Time for a new thread. Here's the link to the last one.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2229137#Post2229137. W is getting ready for another trip back to our old home. The reson is that she is going to help her friend/ boss with some work they have going on in a couple weeks. Just her this time. I stay here with the kids. I will enjoy the time with just me and the kids, I always do.
Still hurts to see her constantly going away. I know I will be ok regardless. I also know that doesn't make the pain disappear. I just know I will live through it to something better.
Hmmm.
I noticed last night on the desk where we keep the bills that W left her CC bill there with enough cash to make the minimum payment. This may be mind-reading but it had to be difficult for my W to leave that bill there for me to handle as it shows very clearly how much money she has spent on her cc. I can only imagine she feels very exposed by showing it to me.
The weird thing I don't understand is why she gives it to me to pay in the first place. She has full access to our joint checking account and she has even opened up her own account. She could just take care of it and pay the bill herself. I just don't understand why she leaves the cash there for me to handle???
She didn't mention it at all last night. She just left it there. I can only assume she expects me to see it and take care of it. For some reason I decided not to. If she wants me to do something, then she will need to actually tell me. Is that spiteful of me? Not sure. Part of me does not want to assume what she wants me to do so I left it there. But there is part of it that feels like, "gee, you were big enough to decide to use the cc that much, you certainly can handle putting the payment in the mail, as well...."
Another Al Anon meeting tonight. I plan on attending. Its helpful but I've not really felt much connection to the people in the group. They are all very nice and I appreciate what they are doing and how they are handling themselves, but for some reason I'm not connecting. Maybe its because they are all focused on alcoholism where that is not my sitch.
Grownups pay their own credit cards.
Children leave it for their parents to do it for them.
What do you think?
Try a different meeting. AlAnon shouldn't be focused on alcoholism but rather the challenges of those attending the meeting.
Maybe this is the opportunity you've been looking for to bring up the credit card and then move into the bigger picture of the budget.
CES - I bum out reading your sitch because it sounds so familiar. I watched my M pull apart in slow motion just like you and literally could not believe i was seeing it for the longest time.
I kept repeating to myself that I deserve to have a life, that the creator wants us all to be fulfilled/happy and express our purpose here on earth. Somehow over time I was able to see my W from a distance, and see the horrible sitch SHE was in. I also learned that she has this path called out for her, and I have mine. Over time it became less intimidating.
I grew to understand that they (WAS) are going to lie continually, play evasion games, project all guilt onto you and make it all your fault, have no problems with double standards, etc. I just kept praying every day and telling myself that I didn't cause this, I didn't fail, that there is something great on the other side of this.
Over time the truth came out that was hidden behind my W's rage and crisis. It became more about what I could do to help her, all the while coming to terms with a new life, and finally accepting and feeling really good about it.
I dont know what it is but you do eventually find a quiet strength and the unknown future becomes quite exciting. And when yu look at the WAS you feel a sadness thatb they are so troubled, yet you will have enough back in your own tank to think of how you can help them, all the while moving into a new life. It does work. One thing I found for sure that making excuses for their bad behavior as a means of keeping the road home open does not work. You just have to accept what crappy things they did, but you will find it doesn;t make you feel small anymore. You star to feel great, like you wethered the worst beating on earth and can walk away from it knowing you can handle anything in the heart department going forward. It's an incredbily freeing feeling.
Sorry about the friggin typos..I hit submit too early!
Hey Cadet, - I agree with what you said, just don't think I'll present it that way to my W. But I feel the same way. I'm just leaving the bill and the money right where it is. If she brings it up, then we'll talk about it.
Hey Bug, I went to the same meeting last night. If I look at it more objectively they really haven't dealt with alcoholism and they really are focusing on their own issues of dealing with life. There are a couple things that I'm working through with the group. First, I am VERY MUCH the youngest there. One one hand, it makes it hard to connect but on the other, there is a collection of wisdom that I can tap into. Second, I struggle with the way some of the concepts are presented. Maybe its just the wording but sometimes it feels like "oh well, that's just the way it is and I'll just muddle through and mope..."
I know I struggle with letting go vs. the desire to make something happen. I struggle with this a lot. I'm working through a 3rd option of letting go but stating my feelings (back to your "I" statements). I've been thinking recently that this is the missing piece. My W and I talk very little and its because I have not pursued any R talk. As a result, I am holding in my own feelings and emotions and I think this is where I feel I'm about to bust.
I mentioned in the end of my last thread that my new IC asked me to read a couple new books. These books, so far, seem to focus on recognizing negative triggers in conversations, how they are tied to emotions, and then how to adjust the conversation to my own feelings rather than a negative dialogue that is unproductive.
Rick - Thanks for the support, as always. I think early on, I really did own the "fault" of my sitch and probably too much. I reached a point a while back that while I have my things to deal with, this is not all me. I'm at a point in this ride where my emotions are bent towards resentment. I don't like feeling this way at all. I want to turn it to compassion and personal strength. I think in the past I've reached this point by burying my own feelings rather than deal with them (not sure yet). If this is the case, then I think this is why the resentment keeps coming back. So its back to the point of having to express my feelings and how to do it. The "nice guy" behaviors of mine is really looking for the "right" way to do this.
I know I will get through this. The journey just gets weary sometimes as you well know. This is one of those times for me. I also know that what I am doing is not working and I need to do something different. So for now I'll work with this new IC and see if I can come up with some options. This will take a few weeks but all things considered in my sitch, a few weeks isn't much.
Rick, very glad you are feeling more free, I know the price of getting to this point was a very costly one for you. Very glad you've got your kids around and that you see so many other blessings in your life.
Hey Cadet, - I agree with what you said, just don't think I'll present it that way to my W. But I feel the same way. I'm just leaving the bill and the money right where it is. If she brings it up, then we'll talk about it.
I think you are handling it correctly.
Good job, DO not FIX.
Thanks Cadet,
W finally mentioned it tonight. First she told me to leave the laundry she is doing alone because I dried something that wasn't suppose to be ( it was hand towels, socks and some underwear????)
Then she told me she left the cash there for me to pay the bill and it was due tomorrow. I just looked at her calmly and said ok, you can do that too.
W: no I can't. You took that away from me.
Me: no, you have full access to the joint account. You have a debit card and the checks are where they always are. The account is already set up with the online bill pay. You just need to put the money in the account.
W: well, I never look at that account. How should I know?
Me: well, you choose to take the money out of it every paycheck for yourself.
And that was the end of the conversation. I think my last line was a little testy but she knows she has full access to the account and has all our banking passwords to even see my account even thou her name is not on it. I stayed calm but now it's starting to irritate me. Oh well. It will pass and she can handle her own bills.
you did well there ces - she was testing you - to see if she could push you into getting mad but you stayed calm. good for you.
as you know, i don't feel as if i'm in any position to give advice to anyone right now, but i can "remind" take a deep breathe and let it go and focus on what you did right. that is, you waited for the right moment to deal with it and dealt with it really well
(hmmm, i'll keep that in mind for myself - that's damn good advice)
stay well
zig
Thanks Cadet,
W finally mentioned it tonight. First she told me to leave the laundry she is doing alone because I dried something that wasn't suppose to be ( it was hand towels, socks and some underwear????)
Then she told me she left the cash there for me to pay the bill and it was due tomorrow. I just looked at her calmly and said ok, you can do that too.
W: no I can't. You took that away from me.
Me: no, you have full access to the joint account. You have a debit card and the checks are where they always are. The account is already set up with the online bill pay. You just need to put the money in the account.
W: well, I never look at that account. How should I know?
Me: well, you choose to take the money out of it every paycheck for yourself.
And that was the end of the conversation. I think my last line was a little testy but she knows she has full access to the account and has all our banking passwords to even see my account even thou her name is not on it. I stayed calm but now it's starting to irritate me. Oh well. It will pass and she can handle her own bills.
She wants the access but not the accountability. Good for you for holding your ground. I think this is part of you regaining your spirit and showing some intestinal fortitude. And don't think she didn't notice!
Oh ces, these things are so difficult but so necessary.
Whatever you feel is OK, as long as you don;t act from that irritated, angry, hurt, whatever place.
Thanks all. I'm feeling a really strong pull to talk about a few things with w. when she took this job, it was my understanding (expectation?) that it was to help the family financial issues. Instead, she has used all the money for herself along with some shopping for the kids clothes. In addition to this she has run yet another credit card nearly to the max.
I see this job is simply an excuse to go back to our former home and spend time with friends and possibly OM. Her activities have created yet more debt beyond what she is making. This job is damaging our family finances and pulling us further apart.
I've been telling myself not to say anything, that I can have no expectations of w. that blaming won't help. And these things are true. But does that mean I have to stand by and say nothing when actions are impacting my family?
I am too close to my own sitch and i have blind spots that I am creating for myself. I've been around this loop of "say something-don't say something" for too long. I am not at peace by not saying anything. But my fear is how I will handle myself if I do say something. ( hate that word- fear)
On Thursday, w leaves again for 10 days to be with her friends and "work" as they clear out their inventory and work a show. Will love the time with the kids but this constant "going away" is just getting to me.
Whaddup Ces!!
As painful as it was when my w & I seperated our finances I think it has been beneficial in that its one less thing I need to worry about. Granted we don't live together but we do have 3 kids and share some expenses.
It used to bother me that she would buy things or go on mini vacations and then complain about not having any money but at this point I have let that go and she can do what she wants with her money and manage her finances however she pleases.
I'm not saying you should propose this at this time but if it ever comes to it try to look at the positives.
In any event it sounds like your resentment is going to continue to build if nothing is said, do you agree? What do you think that will lead to? I used to (and probably still do) be scared of bringing up these sort of topics w/ my w as it seems you are as well with a few things.
I found that facing these fears head on and confronting the situation was a catalyst for growth and improvement and also found that it usually was not as big of a deal as I made it out to be in my head. What are you fearful of?
Her activities have created yet more debt beyond what she is making. This job is damaging our family finances and pulling us further apart.
I've been telling myself not to say anything, that I can have no expectations of w. that blaming won't help. And these things are true. But does that mean I have to stand by and say nothing when actions are impacting my family?
I am too close to my own sitch and i have blind spots that I am creating for myself. I've been around this loop of "say something-don't say something" for too long. I am not at peace by not saying anything. But my fear is how I will handle myself if I do say something. ( hate that word- fear)
Here's my take, CES. When you talk about expectations, I think that that really has more to do with the relationship and moves toward a reconciliation. I don't think it should apply to basic boundaries especially as it pertains to the financial well being of your family.
If there is an understanding between you and your W as it pertains to finances and she is violating that understanding, then I think it is your responsibility to call her out on it. You can't continually operate in fear for how she would react. You become me egg shell man and really how attractive do you think that is, one and two how does that really make you feel. I'd say probably pretty sh!tty.
You need to start setting and enforcing those boundaries otherwise you are going to get deeper and deeper into the muck of an unfulfilling life and R.
You are coming up on the 2 year mark since the bomb. How much longer are you going to continue to live life shackled to your fears?
Journal stuff:
Nothing major this evening. I picked up pizza and snacks on the way home as both kids have friends spending the night. We are all home this evening. Kids are occupied with their friends. W is in the other room watching TV on the computer and I'm in the next room paying the bills and working out a budget plan.
We have talked a bit. W told me she saw an item on the news this week about a company doing model search for 30 or older people and she's going to try it. She's contacted my neice to do some pics of her while she is back in our former home in a couple weeks. She said she didn't want my family or hers to know unless it turned into something. I made a point to be encouraging and told her it sounded fun.
Inside I'm thinking that I hope she doesn't get it because it will be yet another thing to occupy her attention and distract her from our marriage. I'm guessing that's selfish of me but I'm certain that is not how I came across to her.
We talked some more about paint colors and how we are finishing up the painting of our first floor once our tax return comes in (we are paying off stuff too).
Part of me wants to "not rock the boat" when we have somewhat normal interactions like this. But maybe this is the time to open up a dialogue of some sort. I won't do it tonight with the kids having friends over, just in case things go south. Not a good experience for the kids.
Here's what I want to talk about:
- W's new job is adding no value to the family. What she is making is not contributed to the family and she has again run up another credit card balance which is far more than she's made.
- Not sure how to say this but I hate the fact that W is going back to her friend (OM's wife) and staying there for 10 days without the kids. Maybe nothing going on between them now but it just feels wrong and I want to let her know how it makes me feel.
ces, every time I read your subject line 'turn the page' I hear Bob Seger:
But your thoughts will soon be wandering
The way they always do
When you're ridin' sixteen hours
And there's nothin' much to do
And you don't feel much like ridin',
You just wish the trip was through
As we sometimes wish this trip was through...
You pegged it LB! That's exactly where it came from. One of my favorite songs. Maybe my next thread can be "Like a Rock"
Morning all,
I'm gearing up for a conversation with my W tonight. In the spirit of not following cheeseless tunnels, my "back off and give space" approach over the last few months has left life in limbo. Something needs to happen. Maybe its for my own sanity but I truly feel that a conversation is needed for my M to move to a better place.
I've been going over in my head how to approach this and feel I've got a way that I'm confident in. I can't say "comfortable" because nothing about this is comfortable. But I'm confident my approach that deals with my feelings, an effort to be compassionate but also establishing my boundaries of what is and is not acceptable in a marriage.
I hope no one takes offense but I'm not planning on posting my ideas here before hand. Truth is you've all given me plenty of thoughts & suggestions thus far and I've just sat on them. If I post again, I'm afraid I'll get into a consensus situation and it will stall me again. I'm honestly concerned that I'll bail on the conversation again tonight. We'll see.
S went to bed not feeling the best. I'm sure my W will use it as a reason to keep him home and stay home herself from church. The pattern is so amazingly predictable. I checked on S13 at bedtime and he was not running a fever so we'll see. I'm about to go get them up.
I'll be thinking of you, ces! You have really come such a long way in this process, you will do fine.
Hi all. Well, I finally took the plunge and spoke to my W about a few of the issues that have been bothering me. I’ve tried to just do bullet points of the topics but this is still really long…
MY POINTS:
Wish she wasn’t going on another trip
Explained my purpose for going to Al Anon was to deal with my bitterness & anger towards her.
Explained that my assumption on her job was to help our family’s finances and it isn’t happening.
Told her the money was an irritation but not the true cause of my bitterness
Explained that each time she went away, I dealt with my own feelings of being discarded and abandoned by her.
Explained my view of how we use to be connected so her travels were not an issue as we continued to talk. Explained how that is all gone and there is no security left in our R for me and so the feelings of abandonment have taken the place of security.
Explained with all this, I still have concerns about her relationship with OM.
I pointed out the t-shirt that went away when OMs wife was in town
I indicated the picture of OM in the collage frame
I told her about the picture of her and OM on the computer
W RESPONSES:
W said her friend, not OM, gave her the t-shirt
W said she does not remember putting the t-shirt away while her friend was in town
W said our D10 picked out the picture for the frame because it had her and some of her friends in the picture
W said the picture on the computer was the same one I had found printed off last October and she didn’t know it was still on there. She deleted it.
I mentioned she had explained her R with OM before as an infatuation, but that it appeared to be more 2-way. W said they had only ever flirted and nothing happened and there is nothing going on between them at all.
W TALKED ABOUT THE FOLLOWING:
W is still made at me for trying to work things out now rather than sooner.
W said she had tried to tell me her struggles for a long time.
W said I checked out after the kids were born and that we’ve not been a team for 13 years.
W said I only worry about money
W said she hates it in our new home
W said I control all aspects of her life (supporting her feeling of being “trapped”)
W also said she was getting daily “marriage” related e-mails and has been reading them but when I come home each day she can’t bring herself to try.
MY OTHER COMMENTS:
Said I was sorry that she didn’t see us as a team but I don’t remember it that way completely
Said the kids were not distant from me and knew that I loved them very much.
I acknowledged that she has tried to tell me her feelings and that in many ways I did withdraw from her and possibly the kids. I confessed that this was wrong of me completely, and that I didn’t know how to have the conversations we needed to have.
Explained that I felt like a failure as many of the interactions from her indicated that I couldn’t get anything right and so why keep trying…
I agreed that the money issues stress me out and that I’m suppose to provide for my family and I’ve let us get into too much debt.
Reminded W that she is the one who told me that she wanted me to have a job I believed in and felt good about and that she had wanted to move away so I thought I had her support when we moved to our new home.
W said she thought she could do it or “bury her own needs again and pretend”.
I responded that no one had asked her to lie or pretend about what she felt.
I told W that I have offered multiple times to try and work together on our finances and other things but she has refused.
I mentioned how I have not interferred in her travels at all and that I have worked to give her space to do what she wanted with whom she wanted.
The conversation started wrapping up at this point. I said we were both miserable and we needed to do something different. W asked what it was that I wanted. I said again that I wanted to work together. I wanted to go back to counseling and find a way to live better with each other. I commented on the fact that we are both getting marriage e-mails and reading stuff but not talking or dealing with each other so it’s not working.
We left it at that. No idea what, if anything, will come of the conversation. In some ways I feel better to at least have had a conversation. In other ways, nothing has changed. I do feel somewhat better about what W’s R is with OM and how her friendship with OM’s wife supports what she told me last night.
My biggest frustration goes back to my own desires or expectations. It seems my W refuses to see her part in our issues. It feels all blame is placed on my shoulders and until circumstances fall into her picture of what life should be like, she will not be happy or give our M a chance. This is where I need to let go somehow.
Another point of the conversation that came up has to do with my W’s view of my job and the difference of how I acted at home. But this is more than enough for now so I’ll add those comments in later. Off to my day. Thanks for reading…
I'm glad you were able to have this talk C, I could feel the need building inside of you and it seems that you handled it well.
You were able to obtain some valuable information so I would advise you to process what she has said, validate it in your own right, and see if their are things that you can work on that will improve you as a person and hopefully your m as a by product.
I would also allow her to process your talk and see if she comes to you w/ any follow up. Not sure how long you are comfortable waiting? I would suggest trying to end any future talks with some sort of next step, no matter how small. Ex: I appreciate you sharing your feelings w/ me and I'm glad we are able to communicate about these things. How about we take a few days to process what was said and how we feel and touch base Friday?
That's a lot!
Maybe you need a f/u plan. Don't allow this to drop.
But I might pick one topic for the next discussion.
Thanks SAIS and Bug. This is actually a repeat of things she has already told me. I have been working on these things and in the past she has even acknowledged it but it still makes her mad.
I have definitely learned how my withdrawal has impacted my w and our M. I have confessed this and actively worked on it. The part that frustrates me and I need to let go of is that my W will not see how she contributed. My withdrawal, while wrong, was a response to the criticism and judgement I received so often. I could not get things right or do them well enough to please my W. after so many years, I just pulled back to avoid as a defense. I also see where the pattern came from. I used it growing up to avoid my mom's anger and in school to avoid being bullied. Obviously this didn't work in my M but the behaviors had been set without me realizing it.
A few other points my w made:
Said I was always seen as so great and capable at work and was frustrated at how I was not that way at home.
W said now everyone sees our issues as her fault instead of seeing how I contributed to our issues
W said she has lost friends because they can't handle who she has become.
For these points I just listened but after thinking it over here are my thoughts.
I was good at work because I was respected and given positive encouragement for what I could do. At home my failures and mistakes were highlighted.
I did tell my W that I have told my family that I have contributed to our issues and will continue to own my part.
As far as friends, W cannot see how she treated her friends who tried help her and that she pushed them away with her behaviors. Her closest friend even confided in me how my W had made fun of her in the presence of her new friends saying how she actually still liked her husband.
Obviously I am still a little irritated but just venting here. Interactions with W have been no different this evening. In the past W has spent the day in bed after a discussion like last night. Maybe the fact that she did not do that today is a sign I handled myself better??
We should have an opportunity to follow up on some of our discussion when the tax refund comes in. We shall see.
Ces I sound a bit like your W and u a bit like my W. Mach asked this of me a few months back. Are u an introvert or extrovert? Is your W an introvert or extrovert? I have what he wrote to me on my work pc. Will post it tomorrow if interested remind me k buddy.
Thanks Rick, I am an introvert. My W use to be an introvert but says that she became that way due to the abusive home she grew up in. I would say she is more extroverted now. She always wants to be with people, well certain people anyway. It's at the point now that it's kind of overkill.
Our MC even said she is acting like a 20-something who is trying to stake their own personality, just 20 years later than normal
I have to post what I got for u. It may help you understand things a bit better. So u shut down when she got loud or criticized? My W did the same. When u did did she get angry and demanded an answer? Sorry just questions.
It was a cycle I see now. She would complain, criticize and I would pull away. This would just upset her as well which would make me want to pull away more. No idea who started the cycle but we both fed it.
Just a couplefew things, CES...
First, glad you had the conversation... sounded good...
Now that you've put your stuff out there, are you ready to let it go? I mean forever and for good?
I found the interaction quite interesting...
It read like there were some typical mars / venus patterns, going on there...
You couldn't make her happy, so you withdrew... which made her more unhappy, so you withdrew further... focused on your work to feel significant...
OTOH, your W just wanted you to be there for you... to sit and listen to her and validate her and help her feel better about herself... to really connect... but since you saw it as complaints, you withdrew... even though while the complaints were directed at you and stung... they were just a way for her to vent... and maybe all she was saying was, "please pay attention to me... show me you want to be with me by not running away..." but you did... so she lost that connection with you... and therefore stopped loving you...
Does this sound reasonably accurate?
If so...
what might you do different...?
Cause her question about what you wanted... sounded to me like she was trying to connect with you... a test if you will... to see that you still at least SAY you want to be with her... and maybe, just maybe... that will be followed up with actions...
and when you show those actions and she tells you that it is too little, or too late... that she's just still testing you to see if you will just run away again...
Just thinking out loud about your sitch...
KD, I came to the same conclusion and with some other books recommendedby my new IC, I was able to get a more clear picture of this pattern. now I just need to change more behaviors. This recognition is what sparked me to initiate the conversation in the first place.
I think my basic next steps are to find some armor plated skin, make conversation and take the hits as they come...in my head I know her comments don't define me but it still hurts. She is actively shutting me out and my defense mechanisms are telling me to abort. I also know this is what got me to this point ( along with some negative issues from my W that I will no longer own as my own).
One thing my W also said during our conversation is. "I'm still here" . At the time I shrugged it off internally with frustration that she exists in the same house but that's it. She is not here with me. Back to the patience thing. Consistency is what I will continue to bring...( with some setbacks because I am human after all)
Hey CES! Interesting to read about your conversation with your W. Hopefully it is a step towards improved communication between the two of you. It is good to see you building your confidence which I think was necessary for you to find a way out of the limbo you are in.
What do you make of the "I'm still here" comment?
Yes, good stuff...
If you are detached enough... and that too will become better with practice, so get to practising...
then do what works... and it is likely that some of the stuff that you will be doing will be 180s... if you weren't manning up, then that would be a 180... if you weren't "there for her", then it's a 180...
Do... observe... adjust... do...
Make sure you've got your nut guard on... lol...
I agree and it would seem to me that her saying she's "still here" does appear to be a test... I don't think you need to be in LRT, considering the conversation and some of her comments...
I'll be interested in hearing what the results are...
so, no expectations... and I can only say that what ever you do... if it works... be prepared to keep doing it and make it part of who you are... give to her because you want to... not because you will always, or ever, get back...
My skin is certainly thicker than it use to be. At the beginning of our conversation, I caught my voice wavering just a bit and then said a quiet prayer and pulled it together to stay calm & confident.
Yeah, LRT is not where we're at. She is here, as she said. She is engaged with the kids, which is good. The main piece now is how to rebuild trust. That will come from my consistent actions and doing what I think is best for our M and our family regardless of how she reacts.
My balancing act now is around creating a safe place for her to interact with me while managing boundaries so her irresponsible behavior does not impact the family.
What do you make of the "I'm still here" comment?
Hey 2TP, in regard to the above question, I'm treading lightly on the "mind-reading" but here's how I take it:
-She is still present (physically) in our home.
-She still wears her wedding rings
-She is still engaged and active with the kids
-And I think this is all she's willing to offer at this point.
Also, here is what I see implied by her behaviors:
-She will not engage in significant conversation with me
-She will not work to heal our M
-She will continue live a separate life that excludes me
-She will continue to place her friendships above our M.
And these are all on her. I have no control over this. On Sunday night she asked what I wanted and I told her clearly. "I want us to work on our M. I want us to go back to counseling". I have no expectations that she will agree to any of this. But I said what I wanted.
W leaves in the morning for another trip. Will be gone about 12 days. I will LOVE the time with my kids without the stress of our sitch. We'll have fun.
Hey CES - from my interpretation of her comment, I think you've got it about right. She seems to be saying, "look, I've not walked out on the family so don't look a gift horse in the mouth." It is a selfish position to be sure.
So you told her what you wanted, but I don't recall, did you ask her what she wanted?
A few other points my w made:
Said I was always seen as so great and capable at work and was frustrated at how I was not that way at home.
W said now everyone sees our issues as her fault instead of seeing how I contributed to our issues
W said she has lost friends because they can't handle who she has become.
In this exchange ^^^ did you try to validate her comments? Perhaps by saying something like, "Wife I can see how that can be frustrating if you perceive me not being as capable at home as I am at work. Tell me more about that." Or, "I can only imagine what it is like to lose friends. It must make you feel lonely."
I know it can't feel good for you to have your W at home and present in all matters except the M. But, where ever there is a possibility to create additional dialogue, you should probably try to take advantage of it.
I seem to remember you saying some time back that you and your W/family never went on vacations. Do I have that right? If so, have you thought about maybe planning a summer vacation with your W and the kids? That would be a great way of bringing the family together connecting while doing something fun and memorable.
Just a thought.
Is this what you were asking for Ces?
Ahhh....
Since we have been talking about communication styles, and triggers for you that leave you in a reactive state ( and not very good at it BTW )
My x was an extrovert, very outgoing ( Italian, you know what I mean ). Over the years, I had patterned myself to dealing with myself in terms of communicating with her. I am somewhat an introvert . So the only way I really ever expressed myself, or interpreted myself in the relationship, was what I knew.
I dealt with her like she was an introvert, because that is the way I communicated. I didn't understand the difference in the two. Hell, maybe I would go as far as saying that I didn't know there was a different way.
When we would talk, HER answers were right there. I missed a LOT of them though, because I expected her to communicate with me on my terms. That led to a LOT of unfulfilled conversations from me. It led to frustrations because it was not the way I communicated. My frustration would lead to anger, much the same way you have described.
My partner now, is an introvert. And what I learned (the hard way ) , was the difference between the two communications styles. It wasn't until I met her, that it even occurred to me.
I would ask a question on my time, and expect an answer on my time.
What I learned was, that with communication with an introvert. (especially if you are an extrovert). We can ask questions on our time, although the answers come on their time. Sometimes I wait for days for an answer.
What I was doing with her was....I was asking these questions, and she would feel "pushed" for an answer, because she wasn't ready. And in time, she would feel over run, because the questions would stack up in her brain. One after another, before she could answer the first one....
This also led to some very frustrating times, until I learned to ask one thing...then wait for the answer. I pour a tall glass of STFU, until her answers come to her.
What this did, was allow me to step back, and relieve a lot of frustration on my end, because I was eliminating my expectations.
I removed MY triggers for frustration turning towards anger at her....by simply recognizing and removing those expectations.
Just something to think about.....
2TP - I did not validate at that time in the conversation but will use that as an opportunity to create more dialogue. I have a tendancy to want to express why I did something or acted a certain way and I need to let that go and just validate how it made her feel.
I don't think the vacation comment was me. W is planning another extended trip away this summer with the kids. I'm debating on if I will join them for any of this. I do need to go spend time with my family who live in the same area. I just do not want to have to spend any time with my W's friends up there.
Rick - Thanks. I'll look over this. Not sure how our communciation styles are same/different at this point. In many ways, my W is extroverted more now than ever but also, I see her own tendancy to withdraw from conflict as well. So both of us doing that has NOT been helpful.
I see how my pattern of response can be frustrating for my W by what you posted. It takes me a while to process my feelings and reaction so I may have to come back to her a day or 2 later to explain or share something because it takes me that long to figure it out. W always seems ready at any moment to state her point, or argue and issue and it throws me off to where I don't know how to respond.
Sounds like H and I ces! That info may be really helpful to you. I always saw it as H shutting down or not wanting to share.
Ces that is what happened to us many times. I would ask W a question and I don't mean a life or death question but what color are we painting the kitchen. I would get a blank stare and a dunno or nothing. Really drove me nuts wished I had known the above.
Ces, just caught up on your sitch. I'm so happy you finally opened the flood gates and let some of that pressure out.
I pray that you have blown the doors open for communication to start flowing in your household.
"I'm still here." Take advantage of that.
Thanks AT, the additional communication will have to wait at this point. W leaves in the morning and will be gone 12 days. I hate how I feel as she leaves. I've felt angry all night. Texted her earlier in the day and she never replied. Tried calling her when I got home because she was out with D10. Had to call 3 times before she answered.
I'll be better when it's just me and the kids.
And she's off....
W is getting the kids off to school and then leaving. I let her know in our conversation on Sunday how this makes me feel. Didn't expect it to change anything and it hasn't. Still hurts though.
I also noticed I reverted to my self-defense pattern of withdrawal. Started off OK last night. W was on the phone with a friend. Since W is gone, I will be going into work later than normal to get the kids to school. Easy adjustment. Part of that is I drop D10 at a friends house so they can walk to school together. Done this before. Turns out this friend can't be there for 2 days next week so W is on the phone with someone else arranging this.
For some reason this irritates me. I can go in later. I can adjust my schedule but W won't even bother to ask me or discuss. She just makes the arrangements without even talking to me. After she is off the phone I explain that I can adjust my schedule those 2 days and I would prefer she talk to me about these things.
W said she was only doing what she always does and that I had already adjusted my schedule to go in later as it is. I thanked her for that but also let her know that I would appreciate her talking to me and involving me in the plans instead of just assuming.
I did my normal good night routine with the kids and went to bed. I didn't bother to say anything to my W as she busied herself with final packing. W never bothered to say good night or good bye. And so I go back to my self-defense mode. I'm tired of the being discarded & rejected so I pull away from the hurt. No good bye note, no words. Just going about my life.... No idea when the next time will be that we talk.
After she is off the phone I explain that I can adjust my schedule those 2 days and I would prefer she talk to me about these things.
W said she was only doing what she always does and that I had already adjusted my schedule to go in later as it is. I thanked her for that but also let her know that I would appreciate her talking to me and involving me in the plans instead of just assuming.
Tough times for sure CES, sorry. Hopefully the time away will help in some form.
That would irritate me as well and I'm glad you addressed it with her and think you handled it well.
I have had a few similar occurances w/ my w where she will assume something based on past experience and when I would address it she would also say something like well that's how we've always done it or you never cared about it before.
I think I said something along the lines of well I have made a lot of changes and I would appreciate it if we can try to communicate better regarding these things.
Anyhow, if taking your D to school is important to you as it is to me then make it happen.
I agree with sais that you appear to have done well during that.
Also, like you my W still does things regarding the children like your W did, making arrangements without asking. As though I don't exist or my opinion did not count. That would upset me.
Two sides to that story, of course. She really should understand that there are two parents, so parents should be first in accommodating the children. Extended family or friends should be a distant second, only if necessary.
Of course on the other side of that, the reality is that in some instances, especially simple things that need quick resolution, it is sometimes appropriate for one parent to make a quick decision that resolves an issue. It might be things like morning arrangements or in the event of medical distress while with one parent or a tantrum the child is having over what to have for breakfast.
Because there will be points in time when you make a decision in a moment that seems rather silly to discuss with your W, and you will be chastised for it.
Either a SA or a parental plan can help sort out a lot of those types of things.
I think I've read that the number one thing parents will argue about is different parenting styles or things about the kids... the second is financial...
Your W is asking for space? Then having to ask you every time she needs to make a decision about the kids will likely feel either controlling or pursuing by you.
I'd recommend get something down on paper...
As we've heard here when it comes to things that might otherwise appear to be petty arguments...
Is that a hill you want to die on?
Oh, and can't remember where I read this... I'm pretty sure this was posted on someone's thread on this forum...
Something about how one parent would make a decision without involving the other parent and then the other parent would come along and change the decision without letting the first parent know.
Apparently there is a psychological name for this type of behaviour...
If you want your W to respect and include you in decision making processes... lead by example... so if you want to make a change on something that is important to you, such as morning school drop offs... let your W know that you would like to take care of that in the mornings and ask her if she agrees with that...
I know I'm a little late to the party... I'm catching up on my friends
This stuck out for me:
[quote=ces67] 2TP - I did not validate at that time in the conversation but will use that as an opportunity to create more dialogue. I have a tendancy to want to express why I did something or acted a certain way and I need to let that go and just validate how it made her feel.[quote]
For me, this has been the biggest lesson to learn. I never realized how often I made the conversation about *me* by giving my reasons for saying certain things. through more conversations with H and my therapist, I learned what it feels like to make the talk about *them*- whatever it was that they needed to discuss. I still find myself wanting to interject or clarify when I hear him saying something that I feel is wrong- but then I remember: the only thing that matters is *his*perspective since *he* is the one feeling this way... it then becomes my job to really listen and internalize his perspective. Only when he's done sharing, is it my turn to talk and the first thing to do is validate to that he knows I was an active listener. Once I've done this, he seems more willing to listen to my explanation or my attempts to change his perspective.
It's so important that we figure out how our spouses want to be listened to and communicate (we can only hope that they take the time to learn our preferences as well) Rick1967 brought up a good point about communicating with an introvert vs and extrovert- there are some underlying personality traits that effect everything we say and do.
Reading your story about her taking charge and making plans for you... I can appreciate your frustrations! She said that she was doing what she *always* had done- is that true? If it is true, was that b/c you were content to let her take the lead or b/c she never gave you the option to get involved?? I think you handled it very well and I hope she remembers to let you take the lead next time- especially since *you* are the one who will be here and in charge.
Ces - You know I feel your pain. H is headed out of town tonight as well. I can't help but think to myself "Is he going to see OW?" Then I stop myself and ask if he is, what can I do about it? Enjoy your time with your kids!
I also noticed I reverted to my self-defense pattern of withdrawal.
W said she was only doing what she always does and that I had already adjusted my schedule to go in later as it is. I thanked her for that but also let her know that I would appreciate her talking to me and involving me in the plans instead of just assuming.
This struck a cord with me. I do like how you went to her and explained your point of view on it. My H would never does that. Instead he holds it in, and two years later brings it up as something I did wrong. And here we are...
I'm going to post this on my thread so I don't hijack yours and expand some more.
Hey KD, W is a stay home mom so she does a lot do thing switch the kds and I have always trusted her. Still do for the most part regarding parenting. I have rarely questioned her decisions but historically she would run things past me or tell me what was going on. Since the bomb she acts more like a single parent. I do not harp on her decisions. Me speaking up like is is a rarity.
Big differences now is W hates going to church so getting the kids is a challenge. Also, I noticed my D10 drew a picture for W to take to her friend that she is staying with this trip. It was a margarita glass with a container next to it that said "margarita salt". That was a little rough for me to see from my 10 year old daughter.
Hey Ro, the quiet evening is kind of nice. Just me and the kids and we had a good evening. Hope you're enjoying your evening and not worrying too much about where your H is.
Purg, always welcome to the party whenever! My W is a planner and organizer. Things always have to be a certain way. In many ways I have let her lead when it comes to the kids because she has been so particular (and she would always let me know when it wasn't how she thought it should be).
Very interesting thing happens this evening. D10 had a volleyball game tonight. One of her good friends is on the team too. She is a neighbor and her mom is one of the few people my W spends time with since the move. While W is out of town, I take D10 to this lady's house in the morning to I can get to work. Ten D10 and her friend walk to school together.
This evening at the game this friend made a point to tell me that she was glad to do this for me and D10 and she wanted me to know that she did not agree (or support) my W working back in our former state. This was a pleasant surprise.
She also apologized about not being able to take my D10 a couple mornings next week. She mentioned that she had told my W that she and I could figure it out but that my W was adamant that she get it all organized before she left.
This lady and her husband are really nice people. I have not spent a lot of time with them but it was a good feeling to know she sees an issue with my W leaving as she does.
Got to sing to my D10 at bedtime tonight. Haven't done that in a while. I think we both enjoyed it!
A little journal time:
Good day at work. Love my new job! It's helpful to have some place in my life that feels strong. It helps roll into other things such as being a dad and standing firm in working on my M. Plenty of opportunity for improvement but at least I can see more of what I am doing and how to adjust.
D10 spent the night at a friends house. She went from school so I didnt see her but we talked. She even tested me this morning to say hi. S13 had two buddies spend the night so I hung out and watched a few movies. W never called to say good night and I didnt bother to call her. I knew she was helping her friend with work stuff at a show.
Stayed up late and slept in today. By the time I woke up, I saw that W had tried to call me. She also sent me a txt asking how the boys were and if I ever play word with friends of FB. I did not respond to either.
I got up and fixed the boys breakfast and while they were eating, W called son's phone. She even asked to speak to me and asked how things were going. She said she had tried to call me. I responded that my phone was on vibrate and in the other room. Both true. We talked for a bit and I even asked her what she had going on and she told me about the day. It was a normal conversation and I have to admit that I feel sad that a normal conversation feels so odd to me.
My mind ran a few scenarios about why she would be doing this and then I stopped myself because I recognized the mind-reading. So it's on to my day of nothing major and relaxing a bit. Hope all out there in DB land have a good weekend
and if I ever play word with friends of FB.
My STBX keeps inviting me to WwF games too... though not on FB, on our phones. I've played a few with her (along with the 20 some other games I have going on at any given time). It's funny because Scrabble was something her and I used to do all the time when we first started dating.
It seems like an opportunity to interact in a simple and fun way. I will probably take get the game and start playing.
W e- mailed me this evening. It was honest, sad and maybe an opportunity. In shrt here is what she said:
Been thinking about us a lot lately
Has been reading a lot of marriage
Can't remember any good stuff about us
Doesn't know where to even start again
Asked me to make a list of good stuff about us
Said if she can start to remember good things she could find a place to start again
Said she has changed and was sorry and would understand if I did not want to try
Said we had two wonderful kids.
I responded with the following:
Agreed about our kids
Hesitant to make list as I did not want it to seem that I was trying to make her memories for her. But I will share my own thoughts and memories
Said she didn't need to apologize if she was happy with who she has become.
Said it would take me a few days to respond.
May be the slightest of open doors but it's the most I've seen in a long time.
I see a squirrel in future!
MAKE THE LIST!!
Help her out. She needs help and is asking you for help.
Validate. Validate Validate.
Thanks 2 & BM. I will respond to her and am working on organizing my thoughts. Rather than list a bunch of memories I want to focus on feelings of connection between us. I also want to use this to express and acknowledge the impact of my tendency to withdraw.
More texts and calls from W today. My D10 has a phone we give her when we want her to have one. She has keptnitnwith her since W left on Thursday. W called me today saying our D10 had called and was sounding sad and wanted to do something since the entire week of school will be filled with state testing. We talked for a bit and agreed on what I could do. So I took the kids to the bookstore and let them both pick out a new book and we went for dinner. It was a nice night.
The talk with my W was so normal and it reminded me of times when she would work with me to take care of the kids. Her tone sounded so much like the woman I married. I thanked her for calling and telling me and for the ideas.
In an effort to keep a connection I txt "goodnight" to W. she responded and asked about the kids. Then she thanked me for taking care of them and that she knew it was a lot on top of working full time. I responded that they were no trouble and I loved the time with them. I tried to word it to show my enjoyment with the kids but not my approval of her leaving for 12 days.
Little tiny minuscule steps.....
No expectations but don't make any sudden moves.
keep validating!!
no sudden moves. Any mother would be questioning her decision.
vh
not my approval of her leaving for 12 days.
Danger, danger Will Robinson, I see a crash landing on the planet of Resentment by way of Passive-Aggressive. And you know how I know, I've taken that same trip.
You requested she not go(as I recall there was no boundary-setting) she decided to go and now she seems to be softening. Maybe.
What is your disapproval going to get you?
It's water under the bridge.
Thanks Bug, what I told her was "they are no trouble. I love the time with them". I made no reference to whether or not I agreed with her going. That was just in my mind.
I will keep a check on my resentment. I still see evidence that this job is just an excuse to go see her friends. It has no financial value to our family and is actually costing us money because she used up her cc to make the trip (and get her nails done). So rather than use the job to help with the debt her spending has brought on this family, she is using it to live a separate life, spend more money she doesn't have and then is forced to spend what money she has on her new debt rather than help her family.
And somehow, I have kept else feelings in check and encouraged interactions with her since she left. Always appreciate the mental check though. I have to deal with these things so they don't seep out in negative ways.
I made no reference to whether or not I agreed with her going. That was just in my mind.[quote]
The resentment is always 'just in my mind' but for me, it colored every interaction I had. And it will continue to grow until you deal with the issue that's causing you the anger...
this (imagine down arrow here)
[quote]I still see evidence that this job is just an excuse to go see her friends. It has no financial value to our family and is actually costing us money because she used up her cc to make the trip (and get her nails done). So rather than use the job to help with the debt her spending has brought on this family, she is using it to live a separate life, spend more money she doesn't have and then is forced to spend what money she has on her new debt rather than help her family.
Until you share this with her, she will never make the change because she thinks it's OK.
Because you always make it OK.
screwed up the html-hope you can make sense of it.
I think I got your message! : )
I did tell her these things when I spoke to her a week ago. Told her I wished she wasn't going on another trip. Explained 2 reasons. First, the job seemed to be costing us more money and it wasn't helping our family any. Also explained the feelings of being discarded each time she leaves.
She responded that she & friend are still working out the details of how my W can help remotely (its been 4 months). She also explained she had committed to helping and they needed her there (and I didn't even say anything about our marriage commitment or the families needs as a response....)
So at this point, she knows where I stand and she has reached out to me in her own way in what appears to be an effort to move forward. She is contacting me a lot during this trip which is very different from her past trips. She even called me this morning and left a vm about her morning.
I'm not going to harp on my issues but instead, acknowledge and respond positively to the behaviors she is showing to connect. I know my resentment is there. I'll express it here on the boards. I also feel that I need to even temper it here on the boards because there is a balance of letting it out to deal with these feelings vs. letting them spew out in a way that fuels the fire.
Such an emotional juggling act....
Work through your resentment until it's gone, not buried. What are the positives to W's new job? Not saying these apply but here are a few to think about besides money: confidence, fulfillment of doing something you love, potential for future higher earning, flexible hours or other advantages, opportunity to work with a friend, ability to travel, a reason to look polished and professional and the self esteem that comes with it. I could go on but I don't really know the details.
Why not figure out or ask her what things this job provides that she loves and finds fulfilling. What does your family need from her and how long can you wait for the payoff if she expects that her earnings will exceed output soon? Are you ok with that wait?
Some of this you don't have a choice but be ok with because you don't have a lot of leverage right now to make demands,
but for your sanity and to ease your resentment find the nonmonetary positives and see if you can support them. See if you can get her agreement on your concerns monetarily and set a timeframe where you revisit whether she needs to contribute more toward the debt.
Does reframing it like this help any?
Thanks Advina, the big positive for W on this job that she has said to me are the following:
1) the hours are flexible so she can still be with the kids (this is one of the reasons I supported her taking the job and said so in the beginning even thought its working for the former OM).
2) It provides her money
3) She stated recently it gives her a chance to go back to former home to see her friends on a regular basis
One of the reasons she is in contact so much this trip is because the kids are not with her. She's not use to being without them and D10 is not use to her mom not being around. W even said this to me last night. Another difference though is that she is contacting the kids through me more than contacting them directly as she has done in the past.
I will look for positives in this job as you suggested to help me keep a better frame of mind. I've stated to my W my concerns about this job and to continue to do so would be nagging. So I've dropped it.
Now to get working on that "letter" she asked for....
The flexible hours, do they replace the need for afterschool care? That's worth money. Seeing friends regularly can have mental health and general happiness benefits. If your concern is that you need her to help pay down the debt, it would be reasonable to wait a little while if there's a timeframe before her earnings will kick in. It would be reasonable to voice that as a question that she could help provide her input on so she buys into the solution rather than you nagging her with your viewpoint.
In my m, I thought I was doing great by contributing toward our household and handling all afterschool care, sick days, doctor appointments, and camp/sport scheduling. This is a job in itself. But my H saw things in dollar terms and felt that because I was earning 60% of a comparable fulltime salary, he was subsidizing me and thought negative thoughts every time I spent time on something he didn't think was worthwhile (because he was subsidizing it if it was time I was potentially earning more money). A lot of this could have been avoided if we had talked so that I could understand his viewpoint that total dollars into the household was his main measuring stick and he could understand mine, that there was nonmonetary value that was important too. We still don't see eye to eye on this but I don't think he's as unreasonable as I did before. Talking with an aim to understand is so important, versus nagging.
My W has always been a stay home mom (aside from small part-time interests of hers on occassion) and has always handled the "at home" kid stuff. We've never had to use any sort of childcare which has been great. It was a huge help in allowing me to do well in my career. I've shared this with my W and thanked her for it over the years.
W has never really wanted to work outside the home. She wants to be home with the kids. The issues are more rcent and are buried back in my previous threads but here's the short of it:
--I was out of work 15 months which lead to more cc debt than I prefer.
--Since bomb, W has spent LOTS of money on cc to travel, shop and do genernal entertainment for herself with her friends. She knew our situation but spent anyway.
--attempted to talk to her about this multiple times but she refused to talk and continued to spend on cc.
--I had to cancel her cards due to nearly maxing out 3 of them.
--W then wanted to take this job and presented it as a way to help but no funds have been used to help the family. Instead she has continued to expand her wardrobe, travel to see her friends and also has maxed out a 4th cc that is in her name.
--W has a degree to teach and even completed the paperwork to teach in our new state. But instead of looking for a job, she spent the entire summer last year out of state with the kids and made no effort to find a job(10 weeks away during the summer funded by the cc's that had to be closed)
I have asked for her assistance about 2 months after she started the job and she got upset saying she didn't really make that much. So no assistance from her was given but her wardrobe continued to grow (White House/Black Market appears to be her favorite shop)
I've supported various jobs that she has tried over the years and also her staying home with the kids, which is awesome for her, the kids and me. The issue here is that since the bomb, she has spent thousands of dollars that our family cannot afford, she has acknoweldged this, yet continues to show no accountability for helping deal with the debt she has created.
I don't see this an a measurement issue and the spending is a symptom of a deeper problem. I see this as an example of my W separating herself to live outside of our M at the expense of our family.
Oh, and did I mention when she travels for this job, she stays at her friend's house who is married to the (former) OM?
In the 4 months that she has done this job I have only talked to her about it 3times.
1) When she told me about it, I shared that I understood the benefit of flexible hours and working from home but was concerned that she would be working for OM.
2) 2 months into job I asked if she could assist with any family expenses since we were still having to use a cc for general stuff like groceries & gas between paychecks
3) Before she left last Sunday I explained my assumptions of how this job was to help our family but it was not and my feelings around her leaving so often. (this conversation has led to the recent increase in communication and her request for "good stuff".
^^^wow, that ended up longer than I expected. Sorry.
Ces, have you read the book Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend?
It might be helpful because I see your struggle with this issue.
I have read that. That's what prompted me to cancel the credit cards to protect the families finances. Its also why I have not said anything about her own cc and how she maxed it out. Our MC that we went to last year recommended we both read it.
It seems up to this point, W has decided to live her life in a way that excludes me (her right to do so if she wants). The challenge is that she has used family funds to support her individual life, thus creating financial difficulties for the family.
The challenge is that she has used family funds to support her individual life, thus creating financial difficulties for the family.
So, how can this be fixed?
How can you stop resenting her for this?
How can your marriage be restored if this continues?
any chance of getting her to talk to a financial counselor or financial advisor with you, or without you? if she's getting addicted to credit she's going to hurt the kids financially.
The challenge is that she has used family funds to support her individual life, thus creating financial difficulties for the family.
So, how can this be fixed?
How can you stop resenting her for this?
How can your marriage be restored if this continues?
Great questions, Bug. First, it's not my place to "fix" my W, not that you meant it that way, just wanted to clarify. What I have done is take ownership of the cc's that are in my name and left my W to manage her own. I still provide a set amount out of each of my paychecks for her to use. I have considered lowering this amount or stopping it. My reasoning is that she apparently had enough to travel and shop and this money is better served to help our family's financial issues. This seems controlling even to me though.
How to stop resenting is an ongoing process of detachment and protecting myself and the family from her actions. It's also the process of letting go of expectations. This is why I go to al anon and IC. I'm a work in progress on this one but I am making progress
How can it be restored? First, I need to address the issues with compassion and forgive. Also, she must decide to work with the family rather than against it on this matter. It will take both and patience.
Let me also say, my W does a lot of good things for the family as well. she is great with the kids. Her spending is her addiction in how she is avoiding her own issues. Prior to DB, I mentioned this to her but stopped trying to fix her. After the 2nd conversation about money I mentioned above is when she asked me to bring home a list of counselors and said she needed to be seeing someone for help. To my knowledge, she never went to anyone and I have not asked. Seemed like that would be nagging or pursuing,
I still love her and see the wonderful parts of her. I am just trying to deal with my disappointments and how to truly help.
any chance of getting her to talk to a financial counselor or financial advisor with you, or without you? if she's getting addicted to credit she's going to hurt the kids financially.
I have contacted a financial advisor and received an analysis. I shared this with my W. her response was that she really didn't understand it and I should do what I wanted. I have asked multiple times to work together on our finances. So far she is unwilling. So I am moving forward on my own to work with this service to arrange a budget and debt reduction plan. I will keep my W informed throughout as she is willing to listen.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean fix her but rather fix what you state is your issue, the family finances being jeopardized due to her spending.
ces, you know I have a lot of respect for you and know that you will do what works for you.
I knew that's not what you meant, Bug...just coudn't resist. : )
With the finances, I've just been working to separate our stuff unofficially. The next step is to establish. My own budget and stick to it. I will make my W aware of the budget and even give her an opportunity to give input. If she chooses to stay separate then I'll just have to manage on my own and leave her to deal with her own stuff as well. Not sure how that will look but I'll figure it out as I go along.
I think your financial action plan is great CES.
Thanks SAIS, its a start anyway....
Observation:
Yesterday, my W called me while I was in a meeting and she left me a vm. She asked about the kids and gave me an idea of her schedule in case I wanted to call her. Once I got the VM, I sent a txt about the kids and how they were doing and then never heard back from W again until I had the kids call to say "goodnight". Her tone wasn't awful but more stand-offish than the previous day.
The observation is that I believe she had an expectation for me to call and talk to her and when I sent the txt instead, there may have some disappointment. I think this is saying I need to pay more attention to her cue's and draw close (every so carefully and cautiously....)
The observation is that I believe she had an expectation for me to call and talk to her and when I sent the txt instead, there may have some disappointment. I think this is saying I need to pay more attention to her cue's and draw close (every so carefully and cautiously....)
If you believe that, then maybe it would be worth your while to call her today....just because.
Try, test, learn, adjust (repeat).
We actually spoke this morning. I got the kids off to school and my W called as I was on my way to work. This was the first morning where she didn't speak to the kids to start their day and its also the first day they didn't try to contact her (at least D10). We chatted for a few minutes and she asked how the kids did. I said they are doing great and the only challenge is that D10 moves WAY SLOW in the morning so I have to keep on her to get ready. W said she does that for her as well.
I asked about her day and we said we'd talk later. I could tell she was half-asleep at the time so no lengthly conversations. But I think its a good thing for W to see that the kids and I are doing just fine. I'll continue to keep a closer eye on the cues, such as "talk to you later".
Try, test, learn, adjust (repeat).
I'll continue to keep a closer eye on the cues, such as "talk to you later".
I agree w/ the try, test, learn, adjust, try something new, and do what works stategy but be careful not to mind read.
Who knows why your w didn't call until bedtime. She may have been dissapointed that you texted instead of calling but do you know for sure?
Another good day with the kids. Talked with my W again this evening. Caught her up on a couple things with school & the kids. No big deal except that it was conversation.
My personal accomplishment for the day is how the kids seem to be getting along just fine with W out of town. This is an especially big deal for my D10. The first few days, D10 was constantly texting my W and calling. Today she seems to be just fine. I overheard a phone conversation this evening. D10 had W on speakerphone. D10 was pre-occupied with a TV show moreso than talking (i'm use to this from business trips, not sure W is). W finally asked her to turn off the TV & talk, which D10 did.
When W asked about what we had for dinner, D10 said I had made some really good pork-chops and that I had done something "special" to them to make them really tasty! That made me feel pretty good.
Still brainstorming my response to W about her request for memoriese of our good times. I'll talk it over in my IC session tomorrow as well.
When W asked about what we had for dinner, D10 said I had made some really good pork-chops and that I had done something "special" to them to make them really tasty! That made me feel pretty good.
The special ingredient was love!
Now that made me smile, Bug! Thanks.
i agree with labug - there's a lot of love there you have , ces - it's beautiful and i'm glad to see you are keeping it safe
Thanks Zig!
Had my IC session today. My C (orignal, not the new guy) said I was over thinking my response. She asked for a list of good stuff from our past so stick to that.
Make sense to me. Filling in a lot of stuff she didn't ask for turns it into what I want it to be instead of what she asked for. So I'll get my list of my memories of good stuff and leave it at that. I plan to send it to her by Friday so she'll have teh weekend to read it over before returning home Monday.
ooohhhh.. good advice! don't over think. that is one of the things we focus on in RV. stick to what you are discussing and don't deviate to turn it into R talk etc. things H and i are currently working on.
I think most of us get caught up in overanalyzing everything regarding our sitch's. Its been a challenge for me to be aware and recognize when I'm doing this but it has gotten better w/ time.
Good Luck CES!!
Journal stuff,
Got an e-mail from one of my W's "former" good friends earlier this week. I say former because W and this lady were best of friends since we were first married almost 20 years ago. We are the god-parents of this couple's kids.
Their friendship took a big hit after the bomb because this "friend" told my W things she needed to hear vs. things she wanted to hear.
Anyway, this lady e-mailed me saying my W had sent her a txt earlier in the week asking to have lunch today. She was asking me if there were any big issues she should be aware of. My response was "not that I know of. If I had to guess, my W misses you and is trying to find a way to re-connect".
So I'm curious as to how the lunch will go. This lady cares for my W but has been hurt/insulted by my W's actions of recent. I'm making a conscious decision NOT to ask how the lunch went, but I really want to know.
W continues to call me more and chat in general stuff while she is gone. Will wrap up my e-mail tonight and send it to W by tomorrow listing my memories of good stuff. No expectations of what the list may or may not do. Just working to live my life while leaving a door open if she wants to join.
She asked for a list of good stuff from our past so stick to that.
i laughed when i read that - while i'm working on my challenges, i started to write down all the good stuff about h and also instead of dwelling on the problems during the marriage, i started to think more about the good times we had - it has helped me ALOT - because then i see h in a more positive light (which of course is hard to do in our sitches) and the real effect is that i have been able to have more positive interactions with him in the last few days
the effect is quite dramatic for me - when i am now doing this, i find that I am feeling a lot better myself, and i see many more little solutions than when i keep viewing him only through the lens of - how can he do this. so every time i find myself thinking really negatively about him, i stop and try to replace it with a positive thought about him
CES - It really sounds like there is quite a bit of rustling going on with your W. All good, I would suspect.
When you talk about listing good stuff memories, generally what are you talking about? Activities, feelings, important events in your history together, personal observations, all of the above?
Are you planning on a laundry list of items or detailing your memories in paragraph form? What about a timeline for the memories?
I'm asking these questions because while on the surface this seems like a fairly straightforward request, I'd be careful not to leave out small items in favor of the big stuff. Also, if you can come up with recent good memories, I think that would be helpful so your W doesn't feel like all the memories were before she began to feel like she needed to escape.
These are just my thoughts of course. I wish you all the best!
Hey Zig - I really got moving on the items during my lunch break today. I see it having the same effect you mention. Its brought a lot of smiles to me (and maybe a tear or 2). Even while writing it I found myself inserting humorous comments (well at least to me they're funny, hopefully my W will think so too).
2TP - Funny you should mention the small things. In looking at my memories so far, they are almost all little things. I've not even touched on the major events such as wedding, honeymoon, or birth of children. So far its all been simple things were we worked well together or just spent time with one another.
I'm trying not to organize or plan it too much but just let the good memories flow & trust in God to use the words.
it does work doesn't it, and sort of softens one towards the whole sitch. i think sometimes we keep ourselves so stiff and upright during this whole thing to protect ourselves
we are sort of mirroring the WAS when we do that, i think - before the house bomb - when h brought up for the first time in 8 months something positive about our life together - it really hit me then, that because i had been listening for so long at his vehement rants about how everything was terrible, i had let myself forget all the good stuff.
the smiles are as good as the tears - all cleansing and it's okay to have it all.
your post sounded like you are feeling good today - need to work on that for myself a bit more here
zig
Hey Zig, its definitely up and down. The good days will come again.
Its been an interesting week with W being gone. She's been in touch a lot more than normal, and friendly at that.
can't remember if I mentioned this before or not but my W saw an add on the local news for a national company who is looking for 30+ models. She decided to get some pictures and enter the contest. Very out of character for my W. But she's really excited about it. My neice went to photography school so she did a photo shoot with my W this afternoon and will be doing somee more on Saturday. I made a point to ask my W about it and she actually shared what all she did and the various outfits she took to try.
Again, almost a normal conversation. I'm just trying to look at her as a friendly acquaintance at this point so I can just share friendly conversation and not allow myself to get wrapped up in too much at this point. W said she'd send me some of the preliminary pics when my neice forwards them (of course I can also go directly to my neice who will send me any I ask for
)
Again, almost a normal conversation. I'm just trying to look at her as a friendly acquaintance at this point so I can just share friendly conversation and not allow myself to get wrapped up in too much at this point
do you find these 'normal ones really hard to take - it sounds like you don't - i'm definitely struggling with that and am working on just seeing them as "friendly neighbor" interactions. only problem is that most of them seem so loaded
isn't it weird to see the WAS' doing really out of character things? guess it gives us an inkling of how they might be dealing with our 180's!!
glad to hear that there's more contact - i realize that that's what h seems to do when he's away on his trips - even when he's with ow. so either they are missing us more, or they are just checking that we are definitely still there. who knows...
take care
zig
Well Zig, I've been in the post-bomb life for 21 months now and there are still times when casual conversation can be irritating. I'm just trying to relax more. I figure if she's trying to have a normal conversation, regardless of her purpose, its better off to enjoy it and let that comfort level increase on her side by my positive reactions.
Besides, I don't want to be a grumpy, bitter person so its good for me to focus on good stuff (like the response letter & your idea about remembering good stuff)
ces - you are a saint - and yes, better to be positive and not grumpy and bitter. you've taken the challenge and worked well with it. i hope i'm half as successful as you at being positive.
have a happy day - it looks like we are going to have tornadoes here...exciting!!
Hope you're safe. Seen plenty of tornados growing up. Not much fun but its always a funny memory of my sister pulling mattresses off the beds and taking them to sit in the tub. Meanwhile my dad and brother are at the window discussing whether or not it's really a tornado....
I finished the response to my wife of "good stuff" and sent it to her before I left work. Now I just have to forget I even sent it and enjoy my weekend.
Good job, CES! Enjoy the weekend! Next week is sure to be a doosy!
well so much for the swirling devils - not so much as a good healthy storm with lots of lightening and craziness - it gusted all day and then finally rained for 10 mins!!
i didn't realize that you were going to send the list to your wife - thought it was just for you. wow! EXPECT good things to come from that - even if you don't see evidence of it right away!!
and yes - just go have a great weekend
zig
Glad the tornados were a "no show". Love the lightning storms though!
Yep, the list was actually for my W. She asked for it. In short, she had e-mailed me saying she was thinking a lot about us and our M. Said she was at a point that she couldn't remember the "good stuff" about our M, "Nothing". She then asked me to send a list of good stuff and maybe that would help here know where to start.
So that list is sent. I avoided major events like the wedding and the birth of our kids. It wasn't really planned, just a conscious stream of thoughts that ended up being small simple things were we lived & worked together. I threw some commentary in there about my thoughts & feelings on certain things but mainly just described moments & actions from our nearly 23 years together.
Honestly, the good that came from it was I had a wonderful walk down memory lane. I can have no expectations that it will change anything with my W. The WAS has an amazing talent for re-writing history to support their own choices so I'm not going to hold my breath on this one.
The sun is shining and I have the worst lawn in the neighborhood at the moment so its off to mow and get a little sunshine!
Journal stuff:
W comes home tomorrow. She has not mentioned the e-mail of "good stuff" I sent on Friday. That's fine. I sent it with no expectations of any response. Conversations & txt messages continued over the weekend. A slight drop in volume but W had a busy schedule with her friends so that's to be expected.
Its been a great week with the kids. After church today, we grilled steaks and enjoyed lunch together. They helped me pick up the house a bit and then we baked some cookies this evening and ate them.
S13 wants to do a workcamp thing with church this summer. Turns out its the week W wants to leave to go back to our former home for her summer trip. It only overlaps a few days. I sent txt this morning telling W S13 wanted to do it because the application had to be turned in today. Her response was "i can't make that decision right now.." She was busy getting ready to go to a church service with a friend. I didn't respond and went ahead and turned in the application.
Later in the afternoon she called and apologized for the txt saying she was just in a hurry. I told her I didn't expect an answer at that moment. We talked about a few options to work it out and she was pleasant with the whole deal.
Her interactions with me over the week have been more pleasant than they have in a long time. I keep myself from mind-reading though because I truthfully don't know why that is.
She most likely won't be home until at least bedtime for the kids tomorrow. So I'll enjoy another full day of getting them off to school and fixing them dinner.
Already planned next weekend too. S13 and I are going to a movie on Friday night and D10 and I are having a date night on Saturday to see a play and have dinner.
yes ces - don't mind read - just completely enjoy the surprise of it - "how nice that she's being nice" sort of thing.
she's just responding to your niceness in some way - maybe the letter - maybe all your months and months of being the good person you are.
glad you planned next weekend too = i've noticed when i do that i have something positive to look forward to and it keeps me up.
i think you made a good decision on the application by sending it in, after her first response. it's good to go ahead and do what we want when we need to , as long as it's respectful, and let things pan out as they will.
hope you have a great week
zig