In an effort to be more transparent with everyone, and since I've been asked a lot of questions (by zig and others) about my own sitch, I decided to post a link to it, here.
I used to post under two different usernames -- at first, "Chocolateeyes," and then later as "Puppy Dog Tails." For reasons that I won't get into in a lot of detail, I was banned and had to change my username, and promise to follow the rules (no posting links to other marital helpsites, no links to other non-MWD books, no advocating exposure, etc.). It was my fault, agree or disagree this is MWD's site and we are here at her courtesy, and hence "Starsky" was born, and I've continued to try to help pay-it-forward as it were.
The problem is, there's no context for a lot of my advice -- no backstory to what worked for me, what didn't work, what mistakes I made and what successes I had (we ultimately saved our marriage, praise God!).
I hope this is OK, and if not I'll just ask the mods to delete this post, but here are my old threads:
Chocolateeyes:
Choc's old threads http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...osts&page=1Puppy Dog Tails:
Puppy's old threads http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=19113I hope those links work. I'd be happy to answer any questions. For reference, I got the bomb on 5/27/2007, and we reconciled (with some fits and starts) in late-August of that same year.
Here's my story, from my personal archives:
My Story:
I actually had two main confrontations with my wife. Initially, I had suspicions, based on the way she was acting and some of the things she was googling on the computer (I had a keylogger). Naturally, she denied it -- twice.
Then one night I was out of town, at my dad's 80th birthday party, and she stayed home with the kids. I got an e-mail on my BlackBerry from my keylogger, showing that she was searching "older woman/younger man" and "sexual positions" etc. on the home computer. I felt sick to my stomach, and like an ox was standing on my chest. I couldn't breathe, and I didn't know if I should tell my folks and my siblings, or try to keep it to myself.
I was up all night, distraught, and phoned my wife and confronted her around midnight. "You're up late," I said. "Yeah, I couldn't sleep," she replied. She sounded nervous. "What are you doing?" I asked, and she could tell something was wrong. "Just on the computer," she said. "What's wrong?"
(pause)
"Look, I know all about you and (OM's first name), and it needs to stop. Immediately. This is incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage, and to our family." She tried to deny it at first, but I persisted (without revealing my intel), saying "Please STOP IT. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's horribly disrespectful. If you're going to lie to me, I'm just going to hang up."
She then SORT of told me the truth, denying that it had become physical (which I later found out was also a lie).
I exposed to our adult daughters that night, via a phone call. My D-then-18 already knew, as she had suspected something and her and her best friend had followed her mother one night a couple of weeks ago, and caught her coming out of a bar with the guy, and saw them get into a car together. The poor thing had been keeping this all to herself, because she didn't want to upset her daddy. She broke down on the phone and cried, and so did I.
I told both her and her sister (D-then-20) that I loved their mother very much, did NOT want a divorce, but I also wasn't going tolerate this kind of disrespect. I WOULD NOT LIVE IN AN OPEN MARRIAGE. They both said they understood, and respected my position. D18 wanted to confront OM that next day, and I talked her down, and told them both just to wait until I got back from my trip and we could discuss it as a family.
I also exposed to my parents and siblings the next morning, as I felt I needed their support. In the ensuing couple of weeks, I gave my wife repeated chances to end the affair -- she refused 5-6x -- and then I finally exposed to her parents, OM's parents (he lived with his parents!) and their employer, on whose premises the affair was partly taking place. Since the kid was also studying to become a cop, and was going thru the Academy, I found out that there was a "public review" process and I wrote a letter to his file, exposing their affair, and opposing his candidacy to become a police officer.
About 50 days in, I filed for divorce, after she repeatedly threatened to divorce ME. I felt I needed to protect myself, and decided to go for full custody of our boys.
Despite all of this, and my tightening the finances to stop paying for anything that was enabling her affair (cellphone, plastic surgery payment, haircoloring, etc.), her affair continued -- heated up -- for 60 days. I then RE-confronted her, with the "NO MORE DECEIT" confrontation (it's all in my old Chocolateeyes threads; Summer of 2007). This re-confrontation took place in her car, in a department store parking lot, when I told her one evening that "we need to talk." I had decided that while I may not be able to stop her from having an affair, I damned sure wasn't going to let her continue to LIE about it to her parents and to our adult daughters, and try to say that I was being "paranoid" and accusing HER, when everything I was claiming was 100% TRUE.
I told her at this meeting "you either tell them, or I will, and I will show them my evidence."
I gave her 5 minutes to decide.
She told them.
It took about another month before she fully ended it and begged me to take her back, but make no mistake -- that night was basically the beginning of the death of her affair. She had one backslide, about 2 weeks into no-contact/transparency, which she self-confessed, and we got thru it. After two 3-month "stays" of the divorce action, I finally withdrew it the following Spring.
We had fits and starts over the next couple of years, nearing divorce twice (even met with the mediator), ending with a mutually-agreed-upon separation this summer, where we would try to date each other, but each would date other people (she had initially INSISTED on this, and I initially said it was a DEALBREAKER. I then changed my mind, based mostly on Gucci's and Robx's stuff on here). Not two weeks into that arrangement, she called me in tears (I was on my one and only "date"), and long story short, I moved back in with her and we agreed to MC and we fully reconciled.
We've had some tough moments, but our marriage is stronger than it's ever been. The MC is fantastic (had been my wife's IC), holds our feet to the fire, and we're finally starting to deal with some of our sex-starved marriage issues and my wife's problems with intimacy. Turns out MWD's books (along with Harley, Glass and some of my other faves) were all over the MC's office! I knew I had found the right place for us. My wife and I are better friends than we have ever been, have ML more in the past 3 months than we had in the past six YEARS, and I'd say we are "Piecing" at this point, to use the DB phrase.
I hope that helps. That's an awfully long answer to a short question, but I thought I'd just put it all out there.
Puppy
I should add as a P.S.
Throughout all of these "tough stances," I maintained a "loving detachment" towards my wayward wife. Oh, we had our moments -- three or four real blow-ups -- but for the most part, we managed to keep things civil. I laid out some boundaries (no family finances used to enable your affair, no TMing or phoning OM from inside our home, no TMing or phoning OM in front of our sons, from ANYWHERE, if you're going to come home after 1am, don't bother coming home, etc.), and I must say, she respected them almost completely.
The "loving" part of "loving detachment" comes easier for you, trust me, when you maintain full intel ("snooping") and you hear and see the things that I heard and saw. But I did try to "shine a light back towards the marriage, even as I never wavered from my Main Boundary ("I will not live in an open marriage") and my sub-boundaries mentioned above. I would do occasional loving Acts of Service for my wife, such as pulling her car in the garage late at nite, or covering her with a blanket when she fell asleep on the couch, kissing her on the forehead, etc.
I believe that this "hybrid" approach -- aggressive confrontation & exposure, firm boundaries, cut off all financial enabling, strong legal stance; coupled with DBing principles such as GAL, "be the better option," 180s, etc. -- is what works best when there is active infidelity involved.
Reasonable people may disagree, but this is what worked for me, and this is also what I have seen work in my time on these boards, as well as my study of literally thousands of affairs.
I apologize for any confusion, and for not providing this sooner. I really didn't want to add any more drama to the sitch, but I do want to be 100% honest with everyone now, warts and all.
Paul/Choc/Puppy/Starsky
((((((Pup))))))
I have always been so proud to call you a friend, never more so than at this exact moment.
More full disclosure:
We have, since the date I wrote that "My Story," sadly fallen back into our old SSM ways. Our marriage is excellent in every other aspect, as we truly are best friends, partners, co-parents and now proud grandparents, and our bond has never been stronger. We just struggle with the whole sexual relationship thing.
More full disclosure:
We have, since the date I wrote that "My Story," sadly fallen back into our old SSM ways. Our marriage is excellent in every other aspect, as we truly are best friends, partners, co-parents and now proud grandparents, and our bond has never been stronger. We just struggle with the whole sexual relationship thing.
I have a minority viewpoint on the sex thing. Why can't the both of you "just do it" and enjoy it? Seems so hard, like there is so many discussions that need to take place etc, etc. Sex is meant to be enjoyed and if you care about the person that makes it so much better. Also in DB-land we found it's an extremely fast way to bond, it's how the WAS gets so close to the OP so fast!
You were extremely helpful to me in my sitch and I appreciate what you bring to these forums. I admire the no nonsense advice that you provide. It is invaluable.
((((((Pup))))))
I have always been so proud to call you a friend, never more so than at this exact moment.
Ditto, and thanks, Serenity.
You were extremely helpful to me in my sitch and I appreciate what you bring to these forums. I admire the no nonsense advice that you provide. It is invaluable.
Thank you, LITB -- that's a nice thing to say.
I just have to remember to remind people that THIS IS WHAT WORKED FOR ME, and be more tolerant of other views. Although I disagree with some of the softer stances, MWD was a lifesaver to me when I read Sex-Starved Marriage and realized "I was not alone," and I'm a big believer in the 180, the LRT, GALing and many of her other concepts, most notably being her overall "Do What Works!" philosophy.
Starsky
Thanks so much Starsky:
Does your W know you post here?
Has she read your threads or any of your posts?
Is she interested in posting her side?
Accuray
Yes, she knows I post here (Where do all these Facebook friends keep coming from? she'd ask me, lol)
No, I've never shown her my posts (although I would if she asked).
No, she doesn't want to post here. "I don't like people knowing my stuff," she says. I try to tell her that it's an ANONYMOUS message forum, but especially now that I have many links between my forum life and my IRL, I highly doubt she would.
Starsky
Starsky,
I really appreciate you posting this. It's really helpful to know what angle you're coming from.
Thanks again!
Starsky,
I really appreciate you posting this. It's really helpful to know what angle you're coming from.
Thanks again!
If you asked the fetching Mrs. Starsky, she'd say I came from an
obtuse angle.
Starsky
If you asked the fetching Mrs. Starsky, she'd say I came from an
obtuse angle.
* bite lip and say nothing, bite lip and say nothing, bite lip and say nothing *
Well, let's not get off on a tangent now . . .
The links work and for those that are new to DB if you then click on TOPICS CREATED in the upper right hand corner you will have all the topics list out neatly.
Ohh, WAY cool! I never knew you could do that!!!
8+ years and I learn something new.
Please stop.
Our WASs think we are square for not accepting their love triangle.
It's not a good idea to cosine any loans with them right now.
If you're going to confront an A, you should have "proof".
When we show up here, most of us are an emotional wrecktangle.
180s can be helpful. If they're effective, you may come full circle.
That should kill it.
(((bowing down))) "I'M NOT WORTHY! I'M NOT WORTTHHEEEEE....."
all this talk makes me hungry.....for pi
seriously thank you Starsky for being open and honest and sharing with all of us!!!
Starsky, I did want to say, great job on the reveal.
I do want to say that when it comes to taking a good hard look at what one believes in and living by those ethics, you rank right up in the #1 spot.
I know when you were posting to me, there was a lot of what you mentioned that did and still does hold true. FWIW, I very clearly went the route of "I will NOT live in an open M". And for better or for worse, I left the home (it really was the right choice at the time, from my perspective. Still believe it was, for me and the kids.)
That said, for me, that and finally getting to the meat and potatoes of DBing... didn't work, for me... Likely a lot of reasons, such as very little contact, my emotional roller coaster, the time it took to really start GALing.
And I do believe that, while I still very quietly state that my W MIGHT be MLC... my W's... state of mind... basically put her in a mindset that the M was over, which again for me was odd, because she avoided filing D and only reluctantly, and under pressure by me, we finally went the legal S route.
Yes... each sitch, even as things are similar in many sitches... is certainly unique...
BTW: I am glad you outed yourself as a pushover / nice guy...
Starsky, If your kids were 12 or younger at the time of your crisis, would you have acted the same way? Would you have been as willing to expose?
Accuray
Good of you to post that after knowing you for 19 months Starsky!
I know, I know.
Seriously, I was trying not to create any "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"-drama. But it's only fair to be transparent about it now, since people are asking me, and for the reasons I state in my post above.
And thanks for the nice note. I know I bust your balls on occasion (like today!
), but it's only because:
a. I care; and
b. I've been there (and to some degrees, still am).
I've had to learn a whole lot about myself -- and my wife -- over the past five years, and some of it hasn't been pretty. But I've learned that it's emotionally healthy to get to know -- and to learn how to deal with -- yourself and your spouse AS THEY ARE, and not as some image on a pedestal of how you WISH THEY WOULD BE (if only you were a good boy, and said and did all the right things).
It's tough stuff. But sooooooo worth it!!
Starsky
thank you for sharing so openly, Starsky, and for caring so much about helping others. that is one of the things that is so incredible about this site, the giving back. it reinforces for me, how tough this all really is, and how much strength it takes to dig deep within and confront our real selves and theirs. thanks.
Good of you to post that after knowing you for 19 months Starsky!
I know, I know.
Seriously, I was trying not to create any "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!"-drama. But it's only fair to be transparent about it now, since people are asking me, and for the reasons I state in my post above.
And thanks for the nice note. I know I bust your balls on occasion (like today!
), but it's only because:
a. I care; and
b. I've been there (and to some degrees, still am).
I've had to learn a whole lot about myself -- and my wife -- over the past five years, and some of it hasn't been pretty. But I've learned that it's emotionally healthy to get to know -- and to learn how to deal with -- yourself and your spouse AS THEY ARE, and not as some image on a pedestal of how you WISH THEY WOULD BE (if only you were a good boy, and said and did all the right things).
It's tough stuff. But sooooooo worth it!!
Starsky
I agree Starsky. And yes, I know that you always have good intentions and do care. Hell, why would you spend the time that you do here on this board if you didn't?! (I say this right now not having read your most recent 'busting of my balls' post that I assume is over on the piecing forum... LOL!)
I agree Starsky. And yes, I know that you always have good intentions and do care. Hell, why would you spend the time that you do here on this board if you didn't?! (I say this right now not having read your most recent 'busting of my balls' post that I assume is over on the piecing forum... LOL!)
Yep, it is waiting for you over there. So you may want to take it all back after you've read it.
I agree Starsky. And yes, I know that you always have good intentions and do care. Hell, why would you spend the time that you do here on this board if you didn't?! (I say this right now not having read your most recent 'busting of my balls' post that I assume is over on the piecing forum... LOL!)
Yep, it is waiting for you over there. So you may want to take it all back after you've read it.
Nah! I can take it. Keeps me on my toes!
a. I care; and
b. I've been there (and to some degrees, still am).
Is there any more to part b?
a. I care; and
b. I've been there (and to some degrees, still am).
Is there any more to part b?
No, LOL -- just meant to acknowledge that "Piecing" is a lifelong journey for a marriage. We also do still have SSM issues, but heck those have been going on for 20 years.
Cheers Pup.
You've been there and done it.
Brave to letting it all hang out.
Pay forward as you always have.
In an effort to be more transparent with everyone, and since I've been asked a lot of questions (by zig and others) about my own sitch, I decided to post a link to it, here.
I used to post under two different usernames -- at first, "Chocolateeyes," and then later as "Puppy Dog Tails." For reasons that I won't get into in a lot of detail, I was banned and had to change my username, and promise to follow the rules (no posting links to other marital helpsites, no links to other non-MWD books, no advocating exposure, etc.). It was my fault, agree or disagree this is MWD's site and we are here at her courtesy, and hence "Starsky" was born, and I've continued to try to help pay-it-forward as it were.
The problem is, there's no context for a lot of my advice -- no backstory to what worked for me, what didn't work, what mistakes I made and what successes I had (we ultimately saved our marriage, praise God!).
I hope this is OK, and if not I'll just ask the mods to delete this post, but here are my old threads:
Chocolateeyes:
Choc's old threads http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...osts&page=1Puppy Dog Tails:
Puppy's old threads http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=19113I hope those links work. I'd be happy to answer any questions. For reference, I got the bomb on 5/27/2007, and we reconciled (with some fits and starts) in late-August of that same year.
Here's my story, from my personal archives:
My Story:
I actually had two main confrontations with my wife. Initially, I had suspicions, based on the way she was acting and some of the things she was googling on the computer (I had a keylogger). Naturally, she denied it -- twice.
Then one night I was out of town, at my dad's 80th birthday party, and she stayed home with the kids. I got an e-mail on my BlackBerry from my keylogger, showing that she was searching "older woman/younger man" and "sexual positions" etc. on the home computer. I felt sick to my stomach, and like an ox was standing on my chest. I couldn't breathe, and I didn't know if I should tell my folks and my siblings, or try to keep it to myself.
I was up all night, distraught, and phoned my wife and confronted her around midnight. "You're up late," I said. "Yeah, I couldn't sleep," she replied. She sounded nervous. "What are you doing?" I asked, and she could tell something was wrong. "Just on the computer," she said. "What's wrong?"
(pause)
"Look, I know all about you and (OM's first name), and it needs to stop. Immediately. This is incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage, and to our family." She tried to deny it at first, but I persisted (without revealing my intel), saying "Please STOP IT. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's horribly disrespectful. If you're going to lie to me, I'm just going to hang up."
She then SORT of told me the truth, denying that it had become physical (which I later found out was also a lie).
I exposed to our adult daughters that night, via a phone call. My D-then-18 already knew, as she had suspected something and her and her best friend had followed her mother one night a couple of weeks ago, and caught her coming out of a bar with the guy, and saw them get into a car together. The poor thing had been keeping this all to herself, because she didn't want to upset her daddy. She broke down on the phone and cried, and so did I.
I told both her and her sister (D-then-20) that I loved their mother very much, did NOT want a divorce, but I also wasn't going tolerate this kind of disrespect. I WOULD NOT LIVE IN AN OPEN MARRIAGE. They both said they understood, and respected my position. D18 wanted to confront OM that next day, and I talked her down, and told them both just to wait until I got back from my trip and we could discuss it as a family.
I also exposed to my parents and siblings the next morning, as I felt I needed their support. In the ensuing couple of weeks, I gave my wife repeated chances to end the affair -- she refused 5-6x -- and then I finally exposed to her parents, OM's parents (he lived with his parents!) and their employer, on whose premises the affair was partly taking place. Since the kid was also studying to become a cop, and was going thru the Academy, I found out that there was a "public review" process and I wrote a letter to his file, exposing their affair, and opposing his candidacy to become a police officer.
About 50 days in, I filed for divorce, after she repeatedly threatened to divorce ME. I felt I needed to protect myself, and decided to go for full custody of our boys.
Despite all of this, and my tightening the finances to stop paying for anything that was enabling her affair (cellphone, plastic surgery payment, haircoloring, etc.), her affair continued -- heated up -- for 60 days. I then RE-confronted her, with the "NO MORE DECEIT" confrontation (it's all in my old Chocolateeyes threads; Summer of 2007). This re-confrontation took place in her car, in a department store parking lot, when I told her one evening that "we need to talk." I had decided that while I may not be able to stop her from having an affair, I damned sure wasn't going to let her continue to LIE about it to her parents and to our adult daughters, and try to say that I was being "paranoid" and accusing HER, when everything I was claiming was 100% TRUE.
I told her at this meeting "you either tell them, or I will, and I will show them my evidence."
I gave her 5 minutes to decide.
She told them.
It took about another month before she fully ended it and begged me to take her back, but make no mistake -- that night was basically the beginning of the death of her affair. She had one backslide, about 2 weeks into no-contact/transparency, which she self-confessed, and we got thru it. After two 3-month "stays" of the divorce action, I finally withdrew it the following Spring.
We had fits and starts over the next couple of years, nearing divorce twice (even met with the mediator), ending with a mutually-agreed-upon separation this summer, where we would try to date each other, but each would date other people (she had initially INSISTED on this, and I initially said it was a DEALBREAKER. I then changed my mind, based mostly on Gucci's and Robx's stuff on here). Not two weeks into that arrangement, she called me in tears (I was on my one and only "date"), and long story short, I moved back in with her and we agreed to MC and we fully reconciled.
We've had some tough moments, but our marriage is stronger than it's ever been. The MC is fantastic (had been my wife's IC), holds our feet to the fire, and we're finally starting to deal with some of our sex-starved marriage issues and my wife's problems with intimacy. Turns out MWD's books (along with Harley, Glass and some of my other faves) were all over the MC's office! I knew I had found the right place for us. My wife and I are better friends than we have ever been, have ML more in the past 3 months than we had in the past six YEARS, and I'd say we are "Piecing" at this point, to use the DB phrase.
I hope that helps. That's an awfully long answer to a short question, but I thought I'd just put it all out there.
Puppy
I should add as a P.S.
Throughout all of these "tough stances," I maintained a "loving detachment" towards my wayward wife. Oh, we had our moments -- three or four real blow-ups -- but for the most part, we managed to keep things civil. I laid out some boundaries (no family finances used to enable your affair, no TMing or phoning OM from inside our home, no TMing or phoning OM in front of our sons, from ANYWHERE, if you're going to come home after 1am, don't bother coming home, etc.), and I must say, she respected them almost completely.
The "loving" part of "loving detachment" comes easier for you, trust me, when you maintain full intel ("snooping") and you hear and see the things that I heard and saw. But I did try to "shine a light back towards the marriage, even as I never wavered from my Main Boundary ("I will not live in an open marriage") and my sub-boundaries mentioned above. I would do occasional loving Acts of Service for my wife, such as pulling her car in the garage late at nite, or covering her with a blanket when she fell asleep on the couch, kissing her on the forehead, etc.
I believe that this "hybrid" approach -- aggressive confrontation & exposure, firm boundaries, cut off all financial enabling, strong legal stance; coupled with DBing principles such as GAL, "be the better option," 180s, etc. -- is what works best when there is active infidelity involved.
Reasonable people may disagree, but this is what worked for me, and this is also what I have seen work in my time on these boards, as well as my study of literally thousands of affairs.
I apologize for any confusion, and for not providing this sooner. I really didn't want to add any more drama to the sitch, but I do want to be 100% honest with everyone now, warts and all.
Paul/Choc/Puppy/Starsky
To ALL of you. I suport you putting this out there. We don't agree on a TON of descriptions on here. I agree with your heart. You are one of the good guys.
Of course you can slam me back and probably will, but if you opened your mind and heart, this would be fixed. I personally believe you have had succes because you "
1)Are a great guy with a great heart
2) Are a leader
2) Just have some charisma...good looks, funny ness etc.
I believe you would be MORE THAN OUTSTANDING if you weren't so stubborn.
Pretty sure you can do better than a SSM. Have you seen the new movie with Meryl Streep...maybe it wouldn't relate, maybe it would.
So I'm sure you can and would enlighten me about myself
.
But...for what it's worth...Thank you for all you do here, the fetching Mrs. Puppy is lucky to have you as are all your kids.
There are 2 songs I think about you when I hear them, might not get the titles right, they are not on a clearchannel station, KLOVE:
"I will praise you in this storm"
"Lead ME" (might not be right title...Lead me with strong hands"...I'm sure you lead your family.
You iwll prevail, whether or not you detach.
And just saying.. as a woman in the age bracket...
Sometimes, I THINK... the SSM issues are about our physiology, about less estrogen and more relative testosterone, or whatever, and less parenting, more career goals. We are focused less on the relationship and more on our goals.
Like when you men were in your 35-40's and more interested in your career.
It MIGHT NOT be personal. Not that you should leave it at that... but it might not be the Puppy's charisma.
I support you taking back a name if you are interested in that. And you pick one.
So I'm sure you can and would enlighten me about myself
.
sg
Is there more to this?
Being that I am around your age too I sense something here?
And I am sure that PDT can enlighten us all although he is the YOUNG one of the group....
In an effort to be more transparent with everyone, and since I've been asked a lot of questions (by zig and others) about my own sitch, I decided to post a link to it, here.
I used to post under two different usernames -- at first, "Chocolateeyes," and then later as "Puppy Dog Tails." For reasons that I won't get into in a lot of detail, I was banned and had to change my username, and promise to follow the rules (no posting links to other marital helpsites, no links to other non-MWD books, no advocating exposure, etc.). It was my fault, agree or disagree this is MWD's site and we are here at her courtesy, and hence "Starsky" was born, and I've continued to try to help pay-it-forward as it were.
The problem is, there's no context for a lot of my advice -- no backstory to what worked for me, what didn't work, what mistakes I made and what successes I had (we ultimately saved our marriage, praise God!).
I hope this is OK, and if not I'll just ask the mods to delete this post, but here are my old threads:
Chocolateeyes:
Choc's old threads http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...osts&page=1Puppy Dog Tails:
Puppy's old threads http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=19113I hope those links work. I'd be happy to answer any questions. For reference, I got the bomb on 5/27/2007, and we reconciled (with some fits and starts) in late-August of that same year.
Here's my story, from my personal archives:
My Story:
I actually had two main confrontations with my wife. Initially, I had suspicions, based on the way she was acting and some of the things she was googling on the computer (I had a keylogger). Naturally, she denied it -- twice.
Then one night I was out of town, at my dad's 80th birthday party, and she stayed home with the kids. I got an e-mail on my BlackBerry from my keylogger, showing that she was searching "older woman/younger man" and "sexual positions" etc. on the home computer. I felt sick to my stomach, and like an ox was standing on my chest. I couldn't breathe, and I didn't know if I should tell my folks and my siblings, or try to keep it to myself.
I was up all night, distraught, and phoned my wife and confronted her around midnight. "You're up late," I said. "Yeah, I couldn't sleep," she replied. She sounded nervous. "What are you doing?" I asked, and she could tell something was wrong. "Just on the computer," she said. "What's wrong?"
(pause)
"Look, I know all about you and (OM's first name), and it needs to stop. Immediately. This is incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage, and to our family." She tried to deny it at first, but I persisted (without revealing my intel), saying "Please STOP IT. We both know you're lying to me right now, and it's horribly disrespectful. If you're going to lie to me, I'm just going to hang up."
She then SORT of told me the truth, denying that it had become physical (which I later found out was also a lie).
I exposed to our adult daughters that night, via a phone call. My D-then-18 already knew, as she had suspected something and her and her best friend had followed her mother one night a couple of weeks ago, and caught her coming out of a bar with the guy, and saw them get into a car together. The poor thing had been keeping this all to herself, because she didn't want to upset her daddy. She broke down on the phone and cried, and so did I.
I told both her and her sister (D-then-20) that I loved their mother very much, did NOT want a divorce, but I also wasn't going tolerate this kind of disrespect. I WOULD NOT LIVE IN AN OPEN MARRIAGE. They both said they understood, and respected my position. D18 wanted to confront OM that next day, and I talked her down, and told them both just to wait until I got back from my trip and we could discuss it as a family.
I also exposed to my parents and siblings the next morning, as I felt I needed their support. In the ensuing couple of weeks, I gave my wife repeated chances to end the affair -- she refused 5-6x -- and then I finally exposed to her parents, OM's parents (he lived with his parents!) and their employer, on whose premises the affair was partly taking place. Since the kid was also studying to become a cop, and was going thru the Academy, I found out that there was a "public review" process and I wrote a letter to his file, exposing their affair, and opposing his candidacy to become a police officer.
About 50 days in, I filed for divorce, after she repeatedly threatened to divorce ME. I felt I needed to protect myself, and decided to go for full custody of our boys.
Despite all of this, and my tightening the finances to stop paying for anything that was enabling her affair (cellphone, plastic surgery payment, haircoloring, etc.), her affair continued -- heated up -- for 60 days. I then RE-confronted her, with the "NO MORE DECEIT" confrontation (it's all in my old Chocolateeyes threads; Summer of 2007). This re-confrontation took place in her car, in a department store parking lot, when I told her one evening that "we need to talk." I had decided that while I may not be able to stop her from having an affair, I damned sure wasn't going to let her continue to LIE about it to her parents and to our adult daughters, and try to say that I was being "paranoid" and accusing HER, when everything I was claiming was 100% TRUE.
I told her at this meeting "you either tell them, or I will, and I will show them my evidence."
I gave her 5 minutes to decide.
She told them.
It took about another month before she fully ended it and begged me to take her back, but make no mistake -- that night was basically the beginning of the death of her affair. She had one backslide, about 2 weeks into no-contact/transparency, which she self-confessed, and we got thru it. After two 3-month "stays" of the divorce action, I finally withdrew it the following Spring.
We had fits and starts over the next couple of years, nearing divorce twice (even met with the mediator), ending with a mutually-agreed-upon separation this summer, where we would try to date each other, but each would date other people (she had initially INSISTED on this, and I initially said it was a DEALBREAKER. I then changed my mind, based mostly on Gucci's and Robx's stuff on here). Not two weeks into that arrangement, she called me in tears (I was on my one and only "date"), and long story short, I moved back in with her and we agreed to MC and we fully reconciled.
We've had some tough moments, but our marriage is stronger than it's ever been. The MC is fantastic (had been my wife's IC), holds our feet to the fire, and we're finally starting to deal with some of our sex-starved marriage issues and my wife's problems with intimacy. Turns out MWD's books (along with Harley, Glass and some of my other faves) were all over the MC's office! I knew I had found the right place for us. My wife and I are better friends than we have ever been, have ML more in the past 3 months than we had in the past six YEARS, and I'd say we are "Piecing" at this point, to use the DB phrase.
I hope that helps. That's an awfully long answer to a short question, but I thought I'd just put it all out there.
Puppy
I should add as a P.S.
Throughout all of these "tough stances," I maintained a "loving detachment" towards my wayward wife. Oh, we had our moments -- three or four real blow-ups -- but for the most part, we managed to keep things civil. I laid out some boundaries (no family finances used to enable your affair, no TMing or phoning OM from inside our home, no TMing or phoning OM in front of our sons, from ANYWHERE, if you're going to come home after 1am, don't bother coming home, etc.), and I must say, she respected them almost completely.
The "loving" part of "loving detachment" comes easier for you, trust me, when you maintain full intel ("snooping") and you hear and see the things that I heard and saw. But I did try to "shine a light back towards the marriage, even as I never wavered from my Main Boundary ("I will not live in an open marriage") and my sub-boundaries mentioned above. I would do occasional loving Acts of Service for my wife, such as pulling her car in the garage late at nite, or covering her with a blanket when she fell asleep on the couch, kissing her on the forehead, etc.
I believe that this "hybrid" approach -- aggressive confrontation & exposure, firm boundaries, cut off all financial enabling, strong legal stance; coupled with DBing principles such as GAL, "be the better option," 180s, etc. -- is what works best when there is active infidelity involved.
Reasonable people may disagree, but this is what worked for me, and this is also what I have seen work in my time on these boards, as well as my study of literally thousands of affairs.
I apologize for any confusion, and for not providing this sooner. I really didn't want to add any more drama to the sitch, but I do want to be 100% honest with everyone now, warts and all.
Paul/Choc/Puppy/Starsky
To ALL of you. I suport you putting this out there. We don't agree on a TON of descriptions on here. I agree with your heart. You are one of the good guys.
Of course you can slam me back and probably will, but if you opened your mind and heart, this would be fixed. I personally believe you have had succes because you "
1)Are a great guy with a great heart
2) Are a leader
2) Just have some charisma...good looks, funny ness etc.
I believe you would be MORE THAN OUTSTANDING if you weren't so stubborn.
Pretty sure you can do better than a SSM. Have you seen the new movie with Meryl Streep...maybe it wouldn't relate, maybe it would.
So I'm sure you can and would enlighten me about myself
.
But...for what it's worth...Thank you for all you do here, the fetching Mrs. Puppy is lucky to have you as are all your kids.
There are 2 songs I think about you when I hear them, might not get the titles right, they are not on a clearchannel station, KLOVE:
"I will praise you in this storm"
"Lead ME" (might not be right title...Lead me with strong hands"...I'm sure you lead your family.
You iwll prevail, whether or not you detach.
Thanks, SG. "Praise You in this Storm" is one of my all-time faves, and one that specifically helped me get thru my sitch. "Higher Ways" by Steven Curtis Chapman was another.
No slams from me; as Dave Mason sang, "There's only you and me, and we just disagree." I like my DBing like I like my politics: agree to disagree, agreeably.
I am trying to mindful of when my "disagreements" aren't DB-focused, and be respectful of those boundaries. There is much of DB/DR/SSM that I agree with, and can use to help here. I trust you'll let me know if/when I step over the line.
Starsky
I support you taking back a name if you are interested in that. And you pick one.
Thanks; I'll have to think about that. Most of the folks on here now know me as Starsky, so I'll probably just keep that, but it's nice to have the choice.
Starskydogchocolatetails
It MIGHT NOT be personal. Not that you should leave it at that... but it might not be the Puppy's charisma.
Oh I have absolutely zero doubts that this issue is primarily my wife's, and preceeds me by many years. As her husband, it obviously AFFECTS me, but it's very much not ABOUT me, I realize.
I am content, however, and try to focus on the many blessings that I do have in my life. I only throw it out there to be transparent, as it would be disingenous of me to portray my marriage as perfect. It's nearly-perfect in every other single area -- even special, among the many couples I know -- and yet deeply flawed in this one.
P
Well, I already knew this bit about you but I wanted to toss out there that I am so thankful for all of the support you have given me this past year. I feel like I am a completely different person than I was when I first joined, probably because I am. So selfishly, I am very glad you came back under a new name
In the NFL, there is a truism that says "great quarterbacks make great head coaches."
A really bright, ready, capable,
courageous student will always make their teacher look really smart.
Starsky
Welcome back!
You still on the other site?
Wow thanks Starsky!! That was so nice! And not long ago I would have disagreed with some of your adjectives, but these days I tend to agree. I had to be all of those things and continue to be
Welcome back!
You still on the other site?
No. Haven't posted there since July.
Well you were sorely missed here. Too bad we can't get a certain 'coach' too.
I know what you mean. He's the best!
coach is a marriagewarrior
As it's difficult to get around to everyone's thread, and since this one contains links to my own story, I think I'm going to try hanging out on this thread for awhile. I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has, with just a couple of requests.
I do NOT want to get into a debate with anyone about my approach. It is what worked for me -- nothing more, nothing less. I'm not going to recommend anything that's anti-DB, and in fact many of MWD's techniques have helped me greatly. I just don't want the meta "noise" to distract from trying to help anyone with their sitch.
I, in turn, will be 100% honest with you, warts and all. Maybe the mistakes I made can help someone else avoid them, or at least speed up their process a little bit, and hopefully the successes I had will be of help to someone.
thanks,
Starsky
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Absolutely. But many, most, times, they are leaving the LBS, or choosing an OP, because there has been something missing in their R with LBS. So they probably don't fear losing the LBS at the beginning. In those cases, gotta give them something to fear losing.
I don't disagree. I'm in favor of a short "Plan A" before going to bigger guns, esp. if you were legitimately an ass prior to the wayward spouse's infidelity.
Starsky,
This is the post I was referring too earlier. I was legitimately an ass lots of times in my marriage...i'll accept that. But you say a short plan A before going to the bigger guns....what are you referring to?
Thank you starsky for your openess and honesty and support you have given. You have helped me dig deeper
Busting
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Absolutely. But many, most, times, they are leaving the LBS, or choosing an OP, because there has been something missing in their R with LBS. So they probably don't fear losing the LBS at the beginning. In those cases, gotta give them something to fear losing.
I don't disagree. I'm in favor of a short "Plan A" before going to bigger guns, esp. if you were legitimately an ass prior to the wayward spouse's infidelity.
Starsky,
This is the post I was referring too earlier. I was legitimately an ass lots of times in my marriage...i'll accept that. But you say a short plan A before going to the bigger guns....what are you referring to?
"Plan B" (see Harley), or MWD's "After the Last Resort Technique." Pitch black (unless there are kids, in which case you'll have to go "dim" and not "dark"), separate yourself from the situation, hard boundaries (legal, financial, emotional, physical), threat of D if they don't turn away from the path they are on.
I haven't read your whole sitch, but I did read your first few posts when you joined here. Are you sure your wife isn't now genuinely in love with this guy? As you yourself stated, she doesn't seem like the usual confused/angry/bitter wayward we see here.
Starsky
Thank you starsky for your openess and honesty and support you have given. You have helped me dig deeper
Busting
You're very welcome, Busting.
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Absolutely. But many, most, times, they are leaving the LBS, or choosing an OP, because there has been something missing in their R with LBS. So they probably don't fear losing the LBS at the beginning. In those cases, gotta give them something to fear losing.
I don't disagree. I'm in favor of a short "Plan A" before going to bigger guns, esp. if you were legitimately an ass prior to the wayward spouse's infidelity.
Starsky,
This is the post I was referring too earlier. I was legitimately an ass lots of times in my marriage...i'll accept that. But you say a short plan A before going to the bigger guns....what are you referring to?
Carnac, the main point in the above is to have a period of time when your wayward spouse can see "the new you" before you draw any of the hardest boundaries. Don't get me wrong, I'm still a believer in some BASIC immediate boundaries (no screaming at you -- come back when you're ready to have a civil conversation; no texting OM right in front of you; no texting/sexting/phoning OM from inside the marital home, etc.), but you can't lay out an ultimatum to someone who thinks they don't want to be with you anyway.
I mean, think about it: you say "Well, I WILL NOT LIVE IN AN OPEN MARRIAGE! If you want to come back to the marriage, I'll need to have X, Y and Z from you!" If you haven't demonstrated any improvements, and if your wife is still happily affairing, she's going to say "Who said anything about wanting to come back to the marriage???"
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Absolutely. But many, most, times, they are leaving the LBS, or choosing an OP, because there has been something missing in their R with LBS. So they probably don't fear losing the LBS at the beginning. In those cases, gotta give them something to fear losing.
I don't disagree. I'm in favor of a short "Plan A" before going to bigger guns, esp. if you were legitimately an ass prior to the wayward spouse's infidelity.
Starsky,
This is the post I was referring too earlier. I was legitimately an ass lots of times in my marriage...i'll accept that. But you say a short plan A before going to the bigger guns....what are you referring to?
Carnac, the main point in the above is to have a period of time when your wayward spouse can see "the new you" before you draw any of the hardest boundaries. ... but you can't lay out an ultimatum to someone who thinks they don't want to be with you anyway.
I mean, think about it: you say "Well, I WILL NOT LIVE IN AN OPEN MARRIAGE! If you want to come back to the marriage, I'll need to have X, Y and Z from you!" If you haven't demonstrated any improvements, and if your wife is still happily affairing, she's going to say "Who said anything about wanting to come back to the marriage???"
THAT is exactly right Carnac. It is what I had to do to get to a point that I could lay down a hard line. I had to do it for a very long time. And it was the hardest thing that I have ever done.
By the time that I got through the "plan A" part of things, I found that I was truly comfortable being DONE. I no longer felt guilt about how I had treated W during our M/R because I felt that I had done everything that I could to make amends and to show her that I was NOT the person who had treated her poorly.
I was fine with either outcome.
When you get there... you know that you are going to be okay.
By the time that I got through the "plan A" part of things, I found that I was truly comfortable being DONE. I no longer felt guilt about how I had treated W during our M/R because I felt that I had done everything that I could to make amends and to show her that I was NOT the person who had treated her poorly.
I was fine with either outcome.
When you get there... you know that you are going to be okay.
Starsky
Denver and Starsky:
Thanks to you both.....im feeling more encouraged this morning than I have in a while. Even though my sitch has been going on 9 weeks or so, its only just now really starting in my mind. I reason that because school starts back for the boys, real life begins, and I didnt truly go very dark until just a couple of days ago. I've done NC all along, but at the time it was because she asked for space and I wanted to respect that. This time its my choice to go dark and I think there will probably be a difference in the two. At the very least there will be a difference in my mind between the two and that has to show up in any non-verbal communication.
And as much as i've hated to admit this all along, I am at least somewhat hopeful that a couple months of me going dark will be a benefit to me becoming ok either way. If it serves to do that as well then it will be a double bonus in my mind.
You are looking at it the right way, Carnac. Stay the course, and remember, "dark" is for YOU -- not to elicit some sort of reaction out of her. Use this time as a gift to work on yourself, and getting your mojo back.
Starsky
By the time that I got through the "plan A" part of things, I found that I was truly comfortable being DONE. I no longer felt guilt about how I had treated W during our M/R because I felt that I had done everything that I could to make amends and to show her that I was NOT the person who had treated her poorly.
I was fine with either outcome.
When you get there... you know that you are going to be okay.
Starsky
Ahh!!! The infamous ACCEPTANCE stage!!
I too have hit the ACCEPTANCE stage, although I still bounce back to the Anger & Depression stage once in awhile. I do not believe though, that you have to lose hope when you hit the Acceptance stage like all of the experts say! I believe that my Acceptance stage, is when I truly have learned what "Let Go & Let God" means.
But make no mistake, as Denver & Starsky will tell you: You will still bounce around a bit. I still firmly want Marriage Restoration & my W back, but not if it means going back to the same old things like before.
My 2 cents, although I haven't been on the board very long
Suppo
Starsky - I'm truly in awe of you! And what you did. And the awesome result.
Thanks so much for your ongoing help. I now see exactly where it's coming from.
And to have known you through two reincarnations is a privilege.
Thank you boed!
Mac
Starsky:
Just wanted to seek out your thread and thank you so much for this post on alkalinethoughts thread.
I'm beginning to realize that whatever marital problems I may have, that I really need to get to the root of and begin to address my own PERSONAL contributions to the dysfunction. And what I'm asking for help with is, what is it about me that would make me want to continue to pursue someone who is cheating on me, and why does it make me so sad that -- even in her CURRENT DESTRUCTIVE PATH -- I can't be with her? I want to figure this out, and learn to lay out and enforce healthier boundaries and build healthier self-esteem, so that WHATEVER my wife decides to do about THIS marriage, I will be healthier in my FUTURE relationships. Is it co-dependence, or something else
again i've said before I really don't know if my wife is involved with someone or not b/c I honestly haven't snooped this time. I know at one time she was in an EA, but have no idea right now where any of that stands, but I still really needed to read this, im going to see my Ic tomorrow and I thnk that you could replace the 'continuing to pursue someone who is cheating on me' with continuing to pursue someone who clearly wants nothing to do with me...continuing to pursue someone who is intent on tearing our family apart, or any other number of lines and it has the same resonance in my mind.
So tomorrow when I see my IC im going to give him some variation of those and then tell him lets get to work on what inside of me allows myself to be treated in that way.
Thanks again Starsky
Yes, you've got it right, Carnac. Whether or not there is an affair, it still is the same dynamic: "Why do I so badly want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with ME?" It may be simple co-dependency, but it could be other underlying issues, but I still firmly believe that unless you solve THIS, you are destined for relationship failure no matter what. Either your walkaway/wayward spouse will come back to you, and since you still haven't addressed this issue you will once again push them away with your neediness . . . .or . . . you will D, and you will repeat the same dysfunction in your next (and next, and next, and . . .) one.
Ok, this is from long ago, but I have been wondering about your sitch and here we are. Sometimes its hard here, since I did take a firmer line than most. I set similar boundries while H was home and he did end the affair, but wouldn't defriend OW on FB and be transparent so I said I needed those things or we need to S.
I need to see these harder lines, because we a month into S and I see both movement towards me...and then he freaks and has to remind me that our M can end. Really? I'm pretty sure I'm aware of that.
Anyway, I really enjoyed reading your sitch. Now on to Denver's. I hear his is similar.
Ok, this is from long ago, but I have been wondering about your sitch and here we are. Sometimes its hard here, since I did take a firmer line than most. I set similar boundries while H was home and he did end the affair, but wouldn't defriend OW on FB and be transparent so I said I needed those things or we need to S.
I need to see these harder lines, because we a month into S and I see both movement towards me...and then he freaks and has to remind me that our M can end. Really? I'm pretty sure I'm aware of that.
Anyway, I really enjoyed reading your sitch. Now on to Denver's. I hear his is similar.
Thanks for checking out my sitch, Tallula. I'm glad you got something out of it. Denver was definitely more patient than I was, but he was also very firm on "I can't be in your life so long as OM is," too.
I'll try to stop by your thread, as I haven't really followed your sitch.
Starsky/Chocolateeyes/Puppy Dog Tails
Thanks! He is supposedly done with OW. I didn't ask about him dating when it was decided we would separate. But H offered up that this S wasn't for him to date other people, but work on himself. I know that he could be seeing her, or someone else for that matter. I just chose to not ask. I, however, did set the boundary that we would not be dating each other or having sex (because I am a woman who can do this and not get attached. I happend to have a ridiculously large drive and I'm pregnant to boot. I have no idea how this man had the time/energy to cheat
) until he did offer transparency and defriend her on FB.
But H offered up that this S wasn't for him to date other people, but work on himself.
I'm sure by now, you realize this is standard wayward "script" . . . right?
It's right up there with "If anything, OM/OW is GAY, I think" and "We're just friends" and "You're so controlling!"
Well, he confessed the A to me, so they were never "just friends", But I'm controlling, especially when I told him that I needed transparency & the FB defriend. Oh, and we have always fought...and he never loved him...oh wait, he did...wait, he didn't...we always fought...I don't love him...the kids will be fine
um, he never loved ME...but he's thrown out that I don't love him either
But I'm controlling, especially when I told him that I needed transparency & the FB defriend.
It's never "controlling" when you're merely stating what your boundaries are. If they are REAL BOUNDARIES OF PERSONAL INTEGRITY (and not just some tactic you're using), and they really ARE dealbreakers for you in a marriage . . . then wouldn't you be doing your own spouse a
disservice if you
didn't let them know?
Besides, when they're wayward (or recently wayward, and still screwed up chemically), SOMEBODY has to be the one to put some "controls" on the marital relationship, until they're acting more in the best interests of the marriage, don'tchathink?
Starsky
It's never "controlling" when you're merely stating what your boundaries are. If they are REAL BOUNDARIES OF PERSONAL INTEGRITY (and not just some tactic you're using), and they really ARE dealbreakers for you in a marriage . . . then wouldn't you be doing your own spouse a disservice if you didn't let them know?
Let me put this another way, with something from my personal archives:
To me, that's the beauty of boundaries, or -- as I like to call them -- "My Boundaries of Personal Integrity." Only YOU know what they are, but they should be a very short list; your "dealbreakers," as it were . . . those things that you, as a person with your values, morals and ethics, simply CANNOT ABIDE.
And this is how it works, in practical application: If you decide that "I will not live in an open marriage," and you state that as a boundary to a cheating spouse, and if that drives them away from you, and toward the other person? Well, then that's THEIR CHOICE, and them cheating -- and staying with me -- wasn't an option for me anyway, based on my own authenticity and values, so what have I lost?
All I've lost in that instance is something that I could not have abided anyway.
"You must choose between her or me" is an ULTIMATUM. It's about THEM.
Boundaries should be about YOU -- "I will not live in an open marriage." It's then up to the other person to decide what to DO with that information you've now shared with them, lovingly and firmly.
Exactly! That man is so all over the place, I just had to calmly speak my truth, for me. It wasn't to get him to do anything. It was so I could look at myself in the mirror. I just said, here is what I need or we need to S. He flipped out at first, that's when he said I was controlling. Later he admitted that, of course it isn't controlling and he wants to be able to do those things, but he can't. Whatever. I believe he would have continued to be all over the place at our house and I would be crazy and there we would be. Both crazy. Not moving. This way, I can work on me, he can do whatever the heck he is doing.
It was less scary when I knew in my heart that I had to be true to me. For me.
Now the work is keeping his crazy from pervading my thinking. I had some backslides this weekend. Sobbed infront of him. I really hate being pregnant! If only he had told me 2 weeks earlier. Yeah.
[quote=Starsky309]
Boundaries should be about YOU -- "I will not live in an open marriage." It's then up to the other person to decide what to DO with that information you've now shared with them, lovingly and firmly.
[/i]
This is what I think so many people miss. It's about YOU. I refused to live in an open marriage. He was on the couch. He "ended it", decided to move back into the bedroom. Then I see he is still FB friends and was being secretive with his phone. I calmly said, "I can't work on this M without the defriend and access to your phone."
What was I losing? Trying to piece together am M built on lies? No thanks. Let's take a time out, see where it shakes out. I mean, it's easier said than done, but I don't regret my setting boundaries. Not at all.
I respect the heck out of that, Tallula.
Oh, and the BIG thing...he has said multiple times how attractive my strong stances have made me in his eyes. He still gets mad at first. Then when he calms down, comes him tryin' to make the moves...
Now if I did it all arguing, explaining, crazy lady, we know where that gets us
I respect the heck out of that, Tallula.
Thanks! It was tough, especially with the young ages of my kids and being knocked up. But, I'm ok.
Oh, and the BIG thing...he has said multiple times how attractive my strong stances have made me in his eyes. He still gets mad at first. Then when he calms down, comes him tryin' to make the moves...
Yep. Basic laws of human attraction. We value most what takes us EFFORT to get!
Understand that as TIME goes by your desire will
also change.
This is VERY true, and should really be factored into your decision-making, Grey. On a scale from 1-to-10, with "10" being "Totally Frustrating and Unacceptable!" I would say that 15 years ago, this issue was a "9.5" for me. 10 years ago it was still about a "7".
Now? Probably a "2" or a "3," honestly. With the other challenges and joys in our lives right now from health issues with elderly parents, the birth of grandchildren and everything in-between, the companionship, friendship, respect and loyalty from my wife is more important to me than the sex. She's a wonderful cook, a phenomenal mother to our four children, absolutely DEVOTED to her parents and the strongest woman I know. She's my best friend, and I can't think of anyone I'd rather go thru this stage of my life with, and I'm SO glad I stuck this marriage out thru both our SSM and her affair 7 years ago.
Food for thought.
Starsky
Thanks for sharing this.
I can honestly say that in the 4 and half years that I have "known" you, this numbering system makes more sense about YOU.
I guess I am trying to say that I have noticed posting changes that maybe reflect a more emotional less testosterone driven approach.
Of course this is all completely natural.
You know with age comes great wisdom!