start crying).
So all in all had a really good family weekend. No fights or even weird moments. I didn't do anything stupid, didn't bring up R, and didn't show any expectations or neediness. Best part was it wasn't that hard, I was just being myself (well the new me). It made me hopeful but I tried to keep my expectations in check and just 'enjoy the moment'. I know there is still a LONG way to go. The weekend didn't help the detaching though... When I'm alone journaling and being honest with myself the hardest part for me is having patience and my stupid need for reassurance. It's obvious it was a good weekend but a part of me keeps thinking was she just trying to get through weekend and nothing has changed. Wish I knew if needle was moving at all with us. I know for sure my 180's are helping me because in the past many of these activities would have been a bother for me and had me aggravated and this time I had a really good time. Now that I think about it I guess what's really important is that I'm improving. The rest will work itself out.
Thanks 25yrs for your reassurance
. I know it's stupid but I do appreciate the positive (and negative) feedback. It helps me keep going and stay on the path.
With these 180's and my self reflections it's no wonder my wife didn't leave me years ago. I really don't like who I was. Here's hoping it's not too late.
Dude, that sounds really good! Glad you had a good holiday and glad the church message was right on (funny how that happens isn't it?). I'm glad to hear that you took the message internally, and didn't use it to pressure W.
Good job on keeping expectations in check. Keep going. Don't try to mindread (I see that in some of your messages)....it doesn't help, and you can really never know what's going on in their head unless they tell you. Enjoy the moments!
Stealing my post from AS's thread...
But, one of my faults that I've done a 180 on is I did complain a lot. I would gripe about having to do sooooo much stuff with the kids. Just to W, not to the kids. And I did (and do) enjoy the activities thoroughly, but I would gripe to W and say things like "good grief, it seems like we never get a break from this stuff, I can't believe there's ALWAYS some deal we have to go to here or there, I can't ever get anything done at home because of all of this." I was just venting, it's not that I didn't want to go.
Whoa, light bulb moment for me! This is a new 180 for me that has been staring me in the face for years. In one of our arguments a couple weeks ago about custody my W brought up how I don't even like spending time with kids because I always complain about doing things. I wrote it off as her re-writing history because I spend more time with them then anyone and I don't miss anything they do. I volunteer for just about every thing they're involved in (coaching, kid small group leader at church, taking kids to parties, etc...). In my head I know I wouldn't miss any of it for the world and love doing it but I admit to complaining about it to W. Sometimes I'd like to just watch football or baseball on Saturday instead of going to gymnastics, swimming, coach either T-ball or soccer, and do other assorted activities and I'd say something in passing to her. Now I see she probably actually believed my complaining was real and not just me venting to vent. Figured she knew the truth since I keep volunteering to do things with kids. 180 on this starts now! I'm stealing this and putting it in my own thread also
.
So....
Let me ask you some things...
Why DO you, do those things ? ( activities, etc )
Why do you complain about them ?
When you realized this, is this how you want to present yourself to other people ? To the world ?
Why do you think that it was a "light bulb" moment ?
Did you feel that little burning sting when you realized it ?
Why DO you, do those things ? ( activities, etc )
I really enjoy spending time with kids. Like watching them have fun, enjoy life, and have opportunities that I never have. Love being part of their life since my dad left when I was 4 and never had a father that wanted anything to do with me. Lastly I really enjoy coaching kids. Watching kids learn and improve through a season is great and I assistant coached middle school football before having kids, being able to do that with my own kids is amazing and fills something in me (sounds weird but not sure how to explain).
Why do you complain about them ?
I really don't know. I think it was to try to get a 'that a boy' or support from wife for doing so much that a lot of other dads don't do. Sometimes it's overwhelming but 99% of the time there's nothing else I'd rather be doing then hanging with kids. I know I'd stop watching the games I mentioned above if kids came in room to play.
When you realized this, is this how you want to present yourself to other people ? To the world ?
No, not at all. I've only ever complained about it to W and now wish I never would have
Why do you think that it was a "light bulb" moment ?
Because I'm an idiot and it never occurred to me that my wife actually believed my venting was real complaining. I thought she could read my mind and know that I love doing those things, especially since she goes to many of the events and sees how much fun all the kids and I are having.
Did you feel that little burning sting when you realized it ?
Yes, more like a thump on the head saying 'wake up McFly'
It's funny but I honestly don't think I can talk with anyone outside these forums about my situation anymore because I just get frustrated. My friends think they have my best interests in mind by telling me to just leave, trying to tell me kids will eventually be fine with D, saying "let's go to Vegas", blah, blah blah. None of them really knows what it's like and can't understand why I would want to ever reconcile or make myself better because of what she's doing. They just don't get it. One of my best friends is even trying to set me up on a date (with a very attractive woman that's apparently interested in me) and doesn't understand how I'm not interested in any of that right now. Even my strong Christian friends (deacons and pastors) seem to preface every comment about marriage with something to the affect of 'protect yourself...' or tell me how W is really off God's path and God needs to bring her back. Of course I know those things and it gets frustrating so I've pretty much stopped talking with most people about sitch. The only place I really feel there is hope (for me or M) where people understand what it's like are these forums.
It's funny but I honestly don't think I can talk with anyone outside these forums about my situation anymore because I just get frustrated. My friends think they have my best interests in mind by telling me to just leave, trying to tell me kids will eventually be fine with D, saying "let's go to Vegas", blah, blah blah. None of them really knows what it's like and can't understand why I would want to ever reconcile or make myself better because of what she's doing. They just don't get it. One of my best friends is even trying to set me up on a date (with a very attractive woman that's apparently interested in me) and doesn't understand how I'm not interested in any of that right now. Even my strong Christian friends (deacons and pastors) seem to preface every comment about marriage with something to the affect of 'protect yourself...' or tell me how W is really off God's path and God needs to bring her back. Of course I know those things and it gets frustrating so I've pretty much stopped talking with most people about sitch. The only place I really feel there is hope (for me or M) where people understand what it's like are these forums.
So many people don't understand the DB path. Friends don't want to see you hurting and in their mind, the easy path is the way to resolve your pain as quickly as possible.
I'd explain to them what you're trying to do and that you'd like their support. If they can't comply, you really are best to stop talking about your situation with them.
I've personally removed one person from any talks about my relationship. Her "advise" was always contrary to my plans and caused me to second guess myself. By no longer talking to her I remove some of those doubts.
So many people don't understand the DB path. Friends don't want to see you hurting and in their mind, the easy path is the way to resolve your pain as quickly as possible.
I'd explain to them what you're trying to do and that you'd like their support. If they can't comply, you really are best to stop talking about your situation with them.
I've personally removed one person from any talks about my relationship. Her "advise" was always contrary to my plans and caused me to second guess myself. By no longer talking to her I remove some of those doubts.
^^^This.
I have two people I confided in. One is a woman at work who I knew I could trust to keep it to herself. Just being able to talk to someone helped me a bunch. But as time went on, it became apparent that her religious beliefs got in the way of her understanding how I could show compassion for a wife who “Just needs to start following Gods word”. I don’t believe hitting wife over the head with the bible will bring her back, so this friend has been removed from sitch talk.
The other is a long time male friend who truly “gets it”. He understands perfectly what I’m trying to do, and supports me %100. Even comes up with helpful advice. Every DB’er needs one of these friends.
a wife who “Just needs to start following Gods word”. I don’t believe hitting wife over the head with the bible will bring her back
I'm finally realizing that
A. W does need to start following God's word
B. Not even God hits us over the head with it.
C. I need to be patient and wait for her to hear His "still, small voice"
There's actually a part in DR where she addresses friends & family trying to help (someguy summed that up pretty well above). The sad truth is that our society views marriage as disposable. There's all kinds of information out there about how D impacts quality and length of life, children's social and economic status, success rates of 2nd marriages, etc etc, but it's inconvenient for most of us to consider.
Spartan, it sounds like things are going great in your sitch, congrats!! You're seeing some amazingly positive things happening, I wish I saw half as much in my own sitch!
So true about friends & family not being on board with DB'ing. I got so sick of it that I quit talking to my family for quite a while. Then they started saying things like "I'm so worried about you, are you OK?" which irked me even more. I told them that I'm just fine, but need some "away" time. I have one friend that understands what I'm doing and went through the WAW syndrome himself. His W walked 2 years ago. They never got D'd and now they're starting to reconcile. He's been a great support to me and totally "gets it". But even if you can't find a single local person that gets it, you've got us
AS, your friend's story would be interesting to hear. Could you share some of it on your thread?
Looking for opinions here because I'm torn on what to do.
W and I booked a Disney cruise with kids for mid Feb. Booked it 2 weeks before she filed which still boggles my mind but I digress. Airfare is paid for and the remaining balance is due on the cruise this Monday at midnight. 3 weeks ago when I was going through my anger phase W and I talked and no way either of us would go alone with kids and couldn't see going together but I was in a bad place then and we weren't thinking (or talking) clearly. Last 10 days or so we've been getting along really well but no talk about R. Good small talk, she's sending random texts, doing things together, and she's back in bed sleeping. Kids know about trip and keep bringing up how much fun it will be and we haven't said anything to them (remember they don't know anything yet). I usually just smile when they bring it up. Wife has balance due date on her calendar so I know she remembers money is due in a couple days.
So my dilemma, do I bring it up to her, let her bring it up, or just ignore it and continue to act 'as if' I've moved on and not thinking about trip. The money isn't a real concern and I could add vacation protection to get refund if needed. My hope is that we could be in piecing phase by then but we all know how these things go and I'm trying to keep expectations in check.
Mind reading alert: I'm afraid if I bring it up she'll say cancel because I'm not sure she's too point of thinking about a future. Even if she was she might still stay cancel because she wouldn't want to act like it because she can be bullheaded and it might make her look 'weak'. I'd hate to cancel and get to Feb and not go if we continue to progress because that would hurt kids and I honestly think it would be fun for everyone. Right now I'm leaning towards paying it on Monday whether she brings it up or not and I won't mention it if she doesn't say anything. If DB works it would be nice surprise and if it doesn't it's just less money she gets later. Thoughts?
A couple quick updates on sitch/ my progress. Last night wife looked stressed and I could tell something was up so I asked if everything was ok. She said bad day at work so I asked if she wanted to talk. She had bad day at work because she had to train a bunch of new people and her boss (who is actually a good friend of mine) was screwing her over on a shift later this week. She started off slowly and I think was surprised that I was really listening and sympathizing with her. She talked for 10 minutes about it and I never gave an opinion. It felt so strange but she seemed to enjoy it. Funny part is I understood why my buddy was doing what he was but I 100% took my wife's side. She sent me text this AM regarding her shift situation (it all worked out) and I replied back with more support for her. Complete 180 from my old behavior and not natural but hopefully becomes my normal behavior.
I also had extremely busy day yesterday with work and kids. Had to leave work early (@3) to run kids all over town and we didn't get home until after 9:30 which is past their bed times. Having 4 & 7 year old going that long would have old me at my wits end but I remembered my new 180's and I stayed calm and actually enjoyed most of it (not sure I'll ever be able to enjoy traffic). W saw us around 8:30 and even said she was surprised I was still in good mood and not complaining. Said she expected me to be handing kids to her. I owe that 180 to AS. Thanks!
With all that I still feel nervous because we haven't discussed us at all and it's hard not saying anything with D papers filed. Through this I've realized I need reassurance which I never really knew about myself. Before this I was very confident but now I'm questioning everything. We have our initial Friend of the Court appointment on 12/11 and we haven't discussed anything. Have no idea how that will go. This is so weird, feel like making progress but for all I know she's just going through motions to not fight and the needle hasn't moved at all. I guess I just need to trust the 180's and know in the end, no matter what happens, I'll be a better person.
That's so funny. My wife would bring up going to Vegas or something small occasionally and we almost booked it a few times, but she'd get up the next morning and decide against it. Then, she decided that we should do something grand for my oldest son's senior year and the kids decide on a cruise. We have been discussing it on and off for a few months.
Fast forward to about a month ago and W tells me to book it. I say something like, I'd kinda like to know where we're going because I don't want to spend money on a trip if I need that money for an attorney. She responds with "wouldn't you still want to take a vacation with your children even if we were D?" I poked a little fun at her and said "yeah, I would, but my gf probably wouldn't allow it." She says "just bring her and we'll be fine." We both had a laugh, but a few days later, she pushes me again to book, so we did. I really do think it'll be a vacation of a lifetime for my kids, and if we end up D, then all the better that they got to experience it as a family. 11 days til sailing! (and about 6 weeks before our first court date :s)
So first off, I would not book/pay this without discussing with your W. That might make her feel trapped, or discounted. You might ask her if she'd like to book with the insurance so that either of you can cancel between now and then. This basically gives you the ability to "not make a decision right now." I'd lay it out as no expectations, time for the kids, etc etc. Then just see how the next few months go.
I'd hate to cancel and get to Feb and not go if we continue to progress because that would hurt kids and I honestly think it would be fun for everyone. Right now I'm leaning towards paying it on Monday whether she brings it up or not and I won't mention it if she doesn't say anything. Thoughts?
I say continue to avoid R talks, pay the balance and plan on having a fun time as a family. It sounds like your gut is telling you the same thing. Next time the kids bring it up, instead of just smiling tell them you're really looking foward to it also, and join them in their excitement.
You have something positive for everyone to look forward to, use it to your advantage!
Not much to update over last couple days. A lot of the same which I guess is a good thing??? Continuing my 180's with a little more small talk with W. Not a peep about R from wife but she's telling me more about her work/ family and things she's having to deal with and I'm being a better listener. I'm personally feeling pretty good and some of the changes are coming more naturally. I'm also working out like crazy and feel like I'm in best shape of my life. She's also been around more, not picking up extra work shifts or going out with friends. In fact last night she was going out after work and ended up at home by 7:00 because "she wanted to go with us to daughters swimming class". Kind of messed up my night of Black Ops but it's all good
.
The no touching/ kissing/ ML
is still in affect. Little torn on that, emotionally it might be weird and not sure I'm ready but physically I'm pretty much always ready. Don't judge me,I'm a guy. I won't push it though because it's always been a point of difference for us and it's a 180 I'm doing for R (admit that one might not be for me
). It's so weird but every night during the last week plus when I wake up (I've always been a terrible sleeper) we've been snuggling close to each other. No idea who instigates it and seems to be 50/50 by position but I admit to enjoying it since physical touch is one of my LL's. Last night we were in full spoon??? Instead of moving away like I have been I said heck with it because I liked it and fell back asleep, woke up 2 hours later and we were in same position. Thought that was a little odd because my wife is a restless sleeper and low probability she made it 2 hours without waking up to move. Trying not to read into anything but it's hard not to a little. This is all so crazy, I really have no idea what's going on... We're in same house, starting to have some good small talk, having a blast with kids with more laughing then I can remember, sleeping in same bed with unconscious snuggling, and divorce papers filed and potentially months away from D-day with absolutely no R talk. Sometimes I think separation would make at least some things clearer.
I can feel my patience starting to run low on the zero talk about us. I haven't let on to her at all but it's driving me crazy. I figure we have our initial Friend of the Court meeting on 12/11 so something has to be discussed there. It will likely be bad and I'm already prepping to not be too disappointed. I still have no plans to discuss R until she says something.
I'm also still up in the air on the cruise and what to do. While we were at swimming last night she reminded me that she had a doctor appointment next Monday so I'd need to get dinner for kids. I told her I remembered and no problem. My son was on my lap playing and not thinking at all I said 'isn't there something else I'm supposed to do on Monday' and she responded with that was day cruise payment was due. I should have started discussion about it but it kind of caught me off guard. All I said was the airfare had already been paid and left it out there. She didn't respond and there was awkward silence for a few minutes. She's so bullheaded she may never say anything. I was a little surprised she spit out payment due date immediately so it's obviously on her mind. Since I paid airfare a few months back I'll likely just pay for cruise and see what happens. I kind of feel like I missed an opportunity to open a discussion with her yesterday but I don't want to instigate and son was there being his normal high energy 4 year old self so likely wouldn't have been productive.
Other thing that has been bothering me is not wearing ring. W took hers off when she filed (normal WAS behavior I think) and I didn't let it bother me too much. When I hit my breaking point a couple weeks ago I stopped wearing mine and haven't put it on since. I've worn that thing 15 years and I honestly hate not having it on now even with sitch. My D7 actually said something about me not having it on last weekend when we were all together that I didn't respond to but know W knows it's off. I can't put it back on because I don't want to give any mixed signals to W (or to me). I've told myself that my old marriage is dead and gone so I shouldn't put that ring back on until we've at least decided to try and reconcile and possibly wait for her to put her's back on.
Just strange because I never put a lot of thought into rings and never really noticed them on people. Now I hate not having one and since this started I'm noticing them on what seems like everyone
Sounds good. One thing you might think about is, what if things turned around....what if you did R. Realize this might take a year or two. And if so, looking back on it a couple years from now, what do you think would have been the signals that things were improving...the baby steps if you will? Sometimes that helps me with the impatience.
Just strange because I never put a lot of thought into rings and never really noticed them on people. Now I hate not having one and since this started I'm noticing them on what seems like everyone
I think a lot of us struggle with this one. My W still wears hers 95% of the time and I took mine off a couple of times only to finally decide I would wear it until D was final as a symbol of my commitment to the M. Fast forward a few months and I don't wear mine at all any more. I'm down about 15lbs for the year (looking like I did when I was 25!) and now its just a little big. I try to wear it when we go to church or to an event, but I'd like to get a new set if we R. W has tried to find our original rings thinking I'd fit into that one, but we haven't found it yet...but the fact that she noticed was interesting.
Other thing that has been bothering me is not wearing ring. W took hers off when she filed (normal WAS behavior I think) and I didn't let it bother me too much. When I hit my breaking point a couple weeks ago I stopped wearing mine and haven't put it on since.
I would leave it off. The thing is, you don't want to put pressure on her. You want her to think you both want the same thing. She quits wearing her ring, you quit wearing yours. If you keep wearing yours and she's not wearing hers then you're telling her daily that you want something different than she does, you want to save the M and she does not. It puts you at odds, creates friction and pressure. It's the same reason you don't ever say ILY, because when you do it reminds her that you're not on the same page.
A lot of the same which I guess is a good thing???
Well it does sound good, but I'm going to tell you this so that you don't get your hopes up too high. After BD W and I quit ML for a while, then when we started MC everything seemed to be going great. We were doing communication exercises every night, we were doing everything together, we even went out on some dates and even started ML again. She seemed to be going out of her way to spend time with me and the kids, like she really was trying to make it work. It really seemed like everything had turned around. And in MC W kept saying I had changed a lot and she even said I had become the "perfect husband". We too snuggled when we slept, something we hadn't done in years. But every time the R came up she kept saying she saw no future in it. And as you know she still did move out. So enjoy it, but don't get your hopes up, because even though it may seem like she's trying she may still be cashed out mentally. Have no expectations.
Thanks guys for helping keep me grounded. Have no expectations is always good to remember because you never know what they will through at you.
On here quickly tonight to vent a little so I don't say anything to W later. So she gets home from work while I was setting up movie to watch (MIB3) and asks if she can watch with me. I said sure and asked how her day was. She talked more then I expected complaining about things mostly and I just listened and sympathized with the tough cases and 14 hour day. She then starting venting about one of her old best friends (pre BD). She was complaining to me that her friend still thought D was a bad idea and was telling W her opinions. She was also telling her how bad it will be on kids, especially D7 and said she's guessing D7 was already suspicious. W said D7 didn't know anything and is fine and we were telling her early next year. She just kept talking about how wrong her friend was. It took every ounce of fortitude that I had to keep quiet and not say anything about us or how I was really feeling. I actually managed to show a little support for W saying how friend is strong willed and can be judgmental. Has my W forgotten I'm the one she's wanting to D??? I don't want the F'n D!!! Does she not know what she's putting me through emotionally? She either is tired and had a small lapse in judgement or she's believing my rant a couple weeks ago and thinks I want the D also and am fine with it. WTF is going on? Maybe my 'as if' behavior is working but I don't want to hear her talk about it. Thankfully she went to get comfy clothes on before movie so I have time to write this and relax a bit so I hopefully don't say or do anything stupid. Reading Sandi's 180's (for the 100th time) after I post this.
She just kept talking about how wrong her friend was. It took every ounce of fortitude that I had to keep quiet and not say anything about us or how I was really feeling. I actually managed to show a little support for W saying how friend is strong willed and can be judgmental. Has my W forgotten I'm the one she's wanting to D???
She's confiding her feeling with you, my wife does the same. I see this as a good thing and try to build on it. It's better they feel comfortable telling us instead of only others.
One thing WAW's often say is "OM understands me". Poop on that, I want to be the one who W feels understands her.
But every time the R came up she kept saying she saw no future in it. And as you know she still did move out. So enjoy it, but don't get your hopes up, because even though it may seem like she's trying she may still be cashed out mentally. Have no expectations.
Whoa...this is exactly where I'm at. Daily, things are great, we hang out, ML, do things as a family. Everything is great....except that court date in Jan. And every time R comes up, it's generally her saying she still wants D.
I think the problem is she made a decision and is sticking with it. She refuses to forgive, refuses to take a chance, to become vunerable, so it keeps her from committing to the M.
Has my W forgotten I'm the one she's wanting to D??? I don't want the F'n D!!! Does she not know what she's putting me through emotionally? She either is tired and had a small lapse in judgement or she's believing my rant a couple weeks ago and thinks I want the D also and am fine with it.
As I'm reading here, it seems like me, you and AS are all on the same ride...it's just that AS is first, I'm in the middle, and you're at the beginning!
I had the same issue with W talking to OM in front of me, and telling me about him. The whole time I was thinking "You do realize that OM has caused a rift in our M don't you? You realize that hearing about him reminds me of all the issues regarding him over the last few years?"
That said, I'm with FY in that her expressing her feelings to you is positive. It's a great opportunity to practice validating without agreeing with the issue.
Whoa...this is exactly where I'm at. Daily, things are great, we hang out, ML, do things as a family. Everything is great....except that court date in Jan. And every time R comes up, it's generally her saying she still wants D.
I think the problem is she made a decision and is sticking with it. She refuses to forgive, refuses to take a chance, to become vunerable, so it keeps her from committing to the M.
So this means you need to buy some more time to give her a chance to change her mind. ANYTHING that can move the date(s) or stall the process and give you more time is good. Are there any practical reasons you can come up with to hold up on the D process?
My wife said she was "done" but came up with her own reasons to wait to D.
"Maybe after Belle dies" (our 14 year old dog, who I now have on an exercise program and heatlh food diet!)
"Maybe after my busy period at work" (this milestone has already been passed two months ago, still no move on her part)
"Maybe after the loan is paid off" One year to go. (ok, this one was mine, but I knew it would make sense to her.)
Others have been known to use kid issues as reasons to hold off on D. (when school is out, kid graduates, etc)
The fact that you get along good is great! You offer comfort and security that she may find hard to give up when it comes down to it.
Sorry for side-tracking the thread, but I appreciate the input.
So this means you need to buy some more time to give her a chance to change her mind. ANYTHING that can move the date(s) or stall the process and give you more time is good. Are there any practical reasons you can come up with to hold up on the D process?
Maybe. After my last DB Coach session, I decided I would take the rest of the year and make it the very best it can be (and it's pretty damn good). But if we go to court in Jan, I think I will change gears and drop the rope. At that point, I'll have given her 6 months of pretty awesome M to think about. If she still wants out or is confused or just isn't willing to delay the D proceedings, I think I will just cut her loose to go figure it out.
Of course, things can change between now and then so we'll see what happens. But right now it looks more and more like she'll have to go experience life without me to appreciate me.
And with all that said, we still have a pretty expensive home we're trying to unload (which prevents either of us from moving), so if I want to go the delay route, there's certainly good reason.
She was complaining to me that her friend still thought D was a bad idea and was telling W her opinions. She was also telling her how bad it will be on kids, especially D7 and said she's guessing D7 was already suspicious. W said D7 didn't know anything and is fine and we were telling her early next year. She just kept talking about how wrong her friend was.
First, this is exactly what I was talking about above, your W outwardly seems to be interested in working on the M but inwardly she's still done with it. I know it's confusing and upsetting, but stick with your DB'ing and remember it takes a lot of time for this to resolve and you can't do anything to hurry it up.
Second, I agree with FY and BD that this is actually a good thing. The fact that she's willing to open up to you about this is great. It's tough on you to be sure, but at least she feels comfortable talking to you. So by all means vent here, then go back to DB'ing her and acting "as if" everything is fine. Sounds like you're doing this already, so good job!
Has my W forgotten I'm the one she's wanting to D???
If she thinks you're both on the same page then that's a GOOD thing. I doubt she thinks you want S or D, but she at least thinks you support her enough on it that you're not going to stand in her way. This is good, it takes the pressure off her which is exactly what needs to happen.
Whoa...this is exactly where I'm at. Daily, things are great, we hang out, ML, do things as a family. Everything is great....except that court date in Jan. And every time R comes up, it's generally her saying she still wants D.
Sounds eerily similar! My W didn't push for D, but she did push for S and I didn't get in her way. I don't know if you've read the last week of posts in my thread, but I actually pushed for D for this January and W freaked, so I took it back off the table. Anyway, since S we haven't ML at all or even kissed and we barely hug. Things changed a lot for us after the S.
I think the problem is she made a decision and is sticking with it. She refuses to forgive, refuses to take a chance, to become vunerable, so it keeps her from committing to the M.
My wife even admitted this was the case. She said that it took her so long to come to the decision to leave the M that she just felt like she couldn't go back on that decision. Basically she was so emotionally invested in the decision, it became the only option.
As I'm reading here, it seems like me, you and AS are all on the same ride...it's just that AS is first, I'm in the middle, and you're at the beginning!
LOL! Yup, good catch. Our W's all have a very similar "low energy" approach to all of this. If my W is any indication, we're all in for a very long ride.
I think the problem is she made a decision and is sticking with it. She refuses to forgive, refuses to take a chance, to become vunerable, so it keeps her from committing to the M.
My wife even admitted this was the case. She said that it took her so long to come to the decision to leave the M that she just felt like she couldn't go back on that decision. Basically she was so emotionally invested in the decision, it became the only option.
As I'm reading here, it seems like me, you and AS are all on the same ride...it's just that AS is first, I'm in the middle, and you're at the beginning!
LOL! Yup, good catch. Our W's all have a very similar "low energy" approach to all of this. If my W is any indication, we're all in for a very long ride.
Damn and damn! I'm rooting for you AS!
Hmmmmmmm it's an interesting, albeit painful quandary you guys have.
In 34 years of marriage, you can bet I thought of walking away many times, but the con side of the ledger always outweighed the pro column.
When women decide to leave a marriage they've already put a lot of thought into it and feel like they've worked hard to keep the marriage together but for some reason (and usually that has to do with the H)it's just not working. We like security, we have a need to make sure our children are safe. So they work out what will happen with the kids, who will get the house, furniture, soup tureen, how the money will work out. It may all be pie in the sky but she feels somewhat secure in her decision.
This means they are in a very different place mentally.
Spartan, it sounds like your W was processing things that were upsetting to her. You were there, so you got to hear it all. I'm not sure listening and validating her world view is the best option at this point.
Putting myself in your W's head, she's trying to convince herself and you, that her decision is a good one. What if you had said: "Your friend brings up some interesting points. Has she been through a D?" or "W, I agree with friend. I think this is going to be very hurtful for D." or "W, I don't agree with you on this so perhaps it's better that we don't discuss it" and go to another room.
You aren't resisting, you aren't arguing, you aren't coercing, you're simply stating a deeply held belief.
Is that going to make her wake up and smell the coffee? Probably not but at least it doesn't turn you into girlfriend/confidante.
Don't give up your fundamental beliefs to DB.
Well I've been able to not do anything stupid this weekend and actually outwardly was fun yesterday with family even though Friday comments still bothered me. Last night saw W's friend at church and wished her happy B-day and she gave me a hug, W was right there and she didn't say anything to her. I think it bothered my W but I didn't say anything. W and I even watched a movie together last night and made plans to Christmas shop together next weekend. In all honesty though I've been in major depression all weekend. I'm trying my hardest to not do anything needy but I'd be lying if I didn't say I was hurting the last couple days. I think it's mostly still not knowing what to do about cruise, pending Friend of Court date, and me beating myself up for putting me in this position. Old saying of I wish I knew then what I know now is so true. The more I read and learn the more I realize just how screwed up my marriage and I was for a long time.
My W's grandpa died last night, 97 and suffering so wasn't unexpected. I told her I was really sorry and I'd do anything she wanted/ needed me to do. I swear my W is an emotionless robot because she got news and not a tear or really even a change in emotion. I truly feel bad for her because she's never really shown any emotions over anything. Talks about it in past she said it's because she was raised by alcoholics and learned early on to bury emotions. Back to point...We talked a little and we agreed that it would probably be awkward for me to go so I'm not going. I told her it's her day to be with family and I didn't want to interfere with that. Really put an ! on my feelings this weekend though because him and I always got along great and I would have liked to be there but I understand why she doesn't want me there and felt I needed to respect her wishes and not push it. She did say thanks for offering and seemed sincere. Today I've just been really detached and in my own thoughts most of the time.
When women decide to leave a marriage they've already put a lot of thought into it and feel like they've worked hard to keep the marriage together but for some reason (and usually that has to do with the H)it's just not working. We like security, we have a need to make sure our children are safe. So they work out what will happen with the kids, who will get the house, furniture, soup tureen, how the money will work out. It may all be pie in the sky but she feels somewhat secure in her decision.
That makes sense but is opposite of what she said in her journal that I read 2 or 3 weeks ago (last and final time I snooped). In there she was trying to convince herself and even said she hoped it wasn't a mistake for kids. Said something to affect that she didn't want to lie anymore and be in fake marriage like her parents. Said she would rather take a chance of being alone since she's never done that but she hoped our kids wouldn't suffer. She even said this verbally to me in one of our initial post filing fights and I said why not take chance on us and lets try to communicate better but she didn't want to spend any energy on that. She even admitted to being a bad wife in her journal and not going all in because she was afraid of being hurt (that really hurt and hurts me now thinking about it again). She said her love tank has been empty for a while and even mentioned her IC saying sometimes it just can't be filled again. I've finished 5LL book and have been working on her LL's but she's resisting as much as possible. I hope some of what I'm doing is getting through but hard to tell. Odd thing is about 2 months ago she had never heard of LL's or love tank until they talked about it in church. She was surprised to hear what my LL's were after that service, sadly at that time I wasn't really sure of hers either...so sad we were together 20 years and didn't know each others. She said she wasn't sure what hers were then either. I'm pretty confident I know hers now. We were planning to watch DVD together since she isn't a big reader and then she filed after incident in my initial post. Last time we talked she admitted to not really having a plan for custody, how she would handle kids, thoughts on money, etc... but that could be just talk. I think she's going through a lot of changes right now with her codependency recovery group and I know I'm the point of most the problems/ blame so probably made sense to get rid of me. Who knows though...
I'm going to just get through today and then get back to the happy, DB me I've been the last several weeks.
Spartan, it sounds like your W was processing things that were upsetting to her. You were there, so you got to hear it all. I'm not sure listening and validating her world view is the best option at this point.
Putting myself in your W's head, she's trying to convince herself and you, that her decision is a good one. What if you had said: "Your friend brings up some interesting points. Has she been through a D?" or "W, I agree with friend. I think this is going to be very hurtful for D." or "W, I don't agree with you on this so perhaps it's better that we don't discuss it" and go to another room.
You aren't resisting, you aren't arguing, you aren't coercing, you're simply stating a deeply held belief.
Is that going to make her wake up and smell the coffee? Probably not but at least it doesn't turn you into girlfriend/confidante.
Don't give up your fundamental beliefs to DB.
Thanks for posting your point of view on this, labug.
Sure we want our W to know that D is not what we want, but once we make this known we need to back off. I'm pretty sure Spartans W knows where he stands.
Plus, timing here is everything. When Spartans wife was expressing her frustrations over her GF's opinions against D, I can tell you from experience that would have been the
worst time to question her feelings or side with GF. No matter how nicely he tried to present it as not resisting, arguing or coercing, that's exactly how it would've been seen by his wife, I believe.
You want to tell W that you think D will hurt the kids? Fine, but don't tell her when she's frustrated that her GF doesn't agree with her on the matter, wait until you both are getting along well and the kids are playing.
Putting myself in your W's head, she's trying to convince herself and you
Right, and it didn't work. Trying to convince W (with words) also will not work. Let your actions do the talking.
I remember one time early in my sitch when wife was crying, saying "you're not going to give me a D, are you?" I told her clearly that while it was not what I wanted, if it came to it I would give it to her. You know what? It took a lot of pressure off her, just knowing that I was "on her side". That was 8 months ago.
FY, I think there are times in this process that call for truth, and probably most of those revolve around children, the innocent collateral damage in all this.
I didn't advocate convincing Spartan's W of anything.
If I respond authentically and without rancor, to something my H has said that is counter to a deeply held conviction of mine (of which I have very few) and he gets angry, pissed off, upset---Oh, well.
His feelings are his to deal with and if I'm upset by his response, I guess I would have to look at my expectations. Was I trying to convince him of something or was I simply stating a strong belief?
I am one who would rather be happy than right but I think this goes beyond that.
I wouldn't bring it up at a time when the kids are happily playing because to me that seems manipulative.
Responding to a comment from her seems appropriate. If this didn't involve such and important issue, I would say ignore it.
Others will disagree.
We had a little talk last night
Less than an hour after I posted my W randomly asked me how long it takes to get a passport so I told her. Both kids came running in right then and dragged me away to wrestle so we never continued talking. My guess is it was for kids because cruise goes to Mexico. After kids went to bed and we got house picked up she asked me if I thought our D7 would like the Barbie cruise ship and said she could buy it for her tomorrow. This is my W's passive way of initiating a conversation. She will never bring up topic that could be hard and expects me to instigate talks. Communication is still an issue (more on that later). In my head I yelled "OF COURSE SHE DOES, she has it on her list and has been saying she wants it to practice for the cruise for last couple weeks, just ask me what you really want". Since cruise has been on my mind and under deadline I said heck with it and said yes she would want it and speaking of cruise... We talked about it and decided to go ahead and go. I made sure to let her be the one to make the final decision and let her know about vacation protection. She did say that 'worst case it will show kids mom and dad can still get along'. I didn't comment to that at all and later tried to take it as a positive. 3 weeks ago we weren't going and would likely have pushed each other off the ship, my guess is 1.5 weeks ago there wouldn't have been a 'worst case' at the beginning but I'm likely reading too much into that.
After that we had small talk and some how got on topic of how my IC was going. Caught me off guard because expected 'real' conversation to be over. I told her I liked new guy and his style (solution based). She asked a few details because I never enjoyed IC before because it was always about past and never got results I was looking for. I didn't want to talk directly about any of my 180s or DBing so broadly told her SB style was and that we were working on my not relying on others to make me happy and my trust issues. She said she noticed I've been happier last couple weeks, especially with kids. She then talked about her IC a little and them working to bring her child out and not be led by her protector (she used other names but that's terms I knew). I was familiar with this from reading 'Courage to Trust' book so I commented a little on it and she seemed surprised I understood. I then told her how my protector always jumps in quickly which hurts my trust. Looking back I wish I would have let her talk more rather then tell her how it worked on me (one of Sandi's 180's on list that I still need help with).
I'm blanking on how we got to this in middle of conversation but somehow D came up and I clarified my comments from 3 weeks ago that I considered our old M dead and gone but that didn't mean I wanted to D her or not eventually work on us. She said "I know that" and the subject quickly changed. If I can remember how we got there I'll post it later but that's the last time I'll mention it. It's been bothering me so now I know she knows where I really stand, 3 weeks ago I was very clear to her the other way in my moments of anger.
A bunch of you guys on here and my IC have mentioned Retrouvaille and I noticed there is one within 20 minutes of our house starting in mid-January. Near end of conversation I brought it up from point of view that it might help our communication and it sounded interesting to me. She said she thought we communicated good about kids. I left that one alone because I know we talk good about kids. I know her head is still not in M or R so no point in telling her reason I want to go is to help us. We talked a little more about the concept and I said I'd e-mail her link, which I did this AM. She said she would take a look at it. Will be interesting to see if she says anything about it but I was surprised she even said she'd look at it. Baby steps...
Last thing of night was I helped her order flowers for funeral and I was a little surprised that she added my name to card. I even told her she didn't have to and she said it was fine, said she knew that her grandpa and I got along good all these years. She said thanks again for offering to go and helping with flowers. I still wish I could go and pay respects but I completely understand why so I won't bring it up again.
All in all it was nice to talk about something other than kids or small talk. I kept reminding myself to have no expectations and thought about you guys, even while we were talking. I'm trying to remember she's still not close to thinking about R, no matter how rose colored the glasses are I sometimes wear.
Those are good notes, and positive signs.
It's interesting that in important conversations you have better recall of what you said than what she said. It's a common communication flaw, that people are often so concerned with what they want to say that they're just waiting for a chance to work that in rather than hearing exactly what the other is saying.
I did that too, and have struggled to learn not to do it.
Retrouvaille would be great for learning to hear her better and understand her better.
I glad to hear the trip is on. Make it all about having FUN together, and NOTHING about the Marriage.
I agree that you seem to be doing as well as can be expected here. These things take time to turn around.
adinva made a great observation regarding your listening skills. Take this to heart.
labug, I agree with your stance, I only question the timing of bringing things up when W is upset/frustrated. Michele teaches us that timing is everything.
It's interesting that in important conversations you have better recall of what you said than what she said. It's a common communication flaw, that people are often so concerned with what they want to say that they're just waiting for a chance to work that in rather than hearing exactly what the other is saying.
Did some thinking about this and you are so right! It is something I really need to work on. She doesn't talk that often so I should be able to hear everything she says. Part of problem yesterday was it was first 'real' talk of any kind we've had in weeks and I was concerned about not doing anything stupid to cause a setback. I remembered to turn TV off, look her in the eyes when she talked, and not take control of conversation so she could talk. Problem is I forgot to listen to every word she said . I may very well have missed something important.
Just another thing to add to the pile of improvements I need to make to be the better person I'm changing into. Man I'm a flawed human. Funny just 2 months ago I thought I was God's gift to earth
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Just another thing to add to the pile of improvements I need to make to be the better person I'm changing into. Man I'm a flawed human. Funny just 2 months ago I thought I was God's gift to earth
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Welcome to the club! LOL
A little journaling:
Downloaded next book to Kindle: The Lost Art of Listening: How Learning to Listen Can Improve Relationships by Michael P. Nichols. Planning to start it this weekend.
Yesterday W asked if I had plans Saturday and I told her I didn't. Figured she would ask me to watch kids but instead she asked if my mom could come up so we could get some Christmas shopping done and maybe grab dinner. Surprised me a little and I told her I'd ask. So it looks like we're leaving house just the 2 of us for first time since BD so should be interesting. Goal is to just try to have a good time and not make more of it then it is.
She said something just before bed last night that caught me off guard. I was laying there reading and out of blue she said "thanks for helping out so much around here lately and getting everything ready to go for us". All I said is your welcome and we watched a little TV without anymore talk. I see this as a baby step because in past we've discussed that I felt taken for granted because she never thanked me and just expected me to do things. It used to be a big deal because she'd thank everyone for anything they did but never say it to me. Guess it still is a big deal since I noticed it, must have just let it go last several years.
This came from AS's thread and it's really been on my heart the last 24 hours with my W's grandpas funeral tomorrow.
For much (or nearly all) of that 25 years I was her rock too, and it really feels bad to know that I'm not her rock anymore.
I've tried not to show that I'm hurting over not going but it really [censored] not being able to go. I haven't said or led on about wanting to go since our previous talk. W and kids are leaving this afternoon so I have a full night of stuff planned for both today and tomorrow so at least I'll be busy and hopefully not think too much. I did see wife this morning before work and I might have read into it but she had this sad look on her face when she saw me in bathroom. You guys know how you can just read your S's slight facial reactions. For whatever reason I reached over and gave her a hug and told her it's for tomorrow since I won't be there. She squeezed a little tighter and held longer then a "normal" hug and looked like she might cry when I pulled away. I think it was our first form of contact (non-sleeping) since BD and I wasn't really expecting any form of hug back. I didn't really know what to do so I just said have a good day at work and drive safe. She said she'd call when they get there and I left.
Another 180 for me was I bought a sympathy card for W. I wrote a few words in it and put it in her bag so she'd see it when she gets there tonight. I always said that cards are one of the stupidest things ever invented and a complete waste of money. I rarely ever bought them and told her several times in past to not waste money on them for me. I never thought about it before all this but she has always given people cards for dang near any reason you can think of so they're obviously something important to her.
She is taking notice of your changes, and that is goodness. It's going to take patience and consistent change for her to trust in them, but the fact that she sees it is the beginning. Keep going!
I am with you on the cards, but sometimes we have to set aside what we think and try to see it from the other person's perspective. Your W probably gets people cards to let them know she's thinking of them, so when you get her one, that's probably the message it sends. It doesn't have to a $6 card...it can just be a $1 with some nice words in it to show that she's on your mind. Of course, sympathy card aside, at this point it'd be pursuit and pressure, so I'd steer clear for now unless there's good reason.
I used to do the same kind of thing on so many things. Looking back, I realize how selfish it was. I only thought about how I felt about it, now how my W did. She's the most important person in the world to me, yet I discarded her feelings on some things without the tiniest bit of consideration. Pretty crappy H material for a lot of years.
Of course, sympathy card aside, at this point it'd be pursuit and pressure, so I'd steer clear for now unless there's good reason.
It will likely be a while before I buy another for the very reasons you stated. I was in Hallmark for 25 minutes going back and forth on if I should even buy it or not. I think I read every sympathy card there so it didn't say or imply anything I didn't mean for it to.
Just journaling:
Wife sent text this morning thanking me for card. Two thank yous within 48 hours has to be some sort of record
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Today has been a tough day for me knowing I'm not at viewing or funeral. Trying hard not to think about it but I really wish I was there to hold her hand during service and take care of kids afterwards so she could visit with family/ friends. I also feel bad for not driving there and back because she sounded completely beat when I talked with her last night and I know it will only be worse when they come home tonight. I know it was her decision and understand why I didn't go but I still don't like not being able to help her.
Last night she called the house around 7:45 and I still wasn't home. She then sends me a text around 8:30 saying they got there and asked a random question about the dog. I replied about 15 minutes later telling her I'd check on dog when I got home. I texted 45 minutes later answering her question and told her to tell kids I said good night. Around 10:15 the home phone rings and it's the kids saying good night. She gets on the phone and we talk for a little bit and she sounded exhausted. I acted upbeat and didn't mention where I was earlier and got off phone. It's not normal for me to be out like that so wondering if she thought anything about it.
Wife just texted me to tell me they were in line to leave cemetery and said it was a nice service. I asked how she was doing and she said 'good but tired'. Her text eased the hurt I was feeling a little. Glad she said she was doing ok but more then that she was thinking about me right after services. I honestly wasn't expecting to hear from her all day. Probably nothing but I'll consider it as a baby step???
Other thing I forgot to mention was I went to AS's favorite store again last night (Buckle) and bought a few new shirts and sweaters that are way more hip then what I usually wear. I may spring one of them on her for our Christmas shopping on Saturday.
Quick thought, I posted in someone else's sitch telling them to think about if they're S can ever change enough to give them the M they want. Woke up in middle of night thinking about that in my own sitch. I'm honestly not sure if my wife can fill the needs that I have. Last several years I admit my love tank has been pretty low but she was such a good mom that I let my own needs go. With all this self reflection and reading I've been doing I now clearly know what I want in a marriage and I see many of those things being very difficult for my wife. I have to give her benefit of doubt because I know I've changed a lot but just a thought/ worry I have. I just know if I get to piecing stage I can't live in the old M status quo and she'll need to change a lot also... At least now I know what I want.
Other thing I forgot to mention was I went to AS's favorite store again last night (Buckle) and bought a few new shirts and sweaters that are way more hip then what I usually wear. I may spring one of them on her for our Christmas shopping on Saturday.
LOL!
I guess I'm going to have to go back and check out those sweaters too!
Quick thought, I posted in someone else's sitch telling them to think about if they're S can ever change enough to give them the M they want. Woke up in middle of night thinking about that in my own sitch. I'm honestly not sure if my wife can fill the needs that I have. Last several years I admit my love tank has been pretty low but she was such a good mom that I let my own needs go. With all this self reflection and reading I've been doing I now clearly know what I want in a marriage and I see many of those things being very difficult for my wife. I have to give her benefit of doubt because I know I've changed a lot but just a thought/ worry I have. I just know if I get to piecing stage I can't live in the old M status quo and she'll need to change a lot also... At least now I know what I want.
Man, it is amazing how similar our journeys are. I feel EXACTLY the same way. I've also reflected on how empty my love tank has been for years and how I was willing to accept a substandard marriage because my W has been such a great mom to our kids. But looking back, I'm the one that's been complaining for years about how we're more like roommates raising kids together than H and W. Having read the 5LL I see now that there are things I could have done other than just complaining about it that might have changed the dynamics. But at this point W is so cashed out that I just don't know if she'd ever be willing to try, and if she doesn't try then it'll never work. Because like you said, she needs to change too. We're working on ourselves and making ourselves better, but in doing so we're not willing to go back into loveless marriages. Sometimes I think it would be easier to get into an R with a new woman then try and build a new R with W.
I'm just starting to read your sitch Spartan but this:
My dad walked out on us when I was 3 and I never really got over it. I had all the symptoms of growing up without a dad: fear of abandonment, control issues, lack of trust, and not knowing what a husband/ man should act like. My mom over-compensated in raising me and always made me feel like I was right which led to me having a rather large ego and always feeling like I was right and everyone else around me needed to change to see it my way
...hits home. Don't know if you've read much of my sitch, but my H's mother walked out on him too (when he was a teen). I'm looking forward to reading more.
And this
Sometimes I think it would be easier to get into an R with a new woman then try and build a new R with W.
hits home as well. (except reverse the genders)
It does feel like an extreme uphill battle and I'm sure my H feels the same way. Too bad we can't walk up the hill together.
Journaling...
Been having a really hard week. Previous 2 weeks I was feeling pretty good emotionally, I was liking the 180's, and felt progress being made by her attitude and body language. I think the funeral and not being there really got to me. Since she's been back she's been real distant. She was with a lot of divorced people so I'm sure she was getting support to divorce because her attitude has been a 180 since returning. She's also started talking with her parents and older sister again the last month. This is a good thing because they haven't spoken in over 4.5 years. Bad thing is they just picked up where they left off like nothing happened and didn't resolve core issues (kind of way her family always worked). I think she reached out to them because most her friends have kind of abandoned her (which stinks in my opinion) and they didn't like me from the start because I didn't come from money and always bad mouthed me and my family. Anyway reason I mention her parents is she previously said that's the only way she could ever forgive them is to break off relationship and she thinks that's the only way she'll be able to forgive our past. I've told her we'll be a part of each other's lives because of kids and it won't work that way but she doesn't agree.
Like I said just journaling about feeling REALLY down tonight. I won't say anything when she gets home but I'm sure in a needy mood and want to reach out to her. We're supposed to go shopping and to dinner tomorrow so hopefully I get a good night sleep so we can have a good time.
Well shopping and dinner sounds like a date to me. Not too shabby Spartan. I hope you have fun. Try to keep that DB hat on... I know it's hard to.
Not sure we're still on, I didn't DB very good this AM. I fell asleep before she got home but sort of woke up and I think I asked if they went out after work (stupid sleep fog I don't really remember though or if she even answered). This morning she was in a really crappy mood and I asked if everything was ok. She snapped and instead of letting it go I asked her what I did and what changed since she got back. She went off and said she doesn't owe me any answers, her decision hasn't changed, she thinks it's weird i snuggle her at night, blah, blah, blah. I was a little surprised with that much attitude and I'm sure my face showed it. She said nothing happened with her family and i said obviously, we were getting along ok before you left and not since. She said she is just tired but i noted she only seems to be "tired" toward me and that has been her standard response for years and i wished she would just tell me what was wrong. She said we start getting along just to make things easier and I get hope and then I get crushed. I said I always have hope and I agreed that patterns she admits to always doing isn't healthy and is an issue we've had. Got on topic that we never resolved issues and just brushing things under rug for 4 years (yes cheap dig at her parents and her relationship) doesn't work. She said I hadn't changed and I still question everything and don't trust. I've thought a lot about that this morning and I can't think of any questions non small talk that I've asked in weeks and I said trust is given but also needs to be earned. I then said that she snuggles me at night just as often as I have and reminded her it's her choice to sleep in the bed. I said I did feel she was leading me on a little and she denied it (doing everything together still, sleeping back in bed, vacation plans in Feb, and planned going out today seems like it to me). We got on separation topic and it ended with me saying if she really wants out then why not go.
I know I completely failed at DBing (again) this AM but she hits my buttons and is so cold it gets to me. I know what i should do but i'm still not good enough at it when I'm relly hurting and just take steps back.I have no idea what to do tonight. A big part of me thinks a S would help me because I'm obviously not detaching and I'm honestly not good at keeping my expectations in check. I think it would hep her as well. So mad and disappointed in myself today!
I also think to really heal and DB I may be the one that needs to move out which is BS. Kids are too young to understand and they'll likely just see dad left no matter how close we are. W has even said that's why she doesn't want to move because she doesn't want to hurt kids even though she knows she's the one that wants out. Somehow she's convinced herself D won't hurt them though??? This whole thing is so unfair and I know life is unfair, anything worth having is worth working for, and all that but man...
We treated each other badly for years, i was a terrible husband and she was a terrible wife, both have empty love tanks, she's had affairs, and been caught in tons of lies and my kids are going to pay and be the ones ultimately hurt. AAAHHHHH, I need to go do something productive. I'm starting to wonder why I even want this again and I'm starting to play blame game. Need to concentrate on myself and stop taking steps backwards.
I'll be back later...
Don't be so hard on yourself Spartan. DB'ing is really hard. It takes practice. But keep in mind, every time you pressure her, it sets your process back a few steps. Just take a deep breath, forgive yourself, get back up and try again.
Check out FloydMan's sitch - very similar to yours.
W and I talked and she said she still wants to "try and go because we need to finish shopping". I said fine but now I'm not sure it's a good idea. We'll see. Will put DB hat on and try to make best of it. Was looking forward to it before this AM :{
Don't be so hard on yourself Spartan. DB'ing is really hard. It takes practice. But keep in mind, every time you pressure her, it sets your process back a few steps. Just take a deep breath, forgive yourself, get back up and try again.
Check out FloydMan's sitch - very similar to yours.
Thanks but it difficult to not be hard on myself because I know all the stinking rules and I screwed up like this 2 weeks ago. I know I'm just shooting myself in the foot and saw it 2 weeks ago and I'm sure will see it now. Same situation happened last time I blew it, I was feeling down emotionally for a couple days and tired Next time I need to just get out of house when feeling that way and feel need to talk with W.
Going to read Floydman's sitch now.
I've decided I'm going to force myself to be in good mood and try to be fun tonight. One of my original 180's was to not let my wife's mood affect mine and I need to hit that one 100% tonight. Wish me luck
Posting part of Sandi's post from Floydman's sitch here because it relates and I want to reinforce these points to myself, I'm sure others have said them throughout my sitch and many are in stickies but apparently I need to see them again
It's very important to not pursue her in any way. You need to have a lot of self-confidence. That is attractive to women. Being needy, clingy, etc., is not attractive in a man. Some women even see a man who wants constant reassurance as a sign of weakness.
You say you can't trust her and that she'd have to earn it. Have you told her exactly what it would take in order to earn your trust again? I'm sure it includes no attempts at contacting OM, but is that all......or have you lost trust in every other area as well?
Even though the house has been put up for sale, the fact that you are still under the same roof means that you have a lot of opportunities to turn things around. But I have some suggestions as to what does not work with a WAW, if you're trying to save the M.
Don't ask her how she feels toward you, the M, or a D. Don't ask about her activities that don’t concern the kids or spending your money. Don’t discuss past problems. Don’t try to point out good things about being M. Don’t try to guilt her about what she’s doing to the kids, you, or others. Don’t use punitive behavior toward your W. Don’t make negative remarks. Don’t act nasty, mean, or cold. Don’t expect anything from her.
This is not all of the “don’ts” but if you can handle that much, you will accomplish a lot!
DBing is all about working on “you”……not your spouse. Your biggest challenge will be to not focus on her. You need to take a long hard look at yourself and see what you need to do to be a better man. Set some personal goals. Don’t make them about her. These are just about you. If she’s had complaints in the past, that should help you get started with improvements.
Stay active with your kids and a personal life. You have to get a life that does not include your wife. Keep your calendar full throughout the coming weeks. Don’t “wait” to see what her plans may be, but instead, you inform her that you have made plans for that date. You don’t explain in detail what your plans are. She no longer gets an account of your activities…and you don’t ask about hers. When she is with you, be sure to show your best personality, manners, and charm. When other women are around, make sure you show them the same qualities.
Shape up your personal appearance and make sure you are looking sharp all the time. You may look sexy wearing nothing but a pair of blue jeans, but the point is that you look good.
Your attitude must be one that says you are enjoying life. Some men are afraid the wife will think he wants to split up. But in reality, you’ve already messed up by letting her know how clingy you are, so now she needs to see a guy who is suddenly having a good time wherever he is.....and him having a good time does not depend upon her! He may be playing with the kids while she’s cooking dinner or on the computer……but if she hears the giggles from the kids……well, it touches a woman’s heart like nothing else can. But seeing you enjoying yourself as if you’re moving on…..will get her attention and even stir her curiosity. It causes you to be a much more interesting man and one who people like to be around.
You may learn that the work in saving your marriage is nothing like you thought it would be. You have nothing to lose here, right?
So what is going on with you?
Well we went out Saturday night to get the shopping done but their was still tension in the system from the fight in the morning. On the drive to the first store the one thing I didn't want to happen happened, she brought up the morning fight and asked me why I have any interest in the marriage anymore. Not sure if she just wanted to start a fight and end the evening early or wanted to talk more, which isn't like her, but I wouldn't get into another fight and remained calm the entire conversation. I responded that I have no interest in the old marriage but I believe people can change and it happens all the time. She said she didn't believe people can change when they aren't compatible and I said I didn't agree. Told her changing is a choice a person makes and most people choose not to because it's easier to blame others then to work on themselves. She asked why I thought we would be willing to change now if we never did in the past (felt like the 'we' was really 'you') and I was silent for a couple seconds. She said I had no answer for that. I told her I honestly didn't think she'd ever leave and deep down, as I've told her before, I always blamed her for the issues which is no longer the case. I told her now I fully see my part in the marriage breakdown and it makes me sick to see who I had become. She said she has seen changes in me but doesn't think they'll last. Said she feels I'm just reacting to save the marriage because I've lost control and I'm trying to rationalize everything. I agreed that I had lost control but I didn't feel as if that's a bad thing. Told her I didn't fully understand the rationalize everything comment but I felt her filing did trigger something in me and I was sorry it took filing for it to happen.
I told her I felt many of our issues stem from our different communication styles. Said I felt rather then communicating effectively and understanding each others point of view we projected what the other's motives were and as things got bad over the years the projected motives got worse. I said we've likely each created the other person to be a monster over the years which just isn't true. Since we were on communication topic I asked her if she'd clarify one of her comments from the morning and she said yes. I asked her what she meant when she said I haven't changed because I still ask questions. This one bugged me because I've made a real effort to not ask anything about when she goes out, who she went with, etc... She said when we talk on phone when she's at work I ask her about workload (how many cases, what they are, if she gets any free time, etc...) and she hates it. She said she feels like I'm checking up on her to get a minute by minute account. I told her that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I said I've been trying to take an interest in her work so I've started asking about her cases. I also said that a part of me still worries about her doing too much with her disease even though it's been better as of late so I feel better when she has slower nights. She said she felt like I was accusing her of doing things during her free time. I didn't say anything to that but she either has a lot of guilt or some extreme control issues because I just don't understand what would make her think that but I now won't be asking as many questions. I said it's always bothered me that she never asked about my job or how my day was and it made me feel like she just didn't care. We ended the conversation with me asking her if something like that bothers her to try and let me know when it happens and I'll stop doing it and explain what I was doing/ thinking. She said she'd try.
That was pretty much the end of any R talks for the evening. I'm not sure how it read but I felt like some progress was made because we both talked, I tried to understand what she was saying, and it stayed calm the entire talk. She also acknowledged seeing changes which I thought was a good thing. The talk probably lasted about 15 minutes and I've left out some smaller things. I was happy I never sounded needy and felt very confident in what I was saying and felt like it came out objectively and not in a blaming tone at all. We ended up shopping for about 3 hours and then went out for dinner. Had a lot of small talk at dinner, some laughs, and I kept bringing the conversation back to her so she talked more. I don't know if she noticed but for me the silent moments between conversations was a little uncomfortable. I haven't felt that way with my W ever but likely because it was a pretty stressful day and I just wanted to get though it without anything bad happening.
She said she didn't believe people can change when they aren't compatible
Boy have I heard that one. It's such a frustrating response. IMO it's a way for the WAS to "corner" you - when they say that, you don't have much of a comeback. You can't say "But we are compatible!" because obviously you wouldn't be in this mess if things were great.
I told her I felt many of our issues stem from our different communication styles. Said I felt rather then communicating effectively and understanding each others point of view we projected what the other's motives were and as things got bad over the years the projected motives got worse.
This was really insightful and a great thing to say - doesn't put the blame on anyone and tees up the situation for change. Communication is something everyone can work on. You got through to her and she agreed to try to communicate with you better! Rock on Spartan!
I know these R talks can be awful. It feels like swimming upstream in Class 5 rapids. Good for you for staying calm and working on getting your point across.
I think we all have to get to a more detached point where we not only FEEL like we could move on and it would be ok, but our WAS's start to realize that too.
Might have taken a step???
Woke up Sunday and she didn't talk much to anyone before church and seemed pretty tired and a little detached. Church was a great message with the main theme being 'why does God allow suffering and hurt?'. Throughout the entire service trigger words/ phrases were being said and I felt a strong push to discuss something with W after service. My DB hat was saying not to discuss anything R, especially after last nights recent talk, but the push was strong. You religious people might understand if you've felt it, if not religious you may think I'm just crazy and sorry to you for all the upcoming 'church' talk
When we got to lobby I asked her if we could talk a second before getting kids. I said I'd likely do most the talking but felt strongly I should tell her this now. Told her I've been asking God that same question about hurt in a lot of prayers since she filed. Said I just didn't understand how this could happen after we became strong Christian believers. I told her that early on in one of our first fights she said she felt strongly that God gave her the strength to file for divorce so she could be happy in her life. I said I wondered if she had even thought about that comment since that fight. I told her that when she originally said it I honestly thought she had lost her mind but for whatever reason the comment has stuck in my brain and I always ask about it in prayer. I said about a month ago I felt clarity on the subject and wanted to share with her what I now feel and apologized in advance if I was totally off base. I told her now I feel that God did give her the strength to file to end the old marriage but I didn't know if he means for D. Told her that she now knows she is strong enough to end things that are bad and not feel controlled. She now has strength to be her own person with or without me and it must feel liberating. I also told her I feel her strength when we now talk because she isn't passive like she once was and is more outgoing with how she is feeling. I told her that I understand how unhappy she was in marriage and I now realize just how unhappy I was also and that my love tank was completely empty. I admitted that I would have never had the strength to file and would have kept being miserable for the good of the kids because she is such a good mom. I told her that her strength to file has forced me to change and reevaluate my life and I feel like that was part of God's plan also. By doing that he broke me at the core and humbled me. Rather than going down the path many guys do after divorce I turned to God and have went all in (finally). Now he's building me back up into a better person. Gone is the narcissist that I was and I'm becoming the man I should have been all along.
She looked at me with complete shock in her face and I thought I was about to be ripped a new one. Instead she said her friends just don't understand why the divorce and need for change. She said a prayer her group says every week is about having strength to do things that are in your control and let God handle the rest and in the end you will be reasonably happy. She talked for a couple minutes on the subject of feeling strong and better. She discussed some of what her group talks about which was a shock because her group has been a NO TALK subject in her life and any question regarding it would start a fight. For her to talk about it and discuss the prayer absolutely shocked me. She said the problem though is she understands God can change people but just doesn't know if they'll last. I said nothing I will say will convince her, only my actions and attitude will and she agreed with that.
When we got in car she said one of the other things in service that spoke to her was that maybe the question isn't why is there bad in the world but rather how can there still be good with so much bad. It made her want to start doing work to increase visibility of her disorder because she wants to be the 'good' for others. I encouraged that and told her I'd help if she wanted. She said she'd like to get a half marathon set up for awareness and I gave some suggestions and told her I could get a list of races for her and she seemed happy.
The rest of the day was a world of difference. She was talkative, happy, and I didn't feel the weight I've felt for last couple months. After kids went to bed I got a list of races being held locally in the spring but before I could bring it up she had her recovery group book sitting out on the table opened. She said she left it for me so I could read the prayer she mentioned earlier. I was in complete dismay. I asked if I could write it down to keep and she seemed happy about it. We then went to the computer to finish the Christmas shopping and it felt like old times. After we were done I showed her the list of races and we discussed how to set things up and I said I'd help if she wanted but didn't want to step on her toes if she wanted to do it on her own. She said she would love for me to do as much as possible since I'm usually good at this stuff.
Since I've been down this road a few times I'm keeping my expectations in check this time. I feel good about yesterday's talk but I know things change on a dime, sometimes for no known reason to me, so I'll take it day by day.
Next test is tomorrow morning. It's our first meeting with the Friend of Court mediator which is first step in actual divorce process. We get to meet the mediator and take a 2 hour 'SMILE' class on how divorce affects kids. My goal is just listen to what my wife has to say and try not to breakdown during the class.
I also realized our first official court date in February falls during our cruise. Not going to mention that to W and let her figure out it needs to be rescheduled. Figure longer it takes to reschedule the farther out it will get pushed, just trying to delay as much as possible to give us time...
I would definitely say you have made some very positive steps. I would help her with the race but try not to bring up R unless she does or if you are relating it to something like the service. I have a feeling she may say something at or after your class tomorrow. So far you are saying all the right things. In fact, I may borrow a few lines from you!!
I am in a similar situation but H stopped D. We are separated but talks have started for him to move back. I am very cautious because I am worried he is not ready.
Got through that and it was just an overview of the process, the contact info, and they had us watch a video on how to get through divorce process with least impact to kids. That was really hard for me to watch but got through it with only eyes watering.
After we were done she followed me to car rather then go to hers and she started conversation by saying I only saw negatives for kids in the video. I told her I heard the adults talking about how to make it easiest for the kids to get through this but I also saw and heard the hurt in the kids that talked about what they went through. I said I also related to many of the things they discussed. Others in room were crying but my W said she heard how it's not bad on kids if parents don't argue and can stay friends. She even said we could still keep doing things together. I think she's feeling guilty because the only time she raised her voice in this talk was when she said in past I told her she was destroying the kids by doing this. I calmly corrected her by saying that what I said was this will really hurt the kids and reconciling is better for them but she has to be the one to decide the route we take. She looked at me like she had no recollection of me saying that and she was sure I said it her version. I might start tape recording our conversations because this fog she's in doesn't seem to be letting up...
She then said she thinks we're better off as friends then spouses. She said she doesn't know if I can change to be what she wants or if she can be what I need. I told her to first let me decide what I need and not try to think she knows and that second I know she can because she's done it at times in the past. She said it's never worked in past when we tried to change so no reason to think it will now. It's so frustrating talking with someone that can't get out of the past! Anyway I told her when I'm honest with myself I'm not sure how much I really did try before and said I now know a lot more about being a husband then I did then. I asked her if she felt she had tried and she said she didn't know but said she didn't have any energy to try anymore. I responded with the reason I now think it could be different is because I know the changes I've made and I see how much stronger she now is. She said she isn't confident that hers can last and she could easily fall back to the old ways. I said I understood that concern but what gives me hope is that (1) I have more faith in her then that and (2) neither of us want anything to do with the old ways so I don't see either of us letting that happen. I said one of my biggest changes is that rather then wanting and expecting her to make me happy I now just want to make her happy which I feel will then make me happy. Told her I felt the hardest part in that will be me gaining her trust so she can help me understand how to do that. She said we both come from messed up homes and our kids deserve better and this is the way she sees that happening long term. Said that my dad walked out and she knows I'll never do that and her parents were in a fake marriage full of lies and no emotions. I asked her to think about which scenario would be better for kids since we agree neither of us want the current one so we'll assume that won't continue. Option A is we get divorced with us being friends and kids splitting time between us or option B which is us building a new marriage and staying together as family. She didn't respond but ended conversation with only time will tell but we're proceeding with process. I was complaining about no R talk just a couple days ago and now it's been 3 days in a row and I'm spent and just want a break. She keeps initiating it but ends up saying the exact same things.
One other thing she said when we were discussing change is reason she doesn't believe it will last is because I rarely finish things. She said this in a previous discussion and I need to put some thought into this to try and understand what she's talking about. I've been through a lot of hobbies in my life but I usually finish tasks/ goals that I set. Today it came up when I said I know she can meet my needs if she wanted to because she's filled my love tank in the past and I used example of when I was training for marathon earlier this year. I told her the cards she gave me through that meant the world to me. She responded that it still wasn't enough because I didn't run. Sadly I got injured during training and wasn't able to run (which she knew about) which put me into a little bit of a depression in Aug/ Sept. I got down more because I felt like I let her and the kids down and she really pulled away at that time rather then ask how I was feeling. Now that I think about it she filed 5 days after I was supposed to run... I really need to think about other examples where she put herself out to support me and I failed.
Any feedback on today's talk because I'm just not sure how to take this all in right now. Emotions are still a little strung out though but wanted to record conversation while still fresh in my head.
I was complaining about no R talk just a couple days ago and now it's been 3 days in a row and I'm spent and just want a break. She keeps initiating it but ends up saying the exact same things.
Quoting myself here but have an honest question. I've been good about not initiating R talk but when they happen she mostly keeps repeating things while I try to discuss what's on my mind. I feel like I'm pursuing a little during these talks because when we discuss R it's obvious what I want. I'm being more understanding and telling her I see her side of things and then sometimes tell her how I see the same topic which is always leaning towards reconciling. I'm trying to just plant some seeds and get her head out of the negative past but not sure if there's a better way to go. She hasn't said but I'm afraid she could see it as me trying to control the conversation. Should I just listen to her and not respond? How do you vets handle this?
Quoting myself here but have an honest question. I've been good about not initiating R talk but when they happen she mostly keeps repeating things while I try to discuss what's on my mind. I feel like I'm pursuing a little during these talks because when we discuss R it's obvious what I want.
I agree with you, in reading the discussion it sounds like you're pursuing and trying to control the direction of the conversation. You and I both know that's not your intent and that you're trying to get your W to think differently, but the best thing to do is just stop talking and listen. Just let her talk. She's probably not going to remember what you said by tomorrow anyway. I can't believe how forgetful my wife has become, any R talks we have vanish from her mind like the morning vapor when the sun comes up.
and then sometimes tell her how I see the same topic which is always leaning towards reconciling.
Which is NOT what she wants right now. So you're telling her the two of you want different things. That's pressure. Her perception is that you're trying to make her change to your point of view, that you want things YOUR way. Again, I know all too well where you're coming from because as you know our sitches are very similar, but we have to look at this from their point of view and it's distinctly different from ours.
I'm trying to just plant some seeds and get her head out of the negative past but not sure if there's a better way to go.
I really think it's better to just not say anything. Let her talk, you listen, nod your head, say nothing. If she asks what you think then tell her you're not sure about the future and you need time and space to think about it. Because THAT is agreeing with her, THAT is telling her you're both on the same page. And after all, you DO need to think about it. Are you sure you want to have an R with the person your W has become? I think we get so bogged down in trying to get them back that we forget to ask ourselves this question.
Should I just listen to her and not respond?
Yeah, I really do think that's best.
Thanks AS. Always appreciate your feedback. Through this process I as least now know what I should be doing but it's nice to hear you guys confirm it.
Are you sure you want to have an R with the person your W has become? I think we get so bogged down in trying to get them back that we forget to ask ourselves this question.
I've been thinking about this a lot over the last several days and the answer is a strong YES I DO. I don't like the tact she's currently taking and her being so cold towards everything but I'm not sure if that's the new her or just a coping mechanism she's using to get through things. I admire her new strength, her willingness to continue to work on herself, and how she's able to finally communicate her thoughts is something I really like (even if her thoughts may be way different than mine). When I look back at when I was really happy with her that's how she was and over the years I think I stole that from her. I think that's a reason I was losing feelings for her over the years. How M's fall apart is always such a tangled mess. In almost every sitch it seems like because one person doesn't swallow their pride early on when something bad starts things spiral out of control and things just build on themselves. I forced her to change and she inevitably ended up changing into someone I didn't like so I started treating her worse and she did same back.......
As least I will do my best to raise my kids to understand the principal of resolving issues when they happen. I've already started that over the last month or so and I'm starting to actually see them work things out between themselves without yelling for mom or dad. Who says a 4 and 7 year old can't understand conflict resolution
I really feel for you Spartan. When I read your sitch, it feels like I could have written it (except with roles reversed).
It is so hard not to pressure or insert your own agenda, when you want so badly just for her to see your point of view. I have a hard time doing that and honestly, it hasn't worked out that well for me. So you try to do better than I have. I get very impatient and I am so frustrated after years of emotional neglect, plus being a woman I am way more prone to reacting to my emotions.
However, I think it will get easier as time goes on and you learn to practice these skills. I for one have to really learn not to interfere with my H's "process", but I'm a fairly straightforward person so it's hard for me to put on that poker face and pretend that I'm indifferent when I'm not.
You are making progress with your W. She keeps bringing up the R. She is looking for a way back in, I think. She has to allow herself to change her views and it sounds like she's trying to give herself permission to do that.
I completely understand your frustration here also, sounds like my W in many ways. She said something yesterday that I just can't figure out what she means and I've been racking my brain to see her side so I can correct my behavior/ presentation.
Splain please ????
Specifics .....Not an essay
: )
I completely understand your frustration here also, sounds like my W in many ways. She said something yesterday that I just can't figure out what she means and I've been racking my brain to see her side so I can correct my behavior/ presentation.
Splain please ????
Specifics .....Not an essay
: )
Sorry I know I get a little wordy with my posts so will keep this short.
She said I never finish anything and that's why it's tough for her to believe the changes she's seeing will last. When I posted I didn't get it because I finish most everything I feel is worth finishing. I have a successful career, started and sold off business years ago for nice profit...
After some thought I see her point because I do stop things (sometimes soon after starting) that I don't think have value. Examples: hobbies that aren't as fun as I thought, marathon training after injury, couple business ventures years ago that I didn't like business plans, etc... I never explained why I quit so she just sees me start things and quit them for no reason and jump to next thing.
A 180 is to finish things in hopper even if I don't necessarily want to or explain to her why I'm no longer pursuing. Also will help with her fundraiser until completion (so far that's going great).
Sorry I know I get a little wordy with my posts so will keep this short.
She said I never finish anything and that's why it's tough for her to believe the changes she's seeing will last. When I posted I didn't get it because I finish most everything I feel is worth finishing. I have a successful career, started and sold off business years ago for nice profit...
After some thought I see her point because I do stop things (sometimes soon after starting) that I don't think have value. Examples: hobbies that aren't as fun as I thought, marathon training after injury, couple business ventures years ago that I didn't like business plans, etc... I never explained why I quit so she just sees me start things and quit them for no reason and jump to next thing.
A 180 is to finish things in hopper even if I don't necessarily want to or explain to her why I'm no longer pursuing. Also will help with her fundraiser until completion (so far that's going great).
Nah, don't apologize for being yourself......ever
So, finishing things....
It appears to have struck a chord in you....
You see the truth in her words, and you don't like it...
So what is it, that you want to finish ?
The only way I know to change that...is Time, and consistent actions...
Went over 100 posts so started new thread:
Stop The D