Time for LBH to move home? WAW can do the walking.

Divorcebusting.com

My last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2246254&page=10

In short to anyone unfamiliar with my sitch, I'm leaning toward moving back in. See the thread for details.

Sandi, you've picked on my writing a few times. Maybe I use more or different words than you do, but I don't think I'm smarter than you. I'm not a Ph.D. I'm a high-school dropout, and that's the truth.

Reasons for moving back in:
- I want 50/50 custody of the kids. It does not seem I can do anything to stop the divorce, but I can get time with my kids. That means a lot to me. If I stay out, I have less chance of that - that's what my lawyer says.
- I'll be happier. I like my house. I like my garden not being full of weeds. I like seeing my kids more often.
- I will be saving money up until the point W moves out and I take on the full bill for the mortgage.
- I won't feel torn. I will feel like I'm taking care of myself and my relationship with the kids.
- My position will be clear and unambiguous.
- Maybe, maybe, maybe, I will be more respectable and eventually WAW's hate might be overcome by that. I know you say not, sandi.
- I'm not out for revenge, but W can see what it is like to face a partner with a hardened heart.
- Even though my heart has hardened a little, I can still show her compassion in everything else I do. I'll stay out of her hair, out of her way, and out of her business as much as possible.
- For the first time in a while, I can set my own boundary.

Reasons for not moving back:
- It will create anger, resentment, and distrust in my W. This may never heal or might take a long time.
- W will be unhappy.
- W may throw a tantrum.
- Kids might be in an unpleasant environment until W moves out.

If I just give in to whatever child custody arrangement my wife wants, of course this will all be easier, but I will also regret it forever. If at some point into this it looks like the kids would be better off with another arrangement, I can work it out with W. If I give her what she wants and later regret it, there is no getting them back.

"going there to be Mr. Mom" - sandi
It sounds like 50/50 custody or father as primary parent is something you're against. If you don't see that as something worth having (or fighting for), I can see why you are flat against me coming back. What is to gain except for some pointless gender role reversal?

The truth is, I have a hard time seeing W as maternal while she is doing this to my family. I don't accept her claim on my kids.

I don't want to be Mr. Mom. I'm as career-focused as anyone. I like what I do for a living and it would really bring me down if I couldn't do it any more. But I want it all. I want to come home from work and help with homework, take a bike ride with the kids, and read them a story.

And I see how this life choice hasn't left me with a whole lot of extra time for other hobbies and such, but I like it, and it's only for 20 years or so. In part, I can see that it's overcompensating for the neglect my parents showered on me, but it is who I am. I'm not Mr. Mom the male homemaker. I'm the male version of do-it-all Super Mom. I'm Super Dad.

Don't think that means that I think that I'm "all that". I know "super dad/mom" has negative connotations, just the way that "nice guy" does. But it is who I am.

"Figure yourf@ckingself out." - Truegritter

I feel like I have. No more compromise. No more half-measure. I don't feel set against myself.

I'm trying to see this from the other side, but every time I think about it, I feel more like moving home and, frankly, calmer.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I just don't see a very good reason to play this part of the WAW's game any longer. Making the house toxic for the kids is something I will avoid as much as possible, and something the WAW can choose to do as well.

Quote:

There is one thing that you could do that might shed more light on your stitch, however, and that is to describe how you and your wife are different and how the two of you are alike (at least before things started falling apart).

Similar:
- My wife and I are both "brains", as some people might say. I took a statistics course for fun - she was the Teacher's Assistant. I had never known a woman with those kind of smarts before I met her. I'm sure there are tons, I just don't run into them often.
- My wife and I can talk about anything for hours. At one of our last MC sessions before she filed D, she brought up how much she liked just talking to me.
- My wife and I are both immersed in geek culture. Even though our marriage is all but gone, we still end up watching Big Bang together when our friends come over. Watching all 7 seasons of Buffy with D15 a coupole of years ago was a family event. We play board games, card games, etc., and this is one of the ways we still have contact. When we went for a weekend vacation, we'd always take boggle and end up playing that for a couple hours - we'd get pretty competitive.
- We both care a lot about parenting and put a lot of energy into our kids. "Bedtime" is an event for us. It usually takes about an hour and it usually involves at least 2 or 3 stories, singing, and playing around for the brush teeth/pajamas part of the process.
- Liberal but flexible political views. We both usually vote democrat, but she has dabbled with objectivism, I've dabbled with libertarianism. Basically fiscally conservative but socially liberal, both of us. But as we've gotten older, we've both become more open to "socialist" programs like national health care.
- We both love nature. She took a course called "Teaching Science Outdoors" one summer when she was finishing up her Master's degree that was one of her favorite classes ever. We take the kids to parks, hikes, and such to enjoy nature.
- We both like sex a lot - when she wants it. During and after one pregnancy, we didn't have sex of any kind for 18 months. Insane! Later, she changed her birth control and everything was unleashed.
- We both entered into a little bubble when we were together. We had friends that we loved a lot, but we rarely saw any of them because they lived so far away. We just never established strong friendships with people who lived closer to us. We don't really like being around people who aren't a lot like us, though we've both opened up a lot as we've aged. Still, married with kids, our little unit is where all of our attention went, and it seemed like it was all that we needed.

Different:
- She is a planner, and I like things spur-of-the moment. I'll start an activity to have fun without too much concern if it will work out in the end. They often do. I can take a drive in no particular direction just to see what is out there. Usually there is a pay-off - a unique restaurant or store or unexpected sight. W needs a destination first.
- She budgets. I spend money less wisely and hope it all works out in the end. For several years, our salaries were rising so quickly, I figured if we needed more money, we'd just make more. We *wasted* so much money then. Eating out nearly every night. But we didn't go into debt - we just didn't save anything.
- Her first career is being in school. She's changed her career many times, but keeps going back to school. She went to Stuyvesant High School with NY's smartest kids, which is a Big Deal. She's gotten scholarships from big schools, and got a 4.0 from NYU. I dropped out of high school. It seemed like a pointless excercise to me. I hated it. I'd learn all the material, ace the tests, but I skipped a lot and just didn't do a lot of the homework, so I usually averaged about a 70%.
- She craves stability, predictability, and structure. I want flexibility and adventure.
- Her parents are still married. She had a stable childhood with all kinds of parental nuturing and support. My mom was married 6 times, each time to the wrong guy. Growing up with those step dads was horrible. One or maybe two of them sexually molested my sisters. My dad was always way off on the sidelines of my life. I can see that he tries or has tried and it's me that is really aloof now.
- then again - W and I both struggle from low self esteem. I'm a "nice guy", right? That stems from shame and devaluation I carry from childhood (and lack of a good male role model). I don't know what made her that way.
- I acknowledge my psychological abnormalities, and she is in denial about hers. She's got a temper, anxiety, occasional depression, snaps and gets really mean to her own family.
- I would do almost anything to save our marriage. She doesn't want it any more.

I know the issues that pushed us apart bascially break down to this. She didn't feel that I was caring for my bipolar as well as I should have been. I kept her out of it because I didn't like her meddling. (I said something like "I don't want you to change who I am" near the end, and those words changed something inside her. I feel like a fool now. The things she wanted to change were not "me", but how I was taking care of myself and the rest of the family.) She didn't feel secure that I wouldn't lose my job or all of my money and we'd end up bankrupt - again.

She actually wrote this to me at one point:

Quote:

- Over the years, you have consistently and systematically lied to me about the severity of you bipolar disorder, and have not let me support you when you needed it. You say you have changed but I just don't want to be married to someone who would do this. I'm tired of living with the constant insecurity

- Over the years, you have lied and mislead me about your work -- when you were working, when you weren't, how much money you were bringing in, etc. You have kept me in the dark about you business financials. I just don't wan to be married to someone who would do this.

- Your boundary/personality issues have made it it exceedingly difficult to just be me. I have pushed aside my true feelings for years. I got to a point where I doubted myself and my instincts, and then eventually to a point where I just didn't care any more. As I started to separated from you, I realized just how far I'd gone. I'm concerned about this happening again. I can't live my life without feelings.

- You overspend and are generally unreliable. I have come to despise the word 'promise' because typically when you promise something, that's a pretty good indications that it will not actually happen. You lie to my face. I ask you for something and you know that you have no intention of doing it, but look at me and say 'ok.' And you justify this to yourself by thinking: well, I didn't tell her when I'd do it, I'll get to it eventually, or thinking: I'll do this other thing that will be Even Better.

- I do feel that us getting married was a mistake. That doesn't mean that there aren't great things that came of it, but it was a mistake and now I'm trying to correct that mistake.

This was in response to something I wrote to her about my reasons for believing that she did at some level want to work things out. This was something like 7 months ago.

So I have a counseling session with W today at 4. I'm going to try to keep my mouth shut.

I don't know what will happen. I expect no change on her part. I will probably work out a plan to move back into the house tomorrow.

I want to say, "Ever since you kicked your emotional affair into high gear in July, you have had no time to help our marriage or our family. I don't have any more patience. I'm not going to enable you any more."

I have been re-reading my thread at marriagebuilders.com from September of last year, immediately after she filed D. I wish I had come to DB in July when it would have helped the most - before she filed. The MB people really focus on the affair and snooping to uncover and eventually expose the affair as a first step to recovery.

edited by dbmod to add note: This is NOT DB advice, exposing the affair may well end your marriage. Please read Michele's thread at the top of the Infidelity forum.

This last weekend was fantastic. W was in FLA for a wedding, so I was at the house with the kids Thu, Fri, Sat, and Sun. It felt so good. I slept like a baby.

Sunday night, back in my apartment, away from the kids, I was immediately thrown into a downer of a mood. Hard to sleep. Blah.

When W came home, she was nice mostly. She came home just in time to do bedtime with the kids. I was cleaning up from dinner and asked her if she wanted me to make her a plate (a day in the airport usually leaves me hungry). She was unable to make eye contact with me when she said "no thanks, but please make me a lunch for tomorrow."

Later on, though, she was able to look at me just fine. A friend sent her some amazing (and expensive) chocolates for her birthday. She offered some to me. I really didn't expect that.

After our friends left the house, I was almost ready to go, and I said that I might stop by the house in the morning to mow the lawn. She said, "And they you're going to move back in, right?". I said I don't know. We can talk about it in session today.

Being with the kids was great. I know that if I do D, if I do get to keep the kids for 3 or 4 days at a time on a regular basis, I'll still be missing them terribly the other half of the week.

How did I get here? Why can't I turn this train around? Where the (*&^ is the woman I married? Who is this !@# %$%$32 #$@%!@$ woman I see now?

OH, GOD, I can't read these old threads of mine any more. They are so painful.

I had hopes that all amounted to nothing. I made mistakes. I was so desperate to fix our marriage that I would give up anything. I think that was never the right idea.

I never had to give up anything - I just had to give her space. I had to stick up for myself and act like a person with confidence and self-respect.

It might really be too late for my marriage. I don't think I've ever written that before. This was her choice that she made 10 months ago. I've done nothing but delay it without bringing us one inch closer.

I could really use a pep talk. :-/

"I never had to give up anything - I just had to give her space. I had to stick up for myself and act like a person with confidence and self-respect."

you wrote this so you're getting what you need to do. that's a big part of what you're going through so i think you're doing really well. it just takes so much time and it's hard to wait.

Quote:

I could really use a pep talk.

So what do you want, a pat on the back or a kick is the a$$? There are plenty of posters on the boards that are willing and able to blow sunshine up your backside. If that is what you want, then fine. You'll feel good about yourself for awhile until your world comes crashing down around you again. Then what?

You've been getting great perspective and advice from several people and you seem hell bent on ignoring what others are suggesting you consider before making the harsh decisions that you are contemplating. Of course this is always your choice to make. But you must know that decisions have consequences and ones made from an emotional place, usually aren't the best ones to make.

Listen, I can totally sympathize with the situation you are in. Mine is in many ways very similar to yours. So, I get what you are trying to do and your motivations for do it. But the problem that I see is that you still do not understand what it is that you must do if you ever hope to reconcile with your W. Your current path is not going to do that for you, IMO.

I've had people ask me on many occasions to think about whether or not an action I am considering is going to hurt or harm my chances at a reconciliation. And when I stop and pause long enough to consider both sides of the equation, really think things through, my ultimate decision is usually better informed and likely the best one for me.

So, I would like to ask you to think about what you have done in the past month or two that would give your W reason to reconsider her current position on the M. And as you think about that, be sure you are looking at it from your W's perspective, not yours.

Then think about what you could do that would make you a better, more attractive, long-term option to your W or any woman for that matter.

Personally I think you still have a lot of personal work to do. If you dive back in to your R with your W before completing your work on YOU, then I see a train wreck in your future.

I'm sorry that this is not the pep talk you were probably hoping for. I wish you well in whatever decision you ultimately make.

I'll take a kick in the ass.

Counseling... happened. W didn't stay for the whole thing. I was cold at first and softened as she started to talk more. C kept trying to get me to say, "I want another chance." I feel like I've done nothing but say that for months and months. I feel like I've never had "The Chance".

One thing became clear - whatever second thoughts she had been harboring became overshadowed by what happened between my old friend and D15. She blames me for allowing her to live with him. W actually set it up!!! She called him and said it was a good idea for her to have a stable family environment. D15 decided to set W and I down in July 2011 to say she wanted to move back in with us, and W had to reply "Your dad and I are separating."

The friend has been a mostly good friend to me, but now I call him DeadToMe because of the line he crossed with my daughter. Well, back when W, Dead, our other best friend, and I lived together when we were all about 21 we all had this giant stupid love triangle going. W liked the attention. Things went off the rails one night with Dead and W when, while she was sleeping in his bed, he initiated unwanted sexual intercourse.

W and I didn't talk to Dead for 8 years. Dead crept back into my life and we became friends again. Sandi.... hi. I know you're going to dislike me more than usual for this, but I didn't think that what Dead did was so bad I should never talk to him again. W's and Dead's stories of what happened that night changed over time, but the story I got back in 1999 just wasn't so bad it couldn't be forgiven in time. W let me believe that she forgave him, and she did tell him as much.

Now after the revelation that Dead made a pass at D15, W says she does not think she can ever forgive me. She doesn't *have* to forgive me, she said.

She cried and carried on for a while. I didn't know how to respond.

If this is the new central issue of our breakup... I don't know what it will take.

My C says she still thinks it would be a good idea to tell her that I love her and that I'd like another chance. I told C that seems pointless because I've said that so many times in so many ways.

I'm thinking about calling W tonight and telling her that I didn't know the reason it was so hard for her to be around me was because of this. And then what? Ask if there are ways I can make this better as I prepare to move back into the house? Or say, just kidding, I'm not moving back now, but I might at any later point if I feel like it?

You all probably think I'm mentally disabled. I am lost. I am rudderless.

Knowing I am going to move home, fight for my kids, and take care of myself makes me feel good. I'm having trouble picturing my alternative.

I don't get it. If your W set it up why was she blaming you?

Yes, W did set up for D15 to live with Dead and encouraged that relationship. And she blames me for it.

We had a confrontation tonight that was stupid to have gotten into. But W said that she shouldn't have been put in that position - to be sending her SD to her husband's friend when the friend had raped her (W).

I can't function any more with this indecision. I feel awful inside right now. There is so much pain going around. I want to sleep for a week.

sounds as if it was a bad decision by both of you. that type of decision has to have agreement by both parties, whether explicit or implied.

The "decision" was this: find the most stable place for my daughter. My daughter, aged 15, struggles with life. She never healed from my first divorce (when she was 2) or her mother's abandonment and presenteeism in her life. She needed someplace stable and home-like to stay, and my friend seemed like the best place to do it.

D15 really wanted to live with W (her step-mom) and me full-time, but having just lived (a little too closely) through her mother's divorce, she couldn't live in a house with us separating.

I wasn't for D15 living with her non-parents, but W felt it was best and I didn't feel like I had a lot of power to stop it.

DeadToMe was my closest friend. We've known each other for nearly 20 years. I certainly didn't foresee him making a pass at my daughter. And neither did my wife.

My wife changes her primary reasons for the divorce. When we sent D15 to dead's house, it was because she was afraid that I wouldn't be able to take care of my mental health, essentially. Now it is because of this.

Yes, W needs to forgive herself. Part of the problem is that this incident between Dead and D15 is harder on W than it is on my daughter. D15 is mostly over it. Nothing happened. It was a bad situation, she got out of it, and we don't talk to that person any more.

It is apparent now that my W feels a lot of shame still from the incident in 99. And she feels shame that I was able to get past it and start talking to him again. She feels betrayed by me.

She's not a happy woman. I want to be her protector and instead, I just seem to hurt her more every day.

I can't do anything right for her.

Originally Posted By: jh52

I don't post often but I wonder if the problem is that your wife needs to forgive herself for what happened to your daughter.

Thanks for speaking up. 2 posts since 3/22/2008 and one of them is on my thread!

Unfortunately, the EA fantasy started before the incident between Dead and D15. I called her on the EA yesterday. I told her about the texts I'd seen between them months ago when I was snooping on her. 2x4 me if you must - this was during a long conversation where I said every wrong thing I could think of.

But I called her on it and she feels shame about that, too.

I don't want her to feel shame. I wish she would stop running from her problems, though.

I really want off of this ride.

Having a higher level of education doesn't necessarily mean a person is smarter. I actually know many people who hold a higher degree than i do, but they sure aren't smarter than I am.

So last night at the house... I just couldn't stop. I provoked my wife on subject after subject. I felt like it was my last chance to come up with some other plan with her than all-out war. I was unusually direct. She cried at several points. I followed after her and continued.

I don't even really want to talk about it because I know it was terribly bad form. Such bad form that I knew she'd be sore and that it would be better if I didn't come back to move into the house today. This is my normal night to be with the kids, but I thought she'd prefer to be left alone.

Halfway thought the day, she said she was too tired and just wanted to sleep could I come home at the usual time to take care of the kids. I said OK. I played with the kids in the back yard, made dinner, put them to bed, did dishes, etc. She never slept. She just stayed on the sidelines the whole time. At one point when I came into the kitchen from grilling, W was standing by the sink, turned around and pulled me in for a big long hug.

Earlier that day, while I was in the middle of forgetting how to DB, I sent my W a text that said, "Please, for the love of all that is good, put this divorce on hold."

She replied, "I'm too tired to think about this right now. I didn't sleep well last night."

I feel like I did everything wrong yesterday and got a positive response. After the hug, we silently went in our opposite directions.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

Having a higher level of education doesn't necessarily mean a person is smarter. I actually know many people who hold a higher degree than i do, but they sure aren't smarter than I am.

I wholeheartedly agree.

My wife, on the other hand, loves her degrees.

A week or two ago, W was in a bad mood and decided that my attitude about my own education was so poor that I would have made a horrible home-school student. It was a weird fight.

Originally Posted By: Always

Even though my heart has hardened a little, I can still show her compassion in everything else I do. I'll stay out of her hair, out of her way, and out of her business as much as possible.

How are you going to soften your heart? Do you want to?

The other part is not compassion it is tolerence.

Listen man you don't have to convince me or Sandi of what your reasons are but look back at what you wrote.

You should not make decisions out of fear.

Fear is the worst of all emotions.

What we have been saying and I won't speak for Sandi is to start thinking about your goals.

About the man you want to be. Your values. What you want your life to look like beyond this.

Here is not the destination. But what is yours?

How will your choices get you there?

Don't let your lawyer scare you either. I am not a lawyer but if you have a goal of getting to a co-parenting situation with your W how do you think you can achieve that?

Children want to see their parents dancing together in the living room

not ignoring eachother at the breakfast table.

You don't have control over the former but you do over the latter.

And your friend for making a pass at D15 AND raping (yes I said raping) your W when he had unconsented sex with her...

Defending him is an afront to her and should be to you to.

You need to figure out what kind of man you want to be. That behavior doesn't make your W feel safe do you think?

You talk about boundaries- a good one might be not having Dead in your life.

DeadToMe is not in my life and never will be again. I don't defend him. I wish I hadn't let him back into my life. I thought W and I both were ready to put what happened in the past. It was a big mistake.

I feel like I am softening, but I still don't know what to do. My court date is June 1. I can't pay my mortgage and my lawyer.

Always

Listen man this is the toughest thing you will do in your life I promise.

But it does mean looking at the cold hard facts of what is going on and making different choices.

You can't pay your mortgage right now? Not the end of the world welcome to a very big club in the US today.

These are extraordinary times we are living in economically.

Can't pay a lawyer? Why do you need one right now? She wants a D?

Let her lawyer do the paperwork. Can you agree on things? Don't have to pay a lawyer if you do.

Other than these things how are you doing?

Thanks for asking, TG.

We can't agree on custody. I want 50/50 and she's convinced that will hurt the kids. I'm convinced that divorce and splitting their time between parents is going to hurt the kids, but spending a couple of weekdays here isn't.

So now I need a lawyer. I just asked my lawyer to adjourn out 6/1 court date because we haven't been able to meet. That should make it easier for me to get her fee together.

I spent the night at the house yesterday. W cried and threw a small tantrum at first. Then after kids went to bed, she opened up a lot more. I'm not entirely sure that... I know she doesn't want me here, but I'm not entirely sure that there isn't something useful coming out of it.

At some point late in June last year, my wife stopped wanting to communicate with me and I knew it was a problem right away. Coincidentally she started her "not an emotional affair" with her high school buddy at the exact same time.

She's said that she wanted the time away from me so that she can feel her feelings completely and be herself before she thinks about the marriage. That's not what she said at first, but I think that's what she was thinking at first. What she said at first was that I needed the time to figure myself out.

At some point, that really switched to being angry about how I had accepted Dead back into my life and how that invalidated her feelings and experience. Her desire to not communicate intensified.

All this time, she has wanted to not want to be divorced. She has wanted to miss me and wished that she didn't feel the way she does - but she doesn't think she can change the way she feels about me.

And I think that's the absolute insanity of what she's been up to. She's waiting around for her feelings to change, but has been unwilling to communicate with me about it to work through all of the misunderstandings and the mistakes and allow us to get a better understanding of each other.

I'm going to ask her if she will come to another session with me just to talk about how she feels about the way I invalidated her. I sense that there is still a desire to make things better, but an intense desire not to *do* anything about it.

She says, "I don't *think* I'll change my mind."

So now what?

I hear a lot of what you think she will do or what you think she wants

Your sucess is bounded by these predictions.

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

So now what?

I don't know. I sense there is some opportunity here. I feel something going on that wasn't happening during our months of stalemate.

She's talking to me more - she is exposing more of herself and the feelings behind her actions. She is upset that I'm back in the house, but there is more communication. I'm really unsure of what exactly to do, but I think that focusing on my own needs and what I think *I* need to do may having positive effects.

My wife could have been apart for 2 years, but without getting in some contact prompting her to open up about her anger, I would have never known what the problem was.

Her instinct is to run away from her problems and never deal with them. Maybe pushing her out of her comfort zone was a good thing.

I always suspected it might be.

If I have made some gains by doing something against her wishes, the difficult part will be keeping the momentum and not building resentment.

I was surprised how often she has actually sought out contact with me over the last two days.

I'm going to try not to blow this.

So, I think I need to address "I don't think I'll ever forgive you. I don't have to.", and in a more general way address the idea that she waits around in a sort of half-hope that her feelings will change without engaging me in some way.

And I guess that is sort-of against LRT. The other thing I want most is for her to push back or put the divorce on hold. I accept now that even if we decide to try to work things out again, maybe she needs to move out and find her own place, even if that means kids now have two bedrooms and all the other bad stuff about divorce that I wanted to avoid.

I told her earlier this week that I want another chance for our marriage/separation to work out. We tried it my way and it didn't work out, so let's try her way. I said you can't blame me for trying to take an approach that would be a lot less disruptive for everyone.

I want to ask her if she'll come to counseling next Friday to talk about her feelings about what she told me Monday in counseling. We have divorce court the same day, so I don't know how realistic that is.

I feel like I'm in a strange place because I'm pretty sure it's more important than ever for me to LRT, but I feel like some communication is happening and I need to let it happen.

Trying to remember:
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
and
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

I feel comfortable now that my world won't end if I have to go to court Friday without my lawyer and I can't pay the mortgage and my wife moves out and takes half the furniture and my favorite cooking knives.

Right now, she is coming to me, she is opening up a little, even if it is just to express anger, but then she is actually being pretty nice to me in general. I think I'm in a good place emotionally to really hang back for a while and not let her actions affect my mood.

I think what I can say to her at some point this weekend is something like "Whether or not we are going to get divorced, I would like to improve our relationship." and encourage her to join me at a future counseling session.

How are you doing?

Hi, sandi. Thanks for asking. I'm OK.

I've been happier living at home than living in the apartment. I've been seeing so much more of the kids and it feels great. Many of my interactions with my wife are still negative, but for the most part they are not.

We don't ignore each other at the breakfast table, for instance. She made me a cake for my birthday, and it was delicious. I turned 35 yesterday.

The day before that was our first court date. The lawyers spoke to each other in a conference room with a referee while W and I made small talk. The kids will be getting their own lawyer assigned (law guardian). W wants to move out to her own apartment, but won't go until custody is settled.

That means that I have a few months (I think) to change our relationship for the better while she is still in the house.

She has been coming to counseling. Week before last, we talked about her feelings about my allowing Dead back into our lives. "I don't think I'll ever forgive you. I don't have to."

Friday, she came to another session, even though it was only a few hours after our court appearance. We talked about it a little more. I tried to make it clear that I was sorry (that I let him back in, that I had made her feel the way she did.) and that I really wish I had understood her better during that time. My perception of that time was shaped by hearing Dead's account of events, and not hearing hers and assuming things were different than she remembered them. I told her that I need her to express her feelings more directly more of the time.

I have a lot of regret over this.

Our session was really more conventional therapy and not really solution-based. If MWD were there herself, I'm not sure she could come up with behaviors I can change that demonstrate that I would never repeat this kind of mistake. I don't know. I like my therapist. I think it was a good session and I'm pretty sure W will come to the next one again. I think I can keep the next one a little more solution-oriented.

My laywer told me that her lawyer told her that W is miserable in the marriage and in the home, that I'm moody, and that no one in the home is allowed to have their own identity.

That sounds like behavior that can be changed in a very short term. W said that those were not her words, and that she's never articulated it like that, but that she agrees with it. I'm not sure why her lawyer would describe things that way if W didn't describe it to him like that first.

I'm skeptical of the label "moody". My W left the C session a little early to pick up the kids, so it was just me and the C who has actually been my IC for a little over a year now. I told her I felt like I didn't feel like I was in a struggle with my W as much as I am in a struggle against Shadow AlwaysTrying - the ghost of the guy I was. Shadow AT is moody, not me. C said that she has seen huge changes in me over the last year and she is encouraged that W will come to see them as well.

Next counseling session, I'm going to ask W to articulate what might be meant by no one being allowed to have their own identity. That is going to boil down to a set of behaviors from my past and it should be easy to find ways to show her that I'm conscious of the issues (if she can define them and point them out) and changing the behavior.

I'm thinking about doing something to make amends for the way I hurt my W. I supported someone who violated her, and was a little too eager to accept his version of events. I feel like a hypocrite for reflexively cutting him out of my life for good for even thinking of crossing that line with my daughter, when I was willing to forgive him for what he did to the honest-to-goodness Love of My Life, when she still described it as rape.

I should never have put pressure on her to mend things with him. I feel ashamed. She pointed out in our last session how this came to pass. When I broke down with my first bout of major depression after our son was born, I was out of work and needed a job - Dead came along at just that moment with work I needed. W said she sold out. She didn't want me being around Dead, but she knew we needed the money so she compromised. She and I both feel pretty lousy about that.

Well, I may never really be able to make it up to her. So I was thinking I might find a way to pay it forward instead. I want to see if there is some way I can donate time to support women who have been abused in some sort of way.

I have no idea what it is that I can do. Maybe volunteer to help with a fund drive or something. I'm not sure even what organization to go to for this.

A very bloggy post. I'm trying to process through our latest arguments:

We fought a little bit last night. W was having a hard time putting the kids to bed. They were unruly and there was some yelling and, after D3 slapped her in the eye, a lot of anger. I was catching up on some work downstairs. Kids wouldn't cooperate, so story time was cancelled. W told the kids get into bed or else, basically, and was standing outside their door fuming. I quietly came upstairs to lend my support.

W started lashing out because she assumed that I would have to be writing recording this bad parenting moment to convince the court that she was an unfit parent. W said my lawyer is lying to me if she says the court will likely grant 50/50 custody without my going out of my way to discredit my W as a parent.

W was really hostile. We had planned to clean up the house together after she put the kids to bed, but it didn't seem like it was a good idea to be around each other. When she came downstairs, I told her I was going out for a walk. I ended up going to the corner store and buying her favorite candy bar and some iced tea. I put them on the dining room table when I got home as a peace offering and went upstairs to clean my room instead.

After 20 minutes or so, I came back downstairs and started to help cleaning up. She warmed up and she sat down on the couch so we could talk.
At first we were talking about D16's permit. I want her to be allowed to get one, but W doesn't think she's ready.

Things morphed into R talk. We talked about a lot of things, and some of it gave me hope that things can improve. But she also said that she is angry and getting angrier all the time because I want to fight her over the kids. I deflected, but not really expertly. She would say things like, "Why are you putting the kids through this. Think about what is best for them." All I had to do was look at her and she knew I felt the exact same way about her.

When she wants to hurt me, she'll come up with some version of "and that's how I know I don't want to be with you". It's usually something I did or said. It's almost as if she wants to punish me for something I've done in the past and deny that I can be any different now. In this case, she said that when she filed, I responded by saying please give me one week to show you that I have changed. She said that made it obvious to her that I had no clue and leaving me was the only thing that made sense.

I told her that when I said that, I was bargaining. I was shocked and looking for a way to save the marriage. I told her I knew that it would take longer than a week to make the changes that were important to her and to prove that they were not just temparary, but I believed then and still do now that I can demonstrate understanding and change every week if she is willing to be part of the process.

She acknowledged that there has been a lot of change but there is still a long way to go. I told her that she doesn't really know me any more and things may be more different than she realizes. I also told her that I'm really glad she is coming to counseling because many of the changes she is waiting for that have not happened yet are because she isn't communicating to me about them.

I felt a lot of positive exchange happened in the conversation, but she got agitated at some point and said something like it is pointless to talk to me. Oh, I remember. I said something about her anger. I don't even remember what. She took it to be invalidating - that I was saying that she needed to just let go of her anger so we could move on. Then she said that no one should ever have to live with me and stormed off to her room.

I thought about our conversation for about 20 minutes and then called her on her cell phone. I told her that acknowledging her anger doesn't mean that I don't think her feeligns are real and that I never want her to push her feelings down or pretend they don't exist again. I wish I had written this down yesterday when it was fresh in my mind.

She appologized for saying no one should have to live with me. She said that she didn't think the kids shouldn't live with me, only that she thought that she shouldn't have to live with me.

I don't think I'll get her back to C until 6/22. She hasn't given me the gift of time. I've stolen it. I want to make the best use of it I can. Our next court date is 7/11, I believe, but the law guardian will be talking to us and to the kids sooner than that.

Rules I probably broke:
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

I did by her a favorite treat as a peace-making gesture. It wasn't to make brownie points, but to show that I do care about her.

I didn't exactly violate rule 1, but when she sat down to talk with me, I did make an effort to have some constructive conversation. I didn't plead or beg or chase, but I did acknowledge that I am trying to improve our relationship. And I did try to explain some of my past behavior, describe some of the things I've been through over the last year or so, assert that I really have been committed to real change, and express my uncertainty about how much headway I can make in her perception of me without some input on her part.

I don't think I pushed, but I did try to make some points and I could have done well to get her to open up more by talking a little less.

I did good on this one, though:

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

Several times she tried to bait me Sunday. I never bit.

I think I really need to work on this more:
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

We end up talking a lot about what I might have done differently or how I have to change. I'm going to keep rule 31 top of mind over the next week and see how things can be different by talking about her.

My d16's birthday is today. We gave her gifts yesterday, though.

D16 asked W a few weeks ago if she could have the ring I gave W when we started dating after W dies. W wrapped it up and gave it to her as a birthday present, which bummed us both out. D16 cried when she opened it. In front of all of our guests.

It pretty much ruined my evening.

How did your W react after that happened?

W responded in typical WAW fashion, I think. detached. Like she had no idea this would upset either of us.

I'm still muddling through this. Living in the house, W and I are seeing a little more of each other and there is sometimes conflict - intense conflict, but there is also movement.

I think we may be occasionally making steps in the right direction. I don't know. She's coming to counseling Friday.

It didn't work. I failed in my ultimate goal. I tried my best, and I'm proud of that.

I also did a lot of things wrong. Spying on her. Getting caught spying on her. Didn't give her enough space. Showed my anger more often and more intensely than was helpful.

I could never make the struggle go away. There was always a struggle over when I get to see with the kids or be home or so much back and forth and mistrust over money.

Early on, my wife asked if we could be separated for 6 months to a year. That is how she started this with me. It was a hell of a bomb. I'm pretty sure if I had just taken her up on it, we'd have been piecing within a few months. I wasted my first opportunity to rescue the marriage by being to slow to change the things that were hurting her (before the bomb, while we were in counseling). How dense was I that we were in counseling and I didn't realize my marriage was teetering on the edge.

A couple of weeks after the bomb, we were still in counseling and she was giving me a chance to turn around, but too often I followed her around the house trying to get explanations or reassurances and ultimately, suspecting an EA, spied on her and got caught. She told me I had to move out or she would file.

I couch-surfed at friends' houses for about 5 weeks. We had very little contact and being shut out by her was really hard for me to accept. The last two weeks of that time were good for her, though. The distance was making her heart grow fonder. I was boiling over, though and moved back into the house. She filed a few days later.

A couple of months after my wife file, I moved out on the condition that she put the divorce on hold. She wouldn't agree, so I did it anyway and finally got her to agree to those terms. I did my best divorce busting during that period, but things were probably too far gone. IDK. Nothing seemed to really work.

A few months after that, she started marching down the divorce path again, so I moved home. Honestly... Some things started to seem better during this period. This is when I stopped posting on the board.

I tried so hard. But we passed the tipping point, it would seem, when I moved back in the first time, or maybe when she caught me spying on her, or maybe way before that and nothing I did was good enough.

I guess what I'm saying is... don't be me. When things look bad, calm down and get a grip on yourself. Be strong no matter how you feel. Space is OK, even though it's scary. Take LRT seriously.

My divorce isn't final yet. I've spent the last month pestering my wife to do a separation for a while instead, but that obviously hasn't helped. She's been moved out for about two months now into her own place. I see the kids 8 out of 14 days, even though I only get 4 sleepover days out of those 14.

We're still fighting over child support. The NY State formula specifies that should give her an amount of money that will make me go bankrupt. She wants $300 in child support a week, plus half of child care, plus I still have to maintain a house and a life for them, plus I pay half of medical expenses and pay for half of the clothes and books and coats and hats and everything else. It's insanity.

But she won't talk about it.

Anyway. Checking in. I wish I hadn't dropped off the board, but I felt so defeated when W decided to go forward with the divorce again and I moved home and I just couldn't post any more.