I haven't posted here much in the past several months. As I move closer to the 'piecing' phase of my R with my W (I hope), it has come to my attention that I need to learn about, understand, and work on, how I approach physical intimacy.
I have never really connected emotional intimacy with sex.
I have tried to organize in my head what I've learned so far so that I can apply it and work on it going forward in my life.
So far, it appears that women need emotional intimacy much more than I ever imagined. DUH, right?! Well, I guess, as with many things in my relationships, I didn't care much to really learn about this and understand it.
How do we as men make that connection with women? What do women really want in this area? And how does it affect physical intimacy for women?
So far this is how I've outlined the discussion. I'd love to hear thoughts on these things, have people add to them, modify them, tell me that they are cr*p, whatever... I am just trying to learn.
Women seem to need three major things:
1) security. Not financial security. Security in their man's love for them. Security in knowing that their man is a safe place to go to talk about their problems, their interests, their fears, past hurts, etc. Security in knowing that they will not be judged, criticized, or scoffed at. Security in knowing that their men love them no matter what.
2) Acceptance. Elevating a woman's beauty, her appearance, her worth, her value as a woman. Praise and affirmation. This seems to begin by understanding what our wife is feeling about herself. Does she feel good about the way that she looks? Understanding that our society puts impossible and unfair expectations on women to look a certain way... and that this may make them feel unacceptable. We men need to provide them with unconditional acceptance. Somehow show them that we have eyes for no one but her.
3) emotional connection. Help out with things that our wives do, such as dinner, with house chores... understand that these things are important to our wives, and recognize how important that they are and how much energy goes into getting them done. Talk with our wives. Care about the things that she cares about. Understand that the emotion that she shows when talking about things only tells us how important that these things are to her. Go below the surface of the issues of life. Share with her things about our own lives. Just listen and don't try to fix.
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Curious as to what others will say about this topic.
Denver
Have you read Passionate Marriage?
I just started reading it today and it explores intimacy. Can't say much more about it as I'm only on Chap 1.
I'll have to re-read your list tomorrow when rested.
Good to see you around Denver. You're right, it's been awhile! I'm very happy for you, buddy.
Thanks Alamo! No Labug, I have not read that. Reading "Rekindling the Romance" and "For Men Only" right now. I will start making a reading list thought! Thanks for the suggestion!
You've said some good things, Denver. I had to smile, b/c even though you've come a long way, as a man...you naturally have a tendency to want to put those physical things there when women are saying....no, that's not emotional intimacy.
I think women love for the man to do
all these things you've listed in all three categories, however, I believe that emotional intimacy is opening yourself up to let your mate see inside of you. I once heard the word intimacy broke down like "into me
see". In other words, "I'll pull back the physical layer of flesh and let you see into my heart". I'll not only listen to what
you share (which you pointed that out in your post), but I'll share with you.
Sharing your feelings about everything. Sharing your pain and your joy. Sharing your goals in life, etc. For men who do this, it may sound silly, but I am M to a man who has never talked to me about any of these things. Therefore, I tend to think there may be other men who do not know how to share their inter most personal selves.
Of course, in a M, you save the most intimate part of your "being" for your spouse.
For me, my LL is words of affirmation. I use to say it was emotional intimacy, b/c I was so starved for it that the lines became blurred. The emotional intimacy was what I needed, and the words of affirmation opens the path to the intimacy....for me.
Women tie their emotions into who they are as a woman and if she is not receiving the intimacy from her H, then she
may become very vulnerable to another man.
I also think that emotional intimacy is the things you said about building each others ego and sense of security. Women need to hear more than those three word ILY. She wants to hear why do you love me, how did you feel the first time you saw me, tell me more. For women, it doesn't matter if you've told her that hundreds of times, she still has an emotional need for it.
I always appreciate my H helping with the household chores, but it does not tell me what's in his heart. It's like giving a physical embrace, but it's still not sharing inter feelings. Both of these things can be a LL, but it doesn't mean it is emotional intimacy.
I know females must be frustrating to men, b/c we are complex and we do
seem to be all about "feelings". But IMHO, if a woman has that special connection with her H, that makes the MR stronger than just about anything he could do for her. (But don't misunderstand and think I'm saying he shouldn't do the other things Denver has pointed out.) And, it's not all one-sided, b/c both benifit from the emotional intimacy
into the physcial. That's what makes it complete.
Thanks Sandi! I think that post was great! I also think that most men can probably benefit from reading things like your post and some of these books. Maybe other men here will disagree with me here, but generally speaking we men do not understand how women are wired and even when told or have our first encounter with it, I think that our first reaction, 'man, that's ridiculous', and blow it off. In other words, we think that our women should learn to be like us rather than thinking that maybe we should learn about women, what makes them tick, and what is going to make them happy. So, that's what I'm trying to do right now.
I'm not familiar with your sitch, Denver, but I'm curious how you and your W feel about counseling.
Also - I'm delighted to hear a story about someone moving closer to their S instead of farther away. The board should have an honor role for those who have made it.
I'm beginning to see that making it is the exception.
I'm beginning to see that making it is the exception.
Well, in fairness to MWD and DB, let's face it: people's marriages are usually already at the "CRISIS" point by the time someone lands here, usually reeling. Infidelity, drug & alcohol problems, emotional abuse, financial crises, etc. . . . many, many of these marriages are "dead men walking" by the time someone turns here (or any marital message forum) for help.
Starsky
Good to see you Denver...Especially with good news on your sitch.
I'm with Labug, currently reading "The Passionate Marriage". I'm also listening to the Keeping Love Alive audiotapes from MWD.
I have a lot to learn!
Hope you make progress!
Good thread Denver. I sure as heck don't have it figured out or I probably wouldn't have ended up here in the first place. I think at one point in my M, I had realized it wasn't necessary 100% a low drive on my W's part, that it did have something to do with that emotional connection. Unfortunately, it may have been too late at that point. I'll admit, too, I was not having the easiest time figuring out how it worked for my W.
I appreciate all of you ladies that have posted here. I am learning a lot from all of you.
I certainly still have a lot to learn.
I think I'm at the point where I know where I need to be, but the hard part is figuring out how to get there.
AlwaysTrying - My W began individual counseling for herself about 5 weeks ago. It seems to be helping her tremendously. She and I went to a weekend marital retreat that she suggested weekend before last. We both know that marriage counseling will be necessary if and when we get to the point that she feels comfortable throwing caution to the wind and committing to the M. While I think that she has made a decision to reconcile somewhere in her head, I think that she is still afraid that she will change her mind. So, she is not comfortable announcing that she is committed. If you read my threads, you will see that she has made the mistake of telling me that she was ready to commit in the past only to backslide. There is a lot of hurt that she needs to overcome. She is working through being able to choose to forgive me, even reading a book on the subject right now. But it is hard for her. And I understand that. This time does seem different though. We shall see.
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I think Starsky's take on the success rate here on the boards is dead on. People may buy the books before they get to stage 4 critical with their marriages and there is probably a much higher success rate. But I think that it is much more likely that people end up here only when their marriages are hanging by a thread... when things are desperate. Thus, the success rate that you see here on the boards is much lower.
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Brian - Thank you! I needed to get away from the boards for a while.
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After divorce I finally figured out why. Everything outside of the bedroom translated in. He treated me poorly outside, constantly criticizing me, putting me down, bluntly approaching me on things he could have been much more tactful about. So in the bedroom I became self-conscious waiting to be criticized, scared of doing something "wrong" like he always claimed I did outside of the bedroom.
Turns out the poor emotional connection was the cause. I am not low drive, it turns out.......
Kudos to you Denver. You seem pretty in tune with a woman's emotional needs. You seem to be listening to your wife and paying attention. For years, I didn't know men could do that:) It's one thing to not understand how women are wired. It's another thing to not try to figure it out. I wish you the best of luck with your M.
Thank you gabby. I would NOT say that I am in tune with anything about women. But I am trying. and I am listening to my W. That is all very new to me. I wish that I had learned to do that long ago.
Your story of how it was for you in your M sounds very much like I believe my W to have felt. Unfortunately, I did not treat her well, respect her, and was often critical of her. I think that it resulted in a very poor emotional bond between she and I.
This is why I began this thread. Why I am trying to learn about emotional intimacy as it relates to physical intimacy. I don't want that to be an issue any longer if I am lucky enough to continue to progress towards reconciliation with my W. Plus, I have a feeling that many men here can learn from this because I think that it is probably a common problem in marriage... especially those that end up here.
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I with you jbnati! We need to figure out how to get there so that this issue is not a problem in the future.
That what this process is about whether or not we save our marriages... improving ourselves for the future.
Women are stupid. They expect we understand.
Men are stupid. We expect them to understand.
‎"Self-love is self-confining. When couples learn to expand their sympathies, and give up limiting them to themselves – whether individually, or to themselves as a couple or a family – they may transform their relationship, and the emotional disharmony that selfishness has produced, into a relationship of selfless, divine love.
Selfless love is the key. Couples that at first defined their relationship in terms of “me and thee,” later, with the growth of understanding, learn to think unitively. Human love, thus, can expand into the love of God.
Without God, human love is never perfect. No marriage is truly fruitful without the “secret ingredient” of divine love. Earthly love that reaches not past the beloved to embrace divinity is not real love at all. It is ego-worship, selfish because rooted in desire.
True love emanates from God. Only hearts that have been purified by self-expansion can embrace the fullness of that love. In expansion, the heart’s feelings become channels through which God’s love flows out to all the world."
P.Yogananda
I probably define God different than others. We probably all have our own definition.
A truly healthy relationship are two people who live together, but also not dependent. We are not just "we". Never. We can't addict ourself to an R.
And if an R is unbalanced. Either direction. It's not healthy.
Seems to me a lot of people here were the R managers. Other person gets pissed about. Leaves. Then we try to give them power back to fix it.
I don't see that as a long term fix. There is no real power or control over the other person in the first place. The illusion in either direction is not healthy.
If we simply live life in a way we know is true. And another person is doing the same. Those two can live happily ever after. If not. We are forcing it. Expecting it. Faking it. Depending on it.
I will always say to anyone just starting this journey. Throw everything out the window and start with nothing more than finding a center for yourself. Without that. Everything else is fake. Temporary.
Peace all. And Denever. SERIOUSLY hope the best for you two. It can be done.
Great advice...beginner's mind.
CS's words never fail to inspire. Nice to hear from you man.
"Selfless love is the key"... YES
...something that was taught at the marital retreat that I went to with W was the idea of "oneness". That to have a successful marriage, we must towards THAT with our spouse. That every marriage is either moving towards "oneness", or is drifting toward isolation.
"Oneness" in marriage is only possible only when we consider our spouse before we consider ourselves.
Why have I made some of the recent choices that I have CS? For THAT. THAT is the type of marriage that I want to have.
"Oneness" grows as we believe that our spouse is a gift from God. And like CS, I have a different view as to what that means. But I believe it.
Growing towards "oneness" makes it possible for two spouses, as a couple, to become more than they ever could have been apart.
How a couple resolves conflict reflects the state of their "oneness". Conflict occurs when our personal desires are not fulfilled... when we don't get what we want. Our unfulfilled desires may result in anger. Resolving conflict requires forgiveness. But forgiveness does not mean an automatic restoration of trust. That takes time and consistency of action.
"Oneness" in marriage consists of 3 ingredients:
1) "Extravagant love" - Which is:
*exclusive: one person has your heart for a lifetime
*expressed: it is repeated often through words and actions
*extraordinary: it places your spouse's needs above your own
extravagant love is a choice, not a feeling... it leads to genuine intimacy.
2) the habit of forgiveness - without it there is bitterness, but with it, your marriage will have true security.
3) Enthusiastic encouragement: it believes in and motivates your spouse to grow. It openly affirms your spouse, avoids critical words, and maintains a positive attitude, EVEN in hard times.
Can we make our spouse want and aspire for the same? No, we cannot. We cannot control their thoughts, choices, or actions.
But we can INSPIRE change through our own actions and our own choices.
"At the essence of every woman’s heart is the divine feminine. It contains everything that has ever been beautiful, or lovely, or inspiring, in any woman, anywhere, at any time. The very essence of every woman’s heart is the peak of wisdom, the peak of inspiration, the peak of sexual desirability, the peak of soothing, healing love. The peak of everything. But it’s protected, for good reason, by a series of concentric walls. To move inwardly from one wall to the next requires that you intensify your capacity to devotion, and as you do so, you are rewarded with Grace. This is not something you can negotiate verbally with a woman. She doesn’t even know consciously how to open those gates herself. They are opened magically and invisibly by the keys of worship.
If you stand on the outside of the outermost wall, all you have available to you, like many other unfortunate men, is pornography. For $1.99 a minute, you can see her breasts, maybe her vagina, and you can stimulate yourself in a sad longing for deeper love.
Step through another gate, and she will show you her outer gift-wrapping. She’ll look at you with a certain twinkle in her eye. She’ll answer your questions coyly. She’ll give you just the faintest hint that there is more available.
Step through another gate with your commitment, with your attention, with the small seedlings of devotion, and she’ll open her heart to you more. She’ll share with you her insecurities, the way that she’s been hurt, her deepest longings. Some men will back away at this point. They realize that the price they must pay to go deeper is more than they are willing to give. They start to feel a responsibility. But for those few who step though another gate, they come to discover her loyalty, her willingness to stick with you no matter what, her willingness to raise your children, stick up for you in conversation, and, if you are lucky, even pick up your dirty socks now and then. And so it goes on. You’ve got the gist by now.
Somewhere around the second wall from the center, she casts the veils of her personality aside, and shows you that she is both a human being and also a portal into something much greater than that. She shows you a wrath that is not hers, but all women’s. She shows you a patience that is also universal. She shows you her wisdom. At this point you start to experience the archetypes of women, who have been portrayed as goddesses and mythological figures in every tradition.
Then, at the very center, in the innermost temple itself, all the layers of your devotion are flooded with reward all at once. You discover the very essence of the feminine, and in a strange way that is not exactly romantic, but profoundly sacred all the same, you realize that you could have got here with any woman if you had just been willing to pass through all the layers of initiation. Any woman is every woman, and every woman is any woman at the same time. When you love a woman completely, at the very essence of her being, this is the one divine feminine flame. It is what has made every woman in history beautiful. It’s the flame behind the Mona Lisa, and Dante’s Beatrice, and yes, also Penelope Cruz and Heidi Klum. You discover the magic ingredient which has lead every man to fall in love with a woman.
When you learn how to pay attention to the essence of the feminine in this way, you fall to the floor in full body prostration, tears soaking your cheeks and clothes, and you wonder how you could have ever taken Her, in all of Her forms, for granted even for a second."
~ Arjuna Ardagh
Just my opinion....
take it for what it is worth
there is a big difference between f*cking and love
for most of my life I was very good at f*cking someone
I knew the right positions, noises, and the best way to get them in my bed
I had very satisfying relationships based on very good sex and the loss of myself and the morphing of me into someone I thought they wanted me to be
not fair to me or to them
it was very detached and unmeaningful and definitely not a way to connect on an emotional level
emotional connections, for me, came from other things:
hugs around my waist as I was making dinner
remembering my favorite flower
or
my favorite song
small tiny things because I felt I deserved nothing more
after I learned more about who I was and what I deserved...became more comfortable in my own skin and learned I was completely fine...good even...on my own
I was able to find someone who was there through the lights and the darks in my personality
sex is now a way to express love (although not always...sometimes it is still about lust which is OK)
but the emotional connection comes from shared feelings
a shared connection or passion about each other
he is passionate about me...not just for me
he is passionate about what I love and what I want to do...not because he wants to be just like me but because he is genuinely interested in WHO I am...he delights in knowing me deeper
he delights in seeing me smile or seeing me become animated about a thought
he challenges me
he makes me think about who I am and who I want to be
he is constantly growing which in turn helps me grow
he does NOT want me to be like him
he wants me to be like me!!!
he is safe...a safe place to fall, a safe place to grow, a safe place to try new things.
does he have a brother? ;-)
Just my opinion....
take it for what it is worth
there is a big difference between f*cking and love
for most of my life I was very good at f*cking someone
I knew the right positions, noises, and the best way to get them in my bed
I had very satisfying relationships based on very good sex and the loss of myself and the morphing of me into someone I thought they wanted me to be
not fair to me or to them
it was very detached and unmeaningful and definitely not a way to connect on an emotional level
emotional connections, for me, came from other things:
hugs around my waist as I was making dinner
remembering my favorite flower
or
my favorite song
small tiny things because I felt I deserved nothing more
after I learned more about who I was and what I deserved...became more comfortable in my own skin and learned I was completely fine...good even...on my own
I was able to find someone who was there through the lights and the darks in my personality
sex is now a way to express love (although not always...sometimes it is still about lust which is OK)
but the emotional connection comes from shared feelings
a shared connection or passion about each other
he is passionate about me...not just for me
he is passionate about what I love and what I want to do...not because he wants to be just like me but because he is genuinely interested in WHO I am...he delights in knowing me deeper
he delights in seeing me smile or seeing me become animated about a thought
he challenges me
he makes me think about who I am and who I want to be
he is constantly growing which in turn helps me grow
he does NOT want me to be like him
he wants me to be like me!!!
he is safe...a safe place to fall, a safe place to grow, a safe place to try new things.
Just an absolutely lovely post Figgeroni. Thank you for sharing.
Hey Denver!
You've been a great help to me in my sitch so hopefully I can return the favor. I can at least try
It's taken me a bit of time to read up on your sitch, 16 months of threads takes a while to get through, but I'm caught up on it. I have to tell you, you and my H appear to be very similiar creatures, the main difference in our sitch's is that we find ourselves on the opposite sides of the same coin.
But I can at least offer you a woman's perspective:
My M was most definitely a SSM. I was the LD partner & H was the HD partner. My interpretation on what was going wrong is that H needs physical intimacy to generate a desire for emotional intimacy and I need emotional intimacy to generate a desire for physical intimacy.
My H just does not/did not get this, as I suspect is the case for many men.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want to hear about his wishes, hopes and dreams.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want to see his vulnerable side and know about his stresses, anxieties and fears.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want to hear about the minutia of your day, what small thing made you smile, what small thing irritated you.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want you to want to listen without judgement and hear about my hopes, wishes and dreams.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want you to want to see without judgement my vulerable side and know about my stresses, my anxieties and my fears.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want you to want to hear without judgement about the minutia of my day, to know about what small thing made me smile, what small thing irritated me.
All these things being said, there's a number of things that my H could and would do that would make sure that sex was completely out of the question:
~Make an insensitive or mean remark and not apologize for it when I've told him it's hurt my feelings.
~Tell me I'm being too sensitive and shouldn't feel a certain way about something. Never argue with someone's feelings. They know how they're feeling better than you do.
~Barely acknowledge my existence for the evening (whether at home or at a party/event).
Yes, I and most women are more than capable of having and desiring sex merely as a physical act. What my H, and I suspect many men fail to acknowledge, is that a woman's desire for sex increases tenfold when there's an emotionally intimate connection between themselves and their partner.
Hey Denver!
You've been a great help to me in my sitch so hopefully I can return the favor. I can at least try
It's taken me a bit of time to read up on your sitch, 16 months of threads takes a while to get through, but I'm caught up on it. I have to tell you, you and my H appear to be very similiar creatures, the main difference in our sitch's is that we find ourselves on the opposite sides of the same coin.
But I can at least offer you a woman's perspective:
My M was most definitely a SSM. I was the LD partner & H was the HD partner. My interpretation on what was going wrong is that H needs physical intimacy to generate a desire for emotional intimacy and I need emotional intimacy to generate a desire for physical intimacy.
My H just does not/did not get this, as I suspect is the case for many men.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want to hear about his wishes, hopes and dreams.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want to see his vulnerable side and know about his stresses, anxieties and fears.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want to hear about the minutia of your day, what small thing made you smile, what small thing irritated you.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want you to want to listen without judgement and hear about my hopes, wishes and dreams.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want you to want to see without judgement my vulerable side and know about my stresses, my anxieties and my fears.
When I say I want and need emotional intimacy, I want you to want to hear without judgement about the minutia of my day, to know about what small thing made me smile, what small thing irritated me.
All these things being said, there's a number of things that my H could and would do that would make sure that sex was completely out of the question:
~Make an insensitive or mean remark and not apologize for it when I've told him it's hurt my feelings.
~Tell me I'm being too sensitive and shouldn't feel a certain way about something. Never argue with someone's feelings. They know how they're feeling better than you do.
~Barely acknowledge my existence for the evening (whether at home or at a party/event).
Yes, I and most women are more than capable of having and desiring sex merely as a physical act. What my H, and I suspect many men fail to acknowledge, is that a woman's desire for sex increases tenfold when there's an emotionally intimate connection between themselves and their partner.
Thank you for your response and your thoughts on this subject Dory. It seems pretty much unanimous on how women view this. And of course it is in line with everything that I am reading elsewhere.
I really, REALLY wish that I had taken the time to educate myself on this subject a long time ago.
And yeah, I pretty much did the exact opposite of everything that you just described Dory. I think that there should be a mandatory R/M class that we have to take to graduate from high school! Either that, or they should give men a manual on women when we turn 21 or somethin! LOL
Thanks again!
Denver
Either that, or they should give men a manual on women when we turn 21 or somethin
They're still writing it....
: )
Some GREAT posts to learn from here D.... ( heya Fig ! )
Watch and listen, and you will learn the rest....
LOL Mach! Still writing it indeed...
Bottom line - if you share your feelings with your W, and allow her to share hers with you that will be her intimacy. Enough of that kind of intimacy, and she will almost automatically want to express that in a physical manner because her love will grow a great deal
One thing I also find to be exceedingly admirable, is if my H 'protected' the relationship. Protection in terms preserving the boundaries of the relationship. So, when the H stands up for the relationship in any way, shape or form - in an
assertive manner, it is so attractive. That is guaranteed to get you so many brownie points - her love will shoot through the roof. Think parents, friends, other people - as there are always 'threats' lurking around that could use a knight to keep them at bay.
Have fun
Hey Dory, I knew I liked you. Thanks for putting all those things in words. Excellent!
I had a talk with S22 just last week...I had a confrontation with a male (probably 6'2 300#) neighbor about a dog. Not even my dog. He was very angry and was going to get a gun and "put a bullet in the dog's head" and it escalated from there. I was calm throughout, you could even say I DBd him.
After, I walked in the house and had a total tearful meltdown. I said "he scared me." S22 was at a loss and said things like Oh mom, he's not going to do anything.
After we were both calmer, we had a talk about feelings and that even tho he didn't have the same feelings I did, my feelings about the incident were still valid. He didn't need to fix anything or try to make me feel better, but rather listen and say something like "I'm sorry you're so scared."
Then I got up and hugged him and said, "This is what I really need."
Hope it was a teachable moment.
Very teachable moment Labug. Your son is lucky.
Thanks for you thoughts Yankee... I think that I'm starting to understand a bit.
One thing I also find to be exceedingly admirable, is if my H 'protected' the relationship. Protection in terms preserving the boundaries of the relationship. So, when the H stands up for the relationship in any way, shape or form - in an assertive manner, it is so attractive. That is guaranteed to get you so many brownie points - her love will shoot through the roof. Think parents, friends, other people - as there are always 'threats' lurking around that could use a knight to keep them at bay.
BINGO.Starsky
"Yes, I and most women are more than capable of having and desiring sex merely as a physical act. What my H, and I suspect many men fail to acknowledge, is that a woman's desire for sex increases tenfold when there's an emotionally intimate connection between themselves and their partner."
From Dory - without a doubt one of the most incisive things I've read on here. I was a woman that thought men & women were able to approach sex with the same mindset. NOW I understand that is not the case & never will be!
ND
"Yes, I and most women are more than capable of having and desiring sex merely as a physical act. What my H, and I suspect many men fail to acknowledge, is that a woman's desire for sex increases tenfold when there's an emotionally intimate connection between themselves and their partner."
From Dory - without a doubt one of the most incisive things I've read on here. I was a woman that thought men & women were able to approach sex with the same mindset. NOW I understand that is not the case & never will be!
ND
I certainly didn't mean to cut anyone down by making that remark! I apologize to ND & anyone else I may have offended.
I was speaking from my own experience in my M and shouldn't have made such a generalization. My H and I have had this discussion/arguement over and over to the point of redundancy - and for the life of me, I could not get him to understand that closing himself off from me had become pathological, that he was not only hurting me with his behaviour, but also himself. I assume that it was my frustration with my own situation with my H that directed me to word it the way I did.
I should not have worded it the way I had and not used any generalizations. I was triggered without realising it. Again, I'm sorry to anyone who was offended by my words.
Dory, I'm not sure, but I THINK that those comments were meant as a COMPLIMENT to you?
Starsky
Ummmm, ok...
Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of incisive? I've always understood it to mean direct & cutting, I'm going to have to google it.
LOL! Now I'm totally confused!
Either way, I probably should've spoken strictly from my own perspective and not made any generalizations.
Yeah Dory, I read it as meaning "insightful" in the context.
on a somewhat related note.
There was an interesting article on Cracked.com (I know it's a humor website)
The article was entitled 5 Ways Modern Men Are Trained to Hate Women.
It was funny, but did contain a couple of nuggets. I won't link to it, but it's easy enough to find.
"Yes, I and most women are more than capable of having and desiring sex merely as a physical act. What my H, and I suspect many men fail to acknowledge, is that a woman's desire for sex increases tenfold when there's an emotionally intimate connection between themselves and their partner."
From Dory - without a doubt one of the most incisive things I've read on here. I was a woman that thought men & women were able to approach sex with the same mindset. NOW I understand that is not the case & never will be!
ND
I certainly didn't mean to cut anyone down by making that remark! I apologize to ND & anyone else I may have offended.
I was speaking from my own experience in my M and shouldn't have made such a generalization. My H and I have had this discussion/arguement over and over to the point of redundancy - and for the life of me, I could not get him to understand that closing himself off from me had become pathological, that he was not only hurting me with his behaviour, but also himself. I assume that it was my frustration with my own situation with my H that directed me to word it the way I did.
I should not have worded it the way I had and not used any generalizations. I was triggered without realising it. Again, I'm sorry to anyone who was offended by my words.
Pretty sure that it was a compliment Dory.
Hiya Mach (standing on tiptoes waving)
I guess the biggest thing is to TALK...
like
you know...
good old fashioned...laying it out there with what you want
because,
let's face it
no one (male or female) is a mind reader
and
there are sometimes when I want something solved and sometimes when I want someone to listen
Cori and I are pretty straight forward now
mostly because I am too old and tired to try to dance my way through things
so I will say things...I want to talk to you and I want you to help me come up with solutions. Here is the lowdown......
or
please just shut up and listen because I don't want you to fix it but I want you to make me feel better about it (or just listen to me vent or whatever)
he does the same
we get compliments on how compatible we are all the time
basically because we are blunt about what we need from the other person when we need it
because...if I am afraid to ask for it, from my partner...then there is a problem bigger than simply the point I want them to get
there are sometimes when I want something solved and sometimes when I want someone to listen
Cori and I are pretty straight forward now
mostly because I am too old and tired to try to dance my way through things
so I will say things...I want to talk to you and I want you to help me come up with solutions. Here is the lowdown......
or
please just shut up and listen because I don't want you to fix it but I want you to make me feel better about it (or just listen to me vent or whatever)
he does the same
Or.....
I ask first...
Do you need me to just listen ? Or are we coming up with solutions ???
Either way....pretty freakin cool...
Thanks Fig. It seems that talking and, even more so, listening, is the key here.
Hi Denver,
I think it's a great topic for discussion. Like anything, it's way more complicated than it would first appear. Passionate Marriage does define intimacy as making yourself vulnerable, or open to possible ridicule and rejection. It's putting yourself out there. However, it talks about it in the context of being "differentiated" or your own person in the marriage, not co-dependent, which is to say that if you make yourself vulnerable and the other person rejects you, that's their problem and you do not define or measure yourself by their reaction to you.
i.e. Be completely good by yourself, AND be willing to share yourself. It's really important to recognize the role of emotional independence and then layer on top of that a decision to share with the other person, versus *needing* to to make yourself feel whole.
If you look at that a different way, the things that you and Dory have said women want are true -- however, if they are delivered from a subserviant, co-dependent man, that's not going to lead to physical intimacy (i.e. it's a turn-off). It's the combination of having a man they *respect* coupled with emotional intimacy that is the key. If you pander to your spouse too much, it's a turn-off. There has to be a balance between strong and independent and warm and fuzzy, and if you go a little bit outside of the proper balance one way or the other and don't self-correct, problems will result.
It's figuring out how to walk this line that makes it so complicated.
Accuray
Great post Accuray. And it's clear that I went WAY to far to the 'strong and independent' side of things in my R/M with my W prior to her leaving me. Not going too far to the other side has been my challenge for the past 16 months. Tough to do when you are trying to prove that you are capable of not being overly strong, independent, and controlling. It is a tough balance to achieve for sure.
Thanks again!
Denver
Hi Denver,
I think it's a great topic for discussion. Like anything, it's way more complicated than it would first appear. Passionate Marriage does define intimacy as making yourself vulnerable, or open to possible ridicule and rejection. It's putting yourself out there. However, it talks about it in the context of being "differentiated" or your own person in the marriage, not co-dependent, which is to say that if you make yourself vulnerable and the other person rejects you, that's their problem and you do not define or measure yourself by their reaction to you.
i.e. Be completely good by yourself, AND be willing to share yourself. It's really important to recognize the role of emotional independence and then layer on top of that a decision to share with the other person, versus *needing* to to make yourself feel whole.
If you look at that a different way, the things that you and Dory have said women want are true -- however, if they are delivered from a subserviant, co-dependent man, that's not going to lead to physical intimacy (i.e. it's a turn-off). It's the combination of having a man they *respect* coupled with emotional intimacy that is the key. If you pander to your spouse too much, it's a turn-off. There has to be a balance between strong and independent and warm and fuzzy, and if you go a little bit outside of the proper balance one way or the other and don't self-correct, problems will result.
It's figuring out how to walk this line that makes it so complicated.
Accuray
This is one of the very best posts I've ever read on here.
Starsky
Wow, thanks Starsky, I wish I could say I came across that realization easily, but unfortunately not
I also wish I could say I've figured out how to walk that line -- I'm getting there. Like Denver, I was too far on the strong and independent side, and then after the bomb swung too far on the warm and fuzzy side. I do feel like I'm centering in on it, and the closer I get the better I feel.
Accuray
Thanks Fig. It seems that talking and, even more so, listening, is the key here.
Denver,
When has the key ever been anything different?
Sometimes you still make me...sigh...
LOL! I know.
I LOVE this thread...
warms the soul to read the INTIMATE thoughts of good men,
and to see the feedback and witness their taking it all in.
it's a nice thing to see.
thanks Denver
and as my Brooklyn BIL would say "and to the rest of you's all, thanks to you's too!"
Wow, thanks Starsky, I wish I could say I came across that realization easily, but unfortunately not
I also wish I could say I've figured out how to walk that line -- I'm getting there. Like Denver, I was too far on the strong and independent side, and then after the bomb swung too far on the warm and fuzzy side. I do feel like I'm centering in on it, and the closer I get the better I feel.
Accuray
Oh, I didn't figure it out either. Hardly.
Starsky
Accuray...
Right on...
I think an important thing to remember to is that we own our own part.
like...
I can't expect Cori to make me feel beautiful and worthwhile and happy etc
I need to feel those things on my own 1st
his job is then to REMIND me that I feel this way
a sappy guy can't do that because he is too needy himself
a super independent detached guy can't do that because he doesn't think I "need to be reminded
(and vice versa of course)