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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2266884&page=1First, thanks to everyone who's been helping out and commenting on my sitch thus far. It's greatly appreciated.
I don't have TOO much to update as of right now... just my normal, run of the mill type stuff...
W texted me yesterday telling me she hoped I was safe and dry with the "kids" while the hurricane went overhead. As seemingly impossible as it was, I did not respond to that text (as it had no questions)...
I DO feel I'm being a bit rude by not responding to the last two texts she's sent, but again, neither had questions or a pressing need to respond... They were both simply well-wishing texts... Which I very much wanted to respond to, but decided against it for... not even sure the actual reason.
A good mutual friend (of W and I) also reached out to me this weekend with a very sweet email about how saddened she is over the sitch. She said that W emailed her months ago about our Separation, and it took her this long to respond because she was literally so shocked and didn't want to reach out to W in a judgmental way, so had to cool down before reaching out. She said she'd be praying for me and for us, told me that she was so shocked because she and everyone we knew constantly remarked on how much love I poured into the relationship and what a "Great Guy" I am, and they're just stupefied that it got to this.
It was nice to hear from her, and I always appreciate the ego-strokes, but I hesitate to respond with too much information. I know that she's "on my side" but I also know she cares deeply for W, so I'm planning on thanking her for the email and prayers, filling her in on the non-relationship aspects of my life and leaving it at that... no matter how badly I want to pour my heart out to her about my sitch (as I KNOW she'd be an amazing listener and give strong advice)...
A good mutual friend (of W and I) also reached out to me this weekend with a very sweet email about how saddened she is over the sitch. She said that W emailed her months ago about our Separation, and it took her this long to respond because she was literally so shocked and didn't want to reach out to W in a judgmental way, so had to cool down before reaching out. She said she'd be praying for me and for us, told me that she was so shocked because she and everyone we knew constantly remarked on how much love I poured into the relationship and what a "Great Guy" I am, and they're just stupefied that it got to this.
It was nice to hear from her, and I always appreciate the ego-strokes, but I hesitate to respond with too much information. I know that she's "on my side" but I also know she cares deeply for W, so I'm planning on thanking her for the email and prayers, filling her in on the non-relationship aspects of my life and leaving it at that... no matter how badly I want to pour my heart out to her about my sitch (as I KNOW she'd be an amazing listener and give strong advice)...
I think that's wise. Either she'll just report back to your W, or she's interested in you. Either way, no good can come of it.
Starsky
I agree with Starsky! A quick response of gratitude thanking her for her concern will be more than sufficient...Last thing you want is dust being stirred up, which in turn could cause a severe storm.
Thanks guys... Yeah, kept it short and cordial.
Journaling:
Hurricane Issac came and went without much incident here in South Florida. Heavy rain all night and a couple hours of wind gusts, but nothing to write home about.
Still struggling with the fact that I haven't responded to W's last two texts... but I know I have to get used to this, as the stand I'm about to take will require all of my strength in the "lack of communication" department.
Woke up this morning with the overwhelming desire to hug W and hold her close... I guess I had another dream about her last night... Hugged the puppy instead...
Now I'd better head off to work.
Alk,
I don't think there's anything wrong with responding if she inquries about you and the kids' safety during the storm. "We'll be fine; thanks -- just some wind and rain" or something short and similar.
Starsky
Just to be clear, the "kids" are a puppy and a kitty...
Just to be clear, the "kids" are a puppy and a kitty...
LOL -- yeah, I realized that before I hit "send." Can't edit on here!
So I just replied to her anyway, saying all is well down here now and mirroring that its now her turn to stay dry.
Premonition time:
So I have a sneaking suspicion, and I have nothing to back this up with, that W will be calling tonight.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that if I pick up the phone, that I'll be diving into the conversation that I'm dreading having...
Probably won't pick up!
Damn, looks like my premonition was right! W texted me about an hour ago asking if I had a minute to talk tonight. As I'm working late and have an 8:00 pm conference call, I told her that and asked if everything was okay.
She responded "Not Really, but I'll figure it out. We can talk another time"
I responded back that I could call her after my 8:00 and asked what was up...
She responded "We can talk about it later. Text me after your call"
So I'll be texting after my call... This sounds awfully ominous... Stay tuned for details!
Very nervous...
Hey Alka,
Don't get all worked up over that. Think positive and stop predicting the worst. No matter what, you've got time and you've spent a lot of it here learning about how to behave in any situation. Keep calm and if you're not sure on how to answer something, don't. Tell her you need to think about it. Most importantly, stay calm, now, during the call and after the call.
Write yourself a list of things to remember during the call.
- Listen to her
- Validate
- Don't judge
- Don't go on the defensive
- (insert next item here)
As you talk to her, read that list and remind yourself what you have to do.
It'll all be fine mate!
Cheers!
Thank you so much Arsene!
I've written down these goals and a couple more (Ask for time to think if I can't answer. Keep it light if possible, DON'T ARGUE, Keep the focus on HER, Keep the conversation in the present and future, meaning NO R TALK)
I'll update ASAP.
Definitely spend more time listening & validating, than responding! Just my opinion, but I would wait a bit after your conference call before you respond or call. This way it doesn't seem like you are dropping straight off your work call & getting back to her immediately.
You are correct, Absolutely NOOOO R talk!!
Remember the fine art of "I'm not sure HOW I feel about that; I'll get back to you" and L
"I'm afraid it's not that easy anymore," and "it sounds like we both have some decisions to make." Vague, value-neutral, yet STRONG.
Thanks for the last minute pep-talk Starsky! She'll be calling any minute now, and needed to read that!
What I'm about to write should shock no one: I totally overreacted to tonight's call.
She ended up chatting about mundane stuff... A situation with her and her sister, her job search, and the pending divorce of her best friend...
I WAS able to check off 100% of my "goals" for the conversation... Didn't interrupt, no R talk, no judgement, no reactions, no getting upset, no crying...
However, I couldn't bring myself to bring up the point of conversation I've been chatting about on these boards... but I had a couple drinks before I picked up her call... So I didn't feel like it would be the best time... plus I'm not sure i'm mentally ready to deal with that at the moment... but after tonight's call... I KNOW I need to get there.
I can't keep being "here" for her... to let her unload her heavy, deep personal problems on me while I sit here... knowing she's with OM, getting 50% of her "needs" met and calling me for the other 50%...
Maybe I'm stupid for not bringing it up tonight... And maybe I'm stupid for wanting to reach out to her best-friend (who's H has claimed he wants a D now) to help support her... I mean I love the girl too.. but I'm not sure reaching out to her is the best idea, except that I'd love to introduce her to the DB/DR community as I KNOW she doesn't want the D with her her H and I feel like I could help her... But...
Need to sleep this off... Too much whiskey will do this to a man...
Remember the fine art of "I'm not sure HOW I feel about that; I'll get back to you" and L
"I'm afraid it's not that easy anymore," and "it sounds like we both have some decisions to make." Vague, value-neutral, yet STRONG.
I love these. I'll be sure to add them to my repertoire. Thanks Starsky!
Well, I'm glad it went well mate and that it wasn't what you expected. That'll teach us all a lesson, for sure. We got to stop imagining the worst and just deal with (real) things as they occur.
Have a good night mate, sleep well. I'm sure you need it.
Update time!
Well as I alluded to in my last, whiskey soaked post, last night's call was not at all what I feared it would be... and I must say I'm 95% proud of myself for how I handled the entirety of the call.
Because of my inebriated state, I'm glad I didn't try to get into "the talk" last night, and now, sitting in the wake of yet another pleasant conversation, I can begin to focus on an action plan.
I don't think going into much more detail than I did above will do much good here, as I hit all the major points there. But I do want to mention that as the conversation started to die down and I began getting off the phone, I heard her start to cry and get generally quite upset. Normally, this sends me right into "What's Wrong. How can I help." mode and before I know it, I'm prying information out of her like I'm pulling teeth...
This time though, I simply stated "It was nice talking to you W. Everything okay?" knowing she'd reply "I'll always be okay" as she always does the first time I ask. She did, and I left it at that, telling her goodnight.
I woke up this morning to another email from W, with another song attached, telling me that in the midst of her "negative ranting" last night, she'd forgot to tell me she was going to see this band and that she's sure that she'd have a ton of emotions going on in her brain and her heart... but she knows she'll "be okay. Always have been, always will be". She ended with "take this as you will, and interpret the he/she lyrics as you see fit". The song is called "Breakeven" by the Script.
Might start a new thread to play the interpretation game, just for fun.
I haven't responded to the email, and I'm not sure I will. There are just too many ways to interpret the song, ranging wildly from hopeful to destructive... And I'm not dying to go down that road via email with her... I wonder if I should wait and respond that there are too many ways to interpret the song...
Have to run to a meeting. More later.
Update time!
Well as I alluded to in my last, whiskey soaked post, last night's call was not at all what I feared it would be...
OK, so let me get this straight, Alk. You had a premonition yesterday afternoon that your wife may want to have an important conversation with you last night . . . she in fact confirmed late-afternoon that she did, in fact want to talk to you . . .
And you prepared for this talk by getting drunk? 
NOT advisable. Look, I'm no prude, and I love good wine myself, but when I'm in a war for my family, and I know a battle may be coming tonite, I AIN'T drinkin'!!!!
If you feel the need to escape your problems for a night, I strongly advise you leave your phone with a trusted confidant.
Starsky
Or did you get inebriated AFTER the call was over?
Lol Starsky! Should have been more clear... It was post-call that inebriation took effect! After we'd chatted for about half an hour and I knew the direction and tone of the conversation, I poured myself a drink. Didn't get to "tipsy" until after I'd hung up the phone and started journaling.
I know myself well enough to know that alcohol + long talks with W = a bad end to the conversation. So my preparation for the call involved writing out a list of reminders (alluded to in an earlier post) and preparing to gauge the temperature of the call and my readiness to bring up the "OM Talk"...
Clearly I wasn't ready last night, as I was a bundle of nerves before she called... once I felt the conversation was going in a "normal" direction, and I heard the sadness creeping into her voice toward the end, I decided to put off the conversation for another time... Plus, I'd like to be the one to initiate that talk, not wait for her to have to contact me for something else...
I DO appreciate you looking out for me, and would certainly accept the 2x4 had I decided alcohol was a good way to help me deal with a potentially life-changing conversation!
Veddy goot b
Look, I'm no prude, and I love good wine myself, but when I'm in a war for my family, and I know a battle may be coming tonite, I AIN'T drinkin'!!!!
If you feel the need to escape your problems for a night, I strongly advise you leave your phone with a trusted confidant.
Starsky
I'd have to agree with that mate! Not a good idea. You handled this call well but it was THE call. What if it had been?
So since last night's call, W has reached out to me twice thus far... Once with the email I mentioned on a previous page, and once to let me know she's changed her address with the post office and is planning on making the trip down to pack up the rest of her stuff sometime in September... She says she'll keep me informed so I can "make my plans or whatever"...
I told her before that I wasn't sure that I'd be here when she decides to come down, but now I'm certainly leaning toward being here so I can talk to her in person about this situation... Not sure if waiting anywhere from two to four weeks will work, but it sounds okay for now...
More later.
Journaling: And a warning that today's not a particularly good day mentally for me... You know, roller coaster and all...
Today, the hole in my heart is more recognizable than usual. I woke up this morning acutely aware of how empty the house is these days and how powerless I am to change the situation.
The more resolute I become about telling W that I can't be in her life as a friend or husband so long as OM is in the picture, the more fear creeps into my head. Fear that it'll be the final straw, that it'll be the last conversation we have before papers are served, or fear of the sense of relief I may feel from her end that she can finally end the charade and stop sparing my feelings...
But at the same time, (and this is where it gets annoying) I know that the vast majority of today's feelings of malaise stem from the conversation we had earlier this week, the email she sent with lyrics to yet another song, and the text she sent telling me she'd finally changed her address at the post office... These things just keep reminding me that she's gone, probably spending time with an OM, and I'm back here... available whenever she needs it...
I KNOW I can't keep this up. It's not good for me mentally. Every time I feel like I'm making good detachment progress, that my GAL is helping me to grow... We have a conversation and I slide back into this sadness for a few days again...
I know that telling her I can't continue along this path won't be a cure-all to these things... But I'm hopeful it will help... And I'm terrified it won't.
So in the hour since I wrote my last post, I've thought about/realized a few things:
1. Journaling really helps my mental state.
2. Sometimes, I need to really work much harder on keeping a PMA. Its all a matter of perspective... I can just as easily focus on the "negative" things, the "what ifs" and the "why nots". But it takes the exact same amount of effort to focus on the positive things... Even the same thing can be looked at in a different light... rather than focusing on the "woe is me" stuff about W and I's last conversation, the email and the texts, I could just as easily focus on the fact that, at least in some small way, she is still invested in "us"... reaching out to fill me in on her ups and downs, sharing song lyrics and keeping me updated on her "goings on". Does this change the situation at all or my plan of action? No, but it can certainly help me keep a positive mental attitude.
3. It's this exact type of situation that drove W crazy about me... how I'll get overly "emotional" and kinda spin out of control for a while, then a short time later, I'm back in a different mindset... I guess a good 180 to work on is to continue along THIS path instead: Rather than voice these concerns and over-emotional moments to the world at large, I can simply journal them out... share with a group of friends or whatever... then let the details soak in for a bit before reacting.
4. I haven't been to the gym since Sunday, and have over the last two weeks been much too lax about getting up in the morning and hitting the gym before work. I spent about 12 weeks going 5-6 days a week, but over the last couple weeks I'm more in the 2-3 range. I need to get back to the healthy (physically and mentally) routine that I'd followed previously and break out of this "extra hour of sleep" pattern I've developed lately. Can't let all this hard work go to waste! As a matter of fact, I'll be hitting the gym on the way home tonight... That'll help the ol' mental state for sure!
Sorry about the Jekyll and Hyde stuff!
But it feels nice to vent these blue feelings rather than let them simmer.
Alk,
I'm sorry it's a hard day for you. I do understand the thoughts and feelings you are experiencing right now, I really do. I had many of them myself.
Just remember, introspection is GOOD; navel-gazing . . . ehhh, not so much. Try to balance this period in your life with 1 part introspection, 2 parts action, until you become more action-oriented and less melancholy.
It's funny, after all these years here I can begin to spot the profile of the successful DB'er. Those that have zero ability at ANY kind of introspection, learning how to realisticallya assess their relationship shortcomings and working on a plan to overcome them, inevitably fail.
But so too do the navel-gazers -- those that are still here, months and even YEARS later, thread after thread, post after post . . . so many words. At some point, you have to take what you learn in your moments of quiet introspection and turn them into ACTION PLANS, and begin the hard slog of executing those plans, step after step after step.
Make sense???
Starsky
btw, I'm not saying this is YOU. You are still "freshly bombed," having only been here about a month. I'm just sharing what my observation has been about how the most successful people balance the two things.
Hey Alk. Just want to stop by and say hello. Don't have a lot of advice for you for now. At least not anything different than what Starsky has been telling you.
Hang in there. There are definitely going to be bad days. Just know that it will get better. One way or another.
Denver
Thanks for the support Denver and Starsky. I very much appreciate your advice, and I truly feel that I'm progressing better now than I was a few weeks ago.
Starsky, you're 100% right... I can write and write and think and think forever, and literally nothing will change until I take action.
I think my biggest dilemma right now is the timing of the action... Do I go ahead and take the action now, via phone... Or wait it out until I see W in person sometime next month? I know that's a decision only I can make, and at this moment, they're weighing 50-50.
The good news, I suppose, is there is no part of me that is willing to continue along this "wait and see" path for much longer. I know my action plan, I know it's going to be a tough road, but I KNOW that no matter what comes of it, I will be a better man by taking this action.
Thanks again guys for your help, advice, and for just being here to say hey. It means a ton!
Starsky, you're 100% right... I can write and write and think and think forever, and literally nothing will change until I take action.
Yes, but every decision that you make, and every word that you utter, should be made with the utmost thought, planning and with deliberation.
I know that there is a part of you that wants to rush to action. Sometimes, the best action is to sit quietly and let the answer come to you.
You know what you think that you should do. Now wait for the right time.
Sorry about the Jekyll and Hyde stuff!
But it feels nice to vent these blue feelings rather than let them simmer.
We're all dealing (or have dealt)with a WAS, we're quite used to Jekyll and Hyde stuff!
Sometimes, the best action is to sit quietly and let the answer come to you.
To quote a wise man I know
"^^^^^ Wisdom!"Unless you are convinced that you're there, I wouldn't rush into anything without a good dose of patience and mulling over. Some options will always be there, others won't. We've only been at this for a relatively short time you and I and I know how you must be feeling with OM in the picture (believe me I do), but I also know that you still love your wife dearly and that you would like to have her back NOW. Don't use an "extreme" measure as a tactic. Just do it if it's the way you
truly feel.
Cheers mate!
Thanks Arsene. I'm sure you know exactly how tough this all is!
The toughest part here, at least for me, is trying to make sure that I'm properly weighing out the actions and introspection. I need to make absolutely sure that i'm doing this, taking these actions, for ME, not to try to solicit an action from HER.
I'm definitely doing a good job in the "mulling it over" department, which is very good for me... a 180 that I've worked hard on... I'm normally one who wants to take immediate action, to fix whatever issue pops up in the shortest possible time, rarely giving it the proper amount of thought and consideration. I impulsively want to fix things and take control of situations in which I have very little, if any, actual control over...
And while I was writing my last post, W texted to tell me she'll be down in exactly a month to get the rest of her stuff. She says that's the only weekend that she can "bring help"...
Kinda puts me in a weird situation, as I'd like to be able to talk with her alone when she comes down, but if she's bringing along help, that seems less likely to occur...
Should I offer to help her myself?
And while I was writing my last post, W texted to tell me she'll be down in exactly a month to get the rest of her stuff. She says that's the only weekend that she can "bring help"...
Kinda puts me in a weird situation, as I'd like to be able to talk with her alone when she comes down, but if she's bringing along help, that seems less likely to occur...
Should I offer to help her myself?
If it were me, I would say "I can help you, if it means you can come alone. I've been thinking a lot about our situation, and beginning to make some decisions, and I'd like to have an opportunity to talk privately with you when you come down. I think the two of us can handle the stuff, don't you?"
This does three things. One, it's LEADING -- it lets her know that she's not the only one driving the bus here, with you waiting around like a puppy dog to see what she decides. Two, it gives you the private one-on-one to have "The Talk" when she comes down.
So what's "Three?" Three is, a little old-fashioned
infidelitus interruptus never hurts. If you give her a whole month to squirm and wonder "What has he decided? What is it he wants to talk to me about when I come down, that he wants to be private? WHAT'S IN HIS HEAD??!! Am I losing him as my fallback option??!"
. . . then that ain't a bad thing.
But that's just me.
Starsky
Great advice Starsky... So I actually went ahead and said MOST of that already...
I told her I'd be happy to help and she could line up the other help back in Central Florida, but she responded that she thinks it would be best "for both of us" if I wasn't there when she packed the rest of her stuff.
I told her that I had something I wanted to discuss with her in person, and she responded "Yeah, there are some things we need to discuss... but is there any particular reason you can't talk with me about it over the phone?"
I responded that I would prefer to meet, but I suppose the phone could work"
Then she asked if I wanted to talk about it now!
I told her "I'm working, so it's not the best time... What is it YOU wanted to discuss?:
She just responded "Well, you're working, so I guess its not the best time, right?"
Think I stepped in it there...
oh, vey . . . you sure did.
Your response: "Nothing that can't wait to be discussed in person, considering how important everything obviously is at this stage." -- and then AVOID any phone conversation, in my opinion.
Again, that's just me. If you DO decide to discuss this by phone, do it at a time that works for YOU. Don't play this junior-high game of "Well, what do YOU want to talk about??" ... "No, you go first . . " " No, YOU go first . . . "
(((rolls eyes)))
Your response: "Nothing that can't wait to be discussed in person, considering how important everything obviously is at this stage." -- and then AVOID any phone conversation, in my opinion.
Again, that's just me. If you DO decide to discuss this by phone, do it at a time that works for YOU. Don't play this junior-high game of "Well, what do YOU want to talk about??" ... "No, you go first . . " " No, YOU go first . . . "
(((rolls eyes)))
For what it's worth, I would suggest this as well!
Thanks for the quick reply Starsky and Suppo. I responded with "Okay. Well I'd prefer to wait and discuss in person, considering how important everything obviously is at this stage".
Awaiting her response...
Your response: "Nothing that can't wait to be discussed in person, considering how important everything obviously is at this stage." -- and then AVOID any phone conversation, in my opinion.
Again, that's just me. If you DO decide to discuss this by phone, do it at a time that works for YOU. Don't play this junior-high game of "Well, what do YOU want to talk about??" ... "No, you go first . . " " No, YOU go first . . . "
(((rolls eyes)))
Ugh...
AT, AT, AT...
Patience... patience... patience...
I just checked on this post like 10 minutes ago and nothing was going on...
Now? all hell has broken out.
Take your time man. There is absolutely no reason that you should have even responded to her first text yet, let alone already had a second round of text exchanges.
PATIENCE
You should have waited a few hours to respond. Ran it by the board here and considered your response more carefully.
Every word that you utter should be
deliberate and thought out.
Starsky's response to the cluster is as good as can be.
I would have topped it off with a good dose of "talk to you soon"...
You need to end this exchange quickly with something like that in appropriate context.
(facepalm)
Well I believe I've pulled it back around now... She responded to my last text with "Ok, well i'm not sure how that is gonna be possible considering we don't live in the same city" and I responded with Starsky's whole original "I can help you move if you come alone." response.
Now... Silence...
Definitely! ^^^^
Both you (Denver) & Starsky taught me in the beginning to only respond to kid related emergency texts! All others can wait a couple of hours, if not a day or two. And all texts/emails that have no meaning what-so-ever, other than a statement, need not be replied to!
That really sunk in with me when I heard that, due to the fact that my emotions would take control & I would respond too quickly & end up shoving my foot in my Arse afterwards.
Positive thing is that you have a month before she plans on coming down, so you have time to regroup & post here rapidly for thoughts/insight!
God Speed Brother!
She responded to the text as follows:
"I'm glad that you're making your deisions, as I am, too. Again, I appreciate the offer, but I don't feel good about you helping me move... I've got (Friend's name) and we can handle it. I'm trying to keep this as stress free and peaceful as possible for both of us."
I will not be responding to that text, as I've already screwed up enough and my emotions are quite positively in overdrive right now...
She responded to the text as follows:
"I'm glad that you're making your deisions, as I am, too. Again, I appreciate the offer, but I don't feel good about you helping me move... I've got (Friend's name) and we can handle it. I'm trying to keep this as stress free and peaceful as possible for both of us."
I will not be responding to that text, as I've already screwed up enough and my emotions are quite positively in overdrive right now...
Actually, I would respond AT.
"That works. We'll talk another time. Have a great day!"
Actually, I would respond AT.
"That works. We'll talk another time. Have a great day!"
I like it! Simple, yet refined! You have given me a few of these to text in the past, as well as Starsky!
Weird... I responded with Denver's above and I recieved this response:
"Wow. Yet again..."
What does that mean? I want to ask for clarification, but as I've already screwed up so much... I'll patiently wait for advice here...
I totally agree, no need to respond.
Ok. Won't be responding to that... Thanks Denver and thanks for chiming in unbidden!
It's so hard not to mind-read here. My mind constantly wants to analyze and analyze and over-analyze every exchange we had...
Maybe journaling it will help... (I realize these are all rhetorical questions that have no answers, but putting them down might help me clear my mind)
Why is she so insistent that she not see me when she comes to pack her stuff? Is she afraid that the decisions she's made might not hold up if we're in the same room? Or can she not face me knowing that OM is in the picture?
What are these "Decisions" she's been making that she feels we should talk about? And why was she trying to talk about them NOW? During the middle of a work-day on a Thursday?
And what does "Wow. Yet Again" mean? This is the one I'm most spinning over... Is this a pattern with me that W sees, but I haven't? Is she commenting on how quickly I changed my mind from wanting to see her in person to agreeing that we'd talk "some other time"? Is the fact that she's showing some anger here a good sign or a bad one? Is this even anger? Or is it just helping her solidify these "decisions" she's making.
My brain isn't functioning correctly right now...
She responded to the text as follows:
"I'm glad that you're making your deisions, as I am, too. Again, I appreciate the offer, but I don't feel good about you helping me move... I've got (Friend's name) and we can handle it. I'm trying to keep this as stress free and peaceful as possible for both of us."
I will not be responding to that text, as I've already screwed up enough and my emotions are quite positively in overdrive right now...
Actually, I would respond AT.
"That works. We'll talk another time. Have a great day!"
Perfect!
If you want to mind read... attempt to read my mind.
Here is an exercise to remove mind reading from your inability to act.
We used to do this at university all the time to stop from mind reading.
Case 1 : Wife says or does this : What I am mind reading
Your response : What you think you would do with that premise.
Outcome : What you think the logical outcome is.
Case 2 : Complete opposite of what I am mind reading.
Your response : What you think you would do with that premise.
Outcome : What you think the logical outcome is.
Case 3 : Something inbetween
Your response : What you think you would do with that premise.
Outcome : What you think the logical outcome is.
Case 4 : Never happens
Your response : What you think you would do with that premise.
Outcome : What you think the logical outcome is.
Now look over your responses and outcome.
Do you see any overlapping similarities.
Record them as Outcome 1
Do you see an differences ?
Record them as Outcome 2
Now with 2 outcomes.
Set them up as Case 1 and Case 2
Go through the process again.
At about this time.
You will think.
There really is no outcome that I can control when I am basing it around what I think this person may or may not do.
But I do know that there are only a few outcomes to this.
So I will scrap the mind reading.
And prepare based on what I can control.
Myself.
The benefit of this thought process is that if the conversation happens to flow in one of the cases written above. You have a good idea of where to lead the conversation.
Homework.
Thanks Chatterbug... I think you're thinking I'm insane.
This whole "Not Fighting for Me" thing keeps suddenly flashing into my mind... Like she's making up her mind more and more each day that she sees me "not fighting"...
No one said this was gonna be easy... I really have to remember patience... Today was a failure in that category.
Wow Chatterbug! Thanks for the homework. I'll have to work on that ASAP...
Latest text from W: "You know, I may not be at the beach on Sunday, and I know you'll be here, so..."
Eesh...
Background on that last text: I'm going up to Central Florida this weekend to hang with my family for a bit and do a couple fantasy football drafts. She previously told me she was going to the beach with her parents throughout the weekend. I didn't ask to see her at that time... but now she's reaching out.
I won't be driving up to C.FL, as I'm riding up there with my brother, sister-in-law, niece and puppy... So I'm kind of at their mercy when it comes to when we're leaving... Originally the plan was to leave C.FL on Sunday to try to beat the Labor Day traffic... I'm sure if I asked, they'd let me borrow the car for this...
However, Sunday will be pretty busy for me, at least in the morning... My fantasy draft starts at 10:00 am, and will probably go until about 2...
I know I want to have this conversation, and I don't think i'll ever feel "ready" to have it... but I'm not sure about if I should agree to this Sunday or not...
Unfortunately, It's my best option, as my car is on its last legs, and taking a trip up to Orlando some other time would be much tougher without having to rent a car...
Or I could just make her sweat it out a bit while I continue to prepare myself...
Starsky's post yesterday, about naval gazing v action taking is front of mind right now...
Or I could just make her sweat it out a bit while I continue to prepare myself...
Personally? I don't do this on her terms.
With all due respect to Chatterbug, I will attempt to mind read here. Yes, I do agree that this is a futile effort. However, I think that sometimes when we are deciding our next move, we need to try and figure out what move our opponent is trying to make. I like to play Risk. I kind of find some similarities.
Kinda kidding. LOL...
I think that her text "Wow... yet again" or whatever says two things:
1) She is wondering wtf decisions that you have made and is frustrated that you didn't agree to talk to her about it immediately ON HER TERMS. So, she is trying to bait you.
2) It may have been another play on this "you don't fight for me" theme.
Regardless, I would advise not biting.
A very common trait amongst WAS's is that they want to control everything. They get frustrated and even angry when things do not go their way. Many times, IMO, this is the result of feeling like they never had any control and never got their way during the M. That was certainly true with my W.
The LBS has to put a stop to the WA having control over everything. She will run over you if you allow this ALL of the time. As Starsky likes to point out, she will begin to lose respect for you. Either consciously or subconsciously.
I believe that you have an opportunity here to turn this around a tad bit.
Her interest is piqued. But she still believes that she has control and can get you to ACT on her terms.
She didn't want to do it on your terms because that's not how she has it drawn up.
I would respond with a simple:
"I'm pretty much booked with friends and family while I'm up there. We'll have to talk another time. Talk to you soon."
This time, YOU use the 'talk to you soon' line. Maybe we'll get her wondering when she's going to hear from you, and NOT the other way around.
Make sense?
She will be frustrated with you, and may even be angry. So be it. Like I've said before, you are going to have to expect some of that as this progresses. It's a result of what I talked about above... realizing that she is not in control of YOU and your actions and choices.
I also want to remind you that such emotions are actually good signs.
If she didn't care, she would wouldn't worry about what you have to say.
Denver
A very common trait amongst WAS's is that they want to control everything. They get frustrated and even angry when things do not go their way. Many times, IMO, this is the result of feeling like they never had any control and never got their way during the M. That was certainly true with my W.
The LBS has to put a stop to the WA having control over everything. She will run over you if you allow this ALL of the time. As Starsky likes to point out, she will begin to lose respect for you. Either consciously or subconsciously.
I believe that you have an opportunity here to turn this around a tad bit.
Her interest is piqued. But she still believes that she has control and can get you to ACT on her terms.
She didn't want to do it on your terms because that's not how she has it drawn up.
I would respond with a simple:
"I'm pretty much booked with friends and family while I'm up there. We'll have to talk another time. Talk to you soon."
This time, YOU use the 'talk to you soon' line. Maybe we'll get her wondering when she's going to hear from you, and NOT the other way around.
Make sense?
She will be frustrated with you, and may even be angry. So be it. Like I've said before, you are going to have to expect some of that as this progresses. It's a result of what I talked about above... realizing that she is not in control of YOU and your actions and choices.
I also want to remind you that such emotions are actually good signs.
If she didn't care, she would wouldn't worry about what you have to say.
Denver
Denver^^^^^,
Wholly cow this is awesome!!! Truly read my M to a T...Cheesin Rice I should post this on a word document and paste it to my forehead, so that I never forget it. And I am truly being serious.
Thanks so much for the hand Denver. I like that response so much that I used it almost verbatim... Only added her name at the end.
I've been chatting with a good friend via email about this situation, and she's brought up some fantastic points about needing to start taking some control back... to stop rolling over to every one of her needs and requests... She knows me VERY well and always has great insight for me.
I'm pretty sure I'll be getting a negative response to that last text, but it feels good to at least TRY to take some control here. As always, faithful readers, I'll keep you updated... And I'll commit to myself that I won't ACT on anything unless it's very measured, I'm in control of my own emotions, and I come here for help whenever it's necessary!
Love it, had it happen today!!! I have the kids most of this upcoming weekend however W wanted me to take the day off work tomorrow because she's at the end of her ropes with the kids, exhausted, etc...I said no in a fashion somewhat similar to Denver's above. Sure enough, W is pissed, leaving me vm's that "this isn't fair".
Wow, the text I got back was LOADED with venom.
"Whatever H. I'm not sure what your problem is, but i'm done playing whatever game this is. I'm trying to accommodate your wishes and you're being a d!ck. But since you "can't", let me know when you want to talk about the money you owe me, switching my phone and insurance, and if I need to pay for the paperwork for all of this. Oh, and tell (MUTUAL FRIEND) F*** Y** for me. or better yet, I'll do it... I have her number still. Have a GREAT weekend, H"
Ouch...
Backstory on the Mutual friend... she seems to be convinced that we're hooking up, but I haven't actually even SEEN her since W left... She did join our fantasy football league recently, but I have NO idea where she's getting this anger toward HER from?!?!
I'm pretty sure you are all going to tell me not to respond, no matter how badly I want to...
Help...
Wow, the text I got back was LOADED with venom.
"Whatever H. I'm not sure what your problem is, but i'm done playing whatever game this is. I'm trying to accommodate your wishes and you're being a d!ck. But since you "can't", let me know when you want to talk about the money you owe me, switching my phone and insurance, and if I need to pay for the paperwork for all of this. Oh, and tell (MUTUAL FRIEND) F*** Y** for me. or better yet, I'll do it... I have her number still. Have a GREAT weekend, H"
Ouch...
Backstory on the Mutual friend... she seems to be convinced that we're hooking up, but I haven't actually even SEEN her since W left... She did join our fantasy football league recently, but I have NO idea where she's getting this anger toward HER from?!?!
I'm pretty sure you are all going to tell me not to respond, no matter how badly I want to...
Help...
First, take a deep breath and relax.
WOW, that sounded familiar!
Seriously, I'm going to go find some similar situations that I faced and post them here so that you can see that this response is not out of the ordinary.
Tell me AT if you don't want me to post something like that here and I won't. It might let you see that you are not alone though. And, that this MAY be a good development.
Okay... so...
What money do you owe her? Is there any reason that you wouldn't want to switch her phone and insurance?
I realize that there is a certain level of connection that we still feel by continuing to be intertwined by finances, phone plans, insurance, and mailing address... HA ... I felt all of it. But in reality, those thing mean zilch.
So first let's decide if these are things that you want, or are okay with, to sever ties with her on.
I wouldn't reply until you have this figured out.
I have a suspicion that none of these particular things require a telephone conversation. That you can give her directions in a very business like email.
True?
Ignore her anger right now. It will subside... in other words, she'll get over it.
This very well may ultimately be a lead in to the conversation that you have been wanting to have with her. However, today is not the day.
Oh... and I also find it interesting that she is concerned about mutual friend.
Sit tight and keep posting here.
Denver
good to see she has not changed.
HER PROBLEM = COMPLAINT = YOU CHANGE SOLUTION
HER PROBLEM = COMPLAINT = EA/PA
Thanks Denver. I'm sitting tight... On my drive home from work, I actually felt a sense of relief in her response... Not sure why...
And I'd LOVE to read your similar situations! So PLEASE feel free to post them here!
So as to the money I "Owe" her... Before the bomb drop, but after I discovered pictures she'd sent to OM, when things were looking to be moving in a positive direction, we planned a trip to Vegas together to celebrate our 1 year anniversary. She paid for the hotel and plane on her Credit Cards... Well before the trip, she dropped the ILYBINILWY bomb and told me she was moving... so the trip never happened...
Before I began DBing, I told her that I'd pay her back for half of the non-refundable trip she booked... approx $500... So that's the money I owe her.
As I'm a man of my word, I plan on paying that back to her, and now that I've received my raise at work, It shouldn't be an issue in a month or so to do that.
You're 100% right on switching the phone and insurance... I know she's out of work (aside from the work she's doing for the small company that I own, but that's only paying a few hundred dollars a month) and I do indeed feel a connection in being able to continue to provide for her during these times. So the combination of me not wanting her to struggle too badly with finances and the slight connection I feel by being able to provide for at least a few of her basic needs is EXACTLY what's keeping me paying for those bills. I mean, it's only a couple hundred bucks a month total, and I can afford that.
You're right, I don't feel ANY need for a phone call to resolve those issues. I can write out an email next week to point out those details. I'll be sure to post that email here before I send though, as the advice of you folks is invaluable!
I too find it VERY interesting that she's so concerned about mutual friend... Let's call her J for the sake of brevity...
Now I may be revealing a bit too much here, but it's all anonymous right?
So while things were good with W and I, we became friends with J, who is an incredibly beautiful waitress at the bar we always watched football at on Sundays. W would always comment on how attracted to her that she was, and in the heat of passion, she would often bring up the fact that she wanted to invite J into the equation... I always played along in the heat of the moment, but never discussed it outside of those moments, although I know she wanted it sincerely...
Anyways, I KNOW she thinks that something is going on between J an I, but in all honesty, I've literally seen her ONE time since W moved away, and that was when she waited on us at the bar! We text occasionally (2-3 times a month) always about nonsense, but nothing more. I reached out to her last week, as we have a hole in our Fantasy Football league (since W decided to not play in it anymore) and I'd exhausted ALL my other options. She said that it sounded fun and joined... The posts of FB welcomed her into the league...
Again, I KNOW that W thinks something is going on between us, but it's absolutely not. As a matter of fact, a few months ago, J and I had an in depth conversation (via text) about how she cares deeply for W and doesn't want to complicate the situation by continuing to be my friend... I, at the time, didn't think it would be a big deal, as I'm 100% positive that nothing would EVER happen between us while I'm still married to W (or, most likely, even if we split for good) and she agreed... But ever since that conversation, we STILL haven't hung out.
Personal thoughts: I think W is projecting her situation with OM on me! I think she's trying to further justify what she's doing by saying "OH HE'S DOING IT TOO"... and I'm sure she'll be telling friends and family the same thing... But even though I'm NOT doing ANYTHING outside the bonds of marriage (i'm not doing ANYTHING that ANYONE would consider bad for a marriage) I think she's convinced herself that I'm having an A with J, because we talked about our mutual attraction to her, and now that W is hundreds of miles away (and with OM) she feels I'd think it's "Free Game" and would pounce on the opportunity.
Here's the truth: I haven't. I won't. I never would. I respect my M, and, as you all know, I'm fighting my a$$ off to bring M back on the right track...
But that can't change her mind!
So I'm not responding to her Text. If she calls, I'm ignoring the call. If she emails, I'm not responding until I post my response here and get the advice of you fine people...
I'm done making mistakes. I'm done being walked all over. I need to take some control and fight for ME AND my M.
LOL Chatterbug... I wish you weren't so right!
Sheesh... that was like a Penthouse letter! LOL
In my opinion, you shouldn't even address the issue with J unless placed directly on the spot. And then only after careful thought into what your response will be.
I think that you ought to compose a well crafted email detailing, in very direct terms, what your W needs to do to make the changes to her insurance and other financial ties. I would tell her that you will send her a check for what you owe her by [date]. And keep to that.
This should be a very business like, stale, email...
"W, in response to your last text yesterday.... You need to do this, that, and this. I will mail you a check for the $500 that I owe you by [date]. I hope that you are well."
I'd do this tomorrow probably.
You can expect more fireworks. Maybe even before that email. Your instinct will be to respond and to try and temper down her anger. My advice is not to be drawn into her craziness.
IF ANYTHING, you could send a short response... "I will respond when we are both being respectful of one another. Talk to you soon."
I'm not even sure that I'd send that right now.
Let her stew. That's my opinion.
Denver
P.S. I will post some of my W's own vitriol in her responses to similar communications that I had with her. Maybe tomorrow if I have time.
Hang in there. You are doing fine.
OHHH... and under no circumstance should you respond with anger or frustration.
You remain calm and kind under all circumstances.
stew with the carrots and potatoes.
24 hour rule now. Then decide if its still worth sending
Thanks for the words people!
Denver: I'll certainly craft that very business-like email, but not sure if I can do it tomorrow, as it'll be a crazy-busy day.
And apologies for making it sound like a PH forum for a minute! I'll keep those details out of it in the future!
I must say that although this was only a very small baby step, I feel pretty good about it... I'm standing up for myself a bit, trying to get things done on MY terms, and despite early hiccups, mostly handled myself with the strength and dignity that I've been lacking recently.
I don't plan on responding at all to her emails or texts for a while, not matter how inflammatory they may be. I'll be, as I proved earlier today, too likely to respond with emotion, and without a level-head, which will only hurt what I'm doing here. I'm pretty sure if I sent the "until we can both respect one another" type email or text that it would only incense her to an uncomfortable level... I know her, and I know that she'll be VERY upset for a while (she tends to hold grudges for quite a while) but I can't imagine that she can continue to be upset over this situation... I mean all I'm trying to do is talk to her in person about some major issues (which she's only guessing about... and she seems to be guessing that I'll be telling her I'm having an A, which is INSANE!
)
I think i'll be able to sleep pretty well tonight, knowing I've taken the first step toward fighting for MYSELF while still fighting for the Marriage! That's 180 central for me, who was always willing to do WHATEVER I could to make W happy, putting my feelings aside...
Chatterbug: Your advice, albeit brief, is sage-like. 24 hour rule would do wonders... But knowing how impatient I am, I may have to make it a 12 hour rule!
Chatterbug: Your advice, albeit brief, is sage-like. 24 hour rule would do wonders... But knowing how impatient I am, I may have to make it a 12 hour rule! smile
Let me correct that. I think you meant to write.
24 hour rule would do wonders... But knowing how impatient I am, I may have to make it a 12 hour rule!make it a double 12 hour rule! smile
I hear ya chatterbug... Just trying to lighten my mood with my last post. Definitely gonna implement the 24 hour rule!
Lightening the mood is something we could all use more of going through Trials & Tribulations in life!
Hang in there Brother! The Freshman Class of 2012 will persevere! And once we do, I think we should all have a reunion & meet up face to face to celebrate our restored families!
So I'm anxious as hell about sending off this email, and wanted to post it here to get your advice before firing off... I don't want this to cause another firestorm, but I like Denver's advice on sending this email today...
Hey W,
In response to your last text yesterday, I wanted to let you know what you'd need to do to take yourself off the insurance and phone plan.
For [Insurance}, the login is [XXX] and the password is [XXX}. All you have to do once you login is "Delete Driver" and "Delete Vehicle" and you're all set. The next payment comes out on 9-4-12, so if you do it after that date, you'll have a full month to get other coverage, if that's what you decide.
For the phone, the login is [XXX] and the password is [XXX]. You'll want to select your phone and select "Change Plan" then you can switch to an Individual plan with [XXX] if you'd like. If you want to go with another provider, let me know, because I'll have to actually call them to authorize the phone number being switched to another carrier. This bill was paid about 4 days ago, so again you have plenty of time to get other coverage if that's what you decide.
I'll deposit the $500 for my half of the [XXX] trip on September 14 and should be able to get the $ for the couch to you by the weekend you're planning on coming down. Your [WORK] check will be deposited on Tuesday.
I hope that you are well and have a good weekend.
H
How about.
For insurance you are covered to the following date :
After this time you will be on your own insurance. If you have any questions call Judy are agent at xxx-xxx-xxxx
For the phone you are covered to the following date :
If you need to change providers let me know as I have to call the provider and give authorization.
The cheque for the deposit will be mailed to you on this day :
H
This places the responsibility of her to get insurance and phone by this date. It stops her from the oh I forgot. I would send this in email to her. Not Text. I would print it and file it. (I forgot to mention include the account numbers in the email not login and password )
I would also print and file any replies.
I would call the insurance and phone and ask her to be removed on those days.
I would follow up with insurance and phone 2 days before and the day of.
In future if you do not do direct deposit for work mail her the cheque.
Its [censored] that she is hard up on money. But what can you expect when you quit your job and move to a city that has unemployment around 10%
Is she still doing work for your company?
If not I would terminate her.
And what is this about the couch ?
Hey Chatter,
We bought a couch together a few months before she moved out, and she asked if I wanted to keep it and pay for the other half. I'll gladly do that so I don't have to buy another!
Yes, she's still doing work for my company, and despite all this, she's a very valuable asset. She needs 0 management and always gets her work done early and perfectly.
As weird as it sounds, I could care less if she stays on my insurance/phone or not. The difference in the payments if she leaves them will be under $100 a month (we got good plans and connections on them), and don't think that taking THAT hardline a stance would be beneficial to either of us. As it stands now, she is proud enough to want to pay for everything on her own and doesn't want a penny from me, now or in the future... Turning this into a battle over a few hundred bucks NOW could lead to heavy consequences in the future...
I think this requires a bit more of a gentle hand, knowing her unstable state right now.
but I like Denver's advice on sending this email today...
Hey W,
In response to your last text yesterday, I wanted to let you know what you'd need to do to take yourself off the insurance and phone plan.
For [Insurance}, the login is [XXX] and the password is [XXX}. All you have to do once you login is "Delete Driver" and "Delete Vehicle" and you're all set. The next payment comes out on 9-4-12, so if you do it after that date, you'll have a full month to get other coverage, if that's what you decide.
For the phone, the login is [XXX] and the password is [XXX]. You'll want to select your phone and select "Change Plan" then you can switch to an Individual plan with [XXX] if you'd like. If you want to go with another provider, let me know, because I'll have to actually call them to authorize the phone number being switched to another carrier. This bill was paid about 4 days ago, so again you have plenty of time to get other coverage if that's what you decide.
I'll deposit the $500 for my half of the [XXX] trip on September 14 and should be able to get the $ for the couch to you by the weekend you're planning on coming down. Your [WORK] check will be deposited on Tuesday.
I hope that you are well and have a good weekend.
H
Edits above AT.
I understand what Chatter is saying, but I personally think that your version is good (with the edits). Your version is fairly direct (with my edits), yet it is kind and polite. I just don't think that you want to come across as p!ssed off. Which I'm afraid is how she will perceive chatter's version. IMO, you want to come across as 'to the point', kind, in control.
I haven't seen Starsky poking around the past couple of days, but i'm going to assume that he would lean more towards chatter's version.
I got this a lot during my sitch. Some vets pushed me to be MORE polite and kind, while others pushed me for a more harsh approach. I think that there is a time and a place for both. I see a lot of my sitch in yours, so I'm going with the kinder more gentle approach for now.
JMO.
Denver
P.S. - Your email is a bit wordy. Thus the edits. Also, you suggest that she still has to 'decide' on whether she wants these things. I think that she was quite clear yesterday that she does.
Thanks Denver. Yeah, all my emails (and posts!) are pretty wordy... That's why this writer badly needs his editors!
I'll wait a little while longer to decide, but I'm definitely leaning toward a kinder approach to this particular situation...
Well since she is still working then carry on with agreement. You mentioned earlier that she up'd and left.
So I posted under this thought.
The couch send her a cheque for that as well with the 500 bucks.
The phone and insurance are beneficial to her. She needs to build her credit scores again. This will help with that. This also helps her with being independent. This is what she asked for. So give it to her. Be business like on this. Get it done. You will keep her on to say hey look at me. I am taking care of you still. And you will use it in conversation down the road. That is just who you are. You should ask yourself why you are stonewalling on items such as this.
Some times actions do lead to consequences in the future.
I would think leaving you to be with another man would be an action that carries some consequences.
You are separated now. So give her a hand on this with separating the accounts.
There is no heavy consequences of anything in the future.
You get divorced : She has her accounts set up.
You get back together : You merge your accounts again.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
I would like to add to what denver said.
We write to you at different degree's
We do not spoon feed you.
You take the words and you change and alter them into your own based on what you wrote and decide. With reading and understanding what we wrote to you.
We never expect or dictate that you write verbatim what we suggested.
That is solely up to you my friend.
Thanks Chatter! I completely understand your point, and think it is a good one absolutely. I'm just taking a less confrontational approach. I think the outcome will be the same either way.
And I completely understand about the "verbatim" thing... I certainly don't want to become "dependent" on other people's words to say what I need! But I greatly appreciate the support and sometimes, I can't have written it better myself!
And as hard as it might be to believe, I'd never bring up the fact that I continued to "support" her in the future. It's simply something that I am more than capable of doing right now and, as much as she's hurt me, I still don't want to see her suffer financially at this point.
I kept ladybug on for 2.5 months afterwards.
I sent the email stating.
Ladybug.
I have decided that since this is a time of transition I wanted to make sure that you have a good buffer to change over the insurance , phone , and benefits.
I spoke with Insurance agent and at this date our insurance will separate. Agent Name would like to keep you on as a customer and is awaiting your phone call to transition to your new plan.
I will remove your phone number from the plan on this date. Here is the details of the plan ( .... )
The benefits will expire on this day : If you cannot get coverage please give me three weeks notice of the date your plan starts so I can adjust the expiration accordingly.
If you have any questions or concerns do not hesitate to ask.
Take Care Ladybug
Chatter.
Well long time ago....
So I'm anxious as hell about sending off this email, and wanted to post it here to get your advice before firing off... I don't want this to cause another firestorm, but I like Denver's advice on sending this email today...
Hey W,
In response to your last text yesterday, I wanted to let you know what you'd need to do to take yourself off the insurance and phone plan.
For [Insurance}, the login is [XXX] and the password is [XXX}. All you have to do once you login is "Delete Driver" and "Delete Vehicle" and you're all set. The next payment comes out on 9-4-12, so if you do it after that date, you'll have a full month to get other coverage, if that's what you decide.
For the phone, the login is [XXX] and the password is [XXX]. You'll want to select your phone and select "Change Plan" then you can switch to an Individual plan with [XXX] if you'd like. If you want to go with another provider, let me know, because I'll have to actually call them to authorize the phone number being switched to another carrier. This bill was paid about 4 days ago, so again you have plenty of time to get other coverage if that's what you decide.
I'll deposit the $500 for my half of the [XXX] trip on September 14 and should be able to get the $ for the couch to you by the weekend you're planning on coming down. Your [WORK] check will be deposited on Tuesday.
I hope that you are well and have a good weekend.
H
I like the tone of this one ^^^ -- you sound strong, confident. "I'll be just fine" kinda thing.
I do like C-Bug's idea about putting all the balls in HER court, however.
Starsky
I would like to add to what denver said.
We write to you at different degree's
We do not spoon feed you.
You take the words and you change and alter them into your own based on what you wrote and decide. With reading and understanding what we wrote to you.
We never expect or dictate that you write verbatim what we suggested.
That is solely up to you my friend.
What he said ^^^
Alkaline we also have hindsight as well.
See we know what is also going on in the background.
Waywards are lazy.
They want you to do all the work. Part of that displacement.
So you have a few things going on below the surface.
There is the race between you and realizing your a chump. Once you hit that chump stage it is over. You close the door forever. And believe me it will happen one day.
There is this other race as well. Between stone walling and doing all the work.
Her dream of separation does not include day to day hard work. As you can already see. She is unable to do any hard-work. If she was able she would have worked on her issues and her issues in the marriage.
Alkaline we also have hindsight as well.
See we know what is also going on in the background.
Waywards are lazy.
They want you to do all the work. Part of that displacement.
So you have a few things going on below the surface.
There is the race between you and realizing your a chump. Once you hit that chump stage it is over. You close the door forever. And believe me it will happen one day.
There is this other race as well. Between stone walling and doing all the work.
Her dream of separation does not include day to day hard work. As you can already see. She is unable to do any hard-work. If she was able she would have worked on her issues and her issues in the marriage.
Again, what he said ^^^
You know Chatter... Sometimes... I hate how right your are... My phone right this moment is about 20 feet away, and I've heard it go off with a text twice, but I refuse to go see who it is...
I found out a couple hours ago that not only is my with with OM this weekend, but she's with OM AND her entire family this weekend... so that means they all know what's going on, and they're evidently all cool with it...
I feel like such a sucker for continuting to love her so much and fight so hard for this R...
Never feel like a sucker for loving your wife. But if that is true and she is with OM and the family and under their support. I would be on plan D. As that is a level of disrespect I would not tolerate. As those actions will ruin your relationship with the in-laws. But right now your under hearsay. So do not act in haste. Use this little bitterness and anger to give you some resolve to move forward in your life. And use this to steady yourself when you want to do something silly like go all mushy or lash out in anger.
The aspect you will see now is that she will come back at you with some dictation of what your going to do. As this will have built her confidence. So just ride it out and carry on with your planned response and then put the phone down again for 4 to 6 hours and get a little gal in. Its sunny and enjoy family and friends.
No matter what. Be a gentleman.
It's rare when wordy and opinionated ol' me has nothing to add. But I have nothing to add. Some brilliant advice up there. ^^^
Starsky
Thanks Chatter and Starsky... Thankfully, I didn't in any way act on the information I got last night... (Mutual friend in C.FL stopped by and let me know she changed her last name on FB and was tagged with her whole family and OM at the beach).
I AM simply going to use this to strengthen my resolve in this... Plan on having "The Conversation" soon, and truly begin detaching and moving on...
Despite the new info, I am not to plan D, but I am now at the point that I can't keep "hoping for the best" and not taking solid action.
I'm going completely dark until I have the talk with her. It would be simple to do it this weekend, but I'm not sure if it's a great ides...
Alk,
Definitely use this to strengthen your resolve! You have made mistakes in your M, as we all have, but that doesn't mean you need to sit around & take this kind of disrespect.
There is a huge difference in "WANTING" your W to come back & "NEEDING" your W to come back.
Time for you to get out there and build your confidence back up! Definitely remain a Gentleman in this entire fiasco (sitch), and maybe going DARK is one of those 180's you need to do in order to regain some self-confidence.
God Speed Freshman!
Alka,
My thoughts go out to you mate. You've got a lot of thinking to do so going dark, IMO, is a good idea. Also, don't forget to GAL and think about yourself. Treat yourself to something and forget about this mess for a bit.
Although I agree that it's disrespectful to the most. I also think she is acting out of anger at the fact that you are taking control of the situation. This FB sh@t is nothing more than her trying to get to you so don't let her. Stick with your plan and be strong mate. You've been doing great and guess what? You are getting a reaction. IMO, it's still too early to tell where it's going.
Cheers,
Skip the conversation. Time for talking is over. Time to plan your mission. Then stay on path.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Skip the conversation. Time for talking is over. Time to plan your mission. Then stay on path.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
I love this Chatter! It's like I am getting a pep talk from my Battalion CO before we were about to enter the gates of Hell in Fallujah.
Please continue posting in on our (Freshman) threads! We need all the support from Vets who have won the War, so to speak (although, I know it's not truly a War).
Alkaline,
Not sure if you like Rock music, but look up "Otherwise-Soldiers" on YouTube! Fantastic & motivating song.
God Speed Freshman!
As it's been a busy weekend, I haven't had time to update much... GAL in full effect, and for the most part it's been going very well.
I've felt a shift in my thinking over the last couple days... Not a seismic one, mind you, but its at least a bit easier to not get SO bent out of shape when W crosses my mind.
This weekend's "Hearsay" experience, knowing that if NOTHING else, her family knows that she's spending time with OM has put a little perspective on the situation and on how rapidly the odds are stacking against my favor...
But it's not a bad feeling... It's making it a little easier to keep focusing on the things I can actually control and stop spending time thinking about things I can't.
I do feel a little bit foolish around the friends and family who have pointed out W's actions... W's seeming disregard of subtlety in what she's doing... because I know that they see me still wanting to find a way to build a new relationship with W as insane... but I won't let that stop my personal progress either way.
Chatter, you said that the time to talk is over, but to remain a gentleman in this sitch... The gentleman part I'll have no problem with, but I still feel that laying it out there (the fact that I have knowledge of OM and can't continue to support her emotionally while he's in the picture) is the right thing to do.
Thoughts?
Chatter, you said that the time to talk is over, but to remain a gentleman in this sitch... The gentleman part I'll have no problem with, but I still feel that laying it out there (the fact that I have knowledge of OM and can't continue to support her emotionally while he's in the picture) is the right thing to do.
Thoughts?
For RIGHT NOW, based on this new info (the trip with OM), I have to agree with Chatter. The time for convo is over. Communicate through actions, not words.
Sit on this for a while AT. Let it soak in and see how you feel a week from now, or two weeks from now.
Denver
For RIGHT NOW, based on this new info (the trip with OM), I have to agree with Chatter. The time for convo is over. Communicate through actions, not words.
Sit on this for a while AT. Let it soak in and see how you feel a week from now, or two weeks from now.
Denver
Denver,
You think I should do the same? Communicate through actions, not words etc.? Especially since she made apromise to me to never do this to me again & the fact that when I asked her at the beginning of the sep, she told me flat out that there was no OM.
You guys are right, they are living on a high & truly don't know what they are doing! Kids asked me if she enjoys hurting them so much? How do you answer that?
God Speed Alk & Freshman!
Suppo - I tried to answer your question on your thread.
Alkaline
You think out a few ideas and plan... You plan out how to get that 500 bucks plus couch fund ( still think that is crazy kind of like a double dip tax )
You enact upon them. As you have no other reason to contact her. Leave it be and work on yourself.
If you need to communicate ( which I doubt ) you do it through email.
You have your place to go through and inventory , make it into a bachelor's pad etc....
You have to move everything that she is taking from the place into one location so nothing else is removed. Personally if there was a garage I would move the stuff there 2 days before so no one needs to be in the place.
And you work out the next stages of your plan. Make your goals Alkaline specific. Work , exercise , personal growth.
And continue with the Plan D goals as well. You need to place legal protection around you.
Thanks Chatter... I'll definitely be working on myself, staying dark, continuing my exercise routine and work stuff, and GALing as much as possible.
We talked a couple weeks back, and she's only planning on taking her clothes and a few other things when she comes back... She's not renting a moving truck, only using an SUV and will only get one trip to take what she "needs". We have no garage, but I'm honestly not worried about what she'd take.
Still not at the "Plan D" stage, no matter how crazy it may seen, but I hear what you're saying about legal protection...
D takes two years in our state. But protection can happen as soon as you two agree. So work towards that. As you know most of these do not work out. So you would be foolish to not get protection in place for both of you.
This is not only for you but it is for her as well.
And trust me on the being there and making sure nothing extra is taken.
Trust me on this. Make this as easy as possible. For the both of you. It is being very kind to get it all ready.
Think about this.
You driving for a few hours. To get your stuff under the eyes of someone who you have disappointed. Then drive a few hours to unload.
You always say you willing to be nice.
So be nice here. And gather it up. And make sure this is the smooth part.
P.S. This is your last good attempt to show that your a gentleman under some stress without expecting anything in return.
So use it wisely. It is a one shot. And this is a good one for both paths down the road.
D or R
Its why I have dropped the round over and over in the same spot.
Thanks Chatter... I'll certainly take this into serious consideration.
Very busy make-up day at work today, so won't have too much time to journal or write more, but I'd love to hear from you guys on the current state of the sitch.
Haven't heard from W since her last text (documented earlier in this thread)... No response to the email I sent, which is totally fine, if a little out of character.
Then again, just about everything with W seems out-of-character at the moment.
Came up with a theory over the weekend about how that kinda nasty exchange just happened to occur a day before she was planning on going out of town with OM and the family... Sounds like she needed a little internal-justification for the actions she knew were on the horizon... Just a theory...
Had an extremely eventful weekend, filled with ups and downs, catching up with old friends, drafting Fantasy Football leagues, meeting tons of new people, and lots of quality time with the family... which is ALWAYS very dramatic, and it didn't disappoint this year either! Might write about that in the future...
I feel a little silly for having the feeling I have in the pit of my stomach... That part of me that sees all that she's doing, yet still wants to continue to move on AND pave a path for her to return one day...
The good part is, I can honestly say that i've transitioned from NEEDing her back in my life to WANTing her back in my life one day... That's a major step for me, and one that I don't take lightly.
pathing the path is good but do not go buy the car , pick her up and drive her home....
Somethings need to be done by her as well....
Yes Chatter, a TON of things need to be done by her... I'll make the path home as smooth as possible, but I certainly won't be driving her down it... I'll make sure it's smooth, well lit, and has plenty of signs, but she needs to CHOOSE to follow the path without any pushing from me... Besides, if I have to push her down the path, I'll never be able to be confident that she wanted to go down it in the first place.
Yes and Yes! I like Chatter's post. Hadn't heard that before. But so true.
Your W has to want to return before there can be a successful R.
I couldn't agree more Denver! Thanks for the input!
Yes Chatter, a TON of things need to be done by her... I'll make the path home as smooth as possible, but I certainly won't be driving her down it... I'll make sure it's smooth, well lit, and has plenty of signs, but she needs to CHOOSE to follow the path without any pushing from me... Besides, if I have to push her down the path, I'll never be able to be confident that she wanted to go down it in the first place.
I love this Alkaline, so true. I often think that in order to heal the feelings from being the LBS, i will need my W to make a turn, entirely on her own, in my direction. thanks for the reminder.
Just a little journaling:
I'm glad that football starts again tonight, as it'll definitely help get my mind off the sitch for at least a few hours a week... Although I closely associate football with W, as it used to be a hell of a great time and tradition for us to watch all the games together...
Today marks 6 days since W last reached out to me, which is the longest stretch we've gone without talking for over three months. I'm torn about this, as I know I need to be dark right now and let the new information (about her bringing OM on a family vacation evidently) sink in... but it still stings to not hear a peep from her in so long.
I'm planning on trying to find someone to watch the game with tonight... to get out of the house and be around people in a social setting. Starting my workout routine back in full force tomorrow, so that should boost my mood considerably as well.
So long story short, I miss W (as always) but I'm working on GAL and detaching... Working on paving the road back home, putting up the signs and lights and making sure I don't push her down the road myself... Some days, that's tougher than others.
Just a little journaling:
Today marks 6 days since W last reached out to me, which is the longest stretch we've gone without talking for over three months. I'm torn about this, as I know I need to be dark right now and let the new information (about her bringing OM on a family vacation evidently) sink in... but it still stings to not hear a peep from her in so long.
It's okay AT. I believe that 90% of the progress that was made during my sitch occurred when my W and I were NOT having contact. I know that its hard. Oh how I know. Stick with it, and have faith that you are doing what you need to be doing right now.
Hang in there.
Denver
Thanks Denver. I really need to hear those words of encouragement. Going a week now without hearing from W is so damn tough, especially knowing how apt she is to hold major grudges and strengthen her resolve the more slighted she feels by someone.
I'm supposed to see my IC tonight, but may have to put it off for financial reasons... I'm awfully curious as to what he'll say about the current situation, although I have a feeling he'll suggest that I reach out to her...
Went out to watch the first of the football games last night with a couple friends. While it was nice, W crossed my mind almost constantly, as this was the first game in over 3 years I watched without her by my side... Then I dreamt about her, woke to a painfully empty house again, and now need to get ready for work.
Today might be a little rough, but I'll work on gathering up my strength and PMA, try to look on the bright side, and try hard not to notice the hole that seems so visible this morning.
Okay, time for more journaling during my lunch break here...
I know I have to expect days like this, and I know that when they come, they're only temporary. I also know that putting these feelings down seem to help lift my mood in at least some way, so here we go.
I'm having a tough time getting the image of my W with her Ex-BF/Current OM and her family hanging out together last weekend out of my head, which pretty much s*cks. It's certainly dimming my hopes of a future R right now, which also s*cks pretty badly. Still, despite these thoughts and feelings, I'm not going to give up, give in, or stop fighting for myself and my R with W.
Looking back over the last weekend with friends and family, I know there were quite a few great times, but today I'm mostly focusing on the Not-so-great moments...
It was a recurring theme in my mind about how much I missed W almost the entire weekend. We spent countless hours hanging out with friends and family, each of which are married, many with kids, and seem to be doing quite well. We even went to a friend's housewarming party, which got the old "Thinking about W" ball rolling even faster.
I couldn't stop thinking about how badly I wanted to be on the other side of this... To be the one looking at houses with my W, especially now that my financial situation is improving. This was also around the time which we'd decided that we would start trying to have our first child... She didn't want to wait too long, as she feels she's getting up in age and had medical issues when she was younger which would make having a child very challenging... We decided to be married for a year and a half or so, to enjoy our first year and honeymoon before starting to try to have kids... I'm certainly glad we waited now, but I can't help but get melancholy about it some times, especially when I'm seeing so many friends and family having kids, buying houses, and moving in positive directions in their lives.
Some days, like today, it's hard to hold onto hope and keep the fear and doubt at bay. I'm sure its a combination of last weekend and the images that go along with it, the fact I haven't heard a peep from her in a week, and the fact that I've been slacking off WAY too much on my workout routine these last two weeks...
I know I can change one of those things immediately, as I hit the gym this morning and will be doing so tomorrow as well, so I can get back into the daily routine. And I'm pretty sure the other things will ebb and flow throughout my mind. I just need to make sure I don't get too high-with-the-highs and too low-with-the-lows... And you wonderful people help so much with that!
It's a good thing you waited...
The more you accept and understand reality the stronger you will become.
So haven't updated in a couple days, but there's not a huge amount going on.
Session with IC went very well. His thoughts and theories on the text exchange from last week were very interesting, as he confirmed they certainly showed she at least WAS still "involved" in our R (otherwise she wouldn't have shown such emotions), but she most likely was at a point that she needed to "other" me...
He also commented on how much I've grown over the last month or so, how the statements I'm making during IC are much more decisive, strong, and positive while still maintaining the caring person I am...
He and I spoke about when/if I needed to have "the conversation" and I'm pretty sure I'll sit on it for a little longer, but my tentative plans are to sit down with her in person when I go up to Central Florida for business in a few weeks... Obviously I'll keep the board updated!
So other than that, I have no plans for today, so I'll be cleaning the house, hitting the dog park... maybe catch a movie or something... Tomorrow is Football with my buddies, which will be great.
Still sad W hasn't tried to reach out in so long... I still miss her terribly. But I'm spending more time focusing on the good things IN ME, the things that anyone would like, the reasons I'm pretty kick a$$, and trying to focus more on those things than the fact that W isn't seeing them... because I can... and most other people can too...
Alk, I've been following many of your posts, and I need a lil pick me up and I think your last post here it just what I needed.
Rock on!!!
Thanks afa! I just caught up and commented on your sitch too!
Still sad W hasn't tried to reach out in so long...
Do you believe that you have not crossed her mind AT? If you do, I have some swamp land in FL that I'd like to sell you. It's close to your neck of the woods.
I think that she is testing you right now. She trying to remain in control by NOT contacting you. I'm mind reading a bit here, but this is what I have generally seen with other situations as well as my own.
Continue to wait. Be silent. The space is good. She no longer has you to go to for emotional support or to vent. Only OM. And THAT is good too. Push them closer and soon the luster will wear off of that R. That is what you want.
I would not reach out to her on this business trip if you do not hear from her first. The conversation does not actually have to take place at all. You are communicating to her right now... through actions. Eventually, IMO, she will call to check your temperature. And THEN you have that conversation.
I know it's hard. Hang in there.
Thanks Denver! Strangely enough, you're right about the swampland, as I live just a few miles from the everglades!
I WILL continue to wait... I WILL continue to be silent, and when I feel the need to reach out, I'll just post here instead!
I agree with your assertion that W is trying to get some control back, and I'm not afraid of it pushing OM and W closer together anymore... as I realize that it's for the best either way.
Now, I've got to get ready to meet the guys up at the bar for a full day of football! It feels like christmas morning!