Time for a new thread.
My old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2215868&page=11Thanks to everyone for the wise advice, care and concern that was shown to me on my last thread.
Just to pick up on some of the final posts on that thread that I haven't responded to as yet:
ncl - Thanks for looking out for me like you do. It means so much, as do your constant words of encouragement.
I'm really starting to feel like I'll be OK no matter what happens with my H.
It's taken me a long time to get here, but I can definitely feel the change in my attitude. When you finally do start to detach a little, it's really a massive relief. Like a crushing weight being lifted from your shoulders...
Denver - your words have given me a great deal of comfort.
I do understand that I just have to detach now. Nothing else for it, detach and LRT. Thanks for taking the time to spell this out in such a caring and persuasive way.
I'd like to reproduce some bits of your post here because I'm sure that they'll help others too:
"Know that your H is going through emotional turmoil right now too. I don't care what he says or does, he is. This is a life transition for him too and I guarantee you that underneath all of the venom, there is a doubt. He has to work through the emotions that he is feeling before he can address the doubt.
The anger? Most likely his attempt to convince himself that he is doing the right thing and is making the right decision. See, he has to be angry in order to do what he is doing. That anger gives him strength.
My W has flat out admitted that is why she would be so hateful and mean to mean at times during this process. She had to be in order to leave and stay left. I broke that down by letting her go through her emotions, letting her alone, not responding to it, understanding, and continuing to love."
I know I need to remove myself from the equation and let him go through this process.
I also know that, as you say, things will get better no matter what happens; that time does heal. I'm in your debt for helping me through this.
NLW
25
Thank you very much for looking in. Your post was just what I needed to hear.
"prepare yourself for a happy life,[i] with or without h.
what would it look like to be without him AND yet happy? Flesh that vision out."
I'm finally in a place where I think I can envision a life without H. I'm not thinking about him and us. Just about me and the kids and what we will do, and it's starting to seem as if it's the norm for us to be 'just us'. After all, he has been gone for SEVEN MONTHS now. Time for me to move on and stop living a limboland half-life.
"you have to back way off your h. I mean WAY WAY BACK
so he thinks you believe him b/c
only then will be feel free enough to look around and see what his choices are creating.
The more you challenge his choices OR appear to be doing that with further contact/pursuit,
the more pressure/expectations he'll feel. So he'll defend the choices and stand by them, and get them MORE entrenched and solidified.
Act as if you believe him and are moving on."
And Yes, you are spot-on with my need to back WAY WAY OFF as the only way that H will believe that I believe him.
And I do, now - believe that he's gone / going to D me.
I have to.
No more of this "I just can't believe it's happening to me".
It HAS happened. I get to choose now what sort of life I want for the future.
I still have hope that he might want to change enough to re-join our family, but if he doesn't, there's nothing I can do about it.
Sad but true - and the kids and I will be OK no matter what.
My new GAL activities include volunteering at my D16's school gala fete next Friday night; going to a Parents' Quiz night fundraiser at S13's school Sat night; and attending a high school reunion (after 35 years) the Sat night after that (very scary!).
Just going to try to get out and re-connect with people after spending so much time and energy on H - and getting nothing in return.
Having said I'm ready to move on with life without my H - just a quick report of his latest doings that might make people smile a little.
He came into the house this afternoon because he'd picked the kids up from school (my L and I figure he's been told by his L to start doing this so that he has more of a claim over my assets).
Anyway, he was limping badly; in fact could barely walk.
I didn't say anything, but he was wearing shorts and I could see his knee was swollen up like a balloon.
I guess taking up football at age 42 might not have been such a good idea after all. But anyway, people have knee reconstructions all the time these days...
While H was here, I went to let our new puppy in to the house and found that a newly dead rat had been deposited on my back door mat.
I shreiked and H came out to see, as did the kids, who were horrified. Yuk, yuk, yuk!
And guess what Daddy did?
Smiled and said "See ya kids. Gotta go now." And left us to clean it up.
And I know, I can deal with this sort of thing just as well as he can, but ... it didn't do much for him in the eyes of his kids, I can tell you. They were begging him to help, but he just said "No".
Maybe his knee was too sore... or perhaps he was running late for football training!
NLW - i came across your thread this morning, when i was struggling and reading where you're at and the attitude with which you are approaching your situation gave me a lift and alot of encouragement to do the same for myself.
i am approaching the seven month mark myself and really need to move forward and envision my life on my own and begin to let H know that i truly accept what he is saying - and to read your posts and the advice you are being given helps me alot.
please know that i really admire where you're at, it's a certain kind of bravery that i'm not quite capable of yet- but am getting the first glimpses of:)
zig
Hi Zig,
Great to hear from you and to know that you're getting something from this thread that helps.
I'm humbled to think that you can detect bravery in my approach to my sitch - I certainly don't feel brave. More like a craven coward/stumbling wreck most of the time.
But anyway.... just wanted to record that today, FINALLY, I think I might just have coped with a new development in a way that indicates I am starting to grow into a different/better person.
H rang to announce that he was going away tomorrow on a trip across the country "for work".
I backslid a bit by blurting out - "But it's the weekend" (i.e. you can't do work when businesses are closed). An awkward silence ensued, but I smoothed over it by saying that suitcases were here if he needed (180 for me).
A little later I was telling my mum about his trip - complaining that he's just threatened to stop paying the mortgage again because of cash flow problems, but can afford another new set of clothes for himself (yesterday) and an expensive flight and 4 nights' accommodation.
She suggested it may be a football trip - as she'd heard that the amateur league that he now 'plays' in does this sort of thing.
I foolishly went online to try to see if a trip had been organised by his club. Basically, I was clutching at any straw that would allow me to believe that H wasn't going on a trip with OW.
Couldn't find anything so decided to look at his mate's FB page to see if anything was mentioned there.
And what did I find?
OW's evil face (and I'm not exaggerating; she looks like a wolf in the pic - and this must be the best image she has of herself!) peering out at me as a 'friend' of H's best mate.
Now I know that OW and H's mate did not know each other previously, so the only way OW could be there is via my H.
Felt sick and sobbed for all of 2 mins.
Then decided to ring her and tell her to stop breaking up my marriage and ruining the lives of my 2 kids.
And to inform her that, as a practising psychologist, she should have some ethical concerns about pursuing my H in the way she has, and that I was not going to sit by and let her do this any more (veiled threat to notify the Board and have her investigated for de-registration).
Thought about ringing her practice partners and telling them too.
And then I thought to ring MIL and tell her just what her son has been up to - she told me just last week that she'd asked him if there was anyone else and he'd said "No".
"Of course he did, MIL, your son is an inveterate liar".
But then, I told myself to take some time. Think whether any of this would do my sitch any good.
I thought of all the wise heads on this site and what they would tell me to do.
And so, I pulled back, controlled my rage and decided to LET IT GO.
I don't have to care about OW.
If H wants to be with her, so be it.
I need to be better at handling myself than I have been in the past.
I need to learn to accept what I can't control and change what I can about myself to make me a better person.
In this case, I can change by showing compassion and kindness in the face of H's crisis. If I am ever going to get to a better place, I figure this is what I need to do.
And, much to my surprise, I feel good. So much better than being angry and lashing out.
I still fantasise a little about slapping her wolfish mug, but I'm concentrating on being a better person.
NLW - I love your post!
I actually stopped using FB back in September. My last post was a Happy Birthday message to my H... But guess who else was wishing him HB? I decided that's it. No more FB for me - it's too painful to see my H and OW send each other messages and have their R paraded in cyberspace.
And that day I felt like you. I have been tempted to call her, her STBXH, my MIL, etc. But like you, I step away and think of all the people here that have adviced otherwise, and of all the cases that I have read here when that just came back to haunt the LBS. So I have not done any of it and I am proud about it.
I figure things fall on their own accord, and I am already having a very difficult time getting OW out of my thoughts to add any more fuel to the fire.
So good for you! I admire your strength and ability to let go. I definitely need to follow suit.
Time for a new thread.
My old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2215868&page=11Thanks to everyone for the wise advice, care and concern that was shown to me on my last thread.
Just to pick up on some of the final posts on that thread that I haven't responded to as yet:
ncl - Thanks for looking out for me like you do. It means so much, as do your constant words of encouragement.
I'm really starting to feel like I'll be OK no matter what happens with my H.
It's taken me a long time to get here, but I can definitely feel the change in my attitude. When you finally do start to detach a little, it's really a massive relief. Like a crushing weight being lifted from your shoulders...
Denver - your words have given me a great deal of comfort.
I do understand that I just have to detach now. Nothing else for it, detach and LRT. Thanks for taking the time to spell this out in such a caring and persuasive way.
I'd like to reproduce some bits of your post here because I'm sure that they'll help others too:
"Know that your H is going through emotional turmoil right now too. I don't care what he says or does, he is. This is a life transition for him too and I guarantee you that underneath all of the venom, there is a doubt. He has to work through the emotions that he is feeling before he can address the doubt.
The anger? Most likely his attempt to convince himself that he is doing the right thing and is making the right decision. See, he has to be angry in order to do what he is doing. That anger gives him strength.
My W has flat out admitted that is why she would be so hateful and mean to mean at times during this process. She had to be in order to leave and stay left. I broke that down by letting her go through her emotions, letting her alone, not responding to it, understanding, and continuing to love."
I know I need to remove myself from the equation and let him go through this process.
I also know that, as you say, things will get better no matter what happens; that time does heal. I'm in your debt for helping me through this.
NLW
You owe ME nothing NLW. I owe this board more than I can explain in words. We pay it forward. Someday you will too I'm sure. Hang in there. You are doing fine.
Denver
Something that's on my mind at the moment that I can't throw off.
ncl - you out there? Cause I know you've been through this issue yourself.
How does a WAS get past the shame of what they've done in having an A?
That is, how do they overcome the impetus just to keep going on the path they've chosen in ending their M because it's just too hard/embarrassing/hopeless after what they've done to turn around and try again.
Is the answer just "who knows? Some of them get there and some of them don't?"
Does anyone have any experience with a WAW who came back and explained how they took this huge step?
I get the feeling, constantly, from my H that he believes that there's no coming back from what he's done - cause it's so monstrous and he's such a bad person.
Is there anything I can do around that?
Sorry, I meant WAS, not specifically WAW, who came back!
Something that's on my mind at the moment that I can't throw off.
ncl - you out there? Cause I know you've been through this issue yourself.
How does a WAS get past the shame of what they've done in having an A?
That is, how do they overcome the impetus just to keep going on the path they've chosen in ending their M because it's just too hard/embarrassing/hopeless after what they've done to turn around and try again.
Is the answer just "who knows? Some of them get there and some of them don't?"
Does anyone have any experience with a WAW who came back and explained how they took this huge step?
I get the feeling, constantly, from my H that he believes that there's no coming back from what he's done - cause it's so monstrous and he's such a bad person.
Is there anything I can do around that?
Good question. I think that some continue to justify it. As long as it is justified, then nothing bad happened. Some probably admit that what they did was wrong, seek forgiveness, and move forward from there. But the bottom line is, "who knows?"
I think that one thing that you can do to make it easier is to be careful about what you say and who you say it to. If, for example, you spend lots of time trashing the cheating WAS to family and/or friends, it is going to make it much more difficult for that WAS to come back and/or heal from it. They will face the likelihood of being judged, ostracized, and talked about. I think that it is very important that you keep the fact of the A to yourself, those here on this board, and maybe to very few very close friends or family members who you strongly believe will forgive him if you do.
Denver
Hey NLW! The best advice I can give you is to not worry about what motivates the WAS to return to the marriage or not. Instead, take your husband out of the equation entirely and focus on being the very best NLW you can be...a woman only a fool would leave. I truly came to a point during my separation where my only goal regarding my husband (soon to be ex at that time) was to co-parent effectively together. In my mind, I was moving on. I honestly cannot say what motivated him to come back; I believe it was a combination of things (he waking up, realizing ow is a complete nut job, seeing me and the kids as the amazing package that we are, etc). Try not to get ahead of yourself and take things one day at a time, one DB step at a time. Right now it's time to focus on YOUR goals!
You are doing great, and you are getting excellent advice from some great DB'ers and vets. Follow what they recommend, and hang in there! ncl
Thanks ncl; great to hear from you!
I realise that my thinking is still focused on my H.
I have changed my attitude and focus a lot, I feel. Much more at peace with the idea that he's truly gone and that I need to think only about a life that involves me and the kids.
But part of my sadness at the moment is realising how much of a hole he has dug for himself by taking up with OW semi-publicly again.
I'll get over it, but finding out that he was going away with her for a holiday (my surmise, but pretty sure) has made me realise how difficult it's going to be for him (and me) ever to come back from his current choices. Hence my ruminations on how/if WASs overcome the shame involved.
Hope things are going well for you and your kids.
Best, NLW
GAL newsflash - not very exciting/interesting to anyone but me, but I feel as if I've cleared a hurdle in the get-out-and-do-it-alone stakes:
Last night I went to S13's school's quiz night fundraiser for a basketball trip to China.
There were 22 tables of 10 parents and it lasted for 4 hrs - so you can get some idea of the intensity/competition involved.
And my table WON!! Yay!
And not only did we win, we creamed the opposition.
I came home with bottles of wine, chocs, etc as my share of the prize.
But most of all, I came home knowing that I could attend such a function - where I had to bowl up to a table of parents I didn't know, and sit with them for 4 hrs, then walk back to my car in the dark at midnight and drive myself home - and not worry about it.
Before all this started, I would NEVER have thought of doing something like this on my own.
I SO wanted to text H to say "Guess what? I just won the school quiz night" because quizzes were always his thing, and we always went to every school quiz night for both of our kids' schools.
It would have been happy gloating on my part, not point-scoring - much......
Yay for you , NLW!
Sounds like fun and great way to start to see yourself, the real you.
GOOD FOR YOU!!!
Keep up the good work with GAL!
oh my NLW - my memory is so bad - that i didn't realize that i had been following your thread - and had missed your reply to me comletely.
i can't figure out how to get notified about getting messages or answers to my posts.
you were great to have pulled back and not called any of them.
the sister and mother of the ow are friends of ours - we had just never met ow all these years. and in the first few months i was SORELY tempted to call the sister, because H had told me that she was very upset when she realized what they were doing, "because she loves you" he said to me.
but i'm glad i refrained too . one thing this sitch has really taught me - as a life lesson is that EVERYBODY has their own pain, not just me.
and your finding out that compassion and understand help you keep the high road and make you feel better - it really resonates with me, also and that is what i have kept doing.
i was so lucky that in the first week after the bomb, a friend handed me one of Pema Chodron's books - it saved me and took me down the path of meditation, which has given me some semblance of composure for a few minutes here and there .
everything you wrote about how pathetic you felt and how now, just the slightest bit of detachment relieves you so much - it's uncanny - i'm going through the same exact thing - and at the same time. there must be something about the 7 month mark - seems more than coincidental
take care
zig
""I'll get over it, but finding out that he was going away with her for a holiday (my surmise, but pretty sure) has made me realise how difficult it's going to be for him (and me) ever to come back from his current choices. Hence my ruminations on how/if WASs overcome the shame involved.""
i know how you feel and i wonder exactly the same thing you do. i wonder though, that whether the LBS sees and feels the shame of it so much more intensely for the WAS , because we have known them as the good people they are before they did this. and then if i keep in mind that H literally almost doesn't know what he's doing, it's easier to understand how they can get over it if they want to. ( i mean i know he is conscious of what he's doing, but he's built his anger up to such a ferocious level that it blinds him in a way to the reality of what he's doing and how it is affecting the people in his family)
a few days ago as a GAL i went out with the girls to celebrate our friends b'day and at the first restaurant we were at, it suddenly hit me that he had been in there with ow, and then we walked by 2 others that he had taken her to also, and i had to just let it go and say you can't let this matter, because these are great places to go out to and there will be tons of other times when you will meet your friends there and you can't not go because they've been there together.
if we ever expect them to let go of ow and work it out with us, we will have to let go of these sorts of things, right? so might as well let go of them now.
Zig,
Thank you for sharing your insight on this. It helped me a lot.
I'd not been thinking about my H like this (i.e., he literally almost doesn't know what he's doing, so he can get over it if he wants to).
Makes such sense to me. This whole thing is so non-rational, don't know why I'm still trying to see cause-effect links in anything.
And yes, you're right, need to let go, let go. In more ways than one!
Just hoping for some advice.
I've received a lot of recommendations to let my H go - live my life as if he is no longer a part of it.
And I'm trying to do this as much as I can.
But I also think that in my sitch - 2 kids: D16, S13 - there is going to be a lot of contact.
H is back from his trip tomorrow after being away for 5 days and I think he'll ask again if he can take kids to school in the mornings and drop them home after school each day.
For a while, I've been resisting his requests to take them to school - because he is not very reliable, time-wise, and having him standing awkwardly around the house each morning was pretty stressful for us all.
I also worried that he was only wanting to drive them around to justify his recent bullying of me about his taking of our family car.
That, and I suspect his L has also told him to do more in respect of child-caring duties if he wants to get his hands on a big chunk of my superannuation.
So my question is:
Should I agree to him coming over each morning and afternoon to pick up and drop off the kids (keeping up the regular contact / making him see what he's missing in family life)
OR
Would it be better from a drop-the-rope/get-a-taste-of-the-reality-of-life-on-your-own perspective to say:
"We've got our own routines now, thanks. We need to do these things on our own" (Ie, Now that you've left us)?
So, might it be better to increase the contact OR give him a chance to miss us?
I'd really appreciate people's views here.
NLW
Forgot to add that a part of me thinks it would be good to annoy OW by having H come over to our house before 7am each day, and also each afternoon.
Can't be conducive to the building of a happy, stable relationship.
However, given that he doesn't stay very long even when he does the pick-up and drop-off ( i.e. he disappears for the 25-min gap between delivering D16 to her school and coming back to get S13 to take him to his school. I think he goes back to OW's house in between).
And before anyone tells me to "just do whatever is best for me"....
I have to say that I've thought about this, and I just don't know any more. I want to do what's going to be best for getting my M back on track.
I have to say that I've thought about this, and I just don't know any more.
Forget the marriage for now, it's over. I know that's painful but it is for all intents and purposes. Is there a chance that that might change? Who knows?
What I see is you twisting yourself like a pretzel trying to figure out what will have an impact on him. That must be torture every day. I'm so sad for you.
How can you change things around and live your life as a happy, strong woman and mother?
What goals do you have for YOU outside of your marriage?
Hi Labug,
Thanks for your quick response.
I can see your point.
My goals for me outside of my M are pretty much what they always have been - to be a good mother, to look after my parents, and to do well in my career.
I think I've been getting better at the former two, and I'm still plugging along OK, given the circumstances, with my career (Just handed a final book manuscript to the publisher yesterday, put in a big grant application last month, and my latest post-grad received examiners' reports recommending a commendation for her PhD, just today).
BUT - and here comes the resistance - I still have to respond to H's request about his interaction with the kids.
And I still want to save my M. So, from a DB perspective, or in terms of hard-won experience, I'm just wondering if anyone can see a better path to chose here?
Or am I just not getting it?
So my question is:
Should I agree to him coming over each morning and afternoon to pick up and drop off the kids (keeping up the regular contact / making him see what he's missing in family life)
OR
Would it be better from a drop-the-rope/get-a-taste-of-the-reality-of-life-on-your-own
Yes and yes. I say do both NLW. First, he is still a father. One with parental responsibilities. Why shouldn't he take responsibility for getting his children to and from school. Seems to me that that's one less burden to fall on your shoulders. And SO WHAT that he has to stand awkwardly in front of the house waiting??? THAT is the dose of reality that he needs. That is his problem, and his alone.
The second part of this is that you should also drop the rope. Give him the responsibility and see what he does with it. Send the kids out to him when they are ready. You don't need to go outside with them. They are old enough. In other words, you don't need to see him or talk to him when he picks them up or drops them off. Drop the rope and let him deal with HIS responsibility.
Lastly, go do some really, really fun things with your kids. Just the 3 of you. I promise you that they will be talking to him about it when he is driving them to and from school. Get someone to watch them one night a week so that you can go out and have some fun by yourself or with friends. He will hear about that too. So you will be killing 2 birds with one stone! GALing AND getting him to wonder wtf you are doing... and he will. But you used the right term... DROP THE ROPE.
JMO NLW...
Denver
I still feel as I did in my posts from January and November to you. I know LRT is counter-intuitive and emotionally hard to implement, but it's your best path forward.
You WILL prevail (either in saving your M or in saving yourself) by accepting that your old M is dead and moving on (or at the very least acting as if you are moving on). I still feel that YOU should be the one imposing the financial and custodial separation upon him. Give him the overdue consequences of his choices.
If as a divorced woman you are ok with your ex stopping by to shuttle kids to and from activities, then I suppose let him. But in no way should it be about him or kibbutzing with him. I personally would not want an ex in my business so much. Might make it awkward when the ex meets my new lover.
(FROM 1/19 post below)
So this seems to be the nub of the problem.
If the only solution is to pull back from him, I think we will be on a quick slide to 'visitation' schedules for separate time with the kids. In other words, there will be little to no contact between us from then on, and H will get his 'fix' of being a Disney dad.
Where to go from here?
The nub of the problem is that you are still not accepting and validating and moving forward with your life (LRT-like) per his stated intention not to be with you. You are still trying to maximize contact between the two of you, inviting him to activities during your time with daughter, and trying to strategize the circumstances under which you can "win him back."
This approach is doomed to fail and is not DBing. In fact, your WAS pulling further away ("we don't want to give the kids the wrong impression") is evidence that the approach you are pursuing is not working and that the bond between the two of you is slipping away over time. He also is not calling you for coffee and other activities as frequently as he was back in October or spending as much time around the house. If YOU had dropped the bomb on HIM back in October ("yeah you're right, it's best for me if you don't come around anymore, I want to set up separate visitation and financial arrangements, so I can move on with my life," it would, at best, have been more effective than if you drop it on him now, and, at worst, you would be farther along in your life and the process of moving on from someone who doesn't know your value. Perhaps it is not too late.
Your sitch has not substantively improved since when I wrote the below to you in early November:
Try NOT to think about this from a strategic perspective ("will this or won't this bring him back") because then you are not emotionally detached from his choices, and you can get into a spiral of mind reading.
Instead, think whether or not the situation works for you. Are you OK with being treated as a faux-W at your ex-H's convenience? For a ex-H to come in and out of your emotional life at his whim and on his schedule? For an ex-H to occupy much of your daily emotional time -- when will there be time for you to heal and move on?
Because, in your WAH's mind, he is your ex-H at this time. If he was seeking rapproachment with you, or begins to say things like, I am glad we are getting along better now, I enjoy spending time with you more, I like being with YOU and the kids, I miss being with YOU, etc., then I would say to re-examine your doubts and keep things up. But from his words ('now that we are separated') and actions (sleeping away at night), he still sees you two as not a couple, separated, broken up, finished.
I wonder if your discomfort and annoyance at the situation is a sign that you are allowing your WAH to cross a boundary on how you want to be treated in your relationship with your H. If it bothers you, it is more than fine to communicate and enforce that boundary the next time he suggests coffee, drinks or another day together.
You know, H. I really enjoyed spending time with you when we were together, it was great. But, this situation isn't working for me. I mean, we're broken up, but you are here all the time during the day. Because we are separated and not living as a married couple, I need more space from you.
Again, this in no way means you should be hostile to him. Continue to be warm, attractive, HOT, NLW. But, communicate and enforce that boundary to him, and be more mysterious and less available. Establish more of the space he says he wants and that you will be comfortable with, given the circumstances.
and also here:
Originally Posted By: NLW
He said again tonight that getting back together is just not going to happen.
Bustorama:
Accept this is how he feels, and act accordingly.
Originally Posted By: NLW
He said that that was the turning point where I made it clear I was no longer involved in his life/business, and now I have to get along as best I can without him.
I tried to reason with him and pointed out that I had bank-rolled his business for 15 years prior to this, and that i had to think of trying to keep the house and what was best for the kids. I also pointed out that even his parents, whom I'd contacted for advice on what to do, had advised me not to give him my salary cheque. He looked surprised to hear this, but in the end, it cut no ice with him at all.
Bustorama:
You know why? Because you are still arguing with/antagonist to his point of view. You didn't validate his point of view/feelings. Try to see his point of view and accept it (not necessarily agree with it).
You know, H, I can totally see how you would feel that way given what you said. Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking trying to convince you otherwise. I hear that you want a life separate from me, so I am going to focus on myself and my life without you.
Originally Posted By: NLW
In his mind, we are over, with no possibility of change. We are just no good together, yadda yadda yadda.
Bustorama:
So now it's been reconfirmed. When he comes by, it is not (in his conscious mind) with an eye towards getting back with you. Do you want an ex filling your days?
Originally Posted By: NLW
I asked how he wanted to proceed from here and he said we should just keep on being separated. I'm pretty much over this idea. It's just too hard to do. Every day another abandonment, another hurt, and recently, constant irritability from him.
Bustorama:
That's right, you don't deserve to be treated like this. He has no incentive for the status quo to change. He likes things just fine the way they are where he has the parts of you and the family in this faux marriage. Do you like things the way they are? You are worth more. =)
Originally Posted By: NLW
They don't deserve to have this storm break over their lives. It makes me feel so sick and sad.
Busstorama:
Yes, I get it hurts. Model for them how you might like them to act if the same thing happens to them in their lives.
Originally Posted By: NLW
but I really don't think there's any hope for us to get back together.
Bustorama:
Try to focus on your self, not the R or him or his actions. [/quote]
Just wanted to post a little about a book that I’m reading that has made me feel so much better about my sitch.
It’s Peter o’Connor’s Understanding the mlc.
He’s writing from the perspective of a 35 yo man who’s had the mlc experience himself – and also from the point of view of a researcher who subsequently interviewed a lot of mlc men.
The book is presented as an aid to men who are going through what they think is some sort of shocking, unique individual experience. Trying to show them that a lot of men have these terrifying feelings of chaos, futility and hopelessnessat around the ages of 35-45.
The detailed discussion of men’s feelings about their wives, parents, adolescent children, OW, their jobs, and their mortality fitted my H’s behaviours to a T.
The book is out of print now, I think, but for anyone whose H is going through this (or even a W), this description of how the mlc-er is feeling and why they are acting as they do is a must-read.
Having said that, I should point out that O’Connor doesn’t offer any solutions – beyond the advice that mlc men need to look inward and stop focusing on external solutions (ie buying possessions, chasing OW, engaging in manic physical activity, acting like an adolescent).
My question to you all is whether ANYONE thinks it is ever a good idea to suggest some reading to a spouse.
I know what MWD says about the uselessness of cutting out articles on mlc to show them.
It just seems, in relation to this book, that it was written as something to help men who find themselves in this sort of turmoil but believe they are the only ones who feel like this – and they can’t understand why.
I imagine it would help an mlcer like my H (who is a great reader and relatively sophisticated thinker – usually) to get a bit of insight into what is going on.
AND if, as O’Connor argues, the only thing that will help an mlc-er is to look inward, a book like this might just serve as a necessary catalyst.
And yet, it seems to be a suggestion that is doomed to fail.
My H has already denied the possibility that he is going through an mlc.
Has anyone ever had any success in suggesting reading of this sort to an mlc spouse?
Has anyone ever had any success in suggesting reading of this sort to an mlc spouse?
Not that I have ever heard of.
There are no shortcuts through an MLC.
No easy buttons or magic wands.
The people that I know that have made it though have felt that they are going to lose everthing in there life.
They hit rock bottom and then and only then would something like this make any difference.
Someone has to want to get better, nothing YOU do is going to make them do it.
MWD did not write that advice for you to ignore it IMHO.
NLW,
I'm glad you have found a book that helps you understand a bit your husband's mindset as he goes through a MLC, but I would strongly suggest that you do NOT share this information with him. Much like with your DB/DR books, it's not wise to share your "play books." I'm afraid it would come across as pursuing and that he may see it as condescending behavior from you. Instead, just file away the information you have read in your mind and heart. If he comes out of his fog, he will realize these things on his own. Cross that bridge if/when you get there.
A book I strongly suggest for you is The Journey from Abandonment to Healing, by Susan Anderson. It was a godsend for me when going through my separation, and I really believe it would be beneficial to you. Girlfriend, I wish I could give you my personal copy (with all the highlighted text and notes!).
Again...my suggestion is to take your husband out of the equation right now. You cannot "fix" him, and he doesn't want your help (he most likely doesn't think he needs help anyway). So look to "fixing" you and making NLW the best lady you can be...for YOU, for your kids and for your other loved ones. Become the woman only a fool would leave. And if your husband misses out on that...well, then he's the fool.
love and hugs....ncl
Do not show him the book.
NLW, if he will come back, it won't be because of things you do to induce him to. It will be because he figures out that life without you is not what he really wants (or that removing you from his life was not the solution to his unhappiness, etc.).
My W told me recently that she had a clear a-ha moment that started her back towards me. I had completely removed myself from her life (separate everything, fixed custodial arrangements), told her that I did not want her to call or contact me any more unless it was an emergency issue about the kids, and told her that I wanted to begin D proceedings.
During this time of no contact, she had a crisis situation happen that made her take stock of what her life had become, of how she was hitting bottom. She had an epiphany that pushing me out of her life had just ruined it and not fixed it. And the one person she wanted to call and talk to about it was me. And she couldn't because I was moving on.
Bustorama and Cadet are most definitely correct. Do not show him the book or suggest that he read one. As Cadet said, there are no short cuts to this. If he wants to change the current path that he has put himself on, it will have to come from within himself. People don't like to be told to change. We resist that. This is what he will do because telling him to read a book is pressuring behavior and pursuit.
It is only when we decide that we need to change first that we are inclined to actually do it. The best thing that you can do is work on yourself... be the change that you would like and hope to see.
Denver
ncl, Busto, Cadet, Denver,
Thank you, thank you, for taking the time and effort to keep me on track.
You guys have saved me from myself yet again.
You're right, of course, it's more pressuring and pursuit/control on my part to try to get him to change.
I'll get the focus back on my own changes - and truthfully, I have actually been doing this (even if my thoughts sometimes get distracted with dumb ideas about 'fixing' H).
Last night I volunteered at D16's school fete and spent the evening talking with a navy engineer about Swedish diplomatic and defence policy. It was a great change from talking to the kids and the dog - which is mostly what I've been doing for the past 7 months!
Next Sat night I am going to a high school reunion to meet up with people I haven't seen in 35 years. Nervously excited.
Must say I'm looking forward just a little bit to letting H know that I'm going... but really, I'm pretty much (well, 80% at least) accepting of the fact that I need to move on with my life without him.
And since I've been radiating this new-found awareness/acceptance, I have been noticing baby steps from H. He's ringing me now about the kids rather than just texting. And saying things like 'See you when I get there" and coming into the house, rather than just dropping the kids off.
I'm noting these things, but not with any expectations. I'm sure we'll go backwards again as soon as the next financial issue rears its head.
My H is not such a big prize - sure, I want him to come back as a part of our family, but if it can't happen because of who he's become, well, so be it.
I'll survive - and prosper, I hope.
I'm obviously in an 'up' phase at the moment...
Many thanks again to you all.
NLW
Another weekend in the ER with my father. He fell over again and had to be taken to hospital by ambulance.
I took the call from my mother at a cafe where the kids, H and I had stopped off after rowing training (kids had begged H to stop and although at first he said "no", he then relented).
He heard everything I said on the phone to my mum about my dad being rushed to hospital, but didn't say a word about it after I got off the phone. Nor did he offer to drive S13 to his practice later in the afternoon, although he knew I'd have to be at the hospital.
Just weird, as my dad was like a father to H and, up until bomb drop, H had been his confidante. I suppose I'll just never understand....
Sorry to hear about your father NLW. When it rains it pours.
Thanks, Denver.
My dad is back out of hospital today, but very shaky.
Still, he's 88 yrs old!
At least I'm finding it easier to detach from H - and I just have to accept that he's out of my life in all the important ways.
Hope things are going OK for you.
Yes, NLW, as painful as it is, that's the reality and acceptance is the key. It doesn't mean that there is no chance of reconciliation but your best hope is to create a life for you and you children.
Just weird, as my dad was like a father to H and, up until bomb drop, H had been his confidante. I suppose I'll just never understand....
Not really as the WAS has usually been emotionally divorced from us for a while before they leave. In their heads, they've already cut those old ties. Once we understand and believe that it all becomes easier.
Thanks, Labug.
It's interesting that you bring that up - it reminded me that just before bomb drop, my H and I had been on a cruise with my parents and my dad got very sick - nearly died in fact.
H was the one who took over and cared for him in a very intimate way (toileting/showering, etc) as my dad wouldn't let me do it, and my mum was too frail.
The day after we got back, H announced he 'couldn't do it anymore'. I think the pressure he felt seeing my dad nearly die and having to be the one who cared for him was the straw that broke the camel's back. He'd already pretty much detached in his mind, but the need to be the responsible, caring SIL, H, Father just produced too much incongruence for him. The A with OW had started back up and this is when H started to refer to himself as a 'scumbag' and 'dirtbag'.
So, thinking about what you said, I need to realise that H cut those ties 7 months ago, and I've been clinging on under the belief that he'd have to come to his senses at any moment and see what he's missing in leaving us.
But once you cut those ties, it must be almost impossible to go back. And in a sense, there is no 'going back'. It can't be done.
Which is why the emphasis has to be on going forward; on things, and people, being different.
NLW,
I'm so sorry to read that your daddy is having a difficult time again. I am praying for all of you and your family.
Know that while your husband may have tried to cut those emotional ties to your daddy, he still on some level must have somewhat of a connection to him and be concerned, even if he isn't showing it. It's so hard to mind read a person who is going through MLC, so don't even begin to try...but know that there is probably some concern there.
I will say that during each of my 3 separations, I went through some very difficult times on my own (taking my youngest who was seriously ill to the ER on my own followed by my own serious illness which I suffered through while taking care of 4 kids on my own, family members dying, etc), and my H wasn't there at all. Now that he has come out of his fog, I've had to work very hard to put those times behind me and forgive. Either way, as I encountered each obstacle, I learned how much I could endure on my own. I see this happening in you, as well.
Peace, love and hugs...and prayers, ncl
Hi ncl,
Yes, you're right - as usual!
My H called last night to ask how my father was going - and he even volunteered to go speak to him (I'd reported that my father was being a bit difficult with a new Dr).
I declined the offer (as I know my father would tear H to shreds over what he is doing to us - H must still think I haven't told my parents).
In the meantime, I can report also that the advice I've been receiving here lately from you and others - to move on with my life - is producing the classic responses from H.
He's started calling me again instead of just texting, and is even sending funny emails.
Last night, after dropping the kids off, he came in to the house and sat with S13 to do homework - first time in months.
He also started to fix some doors, a broken kettle and some lights around the house that I had asked him about months ago.
He's also started to come to events at the kids' schools with me.
And interestingly, when the kids and I were talking about the recent quiz night that I went to, alone, at S13's school, H asked why he wasn't told about it.
I held back from saying - why would I bother to tell you about THAT when you haven't even been willing to go to things like speech nights and concerts that your own kids are performing in??? Instead, I just said "You were away at the time".
Anyway, I'm getting on and doing things regardless of whether H comes or not, but it's worth reporting that the classic distance/pursuit cycle is occurring yet again.
At the moment, I'm thinking of taking up rowing. I figure it's a good sport for all-round fitness and, at my age, it might not result in too many stress injuries. Both my kids do it, so we could make it a family affair.
Plus...I figure it might be a good way to meet some single guys with good physiques!
Anybody out there know anything about rowing?
Would it be too silly of me at age 53 to start?
I do use ergos at the gym, but find it a bit hard to do well - as well as a bit boring. Rowing on the river looks so beautiful by comparison.
Journalling...
Another day, more baby steps -or maybe just H trying to be nice to me to get what he wants...
I don't know and I don't really care too much anymore.
It seems to me that by the time you can detach enough to truly move forward with your life without thinking of your spouse, you probably don't even really know if you want to reconcile with them any more.
I've been less focused on H - not answering all his calls, getting off the phone and saying goodbye first, making myself scarce when he's in our house, GALing, etc.
And sure enough, he's started pursuing me more.
So, just a post to remind everyone - particularly those new-ish to the horror, that moving on with your life as if H is not a part of it anymore does seem to produce changes in an H's behaviour.
Now whether this means anything in the longer term, I don't know. And I know enough not to have any expectations.
One day at a time - for many more months to come .....
Hey NLW!
I am with you on that ^^^^^^^^^^^^
As I get more and more detached I don't know if I want IT back.
I like weight lifting. I never really thought of it as a way to meet men. But it turns out, you end up talking to more people than you realize just by going around the gym doing different exercises.
I have had marines tell me they admire my intensity when I work out. Funny. I don't like the cardio machines. I bet rowing would give you a great workout and some peace.
I get a lot of hellos just putting my paddleboard off and on my car. Tending a row boat would work the same, I'm sure.
Take Care!
NLW, you are only limited by you! I say, Go For IT!
Journalling...
Another day, more baby steps -or maybe just H trying to be nice to me to get what he wants...
I don't know and I don't really care too much anymore.
It seems to me that by the time you can detach enough to truly move forward with your life without thinking of your spouse, you probably don't even really know if you want to reconcile with them any more.
I've been less focused on H - not answering all his calls, getting off the phone and saying goodbye first, making myself scarce when he's in our house, GALing, etc.
And sure enough, he's started pursuing me more.
So, just a post to remind everyone - particularly those new-ish to the horror, that moving on with your life as if H is not a part of it anymore does seem to produce changes in an H's behaviour.
Now whether this means anything in the longer term, I don't know. And I know enough not to have any expectations.
One day at a time - for many more months to come .....
I'm loving the strength I'm reading in your posts. Keep your focus on you and taking care of your kids and watching over your parents. And by all means, go for it with the rowing! You are going to be an even hotter mama!
Ok, need to vent a bit today.
It was parent-teacher interview night at D16's school - and time for a dose of consequences for H.
He'd obviously been anxious about the event - when he bought the kids home from school today, he didn't even turn off the car in the driveway. Kids said he hadn't spoken to them all the way home as had been p'ed off at S13 for being slow to come to the car after school.
A big change from the way he'd been acting in the last week - all friendly and staying back after drop-offs to help with homework.
Anyway, I get to school for the first appointment and end up calling H to see where he is. He says he is driving away from school as he doesn't know where the interviews are held (he hadn't asked me - I'd assumed we would have discussed it when he dropped the kids home this afternoon).
He is massively p'ed off. I patiently explain where I am and eventually he turns up.
First interview and teacher expresses surprise that D16's marks have dropped and that she is always late with her assignments.
After the interview, H tells me this is because she is now too busy going to proms and the movies every weekend. I don't say what I think, but just agree that this could be the problem.
Next interview, same story. D16 was an A student and is now getting Cs.
Next interview, form teacher asks why D16's attitude may have changed.
We are sitting in a corridor, with other parents cueing behind us - and all can pretty much overhear what we are saying.
H is looking meaningfully at me with his eyebrows raised and I can tell he wants to announce to the teacher that we are separated.
He is just about jumping out of his skin to do it.
I feel like the situation is completely inappropriate. I would probably burst into tears and all the parents waiting behind us would hear/see what was happening.
We exit the interview and walk to a slightly secluded spot and all hell breaks loose.
H attacks me verbally for not telling the teacher about us, and when I try to say I felt it was not the time to do it, he gets even more agitated.
He ends up swearing at me and stomping off (literally), saying that he will not continue with the charade. He refuses to see any more of the teachers with whom we have scheduled meetings - including those who have expressly asked to see us to discuss D16's work.
H is incandescent with rage.
He seems desperately to need me to announce to the world that we are separated.
If he could have me wear a placard bearing the category "Separated' or "About to Divorce", he would be much happier, I feel.
Not sure if it's just guilt-induced anger erupting (over what he's doing to D16) or if he's annoyed about not being able to flaunt OW in public while he's still got a wife in the eyes of all who know him.
Got hold of 'Co-dependent No More' and found the stuff on detachment really useful, so I was in a much better place to deal with his public outburst tonight.
Still makes me sad to witness the effects of all this on our kids.
Ugh...gotta love (NOT) the rollercoaster of the WAS/MLC'er.
My advice is to put what you have learned about detachment into practice. Do not get back on HIS rollercoaster. Simply step back, refocus on yourself and the kids, and give him his time and space to be angry and get over it.
Don't try to mind read about what this little fit was about. If he chooses to tell people the two of you are separated, so be it. That is his choice, and you cannot control it. You have chosen to not tell certain people about the separation. That is your choice, and he cannot control it (don't allow him to). You don't owe him any explanations for your choices.
I'm glad you found some good material on detachment. Read it over and over again. If you haven't gotten "Journey from Abandonment to Healing" yet, please consider doing so.
I know it is hard to witness the effect your husband's choices have on the kids, but again...they are HIS choices. Do not own them. Just do your very best to provide your children with a loving and stable home from YOU.
hugs...ncl
My W tries to convince herself and me that this D can be a positive for the kids. When things show up that counters that thought i think her guilt and fear of what shes doing to those she cares about makes her scared, which turns to anger. then whos her favorite outlet for anger? yours truly. i think this kinda reaction is pretty script. Dont let it get at you.
Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy. Your H is totally passive aggressive. Why didnt he just tell the teacher?? Why is it your job to tell the world?? Let him tell everyone, you didnt stop him. He is nuts
I would tell your kids' teachers asap. This is no longer about you and him. At least they can look out for your kids when you're not around. Forget about what a d*ck your H is.
When he starts ranting like that, hold up your hand and tell him that you are not going to be treated that way any longer and walk away with your head held high. Don't be afraid.
When he starts cussing at you, don't take the bait. Just walk away.
Thanks guys for your input - it really helps when I am feeling as down as I am tonight - almost like I'm going insane with the worry and unreality of it all.
H came over and announced that he'd gone to D16's school and told her form teacher today that we had 'separated'. So soon after last night's interview, apart from anything else, it makes me look like an idiot. But then again, I am.
This woman is also a mother at S13's school as well, so everyone there will know now, and S13 is upset about this. His school was the one place where he could be 'divorce-free', as it were.
Even S13 commented that daddy is behaving like a teenager having tantrums: "He's so angry and just grunts at you and won't talk properly - Why?"
Finding it hard to keep going right now. How I want to scream at this man and shake him. Alternately, I fantasise about him just 'disappearing'. If only he would just evaporate or implode or something. Just NOT BE HERE ANY MORE.
Yuk, I'll get through this, but it's sometimes almost too much to bear, as you all know....
ncl,
Just to let you know I do have the book "Journey from Abandonment to Healing" and I am reading it.
Thanks for your continuing support. It means so much to see your posts.
Best, NLW.
In the words of Dory from Finding Nemo....
"Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, swimming, swimming."
Hang in there!!! Ncl
Journalling,
I went to my reunion on Sat night and had a great time meeting up with old friends.
H came over to watch S13 while I was out.
I wore a new sexy sheath dress that showed off my new LBS figure. H said "You look great" as I was on the way out.
I asked him whether he needed me to be home by any particular time and he said "Just text me when you're coming home".
So... at midnight I get a call on my phone. It's him sounding p'ed and saying "I have to get to work, when are you coming home?"
I said "It'll take me at least 30 mins to get home if I leave right now."
He said " I'll have to go now and leave S13 here on his own."
I left the party and was surprised when I drove home to see his car still in the driveway at 12.45pm. He came out and said that he couldn't find the house key to lock the door and so couldn't leave S13 asleep alone in the house.
He was still p'ed, but said "Hope you had a good time?"
I answered with a vague confirmation.
Before I left I 'd asked him to take a look at the kids homework with them. But he said that he would come over the next day (Sunday) to help the kids with their homework (both kids have been struggling with maths since he left). He also told the kids this and so they left their homework till later.
He didn't show at all on Sunday.
D16 eventually rang him at 9pm after struggling with physics and maths assignments, but he wasn't much help over the phone. She begged him to come over and look at her papers, but he said he'd been working shifts back-to-back all day and could not.
I may no longer have expectations, but the kids still do. Sometimes it's hard to try to live our lives as if he's no longer a part of it.
That's 12.45 am (when I returned)!
Another day another pain in the proverbial.
D16 is acting out with oppositional behaviours and poor school performance.
Tonight she expressed disdain about having to attend her brother's football season launch tomorrow afternoon/evening (i.e. watching a game, having a sausage sizzle).
H, who was at home with us at the time, said "why can't she stay at home?"
I took him to another room and filled him in on some of the problem behaviours she's been exhibiting lately that have led to me not wanting to leave her alone at home.
The main one being that if I say she is not allowed to go somewhere, she sometimes just says "You can't stop me" and walks out of the house.
H accused me of being too soft on her, and when I asked what he thought I should do, he replied that I should simply lock the doors after she leaves.
When I pointed out that I couldn't lock a 16-year-old out of the house overnight, he just said that she needed a dose of reality and should be made to suffer the consequences of her decisions.
He got very angry and talked a lot about her behaviour with boys, and stated that she should come and live with him, as I was clearly not coping well with her rudeness and poor school performance.
Now, my H rents a room from a single male friend who is in his 40s. This guy lists the single entry: 'women' under the category, 'Interests' on his Facebook page.
My D16 should occupy another rented room in this house that functions as a flop house for itinerant men from the mining industry????
Give me strength.
Surely this is not appropriate? And under the supervision of a father who thinks locking her out of the house at night is a good lesson in life skills.
Any opinions about what I can do? To me, he seems to have gone completely nuts.
Well, the full moon is coming up on Friday.
I agree that your husband's living arrangement is inappropriate for a 16 year old girl. If I were you, I'd stop going to him for advice on how to handle the kids when they act out. You don't trust his judgment to make sound decisions right now, so why would you value his advice? If you aren't going to value his advice, why ask for it? Instead, I'd reach out to a counselor, a trusted clergy member or teacher/school administrator for advice. Also, if your husband is not dependable to help the kids out with homework, seek help from a tutor or teacher friend.
While it would be ideal that he be there to help you raise the kids in a loving, healthy, reasonable and responsible way, the reality is that he isn't right now. So once again, take him out of the equation and find a way to deal with these problems without his assistance. I KNOW you can do this! Reach out to your trusted friends for help when you need it. I have no doubt that you have many people who care dearly for you and your family and would love to help you in anyway they can.
I'm sorry the kids are struggling as a result of your husband's poor decisions. Just continue to be there for them best you can. While they may take out their anger and hurt on you now, I am confident that they will forever appreciate you being the rock they could depend on during this difficult time.
hang in there...ncl
ncl,
Thanks for this feedback.
I sort of came to this conclusion overnight but it really helps to hear it from someone else.
I'm still trying to treat my H as if he is a normal, rational husband and father - the man I used to know.
He isn't, and as much as it hurts to take him out of the equation - even in regards to the children - that's what I have to do if I want my life to get better.
To be honest, I think that I have been trying to show him that there are severe consequences to his decision to move out on us.
His kids, particularly his D16, were one of the focus points of his life before this, and I guess I wanted him to see what terrible impact he was having.
I was also still trying to reach out to him as my spouse - in dealing with the sadness and confusion that's hit me in respect of D16's behaviour changes.
And I'm also just plain sick of him saying that the kids are fine and everything is better for everybody concerned now that he has moved out.
This is point-scoring, not compassion, and it's come back to bite me.
Had an 'interesting' interaction with H this morning.
In relation to D16's acting out, he announced that he'd found a used condom next to the rubbish bins in our driveway a few months ago.
He said it was either mine or hers, and demanded to know if it was mine.
Now, this sounds completely weird to me. And I know it's nothing to do with me, and I'd be VERY surprised if it had anything to do with my D (we do talk about this sort of stuff).
I said 'Hang on, when did you find it?'
- because it occurred to me that what he had actually seen was a small white decomposable 'poo bag' that we've used since we got the dog.
These look like thin condom-type material when they get wet, and so it pretty much fits the bill.
Anyway, H got incensed when I said this and immediately walked out and got in his car, smirking and shaking his head to himself all the while.
A little later, on a call to arrange pick-ups for the kids, he said he wanted to speak to D16 about this condom.
I said, before he did that, could there be any possibility that what he'd seen in the driveway might have been one of these bags, or a fragment thereof.
He went ballistic, saying that I am trying to 'mess with his head'. (By asking what date he's seen the condom in order to work out if it'd been mine.)
He went on to say that the condom MUST have either been mine or hers. And that I wouldn't tell him if it was mine.
He was beside himself with anger and frustration.
I suppose he thinks that I entertain men at home with the kids in the house, whilst I am almost dying with grief over the ongoing disintegration of my marriage.
And then, I toss used condoms into the rubbish bin, so as to miss it and leave them lying on the ground in the driveway!!!!!!
Holy maroley.... the guy is certifiable.
Hi NLW!
I'm new and who knows when this post may show up as I'm still on moderation.
I've been dealing with an H with MLC for a bit now (although bomb drop was recent). He used to be an excellent father, husband, friend, etc, etc, etc. In the last several years, he is the one who has chosen to not co-parent with me any longer. So "luckily" for me, acting as a sole parent hasn't been as difficult for me. Once you get the hang of it, and only trust your instincts, you will be fine. It may seem unnatural at first, but in your head/heart you know what's best for your kids.
However, I know the temptation to show H how his actions are hurting the kids. He believes that getting a D is no big deal to our children and they will be better off because of it. I see 3 kids who have each been sick (2 of them fairly serious illnesses) since he chose to leave. As their mother, I see that their little bodies are so stressed by the situation, that they can't fight off any infections at this point. H doesn't agree, but then again, he is living in the world of a petulent and self-absorbed teenage boy - why would he care about the welfare of anyone that isn't him?
All you can do is your best and explain to your kids that he is in a fog on his own island. They unfortunately and fortunately know what's going on and the three of them have to work out (without you) how they are going to get along. You are no longer responsible for his relationship (or lack thereof) with them.
Good luck!
Hi fn, thanks for dropping by.
Sorry to hear that your kids have been doing it hard - but it sure sounds like they hit the jackpot with their mom, though.
Your advice seems so spot-on - and your h sounds just like mine: "a petulant and self-absorbed teenager" indeed!
I took your advice about not being responsible for his relationship with our kids any more by not pressuring him about Easter.
He rang and asked me what the plans were, but I just said "Well, we're having our traditional hot X bun breakfast on Friday and egg hunt on Sun".
He said he'd be too busy working, so I left it at that. All nice and upbeat and no pressure (I've recently told him I'm moving on with my life).
The kids were very disappointed that he wasn't coming over, and it crossed my mind in a moment of weakness and sadness to get them to ring him on Friday morning to ask him to come for breakfast, but I realised this would be self-defeating.
So, just as we are about to sit down to our hot X buns, H rings and asks if he can come over.
He arrives and looks as if he's been crying all night (puffy, bloodshot eyes).
He's as nice as pie, accepts a coffee and a bun (usually won't eat or drink anything I offer), and hands over a big bag of easter eggs (each type in a multiple of 3, i.e. one of everything for me and the kids).
Now, unfortunately, they are from the most exclusive chocolate shop in town - and would have cost over $100 in total.
In the past, H and I have always given each other one of these 'special' eggs, but not the kids (they get standard choc eggs). Today, the kids and I got 5 of these eggs each.
In our current financial circumstance - where H says we can no longer pay the mortgage and I don't have money for school shoes for the kids, let alone their school fees, this seems like madness.
Rollercoaster blood-rush.
Thanks NLW, trying my best!
These WAH's are really a piece of work. Mine is complaining about how much money I have spent since he left. I don't know what he's talking about since I didn't leave the house the entire month of February due to bomb drop. March I bought the kids new shoes, a couple of pairs of pants (3) for me (since I'm on the LBS diet now) and groceries. Meanwhile his new apartment costs the same as my mortgage payment, he's buying all kinds of new furniture, tv's, blueray players, couches, etc, etc, etc, Oh, did I mention the gifts and cash he gives my kids each time he sees them? UGH!!
I'm glad your H decided to make an effort with you and the kids - that really is huge! Hoping the your 180's & DB efforts are really having an effect on him!
One last tidbit, I'm taking my kids to the movies tonight. D10 wants H to go, I told her she could feel free to invite him, but that he'd probably be busy. I didn't tell her no, but I did put it back in her hands & made her ask H. I try not to care if he comes with us or not, but I do know it's important for my kids, so that's where my struggle lies. I bet that's where we all struggle though.
Sending you loads of HUGS and better times ahead!! xo
Just an update to those folks who have been advising me to accept that H has left our marriage and move forward with my life without him (LRT-like).
I've been trying to do this in the past week-10 days and have noticed some changes in our interactions.
Or, it could just be that H is in a 'normal' phase of his mood swings - or that he's wanting something from me and so is being nice.
Don't know, don't really care, but to anyone who is trying to enact LRT - this latest change in my H's behaviour might be of some interest.
Here's what happened today:
H texted me early Easter Sunday morning to say he was working till midday and could he see the kids then?
I was peeved, as he made it sound as if I 'keep' the kids from him - but I just texted happily back "No worries, we'll save the egg hunt till you get here".
He texted back "Thanks".
He arrived in a happy mood and commented on the great smell of the casserole I was cooking.
I never cooked when we were together, as he took this job as his own (cooking was his big thing). So, a 180 on my part here (he!!, almost a 360, as not only am I cooking - I'm doing a damn fine job at it!)
The house was clean, cosy and decorated for Easter with painted eggs and such. The added extra of great food cooking must have made it seem like a really nice place to be.
H even agreed to eat lunch with us and took a glass of wine and a cup of coffee (great step forward over recent months where he has refused just about everything).
After lunch he sat at the table with me chatting on a range of topics in a way that seemed like he'd never left. We seemed to be getting on like a house on fire.
Then, as he got up to go after about 2 hours, he stepped towards me and said "I'm so sorry for how I've been in the last few weeks. It's not you, it's all me; I'm so sorry".
He then lent in and kissed me on the cheek.
I hugged him back and said "If you'd ever like someone to talk to talk to, I'm here."
Then I just smiled and said "I hope you can work it out, and I walked towards the door."
He got tears in his eyes and thanked me again and went to say goodbye to the kids.
I've been listening to him (lots of eye contact), validating what he says, and generally acting as if I've accepted that our marriage is over and I'm getting on with things.
When I speak to him about the kids, I make every effort not to pressure or have expectations - I just tell him what our schedule is and let him know he is welcome to come.
I'm not doing this as a strategy, more like a survival technique. I know my best chance is to get on with my life and that I have to do this with or without him.
Not to say I don't have bouts of almost incapacitating sadness - but I also feel as if I'll be OK, at other times.
I'd still appreciate any feedback from anyone out there. It's good to get a bit of encouragement because I'm keeping my own expectations low on this change in our dynamic.
Just saw a cartoon in the newspaper:
A man and a woman - he's holding a ring box.
She says:
"OK, I'll marry you, but only until I find someone better."
Now isn't that FUNNY?
Just had an idea - I'm going to leave this newspaper out on the kitchen table when H comes over again.
He always reads the cartoons.
Beats cutting it out and sending it anonymously in the mail (now who could that be from?)
Only joking....
NLW, I'm glad you and your family had a good and drama-free Easter. The detachment is working for you! Whether it saves your marriage or not, it's helping you in your day to day life. I practice it to a certain degree as we reconcile, and I find that I let the little, unimportant things go instead of fussing over them like I used to. It makes for a much more peaceful, stress-free and happy marriage.
The cartoon is funny...maybe he stumbled across it in his paper, too. Of course when they are in the WAS fog, so much goes past then anyway. Just keep being your best YOU for YOU and the kids. I feel sorry for him if he continues to miss out on a great thing.
Have a great week, ncl
Thanks for the reminder about the importance of detaching ncl.
It was brought home to me, again, yesterday by H's failure to turn up to see the kids.
On Sunday, just before he gave his apology, he'd told the kids that he'd be back the next day to do a range of things with us for Easter.
Specifically, he said that he'd come by after his shift ended at midday. He'd offered to pull down a big tree branch that was laying across the electricity wires coming from the street to our house. The kids wanted him to go out with them and he'd agreed, and he'd also indicated that he wanted to taste my casserole and would stay for dinner.
When we hadn't heard from him by 1.45pm, I bundled the kids in the car and took them into the city to see what was going on in the mall.
I pretty much expected a big pull-back from him after yesterday's apology. Regardless of what he says, I don't have expectations any more.
I do like to think that what stops him from following through on his promises is emotional turmoil.
I don't mean this in a nasty way - I'm trying to be compassionate and understanding. I imagine he could be feeling almost paralysed by depression and horror at what he's doing.
But anyway, the kids and I just have to get on with our little lives.
Today it's school holidays and we plan to take puppy to his first obedience class, followed by a movie for me and the kids (it's discount day).
I figure H will still be in nc mode for a while as he attempts to deal with the fact that he accepted some responsibility for his bad behaviour and gave me an apology.
I do wonder where apologising fits into the MLC script. I'd be keen to hear from anyone else whose S has taken to lobbing "I'm sorry; this is all my fault" into the field of play.
Seems like a real shift in POV from the standard rewriting of marital history and monster spew that is usually directed as the LBS.
Cheers, NLW
I'm really up and down over the last few days.
Wish I could control the downs.
Trying hard to keep the days full of activities while S13 and D16 are on holidays.
It all just seems so fake. These are not things I really want to do - I'm just doing them in order to show H that I have a life.
Everything I do is planned and acted out in terms of its effect on my H and my hopes of reconciliation.
Everything H does is designed to send me the same message: He wants to be free of me.
I try to detach and focus on myself, but it doesn't come.
I think it's because I feel inauthentic. I want to rage and scream at him and tell him what a low life he is. But I don't.
I want to cry and beg and make him realise how much I love him. But I don't.
I want to sit in a corner in a darkened room and stare. But I don't.
I want to tell everyone what he is doing to us and what OW has done to us as well. But I don't.
I don't do anything that seems natural. And it's driving me to despair.
All I think my changes are doing is making him feel more guilty - hence the apology.
More guilt is unlikely to produce a reconciliation.
At a loss...
I'm really up and down over the last few days.
Wish I could control the downs.
Trying hard to keep the days full of activities while S13 and D16 are on holidays.
It all just seems so fake. These are not things I really want to do - I'm just doing them in order to show H that I have a life.
Everything I do is planned and acted out in terms of its effect on my H and my hopes of reconciliation.
Everything H does is designed to send me the same message: He wants to be free of me.
I try to detach and focus on myself, but it doesn't come.
I think it's because I feel inauthentic. I want to rage and scream at him and tell him what a low life he is. But I don't.
I want to cry and beg and make him realise how much I love him. But I don't.
I want to sit in a corner in a darkened room and stare. But I don't.
I want to tell everyone what he is doing to us and what OW has done to us as well. But I don't.
I don't do anything that seems natural. And it's driving me to despair.
All I think my changes are doing is making him feel more guilty - hence the apology.
More guilt is unlikely to produce a reconciliation.
At a loss...
NLW - You have described my life perfectly. I know it doesn't make sense, but doing those things to GAL will help you in the long run. Half the time, I just want to lay in bed, but I know that won't help me in reconciliation or D.
Maybe scale back the activities you are doing. Staying in and reading or relaxing can be a form of GAL too. Maybe try some no pressure activities for now. That's what I've been doing. It doesn't work every day but it does most days.
I get that I'm so faking it feeling. I guess the "fake it till you make it" comes into play. I'm not very good at it. I never been good at hiding how I really feel.
Thanks guys, it really helps to know I'm not alone in this sort of feeling.
I think, too, that part of my problem is that I'm always waiting for 'something' to happen in my sitch.
I think I'm constantly hanging out for H to show some sign that he's changed his mind.
It's exhausting to live like this - constantly on the look-out for positive signs and constantly unsatisfied because nothing really changes.
I read and read and read on here in the hope that I'll find that someone, somewhere, has changed their mind and is going to reconcile. And if I do find that, I pore over the 'signs'.
Even when I detach from H's actions and manage not to take them personally and avoid getting drawn into his drama, I still can't shake this terrible empty feeling that comes from nothing happening night after night that can make me feel that I'm getting somewhere.
A lot of the time, I wonder if I'm not just drawing out the agony by DBing.
(((((NLW)))))
I'm sorry you are having a down day, and I'm sorry for the others here, too, who are suffering. Just know that everything you are feeling is completely normal. No matter how much you work on your detachment - and you have done an EXCELLENT job on this - there are still going to be things that he says and does that will hurt, and I'm sorry for that.
Remember to give yourself a break. If you need to cry, then cry. If you need to yell and scream about what a no good SOB he is and what a heartless demon that sorry ow is, do so to us here. We will validate everything you are feeling. I also have a very dear friend who allowed me to let it all out to her when I needed to. I never had to worry about her judging me or telling others. She would just listen and validate. And when my husband and I reconciled, she supported my decision and renewed her friendship with him. THAT is a true friend, and we all need someone like that in our lives. If you don't have a friend like that, can you go talk to a therapist? That is another "safe" place where you can let it all out when you need to.
Keeping the pain and hurt all bottled up isn't physically or emotionally healthy for you. Allow yourself the cry and rant, and then pick yourself up and dust yourself off. There were days when it would take all I had to get the kids to school, and I would come back home and literally pull the covers over my head and sob. But then, I'd get back up, take a shower and get on with life.
I admire your strength and grace throughout this battle for your marriage. You are an excellent example to your children, and I promise you that they will look back on this time later in life and appreciate the fortress you were for them. Only YOU know when you are done fighting for your marriage, and if/when that time comes, I will support your decision no matter what. Just keep taking things one day at a time, sometimes one moment at a time. Know that we all here care about you!
Take a hot bubble bath...eat some chocolate...drink a glass of wine...get some rest!
ncl
I am totally with you. Like I said on my thread I wish I could shake some sense into H. I keep hoping for signs of reconciliation but nothing. Sometimes I feel like a dog begging at the table for scraps. Some days I feel strong and like I will be fine but then memories sneak in or our wedding song will pop into my head and I lose it. I just think what the he## happened to my wonderful H???
ss, ncl, wh
Thanks for your support - it really helps in times like these to know that you guys understand.
I've been pretty down the last couple of days.
So low, in fact, that I haven't been able to bring myself to answer the phone when I see it's H ringing.
Conditioned response, I suppose: when he contacts me it's usually painful.
So, three missed calls since yesterday.
And all I feel is a sense of relief.
What does this say about my commitment to db-ing?
I feel more and more like I am simply dragging out the agony.
I can't heal from this with H around all the time. I keep thinking: if only he'd just disappear.
I am with you. I see H on the caller ID and my heart sinks. What bomb is he going to drop now? When he gets home from work I have to brace myself and put on the mask. It is so hard. I want to go dark sometimes, but I can't because of my children. You are definitely not alone!
ss, ncl, wh
Thanks for your support - it really helps in times like these to know that you guys understand.
I've been pretty down the last couple of days.
So low, in fact, that I haven't been able to bring myself to answer the phone when I see it's H ringing.
Conditioned response, I suppose: when he contacts me it's usually painful.
So, three missed calls since yesterday.
And all I feel is a sense of relief.
What does this say about my commitment to db-ing?
I feel more and more like I am simply dragging out the agony.
I can't heal from this with H around all the time. I keep thinking: if only he'd just disappear.
I remember that feeling well. When I would see h's name pop up on my phone from a call or text, I felt absolute dread...same thing with getting an email. I don't think it says anything negative about your commitment to DB'ing that you don't want to answer. I think you are trying to detach yourself from his drama and the pain he's caused you. If it's an emergency or very important, he'll find a way to get in touch with you. Otherwise, he can leave a message and you can get back to him when you feel like it.
I hope you find some happiness this weekend, NLW. Get out with your kids or go have a cocktail or lunch with a friend. Plant some flowers (I know how you love working in your garden). Get a good book from the library. Go for a walk. Breathe.......you can get through this.
hugs, ncl
nlw - I too go through phases where I am constantly looking for signs. When I am going through these phases I am actually not DBing. I think the ultimate in divorce busting (which is ideal and therefore impossible) is moving on with your life as if H is not coming back but being loving towards him so if he chooses to come back the door hasnt closed.
The more you look for signs the more pressure your H will feel to return. Even the tiniest most infanitisamal pressure your H will notice and run away from.
Seriously just be done with him, he is a fool for what he is throwing away.. You can do so much better
OK, know I shouldn't even wonder why, but I'm starting to feel more like an anthropologist about H's strange behaviour.
And it helps me to keep a journal of how things change in my sitch.
Again, today, H rang to say he would come over to see the kids - and then did not show up.
This has happened twice in the last week.
He called at 2.45pm to ask if he could take S13 to the dog park. I said that we were just on our way to get him a hair cut, but would call him when S was finished.
H then said that he wasn't planning on coming over for 2 hours and so he would see us then.
And then he just didn't show up. No call; no text.
S13 was left waiting and waiting for his dad, whom he hasn't seen since last Wednesday (for 15 mins).
D16 got a call from H at about the same time in the afternoon. But she couldn't answer because she works a checkout EVERY Sat afternoon and has done for the last 18 months, as we (including H) all know.
Maybe he does have a brain tumour????
Contol, don't you think? Passive-aggressive but still control.
Yep, that's it I suppose.
The more I think about it, the more I see that he is still trying to control everything I do.
But maybe that's because he feels that I'm trying to control him.
I thought there'd be some retaliation for not answering 3 of his phone calls.
Oh dear, how tedious.
Be careful where you go with that theory. First, you're mind reading. But more important, are you going to now jump to answer the phone so that he won't retaliate on the kids? (I hope the answer is no.)
He needs to form his relationship with the kids without you trying to control it. You don't know for sure there's a straight line between your decreased availability and his inconsideration to his S.
I've talked to my counselor a lot about my desire to make sure my H is there for his kids, and what she advised me was to be open to talking with the kids, ask questions based on what I observe, see how they're doing and if they want any advice on how to handle it. Encourage them to share their feelings with their dad. It's a fine line because I don't want to suggest to them that their dad is being a turd, but I want them to feel free to have that opinion for themselves and deal directly with their dad on it.
And if it is P/A control, so what? Your path shouldn't change.
Hold your center.
Advina, labug
Thanks for the good advice.
You're right, I need to stick to my path and stop trying to second guess what is motivating H.
I'm taking the kids out to see football today and to visit their grandparents. The weather is beautiful and we will have a full day. No idea when H will contact us again, although he does usually get in touch on a Sunday.
Advina, thanks so much for sharing your counsellor's advice about the kids.
S13 asked me if he should ask his dad why he doesn't show up when he says he's going to and I said Yes.
Journalling.
No contact at all from H since he rang to say he'd be over to pick up S13 to take him to dog park on Sat afternoon and then didn't show.
H has never stayed out of contact with me or the kids for this long before. He hasn't even texted them - which is what he's done every night prior to this. So something is changing.
In the meantime, lots of GAL for me in school holidays.
Great fun watching football game yesterday (although as always, big reminders that H wasn't there with us as usual - and I tried to dodge lots of acquaintances who would ask where he was).
Wonderful day at the beach today.
Movies and dog obedience class planned for tomorrow.
Trying not to think about it, but H's no shows are making me focus on what is up with him - and when he will get back in touch.
No matter what he does, I'm still consumed.
Trying hard to live in the moment and focus on one day at a time.
I'll get there eventually.
NLW,
You are getting stronger...even if you don't feel it, I read it in your posts.
Don't mind read about why he stood your son up (which is just wrong that he did that...makes me mad for you!). Don't mind read about why you haven't heard from him since. Whatever he's going through is HIS to go through. In the meantime, you are the strong mother at home providing a safe, healthy place for your children while also working to provide financially for their needs. They are so very blessed to have you.
I am SO glad to read about your stellar GAL. Way to go, and keep it up! The kids will look back on this time and remember all you are doing for them. They may not thank you now, but trust me...they are grateful for you.
Take care of yourself, and let us know when he finally surfaces. hugs, ncl
ncl,
Thanks so much for your feedback. It's good to know that you can sense change in my POV.
MY GAL is hard-won - still don't feel like doing it and, of course, just when I start doing things that H used to really like doing as a family, he is not around to notice!
But I'm not doing them to get him back, I'm doing them for me and the kids ... I know (or, at least, I will accept this eventually).
I must admit to being a bit concerned in terms of the 'do what works' department.
Since I stopped being so available to H (i.e. stopped answering his every call), he has cut us off almost completely.
I realise that not much time has passed in relation to this - and that I might be making a mistake to draw a line between my going dim and his NC ... but it does concern me a bit.
He is SO retaliatory.
He told me after I found out about his A that he did it only to get back at me for the hurt I had done to him.
Anyway, just need to be patient and keep trying to work on myself.
Great to hear from you as always, and I'll keep you posted!
Hugs, NLW
Well,
Here's my update on H re-appearing.
I may be going mad(der), but I smell a rat.
Took the kids to the movies and tried to pay using my credit card. It was declined.
So humiliating but, hey, I'm used to it by now!
H is still in control of paying all of our bills - and obviously had not paid my credit card, so they had frozen it.
This despite his recent lengthy explanations that he had automated direct debit payments to my credit cards to ensure that just this situation didn't keep happening.
I texted him to say that the card was declined and "Could we fix?"
An hour or so later he texted back saying "It should be OK now".
Ten minutes later (and with no reply from me) my phone rings and it's him.
I let it go, and then H tries D16 who also lets it go.
After the movie, I ring him back and he asks if he can come over as he needs to get the car re-lease documents re-signed as "there was an error in them last time" (I did them last week).
Now, surely he would have needed to get in touch with me about this - he was in a real rush to do it straightaway today.
But he hasn't contacted me for 3 days...until I had to contact him to say that the credit card was frozen.
Passive aggressive control par excellence, or just me being paranoid???
When he did come over he was as nice as anything - without a word about the fact that we hadn't seen or heard from him since he said he was on his way over 3 days ago.
Just found out H got run over by the reality bus again on the weekend.
Need to vent - and gloat, I'm ashamed to say.
Who would have anticipated that, at 42 years old, he might have some trouble taking up football after not having played any sport since he was 18?
Apparently he spent the weekend having X-rays to check whether he'd broken 3 ribs after tackling a "fat guy". Said he could barely breathe, let alone move.
And now he's back on heavy-duty pain killers, this time for his ribs rather than the knee he busted 2 weeks ago. (Good combo, BTW, with the alcohol he's using now to numb his pain.)
And the season hasn't even started yet - his injuries came from pre-season 'friendlies'.
Shouldn't gloat, but can't wait for the real thing and some serious body contact with aggressive opponents who are 20 years younger or seriously experienced players, or just thugs.
Now, if only he could be knocked unconscious and wake up with amnesia - forgetting all this mlc BS....
Sometimes it takes getting your ribs crushed from a tackle by a fat guy to open your eyes to reality...if he doesn't have enough sense after that to grow up, perhaps he needs an MRI on his brain as well.
I'm just joking with you...I don't mean to make fun of what could have been a very bad situation for him, and I'm glad he wasn't injured more seriously.
Let him live his life...you keep living yours. Stay on the high road.
Hang in there...ncl
Journalling.
And I'd appreciate hearing anyone's feedback on the latest interaction with H - all seems so contradictory...I just don't know what to think/do any more.
H rang today and asked to meet at a cafe to talk. He'd been trying to set up a meeting for a few weeks but I kept saying I was too busy.
I finally acquiesced as I was finding it all too stressful.
Now, having met him, I have a different level of stress to deal with, of course.
He was very nice and friendly and was happy to talk about any number of topics - movies, the kids, football, his ribs.
We sat for 2 hrs in the cafe and he pressed me twice to let him buy me a second cup of coffee. It was just like old times - we get on so well.
I told him I appreciated the fact that he was willing to talk with me (applauding the 1%) and that I was glad we could still have convos about movies, books, and stuff like we do.
I said that there were so few people it was possible to have decent conversations with. He replied in strong agreement: "Isn't that the truth, I haven't had a decent conversation with anyone for so long" (!!!!)
He teared up repeatedly - about 4 times in the 2 hrs when we talked about the kids and about finances and so on. He told me I was being "wonderful"; that I was a "wonderful" person.
However, he also said at one point that "Nothing has changed" - i.e. that he is still going ahead with the separation and divorce.
He pressed me for details of who I had told about our separation - saying that he didn't want to say the wrong thing in front of people.
Then he asked if I was OK about his proposal (from months ago) to keep our finances the same for the next 5 years - i.e., he will make mortgage payments for next 5 years and also pay half of school fees until both kids are finished in 5 yrs time. (And then he will go for half of everything I have.)
Then he said things were really tough for his business at the moment and that his customers were not paying him. Because of 'our' cash-flow problem, I would need to go to the bank and explain that I needed to ask for a hardship provision on our mortgage payments - effectively stopping them for 3 months. This would free up money to pay school fees and other bills.
He also said I'd have to reduce the amount of my salary that was being paid into my superannuation (this is a significant tax saving for me), so that the money could be used to pay our bills.
He pressed me to say that I would do these things straightaway - he is obviously VERY pressured financially. When I hesitated and said that I would need to see some details about my financial situation - who pays for what at the moment, what our debts are, etc, he became agitated and said he would obviously have to get his lawyer to draft a separation agreement and divorce papers.
I'm OK in one sense about this - it may be the only way to get him to reveal details of our finances - BUT - I have had a huge bill from seeing my lawyer for 2 hrs already that I cannot afford to pay. So I don't know what to do.
If I have to pay for more lawyer time, I won't be able to pay the mortgage, and I will lose the house, ditto for him, and the kids will lose their schools.
Same old bind, really. The only difference now is that we seem to be getting on so well.
I have been dropping the rope and DB-ing more carefully lately and it has paid off in terms of making him come towards me in much more friendly ways.
However, the issue of finances has always been a stumbling block. I get the sense that his business is teetering on the brink even more.
If it founders, the kids and I will suffer - i.e. we will lose our home and they will lose their schools.
I feel like I need to buy time - time to show consistent change in me and in how we interact. I don't want to bust everything up over a couple of financial decisions.
But I don't want to be a doormat either.
And maybe he is right. Perhaps now is not the time for me to be putting extra money into my superannuation, regardless of the long-term tax benefits. And perhaps using the 'hardship' provision on a home loan is no big deal - maybe it's just my protestant ethic kicking in (i.e., if you have a debt, you honour it and don't try to weasel out).
My lawyer will go adversarial, I know. But in my circumstances (both in relation to keeping his business going - which is in my best interest - and in terms of DB-ing, this might not be the best line of action. My H has only one mode when threatened: retaliation.
Help, I need some different perspectives on this!
One other comment that H made during our convo in the cafe today seemed significant. It related to the fact that:
Yesterday, D16 texted H at dinner time to say that we were having roast beef and would he like to come over for dinner. The kids haven't seen H for a while and it was the last night of school holidays.
He texted back that he was covering an (expensive) shift answering phones and could not.
The background to this request is that Sunday night dinners were always our big family roast nights.
Up until a few months ago, h was still dropping by and staying to eat with us and watch a movie.
Today, he openly cried and asked me not to let the kids ask him for dinner any more as "I just can't handle it".
What does this say about where he is in the process?
I am SO confused.
I am focusing on living my own life as if he is no longer here, but these mixed messages keep bringing me down.
Just need to share...
Hi NLW,
It sounds like he is very conflicted and his resolve is starting to erode. I would just keep doing what you're doing as it seems you are DB'ing well and its having some impact.
I would try to separate your finances so you have more visibility. Set up separate and shared bank accounts and have him deposit into the shared account a regular amount on a given schedule to cover what he has agreed to cover. With everything else going on, you don't need this murky financial situation. I think you should take over paying the bills that directly impact you with H providing whatever funding he agreed to.
You will find the visibility and control reassuring.
Accuray
Thanks for that advice Accuray - so sensible.
I will certainly try to get H to agree to this, but i don't have great expectations.
He is so far gone with mlc/depression that even if he agrees to things, he usually forgets/fails to do them.
Still, the moments of what i refer to as 'clarity' on his part do seem to be becoming more frequent lately.
Another good interaction with him yesterday when he dropped the kids off after school.
I made myself scarce in the office working on my computer, and sure enough, he was soon in there with me telling me about his football team being "the most important team in the state".
I took the bait: "What do you mean?"
"Well, the guy who's going to be the next premier (i.e. governor) of the state is in it. As is the guy who runs Restaurant X (a popular chic eatery) and he's hosting us for dinner tonight, ... "
I validated and swooned over H's access to so much power (!!!)
H seemed to want to stay around and talk and was laughing and jokey.
When I said "Enjoy your dinner tonight" he looked sad and said "It won't be that great".
The kids and I were off to obedience training with the dog and so H left.
So, a few more positive signs, but i'm not sure i'd go so far as to say his resolve is starting to erode....
BUT, I'm happy to bow before your superior experience - or probably just happy to take any positive perspective on my sitch!
hi nlw - haven't had time to read all of your thread, but will start on that today. the little i've read - you're right, we are both so much in the same place - and i'm so pleased that you came and found me:)
i know those mixed messages feel awful - i know exactly what you feel - it's because we look at everything and try to read some hope into every little thing.
it messes our heads up BAD. so you and i have to stop doing it , right. and get our sanity back
hope you're having a good day.
h's grandmother took some of my shawls to her get together with the old ladies this morning, and one of them bought one. it thrilled me - it was one ready for the sale on friday - but heck, i have time to make another to replace it.
every time you feel down - move to a better feeling thought - that's what i'm trying to do - it helps when i do it. it's an effort at first, but i imagine it will become a state of mind
((( )))
zig
Venting.
Tough start to the day with D16.
She is SO angry at me for being nice and friendly to H.
She insists I should make him do the right thing - i.e. MAKE him come back to us, give us more money to make our lives easier, or else rip him a new one for what he has done.
She threw a massive tantrum and refused to go to school.
Eventually talked her down but it ruined my day and my fragile equilibrium.
Then, this afternoon, H shows up to drop the kids off from school.
He's all friendly and nice and stops to do some homework.
Accepts my offer of a beer. I stay out of the way, but he is happy to call me in to discuss how the teacher is wrong with some of her maths answers (she wasn't, actually - one is not a prime number, it turns out, when I checked on the net).
Anyway, he jazzed the kids and the dog up and then left. And I have to cope with the aftermath. Two teenagers who are so wired from seeing their daddy and a puppy that's been put totally on edge. H skips off to do goodness knows what, and I'm left with school bags to put away, kids to calm down, a dog to pacify, dinner to cook and homework to supervise.
He asked if he could have his slippers as he left - saying that it's getting cold now.
I put a big smile on my face and went and got them and made a joke - i'd always told him he looked like Mr Toad in them, and he smiled.
Oh, we're all so happy!!!
What a crock.
I am so pi--ed off.
Hi Zig, Great news about your shawls!
And so good that you are able to make another - what focus and energy you have. I'm inspired by hearing from you!
Reading AliSuddenly's threads has made me realise the futility of reading hope into every little change in H's behaviour. This is going to be a long long process - if it EVER ends. All I hope at the moment is that I might be stabilising into a 'friendship' stage with my H.
This carries it's own problems - as I feel resentment rising when I consider that he is not being a good friend to me at all. BUT, I have to establish some sort of unconditional loving relationship and this seems a good way to start.
I'm trying to work on that as a goal.
So exciting about your sale on Friday. Yaay for you!!
NLW,
I'm sorry to hear about the rough morning you had with D16. I can only imagine the anger and sadness she feels right now. I imagine this is all very confusing and frustrating to her, to say the least. I hate that she took her anger out on you in the manner she did. The positive in this is that she felt comfortable letting it all out to you (even if it wasn't in the best way), which means she trusts you and feels safe with you. I hope after her tantrum she felt better. I do understand what you wrote about it ruining your day...I tell my kids all the time that when we have a tough morning, they forget about it within a minute of getting out of the car while it stays with me throughout my day!
With regard to the latest turn of events with your husband.... I suggest you do what is best for YOU and YOUR KIDS in the long run. I know your attorney is expensive, but it may be worth getting some professional advice. I like what another poster said about getting the finances separated ASAP so you don't keep running into the same problems.
While I know the idea of a separation agreement may not sit well with you, it establishes financial and visitation boundaries. I think your husband would benefit from having to respect boundaries. I may be wrong, but it seems he follows a cycle of not coming around for awhile and being distant/withdrawn, to needing something from you (car, money, etc). He starts coming around more and acting nice to you and then asks you for what he wants. When you hesitate or say you need time to consider his request, he gets angry and threatens to file divorce paperwork immediately. He then either bombards you with emails/texts/calls with threats about losing the house, losing the car, taking the kids out of their school or he withdraws from you and the kids until he gets what he wants. Does this sound about right? If so, is this working for YOU, and is it getting you closer to YOUR goals?
The separation agreement would also provide you with a schedule so he isn't in and out as he pleases, stirring the kids and dog up and then leaving. If the two of you could come up with an agreed upon schedule, you could be heading out of the house to GAL (looking all hot, being upbeat and fun and a bit mysterious about where you are going) when he arrives, and then it would be his responsibility to cook, help with homework, straighten up, spend time with the kids, etc. I think then, too, you wouldn't feel some of the resentment that you expressed.
Again, do what works for you and the kids right now. He told you he is still wanting a divorce, right? Then carry on with your life as if you are going to be divorced. Let him have a real taste of what being divorced is like. While you can't MAKE him do the things your daughter wants him to do, you can require him to honor and respect your boundaries.
All my best, ncl
I would try to separate your finances so you have more visibility. Set up separate and shared bank accounts and have him deposit into the shared account a regular amount on a given schedule to cover what he has agreed to cover. With everything else going on, you don't need this murky financial situation. I think you should take over paying the bills that directly impact you with H providing whatever funding he agreed to.
You will find the visibility and control reassuring.
Accuray
^^^^^ good advice!
oh nlw - sorry to hear you had such a rough day yesterday - my first thought when i read your post was - i have to remind nlw to take care of herself - unless you're in another country - you were up at 4.30 writing which means you weren't taking good care of yourself.
when i have a really rough day i get all worked up and then stay up really late too, and i'm trying to stop that too - i take my meditation cd to bed and meditate and fall asleep.
if you can look at it this way - at least d16 is letting it out and not holding it all in. i also thought - a dn this maybe way off what you need to hear - she's not mad at you, she's mad at h. could you consider asking her to express her feelings about the sitch to her dad.
i hope that you are feeling calmer now - it sounded like even though the whole thing left you raw, you handled it very well. it's okay to be really frustrated and p$ssed -
a couple of times when h was 'misbehaving" over at our house, instead of getting upset i just walked upto him calmly and said that he needed to leave . it shocked him, but i made it clear calmly that if he was going to come over, then he needed to treat s and me right.
it worked and he's much more respectful since then and more cognizant of how he is treating s.
if you do decide to do that, should probably tell you that after i said that there was about 15 mins of rage and accusations, during which i didn't say much and then he calmed down, and asked what i meant and then landed up feeling really regretful. both times, we were calm and happy s and i, when he came in and within mins s was struggling and so was i
so i hope you have a calmer day today - you may find that d16, after letting some of her own crazy feelings about all this out will be more loving and closer to you. i read somewhere that be grateful when some one is angry at you - because instead of them turning to despair, you can help them release some of the anger and frustration and hurt they are holding inside.
((((( ))))))
zig
Hi guys,
Thanks for your replies - I'm too tired to respond sensibly now but will get back later.
Had a long day - and it was exhausting dealing with H.
Here's the run down - just so I don't forget and, of course, it will all be of great interest to readers looking for sign-posts after H and I have reconciled in about 8 months time (I'm down to relying on the power of positive thinking!).
S13 had a big sports carnival/parents' lunch at school.
I rang H and reminded him that he'd agreed to go and asked if he could bring the beer (I organised all the rest). Told him when and where S13 would be playing football.
H missed the 1st game; 2nd (and last) game started and H still wasn't there so I texted him the new location (as he wouldn't have known where to go).
He eventually turned up and saw 15 mins of the game. He'd been watching his own football team play (he's out injured this week with sore ribs) in preference to watching his son.
He looked like a hobo in old T-shirt and torn jeans/sneakers. All other parents are very smart casual.
While waiting for lunch he told me that his best mate (the one he went to live with when he first moved out of home) is no longer working in the mining industry - as it's such a horror life-style. Apparently, it's lonely work and forces this guy to go on benders when he returns home from his shift every other week because he has to cram all his socialising into short periods of time (!!!!)
SO, the much touted high-life of mining no longer seems to look so good to H.
And his mate's recent 'promotion' that H was excited to tell me about seems to have amounted to naught. And the massive salary that he's been bragging about constantly ...... The job was so bad, the mate is now driving a truck delivering veggies.
Bit of a turn-around.
Anyway, we sat down to eat lunch but H wouldn't go to his car to get the beer he'd been asked to bring. He'd forgotten to put it on ice and it was tepid after several hrs in the trunk. Who would've thought that beer might have needed to be kept cold?
H complained a lot to me about D16 during lunch and how she is not doing well at school now. Apparently she is just lazy and not applying herself to homework.
He seems very angry at her.
He seemed pretty distant and withdrawn all day and left the lunch early and very abruptly - almost as if he was having a panic attack.
It happened just as I had gone over to speak to some parents whom I'd met at the recent quiz night - people H doesn't know. He left within a minute of me doing so, almost running away and saying just that he 'had to go'.
Later as I am sitting alone amongst all the other parent couples what song comes over the PA but "Caaaan't liiiive, if living is without yoooouu. Caaaan't liiiive; caaaan't live anymooooore".
Oh great. My arms and legs went numb. Literally.
Later that day, D16 rings H to ask him to drive her to the movies. It's 6.30pm but H says that he can't drive her because he has been drinking and is over the limit.
What a guy! What a dad!
I succumbed tonight and had a look at his football team's website. The pics of their recent team dinner show a group of 20-somethings out for a booze-up wearing dresses for a lark.
What a fun night was had by all when they decided to go out on the town in drag.
H wasn't in the pic - and I can only assume was not in fancy dress BUT OMG how can he be choosing to hang around with these young guys? He's 42 years old with a D16 and an S13.
How can this be happening? He is really in a scary place.
hi NLW - stay in a safe place in your mind - the details of what he's doing doesn't matter. only focusing on your feeling good does.
if you can look at it this way - maybe he has to go really down before he can come up - and down for each person is different.
i thought it was interesting that he's mad at d16 - maybe he is feeling her disapproval and unhappiness and that is making him very uncomfortable and so it's easier for him to be mad at her.
it's hard to see them in a good light when we feel that they are not being good parents. its hard to wrap our minds around that. sit down and think of some positive things that you all had together with h, and it will soften your mood a little and actually make YOU feel better
i love the way i'm giving you all this advice, considering that last week this time i was a raving mess!!
so next time i'm going nutty, copy and paste this back to me okay?
hugs and go do something fun with your kids today - even if it's only for 5 mins
zig
Hi ncl,
Thanks for the positive perspective on my D16's anger outbursts. I hadn't thought of it like this, but you're right, poor kid does have to vent somewhere. She has been acting better towards me since that morning, too.
Good to hear about the cycle you can see in my H's behaviour, too. I need to stop enabling this sort of thing. If I can just swing the money to get some legal clout behind my requests that we separate finances, things will get better, I'm sure.
On the point of him saying he still wants a D - he's not often used this term. His big word is separation. And he seems to want to keep working to his 5-year plan for keeping finances shared. But once or twice he has threatened D - if i don't do what he says with regard to money.
I swing between seeing his plan as an indication that he is still conflicted about really cutting loose from us, and seeing it as a selfish ploy to prop up his business.
Thanks for putting up with my wheel spinning. I feel that i am getting better at living life as if he's gone - not there completely yet, but more detached than i used to be.
Just trying to wait it all out and keep the road home paved and smooth. (It's all SO classic MLC). I do benefit so much from hearing how you see my sitch. So thanks again for giving so generously of your time and care.
Hugs, NLW
i read somewhere that be grateful when some one is angry at you - because instead of them turning to despair, you can help them release some of the anger and frustration and hurt they are holding inside.
((((( ))))))
zig
Zig, Thanks so much for your post to me. It really helped to hear what you had to say about my D16.
And yes - I think you're right, it is notable that H is now getting mad at her.
He is in a cycle of being very down and out of control again. It's easier for him to focus his anger on her at the moment, as I am no longer such an easy target.
And he is so guilty for what he is doing to the kids, I'm sure.
I hope things have been going well for you.
Best, NLW
Just got some interesting intell from a conversation with H over the phone.
He'd rung to ask (as he does every day) what time he could collect the kids from school.
I told him that i'd just heard some terrible news - a friend had lost her BFF to suicide.
Our friend was godmother to this woman's 11-year-old S.
The dead woman's H and S found her in their garage.
So profoundly sad.
When I told my H that the woman had done it because of gambling debts and said something like "as if money could ever be that important", my H reacted with:
"It's not the money, it's the judgement that other people put on you. That's what does it".
He was talking about himself. And, I presume, about the judgement he felt from me over being a failure and losing all of our money.
How to come back from this?
hi nlw -
h accused me of judging him during the first therapy session .
i was so upset about it - really really upset. and afterwards realized after talking to my friend and mil, that what he is really saying is that he is judging himself more than anyone else is judging him.
it maybe the same here - your h is talking more about how he is judging himself, i think.
as for "coming back from this" - don't take this burden on your self - it's not yours to carry. if your actions and words are not judgmental - you know that he's talking about himself.
my first reaction was also, how can i change that image in h's mind - but remember about not believing what they say - i think it really applies here.
they are scrambling hard to justify everything they are doing, and the longer the sitch has gone on, the more they are scrambling.
also - no assuming , remember - drives us crazy. so chalk the comment up to another attempt at him trying to provoke you (i bet , in the old days you would have both landed up arguing about it) or just unnerve you, let it go, and go back to doing your own thing.
btw - calling everyday, about picking up the kids?
is there a potential boundary setting scenario here on your part? can you be too busy to pick up the phone? or send a text earlier in the day and give him the time - there's an opportunity for a juicy 180 there on your part.
there's something about him calling everyday that smacks of keeping you pulled in and him calling the shots - especially over something like that , which could be handled differently?
hope you have a great day today
zig
Judgment, blaming, shame all can ruin a R.
I agree, NLW, it's not yours to carry. I think it's monumental that 1) he recognizes this and 2)he articulated it.
He's thinking.
I talk about this book a lot because it was such an a-ha moment for me-How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It This book gave me such a better understanding of how devastating blame and shame can be to men.
i've got to check out that book - but question - if they are blaming and shaming themselves - what's our role or response?
h consistently tells me how guilty he feels about what he is doing. i used to say "you shouldn't feel guilty, it is what it is.." now i don't really respond, but have to admit i'm thinking and pretty close to saying - well if you're feeling guilty isn't that a pretty good sign that you should stop doing it?
"you shouldn't feel guilty, it is what it is.." I'm sure you know how this sounds... I used to do the same thing, because I knew how everyone should feel about everything. It's their issue to fix and trying to fix it for them sends the message, "you can't do this, you need me to help."
Accuray wrote a little more about it here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...510#Post2241510
I wonder if the correct response to "i feel so guilty" should be something like, "that must be painful." End of subject. ???
thanks labug - as i said - "i used to say..."
after the discussion with kaffediem about enabling specific patterns, i stopped!!
thanks for the link - i really need to read those 2 books
NLW,
It comes down to what you want. If he's beating himself up and you agree you can say nothing.
Men want to feel like good providers, it's an evolutionary built-in thing versus something they can control.
So if your H lost all his and your money, and says he feels very guilty, feels like a failure, etc. there's a few ways you can go. Generally reinforcing his guilty feelings aren't going to help, but neither are false reassurances, and that leaves you in a tough place.
I think the key is to find anything you can truly admire about the situation and point it out. For instance, the fact that he acknowledges what's gone wrong and feels badly about it is actually a good thing. You could appreciate that he feels responsible for your financial situation, and tell him you're glad that he's thinking through things. It's a common story that many wildly successful people failed several times before they "made it big", and the lessons that those failures impart are what seems to provide the fuel for eventual success.
You can say things like "Look, we're in a tough spot (makes it a mutual issue, not just his). People run into financial problems every day for any number of reasons (normalizing). I'm sure you've learned a lot about your business and about yourself through this process, and I'm proud of you for that. It would be easy to make this everyone else's fault, or write it up to bad luck, but the fact that you're owning the situation shows character, and that makes me feel good."
Hopefully he volunteers what he's learned, what he plans to do differently, etc. etc., or maybe he'll share that he doesn't know what to do. The HUGE challenge for you here is to listen and NOT give advice. Sympathize or empathize, reinforce what's good, don't offer suggestions unless he asks for them.
I know this is very, very hard. My father-in-law lost all his money TWICE through really bad investment decisions and we'll probably end up supporting him and his two kids from his second marriage for years. It's very tempting to offer him advice or want to look over his shoulder at what he's doing, but that's just going to make him depressed and even less productive. I know how that goes. Protect yourself, be a good partner.
Accuray
The key here ^^^^ is that you're not telling him that what he's done is ok or not his fault. It is his fault and you have a right to be angry about it, particularly when combined with everything else. That being the case, stay away from the direct issue and look for tangential things to admire. One other idea is to admire the fact that he took some risk. That could have worked out really well. He certainly could have gotten a 9-5 job and slogged it out versus trying to be an entrepreneur. Taking that chance takes guts, and that's another thing that may be admirable.
Accuray
Wow, you guys - great input.
I'm off to work at the moment but will respond later when I've had time to digest.
This has helped me so much already.
As always, Thank You!