this path is MY path - DivorceBusting.com

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starting a new thread...

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oops forgot one - this is the second one

www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2224301#Post2224301

copied my last post into here - for continuity
thanks
zig

so a strange thing happened yesterday with h. strange in the way that i recognized a pattern within myself that i was unaware of. it has to do with him being responsible for his part - how i let him off the hook, without even realizing it.

so if anyone can help me to figure out how i can rectify this, i would be really grateful.

2 weeks ago we had our first therapy session with the child counselor. h and i agreed that we would go in 2 weeks again and he would make the appointment. i didn't hear from him about this for the whole of the first week, and finally sent him a simple email "haven't heard from you about what time the appointment is, could you let me know please"

no reply. i decided that i wouldn't force the issue or ask - was in a whatever happens, happens state of mind.

yesterday (the day we had agreed to have the next apptmt - he said that well i suppose we should have been going to this appointment today - but i haven't made it yet - i tried to call 3 times and no one picked up the phone (???????)

i guess i didn't realize how "angry" i was that 1. he hadn't made the appointment and 2. hadn't acknowledged my email and 3. basically pretended nothing was happening

my reaction during the phone call was basically - well, it doesn't seem as if you want to go so there isn't much point in going is there - he did try to suggest that maybe we should go, but then let himself off the hook by adding - well it's probably better we should talk a lot together and define what we are doing before we go.

afterwards - i realized i had done several things inadvertently
1. let him off the responsibility of making sure s was okay
2. letting him make it seem as if going to this therapist is about us and not about son
3. being sullen, myself, and reacting with the attitude of well if you're not going to try, i'm not going to either

#3 is something i definitely did during the M when i got fed up. funny i haven't seen it until now

so i need help with

1. i'm considering emailing him and saying that after thinking about it, i realize that it is very important that we continue to go see C and that we should make the appointment for sooner than later

2. am i pressuring him? - yes i know the answer to that - when it comes to the kids, they are first priority

3. i have agreed to talk with him one on one, but am really wondering today whether that is a good idea - i feel he uses these conversations to keep us in a state of chaos. his evasive way of speaking makes me really nervous and i keep thinking that there is a hidden agenda. we don't really get anywhere, and because i don't want to push him, i get frustrated

i think i'm trying to figure out here whether there is any point in talking with him at all. if i say no - would i be losing the opportunity to make things better between us, or is that just wishful thinking on a large scale at this point

i'm thinking of saying - "the only issues we need to resolve are those concerning son - and we need to do that within the structure of the therapy sessions. there is really nothing else that we need to talk about as you have made your plans very clear"

thanks for the help

zig

Hey zig. i'm gonna aske what some one asked me. Are you and introvert/extrovert? Is your H an introvert/ extrovert. Not sure if I have asked this before.

"3. being sullen, myself, and reacting with the attitude of well if you're not going to try, i'm not going to either"

This^^^definetly sounds passive/aggressive. i'm guilty of that too. It destroys relationships.

i know - i saw that only yesterday - trying not to beat myself up over it too much, but to understand what i'm doing and to stop doing it

i think, in spite of the changes that i have made, my biggest challenge here i that i have EXPECTATIONS!

even though i keep saying that i don't - i still do.

i've been inspecting what i have been going through, and the reaction that i have been having during this last week and a half after he told me about buying the house.

it's very sad that i am still following a pattern that was deeply ingrained in the relationship. it goes like this.

"i am trying to do my best to make things better for us, no matter what i do, there seems to be no effect, and then when there's proof that nothing is better, i get mad and act a bit sullen and off hand - fine if you're not going to try , i won't either" -sort of scenario.

for the last couple of weeks i have found myself thinking - there are still lessons to be learned here for me,i don't see them yet but they will come one after the oterh, and i need to be open to them .

so this is one of the things that i needed to find within myself that needs to be rectified.

as for introvert/extrovert.

i've always thought i was the extrovert and him and s are the introverts - emotionally. i don't know if i'm getting the interpretation correct - i'm all for splaying my feelings in the open and getting through and resolving them (as evidenced in my posts, grin), while the 2 of them have a really painful time even acknowledging that they HAVE feelings

what are your thoughts on that, ces? any advice on how to handle h when he is painfully unable to express his feelings?

thanks
zig

Ahhh....

Since we have been talking about communication styles, and triggers for you that leave you in a reactive state ( and not very good at it BTW )

My x was an extrovert, very outgoing ( Italian, you know what I mean ). Over the years, I had patterned myself to dealing with myself in terms of communicating with her. I am somewhat an introvert . So the only way I really ever expressed myself, or interpreted myself in the relationship, was what I knew.

I dealt with her like she was an introvert, because that is the way I communicated. I didn't understand the difference in the two. Hell, maybe I would go as far as saying that I didn't know there was a different way.

When we would talk, HER answers were right there. I missed a LOT of them though, because I expected her to communicate with me on my terms. That led to a LOT of unfulfilled conversations from me. It led to frustrations because it was not the way I communicated. My frustration would lead to anger, much the same way you have described.

My partner now, is an introvert. And what I learned (the hard way ) , was the difference between the two communications styles. It wasn't until I met her, that it even occurred to me.

I would ask a question on my time, and expect an answer on my time.

What I learned was, that with communication with an introvert. (especially if you are an extrovert). We can ask questions on our time, although the answers come on their time. Sometimes I wait for days for an answer.

What I was doing with her was....I was asking these questions, and she would feel "pushed" for an answer, because she wasn't ready. And in time, she would feel over run, because the questions would stack up in her brain. One after another, before she could answer the first one....

This also led to some very frustrating times, until I learned to ask one thing...then wait for the answer. I pour a tall glass of STFU, until her answers come to her.

What this did, was allow me to step back, and relieve a lot of frustration on my end, because I was eliminating my expectations.

I removed MY triggers for frustration turning towards anger at her....by simply recognizing and removing those expectations.

Just something to think about.....

Zig Mach1 posted this^^^^ to me a while back. Look at it and see if it helps. I'm a loed extrovert

thanks so much rick - and i have to confess that i read this months ago, and forgot!!!

but here's the question - in the situation which i described above - how do i wait for an answer when he was supposed to make the appointment and didn't in the time frame we had decided on together?

do i still wait and when he "tentatively" asks me on the day we are supposed to go whether he should make it or not? do i call him up on it - point out that i had set the time aside for this important thing and then not even been informed.

or do i graciously agree and so yes, at your convenience?

i'm not being sarcastic but i guess on some level i viewed his actions as passive aggressive too. staying passive by not doing what was agreed or answering my email and then getting slightly aggressive in shifting the focus to being US needing to talk rather than going to the therapist.

i would love to hear your opinion on how should handle the above situation. and thanks again for posting this - i will remember it now, that we do have different styles

zig

Zig maybe I'm confused. But if the therapy is for your son why don't you make the appointmnet and let H know of the date? Usually an appoinment is made at the end of a session for the next session. How come this didn't happen? You guys sound very similar as to how my W and I did things. usually ended in an arguement.

well - i work at home and h works at the uni - and has a crazy schedule that is different every week. even if i make the appointment, i would have to call back and forth 2 or 3 times to get the time right for him.

at the end of the first appointment - i watched the following:

we came out, and h was definitely struggling. he was trying to swagger and be all confident and when he paid, she asked him if he wanted to set up the next one. he said yes, and as she pulled up the calendar he got all anxious and sputtered something about how could he possibly make the appointment , he didn't have his calendar etc., he would have to call back. i calmly told him in a reassuring voice that that was perfectly ok.

in the car - i wrote the details in a post on my last thread - but he basically said that he wanted to go every 2 weeks and he would call and make the appointment.

i trusted him to do that - and you know the rest.

i see the pattern from earlier - last week i was thinking that, sh$t i shouldn't push him - his not calling me back is his way of telling me he doesn't want to go.

should i force it or let it be?

he knows (because he told me) that this is going to bring up stuff his words - "we should go, this will teach us a lot about ourselves. "

i think 2 weeks ago he was a bit braver and after he found out that the C picked up on the "real "picture right away, that he needed to work on himself in order to help son, and he heard some of the things that the rest of the family have witnessed with son's pain, he pulled back and freaked out a bit.

he's like a skittish horse these last 3 weeks - and i'm trying to tread carefully here - right now he's "safe" in terms of s doing well - he's got s all excited about his house and how it's going to be such a great project fixing it together this summer (he's reliving the good times with his father - they did that every summer since he was 5)

it was VERY significant for him - that when he was young his father moved out for 4 months how badly it affected him - in fact i don't think he is really aware of how badly. he remembers it as having happened when he was 10, but i found out from his mom after the sitch started that he was 16!!!

his mom told me that a couple of years ago he cam and said to her "thank you so much for staying together - i know you did it because of us kids and i am so grateful that you did"

his BIGGEST reason fro leaving is that son is doing GREAT and soooo much better and he talks that up non-stop. it is really transparent to me that as long as he can stay convinced of that then what he is doing is just fine.

didn't mean to go off on the side - but i was giving you some background - this is why i think he doesn't really want to go. he doesn't want to find out the real deal of how this will affect son. if he had to hear it especially from a therapist - he'd have to rethink what he's doing and he's not ready for it yet.

so do i push and make sure this happens. all my friends and both families are adamant that we should go for s's sake. i agree too

thanks for helping me out here rick - really appreciate it

zig

" Does it change any of your goals? Does it make you question them? IMO, the external should not direct the internal. Or, what goes on outside of us shouldn't direct who we are on the inside. The internal drives how we respond and relate to the external. Keep focus on yourself and who you want to be and how you want to heal. "

this written from ces a couple of weeks ago.

after going through what i realize was my panic mode as reaction to h buying a house, i feel i have calmed down and found one more layer of strength and refocus here.

my challenges for myself
1. to stop letting the external direct the internal - i'm suddenly much more aware of how much i let what others are doing and saying affect me. i'm seeing now how i get resentful and blameful in retaliation and even though i "act" as if i'm okay, it comes through

so i am focusing on only myself and feeling good no matter what is going on around me

2.forgiveness: i'm really working on forgiving myself as well as h. thinking a lot about what unconditional love means and how my perspective needs to change on that. i',m starting to be more aware that forgiveness is for myself and will bring me peace

3. continuing to work on letting go - i'm getting better at it - and as i get better at it , it is getting easier to be around h and s

i know my biggest challenge is my reactivity. i'm really much better now at the smaller less important things, but need to work a lot on how i react with h.

so today is a good day as i continue along my path. i am already in the process of "separating" myself from the marriage and starting to really feel like my own person. not just the LBS - which is what i've felt all these months..

question, please

h is inviting me more often to do things with them - could be that it's just coincidence - spring is here and more get togethers and parties. we sort of went together to a party last weekend - in that we agreed to go but i picked up s and then he came later as he wasn't done at work.

it was a little difficult as he was a bit nasty 2 mins after he got there, and then after he ate - he got a call and then disappeared for about an hour - i'm pretty sure it was OW, because when he came back he could barely look at me. i really GAL'd and hung out with everyone else - we had a bit of a conversation together talking about really positive things about s, and i ended it while it was good by saying i wanted to get back to the fire. i also left a bit earlier than him and s. at the end as i was saying bye, the host who is my yoga teachers' husband took my hand in a warm gesture, right in front of h - i could feel h bristle, and i was very conscious of it too - it's been too long since someone touched me in just a warm open loving way in complete friendship, but for h it was maybe a glimpse of the idea of me being with another person? (that's why he did the crazy conversation 2 days later, i think)

then he invited me to grill out at our friends house and called me about it but then we got into that crazy conversation and he didn't call me back to say it was on or not, and then he and s went on their own (obviously upset with me?)

after that he told s and me that there was a big get together at uni this saturday with an open party and barbecue and all these things happening. he's got s pretty worked up and excited about it and i agreed that i would bring s, as he will be back with me tomorrow.

i could just drop s off there, or stay and hang out in the spirit of being "really good friends" that he is asking for constantly

i don't really have to hang out with him since my friends will be there too, and there will be tons of people.

i guess i'm asking is it better to GAL off on my own - or GAL in front of him with other people.

struggling a bit today with feeling sad and down about all of this. i guess i'm missing h - it's the day before my show - and in the past each of us would drop everything to help the other one be ready (we're both artists), in total support. i don't need any help at all, but just miss the feeling - ah well a little melancholy - it will pass. at least he asked if he could come, and i said yes - though i have mixed feelings about it. almost hurts too much to have him around when things are going well, because i want to share them and enjoy them with him so much.

oops i guess i worked myself up into a bit of a state there - ah well onto more cheerful things - like finishing off the last piece

Zig I know this is hard but you have to stop assuming and mind reading. You will make yourself nutty. Accept some invites but not all. Becareful with him getting jealous. They will use it to justify their behavior. I know I was a WAS once. Not proud of it either.

My W is an artist. She is a perfectionist too. What kind of art do you do? The hardest class I took in college, art history. But got an A.

sorry, i didn't realize that i was mind reading h when i wrote that stuff. you're probably right, will be more careful and cognizant about doing that.

i guess i was trying to ask whether i was DB'ing right in this sitch - the eternal question i suppose - to which there is no real answer is there...

i think you misunderstood about the friend - i was certainly not trying to make h jealous - and definitely not with that guy - who i am not attracted to at all. his gesture was a little more intimate than i ever expected - and i pulled my hand away immediately - uncomfortable because h was right there and it is the LAST thing i want to do right now or ever. for me it's really clear that until we are actually divorced, and after a reasonable period of time, would i ever consider getting into a relationship.

i learned about what it does the hard way. it cost me two marriages and if i ever even thought about that now, it would make me realize that i have learned nothing.

what medium does your wife work in?
i used to be a perfectionist, but now during this sitch and my own relaxing and opening up, i find i am approaching all things with much more abandon, which is wonderful.

i used to be a ceramic artist, until the accident. and now i work with textiles and am planning to combine the two in the near future. so it's exciting for me to even be able to feel creative again, let alone work at it

thanks rick

feeling very sensitive tonight - after i posted and realized while i was writing why i missed my family today (s is with h) , i thought about it some more, and then the real feelings came out.

i'm quaking a little at stepping out into the world tomorrow for the first time after the accident and being holed up for so many years.

i'm feeling brave but fragile, and i know that i'll be okay and tomorrow will go wonderfully . i have a wonderful support group and mil will be there too, during the event and i couldn't ask for more. it's my own little step that i'm taking and its not a big deal for most people, and wasn't for me before, but it is right now.

it's great for me that i am doing this on my own - without h - we always worked these kinds of things together in the past and i was probably too dependent on him and him on me. now i'll find out i can do it on my own and that will boost my confidence immensely and help me take the next step

I'll be there with you in spirit.

Do you know this Mary Oliver poem?

The Journey

One day you finally knew
what you had to do, and began,
though the voices around you
kept shouting
their bad advice--
though the whole house
began to tremble
and you felt the old tug
at your ankles.
"Mend my life!"
each voice cried.
But you didn't stop.
You knew what you had to do,
though the wind pried
with its stiff fingers
at the very foundations,
though their melancholy
was terrible.
It was already late
enough, and a wild night,
and the road full of fallen
branches and stones.
But little by little,
as you left their voices behind,
the stars began to burn
through the sheets of clouds,
and there was a new voice
which you slowly
recognized as your own,
that kept you company
as you strode deeper and deeper
into the world,
determined to do
the only thing you could do--
determined to save
the only life you could save.

labug, if you tell me that you took the time to write that out just for me it will send me into another bout of sobbing!!

that's exactly where i am, aren't i, and for some reason it really made me cry hard when i read it, but also made me feel stronger underneath.

why is it that strangers that you don't even know, can reach out and touch you so deeply, but the people that are closest to you can't even tell what you might be going through?

you're a beautiful person labug - what you sent me feels like a great large hug that is sorely needed and i don't feel so alone now.

thank you

journaling

the poem labug sent me last night helped me to come to a new realization. it sort of hit me suddenly - because i have been very confused about why i have been so reactive and still having so much difficulty in this sitch.

i'm trying to do two things at once - two very big things that have had me both so overwhelmed that when the sitch gets more difficult or challenging, i don't handle it very well.

one, of course, is trying to DB and save this marriage, which as everyone here knows is more than enough for anyone to deal with.

but the second - and here i realize is where i forgot about myself - is learning to live in the world again - i just assumed that because i could do all these things physically again that i was just fine, but now i'm seeing that they are still things that i am learning to be good at doing again. that i still have to sort of talk myself into believing that i can actually do them. that 8 months is not such a long time after 5 yrs and that i have to take it a bit easy on myself

it helped to see that - and now i can add another challenge to my list - need to still work on not getting overwhelmed, which is definitely still left over from the concussion stuff - as labug wrote on her thread - the brain is wired to do certain things and changing them does take time.

so i'm looking forward to continuing to find out more about myself and things to work on as i move forward

hope everyone has a really beautiful day

zig

No typing, I'm a master at cut and paste

This poem is always good for me in those times of---what do I do next?

Put the oxygen mask on my face first.

got it!
i'm printing it out as a reminder that this is my path right now - just saving myself, and everything else is secondary.

we 'fixer" types are too busy trying to make everything else better first before ourselves . maybe that's why it's so hard to receive and make good on the real message in DB - which is take care of yourself and the rest will follow as it is meant to.

Zig, chiming in for the first time. I don't post much because I've been dealing with my own grief, but I've come to a bit of a crossroads and have the clarity that comes with it.

Originally Posted By: zig

i guess i'm asking is it better to GAL off on my own - or GAL in front of him with other people.

Originally Posted By: zig

i'm trying to do two things at once - two very big things that have had me both so overwhelmed that when the sitch gets more difficult or challenging, i don't handle it very well.

one, of course, is trying to DB and save this marriage, which as everyone here knows is more than enough for anyone to deal with.

but the second - and here i realize is where i forgot about myself - is learning to live in the world again...

The second will feed the first, although it should not be the driver. "Learning to live in the world again" IS GALing, IS DBing. And you have to do it for YOU, with the outcome that YOU will be OK, regardless of what choices your H makes. I haven't read back about the accident you refer to, but that's where your focus needs to be, bringing your emotional health up to the place where your physical health has gotten.

It is absolutely heartbreaking as the calendar turns over, the major events occur, the seasons change, and where once we made plans with our Hs we are now making them alone. Every event is another grieving process, but it truly does get easier. I've come to realize that there are *other ways* that are just as good as or better than those I had with H. I just have to be open to them. Change is hard.

Calm blue ocean, Zig, and one day at a time.

Originally Posted By: greatwhitenorth

Zig, chiming in for the first time. I don't post much because I've been dealing with my own grief, but I've come to a bit of a crossroads and have the clarity that comes with it.

Originally Posted By: zig

i guess i'm asking is it better to GAL off on my own - or GAL in front of him with other people.

Perhaps the counter question is, in your heart, are you GALing for you, or to somehow affect your H, how he feels and what he chooses? You must remember that GALing is for you, so whether or not he is there or other people are there to see it is beside the point.

It is better off to GAL as a new way of living that focuses on your enriching your life, your soul, your emotions, your health. Stay in the here and the now!

i'm definitely GALing for myself - i guess i was trying to ask in the context of whether i should go dark a bit or not now. but i'm realizing more and more that all these questions i ask come when i am in slight to extreme panic mode, and now it's just time to take care of myself and move forward as if he's not coming back
Which brings me to this:

Originally Posted By: zig

The second will feed the first, although it should not be the driver. "Learning to live in the world again" IS GALing, IS DBing. And you have to do it for YOU, with the outcome that YOU will be OK, regardless of what choices your H makes. I haven't read back about the accident you refer to, but that's where your focus needs to be, bringing your emotional health up to the place where your physical health has gotten.

you're very right - wish i had realized that months ago - it's good i see it now. and it's never too late to see that kind of thing, is it?
It is absolutely heartbreaking as the calendar turns over, the major events occur, the seasons change, and where once we made plans with our Hs we are now making them alone. Every event is another grieving process, but it truly does get easier. I've come to realize that there are *other ways* that are just as good as or better than those I had with H. I just have to be open to them. Change is hard.

yes - it's the change that i am resisting - no doubt about it, so am trying to focus more, once again on accepting it more fully. i accept it in my mind, but not in my heart, i suppose

Calm blue ocean, Zig, and one day at a time.

thanksnorth - for your words to me - they have helped a lot, as everyone else's has who have supported me here.

i talked to my sweet friend and we decided to leave the men and kids this evening at the barbecue and go off to dinner on our own and then come back for the fun stuff later on. i don't really feel like being there for 5 hrs straight and it will be fun to go to dinner and we can talk about the things i'm going to do next to get my business going.

zig

journaling

my little sale went really well yesterday - considering that the weather forecast was so dire that there were hardly any people out. all those who came - bought something or arranged to call later and custom order, and it was great for me to find out that i could really socialize and converse and just enjoy all the people who are supporting me in this incredible way.

h stopped by - and he was more than impressed - he hasn't seen what i have been working on for the last 8 months and i think it blew his mind a little at how far i'd come along with developing my work. we didn't talk much - just a couple of minutes - but he went on and on - and very genuinely about how beautiful they were - and they really were - once they were hung up in the store they looked gorgeous. he stayed for quite a while - mostly hanging out with his mom and then left , giving me a half hug very tentatively

interesting conversation mil and i had with a woman who came in and said she worked with h up at the uni. we started chatting - and before you know it, she starts talking about h and how amazing he is at his job, and what a great person he is - and then she turns to me and says - oh my zig, he's a real keeper. i just about choked. mil and i sort of looked at each other as if to say - how MAD is this situation going to get!!

i did agree with the woman wholeheartedly - because i do and have always felt the same things. it is surreal though - this convo was not short - it went on for quite a while. i handled it well though, staying cheerful and i can't say i didn't take the opportunity to rave about what he's done there at the uni - but genuinely, because i really feel that way and tell him consistently, even now.

so later we went out to dinner - s, mil and my friends - and mil asked me what that was about and i told her that h has asked me specifically at least 5 times not to mention to anyone at the uni about us being separated and him not living at home.
she kept saying - gosh that is so odd, that is so odd.

to me it sort of fits the picture of what i have read on the boards with mlc etc. - where they separate parts of their life and compartmentalize them. h has himself told me that he wants to keep his life with ow very separate from his life here - so in that way, it's not that odd, i suppose

oh well - it's absolutely gorgeous here this morning and i'm itching to go to the farmer's market - but i have two lazy boys who stayed up too late last night and still haven't woken up. maybe i'll go bang some pots

feel that after this dip down the hole , i have made a further minuscule shift away from h - and now get it that it will just happen bit by bit over time

thanks to all of you that carried me through this last crisis - i'm one step closer to myself and a bit more peaceful

zig

just spoke with h - he'd called multiple times and texted saying he needed to get some stuff from the house right now . i did take a little time before calling him back - turned out he couldn't wait and went and borrowed it from his parents instead.

he was friendly and asked how my show went and i told him i was really pleased. he then went on to say 'i don't meant to criticize (and i did wonder what was coming so was surprised) but i think you are selling the shawls waaay too cheap. we talked for awhile about my reasons for my pricing - and he seemed to accept them (in the past, he would have gone on and on). he encouraged me once again to start selling online and i said that was what i was going to start on this weekend.

we talked about the kids having fun having breakfast in bed ( that's a huge 180 for me - i've always been a bit extreme about food in the bedroom!!) i think he was really surprised that i did that - i really enjoyed it and the boys were thrilled!!

so i got off the phone keeping it really positive ands said we'd see him later

i'm proud of myself - because instead of reacting in my old way and getting into a hissy fit about him calling last minute to stop by and what about my peace of mind , and my space etc etc, i stayed focused and everything turned out well. and i got what i wanted in the end - not to really see him this morning (grin)

Morning Zig,

Funny, I have 2 boys upstairs who stayed up late and are still sleeping also! I had 3 last night. Apparently one had to leave ealy and just got up and left on his own. He did that last time too except I got up and said good bye to him. This time I just slept through it, I guess...

Sounds like you're holding up well. How amazingly odd that the WAS wants all this stuff outside of the M but doesn't want to own up to it or let people know. Somewhere in their psyche, I would hope there is some internal guidepost whispering "if you have to hide this, them maybe its not good for you...."

You should be proud of yourself. You're learning new skills and ways to manage your own emotions and making choices for a better you. Have a great weekend.

Sounds like you're holding up well. How amazingly odd that the WAS wants all this stuff outside of the M but doesn't want to own up to it or let people know. Somewhere in their psyche, I would hope there is some internal guidepost whispering "if you have to hide this, them maybe its not good for you...."

right ces - i hope it's that, and that they eventually LISTEN to it. i think it comes up periodically and that's when i see h acting pained and withdrawing, and then he cycles back into confidence again for a while.

You should be proud of yourself. You're learning new skills and ways to manage your own emotions and making choices for a better you. Have a great weekend.

thank you thank you - taking a bow - i feel better today - yesterday's experience gave me a new level of confidence that i haven't felt in a long long while. i used to feel so confident before, but lost the feeling along the way. i understand so much more now, why i did, of what happened within me, and as i work through all this crazy stuff, i can feel myself letting go of my past.

i'm already having a great weekend ces - and that feel so good to be able to say:)

how's the lawn mowing going...

have a good weekend yourself:)
zig

Hi Zig-
Great job on the shows! That is so empowering.

My H does the same thing, he hasn't told anyone at all what he is doing. Is it shame? I have wanted to blow his cover a number of times and then I remember, "keep the road home paved and smooth...."

Have a great weekend!

"keep the road home paved and smooth...."

thanks fighting - i've been tempted too, but i know that will be ending things for good. no matter what another person is doing, no good ever comes of shaming them .

we know our spouses well - even though we may not know them in their present version, and i do know that in spite of all, h feels great shame and guilt at what he's doing.

just wish that in those very difficult moments i could remember that and understand and keep in the forefront of my mind, that all that anger and blaming on his part comes from that sense of shame rather than from what he really feels towards me.

hey fighting - that's probably what i AM feeling today - empowered - i knew something felt different (grin). and it made me think when i read what you wrote, that i MUST make sure that i do something little - teeny tiny thing everyday that makes me feel empowered - because i sure like this feeling and want to keep it going.

have a great weekend too
zig

The lawn is done and I even stretched out on the lawn chair in the sun for a while! I finally woke my son up around 1:30! Ah the days of staying up all night and sleeping all day!

Zig, this is all great news - what a fantastic achievement for you.

Keep up the good work of empowering yourself. And let us know what works (I could do with some ideas)!

Also thanks for sharing your insight about Hs' shame and guilt.

We do need to be reminded of their pain - when we are often completely overwhelmed by our own. It's really the only thing that explains what they are doing.

thanks NLW - and yes - i will write later what is helping me so much right now -

for now - what is making life MUCH easier is that before i do or say anything and not just applying this to h but with everyone - i talk myself to a point where i EXPECT everything to go well - everything! and just doing that has suddenly made my life a whole lot lighter

but i'm bursting with more empowerment - i went out to h's big do at the kiln's and called before we left with s to make sure that what he had promised was still on - that i could fire the wood kiln for a little bit -

i was expecting to do it just for 20 mins or so - but landed up with him putting me in charge and leaving me to it - getting completely in the groove and working for 2 hours. it was amazing - he wasn't around - too busy hosting the show - a few hundred people there - but at one point i heard him yell - she's back in action

i reconnected in a HUGE way with all our friends again it was amazing - they were so happy to see me and me them

and then before i knew it - a moment of serendipity - the guy on the night shift from midnight to 6 got really sick and there was no one to work it and one of my most favorite people who i used to do this with a lot before the accident - she and i looked at each other gave a huge wicked grin and said - we're doing it.

i think h is a slight bit unnerved - but he left me in charge of the kiln just as before and didn't even come to check (a huge compliment) - and i don't care a hoot what he thinks - i've missed doing that work so much and now tonight i get to go out there (he won't be there) and hang out with an old wonderful friend who i'm so glad to reconnect with - and work like a dog all night and have a blast

sent s off with h's parents - who were also there, and came back to take a nap before going back out. i really don't care what he makes of it - it's the only kiln here where i can do this and so i'm doing it for myself

this was really unexpected and great - i've been waiting for months to be out there at the kiln and now it just happened with no warning.

so off for a nap and will journal tomorrow

zig

ps. mil told me tonight that at the show yesterday - h told her that i must have been working like a dog to get that much work done. mil said that no, zig makes them a lot faster now than she used to, he started arguing that he knew better than she did - so she told him ' you haven't been around for a really long time, how would you know what she is doing or not doing"

she got a really dirty look from him and he walked away!!

hee hee - i thought that was really funny!!

that mil i have - she's determined!!!

zig, is there a place on line to view your work?

I'm so happy for you that your show was such a success!

^^^love the MIL story!

working on it labug - going to make a website this coming week and also try to set up on etsy.

having a "slight " problem with trying to figure out how to photographs each shawl so the pics are brilliant - but hey, with my new 'expect everything to work out well' outlook, i figure the answer will come right as i need it

my ceramics website has been down since the accident so the only way to see pics is if i email them - so that's a bummer. not quite ready to put it up yet, as i have some "issues' to work through with that.

it's my next step t get selling online, and hoping i can start in the next couple of weeks.

thanks - labug - it was really good for me - and i've decided now, that it's all i need to focus on after taking care of myself and s.

hi ces - evil grin at this end!!

That's fantastic Zig!! You're making so much progress and it looks like he is seriously impressed.

thanks yankee - the key fro me now is to just shift to doing things for myself and quit looking over my shoulder to see what h is doing as labug told me!! it's a much nicer place to be in my head

things went amazing last night for me - i had so much fun and laughed so much with my friend - and then she came back here to crash and then spent the afternoon with me - we talked for a long time and then s came home and we had a great time together - laughing and just relaxing.

will post later about our convo - as i have to go into mom mode and cook dinner and get us ready for school tomorrow

take care and hope you're well
zig

ps - i did an amazing job at the kiln - it was one of the best shifts i ever did - everything went beautiful and the best part was that i got to find out that i can still do it and haven't lost my touch as i had been so worried about the last couple of years

zig, you are becoming the woman you were meant to be!

Don't look over your shoulder, your future is in front of you.

thanks labug:) and for helping me along my path - finding my way..

and btw - the conversation i had with my friend - won't get into any details - but the gist of it is that while he was at the conference at the end of march - she was there too, and they stayed up really late one night and talked for hours and he really opened up to her

if anyone has wondered whether the MLC'er knows that they are in MLC, i just got it confirmed that not only does he know he's in MLC, but he recognizes a lot of what he's doing ( but not everything!!!)

some things she told me - that she got from him:

he cannot stop thinking about me and s for one moment.
OW - from what she understood, was not too serious and just something fun, but she did say that since it was long distance it was going to take a lot longer
the house - is genuinely just a place for him to live and not anything more
that he felt he completely lost himself in the relationship and this is about finding and feeling himself again
that he hasn't let go of me one little bit, not even for a second - and that he really understands that he's in a MLC
it went on and on...

we talked about how things could pan out and she said that it would be like starting from scratch again and finding each other, but that both of us needed to be independent before we could do that

i'm still processing everything she said. i for my part told her that i was leaving the door open home, but that things were not anymore about whether only he decides to come back anymore. she agreed and acknowledged a lot the pain that s and i were dealing with and how h couldn't see that right now

she said she questioned him pretty toughly about the way he was going about it and that she was amazed at his honesty. we were well in the middle of the convo, but fil walked in with s and we had to stop.

BEST PART labug, and you'll be so proud of me ( smile) - it didn't make me get my hopes up and have any expectations AT ALL - i just looked at it as an amazing gift - that i got to hear some of his mind during this time - and received info on what i could work on within myself and towards improving the r with h

so this weekend has been EVENTFUL in ways i never imagined - and all because i now only expect things to go well!

later i had a thought - and realized that this is where i need to be:

things have always been about me during this relationship - me having to move to the states, me being the full-time mom, me getting back to work , me having the accident , me in such a bad state after the accident etc etc- let things now be about h - let's forget about me in this sitch for a bit and think about h a little more and what he might need.

i'm good with that - really good:)

hope you had a good work weekend and aren't too tired ? do you get a couple of days off or is it back to the other job?

take care
zig

ps. so much for not getting into details - me the blabbermouth...

Sounds like you're doing really well. I'm impressed. I love hearing about other people's successes here. Good work!

I'm glad to hear you received some positive information and are making progress!

Good luck with everything and keep your head up! You're doing a great job!

thanks jus and hopingandpraying.

i'm assuming you both mean that i am making progress with getting on with my life

just saved myself some "trouble " today.

got a bill for something being moved out of our storage unit. was all ready to point out to h that maybe it would be nice if we checked with each other about "our" possessions before they were moved or used elsewhere (or sold??)

my first tendency was to think he'd taken the equipment and decided on his own what he was going to do with it without consulting me.

luckily i waited and a couple of hours later, wrote a calm email, phrasing it so that it was asking whether the bill was kosher or not and not asking anything about why he had taken it out.

surprise surprise - a short email back explaining what he had taken it out for. he volunteered the info himself in a friendly manner, and the whole thing was over without the potential for damage.

whew!! seeing so much how i;'ve thought the worst first and made it that way. good reminder to think the best first and then deal with it if it turns out different

realized after reading brooklynmom's post to labug, that yesterday when h called to say thanks for helping out at the kiln -i did a couple of major wrong things. one was to offer that he could come over to eat dinner with us so he wouldn't have to cook - he said no very quickly.
the other was - and this is hard to write - that i realized afterwards that i was dominating the conversation way too much - i think i was so nervous really, that i kept going on about how much fun we had and what i had figured out at the kiln and barely let him speak - he tried to talk and say some stuff, but i don't think i let myself focus on him enough and just listen.

my excuses - seriously sleep deprived, trying to get dinner together and an unexpected phone call for him that i didn't have a chance to take a couple of deep breathes before talking to him - i was outside and s just handed me the phone

so i need to work on that - just listening - i definitely missed a chance there, because in the beginning he was really warm and opening up and then i started babbling, and next thing i could sense him being a bit defensive.

gosh when will i GET IT!!!

oh well - keep plodding on, on my own little path

i was a bit wobbly today - trying to figure out all this online selling stuff, and realizing how little i know about it. by dinner time i was definitely wobbly and so s and i drove out to the lake and walked on a trail for an hour . i'm better now and feel the ache a little less.

anyone have any good suggestions on reading material for learning how to listen better - need to brush up on that a bit here!!!

hope everyone had a decent day
zig

Ahh

You will get it. Keep working at it. Doing good Zig. I told you that u were a wonderful woman and becoming more awesomeness.

As to listening. Well shut your thoughts when someone speaks. Breath and focus on what they are saying.

Don't lip read. U will be wrong. Try this. Go to you nearest mirror and say "olive oil" make no sound just move the lips. Does it look like ur saying I love you?

thanks rick - i don't feel so "awesomeness" right now - i'm okay though.

i just have this "feeling" that there's another bomb coming this week, but i am just going to focus on myself and stay calm and try to be as grounded as i can be.

i'm join got keep expecting the best - of myself and everyone around me

by the lip reading thing - do you mean that if i'm not listening, then it's like trying to lipread - not hearing what someone else is really saying? you're right - that's food for thought

hope you're doing well?
thanks
zig

good morning here - i am starting to se the positive effects of my new efforts with son's behavior - he is so much more relaxed around me as he's responding to my being more relaxed and buoyant and just happier.

i haven't given him too much attention - in the sense that i've just been cheerful and expected everything to be fine.

this morning after breakfast though, he came to me and wanted to be carried and hugged for a really really long time. - it was as if he couldn't get close enough or hold me tight enough.

i'm glad he felt open enough to do that. for once i din't try to "solve" anything or ask him anything, just held him and laughed and nuzzled his neck. he would have gone on endlessly if i hadn't insisted that now we had to get to school.

i have no idea what he's feeling or going through, but i've decided that i am just join got be here - and not try even to fix that in anyway as i've been doing all these months. just let it be and he'll come to me

off to easy land - wish i was a little more savvy about the internet and all this computer stuff - well, i'm sure i will be in a few days

zig

sheesh my new computer puts in the most bizarre sp. corrections i've ever seen

easy land - etsy land!!

join got = going to

WAIT-Why AM I Talking?

zig u need an FB page? it will improve your computer knowledge.

Rick, you are on to something.

WAIT-Why AM I Talking?

????

i guess i do (says zig hesitantly)

always stayed away from that stuff, ya know - but this weekend it came up at the kiln and now since i'm this new person and all, i found myself thinking, hmm i suppose i'll have to go down that road too!!

i'm slightly embarrassed (i think, but not sure) to say that i've never been on face book (ducking as all the rotten apples come my way:)

so how will it improve my computer knowledge?? i figured i'd need the knowledge to get on fb first

yeah yeah guys, i'm getting there and then you can all come see and laugh. but first i've got to figure out really simple things like shipping options for the etsy - that's the kind of stuff that makes my head crazy - too many unimportant details that are very important!!

i think after i get that shawl store going i may start a second one for the ceramics - i've got enough stock in the basement to fill a store!! was pulling out some work to give as gifts to the photographer, model and layout guy, and i started thinking, [censored] these are gorgeous maybe i can sell them.

and that made my mind go to how, if i do, h and i should share the money as he worked as hard as i did getting all that work done. brought a bit of a lump to my throat - for a couple of reasons - remembering how great we used to work together, and then feeling so sad that for all these years after the accident, i couldn't see the beauty of them - and now when i can again i feel that i lost so much time and connection to everything that was important to me.

goddamn stupid 19 yr old reaching for a cd on the floor....

sorry , had to vent a bit.

part of my life lesson during this time, is to STOP using external reasons for my inner unhappiness - was definitely doing that for a minute back there

well off to get my images

you guys figure out, meanwhile if there's a way to learn more computer stuff by some type of osmosis

life is good! right?

zig

^^^W*A*I*T is an acronym asking "Why, am I talking" as a reminder to do more listening & less talking

FB is a great way to market stuff. You learn to up load and download pics and programs. And as of today you can donate your organs via FB. Really.

ces and rick:
Sweet!!

Thanks, ces for translating for me. Usually we have to do that for Rick. :0 j/k

Yeah and I love the attention. Lol

thanks for the WAIT thing - i told you my brain really doesn't work that well - especially on really obvious things - i stared at that word for quite a while before i asked!!
it will really come in handy - in fact i've already started applying it. nc with h today but tried it in other situations.

been tearing my hair out with the image stuff today - grr - but a very positive aspect to that, and i'll use anything that works - hardly had time to think about the sitch - well a bit every time i took a break - of course - but not too many of those.

luckily i have a savvy 10 yr old and we love to sit together and figure things out on the computer

did his fav dinner thing - eating sushi at the local co-op, so he's just happy happy, and i did a quick grocery shopping too

heard this wonderful analogy on life and how to just allow things to happen. don't know if i can explain it as well as she did, but i'll try.

it's like the locks that a ship has to go through - you just let things be as you go through each lock - allow the water to rise and then get to the next level, and then allow that water to rise and then to the next - it's sort of the process we're all going through right now, and when we fight it, that's when we feel bad. you don't try to climb over the gates or ask the water to rise faster or try to skip a lock - you get there when you get there

the image is soothing me - a lot - and allowing me to just be where i am - knowing that i'll get to the next level when it's time, and that not forcing anything is the best way. the pace we move at is just the pace we move at...

be well
zig

head is spinning this morning - really off balance, but trying to focus.

my 10.30 yoga class will help and then probably the appointment with the IC - haven't been for 2 weeks, don't really want to go...

maybe i just have to let go of the pressure i am feeling about doing all this computer work - i'm trying too hard here- to get it all to look perfect

bloody perfectionism curse - really gets me ungrounded and a mess

oh well - maybe some meditation to get me out of this negative groove i'm in

"bloody perfectionism curse - really gets me ungrounded and a mess"

Acknowledging this^^^^is huge. So what to do about it? It is impossible and undoable to achieve perfection. It will never happen. Sit back and make a metal image of what perfection looks like. Come back and tells us.

what perfection looks like?

ugh ugh ugh - the images that brought up were ugly and sad - memories of how in the past i would rather criticize h because he made the bed sloppily rather than go give him a sexy kiss and mess up the sheets even more!!

the way the whole house had to be spick and span before a party, instead of just getting myself a drink and enjoying preparing for it together..

the way i always said no to going out because i had to get back in the studio and make one more piece

oh the list goes on and on - i was so busy being "perfect" with all these trivial things, that i lost sight of what i needed to work at and be the best at - my relationships with the people that i loved the most and who loved me so immensely

so here i am today - still fighting that urge to be perfect with my work and accept that it doesn't have to be that way - that a good effort is more than enough, especially if i enjoy the process thoroughly - most importantly if i enjoy it and not let it consume me.

thanks for the question rick -keep them coming - they help me to get to the crux of the matter - so much help and support here, that i know the universe is looking out for me in a huge way

zig

journaling:

it's been a tough day today - missing h a lot - but also sensing him thinking about me. i've noticed that over the months - there are some days where i can so intensely feel his energy - asked him about it once and he admitted that there were days where he just couldn't think of anything else.

so he called - the house phone and then my cell - but didn't leave a message. so instead of my usual ignoring it, i called back (he's been withdrawn since sunday, not even calling s). he sounded a bit nervous on the phone - wanted to ask if i could keep s friday night (his turn) because he wanted to go to an opening and go out after that. long explanation about how s really wants to go with him but it's not really appropriate etc etc, suggested that maybe s and i could go but took that back. i just said that it was fine that s was here and he said he'd talk to him about it tonight.

he knows full well that s is going to be upset, not only with the change in the schedule, but also that he doesn't get to go with him to the opening.

he also incited me to the opening of the kiln on sunday, which is also a bit of an event. guess he thought it would be rude not to, as i'd worked the kiln.

saturday is the may festival at s's school. i signed up at school today to work a shift in the morning. don't know if he'll be there - will see.

so another weekend with quite a bit of contact - i was actually planning to overhaul my house on sat and sun, thinking that s would be gone friday afternoon - but now with all these other things going on , it will have to wait.

had my time with IC today - told her some of the stuff that had happened and we talked about the first time about h really being in MLC. she said that it was one of the hugest life adjusting events that could happen to a person, and that it was sad how lightly people took it, because it was so painful and intense

several times she said that she really liked what i was saying - about what patterns i saw and how i was working to change them. when i told her that i had realized that so much in the marriage had been about me, and now it just needed to be about h, she was really complimentary. she thought that it was that kind of attitude that could possibly turn this thing around.

after i told her some of the stuff that our friend had told me last sunday about what h said, she thought that he wasn't about to go running out to file for divorce anytime soon.

we talked about how right now, i can just focus on becoming stronger , more centered and work on my own issues. she didn't think it was a good idea to move too far from him and become too independent - have to talk with her more about what she really meant by that - as we were running out of time.

at the end -we talked a bit about him and i talking together - how he's said he wants to many time, and that now i'm not so comfortable about coin that with him as i see how he draws the conversation into only about what is wrong with us. she said several times that she thought it would be good if i brought him in with me to see her, even though she knew how averse he was to therapy. that from the sound of it, we didn't know how to even start having a constructive conversation and she could help us a lot with that.

i pointed out to her that he didn't even know that i was seeing her, and she replied, well then you're not ready for that either (earlier we talked about what happened about going back to the child therapist and we agreed that he was not ready for it)

i told her that i hadn't mentioned it to him because i didn't think it was any of his business.

so all in all even though i had been thinking i wouldn't continue going -( i could use the money to pay for yoga, frankly.) i think i may keep going.

i came home and meditated, and now i am calmer - we had agreed during the mlc discussion that this could take another year or so, and she also agreed that what i did and how i did it could be very significant in how things went.

so it's back to myself, and staying as grounded as i can - and looking at the big pic and not focusing on instant gratification, but instead on inner peace and being responsible for myself.

i've noticed with s that the more i am taking care of myself, the more relaxed he is - good thing for me to see and i believe i can apply that to h as well. (when he told me about the house, and we were talking for awhile at one point he blurted out - "i don't have to take care of you any more" - that really stuck with me. i find that if i listen better, he does give me a lot of info about where he's at in his mind

another thing coming up next week - going on s's school trip to Boulder for 3 days and camping - we're car pooling with the other families and kids, so am a bit apprehensive about which car i am going to land up in.

h is going too, and has asked several times if i'm going and still agreed to go too. we don't have to go at all - so i find that a bit interesting. he's insisting on pooling w/the others rather than add our car, which is unusual - i think it's to make sure we're not riding the whole way there and back together - which works for me - it will be a bit odd - all the others are really cohesive families and we were one of those last year this time... so i'm finding it a bit strange that he wants to be in that situation.

any thoughts on that, anyone?

i'm finding myself thinking that i won't go - but that would be acting in the old way - letting them go on a trip and staying home. got to keep that 180 going

Your answers are perfectionist. Full of unrelated details. What does perfection look like?

When I first heard someone say that you dont have to be perfect to be a perfectionist. It was an Aha moment for me. I was sure that I was not a perfectionist cause nothing was ever exactly how I wanted it to be.

Maybe regarding the trip to Boulder you could send your H a simple email. Something like:

Hey H,
I was really looking forwarded to going on the Boulder trip. It would definitely be a new experience for me. Traveling and camping sound fun and I thought it was time for me to get out there a bit more.
Just wanted to check in with you and see if you thought I should sit this one out. I know things are rocky between us and S10 having a great time on the trip is my top priority, I would not want to jepordize that in any way.
Let me know what you think??
Zig

I think this might be good because it recognizes his feelings and validates. I dont think the 180 of you going on the trip is worth it if H is pi$$ed for the whole trip that you went. You can do other 180s while they are gone.

I dragged my H to C and it did not work one little bit. Its not worth it till they are ready. And they are really really slow.

well - i either bunged up REALLY bad tonight or i did a good thing.

i drew a HUGE boundary with fil.

i haven't talked about him much - but i believe strongly that between him and his father, the reasons for h and his sister way of dealing with life are largely due to the way he deals with life. mil is the only compassionate one in the family and she was out of town tonight. i saw clearly how she holds things together, in a way i've never seen before.

fil called this evening to say that his sister had been in town for 3 days and could s and i stop by because they wanted to see him, and they were leaving first thing in the morning. i asked if h had already come by to see them, and he said yes. i talked w/ him about how this situation was getting a bit ridiculous - that h couldn't call and say he wanted to take s and why hadn't he told me earlier.

i agreed to bring s after his martial arts class finished at 7.30 and asked if we could eat with them as it was going to be so late.

when we got there - the vibes in the room were palpable - that's when i realized how much mil soothes everyone. the three of them were like being with 10 h's in the state he is right now. i breathed deep and tried to relax, but within minutes aunt #1 was talking with s about what a busy summer he was going to have - and mentioning all these trips and plans with fil and mil. i was like, what's this about -

then they bring up a trip that i have specifically told mil that i am not happy about s going on and we haven't agreed to it. the story behind it basically is the following:
i drew a very specific boundary about s spending anytime with h's sister if her lover is present (for anyone who hasn't read my past posts h's sister is having an affair fro 2 yrs, which cost her her divorce, with a woman who is married to a man with a 6 yr old daughter and the man also has a lover, and they all spend time in the same house together)

i explained to mil, that what they did with their daughter and what they accepted was their own business, but that i was going to emotionally protect our s by NOT exposing him to a situation like that. it is bad enough that he is living through our sitch, but i'm not adding another layer to it.

h's sister has announced that she is bringing her lover with her here for their grandparents 70th wedding anniversary this summer and fil and mil are appalled but won't draw a boundary with her. that is their business, but i've made it clear NOT to expect s to be present and that it will be up to them to explain it to him, not upto me.

h's sister and s are SO close, that the proposition of me drawing this boundary is scary (not to mention h's reaction when he hears about this, which he hasn't yet, as far as i know)

so back to the trip - it's for the sisters best friends' wedding in CA and there's no way mil can guarantee that the lover won't be there, so i haven't agreed.

much more difficult that just the above is the fact that mil and fil have consistently over the years made plans directly with s, got him all excited and then asked us,, so we have been in a position where we had to say yes. there have been repeated conversations about this over the years, and h and i have always stuck together on this issue. except this time, fil asked h and weeks later, mil asked me, to which i gave the above answer. she's put it on the shelf - not wanting to deal with the real issue which is sisters' actions.

so i kind of couldn't hold it together and 5 mins after this trip came up as if it was going to happen, i walked back into the room, told fil and his sisters that i was sorry but s and i simply couldn't stay there and that i needed to draw a boundary with this family and left with s.

s was of course upset - we went downtown - i cried a bit, got him pizza and came home to eat.

after he ate we sat and talked for a while and i let him know that that was probably not the best way for me to handle things, but that i wasn't feeling particularly strong today,. i openly referred to the separation - for the first time - and i think that was hard for him - saying that difficult issues were going to come up and that we needed to resolve them

he went off on a tangent talking about staying positive and started just smiling - poor fellow - i didn't make it easier for him tonight , did i?

the worst of it is that fil didn't say a word, let me walk off and i know will act as if nothing even happened. knowing him he won't even let mil know, or will say something like - zig acted strange and just took off.

i'm so mad at myself - that was the old me - when things got difficult i had to get out of there..
but this was different - i was making an all out effort to make sure s spent time with h's family, and i just felt as if i got completely disrespected.

there''s a ruthless passive-aggressiveness about that family that crushes me. they want what they want and they are going to get it anyway they can, no matter how much it hurts anyone else.

i see fil live that with mil - and h with me and i guess i just couldn't take it tonight.

i forgive myself already for being weak and exposing s to my pain - but it must be the approaching full moon that has all of us in a state - most threads i'm reading, everyone seems to be struggling a bit more this week

so here i am - a bit in shock about what happened this evening - totally unexpected.

i've thought many times about calling fil and apologizing for not "behaving" but then find myself thinking - i need my actions to speak here, not my words.

he's not getting it - just like h, he is trying to arrange everything so that it's like before the separation - and all of us live as if nothing shitty is going on. i know that inside he is agonized terribly, and really hurting about this, but he cannot just pretend that things are going to be as they were. i have already had a conversation about this with him a while ago and made it clear that he cannot assume anymore that h and i will do things together like celebrate s's birthday at their house together as we always have etc and i though he respected that.

oh shite - i should just go sleep - this day needs to be done

as for perfectionism - well as you can see from the above - i'm not anywhere near being perfect!!

sorry for this long rant - i really needed to vent bad - i'm just upside down now, and cannot think straight.

i really want to talk to mil, she's just coming back from a 3 day work trip , flying in just about now, but i hate to bombard her with this the moment she lands. will wait until she calls me, for once

hi bklynmom - thanks for your reply.

i'm a little confused - you said that h might be pi$$ed that i'm going - in fact i don't think he is at all.

he was thinking of going and asked if i was going (weeks ago) and i said yes i was thinking of going and then he agreed to go also. then he asked me a couple of weeks ago when plans had to be finalized whether i thought he should go,and said strangely that maybe s didn't want him there.i replied really warmly and said i was sure s wanted him there very much, and would love both of us being there for once, and didn't he remember how he loved it when he was a kid and his parents came to his games? he agreed

but maybe i read it all wrong and wasn't really listening - in fact now that i think of it, maybe it is too much pressure for him for me to be there, let alone for me.

i've decided to make things as easy for him as possible - no pressure, completely backed off and down. so maybe you're right - i should just let them go.

i don't even know whether s knows that i am coming and if he may be really disappointed that i'm not there. the last couple of trips with his dad have been disasters and part of why i wanted to go was to be there for him.

not making any decisions tonight for sure - this one needs a couple of days of thinking.

sheesh for the amount of 'Good Advice" i have given out recently - i should take some of that myself right about now

journaling

yesterday's events have really triggered me off bad. i'm trying to sort through what is really going on with me. woke up at 5, really upset and have spent the last hour crying and trying to calm down.

i'm scared for s. i'm scared about the things going on with h and his family and how that is shaping his personality because he is so heavily influenced by them.

i know my fears are real because mil and i talked about them openly - really openly in the last month - and she agreed with me - in fact she said that it was hers and my job to save s from becoming like them.

i'm upset because i don't know how to do that. last night, when i tried to talk with s about all this, it scared me how he stayed really quiet - just wrapped around me and then got really quiet and we just sat there together for about 10 mins. then he lifted his head up which was buried in my lap, put this fake smile on his face and said well its better that we are just very cheerful and acted as if nothing was wrong.

i know why i am so so upset - i think i have been upset about this for 10 yrs - always have been conscious and deeply worried about this, and always kept it deep inside and now it's coming out in a big way.

i had no idea that i was holding so much about this and towards fil.

i'm mad at myself too - over the years - we let s be with them an inordinate amount of time - it was as if i was helpless in how that happened - and i always felt this discomfort about how we did it, but could never articulate it in a clear way for myself or to h.

and now, i'm freaked out because s is so deeply entangled with them and on one level they do have an incredible relationship together that i have always encouraged and supported wholeheartedly. in fact the only reason that they've seen as much of him as they have in the last 8 months is because i've taken him there. when s is with h, they barely see s.

i'm finding that during this sitch when ever i am having a huge emotional reaction, its not just to what's going on presently, but it is bringing up huge amounts of stuff that i have not dealt with in the past.

so in some sense, i have made progress - i recognize that really clearly now, and am just going to face it and learn as much from it as i can;

i think part of my reaction here is mixed up with my feelings about how shocked and distressed i have actually been over the years with fill's behavior. he has had multiple affairs - and mostly with men - because he is actually gay, they have been short, and then he's worked through them and they've got back together - he came out to h and his sisters about 6 yrs ago - but announced that he was renouncing that part of his life (after which he had another affair about 3 yrs ago } mil has talked openly about it to me, including the fact that he never even bothered to use a condom, and i'm confused about her reasons for staying, but i am not one to judge her decisions.

that's the scary part for me and the one i have to face now - there is a certain RUTHLESSNESS about the way they go about getting what they want that SCARES THE [censored] OUT OF ME!! and it always has. and i think i faced that yesterday

so i'm becoming aware now, that for all these years i have carried all this info and told myself that it was fil doing this and not h - because he seemed so different and so disapproving of his father's actions, and now during this crisis, i guess i'm dealing with the fact that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

i'm also finding out that for myself, that all this stuff has actually upset and distressed me way more than i ever realized, and it's time for me to work through this and accept that it's a part of s and my life and find out what is the right way to help mitigate the effects of it for s.

i hope i can be up to the challenge here.

what i'm dealing with now - it's a hard one to face when i read my tag line - quiet acceptance of this?

i suppose with time, even this...

bklynmom - thank you SO much for your thoughts - they helped me a lot. by the time i took the boys to school and came back, i felt much more calm and refocused.

Originally Posted By: BklynMom

"it's time for me to work through this and accept that it's a part of s and my life and find out what is the right way to help mitigate the effects of it for s."

I think we all hide the truth from ourselves. We dont even know that we are hiding anything. Even though you and MIL have talked about some of the problems you havent focused on solutions. Therapy and 12 step programs can help you with that.

you are very right about that- we have to look for solutions and therapy can help - i will also look into the 12 step thing. i need to refocus on what my needs are here in terms of what i have to work on with myself

Most people come from messed up families in one way or the other. Why do some people carry deeper effects than others? That is what we have to figure out for ourselves and our children. I look at my mother and her 7 brothers and sisters all raised by my grandfather a raging alcoholic. Out of 7 siblings 3 are addicts, 2 are nuts and 2 are upstanding citizens. Each of us reacts to hardship differently and your son has to know that even though his family is difficult that its okay. He doesnt need to hide it. I know being honest is a really good starting place.

yes i tried to be honest with him yesterday and stressed that what we were dealing with wasn't good or bad, it was just a problem that needed to be fixed. thank you for reminding me that all families are messed up. i think for me there is a trigger here. for 10 yrs h stressed incessantly how dysfunctional MY family and i were and that that was the reason for all our problems. i really believed him, because of my own insecurities, and actually looked to his family to "learn" how to be more functional. now, during this sitch, aim finding out, to my utter shock that there is dysfunctionality that is so deep and so damaging and i feel like i am floundering, trying to find my feet in the muck.

one thing that i don't think that i have mentioned - is that fill's mother committed suicide when the kids were young - which was devastating for them - especially since she shot herself in the head with a shotgun and the youngest found her when he came home from school. over the years, when h pushed me to my limit and beyond, i would sometimes say to him - i know why your grandmother did what she did - i know shocking - but to this day i still feel as if i know why. grandfather went ahead and married another woman 6 weeks after she died - and went on to have 3 more wives - fil and his siblings still talk about that as if they are traumatized about it

Some of more of my thoughts. Take what you like...

You should start therapy with you and your son. Your S should not be hiding behind a smile, he needs to have a safe place to talk about it.

you're right - i think i'll take him to the child therapist that h and i went to once. one thing i am concerned about is that s has sort of the same attitude towards therapy as h does - that something must be deeply wrong with a person if they go to therapy. maybe we don't have to use that word. i feel a bit odd about taking him without talking with h about it - any thoughts on that?

I think you should consider why you are banning your S from any contact with your SIL. To me it feels like you are hiding your SIL bad behavior.

my reasons are very clear to me -i believe that dysfunctional behavior is something that is learned. s hanging out with SIL and her friend with another 6 yr old child and his grandparents - all having SO MUCH FUN - is a crazy message to give a child. the subliminal message he receives in one way or the other is that it's okay to allow oneself to be part of any dysfunctional situation, and that everyone can pretend that everything is okay. it's what is going on in our sitch right now - we are all around him acting happy and not saying anything in a group setting - you couldn't even tell h and i are separated when we are at their house together - and so there's all this pain underneath that no one is allowed to express in any way. it's hardly surprising that s is reacting the way he is - he has learned that from his family.

Your S will have many different friends throughout his teenage years. Many with different values then your own. You cant keep him from all the unpleasant people he will meet. Your son seems quite astute and have you thought about having a open conversation with him about your SIL decision. That it is not something you agree with but she has decided that she is doing xyz ... Without harsh judgement just that it wouldnt be your choice.

so , something along the lines of: s, your aunt that you absolutely adore, had an affair while she was married to her partner, confessed it, worked on the relationship for a few months, but decided it was too much trouble (her partner divorced her) and went back to the woman she was having the affair with. now that woman is married to a man with whom she has a 6 yr old daughter, who is also having an affair with another woman, but even though i don't agree with what your aunt is doing, i' understand that you really want to hang out with her. it does not make me comfortable to know that you would be hanging out with your aunt's friend and i would prefer that you don't.

can you tell a 10 yr old something like that? heck, while i'm at it might as well tell him what his dad is doing also

Why do you refer to SIL boyfriend as her lover. It seems like a condesending term, havent they been together 2 years now. Does she refer to him as her lover? We all need to accept what is.

yes you're right - that is condescending of me, isn't it? i actually don't know how SIL thinks of her and what term she uses - all i know is that when sil talks to me about her sitch she seems a bit oblivious to what she is doing and only wants to have fun.

i guess, if i'm brutally honest - i'm a bit mad at SIL - she arranged to meet h in another town with OW. h and ow babysat the little girl -while sil and her friend and the husband worked. for me that is beyond what i can handle in terms of supporting family. just 3 months before that sil and i talked at x'mas when she was here, and she was so disapproving of what h was doing and so supportive of me wanting to work on the marriage.

so either she was pulling my leg, and saying what she thought i wanted to hear, or she cannot correlate her actions with her words. i guess it runs in the family -

Regarding the trip. I guess I misread your post. It sounded like your H didnt want to travel in the same car as you and didnt want you to go but I guess I misread it. Either way why not just ask H if he would like you to go. I think that asking is a win/win. You validate that there is a problem in the relationship and you are willing to take his feelings into consideration when deciding.

wherein lies the crux of th problem - when you ask h what he wants, he simply won't tell you - he just says i don't know, or withdraws. if i ask him directly if he would like me to go, he will either say yes to avoid whatever he thinks he's trying to avoid - or he sees it as a huge amount of pressure.

You are doing great. Be gentle with yourself.

thanks so much for your questions - they have made me think a lot - and even though i know my answers were long and explanatory, in my mind, i am trying to shift my perspective and be more open minded about all of this. i realize that holding all this and feeling resentful about it is not the right way to go about it. i see myself pulling fil, mil and sil's behavior into the sitch with h and need to separate them out. i see more clearly that for me it's more and more a moral and ethical problem that i have and that's what distresses me so much -

just like everyone else here, having to continually overextend myself in forgiving and letting pass and letting go of every detail sometimes gets exhausting, and i think over this, i've come to some emotional limit.

hearing your calm words helps me to put things into a bit more perspective

thanks
zig

You should absolutely consultant with your H before you start therapy with you and your son. You should also not jump into it and really find a good and qualified person. There are many many terrible therapist. Find the right one through personal recommendations, dont settle for a hack.

I will write more later.

Hugs

the therapist for children that we found came highly recommended.

i asked h to go with me and we went once about a month ago - by the end of the appointment i think she'd 'read" h, and asked him to work on himself and be more free and expressive with his emotions as it was obvious that s was modeling after h.

h doesn't seem to want to go anymore. it's taking him a long tome to process what took place there - and he's not ready to face it.( on the other hand, if i am to be truly honest - he took a really long time coming around, didn't make the next appointment as we agreed and i got a bit fed up when he asked if he should make it, and said well it seems as if you don't want to go so what's the point of going. not my best moment - and i have been waiting to rectify that and let him know that i would rather go than not.)

we had agreed together, that s was not to be a part of the therapy at least for now, unless the therapist recommended that things were very concerning. i was against s going to any kind of therapy - just for the reasons you stated, but now, after seeing his coping skills, i am getting more and more concerned

the last couple of weeks i have reassured myself that s is doing much better - because i too want to believe that, but he was just riding on the excitement of h buying a house and all the kiln firing events that made him feel more connected to h.

i knew that deep down - h has a wonderful way of getting s really excited about stuff - but with the house, there's a bit of an agenda behind it - he needs very much to know that s is very happy right now, and he knows that involving s in a building project is close to s's heart. the sad thing is that eventually, even s will not be able to ignore the fact that the house is for h and him and i don't have anything to do with it, and reality will hit again.

as for consulting h about going with s for therapy - just the thought of it scares the shite out of me right now. and that sounds pathetic doesn't it?

the real issue here is that how this separation affects s is the BIG sensitive trigger for h. he simply cannot deal with it for more than a few minutes - for him to acknowledge it fully is for him to look at what he's doing and i just don't think he's ready for that. i believe that he will react so strongly that i'm not sure i can handle it right now.

and that's even more pathetic - that i can't handle it for son's sake?

maybe later after i am feeling less fragile, i can get a better handle on what to do.

right now, after the events of last weekend, h has withdrawn fiercely and i know that part of what i'm dealing with here is the disappointment of that and how his withdrawals affect me. at least now i am more cognizant of my reactions and even though they are there, they are a little less weighted.

i decided to email h and ask if he would go with me to the therapist for s. before i send it, i would love some feedback on what i wrote

thanks
zig

HI
there is something i'd like to discuss with you. it is regarding our last conversation, when you had called to ask whether you should make an appointment with C, on the day when we had earlier agreed that we would go.

i have put alot of thought into my reaction to you and in recognizing my own role in the pattern that plays out between us.

it pretty much goes like this. you and i agree on something, then time passes and there is no indication that it is being carried out. i become upset , while at the same time trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. then i become impatient, and when you are finally ready to deal with it, i react by saying "well, you didn't want to do it anyway, so what's the point"

in the end the one that loses is s.

i am sorry that i reacted in that way. i believe that you were trying to say that we should go, even though it was really hard for you to do, and i basically blew off your efforts, because you didn't do it in the time frame that we agreed on. i am learning that each person handles things in their own time, and that over the years, i always became impatient because it took you longer to process things than it took me to do so.

we do really need to go do this for s - i think you and i could learn alot about how to help him through this.

i would much rather think that he is fine, because it is very painful for me to acknowledge that he is not. but it was that very attitude over the last 10 yrs that allowed me to be reckless in my behavior, within our family. i would like us to use this time now to rectify that as much as possible.

if you have changed your mind and would prefer not to go, i understand, but i would like to say that i would like to see us go together so that we are on the same page about everything to do with s.

i called this morning and asked when they had an appointment available next week - the only ones open are 10 and 11 am on monday (7th). would the 10 am one be good for you?

i need to cancel by tomorrow, so if you could let me know this evening or in the morning that would be great.

what do you guys think?

thanks zig

I think you are wayyyy over enmeshed and involved in his family, and are projecting your hurt and anger onto his family in myriad ways. Back off. Get out. It is HIS family. And it is not suddenly a horrible family.

As for SIL, it sounds like her partner is in an open M. Thus, the term "affair" sounds pretty inaccurate. You may not approve of her lifestyle,

For the email -- I think it would be good NOT to send it. It is really pretty clearly mostly about you and your needs, whether you see it or not. It is a lot about trying to get H to see the light. It is a lot about your M and less about your son. Try this:

"Hi,

Sorry I was so rude and unappreciative about your offer to schedule our next appointment with C. It wasn't fair to you or S. I can and will try to do better.

Since I shot down your offer, I figured it was on me to make the next appointment. They only had two times next week, Monday at 10 or 11. I had them schedule us for 10 in the hopes that it would work for you. Let me know if 10 works, or if I should switch it to 11.

If neither of those times works, I hope you'll give me a do over. "Yes, it would be great if you'd schedule the next appointment. Thanks!"

Apologies again. My reactiveness was uncalled for and not at all helpful."

dont have time to read your whole email but its wayyyyy tooooo long.

I like ot suggestion

thanks old-timer - i need a real kick in the butt here - yes, i am too enmeshed in that family and it's freaking me out to find out how i get pulled in by them.

i guess i'm really hurt by their total disregard for my feelings on the subject, in spite of them feeling exactly the same thing.

i guess i'm also really scared that when it's time for h to bring ow over they will just accept it and i feel so shamed by that.

so i have a lot to work through, and i AM projecting all my [censored] onto all of them and it [censored], because i know that i' doing it because i'm hurting.

about SIL - well neither mil or fil can stand what she's doing, and complain about it to me all the time and so did h - until he started his own affair. in fact h was vociferously against it and only 2 months before his own affair told his sister that she needed to stop what she was doing and go back to her wife.

so here i am, still holding on to my principles, while they are saying one thing and doing another - i swear it feels like they are all in MLC.

i know i have to lessen the contact with them, and not take on the responsibility of making sure s's relationship with them stays consistent. that is h's job, not mine.

and here i go, defending myself once again.

as for your description of my email - wow - i have a lot to learn, don't i? there i was thinking that i was making it all about him, but it was still about me, wasn't it? still trying to prove that i'm right, still trying to show him on some level what he's doing.

[censored] [censored]
no wonder my db'ing efforts aren't working - i don't even know where to start to even begin to get it right. i was just trying to own what i did and it just lands up sounding wrong.

well ,if you have the time, i would appreciate more advice on how to go about this. i don't even know whether i should say anything, because after i posted i started thinking that maybe i shouldn't push at all, shouldn't say anything.

i feel under so much pressure about s - all the family and friends keep telling me we should go - h doesn't really want to , and i find it really painful to sit there with him.

thank you again
zig

mil called earlier today to ask what had happened - when i told her , she was upset at fil - they had ,, she thought, specifically decided they weren't going to take s with them on the trip. fil actually told her that i was the one who brought up the trip

i explained my feelings and she really validated them. we couldn't talk long because she had a meeting, but said she wanted to talk more about it and they had handled it really badly and i was right in what i had felt.

i told her i wasn't proud of what i had done but that i had left more because i was scared rather than angry and i just couldn't take it right then

we didn't resolve anything as there wasn't time, but i do believe that i am just going to let her take care of things with fil. i believe she will be much better at communicating with him -than i can ever hope to be.
.

i've also decided to wait on the appointment issue with h. there is no point in pressuring him - if he really wanted to go, he would have pushed himself to make his point . i feel i need to lay low with him - back off completely - so there is no pressure at all

he has withdrawn this week fiercely since the events of last weekend, and after a conversation with my mom today - she pointed out how so many things that happened could be taken as pressure by him - even from his friends and from what his mom said to him

and as my sweet friend pointed out today - i can ride in the car with her, and that i shouldn't miss this for the world - the kids are going to their first Pentathlon and have been training for months. i'm just going to go hang out with all my lovely friends, and h will be right there next to me - as he always does when we socialize with this group - but i can see that we are doing it in this case as a family for s not for anything else.

getting back to my good place in my mind - these "crisis" need to stop happening - i really have to work on that in a big way - i'm wearing myself down, and that isn't even a part of what h is contributing!!

i listed to my mom all the things i needed to work on within myself - so it is clearer for me

"getting back to my good place in my mind - these "crisis" need to stop happening - i really have to work on that in a big way - i'm wearing myself down, and that isn't even a part of what h is contributing!!"

Yes.

And, the best way you can help your son is to NOT put him in a place where he is supposed to be your emotional support right now. Not his job. And, it automatically puts him in the middle. But, more important, a child should not ever have to try to manage the emotional welfare of a parent. Not good. Voice of experience here.

But, more important, a child should not ever have to try to manage the emotional welfare of a parent. Not good

is that what you understood that i was doing yesterday, because i said that i cried in front of him for a few seconds? because i acknowledged that i was having a bit of a tough time coping yesterday.

i have been very careful to be really strong in front of s throughout all of this time. except for yesterday

yesterday when i was emotional, i said to him very clearly that it was okay for me to be a bit sad, and he could give me a hug, but he didn't need to feel in anyway that he needed to make me feel better - that was my job,

in the beginning of this sitch i noticed that he was trying to take over h's role in taking care of me as h had done, and i explained very clearly to him that that was not his job, that i was his parent and i would and could take care of him very well. he relaxed and stopped doing that completely.

it is very clear to the family and our friends that he feels more stable and is more comfortable and at home with me during the week he is with me. even after 8 and a hlf months he only sees this as home - still refuses to take even one toy or book to h's house - only has his clothes and a couple of books that h got him there. he refuses to have play dates there and only one of his friends knows that his father doesn't live at home

all the writing that i do here - i only vent here - not in front of him or anyone else except my mom, mil and one friend. i have been ultra careful to make this as safe and secure a home for s, and even though i might not be too great in my mind with all of this, i feel that i have done a good job with s

if there is something that i wrote that made you sense that i was using s as an emotional support, i hope you will point it out to me, so that i can be more aware of what i'm doing.i would hate to think that i was doing that with s and putting that sort of pressure on him

i really appreciate your input, old-timer - i must be in bad shape here for you to have come to help me

it's time for me to calm down and just read old posts and realign myself with my goals and stop freaking out every time h withdraws.

thank you
zig

Wow, a lot can happen in 14 hours!

The email you wrote-too much information, cut it to the facts.

Also, how about you have a moratorium on H's family?

TOO MUCH DRAMA!

It seems you go into spin mode after contact with them.

((()))

hi labug thanks for stopping in - it seems to go in cycles - with all three of them,, i swear. and you're right - i spin off and flounder real badly. starting to see it really clearly now. as for 14 hrs - yeah - it seems that every time i get to a good place in my mind, they sense it and one of them makes sure that i land up being nuts again (big grin - that was meant to be a joke - i am fully responsible for my own reactions. but seriously i'm starting to see a bit of a pattern here!!)

the positive thing is that even though i really vented here on the board, i held it together much better than before - i could see more clearly what was happening and control my emotions much more - so quite a bit of improvement for me compared to before when i would really fall apart for days,

probably missed what i wrote in the last post - because it was way too long - that i've decided to back off - and just leave things - no emails,no calls nothing - he's really in full withdrawal this week - it is the week before finals so i know he's crazy busy, but it could be because of last weekend, either way it doesn't matter why.

i want to just gather myself and get to a good place - we leave next wednesday on this group camp trip with the kids and i real need to be as grounded and centered as possible so that i can be well around him.

what's having a moratorium? i really don't know.

hope you're well
zig

Don't see or talk to them.

OK, I looked up the official definition: a suspension of activity

and now for this because there are a lot of weird vibes around:

Mercury is playing around with Mars and Jupiter today, which causes conflicts in relationships and communications.... It should level out tomorrow when Mercury aligns with Venus. Saturday's full moon is the "super full moon" of the year (Wesak Moon) and its said the Buddah discovered enlightenment under this type of full moon... It only happens once a year and is said to be the most powerful for positive interactions.

Don't see or talk to them.

done! kind of - the contact has been way less this past month - mainly because they are struggling a lot with their own stuff, especially their conflicted feelings about buying the house for h.

i've also been focusing more on NOT talking about it so much all around, especially with mil.

your words hit the spot - labug - i wasn't ready before, but i can see how much more i am now. besides my horoscope said yesterday - listen to what someone else tells you - well, between you and old-timer - i am listening! and acting on it.

mil and i have been best friends for years - but i think we both realize that this situation is difficult. we've talked about it a lot in the past couple of months, how we want to stay close in spite of - but it's time for me to move away a bit.

now the last couple of days i've found myself sensing that i am going dark - not as a deliberate conscious decision as in ok, follow the rules, go dark, but more in that it is just starting to happen naturally - as if since i am ready for it it is going to happen anyway - more in my mind .

i'm seeing more clearly how i am not DB'ing well enough and where i slip up in the most subtle ways - but most of all i am seeing more clearly where i need to really work on myself and that is the most important thing of all.

hope you have as brilliant a day as i'm deliberately planning to have. off to photograph my shawls - the sun is beautiful after the thunderstorm during the night and i'm going to take advantage of that

zig

ps. i am SURE that we are all going to reach enlightenment tomorrow - no doubt about it!!!

as for the moon - h is a cancer - and they really get affected deeply - in fact, i'm pretty sure his withdrawal pattern is following the moon - it's literally every 3 weeks. he was always really moody - either really high or then withdrawn, and it was during the withdrawn periods that we always had crazy arguments and fights - wish i'd realized how cyclical it was - it always did confuse me why we would do really great for 2 or 3 weeks and then it would get nutty. he always blamed it on my PMS - but guess what - haven't had any "pas symptoms" for 8 months!! wonder what happened to them...

conversation came up yesterday about packing for the camping school trip leaving on wednesday.

h suggested taking the large tent

WTF?

i think he thinks we are all going to stay in the same tent?

s was there - we were all very tired after the May Festival at school. i just said we'll talk about it later.

any thoughts on how to deal with this scenario? i wasn't expecting it at all. i was assuming that i would be on my own in a little tent.

i mentioned that i had arranged with our friend to borrow a super warm sleeping bag - he immediately insisted we could take his dad's as we used to in the past.

how do other's handle trips together during these sitches - part of me so does not want to go -

thanks
zig

This has not come up for me but I would certainly take my own tent and sleeping bag.

thanks labug

yesterday was a bit strange - it seemed as if he spent the whole day coming toward and withdrawing - cycled in and out of it several times.

right when i was getting ready to leave the festival - i went to say bye - and he brought up stuff that is difficult for me to listen to. i let him go on for a minute or so, then said to myself - i don't need to get pulled into this, and just said calmly, well i have to get going i have stuff to do.

he and s brought stuff back to the house a couple of hours later and to pick up s's things as he went back to h's yesterday - and instead of taking off he sat down on the couch -he hasn't done that in a while and seemed to want to hang out a bit, in spite of constantly saying that they were trashed and needed to go get cleaned up and grocery shop (it was late!). then he brought up the tent thing

it seems as if, when i don't participate in the "crazy conversations" then he makes attempts to move towards me in some indirect way. last fall when we camped for a night at a party - he said what so we can't sleep in the same tent? that seems silly.

i'm in such a different place now - pulling away a bit myself, that no, we can't sleep in the same tent.

i think he wants to give the impression to the other families that all is good on the home front - two tents would obviously show that it isn't.
i'm ready to show that it isn't = i'm having a hard time carrying this story that we're not separated in certain specific aspects of his life.

don't want to push the issue either. and as for s - don't know what he's going to make of it - in either scenario - all three of us in the same tent, or two separate tents in front of all his friends - it upsets him terribly that they may find out. do i hold the secret for s or just be hard and not - i'm torn on this one.

mil told me yesterday that at first she thought s was fine about h's new house, but then the other day something happened which showed her really clearly that he's very upset about it and it's hit home for s that i'm not a part of that picture.

yes - i know - no contact - but she and fil were at the festival all day - and i had to hang out with them - we did talk through what happened earlier this week with fil - and resolved it. she is respecting completely my issues with the trip and not taking s with them, and asked if i would agree to her suggesting a separate trip with just the 3 of them and if she could tell s that. i agreed .

we also decided that from now on they would email both h and i at the same time for any plans they want to have with s, and h and i could discuss and decide together, and then they could let s know.

so we are in a good place now, and i think that i won't have too much problem for myself to detach a bit from them also

thanks
zig

practicing being more assertive in this sitch with h:

parts of this evening's conversation.

h: are we okay about this trip? (after i let him know that i'm taking my own tent)
me: actually, i'm a bit uncomfortable and apprehensive about it
h: can we talk about it?
me: i'm not sure what to say. i feel that when we are together, i have to make this enormous effort to keep the peace. but each time, you seem to take the opportunity to do or say something that is difficult for me, and then i have to make huge efforts to keep myself okay with being with the two of you

h: i have no idea what you are talking about

me: well, i'll give you a specific e.g.. at the last potluck we went to together, when i asked you why you gave our extra ingredients to the host, your reply was "we're not together any more, why should i give them to you"

h: there's no way i said that, why would i say something that awful?

me: well i guess we can't go any further in this discussion if we are stuck at a point where you say you didn't say it and i say that's what i heard

h: well that was not nice of me to say, are those the type of things you are referring to?

me: yes. i can manage for a few hours, but the thought of 3 days of that sort of thing makes me worried

h: you and i should learn to get along better. we already get along great
me: silent
h: we can do this - you and i are good friends - and we should keep being good friends
me; silent
h: i guess that could be pretty hurtful for you to hear?
me:silent
h: i suppose i should promise that i'll be on my best behavior then? - laughs a bit nervously
me: i join in and laugh and say lightly "yes, you'd better be".
h: okay - lets make this trip about just having fun and the three of us being together. i promise i'll behave.

other parts of the conversation started off not so good, but turned into a surprisingly good result. the issue was when he and s come over to pack our gear. his work schedule had changed unexpectedly and he wanted to do it tomorrow - which wasn't the best for me. i got a bit vague because i didn't want to decide on the spot, and then offered that s and i would take care of it. he got abrupt and pissy and started to get off the phone after offering again to get his dad's sleeping bag to which i had replied, i can take care of myself

i stopped him and asked what the matter was - his answer:you don't have to be so offensive.turned out he was upset that i wouldn't let him come and pack and not let him get the sleeping bag for me - that he wanted to do it together. i apologized and said that i didn't realize that was what he wanted - i had got the impression he was stressed about doing it and that's why i suggested s and i could do it

in the end i offered they could come first thing in the morning, and we'd pack together and it would be done. and the conversation ended on a good note.

i also got the opportunity to thank him for taking s shoe and clothes shopping. he was worried that i wouldn't be happy with s's choices (he was apologetic) and i got to say that i would be happy with whatever they had chosen- -a 180 for me because i used to be really particular about what s wore.

journaling

what i learned for myself from this phone conversation

1; it's okay for me to say when things are difficult and not just "take it"
2. i'm so defensive about everything to do with h, that i assume first that he doesn't want to be around me, and am always setting it up to be that (for e.g.. saying i could pack the stuff even when he was offering to do it together)
3. when he gets pissy and abrupt he's hurt about something and if i give him the opportunity, he can tell me what it's about
4.i can ask for us to both to behave in situations like this and expect it

i feel much more enthusiastic and positive about this trip. i really want to go for son - and for both of us to be there for him.

s is struggling though - the moment he switched over to h yesterday - it was difficult for me and him - for most of the day. h and i need to figure out how to help him to be okay with both of us present at the same time.

he was really hurtful to me during the morning at the festival - his class was performing with their violins and he had forgotten his at home. he came to me and told me accusingly that i had forgotten his violin . i replied that i didn't even know that he needed to bring it, and he insisted that he had told me. i asked if he absolutely needed it before i jumped in the car to go home and get it and he said yes. when i brought it back - 45 mins of driving - and told him it was on the stage - his reply: "Finally" and off he went to warm up and later perform.
after the performance when he came to us i reached out to hug him and he turned away. when h did the same he went and hugged him

i was proud of my reaction - in the past this type of thing has made me really emotional - but now i understood what was going on with him. when he left the house with h, he was struggling so much with switching over that remembering his violin was probably too much. then he felt so bad about it, that he couldn't come to me. i let it go, and many hours later he did approach me and was a bit warmer.

so i'm learning better each day how to deal with my boys in better more healthy ways.

i also saw another thing that i do that i didn't realize (it's defensiveness that makes me do it) - when i was going in to talk to the teacher about how bad he did need his violin, h caught up with me , ready to deal with it together - i immediately told him not to worry and that i would take care of it and kept walking. he went back andsat down and it was only later as i was driving back to school that it hit me what i had done - there was h trying to be involved TOGETHER in the situation and i blew him off and made him redundant.

in the moment, i was reacting to what s had said to me and how obnoxiously he had spoken to me and was feeling hurt and confused about why it had to be that way. i didn't want h to see that, so i wanted him to just go away.

i'm feeling pummeled by the two of them. it's like i just can't get it right with either, even though i understand that s is in a hard place right now and is probably a mess in his head with what is going on around him.

[censored] now i'm second guessing myself - remembering what old-timer said - am i making this more about me than about h? does the conversation feel successful because i thought i communicated directly and honestly ? or because he admitted that he would try to behave better

i have NO sense of self right now - just feel like this amorphous sponge that is helplessly absorbing everything that is going on

journaling

life is shifting a bit here . can't really figure out why in the space of less than 2 weeks, after so many many months, not one but 2 of h's close friends have reconnected with me.

not only reconnected but have had deep intense conversations with me about our sitch..

the best part - they are rejoicing in my changes with me and celebrating how i have fought and come through these accidents and how wonderful it is to have me back.

today another long conversation - and this one with one of the people who have met and hung out with ow the one time she visited here last oct.

wow did i say october. oh my gad it's MAY - and i'm still standing - and much much stronger than i was back then, i think!!

i got wonderfully complimented by friend today - she said she and her h were talking about me this morning - about how i was back to the vibrant, energetic exuberant happy person i used to be before those cars hit me.

GAL'ing for today

s didn't have school and 2 of his friends came over for the day. i really wanted to go to the bank and start a bank account for my business and in the past i would have let it go because of the kids.

instead i made a deal with them that if they came to the bank with me, i would take them out for ice cream - a rare treat! they were thrilled - i think the people in the bank thought we were aliens - i have NEVER seen 3 10 yr olds behave so well for so long.

we had a great time licking our cones and strolling in the sun - life just felt good - i love hanging out with s and his friends and really need to get back to doing that more again.

and opening the bank account and depositing a chunk of money from my sale - well , that speaks for itself...

another GAL - went and taught at s's class on friday - i used to do that all the time, but have found it really difficult during these months to step outside my sitch and be really involved in my world. it felt wonderful, and the kids, were delighted that i was back - i think i might volunteer weekly , like i used to do.

one thing i forgot that i did
i'm the one who asked h to move out, after he confessed the affair and then still travelled to see OW. when he got back i asked him to move out - as long as he was having the affair.

then, idiot me, during my begging pleading phase, tried to get him to move back in for sons's sake.

wow - how much did i bung up there...

was reading my tag line and saw that i had written "moved out". i guess i'm going to change it to 'i asked him to move out'

btw KD if you're reading - i do agree with MWD's stance about not exposing the affair. i remember that she said that it is just a shaming thing to do.and i agree - no good can possibly come of it except more hurt on all sides.

i used to struggle more with this earlier - because the people around me were challenging me a lot about why i had to carry the secret. but now i feel so distanced in a way from the A part of the sitch, that i don't even really have the urge to know what is going on.

maybe it's because of h's own actions -

OK zig, of course, read the sticky thread in the infidelity forum of course (the one posted by Virginia)...

Also, an interesting thread, this one is... has a bunch of different perspectives, including one which is specifically referenced that is DB oriented (link in first post of thread):

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2199316#Post2199316

If I remember (and I skimmed the first page), there was some good discussions and opinions in this thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2129640#Post2129640

If you set "display options" at the bottom of that forum to be show topics: from all dates, you will get loads of threads to read through.

It does appear that statistically, that a high percentage of M's that have infidelity do not survive.

It is truly my opinion only, that pressuring an A spouse does one thing, specifically... it speeds up the end result which is either a) perhaps more likely, the A spouse chooses the OP and the D happens, or b) the A spouse panics and chooses the M... but isn't ready yet and piecing is a tedious process filled with boundary bombs and backslides and snooping and further denials, lies, and trust concerns...

Like I said, the above is my opinion only... and is intended to persuade anyone that my opinion is right and pressuring the A spouse is a poor choice...

wow KD thanks for all that work you did , directing me to the right places. so nice of you

It does appear that statistically, that a high percentage of M's that have infidelity do not survive.

are you using the paragraph that follows as the reason the above happens? or are you saying in general that no matter which way the affair is handled most marriages do not survive?

i just realized that my eyeballs are bugging out of my head- i've been reading the threads for a couple of hours without a break. so time for sleep. i don't know if i'll be around much , as we are on this trip wed-sun and i have no idea if i can get online. probably a good break for me

thanks again, and hope you are well
zig

oh yeah, I did want to indicate and I appreciate the position of those who have dealt with infidelity...

Due to the emotional nature of infidelity (thus the risk of domestic violence, as a result of exposure), one of the things that I find most common is LBS who appear to get stuck in anger and resentment. Continued reference to both the A spouse (or often ex) or the OP in angry, derogatory, and otherwise "justifiable" opinions seems common and can even be disguised as humour...

The betrayal... infidelity... it hurts... and it hurts real bad... and even those who have not gone through it appear to be able to empathize and the emotional volatility appears to be contagious, even leading to BFFs acting out or publicly attempting to humiliate the A spouse or the OP for a long time after the incident, if not indefinitely...

Socially, A is bad... unacceptable... and IMHO a person who can truly forgive is a saint.

Forgiving does not mean forgetting... nor does it preclude R...

It is all about letting go the anger or ultimately working through the underlying fears that are the core meaning for any specific LBS... each LBS being somewhat unique in what those fears might be...

Because in the end, you can meet many wonderful people... and couples... and never know that their R or M began as an A... an A does not define someone... an A is just a socially unacceptable symptom...

Originally Posted By: zig

Originally Posted By: KD

It does appear that statistically, that a high percentage of M's that have infidelity do not survive.

are you using the paragraph that follows as the reason the above happens? or are you saying in general that no matter which way the affair is handled most marriages do not survive?

We often say on this board to the LBS, "slow down"... No decision needs to be made immediately...

I think the emotional nature of an A does create a certain anxiety which pushes the LBS into a fight or flight condition.

So yes, I suppose that I personally believe that a LBS, unable to deal with the anxiety, puts pressure on an A spouse too early and so the A spouse is still in the lust stage of the A and makes a choice to commit to the OP.

There is a reason why statistically, 50% of 1st Ms, end in D. And that percentage goes up with each M after the first. Given enough time, the A will "normalize" into a standard R and all that entails... the honeymoon eventually ends...

If the LBS focuses on themselves... enforces their "monogamy" boundaries in their actions... and works through the very difficult emotions of a betrayed spouse... it my opinion that it is possible... the more time goes by... that the A spouse will have second thoughts and choose the M...

IF... the betrayed spouse is willing to try again...

KD -thanks for all you wrote. it's stuff to think about. i believe i am capable of truly forgiving this with time, but right now, it is more important that i work on the issues within myself that i need to resolve so that i am in a good place.

i started reading the first thread you recommended- got through a few pages- o wow!

but on to better and more happier stuff - to do with GAL'ing

yesterday, i finally got around to making an email poster that was sent out to the students in the textile department at the uni where h works. the head of the art school had visited my little set up a few months ago and had offered that i could take interns from the textile dept. for the summer.

she had given me the impression that she would set it up, but sent a message last week through h saying i needed to get the message to the students. i thought it would be too late since its the last week of school, but went ahead and did it.

to my utter astonishment, i already have 2, within the first 24 hrs.

so things are moving forward, little by little, and that's the most important thing for me - that i just keep moving and not worrying about which direction i am going in or where i will land up

a little strange detail, and it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, especially since h is the one who started this process of getting me hooked up with the textile dept. over a year ago.

h is very insistent that he does NOT want anyone at the uni to know about our separation. one of these students though is a friend of his - and she's going to be here at the house several times a week. also the head of the art school, who has known us for years, also thinks we are together, and thus sending messages through h when she's too busy to email.

i've just let that go and respected h's wishes - but i wonder if it's going to inadvertently fall down around him in some way now in this new situation that is coming up

any advice on how to deal with it? i am not stressed out about it - almost a little amused, but it could put a lot of pressure on h - and that's not something i want to be a part of.

thanks
zig

I could have been an intern with you this summer, (course I would have had to do something with this paying job)...

Would be fun tho.

Hey Zig, glad the work is taking off! Enjoy! So what will you have the students doing for you?

That is an interesting position in regard to your H not wanting people at the UNI to know but the more involved you are the more likely it will happen on its own. Wish I had some advice for you on that one but I'm a little stumped.

My only similarity is that at church where I attend, people have noticed that my W doesn't come much with me and is not involved. When we first moved, she tried to plug in but quickly withdrew to focus her time on staying connect to her friends 500 miles away.

A few people have reached out to me to ask and I've given honest but very high level answers. I feel no need to lie but neither do I feel I need to give details out of respect for my W (respect I choose to give whether she does or not).

Also, in regard to friends coming to you. I've had this happen as well. A few close friends of my W have reached out to me in subtle ways and it seems to me that with time they are seeing the negative impact of my W's attitude and choices. It feels good to know others notice but for me I also have to be careful because it can easily feed the "Ah ha, I'm right!" mentality which DOES NOT HELP heal a marriage.

Have a good week!

thanks ces - it isn't feeding my aha, i'm right mentality at all, because i'm really not into the right or wrong of this sitch between me and h. i really understand why we got to where we are (i have to admit that i do feel strongly the right and wrong about the family members and how they are handling it, but i'm even beginning to come to better terms with that, letting go really means letting go of EVERYTHING)

it's more about - these people love us, and they can see that h is in trouble.

yesterday our friend said that she couldn't wait to have the real h back - that this person walking around was some shell of who he really is.

we talked a lot about her h's traumas when his own parents divorced and how he carries them to this day. i found out that he is one of the only people that h is hanging out with regularly - quite a lot, but she doesn't think they talk about the sitch much at all. (at that point i told her i was a bit concerned about h finding out that we were hanging together. she told me that they had already told h that they were never going to take sides with us and that what she talked with me stayed with me and what she did with h stayed between them. she and her h, also keep those boundaries really clear and don't talk about the stuff they do individually)

that's a good healthy friendship as far as i'm concerned. we talked briefly about OW, and she said that she didn't think it was serious at all, in fact the opposite.

wow, what a lot of pain is caused when the WAS uses an affair, and then you find out it's not even that serious.

about people finding out - well, I figure eventually it will come out in one way or the other. sadly, the effect will be that h feels more and more shamed as more people know, and if he is trying to compartmentalize his life, it is going to become more and more difficult for him to do that.

just an observation - i'm just going to get on with what i'm doing, and try not to fall in the ditch as much as i can.

i'm also not going to let this affect how i go about things with the interns

oh and to your question - about what the students will do? i am so looking forward to them doing the actual knitting on the machines for me - as well as being able to spend more time designing new fabrics while they knit the shawls and keep me stocked up!!

after the initial learning curve -as they have no experience, things should be sweet -

hope you have a great day today - do something crazy - like grab your wife, swirl her around until she's totally dizzy and then give her a big smacking kiss!! sometimes one has to just break the cycle of all this angst in some bizarre way, and work from right outside the box, or should i say cage?

zig

yes that would be fun - can't wait until i can actually PAY someone to work for me!! that would be a blast.

it's more like i'm an intern with you - on life busting!!

Quote:

h is very insistent that he does NOT want anyone at the uni to know about our separation. one of these students though is a friend of his - and she's going to be here at the house several times a week. also the head of the art school, who has known us for years, also thinks we are together, and thus sending messages through h when she's too busy to email.

i've just let that go and respected h's wishes - but i wonder if it's going to inadvertently fall down around him in some way now in this new situation that is coming up

any advice on how to deal with it? i am not stressed out about it - almost a little amused, but it could put a lot of pressure on h - and that's not something i want to be a part of.

This is just my opinion. You want to take the high road here b/c at the end of the day you need to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know that you did. Taking the high road does not mean perpetuating a lie or covering up the truth. It means do not take out an ad parading it around town.

I understand you are taking the high road by respecting H�s wishes. IMO it will all inadvertently fall down, and IMO he needs to experience that. I agree do not add to the pressure, but he needs to experience these consequences to his actions. Karma has a way of rearing its head, and the wayward spouses do this to themselves. They don�t need assistance, take the high road.

I understand you are taking the high road by respecting H�s wishes. IMO it will all inadvertently fall down, and IMO he needs to experience that. I agree do not add to the pressure, but he needs to experience these consequences to his actions. Karma has a way of rearing its head, and the wayward spouses do this to themselves. They don�t need assistance, take the high road

thanks just stunned - there is NO doubt in my mind that i am taking the high road on this one. i am not intending to break h's confidence in any way by volunteering any information, and definitely not parading it around town.

i can see SO clearly that i don't have to "assist" in any way, as you put it. like i said i am bemused by the way things are playing out to a degree.

tonight h was very very tense - in fact these last few days he seems to be under a HUGE amount of pressure and anxiety. i feel bad to see another human being, be under such a strain. i think this trip is going to be really hard on him - much harder than i realized. i can't help him - he HAS to help himself.

i just am hoping that in this state he doesn't do a bunch of silly things that are hard on s.

i am looking forward to going and having a great time with my lovely friends. i look forward to the possibility that h might let himself go just a little bit and join in

spent the evening GAL'ing - went out with our mutual friend and s for dinner and had a great time - laughed a lot - actually "hijacked" s from h this evening and took him with us - h refused to go, he looked as if he could cry. was a hard day for him - they opened the kiln and the work was really bad.

he's under a lot of pressure - wonder how this phase will pan out...

as for the interns - who knows, maybe they won't even notice..

thanks again , i am exactly where you are on this

zig

My H also has not told a lot of people that we are S ("it's no one's business"), still wears his wedding ring..

I have my story to tell if I want or need.

He has his.