It's been a slow journey with an H that one day seemingly inexplicably said he wanted to separate and has remained steadfast in that statement ever since. He's stayed in the home and we haven't said anything to the kids, but he blew off reading and blew off counseling and now that the required year has passed he is gathering papers and talking about getting a separation agreement drawn up.
I used to wonder at the posters here who talked about all the "hard work" they were doing and all the "big changes" they were making. I felt like an imposter because I just didn't feel like I was working hard or making changes. I was hurting and learning and trying and developing new perspective, but I just wasn't sure it was enough, and it really didn't seem as extreme as what I heard others here talking about.
Now I look back and I feel like a rock that's been eroded to sand by the ocean waves. I feel different, I act different, I think the changes are very subtle. I still look around and have a messy house sometimes, but I think about that differently than before and I have different tools to manage that predilection with my family's needs. I didn't become Mrs. Clean but I became someone who could get along with Mr. Clean.
My sitch seems to be progressing toward divorce, which I feel is sad but I don't feel is tragic anymore. I would love to be able to create a new and better R with my H, but I can't do it by myself. I'm not pushing him out the door, but I'm not pursuing him either. I'm just focusing on my new bootcamp goals of getting fit and clarifying my boundaries. I think my M's only chance right now is if H begins to notice that our life together has been consistently different and better for a long time now, and he begins to want that more than whatever it is he's been seeking. I have no control over what he notices or decides.
I would note to newcomers that the help you get comes from what you go after. Read other threads, even going back to the beginning of some of the vets to see how they changed over time, and learn from that. Post to others to provide support to them and reinforce what you're working on. Read DB/DR. Don't expect the vets to come to you and fix your problems. Everything you need is right here already.
Here are my older posts:
Hoping Friends Can Return To LoversHoping 2Hoping 3Hoping 4Living With No ExpectationsIn-Home Separation, One Year PointIn-Home Separation, One Year Point 2Month 13: telling kids and going public
copied over from my last thread:
Question for you, on #3, how did you get your H to take part? Was he part of any IC sessions that brought this up or is he just following your example of staying calm and looking for solutions?
The reason I ask is both my W and I have avoided conflict a lot in our M. I grew up in an environment where no conflict was the goal and appeasement was used to calm things down (dad to mom). W grew up in an verbally abusive environment (some physical maybe) where it seems a "duck and run" approach worked. So now for W, its either avoide or blow up. Any thoughts on how to engage her in an actual conversation? Paging Dr. Ad.....
My H grew up with no conflict - he did everything he was supposed to (possibly out of fear) and his dad not being there appears to have taught him to walk away and shut people out. He learned to hide his emotions and protect himself.
I grew up oppositional and defiant in the face of authority and control. I thought I was comfortable in conflict but really was just reactive and fed a vicious cycle rather than resolving anything.
H went to counseling with me about 3 times or so, and just those times gave me enough insight to go on with meeting with IC alone, and we'd kick around and role play situations that had occurred between me and H so I could reframe them and learn how to respond more effectively. She prescribed reading that helped too.
My consistently changing how I approached and responded to H made a difference. I learned not to fear opening up a conversation of potential conflict. I learned a conflict doesn't have to be resolved in one conversation - I can hear his viewpoint and come back later with mine. A lot of our conflicts have turned out to be that we see things differently and each think the way we see it is obviously right. It's been a learning curve for me to get used to my worldview not being the only correct one. Because I was pretty sure it was.
With the family counseling sessions, I discussed some concerns with H about the kids interactions - bullying, overeating, possible self esteem issues - and with the impending D I felt it was important to get them in to get used to the idea of counseling and see if our family could learn to communicate more effectively. My IC told me she had done "family meeting" education with other clients and thought that's what we needed. H was on board with that idea because it was for the kids, although he had recently told me that MC with me was a very low priority for him. So H showed up and participated well in both the family sessions.
IC talked to us about being respectful (even Dad) and everyone letting each other be heard (even s12). She suggested that the family together can come up with innovative solutions and provide necessary feedback to each other. The family was supposed to come up with its own groundrules. It was a little touchy-feely for my testosterone laden family but they suffered through it and I have seen it making a bit of a difference in how we talk to each other. One thing that came out of the family session is that S14 has trouble taking me seriously because I laugh and kid even when I'm disciplining him, so we came up with ways I could let him know when I was really being serious. That was feedback I don't know if I'd have gotten without the IC session. It was cool.
CES I believe that just my learning better techniques made it possible for me and H to communicate better, without his thinking it was necessary and without his going to IC or seeking any help on his side. I learned to read his signals better and understand him better, and so communicating is safer for him. He hated when I yelled and got emotional, and I didn't know how not to. Now I can bring something up and let him know I'm not going to freak out.
Thanks Ad, much appreciated.
And by the way, you inspired me another way. I talked to a co-worker of mine who offered to teach me how to swim. I can get from one end of a pool to the other but that's about it. I work for a funraising organization and we do quite a few sports fundraisers. This guy coordinates a lot of them. He was tryign to talk me into doing a tri in the spring and I told him I'm a lousy swimmer so he offered to coach me. That was a month ago. So yesterday I told him when his busy season was over, I'd like to take him up on the offer!
Ad,
I haven't posted to you in a while but I have been reading along.
I see a lot of pats on the back for all that you have accomplished and while I think you have come a long way, there is still so much more...
You posted about wondering about the "work" that others talk about doing on here...
You are at the beginning of that now I think.
Or at least ready for it.
You are seeing the "butterfly effect" that your learning better communication patterns is having in your conversations with your H.
That is wonderful. Even if it doesn't lead to reconcilitation, better communication tools are a wonderful thing to have.
I like your bootcamp idea... I have waited a long time to see you begin to actually focus on yourself.
So where are you going from here?
Thanks Cat04! I don't know where I'm going from here, or at least I don't know what you're getting at but I have a few things going on.
1) Keeping my bootcamp going. It is a) helping me learn goal setting and goal achieving, b) tackling some of the things that were wrong with both me and consequently my marriage, c) improving my mental/emotional state, and d) keeping my mind off my sitch so I can just BE in it. I'm planning to continue modifying my goals to suit my purposes and as my ability increases.
2) Continuing the DB things that are working for me. They include detaching myself from my H's emotions and actions. Getting a life (I have travel coming up, I created a guitar meetup and have our second meeting coming up, I'm making plans with friends and other plans with my kids, am looking at dancing with my sister in the fall). I lent my DB book to my sister so when I get it back I'll plan to reread it with a beginners mind and see what it says to me now.
3) Preparing to protect my and my children's interests as my H proceeds toward D. I have a meeting next week with a financial counselor who specializes in setting women up post-divorce by helping guide their decisions through divorce, and I have gathered all the documents and numbers she needs to get started working with me. I have a L in my back pocket who I plan to call when H schedules mediation or presents me with a draft separation agreement. I met with him last year and like him. I ordered both a book on things I'll need to know about getting divorced and the often recommended Codependent No More to brush up on my relationship skills.
4) Continuing to see my IC every two weeks. She's become more of a life counselor for me since I'm the only one who goes to her. I use her to help me learn to identify and cope with my emotions, parent my kids, get along with my H, succeed at work, heal scars from childhood, you name it. She's priceless.
5) Continuing to work at my half of my M. Understanding, listening, and being compassionate toward my H. We have a weekly "date" to talk about whatever we need to talk about, something we've never done before in 20 years. I'm still working on the things he reflected to me that I wanted to improve - procrastination, keeping to deadlines, keeping a neater home, being less reactive and overemotional, and more. While I feel working on this improves our home life considering we still live together, it's worth doing even if our marriage is dead. It's also stuff I know reduces some of the reasons he resented me so it could show him marriage to me will be different and better. And finally, even if he leaves forever it leaves me a better person and happier with myself.
So that's where I think I'm going. Is that the kind of thing you meant by your question though?
Adinva,
wow! I am soo impressed and inspired by your posts and your progress!
I love the idea of you doing the bootcamp on your own. I might copy you. Even though my sitch is old, I feel like I need to start from scratch again - re-read DR book, set goals, be accountable, do new things, detach from H, accept my sitch, etc.
You give me so much to think about. I will keep following your amazing progress and wish you continued success!
You are amazing!
As of today I have a new mailbox address, checking and savings accounts in my name, credit and debit cards, and financial advisor. And I got a root canal. Quite a day.
I read my book cover to cover (He Had It Coming) and thought it provided good advice and information about worst-case scenarios to plan for. There was a bit of vindictiveness in it but it was easy to read around that. Tomorrow I meet with IC.
My H was in Chicago while I took S14 and his friend to the beach for a long weekend, and to meet up with my DB friends. It was so fun! I didn't communicate with H all weekend, and very little when I got home. Was friendly but not overly talkative.
Since then I have shared more about things we did like the deep sea fishing where we caught and ate our dinner. I haven't heard anything about H's friends in Chicago yet.
Today when H got home we talked a lot more. I let him know I had met and liked the financial planner. I told him a couple of things she complimented that I knew he was proud of, like our no-debt and our savings. She agreed with him that we don't need to involve a second lawyer, and she agreed with him that our sitch was financially pretty straightforward. She thought I had gathered good information and good advice so far.
I let H know that she had advised I start establishing a financial identity in my own name and that I was going to start putting my direct deposit into an account in my own name, and he was fine with that. I let him know it would be transparent and still joint funds, so he would know I wasn't trying anything underhanded. He seemed fine with it. I'm glad I had a chance to tell him before he noticed the paychecks missing.
H leaves tomorrow for Utah and I will take S14 to lax camp at Navy, then on Saturday S12 returns from boy scout camp and I might take him to the beach where a friend of mine from high school and college is visiting, up in New Jersey. I'll have to come back Monday to pick up S14 and get him to another lax camp.
That means Friday night I'll have no H and no boys home. Thinking about either going out or, for a change, staying in. I need to see Bridesmaids still.
Good for you for getting your financial stuff in order, AD!
You do stay busy! Glad the meeting with the financial advisor went well. Enjoy your evening with whatever you decide to do!
I bagged the trip to NJ because I felt my stress level was just too high. Slept in and wandered around my empty house, watched some movies that made me feel better, and just waited out my malaise. Now I'm sitting in Annapolis waiting for S14's camp to let out.
H is as usual incommunicado on his trip to UT. I didn't know when he arrived OK, or how he's been doing. But we got an email from the scouts warning that there was a case of lice at camp, and I got an instant email from H "You need to shave S12's head. I can't believe they let a kid with lice go to camp." Hello honey.
I wrote back with S12's response - he didn't go near the hammock city where the lice case was, nothing touched his head other than his hat and his sleeping bag, and we don't see anything in his already buzz-cut hair, so we think he's fine, signed Love, all of us. And a PS about a gas leak we had that got repaired.
I used to try to control H by asking him to contact us when he was away, by reaching out to contact him, and by getting upset when he didn't seem interested in talking to us. He always acted like talking on the phone to me was actually painful, and he often hung up while I was still talking, if I paused too long; he was just so anxious to get off the phone. It wasn't until I heard him chitchat on the phone with others that I resented this. I see so many people on these message boards who actually like and want to check in with their spouses now and then. I would like that for me too.
"I used to try to control H by asking him to contact us when he was away, by reaching out to contact him, and by getting upset when he didn't seem interested in talking to us. He always acted like talking on the phone to me was actually painful, and he often hung up while I was still talking, if I paused too long; he was just so anxious to get off the phone. It wasn't until I heard him chitchat on the phone with others that I resented this"
AD this^^^^use to happen to me. ExW did not like to chat on the phone with me but ok with others. I know how it feels.
"I used to try to control H by asking him to contact us when he was away, by reaching out to contact him, and by getting upset when he didn't seem interested in talking to us. He always acted like talking on the phone to me was actually painful, and he often hung up while I was still talking, if I paused too long; he was just so anxious to get off the phone. It wasn't until I heard him chitchat on the phone with others that I resented this"
AD this^^^^use to happen to me. ExW did not like to chat on the phone with me but ok with others. I know how it feels.
Well just so you know. There is a commercial on where a husband has to "endure" listening to his wife for 5 seconds on the phone. By the end of the call he is sweating bullets.
This thread has been very helpful to me. Thank you.
Thanks for posting on my thread! Rick1963, sorry your W treated you like that on the phone too. I thought it was kind of a guy thing not to like chatting on the phone, and I'm kind of phone averse too, it's just a awkward medium for me. But it hurts to know that it's not them, it's you (they just don't want to talk to you). You deserve better, me too.
So. H called today around 4. The boys have been asking when he'd be home. I knew it was today sometime but expected it to be late. At 4 he calls and says "Did you go to Cape May?" Um, no, changed my mind about it, why? He said he was at the airport but had his friend coming to pick him up and was wondering if he needed to get home to feed the dogs. I said no, we're home, we're fine. So he went from the airport to out to dinner with his friend and we saw him around 8 or so.
I was in the kitchen on my laptop so I said a friendly hello and talked a little from the kitchen but H went in the living room and S12 told him a bunch of stories from summer camp. S14 came up from the basement around 9 for some Chinese food and H had some food with the boys and S14's friend.
There's no connection with me, and I'm not pushing for one. I'm just kind of sad that it's just not there.
However, 2, just for you. This morning I took an extra half hour and made our MBR and bathroom look spiffy. I MADE the bed. Which we never do. I just kept looking to see if the room looked like a nice place to be, and cleaned it until it did. I almost took a picture for fb. I saved the dishes because I had to get to work, but after work with the extra time bought by H not coming directly home, I did get all the pots and pans washed and shined up the kitchen island and put some fruit out. I kept thinking, would this look nice to come home to, and cleaned until I thought it did.
I mainly did it because of a conversation with 2 recently, but I also did it for H. It was a little deflating to have it not noticed, but the lack of criticism is high praise in this situation. So I'll take it that I did good. I also straightened up the living room until I saw that it would look comfortable to sit on the couch (ie, no remotes, pocketknives, lacrosse gloves, or shoes on the couch) - and H did sit there when he got home so I was glad I made the effort.
What I think of this is it's exercising my interest in extending myself for my spouse, as opposed to bending over backwards to please him. It's more about pleasing myself by being a giving person. I feel like one of my flaws that I'm working on is to be more naturally giving. So it doesn't really matter if I get no reward from H.
Oh yeah, also we had that agreement that I'd get the birdcage and hamster stuff out of the garage by the end of July. I should have and could have tried to have a yard sale but my weekends have been booked solid and I've been dragging a lot lately, so I just loaded it in my car and moved it over to my office so I can sell it on Craigslist. No excuses. It's out of the garage on time as promised.
Not much to report on my bootcamp. I've taken about a week off, since going to visit friends at the beach. I came home tired, and started a 'hamster wheel' of too much work and being pulled in too many directions, and H out of town so no help. I gave in to myself and let myself slack off for a week, and I'm sure the scale will show it. Tomorrow, I get myself back on track. Every day is a new beginning.
It's more about pleasing myself by being a giving person. I feel like one of my flaws that I'm working on is to be more naturally giving. So it doesn't really matter if I get no reward from H.
^^This is one of the best things I've discovered in this process, too. Good for you
MIL called today to ask what I was doing for my birthday this weekend. My sister invited me rafting on Saturday, and on Sunday I have my guitar meetup, so I suggested Sunday early dinner, but found out MIL's not available and we'll get together some other time. She asked what was going on in our sitch, and said she was afraid to ask H and he doesn't volunteer any info.
I told her it was not going real well, that our year separation was done and it was just a matter of paperwork now, and H seems to be determined that this is what he wants to do. I told her there hasn't been any point of no return and if he wanted to work on things we would, but it didn't look promising. I suggested that she could feel free to ask him questions, he'd answer them and wouldn't likely be swayed either way by her input. He and I talk weekly and he's somewhat open, at least about the administrative details, so I wanted her to feel like she could talk to him and not just me.
I told her things were friendly between us and that I would be sure that nothing changed between her and the kids. She said I was a very strong and good person for putting up with this. I said if he weren't who he was I might not have; he's certainly a good person too. She suggested that I was being so good about this that I should talk to Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, and she suggested that they got their D so fast maybe we could too. I let that slide as kind of random blathering. I don't think she was trying to offend me. I'm not even quite sure what her point was about that.
I feel like it's hard to talk unemotionally about this stuff with her, but it's probably harder for her and I can take it. So I try to answer her questions as objectively as I can so she can feel less anxious about what's going to happen.
Enjoy your weekend. Rafting sounds like fun! So what day is your birthday?
IMO, its good that you are able to talk to your MIL about the sitch in a factual way.
As far as the "Tom & Katie" thing, my guess is there's a compliment in there for how you're handling things and maybe the "speed" comment is that she just wants you to be able to have this over with and move on. Its kind of how those close to us may want us to give in and move on because seeing us work on our Ms is long, drawn out and uncomfortable for them to observe.
Take care!
However, 2, just for you. This morning I took an extra half hour and made our MBR and bathroom look spiffy. I MADE the bed. Which we never do. I just kept looking to see if the room looked like a nice place to be, and cleaned it until it did. I almost took a picture for fb. I saved the dishes because I had to get to work, but after work with the extra time bought by H not coming directly home, I did get all the pots and pans washed and shined up the kitchen island and put some fruit out. I kept thinking, would this look nice to come home to, and cleaned until I thought it did.
I mainly did it because of a conversation with 2 recently, but I also did it for H. It was a little deflating to have it not noticed, but the lack of criticism is high praise in this situation. So I'll take it that I did good. I also straightened up the living room until I saw that it would look comfortable to sit on the couch (ie, no remotes, pocketknives, lacrosse gloves, or shoes on the couch) - and H did sit there when he got home so I was glad I made the effort.
What I think of this is it's exercising my interest in extending myself for my spouse, as opposed to bending over backwards to please him. It's more about pleasing myself by being a giving person. I feel like one of my flaws that I'm working on is to be more naturally giving. So it doesn't really matter if I get no reward from H.
A,
Why did you not do this stuff for yourself?
Personally, I am a bit of an OCD neatfreak.
What that means to me, is that when I clean, I'm crazy about it. Everything has to be just so, so it is like spring cleaning everyday.
Something that has happened to me in recent years, is that there are days when I just can't do it, so I don't. Which means that very little gets done by me. In general, it makes me feel badly about myself when I allow myself to slack.
I am working on coming to a point where I can do SOME and be happy with it, because the reality of life is that I don't have the time to be compulsive about it every day (I never really did and that is probably why I was so tired all of the time).
My point is this (sorry for the ramble)...
While my SO appreciates it and actually prefers it when I go into "clean mode", I don't do it for him. I do it because it is how I want things to be and a happy side effect is that it makes him happy and keeps his frustration level lower. There is nothing like coming home from work to a clean house. It gives you a few moments to just breath.
So tell me, does the clutter bother you? What are your feelings about the unmade bed? Do you feel differently when it's clean?
And please, don't tell me how your H feels, or how you feel based on his reaction...
How did you feel before he got home?
Is this something worth continuing for YOU?
Hi Cat04. I put straightening up below other things. I have a maid service that comes in regularly so everything is deeply clean and straightened out each time they come, but in between, I do as I have time to do if it's just for me. And with H out of town, S14 needing drop off and pickup 45 minutes away twice a day all week, my annual audit taking up all of my regular worktime and a major database project and teleconferences taking up even more, I would rather just ignore the clutter until the weekend.
This is a fundamental difference between me and H. H is a neat freak, and I learned in our MC that he actually seems to be stressed out and uncomfortable in a cluttered house and afraid to say anything because 'it's not his place to tell me what to do' and then it comes out in anger and passive aggression anyway to nit-picking and general yelling at everyone. I really didn't know he didn't understand my viewpoint, and I didn't understand his before.
In order for me to come home to a clean house, I would need to come down harder on the group of teenagers who are constantly in and out of my house all day. And I've chosen to be a comfortable place where they feel welcome. They are reasonably polite and pick up after themselves some, but the house is basically lived in by a lot of other people than me by the time I come home from work. It would be more effort for me, that I really don't feel compelled to put in, to change that. I like a comfortable, easy-going, happy home...not necessarily one where all the kids did all the dishes.
Sometimes the clutter bothers me more than the rest of my workload and I tackle it. It does feel nice to do for me.
But the extra work on a day that I was dragging and tired and overwhelmed with other responsibilities...that was for me only in the sense that I want to be a more thoughtful and giving person.
Regarding making the bed. I grew up in a house run like the Navy, with a finger run over the doorway and along the floorboards to make sure I dusted enough. Quarters have been bounced off my bed. I got yelled at once because all my glass animal collection hadn't been adequately dusted, so I tried to erase my entire personality from my room by putting away every single decorative or personal item. That would show them. No response. Gradually my stuff came back out where I could enjoy it.
Cleaning, like good grades, was not for me, it was for my parents. There was no other reason to do it, it was just done to stop the yelling. That's how I remember it anyway.
So in my own house I've struggled against laziness about cleaning. My favorite thing is to have a system that helps keep things where they should be - I set up a mail station with its own wastebasket, and that stopped the individual piles of daily mail that got dropped in random places all over the first floor of the house.
So I never made my bed other than when changing the sheets. My housecleaners do it when they change the sheets and it's nice. But I never saw the point when I'm just going to get back in it at night.
Sometime in the past year I noticed a friend of mine always makes her bed and I was genuinely surprised. I asked her why she does it and she said she just likes to get into a freshly made bed at night. For the first time in my life (really!) I thought, huh, I like that too. So I've been thinking about starting to make the bed, but I haven't gotten around to it just yet.
I noticed recently that my H was making the bed when I was out of town, and I asked him about it. But his answer was that he's sleeping on top of it now because it's hot out, so he was just straightening it to make it more comfortable and left it that way. I had thought if he expressed a preference for it made, we might start making the effort.
It's funny the mundane details that become meaningful in the breakup of a marriage.
I think there's more to this 'doing for me.'
I have struggled with the idea that because of who I am, I'm just an inferior spouse and not worthy of being with someone.
My H wouldn't be leaving me if I were... prettier, kept a neater house, more fit, made more money. Isn't that what we all think when our H's first leave?
So we go crazy doing things "for us." Working out, doing our hair, putting on makeup each day, cleaning the house more. To "fix" the problems that caused our marriage to break up. But it's not really for us. We say it is, and we do feel better about ourselves, but we're really hoping and praying that H will notice we really do look good and we really aren't slobs and he is a fool to leave us.
I've had now 14 months to work through this and figure out who I am and what I want.
Do I want to become a neater housekeeper so I can attract my H or some other guy and so I can feel good about myself that I'm a neater housekeeper? Do I need to check off the list anyone whose needs don't match my needs? Do we need to feel equally about clutter?
I don't think so. The secret that I learned is to know who I am and what my needs are (right now I'm a bit overwhelmed with work and parenting and tend toward being messy - this might change in the future) and to know who my partner is and what his needs are (right now he's overwhelmed with job stress and tends toward OCD - this might change in the future). And to work out agreements and do things, both of us, to get our needs met in conjunction with the other.
If I can clean the house as an act of love toward someone who likes a clean house, that to me is BETTER than for me to try to become more like the person who likes the clean house. Because we'll have other needs that conflict and the ability to negotiate them and meet them will work in any situation.
In the meantime I may just decide that I like the house clean too, and my needs will be different. At that point, H's underwear on the floor that he doesn't notice will become a source of stress to me. We'll need to be able to negotiate that when the time comes.
It's my birthday! 46 today!
I woke up wondering how to manage the fact that I was pretty sure H didn't know (or care) it's my birthday, but then I'd like to model better for the boys. So I went through potential options in my mind to figure out which ones looked passive aggressive, which ones really were passive aggressive, and should I say something and he feels bad or pursued or should I say nothing and blah blah blah. Instead what happened was I walked in the kitchen to find S12 and H and I threw my arms out and sang "It's my birthday, happy birthday!" S12 goes "It's your birthday?" and I said yeah, and my parents are coming over at 5 for dinner and then I have a meet up to go to. H said "OK."
So the stress of trying to figure out what to say or do was short-lived.
I had a great day tubing with my sister and her friends and S12 yesterday. We left at 8am and got home at 9pm.
I feel mad that my H, who's known me for over 20 years, doesn't recognize my birthday, after all the gifts I've bought and cakes I've baked and dinners I've planned for him. And all the times he's spent time with his friend and friend's girlfriend to celebrate their birthdays properly.
In the sitch we're in, where he's planning all the many details of separating his life from mine, it's hardly the time to teach or tell him how I feel about it. Surely he knows he's being kind of a jerk. I know he's worked very hard to not give me any expectations that we might R.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ADVINA!!!
I hope you have a great dinner with your parents and a fun meet up afterwards.
Focus on you today you deserve it. Anyone elses issues are only their own....
(((( ))))
Here's why GAL is a good thing. Today I went in Robek's and on the way in a very nice looking guy in an Army tshirt smiled and said hi. Nice! And then on the way back out two very nice looking guys struck up a conversation because I was wearing the tank top from the climbing gym I go to with S12. One of them asked if I work there (ha!) and we talked for a few minutes about how fun it is and how the memberships work, and my recommendation about taking their classes to get started. He's tried it only once before and is thinking about joining there. If I didn't have the interest and the tshirt I probably wouldn't have had that conversation. Back outside I learned that the Army guy had recognized me from the time I had a stray dog and was showing it at Starbucks to find its owner, who I did find and who came to Starbucks to collect her. If I didn't have that hobby I probably wouldn't have made an impression on that guy. So, cool, it's nice to be out and about talking with people I don't know.
Just wanted to pat myself on the back because it felt very nice to be noticed, and also to show that GAL has unintended benefits.
So many signals on your special day telling you that YOU are going to be A-OKAY!
Happy Birthday, AD!
Happy Birthday! I hope you were able to celebtate you today, because you are pretty awesome!
I'm sorry your H was being a jerk about it. It doesn't matter what he is feeling, you are still the mother of his children and he could have at least helped them pick out a gift, or at least remind them of this special day. You deserve so much better! Way to strike up conversations with random guys!!!!
Yes, Happy Birthday. We made your crepes again today. Delicious.
Thanks all! My H came thru. He walked S12 to the store and they came home with a card, actually signed by all three, and it was cute what H wrote in it. Then he made s14 go to dinner with us even though I said it was fine that he didn't want to. H was quite social at dinner. It was very nice. I got a present from my sister (dancing lessons) and from my parents (some spending money).
Then I had a really nice meet-up with two guys playing guitar with me. Honestly, there are some girls who joined the group, they just haven't attended yet.
Unbidden, I'm so glad you like the crepe recipe! It's a favorite in my house too!
Happy b-day, AD!
I am glad your H "came through" today. I've been biting my tongue all day, on what you posted earlier...
I feel mad that my H, who's known me for over 20 years, doesn't recognize my birthday, after all the gifts I've bought and cakes I've baked and dinners I've planned for him.
I really do wish you a happy birthday and hope this eve is as good as the day has been, for you...
I'm glad H came through (after I bashed him just a few mins ago). What kind of dance are you going to learn? I hear salsa and bachata are quite popular
Hi Kaffe - I'm not proud of that statement. I tried to say it in the spirit of the way I've tried to create family traditions where we celebrate one another, including the kids and including us, and he's never been really on board with any of it - it's just part of my role in the family.
He doesn't recognize my birthday or our anniversary, until we're in the middle of it. I never thought those things meant he didn't care, but now that he's made it quite clear he doesn't care our history takes on new meaning for me. He did not care in the way that I needed him to.
Fair enough, AD.
I understand how you feel about him and I respect that.
I know I can personally be judgemental at times, even though I easily forgive... some say, too easy...
So I was only pointing to something that I would point to myself. That I should not hold my past judgement on someone as people can and do change and if they don't, it is simply who they are and that is OK.
Be well!
Happy belated B-Day Ad! I'm glad you had fun! Look at you working the tank top and talking to the admirers!
Hope you have a great week!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY VINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks guys! It was a happy birthday.
So, KD, "So I was only pointing to something that I would point to myself. That I should not hold my past judgement on someone as people can and do change and if they don't, it is simply who they are and that is OK."
I want to think through that. I was kind of bean-counting, but meaning it more in a way of recognizing that our values are different about showing love and celebrating occasions. I'm not judging him, really, because either he's someone who just doesn't get into that stuff or he's someone who doesn't care about me. And that is ok. We'll get unmarried and go on our separate ways.
But if somehow, some way, he decides he does want this life with me, it would be because he's changed, or interested in changing. Because I've changed. You can't assume that someone loves you and allow him to say he just doesn't "get into" things that show love. You need to ask for what you need that shows you love, and make decisions based on whether your request is respected and responded to.
That makes sense, AD.
My thoughts sometimes wander to what it might look like if my W and I got back together. And I can certainly say that, as things are, the M would not work out.
Do understand that I completely understand your perspective and respect it and you. You are doing for you and while DB is about maybe saving our Ms, it doesn't always turn out that way and sometimes that's a good thing.
What I do know is, I disengaged my W. And while I operated from the premise that my W did not have to meet my needs the way I expected her to, it hurt that she didn't. And I now have the tools in hand to be able to recognize if she were ever to show me love in "her way", so I can appreciate it for what it is, rather than having it given to me in my LL. And I learned that disengaging my W was all I knew how to do at the time and I could re-engage her now in a different way and perhaps help her understand and provide me with my LL needs.
And that's all for naught, because right now... we are not M...
And we might be D... eventually...
But at least I know that stuff for future Rs or a possible M.
So as I said, I do understand your position and completely support you in your path. 100%.
Thanks KD - I've thought very much the same thing. That I've learned some new skills and language that would enable me to navigate our relationship differently and more successfully, even if he were only just a little bit interested. But I may not get that chance.
All I can do now is BE different, and maybe that becomes evident to H.
On my birthday, H set up iTunes on my email instead of his, so now we're electronically separated.
Today he noticed the check cleared that I wrote to start up my new checking account, and he listed off for me all the auto-pay bills that I'll need to change to my new account. He suggested that I move some more money over.
I see this happening and I still can't believe it's happening. I've got to keep reminding myself that I'm lucky to be getting a do-over, not to live my life with someone who doesn't want to be with me.
Sorry, Ad. I wish there were something visable that said this may turn around but it doesn't seem like it. Its sad. Regardless, you're an impressive person whose taken this awful sitch and found ways to improve and be better.
You've got a lot of journey left and you seem primed to enjoy it. (((Ad)))
I see this happening and I still can't believe it's happening. I've got to keep reminding myself that I'm lucky to be getting a do-over, not to live my life with someone who doesn't want to be with me.
Ad,
I love this thinking; keep it coming please!
You are an inspiration.
I see this happening and I still can't believe it's happening. I've got to keep reminding myself that I'm lucky to be getting a do-over, not to live my life with someone who doesn't want to be with me.
Ad,
I love this thinking; keep it coming please!
You are an inspiration.
I agree! This is GOLDEN!
You can't assume that someone loves you and allow him to say he just doesn't "get into" things that show love. You need to ask for what you need that shows you love, and make decisions based on whether your request is respected and responded to.
Very true and so well said -- it's just that "making those decisions" is just oh so painful. WRT KD's comment, if your spouse refuses to speak your LL, I agree you can try to look for how they express love and accept that for what it is, but as someone who is in that place now, I believe two things:
1) It's a recipe for long term frustration and suffering
2) The reason your spouse won't speak your LL isn't because they're not capable, or "not into it", it's because they're not motivated. That lack of motivation is most likely rooted in lack of attraction. You're both going to be aware of that, and it's going to continue to push you apart.
Accuray
Acc, I divided a lot of my thoughts into prebomb and postbomb. There's a whole world of ideas and lingo and ways of thinking that people who haven't had the experience of therapy or self-help books don't know about. They just don't occur naturally.
So for your #1, there's a difference between a spouse who "won't" and one who just doesn't naturally think to express love in your love language as you've clearly explained it to him/her. The former is indeed a recipe for long term frustration and suffering. To tell someone I need to hold hands now and then and they say "I won't do that" just seems like a nonstarter, almost cruel. I have a friend who is a psychologist so she has, trust me, very clearly told her husband she needs touching - just a quick hug when passing or a hand on a shoulder during the day - and she occasionally gets through and he tries harder, genuinely, and then after a while forgets again and gets reminded when she reaches a frustration level again. I could see this working because he genuinely wants to meet her needs and does try.
But to be able to express that clearly is a post-bomb ability. Before I was just confused about why my H didn't naturally just feel like I did about things, and there were tears, lectures, resentment, frustration, and finally I just accepted it and tried to hide it from my family and friends, and I took on the role of the person in the family who arranges any celebrating that's going to be done. I bought the cards and gifts for his mom, siblings, niece and nephews, and I planned the holidays for our kids. H has never heard of "love languages" and probably just wrote it all off to hormones (jk that's just a buddy joke).
Regarding #2 I agree my H isn't motivated. You think he was never really attracted to me? You think someone he wanted to have sex with more he would have brought flowers on her birthday? I don't think so, unless, as in #1, she has clearly explained that she needs xyz to be in a relationship and this relationship like this is not working out for her. I adapted to how H was, but he was attracted at one point. He lost that over the years of nitpicking each other and butting our heads against the wall of misunderstandings between us.
The lack of attraction isn't just going to push us apart, it's about the only thing that will force us apart. He was lame about celebrations, I accepted that. He was hypercritical, I learned to deal with that. He started avoiding me and being downright mean, I tried to understand and adapt to that but honestly was becoming a little alarmed. No overt behavior was going to get me to leave, so he must have resorted to his last available tool - this "attraction" that's just gone. I can't adapt to that.
I don't believe it's insurmountable, but he has to want to fix it. If he won't want to, it won't get fixed. And now that it's out in the open, I can't live with the knowledge that my H doesn't want me. When it was unspoken I was OK with struggling through.
Journaling. Counseling yesterday was on my anger with H.
I don't usually feel angry with him, just sad and disappointed, and it is what it is, and he's doing what he feels he needs to do. But every now and then I think of a great "zinger" I'd like to say to him and I don't. I know it won't help to try to make him feel bad, but I asked my T why I feel this need to do that and what to do about it.
It comes from anger - I'd like to tell him this is idiotic, and then he rethinks it and realizes he doesn't want it. In the movies maybe, but it's not going to happen in my real life. And so really I just want to hurt him like he's hurting me. I think of these things because they'd make him feel like a jerk and then I'd feel understood and justified in my anger.
This is all thinking through feelings, not things I'm acting on or planning to. But what do I do with this apparent anger? I've gone for a swim or hike, or eaten Oreos, and that helps dissipate the anger but more in an avoidant way than I feel a productive way. T helped me sort this out.
Yes, I'm angry. Maybe I need to tell him, for my own self-esteem, to stand up for myself and say my piece. If that's the case, I should think about what I really want/need to say, and when it would have a chance of being heard. Maybe after the D is final.
I realized that's not really my purpose - I'm not suffering a lack of self-esteem, and I don't feel like saying my piece is what I was really looking for.
I really just still deny that this is happening, and I'm grasping for something that brings him back from the edge. In that case, a cutting quip is not going to be productive at all.
My T suggested that also since we're about to be negotiating settlement, perhaps there's a time and place for sharing my angry feelings when he should understand that I did not seek this D and do not want it, am about to take a decrease in quality of life for a few years because of his selfishness. She had much better words than I can remember. But the point was she didn't say it in a sarcastic, hurtful, or "zinger" kind of way, but in a sincere and objective and calm statement that he's in denial about the real effects of his choices.
The point is using your anger to identify your feelings, think carefully about the consequences and what your goal is, and use your words to achieve your goals rather than to inflict pain.
I really don't think I'm trying to use my words to get more in settlement. I wanted them to change his mind.
When I think about it more, there is no sign that he's considering changing his mind. He's cooperating on pulling all the papers for the financial planner. He's providing input on my new bank accounts and life insurance information.
The financial planner will require a contract and a sum of money to continue working with us on the separation and I felt at this point that it's a point-of-no-return where I'd just like to ask him, are you sure you want this? We're about to spend the first significant money, is this still what you want, before I commit to spending it?
Honestly, talking with T, I realized that I have no reason to think the answer is anything but Yes, I still want to D. I also have no reason not to commit the money. Whether we D or not, I'm already curious about her advice and what she sees that we can do with what we have, whether we're on track to have a comfortable retirement, whether we've made smart choices on our investments. So I don't think I'd value her input any less if H came around and decided to reconcile. Which means, it's not a point-of-no-return. I'll go ahead and sign the contract.
So, where that leaves me with my angry feelings. Keep exercising them away, keep thinking about what it is that I need to communicate and when it might have a chance of being heard. And how, a statement, a conversation, a letter? Or let it go? I know a zinger won't do anything but make me feel clever for a moment, and then make him feel angry back at me. Nonproductive.
My other conversation with T was about a long talk I had with MIL about what's going on with H, and how I let her blathering go because I felt because of her age and her need to feel like her son is a good person I didn't want to let on how hurt I was. T said I don't need to protect everyone else. I need to respect my own feelings and not put them aside to save MIL from hurt feelings. She said I could have told MIL: "I need you to know that I've been using great restraint to handle this with dignity and not make things worse, but it doesn't mean I'm not feeling very hurt about this D, which I do not want." It bothers me to think that my H's family will see how easily and quickly this went and how well we all handled it, and not know that I did not want it and that H really hurt me with his choices.
I had given up the idea of justifying myself to friends and family a long time ago as nonproductive. T pointed out that my history is to identify expressing my feelings as nonproductive and bury them. But sometimes you need to express them for yourself. I'm still thinking about this. I don't see the point of trying to get an 82 year old lady to think of her baby son as a selfish bad guy. Isn't it better to just stuff my feelings and stick to surface details when she has questions?
So that's about it with counseling. I'm reading codependent no more, and see myself on that spectrum but not to the extent the book is talking about. It's an interesting way of thinking though - I definitely absorbed myself with trying to control the feelings and actions of my family, and find that I do a lot better now of owning my stuff and letting them own theirs.
H and I have missed two Saturdays of morning talks and I'll ask him to talk with me again this weekend. We need to figure out where the bills will be paid from now that I've separated some of our checking account out into a new account in my name. We need to work on our spending plans. We need to rehousetrain Tex who seems to have developed a preference for our carpet over the lawn, and I googled how to do that and need to get agreement with H on how to proceed. I have questions about who's paying the lawyer if we're going to use my lawyer to draw up our agreement. I want to suggest that I'll pay for the financial advisor (protection of assets) and H should pay for the lawyer (getting a divorce) even though he's my lawyer and represents me. At least we should talk about it.
I've talked with H about renting out a room in our house and doing the necessary construction to make that work. My parents have been working for the past year on finding a retirement home where they can be near my kids and be assured of nursing care if something should happen to one of them. It occurred to me that I'd really like to address those two needs together and have my parents come live with us. On the spur of the moment I suggested it to my mom to think about, and later I discussed it with H and S14 to start thinking about. H had lots of ideas about bumping out a wall on the first floor and building a separate entrance etc. It just seems silly for them to spend so much money to be near us and us to rent to a stranger to bring in money we need. I suspect, with my family being how it is, that it's not going to happen - my parents feel strongly about independence and living on your own and not needing help from people. Even though it seems like a win win to me, I think they would see it as being dependent on and imposing on us. We'll see. But the main thing is that I'm thinking as more of a giving person, which has been one of the things I'm working on. People aren't around forever, and I'd rather be able to help them out and keep them close than focus on my own life and stuff.
Oh yeah, one more chapter in this book. My bootcamp fell by the wayside after a trip to the beach. I came home tapped out and exhausted, and busy at work, and stressed out and unhappy. So, I felt more like eating oreos glued to my laptop and I let all my goals slide. The scale shows it. This week I picked myself up, dusted myself off, and got started again. I swam a mile and did a hike, and took note of some bad eating habits that just going to sleep at 10 would solve. It's like steering a big ship around, but I will do it. It felt so good to watch my progress before, and I'm trying to keep thinking about that good feeling.
So it's a beautiful day out and S12 gets home from camp at 5. I'm going to go enjoy. Hope you all are having some fun this weekend.
Don't know if you've read my latest post but it puts us in similar places.
My vacation while good while away, left me with lots of disturbing feelings.
And yes, I'm also angry, hurt and sad.
Now what to do with all that. If you can think of the words, I would love for you to share what your therapist said about sharing your anger.
Thanks, Ad for continuing to share your journey.
JBut every now and then I think of a great "zinger" I'd like to say to him and I don't. I know it won't help to try to make him feel bad, but I asked my T why I feel this need to do that and what to do about it.
I think that it is perfectly normal.
This is all out of our CONTROL.
We didn't ask for it, don't want it and it is the total opposite of what makes any sense.
It does not make sense to sit idly by and watch this train wreck happen.
However that is exactly what we must do.
Wish I could hand you an EASY button to FIX it all but that is not going to happen.
You sound like you are working your way down the PATH.
Just don't do too much of HIS work for him but continue to PROTECT yourself just like you are doing.
AD it is normal to feel angry. It is also normal to want to get even. it also normal to want and protect your ego. The rejection from them is very painful. So we want a come back phrase. The way I see it now is to live as happy as I can. It still not easy but I'm on the go every weekend. I just said ef it. Let whatever happens happens.
Thanks, LaBug, Cadet and Rick! LaBug, I'll go read your post next. Cadet and Rick, I'm glad to hear it's normal to be angry - it sure feels normal to me. But it's not how I want to be. I want to be the actor in my life and not a ball of wimpering reaction.
I'd like an EASY button anyway, maybe I'll go get one just for fun. Court date? THAT was easy. Sign papers? THAT was easy. JK, none of this is easy.
LaBug, I'll keep thinking but I remember she said pick a time when you have a good chance of being heard and when it makes sense with regard to what you're hoping to get out of saying something. Her example was in response to my frustration that h often says how I'm not taking a financial hit and how the kids and I will be fine. I feel outraged and angry every time he says it. If he says it again I may be prepared at that time to say xyz. The therapists' words started with "H, I think you are in DENIAL about what this situation is doing to us financially." It went on from there and each point was rational, no inflammatory words, nothing untrue or exaggerated. No zingers. Just a very rational statement that would not make him angry, because his anger would be detrimental to my cause, but to give him my perspective as it differs from his.
Couple of thoughts:
1. try posting your angry thought here just list all the zingers. It may help you lose interest in expressing them directly to him.
2. Every time I read about your H the thought that just keeps popping up in my head is he just was to f some 22 year old for a couple months once he feels like a man again cause he is with a hot young woman he will want a R with his life partner & the mother of his children again.
I dont see your H at all being honest with himself about what is going on. He is totally gaslighting and blaming you for Everything and not taking resposnbility for his own feelings. Also not even recognizing his true thoughts, total denial. He has done no work on himself this year he has just hidden in a bubble with his ears closed.
3. I went to family c not not my IC with my H to discuss helping our D adjust. She told my H all the things I needed him to hear about what he was doing to the family in a straight forwarded non judgementally way that I wasnt able to do. She said things like "children will always want their parents to be together". She got him to agree that we should not be introducing our children to any significant others until we were very serious.
4. You will have other opportunities to express to your H family that you do not want a D. I liked your T suggestion and you should keep it in mind the next time the opportunity arises. I am quite certain most of the woman in his family do not think you are happy about this.
5. Dont worry about when or where he will change his mind. You have done a great job GALing and doing meet up groups, hiking etc. Keep the focus on you not on the wacko.
6. I dont like the use of the word denial in your response to your H. Maybe you can just say "Once we have 2 seperate accounts my income will be abc and my expenses will be xyz" I think the word denial reflects judgement.
You are doing an amazing job. Taking the high ground is the only path that can work. Unfortunately you are carrying the load until he sees the light. Be an example to your kids as you have been.
hugs
Thanks Bklyn! I like your ideas.
I have thought about the movie Hall Pass more than once since this all started. From the start I felt like I was living some Judd Apatow movie or something. Such a cliche.
I don't know that H understands himself what he really wants, so to open our marriage for a set amount of time so he can get it out of his system, I don't know, just doesn't seem like something workable for us. I don't know if I could stand it either. He may or may not be already doing that, but he's having to keep it hidden if he is. I go on the assumption that he probably is, but I don't have the pain of seeing evidence or really being sure.
Keep the focus on me is the best advice. That's helped me so much from the beginning, to keep me in line being a person I'll be proud to have been and a person I want to be. Thanks for the reminder!
H is all in my business and I think I was non-db for a moment.
I opened a new bank account at the advice of my book and my financial advisor, and should be beginning to establish credit in my name. Since I have bank accounts at five different banks due to my personal, job, and volunteer activities, I happen to like one of them better than the one H and I have been banking at for 20 years, so I opened my account there, and that reduces the number of banks I'll be dealing with down to four. Whatev. I mean, the interest rates are laughable, the fees are comparable, it's not like I made a stupid decision, and it was mine to make.
So H is all, why did you get an account there? Why not at the same bank we had? What are they going to charge you at non-bank ATMs? You know you get those charges, how many ATMs do they have, and where are they? Name the closest one! Well that's not as close as ours! (I decided to point out to him that I rarely use ATMs at all, and only very rarely need to get money out from an ATM somewhere that doesn't happen to be at our bank, like maybe once or twice a year. I pointed out that we're talking maybe $4/yr.) He was like, well that's my $4 a month you're spending, so I clarified again and then got a little fed up.
So I said, honestly? Do you really care where I bank? If we had the same bank account I would happily cooperate with you on it, but I'd like you to not care about this since it's MY account. So H goes, FINE - I'll NOT care. and I said Good, that will be better for you. And he went on his way.
Honestly. You want to divorce me and run my life anyway? OK, back to DB land, sorry for getting off track.
Oh yeah, another possible non-db moment today. I decided to jump in and ask him a question that might have set off a negative interaction but felt it was important, and was a big change from how we used to interact.
H got ready to walk to Starbucks and S12 was lying on the couch and I was finishing up dishes. He said anyone want to go with me? S12 said no. H said...anyone? So I said sure! and went along with him. We each took one of the dogs. On the way home I had 3/4 of a hot cup of coffee and the more rambunctious of the dogs. He sometimes likes to jump in the fountain so as we neared it I slowed down and noticed a very pretty little girl in a dress holding a bouquet of flowers next to the fountain. The dog got up a little close to her and H freaked out a little and urgently told me to pull him back, which I did. No harm no foul and H was like why didn't you pull him back sooner? And I said well I did after all. We continued to the stoplight. Then H asked me again why did you let T get all in her face? Did you think that was OK? Why did you do that?
I was about ready to blow it off again. This is a typical old-time type of exchange where he just can't let anyone save face, won't back down, and seems to be looking for some kind of submission I can quite understand. So ordinarily I would just dig in my heels, continue on, and try not to worry about him. I would have thought he was being unreasonable, and I would have felt mild dissatisfaction that I didn't know how to resolve the situation. I decided this time I would not blow it off.
So I said, H, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to start an argument, but I just want to clarify something. When that happened back there you said something and I responded. And then you brought it back up again. What kind of a response are you looking for when you do that? Do you want me to more visibly feel bad about what happened? Do you want me to say something in particular? I just don't know what you want out of that.
H said he wanted to know if I really thought it was ok to let the dog get in little girls' faces. He certainly didn't. It might have frightened her and she might have fallen backward and cracked her skull. He said he takes extreme measures to always be diligent about things that could happen like that. He didn't like that I did not. (Yet again showing me how differently we view the world - I saw a calm smiling child and he saw a potential cracked skull.)
I told him I really did believe the same as he did, that the dog should not be up in people's faces. In fact, I had assumed that we would both feel that way. I did feel bad about what happened and felt bad that I had let myself get distracted by my coffee and the cute girl, but I didn't know what else I could say about it that would make him feel better.
It was an interesting conversation and I was glad I went out on a limb to ask him about it so I'd know more where he was coming from and he'd know more how his bringing stuff up over and over came across.
It was more of an anthropological exploration than an emotional conversation, and I felt like our walk was improved because we'd had it.
This is my warped take on today:
Your H like every other MLC person wants to be validated. They want to be told they have the biggest..., they are yearning to hear that they are the best financial decision maker ever, no one but them knows how to handle/train a dog.
He wants to feel like a man again. Whatever that means.
I know its so counter intuitive when he is the one that wants to end the marriage but do whatever you can to tell him how smart and great he is. He is in a mental crisis.
Obviously a regular person that wants to D his W would not care what bank their W choose but your H is begging to hear you tell him that he is sooooo smart. This is what the younger woman do.
Unfortunately we need to carry the load right now.
Oooohhhh! THAT explains why he was so bent out of shape that I got a life insurance quote! He said to age 70 was completely ridiculous and if my advisor said to quote that she's an idiot. I requested a 15, 20, and 25 (ie to age 70) year quote just to compare. H sold life insurance at the beginning of his career and he is just so p.o'd that I'm talking to anyone else about it.
That said, I will have to think about this. Is it better for me to simper and suppress my independent streak, or is it better for him to see that I'm moving on and feel whatever discomfort there is to feel with that?
I cannot rely on his investment advice if he's my adversary in a divorce...and that is his choice.
I think you should try the swooning method I suggest and see if he likes it. Obviously you dont need to go with the advice he gives you but maybe ask him to explain why 70 is crazy.
You can not rely on his advice but you can ask him for it and then measure it against what the advisor suggests.
Doing this will not make him wake up tomorrow and say I dont want a D but over time it will make him feel like you respect him as a man. I really think men like to feel like they are in control and being in charge of the money is one way they feel empowered.
I told my 3 yr old in front of my H "Daddy has to work hard to pay for your birthday party." (even though we both work) I went on about how expensive the party is & that Daddy is paying - He loved it. Hasnt changed the fact that we are moving forward with the D but I could tell he liked it.
BK is on to something here. I can thank H for some random chore he did or ask him a question about something and I swear he almost struts like a peacock. It's actually rather funny. LOL
If you decide to try it, let us know how it goes!
Wow Ad, H seems like a tough man. What do you think is behind all these behaviors? He really seems to have a controlling drive, need to be right, and need to be acknowledged as "right". I realize you're venting and he isn't *always* like that, but those are a few examples in a short span of time. It seems like if he has an opportunity to *prove* that you did something less than he would have done, or to a lower standard, he rubs your nose in it until he feels you've given in.
I think *part* of that is a man thing, but it seems very extreme. My W frequently crashes our cars. She drives too fast and doesn't pay attention. Last week she borrowed FiL's car and tore the front bumper off it by running over some boulders while she was turning around. I was in the car with her yesterday and she was backing up by looking in the rearview mirror instead of turning around. I said "You're backing up without looking! Please turn around and look out the back window when you back up!" She said "I'm looking, I know what I'm doing" and then made some snippy comment like "Yeah, I'm just going backwards and paying no attention". I felt I was a bit over the line just criticizing her driving, but if I'm a 4 on the complaining man scale, your H is a 9 -- Yikes!
Accuray
Thanks for the reality check Accuray! My h really is a 9. He's been waaaaaaay better since our bomb and three sessions of counseling together because I feel a lot more understanding and don't react to him in anger the way I used to. He is really challenging to get along with, but I have noticed it's just me and the kids - he is NOT like that with friends and coworkers and seems relaxed and happy with them. He complains behind their back to me later.
At our cookout long ago, the guys weekend that Purg and I crashed, one of the buddies asked me if I would change and act more helpless to get my H or a man. I had to think through my immediate negative reaction and after thought still I thought, no. I don't believe I want to put on an act to seem more feminine and needy than I am.
However, just for you Ro and Bklyn, I'll take the advice to heart and look for real things I do respect about H and convey that and report back.
We may be at an impasse though. My H seems to really need to feel needed - in ways that I don't really need him, and I really need an emotional connection - which H refuses to or is incapable of providing. I might win him back and not want what I got. I'd rather if he comes back it's because he finally feels the lack of emotional connection and decides he wants to learn how to build it.
Maybe the litmus test for you is whether or not you'd feel resentment afterwards for acting a certain way? Not sure, but no sense becoming someone you're not to get someone you don't need....but you figured that out already...
Ad, I'm embarrassed to say that my H would probably describe the me of 2 years ago much the same way.
The good news is it can be changed, the bad news is the person has to recognize it, search their soul and work really hard. It is not an easy process.
I've said to him that I wished he had loved me enough to sit me down and say: "Bug, I love you but something is wrong. You do x, y, z and it's driving me and the boys away." Would that have worked, don't know. He did tell me on a few occasions that I was too critical and unhappy and that he couldn't do anything right. At that time I of course thought he was the reason for all my problems.
What did work-S(19) invited me to a session with his psychologist and said pretty much what I said up there^. And then a few months later, BD#2.
He won't change until the pain of continuing in this way is greater than the pain of changing.
My thought is that if you can do some different things like what BK suggested and stay real and true to yourself then give it a try and see if it has a positive effect.
But I will not be fake or inauthentic because that feels controlling and manipulative to me and if my waw ever re-engages I want it to be her decision based on who I really am.
However, just for you Ro and Bklyn, I'll take the advice to heart and look for real things I do respect about H and convey that and report back.
We may be at an impasse though. My H seems to really need to feel needed - in ways that I don't really need him, and I really need an emotional connection - which H refuses to or is incapable of providing. I might win him back and not want what I got. I'd rather if he comes back it's because he finally feels the lack of emotional connection and decides he wants to learn how to build it.
I can totally relate to the bolded part. It's been like that our whole relationship. I think I didn't need him in ways he wanted to feel needed, but I also didn't let him feel needed in the ways I did need him. (Did that make any sense? LOL)
I don't want you to try to become someone you're not. Lord knows there's too much of that going on in this world as it is. LOL I was just agreeing that for me, letting my guard down (even if just a little), is one of the things that was missing in my M.
H still acting like a control freak. (journaling here...) I bought two boxes for S14 when he cleaned out his room and was dismayed to find the just-right-size boxes were $7 each. Since S14 didn't use both, I have kept one in pristine condition to return.
S12 sharpened a pocketknife and wanted to test it on the box and I said no, that box cost $7 and I plan to return it.
H came down from upstairs to get in the middle of this conversation between me and s12. "What? You paid how much? what kind of box? Where is it? Let me see it. Why did you pay $7 for a box?" omg. I was calm but a little frustrated and just said "I paid $7, which I feel was too much, and I'm going to return it." again.
BTW H made a funny the other day that reminded me one of my favorite things about him. I have that meetup group for guitar, and talked to H about it on our walk this weekend. He said I should combine a bunch of meetup group ideas to save money on group fees.
[Just overheard H telling S14's friend "my life [censored]", nice.]
anyway, his meetup group idea was playing guitar while only talking in Japanese and then walking dogs together. He does crack me up!
So, flash forward back to today. H brought his friend over because they were getting his car from the shop together, and friend asked me about my meetup group, so h must have told him about it. Friend wanted to know how it was going, and what the male to female ratio is.
It's pretty good; so far I'm the only female that's made it to a meeting. I think that's just the demographics of the hobby though; the hiking one has more like 50/50. I felt good to have this thing that's just mine to talk about with them that they appeared to be curious about.
My H seems to really need to feel needed - in ways that I don't really need him.
This is totally where I think we as the LBS have an opening. If we wait for them to come back because of the emotional connection I think we will be waiting a very long time.
I think we have to help them feel needed and wanted without giving up our dignity. In some ways I look at it like I would rather be wrong and happy. Me over complimenting my H on his finanaces is silly to me but to him, he really liked it so why shouldnt I do that. Its the language he speaks.
I agree you can't wait for him to come back because he misses the emotional connection -- he doesn't know what that is or what the value is so he's not going to miss it. I think Brooklyn is right that you need to fill the love tank first before you get anything back. I also think your strategy of taking walks together is a good one. Men typically don't like to just sit and talk, but if you can engage in an activity while you talk it loosens things up. I'm sure you already know all of that, mainly just catching up on how things are going.
Accuray
Why do I want to win back an H that doesn't miss or want an emotional connection?
Why do I want to win back an H that doesn't miss or want an emotional connection?
You don't - You would only want a NEW and IMPROVED version.
One of the reasons that we must LET GO.
That's an honest question. When I started dbing there was an undeniable element of wanting to win this thing. 14 months later I feel more like I'm letting H be who he is, and not trying to control it. I've made all kinds of reasonable accommodations and efforts to be the best person and wife I can be in the situation. But I can't ignore the fact that he doesn't WANT to be with me.
I keep thinking about the way he just plain wasn't there when I had a cancer scare, literally, he went to install a computer at another woman's house. And the way he teased me for crying when my uncle died. I don't want to have to always look elsewhere than my husband for an emotional connection - isn't that what a marriage is?
He's shown literally zero interest in exploring what went wrong in our marriage or trying to fix it, for over a year. He hasn't touched me in any way, for over a year. What am I waiting for?
Zingers. BklynMom suggested I note them here so I am. The funny thing is like a dream where things make sense and then you wake up and realize they didn't really, these zingers are like a fantasy where I think I say something insightful and clever and everything changes, like in the movies. But when I noted them down I could barely even verbalize them and they're not really that great.
For the purpose of journaling them and seeing what I can learn about myself, here are three from yesterday's commute.
"You had a whole YEAR to think about working on our marriage and you didn't do one single thing, so now I don't see any chance of reconciling."
"If a vague feeling of discomfort was all it took for you to want out of your marriage vows they must not have been very strong for you in the first place."
"You seem to get more fulfillment out of [friend] and [friend's 15yo son] than your own family and your own kids."
What this says about me: I wish he seemed to feel more guilty or more bad about what feels to me like abandonment of wife and son, abdication of responsibilities. I would like to say something that makes him realize that and feel bad. Instead these things, said with the bitterness and emphasized words that play in my head, would make him feel more justified and less connected to me. Angry. Annoyed. Less inclined rather than more inclined to go out of his way to help me cope with the financial and emotional loss of our marriage.
Hey Ad,
I think the "waiting" part is a sign of still holding on. You're doing so many good things to move on with your life. The meet-up groups, the swimming, looking at your self to improve...These are all great examples of you actually moving on with life.
So what do you think you're waiting for? Are you making your H do all the work for the D since its what he wants and not you? Are you waiting to see if he changes his mind and recommits to your M? Are you managing your time to prepare a new life strategy for yourself as a single mom? I don't see anything really wrong with any of these, especially since you are doing so good at moving on with your own interests.
It was probably 18 or 19 months before my W and I started touching each other again. Its still on a limited basis but its better than before. Each of us have our own internal clock on these sitch's.
You're doing so many great things for yourself and your boys. And it ultimately comes back to the info we had when this started. We can do all the right things and our WAS may still decide to leave. But you're better than you were before regardless of their choices.
((Ad))
Thanks CES. I guess I don't feel like I am waiting. I hope and am emotionally ready for a time when H says, wait, this isn't what I want anymore, can we work this out? I would say yes, if I have a partner who's interested and trying, I can give it a good shot.
Rather than waiting, I'm just slowing rolling with what's happening. I'm not rushing to meet with my financial advisor who will prepare the financial aspects of our separation agreement. But I did finally after about 2 weeks mail her the contract and a check to work with her on this.
I'm not rushing to set up an appointment with my L to write up the rest of the separation agreement, but I've come around to believing handling it that way at H's suggestion is in my best interest. I didn't want to "help" this much but refusing to do these on principle can hurt my future and my kids' future.
I think letting go of the rope means going ahead and working on a separation agreement if that's what H wants.
There's a chance of what a lot of us are afraid of, that if we don't keep holding the rope our WAS will one day say "Why didn't you even look back once? I didn't really want this." In my case, when I really look objectively at my sitch, I think my H knows well enough that I don't want this, and that I haven't put any obstacles in the way of changing his mind. So that line of thinking is just plain denial of reality.
Now, that doesn't mean I'm not trying to speak H's love language and be someone he'd want to come back to. I have been doing acts of service such as driving him to and from airports, which I know he likes, and being more conscientious about taking care of the house and yard, and following through on things I say that I'll do that he wants done. I'm cooking meals that he's welcome to, and cleaning up after them. I've thanked and appreciated verbally his doing the laundry which is his responsibility anyway, and fixing the garage door, and big praise for his electric fence which is such a clever and well engineered solution for our runaway dog. I've stopped resisting him just because our opinions differ, and so now our two dogs are cropped short. He's having such fun controlling the length of their fur that he mailordered a new clipper and mentions it a couple of times a day. I told him they look cute and probably feel much cooler. I've completely stopped challenging his staying in bed all afternoon and evening and instead just try to have fun activities or meals in the house that he can join in when he comes downstairs. I've lightened up bigtime, and I don't think I was that much of a nag to start with. I'm leaving a lot more room for who he is rather than telling him how I think he should be.
What I can do that I haven't is ask for his advice on my life and disability insurance quotes. We were at loggerheads on that because he was mad that I didn't do things his way before he even told me what his way was. He expects mindreading and is mad when I'm just not his way to start with. He was sarcastic and loud about his opinion when he heard I got a quote and he cited his years of insurance sales training and success record. So I tried. I told him what I supposed the reasoning for insurance to age 70 might have been and pointed out that if he were advising one of his customers he wouldn't be able to use "well that's just ridiculous" as his reasoning, he'd actually have to provide a reasoning. Since I'm his W he skips the explanation and just expects me to do as told no questions asked. Well I need to sort out my own information now, but I'll listen to his contribution if he wants to provide it.
News on the home improvement front - my parents decided to decline my offer to share housing with them. Also my S12 asked me not to get a renter, he just would like to have our house to ourselves. I don't want to disregard his comfort - just because I liked having a college student around doesn't mean my kid did.
There's a chance of what a lot of us are afraid of, that if we don't keep holding the rope our WAS will one day say "Why didn't you even look back once? I didn't really want this." In my case, when I really look objectively at my sitch, I think my H knows well enough that I don't want this, and that I haven't put any obstacles in the way of changing his mind. So that line of thinking is just plain denial of reality.
Yes.
If they want back in, they can say that. They were able to say they wanted out.
And I have to think, do I want a man who is (still) unable to express his needs or who continues on a bad path on principle.
Why do I want to win back an H that doesn't miss or want an emotional connection?
It is a very good question. Do
you have an answer to that?
And I have to think, do I want a man who is (still) unable to express his needs or who continues on a bad path filled with negative consequences on principle.
Yes, hello CV I missed you. My answer is I don't. I'm not in it to win it. I gave this lots of chances and lots of work. I'm not in a hurry to get divorced but I'm not stopping it if that's his decision.
I know in my heart I did everything I was capable of, left no stone unturned, made myself completely vulnerable. I learned why I was reactive and oppositional and I am no longer either of those things. I learned why we had such trouble talking intimately and I have practiced all year on safe and deeper subjects, testing my ability to communicate with H. I feel a lot more confident in my ability to do that, and have noticed its effects at work and with my kids too. I learned that neat and messy can coexist through cooperative negotiation and have put that into practice in my house, creating more peace than we had in years. I learned to separate my identity from my H and kids and not to try to manage all of their thoughts and emotions to match mine - I learned to see them for who they really are and appreciate our differences. I learned that my H can hurt me to the core and I still love him and want him, but not to the detriment of my fundamental needs. I know WAY better now how to get my needs met without resentment, whining, manipulation, anger. I know now not to stuff and ignore my needs, they are important to me.
So I've completely let go of the idea of winning or losing in this. Either way I come out I come out much better off. I'm still extremely hurt and angry that H is unwilling or unable to be a husband to me, but it is his decision and I've decided to respect it.
My question was in response to suggestions that I continue db-ish tactics like acting needy as a way of appealing to his attraction to "damsels in distress". I don't think I'm in 37 step land anymore, trying to get control of myself in the initial shock of a bomb. I'm in the time part of the consistent change + time equation. I'm not done improving as a person and relationship partner; I think that's a lifelong goal.
I will not call off our impending divorce if there is no reason to believe he will do any work on our relationship. So far he's given no reason to believe that.
I should say, I wouldn't advise anyone to walk away in the initial months or even year of hearing "i don't love you, never did, don't want to be with you." That's script.
But I've been hearing it through 14 months of really good DBing and IC, with not a glimmer of second thoughts. After a very long time I think standing becomes denial of reality. My H divorced me emotionally a very long time ago and I've done all I could do with no effect.
If H goes ahead and processes this divorce and continues to be emotionally unavailable, I don't want this marriage anymore and I'll move along.
I'm sorry Adinva. I don't know your sitch, but I read your posts on other threads. It sounds like you've done everything that you can to save your M. You should be proud.
Denver
But I've been hearing it through 14 months of really good DBing and IC, with not a glimmer of second thoughts. After a very long time I think standing becomes denial of reality. My H divorced me emotionally a very long time ago and I've done all I could do with no effect.
If H goes ahead and processes this divorce and continues to be emotionally unavailable, I don't want this marriage anymore and I'll move along.
I'm right there with you A.
I should say, I wouldn't advise anyone to walk away in the initial months or even year of hearing "i don't love you, never did, don't want to be with you." That's script.
I know you haven't met me in person, but I just want you to imagine the look on my face when I read this. LOL
Okay, seriously, I do wonder if I had just said okay let's D in January, or H had actually left after BD, if I'd be further along in this process. I'll never know, but it is something I've been thinking about lately.
*Back to your regularly scheduled program*
Thanks, Ad. I've been keeping up, just don't have much of anything to offer.
Ad, you have an incredible list of accomplishments. You really do. I'm not sure most of us can even identify a list like that, much less manage to overcome them. You should feel proud, not only for having accomplished, but for putting the work into digging deep and understanding and even taking on the challenge. It's very easy to just blame it on someone else as being "their problem." But you didn't do that even with no real encouragement--much less guarantee--of getting your M back. You can only come out of this a better person, whether with your H or not. In fact, it's quite possible that if your H came back as he has always been, it might not work for you because you are NOT the same person.
I had a thought this morning shortly after I got up. I don't know where it came from, maybe from something I dreamed or heard on the radio without really listening. It went something like, "Why is it that whenever people love something, they either have to own it or f--k it or consume it?" It runs completely contrary to the philosophy, "If you love something, let it go; if it comes back it's yours, if it doesn't it never was." We can't possibly own/care for/afford all the things we "love" and yet we have an infinite ability to love, which evidences that we can love without possessing. Throw in the economics theory of the law of diminishing marginal returns (the more you have of something the less you value it) and it makes no sense at all. We should want to grasp virtually nothing that we care about. It also might make people not want to be loved because they don't want to feel owned/possessed.
I certainly don't have this worked out in my head, and I'm not even sure what to do with it if anything. But it popped into my head again in regards to reading about you and your H, and the theories behind DB of not begging and acting "as-if" and GAL, etc. You said you still love your H. Is it possible for you to continue to love him in a similar fashion even when he is no longer your H?
If you "love something and let it go and it doesn't come back," does that mean you have to stop loving it? Is the problem with a M break-up the fact that the person we love is no longer available for us to love, or is it really that we are no longer getting what we want from the M? If the answer is the first part, why does the love have to stop? If the answer is the second part, is that really a good way to be in a M?
I love a ton of people. Not one of them do I care about because of what they do "for me." There are some people that I care about even though they annoy the heck out of me and I don't really care to spend much time with them. There are some people that I still love even though I haven't spoke to them in years. I'm not M'd to any of them.
It seems obvious to me that your H still loves you, based on him still doing things around the house or trying to make sure you make wise investment decisions (aka. controlling.) It doesn't sound like he is being cruel or vindictive. It sounds like he has been unable to work out a way to enjoy/appreciate your company or living with you. This is not a reflection on you personally, just a reflection on the combination.
So, if you're not getting your emotional needs met from your H, and seemingly haven't been for some time, what are you trying to save? These changes are for you, which is absolutely great, so they can/should proceed regardless.
What is it that you're still holding onto?
I don't know Ad, you've turned a blind eye to his "secret motivations" by choice, and now you're feeling that your DB efforts have been ineffective WRT influencing H, even though you clearly really appreciate what they've done for you.
As we've seen on so many threads here, if his secret is that he's "in love" with someone else then you had no chance at all to draw him back to you regardless of how well you DB'd -- all you could do is tread water and not make things worse, and you've done that.
I identify with you and how you think in many ways, but one way we are significantly different is that I could not let the question of his secret reasons go unresolved. I admire you for having that self control, but I also think you are struggling to understand something that could be made clear.
Why do I want to win back an H that doesn't miss or want an emotional connection?
I have spent more time thinking about this than I like to admit. I think what it comes down to is romantic love and chemistry -- something no one claims to understand the source of. You cannot will yourself to be attracted to someone, and sadly you can't will yourself to being unattracted to someone either. That's why detachment is so hard -- you can't just wake up and convince yourself that you are no longer attracted to your spouse.
Here's the thing -- if you look at how they look, act, and treat you now, you probably would NOT be attracted to them if you could see them with a stranger's eyes.
I think when you fall in love as a young person and decide to marry, you fall in love with the person, the "idea of the person", and the potential the person represents for you. Over time, your feelings are colored by the "idea of the person" that you retain, the potential of what the person can represent to you, as well as your accumulated joint happy memories. Therefore you see them as a package, the sum of which is greater than the individual parts.
I think that's how it works anyway. When I look at W I don't see a 45 year old woman, I see the 28 year old woman I met, the mother of my children, the person I shared my honeymoon and some great vacations with, the person I moved into our first house with etc, and I'm as much in love with that package as I am in love with the person.
That's why I think we want to "win back" our undeserving WAS -- you love the potential that exists to forge an emotional connection with this guy -- you believe that if he does eventually "get it" it will be wonderful, and it's somehow attractive to pursue that even in the face of terrible adversity.
Accuray
Accuray,
I completely agree on your take as to why we would want someone who seemingly does not want us.
If we start our thinking by remembering that they probably had a fair amount of time before bomb drop to separate themselves from us emotionally and become "unattracted" to us, it makes a lot more sense.
Their feelings didn't change overnight, and neither will ours.
I am still attracted to my husband physically. He's a good looking guy. But, I am NOT attracted to the person he has become or the poor choices he has made.
I'm sure there are many of us that hold on to hope for that potential to reconnect with the person we love so dearly.
Thanks for your post, it was very helpful to me today.
There's a lot to think about there, from both of you. Thank you both for posting on my thread.
CV, I think there's a lot missing from the thought you were mulling over, "Why is it that whenever people love something, they either have to own it or f--k it or consume it?" I feel like that's not true WHENEVER people love. I guess the thing that's missing is the other person. Some people love, and ML, and it's more than a f--k, to both of them. It's not ownership, it's giving. When it's good. I believe in that. In non-romantic terms, many people love nature without owning, consuming, or otherwise ruining it, and add to it and share it. I think your thought provoking phrase is a leading question because it leaves this out and therefore I believe is false. Examples, I love my dogs but I don't want more than 2 (or maybe 3?) because they'll be more than I can care for; I can go care for more at the shelter without sacrificing my 2's quality of life. I love my kids but I know I can't grasp them and own them; hard as it may be I know the loving thing to do is teach them and let them go. So where were we going with this? I forget...
It's been a long time since I loved someone and let them go so I'm not sure I can predict, but I believe I will not always love my H. I have somehow sort of shut off my feelings for him romantically so that I can live side by side with him as we discuss getting divorced. I found this process painful and I want a clean break so my kids and I can move on. I may or may not be able to say that "I'll always love him in some way" but I really kind of doubt it. Love is a choice, choose not to love for long enough and I suppose it will die. It is in my best interest to move on if he's moving on. I don't believe in soulmates, I gave him my all and he kind of crapped on it, and I've lost quite a bit of respect and admiration for him that I once had.
You said:
It seems obvious to me that your H still loves you, based on him still doing things around the house or trying to make sure you make wise investment decisions (aka. controlling.) It doesn't sound like he is being cruel or vindictive. It sounds like he has been unable to work out a way to enjoy/appreciate your company or living with you. This is not a reflection on you personally, just a reflection on the combination.
That's an interesting take on him, and one he'd beg to differ from. But I'll accept that he is being a very decent guy albeit he is splitting up our family. He is absolutely not being cruel or vindictive. And I totally agree that his inability to work out a way to be with me *as I am now* is a reflection on the combination of his and me, and I most of the time don't take it personally anymore. Sometimes I still do, because I feel like if anyone could be perfect for him it's me; however that's my perception and is not his.
You asked what am I trying to save. Well, when something in your family gets broken and threatens the existence of the intact family, you need to try to repair it. You shouldn't just say, well, I'll be better off next time, and throw in the towel. So I'm trying to create an environment as long as I can, where it is possible for us to repair what has been broken. That doesn't mean get back what was, because it's been broken for a long time. It can't be done without him though, and eventually I have to accept the reality that he doesn't want to and isn't going to. That could be when the divorce goes through, or sooner, or much later. It seems to be a different point for everyone.
I'm just giving it a lot of thought lately and my current thinking is that I'm going to respect his wishes and be done when the divorce is done. What I'm still holding onto: hope for our family. We still haven't even told the kids. All of this is still completely reversible.
Accuray, hey, thanks for posting too! Secret motivations = affair? maybe. I kind of doubt it. I have wondered if his old EA will turn up shortly after our D. However it's been pointed out to me that all the time he's spending here and then with his friend and friend's son would suggest that his AP is veeeerrrry understanding and low maintenance. He can't be seeing her much.
Maybe H's friend has been a cover for him to spend time with her. That seems like a long shot to me.
Maybe she's someone he works with. I don't know. He's so very hard to get along with and so fussy I can't imagine him seeing a future with another woman. But I don't follow these lines of thought much at all because there isn't a single thing I'd have done differently if there was or wasn't an OW. I've been working on being the better option no matter what: whether I'm up against a female, a male, complete solitude, or his job, or a MLC.
I really don't know if I agree with you about romantic love and chemistry. I've heard of women who were not physically attracted to a man until they got to know him and he was wonderful and charming and funny or some other combination that she fell in love with completely. I believe it can happen. I hope it can. I noticed during my marriage I was almost never attracted to any other man at all, not counting Roger Daltrey, but very attracted to my H.
On the converse, during this painful year I've been on A/Ds and have managed to sleep next to my H and occasionally see him walk around butt-naked and I don't feel a spark for him. We struggled with this for a while, first me LD then him LD and now I guess we're both LD, because our love tanks are completely empty. So attraction can be shut off. It's not completely outside my control. And I believe it can be nurtured and the flames fanned again.
I agree with you that you love a whole person, including your shared past and what you know about their history and how you feel about that, and your dreams of the future. I married a guy who was smart, funny, ambitious, naive, ready to take on the world. Who he became is more jaded and cynical, sees the glass half empty, angrier, but still sometimes that funny guy peeks out. Who he might be in 20 more years, who knows. I didn't marry a statue I expected we'd change back and forth and in unpredictable ways. But once he told me if I gained weight he'd not divorce me but we just wouldn't have sex much anymore...and I knew then that my H had a different kind of love for me, more of a surface love, that didn't go into my soul or value my whole being, and I was disappointed about that.
There are more parts to why I want back my WAS, but not if he remains undeserving, only if I see hope that he can somehow learn to be a whole partner to me. These include: the value of an intact family for my kids, the financial and physical aspect of the life we built together, which is more that the sum of what we'll have when we split it up in the D, my upbringing and belief in marriage and family as inherently valuable. I really don't want to be divorced. But I can't stop it.
Before, there were lots of times when I confided to a friend to vent and then felt better, but left my friend wondering why I wanted to stay in the marriage. I always felt better and was able to forgive and go on, and I felt that it was my duty and responsibility to stay and make the best of it. I honestly don't feel that way anymore. Enough else has been broken, that if I see an honorable out and no hope of improvement, I'll take the out.
I understand your point about finding an honorable out if their is no hope for improvement. And certainly you can not have a marriage without a emotional connection.
In my sitch I see my H as having had a breakdown of some kind. Or like an alcoholic his on some type of manic binge, but his current behavior is inconsistant with the man I married. I see my H as sick and diseased and the only possible cure is my detachment. If I can detach and move on, my H can not blame me for his disease and their is a possiblity that he find a cure within himself.
The truth in my case is that this was never about my bad behavior, my H just used that as an excuse it was more about my H not being able to handle the stresses of his life.
Do you believe your H battling an illness??
Secret motivations = affair? maybe. I kind of doubt it. I have wondered if his old EA will turn up shortly after our D. However it's been pointed out to me that all the time he's spending here and then with his friend and friend's son would suggest that his AP is veeeerrrry understanding and low maintenance. He can't be seeing her much.
I didn't say it had to be an affair, only that he may be "in love" with someone else. That doesn't have to be reciprocated. My W's first EA was with a coworker she was infatuated with, she spent all her time thinking about him and was very much in love with him, despite the fact that he lives in another country and really only talked to her about work. The point is, if H's heart is somewhere else, then he is closed off to anything and everything you might do. At that point, no matter how much you become the better choice, you have to wait until the infatuation has run it's course. If he has limited access or it's not reciprocated, that can last a long time -- years.
...there isn't a single thing I'd have done differently if there was or wasn't an OW. I've been working on being the better option no matter what: whether I'm up against a female, a male, complete solitude, or his job, or a MLC.
I know that, your DB efforts, your introspection, and your personal growth have been nothing short of amazing. Although you are not saying as much, what I'm reading between the lines is some angst over the fact that you don't understand why H hasn't responded at all. I believe that bothers everyone who gets stuck in limbo. For me, I found some peace in understanding WHY my efforts yielded no improvement with W. Maybe that knowledge would give you some peace too, maybe not. You don't *need* me or anyone else to give you answers, you're very self sufficient in that regard, I'm just trying to share what has helped me to achieve some measure of peace lately.
I really don't know if I agree with you about romantic love and chemistry. I've heard of women who were not physically attracted to a man until they got to know him and he was wonderful and charming and funny or some other combination that she fell in love with completely. I believe it can happen. I hope it can. I noticed during my marriage I was almost never attracted to any other man at all, not counting Roger Daltrey, but very attracted to my H.
I love that you don't agree because I really like to dig into this further. I've been putting lots of thought here. There are many types of love, but for marriage there are two useful types to think about -- romantic love and companionate love. Romantic love = "I'm in love with you", companionate love = "I love you".
I definitely think you can will yourself to feel companionate love -- that's a choice for sure. That's a decision. I do NOT believe you can will yourself to feel romantic love, that's something that happens to you. You can certainly make a decision to work towards romantic love, but you can't just will it to happen. It also may not sustain itself as a constant, it will come and go in a long term relationship.
WRT your example above, you're focusing on physical attraction, and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that spark you feel for someone that means you're attracted to them. It could be 100% personality, but there is *something* there that pulls you like a magnet.
I do know people who got into marriages with people they were not attracted to, but they convinced themselves that the person was a good enough match that attraction didn't matter. "He's good looking, has a good job, is good with kids, and likes animals, and I'm at the age where I want to get married -- good enough"
The other end of the spectrum is people who fall in love with someone who is obviously a bad choice for them but marry them anyway because of the passion. The guy is a deadbeat, has a drinking problem, treats her like crap, but she's hanging in there because there's just something about him.
I think both of these situations are going to be extra challenging in the long haul. When I look at my friends, the ones who have the "best" marriages in my view are cases where the natural companionate match is very good, *and* the spark exists -- that seems to be an exception, but in that case, it's just not going to be as much work to keep it going.
It seems that in most cases, either there's a lack of passion, or a lack of companionate match, and lots of effort needs to go into dealing with those gaps.
If you ever want to get really depressed, Google "My [husband/wife] was never in love with me". It seems that in cases where the romantic love was NEVER there, the top eventually blows off the pressure cooker no matter how good everything else is going -- it's like a caged soul. I believe people yearn to feel attraction, it feels good to want, and I do not believe you can create those feelings by convincing yourself to love someone who you don't feel a spark for.
So attraction can be shut off. It's not completely outside my control. And I believe it can be nurtured and the flames fanned again.
Are you talking about attraction, or sex drive? Sex drive can clearly be turned off, and A/D's do a good job of that, but I do not agree that you can "turn off" attraction. Your relationship can no longer be worth the work and pain, and your resentment can overshadow your attraction and begin to inform your thoughts and behavior, but if your WAS suddenly came back to you in a loving, credible, way, willing to make the deep emotional connection you were looking for, do you really think you could turn off your feelings about that and turn your back on it without feeling any pain? I don't think so.
But once he told me if I gained weight he'd not divorce me but we just wouldn't have sex much anymore...and I knew then that my H had a different kind of love for me, more of a surface love, that didn't go into my soul or value my whole being, and I was disappointed about that.
I'm going to shift gears here -- men say stupid, immature stuff from time to time. (1) they may not mean it in the moment, it may be a "brain fart", (2) they may be trying to hurt you because of some way you hurt them that you're not even aware of, (3) they may feel they're losing power in the relationship, (4) they may have read some "make your wife a nympho" book that said women like being insulted and treated badly, (5) they may have meant it in the moment, but a week later they may feel differently and don't think to tell you because they've forgotten about it.
Early on in my marriage after we had our second son, I was exhausted. I felt a deep obligation to make sure my kids were happy. I would get on the floor and play with them every night, I'd read to them, I'd sit with them, take them to the park, make them laugh, etc. It didn't come easily or naturally to me, but I thought it was important, and what I "should" do, and my W wasn't doing it, so I did it, and it drained me. By the time the kids went to bed I was physically and emotionally spent and just needed an hour of "me" quiet time before I went to bed.
At some point during that period, my W came to me and said she needed more from me -- more attention for her, more connection. I told her that I didn't have it to give, and that what I was giving had to be good enough.
She, like you, interpreted that to mean that I did not love her the way she needed to be loved, and that the answer I gave was "now and forever", and didn't need to be revisited, and she mourned that hope for a different marriage.
For my part, I forgot about the conversation -- it probably just reflected how I was feeling that night. I didn't spend a week thinking about it. I knew at the time my answer made her feel badly, but the next day she seemed better and I was back on the gerbil wheel with work and the kids.
The point is, I said something dumb and insensitive, but it was in the moment, and if she asked me the next week, or maybe even a few hours later I might have said something different.
My point is, what your H said was stupid, but don't read into it that he only had a surface love for you and didn't value your whole being -- he simply could have said something stupid in the moment coming from a place of fear or insecurity. Don't let that taint your memory of the love you had with each other.
In terms of your plans going forward, not wanting to take him back unless you see some change and growth etc., I agree with all of that. You and I are on parallel paths there in many ways. I guess my point is that you can make that decision in spite of continued attraction. Attraction does not bind you to your course, it just makes dropping the rope more difficult, that's all.
Accuray
I dunno, Accuray. I think that feelings, including "sparks" really do come from thoughts, however quick or subconscious. I think the problems come from thinking that those things should just happen. That leads to thinking things could be more magical and then feeling deficient.
IMO, people who think that any feelings just happen are never satisfied for long because, yup, feelings come and go. Problems and solutions are in the thinking. Focusing on feelings, as if they fall out of the sky, gets nowhere and neatly avoids potential solutions.
Acc, that IS part of the memory of the love we had for each other. H's was just kind of stunted and superficial. I don't think he ever said anything he wouldn't now claim to have meant. He is VERY intentional and self-controlled.
I'll think some more about the other input and write later. Thanks all!
Oh but Acc there was one other thing you said, if he's in love with someone else I have to wait until it's over. You meant ...to see any progress in my sitch. I don't have to wait any longer than I want to wait. I love and value my family and my marriage but I have put in a lot of time and effort. If my H admitted to me that he's been in love with someone all this time, I can't see that being the turnaround moment for me where I'm willing to keep waiting indefinitely. I suspect he IS in love, with himself. (OK put that one down in the zinger file.)
On the good news front for some reason he decided to take time off work to do something fun with all of us and we're going zip lining Friday. On the bad news front he was pissy because S12 didn't act excited enough to suit him. But on the good news front I think it will be fun.
LOVE zip-lining! Have fun! My W took me to do that for my 40th. It was a blast. My S13 is big enough now to do it so I'm hoping to take him this fall or spring.
OK, so on all the deeper stuff, I'll just through this in. I love my W. I feel it and choose it each day. Throughout our M, my W has struggled a bit with her weight. I noticed it but it was never an issue with me. It didn't change my love or attraction for her. One of the biggest compliments she ever gave me was that I made her feel beautiful when she didn't feel that way about herself (probably a deeper issue there that I didn't pick up on at the time).
Now, my W has dropped a lot of weight, exercises regularly and dresses a good bit more provocatively. Physically, she is very attractive, IMO. However, I find that I am less attracted to her now than ever because of how she acts. Honestly, I have lost a lot of respect for her based upon her actions and choices. If we were to meet today as if it were the first time, I doubt I'd be drawn to her. Why? One of the first things that I noticed about my W was her smile. It said something beautiful about who she was. That same smile is rarely seen anymore. Once in a while I see it peak out (Mother's day was the last time I remember).
Not sure I have a point, just my own experience. Even though I am less attracted to my W, for me, I still have a commitment and I choose to love her each day. And since we're throughout out variations of the types of love, I'll throw in the word "agape". The Greeks had several words for love while we lump our feelings for ice cream, cars, tv shows & people all into the same word.
"agape" is basically choosing to love someone with no expectations of having that love returned. Its a gift. Its there despite faults, mistakes, flaws, etc... That's what I promised my W when we got married. Its what carries me through when "Eros" (romantic love) or Phileo (companionship love) can falter at times. Obviously marriage works best when both spouses use this as foundation, but if one doesn't maybe the ongoing use of agape from one can help ride the storm until the other comes around. And if not, I still feel better about myself for trying.
Acc, you DO put some time into this, don't you. Wherever you finally land, you should probably write a book.
So, do you believe that attraction changes? I KNOW it does for material things. The dress that I had to have back in 1987, I wouldn't be caught dead in today. I've already bought and sold my dream car and have my eye on another. Do you think it can work the same for people?
Also, do you think that physical attraction is directly affected by knowing the person? For example, I used to find Tom Cruise very attractive. Now I just think he's weird. Yes, he's still nice looking, but not at all "attractive" to me. In your reference to Ad's H coming back and reengaging, do you think it's possible that she might just not have that attraction for him anymore, even if? Too much water under the bridge perhaps? You can't un-know what you know. There's a big difference between seeing the value of M and the family unit and commitment, etc., and finding someone attractive. And what happens when you just can't see the potential anymore?
Ad, you're right. I shouldn't have included "everyone" in my thought about when people love something. It was an incomplete thought process and I don't know where it was going. You are so deep and introspective and so effective at verbalizing your position, yet I still was feeling like your friend that you vent on that wonders why you're still with him. I also realize that you're just in a tough spot and there is no on/off switch, or "easy" button as someone else mentioned. Thanks for throwing in on my questions.
My S14 took off in my car yesterday with his friend. He's never driven before, and obviously knew this was bad. He wasn't even sneaky about it, just super pumped that he drove! He brought the car right back into the driveway a few minutes later.
I sometimes feel unprepared to raise a spirited boy child.
I told S and his friend a few of the major reasons they might not have considered why this was a dangerous thing to do, let them know how angry I was, and drove his friend home instead of to the lacrosse field where they wanted me to take them.
When H got home I told S14 I expected him to go in and explain to dad what he did, and apologize for stealing our car. H was really angry but when we were alone I asked him what he thought and he said he didn't want to make any decisions while he was still angry.
Wow. Just what my IC said. So happy to see this progress in H. I thought he would beat the boy (not that I have good reason to think this) or break some of his stuff (I do have reason to think this) - bottom line is I just don't know WHAT H will do when he flies off the handle. This change was remarkable. I told him at the time that I thought that was really good.
S wasn't allowed out the rest of the day although he had plans. And yet somehow when I went in to say good morning to him, there was another big pair of bare feet on the floor next to his bed. I asked S who that was and he sleepily looked over and said, oh, that's R. I feel like my kid is a falcon spiraling farther and farther from me as he takes charge of his life and tests his limits. It's frustrating and scary. At least I can say he's not repressed like I felt as a kid.
Wait, you had someone sleeping over at your house and you didn't know it? LOL What did you do?
It does sound like he is testing his limits, which comes with being 14. I think you and H handled it well, though. And a big hand clap to your H for not wanting to make any decisions while he was mad! Progress!
Accuray and CV I'm still going back in your posts and thinking on them. There's a lot there.
Sometimes in this process we learn our paradigms that we live by don't match what others experience or what is considered "normal" by most people in our culture. I wonder how someone can write a book that truly explains people when each person interprets the world through their own brain and realities don't match. It's like, how do you know I experience the color blue the way you do? We look at the color cards as children and learn when you see "that" that is blue. But there's no way to know that it looks the same to me as it does to you. Love is even more likely to be different because it's not something you can point at or even describe very well.
So, agape is how I've always viewed married love. It's something you have and give even when your spouse farts or embarasses you at a party, or doesn't pick up his underwear off the floor. I didn't realize there was much you could do about the annoyances because I lacked the tools to navigate effectively when my H's actions intruded on my comfort or happiness. And vice versa. We'd bicker or nitpick or tolerate, but there were better tools we didn't know about. But through it all I felt agape type of love.
Acc I did confuse your word attraction for physical or sexual attraction. I don't really understand the magnetic pull or spark you talk about. It seems foreign to me. I have felt a spark for guys in my life but not really like what you described you meant. It sounds sort of mystical and vague and outside your control, and I don't relate with that idea at all. I know I haven't done the reading that you have. Maybe I've always been missing something...or maybe it is that your book is overanalyzing.
What about arranged marriages? I've heard in countries where they are the norm they can be very happy and fulfilling, lifelong partnerships. They don't have the expectation or search for some ephemeral "spark" - they just learn how to make a good marriage and do that. Not that they're all always good, but I find it hard to believe that they're all always unfulfilling because they're not based on a "spark."
With my H, in the worst of times, I thought of this as an arranged marriage, that I arranged. I chose him, I gave myself to him, this was what we had, and we needed to make it work. I failed to see that we also needed to make it good. I let a long time go by where we were not making each other happy, and just thought in time we'd figure it out. We should have felt responsible for fixing it before it got worse.
CV, you're part of a majority that wonder why I'm with H, and I'm wondering it more and more too. From the beginning this seemed like a lucky chance at a do-over, even if it was a painful bomb. But I don't and didn't want to be someone who thought so little of marriage that I'd walk away at the first request for a D from my H. I feel responsible to myself and my kids to leave no stone unturned to find a chance for reconciliation.
When you read about the phases of marriage, it seems like a lot of marriages make it past rocky times to a more mature and better love, and I hope for that. I won't put up with it for 25 or 10 more years, all I know is today I'm not done.
Ziplining was superfun! We all had a great time!
So, agape is how I've always viewed married love. It's something you have and give even when your spouse farts or embarasses you at a party, or doesn't pick up his underwear off the floor. I didn't realize there was much you could do about the annoyances because I lacked the tools to navigate effectively when my H's actions intruded on my comfort or happiness. And vice versa. We'd bicker or nitpick or tolerate, but there were better tools we didn't know about. But through it all I felt agape type of love.
Thanks CES for the new terms. So agape is how you've always viewed married love -- do you still? Is it still enough? If your H gave you agape, but no phileo or eros, would that be enough for you?
I have some friends visiting us this week, I've known them both since college. I look at their marriage and they definitely have all 3 kinds of love flowing. They truly enjoy each other's company and make each other laugh (phileo), they enjoy having sex with each other and being romantic (eros), and they love each other unconditionally (agape). Because they have all 3, I don't believe that they have to work *as hard* as other couples might. Not to say that they don't still have to work, they do.
I guess what I was saying Ad is that you can have agape with your parents, your kids, your friends, etc., there's nothing about agape that is exclusive to marriage, so why do we need marriage if it's the same as agreeing to agape?
I'm not trivializing agape because it doesn't "just happen" and it's not easy -- it takes work. It's a selfless kind of love that requires maturity to achieve. If you have "nice guy" issues where you make covert contracts and give in order to get, you're not providing agape love.
Providing that agape love requires motivation *because* it is work. What I'm suggesting is that the motivation can either spring from a sheer act of will, OR it can be fueled by phileo and eros. Whereas you say you view married love as agape, I view it as agape AND phileo, with occasional bouts of eros, or at least a very strong memory of eros for fuel.
If your spouse told you they loved you, but really didn't like you that much or enjoy your company would that be enough for you? That's agape without phileo or eros.
If your spouse told you they loved you and liked your companionship, but were not physically attracted to you and had no romantic feelings for you, would that be enough? (agape and phileo without eros)
If your spouse told you that they love you, and are physically attracted to you and love having sex, but otherwise just don't enjoy your company too much, would that be enough for you? (agape and eros without phileo)
See what I'm saying? I believe that if all three are not present in some measure, that you're headed for trouble.
To address StubbornDyke's point, I'm not suggesting that marriage has to be magical with all three types of love always in abundance, but I'm saying that they have to be there a little bit. I'm saying that you can choose to provide agape, but I don't believe you can decide to *feel* phileo or eros. You can work on setting the stage for them, and can make yourself open to them, but you cannot will them to happen like you can with agape.
Acc I did confuse your word attraction for physical or sexual attraction. I don't really understand the magnetic pull or spark you talk about. It seems foreign to me. I have felt a spark for guys in my life but not really like what you described you meant. It sounds sort of mystical and vague and outside your control, and I don't relate with that idea at all. I know I haven't done the reading that you have.
In this case I'm not sharing something I read. What does "attraction" mean to you? Is attraction only physical and sexual? Have you ever seen someone you thought was really physically attractive and then they opened their mouth and just killed it for you? Have you ever met someone who wasn't super physically attractive to you, but they had this great, compelling personality that made you laugh and just feel good to be around them?
I guess if I were to be more specific I would say that attraction requires that someone be physically attractive *enough* to meet your standards, AND have a personality that appeals to you and makes you feel good about yourself and good about them AND complements your personality in such a way that it *feels* like a good match to you. I think initially there also needs to be some element of challenge there -- that this person is worth having by virtue of the fact that they don't just throw themselves at your feet.
What about arranged marriages? I've heard in countries where they are the norm they can be very happy and fulfilling, lifelong partnerships.
I've also heard directly that they can be lifelong torture-fests. I haven't researched or discussed enough to be able to comment on arranged marriages.
I feel like I've taken us way off track from helping you with your sitch and I apologize for that == but I did want to respond.
Accuray
Acc, I think the most important thing you mentioned is being open to the kinds of love you're saying are essential in a marriage.
They should all be there at least some of the time, but sometimes they're not. If you're open to repairing things that are lacking, you're partly there. If you try and you just don't feel it can be repaired, then I guess it is over.
I would not stay in a marriage with someone who told me they would never feel attracted to me again if I believed that was true. I think people's minds go all over the place in a crisis and it's possible to say never and be wrong.
I would not stay in or have gotten into a marriage with only sexual attraction.
The spark thing is still difficult for me to get. To build the love that got us married with kids, I thought H looked nice first, then he spoke and I thought he was funny and smart, and along the way the more I got to know him the positives outweighed the negatives. We found more compatibility over time. We spent time getting to know each other, we liked being together more and more, and so love built on experiences. At any point I might have ruled him out if I saw something in him that overshadowed his more attractive qualities.
So just because someone is nice-looking there isn't spark that could vanish if they open their mouth and are crass or have gross teeth.
It was more like I saw snowflakes coming down and almost all of them stuck and then without having seen it happen the ground was covered in snow. No 'spark' but an accumulation of many ideas, images, and experiences that to me all spoke of someone I believed was a good life partner for me.
I think we're in agreement but not quite connecting. The "spark" or "attraction" is what motivated you to be patient and allow the snowflakes to accumulate with this man versus another. I'm sure you met other attractive men who could make you laugh, but there was something intangibly different about this man, even if it was slight initially.
It was *that* intangible bit that helped you stay when new snowflakes stopped falling, when old snowflakes started to melt, and when H came out with his snowblower.
There's something intangible there that makes this much more than an intellectual decision.
Accuray
Nope, there wasn't. I don't believe in 'soul mates' or 'the ONE.' Neither does my H. I wanted a certain kind of life, my own career, some kids, a wonderful husband, love and security and a happy home. I have been in love and considered marrying three men only; the first I allowed to end because I saw his controlling and cruel side potentially turned on me (he was in charge of 'pledge training' at his frat). The second I allowed to end because of his risk-taking and drug use. H was wonderful and nothing was a serious red flag to me so we grew together and after four years couldn't see a life without each other so we married, and after four years of enjoying marriage together we took the leap and had kids.
I don't believe I know what the intangible special thing is, and if I thought it played a part in my marriage, I think we would have been over when H told me he wasn't attracted to me anymore. I am 100% certain that I could turn that around with openness to change on h's part. That requires me not to believe in some 'intangible' thing you just can't help.
I don't know if I'm lacking something most people have, or if I'm just fine, but I live more in my intellect than in my physical, emotional, or spiritual side, it is where I am 'me.' My IC has noted how deeply I feel and how extremely emotionally aware I am of others, or how empathetic, so I don't think I'm missing something. But that's where I start thinking again about my 'color blue' argument.
hoo wee, that was on h3ll of a weekend. My 14yo is testing in all sorts of ways, and H and I have big challenges to deal with. I knew this would be coming and it was one of the reasons I was so extremely angry at H for deciding to leave *now*, with two boys who need their dad so desperately for the next few years. I would have rather divorced when the kids were smaller if we were going to anyway. I know it's bad at any age though.
I spent lots of moments this weekend railing against my challenges, but this morning I remembered what helped before. I need to realize this is my new normal, suck it up and get better at dealing with it. Railing against it doesn't help. I've got to float with the current I'm in and make the best of it that I can.
Ad,
Sorry you have to deal with 14yr old who's testing limits. Maybe look at it as an opportunity to work together with H as you try to figure out how to handle S's recent adventures.
Ad,
I am sorry to hear it was such a tough weekend.
You're right, D is tough on kids at any age. 14 would be especially tough, though. I was 12-13 when my parents D'd. Hopefully your H will be involved in the boys' life even if he is leaving. I think it's very important that he is.
Your children are a factor in your H crisis. Seems like your H has a rigid ideas about desipline which may not be so effective given your boys age and temperment. Since all he knows he is how to rule with an iron fist yet subconsciously he knows it will prob not be effective with his boys. He cant bear to be ineffective parenting his boys. Part of his decision to walk away is because he is afraid of their teenage years. If he leaves he will not be ineffective, and it is not his fault that he has to leave its your fault.
(My diagnosis based on following your sitch for 9 months, take what you like..:)
Bklyn Mom I think you're right that it is a factor. He did admit that he thinks its my fault for the kids being the way they are; it's one of the reasons he gave his mom last year for why he wanted a divorce. I don't think it's the only factor but definitely one. Talking with the counselor the few times he did I think opened his eyes just a little.
I asked him last night if he ever did any of the things s is doing and he did not, not at his age and some things not ever. He never smoked at all, not anything. He never drank in high school. He was too busy working hard to get into a good college. I think he just plain doesn't understand why his kids aren't like he was.
I asked him if he ever lied to his mom, and he said he never did; his mom never asked him any questions.
Ad, what did the counselor tell him that you think "opened his eyes?"
interesting application of "using the letter of the law to override the spirit of the law". Just because he didn't "lie" doesn't mean there was not deception....
How can it be your fault that the kids turned out the way they did, and how can he look at your kids at their ages and think something is wrong with them?
If they know they are a disappointment to their father, do you know what that will do to their self-esteem and self-worth? If your H thinks your kids "turned out badly" he's as @sshole and has no one to blame but himself.
CV most of the time we spent in counseling, which was just a few sessions together and then twice with the kids, she sort of refereed our different styles and pointed out strong points and flaws in each. I think she opened his eyes a little to the fact that he's also responsible for how they grow up, and that leaving me won't change that. He's been occasionally more involved, and the recent episode where he wanted to wait until after he wasn't angry anymore before dealing with S14 was something the counselor talks about a lot. The counselor also talked to him about how he comes across when he is very loud and seems very angry over the slightest thing; she suggested he try to moderate his tone a little. Though he said the counseling seemed pointless there are a few things I think seeped in.
Thanks for the clarification, Adinva. I don't think I realized that your kids were part of the counseling ever, present or otherwise.
You've done a great job not villanizing your H and recognizing that both of you are at fault (better than I've done, admittedly.) I think one of the things you've admitted to as something you've contributed negatively to the R is that you often discounted your H's input. In regards to kids and this issue, I've seen it wreak havoc on the man in at least two close relationships -- my H with his ex/custody, and my brother with my SIL. I can tell you in both cases, when the man is trying to be the "man"/leader/disciplinarian/father and the wife (or ex-wife) undermines/overrides/discounts everything they do, it's very emasculating.
For my H, he said that he felt castrated in his role as his kids' father and talked about just walking away many times (he fought hard physically, emotionally and financially to get joint custody of his kids at the time of the D.) But with his ex working against him and his kids mimicking her attitude, he felt like he simply held no value as their father, and didn't want to be their "friend," and didn't want to appear to advocate their behavior by going along with their mother's dictates. If he had loved them any less or had any less of a personal desire to be their father in an active way, I know he would have walked.
For my brother, he had a similar situation where my SIL would override any sort of discipline he attempted. She's just a softie (or too tired to deal with it) and would let my niece and nephew get away with things. By the time they became teenagers, they had developed some very bad behaviors and my SIL started to see a problem. So then she comes to my brother and wants him to step in and be the disciplinarian. He was very stand-offish. He told her that she had refused his assistance up until that point so he told her she could continue to handle it on her own, that she would just need to figure it out. Plus, he didn't feel like it was appropriate for her to play "good cop" and expect him to be the "bad cop," that she was just as capable of applying discipline as he was. It was a tough time for them. I completely understand my brother's position, though. As it stands, they worked something out, my brother stepped in, my SIL backed him up, and they've recently celebrated their 30th wedding anniversary. But it could have gone very badly.
I'm just wondering if this could be somewhat how your H is/was feeling. Especially in light of you saying that he likes to spend time with this other woman's kids moreso even than his own. Perhaps he simply doesn't feel like he's valued as a father to yours, whereas this other woman presents him respectfully and expects her kids to do so as well.
I know I'm reading WAY deep into this, but it's just what came to mind when I was reading your comments and others responses to it. I definitely don't feel like he's being an @sshole if he feels like he's been pushed out/overridden/disrespected/devalued as their father for years.
That was a really good post, CV.
That was really good -- if you ever watched "Nanny 911" or any of the other out of control kids shows, the 100% repeatable formula for out of control kids was to have a mother who never enforces any discipline and constantly overrides the father. Often she'll scream and yell but never enforces consequences. The fathers were generally checked out and just watched TV and did their own thing ignoring the chaos with the kids and thinking it was the wife's job, or they just got tired of being overridden.
Thing is, I don't believe Ad is in this cycle, because I don't think her kids are out of control, and I DO think she enforces discipline. Sorry if my last post came across as strong but damn, he is their father, they can't pick another one. Its his responsibility to raise them to the best of his ability and to love and support them no matter what. Giving up on preteen kids and condemning them as unworthy just doesn't compute with me and from my perspective there is NO excuse for that. Don't allow yourself to be overridden, be responsible.
Sorry to hijack AD but Accuman described me to a T. I was the uninvolved father and W always went against my better judgement when it came to my D. So after a while you just give up and say eff it. Not a good thing to do. I'm here because I tried to enforce some rules with D last summer. Did it the wrong way. But I won't let it happened again regardless of what W thinks. So this past weekend I told D that it was time for her to hit the bed by 10 pm since school starts in 2 weeks. She's been doing that.
Acc, I don't think the kids have to be "out of control" in order for the father to feel pushed out of his parenting role. My niece and nephew certainly weren't, they (my nephew mostly) were just doing things like Ad described. In fact, the kids could be perfectly well-behaved and that might even be worse. Then there's proof that the father isn't "needed."
Ad, I hope you're around to chime in on this. I've gone way out on a limb here and read in a lot, and I don't want to take everyone out there with me with my comments.
CV, I keep writing and deleting posts. Your brother really did that without offering an alternative? He couldn't have gone to her at some point and said, "I'd like to be more involved"?
Of course it's difficult to look into anyone else's situation and know what's really going on.
I see the challenge. During my sitch, W has "arranged" her life so that she coordinated with the kids and it made it difficult to be part of the family. Summers were spent away. Homework was organized & discussed before I got home from work. School info was not shared, dinner time was the 3 of them getting everything set, etc. etc.
I had to change my behaviors and take it upon myself to find out info and ask more questions. It turned out to be a good practice for me but my natural tendancy was to shrink back because I was not wanted someplace. But this was my kids, and I wasn't going to let that happen.
One funny thing that ended up happening was that I went to an awards thing for my S. W had said nothing to me and actually had not known about it until the last minute. When she got there, she was surprised to see me already sitting down.
I think its natural for a man to gravitate away from any situation where he does not feel respected. Not saying the tendancy is alwasy good. Its just there. Like so many other things we have to recognize these tendancies in ourselves and determine when they are helpful and when they are harmful, and then act in a way that is productive.
ManySome of us were raised with that as a model for fatherhood, mom handled all but the really bad stuff, which went to Dad but mostly, Dad came home and sat on the couch and read the paper. As a society we've had a hard time shaking that.
Good on you, ces, for seeing that as a problem and seeking a way to change it.
Yeah I think we're discussing two things here that are actually different:
1) The role of the father in parenting, getting pushed aside or being active etc.
2) The responsibility of the father (and mother) to love their kids unconditionally, support them, and make them feel like their parents have their backs.
I'm really only passionate about #2 in this debate. If the father wants to sit on the couch and watch TV, that's not great, but it's much better than letting his kids know they are a disappointment.
One of W's friends told her daughter (who is 8) that she liked her son more and didn't really like her daughter at all. Stuff like that is inexcusable, that's just setting up a lifetime of self esteem and relationship problems for the kid.
That's my issue with Ad's H as a father -- and I don't think being "pushed aside" is a valid excuse not to love and support your kids. You can use that as an excuse not to be an active parent, but not to pull back on love and support.
In a relationship, I believe we have a responsibility to meet our spouse's needs if we want to keep them. Our kids owe us no such debt. There is nothing they should have to do to earn your approval or your love.
Accuray
Yes.
But I think the one situation can lead into the other-Dad is passive, Dad chooses to remain passive, or only steps in with overblown reaction when things are 'out of control', Mom reacts negatively to that, Dad returns to passive, resentment builds. As time goes on Dad blames kid behaviors on Mom.
I don't think kids should have to earn a parent's love. But I can still love my kids and not approve of all of their choices.
I would guess that if asked Ad's H would say he loves his kids he just doesn't approve of their behavior.
Well this is a wonderful discussion. I hope it's not completely lost on Adinva because it's off base.
ces, I wasn't involved in everything that went on with my brother's sitch behind closed doors. I only know that prior to the blow-up, I saw multiple situations where my brother attempted to get involved and my SIL shut him down. Did he specifically state his need? I don't know. I do know he tried to be involved in an active way, and to me, actions always speak louder than words.
Acc, you make a very good point, and I completely agree with you. As with most things, however, easier said than done. I saw so much of this issue with my H and his ex and his kids, I'm at a complete loss as to what my H could have done to accomplish what you're suggesting. How do you love and support your children when they refuse to abide the custody schedule and are rarely around you? How do you love and support your children when they argue everything you say because "mom said..."? How do you support your child when they are doing the exact opposite of something you support (ie. 14yo girl going to Homecoming driven by a 16yo boy you've never met, staying out until 2:00am, and ignoring the custody schedule that says it's your weekend to stay at mom's because mom says all this is fine.) Do you go over to mom's and take pics of her lovely dress and hair? Do you tell her you hope she has a wonderful night? Do you ask for all the wonderful fun details of the night the next time you see her?
I know that a conflictual D/custody sitch is worse (and part of my own motivation to stay M'd for son's sake,) but the basis of the problem is the same.
How do you show love/support to someone when they are doing something you don't love/support? Is this question re: our kids really any different than what we all have to deal with as spouses? How do we love/support our spouses when they are doing things we don't love/support?
Sorry, ces, that was supposed to be addressed to labug.
I may be simplifying but I think much of it comes down to being willing to have difficult conversations before things get beyond the pale.
At least that's the truth for me.
CV and Labug -- there's an important distinction there between not approving of their actions and not approving of them as a person.
If we don't approve of their actions, it's our duty to guide and discipline. The message is "you are worthy and I love you but you're making bad choices and I'm going to help you with that (whether you like it or not)"
The alternative is "I don't approve of the person you are, and therefore no matter what you do you won't have my support"
I thought Ad's H was coming in with the second message -- these kids are turning out badly because of Ad. That's different than these are great kids but they are doing bad things.
If I misread then I will do an Emily Litella and say "never mind" to conclude my long rant
Well I'm back! I've been working hard on a work project and missed all the fun.
My situation is not quite so cut and dried. We've sat with our counselor and she seems to think I do a good job of discipline within a strong sense of each kid's individual needs and abilities, but am sometimes overly indulgent or think something naughty is cute, not as a general rule but sometimes. She also agreed with H on some of his discipline ideas while suggesting that he needed to tone down his approach and pay attention to what the kids actually need. So we don't fit the sitch where the wife ignored the husband and the husband gave up.
However, it was quite clear in counseling that my H wanted things a way that he wasn't communicating and then resented that they weren't that way. I didn't understand or read him correctly, and he didn't seem able to communicate, and he didn't understand why I didn't just see it exactly the same as he did.
There were a few times I asked him to get help because we weren't communicating with each other, but he refused to go to counseling or workshops or anything related to our church.
We were on a seesaw like is described in The Dance of Anger, where over time he got more and more overbearing, mean, even sometimes downright cruel to the kids, and I became more and more nurturing, protective, and nice to them to make up for it. When the bomb first hit I thought the kids should not be with him because I was afraid for them; he was calling my 11yo a jerk with regularity, he would take something of S13's and destroy it in front of him as an object lesson. He was a miserable person to be around, and I didn't support his ideas of discipline and he didn't invite my input. I knew the dynamic wasn't right but I didn't know how to fix it - if I acted mean to the kids would he then come back closer to nice? I was afraid to try that. I just did not know what to do. A lot changed since the bomb so I can barely remember now, but I recall it was pretty bad then.
H has told me he loves the kids, but he says it like "of course" and I don't think he's thought much about what it will be like living separate and dealing with the things described above. When H is acting like a complete a$$ the boys may not want to be around him when they're supposed to be; maybe they'll get busy with friends and try to steer clear of him. He'll get disillusioned and pull away from them too, and eventually they stop caring about each other. I worry about that, but I can't know that will happen and I can't manage it or control it anyway. On the other hand, maybe without the stress of daily living with the kids he won't feel like he has to be the hard guy all the time and can relax and have more fun with them.
I see a lot of our dynamics have changed as a result of my counseling. I see H acting a bit more controlled and rational. I talk to him and don't fly off the handle. Both of us use words instead of a sarcastic tone or a flip remark like we used to; not always but a lot more than before. So I think we're positioned to be much better at handling family stresses than we were at BD.
I won't fall on my sword and say that I disrespected him and diminished him or emasculated him. I did none of those things intentionally, and in most cases had no idea what it was that he didn't like about things because he wasn't saying. What I do believe is that we did not have the skills and tools necessary to navigate our conflicts and over time the unresolved conflicts snowballed into a constant tension and dissatisfaction that seemed impossible to overcome.
The kid H spends so much time with is not an OW's kid, it's his friend (male, divorced) whose son lives in another state and visits occasionally. When the son comes to visit, H seems to feel responsible for helping his friend entertain the son, so he spends a ton of time over there. My son is about the same age but sometimes just wants to be home or with his regular friends, so this summer it was mostly just H heading over there to hang out without the rest of us. It's weird. I have no idea if it's about respect. H's friend and his son are often at odds, with the boy failing classes and talking disrespectfully to his dad, and his dad threatening to stop talking to him in return. The mother apparently is completely psycho and had the police involved many times over child exchange disputes.
As much as I'm more comfortable hovering around the fringes of your discussion, I will absorb it and give it more thought over time. My ego's pretty resilient but it's not completely impervious so I catch myself protecting it sometimes.
(((hugs to all and thanks for your input on my thread)))
Ad, just so you know, as I re-read my posts I see I was actually writing about the dynamics of my situation. I don't know how that might relate to yours.
I think its interesting that your H wants to spend time with other versus his own. I cant quite figure out why. It may have to do with not having any of the responsibility but just being able to enjoy the fun part of being with a kid.
My H was doing something similar. We have a 2 yr old daughter who is truly the cutest little girl ever, she is a doll. (I am totally not biased) But yet my H couldnt stop telling me about his friends daughter who was the same age and how cute she was. I found it strange -- almost this disconnect.
My H has also taken on other people's kids. For the past nine months or so, he's felt bad for a friend whose husband left and pretty much ignored his three daughters. So H spends time and money on them so they don't feel left out.
Now, my H had custody of his S11 for about six weeks this summer and didn't spend much time with him at all. He was busy taking on jobs and even having his bf watch S so that he could go out with other friends.
I think our H's do want to be there for their kids, but they just can't be right now. They think they can be good influences on the other kids, but are just reminded of their failures with their own.
I know it's frustrating, but you can't do anything about his actions. Just be the best mom you can be as that is all you can control.
I'm starting a new thread.