BREAKDOWN
I'd like to participate if still possible.
1) Just a few sentence background
Married 15 yrs, 5 kids (one mine before marriage). W got tired of dealing with my insecurity/jealousy, combined with my continued unhappiness. Multiple EAs on her side, one ongoing. Bomb dropped Feb 15 2011, and repeated multiple times since then, but no action yet. Currently in retrovaille...W has agreed to finish program, but isn't really buying in.
2) what you think you need most help with (staying on track, brainstorming solutions, setting goals, etc)
I've read so many books and coupled with the retrov, I am confused most days how I should be behaving. Do I need to detach, or talk about my feelings? Should I be excluding her or including her. How should I react to continued negative behavior?
Hi Breakdown --
I'd like to suggest a vet have experience with Retrouvaille and DB. I know several of the folks on the MLC forum have that experience.
Also someone with experience with the long haul and or affairs.
Breakdown....
What is it that YOU want to work on ?
You mention that you need to work on your insecurities, and jealousy issues...
Why do you think that you are like that ?
Where do you think that the root of those issues lives ?
I would like to see more of your focus onto what you can control, and setting goals for your life that include things that are just for you.
I read that you recently ( ? ) went to your son's baseball game, and were miffed at the lack of presence from your wife...
That is a waste of energy, and you are giving away too much of your power in those situations. Sometimes, we need to find the good in any situation. And the more we focus on the bad, the more the bad stares us down and attacks us.
What part of DBing, would allow you to change how you view scenarios like that in the future ?
The things that you are seeing, aren't normal behaviors of a woman that is ready to commit to a marriage right now. It suks, yet it is a reality that you are facing.
I would ask that you set yourself up, with a list of things that you do not like about yourself.
Listen to the complaints of your wife, and really think about them. DB says to believe none of what they say, although in this instance, you should really listen to her, and the things that YOU want to change within yourself, you should look at.
In the early stages, I made a list of qualities that I wanted to show the world every day. And those things were for me, and me alone. I did my best to live up to my own standards daily...regardless of the craziness around me.
There are some things also that I read, that I would like for you to think about....
Jealousy
Insecurities
Controlling behavior
Judgmental behavior
Superiority behavior
Do you think that you have displayed any of those ???
Our choice when we decide to post here, is to be different than we were before. We decide that the old way isn't/wasn't working anymore. And that there is a different way of thinking and behaving.
In the past, we operated with the set of tools that we gained through a lifetime of observing the people that we respected the most.
What we gain with DB, is a different set of tools that we carry toward the future.
Thanks. I'll try to answer some of these now, but others I'll have to do some work on and get back to you.
What is it that YOU want to work on ?
I've come a long way on this one already, but things I want to continue to do:
- be more patient
- really listen
- show unconditional love for kids and W
- learn to trust again
- shed my insecurities
- be more upbeat and lighthearted
I've done a lot of work on most of these, but there's still a lot of work to be done.
Listen to the complaints of your wife, and really think about them. DB says to believe none of what they say, although in this instance, you should really listen to her, and the things that YOU want to change within yourself, you should look at.
I will do this with the wife in the next couple of days. We have some dialoguing on the schedule as well as a retrovaille follow-up, so there should be an opportunity to openly ask for some feedback here.
You mention that you need to work on your insecurities, and jealousy issues...
Why do you think that you are like that ?
Where do you think that the root of those issues lives ?
I've spent an awful lot of time working on this one, as I think it was the main thing that was pushing my wife away, and negatively affecting my behavior in an awful lot of ways.
I think this came from the fact that my parents divorced when I was about 9. They weren't great parents to begin with, but once divorced, they barely knew we existed. I took my younger brother on as my responsibility, and I pretty much stopped being a fun loving kid at that point.
Throughout my childhood, I think my parents reiterated this over and over. I think this is where I really became reluctant to open up and be vunerable. With my wife, even when we were teenagers, she was one of the few people I really felt vunerable with. For that reason, my insecurities were significantly higher with her, and frankly, as adults, she managed around my insecurities rather than me addressing them and putting them to rest.
I think I also got a "think the worst" attitude, called negative thinking according to the things I've read. Never addressed it until recently and I think it's really become a bad habit. I am making huge strides, but it's still work. When my wife comes home 2 hours late smelling like beer, I'm not thinking she was working on a deal over beers, or even that she stopped and had a beer with a girlfriend, I immediately think she's been with someone else. And once you get that in your head, it's difficult to be kind or even ask the question in a decent way. I read "Learning to Trust" and that really helped me, but it's a work in progress.
There are some things also that I read, that I would like for you to think about....
Jealousy
Insecurities
Controlling behavior
Judgmental behavior
Superiority behavior
Do you think that you have displayed any of those ???
Yes on all of those. Jealousy and insecurity where my main issues I think...controlling I think was a derivative. Judgemental and superiority, yeah, I'm ashamed to say I've been pretty bad at those too. Judgemental I think I have really put behind me. There was an episode of Joel Olstein where he focused on judging, and it really hit home. I didn't really see the superiority issues in myself until recently, but I can definitely see that my wife has dealt with it. Some may be her own insecurities, but I definitely haven't built her up the way a H should.
Good thinking points. Thanks!!
What is it that YOU want to work on ?
I've come a long way on this one already, but things I want to continue to do:
- be more patient
- really listen
- show unconditional love for kids and W
- learn to trust again
- shed my insecurities
- be more upbeat and lighthearted
I've done a lot of work on most of these, but there's still a lot of work to be done.
What do you see as a common theme here ?
What are you doing to address these things ?
HOW are you working on patience?
HOW are you learning to listen?
Lets start with those two...
They will incorporate into being more upbeat, and the other ones, we will address later
Listen to the complaints of your wife, and really think about them. DB says to believe none of what they say, although in this instance, you should really listen to her, and the things that YOU want to change within yourself, you should look at.
I will do this with the wife in the next couple of days. We have some dialoguing on the schedule as well as a retrovaille follow-up, so there should be an opportunity to openly ask for some feedback here.
This, I have a hard time reading....
And I think that it falls into that catagory of insecurity for you. You are looking toward her to 'fix' you. The things I was referring you to, were the things that you have already spoken of. I believe that asking now, would come across as a ploy from you, and insecure.
Most WAS/MLCers can smell fake like Oprah can smell a Twinkie at a picnic....
What you work toward, is from the information that you already have inside of your own noggin....
You mention that you need to work on your insecurities, and jealousy issues...
Why do you think that you are like that ?
Where do you think that the root of those issues lives ?
I've spent an awful lot of time working on this one, as I think it was the main thing that was pushing my wife away, and negatively affecting my behavior in an awful lot of ways.
I think this came from the fact that my parents divorced when I was about 9. They weren't great parents to begin with, but once divorced, they barely knew we existed. I took my younger brother on as my responsibility, and I pretty much stopped being a fun loving kid at that point.
Throughout my childhood, I think my parents reiterated this over and over. I think this is where I really became reluctant to open up and be vunerable. With my wife, even when we were teenagers, she was one of the few people I really felt vunerable with. For that reason, my insecurities were significantly higher with her, and frankly, as adults, she managed around my insecurities rather than me addressing them and putting them to rest.
I think I also got a "think the worst" attitude, called negative thinking according to the things I've read. Never addressed it until recently and I think it's really become a bad habit. I am making huge strides, but it's still work. When my wife comes home 2 hours late smelling like beer, I'm not thinking she was working on a deal over beers, or even that she stopped and had a beer with a girlfriend, I immediately think she's been with someone else. And once you get that in your head, it's difficult to be kind or even ask the question in a decent way. I read "Learning to Trust" and that really helped me, but it's a work in progress.
I understand completely with you here. I was much the same way. Those fears of abandonment that I had inside. I knew that bad things were gonna happen, and what eventually happened for me, was that those fears inside of me, actually became the things that I worked toward, instead of away from. Because I let that fear consume me from the inside. Once I faced those fears.....they weren't as bad as I had built them up to be in my mind.
With that, I can tell you that the worst thing that you can imagine....has already happened. Like it or not, you have stared at that fear that you had built up in your mind.
And you are still here. It didn't kill you, and it won't kill you.
How do you want to move froward from that ???
You...not your marriage, or your spouse.....
You....????
There are some things also that I read, that I would like for you to think about....
Jealousy
Insecurities
Controlling behavior
Judgmental behavior
Superiority behavior
Do you think that you have displayed any of those ???
Yes on all of those. Jealousy and insecurity where my main issues I think...controlling I think was a derivative. Judgemental and superiority, yeah, I'm ashamed to say I've been pretty bad at those too. Judgemental I think I have really put behind me. There was an episode of Joel Olstein where he focused on judging, and it really hit home. I didn't really see the superiority issues in myself until recently, but I can definitely see that my wife has dealt with it. Some may be her own insecurities, but I definitely haven't built her up the way a H should.
Good thinking points. Thanks!!
What do you think, has driven you to these types of behavior ?
Why do YOU think that you are judgmental ?
Additionally...
All of this, can become consuming.....quickly
That is one of the reasons that part of DBing is to GAL.
What are you doing to take a break from all of this ??
What new things are you trying ??
What is the one thing that scares the bejeezus out of you when you think of doing it ????
All of this, can become consuming.....quickly
That is one of the reasons that part of DBing is to GAL.
What are you doing to take a break from all of this ??
What new things are you trying ??
What is the one thing that scares the bejeezus out of you when you think of doing it ????
Yeah, there's a lot of deep thinking that has to happen in order to answer some of these questions. I've been reading so many books on relationships, spending time here, and doing the retrov, sometimes it does get overwhelming.
I did start playing golf again this year, just once per week with friends, but we usually do dinner after. This is about the only time I actually do anything out of the house, and yet the W still takes pot shots at me for it. I have a ton of recreational books I'd like to dig into, but that's more "sitting at home" stuff. I have been working out (insanity!) and it's been fun...have some things like zombie run and tough mudder on the calendar for late summer. There are some other things I'd like to consider...taking my dad to see the pyramids and things like that, but I need do to some more thinking on that as well.
Oh, with regards to answer my W about things she would like to see me change, my thought on that actually came from "Desperate Marriages." In there he suggest asking your spouse what 1-2 things that they'd like to see you work on, after you have fed their love bank for a month or so. But you're right, I probably have all the info I need. She would love it if I was happier, upbeat, and wasn't so insecure. Outside of that, I think she already likes the rest of me, so I really do have a short list to work on.
HOW are you working on patience?
HOW are you learning to listen?
What do you think, has driven you to these types of behavior ?
Why do YOU think that you are judgmental ?
Getting ready to take a short family vacation and I got a book to read on Patience for the trip! Hopefully it's a good one.
With regards to listening, I've been trying more to listen as we learned in retrovaille. I'm typically a 'fixer' so I'm really trying to avoid coming up with solutions unless specifically asked to do so. This takes focus at this point, but it does make you really think about what's going on with your spouse. Instead of fixing, I ask about her feelings toward the topic.
For the judgmental piece, I didn't really think I was like that until I took a hard look at myself. Turns out that I was...big time. I think I've done a 180 on this one, but I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about where it came from. If I had to answer, I'd say three things drove it:
1) I came a long way from my where my family was so I did have a bit of a superiority thing going on. I was the first one in my entire family to graduate from college, did so on my own dime, and got a good job, which I excelled at.
2) Kinda tying in with #1, I think I had to build myself up when I was younger to get thru some of the hardships. Clearly, it got out of hand.
3) Insecurity. I think I constantly put other people down in order to make myself feel better. As I've gotten older, this took on more of a logic based judgement, but at the end of the day, it was still judgement.
I remember my wife and I having a discussion about beer. We both enjoy craft beer and I'm a bit of a beer snob. Whenever we had friends that would drink bud-lite, I'd always say something nasty about it, like "you didn't have to bring bud-lite, we have water." She really didn't like the judgment and in hindsight, it's pretty ugly to be like that, even when it was in a joking kind of way. I think I've made good strides on this one though, whether it's about beer, or marriage, or whatever.
Thanks again for the thought provoking questions and help. Enjoy the 4th and I'll post an update when I get back!
BD
Getting ready to take a short family vacation and I got a book to read on Patience for the trip! Hopefully it's a good one.
You can choose for it to be a good one.
With regards to listening, I've been trying more to listen as we learned in retrovaille. I'm typically a 'fixer' so I'm really trying to avoid coming up with solutions unless specifically asked to do so. This takes focus at this point, but it does make you really think about what's going on with your spouse. Instead of fixing, I ask about her feelings toward the topic.
You can practice listening with anyone. It doesn't have to be with your wife.
Pick out anyone in a grocery store that has the 'Gift of Gab' , and strike up a conversation with them. When you talk with them, you can practice listening, you can practice validation, and you can practice not being the 'fixer'. And it is certainly a lesson in patience. Talk about anything except your situation with them, and let them do the majority of the talking.
For the judgmental piece, I didn't really think I was like that until I took a hard look at myself. Turns out that I was...big time. I think I've done a 180 on this one, but I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about where it came from. If I had to answer, I'd say three things drove it:
1) I came a long way from my where my family was so I did have a bit of a superiority thing going on. I was the first one in my entire family to graduate from college, did so on my own dime, and got a good job, which I excelled at.
2) Kinda tying in with #1, I think I had to build myself up when I was younger to get thru some of the hardships. Clearly, it got out of hand.
3) Insecurity. I think I constantly put other people down in order to make myself feel better. As I've gotten older, this took on more of a logic based judgement, but at the end of the day, it was still judgement.
One of the things that I would ask myself was....
How is what I am saying, being perceived by the person listening to me ? , and would
I want to have a conversation with myself on this topic ????
It really opened my eyes when I thought of things in that regard...
The Family stuff...
It seems as though you have been seeking validation from your family. There is a difference between being superior, and taking Pride in what you have accomplished. Being proud of what you have accomplished is a very good thing. But it doesn't make you superior to anyone. Part of that really ties in to accepting people as they are, and respecting their choices, although they may be different from the choices you have made.
(What you can also learn, are the triggers that make you feel superior to them, and dig into those things, to find out WHY you feel that way.)
When that happens within a relationship, over the years, it really comes across as controlling to another person. It comes across as anything EXCEPT unconditional love.
I'm not asking you this to peeve you off...
Are you really that much better than anyone in your family ? Are you a "better" person than the guy sitting on the corner who is homeless ????
Are you a better person than your wife ???
Have you taken any time with your family now ? With a fresh set of eyes , and new listening skills ?
A really good way of overcoming this, is to volunteer at a homeless shelter, or spend a day working at the food bank. Even to organize a Food Drive at your work. Then see the life in these people, who don't want your charity. What you see, is a human, with life, and emotion. Some are there because they choose to make crappy choices, some are there because they have circumstances beyond their control. And all they want is a chance. ALL of them have a soul, and really are created equal...
It really is a very humbling experience...
What are some things that you can do ?
Food bank ?
Habitat for Humanity?
Homeless shelter?
Animal shelter ?
I remember my wife and I having a discussion about beer. We both enjoy craft beer and I'm a bit of a beer snob. Whenever we had friends that would drink bud-lite, I'd always say something nasty about it, like "you didn't have to bring bud-lite, we have water." She really didn't like the judgment and in hindsight, it's pretty ugly to be like that, even when it was in a joking kind of way. I think I've made good strides on this one though, whether it's about beer, or marriage, or whatever.
I think a lot of that plays into the judgement thing that you eluded to.
Judgement comes from control. And it is one area that I would like for you to recognize. I'm not saying that you are, although I can see certain aspects of that.
Control is a BIG issue with the WAS, and I haven't met too many LBS that haven't heard that. Learning about control, and how it plays out will be an eye opener for you.
One of the BIGGEST forms of control......is criticism...
I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you. It was partly due to not having power for 4 days, and partly because I wasn't sure if it was my turn yet....lol
I wasn't sure if you were still pondering some of the questions from above....
So....
With that said...
You are up my friend !!!
do you want this thread 'stuck' or is it ok to unstick?
Back from vacation...filled with ups and downs as you might expect. Haven't spent much time on anything....will post some status in a few days when I recover and have had time to think. Didn't get far in my new book, but I like what I've read so far.
I'm not asking you this to peeve you off...
Are you really that much better than anyone in your family ? Are you a "better" person than the guy sitting on the corner who is homeless ????
Are you a better person than your wife ???
First off, don't worry about asking tough questions. I think I, just like most of us here, need to be asked those...need to think thru them, and face some of the things we haven't wanted to, or haven't thought about.
To answer your question, a year ago, I'd have said yes, but my measuring stick would have been how much I made, or how much I saved, or how much education I have, or something along those lines. Today, I'd say no...I may be at a different point in my life than they are, I may be facing different challenges than they are, but I'm certainly no better. Some of it is related to faith and how I've grown there, but overall, I don't think this is a major issue for me today.
One example....my older sister went thru the same childhood I did, but was older, so got more of the responsibility. She eventually turned to drugs and has still been struggling with them. Most of my family has turned away from her, with the exception of my mother. I really haven't had anything to do with her in 20 years. Well, a few months ago I was thinking about an Joel Osteen show we saw on judging people and it hit me, I've judged her my whole life instead of trying to lift her up. I called her and we talked for hours. My message to her was "Hey, I'm no better than you, we came from the same place and faced the same problems. You dealt with them different than I, but we're the same in more ways than not." She was so uplifted by the talk....I felt like for the first time, I reached out to her and tried to lift her up instead of putting her down. It was difficult to do, but I these days I think that's a responsibility I have.
And yes, I'm thinking of how I can give back in other ways. I haven't made the leap yet, but I've been thinking a lot about the gifts God has given me and how I can use them to help others instead of just worrying about myself.
Oh, one thing that came up yesterday (again) that relates to something I posted in my thread I wanted to mention. My wife's love language is words of affirmation. I not only withheld that for most of our marriage, I did a pretty good job of taking her in the other direction. Even when my insecurities didn't get in the way, I found it difficult to make the words come out when I thought something nice. I've made huge strides in trying to voice things when I think of them....I tell my wife when I think she looks nice, I thank her for cooking, etc etc. Most of the time, it's just simply putting to voice my thoughts...I'm not sitting around thinking this stuff up. While this comes directly from 5 Love Languages, it seems to work with retrovaille (we're supposed to try to say something positive in our dialoguing). However, it seems opposite of DB....and I think my wife definitely views it as pursuing and certainly doesn't believe most of it.
For example, about a week ago, my wife looked great before she left for work....I meant to say it out loud before she left, but the morning was hectic and I forgot. About an hour later I remembered and went ahead and text it to her. Later that evening, she told me how she thought it was fake, how texting was somehow a safe way to do it, how she'd have preferred I write it on a note for her when she got home, etc etc.
I am not sure what I'm supposed to do here.....do I stick with my changes, or do I limit these kinds of things to our dialoguing or what? I realize she needs space, and in a way, I think this is causing more harm than help.
Another tid-bit that came up again yesterday (she's told me this numerous times now) is that she's been intentionally being disrespectful, selfish, etc etc over the last year because she was trying to get me to leave her, so she wouldn't have to take the blame (evidently the blame is a big thing for her). She's really stopped most of the negative behavior, but in her mind, she stills sees herself as with one foot out the door. Not sure if this sheds any light on anything, but it felt like the chapter changed a little so I thought I'd mention it.
Starting to ramble, so I'll break for now.
Unfortunately, things have deteriorated. Vacation was up and down, and I think overall, she's decided in her head she's not willing to do anything so she's just been waiting for, really looking for, some justification to proceed to divorce.
On my side, I think my biggest problem has been patience. I am really working hard to try to be patient, but I think we have some misunderstandings between us as well that are increasing the problems.
Couple of things recently that came to light:
1) W told me she basically told the man she is having an EA with that he is the reason she is able to get up every day...he indicated it was the same with him
2) I saw on my internet history very late Monday night that she had spent the evening looking for apartments
3) W saw divorce attorney Tuesday and turned in a parenting plan. We discussed this last night and she said the attorney said she was screwed if she moved out, screwed if she stayed.
4) W has indicated that her feeling is that I'm controlling the entire situation and am not willing to do anything different
On the control issue, I will admit, yes, I've been controlling and with regards to the relationship, yes, I have been leading. I told her that I was only leading because she only wanted to lead us to divorce and I wanted to improve it. With that said, I relinquished control yesterday and told her she could figure out how she thought we should move forward and let me know. She said that's not really giving her control because I've already indicated what I will accept. I disagreed and said I was willing to discuss any scenario, but that didn't mean I'd automatically agree.
I scheduled an appointment for my own attorney today...will see her Monday to find out what my rights are.
Last night, W comes home, surprised I didn't go to golf and asked me what happened. I said it was just too hot. She asked if I was staying home and I said, I was planning on it, but could find something to do if she preferred I leave for a while. She said no, offered to make me a plate for dinner. We sat in bed and she grabbed my hand and said "you're my friend." I was starting to work on one of our dialogue questions and we talked about her attorney appt, her expectations, thoughts, etc. We only talked about an hour, but it became clear she felt trapped and thought I was being rigid. I tried to explain how flexible I was, but I'm not sure she believed me.
She also told me that she thought everything I was doing, holding her hand, telling her she looked nice, etc, was geared towards ML. She believes that I think this is a way to keep her, by having creating a connection. I was frankly shocked at this, as I have really never been the aggressor (an issue for a long time until we discussed at some length a few years ago), and still am not due to how rocky our relationship has been. I realize this is making her feel pursued, but I was really surprised she thought I was actually thinking this way.
This morning we only had 30 mins or so and I tried to reiterate she had control, but needed to actually spend some time thinking about it rather than leave us in limbo. I also indicated I was flexible about things, but she left the conversation saying it didn't matter, because she was already done and wasn't willing to work on it. She said if I'd have been the person I am today 5 years ago, we wouldn't be at this point. Of course, nothing I can do about that.
Anyway, pretty upset and frustrated. I can see that she's conflicted....she wants to believe it I will stay as I am now but isn't willing to risk her heart again. Weird thing is, we're actually missing what I consider the most important retrovaille follow-up this weekend (forgiveness, trust, etc) because my brother is getting married. Oh the irony.
Well, I've been confused and back and forth on detaching versus actively working on things and it's become clear over the last few days that I should have detached. My problem was, every time I did detach, she pursued me and I took that to mean she was interested. The result was that she never got the space she needed. I see now that I should have forced the space, at least until she was ready to commit to working on things. I basically let her sit on the fence for the last year and got walked on continually.
We had a great time at the wedding Sat....we danced, kissed, acted like H/W & family. Sunday, she decides she's doing her own thing again...disappears for nearly 4 hours and when I went to store I saw her car at the local bar. I went in and found her with OM (something for work she says, and I honestly believe her as she wasn't drinking). I was panic'd, and tried to explain my feelings (without getting mad), but she decided to get mad instead and say she's done (again). She felt like I was stalking her and trying to control her....I can see her point, but she refuses to see mine. I should have detached and let it be.
She said she's moving out at the end of the month and wants kids every other week. She would rather swap weeks at the house so the kids aren't uprooted every week, and I agree, that is probably better short term, at least until we get out from under the house. I see an A today to go over what my options are.
She said she would still go to retrovaille post sessions if I wanted, but she doesn't buy into all of it. I'm not sure if it's even worth the time, but I think I've got to complete the program for my own sanity.
So maybe I can get some input on the following:
1) should I agree to every other week in the house or should I make her take the kids for the week she wants them. She's going to stay with her brother and I think that's crappy for the kids, and her brother's family. I have read "don't move out" a lot, but I'm not sure where this one lands.
2) should I agree to the divorce or drag my feet? On one side, if I don't agree, she'll think I'm trying to control her and on the other, if I do agree, everything will move that much faster. I'm kinda leaning towards letting her go as I recognize she needs space, but I've read a lot that I should not do anything to help with the process.
3) Last night, we talked a long time about her issues. Ultimately, she feels trapped. She feels controlled. She doesn't have the desire to try right now. She isn't saying she doesn't want to be with me, or work things out, she just desperately needs some space to work thru her own issues and see if she feels differently about our past. I get that, and I do agree....but I asked if there wasn't some other option that would allow her to get her space (i.e. in house separation, every other week w/o divorce). I think this probably seems like pursuing, but I really worry about the damage we might be doing to the kids just so she can figure out what she wants. Thoughts?
On the bright side, I think for the first time I'm clear about what I should be doing. Heading over to read the 37 rules again and will dust off DR for another read as well.
I talked to A today and got a little input on the situation. Nothing new, no surprises....basically what we've been discussing is ok.
I also went ahead and signed up for a couple of DB coaching sessions, as I feel I need to change gears and could use some help getting my head straight.
I'm here BD....
Just catching up, and I will be back shortly...
I'm here BD....
Just catching up, and I will be back shortly...
Thanks.....I know it's a lot to process, and I'm a bit of a mess at the moment.
Hiya Break. I hope my good friend Mach doesnt mind me stopping by. You are fortunate to have his input. He really makes you think.
If I may, I see that you are reading a lot of books on just about everything. And I am all for knowledge is power. But, the thing is, you cant let all this consume you.
It will make you craaazzzzy.
There are a few ways to figure out what you want to change about you. One of them is to take those things that your w has said and think about which ones are valid.
Then look at some people whose personality traits, actions and values you admire. Think about some things you have always wanted to try.
Think about who you want to be. For you. Then work towards that. Some days you make it, some you dont, but that should be the goal each day.
As you continue to look inward, a couple of things happen. You start to change, you start to become more confident and comfortable with who you are becoming. And then, you become more attractive to people.
I know it seems very negative right now.
But we dont know what the future holds. The only thing we can do it become the best person we can.
We are responsible for our own happiness.
So, continue exploring inside, continue moving forward on working on you.
You can do this.
Well, I've been confused and back and forth on detaching versus actively working on things and it's become clear over the last few days that I should have detached. My problem was, every time I did detach, she pursued me and I took that to mean she was interested. The result was that she never got the space she needed. I see now that I should have forced the space, at least until she was ready to commit to working on things. I basically let her sit on the fence for the last year and got walked on continually.
We had a great time at the wedding Sat....we danced, kissed, acted like H/W & family. Sunday, she decides she's doing her own thing again...disappears for nearly 4 hours and when I went to store I saw her car at the local bar. I went in and found her with OM (something for work she says, and I honestly believe her as she wasn't drinking). I was panic'd, and tried to explain my feelings (without getting mad), but she decided to get mad instead and say she's done (again). She felt like I was stalking her and trying to control her....I can see her point, but she refuses to see mine. I should have detached and let it be.
It is part of the push-pull that occurs when you DB.
You push, she pulls away...
You pull away ?
She pushes....
Recognizing what MIGHT happen in these situations is the balance that you are looking for here. The problem, as it seems, is that you feel her pushing toward you, that you start having expectations about what "might" happen if you over compensate for this or that.
What is something that you might be able to do, to recognize that pattern of behavior ?
What is something that you can do when you do recognize that ?
Letting go of expectations...
You didn't expect to be married after one date with her...did you ?
Think back to a time in your relationship, when you had zero expectations...
How were you then ? What do you see differently now ?
She said she's moving out at the end of the month and wants kids every other week. She would rather swap weeks at the house so the kids aren't uprooted every week, and I agree, that is probably better short term, at least until we get out from under the house. I see an A today to go over what my options are.
Really ?
That means that every other week, that YOU get uprooted from your home.
And you are okay with that ?
I see way more internal conflict with that, down the road.
1) should I agree to every other week in the house or should I make her take the kids for the week she wants them. She's going to stay with her brother and I think that's crappy for the kids, and her brother's family. I have read "don't move out" a lot, but I'm not sure where this one lands.
There is a certain....consequence to one's actions. And by no means am I saying to force any of that. It is not your role to supply the Karma in this situation. What I am saying....is that is moving out of your house once every other week, to do something that is not a decision that you want, a good idea for your emotional well being ????
Yes, it will be a crappy situation for your kids, and yes, it will be a crappy situation for your BIL and family.
Well I may not endorse you being the judge, jury , and executioner for her. I am an advocate of letting the WAS feel the ramifications of their decisions. Letting them own their piece of reality that they have created.
For me, it would be a matter of this.
Is moving out of my home, every other week, really the best thing for me ????
( forget everything else for now, and focus on what is best for you. Because in the end, what is best for you, will also be what is best for your children )
2) should I agree to the divorce or drag my feet? On one side, if I don't agree, she'll think I'm trying to control her and on the other, if I do agree, everything will move that much faster. I'm kinda leaning towards letting her go as I recognize she needs space, but I've read a lot that I should not do anything to help with the process.
Ohhh...there are....ways my friend.
I think a common misnomer is, that the legal system works quickly and efficiently. That could be no further from the truth.
All you have to say to your lawyer, is that you want this to go slooooowwwwwww.....
3) Last night, we talked a long time about her issues. Ultimately, she feels trapped. She feels controlled. She doesn't have the desire to try right now. She isn't saying she doesn't want to be with me, or work things out, she just desperately needs some space to work thru her own issues and see if she feels differently about our past. I get that, and I do agree....but I asked if there wasn't some other option that would allow her to get her space (i.e. in house separation, every other week w/o divorce). I think this probably seems like pursuing, but I really worry about the damage we might be doing to the kids just so she can figure out what she wants. Thoughts?
I think that you should rest on this for a couple days. Then read your own words again, and see if you have a different view of them.
She is telling you that she feels controlled....
Is she ?
I get that, and I do agree....but I asked if there wasn't some other option that would allow her to get her space
YOUR way ????
Time and space means that SHE wants to find her way, not that she wants you to find it for her.
Your fix for her issues will not work.
I was panic'd, and tried to explain my feelings (without getting mad), but she decided to get mad instead and say she's done (again). She felt like I was stalking her and trying to control her....I can see her point, but she refuses to see mine.
This is more of the same thing from you to her.
I would feel the same way as she does. And truth be told, you would feel the same way if the roles were reversed.
IF you really see her point, as you say....
Then you should be validating her points, instead of trying to insert your own agenda onto her.
She doesn't see your point right now, because she doesn't want to see your point right now.
And let me ask you this....
What have you shown her differently about yourself since the bomb ?
Hiya Break. I hope my good friend Mach doesnt mind me stopping by.
Anytime my friend....
: )
Thanks Brookie. I appreciate your comments, as well as everyone else who has chimed in....especially Mach1.
If I may, I see that you are reading a lot of books on just about everything. And I am all for knowledge is power. But, the thing is, you cant let all this consume you.
It will make you craaazzzzy.
There are a few ways to figure out what you want to change about you. One of them is to take those things that your w has said and think about which ones are valid.
True...I have dug into books like crazy, and it has been thought provoking mostly. Usually I get a little out of each one...a book on trust helped me with negative thoughts, for example.
With that said, the only problem that has really caused is that I can see different perspectives, and it can confuse me. With regards to who I am, my wife loves who I have become over the last few years. She said "If you were this person 5 years ago, we wouldn't be here." The problem is that she cannot get over the past...she can't seem to forgive me for my errors, and she can't seem to get past the fact that she has said she's done....in her mind, once she said it, she has to stick to it. The initial bomb was Feb 2011...and she still tells me over and over that she was done then and hasn't changed her mind.
Now, with that said, she has been happy to act like a couple in every way for the most part, even trying to improve some of her negative behaviors. But when we have a bump, we're right back to "I can't get over the past."
I get that, and I do agree....but I asked if there wasn't some other option that would allow her to get her space
YOUR way ????
Time and space means that SHE wants to find her way, not that she wants you to find it for her.
Your fix for her issues will not work.
I was panic'd, and tried to explain my feelings (without getting mad), but she decided to get mad instead and say she's done (again). She felt like I was stalking her and trying to control her....I can see her point, but she refuses to see mine.
This is more of the same thing from you to her.
I would feel the same way as she does. And truth be told, you would feel the same way if the roles were reversed.
IF you really see her point, as you say....
Then you should be validating her points, instead of trying to insert your own agenda onto her.
She doesn't see your point right now, because she doesn't want to see your point right now.
And let me ask you this....
What have you shown her differently about yourself since the bomb ?
That is eye opening. Seriously, thank you. I needed that. You just said what she's been saying to me, but in a way that I get it. I have just seen that I failed her....I failed to trust her, and in return, she failed to trust me. I have to break this circle. I have to choose to trust. Some of that may come from detaching, but some is simply a choice.
Again, after serious discussions, and all, I see baby steps tonight. She calls about S12's swim meet, saying she's otw....he decides he wants to skip due to heat, so I text her that. She calls and says, "do you mind if I go do this work related stuff." I say, no, do what you need to...I've got it under control here. She says great, be home at 7. 645 rolls around and she text me "going to have a beer with joe and his wife, be home 745"...I say "k, thx." Wow, that may be the first time she's actually told me that she wasn't going to be home when she originally said, and actually told me she was going to be drinking. I feel safe...I know what's going on, I feel that she actually trusted me. That may not seem like a big deal, but in our relationship, it is. Maybe it's because she's saying she's done, but she's been saying that every month for a year now so I think that's real progress. She took a step and trusted me....I'm taking a step and trusting her. I will be upbeat and happy when she gets home, with no expectations. Let's see what happens.
BD,
Okay, so you have noticed a pattern within yourself.
How can you transform what you have in your noggin right now, into real life actions ?
You can "think" whatever you wanna think, but until you can transform that into your actions speaking, then you have made very little progress with it.
Let's say that you get it now, and you think it now. Yet tonite , when she comes in the door, you have a reaction to how late she is out, or how she smells, or that she dyed her hair orange.
While your words to her, were that you had it under control ( bad choice BTW) , your actions COULD lead you back down that road to same old , same old BD.
To really be okay with things, you need to really be okay with things. And if you say that you are, you better SHOW her that you are.
Make sense ?
What can you do, to show her that ?
There is an adage here about faking it, till you make it. And while you may not be an expert at one thing or another yet. When you see these patterns within yourself, you really need to be calm, cool, and collected when you present yourself to her.
I'm not big on actions that are manipulative, although there are times when you can really NOT be okay with things, because you have been caught off guard. What I am a proponent of, is that you employ the 48 hour rule, so that you can come from a rational plan of action, rather than a place of reactive behaviors.
B, good for you.
She needs to see consistent ACTIONS from you. The way you get there is to really believe in the changes you want to make.
If you keep telling her you've changed and then react in a way that you have in the past, she is thinking, nope, he really hasnt changed at all.
One of the most important things if for her to feel that you've heard her.
So, if she is telling you that she needs space and you are answering isnt there another way, well, you havent heard her and she gets mad.
Tonight you are getting an opportunity. Take it.
Assuming she gets home in the next hour, I plan to be upbeat...happy...light hearted....positive. This is what I've been asking for...some simply communication and basic respect. That is my plan. Yeah, she said she'd be home by now, but we're talking baby steps and she took one, so I have to react positive to it regardless, or she won't continue to do it.
If she comes home 2-3 hours late and is hammered, I think I'll just detach and ignore it. I can't really thank her for communicating at that point I don't think...or maybe I can just thank her for trying, I dunno. She says she's leaving, so what can I really say if she chooses to come home at 10pm, or not at all?
While your words to her, were that you had it under control ( bad choice BTW) , your actions COULD lead you back down that road to same old , same old BD.
Those weren't my exact words....they were slightly better, but honestly, I was a bit caught off guard that she even asked me if I was ok. I tried to convey there was nothing pressing at home and I had dinner (previously agreed).
She needs to see consistent ACTIONS from you. The way you get there is to really believe in the changes you want to make.
If you keep telling her you've changed and then react in a way that you have in the past, she is thinking, nope, he really hasnt changed at all.
One of the most important things if for her to feel that you've heard her.
So, if she is telling you that she needs space and you are answering isnt there another way, well, you havent heard her and she gets mad.
Tonight you are getting an opportunity. Take it.
Thanks. There are some things I've been consistently good at over the last year, but clearly, there are a couple of really game changers I haven't showed enough movement in. It's difficult when it comes to trust, because honestly, she tears it down at every opportunity. Testing maybe?
With regards to the "needing space," I get it...I just don't want to agree to divorce for her to have it. I've tried not to dictate what she does, I've just asked her think about other options. I guess I could do a 180 here and say ok, let's do it and then drag my feet....but I'm not sure that helps.
Well, she got home at 915 or so...I was already in bed and falling asleep so I wasn't really upbeat. However, nothing negative came out of my mouth. I asked her how the meeting was and told her good job on getting the business. I asked her if she ate the dinner I had left out for her and she thanked me, but said she snacked and would eat it today. She changed, and asked me if I wanted her to sleep in the other room. I said, "if you want" and she said "I'm asking what you want." I was kind of in and out of it and didn't really pursue it, and she just hopped in bed.
I see now that she actually texted me about 855 saying "sorry, otw now." So again, I'd consider that a baby step in the right direction.
We had slated tonight as a catch up night for dialogue and the post session we missed, so I'll ask about that when she gets home from working out, but won't apply pressure. Simply, are those plans still on?
It is part of the push-pull that occurs when you DB.
You push, she pulls away...
You pull away ?
She pushes....
Recognizing what MIGHT happen in these situations is the balance that you are looking for here. The problem, as it seems, is that you feel her pushing toward you, that you start having expectations about what "might" happen if you over compensate for this or that.
What is something that you might be able to do, to recognize that pattern of behavior ?
What is something that you can do when you do recognize that ?
Letting go of expectations...
You didn't expect to be married after one date with her...did you ?
Think back to a time in your relationship, when you had zero expectations...
How were you then ? What do you see differently now ?
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I'm not sure I've completely got it. I see that my expectations are getting in the way, but I also think I may be giving too much to her without a commitment. My end goal is really for her to say "I want to work on this"...she hasn't said it once since the bomb 17 months ago. She will say that she's trying to be better about communicating or something, but never anything about repairing the R.
So let me run a scenario by you and see if you can steer me in the right direction. Let's say this week runs out, no bumps, she starts feeling comfortable, asks me to go for a beer on Fri. My mindset has got to be, live in the moment....enjoy life, be happy, laugh, but expect nothing. This doesn't mean she doesn't want a divorce, this doesn't mean she wants to work on it, it's just a beer and some chatter. If I'm ok with a beer and chatter, I go, and go for that. If I'm not, I should decline.
Now, this is where we fall into old habits. We'll come home, probably ML, hold hands, watch TV and fall back into our normal life. I think I could probably do that with no expectations...if I really think about it. But would this be cake eating on her part? If I give her everything she's wanting, how do I ask her to work on the relationship? If she thinks everything is fine with me (which in this scenario, she probably would), how would she even know to bring up the R and working on it?
She said she's moving out at the end of the month and wants kids every other week. She would rather swap weeks at the house so the kids aren't uprooted every week, and I agree, that is probably better short term, at least until we get out from under the house. I see an A today to go over what my options are.
Really ?
That means that every other week, that YOU get uprooted from your home.
And you are okay with that ?
I see way more internal conflict with that, down the road.
Yeah, I am with you on this one. She's painted scenarios of us divorced, and asked me if I'd be willing to help her if things got tough with her job. My response was something like, "I'd want to make sure the kids were ok, but it's not my responsibility to be your parachute if you choose to leave."
I was really just thinking about the kids, but I think you're right on this one.
3) Last night, we talked a long time about her issues. Ultimately, she feels trapped. She feels controlled. She doesn't have the desire to try right now. She isn't saying she doesn't want to be with me, or work things out, she just desperately needs some space to work thru her own issues and see if she feels differently about our past. I get that, and I do agree....but I asked if there wasn't some other option that would allow her to get her space (i.e. in house separation, every other week w/o divorce). I think this probably seems like pursuing, but I really worry about the damage we might be doing to the kids just so she can figure out what she wants. Thoughts?
I think that you should rest on this for a couple days. Then read your own words again, and see if you have a different view of them.
She is telling you that she feels controlled....
Is she ?
And let me ask you this....
What have you shown her differently about yourself since the bomb ?
I think I've been thinking about this all wrong for the last year. Initially, I kind of let her do her own thing with minimal complaints but after a while, I really started saying "this isn't working for me." At that point, I started pushing for some change. I justified it by saying I wasn't asking for much, and it was a level respect I would ask for even in divorce. From one point of view, I still think that is accurate. But, the problem has been that she sees this as controlling, and I can now see that control is her #1 issue. So for probably 6 months now, she sees me trying to control her. When we talk about R, I think when we talk about her issues, I try to help her fix them...again, she sees "my way" or control. I've done better about listening, and trying not to fix everything, but when you flip our R on it's head and say "what can be viewed as controlling in the last 15 years...or even 25 if we go back to HS"....holy crap.
There certainly was control...when we were young, and even the first 10 years of our marriage. Now, even when I think I'm not asking for much, she sees control....and then she runs.
So the real question here is how to ask for nothing, and yet eventually get something. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think it's got to start with trust and no expectations.
I am going to break this down into a couple posts, so that the thoughts don't run together....
So let me run a scenario by you and see if you can steer me in the right direction. Let's say this week runs out, no bumps, she starts feeling comfortable, asks me to go for a beer on Fri. My mindset has got to be, live in the moment....enjoy life, be happy, laugh, but expect nothing. This doesn't mean she doesn't want a divorce, this doesn't mean she wants to work on it, it's just a beer and some chatter. If I'm ok with a beer and chatter, I go, and go for that. If I'm not, I should decline.
Now, this is where we fall into old habits. We'll come home, probably ML, hold hands, watch TV and fall back into our normal life. I think I could probably do that with no expectations...if I really think about it. But would this be cake eating on her part? If I give her everything she's wanting, how do I ask her to work on the relationship? If she thinks everything is fine with me (which in this scenario, she probably would), how would she even know to bring up the R and working on it?
BD...
This is where it gets twisted a little for me....
You posted a few days ago, that she told her EA that he was the reason that she got up in the morning...
Yet you are still available to her at her every whim.
Is that something that you are comfortable with ?
It could be considered cake eating, although I never had a real clear definition of it. : ) I guess it could mean it in any way that YOU think it means....
So if you think it is ? Then so be it.....
It is definitely having the best of both worlds.
I would make it a goal to not accept every invitation from her. Don't make yourself so available to her.
And don't do that just to be an asshat either...Be a little less available because you are getting out there and doing things for yourself.
Create some mystery around yourself.
You are allowed to live a life too...
And you can fill it with whatever you want to fill it with.
Let's say that you decline 2 out of 3 offers from her.
What do you think that she would think if you stopped showing up at her convenience ??
What would she think if she invited you to go out with her, and you said " I'm sorry, I have plans, and I need for you to be home to watch our children" ????
And then you stick to your guns, and go out and do something for yourself.
It is part of DBing....GAL
It would also be a 180 for you ? To not be on her leash ?
If I remember correctly....
Jealousy
Insecurities
Controlling behavior
Judgmental behavior
Superiority behavior
How is what you are doing, moving away from these ?
And what steps can you take now to move away from any of those ?
From what I see, you being so available plays into those...
Ask yourself this....by being so available, am I moving closer to me, or further away from me ?
At that place, is where your answer lies.
As far as asking her to work on the relationship...
I don't think that you should expect that to happen, even if it does happen, it should be a natural thing.
Did you focus this much on what that meant when you were dating her ???
Or was there a natural, unspoken progression to it ?
It all stems from her actions anyway, not her words. What are they telling you ? What are your actions telling her ?
Words are just words, until the action matches them. Be careful with them, because they will lead your actions....
How sharp are your words ???
And do they match what you really mean ???
The availability thing is something I've struggled with, and I know I need to be better. Even when I'm out doing something by myself, or with my brothers, she'll ask if she can come along, or drop by for a beer. I generally (I might as well say always) try to make it work....even if I'm getting ready to get up and go, I'll stick around and wait for her. She definitely takes me for granted....watching the kids, house chores, etc, and this is just one more example of it. Agreed....I will focus on this.
The problem I have run into on GALing is that it becomes 20 questions with her, and complaining. For example, if I do something for me, she goes on and on about where were you, who were you with, are you looking for someone, etc. I struggle to create mystery when she's like this. And should I be busy 2 of 3 times, I can see her complaining "you never make time for me." I'm not sure where that goes from there.
The availability thing is something I've struggled with, and I know I need to be better. Even when I'm out doing something by myself, or with my brothers, she'll ask if she can come along, or drop by for a beer. I generally (I might as well say always) try to make it work....even if I'm getting ready to get up and go, I'll stick around and wait for her. She definitely takes me for granted....watching the kids, house chores, etc, and this is just one more example of it. Agreed....I will focus on this.
The problem I have run into on GALing is that it becomes 20 questions with her, and complaining. For example, if I do something for me, she goes on and on about where were you, who were you with, are you looking for someone, etc. I struggle to create mystery when she's like this. And should I be busy 2 of 3 times, I can see her complaining "you never make time for me." I'm not sure where that goes from there.
And she is in an admitted EA with another man....????
Like I asked earlier....
Are you comfortable with this ???
And she is in an admitted EA with another man....????
Like I asked earlier....
Are you comfortable with this ???
She had never admitted to having an emotional affair with the guy...I'm not even sure she'd agree with me on what an emotional affair was (unless I started having one, and then maybe we'd come to some agreement).
To be fair to her, I have had problems with insecurity and jealously for most of our marriage. It's only been the last 18 months that I've started to get my head on straight. She's been talking to this guy for probably 4 years now, and I've been complaining about it for most of that period. In my defense, she did have some sexting thing going on with another guy about 5-6 years ago, so when I saw the tons and tons of texts, and the hours and hours on the phone, I was hyper-sensative to it. His wife has been worse than me and has called my wife a whore for a couple of years now.
With that said, I think their relationship has escalated over the last couple of years. She's actually spent less time with him, but I think they know entirely too much about each other. She is always talking to him about his kids and family. One point of contention with us is when she gets on the phone with him at 8-9pm at night or when we're trying to eat dinner, or do something together. As long as it's work related, I really don't mind much, as I can understand some of this stuff bleeds into the evening, but as soon as she starts asking about did he get invited to this wedding, or how is his son doing, I think, hey, do you really need to invest our family time in that? She's gotten better about it....not that she's stopped, she just tries not to do it at home. I have caught them together drinking and hanging out multiple times. Still, to this day, she insists they are only friends. He appreciates her opinion, and makes her feel valued, but she said there's absolutely nothing more than that.
She did admit that she told him something like "you're the reason I can get up in the morning" or something similar, but that's been a fairly recent event. I view that as an escalation of their relationship, and no, I'm absolutely not ok with it.
With all that said, she and I did discuss this the other day (we have talked about it a lot honestly). I told her that I wasn't pushing for her to not work with the guy or anything as I really believe, if we fix our relationship, and I can meet her needs like I should have been all along, then her deal with him would take care of itself. Anyway, I couldn't really mandate that she not work with him, or socialize with him anyway, as she'd just see that as control. I have asked her to read about emotional affairs so she could better judge if her relationship was ok, but again, that's "MY WAY" and doesn't help.
When I have tried to put it in the context of "you wouldn't accept that behavior from me" she says things like "you're just not as social as I am" or "you're not a people person." It's easier to explain it away than actually look at it.
Oh, by the way Mach1, I wanted to say thanks again for taking the time to help me. You have really helped me think and work thru a couple of things. Your advice has been very well received. I truly appreciate it.
Thoughts of the day:
1) do not be controlling
2) do not talk about R
3) do not worry about W's plans to move out or D
4) be happy, fun, maybe even a little flirty!
We had a showing last night that lasted over an hour. We are hopeful that we might get an offer today. W said to me last night "if you have time, can you look at houses for us...these people may want to move fast." She was talking as if we were buying a new place together and I thought, what's going on here. But I didn't say anything, I'm not going to mind read and it doesn't really affect what I look at or decide to purchase anyway. I just went with it and tried to be upbeat.
I am going to try to have some fun today and not worry about what is going on.....and tomorrow, I hope I can do it again, and so on, and so on
If you magically knew,
for sure, that she was testing, how would your reaction be different? How would you percieve things? It helps/helped me to see a lot of things as a test until my changes were internalized and solid.
Yup... many of them...some of the ones my W came up with and was certain on doing, and that I would of course go along with, were, just...just "wow, really?" It is funny now, but not then...just part of the script.
when I think I'm not asking for much, she sees control....and then she runs.
We train our spouses how to react to us over the years, so she is going to see what she expects, from your past interactions...consistency and time is required for HER habit to change, assuming YOUR S.O.P. is changed...
As far as the EA goes, in my opinion, you are in competition, be the better choice, the better man...for now, let it go. She sees you as controlling, and touching on this (right now) only confirms that in her mind. Let it go for now...truly let it go, you can't control it anyway. Worry about that later. Really dig deep within and don't give the OM and the EA any head space. Oh, and she WILL KNOW if you are faking letting it go...so ya gotta be brutally honest with yourself here. Does it really matter, RIGHT NOW? I think your time is better spent on YOU than on OM....
Just my opinions...
T^2
As far as the EA goes, in my opinion, you are in competition, be the better choice, the better man...for now, let it go. She sees you as controlling, and touching on this (right now) only confirms that in her mind. Let it go for now...truly let it go, you can't control it anyway. Worry about that later. Really dig deep within and don't give the OM and the EA any head space. Oh, and she WILL KNOW if you are faking letting it go...so ya gotta be brutally honest with yourself here. Does it really matter, RIGHT NOW? I think your time is better spent on YOU than on OM....
Yeah, I definitely feel like if she hasn't done anything at this point, she's one push from doing it. I think I've done a pretty good job of accepting that the past is the past and regardless what dirt may be there, I'm still good to move forward with our R. My hangup has been, regardless what may have happened prior, I don't want it to continue. Of course, that festers and then old, bad habits start to show. You are right, I have to truly let it go....I can't control it. This is going to take some work, I am going to have to tell myself everyday, focus on what you can control....focus on me! Let go of the rest.
With all that said, tonight is supposed to be golf night for me, but it's just too friggin hot. W texted me a little bit ago and asked if I was going or no. I said no, but I might go hang out with my B. She just called and reminded me she had a church meeting from 6-7 and then let me know that some girlfriends were going to the wine bar for one of their bdays. She said she was going to stop by for an hour, "not an all night event, just make an appearance." I said ok, tell friend I said happy bday. Then she says, "thanks for finishing dinner. I really appreciate your help."
Wow...finally, 18 months after the first bomb, and a few days after the last bomb, I'm getting some respect and courtesy? WTH is going on here? This is what we've been fighting about for months now. I don't get it, but I'm not going to try to right now either. It's what I've been asking for...I'm going to be thankful for it. I've told her 10 times "I don't expect you to jump in, but if you stick your toe in now and again, you might see that the water's changed." Maybe she's dipping her toe a few times before she moves out. I dunno. And that's twice this week.
Time to finish dinner....probably will skip time with the B and watch a movie with my little people
W was true to her work and probably only stayed 1hr max with her gfs. I wasn't really concerned about it, and didn't even think about when she'd be home or not be home. I just focused on me, and movie night....but the fact that she actually followed thru is progress on her part.
She got home in the middle of the movie and showered, and told me a funny story about a girl who they saw at the wine bar. We then settled in to finish the movie and went to sleep after.
I goofed this morning...she woke me up with a touch and told me about her day. It was only about 630am so I said "where are you going now?" Clearly she was dressed for work, so she had something she needed to do. Even if she was meeting someone for breakfast, what does it matter. I could have asked "do you have an early meeting?" or something similar....I don't think that has the controlling aspect to it like "where are you going" does. Anyway, small error....and I did just wake up, so I'll give myself a break.
I have been thinking a little about boundaries. I think in the last year, I tried to set 2:
1) Inform me of evening plans/changes
2) Stop using D talk as a weapon in arguments
Really, neither of these have been held up. She's continually rolled over both. All of a sudden, she seems to be paying attention to #1 now, but if she's really planning on moving out in 2 weeks, perhaps she's just trying to keep the peace until then. I don't know, but I'm going to spend some more time thinking about what boundaries do I want now and how can I hold firm on them.
I goofed this morning...she woke me up with a touch and told me about her day. It was only about 630am so I said "where are you going now?" Clearly she was dressed for work, so she had something she needed to do. Even if she was meeting someone for breakfast, what does it matter. I could have asked "do you have an early meeting?" or something similar....I don't think that has the controlling aspect to it like "where are you going" does. Anyway, small error....and I did just wake up, so I'll give myself a break.
It appears that she is willing to have some open dialogue with you.
So why don't you just tell her...???
I have noticed that when we have conversation, when I am in a partially awake state of mind, I tend to be an asshat. And I would like to ask, that anything that is important to us, or that I absolutely have to remember, be addressed when I am fully awake. Leaving me a note works well too
I have been thinking a little about boundaries. I think in the last year, I tried to set 2:
1) Inform me of evening plans/changes
2) Stop using D talk as a weapon in arguments
Really, neither of these have been held up. She's continually rolled over both. All of a sudden, she seems to be paying attention to #1 now, but if she's really planning on moving out in 2 weeks, perhaps she's just trying to keep the peace until then. I don't know, but I'm going to spend some more time thinking about what boundaries do I want now and how can I hold firm on them.
Boundaries.....
Sticky subject there.....
She hasn't respected your boundaries, and you get run over by them....
When I read them, they look very controlling to me. BECAUSE you are trying to control the actions of another person....
Boundaries are for you. They should be in place for your protection, not to place restrictions on anyone else. They should be in place to protect your personal emotional space. To limit the amount of pain that another person can inflict onto you.
Before you can put them into place, you really have to know who YOU are ...
What you can allow inside...
What you are willing to tolerate...
What you can, and cannot live with...
Do you know that right now ????
So let's 'breakdown' your boundaries.....
#1- Inform me of evening plans/changes
I may be wrong, yet it appears that you are doing the majority of the Parenting during the evening hours...
Yes ?
If that is the case, then #1 is pretty easy, and actually it should be unspoken...
YOU should be making the plans for the evening. No questions, no BS.
And YOU can communicate to her, what YOUR plans are....
Wife, I am planning dinner for the kids at 5:37pm. After dinner, we are planning on going to Billy Bobs Barber Emporium to learn how to shave a Sasquatch. We should be home around 9. Please let me know if you are planning on joining us. Wife, I am not planning on being home this evening, I have made plans and should be home around 10. You aren't being an ass or anything, you are simply taking control of the things that you are already taking care of. The only difference is, that you are showing confidence in YOUR actions.
Be respectful, and tactful when you interact.
So really, there is no boundary to put in place, or enforce...
I was once told that...
Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell, and they look forward to the trip....Sometimes.....you have to be the change that you want to see...
#2 ?----Stop using D talk as a weapon in arguments
That one is pretty easy.....
I will no longer allow myself to live in a marriage, where I am threatened with a Divorce when my values differ from my partners. If you feel the need to continue this, then I feel we should proceed with your wishes.You aren't giving an ultimatum to her in any way. You are simply stating what you can, and cannot live with. It is about YOU....the way boundaries should be....
You are merely giving HER the choice to do things different...
Does that make sense ???
Mach, great help on the boundaries. I guess my point was, I tried to set some boundaries and it didn't work at all, so I need to look at what boundaries I really want and how to set them.
The points on #1 are exactly what I needed. I've got to stop sitting here waiting...I've got to lead, I've got to take care of me. If she chooses to not come along, then that's her decision and her loss.
On #2, I'm not sure that is a boundary I should set. It is something that is very hurtful to me, and it just adds to the stress of this roller coaster ride, but I don't think I should have to say that. I'm going to think on this one a bit.
With regards to the morning discussion, another great suggestion. I should have noted, she didn't get upset or anything. She was very polite and told me the work she had to get done before a meeting. I just don't want to talk like that as I know it's a destructive type behavior, regardless who I'm talking to.
3) Last night, we talked a long time about her issues. Ultimately, she feels trapped. She feels controlled. She doesn't have the desire to try right now. She isn't saying she doesn't want to be with me, or work things out, she just desperately needs some space to work thru her own issues and see if she feels differently about our past. I get that, and I do agree....but I asked if there wasn't some other option that would allow her to get her space (i.e. in house separation, every other week w/o divorce). I think this probably seems like pursuing, but I really worry about the damage we might be doing to the kids just so she can figure out what she wants. Thoughts?
I think that you should rest on this for a couple days. Then read your own words again, and see if you have a different view of them.
She is telling you that she feels controlled....
Is she ?
I have been thinking about this for a few days and again, my comments are made with the "fixer" mentality, and by trying to fix it, I'm trying to control it. I actually think I've noticed this when I'm talking, I just justify it by saying it's about the kids, or it has to be said, or something else. This is an extremely bad habit now that I look at it, and given my other behaviors regarding insecurity and not trusting, this is probably seen as more of the same in my W's eyes. No wonder she feels controlled....when she says "hey, I'm feeling controlled," I respond by saying "I have a fix for that, do this instead." Doh!
On #2, I'm not sure that is a boundary I should set. It is something that is very hurtful to me, and it just adds to the stress of this roller coaster ride, but I don't think I should have to say that. I'm going to think on this one a bit.
If you are uncomfortable laying a boundary, then you are not ready to enforce it....
Simple as that...
Boundaries HAVE to be enforced, or they just become meaningless words ---yet again, from the LBS
Only you , know your threshold of pain...
If/when the time comes, you will know....
I have been thinking about this for a few days and again, my comments are made with the "fixer" mentality, and by trying to fix it, I'm trying to control it. I actually think I've noticed this when I'm talking, I just justify it by saying it's about the kids, or it has to be said, or something else. This is an extremely bad habit now that I look at it, and given my other behaviors regarding insecurity and not trusting, this is probably seen as more of the same in my W's eyes. No wonder she feels controlled....when she says "hey, I'm feeling controlled," I respond by saying "I have a fix for that, do this instead." Doh!
How do you change that dynamic ????
How do you change that dynamic ????
I think being aware of it is step 1. Step 2 probably is asking questions, rather than providing suggestions. In my example above, instead of saying "here, do this" I should ask "what makes you feel that way?" This really ties into listening, so again, more practice on that.
Boundaries are for you. They should be in place for your protection, not to place restrictions on anyone else. They should be in place to protect your personal emotional space. To limit the amount of pain that another person can inflict onto you.
Before you can put them into place, you really have to know who YOU are ...
What you can allow inside...
What you are willing to tolerate...
What you can, and cannot live with...
Do you know that right now ????
So let's 'breakdown' your boundaries.....
#1- Inform me of evening plans/changes
I may be wrong, yet it appears that you are doing the majority of the Parenting during the evening hours...
Yes ?
If that is the case, then #1 is pretty easy, and actually it should be unspoken...
YOU should be making the plans for the evening. No questions, no BS.
And YOU can communicate to her, what YOUR plans are....
Wife, I am planning dinner for the kids at 5:37pm. After dinner, we are planning on going to Billy Bobs Barber Emporium to learn how to shave a Sasquatch. We should be home around 9. Please let me know if you are planning on joining us.
Wife, I am not planning on being home this evening, I have made plans and should be home around 10.
You aren't being an ass or anything, you are simply taking control of the things that you are already taking care of. The only difference is, that you are showing confidence in YOUR actions.
Be respectful, and tactful when you interact.
So really, there is no boundary to put in place, or enforce...
I was once told that...
Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell, and they look forward to the trip....
Sometimes.....you have to be the change that you want to see...
Mach1, that was very helpful, thank you!!!
I think being aware of it is step 1. Step 2 probably is asking questions, rather than providing suggestions. In my example above, instead of saying "here, do this" I should ask "what makes you feel that way?" This really ties into listening, so again, more practice on that.
So...
Your step 1 , is my step 2...
My step 1, would be asking a hard question of myself....
Step 1 - WHY am I like that ?
Step 2 - Being aware
Step 3 - Asking questions
Step 4 - Stopping controlling behaviors
Are you with me ????
I hope so, cause I already know my answers, and that would look kinda creepy, if I sit here with a "Breakdown" costume on, trying to think like you....
Wouldn't do you much good either....
Wow, that's a serious question. At first, I just wanted to cop out and say that's just the way I am, but wow, that one stings. The more I think about it, the more upset I am....and I can't really explain why that makes me feel so sad. I should be happy I'm figuring this stuff out, but maybe this one is a little close to home.
I took a look at a quiz on "am I controlling" and unfortunately, I passed. The thing that really stuck out to me was the resulting paragraph:
You are a controlling person. You feel that control is necessary because people hurt your feelings a lot, and your memory of this goes back into your painful childhood. To keep from being hurt more, you try to control your feelings, which basically means you are very selective about revealing yourself to others. Your overriding need to be in charge or to have things your way drives people away from you, despite the fact that you work very hard to take care of their needs. The only emotion you show easily is anger or irritability. You constantly explain your motives and give reasons for why you are the way you are, but somehow this doesn’t help you get you what you want, which is other people’s love and affection.
This describes, at least for most of my life, pretty well. So just like my insecurity, my unwillingness to open up completely to my wife, and my judgmental attitude, control is another piece of the puzzle.
Sting is good !!!
Sting , is what keeps you stepping forward...
Sting , is what drives you do be different...
I think you hit a good spot to dig a little. Really be honest with yourself, and see what comes to the surface...
This is the hard stuff BD, yet it is the part of it that will complete you as a person down the road..
Becoming that person, is what will ultimately give you the best shot at restoring your relationship....
Counter-intuitive huh ?
So, would I be safe to assume that working on your control issues will help you in the other areas that you have identified as trouble areas ???
I highly recommend reading Co-dependant No More
A lot of things that you see in there will really open your eyes, and help you see things from a new perspective.
And maybe you should re think your list of personal goals. I think it helps to re-evaluate them as you grow...
Sting is good !!!
Sting , is what keeps you stepping forward...
Sting , is what drives you do be different...
I think you hit a good spot to dig a little. Really be honest with yourself, and see what comes to the surface...
This is the hard stuff BD, yet it is the part of it that will complete you as a person down the road..
Becoming that person, is what will ultimately give you the best shot at restoring your relationship....
Counter-intuitive huh ?
So, would I be safe to assume that working on your control issues will help you in the other areas that you have identified as trouble areas ???
I highly recommend reading Co-dependant No More
A lot of things that you see in there will really open your eyes, and help you see things from a new perspective.
And maybe you should re think your list of personal goals. I think it helps to re-evaluate them as you grow...
Thanks. You have really helped me think thru some stuff. I read "The Journey Called You" a while back...I think that was one of my first books I dug into when I started to question how I felt about things, before the bomb was even dropped. One of the things that stuck with me from that was that once you start down the path of personal improvement, you start to question everything, and the journey turns into a lifelong project.
I definitely feel like that and I've even told my wife, this is the beginning of change, it's not a short lived thing...it's going to continue. I've just begun to change into the person I want to be...I don't plan on stopping. But sometimes answering those hard questions is just that...hard. But I thank you for asking them...I think I've grown much faster with your guidance than I would have on my own.
Will definitely pick up the book you suggest....more growth!
Morning BD....
Yes, I definitely feel that way, that once we open ourself to accepting change, that we never stop....
The day I stop being open to change, is the day they are chunking clay on me...
You have come a long way, and you will continue to see things in a new light.
One thing I noticed is, that you have told your wife ?
While I realize that you do have some communication with her, I would recommend keeping that silent.
When that change becomes a part of your life, that you are living just for you ? Then you won't have to 'tell' her anything...
They will become part of your actions, which speak way louder than words..
It is all part of "acting as if". Just living your life, knowing that whatever gets thrown your way, YOU can handle. Because you have taken the time to learn about yourself, and accept criticism in a positive way. You learn what "your" truth is, and you learn how to let the un-truth slide off of you, like water off of a Duck's back...
You have come a long way, yet there is still so much to do...
How about your new list of goals for yourself ?
How about you, plan to find time for just you....One afternoon each weekend, and Two nights a week...
Is that something that you can find acceptable ?
Even if you take a walk for an hour one of those nights....
Or you go to the local Coffee Shop every Saturday afternoon..
Thoughts ?????
Morning Mach1.
I don't make a point of talking to W about my changes, but she mentions it quite often, sometimes casually, sometimes during an argument. We've been casually talking this week, no R talk, no D talk, no physical touch, just normal everyday stuff. We were talking about someone else this morning and she said "I don't think you realize how angry you were for so long." I definitely do, but I didn't really want to tell her everything I've learned about myself so I just said, "I do understand it" and left it at that. I'm with you here...if she wants to ask me questions about my personal growth, I'm happy to discuss, but it's not something I need to bring up. If she was DBing, she wouldn't trust anything I'd say anyway....it's all in the actions.
I'll work on a new set of goals and circle back to you.
I think 1-2 nights/week and an afternoon is a good goal. I've been trying to do movie night with my B and golf night every week already, so that generally gives me the 2 days....weekends I need to work on.
I took the day off today...going to dialogue with the W in a few mins, then taking the kiddos to see Batman. I told W we are doing pictionary and pizza tonight. She has a bday party to attend but she said she may try to cut out early to join us. I didn't really invite her or not invite her, but I'm glad she showed interest.
Tomorrow I've got to take my daughter home....summer break is about at an end. It's about a 9-10hr round trip for me, so I generally have a good chunk of thinking. This time though, I've decided I'm not going to come straight home. I'm going to take a detour and stay the night at my mom's, see some of my family that lives there. I'll take my new co-dependency book in case I have down time. Every time I make this trip I think about stopping at my mom's, but I never do. This time, I will, for me. It'll probably give my W some additional space too, which is what she's been asking for, so win win.
Just back from visiting with my Mom. Got together with my sister and her 3 boys for dinner last night...they hadn't all been together in over a year, so that was kind of cool. We had a good time and I really enjoyed the evening.
I read about 1/5 of the co-dependent book....really hitting the mark. Sometimes I actually think it's talking about my wife, sometimes me.
Got home a bit ago, walked in the house and unloaded. Saw the camera sitting at the front door and thought I'd download the wedding pics from last weekend. Once I open them up, I find pictures of a motorcylcle that is clearly at OM's house. I take a look at the time stamp and it's Monday at 415. Recall from Monday:
Again, after serious discussions, and all, I see baby steps tonight. She calls about S12's swim meet, saying she's otw....he decides he wants to skip due to heat, so I text her that. She calls and says, "do you mind if I go do this work related stuff." I say, no, do what you need to...I've got it under control here. She says great, be home at 7. 645 rolls around and she text me "going to have a beer with joe and his wife, be home 745"...I say "k, thx." Wow, that may be the first time she's actually told me that she wasn't going to be home when she originally said, and actually told me she was going to be drinking. I feel safe...I know what's going on, I feel that she actually trusted me. That may not seem like a big deal, but in our relationship, it is. Maybe it's because she's saying she's done, but she's been saying that every month for a year now so I think that's real progress. She took a step and trusted me....I'm taking a step and trusting her. I will be upbeat and happy when she gets home, with no expectations. Let's see what happens.
That call was at 445, so she's coming from OM's house. Wow. Now, maybe the guy wants to sell the motorcycle and she's helping by taking some pics...hell, I really don't have any idea. It's actually got me a bit worked up, and I'm struggling to find some peace. My heart is pounding and I feel like I'm on the verge of a panic attack.
She's at "work" now, so my guess is she's probably with him...the kids have no clue. Now, that's a negative thought....gotta stop with those. Old habit...bad, old habit. What I'm not going to do is mention it, or act mad, or anything. Maybe 45 mins of cardio and some reading will get me to a peaceful place. If not, maybe I'll go grab a movie. I cannot be like this when she does get home.
Well, cardio wore me out...still irritated as I feel I'm constantly being lied to, but what can you do. What I can't do is control W...she will do what she pleases, and hide it effectively if she believes it will make me upset or if I disagree with it, that much she has shown me again and again. Digging in deeper and trying to "find the truth" just appears controlling to her, so I'll dismiss it and move forward.
I'm going to go grab some tea or a beer and read for a while. I don't want to just sit here stewing.
Some passages I read this afternoon that really hit home with me:
It hits you in the stomach. The feeling fills you up--that gut-twisting, handwringing anxiety that is so familiar to codependents. It is what causes us to do much of what we do that hurts ourselves; it is the substance worry and obsession feed upon. It is fear at it's worst.
Yep, that pretty much explains the "panic" feeling I get sometimes when my W does whatever she wants without regard for our M. Now I realize that it's not just my W's behavior, but my reaction to it.
Next chapter was on detaching....talk about timing. One passage that rang out to me:
Detaching does not mean we don't care. It means we learn to love, care and be involved without going crazy. We stop creating all this chaos in our minds and environments. When we are not anxiously and compulsively thrashing about, we become able to make good decisions about how to love people, and how to solve our problems. We become free to care and to love in ways that help others and don't hurt ourselves.
I am trying to allow some peace to flow over me. Letting go of the control, and not running to controlling behaviors is a challenge, but I'm going to keep my mind occupied. Off to read some more, work on my dialogue questions and maybe watch a movie!
Not perfect. But not bad. I didn't say anything and tried to appear upbeat. Unfortunately I'm an open book and my wife reads me pretty well. She asked me what was wrong and was I mad or upset about something. I said I was just reading and asked how her day was. When she changed clothes and went to the kitchen, I did not follow. When the kids became loud and she started yelling, I did not intervene. I let her come back to the br to get me for dinner. We had a couple of beers together and watched a show, then went to sleep.
She got up at 5am to workout. I did ask her where she was going,so a slight slip. At 7am, I went OUT for coffee. Yay, me time. My brother called and said he wanted to join me so another win.
This book really hits home in so many ways...ive highlighted so much!
Yesterday, when W got home, and I asked her how her day was, she started giving me the play by play....I did this, then that, etc etc. I said, you don't have to give me the play by play, I was just asking a general question.
This morning, I see a contract on our counter than has OM's signature on it dated yesterday. Somehow this wasn't listed in the play by play...imagine that. So like I said previously, she's going to do whatever she wants and either omit or hide interaction with OM. I've got to surrender to it and let her do her thing. I actually read something this morning that was right on..."People ultimately do what they want to do." She went on to say it didn't matter if it was right or wrong, who it hurt, or what we thought. That really hits home, and makes you realize why detaching is so important.
Once we're both off the phone this morning, she gives me the "hey, you weren't home when I got here, where'd you go?" I said, "I just went out for coffee." And then I get the "With who?" I started to think of that analogy someone wrote up about being outside the castle, having a picnic, and the spouse tip toeing out to see what was going on. No sudden movements....a little mystery, a little fun....no sudden movements.
Note, I'm not sure "OM" is the right term for the guy in this case, but given the lack of clarity of the situation, and the sneaking around related to it, I'm going to stick to it for the time being.
Decided to have movie night with my brother last night. I started getting phone calls from home and text from the kids around 9pm. No one knew where Mom was and D11 needed picked up from a friends. I called W, no answer. I then talked to S17, who ended up taking care of everything. All that was fine, but then I slipped up and sent W a nasty text. She responded as you would expect. After a few texts, I said I didn't mean to be an ass, but was scared and didn't like the kids to be home alone late. She responded she was struggling too.
As I look at this in hindsight, I view it as a small test, one which I failed. I assumed that W was being irresponsible and disrepectful. And even if she had been, and I knew it for certain, I let that control my behavior. I didn't act how I wanted to act, I let all the frustrations I've been holding back all week bubble up.
I feel a change in myself, a different way of thinking and understanding things. I actually laid in bed thinking over my actions, thinking thru my feelings and how I would have liked to act. Historically, I would sit there and think about how W did things wrong, but this time, I find myself stopping that train of thought before it even starts moving. She's going to do what she's going to do....I can't control it....I can only control me, and must choose how I want to behave. Man, change is hard.
NO! You're mixing up irresponsible parenting with control. Your kids were home alone and they tried to get a hold of your W who was God knows where. So they tried calling you. If they were in any mortal danger, your W could be thrown in jail.
Make a log of these incidents where they are left alone. The next time something like that happens again, when the kids call, go over and pick them all up and take them home with you. Tell your W that while she has the right to do whatever she cares to do to herself, when it comes to your children, they become the priority.
When she start objecting it, tell her that you have logged everything down and are turning them into the L for the record.
This isn't a test! It's lousy parenting from an irresponsible parent.
NO! You're mixing up irresponsible parenting with control. Your kids were home alone and they tried to get a hold of your W who was God knows where. So they tried calling you. If they were in any mortal danger, your W could be thrown in jail.
I'm not saying her behavior is ok, just that my own behavior was not what I want it to be. I assumed the worst with limited information and acted out. I could have text her something like "Hey, S17 is saying xyz and no one is picking up at the house. Do you know what's up?" Instead, I basically went on the attack. I assumed she chose to ignore my call (that is a pattern I'm used to, but it's not an excuse), instead of thinking she may not have seen it or been in a bad cell area.
I discussed with W this morning (and apologized) and she explained what was going on, both with the kids and herself. She swears that she didn't miss a call from me, and only had 1 call from the house (not that it matters). I do think she had it under control and it appears that it was S17 who created unncessary drama because he wanted to go to a friend's sooner than W had told him. I will discuss with S17 today when he gets home just so me and him are on the same page.
On the negative side, W is still not in a place where she can accept an apology and move on though....she tried multiple times to turn it into a fight, but I refused (progress!). I wasn't really apologizing for her benefit anyway, it was for me. Even if she was being disrespectful and irresponsible, I would like to problem solve without the anger and frustration seeping thru.
Decided to have movie night with my brother last night. I started getting phone calls from home and text from the kids around 9pm. No one knew where Mom was and D11 needed picked up from a friends. I called W, no answer. I then talked to S17, who ended up taking care of everything. All that was fine, but then I slipped up and sent W a nasty text. She responded as you would expect. After a few texts, I said I didn't mean to be an ass, but was scared and didn't like the kids to be home alone late. She responded she was struggling too.
Hey BD....
Just catching up. I'm not on here much anymore, and don't read much here. So I hope that you aren't in any panic mode...LOL
You know, the WAS is going to make some pretty crappy choices with their parenting. That much is expected out of most of them.
I liked the way you came to grips with this, and that you EVENTUALLY put some perspective on it.
With that...let me ask you a couple things....
What was the plan for the evening ?
Did you effectively communicate that you were going out ?
Was she fully aware that SHE was responsible for pickup and drop-off for the evening ?
Was she under the impression that your Son was handling the pickup ?
All in all...
Was there CLEAR communication from you on what you expected from the evening ????
It is like what we talked about a few posts ago..
(Wife), I am going out for the evening. (Daughter) needs picked up at 9 from ____ , and Son has plans that hinge on her being picked up. I'm not advocating what she did in any way. And I think that it is irresponsible for her to not be available for the children when they call....
What I am saying is...
That one of the things that YOU want to change within yourself, is that judgemental side of yourself. The controlling side of yourself...
What I would like for you to do, is to think about a way in which you can get your point across to her, without placing any blame, or judgement on to her for what YOU would have done differently....
And I would like for you to think about how YOU can handle a situation like this differently the next time....
?????
Thanks Mach. No worries....this is a process and at some point the training wheels are going to come off!
Yes, she had a clear understanding of the fact she was in charge and like I said, in hindsight, I do think she had it under control. 90% of the negativity I felt I think I put on myself....I didn't trust her, I let myself have negative thoughts, and I let myself get worked up before figuring everything out. I made assumptions that were wrong. It didn't take me long to see this so that is progress, but I want to see it before I act next time.
Been an interesting couple of days. W has been down in the dumps lately...seems mostly from stress of work, but OM has been mad at her and she's been upset about that. Their business relationship looks to be ending, so that's good from my perspective, but I can see her rebuilding the same kind of thing with new people. It's weird. She seems to feed off other people so much, whether it's negative or positive. Even as I sit hear typing I can hear her laughing and giggling, half work related half BS with someone else on the phone (who I know isn't OM). Maybe this is just who she is. So much of the Codependent No More book applies to her...probably more than me even, but that's got to be her deal, not mine. My deal is not following her around worrying about who she is talking to...that's what I can control.
I've been concentrating on no pressure, no control, no expectations. I think she feels the difference. She asked me to dinner the other night, and we ended up spending the whole night together. It was fun, but also a little uncomfortable. My schedule just filled up though, so I probably won't be able to make another outing this week
At least until Saturday night, when we have a retrov post session on conflict resolution.
For the rest of the week, I'd like to finish the codependent book and get our dialogue questions finished. We did 4 this week on forgiving and trusting....a couple of them are pretty deep and could shed some light on things for both of us. I'd also like to have game night with the kids again Friday and have dinner as a family on Sunday. Man, my week really did just fill up!!
Just heard that our retrov schedule got flipped a few weeks....instead of conflict resolution, we're doing intimacy and sex. Neither of us see that as a big issue for us...but I think we'll learn some things regardless. That means conflict resolution moves two weeks out, and we have a conflict (another wedding). Dang it...so probably the best two post sessions for us (forgiveness/trust and conflict resolution) will have to be made up in Oct/Nov timeframe.
One thing about the forgiveness session was mentioned via email that really stuck out to me. It said that we have a hard time forgiving people sometimes when their apology or request for forgiveness is not done in our preferred manner. W has really struggled forgiving me, and I think this may be part of the deal. I have said "sorry" for a lot of stuff (so much that eventually I said "I'm not apologizing for the same stuff over and over"), but I don't know that I've asked for forgiveness. I may initiate this at some point, should the opportunity arise.
W just blew out of here going 100mph....gave me a little insight on the 90 mins she was otp. She actually talked to 3 separate people, a GF, OM, and someone from her office regarding the deal she's working. I assumed it was a single person, and again, I hate that I make any assumptions! She said she'd be home early, but might have to go back out for a meeting on this deal she's working. I said "as a reminder, we have retrov on Sat and I'd like to..." She interjected "finish our homework...ok, this is Thur, got it."
No time for me in the AM bothers me, but now I understand that my LL is quality time and seeing her spend time with others, with none left for me, stings. Understanding the how and why I feel really helps hold negativity at bay.
One other thing I want to focus on is being lighthearted and fun. While my W was otp this morning and getting dressed, she turned to me and flashed me. I was just reflecting on it and wow was that a missed opportunity to have some fun. A little late, but I did text her in a flirty kind of way about it. I know this is something she wants and I've been a stick in the mud way too much. I deserve this type of fun as much as she does, so it will be another focus area for me.
So recap:
- No controlling behaviors
- No expectations
- No pressure (i.e. no R talk)
- Have FUN!
When you think about it, this really is like when you start dating someone and it reminds me of something MrBond said to me when I first posted...being that person again when we first got together. Yeah, there's responsibilities and there are things to worry about, but my list above should be the "big rocks" in the jar.
One other thing I want to focus on is being lighthearted and fun. While my W was otp this morning and getting dressed, she turned to me and flashed me. I was just reflecting on it and wow was that a missed opportunity to have some fun.
Ya think ???
Maybe turn the tides on her a little with this....
What is the ONE thing, that she would not expect you to do in that situation ???
Find a way to respond, without responding...if that makes sense to you....
Find a way to turn that negative into a positive for you...
And is sure is better than those long showers you take : )
So recap:
- No controlling behaviors
- No expectations
- No pressure (i.e. no R talk)
- Have FUN!
Good list....
Sounds a bit like something that I read on a Divorce Busting website....
When you think about it, this really is like when you start dating someone and it reminds me of something MrBond said to me when I first posted...being that person again when we first got together. Yeah, there's responsibilities and there are things to worry about, but my list above should be the "big rocks" in the jar.
It is about changing the things that you don't like about yourself...
Making better choices in life...
Dropping the co-dependant behaviors...
And just live your life...
Were you this anal when you met her ?
You didn't expect marriage on the first date to Chuck-E-Cheese did you ???
Live that way now....
Maybe turn the tides on her a little with this....
What is the ONE thing, that she would not expect you to do in that situation ???
Find a way to respond, without responding...if that makes sense to you....
Find a way to turn that negative into a positive for you...
I am pretty happy with my delayed reaction....I text her something like "thx for the flash...next time I'll return the favor!" I think it was fun and lighthearted....I just want to start looking for fun things so when they happen, I'm right there with it.
Sounds a bit like something that I read on a Divorce Busting website....
Yeah, I've heard that website's pretty good
You didn't expect marriage on the first date to Chuck-E-Cheese did you ???
Live that way now....
LOL...excellent point! And yes, definitely trying...succeeding a little more every day!
W is working a huge deal at work, one that may change her career. She's been really good at keeping me in the loop on her schedule for the last 2 weeks, which is really weird all things considered. Last night she didn't get home til 1130, but she did call me at 630 and ask me if I was ok with the dinner meeting (like I'm really in a position to say no).
When she got home she was excited and was telling me all about the deal. She reads me like a book and could tell I was a little uncomfortable with the late night and was very kind and reassuring (again, surprising), though I told her I was fine. She cuddled up with me and went to bed about 30 mins later. Wasn't much, but it was the first time in 2 weeks she's touched me in any way, so that's a baby step in the right direction.
Before we went to sleep, I said, "W, I know you're busy with your deal, and I'm not trying to overwhelm you or pressure you, but I wanted to let you know we're having game night Fri night in case you want to participate." She said she would be home by 3 or so today, finish her dialogue questions, and participate in game night.
All in all, I think this is how we would both want it to work in a perfect world. I don't give her crap for working late, we make time for family things, and make sure our M makes the priority list as well. I'm not getting my LL (quality time), or really, any LL at this point, but at least I don't feel disrepected constantly and I think the relief of pressure on her is helping as well.
I feel really good all in all. I really like where I'm going, and generally like how I feel, but I know I'm struggling with patience a little. She hasn't mentioned R, D, or moving out in the last two weeks. Given the situation though, I think Aug 4th would really be the move out date....not July 30 as she indicated, so that's probably the telling point.
We've got a busy couple of days in front of us...bought a new vehicle which we pick up tomorrow, then retrov, and church on Sun, along with Sun dinner, so we'll see how the weekend goes and I'll report back then.
Wow, what a difference a few hours makes. I finished up work early, decided to hit the grocery store, but thought I'd grab a late lunch and a beer at our local pub first.
Low and behold, my wife is there, with two guys that were her lunch meeting from 11:30am....it was 3:30pm. The one guy was already gone and the other was walking out the door. W introduced me to him as her H, but I could tell they had all been drinking for a while. The tab on the table was $100, and was all drinks. She told me that this was actually the 2nd tab...the first one was $200. W went on to say she had maybe 5-6 beers, but the guys were doing shots, and even went to the car to smoke some pot at one point. Personally, I do not do shots at a business meeting...but maybe that's just me.
I told my wife I was very uncomfortable and she shook it off....why? she says. I tried not to press, but it made me feel uncomfortable that she was drinking for 3-4 hours with some guys I didn't know. She responds, "just trying to close the deal." At this point she gets up and says she has to drop some stuff off, and I ask her if she wants to stick around for a couple of waters. She says no and bails.
Then, I see a guy we know there and he asks me, "are you guys separated?" And I'm like "no, why?" He was pretty broken up about it, but eventually told me some of what he overheard. He said, husband to husband, it's way out of bounds. The wait staff knows me and basically agreed...it was awkward for everyone. There was some hand to thigh and discussion of sex to keep it short and sweet. And this is my hangout...this is where I like to go for beers...of all the places, why did she pick this place? I'm pretty sure it was intentional....I even asked her if it was before she left the restaurant (she said no of course).
I went ahead and went to the grocery store shortly thereafter and came home. W was there and I asked her about it...I was clearly upset. She had enough to drink that she just exploded with anger. At one point, I grabbed her phone (yes, that was wrong). She's attached to that thing at the hip. I saw that she told OM "I love you I love you I love you" and that was enough for me. I gave her the phone back and she left.
I decided it was time to enlighten all parties so I called OM's W. She and I have basically been in the same place for years. We've both seen inappropriate behaviors and have blamed them on ourselves. She let me know that she had left OM a few weeks ago, so everything looks a bit convenient.
W came back a few hours later and said I had sealed my fate by calling OM's W. She was so angry she could barely talk. She packed up a bunch of her clothes and said she'd get the kids next week.
Serious failing on my part in the approach....but her texting OM "I love you" is out of bounds. She's been disrespecting me like this for years and I think I'm finally to the point where I can see it calmly, not blame my own insecurities, and say "no more."
We'll see what tomorrow brings....but I do think we're probably done, at least for the short term. Maybe a few months will change things, but I'm not willing to continue like this. I have made my share of mistakes, but I own them, and am becoming who I want to be. I am not blaming my parents, or my W, or whoever for my actions. This is where she's at, and I'm no longer to take the blame for her bad behavior.
Oh, I could use some input, from anyone....I'm upset, but actually fairly calm all things considered. I'm not sure contacting OM's W was the right thing...but I have thought about it for a long long time and it seemed time. I know grabbing her phone and looking at it was wrong, but seeing the texts actually allowed me to let go.
One thing that really bothers me is that OM's W told me my W has been telling OM for years that I'm physically abusive to her. We've had a couple of incidents over 15 years when booze was involved, but she's been as guilty as me. I can't believe she's telling people this. And tonight, she told me she had bruises all over her hips and a black eye, so asked me if I wanted to get the cops involved....really? Our kids are right here and she's going here? And I'm like "how the hell did you get a black eye and bruises?!" She says "how do you think BD?" Huh? Seriously? That's some anger there. I don't know what's going on.
I'm getting ready to play Uno with my little people....gonna try to salvage the rest of the evening.
I don't get it. Does the OM's W know about the A?
I don't get it. Does the OM's W know about the A?
There is no concrete proof of a PA, and I honestly don't think there is one, but both myself and OM's W know the relationship is inappropriate. I was thinking last night about the text I saw, and I could see a scenario where that is platonic and assuming they are really just friends, I can definitely see how this would make her irate. The problem I have with the scenario with the OM is that they both see the affects it's having on their marriages, yet they continue, and try to fend the both of us off.
The other thing that really bothers me is the guys she was drinking with last night. She's only known these guys a few weeks and so it looks now, that the inappropriate behavior is not limited to OM. That bothers me more than the OM issue honestly, because now I'm really not certain who this person is. She is definitely not the woman I fell in love with and created a family with.
I've done really good working on myself...I'm making great strides. I was even doing pretty good backing off my wife and not applying pressure or control. Now, I think I have to go LRT, and honestly, her behavior makes it pretty easy. I really don't want to be with the person she's become.
Funny thought I had....W and I dated in high school and saw each other for years afterwards, just a few times per year, the occasional card or letter, etc. It wasn't until I really gave up on her, until I stopped chasing her around and accepted she chose a different life that she turned around and chased me. Hopefully, 15 years later, we can see that happen again.
S13's bday tomorrow...crappy timing for him. W asked if I wanted to take kids bowling and then get his bday dinner. I told her she could take them, but it wasn't going to be a family deal. She could have either lunch or dinner, but not both. She's made this bed...let's see how comfy it is. I'm not trying to be an ass, but this is what she's asking for.
On the bright side, I did ask her about her expectations for church and she said "I think we should sit together. We are still a family." Well, that's something I guess.
W pressed me on why I didn't want her there for dinner and I explained that we're doing half days for this stuff from here forward. Her response, "I just feel immediately pushed out of this day."
Yeah, who would have thought half the day would suck as compared to all of the day. Duh. Believe me, there's a bunch of other crap you haven't thought about either!
Now she's telling me she wants to see the kids at least every other day. Are you frickin kidding me? My oldest said today was the first time he's seen her in 3 days, so what's the deal now? Who knows. I just told the kids to go with it...
OK...I'm done venting.
Gonna be a rough couple of weeks as we try to come to some agreement on visits and such. We had agreed to go to church as a family this morning and she just popped in unannounced to get something. It took us all of about 3 mins to get into an argument about her telling OM "I love you." I got the definite impression it had turned into a PA. I am so hurt and angry right now, I don't want to see her or talk to her. She was miffed when I wouldn't sit next to her at church, and further irritated when I was short with her after. I think she has it in her head that we can just be friends and co-parent. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Co-parent yes...but tolerance is about the best I think I can do outside of that.
I want my marriage to work, but no longer can it be on her terms. I realize now that she's been cake eating for at least 6 months, maybe longer. She has had me to take care of everything at home while she's done what she wanted. She knew how much I wanted this to work, so she took advantage of it instead of embracing it. I feel kinda dumb.
I'm really struggling today. I think I will pack the rest of her things up so that that visit can be as short as possible. I'm considering filing for D myself right now...I know that goes against everything I've read, and everything I've wanted, but I'm conflicted right now because of the hurt. I want it to be over. I want to be loved and accepted, and I don't want to continue to hear about all the bad things I've done and how that made her do all the bad things she's done.
I think we had such an opportunity here to teach our kids something great. Marriage vows are important. You can work thru your problems. You can choose to forgive, you can choose to love. Family is first. I've tried my best to represent those things to my kids, but my W has decided to show them the other side of the coin.
Roller coaster ride continues. Good conversation this evening, some explanations on both sides, better understanding of why the move out occurred. Honestly, had she not been drinking, I don't think she would have left now that I've talked to her about it. But since she's out, she figures she might as well go with it and see if she feels any different. I think that's fine as she's doing more damage being here than not.
She wanted to agree to no sex with anyone else for the short term....she doesn't want to see anyone, just wants to work on herself and try to figure things out. She doesn't want to have sex with me because of the emotional bond and doesn't want me to have sex with anyone else for the same reason. I told her I wasn't interested in seeing anyone else right now, but she said she didn't know how long it would take her to work thru her issues.
She also said she can't stay away from the kids. She wants to come over every morning and make them breakfast before school. She got upset and started crying so I just said we'll talk about it. I really don't like that idea. It sounds like she wants all the comfort of the family, with all the freedom of being single.
Also got a death threat from OM for talking to his wife...that was awesome. Had to have the police come out and write it up.
Now, what to work on. I feel like the issues I've been working are still valid, but there's a whole new dimension now that I'm not sure how to handle. How nice should I be? How giving should I be? Where do I draw boundaries with the kids? How do I create interest yet protect myself? Need to work on these items over the next few days.
She wanted to agree to no sex with anyone else for the short term....she doesn't want to see anyone, just wants to work on herself and try to figure things out. She doesn't want to have sex with me because of the emotional bond and doesn't want me to have sex with anyone else for the same reason. I told her I wasn't interested in seeing anyone else right now, but she said she didn't know how long it would take her to work thru her issues.
I wonder if this is something like where my W is partially at right now...we haven't had this discussion, but the actions seem to sorta match...it is an improvement from last fall/winter though, when the internet had one wild cougar running wild... lol.
This also may mean that she has second thoughts, but is afraid of making the wrong choice (either one, stay or go). Don't promise her anything, you have said it perfectly (not interested in anyone else)...leave it there, she needs some uncertainty that she may lose you...imo...
She also said she can't stay away from the kids. She wants to come over every morning and make them breakfast before school. She got upset and started crying so I just said we'll talk about it. I really don't like that idea. It sounds like she wants all the comfort of the family, with all the freedom of being single.
BD...this is almost verbatim of one of the schemes my W tried selling me last fall and winter...funny how the words and schemes are so similar across so many very different people and sitches...can you say "script"?
I told W that that was not acceptable to me (total cake-eating), and confusing for the kids, and of course her SAHM status would have to change, as I cannot afford a second housing expense...so it never happened (yet, always the "yet" possibility...*sigh*).
Hang in there and keep your mind open...my sitch turned positive in a rather fast way out of the blue (I think her last OM scared her, stalky predator type, but I don't know, just a gut feeling). Maybe this last drama with OM/OMW/you and her was a reality 2X4 for her...ya never know...
T^2
Thanks T^2. I'll read up on your sitch, as I can always use the help.
W has been texting me the "why are you trying to hurt OM's family" crap here lately. From my view, I didn't do anything other than bring his W up to speed....the behavior has been all his (and my W). That said, I did agree not to contact her again (suggested by the police I spoke to today, so really wasn't much of a give on my part). But I left her with one thought....if OM is really just a friend, and OM's family is so important, and OM's W thinks you're having an affair, continual contact is only going to continue their downward spiral. Read up on it.
At this point, she basically told me that working relationship is nearly gone and she has begun cutting contact. I got that sense that she didn't tell me this before because she thought I'd gloat or something. She explained the "I love you" comment, and even admitted it was wrong. Some acceptance of responsibility on her part...huge step forward. She also explained the "meeting" Friday, told her side, and again, admitted she let it go too far and should have excused herself.
We talked a lot about the last two weeks (after Mach1 gave me a 2x4 on controlling behavior) and she admitted, it wasn't hard, and felt very good for both of us. She is still extremely scared to try, expects behavior from years ago to continue, and has a lot of resentment, but I can see some glimmer of hope.
"I'm not trying to be an ass, but this is what she's asking for."
You are being an @$$. This is YOUR SON"s birthday. Not yours. He deserves to have both his parents act civil enough for him. Are you going to be that way when he gets married? If it was any regular time it would be fine, but this is HIS day.
It was YOUR choice to give him good memories of the day where both his parents were there. Don't let your hurt feelings affect his happiness. Be the bigger person.
"I'm not trying to be an ass, but this is what she's asking for."
You are being an @$$. This is YOUR SON"s birthday. Not yours. He deserves to have both his parents act civil enough for him. Are you going to be that way when he gets married? If it was any regular time it would be fine, but this is HIS day.
It was YOUR choice to give him good memories of the day where both his parents were there. Don't let your hurt feelings affect his happiness. Be the bigger person.
Two sides of this coin MrB. Is she trying to make things easier for my son or for herself? If she was trying to make it easy on him, I think she would have stayed....or at least stayed til after his bday. If I let her have it exactly as she wants, am I making it easy on my son or letting her cake eat? I think you could go either way here, but I chose to make her live with her decision.
And you say say my son deserves "x." The way you say it, "x" is whatever my wife says. I believe she's been cake eating in this relationship for 6-18 months...I'm not willing to let her continue it outside of the house. Should I let her stay in the house and sleep with OM just because it's better for the kids? I think not.
With that said, I did invite her in to open presents and blow out candles, and we did talk for a long time after....so I wasn't really an @ss...it just wasn't exactly how she wanted it.
I get it that you're trying to establish boundaries. But using your son as a pawn (and it's obvious that's what you're doing) isn't the way to do it.
She's not cake eating in that respect. She wanted to see her/your son. There will be times when it will be her time with your son and you will want to be with him also. You've got to learn to compromise.
"And you say say my son deserves "x." The way you say it, "x" is whatever my wife says."
Uh no that's not what I said. 'x' does not mean "whatever your wife says", you're interpreting it based off of your personal hurt feelings. This is in regards to this specific event.
Let's face it, it's obvious from your posts that you're still p.o.'d at your W. I get it. But when it comes to your son, be the bigger and better man.
Let's face it, it's obvious from your posts that you're still p.o.'d at your W. I get it. But when it comes to your son, be the bigger and better man.
Point taken, and yes, hurt, angry and frustrated would be accurate. I let my emotions get the better of me yesterday in a couple of ways, but I don't agree I used my S as a pawn. Could I have made a better choice, yeah, sure.
I will think on it some though, because as much as I want to argue the point, I think I owe it to myself to do some soul searching on it and be completely honest with myself. Boundaries with the kids are going to be a huge issue with us and this whole deal is an emotional roller coaster, for both of us, so better to think thru it all now before more decisions are made.
She's not cake eating in that respect. She wanted to see her/your son. There will be times when it will be her time with your son and you will want to be with him also. You've got to learn to compromise.
Maybe I didn't post the complete deal here, but what I ended up agreeing to was we went to church as a family...she got S from after church up til 530pm. I softened at 530pm and asked her if she wanted to stay for presents and cake. She'd already done this once with him, but she stayed. So while she wanted us all to be together, she didn't get that, but I do think I was more than fair.
With that said, you are right...I was angry and hurt and I wanted to have her feel the results of her decision as quickly as possible, which meant we split the day rather than shared it. I honestly didn't think I could be around her that day, but I could have bowed out of the activities a little more graciously. Distinct boundaries could have waited one more day.
I feel like I have been carrying the load for the family for a long time now, and sometimes I just want to put it down. Some days I am just so worn out, it's difficult to do all the "right" things. No excuses, I did not behave how I want to be. I'm really getting good at being who I want when things are calm....the high stress moments are still a work in progress.
I'm going to try to get myself in a mental state of "we're just friends taking care of kids together" and see how I feel about that. I want to be upbeat, compromising, understanding, but not a doormat.
Point taken, and yes, hurt, angry and frustrated would be accurate. I let my emotions get the better of me yesterday in a couple of ways, but I don't agree I used my S as a pawn. Could I have made a better choice, yeah, sure.
Fill me in a little.....
Was the party pre-planned before all of the other stuff happened ?
Maybe I am assuming, and maybe I missed it, but according to .007's reply to you, I think it was....
IF...it was....
Then yes, you used your son as a pawn...
You knew the thing that would hurt your wife the most, and you used it against her...
So fill me in on the Cliff Notes of where you are now....
How did your actions over the past few days relate to your goals ?
How could you have done better ??
Did you show the world what you wanted to show it ???
BD...I'm not too much on the daily living advice as much as I am a philisophical person...
What you do daily...YOU have to live with, so I will leave you to make those choices.
The way you go about making your choices ???
That's where you will find me....
Make sense ???
P.S. - Thanks .007...
Yeah, Mach, I'm good with that. The roller coaster I ride day to day is going to be just that....I just need to be reminded occasionally to steer it in the direction I want to go.
As for the bday, all I really knew was what S wanted for bday dinner. W moved out Fri, then Sat text me if I wanted to go bowling with them all...this was a new plan, or at least new news to me. She also assumed we'd be doing the dinner together without really discussing it. Tempers were still high, and I honestly didn't want to be around her, and as I said, I wanted her to feel the impact of what she had decided so I let her know that we would be splitting the day, not sharing it as a family.
So, to sum up the last 3 days since she left, I'd say we've had some really good discussions, with depth on both sides. Also has been some fun, flirtiness here and there, which has been good. She took some baby steps in admitting some things she's done wrong and said how good the last two weeks had been. She also indicated if she hadn't been drinking, she wouldn't have left. On the bad side, I let her push my buttons Sunday morning before church and I let my anger control my actions on a couple of things. I think I recovered ok, but my goal would be to hit it out on the first pitch, not the 2nd or 3rd at bat.
Biggest problem right now is dealing with the hurt with something besides anger, and having the patience to give her the time she needs without pressure. I'm probably pretty good on the 2nd one, though I have to keep talking myself out of texting her. I want to have some boundaries so she doesn't cake eat, but I also want the to keep the road home smooth.
So, let's use an example to see where my head should be. She text me this morning and said, "If you are going to be away from the house today, please let me know. I would love to come by and see the kids while you're out." I said "I'm not planning on going anywhere, but you can see the kids whenever you want, just let me know. If you want me to be gone, I will find something to do." She found out from the kids that I went out for a few hours with my B yesterday and was upset she didn't get an opportunity to use that time with them. I don't think she has a problem being around me, but she may think I have a problem being around her and is trying to avoid making me upset. I know that's a bit of mind reading, but trying to shed a little light on it.
I am making a new recipe for dinner and I thought I could invite her to stay and visit the kids for a while then. I feel confident I can do so without pressure and without R talk. And I don't really want to get in the habit of leaving the house so she can visit. As I said above, I'm trying to get my head in a "we're friends" kinda state and roll with that. Thoughts?
Oh, one other thing...I've kinda been using this thread to journal. If you think we should keep it to specific work areas, then I can try to journal in my old thread. Whatever works best is fine with me.
The anger...
I think that most people would tell you that it isn't good to have anger...
I would tell you otherwise. I think that anger is a normal emotion, and to refuse yourself of that, then it would be the same as refusing to allow yourself to be sad, or to be happy, or to love.
It comes from the way that we choose to deal with that anger that can change things. Your anger, is just. Other people may not view it as healthy, and may tell you to lose it. In reality, your anger right now, should be used as a shield. Against all of the crazy schidt that you will have to deal with. It should NEVER be used as a sword against her, or anyone else.
What are the things you do, to release that anger ???
I completely understand that you want to make her "feel" her decisions. I get that....
The only problem with that, is that YOU are not the one who gets to make that decision. Life will hand her all of the Lemons that she will need.
And if YOU ever feel as though you need to do something to help that along ? Yea, that plays right into the judgement thing that you are working through. The Superiority thing that you are working on. Nobody died and passed you the Moral Torch to carry....
I think that you are denying yourself the one thing that each of you needs the most right now....
TIME
And I think that no matter how much you push things, you aren't going to get to a place of healing until you can put the brakes on a little.
Inviting her over would be considered pursuing her right now. She made her choice to leave, yet you inviting her over, is enabling her , as you put it, "cake eating".
I think that you should recommend having a schedule written out for each of you. Post that schedule on a calender, somewhere that you can ALL see it, so that there are zero questions on what day is what.
Bottom line is, that yes, she made this choice for herself. Moving forward for your life is what you should be focusing on.
Emotions are REALLY HIGH on both ends of this right now, and you are making emotional decisions, based on your hurt, instead of rational decisions based on reality.
What I would recommend, is ...
-write out a schedule
-take steps toward defining your role as a single Father
-re-commit to your goals for yourself
-re-commit to the work that you have been doing for yourself
-Her time with the kids, should be happening at her new place. Not involving you leaving your home.
That is the reality for her.
And in no way, are you doing this to "hurt" her. You are simply living what has become your reality....
I have often referred to detachment as...
Doing the right things, regardless the reaction, not to induce a reaction....
In your decisions that involve the children, the FIRST thing you should be asking now is...
"Is this decision, what is best for the kids"
If the answer is no, then you should be stepping back and re-thinking things..
If the answer is yes, then you have your answer...
Make sense ???
Oh, one other thing...I've kinda been using this thread to journal. If you think we should keep it to specific work areas, then I can try to journal in my old thread. Whatever works best is fine with me.
I would like to see you have an active thread for yourself.
My ego isn't that big, as to think I am the only one with VALUABLE input on how you should proceed....
And I don't want anyone to feel as though their opinion doesn't matter...
Plus it will help you form connections with your fellow posters....
We can use this thread for whatever you feel like, and if you want this for your focus, then that is what we will do...
Your call...
Good advice as always Mach.
For the anger, if it's intolerable, or if I can't get it out of my head, I try to work out. Otherwise, I try to understand where it's coming from, tell myself it's ok, and focus on what I want next. She left Friday night in a drunken tirade, and I still managed to put it aside, have dinner and play uno with the kids. Yeah, I was upset, but I didn't let the anger control me. I did what I wanted to do. I was really proud of myself, and honestly, had a blast with the kiddos. Sunday though, the anger worked a little more stealthy...I didn't realize I was letting it control me until after the fact. I didn't even realize I was mad until after the fact. I need to work on that more.
I have been thinking about the schedule since Sat and had kinda decided over the last few days that I'd just let it go for this week. She'll see the schedule as my need for control and I want to just roll with the flow for a week and see where she ends up. Weds I play golf (though I've been missing it due to heat) and she told me yesterday she'd take care of dinner that night, as well as take the kids for school supplies. A little later she said something that indicated she meant she would come over and stay here while I was out. It made me uncomfortable, but I didn't say anything. Again, I thought we'd ride this week out, let emotions settle a bit, and then maybe have a sit down on schedules/boundaries over the weekend.
You know, the weirdest thing for me in all of this is that we have had the most honest, deep, patient, understanding, and productive discussions in the last year...more and more all the time. It's like we've figured out how to talk about stuff and share our feelings. But that resentment she has for the past, there's just no getting it past it for her. After church, she told me how she thought of me after the message...how me she's been hurting me for the last year and I just continued to love her. She sees it....she just refuses to do anything about it.
I agree that TIME is what we need. I am going to spend some time today thinking about a new hobby, or digging back into an old one.
For the anger, if it's intolerable, or if I can't get it out of my head, I try to work out. Otherwise, I try to understand where it's coming from, tell myself it's ok, and focus on what I want next. She left Friday night in a drunken tirade, and I still managed to put it aside, have dinner and play uno with the kids. Yeah, I was upset, but I didn't let the anger control me. I did what I wanted to do. I was really proud of myself, and honestly, had a blast with the kiddos. Sunday though, the anger worked a little more stealthy...I didn't realize I was letting it control me until after the fact. I didn't even realize I was mad until after the fact. I need to work on that more.
It's about more than that...
Look closely, and ask yourself ....why do I let another human, have control over MY emotions ???
Spoiler alert !!!!
It plays into judgment, and superiority...and ultimately ? Control
I have been thinking about the schedule since Sat and had kinda decided over the last few days that I'd just let it go for this week. She'll see the schedule as my need for control and I want to just roll with the flow for a week and see where she ends up. Weds I play golf (though I've been missing it due to heat) and she told me yesterday she'd take care of dinner that night, as well as take the kids for school supplies. A little later she said something that indicated she meant she would come over and stay here while I was out. It made me uncomfortable, but I didn't say anything. Again, I thought we'd ride this week out, let emotions settle a bit, and then maybe have a sit down on schedules/boundaries over the weekend.
The schedule is something that you work on TOGETHER...not just you...
Where you BOTH sit down, and actively look at what needs done, and who is available to do things. It is when you try to work together, towards a common goal....the betterment of your children.
It doesn't have to permanent, nor does anything have to be a legally binding contract....
It is about communication for Parenting....
You know, the weirdest thing for me in all of this is that we have had the most honest, deep, patient, understanding, and productive discussions in the last year...more and more all the time. It's like we've figured out how to talk about stuff and share our feelings. But that resentment she has for the past, there's just no getting it past it for her. After church, she told me how she thought of me after the message...how me she's been hurting me for the last year and I just continued to love her. She sees it....she just refuses to do anything about it.
I agree that TIME is what we need. I am going to spend some time today thinking about a new hobby, or digging back into an old one.
Tell me the ways in which I want to smack you right now : )
Seriously though....
How do you know what she is capable of ???
Thinking that you do, will serve you very little in the future...
Look closely, and ask yourself ....why do I let another human, have control over MY emotions ???
That is exactly how I have been thinking lately. I say this to myself all the time and even apply it to actions. My other mantra is "I can only control me."
The schedule is something that you work on TOGETHER...not just you...
Agreed. I was thinking I'd give her a week to "settle in" and then we could sit down and discuss it together over the weekend...or even a week after that. She's pretty emotional right now and I know she needs the breather (hell, me too!). When the talk does happen, I plan to let her lead it.
How do you know what she is capable of ???
Poor choice of words. What I really should have said is "I can't MAKE HER get past it, and she's certainly not going to do it MY WAY."
She did tell me she was trying to work thru things her own way, but trying to hide from me while doing so. I don't know how she'll work thru it, but I think seeing me everyday just made it harder for her. So space and time is probably just what the doctor ordered. I just need to respect the doctor's orders so that the wounds can heal.
Interesting day so far...W shows up to take S17 to orientation. Friendly banter, then she looks at me and says "I'm have a hard time" and then hugs me. I'm like, yeah, me too. The hug was awesome. I told her she looked great.
She wanted to go look at a car after orientation so we went and kept it friendly. When we get back to the house she ask if I'm going to be gone Wed night so she can see kids. We talk a little and she says, if you're not uncomfortable, you are welcome to join us for dinner. OK, great.
Then she asks me if she's going to be able to stay at the house next week. Wow, I guess she forgot she told me she would pick them up for next week. I think my BIL must have nixed the entire family deal. I said "I'm not planning on leaving the house" and she said "so I have to see them when you say until I get a divorce decree?" Sheesh, wth just happened. I said, "No, you can take them...your visits don't have to be here." There's some silence and then I say "I think there are clearly a number of things we need to discuss going forward" and she agrees to set up some time with me to discuss later this week.
I was trying to keep it upbeat and friendly, but she took my head for a spin there at the end. I don't think the discussion is going to go well, and she's going to be p!ssed when I tell her I'm not going to agree to swap weeks. Any advice on how to do this gently??
Then she asks me if she's going to be able to stay at the house next week. Wow, I guess she forgot she told me she would pick them up for next week. I think my BIL must have nixed the entire family deal. I said "I'm not planning on leaving the house" and she said "so I have to see them when you say until I get a divorce decree?" Sheesh, wth just happened. I said, "No, you can take them...your visits don't have to be here." There's some silence and then I say "I think there are clearly a number of things we need to discuss going forward" and she agrees to set up some time with me to discuss later this week.
Sigh...
Once again, words buddy....
No, you can take them...your visits don't have to be here.Anytime that you use the words "I" , or "You" in a sentence, there is a chance of it getting taken the wrong way. There is a potential for guilt being passed on, and there is a chance that it gets mis-interpreted as controlling, and/or blaming. Use those words GENTLY...
I would like for your mind to slowly drift toward something like....
I have been thinking about the negative impact that spending time here, will have on the children. While I would like the best for them, the mixed message of having time with you here, would most likely not be in their best interest. We need to move forward with our lives , and if that encapsulates you not being here, then I think it would be best to start that now.
In no way, an I attempting to keep the children from you. I will support them being with you in every way. What I am saying is, that I feel, that we have to keep this simple for them, and do our very best to not confuse them. They are going to have a rough enough time adjusting. And if they see us in disarray, then they will be in disarray.
I am open and willing to listen to all of your suggestions on this.
I was trying to keep it upbeat and friendly, but she took my head for a spin there at the end. I don't think the discussion is going to go well, and she's going to be p!ssed when I tell her I'm not going to agree to swap weeks. Any advice on how to do this gently??
No...She didn't do anything to you....
YOU allowed yourself to be spun...
Big difference there....
Why do you think that she spun you ?
Why did you allow yourself to be spun ??
And once again....
She is gonna be pissed ? She told you that ?
OR are you getting inside of her mind again ?
The biggest thing, is...
How are YOU going to handle it ????
I say "I'm not going to let other people's actions control me" but you're right, I continue to let hers do just that. This is friggin hard work!
I txt W yesterday about some scheduled massages we have Friday and asked her if she wanted to go or have me cancel hers (I am defintely going). We had some flirting back and forth and she said she wanted to go. Today, she took the kids shopping for most of the day and ran some errands for us, then made dinner for the family. She had planned to stay thru dinner, but had a meeting come up so said she'd just get it ready and then go. I was really happy to see her and smiled the whole time...didn't take much for me to be upbeat in this case. I actually feel like a teenager again when I'm around her.
Anyway, W asks me if I want to do lunch before massages or drinks afterwards. I said sure, sounds great. She also says that she will be staying in the guest room Thur because she can't stay at her friend's or her B's. Then tells me how she's been sleeping on couches, air mattresses, etc and how much her back hurts. She just looked exhausted, and I really felt for her.
As she got in the car to leave, I asked her if she was ok and she said "no, not really." I asked, "do you want a hug?" And she said yes and she held on to me a long time. She went on to say she didn't like this, didn't like being away from the kids, or her home, and didn't like not getting along. I told her I didn't like her not being home either. I then told her we were playing uno as a family later and she was welcome to come back after her meeting. She looked thankful for the invitation, and said she'd let me know, but she looked so tired, I seriously doubt I'll see her. I know that was a little pursuing, but she was already planning on spending the evening with the kids...I just wanted her to know it was ok to take her meeting and then still do that. And I really didn't want the conversation to slip into something serious.
I felt really good....no pressure from me (or very little), no control, no anger or frustration. I even sidestepped the potential serious discussions here. I tried to keep it upbeat and tell her I was happy to have a "date" on Friday and enjoyed our conversation yesterday. Have to be careful with this stuff, as I know her LL is words of affirmation, but I also don't want it to seem like pressure.
Trying not to mind read, but my biggest concern is that she's going to want to move back in without any commitment to working on the relationship or even working on her own issues. The last year has really been hard for me....I'm not sure I can go back to that. I definitely can't take more of the EA or the destructive behavior. I guess I'll just keep an open mind, and try to focus on the moment and having fun. I actually might push any serious discussions to the weekend if in fact she decides to take the discussion in that direction.
Oh, I wanted to mention, the thought of "we're just friends" really worked for me. I think that's one of the reasons I was so upbeat...I didn't feel any pressure, and didn't feel the need to put any on her. That is a mind set I will continue.
I say "I'm not going to let other people's actions control me" but you're right, I continue to let hers do just that. This is friggin hard work!
If it was easy....
Charlie Sheen would be our leader...
W called and let me know she had a dinner meeting tonight, so wasn't going to spend the night after all. She said she'd like to stay tomorrow instead if that was ok. I was upbeat, but she asked me what was wrong a couple of times....I just laughed and said nothing at all, and she was welcome to stay tomorrow night.
After we got off the phone, I was checking our bank account, which we have a credit card tied to, and I could see she had lunch out by OM's house today. He lives in BFE, so it's blantantly obvious. She has her own cards that I don't see so she wanted me to either see it, or pay for it, or both. This was probably why she thought I was mad when she called. Whatever...I'm not even going to concern myself with it. Time for some cardio...gotta get this bod in shape!
W did end up coming over for dinner...was a nice visit, but only lasted about an hour. She touched me a few times, even stabbing me in the @ss with a fork once. It was fun and playful and the kids had fun. Before she left, she hugged me and thanked me for being her friend. I wasn't sure how to take that, so I just rolled with it. No sense trying to mind read. She had said earlier that we might talk tonight, but she must have changed her mind because she never said anything of substance. Kids pretty much were all over here, so that may have done it too.
We're hooking up for massages tomorrow and then possibly drinks...but I'm not expecting anything. I feel so attracted to her it's weird....seems like we hit a reset button and went back 15 years. I want to chunk all our problems out the window and just grab her up and kiss her, and I honestly think she'd go with it. I'm just not sure that's the right move right now. I'm just going to let her lead and see what happens.
I definitely get the sense that she's feeling me out, trying to see where my mind is. She says stuff like "I don't want to wear out my welcome" which I find odd. She seemed to float between comfortable at home mommy and dinner guest tonight, and was unsure where the boundaries were.
I'm just going to let her lead and see what happens.
Good.
I definitely get the sense that she's feeling me out, trying to see where my mind is.
Be careful with the above. You could very well be right.
Do what you can to not allow yourself to get into a R talk.
For example, her saying that she doesn't want to wear out her welcome? Sounds like an opportunity to tell her that she'd never wear out her welcome. Instead of going there, just show her. Keep doing what you are doing so she always does feel welcome.
W just stopped by to pick up her laptop...wearing the same clothes from last night. Very weird....I didn't mention it. Who knows.
Interesting weekend to say the least. Friday we had massages...followed it with early dinner, a movie at home, and then she slept in the same bed. Sat we did a big breakfast for the kids and had some mimosas. There was much flirting, mostly on my part, and yes, it was pursuing, but I kept it light and fun. I had said something about kissing me and she said "did you think this would fixed in a week?" and then "I have enough things to figure out without you getting in my head." I just rolled with it, as my intention was more fun than pressure. But this slid us into some R talk.
She was fairly irritated that I changed my mind on leaving the house every other week. She indicated she was planning to spend most of this coming week at the house, as it was her week with the kids and she didn't see any other way. I said I was ok with it, but I thought we should talk expectations as I didn't think it was fair for her to simply come and go as she pleased. There were a handful of other things she complained about as well, but all pretty minor and expected given the situation.
We pulled some weeds in yard and then I went in for a shower....she came in, locked the door, and then things got physical. Still no kissing, but it burnt up the rest of our afternoon, all with her leading. I took it at face value, enjoyed the moment, and didn't tie any expectations to it.
Sunday we went to church as a family, did some housework and then just relaxed the rest of the day. We made dinner together, watched some tv together, but there was no more physical contact outside of holding hands in bed. Again, she slept in the same bed.
Throughout the weekend, she was surprisingly available....not too much time on the phone, didn't really go anywhere. My mindset has been to be fun, no pressure, no R talk, enjoy the moments....and I think I did pretty good, definitely enjoyed my weekend. I realized a while ago that I tend to hover...follow her around, go where she goes. I focused on this and intentionally went other places, and let her seek me out instead.
With all that said, I did make a list of non-negotiables for me if she decides she wants to work on it. I pulled together a list of 5 things I will not accept in this marriage. Most I think she would be ok with, but the difficult one for her will likely be no contact with OM. For me, the "I love you" took that beyond acceptable and I don't think I can live with the relationship continuing in any format. However, I didn't share them. I know she will view them as controlling so for now, these are simply for me. I am not going to talk R unless she brings it up.
I am trying to focus on behaving like I would normally, whether she is here or not. I am continuing to read and work on my issues, I'll continue to work out (changing from insanity to p90x next week!), and I'll go do things for myself regardless of her plans. My mindset is really good...sometimes I want it to be different/better, but I just remind myself of all the changes I've made and how much better I feel. I accept it's part of the process and I trust that God has put this challenge in front of us for a reason.
Anyway, that's a ton of info so my apologies for unloading, but it'll probably be a few days before I update unless something dramatic happens. My B is getting married Sat, and kids are registering for school, so busy week in store for us.
Today is our 15th anniversary! We actually slept in the same bed last night, she gave me new sheets as my gift (already on the bed!), and we ML this am. She hasn't opened my gift yet, but even at 8am, this anniversary is about 100x better than I would have thought a few weeks ago.
Gotta keep doing what works!
Wow Breakdown, you da man! Happy anniversary!
Kudos to you Break...
Slow and steady buddy...slow and steady...
Eric
Happy anniversary breakdown! Happy for you! Keep it going.....keep it going.
Two steps forward and one step back. Dinner ended up being a bust about half way thru, which was probably due to the wine pairing in part. She started talking about OM, and I got upset and said something she didn't like and then we just slid into the same old arguments and continued them thru dinner and all the way home. She dropped bomb again and slept in spare BR.
Some discussion this morning that is positive, but W feels like we're back at square one. I put together a list of what I was willing to do and what I wasn't willing to do and shared it with her, also provided her the same format in case she wanted to do the same (she didn't). It helped me wrap my own head around my boundaries and actions I want to take.
BD
What is the common denominator for most of your discussions turning downward ?????
The ONE common theme that I have read, time after time ???
What is the common denominator for most of your discussions turning downward ?????
The ONE common theme that I have read, time after time ???
I think my reaction to OM.
Letting my behavior be dictated by someone else....
I guess we can do this all day....
BD...
Every time a conversation goes down hill, there is alcohol involved.
Either a few drinks by her, a few drinks by you, a few beers together, and last night ?
I guess it was the wine....
????
Are you really gonna rest the fate of your marriage, on whether or not either of you have had a few drinks ????
You tell me what you think
Are you really gonna rest the fate of your marriage, on whether or not either of you have had a few drinks ????
You tell me what you think
Actually, I had thought about that....and I know it has certainly caused issues at times. I don't think it's a root cause but I do know it lets us both slip into old habits, and a lot of the work I've put into myself slips after 3-4 drinks. I can certainly do my part to exclude it.
Well....
I'm certainly NOT saying that you are a raging alcoholic or anything....
I just see a pattern here with this.
Read back at the bad conversations with her, and look at the circumstances surrounding them. A good portion of the time, they involve having drinks, at the bar, or after drinks...
Just something that I would like for you to look at.
How are you different, after a beer, or six ???
No, it's a good point. I actually stopped drinking for about 60 days at the beginning of the year because 1) I felt I was using it to cope and 2) my anger and frustration bubbled to the surface after a couple. I don't think either of those is true today, but I do know that after a few it's 10X harder to be patient, or act upbeat and happy in the face of OM discussions, or steer the conversation away from negativity. I still think I'm successful a lot of the times, but 1 bad night can't throw us off the edge of the cliff right now, so it's probably not a bad thing to cut out until we're on solid ground.
And honestly, no booze may help me get that last little bit of fat off my belly in the next few months, so it's a win win
One other thing I wanted to mention here that I'm unsure of. W is constantly complaining about my behavior in the first 5-10 years of our marriage and eventually I took a stand and said "I'm done apologizing for the same thing over and over." During our retrov weekend a woman said that her husband apologized 1000 times, and she didn't really hear it the first 999. My W reminded me of that this morning. I'm really starting to feel like she may need to hear it repeatedly for it to sink in, but I'm afraid it's a slippery slope. I really don't have a problem giving her the repeated apology for mistakes long past, but I don't want it to backfire on me. She hasn't really accepted responsibility for her part in our problems, and hasn't really even apologized for her relationship with OM.
I did apologize for my behavior the other night, and also threw out a blanket apology for the beginning of our marriage. I know this has been a big issue for her, and I truly am sorry about it, so why not. I don't plan on apologizing for the rest of my life, but I do think I can give a little here. I had decided not to continue apologizing because of other things I've read so when something's not working, why not try something else.
What I've decided to do (and we'll see how W responds) is to think of what I am really sorry for, specifically, and tell her one of those things each day for a while. I am not interested in taking the blame for all of our problems, and I would like her to own up to her mistakes as well, but I have no problem owning my part of it. I figure this might go on 10 days or so. After that, I think I'll try to have a sit down and not just apologize, but ask for her forgiveness, and see if that may help put this behind us.
I went and played some golf yesterday and W was watching a movie with the kids when I got home. I was really happy she chose to spend some time with them. She seems to be around a lot more. She also slept in the same bed with me, and moved up against me multiple times, so that's a positive too.
Busy finish to last week as well as the weekend....B was successfully married off and I think everything went great. Had a great time with W and kids, and it was pretty awesome to see all the family.
We took S13 & D11 to our church's youth kickoff last night and I took the kids around while W worked on a volunteer project. I talked to the pastor about doing some volunteering, one of the things I have been thinking about for some time. This is one of the things I think W is really happy about.
No change on the M front with me....W is still staying here, sleeping in same bed, ML regularly. No discussion of moving out or R. Touching seems to be increasing....W asking me to hold her hand or cuddling with me, so that's good. W is around a lot more now than in the last year, so again, that's positive.
For me, I am trying to stay upbeat and happy, enjoying time with W without applying pressure or guidelines/requirements, and trying to get out and do a few things for myself. We missed retrov Sat due to the wedding, but got an email today about a couple of opportunities to participate in the coming weeks. I may mention them to the W this week at some point if I can do it without appearing to apply pressure.
We're kind of in a happy limbo at the moment. I would love to have some R talk, to start dialoguing again, to "fix it!" But I realize my W's timetable is not the same as mine, and when she's ready, she'll let me know. And really, a happy limbo ain't all that bad
Little bit of a hiccup last night. W did not communicate with me all evening, bailed on plans with kids. I did well to not attack her, but I was clearly irritated with the lack of communication. I'm trying to give her space but I really struggle with her rolling in at 9pm without even taking 5 seconds to text me what's up. The kids were upset and I eventually got upset. Fear started creeping in and I really got upset with the idea of it going forward like this....I can't go back to that.
On the bright side, she hadn't been drinking so my worst fears weren't realized....and this morning, she apologized and explained the evening to me. I said that I was trying to give her space, but I expected some communication, and she agreed, so again, I guess that's positive.
This kind of stuff is difficult because we really haven't defined where we are or what the boundaries/expectations are. So happy limbo wasn't so happy last night I guess.
I sent another apology text to W this morning for something specific 16 years ago. She said I was so nice for sending her these little notes and it made her smile. I'm a little confused by the response to be honest....I thought I might get a "thank you" but maybe this is really something she needs to heal.
There's a retrov meeting coming up in a few weeks on the Languages of Apology....I went ahead and forwarded it to W, let her know I was going, and asked her if she'd like to come along. Clearly, I need some more understanding on this topic, especially with regards to my W's Languages.
No, it's a good point. I actually stopped drinking for about 60 days at the beginning of the year because 1) I felt I was using it to cope and 2) my anger and frustration bubbled to the surface after a couple. I don't think either of those is true today, but I do know that after a few it's 10X harder to be patient, or act upbeat and happy in the face of OM discussions, or steer the conversation away from negativity. I still think I'm successful a lot of the times, but 1 bad night can't throw us off the edge of the cliff right now, so it's probably not a bad thing to cut out until we're on solid ground.
And honestly, no booze may help me get that last little bit of fat off my belly in the next few months, so it's a win win
One other thing I wanted to mention here that I'm unsure of. W is constantly complaining about my behavior in the first 5-10 years of our marriage and eventually I took a stand and said "I'm done apologizing for the same thing over and over." During our retrov weekend a woman said that her husband apologized 1000 times, and she didn't really hear it the first 999. My W reminded me of that this morning. I'm really starting to feel like she may need to hear it repeatedly for it to sink in, but I'm afraid it's a slippery slope. I really don't have a problem giving her the repeated apology for mistakes long past, but I don't want it to backfire on me. She hasn't really accepted responsibility for her part in our problems, and hasn't really even apologized for her relationship with OM.
Breakdown:
Wanted to chime in here on two points....the first is the drinking....I never really thought mine was a problem either, but decided I would quit for a few reasons...it was unneccesary, it would help me drop a few and maybe most importantly it can lead to moodiness....not just at the time when your drinking but in general it can make you more moody and thats a problem for me anyway so I gave it up.
As for the apologizing thing....I feel the same way that I can't continue to apologize for the same things over and over, its in the past we have to move one. With that being said i've never heard anything like the 999 times thing and its somewhat eye opening to me. My advice is this, and its for me and for you....when you apologize make it specific...not a general im sorry for not treating you the way you should have been treated....but as much as you can remember apologize for the specific events. And secondly write it down...on paper or in an email and send it to her so that she can read it as often as she needs to hear it.
I haven't read your whole sitch so I can't tell you if thats a great idea right now or not....in my case i'd love to do it, but am not willing to put anything to email or paper that can shed me in a bad light at all later in case we end up in court. If she files papers im gonna fight her for custody of my S11 so although I don't need to apologize for anything thats illegal like domestic violence or anything like that...i'd hate for her lawyer to have a laundry list on paper of things that I felt i'd done wrong as a husband and father to use against me if/when we end up in a custody battle. So i'll write it, but she won't see it, at least not for now.
Thanks Carnac. I appreciate the input.
As for the apologizing thing....I feel the same way that I can't continue to apologize for the same things over and over, its in the past we have to move one. With that being said i've never heard anything like the 999 times thing and its somewhat eye opening to me. My advice is this, and its for me and for you....when you apologize make it specific...not a general im sorry for not treating you the way you should have been treated....but as much as you can remember apologize for the specific events. And secondly write it down...on paper or in an email and send it to her so that she can read it as often as she needs to hear it.
Yeah, that's kinda what I'm doing. I think I said the blanket sorry over and over before saying enough is enough. I'm now trying to be specific....I've got 5-6 more things that I am truly sorry for. On one hand, I feel like I'm just owning up to my mistakes, and I'm ok doing that. But once I've gone thru my list, I will ask for forgiveness and stop apologizing for history. For now though, it seems to be having a positive effect on her, so I'll continue.
W did say she'd go with me to the Forgiveness retrov pitch in a couple of weeks, so I'm pretty happy about that. There's a 20 question quiz that is supposed to help determine the primary ways you forgive and I think that'll help us both.
Some days are harder than others. We had been touching quite a bit in the last week, but since the hiccup the other night, there's quite a bit of distance between us. Thinking back on it, when she apologized, I didn't handle it the best, and it's probably why she doesn't feel comfortable. I should have hugged her and thanked her for apologizing, but instead, I felt like I needed to stand firm on what I felt was acceptable and explain it. Looking at it now, I can see that I went into protection mode (and I was really feeling a lot of fear), and I can see it pushed her back into her shell.
On the bright side, the fact that I can sit back and reflect on these things now and make sense of them, think thru how I want to be and see where I've slipped from the path, really demonstrates my growth over the last year. This whole thing is a process, and I can see myself moving in the right direction. My goal would be to pull these thoughts together in the moment....getting closer.
Pretty good weekend...kept busy, had some fun with friends and my oldest son. After church yesterday, W and I worked in the yard a bit, then hung out on the patio and talked for a bit. The discussion moved to forgiveness and dialoguing and while I didn't ask anything about R directly, I got the sense that she sees things quite a bit differently than I (yeah, shocker I know). I have been taking it day by day, without expectations...I got the sense that she has kinda melded back into our old relationship. I didn't want to spook her, so I just let the conversation flow, but it honestly scares me. That's not what I want.
Troubling things:
- W has password protected her phone. On one hand, the last thing I want to do is snoop, so I don't care, but on the other, this seems to go directly against the idea of rebuilding trust.
- W talked to OM this morning, in our house, with me here, for 15-20 mins. It was just like old times...very little work talk, mostly bs catching up kinda stuff. I have told W, in no uncertain terms, that I would not accept OM in our M in any shape or form, so this clearly is a slap in the face.
- I needed an email address from W so she pulled it up on her laptop and I clearly saw 2-3 emails from OM (unread). On one hand, she actually brought the laptop to me and left the room, so she wasn't wasn't worried about the possibility of me taking a look (I didn't), but still, continued contact with OM is troubling.
W left this morning and asked me multiple times what was wrong with me...my poker face suks, but I just said "nothing." She actually hugged me before she left, which is odd since she pretty much just leaves without even looking at me most days.
W has only been back a couple of weeks, so I realize it's pretty early in the process, but I'm really not sure how to proceed. Do I 1) have a sit down with W at this point and let her know I won't accept any contact with OM or 2) just roll with it for the time being or 3) ask her to explain where she is and what she's thinking?
How do I prevent being a doormat without pressuring W?
Pretty good weekend...kept busy, had some fun with friends and my oldest son. After church yesterday, W and I worked in the yard a bit, then hung out on the patio and talked for a bit. The discussion moved to forgiveness and dialoguing and while I didn't ask anything about R directly, I got the sense that she sees things quite a bit differently than I (yeah, shocker I know). I have been taking it day by day, without expectations...I got the sense that she has kinda melded back into our old relationship. I didn't want to spook her, so I just let the conversation flow, but it honestly scares me. That's not what I want.
Troubling things:
- W has password protected her phone. On one hand, the last thing I want to do is snoop, so I don't care, but on the other, this seems to go directly against the idea of rebuilding trust.
- W talked to OM this morning, in our house, with me here, for 15-20 mins. It was just like old times...very little work talk, mostly bs catching up kinda stuff. I have told W, in no uncertain terms, that I would not accept OM in our M in any shape or form, so this clearly is a slap in the face.
- I needed an email address from W so she pulled it up on her laptop and I clearly saw 2-3 emails from OM (unread). On one hand, she actually brought the laptop to me and left the room, so she wasn't wasn't worried about the possibility of me taking a look (I didn't), but still, continued contact with OM is troubling.
W left this morning and asked me multiple times what was wrong with me...my poker face suks, but I just said "nothing." She actually hugged me before she left, which is odd since she pretty much just leaves without even looking at me most days.
W has only been back a couple of weeks, so I realize it's pretty early in the process, but I'm really not sure how to proceed. Do I 1) have a sit down with W at this point and let her know I won't accept any contact with OM or 2) just roll with it for the time being or 3) ask her to explain where she is and what she's thinking?
How do I prevent being a doormat without pressuring W?
"I cannot see how talking to OM is not a dealthblow to this M, a disrespect to me. <Wifesname>, your going to have to choose. Him or me in this marriage. I' prepared to let you go on about your way"
Thanks DLS. I worry about giving her an ultimatum...not so much for the fear of her leaving, but more for her taking it as a controlling behavior. When she even thinks it might be controlling, these days she digs in and just goes the opposite way on principle alone.
For the time being, I've simply created some distance between us, but that's a short term thing only. While I'm concerned about the conversation, I do think it's going to have to happen relatively soon. I don't like the way I feel about it, and honestly, I'd be fine to let her go if she thinks that's ok behavior.
On a positive note, I have continued to send my W a text every couple of days apologizing for something specific...I'm really amazed at what a positive effect it's had on her. This morning, she actually sent me one! I am still in shock. It wasn't for one of her bigger mistakes, but her owning her own behavior and actually apologizing is huge.
Breakdown, Great job on being specific with your apologies. I heard one time that if we continue to ask for forgiveness for the same thing over and over then we're either not forgiving ourselves, or don't believe that the other has forgiven. If you've offered sincere apologies for things from the past move on and leave them there.
Thanks Carnac. I agree, but I also feel like the specificity is really helping my W in her healing process. I'm not repeating myself, and I've tried to apologize in broad strokes rather than specific instances so I'm covering many errors in one note. So much so that I'm just about finished...I might be able to pull a couple more out with some thought, but I'm really close to sitting her down and asking for forgiveness and putting it all behind us.
Frankly, even if she doesn't forgive me, I'm ready to put it all behind me....I forgave myself for my mistakes a while back and I'm not interested in beating that horse any longer.
Well, happened faster than I thought, but kinda how I thought....at first defensive, then aggressive, attacking me for all my faults throughout the marriage, dismissing anything good. I actually thought she was going to drop the bomb again, but she refrained, which I guess is good. She did say I could go give all my "goodness" to someone new and younger and one point, and I managed to jump in there somewhere and say "you're always my first choice."
In the end, I did tell her I was sorry for some specifics early in the marriage, and that she was right about a lot of things early on. But I also feel like we've changed places and a lot of what she's done in the last few years has been destructive and as far as OM went, I would not be in a marriage where he was part of it. She explained the "I love you" comment again (it's just because he has so low self esteem....yeah, me too, give me some! /rant) but I said it didn't matter, it was unacceptable and the relationship is continually damaging to our M.
I told her I knew it couldn't happen overnight due to the deals they are still in, but I couldn't go forward with him involved. I also reiterated that I really wasn't trying to control or manipulate, but rather, setting a boundary for what I thought was acceptable in our marriage. I reminded her that it was the only thing I was asking for...there are no other requirements. It is also her decision completely, and I was ok if she chose to leave the marriage instead.
There was a lot of attacking on her part and a few times I really got my feelings hurt. I let her drag me into arguments a few times, but I was calm 95% of the time. I saw some of the old arguments in a different light, so that was interesting, and I discussed it.
I'm glad it's over....and I'm glad I said it. I was walking on eggshells the last few days and I had told myself I wouldn't do that. Pretty productive discussion all in all....we'll see how it goes tomorrow.
Good for you Breakdown I konw that was tough and im sure scary as heck but now you've said what you needed to and put the ball in her court as long as your ok with either outcome its exactly what had to be done. Someday everyone ends up at that juncture I think and they have to decide what they will and won't accept. My sitch is different in that I don't really know if there's an OM or not, and while im willing to stand an awful long time for my marriage I know that there will come a day (a long time from now) when i'll tell her to either get in or out one or the other. Right now there's no movement either way and that kind of suits me currently, but it can't be that way indefinetly.
Im still feel like someday we'll be able to work this out, but until that happens i'd much rather have no movement than away movement.
Thanks Carnac. I didn't really give her the ultimatum "get in or get out" as much as I said "there is no option forward with OM in it." I told her she could have as much time as she needed to work thru things, to figure out what she wanted, etc. There's a end date to that as well, but I don't know when it is yet.
What I do know is that I'm fine whether she leaves or not, I will continue learning about myself, improving myself, being a better dad and a better partner. I feel really good today, and honestly, W was in a pretty good mood this morning too. She even mentioned a vacation...good thing I don't worry about what's she's thinking, because I'd be confused as hell otherwise lol
I didnt mean to sound like you gave her an ultimatum, I just meant that you made your feelings clear. I only mentioned giving mine an ultimatum b/c I know eventually i'll have to if nothing changes, but im with you on this one, I dont know the date of that yet, but its a long way off.
And its awesome to hear that your going to be fine either way, I really wanna say that, but in my heart I just have such a hard time with it still. Even on my good days, and today is one of those for sure, I miss my wife terribly and while I know that feeling will fade I can't even imagine seeing her with someone else. I read somewhere onetime one of the ways to figure out if your ready to be done with a R is to imagine that person with someone else and see how it affects you. Honestly I can hardly bear the thought of it, and its not a 'i have to win' thing...its a we have almost 15 years of history and im absolutely crazy about her thing.
Anyway, wasn't trying to be a downer today, its a wonderful Wednesday and no matter this sitch there is plenty in life to be happy about, we've just gotta focus on that rather than the other.
Hang in there buddy...it gets easier. I'm in a really good place in my head, but some days are still hard.
Last night was my biggest test....when I said "I'm ok if you leave," I really meant it. Not because I didn't want my M to work....I want that more than anything...but because I knew that I had to stand up for the kind of M I wanted.
I hear you. Im getting closer to ok with the thought of it, just haven't quite got there in my mind yet. I know its a process and I know that part of that process is just letting enough time go by. I may go back through some stages, but I'm moving forward each day and know its simply the road I have to travel.
Im truly in a good place at least today, just gotta try to keep the good feelings going.
I need to slow down for a few days...I'm friggin tired.
Sat - 5k race
Sun - concert with S17
Mon - movie night with kids
Tue - talk with W about OM
Wed - golf league
Thu -
gonna veg!! Fri - Lorax with kids
Sat - possible trip to my Dad's
We golfed with a couple of older gentlemen last night and the one reminded me of my grandpa with the way he talked. I felt so comfortable and laughed so much. It was an awful lot of fun.
W wakes me this am and initiates ML and then hugged me before she left for work. She even made coffee! Wow, where has this woman been!? I hope she sticks around
Before I forget, I wanted to share one of the texts I sent to my W regarding the apologies I've been doing:
"
I'm sorry I didn't understand or address my insecurities sooner, and I'm sorry how I let it affect you and our relationship."
It is something I've been working on, and I am truly sorry for it. But at the same time, it isn't specific enough to make me worry about her using it in court should we go our separate ways. And really, addressing the specific instances where it caused problems is less meaningful to me, because I wouldn't be addressing the true problem.
Man thats one busy week. I thought my life was hectic....sounds like your had a great morning and I think your text is fantastic. I have been contemplating an email to my W, not ready to send it just yet, but sooner or later I will and im there with you about the vagueness.....its unfortunate but it has to be that way b/c there's no way Im putting specific enough things in there that she might try to use against me if we ever end up in court.
I really like your text and will keep that one in the back of my mind b/c thats really one of the largest drivers of our problems.
I really like your text and will keep that one in the back of my mind b/c thats really one of the largest drivers of our problems.
I hope it helps. The apologies have really helped immensely. I was hesitant to do them at first, but they really hit the mark for my W. My W told me the other night that the blanket "sorry" was really meaningless for her, because she didn't really feel like I was. There were no specifics tied to it, and she thought it was easy to say it without truly meaning it.
We're planning to go to a retrov CORE session in a couple of weeks about the languages of apology (kinda like the 5 LL) and I am really looking forward to that. I'm hoping we not only learn, but can use it as a springboard to move past some of this stuff.
Its good that she has told you the blanket sorry did nothing....knowledge is the key. I really WANT to make my wife happy, but we've done what most others do in life and that is never to ASK one another what makes them happy but assume we know and do that. Its unfortunate, but I now recognize it and if we rebuild our relationship I want her to tell me what her LL are. Again I thought I knew but obviously I was wrong.
I read an interesting comment once....I really can't remember if it was here or elsewhere and it was talking about the golden rule....treat others the way you want to be treated etc....but truthfully you should be treating others the way THEY want to be treated, not necessarily the way you would want to be treated. Thats where part of my failure lies, but again, now I recognize it.
treat others the way you want to be treated etc....but truthfully you should be treating others the way THEY want to be treated, not necessarily the way you would want to be treated. Thats where part of my failure lies, but again, now I recognize it.
Yeah, I think you're dead on. I read something once like "real love is recognizing how your spouse defines real love, and giving it to them" and that really struck a cord with me.
I think thats a great definition BD, obviously I personally had alot of issues that im working out each and every day and one of the biggest was not really knowing what made her happy. I constantly 'did' things wether it was notes, calls, flowers etc. But I missed out on her LL...if I were to guess i'd say it was acts of service and undivided attention....thats what i've gathered from things she told her dad after we seperated.
But even though I think those are what she needs, I still have to ASK her what makes her happiest when the time comes. I dont think I realized until all of this happened that i've never done that.
But even though I think those are what she needs, I still have to ASK her what makes her happiest when the time comes. I dont think I realized until all of this happened that i've never done that.
Yeah, don't beat yourself up too much on this. I've known my W most of my life (27 years now I think) and I didn't know what her LL was. Yeah, I had an idea, but still, talk about feeling stupid.
Some ups and downs over the last week. I went to have a beer with my B a few days ago and met up with a buddy I hadn't seen in a while. A series of poor decisions got me home with way to much to drink, and a bit of a mouth.
W was reasonably upset, and I apologized for the words I had said (which may have come from a reasonable place, but came out in a unreasonable way). She said the next day she was unsure what to do. I realize I took a lot of good work and flushed it in one night of drinking (sorry Mach1).
A couple days in, it seemed to be getting better, but tonight, W mentioned to S17 that she had a friend she went to HS with that had a S that enlisted, and died within a few months. She basically said, the kid was selfish and stupid, and I don't want you to do that.
When we got back to our room, I said that I thought her reasoning was unfair. While it may have been selfish and stupid, it could have been patriotic and unselfish. I didn't feel like we should portray military service as a dumb thing, and look down on those that serve. W blew up at me telling me she didn't care what my opinion was, that she had listened to it for too long, and that she just wanted to watch tv in peace.
She ended up going to the spare bedroom, saying "good night" and I said something in finish like "fine, I'm done with that kind of behavior."
I said at one point, regardless where we go, you're going to have to come to terms with the kids getting my opinion. She said, "that's fine, but I don't want to be lectured to about it. I said I didn't think I was lecturing, just trying to explain my point of view, but she didn't care.
When I went to check on the kids, W was asleep and I asked S17 for a private word. I explained to him W's point of view and mine, and he was ok with it. We agreed on not promoting military service in our family, but only disagreed on how to portray those that do. S17 was good with it, and I don't really think we have to worry about any of our children going that route. The only difference I see is that if they do, I support them, and W doesn't.
Kind of a crappy end to the weekend. I thought we were moving in the right direction, but honestly, I am getting tired of dealing with the crap. I want my M to work, but it's getting old me being the only one thinking that. I'm scared that I think it may be easier to move on than fix this.
I thought we were moving in the right direction, but honestly, I am getting tired of dealing with the crap. I want my M to work, but it's getting old me being the only one thinking that. I'm scared that I think it may be easier to move on than fix this.
I hate that I even wrote that. Yeah, I do get tired...I wish it were different, but I have to own up to the backslide I had last week. That took all the trust that was building and trashed it. I've got to start building it again...one day at a time.
The argument last night was just stupid, and I should have just let it go. I didn't because I thought it was something that could shape our children's thoughts, and that concerned me, but W's not in a place to listen to my point of view on anything right now and I should have realized that.
Had about an hour talk with W last night, which was pretty productive. She basically told me she was starting to come around until I acted like an idiot the other night, and it put her back at square one. No surprise there, but I am surprised she told me so plainly. We also discussed the argument the night before, and she basically said we agreed with me, but didn't really want to talk about it at the time. She also told me, and this is the big one, that I have done more nurturing to our marriage in the last month with the apologies than I had in the 15 years prior. Talk about the apologies having a big impact! She said it wasn't the apology as much as it was the fact that I was letting my walls down and letting her in.
W's b-day today. I started with breakfast in bed and for this evening, I planned a scavenger hunt around the house with a gift and a choice of vacation (not sure she'll take me up on it, but what the heck). Looking forward to the hunt....I've done this a couple of times over the course of our marriage, with the first one being on our 1st anniversary. The prize then was a cruise, so hopefully today brings back some good memories.
The final clue (which refers to a surprise renewal of our vows in Hawaii on our 5th anniversary):
A secret plan,
With intent to wed
Ended not in a church
But on a beach instead
We have a picture on our mantel of us on that beach. Behind the picture will be the prize. Hoping she enjoys her day and she's reminded of some of the good times we've had along the way.
Journaling:
W came home an hour late, didn't answer my call, nor return my text. I struggled with that, as I had made dinner reservations for the whole family, and that is an old behavior of hers. When she did get home, she had been drinking, another old issue. She said she grabbed a beer on her way home, but I honestly just assumed someone took her out for her bday. Either way, I wasn't thrilled. When I asked her about drinking on her way home (which is weird to me), she said "in case you didn't know, I'm miserable." Awesome start to the evening!
Anyway, we had a quick talk, I told her I was a little panic'd because of the dinner reservation, she was pretty patient really, and we both agreed to start fresh a few mins later.
Scavenger hunt was a huge success. W got the kids involved and it was great fun for everyone. In the prize card, I wrote:
A ring for today,
A vacation for tomorrow
Let's turn a new page
And leave behind the sorrow
I didn't realize how strong those words would be when she read them aloud, but everyone started crying, me included. She hugged and kissed me and told me thanks and then we piled in the car for dinner. Dinner was great...she held my hand for much of it.
Unfortunately, on the way to dinner she was texting and at dinner she again checked her phone. I noticed OM's name and asked about it, and she showed me the email. I said, that wasn't what I saw, and she showed me her text. He had left her a VM about losing money in the market and she text him about how she just finished a great scavenger hunt and was going to dinner with the family. WTF?!
I made a decision right then to just leave it alone and have a nice evening, but when I woke up early, I struggled with the whole concept. I told her very clearly I would not be in a M where OM was involved, and yet, the relationship continues.
We both were up at 4am for some reason. I dressed and left the room and she came and asked me to come back to bed. We talked for the next couple of hours and I basically told her I was struggling with whether or not I should continue to fight for our M. The discussion wasn't bad, but it wasn't really helpful either, at least not to me. A couple of times she was explaining how she felt and I asked some deeper questions (i.e. W: I don't know how to let it go and still "win" and I asked "How do you define winning?"), and she told me how different I was now.
She said she was struggling with who she was versus who she wanted to be. This is similar to my own journey so I told her how I had approached things.
We also talked a little about forgiveness. I told her I thought she should forgive herself (she continually says how she's upset she didn't stand up for the M she wanted sooner) and she basically said that wasn't the problem. I asked if she refused to forgive me because it meant losing track of "the score" and that seemed to hit a nerve.
Had my first session with my new DB coach today and it went awesome! I was really worried about this issue with the OM and how I should proceed, but I got some good advice today and feel so much better. I also got confirmation that a lot of my thoughts and actions are on the right track, so keep doing what works!
Breakdown,
I have read some of your sitch now. Wow. Talk about a roller coaster. You are a good man for sticking with it.
Your behavior, as you describe it, reminds me a lot of my own H. Insecure and never feeling like he was up to par in my eyes. Not speaking my LL. Tearing me down. Using sarcasm as a weapon. All of it. I have also known my H since we were 12 though we didn't start dating until we were 28.
The difference between my H and you is that he is not aware of any of these things, nor is he invested at all (at this point) in working on our M. He hasn't read one book and his IC doesn't seem to be helping him much. He is still all worked up about my prior misbehavior (sexting), for which I have apologized profusely, but hasn't seen that HIS behavior contributed. How were you able to get to the point where you could look inside and admit that you were partially to blame? How did you get over the anger you have towards your W?
What could I do or say to my H that would help him come around a bit? I am behaving much differently than your W in that I am totally kissing my H's butt. I could stand up to him but he's a lot angrier than you are and I think I need to back down as a 180.
Breakdown,
I have read some of your sitch now. Wow. Talk about a roller coaster. You are a good man for sticking with it.
Thanks Regret. I certainly hope my W eventually agrees with you
The difference between my H and you is that he is not aware of any of these things, nor is he invested at all (at this point) in working on our M. He hasn't read one book and his IC doesn't seem to be helping him much. He is still all worked up about my prior misbehavior (sexting), for which I have apologized profusely, but hasn't seen that HIS behavior contributed. How were you able to get to the point where you could look inside and admit that you were partially to blame? How did you get over the anger you have towards your W?
These are tough questions, and it hurts my heart to think that someone else has a situation so similar.
What you describe reminds me a lot of when I discovered my W's sexting thing 5-6 years ago. I wasn't ready to accept any responsibility, only blame her...question her as to how she could do such a thing to our family. How could she be so weak with so much on the line? Had our values we'd shared for 20+ years changed so drastically? What was she teaching our children?
Looking back, that was my first big opportunity to change my behavior, to address my own brokenness. But I missed out on it. My W apologized over and over, she explained in as "exciting." I think the only thing I took on as my own at that point was maybe I wasn't paying enough attention to her. Unfortunately, for an insecure person, that isn't always a good thing to try to fix.
For me, I think I started really thinking about who I was and who I wanted to be about 6 months before the bomb. I started reading "A Journey Called You" and started thinking about a lot of things, but it was a very slow process at that point. What made me start thinking that? I don't honestly know. Maybe my age, maybe I just got tired of being unhappy, maybe I was bored, maybe it was my uncle dying, I really don't know.
After W dropped the B, my thoughts went into high gear. I dug into it like there was no tomorrow because based on my childhood, divorce was not something I wanted for my children, and I really do love this woman with all my heart.
As for the anger, about a year ago, I pulled my W aside one day and said "I know you may not need to hear this, but I need to say it....I forgive you. I forgive you for all of it...for the teenage hurts, for the time we were apart, for the texting thing, for all of it." I really did forgive her, and the anger slid away. The thing was though, I had so many hurt feelings and so much resentment from my childhood, I had to forgive my parents too. I had to forgive myself for how I had treated W and kids.
I also allowed God to play a bigger part in my life and that has helped immensely. The idea that he puts obstacles in front of us to drive change really helps me deal with my problems, and work thru them.
What could I do or say to my H that would help him come around a bit? I am behaving much differently than your W in that I am totally kissing my H's butt. I could stand up to him but he's a lot angrier than you are and I think I need to back down as a 180.
I really struggle to answer this one, as my W asks me once in a while something similar. She is always trying to figure out what she could have done along the way to make me "get it." She sometimes is mad at herself because she thinks if she would have asked for D after our first 5 years, maybe I would have fixed myself then and we'd have 10 good years under our belt now. My response to that is "I wasn't ready, so I'd have probably told you to go ahead and go....I always figured you'd leave anyway." She hates this answer, but I think it's important for her to understand she couldn't force this change....I had to want it.
On the other hand, I have a similar issue with my W, as she is really bent on blaming me for everything bad in our M. She refuses to accept any responsibility for her own negative behaviors. When she admits that something was wrong, she pushes it back on me....I forced her to do that, I mistreated her so what was she supposed to do, etc etc.
So I guess I'd say, you can't force it....they have to want to change, they have to want to listen, to understand. You have to be patient and wait for them to come around.
I will say though, I wouldn't continue to kiss your H's butt though. You apologized...it is up to him to forgive. If he's like me, that's going to be difficult, especially the first time. What you can do is stand your ground. Don't let him continue to have all the power by blaming you for everything. That just allows him to avoid his own issues.
If you are able to have calm discussions about serious topics, I think over time, you could get there kinda how Mach1 helped me break down some of my own walls. Ask deep questions, and explain your own feelings. The fact that you had an EA is just the first layer of the onion....why did you? What were you feeling? What did it give you your H didn't? Has it always been like this? Did you try to change your H? Did you try to make you H happy and eventually give up? (that one was true for my W)
Journaling:
Had a tough day yesterday as I mentioned in someone else's thread. The day started great, but as I was getting ready to run out for groceries, I hear W talking to her M about OM. It sounded an awful lot like they were in a relationship that wasn't working out. It was really difficult to hear. Part of it was probably my own "filling in the blanks" but I think that only applies to some.
On the bright side, she didn't try to hide while I was in the room. I think she changed the subject a few times, but she didn't have a problem talking in front of me. I guess that is good.
I kinda got into a funk about it and wasn't really upbeat for most of the day. W asked me multiple times what I was mad about and what was wrong, but I simply avoided the topic. Before we went to bed I was reading and we talked a little. She asked me why I was mad and I said "I really haven't been mad. More confused, and feeling disrespected." She asked me if I wanted to talk about it and I thought in silence for a few mins, really weighing it out, and said "No, I don't think it will help."
I couldn't really see much benefit to it honestly. She would have explained away everything she said. She might have been honest, she might have lied. I wouldn't know, and history tells me she'll be defensive and lie or omit as necessary. And at the end, I probably wouldn't feel any better and she'd see my insecurities flash in front of her again, so I just dropped it.
This is basically what Cheryl told me to do during my coaching session...just don't worry about OM for now. Generally, I'm ok with that approach, but to hear W talk about him in the detail she did makes it really really difficult.
This morning W woke up cranky...wasn't very friendly at all and I just ignored it. She came to me a few times like she wanted to talk, but then clammed up, so I just returned to my office. She asked me to sit on the patio and have coffee, which I did, but then she got up after a few mins. Before she left, she said she was cranky, stressing about work, and said she'd see me later.
Man, it'll be nice to get off this roller coaster some day.
Breakdown -
I'm really impressed by the way you've handled all of this. What a lot of growth for you. You've taken the hard steps of looking inside and fixing what wasn't working. You deserve a lot of commendation. I wish my H could meet you.
Interesting to hear that you thought that your W would leave you. I know that my H thinks that for sure. It is his insecurity coming into play. For example he doesn't understand that my sexting thing had nothing to do with the actual guy and I wasn't planning on leaving him. However, about 3 years ago there WAS a guy who I might have left him for and I think that really kicked his insecurity into high gear. So now I think he's playing this game to get me to leave him.
Also of note here is that his own mother abandoned the family when he was 13 or 14 and I guarantee he has not processed that. This is playing in to our sitch for sure. One time he even started comparing me to his mother.
Ironically the only time we can really have a good discussion is after we ML. I'm still very afraid to talk to him about my feelings because he just turns it around on me eventually. He isn't endeavoring to understand where I'm coming from at all. He claims he isn't ready to work on the R and I think that's true: he doesn't know how to get where he needs to be so that he can work on the R. And he certainly won't let me help him get there.
I do know exactly why I engaged in the whole sexting thing - not only was it exciting but it made me feel wanted and validated. Not just wanted in the sexual sense, but wanted as a person. My H's contempt for me was palpable, and I was going through a tough time at work. I had a terrible boss and that coupled with my H's rejection led to almost a complete loss of self-esteem. So to have this guy interested in me felt good and I engaged in it to feel better. Plain and simple. And it worked. Of course, I didn't really realize any of this at the time.
I probably didn't put enough effort into the M. Neither of us really did. We were too caught up in what the other person wasn't doing to focus on anything good that was there. I was selfish and he was destructive. We have HORRIBLE communication together which doesn't help... let's face it, we are a mess. Now he is saying he wants to move out and we can barely cover our expenses as it is.
Your sitch gives me hope - I know it's not perfect but you are both trying hard. Keep going. I know it gets so frustrating sometimes, but that's what all of us are here for - to help when the going gets tough.
Thanks Regret. I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it....I'm happier now than I've ever been, and my M is in shambles. How awesome is it going to be when my M isn't?!
I really feel for your H. Abandonment really tears you up, and scars you as an adult. He probably doesn't even realize it yet, which is the worst. He thinks he's strong, pushing thru, doing what he has to. You're breach of trust is a horrible horrible thing for him (sorry, but it really is...I don't think my W even comprehends how devastating it was for me). If he is anything like me, he probably never completely trusted you to start. His walls have been there all his life and he really doesn't know how to function otherwise.
How does your H behave with your kids? Is he part of their lives? Does he show a tender side with them? Or is he quick to anger and let's you do most of the parenting? I'm interested what he's planning for them. If he's like me, the very last thing he wants is for them to experience what he did, in any fashion.
Does your H read at all? I am thinking about a book a read that basically said anger is the easiest emotion to show, and that really hit the mark for me. It might be the Codependent book or it might be No More Mr. Nice Guy....I'll dig around and see if I can find it. If he does read, it could be a trigger of sorts, as it was for me to a point, but he'd have to be open to it.
I have read some of your sitch, but haven't caught up yet. I'll try to get thru it today. I'll also spend some time thinking about what I think my W could have done to help me along the path (outside of asking for D), if anything. Understanding his deep scarring might be the only thing you can do, and I do think that would help immensely, but I'll think on it.
Journaling:
Interesting finish to the evening so I thought I would mention it. W was cranky to start the day. Came home for 30 mins, printed some stuff and went out for an evening appt. I told her I wouldn't be here to make dinner and explained that I had a fantasy football draft I was going to.
Once W got home, she called me and I answered. She just wanted to know when I'd be home and at the end of the conversation she says "I love you" and I responded with the same. After I hung up, I was in a bit of shock. I don't think she's told me ILU in 6 months, and probably only a couple of times in the last 18 months honestly. As I thought about it, I figured she was probably worried I was with someone else and was testing me, but I really don't care what the driving force was. That's a huge step.
After about an hour, she started texting me repeatedly, asking if I'd get her some food on the way home, saying he wanted me home, and being playful about it. I stayed a little longer than I had planned because some buddies showed up, but I did get her some food and the evening ended pretty well
Thanks Breakdown. I left you a long response on my thread. Your insight is super helpful. I don't fully comprehend the effect that my breach of trust had on my H. I don't have those trust issues and I just am not capable of understanding it. Even when my X BF tried to get with my sister, we broke up, but it didn't hit me in that way.
My H does read but the only thing he's read in regards to R is "The Art of Loving" which IMO is impossible to get through and not helpful at all. You are right, he thinks he's being tough and pushing through when in reality I think he's not getting anywhere.
Oh well, as my good friend says, keep breathing...
And glad your W is coming around :-D
W says to me last night "Seether is coming to town" (I'm a fan), and I say "Yeah, but it's about an hour away, I just can't do the drive after a concert. W says "We could get a hotel and make a date night out of it...would be fun." WTF?!
So today, I book the concert and the hotel. I am honestly thrilled to go! I'm a little shocked that she took the initiative here, but happily so. W is out of town for work, so I haven't told her yet, but I think it'll be a nice surprise.
The ups are really good...enjoy them!
Wow congrats! I need to read through your whole sitch when I have time.
Journaling:
Things have been pretty good, but hit a bump yesterday. After dinner we were talking a little about the retrouvaille session we went to Sat and the discussion bled into a bunch of other things, like about how marriages have become disposable, how people don't address their own issues, etc etc.
Well, after dinner we were sitting in bed and the conversation turned to our R. I said something along the lines of my love for W had always been constant, and she commented that I just didn't always show it, which is a fair statement. When that got flipped around, I asked her, what did she think she had showed me over the last 5-6 years and she got pissed. I was very calm, and I told her I didn't really want an answer, I just wanted her to think about how she had felt versus what she thought she showed me. At that point it became clear I hit a nerve so I asked her if she wanted to stop talking about it and she said yes. She pretty much hasn't talked to me since.
I thought about bringing it up this AM and apologizing if she thought I was trying to make her feel bad, because I really wasn't, but I just left it alone.
Got a little insight on the discussion the other night. W said that she felt I was trying to control her, trying to push her towards the answer I wanted. I wonder if that is just an excuse to avoid thinking about it, because I honestly am interested in her perceptions...I already know what I think about it.
I realize I've been controlling, and it's been a long time so her defensive mechanisms are probably automatic. But these days, it seems like I can't say anything, even positive, without it being construed as controlling.
Journaling:
W called me on her way to her last appt last night. I was making dinner so we chatted for a few about different things we had to get done. Near the end of the conversation she says something like "we should just pack up and go on vacation for a few days." I immediately started looking at a trip and we talked about it for about an hour when she got home. We're looking about 3-4 weeks out, so this could be good!
I mentioned it to my Dad (he'll be watching the kiddos) and he said "you really need to go somewhere where you can talk and get this stuff fixed." My response, "This is an opportunity for us to remind ourselves why we fell in love, to see how much fun we have together, and to see how good we are together. R discussion is not on the table unless W brings it up."
Awesome news Breakdown and great response to your Dad.
Journaling:
Things have been mostly good for the last week or so, but definitely some ups and downs.
Vacation is on hold for time being, as there are a few other things that we need instead in the short term. A bummer, but stuff happens.
Last night ended pretty rough. First real argument we've had since she's been back in the house and she threatened D again multiple times. She went on and on about how my relationship before we got married hurt her, to which I apologized and tried to explain what was in my head at the time. She didn't like anything I said and just continued to attack me on it. It was pretty awful and I'm not happy that I lost my cool a few times.
This AM W apologized to me for "being hysterical" and I apologized as well. We calmly talked for maybe an hour about some of the issues. She said she didn't want to ML because she felt like it gave me false hope (which I realize is script, but I also find odd given how much we're ML right now). She also said she was really unhappy everyday and when I asked her why, she said because of her own indecision. She feels guilty for keeping me in this situation and feels unsettled not knowing what she's going to do.
In the end I told her I'm living day by day and not reading anything into anything, to which she responded, "that is so unlike you." I also told her that she wasn't keeping me in anything--I make a conscious choice every day to stay in this M and fight for it.
Journaling:
Things have been mostly good for the last week or so, but definitely some ups and downs.
Vacation is on hold for time being, as there are a few other things that we need instead in the short term. A bummer, but stuff happens.
Last night ended pretty rough. First real argument we've had since she's been back in the house and she threatened D again multiple times. She went on and on about how my relationship before we got married hurt her, to which I apologized and tried to explain what was in my head at the time. She didn't like anything I said and just continued to attack me on it. It was pretty awful and I'm not happy that I lost my cool a few times.
This AM W apologized to me for "being hysterical" and I apologized as well. We calmly talked for maybe an hour about some of the issues. She said she didn't want to ML because she felt like it gave me false hope (which I realize is script, but I also find odd given how much we're ML right now). She also said she was really unhappy everyday and when I asked her why, she said because of her own indecision. She feels guilty for keeping me in this situation and feels unsettled not knowing what she's going to do.
In the end I told her I'm living day by day and not reading anything into anything, to which she responded, "that is so unlike you." I also told her that she wasn't keeping me in anything--I make a conscious choice every day to stay in this M and fight for it.
Have her understand how these situations really go down, and is it REALLY fair to ask of someone who was at one time their "friend" to stand in for a situation which has a greater than 9 times out of 10 chance for failure?
Breakdown, thanks for your journaling, it's been very interesting reading about your journey! I hope you don't mind a 2x4, but I've noticed that again and again you guys keep engaging in nasty arguments and every time you do it drives your W away and even back to "square 1" as you've mentioned more than once. Don't go down cheeseless tunnels! She's still in a very emotional state, that much is clear. It's incumbent upon YOU to do ALL of the work right now. Don't expect her to meet you halfway. Don't expect her to own up to her part in this. She will in time, but she clearly is not there yet. You've got to quit the arguing and instead validate her feelings and emotions. When she starts to argue, tell her you're sorry she feels that way, and express her emotions back to her- "it sounds to me like you are angry and frustrated, I'm very sorry you feel that way." You're not agreeing or disagreeing, you're validating. It'll immediately diffuse the situation. Have you read the 5 Love Languages? If not then get it right away. Work on filling her love tank, and work on validating her feelings and communicating on more friendly terms, 5LL goes into this in easy-to-understand terms. Quit pushing her buttons, and if she pushes yours then be the force of calm rather than the fuel on the fire. It's never too late for new 180's! Good luck!
Thanks AS. I appreciate the 2x4. I have read 5LL and use it regularly....I pretty much recommend that one to everyone, even folks I talk to who aren't having problems. Wish I had read it 20 years ago!
You're right on the validating. Explaining was something new I was trying to see if it helped her....it didn't, so back to validating. And when I start to run out of patience, I need to just take a walk.
I will say that I learned quite a bit from her yesterday and the fact that she apologized is a baby step in the right direction. She also told me she hadn't accepted responsibility for her own actions and explained some of that, so that shows me that she is working thru some of our issues on her own...another baby step. I also learned about some of her deep wounds she's struggling with, so will try to use that information in coordination with her LL and see how that goes.
I have tried to avoid any kind of pursuit for a long time now, but I'm almost feeling like I'm getting to the point where maybe I should try some. I said something to her like "I want to tell you how much I love you and hug you every time I see you" and that really seemed to have a positive impact on her. Of course, tell her ties in to her LL, so it makes sense.
Our evening yesterday was truly amazing, so I'm going to try to keep that going.
It's a pretty awesome day when W calls to see if you want a movie on her way home, let's you finish your workout while she starts dinner, and while you're cooking she pinches your @ss!
It's a pretty awesome day when W calls to see if you want a movie on her way home, let's you finish your workout while she starts dinner, and while you're cooking she pinches your @ss!
Yeah, this can get sweeter for the rest of your life too.
It's a pretty awesome day when W calls to see if you want a movie on her way home, let's you finish your workout while she starts dinner, and while you're cooking she pinches your @ss!
Yeah, this can get sweeter for the rest of your life too.
Yeah, I hope so, but I'm just taking it day by day for now and trying to make each day as good as possible. W is taking half day today (it's been years since she's been willing to do this, so big positive) and we're going out for sushi later.
Our local retrouvaille has another weekend starting tonight so we talked a little bit this morning about the post sessions coming up. We missed most of them, and I really want to go to the ones on trust and forgiveness. I actually think W's in a much better position to go to them now than she was in the summer. We also got hooked into the local retrouv meetings so that's a big positive as well.
I almost feel like we're piecing....but still waiting for W to say "I want to work on it."
My oh my....
How we have grown
Why does she have to "say" it ??
Just live it..
She didn't "say" it on your first date did she ?
My oh my....
How we have grown
Why does she have to "say" it ??
Just live it..
She didn't "say" it on your first date did she ?
Hey Mach1! So good to see you!
And yes, very good point. We're talking vacations and going to the retrouvaille post sessions and local meetings. We're having dates and ML nearly every day. W is calling with her plans, coming home early most days, asking to do things with me, rarely on the phone at home.
There are still ups and downs, but definitely more ups these days. I still have 2 more DB Coach sessions paid for, but I'm actually considering gifting them to my W. We'll see how things go over the next few weeks and see if she's interested.
Personally, I still have a long way to go and am continuing to work on me, but you helped me get over some sizable hurdles and I really, really appreciate all the time you spent with me. You're style really made me think, and it was really a good fit for me. I really feel blessed. My sincerest thank you!
You do still have a long way to go, yet you have come really far.
I want you to see, that you have way too much focus on the situation instead of just enjoying the little things that can add up.
Take things one day at a time, let the little things (actions) speak really loudly to you , and propel you through the times when you feel like beating your head against a wall.
Life is about the journey, not just the destination. To me, it still means something about how I get to my destination. Eventually, we will all die, and we don't get to take anything with us except for our legacy.
BD....remember that you are the one who did the work, I just helped you see the things that you couldn't/wouldn't see in yourself.
Your welcome...
And to really thank me, keep paying it forward to the others that are behind you....
That is where true gratitude really lies, and that is what this site is built on...
I'm not around much anymore, so if you need me, just give me a shout out, and I will be around as soon as I can.
You have much to be proud of, regardless the outcome of your marriage. (Although you appear to be on the right track with that).
: )
I want you to see, that you have way too much focus on the situation instead of just enjoying the little things that can add up.
Take things one day at a time, let the little things (actions) speak really loudly to you , and propel you through the times when you feel like beating your head against a wall.
Agreed. I have really being taking it day by day, but I'd like to break that down into smaller pieces and enjoy the moments more.
And to really thank me, keep paying it forward to the others that are behind you....
That is where true gratitude really lies, and that is what this site is built on...
Definitely trying to do that and hope to continue as I learn more and my sitch gets better (fingers crossed). I also talked to my W about volunteering to help with retrouvaille. It wasn't the fix all for us, but I do think it's a great program and so many people face similar struggles as us. So far, she's been really open to the idea.
You do still have a long way to go, yet you have come really far.
You have much to be proud of, regardless the outcome of your marriage. (Although you appear to be on the right track with that).
Thanks, and agreed.
In the book, A Journey Called You, the author says a couple of things about the "inner shift" that has stuck with me. She says, "Most people try to change their behavior. This may work for a while, but it is rarely sustainable.
Change how you think, change how you think about yourself, and you easily change the results in your life."
This is the journey I've started, and will continue on.
Change how you think, change how you think about yourself, and you easily change the results in your life."
I love this breakdown. this rings so true... its not outwardly behavior that brings change, its internal movement that results in change.
so happy for you breakdown!
Well... things are looking pretty good for you! Amazing journey you've been on. I'm lucky to continue to benefit from your experience and good advice and I'm sure that many of the others here are benefiting as well.
Thanks for the support. Things are definitely going pretty well right now. I was a little worried about how the last 5-6 days were going to go as we had a lot of stressful activities including a couple of days dedicated to W's family, but everything went pretty well.
We're still both a little stressed as work is busy for both of us and our weeks seem to fill up pretty fast with activities, but I think trying to enjoy the moments definitely helps me, and me being happy definitely helps my W. Still shopping that vacation....we could really use a few days to reset.
Wow, is it a full moon or something? Seems like everyone's week is going to hell in a hand basket.
I got notice of court hearing yesterday in the mail. I called in a favor and had it looked up and it appears that my W has filed everything required for D and our initial date is now set for Jan.
W got a similar letter in the mail yesterday. I saw her open it and put it in her purse, but she didn't mention it. I didn't want to say anything about it, as I like to have some time to digest, but it's a bit of a surprise.
We had an issue with S18 last night so were both up extremely late. As we lied in bed, we talked about how excited we were for Friday, as we are getting massages, grabbing sushi after, and then seeing a concert, with an overnight stay downtown. The whole thing seems like a dream now.
We texted a little today and at one point she said my patience and understanding with her and the kids these days is incredible. Uh...thanks...I guess.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not freaking out or anything, but it does hurt my feelings that this seems to have been done recently and behind my back. A month ago, it wouldn't have surprised me for a second, but now...
Guess we'll find out tonight.
W's first response to my question about paperwork: "Well, you wanted me to make a decision" and then she started in on blaming me. I told her she knew that was completely untrue and I would not take the blame for anything she decided. She was free to make her choices, but she must accept responsibility for those choices.
Shortly thereafter, she says it's a mistake by the court or attorney, as she has not done anything since June. So I say "Which is it? You're making a decision or it's a mistake by the court?" She goes with the latter, but says she completed everything in June when she was feeling pressure from me about making a decision, but hadn't pulled the switch yet. And then she apologized for me getting surprised by it all.
There were a number of times she mentioned feeling guilty for keeping me in the relationship, and that she wasn't able to give me everything I wanted right now. She also said that she didn't think that D would change the fact that I wanted our repair our R. I explained to her that it was a healing process, that it would take significant time, and there was no need to rush from my perspective. I agreed that I didn't think what I wanted would change with D, but I also thought that the D process would be difficult on everyone in the family and seemed like an unnecessary step at this time if reconciliation was still an option.
At the end, I told her if the notice was left in play, I would eventually hire an attorney, and would do so by Nov.
The entire discussion was very calm and I think she felt freed by it all in a certain way. I honestly believe she's going to leave it scheduled until she truly decides how to proceed, and if she doesn't eventually decide, then we'll probably start the process in Jan. All in all, it doesn't really change anything for me...I'm trying to focus on making each day as good as it can be, regardless of what's going on, and that is working pretty well.
Breakdown, I'm truly floored by how well you handled this turn of events... I only hope to get to that place someday, to be so zen and calm about big things... right now I can't even sit through a soccer game when my H is dismissive...
January is still a very long ways off. I hope she changes her mind, but this just shows she's still got some ambivalence, which is unfortunate. Hang in there.
Hi breakdown...you are amazing with your strength and perseverance. I am learning so much from you.
Take care breakdown ((( )))
Thanks guys...for the support and the hugs
.
So far, we've had a truly amazing weekend. Friday we had massages, went for sushi, then checked into our hotel and went to a concert. Sat morning we come home, clean the house, hang out a few hours, then go to my B's b-day party. We had a bump with the S18 doing some things he shouldn't, but W and I have been on the same page and enjoyed a solid weekend. We're struggling a bit with S18, but we'll get thru and the fact that we're on the same page is good.
I will say, trying to focus on the day, the moment, that really helps me get thru. I haven't worried about the papers...I have worried about enjoying our dinner, enjoying our concert, enjoying our time together. It's really been awesome and I truly feel blessed. I have tried to think about the moments more and more, and sometimes I'm actually overwhelmed....hoping to have more and more of that.
A little bit of journaling:
W was out of town for 2 days this week. She booked at the last minute, and got a king bed, which I found extremely odd (she was supposedly sharing the room with a lady from work). There was very little communication during her absence.
All in all, I really struggled with negative thoughts while she was gone. Things have been going extremely well, but all of a sudden, all my thoughts were of the negatives. This was probably my biggest test since she's been back home and while I didn't bug her, didn't accuse her, didn't really even ask her anything, I still felt crappy.
When W got home yesterday, we did sit down for a few minutes and talk about my feelings and how we both have a lot of trust issues to work on. I took a risk of rocking the boat a little here and said we really need to start making some efforts to rebuild trust, on both sides. There has been some small things, but there are also quite a few things in the other direction. To my surprise, W was very open to it, agreed, and explained and apologized for not communicating more.
W also told me that she saw OM at the convention as well as another guy that she's spent some inappropriate time with. I really wish she would have told me this was likely before she left (cause I already assumed that she would see OM there), but the fact that she opened up about it was progress.
I try not to worry about the D papers and Jan date, but sometimes it weighs on me.
With all that said, this morning W asked me if I wanted to go somewhere and watch the baseball game this afternoon, which was cool. I was kinda thinking the same thing, so I'll just reset my brain to focus on the moments and enjoy them as much as possible.
What exactly is "inappropriate time?" Is that her definition or yours?
Glad you were able to work through your fears... I think being able to communicate and resolve conflicts is most of the battle. This is especially good for you in particular, since I gather that it was not easy for you to talk to W in this kind of way in the past. I am sure she recognizes this change in you.
What is going on with your court date? I assume nothing has changed regarding that...
What exactly is "inappropriate time?" Is that her definition or yours?
It's in my thread...the fight that happened the day she moved out. Basically she got drunk at a lunch meeting with 2 guys she's working with and the discussion turned into some less than appropriate topics. It's my definition, but I think most people would agree that it was out of bounds.
With that said, I'm not really worried about either of those guys, but she is sensitive to how I feel/felt about the incident, so that is good in itself.
She has surprised me a couple of times in positive ways since we discussed building trust, and it's really been pretty awesome. In so many ways she seems like the woman I married again.
To top it off, the sermon at church this morning was all about forgiveness and man did that hit home. It was like our pastor was talking directly to us.
What is going on with your court date? I assume nothing has changed regarding that...
Nothing new that I know of. I think that I will call this coming week and find out exactly what has happened. I was hoping that if it was a mistake, W would fix it and just let me know. But honestly, I think even if it was an error somehow, she'll leave it out there because removing it means making a decision, and I don't think she's ready to do that yet.
Still, things seem to be going really well. I mentioned before that I may start "applying some slight pressure" in terms of DBing, such as saying ILU occasionally and see how she responds.
Journaling:
Not much to report. We seem to be stuck in that happy limbo I've described. I'm really pretty happy for the most part. W is wanting to spend a lot of time with me and we're doing something either together or with kids almost every day. It's to the point where I want to pull back a little and focus a little on some "me" things.
We had a little bump the other day where W came home from a friend's little tipsy. I had spent a good amount of time making a nice dinner and W just came in and started chasing the kids around. At the end of the night, I felt like I'd wasted my time on dinner, as I was expecting some quiet time for the two of us and instead got the opposite (and this is how expectations get you!). The next morning, I mentioned to W that I was a little irritated about it and then I got the "Do you know why I filed for D?"
One thing she said made total sense...."I filed because I was always worried about someone else's feelings instead of my own." I think this is telling. W definitely worries about everyone else and how they feel and I think with me, she got lost in it. Finding her way back is evidently going to be a long road.
With all that said, she did say she had called the courthouse about our "pre-conference date" to find out what happened, and they told her they were sorry but she could cancel it at any time....but she did not cancel it as far as I know.
We're planning an afternoon Friday...massages and sushi and then I'm going to see if she'll go to the retrouv post session on forgiveness with me Sat, so some good things coming up. As I said earlier, if this is limbo, I'll take it!
I lost these bootcamp threads with they moved over here.
Nothing to add right now but I'll be following along.
Change how you think, change how you think about yourself, and you easily change the results in your life.
This is GOLD. It might need to go on my mirror so I see it everyday and work to live it every day.
Hey labug...thanks for dropping in.
Journal:
I feel like my W and I have made great progress in our M, but she doesn't seem to actually want to do any of the heavy lifting. Day to day interactions are pretty much awesome, but we don't seem to be doing anything about the issues.
In our retrouv post session on commitment and forgiveness last week, she basically said she didn't think she could forgive me and was worried that if she did, things wouldn't change. So while it seems as though everything is great, clearly it is not.
Last night she asked me to go grab a bite to eat while the kids did the candy run and we had a pretty good time initially. At one point she starts telling me how OM bought a jaguar and his "stupid wife" wrecked it the same day. Even though a couple months ago I told her directly that I wouldn't be in a M with OM involved in it, she continues to talk to him, text him, and even better, tell me about him. She's got some business dealings with him, so some of it is reasonable, but he did some work for us and basically cost us six figures so even without her EA with him, I'm not a fan of his. Hearing about his new jag set me off and I basically told her he screwed us and pretty much everyone else he's worked for.
As you might guess, this has been a sore spot for us, and a recurring discussion that leads to no where. On one hand, I should have known better than to even venture into the discussion, but on the other, it's almost like she throws it in my face continually and I'm just supposed to grin and bear it (which I have been doing for the most part).
She didn't really say much during this point of the discussion honestly, but after I said my peace, she did tell me how much damage I just did to our relationship and how she would file for D (yes, again!). At this point I simply said fine and asked her to lower the listing price of our house (which she did, which was surprising).
I've spent a lot of time thinking about this today and I'm at a loss. The money we lost thru this process was "OUR" money. She seems to give him a pass on it. That said, she's free to have her opinion and I mine. What I don't understand is, I was bagging on OM and she got upset enough to tell me we're getting D again. Clearly I'm missing something.
- Perhaps it's the same old argument made her feel like it was the same old me?
- Maybe she felt like I was blaming her for our loss?
- Maybe she thought I was trying to force her to share my opinion?
I dunno, but I am hoping she'll be willing to tell me later this evening.
I feel a bit depressed about the whole thing honestly. I'm tired of putting up with the OM situation. I'm tired of being threatened with D every time we don't agree on something. I'm tired of feeling that my feelings don't count.
One thing I did realize is that I have a lot of resentment about this financial loss and I really need to do some forgiving so I can let go of it. I hadn't realized how tightly I was holding on to it until I spoke my mind.
Don't touch the hot stove....
ouch
Don't touch the hot stove....
ouch
Don't touch the hot stove....
Or I will tell you to not touch it again.....
Why do you think that you do that ????
Fear of losing her ?
Once again...what was your boundary here ?
Even though a couple months ago I told her directly that I wouldn't be in a M with OM involved in it, she continues to talk to him, text him, and even better, tell me about him
Tough stuff Breakdown. To me it sounds like your wife is doing a bit of cake eating. I can see a lot of me in her, in what you say about her behavior. She sounds like she's can be a little selfish, and that she holds the threat of a D over your head to "keep you in line". She can pull that ace out of her sleeve whenever she wants. One reason why I told my H to just go and get a D was so that he couldn't do that to me anymore.
The drinking thing is a little concerning too. This is also something I used to do when I was working. OM2 was a big drinker (problem avoider) so he would always try to get me to go drinking with him, an offer I cautiously accepted a time or two. It was fun, he made me feel good, I felt like I was in college again. In fact, the night that the S hit the fan, I had been drinking and I was actually at my college reunion. So I bet there is a bit of that "pining for lost youth" going on with her. She probably enjoys being the center of attention when she is with those men.
I do not think she will go through with the D. She seems to want to be with you and work things out, though it appears that she's still seeking or yearning or feels incomplete somehow. If you could find a way to get to the bottom of this with her, she might open up to you. She might not be aware of any of this btw.
I'm glad we can be there for each other to help interpret our respective spouse's behavior!!
Mach, you're right on the boundaries. I need to revisit that.
Regret, I appreciate your insight as well.
I think it's probably time to check in with my DB coach again too. I'm feeling a little lost in terms of what I should be doing here.
Journal:
We had a decent discussion this morning about it all, and agreed to talk more later. She told me the reason she got so upset was because I showed her who I used to be and it just reinforced her belief that people are who they are.
She said quite a few things that made sense, and I agreed with. Other things were a little more cryptic like she's never going to be able to truly be herself unless we are divorced and she feels that my "not controlling her" was a way to control her and even "someone else will make me more happy long term."
"someone else will make me more happy long term."
I should have written that a bit different. She was saying that about me, not herself. It was kinda one of those "you deserve better" lines.
"you deserve better" is such a cop out IMO... I think your wife is having a bit of a MLC to tell you the truth...
"you deserve better" is such a cop out IMO... I think your wife is having a bit of a MLC to tell you the truth...
Completely agree on both counts.
hi breakdown,
i was reading your thread and noticed the stuff about being controlling.
MWD had a great post on her fb page about that:
People often accuse their partners of being "controlling." Some people ARE controlling. However, show me a marriage where one spouse is considered controlling and I will show you a marriage where the other spouse often fails to take a strong stand on things that are important to him or her OR simply stuffs feelings inside so the "controlling" spouse remains in the dark. If someone is in the dark about their partners' true feelings, they can't take those feelings into account. If you have a "controlling spouse," learn how to stand your ground or draw a line in the sand. Divorce doesn't solve the problem. Working on it does. - Michele Weiner-Davis (via @ Divorce Busting)
I wish I had understood that a long time ago.
All the best to you, breakdown.
Thanks Needgrace! That is an awesome snip-it!
Roller coaster continues.
We booked a cruise for the family for December. I was worried about the expense, but W really wanted to do it and indicated she had some things in the works that would cover it so I agreed.
Last night I went out with my B for a late lunch and I ended up in a foul mood. I started worrying about some things and my anxiety level just got high. I snapped at my W when she got home, but apologized multiple times and tried to explain why I was in a bad mood. Discussion eventually turned into a relationship discussion, and it ended with both of us angry.
As I rehash the discussion in my head, we seem to go round and round about the same couple of things without any progress:
- my poor behavior for the first part of our M (honestly, this can go on and on with different details each time, but ultimately it's the same discussion with me simply agreeing)
- W's unwillingness to forgive me and her continued resentment for said behaviors (ultimately, that's her decision and she has to live with it)
- W's lack of any responsibility for anything negative in the M (again, I don't have to like it, but this is on W)
- me wanting a commitment to try to work thru issues without constant threat of D (W simply says she's not willing at this time)
So this brings me to the need for commitment. Is this my insecurity rearing it's head? I think it is...along with my need to "fix it." So there I have it...old issues resurfaced resulting in a crappy discussion with W.
I just want to say that you are absolutely entitled to your need for commitment. We need that in our R's - we need to feel safe, we need to feel that the person that we are investing in is doing so in return. If we don't feel that reciprocal commitment, it can be really disheartening. I think we can all stand a little limbo for a while, but you've been at it for some time now, and that must be getting old. It isn't insecurity. Marriage is based on a commitment and you have every right to want to know exactly where you stand.
I know that putting aside the R discussions helped (for a while) in my sitch. But your W clearly hasn't been able to work things through on her side enough to forgive your sins of the past. I fear the same in my M... that my H will not ever be able to forgive my past sins.
I wonder if you trying to get to a more detached place will be of value to you. You have done tremendous work. You have been diligently working to resolve your own issues and to put your M at the center of your life. This isn't to be taken lightly and if she says it's not enough, then I think you have some hard thinking to do. Because from what I've seen, you've made incredible progress and are doing as much as you can to create a better M going forward.
You can't change the past. She can't change the past. All you can do is create an environment so that you don't repeat the mistakes of the past. And you can apologize for the mistakes of the past and promise to do better. It is truly on her if she can't accept that.
Thanks Regret. I truly appreciate the support and words of encouragement.
I just want to say that you are absolutely entitled to your need for commitment. We need that in our R's - we need to feel safe, we need to feel that the person that we are investing in is doing so in return. If we don't feel that reciprocal commitment, it can be really disheartening. I think we can all stand a little limbo for a while, but you've been at it for some time now, and that must be getting old. It isn't insecurity. Marriage is based on a commitment and you have every right to want to know exactly where you stand.
I agree, and this was my first thought, but I think I was hiding my insecurity behind it. When I focus on living for the now, enjoying every moment, my life has been pretty awesome. W may say she isn't ready to re-commit, but when it's as good as it has been, who cares. The more I push for commitment, the more she runs from it so I have to let it go unless it's a deal breaker for me right now.
You can't change the past. She can't change the past. All you can do is create an environment so that you don't repeat the mistakes of the past. And you can apologize for the mistakes of the past and promise to do better. It is truly on her if she can't accept that.
Totally agree, and have tried to explain as much. Retrouvaille said the same thing. I even turned this one around on my W last night. She wants to let this whole financial thing with OM go because "it's done and we can't do anything to change it now." So I said, and how is that different from all the things you are still mad at me about? She didn't have an answer, and I really hope she thinks on it.
All that said, I did apologize to W via text this morning and told her I thought my insecurity won out the best of me yesterday....whether it be about our financials, our M, our car, or whatever. For the first time ever, she told me "forgiven." I was in shock. She even said she was anxious and quick to anger last night too. So an apology and taking some responsibility....promising.
Time for some P90X with my kiddos and some ab work! That cruise is around the corner and I'm gonna look damn good for it!
Journaling:
I'm struggling a bit today. Yesterday W went to work and left her email up on my computer. After months of not snooping, I looked at her draft folder....I'm not sure why, but I am always interested in the drafts. Of course, something in the drafts looked incriminating so I continued digging.
Unfortunately, and this is half the reason snooping is so bad for you, I found some emails to OM talking of running off to New Orleans for mardi gras in Jan and some other emails asking him "what can I have?", "is everything monitored?" and "you know what and who you want." I assume OM's W is checking all his communications as she had previously separated from him because of his R with my W.
Previously, I had kinda figured OM decided to work on his own M and my W pursued, and that's kinda what the emails seem to indicate. This was all 6-8 weeks ago, but she is still sending him texts and emails regularly that aren't work related. Nothing incriminating, but it seems now that there's "monitoring" everything is a bit cryptic.
That fight we got a couple of weeks were I was bad mouthing OM, makes more sense now as I think she's probably mourning the relationship. She even sent him an email that night comparing how she felt to an episiotomy (see what I mean about cryptic?).
I also found something related to our financials that looks like she may be hiding money from me, so that's worrisome too.
When W returned home, she could see that I was upset and asked me about it. After repeatedly being asked about it, I did say I was upset, but didn't want to discuss it. She continued to press and asked why I didn't want to talk about it. At this point I said "You're a liar, and I don't want to talk about it because you'll just tell me more lies, and I'm not willing to go down that path."
I had an outing with some friends last night and spent the night. When I got home this morning she asked me if I wanted to talk about it yet and if I was still mad. I simply said, no, I don't want to discuss it right now and "mad" doesn't come close to describing what I'm feeling.
So here I am....lost about what to do, where to go, and how to react. On one hand, I really want to say "I will not stay in this M and continue to pretend everything's fine. No contact with OM is mandatory for me to move forward."
On the other hand, my DB coach basically told me to not worry about OM and continue to enjoy our time together (which is what I have been doing for a few months now with great success).
I want my M to work and I was willing to do anything to keep it together. But now, I realize that I'm not willing to sacrifice my values and my feelings for eternity to stay in this.
Ramblings:
I've pulled back quite a bit in the last few days. There isn't any tension, and we're still functioning as a family just fine. I haven't been spending the evenings with W and have pretty much cut off anything physical for the time being.
I'm trying to schedule another DB Coaching session to get some advice on the OM situation. I think she'll probably say the same thing, but I guess I need the pep talk to feel right about it.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about W's R with OM and some of the things she's said to me. It's a bit of mind reading, but it does help me see her perspective. Comments about "I don't think I can love you the way you deserve" and "someone new will love you differently." I think that she's comparing how she felt with OM to how she feels about me, and honestly, I can see how she might feel that way. Since she never did run off with OM, she only really experienced that initial "this is awesome" part of the relationship. I think her fantasy of what her R with OM was like is still there and our M gets compared to it.
It also makes sense that me talking bad about OM would upset her, as she's still mourning that R.
Last night I was thinking about what I thought a good M would look like, and I ended up going back to the foundations we discussed in retrouv....love, trust, commitment, & forgiveness. This stings because of these, we really only have love. We don't trust each other, and W refuses to commit to our M and refuses to forgive me for anything I've done. So I ask myself, how can our M ever recover?
SS told Regret today:
Your H knows you are there if he wants you. He doesn't have to work on it.
That's kinda hit me in the stomach. My W knows I'll always be here, she knows I want our M to work more than anything. So why would she stop talking to OM? Why would she commit to our M?
Oh, one positive I forgot to mention:
I think I mentioned that a couple of weeks ago we went to my nephew's (W's side) b-day party. My W's entire family ignored me. My MIL's live in BF of 12 years went so far as to be rude.
I've been conflicted about it, because on one hand, I don't want to allow them to control what I think I should do, but on the other, I don't know why I should subject myself to that.
I was talking to W yesterday and she said she got our niece's bday present for this weekend, but she was just going to drop it off and not go to the party this time because of how they treated me. This is really a 180 for her....normally she'd just take the kids and leave me. So this is immensely positive in my mind.
So I guess to that point, maybe I haven't given the current state enough time....patience.
Well, we did have the talk last night. I wanted to get my coaching in first, but I was impatient....bad choice.
Ultimately, W did agree that it was disrespectful for her to continue her R with OM and said something to the effect that it was difficult to just let him go completely. She also said she didn't really care about my feelings and reiterated that when she said she wanted D, she was and still is mentally done with our M.
There was some productive topics in there, but she she reiterated she wanted D multiple times and in all honestly, I pushed her a few times when I shouldn't have. We've all read that you don't give ultimatums unless you are willing to live with the consequences.
At the end, I asked if we could agree to be honest and respectful of each other until we were indeed divorced, and she agreed. As part of that, I asked that she not talk about OM at our home, nor continue to socially communicate with him at home. She agreed.
To get agreement that talking to OM is disrespectful and won't occur in our house sounds like movement in the right direction....but then she went and got D papers this morning and brought them home for signature, so my impatience has appeared to implode all the progress made to date. She hasn't actually given them to me yet, but I'm sure she will this afternoon when she gets home.
My DB coaching is tomorrow morning, so hopefully some good advice will come out of that. As much progress as I've made on myself, I still seem to be falling short when it counts. I'm really sad right now....it is tough to not feel like a failure. I know the war's not over, but I definitely lost this battle.
And with that, I think I'm moving to a new chapter so I'm going to close out this thread and start a new one in the newcomers section.
Big thanks to Mach1 for all the help he provided during this, the beginning of my self discovery journey, as well as everyone else who has commented on my thread and given advice. I feel like a much better person now than when I started, but I realize there's still a long road to travel.
Hey BD....
Just back away and take some time now, to let the dust settle down.
Nothing has to happen quickly, and nothing is going to change overnight.
You have come a long way, and although you feel as though you still have a long way to go, you will get there, in time.
Take what you have learned, and apply it towards your life, and the things that you want out of life.
Remember that list of qualities that you made ?
Show those to the world everyday, regardless of what adversity you may be facing. Do it, not because you are trying to induce a reaction, do it regardless of the reaction.
Nothing is ever really over until you make the choice for it to be over. Do what is right for you and your children, and let the rest, fall where it may.
YOU will be fine, no matter what you face.
Because you know you now.
The world isn't always Black and White....
Learn to see the gray...
Thanks Mach1. You seem to pop in just at the right times. Great advice as always
I had a good coaching session and came up with a plan of action going forward for the next few months. I'm back to "enjoy every moment" but I've drawn a boundary with regards to OM and if W steps on it, I will call her out on it.
I honestly expect the next few months to be the best of my M, regardless of whether W continues down the path of D or not. If she feels like she needs D to feel free, or to be herself, or whatever, I will support her, but that doesn't change who I am, or who I want to be.
This topic is being locked due to length. The forums runs more smoothly when threads are not so long.
Please begin a new thread if you would like to continue the discussion.
moved to Newcomers forum 5/25/17