I am new to this site and look forward to sharing and growing with you. First off, I believe I have some valuable insight to offer: I have been in both positions of this ugly situation. Let me explain both scenarios...
(scenario 1)
We have been married 4 years and have 2 little girls. We weren't prefect, but man when the times were good they were soo good. (fast forwarding to the fall out) My H started being just so mean and cruel and once our lease was up, I got my own place. I knew he wanted me back, he told me, text me, called me, everything. I had no respect for him and treated him like crap, but he just kept on loving me. He would come over and make love to me whenever I wanted him to. I gave him just enough attention to keep my foot in the door. (I'm just being honest) I knew in my heart that I loved him, but I didn’t open my heart to him for several reasons
1) I wasn't forced to, he made it so easy just to enjoy him and then push him aside
2) his behavior let me have my cake and eat it too
3) I was selfishly enjoying all the desperate attempts he was making
That started in January. And you know what happened? By March he opened his heart to another woman. Granted she was married and was his boss, but he did it. That man did a 180 on me and omg it stung!!! Man it works, I'm telling you! He went from being my slave to please me to focusing on his own life and moving on. That got my attention so fast and it hurt. Before this I was so intent on moving forward with my life, I had even had several relationships during this time. For those of you who are intimidated by the "other" in your spouse's life, let me tell you this...
I was so sure that I could not spend another minute with my husband. I forgot everything good and focused on the bad. I rekindled a relationship from before hubby and I were married, and I fell back in love with this other man (Mark). I bragged about us to hubby all the time, but mostly as a way to hurt him and make him jealous. Mark and I even had matching tattoos that we designed together. It didn’t feel perfect, and we had our fights. I knew I was going to miss the person I was when I was with hubby, but I pushed it aside. I just focused on the newness of Mark and all of the exciting butterflies. But as soon as hubby did a 180, I dropped Mark like a hot coal. I even emailed Mark, telling him that I loved my hubby and also sent it to my hubby. So trust me guys, that "significant other", no matter how sure they seem, is really just a Band-Aid and a mental distraction. So now let's get to scenario #2....
(Scenario #2)
How funny life is that we have switched places. He is still so serious about his relationship with his OW (other woman). They are living as if they are married. (Her husband is in another state) My children's car seats are in her car, her stuff is in his shower, she loves him so much, blah blah blah..... sounds like what I had been saying months earlier. Him doing his 180 literally made me fall back in love with him. Where I had reasons to leave I now only have reasons to stay. Damn-it, love is tough, and so am I.
Reading DR helped tremendously, as well as reflecting on scenario #1. I have complete faith in my marriage, and appreciate this journey. If it weren't for this craziness I would not have fallen so in love with my husband, and I fully anticipate the same happening with him. If you look at people who have been married 50+ years, they will all tell you of hardships they have overcome. This is the stuff that strengthens marriages, not breaks them. Don't you dare listen to anyone who would tell you otherwise~just feel empathy that they are not as strong as you are.
In case anyone is wondering what I have been doing to handle scenario #2, here's a breakdown...
March 4th -walked in him & OW, flipped out and went psycho. BAD MOVE
March 16 -had sex together. who knew? But felt used afterwards
March 27 -sex again, yup, feeling desperate
April 1st -he is complementing and loving towards me
April 3rd -sent open heart email
April 4th -good phone call, did the letter work???
April 5th -it worked! Most amazing love making ever!!!
April 6th -yeah, didn't work. Saw them in the car together. Feel disgusted
Weeks go by, I'm not changing. Still crying, pleading, feeding his ego...
May 12 -went a while without contacting him. We meet and have sex. Man I gotta stop doing this! Lol
May 12 -he is aware that I'm moving forward with my life, have made some major personal changes
Decided no more "have your cake and eat it too" sex, no more reaching out and contacting him. Started 180
May 16 -he calls for no random reason. I'm happy and keep it short, end it first
May 20 -he texts me to say he's glad to see me so happy and is proud of me
May 20 -ok, he actually sent me several "small step" encouraging texts"
May 24 -calls me for something that didn’t deserve a phone call. Honestly think he just wanted to talk. I Kept it short.
May 24 -I contact him needing the girl's SSN for the divorce paperwork. Possible bad move, pissed him off! Lol but if he's so happy why would he push against the divorce? Um can't have your cake and eat it too buddy, I'm moving on with or without you...(no, I didn't say it, just thought it)
May 27 -he initiats text messgaes and calls me "wifey"
May 28 -our 4 yr anniversary. Pretending as if it's just another day...
So here we are. Thanks for sticking with me! Hopefully it gave some of you insight. But here's the thing, even learning from my OWN mistakes I still struggle! I feel like I have been perpetuating this scenario and just feel weighed down. Trust me, I'm doing all the right things...not contacting him, living my own life, being positive, yada yada yada. But wow this is hard. He's still with his MARRIED boss and not making and real change.
I got the paperwork ready yesterday and I'm filing this week. I know, I believe in us so much, but I just can't live like this anymore. After walking through all of this mess, I have realized how great of a person I am and that at 31, I am ready for something SO REAL. This isn't real, it's a game. Perhaps this will push him out of his comfort zone, but I'm moving on with life, with or without him. (with would be great though)
I wish that worked on my wife...
Jamie are u in counseling? I think u need to be ASAP. Do u want to save the M? Why did u initially want out of the M? Post often
Jamie, are there any signs or signals that would indicate to me that my wifes signifigant other is really a band-aid?
So I don't get it. Are you trying to save your marriage or not?
So I saw your previous post about how you weren't sure what to do.
This really jumped out at me:
but my mind is flip flopping.
All of your posts seem very frantic and upset. That's perfectly normal. I understand how you feel because I was there. I was a WAW as well and then a few months later he found someone that he was very happy moving on with.
They say Believe none of what they say and half of what they do. So all his calling you wifey no matter what he says or texts....the facts are he is still in a R with someone else and there were valid reasons you left the marriage.
You can a) let your anger validate you into filing for divorce and leaving the sitch for good
b) continue to pursue him putting up with whatever crumbs he may give you
or
C) decide that this time is a gift like Cadet says. Be still center yourself, decide what it is you want in a R whether with him or someone else. What you have done to contribute to the breakdown to the M, work on yourself and work on a functioning R with H because you will be in each other's lives forever with the kids.
The truth is there is no quick fix and just because it worked for someone else doesn't mean it will work for you. If you are committed to doing everything you can to have a better M in the future whether that's with H or someone else, then you need to stick to one thread, post often, answer everyone's questions because they are here to help you self analyze and they will tell you when your thoughts are helpful or harmful. If no one is answering then post just to journal and vent put it all here, not in letter or texts to your ex.
Look through the archives and read others who are going through the same thing.
Set boundaries that will keep you emotionally and mentally safe.
Do you want to save your marriage or do you want to punish him for having a relationship?
As a WAW I had to sit down with myself and understand that I was being selfish in wanting all of this to happen on my timeline. To want space when I wanted it and want the R when I wanted it.
We think that by cutting the spouse out of our life it will end the pain. It won't. you have to make yourself happy, you have to heal the hurts with in. It takes patience and time and work. Do you want to do that?
that's a beautifull post brit - everything is there - all the elements.
thanks
jg - take heed - you're getting good advice here
zig
Does adding other people into the mix really help and encorage the WAS to reconsider. I am new to this but for me if I found out she was starting another relationship that would be all I need to file divorce papers. I know easier said than done;-)
Honestly, any time someone jumps right into another relationship, it's a band aid. No one like to be alone, letts be honest.
The grass is always greener on the other side because you don't have to mow it. When I say that I mean the other R is all fuzzy feelings without the care it takes to foster something real. Real life is about the chores, waking up early, paying bills, stuff like that.
EA/PA are a selfish way of getting the bright thick green grass without having to mulch it or anything. And as time goes by, well, you realize it's so bright and green because it's FAKE grass. It's fun and rewarding to take care of your lawn. That's why I think Michelle says most A only last about 6 months or so.
Mr Bond,
I have been quietly losing my mind, lol. Actualy, I'm at a happier place now. But to answer your question, I'll rephrase it.
Do I love my husband? YES
Do I believe in M? YES
Do I want this sitch for my family? NO
But have I grown from it? HELL YES
Will I accept the old relationship? NEVER AGAIN
If he is willing to grow, will I grow with him? YOU KNOW IT
*but it has to come from his heart, untill then, I'm working on me*
I started 2 other threads so I'm going to move them over here...
Hubby turned into the was 4 months ago. I did all of the major no nos until finding db. My going dark and doing 180s showed promising results. he would text and compliment me on my life changes and call me "his worry".
The Deal is that he is still having an ps with his married boss, he had not changed anything and our 2 year old girls still go back and forth every week. His life is so comfortable that he won't change. A few months ago he admitted he lives me and is confused. Well I'm not and I'm not tolerating this anymore.
Don't go throwing stones, but I'm filling. I have everything ready, and next Tuesday, when they are with daddy, I'm doing it. I even have my text ready (have not initiated contact since going dark a month ago). Anyhow, my text will read "I have learned and grown so much that I can no longer stay in this relationship the way that it is. I filed for divorce today. I just wanted to give you a heads up that you will be served your papers in the next few days". Then I'm going dark again.
And the thing is, it's the truth. I'm not perfect, but I know what I want. My girls and I deserve the same. It is a true 180 because I have always told him how much I love him, care...you know the speech. I'm not living the rest of my life crying every day.
I figure if he's going to continue his pa, it's going to happen whether I make myself a victim or start moving on. I really really hope this wakes him up. Either way, this is the beginning of the new, happier, healthier me.
I will be sure to update!
Why isn't there a posting icon of someone crying? Just sayin....anyhow...Oh gosh guys…I don’t know if I’ve detached too much, gone too dark or what…but my mind is flip flopping. My 180s are working, but I don’t even know if I want H anymore. Has anyone else gone through this?
I was a WAW, for so many reasons. While we have been separated for 6 months we have reversed roles, leaving him having a full blown PA with his married boss. Through my DB strategies, he has come around and is texting me 3 times a week. He’s called me “wifey”, admitted to being confused and wanting his family back. Granted, that SAME night he was camping with OW and filed for D 3 days later.
Here we are 1 week later and he wants to turn our weekly child exchange into a dinner date. At first I was so excited to see my baby steps, but guys, idk anymore……I’m really thinking of just showing up to get my girls and then leaving, no dinner.
My inner dialogue is saying “he has not worked on a single thing that caused you to walk away. Why do you even want him back? For more of the same?”
I don’t guys. I can’t go back to that life. An unchanged man means an unchanged relationship. That, I just can’t do.
I’m not going to go into the details of the bad (not drugs or anything like that), because they don’t really matter. What I’m REALLY wondering is have any of you ever felt like this? Is this normal?
OK, so I have copied and pasted my other posts. In case everything gets mixed up, I'm going to give a quick break down to bring you up to speed...
May-went dark, internaly frantic as Brit noticed. I think I cried every day and would just pray to God for peace
May-ironicly going dark is pulling him back, 180s are working, and I'm torn between my heart and my head
May-seriously GALing. I did the relay for life (huge goal of mine!), attending church, volunteering, finding and loving myself
June-H is seriously complimenting me and trying to come around. I'm still conflicted. He's flip flopping more than I am! Admits he is unhappy and wants his family back (never says me or M) and yet files for D 3 days later
This entire time I'm dark, doing 180s, completly folling the book like a pro. Didn't even get over excited when he started opening up. That was about a week ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So we are meeting today to do the D2,D3 swap. H, thinking I will be downtown at night (huge 180) has turned this swap into sort of a date thing. Text convo:
H- that's far, how about meeting at Mc Donald's off of Nevada?
M- sounds great, I'll meet you there around 7:30 (ending text convo)
H- (starting text convo)Maybee you culd get some hamburgers while you're there
M- lol, ok
H- for real??
M- who says no to a hamburger?
H- ;)can't wait
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
so then later I was having second thoughts, my mind was screaming NO!!! This man has not changed. Remember, I was the WAS, and for good reasons. Thank goodness I never contacted him. Mind you, I just got served my D papers a few days ago! For some reason it doesn't scare me that he filled. Hell, he saved me time and $. I owe him a thank you (but won't, lol). I'm not even bring it up that he filled. Acting like it doesn't phas me, bc really it doesnt.
Yesterday afternoon, still conflicted, I went out and treated myself. I got a new beautiful maxi dress and got my hair cut. Not for him, but for ME. Granted, OW is not girly, and I know he misses that factor. But it was for me, because I deserve it.
Granted, I will be wearing it when I see him tonight. But I (honestly) found myself again. I am that beautiful happy girl he asked to marry. Perhaps it will wake him up, but being me again is for me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Holly hell guys, I have gone through so many emotions. feeling bi polar reading my posts? lol. I thought I was but my T said it's normal, it's my heart fighting with my head, which has been so obvious.
So what's the plan? Love the hell out of myself. H has a lot of maturing and growing to do, and I'm not getting in the way of that. If it causes him to grow into a man that wants to be my husband, awesome. If not, D2 and D3 have pretty awesome parents who are still comitted to working together to co parent and love them.
I see it as a win-win no matter how this thing turns out. I'm showing up tonight as my beautiful, happy serene self. No pressure, it will be just like seeing an old childhood neighbor.
Sry this was so long! But you hung in there, lol
will update tomorrow and let you know how it went <3
"As a WAW I had to sit down with myself and understand that I was being selfish in wanting all of this to happen on my timeline. To want space when I wanted it and want the R when I wanted it."
BRIT-so true
So I showed up like I said I would, things didn't go as planned. He just gave me the girls, told me how beautiful I looked and then proceeded to Bragg about his day with ow. Not sure why he would plan a date and then act like that, perhaps to try and bust my 180 of going dark.
I held my own and followed all the rules.
Normally we don't see each other to switch the children, we just assume the job of picking them up from daycare. while I have been dark he had been coming over with his friend to drop them off. I'm ending that.
I'm going so dark he couldn't find me with night vision. I'm blocking his number when I have the girls. I will unblock it when he has them but will not answer my phone. He seems to be grasping for anyway he can to hurt me. Or perhaps I'm being self centered and taking his flip flopping personally.
I've got to pull waaaaay back and continue to focus on myself here. You could say I'm doing Michelles after the last resort technique. She warns that it could end the marriage, but hell, he already filled a few days ago.
I held my 3 year old tonight while she slept and I cried. I told her I was sorry that I could not give her a "normal" family, and admitted to my part in it. I then promised her that I would give her what I could the best Mommy I could be. I promised to be as mature as possible in this situation.
I know it's ok to be divorced and the M can end and my girls can still be happy, it was just something I wanted to tell her.
I've continued to flip flop, I know. Right now I'm letting go, honestly. Maybe ow is the one for him. I wish him the best.
Hi jg333, I just wanted to bump your thread here in newcomers.
While I'm addressing your thread in the "I'm thinking about leaving" forum, use this thread for general support and help. This forum gets much more activity.
Keep posting here, journal and ask any questions you feel you need to clarify how you might work on yourself to change the sitch and possibly save your M.
Kaffe I don't even know if it's possible. He filled 4 June 2012. Think I might hadn't blown it. He opened up to me and let me know he wasn't happy, but was scared. He could not commit to me but could commit to sex...? And spent the weekend with ow. He was doing more of the same, Keeling one foot in each door.
My 180 meant standing up to him, lovingly, and telling him no. I thanked him for his openness the next day, but told him I felt he was just having a bad day. I was honest and told him I was going to file on Monday (the 4th). He best me to it and I was served the next day.
A few days later he turned our child exchange into a date. I showed up and it was obvious he had no intention of following through with the date part. He bragged about weekend with ow and left. No communication since.
Still dark, gal...but it's for me. I done know what hope there is for us.
We say here that "it ain't over, til it's over." You may have heard that saying before, but there truth of that statement only hits us after a good amount of time has passed.
We DB regardless of what happens to the M. DBing helps us get a handle on where we went "wrong" in the M, to help us become better people less likely to repeat those mistakes...
It's still a good idea to work through things.
And we are also here to support you, whether you are angry, sad, or otherwise.
Just something to start you off and point out, when you had that conversation with your H, notice how you told him you felt he was having a bad day (your suspicion of WHY he was behaving a certain way).
While you may have been right, that is a dangerous thing to say (never mind to start it off by thinking it). He may have been having a GREAT day.
So what would have been another option was simply to thank him for his openness... and leave it at that...
As I said, keep posting. Use this as a journal if you need or would like.
Again, others will come along and start engaging with you and your thread.
Kafe,
I had never though of that...what IF he had been having a great day?
Odd how despite any barriers he puts up, he never hours more than a few days without contacting me for some reason. That is one positive. When he does make contact, I am never rude. Feeling matching is an old habit I have finally let go of.
It doesn't matter how nasty he gets, I will not base my reactions or quality of life on them. I don't even bring them up. I never even brought up the divorce papers I was served, and I don't ever see a need to.
I am committing to DB, but not with the intent of saving my marriage. I like the person I am becoming and DB techniques are a great life skill. I see every interaction with h as an opportunity to sharpen those skills.
One thing I am aware of is that while I know how to behave right now, I am unprepared as of how to act should he open up again. Thanking him for his openness is a start...
He said he tried to come back to me, which I guess in his eyes is true. Mind you it was after I walked in on him and ow. He wanted back out of fear, not add a man who had done some soul searching that left him with a new commitment to his m. As much as I love him I can not be in a relationship with the man that he is right now. The man I will come back to is:
1. Rrspectful of women. Does not take them for granted or use them add a distraction from reality of the sitch
2. Not having any inappropriate contact with ow, who happens to be his boss (till Nov, when he gets out of the army)
3.willing to commit to the m and can openly honestly communicate
What am I doing to help foster these changes?
1.not allowing myself to be one of the women he disrespects
2.being patient
3.non reactive to his behaviors
I think that stuff might get dissected and thrown everywhere, but in that case I need it. One thing I know I need is advice on what to do should he open up again. I feel it's inevitable and don't want to do anything destructive.
One more thing..any thoughts about when h throws his fun new life in my face? I never react just thought I'd ask if anyone had insight add to of why and the best way to react.
Kafe,
I had never though of that...what IF he had been having a great day?
Odd how despite any barriers he puts up, he never hours more than a few days without contacting me for some reason. That is one positive. When he does make contact, I am never rude. Feeling matching is an old habit I have finally let go of.
It doesn't matter how nasty he gets, I will not base my reactions or quality of life on them. I don't even bring them up. I never even brought up the divorce papers I was served, and I don't ever see a need to.
Agreed. What's to say if you have lawyers to say it for you? And I believe in using the L's as shields so if he brings up a financial/legal matter you then "defer" to the L's to "let them work it out." I assume you have one, right?
Anytime there are assets OR CHILDREN you'd be nuts not to have representation...
I am committing to DB, but not with the intent of saving my marriage. I like the person I am becoming and DB techniques are a great life skill. I see every interaction with h as an opportunity to sharpen those skills.
saving yourself first is, to me, the First Goal of DBing. We want to save marriages, if we can, but not at all costs...you seem to have the right attitude here.
One thing I am aware of is that while I know how to behave right now, I am unprepared as of how to act should he open up again. Thanking him for his openness is a start...
that's all you have to DO right then. You'll "need time to process that information" and trust me, you will. He could change his mind the next day or week.
You'll want a lot of certainty that he's really changed and committed to change. ONe sign of that on both your parts is whether you'd go to Retrovaille, the weekend retreat for marriages in crisis.
OW would have to be gone first but that is THEIR (ie Retrovaille's) condition to place, not yours.
He said he tried to come back to me, which I guess in his eyes is true. Mind you it was after I walked in on him and ow. He wanted back out of fear, not add a man who had done some soul searching that left him with a new commitment to his m.
How do you KNOW this^^^??
As much as I love him I can not be in a relationship with the man that he is right now. The man I will come back to is:
1. Rrspectful of women. Does not take them for granted or use them add a distraction from reality of the sitch
2. Not having any inappropriate contact with ow, who happens to be his boss (till Nov, when he gets out of the army)
3.willing to commit to the m and can openly honestly communicate
What am I doing to help foster these changes?
1.not allowing myself to be one of the women he disrespects
2.being patient
3.non reactive to his behaviors
What type of woman will you be, to earn all this? I mean, I see some things, but not enough specifics.
Can you list some specific changes you are making that make you a woman only a fool would leave?
I think that stuff might get dissected and thrown everywhere, but in that case I need it. One thing I know I need is advice on what to do should he open up again. I feel it's inevitable and don't want to do anything destructive.
Then listen to him, tell him you need time, and wait til sufficient time has passed for you to know something, either way.
It's telling that when You told him you would file to give him a heads up, then he beat you to the punch the next day. That means he probably already had a lawyer...correct?
So He's a long way from owning his stuff b/c that reeks of "gotcha" and very immature score keeping. But then, wasn't your real goal to "wake him up"?
When I filed for a sep (to protect our assets b/c my h was about to "invest" with his heroes on the tundra)....so my h's first reaction was to give himself permission to date...talk about unexpected...but time passed, and so did that...
Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth. Meaning, don't make it harder for him to come home than it already will be.
If you never saw forgiveness growing up, and I had not, it's a learned skill. What are you doing to learn how to forgive?
Regardless of whether you reconcile, letting go is crucial to YOUR well being. I think you know this and I say Kudos to you. You're a fast learner.
Decide if you really can do the forgiveness thing, b/c if you cannot forgive, which requires letting go of this, then this is a pointless time consuming endeavor.
I'm not judging you if you can't let it go. It's just too hard for some. But if it's true, then own it. Do NOT make the mistake of staying married only to stay miserable. That's a lousy legacy to leave your descendants.
My GUESS, and I make this based only on this thread, is that your h felt that it was easier to hook up w/OW than to meet your list of grievances when you were the WAW. Any truth to that?
How long was your list of what he did wrong?
Was it like climbing MT Everest? Your list ^^^ there, is very vague imo and I think men in particular want concrete steps they can take to measure their progress and a lot of feedback. I'd want specifics if I were in the running to be your mate.
What is his Love Language (I'm assuming you have read "The Five Love Languages" book, which I recommend to ALL couples.)
If it looks too hard or amorphous to meet your needs/demands,
OR if the WAS (him, now)
feels that no matter what he does, the affair will be held over his head or thrown in his face at your whim, (even if he's wrong to believe that), he won't come back.
What would happen if he feared losing you to OM? I'm only asking.
FWIW I don't see him ending up w/OW b/c she does not sound as if she will be very available to be his wife#2
Surely it'd be a much much bigger mess than he is aware of.
Seems he won't let go of one vine to grab another, like a monkey who can't choose, so he'll keep swinging...
As for "ready for sex but not a R" although I laughed when I first read it, and rolled my eyes, I also thought, "well, that might be how HE feels connected."
for MANY men, that's true. Does not make it easy or "right" but it's more understandable. He wants some connection with you for sure...
hang in there...did you read the 'Rules for Newcomers"? They may help you.
One more thing..any thoughts about when h throws his fun new life in my face?
to justify his choices to himself/you AND b/c he keeps a scorecard, big time. That's why HE filed when you warned him that you were going to file. Instead of making an effort to stop you, he "won" by "beating" you to it...
FWIW, scorecards always always hurt m's and friendships. Never a good idea.
I never react just thought I'd ask if anyone had insight add to of why and the best way to react.
Not reacting is pretty great....Better yet, perhaps, is pretending to be happy for him b/c you have to say "something"..
- IF you can pull it off.
It can take Academy Award level skill to do so, but then, many of us deserve acting awards b/c God knows we were acting!-
These are some ideas but I would invite others comments/suggestions too
b/c though I like these, I am not positive it's totally DBing. I think it is.
How about trying-
"Sounds fun/cool for you!" "Well I bet that was a good show"...
and happily move on to your next mystery adventure in GAL.
IF he throws OW in your face in some specific way, like it's about HER VS YOU, e.g., "ME AND OW are..." Or "OW is so great/better than you b/c..."
why not ask him if he "thinks that's really appropriate to tell me" and then shrug it off as if he's probably an idiot, but
NOT as if you are very upset.
You are Just setting a boundary that NORMAL people who are not petty or competitive, live by. Another option is to reply w/ "well I'm glad you are finally happy" and try hard as hell to look like you mean it...
And always, always have something
fun to do, interesting people to meet or new places to go. Geez, make it your mantra and live by it.
Also, I have 2 famliy members who divorced and remarried their exes a few YEARS later. I emphasize "years" b/c it was not a fast process and I don't think any of them planned on reconciling. But they had kids together so there was contact. They all GAL and each one improved as an individual...
so hey, It happens.
Jamie33 and 25mlc,
I've been reading this thread and it's been every so helpful and insightful. Thank you!
XH is a WAH/MLCer, and I question if we've begun the turn around of me being the WAW and he the LBS. He showed alot of positive changes over the last few months, but still keeps a score card.
I appreciate the pointers on score keeping. keeping score is bad ju ju! XH started keeping score and next thing you know I found myself doing that too. Im not proud of myself for that either!
25,
Girl I have taken the 37 rules to heart and have been living by them for well over a month! Lol. I have adapted the gal so well it isn't even funny. I don't always have something planned in reality, but my perceived reality is so real it almost seems funny when I come back home not having done anything. I think it's kinda funny. I'm actually buzzed and happy as if I really do have something to do.
And yes, I really have let go and forgiven. I don't take his growing experience personally. I think it's selfish and lazy to put my source of happiness on someone else. I don't even hold ow over his head or mention her. I connect her with someone God has sent to help him through this time.
I'm not so sure about her lasting effect either, seeing how she IS married. OWH is in another state. I just see them connecting BC she just moved here and was probably just as lonely as he. At least I know she takes good care of d2//3.
And oh my gosh his d paperwork was so sloppy! He is being self represented, do no L. Interesting though, the paperwork he filled this June was notarized in March, right after a nasty blow up. That was my last acting up. Never again though
He does not know my reasons for being the waw. He knows how awful he treated me, but the connection is lost. I never told him, and honestly it want until recently that I figured it out myself. At first I thought he just didn't love me, but after stepping back I can see patterns with every woman that had come into his life.
A yr ago we were in this same place. He went home and connected with an old girlfriend. He was so in love, and I was so ready to move on that he wanted, and I agreed, to let ow #1 move into our home. Yup. They lived in the basement, asking with her d3. I got myself into school (still going strong!) And focused on my life. I was using DB without even knowing it. A month later he sent them packing, back to their other state. Talk about using women for comfort!
We ended up back together, but never discussed anything. Lo and behold, the old him resurfaced. Got my car in December and was patient till the lease was up in Feb. And in typical waw fashion, I was gone baby. So no, nothing had ever been discussed. And now I see him using ow#2 the same way.
I can see how he got himself in a bind this time though. She's his boss, and their entire section is like one big group of close friends. They are all in on it. All they do is party, and who wants to abandon the fun carefree life for their family when it comes with the price of work being hell? I totally get it.
Party time is up soon though. Ow is leaving for 2 months in sep for an army school. Our d could be finalized that month. Nov he is out of the army. He doesn't have a job or anything figured out. And he gave up his apartment last month BC he couldn't afford it. Even though he's staying with his buddy from his section, he's really homeless. Talk about a future domino effect from his poor decision making. In 3 months his world is gonna fall apart. Crazy predicament.
I'm very cautious of him returning just for stability. He just turned 24, and as evident in his score keeping, has a lot of maturing to do. God must have great plans for him, staging his growing experience so early in life.
Funny how I'm not even phased by his filling for d. I will stay happy and upbeat and will meet every deadline. If the Lord has something else planned for me than I will lovingly accept. Just because he doesn't see my value doesn't mean I lack it. I love myself and don't take his issues personally.
As for the sex part, I totally get your point, and I agree. with the emotion he put onto it I have no doubt that was his way of staying connected. But that is one of my 180s and I'm sticking to it. It's also for my emotional and mental sanity. Hard for me to feel his love for me in that way and then know he is back with her. Plus, I love him enough to be the first example of a woman in his life that respects herself enough to tell him no ~ even if it means losing him in the process.
I will try on your approach for a few months of acting happy for him when he throws his plans with ow in my face. Will report on how it works...
I was also wondering if it was his way of acting as if? Even though he blew it 2 Weeks ago by admitting that he is unhappy, still "finds life very hard" and said he was not in love.
Kim,
I am shocked to see that my hot mess of a m has bee in insightful, but glad that it is. I am intrigued to see that he was the was, ended in d and now his heart is changing. I always hear about hearts changing just before or after the reality of the d. I can totally see how DB survival skills could not only save your sanity, but also turn the lbs into the was.
I think they finally find themselves and keep on walking down their new path. I think it is so vital to keep that tiny door cracked, even though their hurtful actions keep slamming it shut. I am by far no expert on this as I am aware of my ability to do the same.
I would say though, don't slam it shut. Don't be mean or nasty. Consider the old m dead, and see the new r with fresh eyes. It could be a great friendship or possibly nothing. But, what if, (this is a big one, I know) it took him this long to grow into the man you were meant to be with. You can turn your back on the old h, but what about the new and improved one??
I'm noticing an odd pattern in h. As a reason to make contact h will go at length to contact me about an upcoming event. he will even call and text the day of but then...nothing. What gives? I don't even mention that he doesn't follow through, I'm just intrigued by it.
Ex: him wanting to spend time today with the girls (fathers day). We were texting about what time, where, ect. I make contact as promised, when promised, but no response. I missed his phone call so I return it only to be sent to his voice mail. ???
I need to go firm on this guy, no more bending any rules to accommodate his wants. not sure why but he seems angry and big on score keeping (though I haven't given him anything to take score of). Anyone have some insight about what's going on here?
I started 2 other threads so I'm going to move them over here...
just so I know where to post now, THIS is your thread, right? I mean there is only one now?
I'm noticing an odd pattern in h. As a reason to make contact h will go at length to contact me about an upcoming event. he will even call and text the day of but then...nothing. What gives? I don't even mention that he doesn't follow through, I'm just intrigued by it.
Ex: him wanting to spend time today with the girls (fathers day). We were texting about what time, where, ect. I make contact as promised, when promised, but no response. I missed his phone call so I return it only to be sent to his voice mail. ???
I need to go firm on this guy, no more bending any rules to accommodate his wants. not sure why but he seems angry and big on score keeping (though I haven't given him anything to take score of). Anyone have some insight about what's going on here?
didn't you two just have a great experience the other day? This is him withdrawing and going cold. He was very hurt
and does not want to be hurt again. This is why, as Crimson says, we call it a roller coaster. You have both been hurt and done some hurting.
What changes are YOU making? How long have you been making them? Hasn't this been pretty fast for both of you?
so of course his biggest fear is going back and being hurt again AND OR not reconciling and being alone.
Consistent change + sufficient time = change you both can believe in.Belt yourself in and work on YOU and only you. How are the books coming? Do you buy into the DB beliefs? They are solution based-
means, NOT about rehashing the past or keeping score, or studying WHY your childhood was what it was, etc....
but doing what helps the m NOW, and doing less or none of what hurts it. That's what DB 101 is...
The deal where you both were giving the gilrs lousy clothes b/c you FEARED the other would withhold was very telling...major score keeping in anticipation of the other "winning"...("winning"... what?? See how petty it all seems now?)
I'm so glad you stopped that cycle. Model for your h the NEW R you have now...Be someone who will have no regrets later on.
If you become your best self, =
a woman only a fool would leave, then you can know you did your best
hold your head high, & leave the results up to God.
25 yrs,
Check out the other thread I started in this forum ooh my goodness it isn't dead. It's an update on what happened a few hours after I posted this ?
I agree though. I think he's hurting, and also guilt ridden/ashamed to face me. All I can do if keep the changes going and shore him through my actions that the road home is smooth, not paved with obstacles to overcome.
I'm new to the ebb. I have been trying to use the 180. But seem to loose focus when the wow wants to talk about a divorce. I go back to the old behaviors. I'm also trying to give her space. But I find myself not calling and talking to the kids. Sometime the want wee or bear from me a week. Is that the right way to do a 180._
I'm new to the ebb. I have been trying to use the 180. But seem to loose focus when the wow wants to talk about a divorce. I go back to the old behaviors. I'm also trying to give her space. But I find myself not calling and talking to the kids. Sometime the want wee or bear from me a week. Is that the right way to do a 180._
Hi Top5. Welcome to the best place to be for the worst reason we found ourselves.
It would be a really good idea to start your own thread and give us a bit of background for you and your sitch.
It really is hard to know what 180s might be good for you or what other possibilities you can look at without the background.
Update on how I have been doing....
I am greatful for this experience, as crazy as it has been, as it has given me the chance to grow, forgive and love. It is liberating and humbling at the same time.
I have become aware of 2 major flaws that I know aided in the decline of the R....
1. I lost myself. I forgot about Jamie and became, mom, wife, housekeeper.... These are roles that I proudly served, but lost myself in the process. For me I have found that when you lose yourself you place the source of your happiness on others, which will always let you down. No one is responsible for your well being but yourself. I'm not denying the benefits from a caring partner, I'm talking about the "you did something that I didn't like so I am angry, and now I'm going to make sure you suffer". Sounds twisted when you say it, but many of us do it.
2.I was not a good supporter or source of stregnth in the R. Even when things got bad, when the ball started rolling down hill, I kicked the heck out of it and escelated the issues. I turned on the man I loved when my heart just wanted to reach out to him. Ex:things were bad at home so I kept myself on second shift at the hospital, working 3pm-11pm, ensuring we would be apart. I fueled the fire, I nagged, complained, yelled...I was so use to feeling like a victim in our R that I created situations that would perpetuate that feeling.
Why is this? One night I found myself all alone, feeling so lost. I thought I wanted out of the M. And there I was, on my own, and still miserable. I had a breakdown and let myself cry good and hard. I reached out to family, a therapist (going for several months now) and leaders in my church. I believe that I was (working on no longer being) a co dependant. I didn't associate with that word until I did research. I'm currently reading "Co Dependant No More, and Getting Stronger Every Day".
The best way to describe co dependancy (for me) is when you numb your emotions and deal with extremly unhealthy situations from the fear of being alone/angering the other person. It's much more than that, but that is how it applies to me.
I can honestly tell you that I am feeling really good about myself. I feel peace, I really do. I know that no matter what happens, I'm going to be ok.
I thought I understood the DB techniques in DR, but I didn't. I understand acting as if and detaching, but didn't fully grasp how important they really are.
For months I had been crying and puttingmyself through such misery! It was honestly so painful. I think the personal growth I have experienced is not from understanding the techniques, but because I need peace in my life and a sense of well being.
In 3 months my divorce can be finalized. I asked myself, if it were done, what would I do? What would it take for me to be prepared? Would I be happy? When would I allow myself to get my butt off the floor and learn to live again? I have gone into the mode of not just acting as if I were moving on, but from acting as if I just got divorced and was in the process of recovering. And it's made all the difference.
I will not ever act from fear or anger when dealing with H. I will have loving boundaries. The no expectations reminder isn't needed here, my "as if" reality has moved beyond the M/D. I'm thinking about me. I loving me, improving me, healing me. I'm not pacing around the house wondering how to reply to his text. I'm not excited to see him or sad to see him leave. This is Jamie time. Seeing things through my new perspective, I truly believe I have detached and am GAL.
ps, my new life is exciting! I joined the YMCA so I'm doing kick boxing, zumba and swimming. When those negative thoughts kick in I get up and go for a walk listen to music, dance with my girls, read a book....anything. I don't let myself sit around feeling sorry for myself. I'm not a victim of anything.
25 yrs,
Check out the other thread I started in this forum ooh my goodness it isn't dead. It's an update on what happened a few hours after I posted this ?
I agree though. I think he's hurting, and also guilt ridden/ashamed to face me. All I can do if keep the changes going and shore him through my actions that the road home is smooth, not paved with obstacles to overcome.
I asked if THIS was your thread b/c I only have so much time to post to folks. Is this THE thread or not?
It's really a LOT easier for us to follow your story if you keep it in one place b/c otherwise
it's like having to read chapters out of different books to follow your story.
Make sense? Link it here if you have to, and then please stay in one place.
I also find that using the same title when you start a new thread, with a numerical sequence HELPS to stay with someone over time and when I have to disappear from posting for weeks (to GAL or actually work or be w/h)
it's easier to find the people I wanted to keep up with.
Meaning, add #2, to your above Subject and then #3, etc.
I'm new to the ebb. I have been trying to use the 180. But seem to loose focus when the wow wants to talk about a divorce. I go back to the old behaviors. I'm also trying to give her space. But I find myself not calling and talking to the kids. Sometime the want wee or bear from me a week. Is that the right way to do a 180._
No Not as a father. You can talk to and see your kids as often as possible. Just don't use them as a vehicle to pursue your wife.
keep it separate and be the best dad you can be or they'll feel YOU left your FAMILY
and btw, being a great dad is what they really need now, AND it so happens to
(impress and deeply move most mothers)...
but do it b/c it's right for THEM and ought to bring you some joy.Anything else positive is gravy.
What changes are YOU making b/c you want to be the man YOU can be?
Keep your focus on you and those goals AND your kids...
and keep reading the DR DB books. Do not point out your changes to your wife
but if she points them out, you can say "Been meaning to do that for awhile anyhow. Of course If I had it all to do again, there are lots of things I'd do differently"-
that statement does NOT escalate or blame or make you a doormat AND
it shows potential for CHANGE ON YOUR END
if your w does not believe marriage to you can be better/different than before
then she's gone for good.
So what are YOU DOING to SHOW change?
25-
Got it. This will be my solo thread, thanks for the pointer.
(just journaling for me)
Crazy how emotions come in waves. Better than being numb though. Earlier I felt such peace and acceptance with my sitch, right now I'm feeling sad. Recovery doesn't happen over night though, so I won't be so hard on myself.
I miss my husband, my buddy. It's hard to swallo the concept that two people who love each other so damn much let things get this far gone. The sitch feels hopeless, still hard to believe how this happened.
I'm sad for my girls too, this is never what I wanted for them. They are only 2 and 3-will they have ANY memory of their mommy and daddy together? I know it isn't necessary for their well being, I just wish they could remember when things were amazing instead of trying to imagine it.
I'm sad for H too. I'm not mad at him at all, I don't hold any grudges. I can only imagine the internal battle he is dealing with right now. I wish I could hold my best friend, let him cry in my arms and tell him that everything is ok. I know I can't hold his hand, this is his own personal journey. It just breaks my heart to know that someone I love so dearly is hurting.
I'm gonna take a hot bath, have a good cry and possibly some key lime pie
I know I'm gonna be ok. I wish I knew we were going to be ok, but I don't. But I know I'm gonna be ok. I keep reminding myself that I have walked through much harder things in life and came out just fine. I remind myself (completly detaching and acting as if I really AM divorced) that I have suffered heart break before. Not only did I survive, but as impossible as it seemed at the time, I fell in love again.
This too shall pass and I will be ok. Baby steps...
Jamie..I know how U feel Im the one that left a long time marriage ( basically kicked to the curb ) by my hubby...but I had been emotionally gone for a long time..and had been packing and taking unwanted things to the thrift stores and Good will for months....He didnt notice
So I was a WAW... 8 days after I left I got a divorce summons
HE was done.........so I became the left behind wife......that was 5 years ago...He dropped the Divorce after much haggling and 2 lawyers involved We were actually back to living together, with a div hanging over my head ( I defaulted.......which means I didnt respond to the Div petition )
He could have taken everything and left me in the gutter...altho
I would not have ended up there...still carried my RN license
My Mom came home from Florida and MADE me go to the docs for AD's and hired me a darn good lawyer to fight for my rights....which is why he dropped the divorce............
Long story.. made short.......I heard him tell peeps for the first 12 months after we were back together, " I couldnt have afforded the Divorce because she would have taken me to the cleaners and I would have lost my business's "
Now i'll tell ya that hurt me alot hurt me to the bone....but I continued to use the concepts of alanon and DB and continued to work on myself..............
I'm in a fairly peaceful place at this time......but ya never know what tomorrow brings..
thinking of U
Cindy Lou
Notso,
Thank you for your response. are you two still together? Idk why but in my gut I don't feel as if we really will D. I can see him waking up to the reality once we start going through the process of being in court. I see an 11th hour miracle. Until then I'm stepping back to slow him to feel/sort everything out.
Who knows, I COULD be in denial, but that's why I'm going focusing on my life right now, I need to be healthy regardless.
Jamie...........yes we are still together celebrating 29 years of marriage in August.
I guess we are a work in progress.... and always will be.
Cindy Lou
Not so,
That is amazing! Big smiles for you <3
(journaling)
Today was good! I found myself feeling sad, so I let myself cry. 5 min later I though ok, now when will you allow yourself to feel happy? Do you want to lay in bed and have a pity party or do something about it?
Went for a hike then to my first kick boxing class. I totally rocked it! Afterwards I hiked down a new trail and discovered some horses in a field. I jumped the fence (bad girl!) And walked up to them to pet. Really nice and therapeutic.
A few tears came out of no where. I put on my iPod and sang out loud on the hike back.
Tomorrow I have zumba. The next day is set aside to lounge by the pool with a cookout party at a friends the next day.
Feeling better every day.
Glad you are feeling better Jamie.
My biggest, over all sense from all that you have posted is that you are acting far too hastily and examing things microscopically
and instead I would NOT DO ANYTHING I did not HAVE to do re the marriage or divorce
He served you so, okay, take it easy. You have a lawyer, no need to rush things.
Back way off and work on yourself b/c both of you have greatly over reacted in the past, clearly...and the paradigm through which he is seeing the marriage and you WERE (and I hope are no longer)
needed major changing. IT's not merely a "better communication" or "more sex"
type of dynamic.
But there are children and there was at one time a strong bond. Give it time and space to resurface.
Don't let your ego or a wounded pride make any decisions...
of course protect yourself/girls but again there is a way to know when you are acting from a healthy loving place
vs the desire to KNOW RIGHT NOW and fix it or end it...
but some ambiguity exists in all lives... & none of us "KNOW" what will happen in the future. That's okay.
I hope this makes sense - just want to say you won't get all the answers soon, and some of the answers are not there at all...or they change just as you begin to hold them in your hands...fleeting shifting realities...
All you need to DO today, is work on YOU. Don't borrow trouble from tomorrow.
Stay in the moment and make the best of it; life is made up of those 'moments'. Make some each day.
25,
I am seeing a pattern that I'm not sure how to respond to in the future. He likes to hug/flirt with me when we meet to exchange the children. At first, I was open to it. I figured it was his way to feel me out, and then as expected would go dark again. He has gotten progressivly more touchy feely/flirty.
DB defies logic, and my "same" was always being avalible to him. He has never felt my absence. And I know true 180s often make you uncomfortable.
So now I'm thinking that I should avoid placing myself in a position where he can get physical with me. And if he does try, to politly tell him that it is not appropiate. Thoughts?
A hugs part of my gut tells me that he will continue to flip flop between ow and myself as long as he believes that the m is still there, waiting. That he will not realize the finality of things until he is left alone to face them.
I know that in order for this to happen it will take months of being completly dark. I have not made contact in about 6 weeks, but have not been disciplined in the area of physical contact. I am going to go back to have him drop of d2/3 at daycare and I'll just pick them up from daycare. That's how things had been but once I started to refrain from contacting him he switched to face/face drop offs. I think it was his way of being able to see me and feel out my emotonial status.
And yes, I have decided that even if he keeps the nice clothes I have bought them, I will still dress them nice on the days I know h will be picking them up. I will not comment about the clothes should he keep them, they can easily be replaced. By making this small change I hope to stop some of the score keeping and trust issues. It's small, but a baby step for sure.
The no physical contact thing is more for me than anything. I have more and more moments of contempment and honest happiness, but I would be lying if I said that I have comletly dropped the no expectation thing. Detaching and gal are still big things for me, although I do see great improvement.
goals for h and I right now? geeze I don't even know. Goals for me? Totaly knocking them out. And yes, our sitch has been fairly quick as ow just entered the picture 4 months ago. So no, I don't think there has been enough time for ANYTHING yet. And yes, I have been looking at things with a microscope. I guess bc I find myself thinking about it a lot. I'm getting better at it though.
You are right. After H opened up to me, it seemed logical that he would come over and the convo would continue. But he didn't, he went on a weekend trip with ow. I had unrealistic expectations. The next day is when I sent him the "I think you were just having a bad day when you opened up to me, I'm done, I'm filing" text. Had I not had the need to "know right now" and sent that text, he wouldn't have tried to win and file. So I basicly backed him in a corned and he filled to get out of it. Oops.
25,
I am seeing a pattern that I'm not sure how to respond to in the future.
IMO, no you are not seeing a "pattern." A pattern takes weeks or months to form. You seem to see them in one day interactions Jamie.
Sorry but you need to back up and take a much bigger broader perspective so you don't react or "plan" a reaction to so little, so often. You're spinning your wheels and that hinders your growth b/c your energy is spent looking at HIS behavior instead of your own.
Just work on YOUR STUFF.
what is that anyhow?
He likes to hug/flirt with me when we meet to exchange the children. At first, I was open to it. I figured it was his way to feel me out, and then as expected would go dark again.
"feel you out" for what? Information? How about him feeling connected to you and seeing if you would react warmly and welcome him home?? OR
if you'd cut him off to "show him a thing or two"?
He has gotten progressivly more touchy feely/flirty.
DB defies logic, and my "same" was always being avalible to him. He has never felt my absence. And I know true 180s often make you uncomfortable.
He HAS felt your absence....but what you're referring to is affection/sex/intimacy, right?
On one hand, this reeks of "teaching him a lesson" and I don't think any man ever misses the great sex he did NOT have with his wife. No man misses arms crossed over their wive's chest w/a firm "No touch!" stance...
OTOH if YOU feel used afterwards, lonelier than before, or disrespected BECAUSE of how he treats YOU (not just going)
like if he's overtly nasty or says the "ML was bad" or he wishes OW were there, then forget it...
but--if he just withdraws from you, after connecting, sometimes That's a "touch and go" pattern for many.
They want the emotional connection they miss so very much, and intimacy reminds them of that... but if they get afraid of being hurt again (-lest we forget HE was the original LBSer
and this is ALL NEW & FRESH and moving at the speed of sound)
so how do YOU feel when you are intimate? And after?
Is it possible you both feel closer, but since he has not jumped back into bed AND the house, you kinda want to punish him?
Or do you think that if he gets to have his cake and eat it too, that it'll never end?
I can see feeling that way, but not this fast or soon...don't confuse your wounded pride with self respect. There's a fine line sometimes.
For ME (and it's an intensely intimate personal matter so don't let me or anyone else TELL you what to do) and it's hard to explain but
my h and I had a good physical connection and I KNOW HE felt closer when we were intimate and it "reminded us of 'us'", it enveloped us for a moment, in the big picture of things...it helped us stay connected and it certainly aided the reconciliation.
I gave my h something to miss. I'd want to Make sure the last memory your h has of intimacy w/you is a great one...
So now I'm thinking that I should avoid placing myself in a position where he can get physical with me.
MAYBE this^^^ if you feel bad afterwards or are trying to protect yourself..
And if he does try, to politly tell him that it is not appropiate. Thoughts?
seems to me, (but ask around) that you are pushing him into the arms of OW more with this cold approach. He already fears you won't ever forgive him or get past the affair...how does this withdrawal help your over all goal?
Why can't you relax a bit? Focus on YOUR STUFF?
Did you take in my note to you above and process it? The one about how fast & furious this is all moving...
in 6 months time, you've both left each other. That's a record. Just stop & breathe longer and work on YOU.
A hugs part of my gut tells me that he will continue to flip flop between ow and myself as long as he believes that the m is still there, waiting. That he will not realize the finality of things until he is left alone to face them.
I know that in order for this to happen it will take months of being completly dark. I have not made contact in about 6 weeks, but have not been disciplined in the area of physical contact. I am going to go back to have him drop of d2/3 at daycare and I'll just pick them up from daycare. That's how things had been but once I started to refrain from contacting him he switched to face/face drop offs. I think it was his way of being able to see me and feel out my emotonial status.
And yes, I have decided that even if he keeps the nice clothes I have bought them, I will still dress them nice on the days I know h will be picking them up. I will not comment about the clothes should he keep them, they can easily be replaced. By making this small change I hope to stop some of the score keeping and trust issues. It's small, but a baby step for sure.
if your kids need nice clothes and they're not emptying your bank account, don't you want them to look nice? Why only look nice at your place?
Do you feel them great fun food at your house and then hope they only get bread and water at their dad's??
Same goes for their favorite toys. I knew a couple who only let the best toys be at their homes so the kid could be bribed into being with one parent more as each new gadget and video came out. Those kids are wacky now.
Their parents never improved in their scorekeeping (more detailed and goes back decades) or relationship. their girls paid for it.
The no physical contact thing is more for me than anything.
IF that's^^ really true you can say "No can do b/c it's confusing to you".
Don't label it as inappropriate b/c he's still your h and sounds as if he's still attracted to you.
Might you be winning the contest with OW? How can he let you know, other than going way out on a limb? He's the first LBSer.
Have you really reassured him and showed him YOUR CHANGES?
I have more and more moments of contempment and honest happiness, but I would be lying if I said that I have comletly dropped the no expectation thing. Detaching and gal are still big things for me, although I do see great improvement.
MAYBE, not seeing him is helpful for you atm. But it makes you wonder about how to show change without real contact...??
goals for h and I right now? geeze I don't even know. Goals for me? Totaly knocking them out. And yes, our sitch has been fairly quick as ow just entered the picture 4 months ago. So no, I don't think there has been enough time for ANYTHING yet. And yes, I have been looking at things with a microscope. I guess bc I find myself thinking about it a lot. I'm getting better at it though.
Thanks for this, 25. really helps me with my sitch...
25,
Yes, you are right on the money here. I always feel so low and used after a moment, be it sex or a child exchange. I feel (felt) our love again, and it was just so real and amazing. It felt so good to feel his arms around me again. I would find myself thanking God in my head. I would kiss him and silently tell him ILU.
And then he would withdraw. After an amazing night of love making he would leave the house and I would see them in the car together the next day. I can't even describe how low I would feel. Used, stupid and gullible.
That low feeling is why I need this space. Not to punish him for going back to OW, but to help me. I am not emotionaly capable of doing that while not having any expectations and letting go and gal.
So I maintain my space, for me.
I still pray for my M and for healing.
"Or do you think that if he gets to have his cake and eat it too, that it'll never end?"
EXACTLY how I feel. Does this reek of pride? Idk, possibly. But it's exactly how I feel. Like it will NEVER end bc it's too comfortable for him.
I copied and pasted a bunch of posts. This feels so much better and "right" to me. Not bc it punishes hubby with space, but bc it gives me the space to feel good about myself again. It keeps me moving forward so that D or not, I'm ready. Not sure if it would help anyone, but I will post it here...
There are thousands of post related to going dark, letting go, detaching, getting a life, moving on, etc. etc. Whatever you want to call it, it's about regaining your own sanity, healing your broken heart, stop being a doormat and becoming a likable person.
It has been said over and over that there is no bigger attraction killer than a loss of respect, yet there are still a lot of people here who for months after months are still struggling to make that seemingly simple concept a reality.
So what gives?
Every single day I read folks here pounding each other with the same rhetoric – drop the rope, let them go, take care of yourself, become attractive again, blahblahblah. Yet minutes later they are right back in the same porridge which they have been cooking themselves in for a long time.
I have no doubt that the theory makes perfect sense, it is the lack of strength to put it in practice. Why is that?
One of the problems I see is the notion that letting go, going dark and moving on from the spouse who has fired you is some kind of a tactic to win them back. That has been advocated in books and forums. But it should not be a tactic or it will not be genuine and will not produce desired results. The walkaways and waywards are not blind or stupid not to see through the fakeness of these actions.
So how do you make this "reality"?
You must drop the expectations that your actions are going to turn your situation around. You will never get emotionally detached if you are constantly checking what the reactions to your actions are. When I think of Stockdale Paradox, which I do very often, I see everything around me which disrupts my pursuit of happiness, as brutal facts which need to be confronted in order to prevail.
So how do you put this into practice? Your spouse fired you. You are not happy. You want her/him back. He/she does not want you because you are not longer attractive.
You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end with the discipline to confront the brutal facts of your reality.
To really understand that, is fundamental for success. To sit around and keep doing nothing or keep doing what does not work, will get you nowhere. The only person you can change and improve is yourself. Have faith in yourself to become the strong attractive person who your spouse once fell in love with. Don't do it to impress him/her, do it for yourself and your future. Remember that they don't want you anymore, so drop that for a reason.
Obsessing about the past and trying to figure out what your spouse is feeling or thinking is counterproductive. There is also nothing you can do to change history. You can however change the way you think about your emotions. Value yourself. You were fired because you had lost respect. No respect, no attraction.
Get out and explore the world. Listen to what people say about themselves and others around you. What is it that they like and adore in another person? Pay attention to that. Examine how attractive people interact. Look at their mannerism, body language, listen to how they talk and the words they use. Also learn from the people who are disliked and understand why they are.
Practice and be amazed how it works.
Suddenly you are no longer obsessed by the brutal reality of your situation. You find revelation and peace. You are completely comfortable with yourself to achieve happiness you deserve. Where is that wayward spouse again? Oh, I have forgotten. Look, there,…as miserable as before.
You confronted your brutal facts, you have not confused faith with discipline and you have prevailed. You are attractive, strong and confident person. If your spouse is still lingering and around and took notice, you may have a chance for reconciliation should you choose it. If not, you are ready to move on and pursue the new successful relationship as long as you don't forget what you just have learned.
It is WHEN the WAW begins to FEEL (notice the word FEEL or FEELINGS) that the BS may not only have let go, but that they MAY (notice the word may) have now lost the BS for good...
The betrayed spouse has their best chance when the wayward stops thinking "how do I get out of this" to..
"did I go too far? what have I done? maybe I have made a mistake"....
Those thoughts CAN NOT enter the WS's mind UNTIL they start to ponder that they may have lost the betrayed spouse.
As long as the WS still thinks you want them back it doesn't matter how much of GAL you do. Part of the GAL that is so important is the part where the WS WONDERS if you are emotionally finished.. finito.. done.. The only way to do that is with NO PRESSURE. NO PURSUIT. NONE.
There are numerous examples of men and women on this site that admit they have gotten a life, but still haven't shown or convinced the WS that maybe, just maybe they have lost you for good. THAT is the key of GAL that opens the door to reconcile. (which is the biggest key the BS doesn't do.)
VERY good question..
The whole idea behind this site is to SAVE a marriage. That is the goal. yes? no?...
My answer to your question is to say things to him NOW that he was throwing up at you before when he was wayward....
For example.. (this may not be your example, just generic)
"Husband. I am NOT really sure right now how I feel. I know you say you want to do whatever I say, but I now realize that I just don't want to be with a man who is unfaithful. I WILL NOT be with a man who doesn't give back. I need some time and space right now. Anyway I have a call on the other line and I don't have time to talk right now. I have to go."
Do you see there that you did NOT put any pressure or conditions on him? Do you see how you are giving him "letting go" talk? Do you see that IF he is serious that his only answer to you has to be...."I am sorry I was unfaithful and I will do anything to make it work"..???
Do you understand that by you playing a little "hard to get" that this may be the exact thing to do? Don't YOU remember when you thought HE felt that way? Do you remember what a tailspin it puts you in?
IF he loves you, then he WILL do anything you want...
Right now YOU are NOT SURE what you want. You want time.
Get it? IF he loves you he isn't going anywhere. Matter of fact this usually gets a man to try HARDER...
How many times do I have to tell you women these things?
It is your LOW SELF ESTEEM that causes you to question my advice. Fake it...
Don't just play hard to get..
but.. BE HARD TO GET.. Be a prize he has to earn. MAKE him earn your love back. You don't have to be mean to him. Just be a little mysterious and let him think you really aren't sure right now. You want to think it over.. The funny thing is that I really think by your question to me that you really DO want to think this over. And yet your low self esteem is wanting to rush back in too soon. Let him earn it
Remember. He has to give up the OW and yet it has to be because he WANTS to not because you forced him. The only way to do that is to let him think that he has gone too FAR. That he has maybe blown it. Are you a second choice type woman? Don't be. Let him feel that he can HAVE the OW.. BUT.. he can't have you too..
It is easier for THEM to think they can have this duality while they are confused. But as long as it exists they do not experience the loss of the M. They think it's still there...waiting. They won't go through the stages the LBS has to go through until they FEEL IT HARD. Like the day you got the bomb dropped on you.
When the WS says they want to be just friends, your answer is to say "oh yes we can be friends, maybe we make better friends than we do lovers."
THAT is what you say to them.. You tell them as if you are perfectly happy being friends. No big deal.
NOW.. What your ACTIONS do after you say that is somewhat different... You do NO contacting except for business that HAS to be done. You do NO pursuing. You do NOT hang on the phone. When they contact you, be cordial, but a tad distant. Not mean.
You always want to act like you are very very busy and when they call, you are "right in the middle of something" and can't talk. Get down to the reason they call and then YOU end the call first. Politely. "Talk to you later"
You do NOT tell a WS that "I can't be your friend"..
Why? Because it comes across as needy and "if I can't have my way, then we won't be friends. It HURTS your chances. It isn't a strong statement even though some think it is. It IS NOT.
Let them THINK you are fine being friends, and then ACT like they are a "casual" friend that you only talk to when you run into them...
GET IT? Don't cut off your nose to spite your face..
Give her HER way.. No biggie.. "sure we can be friends"
THEN you ignore them. You let THEM come to you. That is all there is to it.. You let them THINK you are friends and then you just do you own thing. Do you contact and pursue activities with every friend you have? Of course not. Do you tell one of them "well since you didn't ask me to go golfing the other day, then I will be your golf partner but I won't be your friend"
Do you see how silly that sounds to THE OTHER PERSON?
It does NOT work to reconcile.
Your answer to her should be..
"Yea we can be friends, but I WANT to live by myself. I may meet somebody and I don't want them to think I am living with a woman.. (you tell her this toungue in cheek and then drop the subject)
(journaling)
Ah CLARITY!
25's advice was so right on, but felt instinctivly wrong for me. Going dark and working on me felt so much more logical, and now I know WHY. Funny what a little walk can do for ya!
This fact might not be known, or might not have been factored in, but...
Litteraly a year ago we were in the same place. After a yr of emotonial hell I was the WAW. We were in the same home living on separate floors. After a few months of this, H goes home for the 4th of July. Sees highschool sweetheart and falls "in love" the 2 weeks he is there. Less than a few weeks later OW moves to our state to be with him.
They are living out their fantasy. Meanwhile, I was db and didn't even know it. I was happy for him and kept to myself. I got my butt in school and was working on ME. I guess that made me more attractive bc we started having sex again. Little did I know he quickly (4 weeks ltr) came out of his fog and was looking at me again.
He kissed me and casualy asked me out of no where if I wanted to give things another try, and I said yes. That was it. She went back home within two weeks and we were a family again. He understood the reasons behind me becoming a WAW and he made changes. By October things were amazing.
Idk why but the old him resurfaced in December. He was treating me the same as before and I was beyond devestated. Things had gotten so bad that by Christmas Eve I was bawling telling him I couldn't take the pain/mistreatment anymore. There was no reaction. And thus I moved out a month later, which is where my story really begins.
Now I find myself in the same predicament. Would I love to see this sitch DBed? Heck yes. But I'm not going about it the same way. I don't want the same results. I know it's easy to argue that the goal is to get the OP back home, and then focus on the M. Didn't work. The SAME MAN came back to me, meaning I ended up in the SAME RELATIONSHIP. He even admitted to me 3 weeks ago that he didn't give it his all.
How refreshing that feels to step back and get some footing. Now I understand my feelings. He never felt my absence. He never truly felt the aftershock of the bomb. He never had to miss me, I was always there. He wasn't forced to speculate what he did that led to the demise. He never took a hard look at himself to see why he was so unhappy. No 180s. He never walked down the road that every other LBS walks down. And that's why he returned to his old behaviors. His changes wernt real.
The worst thing he did was break my heart. But the best thing he ever did was show me how amazing and strong I am. Obviously I want to see the M work, that's why I hang out here. But I also know that I'm gonna be ok no matter what. He's still miserable right now, lost and looking for instant gratification with OW.
Perhaps he lacks the courage to go down the LBS road. It's hard and it hurts, we all know that. He could see the LBS road, get scared and detour to marriage with OW. He will continue his same old bahavior and be unhappy. If that's what he's gonna do I'm happy to let H do it to OW and not me.
Damn I think I really did detach. I feel pretty great right now.
I have made changes in my work schedual and by joining church nad becomming more cative in it. My wife says because I worked alot she felt that she was doing it alone. I know I must get more involved with the children because thats what a father is suppose to do. My anger gets in the way sometime. We have little to no communication and only see each other for a brief minuet when we exchaneg the children. Just trying to work my way through this with some advice from people. I have done all the wrong thins like begging and purseuing her. I'm trying to change that behavior also.
It start several months ago, I worked alot and was never at home. Wife started with some insecurties and taght I was cheating. We began I argue a lot, something we never did. She complined about me not being there and helping her with the children. 1/12 she found some inapproiate emials to an ex that I was playing around with. Everything with south then. Two monts late we seperated. I have done all the wrong, by begging and calling and texting. Trying to find the 180 that works for me. She said she can'y thrust me anymore and is very hurt
-update-
Not sure why but OW presence is les felt, possibly even gone. H began texting me Sunday out of the blue. He was asking for advice on how to react to d2/3 and what to feed them. After being separated for 6 months? He sounded as if it were his first week with them and he needed advice.
One thing that stood out was the terms he used such as "our" daughter, not just calling her by her name. Also said things like "I'll have to remember that", "I'll go get that" and "I loved when you cooked that".
He mentioned my dramatic weight loss. I replied something along the lines of how I had been so depressed but that I was happy and in a much better place.
Checked my pride at the curb (per 25's advice) and allowed the convo to progress into sex talk. I left the door open for it to occur.
Interesting, he called me at 5:30 am the next morning asking me why I wasn't home. ?????
I work in the hospital and just this past week switched to the night time shift. H realised and began asking about d2/3's care. He isn't happy about them "bouncing around daycare providers". He doesn't like any changes that they have to go through. I hate it, but what did he expect? I just replied that this is their new normal.
He mentioned my dramatic weight loss, to which I replied something along the lines of "I know, I use to be so depressed and did not have the desire to eat. But I am at a much better place now and am really happy. My weight is starting to come back on thanks to cardio kick boxing!" (kick boxing is a huge 180)
I let him know that I did not hate him or hold a grudge. I also told him that I wished him the best and that I was so happy to finally see him happy again. He told me he was happy to see me happy again too. Part of me wonders if he thinks I'm happy that he filled for D? But I know, stay out of his head. My words were genuine though. I AM happy and I DO wish him the best. I had a good cry after that text.
I know to stay out of his head. It would seem that he doesn't like the side effects of this new life we are living. Reality will really hit home next Monday, when we have our initial status confrence with the courts. Or in the final days before the decree is signed.
If all things go as planned he will have his D in about 60 days. I'm actualy glad the timer has started, at least I know at some point this will end. He has let me know time again that he is confused. Perhaps the finality of everything will hit as inch closer to September.
When those helpless feelings take me over I remind myself that I will be ok. I make myself eat normal meals. I think for now I'm just focused on my wellbeing and being the best mommy I can be. As far as H, I keep giving him his space and act as a warm friend when he comes near.
Have any of you seen the Waldo Canyon fire in Colorado on the news? That's me! This place is so scary right now ;(
just for me- notes on GAL and goals
LAST WEEK I...
-joined the YMCA, and started cardio kickboxing
-I helped a secret hoarder unclutter a huge part of his house
-went with my best friend to a girls only bbq, made new friends and fell in love with a new wine!
THIS WEEK I...
-became more independant by hiring a night time sitter for my girls while I'm at work
-Have been dramaticly more optomistic/excited about life in general
-communicate more with friends
-talked LESS about sitch!!
-planned a dinner date with a friend for next week
-have forced myself to eat several meals a day
NEXT WEEK:
-plan to not talk about sitch, why let my world revolve around it?
-add zumba to my workout schedule and go to the gym every day. More to get back in shape/decompress than anything
-dinner date with friend
-get myself a new dress
-make myself go someplace new, all by myself
*I lost over 20 lbs dealing with this crazy mess. I want to be haelthy for ME and set a healthy example for my girls. I now cook full meals and make myself eat every few hours. I'm feeling my energy come back!
(just venting on here so I don't vent on H)
Feeling angry tonight, which makes me feel suprisingly done and stronger. I don't think I dropped the rope, I think I threw it off a cliff.
H insists on meeting anyone, ie babysitters that comes into contact with d2/3. We had origonialy agreed that he could go with me when I pick them up in the morning. I was open to it thinking it was his way of spending time with me/chance to have a positive interaction.
After honestly pulling back and letting go I saw his train of thought as unrealistic. I don't know anything about him and he has to know everything about me? Even calling me to ask why I was not home? Who the he-- does he think he is? You can't treat me like crap for 6 months and expect to be so involved in my life!
It's like he wants the space of the divorce yet all the privilages of being my best friend and partner. A enemy wouldn't treat me as bad as he has. Get out of my life! Don't use the kids as a coward excuse to see me. You have your ow, your space, your happy new life. Get out of mine and let me live my life.
I sent him a text tonight that said...
(ME)
"Don't worry about meeting up with me tomorrow. It is unrealistic to think that I will go out of my way to introduce you to everyone that will come into my girls lives, because I'm not going to do it. You can choose not to use April if you want, but you need to find your own babysitter. Unless I hear other instructions from you I am taking them to April's house on Monday"
(HUBBY)
"why what happened?"
2 min later...
"I will meet you Sunday then cuz I work nights next week. Is that ok?"
(ME)
(Nope. We have plans. U can pick them up from April's house"
(HUBBY)
"Can I meet you outside Aprils then cuz I don't work that day so they don't need to go. Is that ok?"
15 min later...
"I don't know what I did to make you upset but I am sorry"
Does he really think that he can treat me the way he has and that I will bend to his every desire? There comes a point where the LBS (him) takes it too far. He crossed that line months ago. He made me homeless and was laughing at me! Too many things to list. You beat someone with a whip long enough that they just say screw you, go torture someone else. I'm gonna be happy and I don't deserve this.
He is out of his mind to think he can say "I don't want my girls going to that church" or "I am their father, I need to meet everyone that will watch them for the next 10 years of their lives"
Pssshh!
He even told me the other day "if you really want it (sex) I can hook you up later on this week? WHAT? You mean if I suffer long enough or if I'm good long enough you'll lie to ow so you can come over and "hook me up"? Uh, no. Do you think your ---- fell off of God?
Hope you like your life bc it's yours to own now.
**Are you understanding how fed up and disgusted I am right now?
I want to tell him how much he makes me sick. How I hope he loses 20 pounds just like I did once reality slaps him in the face. How I hate the fact that he is the father of my children bc little girls always look for a man just like their daddy. He is the last type of man I would want them to be with. How he is a damn fool if he thinks we could be friends. He doesn't even deserve to hear all of this, this deep hatred I am feeling right now.
I am not going to say a thing to him. Not answer a text,not even cuss him out. Nothing. Done. So long buddy. I hate the fact that you get to see me at (divorce) court bc you don't even deserve that much of a glance.
Idiot.
So, you are back to being the WAS?
I let go, dropped the roap, dropped the expectation...whatever you call it, that's what I did. So yes, in essence I am back to being the WAS.
I'm not worried about H. I'm focusing on my life. There was a lot of anger in that post, but it's a normal emotion so I'm not being hard on myself about it. I'm just tired of trying. My wheels were spinning, as so many people have said.
IF h were to have the great awakening I would not abandon my dream, but I'm not longer driving myself insane waiting for it. This is my life too, and I love it! I am happier now, much more confident and carefree.
I have not heard from you in a while, how are things going for you?
I'm doing good, jg333, thanks for asking.
I'll post here as my current thoughts are the same for both this and your thread in "thinking of leaving".
Do you plan on doing anything about your anger specifically directed at your H?
What would it look like for you to know that your H had his "great awakening"? What would he be doing?
Hmmm, my anger...time? Prayer? Tears? I dunno honestly. But thank goodness I don't let hime see it.
What would he be doing to prove his great awakening?
He would talk to me. He wouldn't use the kids as an excuse to make contact, he would honestly talk to me. Don't throw stones people (bc some have), but as far as I'm concerned, he would have to earn me back. Yeah, I'm completly back on WAS mentality. He would have to REALLY SHOW me that he is going to treat me the way I deserve to be treated. The road home wouldn't be a guilt trip, but I'm not just gonna roll out the red carpet at the drop of the question.
But I have 0 expectations and honestly think he lacks the courage to do it. So I'm just focusing on me.
No stones, please. I'm just being honest.
Oh, my church is having a half day seminar on forgivness that I registered for. NOT planning on wearing makeup as I'm sure I'll be crying my eyes out.
The fact that I choose anger tells me that it's just a way of covering the pain/fear. I'm obviously not over the pain he has caused me over the past 2/3 years of the M.
So I think asking how I get over the hurt is the real question, and I still don't know the answer.
The fact that I choose anger tells me that it's just a way of covering the pain/fear. I'm obviously not over the pain he has caused me over the past 2/3 years of the M.
Thank you for acknowledging that possibility.
No one wants to feel the pain. Unfortunately the truth is often that the only way to heal is to feel. The only way past it, is through it...
I have began to notice that. I would cry every now and then, but it wouldn't be because of my sitch, being lonely or anything like that. I became aware that I was feeling as if I were reliving some of the bad memories again and the pain would feel very real and raw.
And then I would ask myself, after all this time, why are you feeling like this? Because I was so busy being a waw or lbs that I was distracted.
So I allow myself to feel the pain, but not obsess over it. Before I can give love to any future r I need to love that hurt person inside of me. I think confronting the pain, feeling it and allowing myself to let it go (can't be an excuse forever) is how to start. At least that's what feels right.
I do know it's right there on the surface though BC it's so easy for that raw pain to sneak up on me.
That's interesting, Jammie... I know my W told me many times that she would be really sad... and I while I hoped it had to do about the two of us, I came to understand that may not have been the case.
FWIW, consider that you being a WAS may have very little to do with your H. Your H may just be a target for your angst as even the little things he may do or try to do "right" rub you the wrong way. Not because of him, but because your hidden pains are surfacing... whether you want them to or not... because you may never have really worked through them...
Having said that (the NEW "but", here), if that is the case... and your H is very aware that you want to leave... and has chosen to leave, himself...
Since your M is already dead... you may as well lay it on the line for him and let him know that you're realising that a lot of what is going on for you may not have anything to do with the sitch and that while you understand his desire to move on, that you will work on your issues and that if possible, you might consider discussing the two of you again in the future...
Make sense?
Of course, that's just my opinion. Totally up to you and others here may have a different opinion...
I like the challange you gave me. Did I leave bc of H or was it something else? Damn good question. I'm gonna have to sit on that one for a while and do some good inward looking.
That being said, the man that he is right now is the same man that I walked away from nearly 7 months ago, which is why I have let go. I have experienced so much personal growth during this time that I will no longer accept a marital situation like the one that I left, EVEN IF he was not my sole reason for leaving.
Is that wrong? Selfish? Unrealistic? WAS bsychobable?
Think about this for a bit.
Why are you focused on his negative traits at all?
Your M is dead.
If he was a friend, would you focus on those traits?
I am friends with people who have traits I'm not hugely fond of. Yet, I am still friends with them. And I don't spend my days thinking about their stuff that pisses me off.
I think I could actually be friends with my W. I'm just not sure I would want to be M to her. But then again, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about which of my friends I would want to be M to...
Make sense?
Yup, and I needed to hear that today. Seriously.
KD
were you a was? Have been reading some of your posts and was suprised to see that you are afraid to work on your marriage.
Me too.
Just not sure how to get over it. I know not to take H actions personally, even if they are directed at me. I BELIEVE a big ingredient is accepting the not so good and praising the good (should WAS want to reconcile)
BUT...what if you feel like you are sacraficing needs that are important to you? Like truly being appreciated, loved, a priority? Does this DB stuff mean shoving those emotonial needs in your back pocket and just surviving off of them being back? No one wants crumb cake.
I am afraid too. Really afraid. You would think after all the pain we have endured our heart would just scream out "enough!" and magicly turn off any love for them.
My heart and my head seem to have a mind of their own, seldomly agreeing with one another...
update...
yesterday H and I had our initial status conference at the court. it is going to be a long process. we have to have an actual trial bc we have children.
H was there early, and called my name out when I walked by. I could tell he wanted me to sit with him. I just said hi and kept walking. I didn't sit by him in the court room either, but he kept staring at me. As soon as it was over I left.
I met my gf for happy hour and had a blast! She confessed that H made it appear that he has cut all ties with me and only briefly talks with me to discuss the girls, which we all know is a lie. Kinda hurt to find out that I am regarded to as a dirty little secret. But, I realize that has more to do with him than me. I let out go and enjoyed the rest of the evening.
.......................................................................................
I work the night shift in the hospital. I woke up around 1 this afternoon to a surprise. H Sent an old pic of my daughter and I to my phone. I thanked him for it. He told me it was his fav and then told me he had been watching the home made movie he made for us. it was our love story, complete with our fav music.
wow, shock. he opened up to me like this nearly one month ago. last time I wasn't so smart. I expected a reconcile, and when he went out of town with ow that night I reacted bad. I told him the next day that he was free and that I was going to file. I was served a few days later, lol.
so this time I knew better. I pretended as if I were a friend that he was talking to so that my emotions would be in check. It did get personal though. I shed a fee tears, but we were texting so he doesn't know.
he once again told me he wanted his family back, wished we could go back in time, said he didn't treat me right, said that everything was just out of control and wished he could stop it. said he didn't give out his all and felt there wasn't anything we couldn't handle. H also said he wanted to show his girls that their parents love each other and put each other first regsrdless of what is going on. Wow.
He told me he was getting butterflies talking to me. he said that everytime he sees me he wants to hold me so tight. This is where I was honest. I told him that all of those times that he would hug/kiss/flirt with me were confusing for me. I told him that gave me hope.....and then he would dissapear again. I acknowledged that he was sorting out a lot, and that I kept my distance for a reason. I told him that it was best for me not to see him when we switch the girls bc I am focused on moving forward with my life, and that not having these confusing interactions helped me to let go. He said he understood.
H has made it obvious that he wants us back together, and it seems like he is scared. I completely understand that. I'm not planning on initiating any convo between us. This is part of his growth. Love is strong and makes you brave. If he truly wants his family back together God will give him the spirit to stand up for it. This is a big 180 for me, letting him find his solution.
So, I'm not holding my breath waiting for a text. Still living my life and loving myself. I've got plans with my bff (who lovingly says "well letts see what he's made of", and 2 papers to write for school.
As for the divorce, there is lots to do and more paper to file. He knows if there isn't any forward movement in the case it will be dropped, per the courts. I'm thinking it's best not to do anything official for now or to push/discuss it.
were you a was? Have been reading some of your posts and was suprised to see that you are afraid to work on your marriage.
Hi Jamie, just saw this.
I will sometimes refer to myself as a WAS or WAS in the making.
If we go by the DB definition, that a WAS is a spouse who is disenchanted with their M and is planning their escape route, then no.
I DID find that I was seriously disenchanted with my M about 5 years ago. I had given up and had enough with being (what I'm currently calling) my W's "beck and call boy". I had given up competing with the phone for my W's attention. I had given up on the idea that my W and I would ever spend time alone, together. And I fully immersed myself in my work as a way to escape my disappointment, under the guise and rationalization that I was trying to financially provide for the household (a complaint of my W's). I was also tired of being "volunteered" for stuff that I would not have normally volunteered for and I also was tired of being chastised for anything that I did as being "not good enough".
One of the most recent and last accusations by my W was that I had never really engaged in the M and had been (not her words, but paraphrased) a WAS as early as a year into our M. Which she then suggested was when and the reason why, she began to loose interest in me and the M and began to live her own life.
I ended up leaving my W and home (and kids
) after six months of being blatantly excluded from "family outings" (ie. where my W would take the kids to a bonfire party or some such and when I found out and mentioned I would join them as soon as I could, my W would tell me that if I was going, she would NOT be going).
When I found DB, I FELT like the LBS. I'm pretty sure I'm the LBS. And in some ways, we are all WAS in certain respects, which was our own contributions to the break down of our Ms.
My fear to work on the M? Really is based on my own belief that my W is not someone I actually want to be M to. I certainly thought I did want to be M to her at one time. And I also certainly remember some great times we had together. Yet I feel that there were many things about my W that I "overlooked" which I feel I no longer can. And I really could not be M to her unless she changed.
I certainly know / believe that by changing ourselves, we can change our sitch and often our spouses change because it would be near impossible to keep doing their same behaviours in the different sitch.
I just don't know if my W could change. Or would change. Or maybe... she really is the person she wants to be and there is someone "out there" who will fit perfectly with her personality. It's just not me.
If my W does not change, I fear that I will again revert to co-dependent behaviours which I will not risk. Like putting a bottle in front of a recovering alcoholic... I don't know if I'm strong enough to resist...
In a world of "lesser of two evils"... this (separated / divorced) is the better of the two, for me, for my W, for my kids...
I want to be very clear, that I am really afraid of the co-D stuff. This is NOT about my W, rather about me reverting. I thought I could resist, I knew that about myself. I had been through "counselling" to work through this stuff. I felt very capable and was certainly willing to overlook my W's negative stuff and appreciate her positive stuff.
I'm rationalizing...
Because I fear the work necessary...
I am not an example of success if success is measured by a saved M... but I know DB... and I encourage everyone to do their best to work on themselves and stand for their M and work towards reconciliation... unless there's abuse... because I believe in M...
Maybe as I keep working on myself... I will feel safe enough in a R and possibly a M... I'm sure I will be more cautious... at least that's how I feel, right now...
DB works. I am convinced of that and believe there's many examples of restored M's who have used DB...
Don't give up or give into your fears, just yet... you probably have no idea how strong and persistent and resilient you can be. I've lasted the better part of 1.5 years standing and DBing...
I believe that DBing can help you have the M that you want with your H. And if not... because not all Ms can or should be saved... at least you have an opportunity to grow through this experience and become an even better person that you already are, ready for a new R that may come along one day.
If you do want your M back. If you are willing to get past your fears.
Then the next time your H puts out the feelers about "getting the family back", you may ask him what he is prepared to do about it. Ask him if he is prepared to go to counselling. Ask him if he needs more time.
And if he says he will go to counselling, ask him to find a pro-M counsellor.
But...
He WILL have to ditch the OW, eventually, if the M is to be saved. You may have to remind him of that.
And then...
keep on moving forward with your life and see if he takes this next step to the plate...
Wow KD, ( sorry jc, don't mean to hijack) what a raw and heartfelt post. Does your W know all of this? A sorry I don't know the history of your sitch. it just seems that you had so much pain and hurt, and the way I interpreted what you wrote almost sounds as if there are things you have not told her about?
Sorry again jc- kd's post just hit me hard.
Does my W know? IDK.
The reality is, that is in the past. I have learned and I hope I have made the changes in myself that will help me to not follow that path, again.
I am sure my W has a different perspective and her's is no less valid than mine.
Right now, I do not have the choice to R. IOW, my W is not talking to me about a future together. Unless that happens, it's not a choice for me.
It is what it is, for me. For those who have that choice, what appears to be the case for Jamie, then why choose out if there's a possibility to choose R?
kd, it's nice to see the more vulnerable side of you. Makes you seem...more real.
I've been seeing it in your posts to zig, too.
KD,
Deep introspection. I understand what you mean when you say you arent sure your W is someone you want to be married to anymore. Are you two still living together? It sounds like you are emotionaly done, yet still going through the motions. Shoving your emotions in your back pocket for the sake of keeping the fam together can't feel good and definatly screams of co-d behavior.
I am dealing with that myself. I dealt with an unbearable amount of pain in order to maintain my "family". I was unable to say no to unhealthy situations b/c of the guilt of breaking up my family and fear of being without him. Heck, I even let H and his then OW/OW daughter live in the basement of OUR home. So unhealthy. Not anymore though. I know it's ok to demand more, because I am worth more.
Such a battle, the fight to save something you so believe in -vs-pursuing your personal happiness.
OW is no longer in the picture, as I had suspected 2 weeks ago. Your suggestion is genuis. I know it's only a matter of time 'til he starts the "I would love for my family to still be together" texts. I will reply with "what are you willing to do for that to happen?". I don't think he realises that THIS is the moment to rise to the occasion. This is the moment where you stand and fight for your family-because my girls and I are worth fighting for.
No further communication since yesterday. This is how it ended...
H-everytime I see you I just want to hold you so tight
me-I have to be honest though, those times were hard for me. I would get my hopes up after days like that and then....you would just disapear again. I felt like I lost you all over again. That's why I didn't want to meet to switch the girls. It's easier for me to let you go if i don't have to see you.
H-I can understand that
That was it, no more texting. Wondering if I made him feel guilty? It's the truth though. Um hello, if you want your family so bad then stop going away. I think he's working through his issues right now and possibly mourning the loss of the R with OW.
If it is meant to be, it will be. I stay out of his head and just keep living my life. I'm proud to say that I realy am happy
I know I'm a great woman and that with or without him, I'm going to live an amazing life.
bustingout,
It's ok! I'm not offended, if something helps, go for it!
We are one big db family after all.
Hmmm I'm considering something brave. I was the orig. WAS and I know H still feels the sting. He has opened up to me twice now about wanting our family back together. I keep waiting for him to make the bold step, but what IF he is waiting for me?
After I go home and get some sleep I'm going to send a text. Something like
"you said there wasn't anything we couldnt fix. I agree. You said you wanted for your family to still be together, I agree with that too. What steps do you think we need to make that would allow that to happen?".
And then leave it at that and wait. Thoughts?
"you said there wasn't anything we couldnt fix. I agree. You said you wanted for your family to still be together, I agree with that too. What steps do you think we need to make that would allow that to happen?".
And then leave it at that and wait. Thoughts?
I think it's worth a shot.
Every sitch is of course, unique. While we can look at a sitch and based on general info, apply certain DB methods. Also, DB really is about doing what works, so a specific DB method can and should be modified to our specific sitch if it works.
And, when something that we are doing is not working, do something different.
I suspect that LRT is not the method for you right now and I do think that asking him to make a statement as to what he wants (which will likely be based on how he feels
right now) is appropriate.
Let's see what's on his mind.
Then we can look at possible course of actions and DB methods to apply.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So consider that I say I'm not sure I want to be M to my W.
That's how I feel...
right nowAnd that is likely how my W feels...
right nowThat can change for us at any time and then change again. And we may not verbalize that to each other and / or the feelings are polar to how the other is feeling, at the time.
While my W has not yet said she'd like to try, she DID go to counselling with me about Nov of 2010. It lasted three sessions and I gave up, as I felt she really was on a path to use counselling to convince me that we were better apart. Who knows? Maybe if I would have stuck to it... again, that's the past and no point me dwelling on it.
The point is, as I mentioned in my previous post, there was a time when I DID want to be M to my W, regardless of any negatives that I knew about her. No doubt it was the same for her.
As they say... If I knew then, what I know now...
Things could be very different for us if we had applied DB to our sitch, 5 years ago...
Statistically, it appears very common that both spouses do regret a D at some point in time, after the fact. That they regret not trying harder to work things out. What is almost equally as common, is that it appears many people will never openly admit that.
I think what I'm really trying to get at is, "
when" I finally have the thought that maybe I would like to be M to my W, and it does not mean to say that option would be available, well... I don't want any regrets...
She COULD change. The traits that I feel are negative might be rationalized as positive. Or those traits might disappear completely or "be fixed" by her. Just as could be, for me.
I certainly don't want to live out my life thinking that I made the biggest mistake in my life M my W. And I sure don't want to live the rest of my life rationalizing that I made the best choice to D her... "...
and here's the reasons why..."
~~~~~~~~~
So, let's see what he has to say...
And from there we can look at what you might do. What GAL and 180s you might want to do. What things in yourself you can change...
That will make you a better person than you already are...
A person that only a fool would leave...
And maybe your H might end up being a man that only a fool would leave...
Make sense?
Wellll, I did it, exactly like I said I would.
He did a 180, just like last time. After feeling my distance he was saying things like
-do we have to accept this
-i would still love for my family to be together....blah blah blah
Yet when it came time to act on those desires he said things like
-honestly I'm scared right now
This time, He was even more open about wanting us to be together, and when I asked my question (above), he said
-my thing is, will it be the best thing?
I answered
-if we make it, if we treat each other the way we wish we had last year
And then no more discussion.
__________________________________________________________
I had a suprising reaction! I was so turned off. I didn't say anything. My perception of him changed in that second. I saw him as a young boy who was unable to stand up for me or our family. No judgement, this is his life too. I'm just not interested in pursuing a R with someone like that. The person he has developed into is not the person I want to share my life with.
And here's the funny part! After having that "no hope" feeling, I would cry, pace, cry, beg to God...but none of that happened. Felt weird. I tried to cry, felt like I was supose to-but my mind nor my heart cared to go there anymore. I felt...fine, great and serene even.
I have a pic of us on my night stand, we are hugging each other. I use to look at it and would wish to feel his arms around me. This time when I saw it I had a different reaction. I looked at it and smiled. I recognized him as a man that I had great memories with and was once madly in love with. And then...I just put it away. No anger, sadness, remorse, anything! I appreciated that time in my life for what it was and then released it.
Guys I feel great! Did I just move on?
I know it is only a matter of time 'till those texts start again, and I know what my reaction will be. For the first time ever it will be "I am no longer interested in a relationship with you". I don't feel the slightest tinge of ANY negative emotion when I type or think that! I just feel...happy.
I have no desire to act in anger in any way. I don't have the desire to see or speak to him either. I'm just done, ready to move on.
This experience has allowed me to grow so much that his negative drama/situation is no longer attractive to me.
KD, I really have to thank you for the peace of mind that I have right now. You gave me the courage to ask that question, and his answer has freed me in so many ways. Thank you so much <3
Well, a couple things...
First, don't assume that you just drop the rope and you will be emotionally fine. It COULD be true, although it's certainly likely that those emotions will roll a few more times for you...
Second, I'm going to point at the following statement you posted:
I have no desire to act in anger in any way. I don't have the desire to see or speak to him either. I'm just done, ready to move on.
The bold part...
Why not?
Because here's the thing...
If you don't "feel" anything... no animosity towards him...
Why would you not want to speak to him or see him?
Because truth be known... I've spent a LOT of time trying to convince myself that I didn't care... yet would not speak to my W... did not want to see her...
Because I was angry at her...
I've been working on being friends with my W, now...
Because I don't care...
I do know that my D9 cares... and she likes that we are being "friendly"... and I think my D14 does too, but she'd never admit it...
I know you don't have kids, so there's no motivation...
I have three very good female friends who I KNOW have my back... Yet, I had dated and been intimate with these woman back in my late teens / early twenties. And the break ups weren't necessary happy and mutual...
They liked me, I liked them... as people... as friends... and the Rs may have not worked, but ultimately, we still like each other... and can be friends... no problem seeing each other and talking to each other... do it often... like daily... bff's... without the benefits...
There are things about my W that drive me crazy... and I'm pleased as punch that I don't have to deal with them every day, now... I can imagine meeting her on the street and chatting... talking with her at parties... maybe even going for coffee... with her and her new H... or bf...
So I'm working on that... 'cause I really think that's OK... because at the end of the day... I ain't going home with her... and I'm not gonna M her...
Like you, though...
My W still has different plans...
She SAYS there's "no reason to be angry and bitter with each other"... says that she is "pleased that we can get along with each other
for the sake of the kids" (emphasis mine, and I do so because it certainly DOES emphasise that's the only reason) and also stating some boundaries about HER friends and MY friends, as though never the two shall meet... or maybe more specifically, that her friends are off limit to me...
I'm doing a bit of speculation and mind reading, of course... or even elaborating a bit...
What I'm saying there is... it is very clear, she wants nothing to do with me...
And I'm guessing... that's anger speaking...
If we don't want to see someone or speak with them... that means there's probably something there...
I am slowly socking the money away that I need to file D.
But... like these ex-GFs that I am really good friends with... I say... why not...?
Jamie
I'd urge you to learn to embrace some ambiguity. You've changed your mind and heart several times in a short span.
both of you have and even though your last post sounded at peace, so did the one with the opposite message before.
Just take some breaths. You do NOT need to decide anything so fast OR with such finality,
If you still see him as a "boy" you don't want to be married to, in a week, and in a month and in 6 months, THEN you can decide to decide.
No need to know for certainty this second. That "certainty" is an illusion when you force it anyhow. You're so determined to know one way or the other
that you are pushing and pulling.
No wonder he is afraid. The anger you feel is just under the surface and I think he senses it a lot. I don't know how he mistreated you but both of you seem to be escalating things when anger flares, which is often.
Have you considered going to Retrovaille? Look into it. It's a very healthy thing for marriages in trouble.
even if you do end up divorced, you're likely to get along a lot better and to see things his way more. OR at least not interpret his actions so negatively.
For instance, I thought his interest in meeting the daycare providers was totally reasonable. I'd have been concerned and hurt if my h showed no interest in that decision.
Just another point of view.
Do look into Retrovaille though.
It has worked miracles, and I know we got a lot out of it in just one weekend (but do the follow up program too).
KD and 25,
I appreciate the both of you walking with me through this. Such patience you have!
KD I did give myself time to think about what you said. Oh, and we have two daughters, ages 2 AND 3. Yes, you were right, that bold part had anger running through it, which is a stronger version of pain. My innability to let that go will only hurt the situation for everyone involved, esp our daughters. So yes, I do need to gut check my pride at the curb and work on being friends for our daughters. I did a great job of that today (more on that in a min)
25 I totaly get what you are saying. What I really really needed to do was let go, my every thought was wrapes around the sitch. I think that's where my inner peace has come from, knowing that I can be happy in this moment regardless of what is going on. Have I totaly hung up the M? Hmm, I love the man, but it is in God's hands. No I'm not pushing for divorce or begging to reconcile. I'm actualy proud of my ability to maintain an inner calm despite the world around me. Been pretty darn good about staying centered lately.
With that being said, I have some interesting updates. Just a quick glimpse of the past real quick...
June 1st-H opens up about wanting family back together
June 2nd-H does 180
June 17-H openly loving/flirtatious, says ILU
June 25-discover he and OW are over
July 2-initial status confrence at court
July 3-H opens up about wanting family back together
July 5-H does 180
Talk about a lot of flip flopping. During this time I had maintained the status of being there, waiting. I really felt taken for granted. His last 180 a few days ago contradicted everything he had said 2 days prior. I really had enough of his emotonial rollar coaster. Our last convo did end on a positive note. Although I felt detached I kept those feelinge sto myself and maintained a neutral position.
Today it started up again. He sent me a text asking what I would do differently if we were to try it again. We have had this talk a million times, he knows that answer. The following is our conversation:
H-hey if we decided to do this again what would change?
Me-Are you asking me to convince you to be with me?
Me-Cello I'm not about to commit myself to someone that does not love me and is not willing to put me first
H-No I'm not I'm just asking bc I wouldnt want you talking to anyone
Me-I'm not in a R with anyone. I would rather be single for the right reasons than in a R for the wrong. I'm single bc I dont want to be in a R right now.
H-So that means you wouldnt want me either?
Me-Why would I want to be with someone that only wants to string me along? Besides, in a few days you'll be saying things like "idk"
H-sorry I bothered you
Me-At one point in my life I was madly in love with you, but that chapter in my life is over now. I have no desire to be in a relationship with you. The girls have parents that love them and thats all that matters now.
H-ok
Now, don't go throwing stones at me. I am proud of standing up for myself. 25 I feel like you are going to ask me if I was trying to punish him
. Honestly, no. I deserve someone that will commit to me and I feel good for standing up for myself. It wasn't said to get him back, make him suffer or anything like that. I really meant it.
Two hours pass...
H starts sending me pics and videos of us and our daughter's milestones (1st steps, 1st bdays...)I thanked him for the pics.
And then he starts to open up, but in a different way. He begins by talking about how happy we were, where did that go, he wishes he tried harder. I place myself in the friend position, as if I were an old friend he were opening up to. I'm proud at my ability to be friendly, supportive and not affected by the conversation.
He then talks about how he thought he was happy but that he isn't. He thinks he knows what he has to do to be happy but doesnt know if it's too late. Do I assume he is talking about us and manipulate the conversation? No. For all I know it could be a number of things. But I did tell him this:
If I could give you any advice, it would be this: On your death bed, what would be your biggest regret? And then live your life so that you wouldn't have that regret.
Again, am I assuming he is refering to me? Nope. I would tell any friend that. Yes KD, I said friend. I did a good job of being his friend tonight. What if his regret is leting OW get away? I would treat it as if his regret was not owning a snake, or going sky diving.
He did end the conversation in a unique way. He said goodnight Mrs. Garcia, sweet dreams. (our last name is Garcia) Interesting....
But still remaining peaceful, focusing on being his friend and not basing my emotions on his life decisions.
Two hours passed
My highlighter isn't working so I can't point out the way I see you go off track at times.
Over all you know your anger is a huge issue for you, even when you don't see it as anger. Even when you rationalize it or mask it'
but I know that intellectually, (although maybe not emotionally yet)
you get how bad the anger is for YOU and your d's, not to mention what it does to your marriage.
When your h asked you what would be different if you were to reconcile
I thought he asked the most reasonable & mature question ANYONE could ask,
It means HOW WOULD THE MARRIAGE BE BETTER/DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE?
and you instead took it as a challenge. Why not tell him how YOU would have changed? What your work is on you...how YOU feel you have grown and how you would approach things or problem solve differentlyl...b/c if you cannot think of one change YOU have made or would make
then what is the point of his efforts?
There is some sort of competititve thing going on I can't wrap my brain around.
Like each of you wants the other one to "Change first" which I see often enough. It's is partly ego, partly youth (sorry, you both seem to do the yo yo thing a lot, for a couple with two kids)
and partly b/c you BOTH FEAR BEING HURT AGAIN...
Do you feel as if you are the only one of you two, "entitled" to fear rejection?
Don't just blurt out "of course not!" --really think about it and see if you don't harbor a double standard deep down. OR a few...
Look, I think you are making headway internally, but it's NOT manifesting outwardly in your interactions with him....and isn't that important?
Also note how much of your last post concerned HIS words and HIS behavior.
Honey, you gotta take the focus off of him and your "score keeping" and measuring what YOU think of HIS PERSONAL INNER WORK,
and keep the mirror up on yourself to make the changes YOU can make b/c
again,
you are the only person you control.
And please slow your clock down. You look for changes and patterns in hours and days, and that's not how it works.
Also the progress and growth we hope you both will experience,
is Not linear. Okay?
2 steps forward, one or 4 back, and then 6 steps forward, etc
I appreciate that stern talking to. Felt like I needed to be shaken/waken up.
I want to report on a few interactions, but first some changes I have become aware of.
In the past I was a little flashy with my body. Not embarrassing or inappropriate, but I would choose tops that were possibly a tad bit too tight or low cut. I am proud of my body, but in honesty I was using it to attract attention. In my M I felt empty, and so unconsciously I sought attention from males to fill me up, give me a sense of worth. I was the mom at the kiddie pool in the string bikini, if you feel me.
Even worse, my affair. I was unhappy, and instead of looking inward I turned to another man's arms. Of course someone else can't fill you up with love, esp in an A type situation.
It was never a conscious decision, but at some point something changed inside of me. In thinking of what I want in a M, I realized it was a soulful connection, not one based off sexual chemistry. I saw the signal that my behavior was putting out, and did not want to continue attracting the same reactions. I don't want to be wanted for my body or appearances, I want to be loved for me, Jamie. I want to be in a relationship who values waiting to be intimate, and takes the time to foster a R with me first. My R desires have matured from fake instant gratification to appreciating real love. I respect the "true love" concept so much that I don't mind this limbo sitch.
My clothing and mannerisms have changed so much. I'm actually modest now, wanting my body to be private. I want people to see ME, not below the neck. I focus on making heartfelt interactions with everyone that I come into contact with. I even have a new tan line from wearing shorts and tank tops at the kiddie pool
. There are many opportunities for me to have a man at my home, but I'm incapable of feeling good about any aspect of a sitch like that. Life even gave me the opportunity to express my beliefs with 2 males that tried to "go there". I was polite, but stated how I really felt about it. And these 2 males have even more respect for me. I've learned how respecting yourself is the best example for you expect others to treat you. I'm feeling really good these days
_________________________________________________________________
Ok, so here are my updates...
25, I opened the door for intimacy with H, and this Monday it happened. H was at my home waiting for me when I came home from my night shift. It was an amazing powerful connection. Like this sitch didn't even exist. Afterwards we fell asleep in each other's arms for an hour. I stayed in bed while he got ready for work. He woke me up to tell me goodbye and kissed me twice. No real interaction since, but I know that is expected. I'm not affected by his distance, didn't knock me off my PMA platform. Again, I'm feeling pretty darn good.
This is where things get a little iffy-remember how I said I wanted to be in a committed R before being intimate? Um it applies here too. It was a great moment, and nice to see that we still have that connection. BUT, I don't really feel lined up with the thought of doing it again. Yes, we are M, but the reality is he really isn't any different from any other guy right now. I really really need to be in a committed R before being intimate again-including H.
I have also set some boundaries. This has less to do with the sitch and more to do with me making decisions that would need to be implemented after the D. For example...
H sent me some sexual pics today. I let him know that I valued our friendship and wanted to keep our relationship at that level. Told him I felt it was innapropiate to continue to act in a sexual way with someone that I am not in a relationship with.
H showed up out of no where today grabbing himself (before the pics). I let him know that it is innapropiate for him to show up unnanounced at my home, and there wasnt really a reason for his visits. Hinted at the future and that one day someone else will be in life, and pointed out how innapropiate this would be.
I use to give H a check for my half of the debt. This was mainly to see him/make my responsibility visible. I have contacted the creditors and am paying them directly for my share of our debt. I'm am doing this bc I like being responsible, not for any other reason.
Turned down his offer to watch the girls on his week. He wants this life, he gets to live this life. If my girls really needed me I would be there in a heartbeat. But I'm not helping him make his new lifestyle easier for him to live.
I would list more but we don't have much interaction. I only reply to his texts, I don't initiate them. I treat my responses as if he were a friend. I don't get mad if I don't hear from a friend for a week, and I don't do it with him either. I don't keep score cards or act in a manipulative way, so I have stopped doing that with him too. I appreciate my friends for their positive traits and do not harp on the negative ones, and I made the choice to treat him the same.
I feel amazing, I feel strong, I feel happy. I'm proud of myself and the amazing woman that I am. I know I'm not done growing (are we ever?) but I AM done shrinking away. For the past few weeks I have had no desire to work on the M or even think about being in a R with H. And that's ok. That's how I feel right now, and I know things can change in the future. But what feels amazing RIGHT NOW is getting out of his way, living my life and appreciating all of the amazing things in it.
sry this was so long!
note-the intimacy happened July 9th, LAST Monday
(copied from Vorlon)edited the sexes
Ahhh this is so true!
1. You are the prize
2. You are a good woman that any good man would want
3. You can't change the past
4. If your H is unhappy that is his problem to deal with
5. If you have issues, fix them but not for him
6. There is always someone else who will apprcieate you
7. There is always someone else in worse shape than you
8. If you want to be happy fix YOU first. You can't fix him.
9. Decide if you want to be married to the alien that has become your husband..If so, why in the world would you want that???
10. The sooner you get your head on straight and realize you can handle life without your current husband. The sooner you will get the husband you want and deserve. That may or may not be your current husband.
11. The pain will not go away or lessen until you face these things and take action.
12. It is all up to you. You decide how long you suffer. This is not negotiable.
Obviously the hospital has been slow tonight. Just wanted to post some of my thoughts on my sitch, 7 months in...
Now I understand why the detaching is so important. Detaching can take a loooong time. It seems to me that the longer that time period, the longer it takes for the WAS to really start their journey. For me, it means giving myself the space to mourn the loss of the M, of that special relationship that you cherished. That's why everyone says the old M is dead. I thought everyone was being mean, but now I get it. It has to be dead to you. You cannot have any hope that anything you do will bring about a change. It's hard to come to grips with that. It almost felt like an identity crisis-waking up to a life that you don't understand.
It doesn’t mean hating your S either or acting in ways that would cause them to justify why life is so much better without you. You really have to let them take that road, and you have to love them enough to get out of their way. There is also a great amount of respect for someone that is able to do this while respecting themselves and acting with dignity.
I can also see the beauty in this gift of time, as they say. No one is perfect, and we have all adapted certain habits that we would rather not have. This time is a precious gift-the time to reflect on ourselves and make any adaptations. There aren’t any excuses anymore, no one holding us back. It's time to get back in touch with US, fall in love with ourselves again. I'm pretty sure that just like me everyone else has put the family first. Nothing wrong with that, but now is that precious time to dust ourselves off and get some much needed me time. And when everything falls back together (it will for everyone, even if the picture is different than before), we will all be so much wiser, ready and complete.
ps I think everyone here is so amazing, you have been so inspiratonial. I hope our S realize how beautiful everyone here really is.
Just heard the song "what hurts the most" by Rascal Flatts and started to cry. I know I have to walk down my own path. It just hurts that something that was so special in my life now seems like a dream.
On a more positive note, I saw something today that made me smile...
when life knocks you down, calmly get back up, smile, and very politely say "you hit like a b!tch"
I find myself pondering the meaning behind "for better or for worse"
I guess right now I'm in the for worse part. H and I have to give each other copies of D paperwork before turning it in to the courts. H has not handed anything over or mentioned it, so neither have I.
I contacted him earlier this week about enrolling D3 in soccer and asked if he was able to commit to taking her to practice/games on his weeks. He was enthuastic, which is good. I am happy to see us working together as parents. Even on his weeks I plan to be at her games. This is not about pursuing him, but is about being involved in my daughter's life. If it were any other person I'd be there too.
Only one interaction to comment on-
H and I ml on a Monday, followed by a week of no contact. The following Monday he text me last min as I was headed out the door to drop the girl's off at H's daycare for them. (it was the beginning of his week with them) He started out with small talk, but I responded by telling him that I was busy at the moment and would have to talk later. He then responded that he wanted me to watch them so that he would not have to pasy for their care for the day. I politely responded 2 hrs later that I just noticed his text and had already dropped them off at the time we had agreed upon. He said it was ok and wished me a great day...lovebug. No responce from me.
I still do not have any desire to work on a R with him. His ACTIONS would have to consistantly match his words, and as of right now that hasnt happened for longer than a few hours. Perhaps God isn't done working on this man's heart yet....
But enough trying to figure someone else out
I can't express how happy I have been this past month! My sweet girls are such a blessing, I cherish every moment with them. I am so grateful for their little arms that wrap around me and their sticky kisses. I make every day with them as meaningful and memorable as possible. Never again will I take me blessings for granted.
On my days without them I zumba and cardio kick box it up! I love having a healthy positive outlet for expressing myself. The woman I have met are so much fun to be around. I'm even getting some muscle definition! I have also regained all the weight that I lost post turning into the LBS.
For the longest time I wasn't cooking, which is something I have passionatly started doing again. I even cook full course meals for myself when I'm alone! This week with my girls I'm looking forward to starting a new tradition-home made smoothies and ice cream crawling with gummy worms and other gummy critters. I love letting them help pick out and create our meals.
A friend told me something last night that brought tears to my eyes... "you are taking on full time school, night time shifts in the hospital, a divorce, single parenting and life all with dignity, grace and self respect-it's inspiring"
thank you
I also changed my name from jamiegarcia333 to strongerthanever-I like that much more, because I AM stronger than ever
How do you do it stronger? How do you stay strong?
April,
I was just reading your posts and my heat hurt for you. There were months where I would wake up feeling so gotempty inside and would spend my days crying, begging to God to bring my love back. .it is part of the process, but man its no way to live.
I think I got to a point where I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I was focusing on what was "missing" and not what I had to be grateful for. I knew I was a great person, despite the things I wish I could take back, and that I deserved to be happy. I also reflected on past heart breaks that at the time I thought I would never recover from.
And yes, I Assn happy
(posted too soon)
Yes I am happy now, but that doesn't mean that I don't get sad and cry every more and then. I love my husband SO much and the family we created together. And in about 2 months we very well will be divorced.
It will hurt like hell, but I know I will be ok. I know that I am a great woman, worthy of being loved. So are you. I won't place my self worth in someones hands that does not have my best interest at heart. And neither should you.
Wish I could pull you outside for some fresh air and a good walk. We are here for you. I have faith that every tear shed is making you stronger.
I do have one question for you to ask yourself. When will you allow yourself to feel happy again?
((((hugs))))
Stronger, I'm confused as I read your posts. I read through them, and it seems like you are waiting for him to change. That seems odd to me.
Your honesty is very helpful and I thank you for it.
I didn't see your posts in thinking about leaving, but I'll go take a look. You mentioned you had good reasons for leaving. Why has that changed? Why do you want a changed him and not the him he is?
Just curiuos.
AJ
Im not waiting on him to change (in order to be happy), but he would have to change in order for me to consider being in a R with him again.
If you look back you'll see I was a waw, and he DB me without even knowing it. But once the hype from that calmed down, I saw that he was still the same MSN I walked away from. I love him dearly, there's no denying that.
BUT, I need to be in a healthy relationship where I too feel like a equal partner that is loved and cared for. I need to feel appreciated and cared for. I use to think it was selfish to want that in a relationship, now I understand that's the basis of a healthy relationship.
It wasn't so easy for me to just walk out. At the lowest point in our m I was a sahm, no car, expired dl, no personal bank account...nothing. I completely depended on H for survival and my personal identity. It took 2 years to get where I am today, that's a long fight for my independence, but I am worth it.
I now have a full time job as a dod civilian, I'm a full time student st a university, I have my own apartment and last December bought my car. Complete change since 2 years ago.
And like I said, I love this man like crazy, but I'm also at a point where I'm ok that he just might not see r the way I see them. That he may not be capable of meeting my needs in a r. Make sense?
I'd rather be alone for the right reasons than in a R for the wrong.
Excuse the typos, its my darling phone, lol
suprise interaction today
H was out of a special ointment for D2 and asked if he could have some of my stash. Of course I said.
I was in the middle of making brownies for my girls and for a potluck at school when he arrived (with d2/3).
He kept commenting on how good the house smelled, and how he use to get excited in the old days when I baked. He laughed and made small talk. The girls and I danced in the kitchen while waiting for the first batch to cool. I love dancing with them.
I noticed H was just staring and smiling, like he was in the moment too. We all enjoyed brownies, and I sent some home with him. I bake for my co workers all the time, and I can't wait to bake for d3's soccer team
A few hours later H text me saying that he loved me so much as the mother of his children. He says that quite often.
Either way, it was a treat having a suprise "family" moment. I wasn't nervous and wasn't thinking about the past at all. When he left I was pleased to find that I easily returned to the happy place I was in before he even text me. It gives me real hope that we will be able to leave the past where it belongs and focus on our girls together as friends.
It was also really nice to see him genuinly peaceful and happy. I really am happy for him.
Nice to hear it was a good time and a good interaction.
Just for the sake of clarity, what changes exactly do you need to see in him? What's he said about those changes?
From what you posted, I can see a lot of confusion on his part - you changed radically in a short period of time where he wasn't necessarily aware he needed to change as well (I don't know, but speculating.)
So curious, what was his reaction to your stated needs?
AJ
This is something I have been thinking about, BC this is a discussion we have not had. Crazy, I know. I do understand how impossible it is to move forward without it. You can't just randomly text your needs in a r out of the blue, but I do plan on taking advantage of the next opportunity to discuss my needs in a future r with H. And its ok if he isn't wanting to meet them. These ate needs that would supply to any relationship, so it is good to have clarity.
I need to have quality time with my partner, at least once a week, even if its only an hour walk somewhere. I need to have daily interactions where my partner and I communicate about our day. I need to feel supported and like an equal when it comes to domestic matters. I need to feel spurted in my personal goals and lovingly allowed to have my personal hobbies and identity. I need affection, and not just sexually. I also need the acceptance that I will make mistakes, and a partner that is willing to work through difficult situations.
I would not ask for anything that I expect/want myself to give to my partner. I know life has its challenges and don't want to give the impression that I'm looking for Mr perfect. Do my needs sound unrealistic?
I do realize that you asked me what changes HE would need to make, and instead I went general on you. I believe I answered you this way BC right now I'm focusing on what it is that I need to slowly see with any man, and have dropped the expectation that he will be that man.
Forward thinking I think the next logical question would be WHAT will a person be doing that will demonstrate these qualities...I will touch on that tonight at work. Not sure why I'm wide awake at 4 am, but I know my 2 and 3 yr olds will be waking up much before I'm ready for them to
You never had that conversation? Your behavior felt justified to you? Your current behavior seems OK to you now?
It might be ok, but I can tell you as an outsider that it would confuse the hell out of me. I'd basically suggest that "my spouse is unhappy but having conversations in her head about me and to me. I get little fragments of those conversations. Not sure what to do about it." If I was your husband.
On the one hand, I get some of it. You are ending your marriage and blaming somebody else for it. I'm sure there are all kinds of crazy emotions around that.
On the other, it's all about you. Is that new? I dunno. But you are so self-centered in these posts, if I was your H I would be confused as well. Caught between my love for you, my pain at what you've done, your self-centeredness, my desire for my family to be together, and my own sanity.
More later,
AJ
Seems later came earlier than expected.
Look. You're hurt. You have hurt. The cycle continues. You are trying to make yourself ok.
I get that.
I am trying to play back to you what your husband may see. I know it is what I see. I am in no way trying to diminish your feelings or actions. They are yours and you are entitled to them.
But what I see in your posts is what I wrote. I see what would confuse any man or woman if you acted that way towards them.
What you described as your wants and needs earlier? Those are baseline easy to provide for from any partner. They are basic partner type principals if you ask me. I don't think you should have any trouble getting that IF YOU ASK.
But you will need to give as well. Do you know what your H expects and wants? I mean really expects and wants not just what you think he does?
Your posts seem confusing, but not "abandon all hope" level. It seems to me from what you described there is a problem but I'm not sure yet where it is. I do think to solve it, you'll want to start with better communication and less trying to hurt each other.
AJ
I never thought of my actions as being self centered, and I so appreciate your honesty in what you saw. H and I never communicated about our R needs. What I do know is that we are both hurt and waiting for the other to change or do the ice breaking.
What's holding me back? Pride, pain, ego, fear of opening myself up to rejection? Yes. Afraid to go there emotionally again after 7 months, yes.
This if making me cry and I don't even understand. But I do get what you are saying. It doesn't make since to leave the home, not communicate your needs and then build a huge wall of protection, only to cry about not having your family together or to focus on Hs behavior. I get it.
I need to communicate with the person that I love. The reason I have not is out of the assumption that it will inflate his ego and he will walk off thinking he won, that he feels inflated that I want to be with him and walk off with his chest in the air.
I don't think I've ever been so honest.
Seeing my own (crazy) words in front of me, it seems impossible to have a meaningful r with ego in the way.
I need to communicate to him everything. He prefers email, so I'm thinking I need to push my ego aside and be a big girl. My biggest concern is on how to communicate everything without it appearing as begging or pursuing AND while detaching from an expected outcome. I'm scared but I know I can do it. The D clock is ticking down, if I have to detach all over again after bringing to light all of these suppressed emotions then do be it.
If I may, let me suggest a few things:
1) think about it before you write anything to him. Seriously. You do NOT want to waffle as that will just destroy trust. You have to mean it.
2) You said your ego is part of the problem. I think there's more. But I will say that ego, in the scheme of things, is worthless if you watch the love of your life and your family walk away because of it.
I get it. Nobody wants to be hurt. But everyone does want to be the hero. You may not get what you want. You may not fully know what you want. But you have the chance of a lifetime to make things great. To learn the lessons and really make things great.
What I do know is that we are both hurt and waiting for the other to change or do the ice breaking.
What's holding me back? Pride, pain, ego, fear of opening myself up to rejection? Yes. Afraid to go there emotionally again after 7 months, yes.
I totally see this in your posts. Your words ring painfully true. If that helps
I think you are both hurt and I think his confusion makes it harder for him than you. You don't have a huge window of opportunity I would think. But you do still have a choice whether now or later. Your choice is how you handle things. You have to accept that his choice is just as valid.
Be brave. Take the risk and go get what you want. You don't have to give up your pride or ego for this, but you can set it aside and realize there are much bigger and more important things you want in the long term.
I appreciate your honesty and consideration of another side to things. I really do. I think that says a lot about you.
Peace,
AJ
Thank you AJ. I will not waffle, nor will I allow myself to continue to act from a place of fear or anger. I will post my email after I send it.
Well, email is sent. I'm just going to be still and quiet for now. Here's a copy of the email...ps this was huge for me
Marcelo,
You recently told me that you regretted not trying harder in our relationship. My biggest regret is failing to communicate with you. For the past 7 months I have been assuming that you understood how I felt. I also continued to justify my actions based on the past, and put up a wall to protect myself.
You can be loved, or you can be right, but you can't have both. What's the point in me being right if in the end it means losing the man and family that I love? That is why I am writing you, the possibility of rebuilding our relationship is more important to me than my pride.
I want to start by going back to December, when I decided to leave our home. I did not walk away from you and our family because I did not love you, or because of another man. At that point in our relationship I truly believed that I was in a relationship where I was not loved, not cared for and felt taken for granted. I believe in our marriage and family so much, and it took A LOT to make me feel as if I could only be happy if I walked away from our relationship. To best describe it, I felt trapped in a home where I felt I gave so much to someone that didn’t even notice me. I do not say this to make you feel bad, I just want you to understand where I was emotionally at that time.
YES, at that time I was in an affair, but understand he is not the reason that I left. It was never my intention to leave you for another man. By that point I had emotionally checked out of our relationship and someone else just happened to come along. To be honest the relationship was more of an emotional band aid than anything, something to distract me from the pain that I was feeling.
To be honest all I really wanted was for you to appreciate me and to "wake up". I never wanted any of this to get so messy and painful for our family. But here we are, 7 months later...both regretting letting things get so out of hand and not sure how to repair things. The only thing I know is to be honest and communicate with you. I have been so quiet all this time because I was just scared of opening myself up to being hurt again. I have been busy playing victim since December that I haven’t allowed myself to think about what it would take for us to move forward.
I can't even imagine how betrayed and hurt you felt when you discovered that I had been unfaithful. I know that being able to trust and feel secure in our relationship is something that you struggle with. Your fears are more than valid. If we were to pursue a relationship again your trust and love is something that I would never again take for granted. I had a hard lesson in discovering how damaging outside relationships can be, and how they prevent the real relationship from healing and moving forward.
You have said that you are worried that I would be looking for "something better". I planted that seed of doubt in your head early in our marriage by judging you about your weight and not being the supportive friend that you deserved. I so wish I could take that selfish time in my life back. The honest truth is, I've been on my own for 7 months now, and I have yet to find another man that could begin to take your place. Yes, I have gone on dates, and I always found myself comparing them to you. Regardless of how good someone may sound on paper, they couldn't fill that place in my heart like you do. When I am close to you, when I am in your arms, when I kiss you-my soul is at peace. I don't know any deeper way to describe it. The reason that I have been single for the past few months is because I realized how in love with you I still am. For me being with another guy would be settling, and I don’t want to settle. It doesn't feel right to have any other man by my side or in our girl's lives. I'm not gonna lie, this has really sucked and been painful, and yet I still love you unconditionally and am committed to you.
You asked me what would be different if we were to try again, and I really want to answer that. You would be my equal, my partner. Our relationship would be my biggest priority, because without that strong foundation everything else just falls apart. Alone time for us at least every other week would be a must-at some point we stopped making time to nurture our relationship. You would have the space to have an identity and life outside the home. I have learned how important it is not to lose yourself in being a parent or spouse, you need your space too. When you need to talk I will listen, when you need to cry you have my shoulder, when you feel down you would have my encouragement and when you are mad you would have the space to work things out. You would also have my undying word that never again would I go outside of our marriage for any kind of fulfillment.
With that being said I think it is fair to tell you what I need from a relationship. I need to feel like my well being is important to you. I need to feel your presence as a parent with our children and a partner in our home. I need to feel supported in pursuing my personal interests. I need affection, I need date nights or quality time alone together. I need to feel safe that should we have a disagreement that we can cool down and talk about it in an appropriate way. I also need to feel loved and accepted for who I am, flaws and all.
I realize that I have been writing this as if you still wanted to be married. During this time apart from one another you may have decided that you would rather not spend the rest of your life with me, and I have come to accept that possibility. This is your life too, and I want you to be happy. I don’t want to give the impression that I am writing this to convince you to come back-if you are content with moving forward with our divorce then I fully support it. No matter what, I will always love you. I am more so writing this to attempt to heal the past so that our future can be better-whether that be as husband and wife or as parents to our little girls. I hope this email can serve as a healthy start for us to begin communicating more openly.
I know this was long, there is a lot I wanted to express to you. I appreciate you taking the time to read it.
That has to be the strongest thing I've ever seen somebody do. No matter what happens now, and I think you should plan to wait for a while, I think you did the right thing. Remember to not waffle on the things you wrote.
I did notice in there that you blamed him for some of it. I would suggest tabling that line of thinking for the near term. In other words, somebody has to go first, and I suggest you let him and hold off with any accusations. In this case, learn to be a great listener at this point.
I'm proud of you!
AJ
Aj you helped me so much. That one question, do I feel justified with MY actions, man that was so deep for me. I felt stupefied, lol. Its like you took the book of knowledge and slapped me with it.
Now I see what 25mlc meant about keeping the mirror on myself. I kept posting the victim. It feels so good to put that down.
And yes I was selfish, and sadly, I now see that was nothing new for me. Always expecting h to reach out, heal, show me love.
I now see that I am not the only one that is hurt, that is scared, that needs healing. Just because I was the one who left doesn't mean I can't be the person to reach out and offer what is need here.
I do agree that it will probably be a while till I get a response, if ever. If I were in his shoes, I would be scared and unsure if what I read was real. I would need to know over a period of time. Not by words, but by my heart.
I won't lie, I was checking my phone for something, anything from him today in response. But more realistically, its not like I asked him if he wanted to get ice cream, this is a lifetime commitment to someone. That's huge.
communication needs to occur, but only on his terms when he is ready. I will not repeat my past behavior and play the blame game. If they're are things he wants to own up to, he will do it on his time. I'm sure I have just as much to learn about his perspective and I look forward to it.
No matter what happens I have just learned a great deal about selflessness in a r. I don't even think he knows how much he has taught me. I really geek st peace right now. Here's to the future....
PS AJ I have not understood the dedication of the vets to this board, even years after their situation has passed. It says so much of a stranger to stick around and help others. I really appreciate you and the time you have spent working with me.
That was very, very powerful, STE. You may have no idea how many LBS are on this board who only wish to hear something like that from their WAS.
Allow what you wrote to sink in for your H. Anything could happen at this point...
or...
nothing could happen...
I truly hope you wrote that both as a forgiving release and an act of unconditional love...
and moreso...
with absolutely no expectations...
and move yourself forward... whatever the future may bring...
KD,
My only regret about the email is that I was wearing liquid eyeliner at the time, bc tears (and my eyeliner) flowed for hours
It was real, and it was from my heart. It was also a huge first for me. Even a few days ago it seemed crazy to show my H TRUE love when I myself felt emotionaly starved.
What AJ said really hit me, and I began to examine the logic behind my thoughts. If everyone in this world opperated with the mind frame I was in, everyone would be out for themselves, putting themselves first. I don't want to live in a place like that. I much prefer to live in a place where people put others first.
I have to be honest, I had been reading in on other people's sitch's and applying their own concepts. But what is the point in a WAS going dark? What the heck does that show? I really need to just focus on myself and the person I want to be.
And I really do not have any expectations. I honestly have come to accept the fact that he may have his own list of reasons for walking away. I'm not the only one hurting here.
What gives me the most peace is the belief that I at least gave him what he deserves-an explanation, love, space and a start at closure (should he decide to D)
I had a feeling this would bring to life emotions and hope, and it did. However I do understand how destructive expectations can be and I see where they kept me running in circles in the past. I am refocusing on detaching from any outcome. As far as H, I plan on giving him the space he needs, while in the long run focusing on building a healthy new R at least as co parents. Realistic enough, I think.
Unconditional love is my true 180 and am grateful to have embraced it.
your letter brought tears to my eyes. he is lucky to have someone that loves him that much...
Toni,
Thank you. I feel equally as lucky to have him to love so much. Whether it is reciprocated or not, it is still a beautiful feeling.
Journaling...
H text and called several times about minor things today. This is a first after a while of not much communication.
He knew I planned to send him an email the night I did it. He casualty mentioned that he hadn't read it, but we all know what they say about not believing anything they say.
H received my bill from the toll booths a few months back. While he could have given me the information to pay it, he is bringing the letter to me in the morning.
All things considered, I see these as positive. I know, stay warm, do not force anything, be open to him and continue to remain detached from any outcome.
What gives me the most peace is the belief that I at least gave him what he deserves-an explanation, love, space and a start at closure (should he decide to D)
I'm impressed. Keep that focus and understanding for as long as you can, m'dear.
And for the record, I don't feel I did anything except ask questions. You did the work and you still are. Don't forget the things you've figured out no matter what. Those are the real diamonds created from the pressure.
No expectations. What you gave is a gift and as such, you have no control how it is or is not used...
Peace,
AJ
Ugh-white flag-help
Completly unexpected blow up on H's end.
H is going out of town during his week with our daughters. He does not have enough $ to buy them a ticket, so they must stay, and he asked me to watch them. An extra week with my girls? Um yes!
Here's the thing, an extra week with my girls means the added expense of $200 for their evening daycare plus $50 for their Monday night sitter while I'm in school. I told H that I would be more than happy to watch the girls for him. I also brought to his attention that by doing so would I have to pay $250 in expenses. He told me that he could pay me $150, and that was it. He went on to tell me how he wouldn't even have any spending money. He even suggested I skip class so that I wouldn't have to pay for their $50 sitter. (I'm in an accelerated program, each class is 5 weeks; you miss two classes and you are dropped from the program) Is he crazy? Didn't say it, but thought it.
I was getting upset, but kept myself calm. When he quieted I stated that I would be happy to help him, but on the condition that he cover the expenses that I would incur. I told him that if he decided he wanted to proceed to let me know. I was 10 min late leaving for work and told him I had to go.
He began to yell at me, telling me how selfish I was. I didn't know what to do. I just felt hurt honeslty. He was yelling about how I can't stop him from going on his trip and then hung up on me.
Why? I know, focus on ME, on MY actions. But dang, really?
There is a difference between putting your partner first (which I realy have been trying to do here) and allowing yourself to be used/taken for granted. All emotions aside, demanding that someone do you a favor and come out of pocket $100 just to help you crosses the line in my book.
Am I wrong here? Honestly.
The fact that I am really hurt tells me that I need to do a better job detaching and dropping the expectation that my email changed anything. Thought I did that. Guess not.
Geeze why is it so easy for him to get angry and act out in crazy ways with me. I've never seen him act this way with anyone else...? I know, stop focusing on him. Just venting here. It is obvious that he is still on that roller coaster and I need to jump off and walk away from it.
Damn. I was prepared for silence but def not this
I need someone's perspective that isn't clouded with emotion.
I haven't followed your sitch from the beginning, so pls forgive me if i ask something that you've addressed in an earlier post.
This are the options i see:
- Swap weeks rather than do an extra one so your expenses stay the same (this can only apply if your routine is the same from week to week)
- Use the same sitter as your H if his is cheaper
- Do the week as extra and get him to give you the remaining $100 later, or make it up to you financially by watching your kids during your week (as a babysitter)
Hope this makes sense...
It does, and i appreciate your input
Problem with using his babysitter is I work night shifts, and she is not open to that option.
I do agree, there ARE other options out there and I am more than willing to be flexible to work with him. He didn't want to take them earlier or later (swap around weeks) bc he would not have the $ to pay for their sitter at that time. <----yeah, I don't get that one either.
Totaly open to working with him. It does, however, require another (RESPECTFUL)solution oriented person.
Journaling
Phew! Glad I let go of the crazy phone call issue. Why was I so hurt? Anyhow, after a crazy shift and mental distractions, I feel better about everything.
H could have been having a bad day or could still have some anger issues going on. Either way, the way that he chooses to handle his emotions are HIS choice. They have nothing to do with me, though I may be in the way when he feels like spewing. It's ok, I'm coated in anit-spew. It just won't stick or affect me
Not saying that he is child like, but one thing I keep in mind in dealing with my 2 and 3 yr old is that you can't teach manners with rudeness. No reason for me to ever be rude to him, regardless of the way he treats me. I don't have to interact with him when he is in crazy mode, and I don't need to feel guilty about politly drawing the line when it comes to the way I deserve to be treated.
Why did I make such a big deal about all of that again? I'm more interested in thinking about having chocolate creme pie for breakfast. isn't it so cool being an adult?
There is no way to know why he spewed at you. Just to state the obvious, he must have felt threatened somehow and lashed out at you.
Money is what he pointed to, but there's something else he's put significant meaning to (more important than money) that he just didn't share. For example (and I have no idea of course) he could feel like he's not a good provider (which translates to not being a good man, in many men's minds) because he can not afford to take the kids with him.
The reason I say the above is, he has his reasons and those reasons were important to him, even if his choice of how he expressed his fears was inappropriate.
You can choose to approach this directly, or indirectly, or ignore it.
If you choose to ignore it, then understand that means dropping it. IOW, the pattern most people would go into here is resistance and then resentment. ie. His money problem is HIS money problem and he had better man up and figure that out. I'll make sure to get him back for this.
Or...
You can choose to approach this directly. Ask him. Let him know that you understand money is tight for him as it is tight for you, as well. Or better, we say around her to just tell the spewing spouse, "I understand how you could feel that way. I am open to looking at other options to help work this out. Do you have any suggestions or thoughts?"
Or...
You can choose to approach this indirectly. Truth is, money is the reason on the table, and it is a valid problem, yet it is not THE problem. He's avoiding the problem by "running away" which is showing up as attacking you.
If you know he's otherwise comfortable talking with you, have a conversation with him. Use this as an opportunity to know what is going on with his life. You'd be looking to talk with him in order to find out what might be stressing him out (other than your R). Is he stressed because travel stresses him out? Is there problems at work? Does he have major problems with his car and he's going to have to spend a lot of money, there? Did he buy some toy that cost him "too much money" and now he's regretting it?
Once you begin to understand what's going on in his life (again, other than your R), you may start to see what's really bothering him and then you can look at how you can support him, without enabling him. IOW, allowing him to solve his own problems and supporting him in that.
Just some thoughts. Think about it for a bit and see which of the possibilities above are something you might consider based on what you want in your life and follow that path.
Great perspective!
H showed up at my work, though he didn't have the paperwork he came to drop off.
I was upbeat and pleasant. He asked if I was ok with still doing it if he agreed to the $250, to which I replied of course, I am here to help you whenever I can.
He opened up about why he is going, it is to baptize his nephew. He told me about the classes he would have to take, and that he was considering getting baptized himself. I told him that sounded exciting and that I was happy for him.
After he left I sent him a text. I thanked him for taking the time to calm down and then discussing the situation. I also told him that it said a lot about him that he was willing to see a different point of view and offer solutions. That's a first for him.
I'm ignoring the bad and praising the good. Goin elementary here folks
KD
I think I know what the problem might be.
The army pays him to provide a home/food for his family. Even though we areliving apart he is still required to allocate my share to me. For a while he wasn't and as a result I ended up being evicted from my home.
When this happened he laughed at me and mocked me. His only reply was for me to let him know when to pick up his girls so they wouldn't be homeless too. He had his own apartment and was partying it up.
I grew a back bone and went to his command. They made him set up an allotment to my bank account. As a result he had to terminate his lease and move in with a friend. He's been living there 3 months now.
On top of that, he is getting out of the army in November. He doesn't have a job or anything beyond November figured out. So technically he will be jobless and unable to provide his own home for our girls.
That's a lot to weigh on someones mind. Pretty sure that's it.
Believing to know his problem doesn't help to solve it though. It is his choice to continue living this way and I don't want to enable him. I have no anger towards the way he treated me during my eviction. He was so deep in his A and I understand it fogged his thinking back then.
I am glad that he hasn't come back just for the security, I can give him that much. Another issue for him could be the obstacles I have overcome and that I have continued to succeed, where he has been stagnant and dependent on others. Maybe he feels guilty about coming to me to help him after everything he has done? Just speculating.
A positive is that he DID come to me, and not ow (pretty sure she is gone though) or anyone else to watch our girls. I'm thinking that has to say something.
Regardless, I get 3 Weeks in a row with my girls next month, super score!
So the learning continues... There is always more than one perspective and you're learning that faster than most. Good for you.
And additional time with the girls? Score!
Remember to have no expectations. Rather, stay detached and watch what unfolds. You may be surprised that your speculations were wrong more often than not. That's where real understanding begins.
Great job!
AJ
Great job reflecting and understanding that it is all speculation. Also, there is a possibility that, to top it all off, he's still in resentment because of your original walking away on him.
Own your parts and your parts only and fix them, even if you never plan to get back with this guy. Sometimes we might think we've fixed them, simply by acknowledging them. Without practice, we don't know they are fixed or just stuffed. Your H is still a possible opportunity to see if you've fixed those things, again, even if neither of you want back.
You do sound great and I definitely see growth in you. Keep those positive changes going! Make them habits!
You point out some very interesting things that have come up for him and will come in the future. Note those. He will possibly react to them as they come closer and you could possibly be a target for either spew or false connection (if he looks to you for security).
Support him without enabling him. I think based on your posts regarding his positives and your own, the future looks good, no matter the outcome.
You guys are great, I really appreciate the time you spend walking with me through this. Thank you for your support and encouragement.
H is on 24 hour duty in the same building that I'm in. My shift started at 11pm, and around 12:30am he showed up. He looks worn down. Not like I've been up all night tired, but more like his soul looks tired. His eyes have lost their spark, his passion seems gone. I don’t think I’m speculating here, he’s just gone.
He opened up about work, about how xow (his supervisor) is being so mean and hard towards him. My intuition told me the R was over, but I didn’t focus on that aspect, just focused on listening to him. He dreads going to work every day. That [censored].
His leadership made him type a memo for me to sign in regards to his vacation. Basically worded that “because we are in the process of getting a divorce, I cannot take my girls out of the state…wife will be watching them during my week…”. Makes me wonder if his command is acting in ways that continuously reminds of that “oh yeah, we are getting a divorce so I should be talking/acting this way” OR if xow is acting that way towards him + being mean, for whatever reason. Kind of reminding him that she is the supervisor, he is the subordinate AND he lost his family/wife. No one knows for sure, just speculating again.
He has been under a bad spotlight with his leadership for the better part of 6 months. I hate that for him. Back when we were dating we were in the army together and I’ve seen his work ethic. He is such a hard worker. I hate it that his current leadership doesn’t see what a valuable asset he is.
XOW’s most appealing factor was her willingness to slide into my role and support/love right away when I was in WAW mode. I believe this bc that is what he bragged about, which makes me believe he was so happy to finally feel as if that need of his was being met. She went away to an army leadership development course and “everything about her changed when she came back”. Meaning that she was no longer buddy buddy with everyone (um, that IS how it should be…). I first noticed her absence about 2 weeks before she left for that school. IE the girl’s hair no longer smelled like her products, they weren’t talking about her or accidently calling me her name, they weren’t sporting her hair do’s, that kind of stuff. Needless to say, the way he presented it makes it appear as he felt like she was WAW #2.
Lord knows I may be waaaaay off with all of this, but it DOES give me a new perspective on things, his possible point of view. Holly cow if I were in his shoes I would feel like the victim! A crap ton of negatives in the short time frame of 7 months. Plus the quickly approaching unemployment date and uncertainty of his future…no wonder his soul looks so tired.
Bottom line: this guy needs some serious love and support and I’m gonna give it to him. Not to get him back, but bc this is a man that I love dearly and he needs to get that sparkle back in those eyes. Perhaps I went through the “victim” stage first so that I could be better equipped to help him through this?
This is so right on!!! My horroscope for today....
SO many nuggets of wisdom here
You have been waiting for it...waiting for your answer...and it is Now!
And, the answer...the answer, always and ever, forever and ever, the answer is Love!
Mercury has been in Leo since June 25 and moving retrograde since July 14. Now Mercury (your mind) aligns with the Sun (your Self) and an answer is here...but you need to make ready to receive it. You need to be quiet and attentive...you need to be still within yourself and thereby open your sacred space to the possibility...for only then are you ready to be touched by the gift, to be lifted up by the Wind of the Spirit.
Mercury retrograde is your time of opportunity to review, revise and renew your understanding of yourself and your world. This periodic (thrice-yearly) reversal of Consciousness Force, of mind-stuff, provides the means by which you are able to move outside of your structured pathways of facts, assumptions and points of view.
These elements are needed and necessary...they are the very means by which you came to know the world as you do, of how you became self-aware and able to exercise your wondrous gift of Intelligence. But your pathway is circuitous...and it is equally true that you must come to see how these prismatic paradigms, your very own viewpoints have also been the source, the inherent creators of the blind spots within your dim-lit, self-illumined world. For as much as you have turned you eye upon the world with your brightly-beamings, with your wondrous intelligent illuminations, you have equally been creating deepening shadows too. You see through a glass darkly...and you do not know that you do this...and you will not and therefore cannot understand what you do not perceive...
You need help, a way to move beyond or outside of yourself. You need to find a place upon which to stand and see what lies beyond your self-cast shadows, you need to leave this hall of mirrors that you made. So Mercury/Hermes, the Messenger of the Gods, he answers the call, he does his part. He turns around to stir The Waters...he breaks the surface stillness and shows you the refracted, mirrored world through which you move...Yes it was real for you, but limited, shadowed and bounded...bounded by you.
Hermes reveals other points of view, he shows you other prismatic perspectives, different pathways of perception...and you can move into a greater awareness, you may be able to consider the possibility of another way of understanding...and you will Grow. You are able to better comprehend the perspective of another...and your Compassion waxes so that you can draw closer to one another...You move along the pathway of Knowledge and approach the Halls of Wisdom...
During this retrograde, in this re-turning/tuning of your mind, Mercury has danced to the song of Leo. You have been seeking to better understand how Leo can help or, if you misperceive, hinder your understanding of yourself and your world...and, given the over-long sojourn that Mercury has made here, there has been much to learn or re-learn this time around it seems...
The answer you have sought is here for you today...are you ready? Mercury has offered up a greater understanding about your mind as governed by Leo, by your need for appreciation, respect and approval...by your need for LOVE.
More often than you might like to admit, you may fall into error because you have a point of view that you feel you must uphold and defend, (even if you have your own misgivings or doubts about it), you hold firm because to admit that you were incorrect or wrong would be embarrassing to you. So...you hold when you should yield, you dig in when you should give way and the pain you create is equal to the pain that you will face later on...for that is the law, that is Karma.
But Hermes shows you the way through these shadowed pathways of the lower self, of your ego...for the true Leo way is the pathway of Love and Understanding. That rather than seeing your view as the one and only, the one true way, you extend and encompass through your Higher Self the Unconditional Love that links one and all, you extend your Self as you embrace the other before you whom you love as you love yourself...
And it is this greater understanding, to love the other as oneself, which leads to the breaking down of your more limited views as you blend or incorporate a more inclusive view with and through the other, as they do likewise through you. For this is the truth of it, what stands before you is a spark of the Divine, the Self-Same source as your Divine Flame, and for this reason you are held together in the all-encompassing Love of this One Divine Spirit, forever and always...
Your answer is now...let go of Pride and Fear.
Your answer is within...listen to your Higher Self.
Your answer is LOVE...let it shine, let it shine...
See the shadows fade away...as you Shine!
STE, if no one has ever mentioned this to you or you have not read it here on the boards, DB (per the book) is a set of solutions to help someone work through and maybe save their M. It's touched on in the book and we speak more of it here, that DB is about what works and it is unique for everyone, therefore it is OK and APPROPRIATE to modify DB methods to suit us and our particular sitch.
So often when we talk about not mind reading the spouse, that is generally something that is said when the LBS is having thoughts about the WAS as "having the time of their life" or that they are intentionally trying to harm the LBS. Those are the types of thoughts the LBS needs to stop. It is harmful to the LBS.
Of course, that also takes us away from focusing on working on ourselves and becoming even better people than we were before.
OTOH, what you are doing IS mindreading, yet you're coming at it from a place of empathy. Understanding that he has his reasons and "here might be some of them" and it allows you to see that perhaps he really isn't the monster he might come across as.
That is a good thing. That you are understanding that his actions and words are possibly coming from a place of fear.
The difference is, the first type of speculation allows us to shut off and blame. The second type of speculation allows us to open up and empathize.
No, you can not help him solve HIS problems. What you CAN do is be that safe person that, even if all that comes of this is you are a true friend for him, he no longer is afraid of and feels he needs to protect himself from.
Certainly, it can also lead to the same for you. That you no longer feel he is the enemy and feel you need to protect yourself from him.
It will go a long, LONG way to helping your kids now and in the future.
Keep up the great work! Stay focused on yourself, yet be understanding and compassionate of your H.
love your horoscope..what sign are you???
and love your journey from anger to compassion, thank you for sharing it.
Was feeling a bit sad out of nowhere today, so I decided to make it a pizza and movie night with my girls.
way to go stronger - take the bull by the horns and internally yell - i am staying at the picnic!!
that horoscope - it's magical - i'm going to print it out. i'm so delighted that it's for sagittarius - because i'm one too!! yippee
i so stayed at the picnic tonight, that i almost couldn't see the castle! bl@@dy bizarre feeling!!!!
hope you had a lovely pizza with your little girls and enjoyed the movie..
how about a nightcap on the blanket, eh?
cheers
zig
I'm there! Doing some star gazing from the blanket.
I really am happy and peaceful these days. I don't contact h really. It isn't going dark, I'm just focused on living my life. I don't want to force myself in h life, I don't want to do that to anyone. I think he really needs his personal space to figure things out and my life is too happy to add drama or stress.
One thing sticks out in my mind. Our d case will be closed and dropped in 2 Weeks if no forward motion occurs. There is a bunch of paperwork that needs to be exchanged and filled in order to proceed forward.
H and I have not spoken directly about what needs to happen next. He has mentioned little things like changing the address on file with dmv and things like that.
I don't like the "on hold" feeling of everything, but then I give myself a reality talk. A divorce decree won't change my life, and there's no reason that I should be living my life on hold. It's not like I want to date or think about any other man, so why push to be legally single?
I think that talking about it while h is sorting through things would be like poking a bee hive with s stick, I'm the one that would get stung here. I think the best thing for me at this point is to pretend as if we already are divorced and just focus on being his friend when he does poke his head through the door.
I think I'll know if and when it's time to move forward in either direction.
(venting here so I can get it out of my system)
Huh, angry outburst #2 since sending him that email, after about 5 months of NO angry outbursts at all....?
As I mentioned earlier, I'm leaving H alone and just focusing on my life. Not going dark, just allowing interactions to occur on his time, when he is ready.
I was in class tonight from 6-10pm. After class I noticed I had a text from H asking for a huge favor at 7. At 7:30 I had a missed a call from him. I checked the voice mail to find him yelling in the phone. He wanted to know what was wrong with D3's leg....? It was 10:30pm and I was not going to be rude and wake him, so I just left it and drove to work.
Wow, I don't know what is up with him, but this is not how my friendships work. I know that whatever was "wrong" with our daughter's leg is not what the real problem was. It is seriously NOT ok for him to dump on me when he is upset. His issues are his issues. And I certainly hope he is not thinking that my life is on stand by just waiting for the moment when he will need me for a favor. I have a life too, and he needs to learn to respect that.
Yes, I opened up to him in a major way, and I meant every word that I said. But it doesnt mean that I'm sitting here revolving my world around him, and that I will join him on his crazy roller coaster ride of emotions. I get off at 7 in the morning. After I wake up from sleeping I'll send him a text asking him what he needed.
Do all spouses do this? Expecting us to not have a life and run to their side the moment they give us the slightest bit of attention?
I am really irritated with his behavior. Not judging, not going to lash out or not hold myself accountable for MY behavior, I'm just irritated...
I think it's time for a new thread? This one is pretty long, I don't want it to lock up. I think I'll call it "a new perspective".