Hi all,
Been lurking on this website reading and taking all that I can apply to my sitch. It helped me tremendously thanks to all the vets and posters here.
My story is very similar to most of the sitchs here. I'm sorry were all here and going through the same pain.
My wife dropped the ILYBNILWY bomb on May 2011. I was devastated and was really blindsided. I thought our marriage was just like any couple, the normal ups and downs. But I was wrong, my wife felt unloved and lonely. She got in touch with friend from childhood and the connection grew to EA.
I find out the EA this year and I thought the EA is over. In the beginning I also did the wrong things like begging, pursuing and gifts. Until I read DR and finally focused on my kids and myself, I GAL. W noticed my changes. But seemed like the addiction with OM is extremely high. I busted her lying again. The OM is from another state and I discover he's here and confirmed they were together last night for dinner. She assured me nothing happened.
I think this EA is already turned to PA. I confronted W this morning and I told her this will not work if she keeps talking to OM. I'm done, I told her she should move out to sort out her feelings.
I will post more later. Any comments/suggestions will be great.
newman
Give us more background on your relationship/marriage. What have been some of the problems? What is/was your role in those problems? What do you think that your W is getting from the A that she was not getting from the M? Do you know anything else about OM?
Denver thanks I'm meaning to read your sitch. I will give more info later. I'm suppose to meet w to talk further for dinner.
Married for 18 yrs w 3 kids (d17; s12; s3).
Anyway is it better to separate and work through her feelings? Or live in one roof and give her space? My deal breaker is if she continue with this EA that's where I draw the line. I will work on our marriage but she has to end EA.
Will post more later gotta go.
Newman
I'm still in moderation and not sure what I wrote before. I'm basically a wreck right now emotionally. Because I'm hurt again, not as bad as when I found out back in May. But this second lie about the EA is eating me again.
We've been married 18 years, we have 3 kids (D17; S12: S3). Our lives have been hectic, kids, work, money you know the usual reality of life. W dropped the bomb last year as I mentioned in my first post. She had complaints about our relationship but stupid me didn't pay attention. Her complaints was we became distant, didn't do dating like couple would do, I didn't have time for her, didn't talk to her, what else? That's all I remember for now. I really didn't think these were a big deal until the bomb. Oh and she told me I wasn't really a good father. I felt like she blamed me for everything to justify her EA.
I understand I'm not perfect, and my 180s were focusing on the kids. I'm more involved since the bomb. After reading on this forum I confirmed I was doing the right thing so now I keep working on to be a better dad.
Its hard because one of her complaints were I had a world of my own and did my own stuff during the marriage. So with GALing my fear is that this would confirm her impression of me. Need your thoughts on this.
I think my wife is getting the words of affirmation from the guy. It make sense, because it's all text and somehow she fell for it. She says she's in love and he's in love with her. And I finally realized her love language is affirmation and acts of service after reading 5LL.
About the OM, all I know is he's a childhood friend about 20 yrs ago and my W found him in FB and start talking with him. He's married and he told my W he's also having difficulties in his married.
Journaling--
I had dinner with W today even after what happened. She wanted to talk. I said ok so we had dinner. After I found out her meeting with the OM yesterday I told her family this morning.
Her sister talked with her and seemed to knock some sense out of her that D or not the EA has to stop. It seemed that her sister put her down to reality from her fantasyland. W said ok and promise will cut all contact with this OM while she work on us. She emailed him and cc me on it saying its done.
I'm giving her space and right now we decided to sleep in different rooms. I told her to get out of MB and after that I felt bad and told her we will switch off. I don't know how long we will make this sleeping arrangements. We will see family therapist. We are seeing IC now. W diagnosed with severe depression.
I originally kick her out of the house out of my anger in light of yesterday's EA but now looks like we will live in same roof.
Any thoughts on my sitch so far? How do I continue to GAL now that she seem she would work on us? I'll keep my 180s which is to daily spent time at least 30 mins each of my kids after work. I'm also exercising a lot. She told her sister that she sees the changes in me but fear of I'm only using these as tactics.
I feel really good about myself, not the needy, depressed person few months ago. Even my therapist validated that I'm doing the right thing. So props to this site and DR book.
Btw, I gave my wife to read 5LL, is this Ok? I didn't see anything there to see as tactics but I think the book will understand her feelings better.
She had complaints about our relationship but stupid me didn't pay attention. Her complaints was we became distant, didn't do dating like couple would do, I didn't have time for her, didn't talk to her, what else? That's all I remember for now. I really didn't think these were a big deal until the bomb. Oh and she told me I wasn't really a good father. I felt like she blamed me for everything to justify her EA.
Your story sounds very familiar. Very typical on this board. And yes, I'm sure that she was finding anything and everything to validate her EA. That's PART of it. The other part is that she probably did feel those things. She probably was not feeling fulfilled in those areas.
I understand I'm not perfect, and my 180s were focusing on the kids. I'm more involved since the bomb. After reading on this forum I confirmed I was doing the right thing so now I keep working on to be a better dad.
Its hard because one of her complaints were I had a world of my own and did my own stuff during the marriage. So with GALing my fear is that this would confirm her impression of me. Need your thoughts on this.
VERY similar to my own sitch. This can be VERY difficult to balance. Your 180 has to be to be a more involved H. Sharing your life as a H should. BUT, you will also have to use LRT (last resort technique) IF the EA does not end, or if it progresses to PA.
I think my wife is getting the words of affirmation from the guy. It make sense, because it's all text and somehow she fell for it. She says she's in love and he's in love with her. And I finally realized her love language is affirmation and acts of service after reading 5LL.
Well, as with many of us, we wish that we would have educated ourselves with material such as 5LL much earlier, but at least you have the knowledge now. Yes, I'm sure that she is receiving something from OM that was missing in her M to you. If she is willing to end the EA, then you HAVE to figure out how to provide her what she needs to feel loved and to be happy.
Also, to answer a question from your next post, I do think that it is okay that you gave her 5LL if she is receptive to it. It can be pursuing, but, like I said, if she is receptive to working on your M, then I think that it is okay. BUT, under no circumstances to you give her divorce busting materials, or refer her to this site. At least right now.
About the OM, all I know is he's a childhood friend about 20 yrs ago and my W found him in FB and start talking with him. He's married and he told my W he's also having difficulties in his married.
Good info to just sit on right now.
Journaling--
I had dinner with W today even after what happened. She wanted to talk. I said ok so we had dinner. After I found out her meeting with the OM yesterday I told her family this morning.
I did the same, but not with as much luck. My W became livid that I had done this. Although her family did try to talk to her, it was not met with the same reaction that your W had.
W said ok and promise will cut all contact with this OM while she work on us. She emailed him and cc me on it saying its done.
Proceed with EXTREME caution here. OM's are like a drug. I was told this over and over, but did not realize just how true it is. My W was 'done' with OM on at least 3 occasions during our 18 month S. Saying that she is 'done' is much different than actually dealing with unresolved feelings and actually being DONE. Also, don't expect the OM to give up so easily.
Just a word of caution.
I'm giving her space and right now we decided to sleep in different rooms. I told her to get out of MB and after that I felt bad and told her we will switch off. I don't know how long we will make this sleeping arrangements. We will see family therapist. We are seeing IC now. W diagnosed with severe depression.
I originally kick her out of the house out of my anger in light of yesterday's EA but now looks like we will live in same roof.
Any thoughts on my sitch so far? How do I continue to GAL now that she seem she would work on us? I'll keep my 180s which is to daily spent time at least 30 mins each of my kids after work. I'm also exercising a lot.
I would continue working on yourself, becoming a better father, enjoying personal interests, and becoming a better man. BUT, I would also really focus on your 180 of becoming a more involved H, and working on providing your W whatever it is that communicates in HER love language.
^^^ ALL assuming that the EA is over. This strategy changes, IMO, IF she resumes with the OM.
She told her sister that she sees the changes in me but fear of I'm only using these as tactics.
Trust me, getting her to TRUST that the changes are for real, and not just a tactic, is going to take LOTS of TIME.
Consistent actions + sufficient time = Change that your W can trust.
OK pardon me I'm still learning the forum. Not sure how you put those box quotes.
Yes you're right Denver can't assume OM will give up that easy. He's desperate and keep chasing my W. According to W she stopped for 2 months and then the first email from OM she's hooked again. This is really what ticked me off, all her lies. I even called this A-hole OM left him messages, text, email, and he's got no balls to call me back and face me.
Denver your W did this on at least 3 occasions? Where did you get the strength? Well I guess it's not easy to give up. I also told W the first time this happened it is definitely over. Now that this happened again, I'm still not ending it-don't know I'm so confuse. I also think that maybe this is why she keeps doing it is because she knows I won't end it.
Journaling,
So today I exercise, ran treadmill for 30mins. I really had to drag myself out of the bed because I'm really down from what happened yesterday. I'm emotionally drained.
Went to work and felt better even happy talking to co-workers. It was still hard to concentrate. Just my emotions are going berserk up and down. W text me and said hope we can work things out. That made me feel good and at the same time still very pissed at her.
Got home after work and spend time with S3, talk with D17, and checked homework of S12. After dinner I'm so down. I know I'm not suppose to show W, but I can't help it. But at least I got to spend time with kids which is my 180.
I wanted answers so I talked to W and ask her why did she lie to me again. How long ago was the first contact again of OM. I was grilling her looking for answers to get me some strength to fight for this marriage. Because yesterday I basically kicked her out and she's ready to look for her place but SIL texted me and ask for me to be patient with W and SIL assured me that W didn't have PA with OM. So from talking with W. W answers really didn't help me feel better so I left MB. The context of our convo was acutally that I told her OM is a bad idea, it's a lie, fantasy and she's potentially putting our family in a harm's way because in reality we don't know this OM.
Actually, that's when I thought of doing some background check on this OM. Does anyone in this forum ever attack the credibility of the OM and told their WAS here's the wrap sheet of your OM? I mean, at least in my sitch it's been 20 yrs ago since W seen this OM during their childhood that's a big timeframe so maybe he's got some F-ups. Maybe if there are F-ups will lift the fog?
Anyways, my mind is going 100 mph right now just thinking of all these things. I need help, some kick in the rear perhaps, and motivation to keep fighting for my marriage because right now I feel like giving up. Everything that is happening right now is really going against my beliefs, affair, breach of trust, deception...these are the foundations of marriage. Maybe tomorrow will be a better day.
Second day not sleeping together. I'm getting MB tonight.
newman.
Denver your W did this on at least 3 occasions? Where did you get the strength? Well I guess it's not easy to give up.
The EASY thing to do is GIVE UP.
Agreed to give up is the easy way out.
What a night. I slept though which is good but woke very early thinking things through.
Lots of thoughts this morning, part of it is why we're not sleeping together. What is it accomplishing, well mainly to help me contain my urge to ML to her. This was W biggest complaint while working through our R. My urge to feel her love through ML that I pressured her and this built more resentment. Towards the last two weeks I was able to control myself. This is my biggest fault but I think this is my language of love...this and quality time is what scored high for me in the book 5LL. So no ML for now=180 for me.
The next thought, is the cheese less tunnel. 4 months after the affair we lived in the same roof. I detached and GAL which made me better, but I know I still have LOTS of work to do. But living in the same roof is not working, W after OM contact her she's hooked. Part of her cloud is that she'll be happy if we get divorce. So my thing is why not give her a preview of what she's asking for. I will propose to her to act as if we are divorced.
We will act the custody of the kids 50/50, I will stay w my mom the days she stay with the kids and take the kids on my turn. This way she can sort through her feelings and find out for herself is this really what she wants? I think this is the last chance to save my marriage. If she's truly happy without me in the picture then I accept. If she wants her family the better.
This is no what I want but this is the life she thinks will make her happy.
What do you guys think? Any harm in his that I'm missing?
Newman
Bumping this up really need your input. Thanks
What about asking her to go to a Retrouvaille weekend? See
www.helpourmarriage.org.
If you need to separate for your sanity then do it. If it will help your Marriage, then do it. But don't do it because you want to teach her lesson. This may/not backfire.
Con't GAL and working on yourself. Stop trying to bust her. It will take her time to detach from OM and by you busting her (pressuring) she will struggle more.
unbidden I will look into Retrouvaille.
Vero, thanks for your input. Not trying to teach her a lesson, actually it is a lesson to both of us as we will see a preview of what a divorce life will feel like. This will be equally hard for me just like W. Because we will only have the kids half the time each.
I'm not sure where will we be in a few months, but we will do trial separation for 6 months with agreement that no OP will be involved while we work on us to be better. W agreed and so next week we start. She will stay with SIL, which is good because she can really support her during these next coming months.
I will continue to GAL and work on myself. I used to fear separation, I somewhat still do but not much because I will use this time to be strong and confident and that I will be ok with or without my W as part of my 180.
We will continue counseling during these six months. We are also looking for marriage counseling/coaching. Because so far, we're only doing IC and its really not helping us.
In a way this will help my sanity. I was out of line yesterday by grilling her regarding OM. So in this trial separation, at least I wont feel obsess about all of this.
I will act no expectations on all of this maybe in a few days I will believe that.
So next chapter start next week. How hard would this be I don't know. I know I'll be back here to journal.
Thanks to this website. I don't feel alone.
Btw, she's reading 5LL good sign.
Newman
This will be interesting. I hope that it works for you Newman. I hope that you keep journaling here.
Jornaling--
Only had 3 hours of sleep last night. All day I just took it easy and spent time with my family. Continued to interact with my kids, s3 is very attached to me. W looked depress at the same time content with the kids. We still feel like we're just roommates.
We talked to d17 last night about the trial separation. Broke my heart to see her sadness and frustrations but we encouraged her to express her feelings which she did.
I'm still torn about the separation next week. But I feel like it will help us. Because it will be different from what we tried last 4 months living in the same roof. So during this separation, I will continue to work on myself and GAL. I hope W find her way back to our marriage.
I need to keep reminding myself to detach. Right now I feel like just hugging W and giving her a kiss this is so tough, but I know that will be pursuing her. When I feel that I just walk away. I suppose I can try and see how'd she will react.
I hope I get enough sleep, in the morning my GAL will be to exercise.
Denver, any more thoughts behind why this is interesting?
I welcome all other thoughts and comments thanks all.
Newman
Journaling again--
I just can't sleep I figure I write what I'm feeling right now. I'm going through emotions again. The same pain is back the same way as when I found out the EA back in April. I'm frustrated, anxious, angry, sad, and very disappointed in what is transpiring in my life. I don't understand, I was getting stronger before.
I have to work back at it. I got to remind myself I can not control what W does. But my emotions are taking over right now. I guess I have to go through it and grieve so that I can focus back on my 180s and GAL.
This is worst, I never had to endure anything like this in my life. I'm digging in me to find the strength. I'm not a patient man and I think that's why I'm struggling because this requires patience.
I love my wife but she doesn't love me. She said she's in love wig OM but through what, 7months of emails. How could that be even possible? How could she only remember the bad things in our marriage. Who was there when she was sick, it was me. The daily life struggles, I'm there. With the kids, I'm there. Sure maybe there are days that I wasn't enough, but I thought I did a decent job.
I'm just venting...I feel like screaming but that would wake up my family and neighbors that wouldn't be good -- I write.
Newman
I had to get out of the house I'm just simply going insane. Every time I see W on her phone and laptop my brain just go nuts thinking she's communicating with OM.
I have to find myself again. I know I'm stronger than this, I just can't allow this to mess me up. I have to strike everything out and focus on kids and myself. I'm letting this weekend grieve. I hope tomorrow I can do my 180s and GAL again back to work. First I have to get some sleep at night.
We will try separation this week. Hope this really help me from these obsessions. Get clear thoughts on what directions my life would be. What do I really want? I feel confused right now.
Newman
I'm just posting this "let-go" from another poster so it's handy for me to read anytime:
---------------------------------------------
Letting Go
Author unknown
To "let go" does not mean to stop caring, it means I can't do it for someone else.
To "let go" is not to cut myself off, it's the realization I can't control another.
To "let go" is not to enable, but to allow learning from natural consequences.
To "let go" is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not in my hands.
...
To "let go" is not to try to change or blame another, it's to make the most of myself.
To "let go" is not to care for, but to care about.
To "let go" is not to fix, but to be supportive.
To "let go" is not to judge, but to allow another to be a human being.
To "let go" is not to be in the middle arranging the outcomes, but to allow others to affect their own destinies.
To "let go" is not to be protective, it's to permit another to face reality.
To "let go" is not to deny, but to accept.
To "let go" it not to nag, scold or argue, but instead to search out my own shortcomings, and correct them.
To "let go" is not to adjust everything to my desires but to take each day as it comes, and cherish myself in it.
To "let go" is not to criticize and regulate anybody but to try to become what I dream I can be.
To "let go" is not to regret the past, but to grow and live for the future.
To "let go" is to fear less, and love more.
Denver, any more thoughts behind why this is interesting?
I just mean that what you are doing is a bit different than how I see most situations here go. Not saying that it's a bad thing. But it will be interesting to see how it goes.
I'm not sure who the walk away spouse is here anymore either.
I like your post on 'letting go'. It is true.
During this 'trial separation', do let go. Be kind to your W and love her from a distance. Be the man that YOU want to be. Follow your path... and let your W follow her's. See if they cross again down the road.
You have an opportunity here Newman. An opportunity to grow as a human being. And, possibly, to create a whole new M... a better one.
Google the story of the 'chinese bamboo tree'.
Denver,
I'll check out that story during my lunch at work.
Is it possible I'm becoming a WAS? I am starting to have a lot of resentment towards W's actions but at the same time I still love her very much.
I am still scared of this trial separation. I'm aware that this could be what W really want for her life to be OR she could miss the life she has with me and our family. I mean, we tried for 4mos since the bomb on the EA, we were together and nothing changed the attachment to OM is really strong.
OM lives thousand of miles away so the romantic stage is very strong since all they have is the communication without any stressors of life, just the beautiful fantasy words behind the computer--but she doesnt get that. And I think at the same time when she's not communicating with OM she's getting the convenience of relationship when she gets home with me.
Actually, it's been over a year since the ILY...bomb. Since then she's expressed that she wants to work things with us BUT she doesn't know how to get it back--the feelings for me. I'm simply just a friend and the father to our kids nothing more, she even express she feels trapped and she doesn't want to commit. I think because her feelings are preoccupied with OM. I don't stand a chance against OM, all I have to offer her is the reality of life and unfortunately with everyday stress, although she noticed my good changes but seemed like they're not enough to go against her fantasy.
I don't want a divorce, I just want her to realize what she really wants in her life. And if to love her means to let her go then I will.
Denver, any more thoughts behind why this is interesting?
I just mean that what you are doing is a bit different than how I see most situations here go. Not saying that it's a bad thing. But it will be interesting to see how it goes.
I'm not sure who the walk away spouse is here anymore either.
I like your post on 'letting go'. It is true.
During this 'trial separation', do let go. Be kind to your W and love her from a distance. Be the man that YOU want to be. Follow your path... and let your W follow her's. See if they cross again down the road.
You have an opportunity here Newman. An opportunity to grow as a human being. And, possibly, to create a whole new M... a better one.
Google the story of the 'chinese bamboo tree'.
The paths don't have to cross at all. YOu guys life's outside the household can be almost completely different. As long as you respect and support each other then it really does not matter that much.
The problem how to we got into these sitches is respect was lost, and our WAS entitled themself to full scale "cake eating" and we paid for it. Your not going to intentially let that happen again are you?
Just do whatever it is you need to do.
I do think that it is possible for you to become the WAS. I'm not sure that I'd classify you as that at this point. I guess that I was surprised that YOU suggested the separation right after she supposedly ended things with OM.
That part about your W not knowing how to get those feelings for you back? VERY common problem around here. Even those of us who have been lucky enough to get our wives to reconsider, have struggled with that part.
How do you get someone to be IN LOVE with you again... especially when their mind is lost in the glitter of a new relationship??
Honestly, I don't think that you can. I tried and tried and tried for over a year. It finally took me giving up and being DONE for my W to realize what she was throwing away. I finally told her that I wanted a D, completed the paperwork, and asked her to sign the documents. We didn't talk for about a month and the paperwork just sat there. I went almost completely dark on my W. Somehow, someway, she snapped out of it and began to contact me... wondering if I would consider continuing to work on our M. She moved back into our house within a week... after 18 months of being physically separated... 18 months of pure hell. And things are finally good. Her feelings for me did come back.
Prior to that, all I heard was that she didn't know if those feelings would ever come back, she didn't know if she could forgive me, that OM was "a chance at happiness" that she was scared to give up.
Maybe this separation will be the answer for you. I don't know. What I do know is that you have to let her travel her own path here. And that MAY include OM being a part of it. If she has feelings for him, she is going to have to resolve that for herself. And you are going to have to let her. You cannot force it to happen and you can not expedite it happening. She has to go through it.
Keep posting. Hang in there. I know how hard and painful this is.
Denver
Denver,
Thanks your posts are really helping. I'm reading your sitch. I read your ILs went dark on you. I'm actually noticed that this past weekend, the replies have stopped. But I can't be surprise since blood is thicker than water.
I feel this tremendous itch to TM my W but I know I can't. It will be seen as pursuing. I just wanna tell her that I love her so much, and I can't believe that we are even avoiding accidental contact with each other when we pass each other in our hallway.
I can't believe two people can become such strangers after 18yrs of sharing our lives together. She was always my life, every decisions, every plan I always considered her opinions.
Nowadays, she cant even change in front of me--what's up with that?!
She's done a wonderful job detaching from me.
I'm just venting. This really blows!
I hope it truly does get easier.
I don't think this "trial" separation is going to work out the way you'd hoped. For one thing, it's your desparate attempt at finding a gimick that will do the trick to getting your W out of her EA and back into your arms again.
Here's what will happen. While you will be able to think of nothing else but how much you love your W (even now more than ever).....she, on the other hand, will decide that she really likes living apart and doesn't won't to get back together.
Sorry, but there's no quick fixes when you have a WAW in an EA. The power of her fantasy is too strong. When her sister shamed her into saying she'd give up the OM and try again with you....your W may meant it at the time. But as you discovered, the seductive power in the words of the OM and the thrill of her fantasy was stronger than the shame that you and your SIL tried to lay on her.
Don't look at the OM. Don't look at the A. Don't even look at your W. Look in the mirror. That's where you have to start the work. Your W doesn't feel any attraction for you...and really just doesn't feel anything at all. And, that part about not undressing in front of you? Yes, I know why she stopped. She doesn't want to act like she's your W, and that's her way of showing she's "faithful" to her A lover. It makes no difference that he's hundreds of miles away. When a W stops undressing in front of her H, that's a sure sign that she's already detached. Sad thing is, many H's don't even notice at first. Then one day it hits him.
Anyway, your M can be saved. It won't happen quickly (if you don't want another EA in the near future) and it won't be with you pursuing her or having long R talks (to fix things). So get ready to climb a big moutain. But no matter how high the moutain, you get to the top by taking one step at a time.
Take care.
I tend to agree with Sandi. She definitely knows what she is talking about and offers the perspective of a WAW.
She's also absolutely right about why your W won't change in front of you. Same thing happened to me very soon after the bomb. I didn't see my W change clothes until almost 19 months later.
My guess is that this separation is going to push your W farther into her EA. I also don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing if YOU handle it right. You have to let her go down this path. It's the only chance that you have.
Thanks sandi2 you speak the truth and it hurts. I will digest your post as there's a lot of kick in the rear there at the same time motivation and reminder that I should start with me first.
Denver, you're right I can't unrung the bell. I have no choice but to handle this right. I will try to put OM in the back burner so as the affair.
Journaling--
I sat in my car in the garage and tried to digest sandi's post and somehow got me to get a hold of myself. I had a reflection on how I've been handling on to things all day and somehow I felt better.
I went inside and W didn't greet me. I was hurt but I didn't make a big deal. I just reminded myself of one of the 180 I'm doing during the last month which is to make a positive environment between myself and W.
She cooked dinner and yes the avoiding contact is still there but I wanted to be cordial and said hi W. She responded and not only that, she also told me about her day was and, how busy she was all day. She also asked my day and I told her not bad.
I proceeded and played with s3 in the backyard, d17 was upbeat and also hanged out. W also followed, and had interactions with us. I asked If she had check s12 homework and if not if she could please check it.
Later on I went to check on s12, and had a little talked with him and gave him a playful hug. We had dinner and told my wife the dinner was good and thanked her. She had somewhat of a surprise look on her face but I didn't ask why we just continued to watch tv.
I didn't mention the trial separation, I just want to keep the positive feelings for the night. I'm bunking w s12 tonight and tomorrow and I get MB on wed and thurs.
Im a little worried that the communication with W is somewhat of a pursuit? I didn't think it was but maybe I have missed anything? Any thoughts?
I will bury OM and EA sitch for now...I just hope I can keep it burried for a while and just concentrate on working on me.
I just wish I can get enough sleep so that I can run in the park in the morning before work.
Sandi and Denver please keep posting. I'm reading your sitchs lots of helpful advice and eye opening info.
Denver so far from your sitch I'm taking in how you'd truly love and cared for your W unconditionally. And this can help me understand myself.
Sandi, through your sitch I'm understanding what my w is feeling and how I can truly find the way for me to own up to how I helped her to be the way she felt.
Im still reading, will post more later.
Newman
Newman, you mentioned detaching and GAL'ing, but then you say things like you told your W's family about your sitch and had them talk to her, and you've confronted her about the EA multiple times. Please understand, that is NOT detachment!! You're doing the opposite of detaching, you're pursuing and applying pressure to her!! Here are some of Michele's 180 tips:
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
You get the idea. Detachment is all about removing ALL pressure from your W. No R talks, no S talks, no D talks, no EA talks, no OM talks at all. Just act "as if" everything is OK even if it isn't. She says she wants to leave? Tell her you understand why she feels that way and maybe it's best for both of you if she does. The more pressure you apply the more you'll solidify her decision to leave. The more you go with the flow, the more free she will feel and less inclined she'll be to do something drastic. SHE has to sort through her thoughts and emotions, all YOU can do is work on yourself. Become confident, healthy, good-looking, kind, loving. Work out, get in shape. Get in touch with old friends. Go out. By mysterious. Be a person she can't live without. You may have to fake it at first, but eventually you'll believe it yourself and won't be faking it anymore.
Sandi and Denver please keep posting. I'm reading your sitchs lots of helpful advice and eye opening info.
Denver so far from your sitch I'm taking in how you'd truly love and cared for your W unconditionally. And this can help me understand myself.
Sandi, through your sitch I'm understanding what my w is feeling and how I can truly find the way for me to own up to how I helped her to be the way she felt.
Im still reading, will post more later.
Newman
The hardest thing that I have ever had to do Newman.
Detaching seems to be a difficult concept for some folks because they think detaching isn't possible unless they act cold, mad, withdrawn, or some other negative behavior. Let me be quick to tell you that that type of behavior will not succeed in drawing your W back into a R with you. Detaching emotionally means that you do not allow your emotion to react to whatever your W may do. She may say something nice to you........don't react. Don't make it more than what it is. She may say something not so nice....you apply the same technique. Don't react and don't make it more than what it is.
Your actions last night was fine. Better than just fine, it was really good! You did not react to her not immediately responding when you went in the house. Instead, you took the lead and spoke with the same courtesy that you would have toward a total stranger. You did not allow your hurt emotions to take the reigns and ruin the family time together. Not only did your W respond to you, but even your teenage D joined in with the family! Personally, I don't think that you behaved in a pursuing manner. Usually, a woman feels that the man is expecting something in return whenever he pursues her. Apparently, she did not feel you were doing that last night.
Women are attracted to men who will lay aside their hurt feelings and will stand tall, leading his family (even if for one night.....even if it's helping with a three year old.....)and show his kids how a daddy is suppose act when he's home from work.
Women are attracted to men who are confident. When the military takes new recruits, they train them to stand tall with their chin up, shoulders back, chest out, and stomach held in. It's not just to make them look good in a uniform, but to be the total picture of confidence. I can't stress enough just how important it is that your W sees that you are confident in being a man. You may feel far from it, right now, but remember than you won her heart once.....and you can do it again. However, this time around will probably be harder.
This time around, you can't chase her. She liked it once, but she doesn't like it now. Everything you try, is like putting pressure on her. For example.........if you tell her you love her. She knows that you want to hear her say it back to you. The only results from her will be anger. She can see through those "attempts" of trying to get her to say or do things. Believe me, it doesn't work.
Whenever you have one of your moments that you want to grab her and pour out your heart of love, just remember that it will be like setting a match to gasoline. Those type of wrong moves is what pushes women to go from talking about being unhappy one day.....to saying they want a divorce the next. The H is always so dumbfounded and wonders what just happened. It's called "pressure". The H has certain desires and expresses those desire in one form or another, but instead of getting the response he expected......she reacts to the pressure she felt.
So, I hope you will stick with us here, and learn what not to do. It's like Michelle said in one of her books, we may not always know what works......but we usually know what doesn't work. Therefore, don't misunderstand if you start to get more negative advice, than positive, b/c it's just your friends here in the DB community telling you what doesn't work.
Take care.
So I'm still taking in what I've been reading so far, lots of info to take in. So the more I realize what ive wronged in our R, the more I want to reach out to my W. I know not a good idea right now because that would turn her off because its being clingy. But is this normal?
Any advice to fight the urge to initiate contact?
Sandi, didn't see your post prior to me sending my post. I'll read when I get home. I gotta get back to work and thanks. I'll post later.
So I'm still taking in what I've been reading so far, lots of info to take in. So the more I realize what ive wronged in our R, the more I want to reach out to my W. I know not a good idea right now because that would turn her off because its being clingy. But is this normal?
Any advice to fight the urge to initiate contact?
Practice. LOL! I know that the urge is strong. Whenever I would have it, I would try to remind myself that I was actually doing myself, and my cause, harm by doing it. That helped.
I know that you want to reach out to her and let her know all that you are realizing right now. The time will come when you will get that opportunity. So not now. If and when that opportunity does come up, you need to listen to your W's complaints, and validate her feelings.
You communicate that you 'get it' and that you are changing with actions, not words. As 25MLC states often (paraphrasing):
Consistent action/changes + lots of time = Change that your W can trust.
And this will take lots of time. So sit back, try to have a PMA, GAL, and enjoy the ride as much as possible.
When I say 'enjoy', I mean, try not to be miserable and be consumed by this ALL of the time. Easier said than done. Trust me, I know.
I was often told that I had been given the gift of time. I never really got that until I had a chance to look back in hindsight. But what I think that it means is that you have been given a gift of time to become a better man, to think about what makes YOU happy, to pursue personal interests and hobbies, to become comfortable in your own skin.
I watched a movie the other night called 'The Changeup'. Not really about this stuff, but there is a scene that reminded me of this 'the gift of time' thing. In the movie, the married guy who has 3 kids, and a stressful job, is switched into the body and life of a single guy who has absolutely no responsibilities. In the particular scene that I am referencing, the married guy (now in the single guy's body) realizes that he might as well enjoy his time with no responsibility. He goes out and starts doing all of this fun stuff, and things that he has never done before. He goes go-carting, goes to the baseball batting cages, goes to a planetareum, goes to sea world, and a few other things. THIS is what I wished that I had done during my time away from W. Anyway, check out the movie. If nothing else, it is hilarious.
Denver
Newman,
Wow I just read your Sitch. As I am reading it was like I wrote all of your comments. My Sitch is almost identical. M 17 years and with little to no problems until 5 months ago. I to am riding this emotional roller coaster, where I cannot sleep or it wakes me up early. This hurts so bad and you really cannot put your finger on why. I am going to follow your posts, it does help having the support of everyone on here. DM
I think it must be very normal for the LBS to want the WAS more than ever when that love is in danger of being lost. It makes you want to hold on tighter (thinking that they can't escape), but actually it causes them to resist you more. That is why you can't afford to show that neediness at this time. She doesn't want to see you "needing" her. In fact, IMHO, (not Michelle's) I think the WAS needs to believe that the LBS is dumping them. B/c, as you just pointed out, you want what you think you've lost. If the WAS doesn't suffer some type of "loss" then they aren't going to change their direction....and certainly not for long term.
If my H had told me to hit the road b/c he was going to find a woman who was worth having him.....and then acted accordingly....it would have yanked a kink in my cheating tail and got some sense back into my fogged out brain. But he didn't, and I had no respect or love, and certainly no sexual attraction for him.
You see, anger, demands, pressure, neediness, begging, promises.....none of that is attractive before M...and sure isn't afterwards! You have to have dignity and self-confidence or the WAS will chew up your heart in spit it back in your face. This is not the girl you M. You have to stop expecting her to snap out of it and suddenly realize how badly she's hurting you. The awful truth is that's not going to happen. If she rejects this OM and stops all contact with him and chooses you and the M....it will be b/c she sees something there worth saving or else she doesn't want to lose something (which may vary with different people). But she won't see it by you pointing it out to her. Do you hear what I'm saying? That's why you can't have those R talks with her right now. It doesn't work. That's why MC doesn't work at this point. You can't talk your way back....you just have to "become" the man you should have been all this time. Counseling doesn't work for the person who doesn't want to be M. She has to have the desire to be willing to try. That usually takes quite a long time. But, it can happen. If it couldn't....I wouldn't waste time on this board.
Things will probably get worse before it gets better, so prepare for it. How? Just keep your focus on yourself and the kids. Make goals for improving yourself and work toward those goals a little every day.
Don't stop posting.
DM,
That's what compelled me about this site the similarities are almost creepy. But its comforting to know that we are getting advise from people that actually went through this same pain or going through the same pain.
Yes absolutely take in all you can get from all the posters here. I've read through a lot and take in a lot of info as well. Stay in touch I'll read your sitch.
Newman
Another Stander,
Thanks for posting. I missed your post it was hard to see and type these things in a phone lol. Yes I know a lot of times I contradict my actions. I'm still learning this counter intuitive principles. I'm really trying to stamp this in my head, I mean it is stamped but my actions are still not in sync with it.
Yes she wanted to leave but I'm the one that suggested it out of anger from the last blow-up on the EA with the same OM.
I'll read your items to remind me and will practice what it actually say.
Please keep me in check. I'll keep journaling so you guys can guide me.
Newman
Journaling~~
Another positive night. I got home tonight and W is running late from work. So I took the kids and bought dinner. Took all 3 of them with me. So whats the big deal? Well, the old me wouldn't have done this, the old me would've waited for the W to get home and make her buy dinner, yes sad to say but that was me. By the time I got home buying food W was home. No biggie for her and I realized she's seeing it and she just don't want to admit it--like she said before "a little too late". If she doesn't see it that still fine since my kids and I had a great time driving. We all ate dinner and that's that, WE WERE ALL HUNGRY
A couple of things though in the middle of getting dinner and post dinner. I texted W to see if she will eat before she gets home, she didn't reply right away so I called for dinner. But while I was phoning the order she text me, call my cell, and called the house phone. D17 answered since I was on the phone ordering food. I can hear in the background the people from her work it's almost like telling me that look I'm really at work don't you hear my coworkers, I'm not with OM? I don't know what to make of this but atleast she's making me aware that she's really at work? Maybe she's trying to win my trust again?
The second thing is that I brought up the S talk. We were suppose to start tomorrow, and she's suppose to leave. I saw in her facial expressions that she didn't really want to do it but I didn't want to say I take it back. I simply said "what do you feel about tomorrow's arrangement, do we proceed with TS?" And she just said "did you want me to come home or do I go straight to SIL?" I replied and said "well I'm thinking maybe we should put it off until we see counseling"? So we're basically answering questions with questions. So she also said "yes, I think TS is good idea but I think we need to do it correctly with counseling help." I left it at that so for now our TS is on hold.
So now we're back in the same spot, living in the same roof, but I did tell her that I don't know how would I react if this EA happen again, and that I won't be a part of this love triangle. And she assured me it won't happen again that this is a wake up call for her.
We talked briefly about our R, and I basically said so now we'll try again? Bad move Newman, I knew the answer to that, and her answer is "well it's not that I want to but, I don't hate you but I don't know if my feelings would return." And I got sucked in more, and I said "well the EA, I'm not owning up to, that was your decision. But what I'm owning up to is creating your feelings the way you felt" and she said she's really sorry for what happened." It was getting in deeper getting emotional and then that's when I decided to shut up, and I said ok and left the MB.
So it goes--
Thanks again everyone! You have no idea how this is really helping me cope with this painful part of my life. But I feel as even if our R don't work out, I will be a better man by then. I'm learning so much about myself. I normally don't spill my guts to anyone not even my friends and here I am spilling everything to save my marriage. Much respect to the WAW and LBS here in DB!
Newman
Sandi like always these are great eye opener..I will re-read this over until I can until my actions get in sync.
Just have a q-- during the last 4 mos, I have mentioned to W aboutme reading a lot on the net and books. And even offered her some of the advice that she should find happiness within herself etc. At one point, I think sarcastically she mentioned what about an affair do you have a book on ending an affair? And now I know anything from me she would see as no genuine maybe I can guide my SIL on a good book to read for her, any suggestions? Maybe coming from SIL will not be too bad?
Also, the first time she cut contact with OM, she was really depressed I think kind of like being a drug addict (I read somewhere) and I think she went through withdrawals from OM. I think she is having withdrawals now any suggestions on this or just let her be?
Thanks,
Newman
Hey Sandi,
I'm reading your sitch. So far you mentioned a lot of the stuff my W has also mentioned. The difference is you found a way and my w is finding her way but she doesn't know how. You can truly help me understand my W better. So feel free when you can to shine a light finding her.
Newman
In my experience, trial separations after an affair almost always lead to a deepening of the affair, at least initially. You are reading the 5LL book, implying that you not meeting your wife's needs contributed to problems in your relationship. If you are separated and not meeting any of those needs, you must realize that she will try to rely on her affair partner to meet her emotional needs.
Also, you have already done an exposure of your wife. Since you have gone this far and contacted the OM, I would suggest you consider contacting his wife. Your wife told you that he claimed he was having marital issues. I would bet this would be news to his wife. Exposure doesnt always work in your favor, but when it does its the scorned wife that is most effective at destroying an affair. I would suggest if you are going to separate, you take this step to destroy her affair first.
Just have a q-- during the last 4 mos, I have mentioned to W aboutme reading a lot on the net and books. And even offered her some of the advice that she should find happiness within herself etc. At one point, I think sarcastically she mentioned what about an affair do you have a book on ending an affair? And now I know anything from me she would see as no genuine maybe I can guide my SIL on a good book to read for her, any suggestions? Maybe coming from SIL will not be too bad?
The trap door that will catch you every time is this: you just want to try and "reason" with her. That's how men get caught in a R talk, b/c they can't give up trying to reach her sensibility. When that doesn't work, then the H wants somebody else to talk his W into staying in the M. Again, this is all very common from what we read from the posters here on the board.
Here's my advice about your SIL. Don't make any suggestions to her about what to say to your W. I know you feel desperate to get the right information into the hands of your W, but you can't be behind the curtains (so to speak) giving clues or instructions to your SIL as to what to say.
Even though your W is still in an A fog, she still knows you (and her sister) very well. She'll see through it and she'll reject it as soon as she figures out you were behind it. I don't think your W will stay with her if your SIS tries to get her to read, talk, hear, or watch anything about M. Your W will just want her sister to "listen".....not advise.
A lot depends upon timing. Nobody could reach me in the beginning of my EA. Everything my H did to make a "point" for the M.....turned my stomach. He could pass by a picture of our grandchild and make a remark about how precious she was....and I'd feel like it was his way of getting a message about the importance of family & marriage to me. Of course, I resented the heck out of it! It actually sickened me whenever he pulled a stunt like that. I knew him! I knew what he was doing! That's why suggesting books or videos, etc., is not accepted warmly by the WAW. Even if she seems to be considering ending the A, you cannot afford to try to get her to read what "you" think would be good for her. She's not ready to hear what you want.
I want to encourage you to not tell your W what all you've read. Don't tell her how hard you are working to change yourself. I know you want to do that very badly, but it is the wrong thing to do. Just remember that it will pull you back to square one every time you tell her any thing like that. How will she know what you've read? That's just it, she doesn't have to know. What you really want her to understand is that you are working hard to fix what's broken. But there is only one way that works. You have to keep your mouth closed and just "become" what you learn. You don't try to reason with her through whatever information you've received. It's hard, but it's the only way.
The WAW has a awful amount of resentment toward the LBH. Have your read Michele's article on the WAW Syndrome? Find it here on the home page and read it.
There are at least four major things your W will have to deal with, and will continue, for quite some time. Of course, one of those major things is her addiction for the EA with OM. You are very correct when you said she went through withdrawals. That is probably why they rekindled the A (if it really ever stopped)b/c it is highly addictive. Depression seems to always follow ending an A.
Also, the first time she cut contact with OM, she was really depressed I think kind of like being a drug addict (I read somewhere) and I think she went through withdrawals from OM. I think she is having withdrawals now any suggestions on this or just let her be?
IMHO, when a woman ends an A (even if she makes the decision b/c she discovers OM is a cad), she is suddenly left feeling very empty. That's a horrible experience for anyone, no matter if they are to blame or not. She doesn't have any loving feelings for her H. She just feels a huge void. It's that same void that can turn a lot of people toward another person. She will be very vulnerable. Not only will she be depressed about her life, but she feels she gave up her chance for happiness when she gave up the OM. (That's part of the fantasy.) But then, the withdrawal comes. If I had not had people on this board to coach me and tell me what was happening and what to expect, I don't know if I would have made it through my ordeal. I had never heard about the PEA chemical changes the brain experienced when having an A. If you haven't read about it, search it out on the Internet. Very interesting stuff.
She will go through the initial withdrawal and then hard withdrawal symptoms. If she has any contact with the OM it can pull her back to square one in withdrawing. That's why no contact by any means is so important.
So, she'll experience addiction withdrawal and depression. That in itself would be enough for any MR to withstand, but there's the issue she will have with resentment. Now remember, I'm just talking about her feelings. You will have plenty of your own issues, also.
Whenever I read a story from a LBH who says his WAW
Sorry, hit the submit button too soon.
Whenever I hear from a LBH that his WAW has ended her A and everything seems to be good after just three or four weeks.....I have a lot of doubts. Again, this is JMHO, but I don't think most women can go from an unhappy MR into an EA/PA and then jump right back into being that loving wife again in just a few weeks. I believe she has to work through her own issues, plus her and the H working on the M together before she can be the W she used to be.
She has a ton of resentment toward her H. Now, I referred to "timing" in my last post.....that is when they need to open up and talk (maybe with a MC helping them) so that the problems can be resolved and the resentments healed. Otherwise, it's going to take a long time.....and hard work, for her to be able to overcome it.
The fourth major issue is forgiveness. Yes, of course you have to be able to forgive her for the A, but so does she. I'm talking about her forgiving herself. It's the hardest thing I've ever experienced! One thing that will prevent her from forgiving herself is hanging onto resentments from the past. Not that one thing justifies the other in these cases, it's just the way it works.
It's been five years since I ended my EA. It seems a life time ago. The hardest part for me? Forgiving myself. Even now, as I type this, the tears are stinging my eyes. Sometimes the linea between guilt...forgiving...and regretting runs together and I'm not sure which is which. You will never know how much I regret what I did to myself, my M, my H, and my family! I have to live with that for the rest of my life. My H may have failed at a lot of things, but I alone carry the label of "cheater" in my M.
Anyway, that will be four of the main things your W will face in herself. It took me time to reach the place I was willing "to be willing" to put forth any effort. It took all my energy just to end the EA and stay in my house with my H. I didn't have any desire to stay, I was just doing "the right thing". Doing the right thing doesn't automatically give you the fuel you need to operate. The depression just about did me in! I asked my H to go with me to MC and he would not do it. He would not talk to anyone, but yet he wanted me to put forth 100% effort. (His words, exactly.) He had no idea what that did to me. More resentment! More depression!
So, without any professional help, (and I didn't feel like my H was willing to help b/c he said he had done nothing wrong), it took me quite a while to get to the place of putting forth any actual "effort" other than just being there. If your W asks you to go with her to therapy or MC, then please agree to do whatever it takes to work through it. Don't let stubbornness or pride get in the way of healing the M.
Be very, very patient at waiting for her to come around. You have your hell to get through, and she has her own to get through. Then there's that part you have to go through together. If she sees you being there to listen to her, and looking intently into her eyes when she's talking to you, that will mean so much! I can't tell you how far that one act will carry you. One of the first things that a H does to hurt the MR is when his W talks and he tunes her out. That is very insulting and painful to her. So, listen carefully to her, no matter how uninteresting it may be to you. DO NOT TRY TO TELL HER HOW TO FIX IT. Unless she asks you what to do, don't tell her. Most women just need to share their feelings. The man (Mr. Fixer) thinks he's suppose to solve her problems, but that just leaves her feeling frustrated. If she wants his help, she'll ask him.
Don't stop working on your improvements! Sure she needs to make changes, too, but if you get into finger pointing, the M will be back into serious danger zones before it has a chance to heal. She has to see that you weren't making changes just to get her back, and then stopped. She wants you to stay like that for now on. If you slack up, you'll be back here again. So be ready to be the one who steps up every day and shows her that you are the leader in the R.
Be sensitive to her feelings. You can tell if your W is down, right? Can you tell if she's had a bad day without her telling you? Okay, can you tell when she's lonely from when she wants to be alone? Do you know when you should play and kid around with her from when you know not to go there with her? Can you tell when she just wants to be held in your arms and be assured everything's going to be alright, but she doesn't want to have sex? If you don't know, then you are probably like the majority of the male population! But, you can always try to learn.
Just as you can't afford to apply any pressure now, you can't afford to do it months from now. Can you handle it? Can you be the man and have the attitude that "Honey, I love you and if you get too tired to walk, I'll carry you, but we are going to make it through this journey." That's the attitude you have to take, b/c if you start letting your male ego get in the way of the healing process....you'll have a bad time of it. You may find yourself feeling that you're the only one doing the "work" in the R. But if she's depressed and experiencing all that stuff I just talked about, then she won't have the drive like you do. It's one thing to want something and go after it with gusto, but quite another when you're just trying to do the right thing and your hearts not all the way in right now. (Most LBH's don't want to hear that, but I'm telling you the truth!)
Right now, you have the energy and desire to start pumping out whatever it takes to get her to agree to stay M. But it's that day-to-day grit that gets old and tries the patients of your soul. That's when you have to remind yourself that love is driving you....not ego. Again, I ask you, are you the man?
Your M can not only survive this, but it can be happy again. She can desire you again, and she can have the "want-to" back in the R again.
Newman, please read sandi's post, and then read it again if you have to. I think she's given you some great advice. We're all here to support you!
Sandi, your last two posts were golden! I needed to read what you posted today...I really did. Been feeling like I'm DBing in vain lately. THANK YOU!
Fade thanks for your input definitely take it to consideration. Yes the separation is on hold for now. I'm glad we did as seem like the consensus point out to not a good idea for now.
I just found out not everyone knows from her family just SIL and her husband. But yes that also crossed my mind about telling OM's wife, I think if I would've have the contact number of OMs W that time I blew a gasket I probably would've called her.
RoRo, I agree will re-read actually I don't think I will get tired of reading Sandi's post it really hits home for me. Thanks for your support.
Sandi, bless your heart and your family. Your H is a lucky man to have you. You have no idea how much help you have been giving me and my family regardless of what happen thanks! I dont know you and you don't know me an yet you are helping not only me but others who read your post. Keep it up, you're making a big difference.
I will re-read your post, I'm on my cell right now at work and it's hard to type LOL. When I get home I'll post.
Newman
Just be aware that this site is primarily about Divorce Busting and that advice runs counter to Divorce Busting.
Journaling--
I had dinner with W today even after what happened. She wanted to talk. I said ok so we had dinner. After I found out her meeting with the OM yesterday I told her family this morning.
Her sister talked with her and seemed to knock some sense out of her that D or not the EA has to stop. It seemed that her sister put her down to reality from her fantasyland. W said ok and promise will cut all contact with this OM while she work on us. She emailed him and cc me on it saying its done.
I'm giving her space and right now we decided to sleep in different rooms. I told her to get out of MB and after that I felt bad and told her we will switch off. I don't know how long we will make this sleeping arrangements. We will see family therapist. We are seeing IC now. W diagnosed with severe depression.
I originally kick her out of the house out of my anger in light of yesterday's EA but now looks like we will live in same roof.
what is your goal? Is it to punish your wife, or to save your marriage? Have you read the Divorce Busting book or the Divorce Remedy books?
Please read them asap...
Any thoughts on my sitch so far? How do I continue to GAL now that she seem she would work on us? I'll keep my 180s which is to daily spent time at least 30 mins each of my kids after work. I'm also exercising a lot. She told her sister that she sees the changes in me but fear of I'm only using these as tactics.
I feel really good about myself, not the needy, depressed person few months ago. Even my therapist validated that I'm doing the right thing. So props to this site and DR book.
Btw, I gave my wife to read 5LL, is this Ok? I didn't see anything there to see as tactics but I think the book will understand her feelings better.
the books are usually for YOU to change YOU...
and you say you just realized what her love languages are, after 18 years of marriage.
What is it you are working on as a husband, so she'll see you as the better choice?
Look at trying to go to Retrouvaille weekend with your wife. See
www.helpourmarriage.org.
Journaling~~
Another positive night. I got home tonight and W is running late from work. So I took the kids and bought dinner. Took all 3 of them with me. So whats the big deal? Well, the old me wouldn't have done this, the old me would've waited for the W to get home and make her buy dinner, yes sad to say but that was me. By the time I got home buying food W was home. No biggie for her and I realized she's seeing it and she just don't want to admit it--like she said before "a little too late". If she doesn't see it that still fine since my kids and I had a great time driving. We all ate dinner and that's that, WE WERE ALL HUNGRY
glad you see that it's not a big deal but it IS a 180 for you, so good for you. Just understand that ONE gesture that most people think is normal,
isn't going to turn around 18 years of behavior that doesn't match. Give your 180s time
b/c you can counter her negatives with positives. Make sure you don't fuel her reasons for leaving.A couple of things though in the middle of getting dinner and post dinner. I texted W to see if she will eat before she gets home, she didn't reply right away so I called for dinner. But while I was phoning the order she text me, call my cell, and called the house phone. D17 answered since I was on the phone ordering food. I can hear in the background the people from her work it's almost like telling me that look I'm really at work don't you hear my coworkers, I'm not with OM? I don't know what to make of this but atleast she's making me aware that she's really at work?
Maybe she's trying to win my trust again?
Read nothing into this^^^...if it was meant for anyone, it may have been meant for your d17.The second thing is that
I brought up the S talk.
why??? We were suppose to start tomorrow,
and she's suppose to leave.
if she shows doubt or a wish to delay, why would you push for her to leave?
-- I replied and said "well I'm thinking maybe we should put it off until we see counseling"? So we're basically answering questions with questions. So she also said "yes, I think TS is good idea but I think we need to do it correctly with counseling help." I left it at that so for now our TS is on hold.
So now we're back in the same spot, living in the same roof,
but I did tell her that I don't know how would I react if this EA happen again, and that I won't be a part of this love triangle. And she assured me it won't happen again that this is a wake up call for her.
WHY are you bringing this up now? What was the goal?
We talked briefly about our R, and I basically said so now we'll try again? Bad move Newman, I knew the answer to that, and her answer is "well it's not that I want to but, I don't hate you but I don't know if my feelings would return." And I got sucked in more, and I said "well the EA, I'm not owning up to, that was your decision. But what I'm owning up to is creating your feelings the way you felt" and she said she's really sorry for what happened." It was getting in deeper getting emotional and then that's when I decided to shut up, and I said ok and left the MB.
So it goes--
So, what will YOU do DIFFERENTLY,
to show her that marriage to you can be different and better?
B/c THAT IS THE KEY....Thanks again everyone! You have no idea how this is really helping me cope with this painful part of my life. But I feel as even if our R don't work out, I will be a better man by then. I'm learning so much about myself. I normally don't spill my guts to anyone not even my friends and here I am spilling everything to save my marriage. Much respect to the WAW and LBS here in DB!
Newman
your wife will not come back to the marriage and really do the work
unless she believes that marriage to you can be better/different than before.
YOU have to show her that. In concrete ways, not more of the same.
make sense?
I urge you to get the tools for rebuilding the marriage by doing something like
Retrovaille. You glossed over it but frankly, if you have been spending this much time "working on things" with no results, then clearly
you need some tools you both lack. She needs you to take the lead, imo.
Retrovaille is a weekend retreat (w/a follow up program) for couples in crisis.
It's very very good. I highly recommend it.
do NOT contact OMs' wife. OMG...have you read the DB and DR books?
Did you read about that part? B/C it goes against it A LOT and for good reason. MANY good reasons I won't go into if this isn't really a possibility.
But if you are seriously thinking that you'll contact some woman you don't know, about an online affair and feelings your w has for someone else's h, WHILE your w has stopped contact, it'll hurt her deeply. And let me point out ONE possible outcome.
It may end their marriage, which will free her h up for your wife...
Plus, I think You're acting out of anger and a desire to control your w and the outcome. That sounds like being someone you do not want to be.
Just stick with the work you need to do on YOU.
And read Sandi's post again, please.
Your wife is depressed and I hope she's getting treatment. BTW, did you know that 90% of women on anti-depressants have h's who are considered "critical".
Her depression is HER problem, true. But don't keep trying to maneuver this. Just work on you and give her something to miss.
Retrovaille is something WELL worth looking into and I think she might be willing to go.
Even if it's "just for the sake of the kids", get her there. It won't hurt...
Fade thanks for your input definitely take it to consideration. Yes the separation is on hold for now. I'm glad we did as seem like the consensus point out to not a good idea for now.
I just found out not everyone knows from her family just SIL and her husband. But yes that also crossed my mind about telling OM's wife, I think if I would've have the contact number of OMs W that time I blew a gasket I probably would've called her.
DEAR LORD... HOW DID I MISS THIS POST??
DO NOT do this Newman. It has a much better chance of completely blowing up in your face than working. If the EA continues, the OM will be exposed eventually anyway.
What you are doing... much of it... is CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR. This may be why your W is wanting to pull away from you. You should look into this and the role that it has played in your M.
Fade thanks for your input definitely take it to consideration. Yes the separation is on hold for now. I'm glad we did as seem like the consensus point out to not a good idea for now.
I just found out not everyone knows from her family just SIL and her husband. But yes that also crossed my mind about telling OM's wife, I think if I would've have the contact number of OMs W that time I blew a gasket I probably would've called her.
DEAR LORD... HOW DID I MISS THIS POST??
DO NOT do this Newman. It has a much better chance of completely blowing up in your face than working. If the EA continues, the OM will be exposed eventually anyway.
What you are doing... much of it... is CONTROLLING BEHAVIOR. This may be why your W is wanting to pull away from you. You should look into this and the role that it has played in your M.
Ok I'm trying this box quote thingy.
Denver, MLC, and Adinva,
I'm not planning on contacting the OM's wife now, that was when everything blew up last week when it crossed my mind. I should've finished my thoughts when I replied about this. But what I thought is that now I'm in the better place here in DB forum, next time anything happen like that I'd definitely post here first. No more irrational moves--I hope.
Newman
Just have a q-- during the last 4 mos, I have mentioned to W aboutme reading a lot on the net and books. And even offered her some of the advice that she should find happiness within herself etc. At one point, I think sarcastically she mentioned what about an affair do you have a book on ending an affair? And now I know anything from me she would see as no genuine maybe I can guide my SIL on a good book to read for her, any suggestions? Maybe coming from SIL will not be too bad?
The trap door that will catch you every time is this: you just want to try and "reason" with her. That's how men get caught in a R talk, b/c they can't give up trying to reach her sensibility. When that doesn't work, then the H wants somebody else to talk his W into staying in the M. Again, this is all very common from what we read from the posters here on the board.
Here's my advice about your SIL. Don't make any suggestions to her about what to say to your W. I know you feel desperate to get the right information into the hands of your W, but you can't be behind the curtains (so to speak) giving clues or instructions to your SIL as to what to say.
Ok it makes sense, just wanted to see your thoughts if someone other than the H try to help to break the A.would be helpful.Even though your W is still in an A fog, she still knows you (and her sister) very well. She'll see through it and she'll reject it as soon as she figures out you were behind it. I don't think your W will stay with her if your SIS tries to get her to read, talk, hear, or watch anything about M. Your W will just want her sister to "listen".....not advise.
A lot depends upon timing. Nobody could reach me in the beginning of my EA. Everything my H did to make a "point" for the M.....turned my stomach. He could pass by a picture of our grandchild and make a remark about how precious she was....and I'd feel like it was his way of getting a message about the importance of family & marriage to me. Of course, I resented the heck out of it! It actually sickened me whenever he pulled a stunt like that. I knew him! I knew what he was doing! That's why suggesting books or videos, etc., is not accepted warmly by the WAW. Even if she seems to be considering ending the A, you cannot afford to try to get her to read what "you" think would be good for her.
Yeah I pulled a stunt like your H did early this year. I found pictures and cards that I gave her while we were dating and I reminded her that she used to love me and whatnot and how happy we look at the picture. Her response "that was a long time ago"..I was like WTH. [b][/b]
I want to encourage you to not tell your W what all you've read. Don't tell her how hard you are working to change yourself. I know you want to do that very badly, but it is the wrong thing to do. Just remember that it will pull you back to square one every time you tell her any thing like that. How will she know what you've read? That's just it, she doesn't have to know. What you really want her to understand is that you are working hard to fix what's broken. But there is only one way that works. You have to keep your mouth closed and just "become" what you learn. You don't try to reason with her through whatever information you've received. It's hard, but it's the only way.
Yep I'm giving up on that. Even reading 5LL that I gave her, in the beginning she's all in to it but now, I don't even know if she's still reading it. Also, she mentioned quality of her OM, that when they talked he was sincere and that the word of affirmations that OM said was not just to "Please" her. So in other words my words to her are just to please her--I just cant win!!The WAW has a awful amount of resentment toward the LBH. Have your read Michele's article on the WAW Syndrome? Find it here on the home page and read it.
I read it once, I'll re-read it.There are at least four major things your W will have to deal with, and will continue, for quite some time. Of course, one of those major things is her addiction for the EA with OM. You are very correct when you said she went through withdrawals. That is probably why they rekindled the A (if it really ever stopped)b/c it is highly addictive. Depression seems to always follow ending an A.
Also, the first time she cut contact with OM, she was really depressed I think kind of like being a drug addict (I read somewhere) and I think she went through withdrawals from OM. I think she is having withdrawals now any suggestions on this or just let her be?
IMHO, when a woman ends an A (even if she makes the decision b/c she discovers OM is a cad), she is suddenly left feeling very empty.
That's a horrible experience for anyone, no matter if they are to blame or not. She doesn't have any loving feelings for her H. She just feels a huge void. It's that same void that can turn a lot of people toward another person. She will be very vulnerable. Not only will she be depressed about her life, but she feels she gave up her chance for happiness when she gave up the OM. (That's part of the fantasy.) But then, the withdrawal comes. If I had not had people on this board to coach me and tell me what was happening and what to expect, I don't know if I would have made it through my ordeal. I had never heard about the PEA chemical changes the brain experienced when having an A. If you haven't read about it, search it out on the Internet. Very interesting stuff.
This is the part I don't really understand about it. I mean I know what you're saying I just can't relate to the actual feeling. I'll think more about this.She will go through the initial withdrawal and then hard withdrawal symptoms. If she has any contact with the OM it can pull her back to square one in withdrawing. That's why no contact by any means is so important.
I really wish she gets this no-contact business. I don't know, this is where I feel beat up. I just feel I don't stand a chance because all OM for W is her soulmate. Sometimes I feel like the bad guy from Romeo & Juliet stopping their love, because she talks about it like it's real love or something. To me ours is real love, because ours is unconditional and a lot of pressure of real life. We handled our issues before, but thats because there was no OM that brain washed her.So, she'll experience addiction withdrawal and depression. That in itself would be enough for any MR to withstand, but there's the issue she will have with resentment. Now remember, I'm just talking about her feelings. You will have plenty of your own issues, also.
I think I'm still angry at her actions. Also, the feeling that she decided to have an affair and I'm the only one working on saving the M?! I really need strength to go on...Whenever I read a story from a LBH who says his WAW
Sorry, hit the submit button too soon.
Whenever I hear from a LBH that his WAW has ended her A and everything seems to be good after just three or four weeks.....I have a lot of doubts. Again, this is JMHO, but I don't think most women can go from an unhappy MR into an EA/PA and then jump right back into being that loving wife again in just a few weeks. I believe she has to work through her own issues, plus her and the H working on the M together before she can be the W she used to be.
She has a ton of resentment toward her H. Now, I referred to "timing" in my last post.....that is when they need to open up and talk (maybe with a MC helping them) so that the problems can be resolved and the resentments healed. Otherwise, it's going to take a long time.....and hard work, for her to be able to overcome it.
The fourth major issue is forgiveness. Yes, of course you have to be able to forgive her for the A, but so does she. I'm talking about her forgiving herself. It's the hardest thing I've ever experienced! One thing that will prevent her from forgiving herself is hanging onto resentments from the past. Not that one thing justifies the other in these cases, it's just the way it works.
It's been five years since I ended my EA. It seems a life time ago. The hardest part for me? Forgiving myself. Even now, as I type this, the tears are stinging my eyes. Sometimes the linea between guilt...forgiving...and regretting runs together and I'm not sure which is which. You will never know how much I regret what I did to myself, my M, my H, and my family! I have to live with that for the rest of my life. My H may have failed at a lot of things, but I alone carry the label of "cheater" in my M.
Sandi, this really hits home. I can almost feel what you've felt and what my W is feeling right now. Really thank you for sharing your feelings. I need to understand WAS so I can detach the right way. I'm still confuse on detaching. Maybe because I'm still angry? I'm practicing to be cordial and at the same time cordial...It's been 3 days now that I think I've detached correctly.
Anyway, that will be four of the main things your W will face in herself. It took me time to reach the place I was willing "to be willing" to put forth any effort. It took all my energy just to end the EA and stay in my house with my H. I didn't have any desire to stay, I was just doing "the right thing". Doing the right thing doesn't automatically give you the fuel you need to operate. The depression just about did me in! I asked my H to go with me to MC and he would not do it. He would not talk to anyone, but yet he wanted me to put forth 100% effort. (His words, exactly.) He had no idea what that did to me. More resentment! More depression!
So, without any professional help, (and I didn't feel like my H was willing to help b/c he said he had done nothing wrong), it took me quite a while to get to the place of putting forth any actual "effort" other than just being there. If your W asks you to go with her to therapy or MC, then please agree to do whatever it takes to work through it. Don't let stubbornness or pride get in the way of healing the M.
Be very, very patient at waiting for her to come around. You have your hell to get through, and she has her own to get through. Then there's that part you have to go through together. If she sees you being there to listen to her, and looking intently into her eyes when she's talking to you, that will mean so much! I can't tell you how far that one act will carry you. One of the first things that a H does to hurt the MR is when his W talks and he tunes her out. That is very insulting and painful to her. So, listen carefully to her, no matter how uninteresting it may be to you. DO NOT TRY TO TELL HER HOW TO FIX IT. Unless she asks you what to do, don't tell her. Most women just need to share their feelings. The man (Mr. Fixer) thinks he's suppose to solve her problems, but that just leaves her feeling frustrated. If she wants his help, she'll ask him.
I never thought I'm a Mr. Fix it in our relationship. But the more I see my actions the more I see the "fix" side of me. I'm learning and will change this.
Don't stop working on your improvements! Sure she needs to make changes, too, but if you get into finger pointing, the M will be back into serious danger zones before it has a chance to heal. She has to see that you weren't making changes just to get her back, and then stopped. She wants you to stay like that for now on. If you slack up, you'll be back here again. So be ready to be the one who steps up every day and shows her that you are the leader in the R.
Be sensitive to her feelings. You can tell if your W is down, right? Can you tell if she's had a bad day without her telling you? Okay, can you tell when she's lonely from when she wants to be alone? Do you know when you should play and kid around with her from when you know not to go there with her? Can you tell when she just wants to be held in your arms and be assured everything's going to be alright, but she doesn't want to have sex? If you don't know, then you are probably like the majority of the male population! But, you can always try to learn.
Just as you can't afford to apply any pressure now, you can't afford to do it months from now. Can you handle it? Can you be the man and have the attitude that "Honey, I love you and if you get too tired to walk, I'll carry you, but we are going to make it through this journey." That's the attitude you have to take, b/c if you start letting your male ego get in the way of the healing process....you'll have a bad time of it. You may find yourself feeling that you're the only one doing the "work" in the R. But if she's depressed and experiencing all that stuff I just talked about, then she won't have the drive like you do. It's one thing to want something and go after it with gusto, but quite another when you're just trying to do the right thing and your hearts not all the way in right now. (Most LBH's don't want to hear that, but I'm telling you the truth!)
Right now, you have the energy and desire to start pumping out whatever it takes to get her to agree to stay M. But it's that day-to-day grit that gets old and tries the patients of your soul. That's when you have to remind yourself that love is driving you....not ego. Again, I ask you, are you the man?
Your M can not only survive this, but it can be happy again. She can desire you again, and she can have the "want-to" back in the R again.
I get it no pressure, give a lot of patience. I have to practice. I'm not there yet, I'm far from it. Patience is my weakness I know I'm not patient, my W know I'm not patient. This is really testing me. Thats why I'm glad I found this board because this board is taking my mind off the obsession to all this and the same time I'm becoming more goal oriented. 4mos ago I was a wreck, I didn't have this board...I took a while to get easier. Now, it's only been a week since the latest blow up,and I'm already feeling a lot better-thanks for showing support.
Journaling~~
Another positive night. I got home tonight and W is running late from work. So I took the kids and bought dinner. Took all 3 of them with me. So whats the big deal? Well, the old me wouldn't have done this, the old me would've waited for the W to get home and make her buy dinner, yes sad to say but that was me. By the time I got home buying food W was home. No biggie for her and I realized she's seeing it and she just don't want to admit it--like she said before "a little too late". If she doesn't see it that still fine since my kids and I had a great time driving. We all ate dinner and that's that, WE WERE ALL HUNGRY
glad you see that it's not a big deal but it IS a 180 for you, so good for you. Just understand that ONE gesture that most people think is normal,
isn't going to turn around 18 years of behavior that doesn't match. Give your 180s time
b/c you can counter her negatives with positives. Make sure you don't fuel her reasons for leaving.A couple of things though in the middle of getting dinner and post dinner. I texted W to see if she will eat before she gets home, she didn't reply right away so I called for dinner. But while I was phoning the order she text me, call my cell, and called the house phone. D17 answered since I was on the phone ordering food. I can hear in the background the people from her work it's almost like telling me that look I'm really at work don't you hear my coworkers, I'm not with OM? I don't know what to make of this but atleast she's making me aware that she's really at work?
Maybe she's trying to win my trust again?
Read nothing into this^^^...if it was meant for anyone, it may have been meant for your d17.The second thing is that
I brought up the S talk.
why??? We were suppose to start tomorrow,
and she's suppose to leave.
if she shows doubt or a wish to delay, why would you push for her to leave?
I thought maybe if she doesn't see me she'll miss me and our family. And for her to realize that it is not what she wanted. She expressed she didn't want to be married or with me anymore, no more drive to work on our M, she doesn't feel it anymore she doesnt know how to get it back. She feels lying/pretending if she tries to hug or kiss me. So I thought, she should get a chance to see how it is. If she likes that life without me I'll accept but at least her doubts will be clear.-- I replied and said "well I'm thinking maybe we should put it off until we see counseling"? So we're basically answering questions with questions. So she also said "yes, I think TS is good idea but I think we need to do it correctly with counseling help." I left it at that so for now our TS is on hold.
So now we're back in the same spot, living in the same roof,
but I did tell her that I don't know how would I react if this EA happen again, and that I won't be a part of this love triangle. And she assured me it won't happen again that this is a wake up call for her.
WHY are you bringing this up now? What was the goal?
[b]Mainly a validation on my part to stop the EA. I know I said it once and I'll try to let it go and put the EA on the side for now.[/b]
We talked briefly about our R, and I basically said so now we'll try again? Bad move Newman, I knew the answer to that, and her answer is "well it's not that I want to but, I don't hate you but I don't know if my feelings would return." And I got sucked in more, and I said "well the EA, I'm not owning up to, that was your decision. But what I'm owning up to is creating your feelings the way you felt" and she said she's really sorry for what happened." It was getting in deeper getting emotional and then that's when I decided to shut up, and I said ok and left the MB.
So it goes--
So, what will YOU do DIFFERENTLY,
to show her that marriage to you can be different and better?
B/c THAT IS THE KEY....Thanks again everyone! You have no idea how this is really helping me cope with this painful part of my life. But I feel as even if our R don't work out, I will be a better man by then. I'm learning so much about myself. I normally don't spill my guts to anyone not even my friends and here I am spilling everything to save my marriage. Much respect to the WAW and LBS here in DB!
Newman
your wife will not come back to the marriage and really do the work
unless she believes that marriage to you can be better/different than before.
YOU have to show her that. In concrete ways, not more of the same.
make sense?
I urge you to get the tools for rebuilding the marriage by doing something like
Retrovaille. You glossed over it but frankly, if you have been spending this much time "working on things" with no results, then clearly
you need some tools you both lack. She needs you to take the lead, imo.
Retrovaille is a weekend retreat (w/a follow up program) for couples in crisis.
It's very very good. I highly recommend it.
Yes we checked out the Retrovaille website. I'm in to it but W thought it was similar to marriage encounter. We did Marriage encounter years ago. I thought it helped us. But this time W is not receptive of anything like this but she's willing to go to MC. I'll re-open retrovaille when I feel something change in her. Thanks for your post 25yrsMLC.
Journal today,
So tonight at home, Nothing really to report, but while eating dinner, W was feeding s3 and for some reason she sat next to me. I even kind of freaked out because lately that rarely happens. While feeding s3, she also brushed my arm and back, made me kind of jumpy I hope she didn't notice. Then, it is back to far end of the couch...WTH. I just don't get it sometimes.
I know, I'm probably making a whole lot of nothing but I thought that was interesting.
Weekend will be interesting SIL and W family coming over--this will be awkward. But if I haven't update you lately, only SIL and her H knows the EA last week. I also felt they are dark on me, they haven't even asked me how I'm doing. We text a lot last weekend and all of a sudden they stopped replying.
I think what's happening is that, although they don't agree with W having an EA, they will support Ws decision if we D for all the pain I put her through.
Yep, that's the bad effect of telling SIL about the EA, it also exposes my bad ways. Of course they know her faults, but they will be on her side--well I knew than. Anyways, we'll see how this play out.
I will fight all this by concentrating on me and my kids. Right now that's all that matters. I'll be a better man and father and hope that W would join me.
Newman
I'm feeling one of those lows right now. The urge to approach my W to be close to her and talk with her is strong. I don't know why and I know you guys have said if I backslid from any of this will put me back to square one. So instead I'm writing it down. You guys are my new friends and friends that know more about me than any of my other friends.
So I feel sad that my w and her withdrawal with OM. Sadly to say is because I think I feel jealous. How could she give him this much time?! She's been with me for 18 yrs and that seem like nothing to her.
It's really been 16 months since the INILWY...bomb since I felt love from her. I've been in this torment for 16mos. The text messages, what were they? Why she reached out to him rather than me. Was I really that bad of a H?!
We're in the same roof again and I'm afraid she will get comfortable and then entertains the OM again once he try to lure her back in. I just don't know if I have more strength to deal with that. Isn't this really cake eating?
The roommate status when will it end? When will she get her feelings back?
The only positives right now are my kids. They are returning my love back. But it feels different something's missing, I don't feel complete I walk around with a pain in my chest.
Anyway, looks like I diverted to writing these instead of approaching my W. Gotta get ready for work. But these are the things I would've told my W today. Thanks for your ears.
I'll read Denver sitch how he handled playing cool with his W during his ordeal and Sandi's post to understand my W better.
Have a good Thursday DB!
Newman
Just some thoughts on detaching:
From the readings here that I gather. "lovingly detach=no spite, no anger, revenge".
Seem simple but hard to put into actions.
So in my sitch, I go in the house I say "hi W, how's your day? Tell her my day" treat her like a friend or co worker? Is detaching, putting aside the loving feelings?
I then proceed with the kids and love them as a father would love heir children. Living in the same roof, how you detach and not seem you gave up on the R? Weekends I will be with W and family all day.
We normally go to the mall, eat out on weekends, do I keep doing that but the only difference not talk about R With the W? Am I detaching correctly?
Any thoughts?
Newman
Dettaching is hard in the same house.
Yeah...no R talks, unless she brings them up and if she does...well...
It's like a minefield.
If she doesn't want to talk? Don't even tell her about your day.
Dettaching just isn't about not communicating, to me it was also about not allowing their day...good or bad, their mood, good or bad to impact me. Not unless it was good and she wanted to include me.
Why wouldn't a person want to be impacted by their spouses good mood? Lets say she is in a great mood because she is going to go out....without you. Crappy example but I made my point.
Their mood and day...simply doesn't impact you if it will impact you negatively.
Dettach from the drama not of your making.
Jack3 thanks.
Definitely need some practicing...I'll get it one of these days or not
Although my W got this down perfect--she's detached from me the way you described it.
Newman
Having just a crappy day. Went to d17 school with the W and I must admit I'm a little tired from work. Then to go to the school sit go through the periods were pretty tiring.
Then I noticed W wasn't wearing her wedding ring so that added to my bad mood. I tried so hard not to mention it because I wasn't gonna let it bother me but it did and I did ask her. And her response is that she will wear it when she wants to.
I don't know the whole time i was with them I felt out of place and also I just don't feel like me. I felt really insecure and not confident. I guess I'm not detaching well enough or not detaching at all for that matter.
Then I realized that as I am almost feel like walking on egg shells and maybe I'm just trying to be too nice?? I feel like just letting go and just let what happen happens. I guess that's what detaching is? Im to the point that I'll do whatever I want to do and not worry about her.
I think right now I'm putting a lot of stress with myself to please my W? Is this normal for LBS?
I don't know I just feel beat up with this sitch. At one point maybe she's better off with the OM, I just felt inadequate for her. And maybe ill be happier with someone else. Maybe because I'm doing/worrying about what I can do on 180?
Today is definitely one of those days that I felt like giving up. Talk to me guys, I could use your thoughts.
Newman
Newman, I feel your pain and your thoughts. It's so strange how you can have a decent day then all the thoughts and questions start to swell up in your mind and it pulls you back down. That's where I am at also. Really the only thing that is keeping me sane is exercise. Do you have time to exercise? I have been dealing with the feeling of hopeless. Nothing seems to help, and being told to be patient is not that easy. Keep your head up and one day at a time. Is my daily slogan. DR
Before I go thru your post, I noticed you are not GAL much. TO me, GAL must involve meeting new people. And YOU CAN GAL even if you are so busy.
I lived in the interior of Alaska in the winter WITH a newborn and did a ton of GAL, b/c I had to. What choice did I really have?
I refused to surrender to the dark and cold of their winters...emotionally and socially.
You can GAL way more. JOIN something this week. Take a class, volunteer, coach, get into the parent teacher things, get involved. Your d17 will be out of the house soon. Do stuff with her b/c it's the right thing to do, (and b/c it moves most mothers) and b/c your d17 needs you now more than ever, but she may not express that.
use your remaining time better
Having just a crappy day. Went to d17 school with the W and I must admit I'm a little tired from work. Then to go to the school sit go through the periods were pretty tiring.
Hey, it's probably the last year you'll do that. Try to be positive about it. It's not fun to be around negativity anyhow and is that something your w mentioned as an issue?
I'm not clear on what she SAID her reasons for wanting out of the m are, other than OM.
And as for your d, Follow up with a teacher or two or ask your d questions about her classes and homework and any resources she might need for her college applications, etc.
Then I noticed W wasn't wearing her wedding ring so that added to my bad mood. I tried so hard not to mention it because I wasn't gonna let it bother me but it did and I did ask her. And her response is that she will wear it when she wants to.
so what did your asking accomplish? Remember that next time. INstead, you could have removed yours, or said nothing. But you HAD to ask her b/c "it bothered you". Hey, that cannot be enough of a reason b/c a lot of things are going to bother you in the coming year and
you cannot yield to temptation every time and blurt out your questions. Usually the answers are not what we want to hear. In fact they rarely are.
I don't know the whole time i was with them I felt out of place and also I just don't feel like me. I felt really insecure and not confident. I guess I'm not detaching well enough or not detaching at all for that matter.
true, you are not detaching yet. I'll post a short piece on detachment later but there are many posts around her on that topic. Look it up on the homepage or in the topics.
Then I realized that as I am almost feel like walking on egg shells and maybe I'm just trying to be too nice?? I feel like just letting go and just let what happen happens. I guess that's what detaching is? Im to the point that I'll do whatever I want to do and not worry about her.
I think right now I'm putting a lot of stress with myself to please my W? Is this normal for LBS?
It's normal but it's also very exhausting and hard to maintain. Something will have to give.
When you GAL , which we hammer here b/c it works, that will help you look more appealing to your w, feel better about yourself, and obsess less. You are not GAL FOR your wife, but it does have that byproduct, eventually. B/C how can you GAL and be content and pleasant and happy if she's made you out to be such a negative force?
BY GAL, you undermine her negative images AND you feel better too.
That will help in the detachment phase too.
I don't know I just feel beat up with this sitch. At one point maybe she's better off with the OM, I just felt inadequate for her. And maybe ill be happier with someone else. Maybe because I'm doing/worrying about what I can do on 180?
Today is definitely one of those days that I felt like giving up. Talk to me guys, I could use your thoughts.
Newman
Here's the piece on Detachment.
"This was originally posted by Peanut.
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we say or do things that undermine our goals.
We can NOT control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, "I am not getting what I want so I must pull back."
It is the natural acceptance of the reality that "I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
Newman, I feel your pain and your thoughts. It's so strange how you can have a decent day then all the thoughts and questions start to swell up in your mind and it pulls you back down. That's where I am at also. Really the only thing that is keeping me sane is exercise. Do you have time to exercise? I have been dealing with the feeling of hopeless. Nothing seems to help, and being told to be patient is not that easy. Keep your head up and one day at a time. Is my daily slogan. DR
Thanks for chiming in DM. Appreciate the encouragement. Yeah man this is painful and such a roller coaster. I'm glad you're keeping your sanity in check. I'll visit your thread. You are right exercising help. I usually exercise in the morning but this morning I didn't because I only slept a few hours. That's when my mind and obsessions to all this came back. Good to hear from you.
Stay in touch.
Newman
25ymlc,
Your posts are really helping keep them coming. I will re-read your post but you're right about asking the ring, I set myself up for that I knew I wouldn't like the answer. Yeah I'm struggling with detaching, I mean I read it and understand but I can't seem to apply it yet.
Regarding GALing, I would love to do stuff. I'm actually thinking of joining the gym, possibly volunteer for charity events, more exercise on the weekend. Honestly I fear that my wife will just justify her complaints about me in the past. You see last year I exercise a lot due to health reasons, I lost weight but the exercising took a lot of my weekend mornings away from the family. I think she has resentment on that. So since the INILWY bomb I cut down and only exercise one day during the weekend instead of saturday and Sunday. So that's my concern. What is your take on that? How can I GAL if I know W will see that as selfish me again?
Thanks for the help.
Newman
[quote=newman7977]
I'm not clear on what she SAID her reasons for wanting out of the m are, other than OM.
[/b]Her main reason are that she was unhappy for years, she lost her feelings for me, her love died and she doesn't know how to get it back, she doesnt want to pretend, she doesn't feel hugging me, lost the attraction to me, she has no sex drive, she can't stand me touching/kissing her. I think theres more but these are all I can remember. She also mentioned our issues were not because of the OM and if we were to D she's not going to be with him because he's from another state. So I think shes hoping to find the right one similar to OM, because to her she just doesn't feel it and can't commit to the marriage.[[b]
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we say or do things that undermine our goals.
We can NOT control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, "I am not getting what I want so I must pull back."
It is the natural acceptance of the reality that "I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
I'll try to have a positive outlook for this Friday. I didn't get to exercise today because I stayed in bed just to spend time with s3 before I go to work.
Yesterday was bad and I let that day dictate my mood. Today I will be positive and be myself lately I've been trying too cautious so that W won't see anything negative, but let's face it, majority of what I do now is negative for her. I've been moping around lately and this is not me. I will not worry about W's actions today. I will try to get my focus back for the kids and me. I need to GAL. But I still have question from my last post. I'm interested what your thoughts on that.
Newman
The other thing that's really eating me lately is that d17 expressed to my mom that she thinks a lot of what's happening now is somewhat my fault. She doesn't know the A and we've talked to her about how this is equally both me and W's fault. She seemed she understood but I feel a little disconnect from her.
I just want to clarify that I don't intend to tell her W's EA because I know that would mess her up.
But how do I handle this, how more can I re-assure her that both me and her mom are equally at fault and not mostly me?
I think this is what really pulling me down. Also when I GAL wouldn't that clarify for her that "mom is right he's selfish doing his own things". My w was very vocal on her complaints during he years and she made sure everyone heard. Where I kept all that private because what mattered to me is my conscience not everyone's validation in the family.
I'll take your thoughts thanks again.
Newman
The other thing that's really eating me lately is that d17 expressed to my mom that she thinks a lot of what's happening now is somewhat my fault. She doesn't know the A and we've talked to her about how this is equally both me and W's fault. She seemed she understood but I feel a little disconnect from her.
I just want to clarify that I don't intend to tell her W's EA because I know that would mess her up.
But how do I handle this, how more can I re-assure her that both me and her mom are equally at fault and not mostly me?
YOU do not. You don't get out the score card to show your d your grievance list so that she'll see the fault of your w. IT's petty and unhelpful and it will backfire in your r with your d AND your r with your w. Let her take some of the heat if you feel it's unfairly aimed at you. Without saying it, she'll know you have a trump card so she ought to share some more of the responsibility with your d. But YOU saying it, Is the last thing you do.
In my h's case when his parents divorced, I had not yet met him or his parents.
When I finally met his mother, they'd been divorced 2 years. His mother CONSTANTLY bashed his dad. I literally did not know his actual name b/c of what SHE referred to him as.
Granted, a lot of it was deserved. But Finally I met the FIL and he never once criticized his ex w.
That made a huge impression on me. I never forgot that.
I think this is what really pulling me down. Also when I GAL wouldn't that clarify for her that "mom is right he's selfish doing his own things".
why must your GAL only involve YOU alone? Take a child with you for some of it, certainly over the weekends. Can't you do a hobby or sport or volunteer work WITH a child?
My w was very vocal on her complaints during he years and she made sure everyone heard. Where I kept all that private because what mattered to me is my conscience not everyone's validation in the family.
I'll take your thoughts thanks again.
Newman
well you did tell others about the OM so I'm not clear on how silent you were. But your d has eyes. She knows more than you realize and
I would hold my head high and worry MUCH MORE about her feeling reassured of your love for her-
than her love for you.
You know the truth and for now that must be enough.
When my uncle left my aunt for OW, my aunt NEVER told her kids and they were sort of baffled by their parent's divorce. Years later when OW got cancer, my aunt slipped up and said "only the good die young so she'll survive" and this shocked her d. Finally my aunt apologized and said "I never really felt fairly treated by your father b/c he cheated and she knew we were married and had kids..." and only then did my cousin realize the real reason her father raised HIS STEP kids and not his real kids...
Be the parent/adult in the r. Reach out to comfort her instead of wanting to be comforted by your d.
Make sense?
[quote=newman7977]
I'm not clear on what she SAID her reasons for wanting out of the m are, other than OM.
[/b]Her main reason are that she was unhappy for years, she lost her feelings for me, her love died and she doesn't know how to get it back, she doesnt want to pretend, she doesn't feel hugging me, lost the attraction to me, she has no sex drive, she can't stand me touching/kissing her. I think theres more but these are all I can remember. She also mentioned our issues were not because of the OM and if we were to D she's not going to be with him because he's from another state. So I think shes hoping to find the right one similar to OM, because to her she just doesn't feel it and can't commit to the marriage.[[b]
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we say or do things that undermine our goals.
We can NOT control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, "I am not getting what I want so I must pull back."
It is the natural acceptance of the reality that "I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
almost all of what you said about her reasons are about HER and not you.
Surely she had SOME complaints, like the one you mention later about being selfish and on your own w/your GAL things...
think about THOSE types of complaints more so you can do better 180s.
The other thing that's really eating me lately is that d17 expressed to my mom that she thinks a lot of what's happening now is somewhat my fault. She doesn't know the A and we've talked to her about how this is equally both me and W's fault. She seemed she understood but I feel a little disconnect from her.
I just want to clarify that I don't intend to tell her W's EA because I know that would mess her up.
But how do I handle this, how more can I re-assure her that both me and her mom are equally at fault and not mostly me?
YOU do not. You don't get out the score card to show your d your grievance list so that she'll see the fault of your w. IT's petty and unhelpful and it will backfire in your r with your d AND your r with your w. Let her take some of the heat if you feel it's unfairly aimed at you. Without saying it, she'll know you have a trump card so she ought to share some more of the responsibility with your d. But YOU saying it, Is the last thing you do.
In my h's case when his parents divorced, I had not yet met him or his parents.
When I finally met his mother, they'd been divorced 2 years. His mother CONSTANTLY bashed his dad. I literally did not know his actual name b/c of what SHE referred to him as.
Granted, a lot of it was deserved. But Finally I met the FIL and he never once criticized his ex w.
That made a huge impression on me. I never forgot that.
I think this is what really pulling me down. Also when I GAL wouldn't that clarify for her that "mom is right he's selfish doing his own things".
why must your GAL only involve YOU alone? Take a child with you for some of it, certainly over the weekends. Can't you do a hobby or sport or volunteer work WITH a child?
My w was very vocal on her complaints during he years and she made sure everyone heard. Where I kept all that private because what mattered to me is my conscience not everyone's validation in the family.
I'll take your thoughts thanks again.
Newman
well you did tell others about the OM so I'm not clear on how silent you were. But your d has eyes. She knows more than you realize and
I would hold my head high and worry MUCH MORE about her feeling reassured of your love for her-
than her love for you.
You know the truth and for now that must be enough.
When my uncle left my aunt for OW, my aunt NEVER told her kids and they were sort of baffled by their parent's divorce. Years later when OW got cancer, my aunt slipped up and said "only the good die young so she'll survive" and this shocked her d. Finally my aunt apologized and said "I never really felt fairly treated by your father b/c he cheated and she knew we were married and had kids..." and only then did my cousin realize the real reason her father raised HIS STEP kids and not his real kids...
Be the parent/adult in the r. Reach out to comfort her instead of wanting to be comforted by your d.
Make sense?
Make sense. I really appreciate your thoughts and sharing some your experiences. These are some
true reminders for me and since this whole ordeal I somehow lost what's important. I have to show my kids the love for their comfort not the other way around. I think because it's been so long since I felt the love from my W.
[quote=newman7977]
I'm not clear on what she SAID her reasons for wanting out of the m are, other than OM.
[/b]Her main reason are that she was unhappy for years, she lost her feelings for me, her love died and she doesn't know how to get it back, she doesnt want to pretend, she doesn't feel hugging me, lost the attraction to me, she has no sex drive, she can't stand me touching/kissing her. I think theres more but these are all I can remember. She also mentioned our issues were not because of the OM and if we were to D she's not going to be with him because he's from another state. So I think shes hoping to find the right one similar to OM, because to her she just doesn't feel it and can't commit to the marriage.[[b]
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we say or do things that undermine our goals.
We can NOT control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, "I am not getting what I want so I must pull back."
It is the natural acceptance of the reality that "I am alone responsible for how I act. I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
almost all of what you said about her reasons are about HER and not you.
Surely she had SOME complaints, like the one you mention later about being selfish and on your own w/your GAL things...
think about THOSE types of complaints more so you can do better 180s.Ok that's interesting how I unconsciously named her reasons. I'll write them down here so I can remind myself. Her complaints about me and her reasons for getting out of the M:
1) I'm selfish
2) I was not a good enough father
3) I neglected her-complaint that how many times have I texted her to check in
4) Although at the time she was ok with this, but she resented the fact that I was out Sat & Sun excercising--she felt lonely
5) I was controlling
6) I never took initiative to take her out on a date
7) I never like going to the In-laws house
8) I was always depended on her to buy dinner, go to the market the point is I waited for her to get home to make a decision.
These are all I can remember. She said these are little things that add up through the years. Although, I don't completely agree with all of these but these are her complaints about me.
So I see now where I can go on my 180s. The GAL, you opened my eyes, I can do stuff with the kids. I am actually googled some activities for this Sunday. Just need to put it into action. I'll start with baby steps.
Newman
Journaling,
Well I was able to rack some miles in my road bike today, it was enough to get me that feel good brain chemical lol. Tomorrow, Sunday morning I will join the group I've been riding with--just haven't ridden in 3 weeks.
So today Saturday, the rollercoaster goes on. While I was getting ready to go out to ride, W seem to be upbeat with me. She mentioned how busy she's been the last three days and basically gave me the scoop at what's happening to her work.
I engaged and really held back on giving advise and just STHU my mouth and just really tried to listen and validate. There was this little voices in my head coming from the posts here in DB and telling me "newman be a good listener!"
But I as mentioned I was GAL and was about to ride my bike. When W finished talking, I continued on my business and I left. Now is that a good move or should I have stuck around for more talking?
So the day went on and I got home. Another surprise is W asked me to pick up S12 cake, we are celebrating his b-day today. I say this is surprise because lately she's been asking people other than me for favors. So of course I said sure and I even took S12 with me. My question to the vets here, is this normal to the WAS, when they stopped asking LBS for favors as if making them feel very little? My W does this to me and it use to bug me maybe that's why she was doing that--but not today.
S12 and I had a good drive to the place, we talked, we had fun, and we ate lunch. It was sincerely good time and I felt good.
I was a little nervous about the get together, IL's came including SIL and her H (the only one that knows the EA in her family). This is the first time seeing them after the blow-up on 9/5. I talked briefly to SIL's H about the sitch and he's a little reserved about his opinions and he ask if we can hang out soon. Seems like he wants to talk more but not comfortable with everyone in the house. So one of these days will hang out.
Another positive is that W even put together my food and somehow when we bump each other, she was even playful about bumping me back. I'm like WTH,-- in my mind that is.
SIL and her H was the last one to leave so I thought they will talk about the sitch, but they didn't they just said how we doing and that was it. I'm kind of glad we didn't talk about it since it would put pressure to my W.
When everyone left all 5 of us just hanging out and talking and watching tv it was pleasant. W is still upbeat. We are talking about a big house and W said maybe we should buy a big house. Now this is the first time since the bomb. Since then I've been saying this and she always said a cold "NO". But tonight was different.
I can't make any sense of what's happening. I know that we are far from R. We are still sleeping separately. But it's good to see this little positives. Maybe it's nothing.
Anyway another day tomorrow. I will GAL with the kids since W is going with her co-workers to go out. This is within the norm they do this about once every two months.
What are you guys' thoughts? Sandi and Denver haven't heard from you guys, you guys are on long weekend or something? DM how you've been I'll check your thread shortly. 25yrsmlc, jack3, another stander thanks for keeping me in check lately. Chime in if you can.
PS sorry for the long post, typos, and grammar errors
Newman
Newman, sounds like you had a good day yesterday. Sure makes you feel good, but reserved. My W has been doing the same thing when comes to asking me for help. She won't and its like she will not because it would make me feel like she needs me. Which if you really think about she doesn't. Good to hear about your bike ride. I agree it sure makes you feel better. Also hope these little signs are the start in the right direction. It makes you feel reserved doesn't it. I be afraid to allow myself to be run over again, but if you do not take the risk you will never start the healing process. Stay strong and keep posting your stch is so similar to mine that I have been reading your instead of mine. DM
I can't make any sense of what's happening.
You needn't. What you are writing has a good "vibe". Keep up the spirit. Over time there is a chance that W is meandering back to you.
Newman, sounds like you had a good day yesterday. Sure makes you feel good, but reserved. My W has been doing the same thing when comes to asking me for help. She won't and its like she will not because it would make me feel like she needs me. Which if you really think about she doesn't. Good to hear about your bike ride. I agree it sure makes you feel better. Also hope these little signs are the start in the right direction. It makes you feel reserved doesn't it. I be afraid to allow myself to be run over again, but if you do not take the risk you will never start the healing process. Stay strong and keep posting your stch is so similar to mine that I have been reading your instead of mine. DM
DM, good to hear from you. I haven't caught up on your sitch, but you sound good considering the circumstances. Our W's seem to think alike or we think alike therefore creating this similar sitch. Yeah hang in there DM.
I'll update later. Last night was bad we got into the R talk and I'm still emotionally drained.
Newman
I can't make any sense of what's happening.
You needn't. What you are writing has a good "vibe". Keep up the spirit. Over time there is a chance that W is meandering back to you.
Thanks long run, yeah I got to remember that I'd go nuts trying to make sense of all these.
Newman
Ok I just want to journal what happened yesterday:
You guys will be disappointed in me but I ended up talking the R talk and OM in this relationship with the W.
I just felt all this anger building up and I needed to get them out. So I ask the W if OM contacted her, and she said "well I think he called my work but I wasn't around, and I think it was him but I didn't talk to him". So this really infuriates me more and this is when we started talking deeper in the R and I'm like WTF when where you planning to tell me...
So anyway, we went on and I told her the next time she feels like deceiving me, let me know or D my a$$$. I felt I had to give my boundaries and basically told her I don't want to be deceived again. She really promised me she will not do it and if she does she'll let me know. So I said, Ok that's fair enough.
See the last time she lied (9/4), s3 kept asking where she was, she told us she has a meeting. I had no idea until I got some proof that she was lying and that she was actually with OM. Low life OM was in our town that weekend. I told her, you know it's one thing you deceive me but I will draw the line if the piece of sh!t OM takes your time away from my Kids and you end up lying to the kids. I was just boiling...
I know this is not the DB way and not what I was working at, but I needed to make it clear and let her know I wouldn't stay in this M if she entertains OM again.
I told her she's got a choice, that I can not control her actions but I have a choice to react and not to be in this marriage as long as the low life OM is in the picture. Honestly, this is what I feel. And I really won't tolerate it if this happens again, meaning I'm out.
I don't know how much damaged it did. And frankly at this point I don't give a rats azz. I'm just pissed of the stitch.
She was concerned about my anger, and so I told her yes I'm very angry but this emotion I need to process and it will wear off.
I'm to the point that Im not gonna let her change my mood. I'll try, I think that's detaching, isnt it? I'm gonna be myself and if I get burn so be it, but i'm not going to walk on egg shells anymore.
Maybe I'm just pissed right now or maybe impatient to all this. But maybe one day I'll get it. But right now I was keeping it all in and I didn't want to blow up.
Please remind me again how to do this. Maybe I have to let my anger pass.
Today W bought me my favorite pastry. On her defense she was very apologetic, and hoping that I can forgive her. She said she's trying and reading the 5LL. I felt a little relieved on this.
The thing is I'm struggling to trust her. She said all these promises before that she won't talk to him and then it happened again. I guess I just dont want to get hurt again.
Sorry for the rambling. I needed to vent I guess.
Tonight's journal was pretty quiet. I said Hi and all but that's about it. Tomorrow will be a new day.
Newman
Your discussion with your wife has two sides. It's good that you have clearly shown your boundaries. I assume you are well aware of the fact that now that you have established them you must follow through and enforce them, if need be. The weakness I see is your anger. Diffusing it is very difficult, I know. But in my view your message would have an even better impact if you delivered it calmly. Treat your wife like a co-worker. Polite, friendly, detached. Good luck.
Nothing new to journal it's the same weeknights. I'm generally doing my 180s after work by helping kids with homework and playing w s3 in the backyard even only for about 30mins.
It's been I.5 weeks since no physical interaction with the W, I'm just really trying to be patient. There are lots of moments where I just want to give her a hug
but I know I will just get hurt with her rejection.
So we resume with the roommate status. I give her space by leaving the room wherever she is, but I still talk to her and try not to show my sadness.
My question is, what if she's really liking this? She express to me before that she doesn't mind as long as I don't touch her. Well that's not ok with me, I really don't know how long I can stay like this.
Also, the female co-workers are starting to sound good to me because when I talk to them I can feel a better interactions. I just miss that and sometimes I feel good talking to other people are nice to talk to except my W. I don't know maybe because there are hurt feelings associated with W. anyway I won't do anything stupid like start an A because I know how much it hurts.
But I can't help wonder that being single probably not too bad at all...
So what kind of signs should I be looking for? How do I know she's ready?
So 1.5 weeks in of giving space and no physical touching...
Newman
Your discussion with your wife has two sides. It's good that you have clearly shown your boundaries. I assume you are well aware of the fact that now that you have established them you must follow through and enforce them, if need be. The weakness I see is your anger. Diffusing it is very difficult, I know. But in my view your message would have an even better impact if you delivered it calmly. Treat your wife like a co-worker. Polite, friendly, detached. Good luck.
Thanks longrun. I definitely need to get over this anger. It sux because one minute I'm fine and then another I'm so angry. Will keep reminding myself of this weakness.
I'm reading co-dependent no more hopefully it will help me detach. But I'm struggling the part where it says take care of yourself because that is one of the complaints my w said...seems like if I do that I'll be selfish??? Maybe I need to understand it more.
I did another 180 this morning and left the room before w got oh of the shower. In the past I was there and would kind of see her change. I know that lately she express how that made her feel uncomfortable. So this morning I wasn't there.
Will keep thinking 180..practice detaching...need to gal this weekend.
Newman
Ok really feeling good right now, it's like I'm a high school kid courting a girl again lol.
I know this might be nothing at all but, I wanted to journal so I can refer back to this later. Perhaps I'm starting to finally get the 180s you guys have been mentioning here.
-Started a 180 in the morning by not watching W change clothes. I think this really surprised her since I left and went to another room, whet before I would've stuck around.
-balancing my contact with w...yesterday I barely spoke with her but I listened, I knew she said she'll be busy at work today so I sent her a text to have a good day, even with the busy shedule. I know I shouldn't initiate text but I think I have to balance the communication since this is her complaint that I never bother to contact her. So the plan. Will text her when she least expect it.
- continue with NO physical contact I think that maybe a tiny spec, she's starting to miss me. I'm really avoiding physical contact but at the same time im being nice about it.
-continue 180 w kids, work w s13 with homework. Bought d17 medicine she's got the flu, I offerred to go to the store cause w has big headache. I hang out with s3 in the backyard.
-had a good Convo with w, she told me how busy she been at work, I listened and ask her questions. We had positive interactions. This is another 180 to Keep creating positive environment with her. I think I read this here in DB.
-here's he best part, there was a big bug in the room and w ask d17 for me to go to the room and to take care of the bug which I did, I was excited but didn't show just played it cool
. Because Lately --no way she would've ask me.
- I sensed a little flirting from w while I kill bug..:I was gonna ask her if she wants me to give her massage on her head since she has a headache but I think Its not time yet, so I continue to back off and left the room.
So here i am journaling and two days ago I was p!ssed as heck! Roller coaster?? Am I getting sucked in again? Who knows but I'm enjoying this moment.
Tomorrow got to think of another 180 to start a good day. I can't text since I did that today...ummm maybe I'll show up with her favorite pastry create the unexpected at the end of the day not in the morning. I'll try that.
I welcome all your thoughts and suggestions.
Newman
"So this really infuriates me more and this is when we started talking deeper in the R and I'm like WTF when where you planning to tell me..."
You do understand that if you don't get rid of your anger issues, it's going to be someone else.
Right now you have to deal with the anger. Are you seeing a C for this?
Honestly, the only way to get over the OM is to forgive your W. Like truly forgive her. She's apologized (which is way more than many of the WASs have done here). So YOU are going to have to learn to let it go.
It's not easy and it definitely is going to be one of the hardest things to do. That feeling you have right now that you think is "detachment"? It isn't. It's you self-preserving your ego.
Each time you blow up you start at square one. She's going to think all of the things you're doing now are fake and not real. You could ask her to go to C with you to help YOU if she's open to it.
"So this really infuriates me more and this is when we started talking deeper in the R and I'm like WTF when where you planning to tell me..."
You do understand that if you don't get rid of your anger issues, it's going to be someone else.
Right now you have to deal with the anger. Are you seeing a C for this?
Honestly, the only way to get over the OM is to forgive your W. Like truly forgive her. She's apologized (which is way more than many of the WASs have done here). So YOU are going to have to learn to let it go.
It's not easy and it definitely is going to be one of the hardest things to do. That feeling you have right now that you think is "detachment"? It isn't. It's you self-preserving your ego.
Each time you blow up you start at square one. She's going to think all of the things you're doing now are fake and not real. You could ask her to go to C with you to help YOU if she's open to it.
Right ^^^
"So this really infuriates me more and this is when we started talking deeper in the R and I'm like WTF when where you planning to tell me..."
You do understand that if you don't get rid of your anger issues, it's going to be someone else.
Right now you have to deal with the anger. Are you seeing a C for this?
Honestly, the only way to get over the OM is to forgive your W. Like truly forgive her. She's apologized (which is way more than many of the WASs have done here). So YOU are going to have to learn to let it go.
It's not easy and it definitely is going to be one of the hardest things to do. That feeling you have right now that you think is "detachment"? It isn't. It's you self-preserving your ego.
Each time you blow up you start at square one. She's going to think all of the things you're doing now are fake and not real. You could ask her to go to C with you to help YOU if she's open to it.
Right ^^^
Starsky
"So this really infuriates me more and this is when we started talking deeper in the R and I'm like WTF when where you planning to tell me..."
You do understand that if you don't get rid of your anger issues, it's going to be someone else.
Right now you have to deal with the anger. Are you seeing a C for this?
Honestly, the only way to get over the OM is to forgive your W. Like truly forgive her. She's apologized (which is way more than many of the WASs have done here). So YOU are going to have to learn to let it go.
It's not easy and it definitely is going to be one of the hardest things to do. That feeling you have right now that you think is "detachment"? It isn't. It's you self-preserving your ego.
Each time you blow up you start at square one. She's going to think all of the things you're doing now are fake and not real. You could ask her to go to C with you to help YOU if she's open to it.
Right ^^^
Starsky
Ouch^^^thanks for the hit in the head guys.
I totally agree that I have to diffuse this anger because it's not helping my sitch. I'm really trying and I'll be honest there still anger left but it's getting lighter. As long run pointed out this is a weakness but I'm human after all and I react. My next IC appt I have is in a month and I'll definitely work on this issue.
I'll be lying if I said I already forgave my W I haven't come to terms all I know right now is that I choose to forgive her. I'm trying though I really do, but the scenario keeps repeating in my head. One minute I forgiving the next I'd think how could she do this to me, it's such a back and forth in my head. Yes my w was apologetic and I want to believe she's sincere but she said this before and it's hard to trust if the trust is violated again, you see, I was already regaining my trust but bam 9/4 rolls around and she deceived me again. It will take time I guess.
It's getting a little better, today I didn't obsess that much about the sitch I mean it's still comes and go but today it was less than normal.
I continue my 180 today, I bought dinner (trying to be consistent as far as offering to help) and keeping light communication with W. No R talk just how her day went and such. I also bought some pastries, she loves these things to dip in her coffee. My plan is to do these things once in a while so she doesn't feel smother by it, I'll give it some balance by doing things out of the blue. I notice that she's pretty receptive on what I'm doing unlike before. I think as long as she receptive about these things I'll continue.
So good things I notice so far at least this week:
- she's responsive to my occasional text (she use to just ignore me and really cold answers, now I sense some kindness)
- receptive to me doing stuff ( buying dinner, helping around the house)
- communication improved (trying to create positive environment)
My goals:
- I would really like to see her put her wedding ring back on
- I want to regain emotional closeness
- would like her to initiate contact
I'll work on these for now, the rest are bigger goals.
For me: keep exercising, keep 180s. Still working on GAL...still working on detachment.
Thanks again guys.
Newman
Did great today as far as GAL and continued 180.
Did 50 mile cycling with the group in the morning. Really enjoyed their company it was fun, no one knew my sitch so my environment pushed the sitch on the side.
I GAL'd today with the kids (props to 25yrsmlc for reminding me GAL doesnt have to be by myself). I googled some freeebie stuff I can do around town that is kid friendly. I took the kids with me. I asked W, I really wanted her to go but she said she's not feeling well and so I said "ok we'll see you later"
The trip with the kids was a blast, I really enjoyed it. Although I felt like incomplete, the 3 kids really made me felt good. GAL also made me aware that I can do this, this might be my life down the road if W doesn't come back to M. I'm realizing it's really not that bad.
We came home lights all out it was dark inside house, I carried s3, he was exhausted and fell asleep on the drive home. We came in and W is using laptop. This is when the bad thoughts came to mind that she's talking to LLOM (low life OM) I'm thinking now she will be careful on her tracks so, I think the only way to do this is through Skype? Can someone please enlighten me on how Skype work?
Anyways, I felt like interrogating her like last time. But you know what, this time is different. I was able to gather my thoughts and let go. I thought that maybe the more I ask the more she'll feel excited about her A, I mean the excitement of getting away with it. Can someone point out if WAS' tend to feel this excitement?
So I'm taking it one day at a time, and today I didn't le my suspicions get a grip of me plus I did a great GAL and didn't want to mess that up. Oh lightbulb, maybe that's why its important to GAL.
Your thoughts and comments are welcome.
Newman
Ok I just want to journal what happened yesterday:
You guys will be disappointed in me but I ended up talking the R talk and OM in this relationship with the W.
THIS^^^ IS NOT DBing...just so you know. So don't say "it's not working" because you are not doing it. Did you really truly read the book? IF so, read it again.
IT'll help you setting yourself up again. You had just had some positives and then you let your anger up again, which shows how UNlikely you are to ever forgive her. That means, to HER< you'll hold it over her head forever so to HER
she may as well not even try...and OM looks easier and easier and you look more and more like a mountain to climb with maybe no reward at the top.
I just felt all this anger building up and I needed to get them out.
then exercise or call an anger sponsor. You don't "get them out" on HER!! That is the last thing you do, if ever. IT just confirms her worst negatives of you and helps her justify leaving you.
So I ask the W if OM contacted her, and she said "well I think he called my work but I wasn't around, and I think it was him but I didn't talk to him". So this really infuriates me more and this is when we started talking deeper in the R and I'm like WTF when where you planning to tell me...
HIM calling her is not something to become infuriated about. THEY DID NOT SPEAK and as for why she would not tell you, I'm GUESSING it's b/c you get infuriated at something she had no control over.
So anyway, we went on and I told her the next time she feels like deceiving me, let me know or D my a$$$.
Wow...that's a major backslide. What did you learn from it?
I felt I had to give my boundaries and basically told her I don't want to be deceived again. She really promised me she will not do it and if she does she'll let me know. So I said, Ok that's fair enough.
See the last time she lied (9/4), s3 kept asking where she was, she told us she has a meeting.
1) "Lying" is not the same as her not yet telling you what OM did and
2) lose the scorecard. You are holding onto and counting your grievances against her...there's no way you guys are going to make it like that. Is this a pattern in your marriage?
I had no idea until I got some proof that she was lying and that she was actually with OM. Low life OM was in our town that weekend. I told her, you know it's one thing you deceive me but I will draw the line if the piece of sh!t OM takes your time away from my Kids and you end up lying to the kids. I was just boiling...
I know this is not the DB way and not what I was working at, but I needed to make it clear and let her know I wouldn't stay in this M if she entertains OM again.
I told her she's got a choice, that I can not control her actions but I have a choice to react and not to be in this marriage as long as the low life OM is in the picture. Honestly, this is what I feel. And I really won't tolerate it if this happens again, meaning I'm out.
I don't know how much damaged it did. And frankly at this point I don't give a rats azz. I'm just pissed of the stitch.
IF you want your w to choose you, then be the better choice.
She must believe marriage to you can be better/different than before, OR
she won't choose you. What are YOU DOING to show her that it can be better and different??
She was concerned about my anger, and so I told her yes I'm very angry but this emotion I need to process and it will wear off.
I'm to the point that Im not gonna let her change my mood.
b/c you want to stay angry?? That sounds super attractive AND great for the kids...
so now who is hurting the marriage and family?
I'll try, I think that's detaching, isnt it? I'm gonna be myself and if I get burn so be it, but i'm not going to walk on egg shells anymore.
Maybe I'm just pissed right now or maybe impatient to all this. But maybe one day I'll get it. But right now I was keeping it all in and I didn't want to blow up.
Please remind me again how to do this. Maybe I have to let my anger pass.
clearly you do. When you have a big button pushed, the "rule" we try to apply is to wait 24-48 hours before reacting. You can ALWAYS be angry later!!!!
Post here FIRST and get feedback before giving her the same old knee jerk self righteous anger she's so turned off by.
Today W bought me my favorite pastry. On her defense she was very apologetic, and hoping that I can forgive her. She said she's trying and reading the 5LL. I felt a little relieved on this.
May we assume you graciously accepted her loving gesture?? (OR did you make her wish she had not done it?)
The thing is I'm struggling to trust her. She said all these promises before that she won't talk to him and then it happened again. I guess I just dont want to get hurt again.
Sorry for the rambling. I needed to vent I guess.
Tonight's journal was pretty quiet. I said Hi and all but that's about it. Tomorrow will be a new day.
Newman
Read the DB or Div Remedy book and if you already have then read it again.
It has to sink in to get thru. And it has not sunk in...yet. But there is hope.
She is in the house and is trying. You are better off than many.
Don't blow it b/c you prefer being angry to being hurt & swalloing your pride.
Learn the difference between healthy self respect and a wounded ego lashing out.
Sometimes it's a blurry line.
Ok I just want to journal what happened yesterday:
You guys will be disappointed in me but I ended up talking the R talk and OM in this relationship with the W.
THIS^^^ IS NOT DBing...just so you know. So don't say "it's not working" because you are not doing it. Did you really truly read the book? IF so, read it again.
IT'll help you setting yourself up again. You had just had some positives and then you let your anger up again, which shows how UNlikely you are to ever forgive her. That means, to HER< you'll hold it over her head forever so to HER
she may as well not even try...and OM looks easier and easier and you look more and more like a mountain to climb with maybe no reward at the top.
I just felt all this anger building up and I needed to get them out.
then exercise or call an anger sponsor. You don't "get them out" on HER!! That is the last thing you do, if ever. IT just confirms her worst negatives of you and helps her justify leaving you.
So I ask the W if OM contacted her, and she said "well I think he called my work but I wasn't around, and I think it was him but I didn't talk to him". So this really infuriates me more and this is when we started talking deeper in the R and I'm like WTF when where you planning to tell me...
HIM calling her is not something to become infuriated about. THEY DID NOT SPEAK and as for why she would not tell you, I'm GUESSING it's b/c you get infuriated at something she had no control over.
So anyway, we went on and I told her the next time she feels like deceiving me, let me know or D my a$$$.
Wow...that's a major backslide. What did you learn from it?
I felt I had to give my boundaries and basically told her I don't want to be deceived again. She really promised me she will not do it and if she does she'll let me know. So I said, Ok that's fair enough.
See the last time she lied (9/4), s3 kept asking where she was, she told us she has a meeting.
1) "Lying" is not the same as her not yet telling you what OM did and
2) lose the scorecard. You are holding onto and counting your grievances against her...there's no way you guys are going to make it like that. Is this a pattern in your marriage?
I had no idea until I got some proof that she was lying and that she was actually with OM. Low life OM was in our town that weekend. I told her, you know it's one thing you deceive me but I will draw the line if the piece of sh!t OM takes your time away from my Kids and you end up lying to the kids. I was just boiling...
I know this is not the DB way and not what I was working at, but I needed to make it clear and let her know I wouldn't stay in this M if she entertains OM again.
I told her she's got a choice, that I can not control her actions but I have a choice to react and not to be in this marriage as long as the low life OM is in the picture. Honestly, this is what I feel. And I really won't tolerate it if this happens again, meaning I'm out.
I don't know how much damaged it did. And frankly at this point I don't give a rats azz. I'm just pissed of the stitch.
IF you want your w to choose you, then be the better choice.
She must believe marriage to you can be better/different than before, OR
she won't choose you. What are YOU DOING to show her that it can be better and different??
She was concerned about my anger, and so I told her yes I'm very angry but this emotion I need to process and it will wear off.
I'm to the point that Im not gonna let her change my mood.
b/c you want to stay angry?? That sounds super attractive AND great for the kids...
so now who is hurting the marriage and family?
I'll try, I think that's detaching, isnt it? I'm gonna be myself and if I get burn so be it, but i'm not going to walk on egg shells anymore.
Maybe I'm just pissed right now or maybe impatient to all this. But maybe one day I'll get it. But right now I was keeping it all in and I didn't want to blow up.
Please remind me again how to do this. Maybe I have to let my anger pass.
clearly you do. When you have a big button pushed, the "rule" we try to apply is to wait 24-48 hours before reacting. You can ALWAYS be angry later!!!!
Post here FIRST and get feedback before giving her the same old knee jerk self righteous anger she's so turned off by.
Today W bought me my favorite pastry. On her defense she was very apologetic, and hoping that I can forgive her. She said she's trying and reading the 5LL. I felt a little relieved on this.
May we assume you graciously accepted her loving gesture?? (OR did you make her wish she had not done it?)
The thing is I'm struggling to trust her. She said all these promises before that she won't talk to him and then it happened again. I guess I just dont want to get hurt again.
Sorry for the rambling. I needed to vent I guess.
Tonight's journal was pretty quiet. I said Hi and all but that's about it. Tomorrow will be a new day.
Newman
Read the DB or Div Remedy book and if you already have then read it again.
It has to sink in to get thru. And it has not sunk in...yet. But there is hope.
She is in the house and is trying. You are better off than many.
Don't blow it b/c you prefer being angry to being hurt & swalloing your pride.
Learn the difference between healthy self respect and a wounded ego lashing out.
Sometimes it's a blurry line.25yrsmlc, that day I journaled this ^^^was my lowest point. You are absolutely right about everything you said. I truly thought about what you said "what I've learned". Actually, I did learn something--that is how pathetic And desperate sounded like and will try not to pull that again. I'm reading co-dependency no more and it's really helping me to calm down a bit. And to see things I cannot control and let go.
I am starting to come to terms of what path could my M go. But I'm not giving up yet, my W is trying, I really see it, she's trying to restore those feelings back--I just need to keep thinking to be patient which is my struggle. I am trying though and this is also a big 180 for me.
I think I got a grip of my emotions now. This weekend I GAL with kids. I spent time with kids before but nothing like this. All of them are attached to me especially s3. I see why my W complaint about me before, the time I was giving my kids were not enough. I really feel good about these changes in me, it's very rewarding that my kids are really looking up to me. I got to keep this everyday now I know what to do.
My next goal is to be a better husband. I will try to slowly get my W's emotions back. The last four days she's been voluntarily sharing her day to day work with me and I'm just been listening to her. There are few times I tried to give advise but I bit my tongue.
I get it, M is everyday commitment and I will work this one day at a time until the end.
Thanks for keeping me in-check 25, your posts really helped me see through things.
------------------------------------------------------------
Let me just add my journal today--we went to lunch and shop a little, my plans were to take the kids with me since W had plans to visit MIL. She ended up spending the entire day with us. I also encouraged her to go after we had lunch but she said she didn't feel like going to her mom anymore because of the drive and it's also getting late. I'm glad she did stay with us at least for the kids' sake, they were all happy at the end of the day. Good times!
Newman
Hi all,
I thought of posting what I'm feeling right now. Today is a possibility that W would have an EA. I didn't snoop on her just my suspicions today is great. There are some circumstances at her work that she don't have to be there but she still went.
I'm trying to be strong and to let this go but at the same time it keeps coming back and forth in my head. I want to keep on my DB tracks and thats why I'm posting to keep busy.
It's been positive the last few days. The other question I have is, should I check how she'd react if I try to hug her? It's almost a month now and no physical contact still sleeping in separate rooms. When do I ask w if we can sleep in same bed? It's been positive but feels like stuck in this sitch.
Do I keep waiting until she initiate everything? What if she's also waiting for me to make the move?
Looking forward for your comments/suggestions.
Newman
Journal:
Whew fighting these suspicions are tough! All day it just kept going back and forth in my head, the possibility of w to have an EA/PA. But I was able to shove it on the side and kept busy at work, talk to people, read up on sitchs here.
I got home then kept my 180s with the kids, s3 is super attached with me and he kept me busy. I also interacted with s13 and d17 briefly because they have lots of school work.
I heard my W talking with her cousin on the phone about her day and seem like she was really at work. Even if not, I can't control her if she choose to continue the EA that's on her, and I can have a choice not to be a part of that.
All is well, we communicate good now, everything seems good except no love. I got to keep patient I guess. It just feel like the sitch is now stuck, I guess this is how limbo feels like.
Still have this nagging question, what if she wants me to make a move, like big her or kiss her? I guess I could try but afraid of her rejection. I'm so confuse right now.
I also feel like asking her until when are we going to sleep in separate rooms?
I really miss her but it seem like she doesn't miss me at all. That thoughts hurt, especially after being together for 18yrs. O well I guess if there's no feelings and someone you know you can fall back on I guess that why she doesn't miss me.
Well today was good, I didn't interrogate her with questions in light of my suspicions. I cope how to put aside those suspicions. I guess I DB pretty good today.
Newman
well done! Keep it up!
Read the DB book (again if you already have, so it sinks in and reinforces in your head)
and really back off for now. Give her space.
Being the best dad you can be is a great endeavor b/c it's what is right for the kids, it occupies your mind AND
I think it's an emotional turn on at some level, for every mother. OM cannot compete with that.
But stop showing her your neediness. IT is not attractive.
What were you like when she fell in love with you? I bet more confident & fun and light hearted and strong. Be THAT man again.
Be interestING and interestED in the world around you, take a class or join something so you are less predictable.
GAL and involve new people so you are more occupied, more happy and a bit more mysterious...and stop obsessing.
It is so unproductive. Stay in the present so you don't keep looping around in your brain about what she MIGHT be doing or thinking or WHEN something is going to happen.
YOU WILL KNOW WHEN SHE WANTS YOU TO MAKE A MOVE, with her words or her actions...
Turns out all your worry today was for nothing b/c she WAS working, correct?
Learn a lesson from that...stay in the "now" and do your best to be the best man you can be.
Become that man and DB your butt off...then leave the results up to God.
well done! Keep it up!
Read the DB book (again if you already have, so it sinks in and reinforces in your head)
and really back off for now. Give her space.
Being the best dad you can be is a great endeavor b/c it's what is right for the kids, it occupies your mind AND
I think it's an emotional turn on at some level, for every mother. OM cannot compete with that.
But stop showing her your neediness. IT is not attractive.
What were you like when she fell in love with you? I bet more confident & fun and light hearted and strong. Be THAT man again.
Be interestING and interestED in the world around you, take a class or join something so you are less predictable.
GAL and involve new people so you are more occupied, more happy and a bit more mysterious...and stop obsessing.
It is so unproductive. Stay in the present so you don't keep looping around in your brain about what she MIGHT be doing or thinking or WHEN something is going to happen.
YOU WILL KNOW WHEN SHE WANTS YOU TO MAKE A MOVE, with her words or her actions...
Turns out all your worry today was for nothing b/c she WAS working, correct?
Learn a lesson from that...stay in the "now" and do your best to be the best man you can be.
Become that man and DB your butt off...then leave the results up to God.
Thanks 25! Yesterday was big for me. It did help to know she was really at work, I mean I still have my doubts but for me to put that on the side was an accomplishment. Well that's one day down, today is a new day. I'm getting better everyday.
Keep the positive environment. You are right I'm still obsessing I got to work on that.
I read DR, I have DB so maybe I'll read DB this time around.
GAL and meet new people, I was also thinking about that yesterday, I'll be on he lookout for that.
Kids are great, s3 played with me for 5 hrs last night and this morning first thing he told me "dad want to play again?". Broke my heart since I have to go to work. I just told him "when I get home buddy, I promise".
Newman
Newman,
Good job with spending time with your kids. I to have admitt I have the same questions about detaching and waiting to make that first move. You want to make that first move but scared to try b/c of the possible outcome. If you detach will that send a signal that you don't care about your S? Will H or W who are WAS position decide that moving out is what we want also b/c we have detached?? So many questions and emotions-DM
Desparate,
if you think pursuing a WAS who needs detaching, then read the DB book to "get" this concept down pat.
And learn to monitor for results, which always, ALWAYS take time.
Newman,
Good job with spending time with your kids. I to have admitt I have the same questions about detaching and waiting to make that first move. You want to make that first move but scared to try b/c of the possible outcome. If you detach will that send a signal that you don't care about your S? Will H or W who are WAS position decide that moving out is what we want also b/c we have detached?? So many questions and emotions-DM
Dman,
Thanks good to hear from you. You got to update us on your sitch.
I know what you mean about detaching. I think that's what it is to send them a signal, but not necessarily that you don't care but the signal to let them know you'll be alright with or without the WAS. And for them NOT to think that you don't care is by being polite and cordial. To me is to get them confuse that if one foot is out the door and they see you strong and withstanding the sitch, this will make them think twice leaving LBS. That's why I'm trying to be strong. It bugs the hell out of me that she's not wearing her ring, but in front of her I'm fine and had not mention about it since I did 2 weeks ago. So things like that IMO is detaching, you don't let their actions bring you down. The best way I'm practicing this is treating w like a co-worker.
I've been actually paying attention to myself lately, how I talk and interact with co workers and I apply the same to w. Theres a lot of respect but at the same time their actions doesnt affect me. After all she's the one that told me she only sees me as a friend and nothing else. So I'm respecting that and will treat her that until her feelings come back.
Anyway, I rather detach than be attach in this sitch, when you're attach you beg, pursue, say ILY. All those things didn't work, heck I hated myself doing that because all I received was cold shoulders and it hurt like hell. At one point I even cried and followed her like a puppy dog around the house. She would watch tv and I would be there in the room every commercial break I bring up sitch, I cuddle and beg her to cuddle me back--I was pathetic! I was suffocating her (don't worry guys this was last year). Yes I did all that because I was attached. That's when I decided something's gotta changed, I surf the net and I tumble across this forum and bought the DB books.
DM, I have the same fears as you such as what if WAS think we dont care about them or since we detach they need to move out, but to me I rather have those fears than lose self respect such as begging, pursung etc.
...I'm not saying I'm totally detach now but I'm definitely not that attach like I use to. I still need a lot of detaching though, because there are days that I react pretty bad. And that this sitch is far from being fix, and therefore W can potentially still can hurt my feelings.
Dang detaching is hard--lol.
Newman
One other thing, IMO the 180s will compliment detaching. So WAS feel you don't care anymore but at the same time you've changed for the bettet (doing 180s). So then not only you look strong (detached) and now you're also a better man (180s).
Then GAL helps to cope, since this is a long process. GAL will basically keep you busy from obsessing with the sitch and will keep your sanity.
So this is what I tell myself daily to cope, this is what I've learned so far from this forum and DB, I just got to put it into practice.
Newman
Newman
a lot that makes sense. Here's a short post on detachment, I find helpful. There are amny more around here.
"This was originally posted by Peanut.
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship. Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.
Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.
We can not control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
I like that post 25...copying that and save on my phone as notes.
Newman
But stop showing her your neediness. IT is not attractive
25yrsmlc, am I still showing neediness? I thought I haven't been needy for a while at least since the last time I meltdown about two weeks ago.
Thanks
Newman
I don't know if you are SHOWING it but you are radiating it here...it's safe to do that here --
but know that if you keep focussing on how much you miss her touch, and wish you could just reach out to her, and yada yada,
it might keep you stuck there in your unmet needs
AND That often shows.
I believe where the head goes, the heart will follow, if we let it.
KNOW your plan and why you are implementing it and then stick to it.
WHEN Will she believe in your changes?
small consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
You will backslide but the thing is to see it and learn from it and then get back on the horse so the backslides come less often and are smaller too...
If what you recall are good memories of close times, then trust that she'll eventually have those memories resurfacing in her heart too,
unless you chase them away by making her defend her choices.
Let her figure HER part out - while YOU do your own stuff.
Oh shoot good call. I was only radiating here, but unconsciously I was starting to focus on missing her, touching etc...& you're absolutely right it was starting to show. Last night while she was asleep I almost tried to cuddle with her because of these feelings. But I didn't.
I have to stray away from these feelings and focus on something else. I'm glad I ask because I wasn't seeing it coming. Thanks 25.
25, what do you think about my goal trying to win her emotions back? And my plan to get that goal is to have small talk with her about our kids and how her day at work, I believe this is how I can be close to her feelings again. Do you think this is being needy/pursuing? I'm watching it though, so far she seem receptive by me asking and she's actually volunteering to talk. But anything I'm missing here?
Newman
Journal:
Yesterday, like any other weekends started extra focus on 180s, GAL, & detachment. Weekends are normally tougher to focus on these things because I'm with w pretty much all day.
Yesterday sat (9/28) rode my bike in the morning. We then went to funeral service. At this service, I kept my 180s by being independent. I usually follow my W's lead in any gathering but this time I was a big boy. I didn't follow her around if I didn't like to. I don't know how to explain this but at one point s13 and I ended up in a good spot (sorry didn't mean to be insensitive abou the funeral) but a good spot where I can hear the grieving H's speech. Before you know it here comes my W standing next to me, in a few more occasions my w was following me around. I say this because I feel good and for once I can make my decision--maybe I'm finally detaching?
In the afternoon I got some tickets to watch a live show, again I didn't think W would go but I did ask her once if she wanted to go and she said yes, so we all went. The show was suited for kids even for s3's age. Kids had fun and W also enjoyed the show.
We went to dinner after that--a few observations from W, pretty much all day that I would noticed she would be blanked out then try to brush it off. I think what's happening is the withdrawal from OM. It sux but what can I do? Nothing right, so every time I noticed her like that I focused more on the kids and totally just ignored her swings (I just kept thinking Newman don't let this bring you down). We got home and had a positive day overall. No R talk, no pursuit, and I really tried to detach.
Today sun (9/30): another good day, nothing really extraordinary other than consistent 180s. It was FILs bday so we took him out to eat lunch. We had a good time, s3 pretty much kept me busy, this is actually the first time in a long time my W had a peaceful lunch since s3 was just all over me. Sometimes I feel bad that my w might feel left out because s3 kept looking for me. I think I have to watch this because I don't want my w to feel left out with the kids. Is there such a thing of overdoing my 180s wih the kids? But this is really what I feel, especially knowing that my future my mean I'll only see them 50% of the time...this 180 is sincere.
I'm trying to break that wall to get to my W's emotion back (one of my goals) I think I have the recipe to slowly chip that away (by keeping the light talks with W, her work, kids). Please point it out to me if this is some kind of pursuing.
I want to get some of her emotions back before OM tries to contact her. As far as i know, Its almost a month since the last contact with OM. if it is I suspect OM is getting desperate and will try to lure my w again. It is really up to her how she would handle this. I honestly feel that she would be a fool to choose OM. And I'm hoping some of our positives will be enough to deflect OMs advances.
Anyway,I feel better, I feel good, my kids reciprocate my love. In some ways I feel complete and of course the pain of the sitch is still there but neverthe less i feel better. I hope these feelings doesn't dip down, the good thing is that I have control to handle these feelings.
Oh one more thing, for the first time since the bomb, my w actually hit me on my shoulders while we attended back to school night at s13's school last week. I was kidding around with her didn't even remember what it was but out of her laughter she hit me...that remind me back in the days when we were dating. I think I can claim this as an action base on emotion. I'll take it as a small response from my work in a month lol. Geez one month, and a hit on the shoulders...there's a LOT of work to do. But it's ok as long as I see little improvements it's worth it.
Newman
I sent you a long post but my power outtage must have killed it.
I can recall saying this, What's the problem NOW? Your wife is trying, per YOU and you can see the efforts she is making. That's what YOU said.
She is doing no contact w/OM and SHE is making loving gestures.
So all that is missing is sex for a few weeks? Is that it?
Do you know how lonely your w has been in the marriage, for years?
Don't forget that. SHE has a lot of forgiving to do and I'm not sure she knows that yet. She probably has trouble expressing anger so she converts it into letting love die out...
So the problem seems to be, to me, your wounded ego and constant obsessing about OM, instead of working on you.
What self improvements are YOU working on?
Why not monitor YOUR OWN growth and ability to stay on target,
instead of what you get From her? What exactly are your 180s? Be specific.
The more specific you are the easier it;ll be for you to know if you are on target.
Journal:
Yesterday, like any other weekends started extra focus on 180s, GAL, & detachment. Weekends are normally tougher to focus on these things because I'm with w pretty much all day.
Why don't you GAL with a child of yours? Get away from w and give her a break and give her some space AND let her see your child return with a happy smile.
Yesterday sat (9/28) rode my bike in the morning. We then went to funeral service.
At this service, I kept my 180s by being independent.
I usually follow my W's lead in any gathering but this time I was a big boy. I didn't follow her around if I didn't like to.
this^^^ change is mandatory. The behavior you are describing puts your wife in a Parent mode and that's not healthy or attractive. So I'm glad you see this. Also, did your w need comforting at this funeral? IF SO, it'd be nice if she had a partner she could lean on, instead of another child to care for... I don't know how to explain this but at one point s13 and I ended up in a good spot (sorry didn't mean to be insensitive abou the funeral) but a good spot where I can hear the grieving H's speech. Before you know it here comes my W standing next to me, in a few more occasions my w was following me around. I say this
because I feel good and for once I can make my decision--maybe I'm finally detaching?
Maybe...or you are becoming more aware of how needy it is for you have her handling your social behaviors.
We went to dinner after that--a few observations from W, pretty much all day that I would noticed she would be blanked out then try to brush it off. I think what's happening is the withdrawal from OM. It sux but what can I do?
Stop mind reading. Really, just focus on YOUR WORK ON YOU b/c it's the only thing you can control and from your description, you have some work to do.
Today sun (9/30): another good day, nothing really extraordinary other than consistent 180s. It was FILs bday so we took him out to eat lunch. We had a good time, s3 pretty much kept me busy,
this is actually the first time in a long time my W had a peaceful lunch since s3 was just all over me. Sometimes I feel bad that my w might feel left out because s3 kept looking for me. I think I have to watch this because I don't want my w to feel left out with the kids. Is there such a thing of overdoing my 180s wih the kids?
NO there's not an overdoing being with your kids, in this^^^ context. Your wife got a break so she could have a nice lunch. That's a good thing, period.
Her feeling left out is NOT YOUR problem - AND it's your mind reading so it's likely not even true AND even if it were, so what?
You are doing way too much mind reading. Just stop it.
Focus on your work on you...I cannot stress that enough. YOU WASTE time and energy by not looking in the mirror for what to work on...
But this is really what I feel, especially knowing that my future my mean I'll only see them 50% of the time...this 180 is sincere.
Stop letting your fears and projections about tomorrow, decide your life's happiness TODAY.
You are creating a lot of the chaos in your life right now.
Your wife said she wants to make it work.
Your wife apologized for an EA/possible PA and has ended it.
Your wife has made several loving gestures to you.
YOU keep obesssing about OM and "what if?" and letting your wounded ego make YOU feel bad...and then staring at your w and mind reading, almost ALL of which is negative...
so, who is damaging the family NOW?
You are...
I think you telling her sibling about the EA was a huge mistake and it got you nowhere. In fact you're surprised they did not tell the rest of the family but to me
they're smart. They were able to see that the more people who know, the harder it is for your w to believe YOU can get past this. If you want to keep the road home, paved and smooth...then STHU.
Your inlaws may resent you for trying make her look bad and you must realize that making her look bad, OR TRYING TO,
does not make you look good. Don't forget, your d, and your inlaws witnessed the marriage and in some eyes, you don't look so great.
So keep the marital issues IN the marriage. Don't be the obstacle to reconciliation. Back off and show her loving detachment.
And you might even apologize for what your flaws are instead of harping on what SHE did and what SHE MIGHT do...
b/c if she doesn't think you can get past this, what's the point of her trying?
I'm trying to break that wall to get to my W's emotion back (one of my goals) I think I have the recipe to slowly chip that away (by keeping the light talks with W, her work, kids).
Please point it out to me if this is some kind of pursuing.
It's both pursuit and manipulation. Why not focus on how to be a better h and dad? Let her learn to relax around you and NOT with expectations on your end.
Build on the times where no conflict arises, then keep things warm and light. Then build on relaxing around each other. Rent comedies, or go to one. Who said you can't take her out to something as long as it's not overtly romantic?
Laugh together. It is a bonding experience and as long as you don't stare at her to take the R temperature, she can learn to have FUN with you around
and not think she has to be intimate later on.
Can you just give her love, and not feel (or show) disappointment when you don't get sex in return? Can you Focus on giving, without getting?
I want to get some of her emotions back before OM tries to contact her. As far as i know, Its almost a month since the last contact with OM. if it is I suspect OM is getting desperate and will try to lure my w again. It is really up to her how she would handle this. I honestly feel that she would be a fool to choose OM. And I'm hoping some of our positives will be enough to deflect OMs advances.
^^^this is all about you manipulating to control the outcome. ALL this energy could be spent on YOU building bonding experiences but instead you worry about the outcome...ie what you will get and when.
Do you understand what I mean here?
Ironically, you need to work on controlling how controlling you are. 
Anyway,I feel better, I feel good, my kids reciprocate my love.
In some ways I feel complete and of course the pain of the sitch is still there but neverthe less i feel better.
Why wouldn't you feel "Complete"? If you think you "need" your w to feel complete, you ought to discuss that with an IC.
There's no shame in that. But clearly your self esteem is far too attached to what you think she thinks...and that's giving someone else too much power AND it's also an abdication of your own responsibilities.
You control your happiness and you ought to be in charge of how you socially interact instead of hoping your w can lead you.
This is sexist but IMO, the truth is, few women want to parent their h's.
MOSTLY, We don't want to lead. We want to partner with our h's or be lead by them, although always lovingly.
I hope these feelings doesn't dip down, the good thing is that I have control to handle these feelings.
Yes you can control these feelings so you don't have to "hope" they don't dip down, etc. Take charge of your life and that will begin with emotional control of your own behavior.
Oh one more thing, for the first time since the bomb, my w actually hit me on my shoulders while we attended back to school night at s13's school last week. I was kidding around with her didn't even remember what it was but out of her laughter she hit me...that remind me back in the days when we were dating. I think I can claim this as an action base on emotion. I'll take it as a small response from my work in a month lol.
Geez one month, and a hit on the shoulders...there's a LOT of work to do. But it's ok as long as I see little improvements it's worth it.
Newman
How long do you think she felt alone in the m? How long were her needs unmet? I think you know It was more than one month.
And let me ask you this question...it's a tough one but really try to be honest...
are you sure you want to reconcile, or are you just not wanting to lose to OM?
I mean, let's be brutally honest for one minute.
You admit that your w DID tell you she was not happy many times. You did not change.
So, why did it take OM to get you to wake up and take it seriously
(AND play the victim??) Even now, I'm not sure what positive behaviors you are doing as a h to counter her negative images. I know you are now paying attention to the children more, but as a man, as a partner , how are you showing her that marriage to you can be better and different?
IOW
Do you want HER back or do you just want to "win"?
here is a post from a WAW who had an LBSer h, and that h felt he had made changes
that were sufficient for his WAW to return...here's what that WAW said...
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M.
I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
__________
25 thanks for the time keeping me in check, here are my responses:
Journal:
Yesterday, like any other weekends started extra focus on 180s, GAL, & detachment. Weekends are normally tougher to focus on these things because I'm with w pretty much all day.
Why don't you GAL with a child of yours? Get away from w and give her a break and give her some space AND let her see your child return with a happy smile.
That was my original plan, but thought I'd be cordial to W and invite her where she said yes. I'm really ok if she doesn't go but it did felt good that she was with us.Yesterday sat (9/28) rode my bike in the morning. We then went to funeral service.
At this service, I kept my 180s by being independent.
I usually follow my W's lead in any gathering but this time I was a big boy. I didn't follow her around if I didn't like to.
this^^^ change is mandatory. The behavior you are describing puts your wife in a Parent mode and that's not healthy or attractive. So I'm glad you see this. Also, did your w need comforting at this funeral? IF SO, it'd be nice if she had a partner she could lean on, instead of another child to care for...Yes I thought about putting my arms around her but I didn't want her to feel awkward. She doesn't want me to touch her at all...she recoils. In the same feeling i didn't want to feel rejected. I don't know how to explain this but at one point s13 and I ended up in a good spot (sorry didn't mean to be insensitive abou the funeral) but a good spot where I can hear the grieving H's speech. Before you know it here comes my W standing next to me, in a few more occasions my w was following me around. I say this
because I feel good and for once I can make my decision--maybe I'm finally detaching?
Maybe...or you are becoming more aware of how needy it is for you have her handling your social behaviors. Well I really felt independent more than needy, in the past I really dependent on her. More like complacency. But these days I'm starting to feel more of an individual rather than always counting on her.We went to dinner after that--a few observations from W, pretty much all day that I would noticed she would be blanked out then try to brush it off. I think what's happening is the withdrawal from OM. It sux but what can I do? [/s]
Stop mind reading. Really, just focus on YOUR WORK ON YOU b/c it's the only thing you can control and from your description, you have some work to do.
Crap I fell for mindreading you're right...Today sun (9/30): another good day, nothing really extraordinary other than consistent 180s. It was FILs bday so we took him out to eat lunch. We had a good time, s3 pretty much kept me busy,
this is actually the first time in a long time my W had a peaceful lunch since s3 was just all over me. Sometimes I feel bad that my w might feel left out because s3 kept looking for me. I think I have to watch this because I don't want my w to feel left out with the kids. Is there such a thing of overdoing my 180s wih the kids?
NO there's not an overdoing being with your kids, in this^^^ context. Your wife got a break so she could have a nice lunch. That's a good thing, period.
Her feeling left out is NOT YOUR problem - AND it's your mind reading so it's likely not even true AND even if it were, so what?
You are doing way too much mind reading. Just stop it.
Focus on your work on you...I cannot stress that enough. YOU WASTE time and energy by not looking in the mirror for what to work on...
But this is really what I feel, especially knowing that my future my mean I'll only see them 50% of the time...this 180 is sincere.
Stop letting your fears and projections about tomorrow, decide your life's happiness TODAY.Yep definitely fears of the unknown for sure and TODAY will be my focus...I keep anticipating tomorrow.You are creating a lot of the chaos in your life right now.
Well my life is chaotic already anyway, but you're right I'm creating extra waves.Your wife said she wants to make it work.
She is trying I see it and really appreciate her doing so.Your wife apologized for an EA/possible PA and has ended it.
I just have trust issues on this that I got to work on. She said these lines before last year and this year too. 25 she breach my trust. Does the LBS eff'd up so bad that he's NOT entitled to have TRUST issues? Like any hurt feelings, we have to get over this and will take time. I choose to forgive and it's taking me some time to trust her again but it's coming back i feel it.Your wife has made several loving gestures to you.
YOU keep obesssing about OM and "what if?" and letting your wounded ego make YOU feel bad...and then staring at your w and mind reading, almost ALL of which is negative...
so, who is damaging the family NOW?
You are...
I think you telling her sibling about the EA was a huge mistake and it got you nowhere. In fact you're surprised they did not tell the rest of the family but to me
they're smart. They were able to see that the more people who know, the harder it is for your w to believe YOU can get past this. If you want to
keep the road home, paved and smooth...then STHU.
Your inlaws may resent you for trying make her look bad and you must realize that making her look bad, OR TRYING TO,
does not make you look good. Don't forget, your d, and your inlaws witnessed the marriage and in some eyes, you don't look so great.
So keep the marital issues IN the marriage. Don't be the obstacle to reconciliation. Back off and show her loving detachment.
I don't tell anyone and not planning on telling anyone else. I do regret telling my mom and sister, it was a reaction that i didn't think through. I know deep down they don't want me to get hurt. I don't even mention the sitch to them and my SIL. Because I know what will help me is the neutral party. This community.And you might even apologize for what your flaws are instead of harping on what SHE did and what SHE MIGHT do...
b/c if she doesn't think you can get past this, what's the point of her trying?
This is true, she told me this and concern that I wouldn't let this go. I'm working on it. I backslid big time after the second EA contact.[/color]
I'm trying to break that wall to get to my W's emotion back (one of my goals) I think I have the recipe to slowly chip that away (by keeping the light talks with W, her work, kids).
Please point it out to me if this is some kind of pursuing.
It's both pursuit and manipulation. Why not focus on how to be a better h and dad? Let her learn to relax around you and NOT with expectations on your end. Ok I thought this would be a good goal. I'm trying to give her what OM gave her an emotional support. I thought this would be ok. I can be a good dad, and proving that now I'm confident about it. But a good H, I don't know anymore. I thought I was doing good but from your observations I haven't done anything good as a H. I'm confused, what can I do? I'm giving her space like she'd asked me too, I'm not touching her per her wishes, I'm helping in the house, I'm helping with the kids, I'm more independent etc. The other thing that I know a H would do is to display affection, love, going out, sleeping in the same bed but I can't do these things right now because of the sitch. What else can I do? Build on the times where no conflict arises, then keep things warm and light. Then build on relaxing around each other. Rent comedies, or go to one. Who said you can't take her out to something
as long as it's not overtly romantic?
Ok ^^^this is what I've been trying to do the laughter and no conflicts except to going out. She won't go out with me unless the kids are there. She doesn't want anything to do with me solo. Laugh together. It is a bonding experience and as long as you don't stare at her to take the R temperature, she can learn to have FUN with you around
and not think she has to be intimate later on.
Can you just give her love, and not feel (or show) disappointment when you don't get sex in return? Can you Focus on giving, without getting?
[/color]
I want to get some of her emotions back before OM tries to contact her. As far as i know, Its almost a month since the last contact with OM. if it is I suspect OM is getting desperate and will try to lure my w again. It is really up to her how she would handle this. I honestly feel that she would be a fool to choose OM. And I'm hoping some of our positives will be enough to deflect OMs advances.
^^^this is all about you manipulating to control the outcome. ALL this energy could be spent on YOU building bonding experiences but instead you worry about the outcome...ie what you will get and when.
Do you understand what I mean here?
Ironically, you need to work on controlling how controlling you are.
Anyway,I feel better, I feel good, my kids reciprocate my love.
In some ways I feel complete and of course the pain of the sitch is still there but neverthe less i feel better.
Why wouldn't you feel "Complete"? If you think you "need" your w to feel complete, you ought to discuss that with an IC.
[color:#333399]
[color:#333399]What I meant about not feeling complete is my W's love is missing. It left me a gaping hole in my heart. It's just it I feel something is missing. 18yrs and all of a sudden that person is not the same...that's what I mean. Yes I'll bring it up to my IC.[/color]
There's no shame in that. But clearly your self esteem is far too attached to what you think she thinks...and that's giving someone else too much power AND it's also an abdication of your own responsibilities.
You control your happiness and you ought to be in charge of how you socially interact instead of hoping your w can lead you.
Complacency in gatherings and lazyness on my part. I just settled at my W to do all the talking. I am working on this. I'm an individual, I can't explain it. At work, since my W is not there I interact I have no choice. I'm an individual if that make sense.
This is sexist but IMO, the truth is, few women want to parent their h's.
MOSTLY, We don't want to lead. We want to partner with our h's or be lead by them, although always lovingly.[/color]
I hope these feelings doesn't dip down, the good thing is that I have control to handle these feelings.
Yes you can control these feelings so you don't have to "hope" they don't dip down, etc. Take charge of your life and that will begin with emotional control of your own behavior.
Oh one more thing, for the first time since the bomb, my w actually hit me on my shoulders while we attended back to school night at s13's school last week. I was kidding around with her didn't even remember what it was but out of her laughter she hit me...that remind me back in the days when we were dating. I think I can claim this as an action base on emotion. I'll take it as a small response from my work in a month lol.
Geez one month, and a hit on the shoulders...there's a LOT of work to do. But it's ok as long as I see little improvements it's worth it.
Newman
How long do you think she felt alone in the m? How long were her needs unmet? I think you know It was more than one month.
And let me ask you this question...it's a tough one but really try to be honest...
are you sure you want to reconcile, or are you just not wanting to lose to OM?
I want to reconcile 25, I really do. Thats why I'm here and don't need any more effs up, I need help I recognize that. It's been mentioned here on the boards it's mR will not go nowhere if the OP is in the relationship and to cut all contacts with OP and I believe that. I just want to work my R with my W without OM's influence is that too hard to ask? Honestly it's not about OM winning or me winning. I just want that chance with my W. I know I eff'd up big time in the past I can't get that back and fix, but I just want a chance and if my W still feels she can not be with me, I will respect that and will move on.I mean, let's be brutally honest for one minute.
You admit that your w DID tell you she was not happy many times. You did not change.
So, why did it take OM to get you to wake up and take it seriously
Because I was an idiot. I didn't pay attention to my W's complaint. I settled, I was comfortable, I was lazy...If only I can turn back the clock I would. I understand these changes might be too late, and I get that. But hopefully she will believe me that I will NOT go back to my old ways. It is a wake up call afterall.(AND play the victim??) Even now, I'm not sure what positive behaviors you are doing as a h to counter her negative images. I know you are now paying attention to the children more, but as a man, as a partner , how are you showing her that marriage to you can be better and different?
Yes the victim card, I got to change this. Again this is where I get confused. I thought I was doing good giving her space, no pressure, no pursuit, no Ily's, no touching etc...The hugs, cuddling, kisses, affection these things I can't do right now. I mentioned some 180s...what else can I do? Help me out.IOW
Do you want HER back or do you just want to "win"?
I want her back I truly do. I miss her more than anything. This is why I'm here to do it the right way. I couldn't do it myself, I did all the wrong things.
I know I messed up in my M, she did too it's really both of us. Ok she was more unhappy than i was. I thought we have a good M that had that normal ups and downs just like everyone else.
There are times I felt unhappy, like I felt I wasn't her priority or I felt lonely but I didn't got tangled with OP. That was her decision. I know we are different, she needed to fulfill her needs emotionally.
Perhaps it is part of my upbringing that an A is a dealbreaker. But my mentality has changed, I have kids that will get affected by a D. So even though I got hurt by her actions I chose to forgive. Just like you said, where the "head goes the heart will follow." That's what I'm doing for forgiveness. But just like the consistent changes that the LBS' do, forgiveness also take time.
I realize I have to forgive to really save my M. I've got a lot of valuable information in this site and in the last 18 months of this ordeal I really got tested and I grew and learn a lot about myself. I still have the old habits such as the anger, controlling, and insecurities to work on.
25 thanks for taking the time with me. I hope you keep me in check. I really read your post carefully and after reading and reading and reading them, the more I feel patient with my wife.
We both have to forgive I hope she finds it in her heart to forgive me as well as herself.
Newman
I sent you a long post but my power outtage must have killed it.
I can recall saying this, What's the problem NOW? Your wife is trying, per YOU and you can see the efforts she is making. That's what YOU said.
She is doing no contact w/OM and SHE is making loving gestures.
So all that is missing is sex for a few weeks? Is that it?
No not just the sex, the whole her is missing her affections, love, and the person I've been accustomed to all 18yrs of my life.
Do you know how lonely your w has been in the marriage, for years?
Don't forget that. SHE has a lot of forgiving to do and I'm not sure she knows that yet. She probably has trouble expressing anger so she converts it into letting love die out...
Yes she gave up on the fights so did I. When I say fights little arguments really silly arguments that adds up through the years. She didn't confront this anymore and I think you're right she let that love die...her love for me died, those are her words.
So the problem seems to be, to me, your wounded ego and constant obsessing about OM, instead of working on you.
It's not my ego, I'm just hurt about the sitch. Why the assumption its my ego? If someone betrayed your trust and your marriage vows it hurts, there's just no way around it. These are the foundations of a M trust and love both are in turmoil right now for us. It's mostly my fears and anticipation. Because I know that if she remains in contact with OM I will not stay in the M, that's my choice. I cannot control her not to see or talk to him but I have a choice to react, and my reaction would be to get myself out of the M. But yes you are right I'm anticipating a lot, I'll try not to nd cross that bridge when that happens.
What self improvements are YOU working on?
Well for starters I'm doing a lot of 180s and been thinking about 180s every time I interact with wife and kids. I've been respectful, helping around the house, I'm exercising, I have control my anger so fa there's more work to do but I think I've done decent job so far.
Why not monitor YOUR OWN growth and ability to stay on target,
instead of what you get From her? What exactly are your 180s? Be specific.
I have by journaling my progress. I've been busier more than anything thanks to this site, it's really taking my mind off things. Yes you're right Im still expecting something back from her.
The more specific you are the easier it;ll be for you to know if you are on target.
Journal:
Last night was stressful and W was really cold to me. Yep, once again the reality of life has thrown a wrench. We are stress about d17's college apps and deadlines.
I tried to be involve so I help d17 organizing deadlines and such. This seemed to annoy w. Her complaint before " I was never involve" now that I'm trying to get involve and is still not enough. Everything i do it's not right and I'm always the bad guy to her.
The worry of course are the finances, requirements and deadlines. I'm organized, my w isn't. D17 and I finally got the deadlines straight away and established some kind of a plan.
My w is stress rightfully so and so am I. I'm coping with it the best of my ability by exercising, and focusing on deadlines and not mope about it.
I say this to vent, this is the kind of stressors that put pressure in the R. This is the stuff that went on my M. I tried to give w a hug since I notice she was really stress but she pushed me away. I understand and left, of course I was hurt but I just tried to move on from it.
I don't know maybe this R is doomed. Right now there's really no R between us were just room mates. O well life goes on.
This morning I was going to put my ring on, but I thought not and didn't wear it. She hasn't been wearing hers either.
Newman
I'll think about it some more Newman. I'm not ignoring you.
But some things she does are not consistent with saying she wants to try.
which would confuse anyone, including you.
So let me ponder some more. But tell me this, what does SHE SAY she wants, NOW?
what does she mean when she says "She is trying" and what do YOU mean when you say she is?
I'll think about it some more Newman. I'm not ignoring you.
But some things she does are not consistent with saying she wants to try.
which would confuse anyone, including you.
So let me ponder some more. But tell me this, what does SHE SAY she wants, NOW?
what does she mean when she says "She is trying" and what do YOU mean when you say she is?
25,
What she meant by "trying" is trying not to have anything to do with OM and that shes trying to get those feelings back you know the "in-love" feelings for me. When we talked R~4mos ago, she wanted to do those things back to me the kiss, affection etc...but she say she doesn't feel like it so why would she do it.
That's my argument to her before, that your not really trying because she's not initiating anything with me it's just me.
After the INILWY bomb, I begged her to try and we did dates once a month. We did for few months and she never got those feelings. But hats because she was entertaining OM.
What I did notice, is if my 6th sense is correct that when they W and OM were talking, she was really cold to me. OM really brainwashed her, heck my W did not just 180 but 360 in her thinking, and she's seem rebelling on "marriage" in general, that no one should be stuck in a M. Even her sister told me she's acting like the teenager more than D17...I never told her this, but you see the poison the OM is feeding her?
I know mind-reading but, I think sometimes we need to analyze the sitch. Anyway, going back to her complaints. It is clear to me now that anything I do doesn't matter, she told me so in one of those dates we did 4 mos ago, that if I would've done these changes a year before then maybe there was a chance--wtf is that mean, well that's the timeline before the OM. It is simply put "a little too late".
So guess what, I'm still doing these complaints even though it doesnt matter to her because these are what I recognize I've become. Especially with my kids, so I change not for her but for me and the kids. My problem is that I started to expect results, hope for R with W.
So do you see, i think I radiated my expectations here and I threw you off.
Heres some more of my analysis of he sitch, she told me that she can't commit and that even though we D, she's not gonna be with OM, partly I believe that because I don't think she will want to be far away from her kids OM lives far.
But I think what she wants in her life is the single life, independence and free to do whatever, and if she chooses to be with OM for the weekend she can do it. That's the bottom line I think she wants. They really feel like they were the true love that was stopped by moving separate ways when they were kids.
I really think she put a timeline in our R, I think she's "trying" so that she can tell everyone that she tried and her feelings never came back. So you see this is why I feel it doesn't matter what I do. It's really for me.
The only hope I have is the hope that phrase in here "believe half of what WAS would say".
I will cross the bridge when I get there, I know there's a fork in the road. But I think her timeline is 6 months from now. Either ways I'm ready reconciliation or D, I will be a better man then. I'm still shooting for miracles in that 6 months.
newman
So 25 sorry for that long post, but I think that will explain her annoyance to me helping the kids or anything I do for that matter and that why I think maybe I'm over doing it???
So 25 sorry for that long post, but I think that will explain her annoyance to me helping the kids or anything I do for that matter and that why I think maybe I'm over doing it???
I don't know what you mean by overdoing it, vis a vis the kids. Be with them as much as possible, WHILE ALSO GAL...
and you have not been GAL nearly enough. If your w feared losing you for real, who knows what might happen?
She has it both ways now, the kid's hugs, and the provider keeping a roof over their head
AND the romantic fantasy w/OM, that I happen to believe would end if they were to explore it more...but I'm not saying to wait for that. Just saying I don't believe those fantasy relationships solve the problems that life handed two families.
Both your families (OMs and yours) have normal problems and r issues.
You both also have Some harder issues that come from some flaws you both have that hinder effective communication, you both mind read and make the worst assumptions of each other. AND imo, Neither of you knows how to forgive either.
So do your work for you on those^^^ issues b/c you need to do that to have a happy healthy r with any woman.
But hey, those two (OM and your w) being together is not a long term deal, and pragmatically you already know that. Heck, even SHE knows that.
Sometimes I wonder...
I MIGHT back off and let her contact OM if she's so convinced he's the right man for her.
(But If I were you, I'd FIRST see a L and make plans for a legal separation too...)
OR If you can't handle that^^^, and I don't know that you can, you MIGHT keep the NC rule for OM and
GAL as if your w is a roomate and make plans for going OUT
and she can sit one night and you can another night or get a sitter for your night out and take two some weekends...be mysterious.
In short, Take your power back. Not with temper tantrums, but with the calm certainty that you are a good catch, b/c you get it now.
You are not the same man you were before. You've had "an awakening" and are a great h and dad now, and that it's her loss more than yours.
But you need to believe this for it to work. Make sense?
25,
Really appreciate your guidance on all this. That part where you said "hinder effective communication", thats also what SIL told us. She's a therapist, thats why I told her the EA. This is spot on, I think I need to give you more background starting year 1 of 18--lol j/k, just on the shift of the R, April 2011. Anyway, I'll touch base more on this after work, don't have much time this morning.
I think it's time for new thread. Looks like people are just cutting and pasting the URL in the new thread?
Newman