Hi All,
This is the first time I've really ever posted to a message board, much less having to admit what is going on in my life.
Hopefully I'm doing this right...
Husband and I are in our early thirties. We were married when we were 21. Overall, I see now that husband has a history of shaking up his/our world every 6 months - some are more extreme than others, but generally I've found they always are around October and last until April/May. I think it's partially Seasonal Affect Disorder because where we live there is grey skies and rain the entire 6 months. Maybe...
History:
October-April 02 husband left to live with family in the SW sun. After 9/11, he couldn't 'handle' life and left me up here while he figured out what to do. He called me and wrote letters every day stating how much he missed me. We reunited in April at my doing (I said I'd move to where he was). We ended up back here in the NW grey/rain weather.
I admit, I am not very pleasant to be with at times - but especially at this point. I was upset that he could so easily leave and he could never explain why. I admit, I am bossy and needy where he is more free spirited. I do all the housework, the bills and he plays games and does his own activities.
Sometime in 2004 - he has one night stand. I don't find out about this until he confesses a couple years ago.
Sometime in 2006 - he kisses another woman. Don't find out about this until confession 2010.
Baby comes, new house.
Our schedules change for the worse. We are now on complete opposite schedules until child starts school (this fall). We never have alone time nor does he care to now.
2010, November: husband is acting moody, distant. Given that his M.O. is this in October - April, I tend to his moods, but don't think much of it. He confesses the 2004/2006 incidents and tells me that he's wanted to tell me when it happened. He also states he isn't sure if he wants to be married. I am devastated.
2011-2011: Things are rocky. He's never fully acknowledged he wants to be married and sporadically says 'I love you'. I see he's depressed and frustrated with his work and his life.
2012 Feb: I leave to go to visit his family in the SW, he doesn't want to go. Not unusual. He called me every day I was there. I could tell husband was going down his depression path and I'm trying to maintain relationships with his family for the sake of our child. His patterns are applying for lots of work in October, not hearing anything, and then starting to spiral in November.
Husband told me on the phone when I arrived back home that he didn't want to be married anymore, and he didn't come home that night. He hasn't been home at night since. He told me that he didn't miss me at all when I was gone (hello, he called every day) and that he only missed our child. He's moved out to a "friend's" house (I've been asked, and I 100% believe this is not a woman - as I've asked him repeatedly and told him if it was - it's over. He's denied it every time).
He's so checked out at this point that I don't know what to do.
The hard part is that my FIL is staying at my house for the next month (we traveled back to the state together and he has been here since the Feb bomb dropped). Our child's birthday is coming up later next month and more inlaws are expecting to come stay at my house (Even though their SON is not here!?!) They are not reasonable people and I can further damage relationships if I make a fuss. I feel like I'm being used here by my husband to act as a barrier to his parents and responsibilities. He has barely spoken to his father even though he's in the same state and usually has a good relationship with him. Husband just comes over each morning at 8:00 am and uses the TV, the internet, the shower, feeds our kid and then exchanges the kid with me at 2:00 pm. He goes to work until 11:00pm, then goes to his friends house. I could offer to leave the house at night (have him here from 11:00 pm to 2:00 pm) but I feel that will hurt my case. I feel like that he is taking advantage of his dad being here and the longer he spends away, the easier it gets for him to be gone. He doesn't need to act like an adult because daddy is here to make excuses for him. His father won't even have a sit down with him to talk about what is going on. It's too passive for my tastes.
In the meantime, kid has been promised a dog for 3 years, and now FIL and husband are angry with me because I said "Right now we are in limbo and I don't feel like introducing a dog will be the best thing." FIL was angry and said that I was punishing my child because of what husband is doing.
Honestly I've felt like I'm the 'mom' in this relationship. I've talked until I'm blue in the face (and he says I'm harping at him) about how he should come home. Our child asks him to come home and husband ignores him. Husband won't answer his phone at night (it goes to voice mail) and if I dare state my expectations, I can fully expect to hear from him the next day about how he's moving out and is filing for divorce. (I did find the divorce paperwork started but he hasn't bothered to fill in the rest and won't get a lawyer). He's taken away one paycheck so far, and was shocked when I presented him with a list of bills he'd have to pay on his own and his income. "But how am I supposed to live?" he asked... "It's expensive here" I replied.
He called tonight and it turned into me telling him that I want him to come home. He says "I know I heard you. I'll see you tomorrow." I don't know how to have a conversation with him that doesn't turn into me demanding he come home. I'm fully expecting to hear from him tomorrow about he wants to move out...
Help.. I'm feeling trapped and I don't know what to do. I really didn't want to get a divorce from him - but I'm feeling painted into a corner. Normally I'm the "take action, I'll do it" kinda gal - but I feel like right now I should do nothing? Do I continue these phone conversations (that is when he isn't calling his father's phone to talk to our son)? I feel like if I say nothing at all - he is all too easily capable of 'forgetting' what good things he had going on here. He's so self-absorbed right now that he could care less about what I'm doing, as long as it doesn't affect what he 'feels' like doing.
urgh... drama drama drama. Thank you all for reading. I've been stressing about this and I don't understand how someone can go from sooo loving at first to a person who I don't even recognize. I also don't know what I should be acting like. I feel like my world is crashing down.
(I recommend you copy and paste & print it out. Carry it in your pocket if you have to. I did.)
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
I understanding what you are going through. And I am so sorry you are here.
The best thing you can do right now is give him his space. He wants a divorce, let him feel how it will be being a single dad. At first, he will give you the impression he likes it, but deep down he won't. Keep the conversation about your daughter only. You end the conversation, not him. Be happy when he is around. Even if you are not, act it. Starting doing things for yourself. GAL. Start working on yourself for yourself.
If you get a chance, read my thread. My H and I are reconciling now and things are great. I am keeping my fingers cross.
Keep posting here. There are a lot of great people here with wonderful advice.
Thank you - I actually stumbled across the 37 rules and read them today. I also had to go out and buy another copy of DB because I sold my previous version when I though we stumbled out of the woods LAST time! Got my copy next to my bed to read every night (the nights are the worst part for me).
Today I was not invited to a basketball game with son and H. I caught myself getting miffed, and said 'Oh that sounds like fun, you two will have a great time!' and walked out of the room.
H didn't invite his father either (who is still living at our house). I notice he is ignoring his father so am relieved that it's just not me.
When H and son left for game, I also left the house. H called me and was suspicious and asked "what are you doing?", I nonchalantly replied "Oh I'm going to the bookstore, gonna grab a coffee, and do my thing!" He sounded shocked that I wasn't following him to annoy him.
I am resolving to not call him, not text him, and not email him. Since he still comes over for the bulk of the morning each day to watch kiddo, I am attempting to be here (a big part of our relationship failure was we never saw each other) but I am not going to follow him around the house like a puppy dog trying to have conversations about the relationship. I will try to remain cheerful in my interactions with him. Honestly, I feel like if I can write on here and read other people's stories, then I am doing better mentally. Otherwise this crap just build up until I explode at him.
He is withholding a couple of paychecks from me right now. I am not asking about those.
He dropped off son and I had him take care of the night-time rituals (he is always avoiding those since he wants to get on with his plans, but if he wants to be a single dad - then those responsibilities comes with it!). H then tried to leave without saying bye. He said he didn't want to fight. I said "Fight? Nah. Have a goodnight! Drive safe!" then I shut the door and locked it, turned off the outside light and turned off my phone (ha - there's a turn around!) all before he got into his truck.
I feel better today!
I'm still on moderation but....
I found a text conversation with a coworker. benign for now, but she triggered the last episode a couple years ago too. She is desperately attaching herself to married men. She's the type who friends everyone she ever met for a second on facebook. She reeks of desperation but given an opportunity of someone who listens and jokes around, vs someone who is on their case, I'd go with the fun person too. I brought it up to him and asked him if he felt that I don't give him enough attention.
HE is not cheating. I am relieved over that. It's hard to not talk to people although at some point we will have a chat over what people, activities are beneficial to our marriage. I'm letting this one slide even though my thoughts are more like call her and chew her out. He will have to stop on his own accord. I realize that it's up to him who he wants to communicate with, and I can't ban every single female from his life!
He FINALLY communicated to me and said that he was overwhelmed. He's got job that keeps him busier than he wants, he's desperately looking for work in a new field, we've got our S who is not in day care (we split our time with him while both juggling full time schedules), he's got a few side projects (all career related) going on, and he feels like he doesn't have the energy or want to put the effort into the marriage. I told him that I don't need him to make a big effort - just show up! It seems like he is taking his 'to-do' list and trying to eliminate the one that seems the easiest to get rid of, but doesn't take into account the ongoing problems eliminating the marriage will cause. I mentioned that I want him to tell me if he needs me to take kiddo for few hours, I'd be glad to. If I'm being too repetitive, to tell me! If I am doing something that makes him unhappy, then I need to know so I can rectify it if I can (Sometimes I hear myself sounding like my mom and I NEVER wanted that!)
However, I did say that the marriage is important. It's important enough for me to fight for it, and it's important for me, our S, and our family (meaning me, H and S) although I understand where he is coming from.
I got off the phone with him at this point. I sensed a bit of relief in his voice after telling me his frustrations and wanted to leave it on a good note. I want us to be better communicators, but I can't sit there and keep pounding my POV in his head as I've done for 2 months before.
In the meantime, I've adjusted my schedule to be home more to alleviate some stress. I also have made my GAL list of things that I want to do and published them where my friends/family can see them. I'm going to do activities that are just for me and kiddo can come too. That leaves me less stressed as well without having to worry about childcare.
Now onto my GALS.
Everything sounds good. If it was me and he called and asked what I was doing, I would just say running errands or something. I would not give him details. Leave some mystery.
Journaling a bit - I feel frustrated that H is still going to friends house every night. He is currently 'napping' in our bedroom, not making any effort to move out 100%. I am saying nothing. Just giving him space and not telling him what to do (a 180). I've avoided my house for most of the morning, but it's hard when I have work to do here on the weekend too. When he leaves each night, he expects me to follow him out and give him a hug/kiss. I am wanting change to happen quickly. Patience is a virtue that I am trying to possess. We will address it at some point, but I'm not putting pressure on him.
Do I follow him out and give him hug/kiss? If I'm trying to be more loving, I'm projecting here, but I really do think he appreciates me doing it.
I think my 180s are:
1) be more loving. I have to change that to 'understanding' for the time being as loving is just annoying him.
2) stop 'fixing' everything
3) get back into art and not so much into practical
4) start to get the house ready for 'sale'. I have to do most of this work on my own... but a big 180 would be to actually move.
5) Stop being bossy and telling him what to do.
6) Expressing my gratefulness for his tasks he does.
Well... I found out about OW. I had suspicions about the one I mentioned earlier, then last night in a enormous bout of anxiety, I drove over to where her apartment was. Lo and behold there is his truck.
I had her phone number, I blew it up texting and calling. He would never answer his. I don't recommend this. I saw him leave the apartment complex this morning (yes I staked it out early). Recall that earlier this week, I asked him straight up if he was seeing her at all or talking to her and he lied and lied to me saying 'no'. I caught him. I left a note on his truck too. He called me and admitted he slept with her one time 5 or 6 months ago. It didn't really hurt me as much because he has already cheated on me before and it didn't hurt as much as finding out about the first time. However, even though he was 'sleeping' on her couch and not having sex with her since then, I find the whole two months of him being there completely inappropriate and disgusting. I left her a voice mail asking her if she was going to the responsible thing and end it or if she was going to do it the hard way. I also mentioned to her that he was still coming home for some sexual acts.
He called me and was pissed off. So angry at me and told me that "I" was involving other people and creating drama. I remained calm and listened. I then said, "I can see you are very upset. I am not involving other people - I didn't step out." (probably not the best thing to say? He continued to threaten me and threaten that he wants a divorce and he hasn't been happy in the last year. But then he told me "You need to fill in the (swear F word) paperwork!" (Umm... no I'm not going to do it, I thought to myself) I said "I can tell you haven't been happy. I can also see that you have been living what I think is a double life of lying and cheating too, so if you haven't been happy and living the lifestyle you aim to get by divorcing, I can't help you. If you want to work with me to create a relationship where you can thrive and be happy, I can be apart of that. But I am standing up for the marriage because it's important to me. And it's important to our son. And deep down I think it's important to you, but I think you've buried it in unhappiness for now. that's ok, I get that. You do what you think is best for you"
After a few more threats from him, I ended the conversation. He then called me to tell me the OW was going to call me.
She was very apologetic and said that they had a 'slip up' 5-6 months ago. I interrupted her and told her "you didn't have a slip up. You took in a married man and had helped him break his vows. You also continue to let him stay at your house over the last two months instead of directing him home." I then laid into her about her self worth and what kind of man did she think she was going to get - if she only goes after married men who are unfaithful. I mentioned to her that this didn't bother me as much as she thinks, because she's like the 4th girl now. She was shocked by that revelation. Apparently she thought she was the only one. I asked her how she felt and she said she was disgusted.
Anyway, she told me that she will no longer talk to him in any way at work, nor text him, or even talk to him at work. Nor will he ever be allowed to step foot in her apartment again. (I told her that she needs to apply this rule to ALL married men and stop being desperate).
I had a 10 minute conversation with her. She then told me at the end of the conversation that if there was anything she could do for me, I have her number. I told her that I'm not going to bother. What she could have done was to tell him to go home and not get involved with married men.
I'm IN Last Resort mode right now and I've started going dark. He needs to figure out what kind of life he wants to live.
Anyway, H is upset/angry. He's at home in a empty house without me and S. I don't know if he will be there when I get back - but I can't be there right now. I refuse to be part of a relationship that doesn't value me. I will be nice to him, I will be supportive like a friend - but I won't be trashed and called names. I also won't have any other OW's feelings being put above mine but I'm not going to be 'fixing' him anymore.
IT's killing me to not go home and talk to him or to apologize. (For what?!) I feel like I should be the peace maker and make him feel better and that nothing has to change. So I'm hanging out all day at a coffee shop with kiddo trying to give him space now that OW has kicked him out.
I wish I didn't go over there. I don't think that confronting OW or him was good and it could have gone very badly with her. At this point, I've been cheated on him 4 times all in Oct/Nov time frames in the 15 years I've known him. I don't like to always be on the lookout for OW or to be told that I'm 'jealous' for no reason. All lies.
My goal was to keep the marriage together. I don't know what to do anymore at this point. He goes through these depressive periods and I can't do anything other than be supportive. This was not a good day.
Well go figure.. I received divorce papers today.
He doesn't want to be married, he's tired of 'this'. He can't explain anything. Back to square one except now I have a deadline.
The good news is that he most likely has to stay here now that OW is done with him.
I'm dealing with someone who is severely depressed. He doesn't want to see a counselor and he is always going through this each year. This is by far the worst year. He admitted that he had sex with the OW to feel better briefly - and of course it didn't work.
So now I'm on a limited time frame, and this [censored]. I don't know what I need to do. He's not going to snap out of this depression in time. And he's causing a lot of chaos. HE made some offhand comment like "well, I guess if divorce doesn't work, we could get remarried" or some joke about splitting custody like "Looks like I'll get S's legs and knees, you get shoulders and stomach". I don't find any of this funny and now that the court will be involved I really don't find it humorous.
I don't know if this is even worth it.. I like him 6 months of the year, and then 5-6 months he's going through some issue. I mean I can just see myself having to worry about every girl he is around wondering if they will turn into the OW. But I really don't want to split up my S's time. I feel awful.
LIO-
I'm so sorry.
And I'm sorry about the full moderation while you are under this heartbreak and stress.
Depression is a helluva thing. There's a chapter in Divorce Remedy dealing with a depressed spouse--it talks about dealing with the long haul. It's hard on everyone. I'm sorry you're having to deal with all this while you are parenting.
You seem well focused and like a good person, and that's a real tribute to you in this mess.
Hang in there, we are here to help.
There are folks here who have been around awhile, and they're here to give back. Some of them have been very successful in saving their marriages. Some of them have been very successful in learning relationship skills and rebuilding their own dignity and rebuilding their lives even though their spouses have not returned for whatever reason. We call them, colloquially, as 'the vets'. Seek out their advice, the names at the tip of my tongue: sandi2, 25yearsmlc, Mr. Bond, Starsky309, Kaffe Diem, desert rat, the moderators: JackThreeBeans, sgctxok, Jamesjohn....there are many others
LIO,
Your situation sounds similar to mine. My H also has the cycle of doing irrational things and is unhappy with himself and needs that immediate gratification from things.
He also texted a coworker a year ago...we tried to fix things...thought things were going really well...then he wanted to end it all this Feb...had a PA/EA with a different woman from work while we were separated...we are still currently separated and have separated all of our money, loans, bills, etc...no divorce papers yet...he says that is in my hands!
I wish I could give you more advice as to what to do. I am right now, after 2 months, just getting the hang of going dark. I have not contacted my H in a week and plan on doing it until he contacts me. I am going to let him initiate anything and if he truly wants the divorce,then he can go get the papers or I will reach my threshold and finally do it.
Just know that I am thinking about you and that you are not the only one going through these types of situations. I know that does not really help, but I will pray for you and your M.
Keep your head up and try to give your H his space. Accuray and 25yearsMLC have great advice to give, so look for their posts and advice.
Thank you all - I will definitely search out the vets too.
I went dark today. As he is coming over in the morning I still can engage in light conversation but I refuse to talk about divorce, relationships or anything else. My goal right now is that he postpone the divorce proceedings just so he can 'think' about it. Translation: I would like to buy some time so he can experience this and focus on what he wants. I am not going to be talking about the future with him. 37 rules in full effect.
I saw another text from him to OW last night. He left here to 'go sleep in in car at work'. Lies. He told her our divorce would be final next month (in what world does he live?) And the kicker, he signed with 'I love you'. She didn't reply. The OW texted me again today. I didn't reply back. Apparently he showed up at her house begging/demanding to be let in. She told him to go home to his family and called the police on him. I found him sleeping in my son's bed.
Today he's blaming me for his relationship ending. I hate to say it but I think that this confrontation from me was for the best. If he didn't get caught and called out and her rejecting him - he would keep doing this to us. This is happened almost 5 times now in the time we've been together. It's gotten easier for him to do. Now he has to feel rejection. Now he has to feel consequences.
I have for 14 years been so wrapped up in his thoughts, feelings, and moods that I almost lost myself. I am a strong woman who doesn't deserve to be cheated on. If I make a mistake or am called out about it, I will fix it. I am extremely loyal and trusting.
IF and a big fat IF we ever reconciled, it's going to be after counseling. I can't compromise anymore. I draw a line in the sand only to erase it and redraw it once he crosses it. I said after the last affair that there will be no more without me leaving. I'm not erasing that line. This is now almost a full five in affairs. I believe he lied to me about this one even still (saying they only ML 1 time. It's been 2 months he's been over there, he signs off with I love you. No... this is more than a one time thing). I also think that this started 2 years ago and that's why he confessed his affairs. He kissed her, broke it off after he got scared. I think he wanted me to break it off with him to make it easier and I surprised him by doing a 180 in my behavior. I am learning to trust my instincts because I was not wrong in them before.
Above all, what I learned was that I was right. Every single time he said I was overreacting or jealous - I had every right to be. He was carrying on affairs at those times. I questioned myself, whether I was seeing things... I wasn't. I trusted him and believed whatever he told me and let my heart override my head.
I make excuses for his behavior with his depression. Bottom line it comes down to is that he is an adult who still makes those choices. I completely understand depression, I've lived with it for a long time with him. I've read the chapter in the book and relate. It's definitely not for the weak-hearted. I feel for him and his pain. But even when I express my concern for his well-being and say "forget the relationship for a moment. Forget the marriage. I'm concerned about you. I notice that you are checked out of work. You aren't playing your video games. You aren't doing your hobbies anymore. And then you engage in destructive behaviors. I am concerned that you are going to keep going down hill and it's painful to watch." Really, he's going to have to crash in order to take action. It is painful to watch. It's hurtful to experience the actions he does and I've cared for him for so long to not care. This marriage may be a casualty of it right now. I still have hope for him - but I have to take care of myself and my S.
He did say 'well, if the divorce thing doesn't work out then we can always get married again.' Yeah.... After counseling and ONLY if I'm interested. Then I'll think about it. No more affairs means no more. I'm not interested in going back to being worried about where he is off to. I'm not interested in stressing myself out so I get sick. I love him BUT I love myself too.
LIO, you've got spunk. I know only a few women like you and it's always... interesting.
You should start to get some feedback in a bit. Partly due to the moderation needs when people first register and also partly due to folks being focused on current members, newbie threads can get lost.
Consider yourself found.
I admit I skimmed your first post but will have to go through your posts again. I have a pretty good feel for where you are currently at based on the last couple.
Yes, confronting the OP is not recommended. Thankfully it went fairly well for you and it "appears" that you have her co-operation... but... in past experience with others in your sitch (IRL and here)... you may find a smoke and mirror condition come into play as your H makes a case to OW or some new OW...
You have some great boundaries in place and going LRT is likely the right move ATM as is holding to the 37 rules...
While you are doing that, consider... your actions towards him appear punitive... and you have every right to be angry, upset, frustrated...
How long are you planning on keeping him in the dog house... because... well... let's just say that I have a feeling that you would otherwise be letting him back into his life within a relatively short period of time and things will be back to "normal" for you and him...
4 or 5 OWs over the last 15 years and you keep taking him back... and have a child with him... sounds like a pattern, there...
Any plans on breaking that habit?
Since your here on the DB forums now... now is the time to look at that pattern and how / why it keeps repeating itself ('cause that's what patterns do) and what you might do to change that.
Any thoughts?
NB: I see you do have plans to break the habit...
So let me ask you... you say the line has been drawn and you aren't going to erase the line... this time...
You erased the line before... why?
You say you want him to experience the consequences... did you not allow him to experience the consequences before? If so, did he learn? If not, why now?
You say you will let him back this time... IF he goes to MC and IF you are interested...
Well... has he ever filed before? Because he has now...
So... are you really sure who is in the driver's seat this time?
Because you may have had him crawl back to you previously... this time... could be for real...
So what's your plan in that case...? how confident are you that his pattern of returning will repeat this time...? And if his pattern repeats...
Well... what then?
Maybe 'lines' aren't the best description as I never verbalized the them as far as "You do this or this will happen." Which also means that there hasn't been any consequences for him. Just disappointment for me. Things like "I would like you to be home at night" or "Can we go out once a month" or "I feel like our schedules aren't working. Can we figure out something that does?" I guess they are requests. Each time he has ignored and denied my requests.
The affairs from years ago, I didn't know about until 2 years ago. It wasn't as if I took him back each time and said 'ok, we will work through this.' When I found out about them all at the same time via his confession 2 years ago, I did a complete 180 in my behavior - turning myself into a 'good wife'. It's not that I minded because I wanted to be a nice and kind wife, I just don't understand why he would have another affair (that I just found out above 3 days ago). The bottom line is that I trusted him because he said he would never do it again and he felt bad. So I believed him. Now looking back, it doesn't appear like he really put his heart into fixing whatever it was that caused him to do it. I don't know how to help him with that. I thought counseling would work through it, but he doesn't want to go atm. So if he doesn't want to work on it, what am I supposed to do? Keep going on this cycle?
I don't think I'm in the driver's seat at all. AND he's never crawled back or returned from anything. He's never had any consequences before. So if the divorce does happen - then okay. I don't want him crawling back. I want him to figure out what can make him happy in this relationship.
ok, that puts a more understandable spin on things...
He was always safe and comfortable before the "reveal"... so while you probably exploded... he'd already shown his "re-commitment" to you... in a way, manipulating (even unconsciously) the potential fallout and consequences...
You mentioned above that you needed to get a new copy of DB because you thought things were better and so got rid of the original one since you didn't think you'd need it...
Many of the vets who saved their Ms will tell you (and anyone in a healthy, long term M will say this)... the work never ends... we're never "out of the woods" until the M is done... however that might look...
That doesn't mean paranoid... it means keep working on the R... always striving to grow as a couple...
Also, you mention that your H didn't fix whatever caused him to have the As...
We say here that an A is a symptom, so I agree that you spoke of that... but generally speaking... the betrayed spouse is the cause...
Let me qualify that for you, though...
You indicate that you became the "good wife" because that is who you like to be, anyhow... how could you be the cause? But it works this way... you weren't meeting his needs... so he looked elsewhere...
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that perhaps the only need he was looking for was a new sexual position... he didn't know how to ask that of you, so he actually managed to find a new partner who provided him with a new sexual position... even though the only difference in the position, was the position of the bed...
Again, I'm going to be careful with my language because we promote DB here. But sometimes men are just looking for something different... a NEW challenge... and if he's not finding that in you, then as mentioned... he eventually gets "bored" and looks elsewhere...
That can't really be "changed" in a man... he can't "fix" that... or for all intents and purposes, he'd die inside...
I'm by no means trying to suggest your H is "right"... what he needed to fix is his ability to ask you for what he wanted. But if he asked, and you couldn't hear... because he did not know how to ask in a way that you would hear... or he did not feel heard... that is his fault... he should not be seeking elsewhere, or he should have chosen been gone the first time, IMHO...
So in DB parlance, that equates to communication and possibly 180s...
We do say here that the best we can do is to learn, grow, and become the best person we can be... to be a person that only a fool would leave... and if your H chooses to be that fool, then that is his loss...
What are some things that your H may have complained about, regarding you?
What are some things he's generally complemented you about?
What kind of GAL activities might you get involved in?
What type of 180s might you try?
As I mentioned above, perhaps he's just looking for "different"... If you can find something that's a little more different than "comfy house wife..." you know, perhaps seductress or dominatrix... it might interest him... that might be a 180 you could try...
Ok I'm thinking about some of these questions above Kaffe Diem. Very good - thank you, I get lost in my own head too much!
Yes, seductress would actually work better for me at this point. IF sex was an option. Right now he's heartbroken with OW not in the picture. It's not exactly the right opportunity for me atm. But... maybe in a few weeks. Hopefully. In the meantime, that doesn't mean I can't look the part until then.
I'm trying to think of things he's complemented me on. Honestly, it's been awhile. Generally he says I'm a good mom and I'm nice. He never compliments me really. He likes it when I work on my projects. He would say I did a good job on some task that I get excited about. A long time ago, he used to like that I would draw and he complimented some of my cartoons. He doesn't care about anything I do right now - so I have to do it for me.
Things he's complained about: me being jealous. Me doing his laundry (i've stopped). Me following him around the house (yes, rule #4).
Today I'm working on being in a good mood. I don't want to come across as overly excited or forced. Our conversations are awkward. He's just responding in one/two word sentences... if that.
I did talk to him briefly on the phone. I saw one of his captions indicating that yesterday was a bad day (as is today). I'm sure it's in relation to the OW. I said "I saw your post, I'm sorry that you are having a bad day today and yesterday. I know your heart is broken. [pause pause pause] It's rough and I really feel for you." It was quite and he responded quietly with 'thank you'. I said 'ok' and we hung up.
I am empathetic towards him. I can understand broken heart better than anyone else right now. But I'm not going to 'share' that feeling with him. He can't deal with my feelings yet and I'm not asking him to right now. And I don't want to bond over him being heartbroken over OW.
180's I'm doing:
I no longer have access to his email. I thanked him for that saying that I would use it read between the lines and make assumptions on his feelings when he is perfectly capable of expressing them. I told him it was less stressful for me as well and he should have his privacy.
I moved my stuff out of his office so he can have his own space.
I'm not talking and following him around. Well today I've been successful. Yesterday, no. It's hard but I'm talking to you all here.
I am making sure I wear makeup and am dressed in something other than PJs and sweat clothes when he sees me. I've lost about 10 pounds in 2 weeks.
I'm not blowing up his email and phone today. I haven't texted him at all. I really don't want to talk on the phone with him right now. It's too hard to hear his heartbreak and not want to say 'what about me!?' as I'm waiting to be served with paperwork.
I also tell him jokes from time to time. He seems to enjoy that. He's not open yet - but it's only been 2 days since confrontation with him and OW.
GAL activities
I'm going to go to church. I'll invite him this Sunday, but I'm going anyway.
I'm working on cleaning up the house. I want this to be less messy.
I'm taking up walking right now. I don't have the energy with much anything else to get back into my weight training. Maybe I will when I can eat.
Lesson I've learned that hopefully will help other DB'ers. When they say don't contact OW DO NOT! Do not confront spouse either. It's hard to say if he would have served me or not with divorce papers as he seemed to have them already filled in. It definitely makes our interaction very stilted now.
ok, great stuff LIO.
Remember, this is all baby step stuff that you want to go forward with. 15 years...? What's an extra year starting at a nice, stable position.
Yes, he will have to "get over" his loss. He's an idiot... you know it... but... he's an idiot you'd be ready to keep if he got his act together...
But... first, he's going to have to want to try again...
second... you're going to have to decide if you want him back, this time... and then be clear that there will be no more of this nonsense from him... as you appear to not be too appreciative of it...
again, not to think too far ahead here... but if it finally comes to a point that your M is back to good shape, you keep the changes going and the two of you are meeting the needs of each other and growing together in healthy ways...
so yes... giving him a taste of what he may be missing in the future if he does not choose this mission... is a great idea... no candy for him at this time... he needs to do his own work and show that he wants back... but he is more likely to want back if he knows what he'll be missing...
baby steps...
When my ex had a break from his affair partner he was a bit of a mess. I found his parner's phone number and they were afraid that I would get her husband involved. So they had a very short break.
Your H resembles my ex in that he doesn't seem to have anything that connects him to your family unit. You do the bills, take care of S and things around the house, what is left for him to do? Maybe it is time to let him pick up the slack. I have to boogie but will check in later.
kat
I don't see the point of holding on to this.
He told me that he had no regrets and no remorse over his affairs. He doesn't love me and doesn't care about anything. I know that he didn't use protection with her, so now I got to go down and get tested because he sure as hell won't.
I saw his post again today, it said that he messed up the most important thing in his life and he hopes there is enough for him to recognize. I talked to him on the phone (I really need to break this off with him) about this. I have made a commitment to stop checking his blog.
He's looking for apartments today. He's also trying to serve me with the paperwork.
Every time we talk it turns into him trying to get me to agree to sign the server paperwork. He's so checked out I wish he would have just moved. I hope he finds an apartment that he can go to this weekend actually.
Ok I've got to stop - and look at ME. I'm more concerned about his feelings as if I don't have any. All the stuff he did to me, I don't process - I remove myself from it like I was watching a TV show or something. I am not following the rules that I should be. I'm emotionally and physically exhausted right now. It's very difficult raising a S with no day care, working FT and dealing with this. I'm overwhelmed in that he doesn't want to take anything from the house and is basically leaving me everything to deal with.
Father-in-law will be here for another month. Then the inlaws come. Wondering why no one can stay with him in his new apartment why they have to stay here.
My commitments this week:
1) don't check the blog
2) removed phone number from phone
3) Leave the house when he is here. I don't see the point of doing anything for him now.
So yes, I think he is the idiot. The idiot walking away.
Have your in-laws stay with him. they are his family, let him deal with them. Perhaps a nice hotel near him would work?
As hard as it is you need to stop focusing on him. Stop reading what he posts, he is delusional and you already know you can't believe what he says. Put the spot light on yourself. I think you need to find some time to just relax, can your father in law watch your son since he is living there? Take some well deserved you time. What kinds of things do you like to do? Go get a new haircut or a massage, go to a coffee house and read or listen to a band. Find things that will calm you and give your spirit a boost at the same time.
Of course your H should watch your son too. He can do that at his place once he moves out. Everything that you are doing from this moment on is about making the best choices for you and your son. I found this really handy...treat your H like the mailman. Someone you can have a casual chat with but that is it, unless of course it concerns your child.
Do NOT get into relationship talks with him or try to make him see reason. Don't answer the phone everytime he calls as long as you have voice mail or an answering machine(this is only in case the call has something to do with your child).
Your H is going to be really down about his affair ending and is going to do all those unattractive behaviors we do/did in order to try and win her back. I hope he comes to his senses but it can take a while, just like it does for us.
hugs, kat
LIO,
I had the same reaction from my H about his affair. He shows no remorse and is so 'checked out.' He has not even tried since I've found out everything to work on things with us. He 'says' he's replayed our whole relationship (8 years) in his head and doesn't know where it went wrong, but that he just knows his feelings aren't there for me anymore.
He has since rented an apartment and changed his address. We also have separated all of our things: bank accounts, bills, etc.
I don't really think it makes it easier that he has his apt...just more of a reminder in a way that this is not going exactly how I want!
However, my best advice is to GAL. I've been out more with friends and family and have even made new friends. It's hard to do and it's not what I want, but it's getting me through the hard times!
You need to take control of the one thing you can...yourself.
kat
I completely agree Kat and am learning that more and more every day!!
me, too. i was just sitting around the house, feeling sorry for myself and OBSESSING about him and what he was thinking and what he would do...
last weekend i went to a jazz festival BY MYSELF! yeah, it felt a little different and yeah, i saw lots of couples but it also was very nice; sitting under the oak trees, listening to the music, eating, looking at the artists' stalls...i even bought a hat!
tomorrow, i'm taking my two grandchildren to an art festival! i felt so much better after the jazz festival that i know i will feel better going to this one, too! it makes me feel a part of humanity again; back in with PEOPLE! it's made me so much happier and that makes it so much EASIER to not call him or email him. he actually texted me today and i waited three hours to answer him. he called my cell and i didn't call back! it's because i can see a life without him if need be and i know i can make my own happpines!
When I first went to the movies alone, I learned to not go to early. That way I wouldn't focus on all of the couples around me.
A few months after the divorce, I saw a wedding party. I so had to fight myself from running over to the bide and say "Don't do it! He is going to cheat on you, lie to you and break your heart!". Thankfully, that feeling is pretty much gone! I know there are good guys out there, I have faith in that.
kat
Thank you Kat, Hopingandpraying and SS - It is so helpful to know that I am NOT the only one here.
I was on the phone with girlfriend and had a 'tail' with me. I was folding laundry and talking and had an audience on the stairs. Then walked into the closet, where someone had to immediately go take a bath right next the room. I'm ignoring H. So far no talks of signing serving paperwork. I did ask him about his apartment hunting though.
Tonight I'm GALing. Not sure what I'm off to - but just leaving the house for awhile. Maybe go see The Hunger Games.
This is a new place for me to visit. I am over on surviving. Please feel free to post over there if you need me. This hasn't become a habit for me to check here but I am working on it.
I know how crazy you can feel while this is happening. You guys aren't alone.
kat
Today I took S out to walk grandma's dogs - and we visited a park. It made me a bit sad to watch him and see a baseball game going on and know that H is missing out on this. Of course, that's his choice.
I don't know if I should even talk to H. He is still angry - every single time we talk, he throws in 'I need you to sign the [serving] papers'. Do I just not talk?
His LL is words of affirmation, and touch. I definitely can't do the touch he hates it. The words of affirmation though - do I attempt?
My FIL is telling me to ignore him entirely. Like if I walk in a room to not initiate contact. Do I try?
One more - I don't know why I don't feel angry at him for this last affair. Does that mean there is something wrong with me? I am saddened by it. I feel like my dreams are blowing up in front of me. Although I realized that I can still work on my goals, and I can still have part of the dream - maybe just not with him in it.
He needs some time to work through this. I am a total quality time person, and we haven't had that in 5 years. I need it but I don't think it's the right time for it.
It is hard to see what you know your H will be missing if he continues on this path. I choose to see how blessed I am that my kids and I are close and that they choose to come to me and work out their stuff. His loss.
Don't focus on him. Don't feel bad for him. Keep that light on you. Leave him alone like your FIL said. Now you work on you. Your H has a ton of work to do and that is up to him if he does it.
kat
I am starting to have increased anxiety. I've always had it - especially when I ask him to do something and I 'hope' he will and end up getting disappointed.
But now I'm at the point where going to work is difficult. I feel like I'm slipping in every direction of life.
Might be time to see your Dr. I was on anti depressants for a couple of months, also saw a counselor and thankfully had this site. Get to feeling better.
kat
Yeah I agree. The last 2 rounds of this with him have led me to a counselor before - think it's time to revisit.
My life with him has definitely been a roller coaster ride. I know he's got a family history of bipolar, but regardless if he wants to deal with it (in a healthy way instead of through these bouts of trying to find 'happiness' through EA's, PA's and what would be a bit of manic behavior).
Either way, I guess I need to focus on myself.
It's easier for me to get out what I want to say in writing to him than to talk to him (guess I don't need to 'see' the rejection).
I wrote to him that if he wanted to move out as he wants, then I will not stop him. He can use his next two paychecks to get the deposit ready for his apartment. I know that as he gets over the summer, he will miss out on all the summer activities we used to do (we do really well in the summer together because we get to spend time outside).
Either way - bipolar or dealing with spouse who wants a divorce, I have to focus on creating my own calming environment. And go to a counselor myself now. This too shall pass. It always does.
I was out walking this morning and had a breakthrough. Prior to affairs, I used to be less stressed. Not that the affairs caused my stress, I let it build up WMD build up myself by putting so much pressure on being a perfectionist, and taking jobs that were very demanding of my time and energy, then the affairs started. The distancing started. Of course, why would he want to be around someone always stressed out and always "on"?
He made a comment that he can't relax at home recently. Of course I see why now.
Can you see that lessening the stress would be good for you as well? Personally, I live in such a constant state that whenever I slow down to go on vacation I get sick! How crazy is that? I am so used to it but it takes a toll, I am constantly tired. Sound familiar?
Find things to do that relax you even if it is just soaking in a warm bath every night. Peace will start to come.
kat
Yes, I actually had a good morning - kept it very low key, and had good interactions with S as well.
Unfortunately my boss called and wanted to know what is going on (I haven't been functioning well).
Has anyone ever had to talk about the personal issues at work with their boss?
I avoided it for 2 months because I tried to not let it get to me - but my work since uncovering the PA has been down.
On the good side, I think we are going to work out some sort of reduced hours... And I don't have to go to some of the stressful meetings I did before.
But I guess it's too late to not be thought of as not having drama.
I was considering switching jobs to something less stressful, and with everyone always knowing my business, it seems I may have to do that this year anyhow.
Since I work in a 2 person office, I did let my boss know. So lucky he kept me on as I was a mess for about 7 months. After the divorce, I had sleep issues for at least two years. You aren't alone, a lot of us have been where you are now.
Kat
Kat thank you for that. I feel like I'm drama hour and I don't want to be. I'm so type-A that they expect me to be a certain way at work and get lots done, but I need to back off to normal levels again.
Big post, as I've been just processing some things...
I would love any feedback/suggestions and thank you all for being here!
Sunday: He looked at apartments.
Sunday night, the only thing he would say to me (repeatedly) was a hateful tone of: "Just sign the [server] paperwork so we can get this over with." I ignored it mostly, and tried to walk away. My only interaction with him on Sunday was him telling me that about 5 times. Finally I snapped and said "Fine! Give me the paperwork now - go print it off right now so I can sign it for you today because I sure as hell don't need this and I don't need to be cheated on anymore, I don't deserve that." From that second on, he was nicer in his tone and made us all dinner.
I haven't seen the serving paperwork (he never gave it to me) nor has he mentioned it, or divorce. He hasn't said anything since... Also his blog has not been updated (so I hear) with these 'break up' posts. All activity has stopped on it since the day I told him I wasn't going to look at it anymore.
Monday: Told him I don't want him to resent me, and so if that meant he was moving then that's okay. He didn't know how much his deposit for apartment would be or when he would move.
Tuesday:
I did sent him an email on Tuesday after I had a major breakthrough because I saw in my S how much I created an environment of stress and kept him in perpetual stress-mode. and the rest of the email said:
"
I walked today and thought about the girl I was and why I'm not. And I saw Something... so clear and it made my vision open up. i'm working on improving 'me', and hopefully you will (or have) see the little changes. If you haven't, it's way too early to believe - but I promise you - they are coming and will be noticeable very soon and i'm looking forward to realizing that vision i had as it will make me proud of me.
you know that often i get stressed. about work, about home. I fail to see the little things you do to alleviate that. Whether it be the dishes done, the floors vacuumed or even breakfast made.
I get too wrapped up in my own self which is selfish and uncaring to you.
and I am sorry about keeping you in perpetual stress and hurting you. it [censored]. I just saw I did that with [S] too - and it's done. no more. he's a kid who needs to be a kid. you are a man who came into this life with your own journey. hopefully ours will be in step but neither you and i have power over that.
You might feel like i don't listen - and i haven't. I heard two things from you about you calling it my [censored] stressful job and how you can't relax at home. I now completely understand why you say that. I led you to that conclusion with my words/actions. it's not right and i've taken some action because you are right (don't worry i still have a job
).
I know you have every right to doubt me, to 'not care' to say 'f [censor] it, too little too late'. I understand.
I hope you will see soon that these are NOT small time fixes to be just good enough. It's not. I don't like the person i became either and i refuse to be that person anymore. ever. Regardless of whatever happens. The girl who is fun, who is great and wonderful is still here. I just refound her and what makes her me, and hopefully you will too.
Keep your paychecks. (like i had a choice right?
). If you feel like you are still getting the raw end of the deal after whatever timeframe you feel, then you've got some money. If you see that life is good maybe you want to use it buy your replacement car, a trip, [your hobby/business], or whatever, at least it will go to something that you will love and need immediately. Or not - it really is up to you.
i don't expect a response - but know i appreciate you, and you reading this. thank you. i don't feel like we need to 'talk' about it unless you bring it up. Actions are louder than words and irregardless of how life turns out, i will be that person that i saw in that vision. and really, that's not a bad thing."
and i never brought this email up again.
today:
When I go up to touch him (when he's sleeping on the couch) he's stopped pulling back and telling no. He also allowed me to ML with him this morning and lay next to him. So it seems like that is a step.
I've avoided saying "I love you" and even kissing him because I thought that might be too much. After he took a shower, he went outside to his vehicle and brought in boxes and put them in his office. I saw them and said "Wow, you guys must go through a lot of paper at your work!" and left it that. So he knows I saw them but I didn't flip out on him like I normally would have.
Did he bring in the boxes because he felt vulnerable? He will never say.
I'm trying to not call him at work to say 'Hi' but I feel like it's going against what I should do. Maybe that's normal. Yesterday the only thing I emailed him about something I was looking at getting - but I knew I wasn't going to get a response.
Today I'm not going to email at all.
One positive thing that I have noticed in the last two days is that I'm not allowing his emotions to run mine. If he ignores something, I just say to myself 'eh, his moodiness, his problem' and go on about my stuff.
I've scheduled a meeting with a counselor, just so I can get my anxiety meds again.
I also have a meeting with my boss coming up next week in which I will be proposing cutting my hours by a few (it will help my anxiety level - I've asked for this for years because of it). My boss expects that I should be divorcing my H, but I'm not at that point. He's very ABC matter of fact, and I feel like this R deserves more than that. Because after all, I have to live it - not him.
So on to the rest of the day! Onward and upward!
Well one step forward two steps back maybe??
I did call yesterday. Conversation was light, airy. I hung up when it sounded like he was done. (180 for me - I would normally keep talking and talking and talking especially about R until he grew frustrated.)
He came home last night, I kept the lights low, candles going (it just looks nice and smells good and makes me relaxed) and just said 'oh hey!' and kept on doing my activity. We played with the dog, talked about dog and kid. No R talk. He even asked me questions. Remember last week he filed 'D' and all week he was one word answers so this is a big change. (usually I would be in bed this late, OR in this case I would have been anxiously pacing by the door.
I went down and tried to snuggle up with him = no go. Went back upstairs immediately without a word. Meh. Won't try that for awhile.
This morning I gave him a compliment about his shirt which was well received and then as he left for work, I gave him a side hug which he groaned at. Maybe no physical contact would be good? In the past I didn't initiate physical contact and then he would shell up and then act as if I didn't want him. (Basically boosting his ego when I initiate).
One change that I've been working on is staying at home when he is here. I know he can't 'miss' me - but we spent 5 years not connecting with alternating schedules. I want to do activities that we connect with that I also enjoy (even if he doesn't want to do it right now) that are around the home. For example, I've been spending time learning a drawing program on his computer because it will help me AND he enjoys doing it. From time to time I will request his help which he always 'protests' but he likes to help with it. Enter my compliments to him for how easy he makes it look (which is very true).
I don't want him to think that I don't care about him. I do, despite everything that's gone down. I guess I've been framing it lately to myself that IF he actually moves out then I will not initiate anything but until then I'm trying these 180's and trying to be a friend first. But as he just called, I didn't answer. I can't be *too* available.
I feel all over the board with this - I'm sorry. I'm just trying to see what works and what doesn't - while also keeping in mind that I'm not making him my activity to focus on.
Other goals:
I'm working on getting my exercise into 30 minutes a day.
I have been trying to 'stop light' bad thoughts.
Been reading the other forums here.
I'm getting more comfortable with staying at home (a BIG change for me) and doing low-key activities. Right now I'm training a puppy and that's been a good distraction. I also am spending more time with S listening to him. I've been reading more and taking baths while watching old movies. As I've only worked about 30 hours this week, I'm feeling like I have more time to myself.
I'm working on my proposal to my supervisor re: my job. I've been happier with just the *thought* of reducing my hours.
And a big one: other than this board, I'm not talking about this anymore because I get caught up in the analyzing too much. Our families already know what he was doing because FIL has been living here and he's talked to my parents... I know that H is embarrassed which is why we haven't had a lot of talk about it yet (other than that day I went off on him about he could have endangered not only HIS health, but mine). It seems like he is waiting for me to revert back into the old me - and I don't want to.
Posting here so I don't go crazy and call H.
Maybe I'm hormonal but I am upset. H is busy all weekend with this big event taking him out of the house so I barely see him.
Last night he slept on the couch.... Again. (at least he's here, right?).
I'm so lonely and miss him sleeping next to me.
Usually before I go to bed, I say: the bed is big up there, lots of room for you and me if you are interested. Goodnight!
Last night when he asked why I was touching his back while he was going sleep, I said "because I miss you. you are important to me and I need you."
He feel asleep and I went upstairs.
(remember that we have alternating schedules and I wasn't as forward with my feelings about him in a loving, touchy way before).
So I woke up alone and he was rushing out and I woke up with the same anxious feelings of two Tuesdays ago.
Too needy, too much?
And judging by my spelling errors, maybe 6 hours of sleep is not helping my emotions or my spelling!
Plans today: running with girlfriend in less than one hour
Go to ikea after with sissie.
Tear up my backyard to start landscape project
Hang with s and puppy
I feel like I'm being held captive sometimes. I was wanting to move to az for the weather this year (I can't do another grey, depressing, rainy winter, spring here), but with all this unsureness, I feel trapped.
I am thinking maybe it was a bit much too soon. You have let him know that you miss him now step back. Continue working on you and being present more often.
We tend to see something positive and then try to build on that and make it all better NOW! It doesn't work that way though. Keep seeing the positives in yourself. Your s will reflect those back to you.
Kat
Yes thank you Kat! I'm laying off tonight, no real chit chat tonight planned. I'm just going to keep up my nightly activities to keep working on my stress and relaxing.
I guess I was more bummed when my sister said that "You're just delaying the inevitable (D) and he needs to have consequences this time. You just keep forgiving him and he just goes on like nothing matters."
So I ask to those who have been here before (and I will look in the older posts as well) but...
At some point does your spouse actually acknowledge the wrong doing (cheating?) and apologize? Or does it just get swept under the rug?
How do you not have the same behavior happen again?
Does the spouse ever commit again? Or am I doomed to another year of indecisiveness?
Any suggestions on books I can read about communication? I'm about to embark on the self-help section reading I think.
Thank you.
My ex had cheated on me when we first got married. I was a flight attendant and had an erratic schedule. It went on for two years. I didn't know how to deal with it then. I basically shut down for about a month and didn't talk to him. He told me that he was sorry and that he would never hurt me again.
Fast forward and he cheated me on the second time that I know of. I am guessing in hindsight that he was probably always cheating on me. This time I decided to fight for my family. I did everything wrong and didn't find this thread until after he had already filed.
He did say he was sorry for hurting me but I know he wasn't sorry for what he did. Even after all of this time and hurt on my part and the kids, he doesn't think he did anything wrong. He is so deep into his mid life crisis I don't know when the reality of the mess he has made will hit him. It doesn't matter to me except for the sake of my kids. I feel for them.
kat
Kat: "He did say he was sorry for hurting me but I know he wasn't sorry for what he did"
This kinda sums it up.
Don't hold your breath waiting for a WAS or an MLC'er to admit their wrongdoing.
People make choices that make perfect sense to THEM. It may not make any sense to the rest of the world, but it does make sense to THEM - even serial cheaters.
It is a step in the right direction if they're sorry they hurt you - if the sentiment is genuine. It's better than them being the "honey badger" (just doesn't give a sh!t).
DB'ing is about trying to move beyond such expectations of remorse and contrition, almost like pretending you've just met and their history of intimacy with all the other people they've been with before meeting you, really doesn't matter - I said almost (I understand the fantasy) but it's an analogy.
Now infidelity whether emotional or physical is of course a betrayal of trust that is understandably a deal breaker for anyone who takes vows and promises seriously. That kind of dynamic cannot be allowed to continue, so it's up to LBS'ers to determine whether or not their WAS is cabable of meeting those expectations.
Ultimately, has any new dynamic reached a point where you can trust them to choose between not wanting to hurt you over that other choice that made sense before? That demonstrates love of other over oneself. Unfortunately, there are some people you just cannot trust, and then there are some that cheating is just out of character, and for some reason it happened.
All this means is that we cannot continue to focus our thoughts and musings on our WA's. I catch myself doing it all the time, but the goal of DB is to first save ourselves and divert our gaze from our messed up spouses. In a limted sense, we have to become the "honey badger"!
hugs, pic
I've been reviewing my budget, and as I don't have a paycheck coming from him, or any child support (he is living in the house still) I'm unsure of how to proceed with asking him for money or if I should. Yes I can make things work without him... but it just means making minimum payments. I do need to ask about the child support though because I do think he needs to help pay.
I guess since I've always been paying the bills, I would like him to have some responsibilities and not live like a teenager. But will throw any work I do off balance?
It's only been almost 2 weeks since the D filed by H and his EA/PA ended (by her), no serving, and it doesn't look like I will be served any time in the near future. I don't know if he is still planning on moving out - or if he is just waiting to see how I react.
Should I wait and just bring up the CS?
Just this past week you did say to him something along the lines that he could keep his money so he could save to move out and while you have needed money all along you are now wanting to contradict yourself.
Is there an on line calculator from your state that would help you calculate child support? Maybe even check with a lawyer to get an idea. Then you might need to bring it up saying that while you do understand the need to save to move out, you have done some calculations and need some help. You have looked at CS in your state and it would be such and such. Could we work together to make sure everything is getting covered?
It might be a rough conversation. Just a heads up.
kat
Yes, and I did mention how I wanted him to keep his money but I still needed money for S. He knows the calculation too.
It came up this morning actually.
I've been getting some odd unlisted text messages on my phone and I asked him if he knew who would do that (He did give OW my phone #). He said that he didn't hang around people who were drama. I mentioned, "well, you did give my phone number out, would anyone do anything with it?" He said "She doesn't do drama, that's why she left. and I'm moving out mid-May (ok so I have a date now of when I'm going dark), and you need to sign the papers." Defense mechanism.
Anyway, I'm heart broken again. I keep getting my hopes wrapped up in him. For almost 2 weeks there was no mention of the papers, now there is.
Later on, I said "You said she doesn't do drama - well, don't you think being involved with a married man is drama and texting me about you and what you are doing is drama?" He said "you are right."
Maybe i just need to repeat that HE is NOT going to change he is not going to change. I want him to be a faithful husband who cares about his family, and me, and he's just not. This moving out might be the best thing.
I keep hoping that it will bring him to his senses - that we can go back to how we were a year ago.... before her, before he wrapped himself up in his work. It's just not going to happen.
Admittedly I feel hopeless.
I take that back. I don't feel hopeless now.
I felt anxious and couldn't sleep again last night.
I just wrote a 'hear me roar' that made me feel good, I saved it and it said exactly what I've wanted to say for years where I finally I laid down some boundaries. This cycle is ending. He acknowledged he got it (and NOW here is where I SHUT UP!) and he also said he noticed that I was improving over the last week.
I had been nice and even still in my 'hear me roar' I WAS nice - just firm.
I am worth more than being cheated on, I am worth a man who wants to spend quality family time with us, I am worth having someone who can communicate with me and not wait until I get emotional to acknowledge me. I don't need a man who tries to fill a vacant hole with women when he has a family waiting for him at home only for him to say he has been miserable for 2 years (while trying to chase OW) and still miserable even with OW only to have her completely turn on him.
So where that leaves me and H, I don't know. He can deal with it. He can ignore me. Either way, I will continue to be nice, cordial and to the point. I will dress better, and my exercise is going well (i'm down another 10 lbs!). I am also getting more confident in ME and being alone, and doing my activities and not being cocky (I was never cocky but thought I'd clarify!)
OH! And my hours were successfully reduced to a comfortable 32 hours a week instead of 40-50! so I feel good about that. My boss is understanding and I said that for 5 years it's been hard (S is 5) and I can't manage it all without getting paralyzed. I want to do great work, and he said I am very knowledgeable and do great work and he will get it taken care of so he can keep me! I wouldn't have quit, but I needed a break)
Regarding H: I would be willing to work on a R and I really do want to be married to him, but if he is going to keep chasing empty rabbit holes and threaten me with emotional abandonment. He can figure it out. Maybe a problem was I didn't give him clear boundaries and expectations that he didn't have to worry about consequences. He NOW knows my 5 lines (which I don't think are that hard):
--No more cheating and no emotional affairs
--no female friends so find friendships with quality men
--openly communicate with me. I WILL not argue, yell, or throw a tantrum.
--be fun again, have quality family time
--stop threatening me with emotional abandonment.
The consequences are no more 'oh well I'll help you out of this mess'. IF that means he gets fired, then he needs to find another job as I'm not supporting him anymore. If he's miserable at his current job because he and OW aren't talking and she saw him as he is, oh well... deal with it. If that means he can't get his new vehicle because he moves instead of saving, oh well. I will just respond with "oh yes, that does sound like a tough predicament to be in" and offer no solution to 'fix it'. I WILL be fine.
I'm reading "People Skills" by Robert Bolton, I think I'll take a break and read "Boundaries".
I just changed my phone number. the OW had it, and I need a new start. H doesn't have it as he sees me every day for now until he moves and I don't need to talk to him on this phone anyway. He can call the home. I'm not interested in being pathetic to him. I'm interested in finding this new confident me. I'm not going to keep appeasing him and he not having boundaries enforced. No more.
I'm memorizing the 37 rules, but I'm going to print them out now and put them in my wallet as suggested.
Thanks for reading and commenting all! You are my sanity!
Posting again today:
Labug has this acryonym that I saw and loved it and need it here as a reminder. ( WAIT-Why Am I Talking?) I wish I had read it earlier today!
14 days until he gets his apartment (and he's dead set on it). I'm wasn't planning on changing the locks of the house - but.... If he just lets himself in and makes himself at home here, and then has his place at night, why would he want to come home? Am I worried too much about that now?
Back to the book for reading again tonight because I'm slipping and need reassurance. I'm on LRT
The Bad: I am chasing. I go from 1 day good to 2 days bad.
Goal: It will be a good day when I don't call or don't email him and just smile and say Hi when he comes home late at night before I busy myself. I will engage in light conversation about kid and dog then leave.
The good: (?) Another morning of him letting me hold him on the couch without pushing me off. H refused to go upstairs but didn't throw a fuss when I laid down beside him on couch. ML again (TMI?!)but he initially acted like it was all because of what I wanted, and of course the D talk and moving out talk start. Hand in hand... He did (re)include me by making me breakfast this morning too (along with S) (good!)
Here's where I am confused. 2 weeks ago he freaked out if I touched him, or try to lay down with him. We didn't ML for 2 months while he was with OW. So if he is 'letting me' (even if he is acting like it's what I wanted) lie on the couch with him, is that working? I won't try it again for a few more days.
The Bad (again):
I didn't let the D and the moving out talk go over (I don't know how to react, or if I should stay quiet) and I slipped up and got frustrated and let it be seen, and eventually heard (I called him when he was driving to work). I'm just going on and on, and H told me that 'we just grew apart' and I said "I see you have been checked out for 3 months, I'm not going to talk about 'growing apart' right now." I told him I wanted him to move because then he can figure out what he wanted. I sent him a long email too which gave him a total amount he will need to deposit for S. I did not ask for any other bills. BUT STOP STOP STOP. Here's where the WAIT acronym would have been helpful!
I did send a joke and talked to him lightly on the phone half hour ago. We talked about S's upcoming birthday. I called.
As far as I go - I notice that the days I don't GAL, I blow up. Go figure.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
My more of the same behavior:
Follow him around the house (I stopped)
engage more with the computer than him
repeat repeat repeat everything
chase him
not lash out over comments or opinions from him
being at home every time he is (I will take S out before H gets home on friday afternoon so he arrives at empty house).
'remind' him of our previous relationship
My ultimate goals (when I know I am successful):
H and I will be able to discuss the importance of having family and quality time together. H will acknowledge that allowing OW in his life does not improve the quality of our family life, nor of his own and will work on steps of re-engaging with me if he feels like he is wavering.
Goal 2: H will call me from work just to see what we are doing. H will show more interest in my life and what I am doing, and will initiate activities.
Goal 3: Communication. When H wants to communicate H will initiate more conversations. I will not let my emotions fly if he says something I disagree with. I will acknowledge his statement so he knows I heard him. H and I will be able to talk about our feelings and hopes for the future again.
Goal 4: H will be able to acknowledge his repeated depression is affecting his decision making, and see alternative ways to work through it (sports, journaling, talking).
My personal goals:
Goal 1) I will not engage with H when he is moody in a way that is not constructive. I will not feel 'responsible' for checking up on him (aka spying) to determine what kind of mood he is in.
Goal 2) I want to accomplish my fitness goals.
Goal 3) I want to learn to cook some better meals for my S, ensuring that we ARE eating and I'm not slipping down a depressive state with my H.
Goal 4) I will go to events, movies, shows by myself if I need to.
On a side note, H wants me to sell the house. Even though I don't care for the house in particular, I think it's better to stay here (and I can afford it on my own) during this time. I didn't want to transition S into an apartment, and then not have a connecting point with H. I would like to rent out the house in the future, but unless a divorce actually comes and forces me from the house, I would like to keep a consistent place for us.
H gets angry about that, but I'm trying to ignore it. Am I being unreasonable?
The sad part about your H being intimate with you is that it most likley is him fulfilling a need. It doesn't necessarily "mean" anything. Women like to think of sex meaning love but at a time like this, don't. Also please remember that you can not control him or how he behaves. You can only control your goals.
As for the ones you kind of set for both of you...did he do any of those things before? If not, it is going to take a lot of work and willingness on his part to get there. You really should set things like that together. Right now you aren't there.
From my personal experience, it was not good when my former H left our house. It gave him a chance to live his life without me and actually I believe spend a whole lot of time with his affair partner though they supposedly had stopped seeing each other at the time. He was on the fence for a while, I could tell that much but I didn't know about these boards at that time and didn't know how to move that to my advantage.
Hang in there. kat
So very true regarding a 'need'. I'm quite okay with that at the moment. I guess it's because i see him as lashing out because he is angry/scared and I think he letting his guard down a bit, protesting as a way of protection, but not acting as defensive as he had just a couple of weeks ago.
I hear you on the potential danger that could happen once H leaves the house. In no way do I want him to go, but I did say I was okay with it and I don't think I get a choice as to if he is going to move out. I have told him that while I would like him to stay, I am okay with his decision to move because it gives him space to figure out what he wants. I told him a relationship with affairs I will not tolerate. I don't know if he would get re involved with the OW... I doubt it as he was rejected and served on a platter to me, (she told me what he was up to -something that if I were ever a OW, I would NEVER do). In the meantime, in the 13 days I have left, I'm trying to make this a nice home to come to (meaning me not being stress and bossy and to let things go!).
One a good note, I have been working on saying things only one time and assuming he hears me. So this morning I mentioned how it would be great if he could adjust his work schedule (he works until 11pm which I find has had a part in killing our relationship and doesn't help him as he doesn't sleep enough) and that he could be home somewhere between 8:00 to 9 before S goes to bed. I said that S would absolutely be thrilled to see him. Well, he shut the door and didn't acknowledge me. So rather than repeat it over and over, I just got ready for work.
I did call him at 7pm and just kept it very light (no relationship talk, just a 'would you rather' question that I thought was a fun conversation starter (remember I'm trying to not be serious!) told him what we were doing, and the handed phone to S). I know he heard us giggling as he hung up, having fun and he seemed down on the phone - but I didn't ask about it.
Anyway, at 8:30p the door opened and he was there and S bolted for the door. I've never seen S so excited.
I was shocked that H actually did it.
Later after S went to bed (later than usual tonight), I said to H: "I don't know what you had to do at work to make this happen, but thank you. I've never seen him so excited, not even about his birthday present." H didn't say anything, but I know he heard me. We watched tv together, I didn't start conversations, but would make a couple comments here or there that he responded to.
Today's mission was to not call, and not email. I called 1 time, and didn't email anything. I think the one phone call with S went well, I was happy with it, and I think it will be okay, and possibly get H reconnected to our home, regardless of what happens.
For me: I had to miss a work event tonight as I got sick again. However, tomorrow night I have a counseling appointment, and I'm starting to reconnect at work (I've struggled with it). I feel more motivated and I've made plans to go to the gym with my girl friend this week.
For every positive, there's a negative.
This morning I stupidly asked him if he had plans over the weekend. He said 'no'. I said: "well, what do you think about hiking or minature golf?" He said "I can't be more clear that I don't want to spend time with you."
It just escalated from there.
Now I feel like my day is ruined... Which is back to the beginning for me. Every positive step that I took seems gone.
LIO, don't let this ruin your day. I know everyone has said it, and I'll say it again - you have to detach your emotions from comments from you H. (Easier said than done. Believe me!)
Maybe it was a little too soon to ask about spending time doing an activity like that? Hopefully the vets will come storming in and give you some advice. I don't think you're starting at the beginning again. I think you recognize what happened, and you move on.
I hope your day is going better!
I swear it is like all the WAS have ascript that they all follow! You need to back off. You are rushing in every time you see a positive...STOP. Let him think about the positive moment for a while, let him initiate. This will be a huge 180 for you at the moment.
kat
Also don't call him unless it has to do with your son. No checking in on him right now. No relationship talks.
kat
Thank you so much for responding!
I agree - I'm backing off, I understand now that by 'inviting' him along with whatever plans I was doing, he took it as I wasn't listening to him, and in his words 'being delusional' Which wasn't my intention.
I had a IC last night... which was interesting.
A good point I learned: I need to read Codependent No More
I have spent too much of my life 'managing' and 'fixing' the relationship. I agree with this. I lost site of myself. I am reminded of that 'gift of time' statement.
Also I did realize that H doesn't communicate with his family about relationships or important issues, so why would I expect him to do the same with me? He never learned that skill and he grows angry when I do try to 'talk things out' because it's not how he's dealt with life before. I'm not saying this is right/wrong, but at least I see why we seem to be on two different planets sometimes... or why he thinks I'm being 'annoying' by talking so much.
Now on to the rest:
She thinks I need to consult with a lawyer as he seems like a 'loose cannon' to her. I don't think he is a loose cannon yet. But she says that I am not taking care of myself and my S and divorce is inevitable.
In the next couple of weeks, she wants to work on 'mourning the death of my relationship'. I am struggling with this thought. It seems so 'final' to me when she says that. Like there is NO hope. ever.
He 'sounds' bipolar to the IC, but unless he goes in and actually gets treatment, she says there is no hope. I do think he struggles with this, and in the past, I sent him info about it but I can't make him do anything about it.
I left there feeling worse then I arrived. I ended up talking to my MIL of all people (the same woman who struggles with the issues that her S does). Her advice was strangely so so close to the DB on here. GO figure... She may not be as 'off' as I thought.
She told me to give him space, to let him see what he is missing. To be cordial, and not 'talk' as I have. She believes he'll come around. She also basically told me to GAL. LOL.
Start a running program, a exercise program...something with a start and end date so I know I'm working towards a goal.
I'm sorry if I am being repetitive, sometimes I feel like I need to remind myself a lot....
I am currently in the process making a list to post to my bathroom mirror and wallet of my goals. With start and end dates and shiny stars for my calendar
That way when I feel like waivering and calling on H, I just go check my progress and pick a item off the list to do.
I always felt that the relationship that we had, had been destroyed by the affair. I felt that anything that we hoped to have together needed to be built on a new and strong foundation. So take that as your relationship dying.
I don't believe in going to a counselor who just says your marriage is over. She must not be pro marriage. I have seen a few relationships saved but those have been where the LBS really dropped the rope, were moving on with their lives and not stuck trying to figure out their WAS. Some get there faster than others.
Listen to your MIL, if she is similiar to her son then she knows what she is talking about. Some of us do too, even if our marriages weren't saved.
hugs, kat
Journaling:
I restarted my running program. I'm getting over a sickness, but ran 3 miles today. I've decided that I'm going to run a marathon. That will give me a start and finish. Unfortunately lots of time in my head too - but that's okay. In the past when I've run (I've only gotten to 1/2 marathon distance) I was in my head trying to figure out H. Today I was running and working on developing my goals further while I was out there. I had brief moments where I would think about the impending move date, but then I said to myself "I've done everything I can. I've given him information about the cycles, places he can go, and he needs to worry about himself if he wants to get better. I can only worry about me and S now." I had a good run. 15 lbs of stress pounds lost actually makes running easier.
I guess he called a therapist to go in and talk. Of course, I'm not supposed to 'know' that as he won't talk to me yet. Whatever. The reality of him moving is coming closer (plus it's about the end of his mania right now where life starts to look better to him). I don't know what will come of that, nor am I asking. He has his 'cycle' history from me in b&w. He's talking a little more to his dad. I don't take these as 'good'. The end of another cycle. I guess the difference for me is this I'm choosing to 'live' life without him instead of living it with him for 6 'good' months of the year. I told him at one point, 'I can't go through another winter.'
I actually wonder what a winter would be like when I am not consumed with someone else's depression, their moodiness. And me feeling lonely and disconnected.
I've got my list of goals to do now, and he knows I said "goodbye" already. I guess that's my 'closure'. I can't be part of that type of relationship anymore that I only get 'him' for 6 months of the year before the 'other' one comes and withdraws. I can't live that life anymore. I've got this person named "LIO" to now look after, who I've neglected for 6 months of a year for 10 years, and I've got a 5 year old who I need to keep an eye on (if this is bipolar - which it sounds like, it's genetic).
A relationship with him is a 50/50 shot. I don't *want* to give up on him... but it's a cycle, and as such I will give it up because I need to. I will have a better idea if this will work when I am healthier in my own head, and if he gets some help with his issue. Until then, I will be cordial, I will be nice. I will be receptive to him but only if I KNOW he is working on himself. I don't feel like 'grieving' my relationship in the way my counselor wants me to. I don't see the point. I see a man with an illness and it's getting worse. I have given him every resource I can. Now his life is up to him. He's a free bird now. I'm trying to rebuild MY life now. I can't compromise myself anymore to 'be' the perfect wife, the perfect anything. I want to enjoy life too instead of trying to balance all the plates up on the high wire. I don't want to slip in my confidence that sometimes shows up!
I think that's my true self and it's time to be true to myself.
How are you doing today?
kat
Thank you so much for popping in Kat
Sunday was a crappy day. The silence is deafening to me and I could NOT SHUT UP. I need to learn how to accept quiet. H said "This is the hardest part." as if everything will be wonderful and perfect after a divorce.
S was at the beach with FIL. When S got back, H said to him "Oh we should go to the beach soon!" We doesn't include me with him. I don't exist.
Later on, I stayed outside with S and played with the neighbor kid. H came out to make his 'presence known' to me. (If I ignore him for a period of time, he will go to wherever I am for a made up reason so he can see that I see him - like a peacock). Then H blew up at his dad so loud S and I could hear it outside. (FIL is still here). FIL walked out the house and would have left permanently if it weren't for my S.
Then for the final part of the day: H says I 'hover' too much and don't allow him to do anything with S (he is home with S in the mornings alone, and H usually spends his free time sleeping, playing video games, or drawing). I said "Thank you for telling me that. I had no idea that you felt that way or that I did that. I'll try to work on that." H rolled his eyes and then mentioned the Divorce and getting the phantom serving paperwork signed (he then threatened me with getting a server) which I said "do whatever you feel you need to".
Yesterday, we barely spoke. I called for S because S wanted to talk. When S said (and not with prompting from me) "Dad, I really want you home at night" (H works until 11:00pm at his OWN choice - he could change that if he wanted to) H got angry with ME... (in private in the past 2 years, I had mentioned that S has said several times that he would love to see him before he goes to bed).
S is breaking my heart. He is telling FIL at night heartbreaking statements like no one likes him, and he's acting now more now. H doesn't see it as a problem. He's too wrapped up in his own head. So I am working with S now trying to reassure him.
I don't recognize H. He is a ghost of himself. He hyperfocuses on S in one moment with playing intensely, but then doesn't really 'deal' with S's feelings. H's family doesn't 'talk'. I do. I want S to talk.
I'm trying to stay positive, but it's hard when I'm speaking to a brick wall with H. Last night, he got home and I was watching TV. H turned on that laptop (effectively cutting me out), then even after I offered to sit on the chair so he could have the couch, he said 'no' then took the pillow and blanket and went to sleep on the floor of the office. I said nothing else and did not follow him. Usually when he gets home I say "Hey, how was work?" or try to get some little conversation going. But I think I'll stop that too.
I did not wake up and go down and lay next to him. Good for me.
Today I woke up with another song playing in my head:
"Little Talks" from Of Monsters and Men
Mainly these parts (mine would be the pink)
There's an old voice in my head that's holding me back
Well tell HIM [her] that I miss our little talks.
Soon it will all be over, buried with our past
We used to play outside when we were young and full of life and full of love.
Some days I feel like I'm wrong when I am right.
Your mind is playing tricks on you my dear.
You're gone, gone, gone away,
I watched you disappear.
All that's left is a ghost of you.
Now we're torn, torn, torn apart,
there's nothing we can do,
Just let me go, we'll meet again soon.
Now wait, wait, wait for me, please hang around
I'll see you when I fall asleep.
That's the extent of living with a person who is hot/cold. Undiagnosed bipolar. Getting pushed, then pulled. I am usually a take action kinda gal. This doing nothing is very very very hard. But I will be consulting with a few lawyers soon. I have no idea what H will do, or won't do.
The 15th is coming up soon. I say nothing about H moving out. He says nothing. I don't know his plans. One time he mentioned that he would come over every morning and make S breakfast. I don't think he realizes what being 'divorced' means, but he will realize that he is still the same as he is now... unhappy. I however know that S and I will be better off if H refuses to get help for himself.
No, I don't want a divorce...but I want to be ready and this isn't fair to S or me.
So onto what I CAN control.
No communication with H.
Focus on S.
On the non-H side.
S and I built a birdhouse that S had been asking H about for a year. So we did it yesterday.
My house is getting cleaner now.
I am working on getting stuff sold online, and getting the garage cleared. I wrote down my goals regarding getting the house ready for sale this summer so I have a focus.
My new pants are getting bigger (I might be able to get into a smaller size at the end of the month!)
And SIL and MIL come into town Friday.
LIO your H sounds like mine with the bi-polar thing! Just keep waking up each morning, smiling when you make it through and each day will get a little easier. Sounds like you and your S are doing a lot. Good for you both.
Hang in there.
Hi LIO, it sounds like you are getting a good hold on detaching. Good for you for keeping focused on your S. I laughed at your peacock comment because I also imagined him strutting around with his chest puffed out and his hands on his hips. I know what you mean, though.
Wow.....
4:30 I haven't called or emailed H all day.
H just called asked about S (who is sick) and what I'm up to. I said, 'nothing, just reading and rubbing S's feet'.
H then goes off on a tirade about how he's going to get me served today or tomorrow and that he will be printing off the paperwork and giving it to me. He's upset because he gave this to me almost 3 weeks ago and he called the court to see where the process was at and nothing has been done (I hadn't been served).
He starts in on how he would have had this all done and he could get on with his life.
I asked "what's going on today? Is there something happening at work?" and he continues on.... I just stayed quiet. When he asked "So do you want to sign the papers or do you have to be embarassed in front of other people? I will have to find someone else to serve you" I said "You are going to have to do whatever you feel is right."
He said "I don't understand why you don't want a divorce, and why you are fighting this. I'm done. Had it not been for S I would have just walked away. (I don't *think* that is true) You can't force me to be happy in this marriage. A marriage takes 2."
I said "There are a lot of reasons why I don't want to divorce. And I am not trying to force you into staying married. I understand that you aren't happy right now (H interrupts me to tell me that it's NOT JUST TODAY) Maybe one day in the future we'll look back on this and you would be happy I gave it a fight." He said "Well we'll cross that bridge when we get there." and then on and on about how BS the courts are and how hard it is to get divorced (in paperwork process). I said "Yes well when it comes to divorce, I think it should be difficult, especially when there are children involved."
He then said that he was going to get me served and wants to get on with his life and had to go (he was working at the front desk) and I said, "Ok, well have a nice rest of the day" as calmly as I could. and hung up.
HOLY CRAP>>>>>>>>
I am literally trying not to bust out crying right now. I remained calm on the phone but I'm freaking out. S is sleeping right now.... thank goodness.
So when he comes home tonight with the paperwork.... what do I do?!
I answered you on the other thread that you posted on. As I said there, I think it is important to keep your threads together as much as possible. You may get more traffic on a section which fits what you are going through. Do what you feel comfortable with.
kat
Ok what the heck....
H gets home at 10, S is still up (long nap today). As I've been told I hover, I just go upstairs, don't say a word and fold laundry while they take puppy out.
They come in watch tv and eat. I am waiting for papers that I was threatened with earlier....
Nothing.
I leave quietly to get gas in car. I planned what I would say: "H, I'm busy right now. I'm doing xyz" and then i would have walked away like he does... Basically given him no emotions anymore.
I Arrive to a darkened entry (saw the light get flipped off) and as I'm trying to shut the door, I turn around and see H pointing a "finger gun" at me which I let out a big "omg that scared me!" exclamation.
I was expecting papers.... Even then. Nothing.
He smirked, turned around went to living room and watched tv (turned around to make sure I was watching him/tv). I didn't say goodnight. I didn't go down and talk. I didn't want to engage.
I put S to bed and H asked me about the dog.
No papers... No talking.
Tomorrow I leave early for work. No calls from me, no emails (like today). I'm not even going to pick up phone if he calls... No way.
What the heck.
Could this be a bit of his bipolar personality? It sounds almost like a cat playing with his mouse. Don't be the mouse be a cat...aloof.
Kat
Possibly. I like the analogy, so I will remember that!
I am reading about detachment today.
I also have an appointment with a lawyer today just to make sure I know everything I need to. H left the serving paperwork where i could see it, but did not say anything. I don't know why I should "help" him with this as he asked. I always am the fixer. I always am the doer. I am treating this like a 180. H is mad because I am "dragging my feet.". I said that I don't want to rush into something based on emotions. I can't make good decisions doing that. H blew up and told me he was leaving for the day and that I'd have to find other arrangments for S for the day. He stormed upstairs and I let him be. H came down and I ignored him. I did get info from him that he has made a call to a counselor again. I hope they are good and he sticks with it. I am not getting more involved with that unless he says something.
I went running (part of my physical health improvement.) and took S with me on his bike. I am down another 1.5 lbs and hit my first goal. Stress diet I call it.
I am looking into some creative classes I can take. I also got a truckload of stuff donated (trying to make my eventual upcoming move easier).
Last night H finally let his dad talk to him (after 3 months of fil being here). I know that other family members shouldn't be involved, but fil has been here the entire time in the house and has front row seats and is very upset over his S, and more importantly my S.
While watching tv, H told me to sign the paperwork after I gave him a compliment and mentioned he should pursue one of his interests. I noted that.
His apartment lease is on the 15th, so just a few more days to go. I am going to keep myself busy in this time and my S will be traveling with his grandpa.
In other news, I found out that I have a lot of work to do to get this house sellable. Yikes. So I have things to do short term, but I need to start looking at my long term goals too...
Thank you for letting me talk and offering me feedback. I get too involved with naval gazing sometimes
. That whole see the forest for the trees business!
One more thought.....
I was realizing that I live in fear... Of the future, of what's in my head, of what I imagine. I did mention to H that I have for years walked on eggshells around him when he gets moody, when he goes through his period like this, H didn't know that.
I didn't say that to get him to change.
I said it because I don't want to keep living in fear. I want to be excited about my future. That's why I need long term goals and to keep creating long term goals.
With H, I can count on ups and downs... His distractions are always my focus. That was my fault.
That is why I am working on not being reactive. I would love some resources, guidance on that.
My DB coach once told me that "Fear is a powerful motivator but a terrible guide." Something to think about.
I was realizing that I live in fear... Of the future, of what's in my head, of what I imagine. I did mention to H that I have for years walked on eggshells around him when he gets moody, when he goes through his period like this, H didn't know that.
I said it because I don't want to keep living in fear. I want to be excited about my future. That's why I need long term goals and to keep creating long term goals.
You don't want to live like that, because that's no way to live. For me, I think it took some time to realize I was always walking on eggshells, afraid my W was going to drop the D bomb or leave. I think you will find a lot of freedom if you can move past that. You may discover it's definitely a life you don't want to go back to - at least that's the way it is for me.
Re: the fear....
I visited a lawyer today. I felt very confident after I left because while I was there, I realized. It is ME who has a handle on reality.
I don't need to be afraid if I could survive on my own, I can.
I walked in with all my paperwork. Turns out that I can refuse him serving me, and unless he takes the steps to get me served officially, the case will be dismissed in 90 more days.
Yes, 90 days is a long time that he can still serve me, and if he chooses to pursue this, I'll deal with it then. I walked in and said "I know you are in the business of divorces, but I am not. I do want to know my legal rights." It was an amazing 1.25 hours of me verifying my research, and knowledge definitely is power. I left there with not only confirmation, but concrete goals. We talked about benchmarks of H's that he could obtain (lawyer had experience with ppl like my H and if they continue down this path what it will mean to me financially and emotionally), along with what I can do regarding moving forward. We also talked about how the weather here can really affect people mentally...
I left there confident, and like I could do anything. I would be okay. This is the fist time I've stopped letting my emotions and my H's emotions persuade me into action. I CAN do this. I had said before that I should have studied law... I might look into it. It seems exciting.
I actually got more out of that visit then I did the counselor!
So my plan is while S goes out of town, I do not answer phone calls. I do not pursue. Regardless if H leaves this week, I start to prepare house for sale. I do have some studying I want to do, and without S here, it will free up my time.
No running today, but I have two workouts planned for tomorrow.
Happy couples I see depress me, trying hard today to not do a temp check.
He allowed me to lay on the couch with him... no angry tone, no sighs of exhasperation.. No sex allowed I guess. But no talk of D either.
No temp checks allowed. 5 days until lease of apt. Please tell me this is the right thing to do.....
I said hello this morning, tried to kiss his head (something he allowed several times this week before), and he asked about the paperwork. Then told me on Monday he will serve me.
So maddening. I'm probably pushing too much.
I asked for some money later today. I didn't want to, but two months of him not helping finanically, nor paying any money for kiddo is hurting a bit.
Advice needed:
Every night I sleep in our bed upstairs... Every night so far he sleeps downstairs. We own our home, but this was the year we were supposed to sell (we were on a 5 year plan to live here). We both hate the house.... So should I continue with my plan to fix and put the house up for sale this summer (with his permission), would that hurt the possibility of him coming back?
I have a tendency to rush things... He wants me to sell the home. I want to, but I also want a consistent place for s, and maybe for h to realize he should come back to... Yes I can afford it, but only if h is paying me c.s. It's tight.
I get the feeling that h is just regarding me as a formallity. Someone he can easily just go on ignoring indefinitely. Our schedules over the last 2 years lent themselves to that. It seems like he can just find a replacement activity or person for me, and focus all his energy into that instead of fixing anything with me. It's easier for him to "start over" with no strings.
Does anyone have experience with that? I'm struggling today emotionally...
You are still rushing in when you have a good sign ie him letting you lay beside him. You are chasing and that only makes people run away. I know it isn't what you want but quit trying to make things happen.
How is he ever going to chase you if you are constantly at his heels?
Anything new? No chasing right?
I would go ahead and make plans to fix the house up to sell, and inform him you need his help. It may take something like that to trigger him. Continue as if you are moving forward.
I said hello this morning, tried to kiss his head (something he allowed several times this week before), and he asked about the paperwork. Then told me on Monday he will serve me.
So maddening. I'm probably pushing too much.
I asked for some money later today. I didn't want to, but two months of him not helping finanically, nor paying any money for kiddo is hurting a bit.
Advice needed:
Every night I sleep in our bed upstairs... Every night so far he sleeps downstairs. We own our home, but this was the year we were supposed to sell (we were on a 5 year plan to live here). We both hate the house.... So should I continue with my plan to fix and put the house up for sale this summer (with his permission), would that hurt the possibility of him coming back?
I have a tendency to rush things... He wants me to sell the home. I want to, but I also want a consistent place for s, and maybe for h to realize he should come back to... Yes I can afford it, but only if h is paying me c.s. It's tight.
I get the feeling that h is just regarding me as a formallity. Someone he can easily just go on ignoring indefinitely. Our schedules over the last 2 years lent themselves to that. It seems like he can just find a replacement activity or person for me, and focus all his energy into that instead of fixing anything with me. It's easier for him to "start over" with no strings.
Does anyone have experience with that? I'm struggling today emotionally...
Big events this weekend.
Today was move out day...
It sucked... kind of.
Today I sent my S (5) is now on his way to visit Gma and Gpa 2 states away. I thought it would be best if he weren't here. I've never been apart from him.
Last night, H came to me saying that:
"I've cheated 2 times in 13 years, the problem IS YOU (Lio)" and that "You (Lio) try to justify what I did (the cheating), you try to make it into something else" (note: which I didn't... I never gave him excuses, or reasons of his own behavior. I asked why - but never talked to him about my thoughts on why - or even gave him a reason in my own head). I told him "Oh no, I don't justify it - I think you are an [swearword] for putting me through that. I hate that you did that and I do not want to be cheated on ever. I hate that you lied. I hate that you felt the need to do that instead of telling me what you needed. And worst of all, I hate that you didn't spend time with me when I needed you to. I don't justify it at all, but I think that it something that needs to be looked at by YOU on why you did it."
He came up and initiated sex this morning. For the first time in 3 months.
I did initially flip out and have a crazy moment when he started packing and moving his stuff downstairs. Then I realized that that is NOT the behavior I want to exhibit. So I started helping him pack. He said "I don't need your help". I left the box upstairs for him to take down.
I mentioned before, I feel he projects his feelings onto me (and others). I learned:
1) In the past he mentioned my 'crappy' job (which I never said). Translation: He is unhappy with his situation in life with work (confirmed directly this morning)
2) He said that I justify his cheating (I didn't do, didn't say). Translation?: He is unhappy he cheated, he tries to say it doesn't bother him and he justified it and now can't deal with that. I didn't 'punish' him enough I guess.... in his eyes.
3) Today he said He HATES our house. Wants me to get rid of it (I think he is using this as a reason to force me to change our living situation). I think if we ever reconciled, he would never come back to this house.
3) Today He backslid from going gangbusters on divorce (he said "I just need to take some time I don't want to keep doing this circle. Right now, this is all I can do to change it")
His tone was nicer today.
We goofed off for 10 minutes with one of his toys inside, and talked a bit outside. I only opened the truck door for him later. The extent of my 'helping'.
Standing outside between his moving boxes, I heard from him:
that he was frustrated with work and that while the people were nice and he liked the job, he can't advance. He's stuck. He's working on side projects, but doesn't know if they will succeed. He wants to make more money, but doesn't feel like he can.
He hates the house... he feels stuck.
He agreed that his work schedule created a big barrier between "us". I said, "I know it might be hard for you to change it, but it really hurt us and put us here, and it doesn't give you opportunity to work on your business goals". I don't know if he can change it - but he knows if he wants to come back and still works there - it doesn't work especially since S will be starting school (during the hours H was home) and he isn't able to connect with us.
Just as he left, He did tell me that he would help me get the house ready, to call him for help. He said he would be here more than he has been to do things with S (and me). He did also tell me to get a list of 5 things on my own business that I was working on ready for him and that he would help me.
I did stupidly(??) says (I thought he needed to hear me say we needed him and that I heard his 'stuck' concerns): " I get you are frustrated and feel stuck. I think maybe you feel like a fresh start would help. I want you to be successful in your business, in your career, and of course, here with us. I hope you can see that I want to work with you, but I don't want to make things worse and tell you what to do. Bottom line is I need you here, our S needs you home at night. I'm letting you go because ultimately I feel we will be together the rest of our lives, and this will be a blip in our timeline. You need space. But if/when you do come back. COME Back. not like the in and out the year before. We always are a good team together, and we can strategize our next plan."
He still has stuff here. He "couldn't" fit it all in his truck (well.... he could have but said he couldn't). I don't even think he has furniture (or that he will even get any).
Even though he is 'gone', it seemed like he is still maybe leaving the door open?
I am not pursuing H now. Without S here this week, I don't know if H will be here - but I would be interested to see how long H stays over this week.
Finally, he is always mentioning how he wants me to do my business. Like all the time mentioning it. I guess I ought to work on that then. Maybe if I show I'm successful at that, it will give him hope, and as it's creative, we can connect over the creative part of it. Worst case, it gives me a income
Re this:
"Just as he left, He did tell me that he would help me get the house ready, to call him for help. He said he would be here more than he has been to do things with S (and me). He did also tell me to get a list of 5 things on my own business that I was working on ready for him and that he would help me."
That was all him. I didn't prompt him at all. I didn't ask for help. I didn't bring up any of this.
Maybe a little flicker of a lightbulb from him on what he is going to miss?
Maybe a little flicker of a lightbulb from him on what he is going to miss?
Or guilt?
I am not trying to squash your hope but I also don't want you to mind read.
I am tellng you though but you won't do it. The best course of action is to detach from him and place no weight in his words.
Get your own life and don't allow him to help you unless it is what he legally should be contributing.
make yourself independent of him and live your life like he is not coming back.
I know this seems counterintuitive but really he wants separation and so he will get it whether you agree or not, so agree.
Throw down your guns.
There will be no one to fight. When he is not fighting you.
Maybe
Maybe
He may see that you are a woman worth pursuing.
Anything short of that. Him coming to you. Is a fools compromise and you will not be satisfied with your bargain.
There is time for compromise and its when he wants to gain back ground on the way back toward you. Until then.
Keep your distance. Protect yourself.
Yes, I have lots of experience in mind-reading
Bad habit to break!
I am posting here to keep from calling H. Now would be the time he'd usually get home - first night apart. Yikes.
I was feeling really good earlier. Like a vacation from emotional drama. I had passing thoughts about how I don't need to worry about what he is up to, who he is talking to, and what I could expect in tone/actions when I saw him. Now I'm feeling the quietness...
Time for some music and sleep instead
Today's Journal:
No calls from me, no emails, no texts. yea! Day 1 a success.
I ended up writing "myself" emails when I felt like emailing. I realized everything I wrote already had been said or written before.
Received call from H early in the morning. He sounded excited, and told me about S's phone call. Then mentioned how he took money out for me, and his plans for the day and that we would meet up later today for the $. I said "oh that's great! How's your new apartment? Like it? (he did). Miss me yet? (nope)" He asked if I missed him. I ignored it and jokingly said "Oh don't worry, you will miss me!". (not going to go that route again!) Then the conversation turned back to the $ he got.
M: "Good! that should cover the first month"
H: "What? I can't afford to pay you that amount each month, what bills of mine are you paying?"
I very nicely and calmly ran down the list of our S's bills and our credit card bills (not including our house or utilities) that the amount covered.
H: started to sound pissed. "Well, we will have to figure out when we can meet up. I'll call later"
M: Okay, sounds like a plan! Have a good day today. Talk to you later. (trying to stay upbeat without too chipper).
No more contact from H today.
Yikes... so today was a learning day. Oh well. Guess he didn't really do his budget with the C.S., the credit card and our son's school bill. Even though he did have a copy of the amounts 2 months ago, apparently at 33 years old, he is now experiencing what bills are. That was my fault for letting him get away with that in the past. He knows now, so hopefully future conversations won't have to be about money. Very awkward.
I'm delving into the MLC section. I read a post by Kaffe Diem about WAS and MLC in I believe Netmaster's thread, and the wording and actions of H are sounding like a MLCer.
Off to the gym! I'm down 2 pounds for a total of 22 since bomb #2 02/15. Primarily through stress, but I'll take the loss
My estimate is that I'll be in tip top shape in 5 months at this rate. Generally the start of H's usual down swing. I'm not putting deadlines on this whole situation, but at least I have a goal for 5 months from now that involves myself!
Also Been thinking a lot about TrueGritter's post today.
Whenever I wanted to email something to tell H how angry I was, I heard "Throw down your guns" in my head.
"Keep your distance" and Kat with her "you are pursuing!"
Reread my thread last night too - thank you for everyone who posts in here. I truly appreciate it, and it's so helpful to go back and reread all the advice that I didn't do, or couldn't do - and now try to put it in practice, as my emotions aren't running so high.
Off to the gym! I'm down 2 pounds for a total of 22 since bomb #2 02/15. Primarily through stress, but I'll take the loss
Good for you, LIO!
Even if it's through stress, it's not a bad thing to capitalize on.
I think you're learning this, but it's best to avoid this type of question right now. You're probably going to get the same answer every time regardless of what he's feeling.
Good for you for following the others' advice and holding back on the flamemail. It doesn't do anything productive for you and it just makes you miserable anyway.
So you see your H isn't living in reality right now. He didn't take those bills into account even though he had the figures. Did your H every get diagnosed as bipolar? Sometimes I think MLC gets the wrap for lots of bad behavior but I do believe it does actually exist.
It hits with the reality that your life is about half over and you really aren't going to live forever. What have you accomplished? Is this all there is? Those kinds of things float through your head. I would think it would be pretty rare for someone your H's age to have those kinds of thoughts.
Don't give him an out for his behavior because if he ever comes back to normal(has he ever been?) he will have to answer for alot of this stuff.
Keep working on you. Don't sell the house unless it is something that 1) you want to do for yourself and 2)are not able to afford it and 3)are legally required to. Don't ask fishing questions. You know what those are... the ones where you try to get him to admit that he loves you, misses you, made a mistake etc. How can it be genuine when you are baiting him with what to say?
hang in there, kat
Kat, He didn't get diagnosed as far as I know. I haven't asked if he even saw the therapist. I'm trying to stay out of his business at this point. He's on an upswing atm, so he wouldn't be as likely to see a therapist.
Yep - H had no idea about money. His greatest idea yet is to take a class and get financial aid money (where's my roll eyes icon? because being in more debt is exactly what he needs.)
Journal for today:
H came over this morning to pick up more stuff. We were both in a good mood until 'money' came up where he got heated, of which he mentioned me signing the D paperwork and if we decide to marry again in 2 years (?) then we will just do that. He also asked me why I was fighting him. I tried to use reflective listening, and also mentioned out that h moved out, and has all his money and I didn't fight him about either of those (he agreed).
He continued on about money that his 90 day deadline from the court was in July that if I don't sign, then he wasted the filing money. I said "It's just money, it's on the credit card we both have to pay anyway." I also mentioned the shift in mood due to the money topic. He said that he noticed that. I didn't want to have our conversations always about money because of that, and now that he knows how much it is, I would like to not discuss it further.
Money is a very sore subject for him. I make more than he does and he is resentful of the fact that I can actually double my salary right now if I wanted to (He brought that up today and said: "it's nice YOU get a choice and an option to NOT do it" H said). Money isn't a big deal to me, and it is to him. I try to downplay it, I haven't moved forward in my career as I could, and I never mention the income difference to him. I did say that I'd rather be more creative like he is, and that he is in a better position than I am because of that.
H was very adamant I take his office for my work and start my business. He said that if he decides to move back in again, then he will just kick me out of there.
I joked with him about not stealing the tp and soap from the house before i rushed him out of the house.
While I want to be the fun, not serious girl that I used to be. I was trying to keep it light until he got pissy about money, then i tried to lighten it up. I can see how quickly i get a little positive signs or comments and i'm all ready for him to move home.... retreat. retreat!
I failed at not calling/texting/emailing. No serious stuff or flame mails or anything. I did mention how i see how he feels stuck in work, marriage, life, home and how sometimes distractions can seem good, but then get in the way. I said that I want him to be happy.
And Kat - yep, you are right, he does need to have to answer for a lot of this stuff. Otherwise we are right still in the same pattern. Me pursuing, him retreating, me giving up, him sneaking back in without a word. I stupidly texted/called/emailed today. Pursing habits. Need to be more aloof. I know this. I need to remember it in the moment. I will put a cat picture on my phone and computer background. Ok starting now... no calls, no emails. no texts. Deleting his contact info Again so I have to purposefully type it in the long way and knowingly know i'm breaking a rule. back on the horse. I guess of anything at least I'm recognizing it quicker.
Part Deux for today
Went to IC tonight. Got called out on the carpet lol. More about that in a bit.
BUT....
Tonight I did something I never did before. I went to a bar, with a girlfriend and it was karaoke night. I sang. I can't believe it. I did it! I never did that before. I thought 'well, what the hell, why not?'
I sang a Johnny Cash version of NIN's Hurt. It was awesome! I was nervous, but knew it by heart and sang it.
I loved it! Everyone said I did a good job. Who knows but it was fun and scary! I was given 3 song requests for the next time I go in: Carrie Underwood "before he cheats" (oh how I can relate to that), Shania Twain 'Any man of mine' and a duet of 'Picture from Kid Rock and Sheryl Crow (another song I can relate to).
I called H all excited about what I did. He wouldn't know about it otherwise and I wanted to show him YES I can go out and have a good time, thank you very much. Enough of me sitting at home and waiting. This LIO LEO is ready to roar.
So IC:
We talked about all the things that I have improved on since last session. Finished the book CoDependent No More. Talked about that. Talked about my plans, how I was focusing on me. I also mentioned how I was just 'letting' H go out and do his thing, and he can figure out his own path. The therapist thought she was talking to a different person than the week before. I learn fast I guess.... Anyway. at the end of the session, she called me out on something that I've heard a couple times before, but dismissed. She said that 1) my job is not stimulating to me. (I usually dismiss this but she is right, I'm bored). I'm intelligent (sure.) I use my H as a way to deal with the boredom because we play a cat/mouse game with each other (true) that keeps us occupied. And people like me are dangerous because we play with others' emotions and feelings (I've heard this before from a friend) because we like to 'see' how they react.
So next week, we discuss what to do with my brain.
I really did recognize a lot of what she was saying. I also heard my H in that too. Which is why I always said we make a wonderful team together when we are good. We have different strengths (mine is more book knowledge/business side of things/feelings his is creativity) and we are powerful when we work together. WE both do cat/mouse when we are bored with life.
I did tell H about this. I'm not try to convince him of anything about the relationship at this point, but I mentioned that I recognize so much similarities between us, which is what attracted me to him, and I know he doesn't understand why no one else thinks like that. I did admit that I did do the cat/mouse game, and that I know he does it too, and that is a waste of time for both of us. He also understood why I was so upset when he involved someone else who 'took' my place in the business.
Anyway I know he was unsure of what to say because it wasn't about 'US' in a married sense. Just our behavior in general.
My goal isn't to convince him of anything - I was just excited that there was a reason for what we/me do and next week I learn more.
My goal isn't to convince him of anything
Then why this
I called H all excited about what I did. He wouldn't know about it otherwise and I wanted to show him YES I can go out and have a good time, thank you very much. Enough of me sitting at home and waiting.
It is great that you GAL'd and got out of your comfort zone. The trouble is you still made it about your H.
Getting a life outside of H also means you do it whether he knows about it or not. He wouldn't have if you hadn't told him.
Why did you feel the need to do that?
Take your steps for you
When you walk a mile don't look behind you to see if he's following you.
It will get easier with each mile you walk.
There is a simple phrase around here:
DO FOR YOU.
When I first came here, and I think this is true for a lot of people, you think there is a magic pill or a silver bullet to this.
There isn't.
There is only you.
You could do everything by the book and your M still may not be saved because you can't control another person.
That is why the advice here is to focus on yourself.
It is really the best thing to do and gives you the best chance for success.
What is success for you here?
LIO, glad you went out and enjoyed yourself! Love the 3 songs requests you got. I could come and be your background singer! LOL
I'm not going to say you made your GAL about your husband. But I will say that you found a way to bring him into it when you had to call him about the good feelings you had from it. I made this same mistake in the beginning. I would do something (a 180 maybe), and would have to slip it into conversatoin with H. Then I realized, H#ll, I'm doing this for me. Forget him!
Keep doing what you're doing. Going out and doing something different and fun is important. But even more importantly is that you are doing it for YOU.
Truegritter: yes I did... I called him and was happy and excited that I did something I never did. I don't like that I called him to show him. Ugh. I feel ick now.
How would I define success. I would define it as me finding my confidence. Me being confident that doesn't involve others actions, words. I don't want to withold my excitement, my caring about others (but mostly not letting the 'caring' start to bring me down the codependent path). I would say me being independent would be a big change and success...
Darn you truegritter! (Nah I appreciate you!) That just voids my next post about how I feel uncomfortable with no communication!
A confident independent person would not be bothered by that.
I was waivering between calling him every few days, or letting him contact me. When he has his way, he might call or email once a month... gah.
LIO,
Great job of GAL'ing. Don't beat yourself up about advertising it to your H. You know now what to do the next time. The more GAL'ing you can do for yourself, the more your confidence will build. Do it for you. It will lift your spirits and boost your attitude. You won't have to advertise it to your H - it will speak for itself as the new you will just shine through by itself.
Hey - yeah, don't beat yourself up for sharing, it's natural to want to share that to someone like H. I also over-shared at first and now when I'm vague I get the who/what/when/where questions from H. Keep it up, you'll feel better
An "anonymous" internet quote seems appropriate here - "Keep smiling - it makes people wonder what you've been up to."
I was waivering between calling him every few days, or letting him contact me.
Which hurts you more?
Not hearing from him and not knowing what he is doing
Or
When you call him and the interaction doesn't meet your expectation?
I am not here to pee in your frosted flakes(forgive my colorful expression). Having said that, I am here to challenge you.
Because I have already been where you are.
Your peers are here to go through it with you and you will gain a lot strength from them.
Pay attention to your "ick" it will guide you to the right place. If you start lying to yourself you stumble.
Start believing those lies and you're lost.
Comes a day when the pain of not detaching is greater than the pain of the loss of your H.
That is the day you will take the step for YOU.
Really both. Not hearing from him, and then if I do call, it's hit or miss on the interaction. Sometimes we hit it off, sometimes he cold and just self-involved.
I hate that we barely saw each other before- and it was so easy for him to leave, like it didn't matter. With my S out of town, we have no reason to even interact, and everything is in 'vacation-mode' without having to take care of S's needs, or switch off who has him. One more week of trying to not contact him. One more week before we get out of vacation mode. Not sure how interactions will go.
Ok here we go:
goals for the week: NC for the weekend to the following Sunday/Monday. I need to hold strong to this.
Go run 4 times this week.
Get another book read.
Paint a room in the house.
Finish the yard.
No blog checks.
Otherwise I'm going to be spending more time obsessing like I did today. No good. No good.
Good!
What are you going to read?
Well... 2 books really:
How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It
and a non-relationship book, ThinkerToys (A Handbook of Creative-Thinking Techniques) part of my GAL is to get my business up and running.
I did find a local entrepreneur event for next Tuesday that I will go to as well, all about selling. Will be very helpful and something I've not done before (the networking with others, and learning how to sell).
wow, even just writing that was pretty powerful. Like being accountable for something that benefits just me. cool!
Journaling:
bad convo with H last night on phone. Textbook everything not to do or say in the conversation. I don't want to get into it all right now BUT at the end of the night, I realized:
--I am better off without 'THIS' version of him. And this is who I have to work with RIGHT now. Forget forever, forget in the past. THIS is what he is RIGHT now.
--His anger in his voice is not acceptable to me. I won't engage with him when he is being passive aggressive either.
--I am not a mind reader.
--I am not someone's 'back up' choice. I'm not interested in a R with him like last year when we were in limbo.
--I can't have a relationship with someone who 'wants' something (like more spare time to himself) never said anything about it and then 'punishes' me because I couldn't read his mind.
--There isn't mutual respect.
--I don't let strangers talk rudely to me and not walk away. Why not do the same to H.
--Pursuing behavior of someone who has checked out and exhibits selfish motives is pathetic. I would NEVER think of dating someone like H in his state at the moment. I would say 'pass'. So why chase?
--Arguments over 'feelings' are still pointless. Stop engaging in that.
--We all make our choices, and we all have benefits and consequences in life. I can only deal with my own choices.
--I can only work on and worry about myself.
--Getting trapped in all that nonsense is INSANE. just continuing the cycle that I 'say' I want to break from. We both do it, but I can only control myself, my actions and my responses.
Why would I want to be in a relationship with someone who I feel behaves selfishly, who never puts in the 'work' it takes and only wants the reward? Why would I want to live where I feel like my feelings don't matter, where I worry about if he is where he says he is... No. I would pass on my H if I were in the dating world. I have no expectations of him changing (I can't believe I wrote that - but it's true). I have no expectations. THIS is what I'm dealing with right now. I will be cordial, I will be pleasant - but any 'effort' I make is because I want to be a better version of me and because we have a S(5). It's not to attract 'THIS' H.
And oddly, the last thing i thought to myself was: why keep holding the rope. What's the point? Just gives me rope burns, tires out my muscles, and prevents me from doing anything else when I've got a death grip. Drop the damn rope.
I could care less if I get served at this point. I was afraid every day of talking to him that he'd bring it up or when I'd see a officer at work. Screw that. Do it or don't. If he brings it up again, I'll get the paper, sign it, hand it to him and say 'ok, here's your form, for your divorce. You spend your time in line at the court house.' Yes, that would shock him, but that's not the point. I really don't care either way. I'm tired of fighting. He expects me to keep fighting, and I'm done. I just don't care to spend any more effort in convincing someone who doesn't want it.
I thought that would be 'giving up', quitting. But to keep 'letting' him affect me is quitting on myself. It's a distraction.
I know, a big 'duh' moment. I'm getting there.
So enough with H. Back to me
Lost another .5 lbs. Ran 2 miles, walked and talked with BFF for 2 miles. She is so supportive and that's so nice to have in life. Someone who doesn't tell you what you 'should' do, but questions the hell out of your motives so you have to think.
(Like you all, but in real life!)
You sound so strong and focused on what's important: you! You WILL be a better person! You WILL be stronger! You WILL focus on what makes you happy! You WILL be with someone who respects you and what you offer!!
Great turning point for you!
I know, a big 'duh' moment. I'm getting there.
I am glad you are beginning to see your way through this.
Can't fix yourself when you're using your H as a mirror.
This is hard stuff to see when you're in the thick of it.What you just wrote is part of the process.
Living it is harder.
Keep steppin'
Thank you ScaredSilly and Truegritter, I appreciate it. I'm learning.
Journal:
I haven't succeeded at going fully dark. I guess I will call it 'dim'. Without S at home, I never see/talk to H - and he is LOVING vacation mode (no wife, no kid, no responsibilities) in his new apartment. Of course it doesn't hurt that this is the time period in his year that his mood goes up... I try to not worry that he will make moving out the reason he is so happy. I am trying to stop all imagined situations too.
Today I had a light conversation with H on the phone. Mainly about my business, and his projects. He gave me some good feedback on mine. We talked briefly about a movie he watched earlier in the week. Immediately after, I felt compelled to email him (one good sign always equals an open door to me) but I refrained. It is pursuing, and he clearly needs space. I wrote out an email, saved it to myself, and didn't send. I'm trying to implement a 24 hour rule of not responding. I will send a a brief thank you email in a couple of days. (words of affirmation, and I LIKE doing it) I will not include any R talk.
In my original email, I was basically giving away the game plan.... like detailing out the changes that he would 'soon' start to see. I stopped. The mystic of a OW is that there
is a mystery. WHY give away the playbook to the other team? So they can expect every move and say "yup, knew you were going to react this way." Why not create a mystery around me too? I usually like things done quickly, efficiently, and on time - but after reading other people's situations, and the archives, I understand that things don't happen according to predetermined time schedules. Drop expectations.
My lessons in this seem to be:
Patience
learn to stand on my own, stop being codependent
refind myself, and accomplish MY dreams.
Live and let live regarding H. Basically cooperating with H, without aggression or hidden motives.
I also see that H:
- Doesn't trust me. Most likely because he doesn't know how I will react. I am working on my reaction (not jump immediately to defensive mode). I did trust him until I found out about OW.
- doesn't 'speaks' in a way I understand. I don't *hear* what he says. I need to ask more exploratory questions without pressing him when he says something.
- says I stress him out. I'm not sure about this one yet. I have to do some experimenting on what will work and what doesn't. Usually money stresses him out, so money conversations are not good. He is not stressed when I let him be and when things just 'happen' and it's not planned. I talk too much too... lol, need to remember he is NOT my girlfriend!
I've also been thinking about what kind of person I would want to be. Dropping all the roles, who do I want to be and who am I?
I'm making my list.
On my personal front, I'm down another .5 lbs. I have never been able to lose weight before while trying, so I am going to take this.
I'm working on getting my house cleared out.
I found out that when I didn't do my 'to-do' list, I started to get depressed and thinking too much. That leads to bad phone calls with H.
Actually, changed my mind. No emails from me to H. Not even a thank you. While I appreciate his input, I don't particularly feel like it warrants much more than I gave it.
My lessons in this seem to be:
Patience
learn to stand on my own, stop being codependent
refind myself, and accomplish MY dreams.
Live and let live regarding H. Basically cooperating with H, without aggression or hidden motives.
oh my gosh thank you! This post has been a revelation. I love this list especially the last one. live and let live!
Journal:
Dang it, I checked that blog....
No calling, no emailing, no texting though.
His 'subject (character)' looks cool and collected on the outside, but is hollow inside, looking for something that isn't there anymore. Can't make his sadness any less sad, even if he wanted to.
and another was that Life doesn't undo.
urgh... Maybe he is processing this. Maybe not. As I am being unavailable and won't contact him myself, I won't know, and I'm not going to try to figure him out. If he is processing it, good... I'm glad that he is experiencing this time alone. Maybe give some perspective on what he had and what he did, and if it was worth it. Doesn't mean he will come back.
We couldn't be more opposite in how we approach life at this point. I look at it like 'well, I'll take a step, and I have faith that the staircase is there'. I hate the defeatist attitude he has. Like Eeyore. "Oh well, didn't need that heart anyway."
I feel free. It's odd. I felt so emotionally tied down and trapped in fear before, and now I just don't. I feel like the world is open to me and I can pick and choose what
I want to do. I love it. In the hardest of times, there IS always something good that comes of it. Sometimes you just have to look at it differently and get out of the comfort zone. Does that mean I love H any less, or I want a divorce? Nope, not at all. But he needs this experience too. If it's meant to be, we will be. I haven't let go of that thought. Yes it's not fun when I check my email and nothing, no phone calls... But this isn't all about me and my journey (even though I realize it's all me, me, me on this post). He has to have some growing to do too. I would absolutely love to hear from him, but I know I would be wary too. What is different *this* time than last? I'm being patient because I think it's worth it. Again, it's not MY time frame. Surprisingly, I'm not in control of the universe.
I have some painting and decluttering to do. I arranged for a couple of realtors to come in 3 weeks and I'm excited about getting this house on the market (Finally!) One more thing done off my list! Onward!
Does it count as a GAL if yesterday I spent my free time at The Container Store talking with the workers about my favorite subject - organizing for a couple of hours? The one lady I met really seemed excited to talk to me for just over an hour, and was getting ideas from me about her own home, and how she was going to put some of my ideas to use at her own house, and she WORKS there.
She wants me to come back and talk to her more. It made me feel really good, like I was a useful person to someone (and NO she wasn't trying to get me to buy anything, I already did a good job of that on my own!)
Dang it, I need to write these in notepad before I post! Today's song I woke up with playing in my head was Chumbawamba - Tubthumping.
"We'll be singing, When we're winning
We'll be singing.
(I get knocked down
But I get up again
You're never going to keep me down)x 3
"
and
The Killers - Bling (Confession of a King):
When I offer you survival,
You say it's hard enough to live,
Don't tell me that it's over,
Stand up,
Poor and tired,
But more than this
How do you know that you're right?
If you're not nervous anymore,
It's not so bad, it's not so bad
Okay enough procrastinating, I gotta GAL
Sounds as if you are doing better about not pursuing. Keep that light right on you. I think I told you before, the people I know that saved their marriages, focused on themselves and really dropped the rope as far as their stbx's were concerned. The spouses must have felt it somehow and they started coming back.
kat