Wife says she wants divorce, but hasn't left yet

[Neode]

Here's my situation, and what I've done so far. I can provide more detail on the back-story if necessary, but I'll focus mostly on the current situation for this post. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Back-story: My wife and I met six years ago, she got pregnant after a month of dating, we got married after 3.5 months of dating. Things went downhill fairly quickly a few months after marriage, I had an EA four years ago, and then things were mostly tolerable for the past few years. We had our second child 1.5 years ago, and then after 1 year of maternity leave my wife went back to work.

Present situation: Fast forward to 5 months ago. My wife had just returned to work, but after a year of mat leave we were used to her doing pretty much everything around the house, and she tried to keep that up even after she went back to work (and I wasn't much help, I was used to her doing everything). She started feeling very overwhelmed, and told me that she wanted a divorce. We talked about it, and I agreed that I should help more around the house, and did so. She agreed to stay. Things seemed to be improving, but then two months ago, she started talking to her ex boyfriend.

Prior to this, she was very open with her phone. For example, if someone texted her while she was doing the dishes, she would get me to check it and send the response for her. After she started talking to her ex, she got very secretive about it. She would stop texting and hide her phone when I came in the room, or leave the room to read and respond to texts. I got suspicious, spied on her, and eventually discovered that she was having a physical affair with him. As well, she had a date planned with another person, but that got called off when I found out (all the details of the spying and the affair would make this post really long, but if any more detail is needed, let me know and I'll add it). She claims that the planned 'date' was innocent, but I have doubts.

Physical intimacy (cuddling, hugging, kissing) has been very little over the past two months, and pretty much solely when I initiate it, and sex has been almost non-existent. She has been very adamant throughout this that she wants a divorce, has spoken with a lawyer, but hasn't gone so far as to actually separate (law here requires 1 year separation before divorce can be granted). She has discussed it at length with her best friend, and (to the extent that she's shared these conversations with me) her friend is completely convinced that the divorce will happen.

Reading through DB, the list of things NOT to do reads like a list of things I've done. Begging, crying, trying to convince her that we can work things out, trying to talk out our problems, trying repeatedly to initiate physical intimacy when she doesn't want to, etc. Even before reading DB, I had realized that this wasn't working, that it was driving her away more. I stopped most of those things before reading DB. Things have improved a little bit since then.

This past weekend was quite pleasant, we went out for dinner on Friday, had some friends over on Saturday night. Last night (Sunday), as we watched TV, she actually cuddled up to me on the couch, which was a pleasant surprise. When the topic comes up, she still says that she wants a divorce, but she only brought it up a couple times this weekend (previously it had come up any time we talk about anything more than a month in the future). We talked about a couple of events happening in February, and, while somewhat reserved, she was at least open to the idea of making plans to attend.

Things I've been doing differently so far:

• Trying to be more proactive about doing housework (not waiting to be asked)
• Not asking for sex or other physical intimacy nearly as often (though still sometimes). Since I reduced the frequency, she's been more receptive. I was rejected for kisses far less often in the past week than in the two months before.
• Started working out again last week. I'll be heading to the gym with some friends 3 times per week from now on. One of her complaints is that I've grown some love handles since we started dating, so I've decided to get rid of them (not just for her, for me as well, and so it's easier to meet someone new if we do get divorced). Working out also helps me feel better in general, which helps with:
• Trying to be a happier person in general, and especially when we're together. (Over the past two months especially, I've been quite depressed. Probably quite depressing as well)
• Scheduled talks. We've started planning our talks about our relationship in advance, so she knows when to expect them. Prior to this, she felt like I was talking at her all the time or would feel ambushed, and would just tune me out. At the same time, I felt like if I didn't talk about something when it was on my mind, I'd never get a chance.

Our talks are still not rigidly scheduled. We just sort of plan them whenever. She still complains whenever I ask to plan one, but generally agrees. They're also fairly open ended, they don't have a specific end time. We're having another talk tonight, and after reading DB, I'm going to ask her about making them a regular M/W/F feature, but limiting them to half an hour in length. That way she won't have to feel like I'm pressuring her to plan them whenever I ask, and she won't feel like she's going to be stuck talking about our relationship for hours, because of the time limit.

Any suggestions for what to do going forward? Should I be doing LRT right now since she says that she wants a divorce? Or should I keep going the way I've been going, since I'm seeing some small improvements, and she hasn't actually made a concrete move towards separation/divorce yet? Anything else I should/shouldn't be doing?

[Neode]

Ok, so an update:
She was good with having talks every M/W/F, for half an hour, so that's the plan going forward.

I forgot to mention above that we've been going to marriage counselling, I think we've had 5 sessions so far. Mostly we've gone over the whole back-story, haven't really gotten much in the way of solutions out of it. Had another session last night. My wife still says that she wants to separate. She had an explanation why things were more pleasant over the past weekend: She's currently injured (fell down the stairs at the restaurant on Friday), so I've been helping her out quite a bit getting around the house, getting up/down, etc. She says that because of the extra help, she felt more like being nice to me.

[AnotherStander]

Hello and welcome to the forums!

Back-story: My wife and I met six years ago, she got pregnant after a month of dating, we got married after 3.5 months of dating. Things went downhill fairly quickly a few months after marriage, I had an EA four years ago, and then things were mostly tolerable for the past few years. We had our second child 1.5 years ago, and then after 1 year of maternity leave my wife went back to work.

Have you EVER had any times in your marriage that were great? Because it sounds like the best you ever had was "tolerable". It sounds like you got married for all the wrong reasons.

[*]Trying to be more proactive about doing housework (not waiting to be asked)

Like Yoda said: "Do. Or do not. There is no try." Or as one of my college professors said: "If you say you 'tried' to do X, then what you're telling me is you were unsuccessful."

[*]Not asking for sex or other physical intimacy nearly as often (though still sometimes).

So basically you're "trying" not to ask as often. See above.

[*]Trying to be a happier person in general, and especially when we're together.

There's that nasty word again. OK, I know in this case you can't just turn PMA (positive mental attitude) on like a switch, so you do have to act at this one. So do act "as if" everything is fine and do your best to maintain a PMA. It'll require less and less acting as time goes on until it just becomes your new attitude.

[*]Scheduled talks. We've started planning our talks about our relationship in advance, so she knows when to expect them.

Yikes! No, don't do that! Do not ever initiate R talks! If she brings it up then listen to her and validate her emotions, but don't bring it up yourself. At this point I would tell her "Look W, it seems pretty clear you don't want to have these conversations and I'm concerned it's doing more harm than good, so would you like to just set this aside for now?"

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

Our talks are still not rigidly scheduled. We just sort of plan them whenever. She still complains whenever I ask to plan one, but generally agrees.

Of course she does, because she sees them as PRESSURE. Pressure is bad! You are pushing her away, even out the door. Stop the pressure!

Any suggestions for what to do going forward?

Yes. DETACH. GET A LIFE. Print out the DB 180 tips and LIVE them. Here are a few:

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

[AnotherStander]

Ok, so an update:
She was good with having talks every M/W/F, for half an hour, so that's the plan going forward.

This it to talk about the R? Or just chat? Just chatting is fine, but if this is for R talk then it could be very harmful.

I forgot to mention above that we've been going to marriage counselling, I think we've had 5 sessions so far. Mostly we've gone over the whole back-story, haven't really gotten much in the way of solutions out of it.

Seriously, 5 sessions just on the "back-story"? You might consider ditching that C right away. A solutions-based C would have spent maybe 15 minutes on back-story before pushing you to focus on the future. Dwelling so much on the past will hurt things, not help them.

[Neode]

Hello and welcome to the forums!

Thanks.

Have you EVER had any times in your marriage that were great? Because it sounds like the best you ever had was "tolerable". It sounds like you got married for all the wrong reasons.

This is pretty much an accurate assessment. Add to that a whole bunch of changes in both our lifestyles right after marriage, and you have a recipe for disaster, which is what we've got. Basically I'm trying to build something worthwhile out of the mess I'm in. There have been some periods that were happy, but they were always short lived.

[*]Trying to be more proactive about doing housework (not waiting to be asked)

Like Yoda said: "Do. Or do not. There is no try." Or as one of my college professors said: "If you say you 'tried' to do X, then what you're telling me is you were unsuccessful."

This one I've been quite successful at. I have occasional relapses, when I forget, but almost all of the time I'm getting the housework done before she asks.

[*]Not asking for sex or other physical intimacy nearly as often (though still sometimes).

So basically you're "trying" not to ask as often. See above.

Yes. I went from basically constantly begging for physical contact to only trying for goodnight kiss in the evening, goodbye kiss in the morning. The hardest time for me is in the evenings. We typically sit up in the evenings watching TV for an hour or two, and it's hard to resist asking her to cuddle on the couch.

There's that nasty word again. OK, I know in this case you can't just turn PMA (positive mental attitude) on like a switch, so you do have to act at this one. So do act "as if" everything is fine and do your best to maintain a PMA. It'll require less and less acting as time goes on until it just becomes your new attitude.

Will do. It's hard sometimes, though it's been easier since I've started working out again. It's amazing what a bit of exercise will do for your mood.

Yikes! No, don't do that! Do not ever initiate R talks! If she brings it up then listen to her and validate her emotions, but don't bring it up yourself. At this point I would tell her "Look W, it seems pretty clear you don't want to have these conversations and I'm concerned it's doing more harm than good, so would you like to just set this aside for now?"

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

Our talks are still not rigidly scheduled. We just sort of plan them whenever. She still complains whenever I ask to plan one, but generally agrees.

Of course she does, because she sees them as PRESSURE. Pressure is bad! You are pushing her away, even out the door. Stop the pressure![/quote]

Previously they were that way. I would ask about what was wrong, what I could do to fix it, and ask for reassurances. Since reading DB I've been using them to try to get insight into which times are better than others from her perspective, and why, so that I can hopefully reproduce those times. (Trying to figure out what works, so that I can do more of that) Should I abandon this approach?

Yes. DETACH. GET A LIFE. Print out the DB 180 tips and LIVE them. Here are a few:

Thanks, I'll work on them.

[Neode]

Seriously, 5 sessions just on the "back-story"? You might consider ditching that C right away. A solutions-based C would have spent maybe 15 minutes on back-story before pushing you to focus on the future. Dwelling so much on the past will hurt things, not help them.

How do I find a solutions-based C? Or how can I get our C to be more solutions-oriented?

[Neode]

Are there any good resources for how to detach? Whenever I start to consider that it might be time to move on, my stomach twists in knots and I start to feel really needy.

[chatterbug]

Is she still committing adultery? If the answer is yes then bring that up at MC as the major issue in your marriage. Everything else takes a back burner until you get this squashed. Then state you will not work on relationship talks until this issue is resolved.

Do not have sex with her when she is having sex with other men.

Get to a doctor and get checked out. Full tests. Do not be stupid here. This is your health your playing with.

Get to a lawyer for a free consultation after you go to your province's website for divorce and read up on your rights as a father and as a man. Then go ask questions. What to do and what not to do.

DO NOT MOVE OUT. DO NOT LEAVE THE BEDROOM. She is free to leave the marital bed is she chooses but you stay where you are.

If you want to move this forward quickly and skip a few months of limbo then detatch and work on your boundaries. Then live by them. Since she brought crisis to the family. You being a marriage warrior and attacking the affair and the waywardness with a tough love approach is a way to place the crisis where it truly belongs. On her lap.

[Neode]

Is she still committing adultery?

To the best of my knowledge, no. Her ex that she was seeing broke it off with her (I think he felt somewhat guilty, having been cheated on by his ex-wife). The date with the other guy was called off, and she stopped talking to him after she was found out. As far as I know, there is nobody else in the picture.

Do not have sex with her when she is having sex with other men.

Didn't know she was at the time. I only found out for sure that there was adultery going on after the affairs had been ended.

Get to a doctor and get checked out. Full tests. Do not be stupid here. This is your health your playing with.

Already got the referral, just need to get time to go to the lab to get the tests done.

Get to a lawyer for a free consultation after you go to your province's website for divorce and read up on your rights as a father and as a man. Then go ask questions. What to do and what not to do.

Will do. Probably should've done this months ago. I've been so focused on trying to prevent D that I didn't think to protect myself in the case that things go South. I'll try to make an appointment tomorrow.

DO NOT MOVE OUT. DO NOT LEAVE THE BEDROOM.

I won't. I made this clear to her a long time ago.

She is free to leave the marital bed is she chooses but you stay where you are.

So far I have resisted her attempts to leave the marital bed. Last time she asked was probably 3 weeks ago or so (well before I picked up DB). Should I bring it up and suggest that she leave the bed, or should I just not resist if she brings it up again?

If you want to move this forward quickly and skip a few months of limbo then detatch and work on your boundaries. Then live by them. Since she brought crisis to the family. You being a marriage warrior and attacking the affair and the waywardness with a tough love approach is a way to place the crisis where it truly belongs. On her lap.

Any advice on how to detach? Every time I think it might be time to move on, my stomach ties in knots and I end up feeling really needy, which doesn't improve the whole situation.

Do you mean set boundaries for myself, or for her? Given that she currently says she wants a divorce, I can't exactly tell her "don't do this or its over", can I? Should setting boundaries be saved for if/when she actually decides she wants to stay in the marriage?

Thanks for the advice.

[Neode]

She just phoned me at work (stuck working really late tonight) to let me know that the weather [censored], and to make sure that I have enough winter clothes, otherwise she'd come pick me up (normally take the train, have a 10 minute walk from the train to the house).

[lostsoul13]

The only advice I can give you on detaching is you have to believe there will be someone else who can make you happy and you need to get your life straight for that person. You can hope that person is your spouse but do not have expectations.

It takes awhile to tell yourself this, I am still struggling but as more days go by, I feel confident about myself.

Your kids are also your motivation, get a life for them too. Be the best dad ever because if your spouse is willing to walk away with kids so young, they may not be the best mom.

[chatterbug]

Detach.

Read up on the grieving cycle. Read up on PTSD. Learn why you are constantly cycling through thoughts.

Start doing some things for your self. Start doing some things with just the children. Could be a simple thing like take them for a walk. Or go to a coffee shop to read.

Exercise.

Pick up a self help book and work yourself through it and do the tasks.

What I am getting at here is that you need to create your own identity again.

If you used to play hockey and stopped. Pick it up again.

Stuff like that.

It is not moving on but it is you creating some space and some time so you can work through your thoughts.

It also creates mystery and it is an opportunity for her to wonder what you doing.

Detach. Does not mean ignore.



Boundaries are for you. Your wife will set her own boundaries.

They are not saved. They are lived.

A boundary you could have would be

I will not be involved with anyone who physically abuses me. So if someone broke this boundary you would remove yourself for the situation and then enforce your boundaries ( such as file a report with the police , remove that person from your life )

[AnotherStander]

^^ Great info from Chatterbug on detaching. Lostsoul too. Here's something else that might help, it was originally posted by Peanut:

Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.

We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them.

[Coach]

The only advice I can give you on detaching is you have to believe there will be someone else who can make you happy and you need to get your life straight for that person.

Look in the mirror and that is the person who is responsible for your happiness. Strong, confident, in-charge and going places is very attractive.

[DaddyLongShanks]

^^ Great info from Chatterbug on detaching. Lostsoul too. Here's something else that might help, it was originally posted by Peanut:

Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.

Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.

We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them.

Whats so hard about detachment with respect to a WAS situation, is that you still "want them". I just wanted to comment on that, and how hard it is to lose that "want them" feeling...

[Neode]

Had a bit of a bad moment today. Normally on Wednesdays and Thursdays, I come home from work early to watch the kids, so she can go to work. Today, it turned out she didn't have to work, but she never bothered to let me know, so I could stay get more work done. When I got home, she asked if I minded if she went to the mall with her friend, and I got annoyed with her for being so inconsiderate.

[Neode]

This morning something odd happened. We had a disagreement related to raising the children, which is not so unusual. But then, as I was getting ready to leave for work, I went into the older son's bedroom (where both children and my W were at the time) to give the kids a hug and a kiss goodbye. Because the older son sometimes questions why I don't kiss mommy goodbye when he notices (we haven't talked to him about the marital difficulties yet), I just gave her a quick hug and a kiss on the cheek. She said "Thank you", and said that I hadn't done that much lately.

Would I be correct in interpreting this, as well as her increased willingness to cuddle lately as a good sign? Should I continue kissing her in the morning, or keep holding back?

Help me interpret what's going on. Thanks!

[Neode]

Not much interesting happening lately. Last night she initiated a talk about our relationship, asking my why I still want to pursue it.

I answered that I still have feelings for her, though I'm not sure if I still love her or not. I told her that our old marriage is dead and gone, but that I hope we can build something better out of what's left, to the benefit of both of us and the kids. I added that going forward, we'd each need to be responsible for our own happiness, and that hopefully the marriage would serve as an enhancement to that, rather than us trying to make it the sole source.

[AnotherStander]

I just gave her a quick hug and a kiss on the cheek. She said "Thank you", and said that I hadn't done that much lately.

Would I be correct in interpreting this, as well as her increased willingness to cuddle lately as a good sign?

I'd say that reaction is a good sign. If she had pulled away, been stiff as a board or said something like "that was a little much" then it would be a bad sign.

Should I continue kissing her in the morning, or keep holding back?

I wouldn't every morning. Just play it by ear, if she seems receptive then go for it, otherwise maintain your distance. If she initiates then that would be a great sign.

Last night she initiated a talk about our relationship, asking my why I still want to pursue it.

Your response was good, but next time try to get her to talk. You want to be a great LISTENER.

"successful DBers are outstanding listeners. They let their spouse do 80% of the talking when there is dialog. When they speak they speak 'lovingly' with candor and honesty."

So you might have ended with "how do you feel about this?" and if she starts to open up then validate her feelings.

[NickB]

I am heartened to read posts like this. So much great information to take away and good validation that staying the course matters on each interaction. Thanks for sharing.

[Neode]

Well, I did poorly today. I made the mistake of starting a conversation about our relationship. It ended in an argument for half an hour, that finished around midnight.

The past week without me initiating conversations went so well, too. Live and learn.

It's somewhat ironic that the only way for us to have a relationship is if I don't talk about our relationship.

[AnotherStander]

Well, I did poorly today. I made the mistake of starting a conversation about our relationship.

<pounds head on desk> What in the world, this must be the 3rd post I've read in the last hour on here like this from different people! Stop it with the R talks already! It'll never go your way and will probably ruin what progress you've made! I can't remember where I copied this from, but I liked it so much I stuck it in a file with other stuff I read every week or so for inspiration and reminders, it explains why you should NOT initiate R talks:

Every time you say to her “But, I love you”, you are saying “but I want something different than what you want. You want to pull away, but I want you to come closer. I don’t really care what you want. It’s what I want that’s important.”

Lots of times men tell their wives “I’ve changed. I’ve changed. Let’s get back together. I’ve changed.”

I tell the husbands that Every time you say “I’ve changed”, you’re communicating to her that you have not changed.

Really? Why is that? How is that? I don’t understand that.

Of course, you don’t understand. But what’s your motivation? Why are you telling him or her how you’ve changed? What’s your purpose? Isn’t it to get your way?

Yeah, I want her back.

That’s your way. It’s not her way, right now. She said she may consider it later, maybe, but not right now. And every time you say “I’ve changed”, you’re saying “Give me my way! Give me my way! Give me my way! What I want is more important than what you want. I don’t give a hoot what you want.”

And subconsciously, she says “He hasn’t changed. He’s still the neurotic, selfish, pressuring guy he always was. There’s no way I’m going to go back to him, or feel positive to him as long as he is this way.”

[Neode]

I wasn't quite that bad. I didn't say "I love you" or "I've changed" or even "lets try to make things work" or anything to that effect.

I asked how she was feeling about things, and whether she had any current plans either way. Even still, it didn't end well. Hopefully I won't make that mistake again.

[Neode]

Odd happenings last night.

We were watching TV, as we often do in the evenings. I was also chatting with one of my (female) friends on my phone at the time. Wife got upset with me, called me a hypocrite (one of my big complaints about her used to be her chatting on the phone all the time).

Fast forward to bed time. Started with a good night kiss, then one thing led to another... Immediately afterwards, she started crying. At first, I thought I had hurt her (she fell down some stairs at a restaurant last week, and has had a sore back), but she said that wasn't it, and wouldn't tell me what was wrong. A little later, I asked her again, and she said that she didn't want to talk about it, that it didn't change anything anyways. Later still, she told me that she had been crying because she didn't feel anything for me during sex (no love, lust, or even attraction). I'm not sure why she cried this time, when the last few times she's said she didn't feel anything for me either.

I'm confused.

[LaPoo]

Hi Neode, She probably cried bc she is confused as well. She is defintely not going to tell you that she did feel something when she's been trying so hard not too. W probably only responded because she felt pressured to do so after you asked her twice what was wrong. She felt something or else she would not be crying. Hmmmmmm...Let her cry and get it out. Just be supportive. Don't ask why just make her feel you're there for support.

[Neode]

I know I shouldn't have pressed her, I was just kind of in shock.

I asked her twice, once right after I made sure she wasn't physically hurt, and once when she said that it didn't change anything. Later, she asked me if I really wanted to know why, and that's when she told me the last bit.

[Neode]

More good news?

She asked me today if we could plan a date night, to go out dancing. So we're going out on the 1st (already have things planned for the intervening Saturdays, and Saturday is the easiest day for us to get a babysitter).

[Neode]

Yesterday, not today...