Thought i'd bring my last post over from my old thread - just for fun!!
latest breaking news flash
Zig's new toilet brush is installed and been used for the very first time! She is delighted with the new style, color and efficiency which has provided her with a very shiny, clean toilet bowl
Zig declares that she has already forgotten what the old brush looked like , and highly recommends revamping toilet brush styles every once in a blue moon.
Zig is inviting the Picnic Sisters and everyone else over to the blanket tonight, to drink, be merry and she's bringing pics of her new toilet brush for any one who wants to see
If she ever does find the old one - it's getting tossed....
On lists....
10 Things You Must Give Up to Move Forward
1. Letting the opinion of others control your life
2. The shame of past failures
3. Being indecisive about what you want
4. Procrastinating on the goals that matter to you
5. Choosing to do nothing
6. Your need to be right
7. Running from problems that should be fixed
8. Making excuses rather than decisions
9. Overlooking the positive points in your life
10. Not appreciating the present moment
from marcandangeldotcom
on Turtles...
Peace is swimming with us this week. She's showing us that there are a lot of dimensions to peace - the inner peace that is so hard to acquire, the mental peace we are all so desperately striving for...
She often swims with other Turtles - Acceptance, Surrender and Letting Go. She seems to have a special connection with each of them
The funny thing that I have noticed with this particular Turtle, is that while she is still growing, she seems to get shattered quite easily, but then after a little time with Self Nurturing, she seems to pull herself back together...
The other day she reported that while she was swimming around she passed by a whole bunch of ropes that had been thrown in the ocean - she said it was very odd - only one end of each rope was floating and the other end seemed to stretch out of the water across the land and disappear into that old broken down castle at the edge of the forest. She said she couldn't even begin to imagine what that was all about!
All she knew was that there was a non-stop picnic going on up on her beach, with some rather noisy rambunctious people who were running around with toilet brushes, and shields and there was a very large elephant there too. They had invited her to join them and she figured, what the heck, she'd try some of that Red Velvet Cake and they HAD promised that they'd go swimming with her after...
I LOVE IT!!! I AM TOTALLY THERE! You're description makes me want to include some naked lady running around with the toilet brush chanting! LMAO!!!!
I love the list!
got the naked lady - just for you vero
she's not totally naked - she's wearing a hot pink flower in her .... flowing hair....
Isn't that list great?
Today I suddenly realized that Lists are the WAY TO GO!! So i'm going to be all about lists for a bit. Just reading that list makes me feel like I am halfway there!!
We are becoming a slightly MORE insane versions of the yaya sisterhood. Have you seen that film?
I LOVE that list. In fact I've bookmarked this page.
You've always been the queen of lists my dear Zig...starting with the Goal lists.
I've been thinking about my perfect partner list. I need to get busy on that.
Love that list, sweet zig!
I have already cut and pasted it. thank you.
I also loved your story about PEACE and the dropped ropes. thank you for writing and sharing that, it really did help me feel more peaceful.
I love who you are, sweet zig.. your encouragement and spirit are contagious! (((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))
Busting this is especially for you. I'm putting the link here so that you can go and read the whole thing - I think it will really help you right now.
http://www.marcandangel.com/2012/09/10/10-things-i-wish-i-knew-10-years-ago/10 Things I Wish I Knew 10 Years Ago
1. Loving someone should not mean losing YOU
2. Getting even doesn’t help you get ahead.
3. You attract what you show to the world.
4. Failure is success when you learn from it
5. You are not what you have done, but what you have overcome
6. Your past can only hurt you today if you let it
7. It’s never too late to become the person you are capable of being
8. Passion is important.
9. The pain is worth it
10. Sometimes what you don’t want is what you need
Just to clarify - I didn't make these lists - they are form this amazing persons blog - hope you'll all go explore what he has to say
I thought I'd bring them here to help us all move forward. Hope it's not considered bad internet etiquette to do so (as long as give him credit?)
Wow, lots of good stuff there. Thanks.
wow zig thank you!!
I will look through it right now!
I love you guys!
I love lists! How's your day been so far? Mine, good ;-)
I love that list! Those are things I wish I knew 40 years ago!
I want my granddaughter to know this!
glad everyone liked it - i felt like i hit the gold mine yesterday when i found it and couldn't wait to share it with all of you
i had a good day - did spend a lot more time on the computer than i had originally planned - oops. need to get more focused with work, and go write my new goals list.
i'm a little sad tonight - s was not good on the phone - and i'm struggling with having to see it and not be able to do anything about it. will think about whether i will talk to h about it or not.
hope you are all well
zig
how old is your grand daughter? i was thinking i'm going to introduce some of this to s also
she's only 9 but it's not too early, IMO. i think we are programed culturally and genetically to nurture. however, a lot of us do so to an extreme where we sacrifice way too much of ourselves, trying to make someone else happy and trying to be "good" (perfect).
that's how some of us got here (me). we didn't have boundaries and became co-dependent.
i want better for her and her little sister (2 1/2).
i agree with every word you wrote. i want better for s also and decided i'm going to start teaching him that - well, after I myself get it better!!
What does this mean:
i'm a little sad tonight - s was not good on the phone - and i'm struggling with having to see it and not be able to do anything about it. will think about whether i will talk to h about it or not. ?
she's only 9 but it's not too early, IMO. i think we are programed culturally and genetically to nurture. however, a lot of us do so to an extreme where we sacrifice way too much of ourselves, trying to make someone else happy and trying to be "good" (perfect).
that's how some of us got here (me). we didn't have boundaries and became co-dependent.
i want better for her and her little sister (2 1/2).
Lucky kids to have you, SS, around. Your S too Zig. Sometimes I forget that what we are learning and how we are growing has the potential to impact everyone in our lives. It truly is amazing.
I agree. I do think about starting to share some of this with my Kids as well. We have learned so much and if we can teach them these things than there is a potential to not encounter so much hardship and pain in the later years.
I have to admit i have already starting employing stop thoughting with my kids. For a bad dream, or a scary thought (mama will i get bullied at school?). I hope it helps. and there is so much more to give them...
zig---are you okay? why were you sad???
((((( ))))
Thought stopping, not stop thoughting....ugh...
hi everyone - sorry i haven't replied - and it's almost redundant now why i was sad last night.
I just spent the day completely undoing close to 13 mos. of DB'ing!
I pretty much threw h out of my house, and told him he didn't deserve my respect, consideration or my sympathy. This, of course was after the argument when he shouted at me that I hadn't changed one damn bit and I was still the same as I always was!
then he called - as usual about 8 mins later - and left a voice mail kind of apologizing and saying we needed to talk. i didn't call him back. then i cried like hell from frustration for quite a while. then i read about double-binds for an hour! and boy had he had me in one big time - the same damn one as always - and i finally figured out the dynamics.
when i called to say goodnight to s - he picked up the phone and asked - do you want to talk now or after s goes to sleep. I answered, Sorry I don't want to talk with you.
he said ok in this off hand voice and gave the phone to s.
after that i read some more, then i talked to mom - found out that i had grown up with non-stop double binds that my dad put her in - and that still continue! from my reading - a common thing apparently that you grow up with that!
So here I am and what I've found out it is that double binds come in layers and often creates another double bind. and there was already one big very complicated one that played out and after that I found that the new one was how to respond - if I call him, I'm guaranteed that the original bind will play out, if i don't talk to him then I'm doing the withdrawal - more of the same.
my mom and i talked for a long while - and then eventually i started working out the solution just by thinking out loud to her. i'm not completely articulate with it yet. there are only 2 basic solutions - to take it away from him or to completely walk away. completely walking away means that we have nothing to do with each other any longer in terms of parenting with s - and of course there's the other double bind...
in the middle of me thinking it out - on top of all of that - i discover how i have neglected his LL - and that's what triggered this off I believe.
So i need help from you all about that - I think I see where I went wrong but I can't point to exactly how I could have affirmed it - or can I? I'll describe what happened and now i KNOW that this happened REPEATEDLY almost everyday!!
A few days ago I asked h that if he wasn't using the stereo till his house was ready, could I use it for a couple of months since i didn't have one. He said sure. Today when he picked up s from school the teacher said - I've asked you guys to get indoor shoes for s for 3 weeks now, please get them asap. h leaves me a message this afternoon - do we have any slippers for s at your house. I leave a message saying no, you'll have to go get some and thanks i really appreciate it if you take care of it. he calls around 5, says I didn't listen to your message what did you say, I repeat he says ok (note: i do not offer to go get them, i refuse to do an act of service which is possibly his LL). then he says I've pulled the stereo out , can we bring it over right now? I say you don't have to go out of your way to come here this late, i can get it on the weekend. he insists. i say ok.
he brings the stereo over. i thank him and greet them sort of friendly - while he's carrying it in i follow s into the kitchen. when we come back to the front i say that's great - but he's checking out the row of shoes and slippers that are here. pulls out a pair of flip-flops from 3 years ago - yes, why are they still here - i haven't bothered to give them away!! INSISTS that s put them on and has to squeeze s's foot into it and s and i are telling him they are too small. he keeps insisting they are fine, and we are both still saying that they don't fit him anymore.
he gets mad, because i won't let him see for himself - I get irritated because he won't take my word for it, s is caught in the middle trying to be heard that he can't wear them- beginning of the double bind. we go back and forth for several minutes
this time i walk away when i see it's not getting us anywhere, saying - i'm stepping out of this - you guys figure it out.
he calls me back and starts sorting through all the shoes - there were about 6 pairs there - mostly winter shoes and s's feet grew over the summer and they are suddenly too small. he packs them in a bag to give to his friends. he starts insisting again that those slippers fit s - and i just say to s - wear those for the next couple of days, dad obviously doesn't want to go get a pair, so when you come back on friday we'll go get you another
okay - so that was probably not the right thing to say - but i was really fed up. then i asked h to come outside and talk to me.
BAD f'ing idea - i WAS calm and i just said quietly- h when you don't just accept that i said the shoes don't fit, it makes me feel as if you don't trust that i can make a judgement call about that. he lost it! he went on about how he didn't want to hear anything from me and he wanted to see for himself.
so i validated him - said i was sorry i didn't realize that that was what he needed - to see for himself, - but he really got into it and got up to walk off - afterwards i realized - it's ok for HIM to call me outside on the deck to talk to me, but it's NOT okay for me to ask for that.
he stayed a bit longer though - but just went on a roll about how what i was saying didn't matter, and if i felt like that it wasn't relevant and the only relevant thing was that i stopped him from seeing for himself.
i was stupid - i argued with him - pointing out that he hadn't been here for a year so he didn't see that s didn't fit in those. [censored] that set him off and next thing he's shouting you haven't changed at all - you're still the damn same you've always been. why has all of this suddenly become an issue in these last weeks (my boundaries???? - that i won't pick up the slack on his lack of parenting if we are d). i replied - because i don't want to parent with you in this way and i want the way we interact to be better, so once again - the only reason this comes up is because you zig haven't changed and your'e still the damn same, and it's still the same [censored].
and i started to cry a bit and said get out of my house - you don't deserve a shred of consideration etc - he walked back in, and i followed him to the front and said - lets put the stereo back in your car, you can take it with you. he says - what's the stereo got to do with this. i just said - i don't want anything from you right now. so i loaded it back myself - he made some smart a$$ comments and i said something off hand and then they left
SIGH!!
so i see now after much thought - he did something nice for me - brought the stereo. i said thank you in my LL. a minute later when i questioned him making s try the slippers on - what HE heard was zig is not appreciating this act of love that i just did for her (bringing the stereo over)
so he set up the bind - and i got caught in it. when i asked him to come outside and "confronted" him by trying to say what i felt (because that's how he hears it) he reacted in the typical way that the coercer in the double bind reacts - denied that i could possibly have those feelings, insist that the whole situation happened because 'I hadn't changed" and used anger and threat to control it - the unspoken threat was - you haven't changed so why should i come back?
SIGH!!
If i had kept quiet - and let HIM FIND OUT FOR HIMSELF that the slippers did not fit - none of this would have happened would it?
So now - after this long tirade - gosh i thought i was so past this - i have a decision to make - walk away completely - and not have any discussions and basically REFUSE to discuss this with him, or validate his position completely and say h, i should have let you see for yourself that the slippers didn't fit.
otoh - i am leaning towards the first - only because in his "quasi apology" on the phone he made a point to say that things went bad because I misunderstood what he was saying. (once again, part of the double bind where he puts the blame for the situation entirely on me)
frankly it's very hard to misunderstand when you hear a person repeatedly saying "this is all because of you, i don't care that you say you have these feelings, you make every thing psychological, you haven't changed , you haven't changed , you haven't changed...." SH!T those words are still ringing in my ears hours later - he couldn't have pushed my buttons any worse than that could he?
all because i said very calmly - h, those slippers don't fit s anymore...
and the WORST double bind of all:
damned if i am nice, damned if i am a b!tch - he's still going to get crazy on me either way....
I think i'm being coerced into becoming the WAW here pretty damn soon.
The feeling that i am left with after all that happened is "i must have done something wrong, but i cannot figure out what it is", along with a feeling of helplessness.
when i found this = i understood so much about what has been going on here . h applies the 'can't talk' rule to us. he denies both s and me any acknowledgement that our feelings exist. because if WE have any feeling it reflects on his performance - so the only ones that we can legitimately show to him are only very positive ones. following the db rules and acting as if i was happy etc for all these months, kept the peace wonderfully - he was getting exactly what he wanted. now when i have withdrawn and do not give him anything, and i question his controlling behavior - his old pattern of shutting me down rises up big-time. all was well for this last year because i didn't question anything
The "Can't talk" Rule
This rule is applicable to any system (family, friendship, marriage, political or religious group) that uses unhealthy manipulation and coercion to control the behavior and feelings of others. Jeff Van Vonderen labeled and uses this rule when counseling families during interventions (He appears on the A&E channel's show called Intervention.) I would imagine that all relationships or systems (no matter how loving or healthy) can apply the "Can't Talk" to some degree.
Dr. Van Vonderen defines it:
The dynamic: Relationships and behaviors are manipulated by very powerful unspoken rules. These rules are seldom, if ever, are said out loud. The only time you can be sure that an unspoken rule is there is if you break it. In fact, when spoken out loud many of [these rules] sound ridiculous. No one says out loud, "What people think about us is more important than what is really happening." Yet the unspoken rules communicate these and other shaming messages.
Two specific unspoken rules that are more damaging than any others are these: "Can't talk," and "Can't win."
The "Can't-talk" rule keeps people quiet by labeling them as the problem if they notice and confront a problem. [This rule] goes something like this: "There really aren't any problems here. If you think there is a problem, you are the problem."
The truth of the matter is that some parents [or friends, spouses, groups, etc.] are threatened, and afraid of what the existence of a problem "says" about them as human beings and leaders. In other words, if there is a problem--or even a question--then the person raising the issue must be challenging them [in a negative way]. No matter how gently the questions is raised, you become the issue in a shame-based system. It's as if naming a problem out loud caused the problem to exist, which, of course, is not true. Individuals in this kind of system learn not to bring up a problem or question for fear of making waves. Because people feel they cannot talk about an unspoken rule, they learn to talk in "code" to convey what they mean.
The "Can't-talk" rule is given in shame-based relationships for three reasons:
1. If my value and acceptance are earned by my performance, then any lapse in performance shames me and can't be talked about.
2.If a lapse in my performance cannot be covered up, then I must project the blame away from myself so I can avoid being shamed. Therefore, if you confront me, I'll blame you for making a big deal out of nothing, or for being oversensitive.
3. In order for all of the unspoken rules to have power to control people's lives, they must remain unspoken. "Can't talk" keeps them that way.
The "Can't-talk" rule shames anyone who brings the unspoken rules into the light. Left in the dark, the rules have an incredible amount of power. While they remain unspoken they have power to control. When they are said out loud, they look as inappropriate and shaming as they are (Van Vonderen, "Tired of Trying to Measure Up: Getting Free From the Demands, Expectations, and Intimidation of Well-Meaning People", pp. 51-52).
Originally Posted By: StubbornDyke
What's my mantra? Listen, observe, validate, think "isn't that interesting?" and STFU. So far, so good. I'm sure I'll need duct tape before long.
Too bad I didn't read stubborns post BEFORE they came over
oh well - i can't say I have a lot of regrets here - can't help feeling that I learned so much today, that it was worth it....?
Or am I just kidding myself!
This is what I've already said on this subject:
He's not judge and jury of your progress. I know we sometimes think that all we want is for our spouses to see our changes. But even if you two never reconciled I think you're happier to have grown and learned these past few months. Maybe he needs to tell himself that, maybe he's stubborn, maybe he wanted to hurt you. I don't know. But what do you believe? Because that's what matters. I wish I was there to give you a great big hug!!!
Let's say there was a massive explosion in a building. What would authorities do? Tend the the wounded, make sure everyone was safe, create boundaries around the area do traffic could get by (that's your first step take care of you, nurse your hurt feelings, create a few boundaries) then only after all the people were cleared, the fire put out, the structure deemed safe would investigators go in to determine where it happened, why it happened, and if anyone was at fault.
..
Having read the story I will say this...
What jumped out at me was how much of it was about him:
his feelings, his LL, him figuring out the slippers, etc.
I'm your friend, I'm in your corner, and I'm going to say about you that...The man is not even bothering listening to voicemails. You're right all communication happens on his terms: on the deck, phone calls, etc.
I will also say that just like you are sitting here regretting some things that you said in anger he may be doing the same thing. Don't choose that one sentence he said and hold on it and use it to hurt yourself again and again.
You know what? we know you've changed...the zig that goes to concerts and trips and events on her own. The zig that wears crazy colours she never would have chosen in the past. In fact you could probably make a much better list than I could...so maybe in the spirit of loving lists you should make a little list and remind yourself of all the ways you've grown.
Maybe he chose that one thing because he knew it would hurt you. maybe it's his defense and he's looking to pounce the one time you falter a tiny bit. But all of that is mind reading and focusing on him.
To be honest dear girl I don't know ANYONE that wouldn't have lost patience with his insanity over the slippers. So perhaps the parenting terms and boundaries will need to be redrawn. But you deserve common courtesy and politeness...and he didn't give you that.
Please please please don't beat yourself up. Everyone falls down, everyone says things they don't like. After I had the big freak out in the field and felt like I'd undone anything I'd built...It was like well that happened and now it won't anymore.
This is what stood out to me--why is a father trying to tell a 10 year old what shoes do and don't fit him?
You have control issues, he has control issues. Take a break from him. As Brit says, he's not the judge of your changes or how you live your life.
Drop the rope.
Oh.... I was raised in a can't talk system-you can choose not to do that anymore and choose to have people in your life who don't adhere to that rule.
It's the healthiest thing you can do.
zig, be easy on yourself. sometimes their craziness it just too much to ignore.
and you're right, it would be impossible to live the rest of your life not talking about things because it makes someone else uncomfortable.
it would be nice if your H could discuss things without blaming.
(((((((((((((sweet zig)))))))))
DBing does not mean they get to be in CONTROL of everything, just their own lives..
what stands out to me too is what bug said...H telling your son what shoes fit him. and how h started packing up the other old shoes (did he ask you?)..
if he did not want to go to the store last night, how about him nicely asking S if he could manage wearing those for a few days until they could get new ones?
and him throwing out there that you haven't changed.. as if one incident outweighs all the compassionate ways you have treated him during this... the way you handled the day at the mediator, that was a gift to him.. and so many other days that you have showed him true grace and compassion.. for him to try and negate those due to this small incident does not seem fair.
i think in some way he is using it to defend himself against his own guilt..
he may have already realized some of this..it would be interesting to hear what he says when you are ready to talk about it with him.
i think in some way he is using it to defend himself against his own guilt..
I agree my dearest zig...(((( )))))
He wants to make himself believe that you have not changed so he can continue to justify his decisions....and we ALL know better than that. And we have all learned that the WAS will continue to do this until...they simply cannot. So it should have ZERO effect on you.
this is HIS spin...not yours.
And when he does bring it up and talk about it, you can continue to be, whether he sees it or not, the better you that you have become.
i think its a good night for picnic...come back to the blanket zig...let the castle shake on its own....
thanks everyone for your replies
I don't really know where i'm at this morning - or should i say this afternoon!!
i did something that i haven't really done since BD - i slept until almost noon.
which in and of itself is not a big deal, but in my case it's very significant.
That's what i did those 5 yrs when i shut down - and suddenly now i see what would make me do that. it was the constant occurences like yesterday - i would get helpless and paralysed and i would stay up half the night and then have no incentive to wake up the next day.
Right now i'm in flight mode - but oddly i'm relatively calm, but also have my eyes open. this time i'm seeing what state the big double bind and the "no talk" rule sends me into. i'm just observing.
i talked alot with my hypnotherapist friend yesterday - before all this went down. we talked about what the deeper issues surrounding me feeling invisible are about. I think that my reactions after this sort of interaction with h leaves me feeling so invisible that my mind goes into complete detached mode as a defense mechanism - there is some unresolved stuff here for me that is probably connected to the sexual abuse _there was a very strong "no talk' rule there, i imagine.
So when i went into that situation i was probably hyper-aware and determined NOT to feel invisible, and my insistence on that sent h into a tailspin. then i did what i always did - which was to KEEP ON trying not to be invisible. (the other side of the coin is that possibly h feels invisible when i try to tell him what is)
This is not about h or his freaky control issues. this is about how i need to get myself out of this. i'm a little scared right now - not fearful, just a little scared. I don't really know what about - so am going to wait and just observe myself quietly
labug - when you said one has to choose NOT to be involved in the no talk situation, could you help me to see how i can do that here, please?
I see that always the only "resort" i had was to walk away - emotionally and shut down. and not engage with h any longer. Now i can sense that there's possibly another way, but cannot see what it is.
Is it as simple as me just saying to h - h i'm sorry that i did not recognize that you needed to see for yourself, and i should have just let you do that instead of trying to tell you my version?
I cannot decide if that is just me appeasing him or the true "taking the stick away" strategy of dissolving the double bind.
This morning all i can see is that i have to get as far away from him as possible until i can ground myself in my OWN self again. Flight or just plain common sense? I can't even tell which one it is. it's not that i'm angry or worried about what happens with h and whether he'll come back or not. that has almost become irrelevant now.
The best thing for me right now is to quietly go work and focus on that and totally trust that this time the right answer will come. I don't need to be scared, i don't need to be fearful that being invisible is some sort of threat to me.
i love you all - and i'm going for a swim right now, so come join me
zig
This morning all i can see is that i have to get as far away from him as possible until i can ground myself in my OWN self again.
This sounds like a great idea... Move on from yesterday's incident. Today is a new day, a new opportunity to be good to yourself.
Here is a little something that always helps me lift my spirits after a backslide or when I am going thru a wave of pain - from The Dalai Lama. I hope it helps:
"Every day, think as you wake up. Today I am fortunate to have woken up. I am alive, I have a precious human life. I am not going to waste it. I am going to use all my energies to develop myself, to expand my heart out to others, to achieve enlightment for the benefit of all beings. I am going to have kind thoughts towards others, I am not going to get angry, or think badly about others. I am going to benefit others as much as I can."
((((zig))))
(((((((((sweet Zig)))))))))
sounds to me like another growth step is brewing for you.. i love the way you sit and reflect and read and question and then you take all of it, and evolve.. you have done that consistently and i sense you are doing it now..
i wish kd were here too. i am reminded though of his words to several DBers about encouraging our spouse's best self...
and i wonder how you are to do that now.. while also becoming the person you want to be...
i have been upset with your H about what he said to you... and then i remembered pema or jack kornfield saying how we hurt others out of our own pain and fear. ( i have been trying hard to remember that about my W as well. )
and i think again that M is the place we confront our deepest fears and hurts.. and perhaps we either run away, hurt each other, hide them away or heal..
i think it is good that you are taking time... and i trust that you will figure this out, you always do, zig, you always do. love you!
((((((Zig))))))
something that you said struck a chord with me and what NG said about how we hurt others out of our own pain and fear.
the past several days i have been thinking not so much as getting H back as my immediate goal, but trying to create more time (thats not really my point) but what has been floating to my surface is our communication and the way we interact. I have been very uncomfortable with the way we interact. its a soft passive aggressiveness that almost underlines anything we say to each other outside the safe circle of the kids.
i have been trying to reflect on this. because i don't like what it makes me feel and i don't like that i can't just converse with this man that will be in my life well...basically always...no matter what our legal status.
taking a step back is good i think. and i also have been very conscious of expectations i may have been holding on to since he has been back (that he would see my changes and it would make a difference).
i guess what i am trying to say is that like has been said, while we make our changes, we cannot expect our spouses to see, appreciate or react to them in the way we would hope. So the only thing we can do is encourage their best behavior...and i will add, respect.
the question is how? i am still figuring it out but am thinking its by continuing being our best, and respecting ourselves and loving ourselves.
i am diving in now....lets go find Calm and do a shot while we are at it.
((((( )))))
thanks so much keep going - i am going to put that up on my wall.
and what i am so delighted with is that after my last post i went out to run errands, and as i was driving the answers came to me - and they were just along the same lines.
My lesson here is:
How to stay open-hearted and kind, even when things happen which don't feel good to me
How to NOT shut down when I want to very badly, because I hurt.
And the answer that came to me - actually several insights -was that I don't need h's approval, I don't need to be heard to be visible, I don't need to be right in this and most of all I DON"T NEED TO TALK.
Suddenly after all this time - I have finally reached the place where I don't need to be visible for h or have it proven to me in any way that I am. I also don't need to be visible to anyone else - I can see zig, I can feel zig and that's all I need.
I had decided when I got home that i would text him and say that yes, let's talk, but not right away.
Before i could do that - a text from him. "I would like to talk sometime about yesterday when/if you want"
I replied back:"Yes I think that will be nice. I need some time though. I will let you know when I am ready. I have a lot to think about and process through right now. Thanks, z"
and there's still more processing to be done, and i feel so ok - i just trust that it will get clearer and i also trust that there will be many many more occasions to learn about myself
- for the rest of my life.
now KD's words are always in my mind - You cannot un-know something...
zig
Hey Zig, You are handling this well.
You're right - just sit for a while and the right answers - for you - will come.
And on that "You haven't changed at all" line,
Please remember it is standard script.
The interesting thing, I believe, is that to comment like this, our H's MUST have noticed that we have changed - and they can't deal with it.
So they come out with this pearl at the first possible opportunity to reduce their unease.
I'd take it as a good sign, actually.
He's definitely noticed how much you've changed, and it's making him think.
But enough of him. This is about you, as you've realised, and you are doing just fine at the moment.
Keep up the great work!
Zig,
H n I have had these arguments before and it would happen more in the beginning from 0-6/7mos of sitch. Although everyone has their own timeline don't assume this argument is a deal-breaker.
I distinctly remember H saying, So you've been faking it this whole time! (referring to me acting 'as if').
OR
H saying, You've ruined any progress we've made. (i.e. we are DONE)
Since then we bounce back from these setbacks a lot faster and it actually brings us a lot closer!
What's the *magic*? That after we've both cooled down we open up and our true feelings come out in a much more constructive way. Nonjudgemental, More recognition of their feelings. IOW; more of a consensus.
I now realize that H is sooo much more sensitive then he comes off to be (as most men are!) AND I struggle to soften the blows. When I communicate, I throw punches!
I hope that if and when you both do talk that you're able to speak from a place within.
Sweety, we love you and want you to continue growing. It's all about PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION! Big hugs!!!
**Also, let S tell him the shoes didn't fit. Walk away sooner than you did. That was between H n S. Don't get yourself intertwined in that discussion. I get how you felt but you needed to detach from that discussion sooner. Do you seriously thing S is going to wear small shoes to school just cuz dad told him? If he does, he's going to complain to his teacher and teacher's gonna give you guys a call and H is going to learn ON HIS OWN that he needs to buy S some indoor shoes.
Also, How important is it??
i agree with vero. wait and consider what he said as script. my H used to take any objection i had as "another reason we can't be together". i finally told him i refuse to walk on eggshells, waiting for something i said to be "another reason".
let your H know that you are surprised he feels that way because you KNOW you've changed and addressed things in a positive way and you are happy with yourself. but he's entitled to his opinion even though you don't agree.
don't be threatened with abandonment when you feel differently than he does.
(((((Zig)))))
Yay, you're figuring it out. I was thinking that Pia's boundary lessons would be really helpful.
One thing she talks about is that when the other person tells us something that we don't think is true, we're not supposed to leap up to defend ourselves (not until we're much more experienced at this). That's exactly where my current mantra comes in.
She also persistently points out that no one makes us feel anything so we have to stop using the phrase "makes me". It's our own thoughts that create our feelings. And one way or another, we choose those.
Just to top it off, she says that we can tell other people what's going on for us that was triggered (not caused) by what they did. The catch is that we're not allowed to tell them if we're trying to get them to change. (Unless it's a boundary violation - then we can ask them to stop, but still be prepared to remove ourselves from the line of fire if they don't care to cooperate.)
It seems that you found your own path to a similar understanding before I got caught up on your thread. Zena!
Want to go in with me and NG on that case of duct tape?
busting, ng, ss, vero, brit, labug, keep_going, NLW -
(((((((((( ))))))))))
thank you so much for all your replies. i know that i could sit and discuss with each of you what you wrote to me - your words are firmly embedded in my heart - but instead i'm going to tell the story of what happened today
and maybe you will see what i saw, and know that i am really in a good place.
as my "stories usually go, it will be a little long - for me details always connect and are significant...every part of this story became an analogy, that i could connect to the events in my life
So right after I got that order almost 3 weeks ago, my serger broke - or started acting up. I was a bit perturbed because I really need it for the order. So I took it in to be serviced and repaired. A few days later, I picked it up, brought it home - it worked 2 or 3 times and then did the same thing again - the day before I was leaving for Houston. The same day, my sewing machine also started bunging up really bad, and so of course, I was a bit unnerved - I needed them both.
As soon as I got back, I took the sewing machine in to a different place. He told me it was a 2 week wait as there were 30 machines in front of mine. I said I understood, explained that I had just got my first order and if there was any way he could do it sooner I would really appreciate it. Not expecting it to be ready for at least a week.
The next morning he called and said it was ready - he'd just decided to do mine first! I was in awe!
Then I took the serger in to the other place. When I spoke to the guy on the phone he got real funny with me when I asked if I could come at the same time as the man who arrives to fix the sergers, so I could show him directly what I saw was happening. He growled at me that they weren't there to give me free lessons. So i just said ok i'll drop it off. before i went there i said to myself - zig, you don't know what's up in his world, don't get all demanding and het up - and i just relaxed.
When i went in (last friday morning) he was all smiles and told me that he'd probably have it ready on saturday and he'd give me a call, and of course I wouldn't have to pay more.
Well, tuesday came and no word, so I called, Long story about the guy who fixes the sergers hadn't come in yet because he was on vacation and then got hit by a semi in OKC and was in the hospital. what was odd was that the guy didn't call me back. then he says, leave the serger for a week and let's see if he's back. I just said very mildly - you know, if he got hit by a semi, he probably isn't going to be able to work within a week. I need to finish this work by the end of this week, so how about I just come get it and take it somewhere else.
So i took it to the shop where i had the sewing machine fixed. He had been very nice the first time, and so I explained - look i took it to dave's and this is what happened, so any chance you can fit me in?
he looked at me and said - i know i probably shouldn't be telling you this, but i know dave and he called me last week and asked if i could fix your serger. i was quite confused!! he told dave to send me over, which dave didn't.
he said - i'm fixing one machine right now - but i will look at yours and call you back in a couple of hours. which he did. turned out when i walked in, that the mistake was mine - i just wasn't feeding the fabric in correctly, and he spent about 15 mins showing me how. he also told me that this wasn't so much a mistake on my part as that the fabric was extremely challenging and most would have thought the machine was broken. he said until he figured out the settings and the way to feed it in, he was having the same problems i did.
I was happy to admit my mistakes and lack of knowledge and really appreciative that he took the time to show me, fully expecting to pay him for his time.
Then he told me what really happened. Dave didn't HAVE a guy that came in to fix sergers - he'd never had one. he'd taken my serger, blew the fluff out and drenched the whole thing with oil (which i had noticed and puzzled over as it was dripping out the bottom) and then had told me parts had been replaced and charged me $80! this guy had cleaned all the extra oil out and told me nothing had been wrong with my machine.
while we were talking i mentioned how i'd always "coveted" one of those fancy sergers - the ones where it automatically feeds the thread in and you don't have to do it manually that i simply hated. he went into detail of what the "hidden costs" were with that fancy kind that was all bells and whistles - and i was like, oh wow, here i was wanting something that i didn't even know what it was truly about. (get the analogy
?) and immediately lost my desire for it!
I said to this guy, and I really wasn't upset, quite calm about the whole thing - maybe i should call Dave and ask for at least some of my money back.
And this is what the guy said to me - and as I stood there and listened, I was almost ready to be scared -
"Here's what you need to do, zig. go home and let it go. just drop it from your mind. you need to tell yourself that this [censored] just happens and just cut your losses and move on. don't call dave or talk to him about it. I know dave, and he's going to hear from me about this. You just go home and make your baby things and be happy I showed you how to work it"
then he absolutely refused to take a dollar from me. i didn't want to just leave, so i asked him if he had any grandchildren. he perked up and said yes an 8 month old and a 3 yr old. i said well can i make something for them? and he was really happy.
and as i drove home i got a little scared and cried - i think it was just having been given such a strong strong message by the universe - cried a bit for accepting it and not resisting it any longer - scared because i knew that i would have to be really really brave.
then i read all your messages and you were all standing up for me so much - just like this guy, and all telling me to be happy anyway in myself - just like this guy.
and so dear sweet friends - i AM happy where I am - and mostly because between the good things going on in my world and the not so good things - both are teaching me so much.
suddenly i start to hear pema's message about the good things and the bad things being equal. from the "bad" that happened yesterday - so much good is already coming out of it - i learned so much about myself and h, and in the middle of all of this, mil called and gave me some beautiful advice on how to take care of myself in this kind of situation, and here i am feeling so well prepared for whatever comes my way.
my horoscope for this week said, you are feeling stuck, but just trust that the universe will give you the signs when it's time to move forward..
I think it did today, don't you?
love you all
(((((((((((((((((((((((to all my beautiful friends here))))))))))))))))))))))))))
zig
stubborn - can you believe this - i don't need the duct tape.
as i was driving home today - i reached the place of understanding - i don't need to say anything i don't need to be right i can just BE
i suddenly saw how when i got rid of the fear of feeling invisible because of what h does or doesn't do, i didn't need to stand there and be heard.
I can hear myself, I can see my changes, I can see what I still have to change for myself and I am suddenly okay with that. everything else has suddenly become irrelevant.
all the kicking and screaming and shouting i've done all my life was to feel that i was more visible. now when i really am, TO MYSELF, i don't need those avenues any more
I may not need the duct tape but the Pia tapes sound like i could learn alot - what's the title, did u get them on amazon?
how are you stubborn? have to come over to see if you posted.
(((((((((((( ))))))))))))
zig
wow... sweet zig...
i sobbed reading your story about today
both bc of the beauty of it for you
and bc i needed to hear it too..
let it go and embrace the beauty that comes our way..
thank you zig for being you. i love who you are..
zig - I LOVE YOUR POST!!!
thanks for sharing your experience with us. I am very happy to see that you are in a good place.
I am also curious, though - what advice did your mil gave you? (if you don't mind sharing it, of course.
(((zig)))
Don't cry sweet grace (((((((( )))))))))- things will get better and better, and even though we are always striving to be in a more happier place, it's only by truly being okay with where we are that we can take the next step.
You're stepping all the time - forward.
and just like all of you can see my steps when i can't feel them at all, we can see yours
let it go and embrace the beauty that comes our way.. you just stated the crux of the law of attraction. the key is ( and it is the same message in DB'ing) to be happy anyway, no matter what is going on. to always look for and strive for the best place in one's thoughts and feelings and let the rest work itself out. if in the moment the best place is full of pain and sadness, to even embrace that and say to oneself - it's ok, this is where i am and things are getting better even though i don't always SEE that they are, i can trust that they are
so i think that the Turtle Trust, needs to be with us tonight and for a long time. let's go meet her shall we?
I forgot to look at my horoscope this morning - i just read it and I love it!
For all the sadges out there...
Your chart energy today reminds me of learning a new and challenging song on the guitar... The kind that requires you to play it over & over very slowly before letting yourself bring it up to full tempo... But all those repetitions, give you "finger memory" where you don't even have to think about where your fingers need to be... They go there automatically... Ok, bad example perhaps... But you have reached the point where you know know what has to be done without even thinking about it. It's time to play!!!
thanks keep going.
my mil called to ask how i was. we hadn't spoken in a week. then she asked about s - she said h and s got home yesterday and s walked in and looked incredibly sad and just lay down on the couch.
I told her what happened here at the house. and she told me that that was the exact dynamic that she and fil have struggled with. they went to lots of therapy together and she said that she still struggles with the "no talk" rule that fil always invokes.
her words were - "he feels very challenged when i give my opinion. what i learned during therapy was to detach from his reaction. to accept that it was alright that his reaction was anger, and to not see it as a reflection of myself or where i was at. that he had the right to his reaction just as i did."
i have read somewhere that one attracts the person who actually provides the most challenge within yourself in the area that you have to grow and unburden yourself from. when both are self-aware or willing to learn, then the relationship is successful and is continually growing and maturing because each challenge that comes up is taken by both as an opportunity to grow and learn.
the relationship is deeply troubled and in turmoil when this is not continually happening because one or both are using those same challenges as opportunities to defend themselves and put the blame on the other.
mil said that even though she knows this, she is continually challenged by the situation.
i feel as if i haven't described fully what she said. there was so much running through my head all at once, and i think i will ask mil to have the conversation again so i am sure that i didn't miss something
(((( ))))
zig
s's teacher called this afternoon and while we were talking, he told me that the last few days s is welling up and trying not to cry very frequently during the day.
my mama heart wanted to fix things right away. but we talked a while and i said to him - if i keep stepping in and trying to make s feel better, he can't learn to stand up for himself and say what he feels. i have to accept that he will experience some pain during all of this but i have to trust that if i let things be, he will be able to express himself more openly.
i told him that even though it hurts to hear that s is so sad, i also feel joy, because that means he is opening up and is able to let out some of what he feels.
we talked also about other issues - and he said something interesting that i of course zig-style jumped on right away
Each person only knows their own truth
later while i was knitting, this thought came to me:
Each person only has their own truth that they see and feel. When you recognize what the other persons' truth is, what will you do then? Apologize, or continue to say you were right?
it was such an eye opener for me - to apologize to someone not because you know you should, but to apologize because you have seen it from their eyes - that's the diamond in loving the people around you, in nurturing your relationships with those you love and even those you barely know. to see their truth is to see them and to know them. and when you speak to them from seeing their truth, then they really feel that you are speaking to the core of them, not just to the surface,
then we talked about h - teacher bought up himself that he felt that s was sad because of something with h's house - that he felt that s did not feel safe int he current situation. i was frank with him and said that h is in a place where any indication whatsoever that s maybe affected by the current sitch/ living arrangements, is met with a lot of anger and denial. (he had asked me if i could discuss this with h)
so we talked about that for a bit, and he himself suggested that instead of coming to me with stuff about s he should talk to h. i agreed and said that all i would suggest is that you say only the bare facts and do not "connect" them to anything in the situation. he had proposed that he brings up h's house. i also said, please do not have any expectations from h, but be prepared that h may feel very defensive when you tell him s is sad.
i said h is a wonderful father and he's not a bad person, but right now he doesn't seem to be able to deal with s being affected by this
and as i write this - oh my gosh, i am all shaky and i suddenly see where h has invoked the "no talk" rule here. we are not allowed, any of us to talk about s being affected in any way. we are not allowed to acknowledge that s could need help or support and subsequently s is suffering silently
h has gotten SOOOO angry at me or his mom or dad, whenever any of us have tried. and i suddenly see how he held me in that position.
so bug - how do i get out of this one and be able to talk about it?
no talk rule. My H follows the same idea in his family. Which is why he kept all his problems inside and went bezerk!
Sweety you are so fortunate to have such an insightful MIL! I'm soo jealous. My MIL is great too but very very different about relationship advice. Her thing is, lie to avoid hurting the person, don't show any negative feelings or express them, try to take care of everyone before yourself (*now you know why H spiraled into oblivion!)
Have a good night hun and get lot's of rest ;-)
Oh n eat 2 cookies and call me in the morning! LOL!
thanks vero, I am lucky - mil is truly a beautiful woman. she's got her own messes to deal with, but at least she is constantly self-aware and working on herself.
she paid me a beautiful compliment a few weeks ago. she told me that my changes had inspired her incredibly and had transformed the way she looked at her life
yesterday when i told her my reaction to finding out about the serger guy - her first reaction was to tell me how wonderful it was, because the old zig would have been furious
so even though we have our moments, in my real life right now she has been the most encouraging person to me. her constant acknowledgement of my growth, has given me a lot of incentive to keep going - just as the people here have done the same for me.
this morning just as i was waking (must have been the 2 cookies
) this thought came into my head. I was thinking about how much positive encouragement spurs people towards their better selves. an dit suddenly hit me - i spend so much time encouraging myself and people on this bb, but when is the last time i applied that to my h? why don't i encourage his goodness more actively?
food for thought..
we get so caught up in the negativity towards our spouses, we entirely forget to encourage their better sides
hope you have a lovely day vero
zig
I was thinking about how much positive encouragement spurs people towards their better selves. an dit suddenly hit me - i spend so much time encouraging myself and people on this bb, but when is the last time i applied that to my h? why don't i encourage his goodness more actively?
food for thought..
we get so caught up in the negativity towards our spouses, we entirely forget to encourage their better sides
Love this Zig... not just for our spouses but for everyone in our lives. i think that is my goal..to encourage the better selves of everyone i come into contact with today, to use every interaction that way. Thank you.
labug - when you said one has to choose NOT to be involved in the no talk situation, could you help me to see how i can do that here, please?
I know this was probably pages ago and I don't really have an answer other than we all have to figure it out on our own.
I chose to distance myself from those who continued to live under those rules. I can't change them and they will only change when that is no longer working for them. I love them and wish them well but I've chosen differently.
So when I realized that the system wasn't working for me, I changed. But it had already infected my M and I'm angry about that. I'm working on forgiving those who made the rules.
My S(19) often says, "It's our secrets that keep us sick."
From S(23) I got this: "I say what I see, I say what I feel and then I'm open."
They are the best guides a Mom could have.
I just caught up on your thread and you are figuring it out on your own.
And one day soon you will know the truth about yourself and you will love yourself.
zig, i am wondering if you already have your answer..
in that, the no talk rule is out of fear and pain...
and if we can encourage each other's better selves, perhaps others can feel safe and courageous enough to talk.
but always realizing that all we can control is ourselves... that we need to accept them where they are and that we are not trying to change, just encourage..
i really like this idea of encouraging better behavior. it gives so much to think about in how we can approach a situation in almost any R. i was actually just thinking how this even applies to my boss at work!
not change them but encourage better behavior through our own actions, words and understanding. It really encourages us to learn about a person and interact with compassion rather than judgement.
Thank you zig for sharing so much of yourself with us again.
you help us think deeper and more honestly. You encourage our better selves!
PICNIC TIME!!!!!!
((((( )))))
Hey, zig.
I was going to respond to your question about the inlaws, etc... instead, after reading the rest of your old thread, I just want to say that you did very well.
One thing to remember about living in the present. It is that the present is NOT the future.
How your H is, right now, is how your H is right now. In the same way that how YOU are, right now, is how you are... right now... and neither of you will "be" the same as you are, right now... in the future...
Eventually, the present... becomes the past... and the future... the "new present"... will simply be what it is... saying that we create our future presumes that we have control over it. We DO create our future, but we also have no control over it. It is simply an outcome of all things from the past.
Keep up the great work.
Regarding the double bind, for me, the most important thing to accept is, there is no problem...
What "happens" is, the initiator of the double bind "states a problem" and then imposes the "no-talk"...
The recipient then owns the problem... and therefore becomes the keeper of the double bind... the initiator need do nothing more...
Knowing how to get out of the double bind is the first step...
Knowing how to deny a double bind is the next step...
That is... Understand that, there is no problem...
There never IS a problem... not for one person and not for oneself...
You have received a lot of great support, including that from your repair guy...
Let it go... Before it even begins... let it go...
You talked about surrender in your last thread. It's often spoken of as a "flow with" behaviour with the analogy of a tree that tries to stand up to a wind, and breaks vs the grass that simply bends to the wind and does not break, only to stand tall again when the wind ebbs...
As labug points out above... you are working through these things on your own, and THAT is the most important take away you need to remember, right now...
That YOU... ARE CAPABLE...
KD -
I love the tree vs. grass in the wind analogy - thank-you
I was totally the grass the last couple of days - am trying to get up the energy to post - have just needed a break form the boards.
thanks for the further on the double bind -this version of yours provides much more clarity - if you would like to espouse more on my thread go ahead
I am ... capable, as you put it - and wonder whom i have to thank for that - could it be all the wonderful supportive people
have to go "gal" this evening - i'll try to post later
so NICE to hear your voice
zig
I just found out today that h filed the petition for D on tuesday and went off on wednesday to see ow.
he didn't bother to tell me.
I called the courthouse and found out for myself...
Time to change my tag line...
Hi Zig,
Just to let you know I'm in the same spot.
I know what you're going through.
I wish I was there to give you a hug and feel your arms around me too.
This is hard.
NLW
Sorry to read, zig. Sending good thoughts to you from nearly the other side of the globe.
Thanks NLW and sd - for the hugs
I'm sorry NLW - it is hard. Are you ok? I hope so
zig
Love and light to everyone on this thread. .... Things will get better.
Hi Zig,
I'm Ok - so much better at dealing with things than I used to be.
Hell, I keep thinking - how much more can I take and still keep going?
And the answer i give myself these days is quite clearly: Whatever comes my way.
But I'm still very sad.
You and your beautiful boy are in my thoughts.
I am sorry your H has filed. Continue to stay strong and keep living life as you are. It is easy to say "it's just a piece of paper" and reality for most is the attachment of emotions around the meaning of that piece of paper.
From your time on here you have made great strides to learn about yourself and overcome a lot of things that may have been holding you back. You are a strong woman, very capable of this and anything else life puts in front of you.
Contact your L and know that this is only the beginning of THIS process. You are still in charge of your life, just remember that there continues to be no way of predicting the future and what it may bring.
so sorry, zig. life continues to test our metal, huh? you're a strong, wise woman.
((((()))))
Thank you NLW and you are in my thoughts too
we must remember that there are other things out there that are good for us, if only we are open to them
I read yesterday - that one can reframe rejection and see it not as someone rejecting us and who we are, but rathe that it's the universe's protection for us so that we can be available for what we truly need in our lives
Isn't that a lovely way f looking at what we are faced with now?
(((((( ))))))
zig
thank you unbidden - for the blessing
and i agree with you - things will get better
aah KD - what can i say -
your words comforted me immensely today. and i believe every word of what you say
rather i should say that now i KNOW and feel every word of what you say
{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}
if you don't mind
hope your'e well? i'm out there ya know, if you ever feel like...same name same game
thanks ss - and thank you for stopping by. yes the testing goes on - but now it's a slightly different one - I can just focus on myself
(((((( )))))))
zig
So sorry to hear Zig.
No matter how much you think you're prepared or ready for it if/when it comes it still feel like a kick in the gut. You will rise above as you have so gracefully this next step. Keep your head up, know it is not the end of the road, just a detour. I'll be thinking about you.
Zig, your transformation here has just been so remarkable. I wish I had your depth and insight. I feel like we are blessed to have you blazing this trail ahead of us. Watching you move forward in life will surely give the rest of us some hope and guidance. Like we will be able to draft behind you on the path thereby making our paths a little easier to travel. You are such a light ...
thank you so much figure it out - such encouraging words and support - it means a lot to me
i hope that you are well also
zig
aah unbidden - what lovely words you wrote to me
they really warm my heart.
but my light didn't come on it's own - i absorbed it from the beautiful people in my life - my family and friends and everyone here. maybe i'm just reflecting it out now
i do feel calm and peaceful tonight - but ng has a lot to do with soothing me and i love her for it (thanks ng ((((((( ))))))) )
so i feel very fortunate that even though it has come to what i had not wanted, maybe i can take another step and be open to other things that i may find i want more.
I really feel that i can move on and always be able to say - I did my best, I did more than my best, I did more than I ever thought I was capable of
and that should be enough to start filling my own cup
so to all those who are reading this -
start filling your own cup before you try to fill someone else's
(i read that yesterday, and it is an image i wish to keep in my mind and pursue always)
i hope you are well unbidden and things are going well for you
((((( )))))
zig
I read yesterday - that one can reframe rejection and see it not as someone rejecting us and who we are, but rathe that it's the universe's protection for us so that we can be available for what we truly need in our lives
Isn't that a lovely way f looking at what we are faced with now?
Wow, that is amazing and does make perfect sense. Now we just need to open ourselves up to what it is that we really need. And have the patience to allow it to come in its due time. Thanks for posting that, zig!
Hope you had a great night.
Dear Zig,
Just read your words to me:
"I read yesterday - that one can reframe rejection and see it not as someone rejecting us and who we are, but rather that it's the universe's protection for us"
Given what I've learned about my h today (see my post if you have time), this is more than apt - it is a sanity-saving perspective for me.
Thank you, and keep on being your brilliant self!.
((((((((((zig))))))))
I have no words to express how sorry I am that it has come to this. I am baffled to say the least... Simply baffled. You have been a rock for me, a guiding light, a source of inspiration, growth and reflection.
The universe is speaking...you are protected and being protected from any further pain and hurt. Let your new path be illuminated now in love and compassion.
Oh zig, I wish I could be with you now.
I love you dearly.
Hi Zig,
I am sorry to hear the news. My H filed a couple of weeks ago. I know your pain. It's almost surreal. Even though we have been in limbo for a while, and even though we know this can happen, when they actually go ahead and file, it's painful. Plain and simple.
You are ok and you know you will be ok. You have the right attitude and this is just another step of this journey. An amazing journey filled with pain, growth and insight. But I think you will agree that this is happening for a reason and what we are learning from this experience is invaluable.
Take care of yourself. You are always helping others here, always so generous. You can see how many people you have touched just from all these posts.
You are not traveling on this journey alone...
(((zig)))
hi jks - thank you. i've become really bad at answering posts - so sorry.
maybe it's a good sign that i'm turning my focus away from DB'ing towards other things...
hope you are well, and I'm glad that you like that
zig
hi NLW - i did go and read your post - and i'm sorry that you had to realize that. I don't know why i didn't post back to you at the time. I guess i was going through my own stuff.
what i did want to tell you at the time was that - i had just had a similar realization about my h. it was completely different - but suddenly I saw a pattern, that while it had been barely tolerable during the m, had become SO exagerated after BD as to be completely intolerable to me
It did 2 things for me - completely toppled h off the pedestal, and also ironically made me completely accept him the way he was. I know, odd.
it was as if i finally gave up after 11 yrs of allowing it to bother me.
I also came to the realization that during this crisis, all the "negative" traits of the WAS are really much more exagerrated than they ever were, which makes it so much harder to deal with. and i'm like - ok - how much more peace will i feel if i just let all those go and just accept that this is who he is right now
I hope instead of torturing yourself about whom you chose, you can instead reframe it all so you have some much needed peace
(((((((((NLW)))))))))))
zig
(((((((((((busting)))))))))))
my dear #1 Picnic Sister. so much love to you from me
and why should you be baffled? there is no need. It is what it is, and i'm each day getting more ok with it. As my coach said - why try to stop a running train?
Besides I think for a while I would like to drive my own train
and mine is painted hot pink and always stops by a certain picnic blanket
Let your new path be illuminated now in love and compassion.What a beautiful blessing for me, sweet friend - I am going to put it up on my wall
I very much feel you with me, busting
(((((((((((( )))))))))))))
zig
Thank you keepgoing for your lovely words- they mean a lot to me, especially the part about not traveling alone on this journey
I think that here, we all gain a lot of solace from that and it has made our journey just that little bit easier to navigate because of all the love and support here from each of us to each other
I'm sorry that your h has filed - kg - and i send the same blessings to you - I hope you know how strong and wonderful you are and how capable of surpassing and overcoming all this pain.
I'm with you also, and you are not alone
((((( ))))))
zig
<3 dearest zig... i just know that you have everything you need to get through this. you are so, so strong. hugs to you. ((( )))
Zig!!!! How are you today? (tues)
thinking of you my friend ;-)
I don't really know where to start, but i am going to try. I apologise in advance for this extra lengthy post
After reading KG's posts yesterday, I saw that I was not alone in what I am going through, and that it was okay for me to admit to myself and here that things have NOT been going well for me. I went into some kind of major back sliding fog after H filed.
Instead of staying grounded and staying on the bb, I thought I could manage on my own and just do it myself. Now i realize that the main support here for DB'ing is about helping myself, not helping to save my marriage, and I think I left because I thought what's the point of being here, my marriage is not saved, h has filed for D and so that's it.
Everything is not dire - I have grown in some ways alot and had so many insights into who I am and what I am about, and also about how the real dynamics in my r with h really work. Instead of encouraging me, these insights have made me feel so overwhelmed, as I realize how much effort I still have to make to improve myself. In the face of the D which is happening so damn quickly I think I lost my focus and got completely overwhelmed by it all.
At first I thought things were going well. I decided to lean in and just allow. To show h that I was completely accepting of it all and he relaxed so much, that suddenly he was coming around, we were having good conversations, he came to a couple of my parties and our interactions were pretty good. He was relaxed enough to eat a few meals here, invited me to go trick or treating with them, even asked if I would like to join the next kiln firing with him.
I was not getting up my hopes or expectations at all - really keeping in mind that a part of his behavior came from needing to show the world that see - zig and i are really okay, see everybody she is doing fun things and letting me join in, she's not upset I left. I figured that it was more important how I felt, and and as long as I didn't have any expectations then I was fine.
Oddly enough he asked me several times if I was really okay with him being around, and I gave a neutral answer - If you want to be here, it's up to, I am fine if you are here and fine if you are not, it's the same for me.
Then last wednesday, I had an appointment with my IC and was describing the strange oddity that H seemed to want to be around more. and that I had noticed that he seemed to be wanting to be part of my life in this slightly odd way - he was enjoying my parties, loving our new puppy (i mean really loving the pup) etc. She pointed out to me - that right now his focus was not so strong on ow and so he is turning towards you. She said, form what you have described of your H he's a person who doesn't have much sense of self and gets his identity through his relationships. So if there's not so much contact with ow right now, he is turning to get a sense of identity through your life. I'm afraid that after some time when his focus switches back to her, you will be devastated again.
I came out of there feeling sick to my stomach and angry - that I had not seen it that way, and now, that I could see it for what it was, there was no way I was going to enable that. A chat with Cadet had him telling me that he was afraid I was going to be hoovered LOL. Sucked in and spit out. I was not having any of that!!
During this whole time, one of the curious things that h was doing was at every opportunity he brought up something from the spew at BD and apologized about it. I was a bit stern in my response - saying it wasn't that easy for me to believe that he suddenly had flipped his stand on it, but that i appreciated his apology. Idk, p/a on my part?
A big issue that came up after he filed was telling S11. His initial reaction was - why do we have to tell him? I haven't thought about that at all - in a panicky voice.
Also he didn't bring up anything about the D, not even telling me the date we were due in court until 3 days ago - almost 5 weeks after he filed, and considering that in KS it is 60 days until D, ihe has left it late. He called me 3 days ago, and finally told me and admitted that he hadn't given me really enough time to do anything.
He also is under a huge amount of pressure as he has a presentation at uni for his third year review on the 15th of this month. For any who don't know - if you don't pass that, you lose your job!! The D court date is the 27th. Until now he has not even begun to fill out the paperwork, let alone give it to me. He seems to have become aware of that only now.
In the initial conversation, I was calm and responded appropriately. I myself brought up the issue of telling S - and he still wanted to avoid it. We ended with agreeing that he needed time to think about it. He mentioned several times that this was happening too soon and he should look into pushing the date back. I took a risk and asked if he would consider a legal separation for now, if he wasn't planning to get married in the near future (quite a strong reaction of "I'm never getting married ever again"). He didn't really know what it was so I explained and said that many couples decide on that because then the spouse can keep the health insurance.
He did not want to consider it - the reason being - I want to own my new house on my own and if we are still married then we own it together. I said that's ok then, i just wanted to throw it out there. A bit later he sort of implied that a legal separation would not suit his other relationship.
But in the last couple of days - I have really messed up. I really pushed on the issue of S, and and about telling him and we have had some conversations which when i look back on, I groan with how much I HAVEN"T learned, and even what i thought i had learned and understood, i simply could not put into practice. I overwhelmed him, and myself.
But oddly I saw so much more clearly - where I still control, where I am still p/a and where i still - as NG pointed out to me - talk circles around him and don't let him find his own way.
In spite of that - his overriding concern through it all and the conversation he wants to have the most - even more than the one about our s, is "what is yours and my relationship going to be now?"
I have been very reticent and not given much at all. I told him that i didn't really want to be friends, that i needed less contact, that truthfully this last year has been terribly hard on me and I have done it for our family but now I need time on my own ...to heal? he added in and i said yes.
Since then he still keeps asking me what our r will be, and i say i' don't know it will just pan out, and that if he's trying to ask me something he will have to be very very specific as i don't really understand what he is asking.
On a side note - he has told no-one that he has filed and the D is imminent. he's implied that does anyone except you and me really need to know?
in yesterdays crazy conversations, i did lose it about him needing to acknowledge that s was affected - i know - old f'ing story - it's like my brain literally can NOT go in any other direction when it comes to S. He finally only did when i used reverse psychology and finally threw my hands up and said - ok fine from now on i am going to completely agree with you that s is completely hunky dory (his words) and i am just not going to worry about it. then i got accused of not listening to him and that he had indeed been saying that of course s is affected.
what i saw the most yesterday was that - when i am calm and friendly and pleasant, h holds his ground in ridiculous stances on issues - for e.g.. why do we need to tell s we are getting d'ed. but when i finally get fed up and lose it and get really frustrated - then suddenly he wakes up and wants to deal with it. I HATE that that's our dynamic and I hate that i get pulled into it, and I hate that i cannot change that.
but most of all I hate that I cannot tell which issues are really important to hold my ground over and which arent'. Was it important to hold my ground on telling s? would it have been better to trust that of course he would see it given time. did it really matter in the big picture? was my old ever=present impatience and wanting to make sure everything was done right still rearing it's ugly head?
I suspect that all of the above are true. and so i still feel horribly depressed and overwhelmed at how much there is to do, for me, in becoming a person that deserves to be in any relationship.
I could go on and on about h's messed up ness that triggers me off, and how he is messing up, but what is becoming more and more apparent to me is how messed up i am and how much i need to work on myself. My list of negative things about myself is growing longer and longer LOL and it is paralyzing me to the point where I am not even able to push myself to work. I have moments of feeling good, but they don't last very long. and of course, i don't need anyone to tell me that I have still way too much focus on h and what he's doing and where he is at. I cannot tell if this is a temporary reaction to his filing, all i know is that I am not strong right now.
In myself, I see many things - I see how I get discouraged and lose all hope and give up (too soon? or is it better I give up now?) , I see how when I feel that I am called to step up and be challenged, I actually freak and want to run away. I see how when others see really good qualities in me and see my strengths, I get overwhelmed and want to deny them and cannot follow through. But mostly I see that when I feel hurt and betrayed, I want to run away and hide and lick my wounds in isolation rather than step up fully to the challenge and say, yes, I can over come this. I also see so strongly that when someone doesn't do what i want, I am so angry. The new puppy is helping me to see that in spades - a constant reminder that it is a real challenge for me to stay still and non-reacitve if things aren't going my way. I also see how incredibly selfish I can be in very subtle ways, and that my generosity of heart is ultimately dependent on the recipients response. That i am the opposite completely of unconditional love, even though i can emulate it temporarily for rather long periods of time!
I know that these are all traits that I share with all other humans - everyone has elements of these as challenges in their lives. For me though, they have been life-long issues, that when they all come to the surface I feel helpless to address them and change them in myself - truly on a fundamental level. I realize that I have "practiced and strengthened" them for many more years than the time that i have taken to address them, but i cannot right now find the patience and self-compassion within myself so that i am not completely down on myself about where I am at.
In the face of what I lose because of who I have been and still struggle not to be, it feels imperative to "fix" all this asap - and even though i realize that that is NOT the point, my mind keeps going there. I still have trouble separating h's crisis from where I am at.
I think it's time for beginners mind - to start from scratch and to start by learning to focus on myself and my life - not on h's. he seems determined to forge ahead with the D, in spite of all these "signs" that he is confused, not sure etc. It is time for me to really wake up and see that and not stay under some illusion that maybe tomorrow he will change his mind.
But mostly it is time for me to come back here and seek the love, support and advice from the people who truly know what i am going through and can help me to focus on what is important for me and who can 2 x 4 me up the creek when i need it most.
(((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))
zig
Welcome back. It was awfully quiet around here...
So, let's work on that goal list, shall we?
I'll give you a ((( ))) not a 2 x 4.
Thank you SD and afa
SD - your reminder gave me a jolt
In the depths of my despair, (because I am recognizing that i have the personality that goes from trying very hard directly to despair when I don't achieve what I think I should) I had totally forgotten that there were things like Goals lists
How ironic is that!!
Thank you for the hug, afa - your compassion comes through even though your reply was brief. It helps me to be more kind to myself
I hope you are both doing well today
zig
Zig,
WOW, what a rough few weeks for you. Sounds like a crazy roller coaster ride of seemingly positive moves from your H (maybe because as you said it benefits him) to what I think is incredible insight and growth on your part.
You have very eloquently communicated what I know many of us on this board are feeling and thinking. It's all a crazy trip but you are not alone. I am glad you found your way back and look forward to seeing where this road takes all of us!
Thanks figure - for your words and for your encouragement. i really feel for you where you are at - I went to read a bit on your thread tonight. You are being so strong in how long you have been patient and I hope you give yourself lots of credit for that
zig
Welcome back. Your spot on the blanket has been waiting for you.
Grab a glass. Not letting you go again.
It is time for me to really wake up and see that and not stay under some illusion that maybe tomorrow he will change his mind.
Its all going to be about YOU now. If he changes his mind/if he doesn't, its not your concern right now. Enough of him for now.
But mostly it is time for me to come back here and seek the love, support and advice from the people who truly know what i am going through and can help me to focus on what is important for me and who can 2 x 4 me up the creek when i need it most.
Let's do this.
Love you zig.
((((((( )))))))
zig, I thought you would find your way back here.
My advice to me and it might be helpful for you.
My H doesn't want to be with me. He's made that very clear so I need to give him that. Make a gift of my absence in his life.
I want to see him but when I do it creates lots of emotion in me. Upsetting emotion because his wants and needs are different from mine right now. We are no longer a team working toward a common goal. We are tow people trying to extricate ourselves from this life we shared.
So for my well-being, it's best that we don't see each other, talk to each other, email each other. (I know you have S, and you need to communicate about that)
I can still have love for him from a distance (another emotion that will pass in time), I can still have compassion for him.
I need to do what's best for me, it took me a long time to get here but that's it.
And if your H seems muddled about what he wants, that's his problem. Don't allow him to muddle you, too.
Your problem to solve is what does zig want, what's best for zig.
(((zig))) glad you're back.
Thanks busting - I think I'm sort of crawling back on. I don't know if I've really got off or not. But I don't feel the elation of being there like i used to.
Something big has shifted in me. Last night I read through this thread - and I couldn't remember how I was back then. I sounded so cheerful and positive and motivated. I couldn't recognize myself. But it helped me to see that i was in that place and so that meant I could get back there again - soon, I hope
Thanks for holding on sweet friend. I love you for it
(((((((( ))))))))
zig
Zig, I so missed you. And you are being too hard on yourself. Just because you're not perfect (and who is), that doesn't mean your not fit for a relationship. Otherwise, truly no one would be so fit-- and what a lonely world. (((,))))))
oh Labug - (((((((( ))))))))
is that the longest post you ever wrote to me? I am quoting you on the entire thing. and thank you for passing on to me what you received. You are exactly right and even though the words you write are so so sad to read, they are true and they are what they are.
I am finally feeling truly humbled during this experience. and only now when i feel the real humility, can i hear the words of so many others that wrote about that on the board. and the humility comes from finally realizing that in so much as we "demand" that our WAS's transform , when we face our own incredible battle to make real deep long-lasting changes, we see what we are truly up against.
And it's an eye-opener to also see that until we have reached a certain stage in our own growth we do not have the ability to make the sort of boundaries you describe - that no, this is not good for me, no this is not healthy for me, yes i need space and time to heal.
and to find out what does zig want...
thank you for being here for me and welcoming me back. i'm glad i found my way back
zig
Zig,
Many many hugs. I don't have much to respond except that I'm glad you're back. And you can get yourself out of this rut and back to your normal happy self again.
Take care friend ;-)
Zig, I am new here and just read your thread. What an inspiration you are. Keep up the good work, you affect people here in a positive way.
Hi Zig,
Sorry it took me some time to come over and welcome you back. I am glad you decided to reach out again. What you are going through now is so hard and it's no fun trying to go at it alone. I thank you for your words, and bug's - I am also going through the same stage in my journey and I am desperately trying to find a way to get out of the rut.
I also read some of my older posts and I find it hard to believe I wrote them - seems like I was also at such a different space. The reality of it all just hit so hard. Yes, it is what it is and now we have to decide what we are going to to about this FOR US.
I send you a huge hug - you know you are not alone. I wish there was an easy or fast way out of this... we know there isn't. So I am just trying to put one foot in front of the other and look up. Today is a new day and a new opportunity for us to be the best version of ourselves we can.
You are an amazing, strong, beautiful and kind woman and I am grateful to share this journey with you and learn from you and others here every day.
((((zig))))
zig, you are an amazing person and you have grown so much through all of your adversities. God has plans for us and we are learning through these "tests". we are better people for them.
(((())))