well i'm starting a new thread as labug advised
wish i knew how to put the link for my first thread in here - can someone tell me how to do that, please?
i'm going to see this new thread as the beginning of taking care of myself - symbolic like.
maybe it's timely that it is happening at the same time
for the link, I just go back to the first page from the first thread and highlight the URL address at the top of the browser. Copy it and then past in your post here.
I think each thread is a milestone and definitely worth the time to evaluate where you started & where you're at. That's part of working on ourselves.
thanks ces - i think it worked
and yes - i will try to see it positively - a good milestone
sheesh - i'm definitely on the downswing of the roller coaster ride here - need to go do something to get myself out of this helpless state
haven't checked in for a couple of days - really been focusing on restructuring my days and sticking to a tight schedule, as the therapist suggested.
things are going much easier in that dept., but sadly i still carry H in my head almost non- stop - well, maybe a slight improvement.
H has skyped us twice now, the second call being quite upsetting to both S and myself. he is staying with friends who have a 7 yr old boy - and he has had the sweet little boy there on the skype with him non-stop for both calls and S is not very happy to watch them together being really affectionate to each other. to me it looks like he is using the boy as a buffer between himself and us because he can't really face us
he is also acting EXTREMELY tense and odd - which is what he has done when he is with ow on previous trips - and that really affects S to see his dad behave that way.
when i see H like that, that's when it hits me a) that he is under this HUGE psychological stress and b) i can't even recognize this person i'm looking at.
so in other words, i'm pretty sure ow is there with him - and he's feeling massively guilty about it and thus all this behavior in front of S.
i myself have suspected this ever since the trip was planned over 2 months ago, as he was adamant that S and i couldn't go with him (a couple of weeks before he left i told him that i was so sorry that we weren't going be there and watch him giving his first public presentation at an international seminar - and how much of a big deal it was and we had worked for yrs towards him getting there... and he just about fell apart)
but i'm proud to say that i am more indifferent to her possible presence there for myself, but for my S - i am really upset that he has to endure this - he is so agitated after.
i'm not sure whether to send H an email about this, or to just see what happens in the next couple of calls, or to just turn the phone and skype off.
i myself actually don't want to DO anything for once - nothing at all - and just see what happens. but i realize that would mean not taking care of S's well-being and letting him endure something painful
i decided that i would just wait a couple of days and hope the insight comes to me - right now, anything i do comes from a place of anger (for son's sake) and i need to get myself out of that.
i can understand that there are certain things i need to experience and lessons to be learned for myself in this sitch - but right now i am really battling with why S has to have those painful experiences too.
My opinion: If this is hurting your son, would you let anyone else hurt him in this way?
Can you set a clear boundary without assigning blame?
I agree. Your son comes first. Could you rehearse what you want to say here? You have a clear goal and you know you don't want it to come from a place of anger. A good place to start.
Mimi
hi everyone - i'm sorry i didn't see your posts earlier (for some reason they din't come to my email as they usually do) when i would have had time to answer and practice - will have to wait until later tonight after S has gone to bed.
H left a message this evening wanting to skype, but i missed the call and he doesn't seem to be near the computer when i tried him back.
S is with grandparents for another hour, and i thought - oh great, i have the chance to talk to him alone and let him know what the situation is.
but maybe it's better i practice on you guys first (grin - thanks for the offer) before i say anything to him.
will write more later
thanks once again for being here for me
zig
thanks mimivac - i sent him a quick email this morning saying we need to talk before his next skype session with son, and asked how can we arrange that.
i've decided to keep the conversation light and just say casually that S is having a really hard tome with a couple of things - that the little boys presence is upsetting to him, and even thoughH's intention is that they would get to know each other, for S it is a matter of watching his dad whom he is missing insanely having fun with another kid.
then i'm going to say that S really needs some stability in this situation and if H could let him know specifically which day he's going to call and if he gives him a time, then to stick to it, or at least warn him that it may be not be exact.
if he starts getting defensive or pissed at me, i think i may just get a little "tough" and point out that it's hard enough for S to deal with the fact that he's watching his father act in such a bizarre off the wall way, (and if H has problems with facing us, he should put them aside and at least pretend to be okay so S doesn't have to deal with watching him act like that) - he doesn't need the additional stress of having this happen in front of another child and then deal in between with wondering constantly when he's going to hear from his dad.
do you think it's okay or appropriate to even imply or point out how bizarre he is acting to him?
i haven't, when it's happened before, but now i'm getting seriously worried for S's sake - he is experiencing a situation that when his dad is here he's sort of normal, but when he's off on a trip he gets very very different and almost unrecognizable.
and S has a trip to compare to, where H was abroad for 2 weeks last may, which he remembers extremely well, because we skyped everyday with H and the experience was warm and wonderful and tons of fun and made us all feel very close together and we really enjoyed. (after H came back from that S tried to get him to promise that he would never go away for so long again, so it had been really hard on him anyway)
i can't help seeing the crazy contrast - and wondering how S is dealing with this change
ah - this is very difficult for me right now - i almost wish i could go numb and not feel too much - and stop thinking, just for a few mins to get a break
yes it was labug - thank you - i am going to read it several times
how are you doing? - i suddenly - with my new schedule - don't have much time to sit and read - which is good in one way, but i could sure use more info about how people handle different situations
Just to add to your thoughts. And please know I don't believe myself to be an expert, I post here to help work through my own stuff and boundaries is a big one for me. I've read a lot about the subject, even took a class on it last summer but applying it in everyday situations is difficult.
Is the topic up for discussion with H? Do you want to discuss or do you want to set a boundary. When women communicate we tend to want to build consensus, woo people to our side and not upset anyone. That makes us feel better and in some situations that is helpful.
With boundaries, you are setting a limit and are not asking the other person to be OK with it. Most often they aren't. That's where I get tripped up, I don't want anyone mad at me.
I guess what that means is boundaries should only be set in those instances where I can't allow someone to cross a line because in doing so they would hurt me or someone I have a duty to protect.
H, when you skype with (other kid) in the room with you it hurts S.
You could see what he says to that. If he's not agreeable then where do you go?
i'm not sure where to go - i expect some or a lot or no protesting - i simply don't know where his mind is at, with him being so far away and practically no contact .
i think i'll just have to feel it out, and stay really calm and firm
he hasn't replied to either of my emails which is not a good sign - i know he checks his emails all the time, and he's emailed his mom and one of our friends back right away - so it is making me a bit nervous.
all i wrote was could we talk one on one before the next time you skype S, and his message on the phone tonight said calling to skype.
i just sent him another email saying i really needed to talk with him before the skype session.
this is creating a lot of stress for me . S doesn't ask after him at all, it's as if he doesn't exist right now and i hate that for him.
i know he's wondering non-stop when he's going to hear from his dad.
part of me feels so angry towards H for putting our son through this - that right now i just can't even begin to forgive him for it.
thanks for your advice labug - it helped me a lot and maybe i'll google more about setting boundaries later. actually i think my mind is just overwhelmed right now and i don't even feel like reading anything- i'm exhausted right now - spent the whole day on edge and trying not to get too emotional and forcing myself to keep going and be cheerful and get all the things we had planned to do done.
luckily just an hour before S goes to bed, and then i can go meditate and try to ground myself a bit.
nhmom posted this on purgatory's thread and i'm copying and pasting it in mine, so that i can find it easily
I feel like we're all in this 'between' stage right now. Our M as it was is 'dead' (a scary concept on its own) and we're heading towards something better, which will also hopefully include a renewed R with our H/W. In the meantime, we're in this between space, reflecting on things that went wrong, trying to make sense of it, working on improving ourselves as human beings, learning about what kind of M we'd really like, and what it takes to have that.
also to add to what's going on - did talk to H and the conversation went completely the opposite of what i was anticipating - he was immediately responsive , completely NOT defensive, and really friendly and wanted me to suggest what was the best thing to do.
in other words, completely co-operative and really open and friendly.
i feel like a deflated balloon after that. i can't figure out if i cooked myself up unnecessarily (i really don't think i did , i know what i saw and heard and i know what my son was feeling), and got myself really upset over this.
the deflated feeling comes from not knowing where he stands on anything - i have no way to tell - and then he pulls a really positive move and i don't know how to read it and just feel confused and slightly suspicious.
i know that he really loves S and wants to do everything right for him.
i didn't get on skype - but watched a bit here and there - and i could see H was really making an effort to connect with S, but S wasn't quite there yet - S actually spent the whole conversation acting extra extra happy and laughing too loudly and in a fake way - and i got the feeling that he was SO relieved to have his dad to himself that he almost couldn't handle the excitement.
he's been a bit on edge and very hyper and i think he finally fell asleep after more than an hour of me laying in the bed with him - too much emotion to deal with? i don't know. i just stayed there for him as long as i could.
the other weird thing that i'm experiencing that i'm finding hard to deal with, is that because the conversation went so well and i felt as if I was really heard by H and acknowledged, it calmed and soothed me alot, and i feel very confused about that.
i don't know if i was soothed by the contact or by the acknowledgement of being heard - that was a huge issue for me all the 10 yrs - whenever i said anything about anything he immediately took the exact opposite position. and now he just didn't and it was such a huge relief
a bit about my last few days GAL'ing
-have made myself a strict schedule and really stuck to it, since last thursday
-decided to really get my work going and made my first commitment to have an exhibition sale at a store downtown - on april 27th, so i now have a very specific short term goal to work towards
- decided that for the first time in my life i will do the taxes - which would be the equivalent of ten 180's i swear - i'm going to surprise H when he gets back from the trip with them done - it won't just be a 180, it will blow his mind, if i actually do it
- getting better at staying still, and really proud of myself at my slow but steady progress
- not interacting with H on the skype on this trip - gone slightly dark - i just need it for myself, the space
-committed to doing my yoga everyday, not just on the days of my classes - i'm still new to it
-getting better at focusing even though i'm feeling terribly emotional - forcing myself through those periods to concentrate and get through them
well a turn around of sorts tonight - H skyped us, and we all three had a wonderful conversation, with alot of laughing and easy times. it was sooo nice for S, and i guess i should say for him and me also.
until now i've been staying away from the computer for the most part - but today it just felt easy to participate - and i wondered if he noticed, that when i am present, the whole thing is much lighter and easier.
in fact i might stay away the next couple of times so that he notices the difference!!
at one point i wondered if i was giving a love tap - if that what it was called - there were a couple of really warm moments.
suffice it to say that i am really pleased that S is more relaxed and the last couple of days he's really felt the connection again with his dad. i have always adored the relationship the two of them had, and it pains me horribly when i am faced during this sitch with anything that mars it in anyway
as for myself - less of a struggle day today - busted my butt to keep up with what i had to do - kept me so busy that it was only when i slowed down to cook dinner that i started to feel emotional
so my most vulnerable time of the day is around 6pm when H used to come home and there'd be dinner - and i still struggle with that -
anyone have good ideas about what i could do to override the sensitivity of that time - what have some of you tried to do differently?
i can't change dinner time for obvious reasons but would like any input or thoughts about it
also, can someone tell me - i did it the first time, but can't figure it out now, how to connect this thread so that when there's a post i get it in my email? sometimes i'm a real computer dodo!
hope everyone is doing well and it's been an easier day
oh by the way - i make knitted shawls and i just had the funniest thought this afternoon, that had me giggling to myself . you know how they say "an apple a day...?"
well here's mine:
A shawl a day keeps the psychiatrist away!!
after reading through some discussions about what OCD is about, i am wondering this morning whether my obsessing about my sitch is about my OCD.
over the last years it did get pretty bad - with everyday things - the way i wanted everything done and how things needed to be for me to have some semblance of feeling in control, because everything felt so out of whack all the time. i started working on it about a year ago, and after my sitch began consciously and determinedly removed those physical habits.( i have been realizing over the last few months how miserable it must have been for H and S to live with that)
but now i am beginning to realize that the mental one of how my mind works, may still be running along those lines - that i cannot get away from the idea and that constant feeding of it that if only H would "wake up" and see the truth of what he was doing.
so that is my next dysfunctional behavior that i really need to work on - it's sort of a relief to keep discovering all these things and peel another layer away. somehow, just in being able to consciously acknowledge and identify the problem makes it one step easier to tackle it.
i also wonder that if i focus so hard on HIS issues, then i don't have to face and work on my own - quite the avoidance tactic on my mind's part
my GAL for today - we went over to friends for a barbecue - i know, march 13 and it was 80 deg here
H skyped just before we had to leave - kind but clear message: S and i have a life and we're not going to sit at home even if it's time to skype - so the call was short - 10 mins, during which he was back to his unnerving odd behavior - it is becoming more and more obvious to me that he is having ALOT of trouble "facing" his son alone - i didn't get on the skype today
i have my apptmt with the therapist tomorrow and will talk to her about this odd behavior - i am very concerned about how S is seeing it and taking it in.
S was not too happy again and was almost rude to H at the end of the call, and i had to tell him not to speak like that to his father. poor little boy - can't imagine what he is thinking - he sure isn't telling me.
i spent alot of time reading old threads from the mid-life crisis forum (6 stages of the mlc) and i have to say, the more i read that stuff the more i see what is going on with H, and the clearer it becomes to me what i have to do - which is move forward and concentrate totally on myself
the obsessive focus towards H that has consumed me is FINALLY beginning to really shift - toward myself, and it is a liberating feeling
i really needed this trip of his - to get the space for myself - so good for me. i am going to use this time wisely:) and not waste a second of it
thanks labug - how was your day?
my appointment with the IC went great, i think - i was so proud to tell her of what i'd done to move forward, and some of the insights i have had in the past week. she was pleased and so was i!!
i described H's odd behavior, and she was quite shocked i think and immediately told me that i had to do EVERYTHING to protect S from seeing that - even if it meant that i sit there through every minute of the skype call. she also told me to either call him or email him and tell him that the behavior needed to stop now, and it was not good for S to see that.
i know i need to do that, but i am really reluctant to - not because i want it to continue, but because i simply don't know how to refer to it without implying that something is wrong with him.
i may have a reprieve today - he is traveling and has already told s that he may not be able to call today. so i am going to stay still and meditate and wait for my mind to give me the answers i need.
i did some more reading from the mlc archives - and oh my gosh - if only i had read that months ago - i would have not taken all his behavior so personally and let it hurt me so much.
but on the other hand - it propelled me to make some huge changes within myself, so maybe i had to go through it to get where i am now.
to understand that i am dealing with a child, and just like i wouldn't expect a child to do or behave in an adult way, to apply the same attitude to him, makes it so much easier for me to handle.
i read that a person in mlc while they are in the replay stage are really reliving and resolving issues from a certain stage/age in their childhood - a lot of what he's said and done completely fits into that. and in understanding where he is right now, i suddenly see the fruitlessness of expecting anything.
so my "expectations" are suddenly gone - and that is a huge relief
i can still have hope, but this new knowledge has really helped me to separate from his situation and see so clearly that he is in a way rather helpless right now and has been for a long while.
my job is to move forward and live my life as if he's not coming back, BUT still be compassionate and supportive and kind and understanding and not to reject him.
in the writing it is really clear that they are dealing with some sort of childhood trauma or rejection, and if you reject them now, you solidify the break. ( i believe i know partly what happened when he was a child - and that this is what he is dealing with - he has been more transparent than he realizes)
and finally i understand about why not to believe 100% of what they say and 50% of what they do.
they have to feel their way back somehow - and you know, as i look at the last few weeks, i think that may be just starting to happen - just the tiniest bit - there have been small changes - he's gone to hang out with his family more, he seems to want to fiX things with S (he made the appointment with the counselor ) , apparently they start making small moves like that and the spouse is the last person they move towards
don't get me wrong - i'm not having expectations at all - just noticing the small baby steps and realizing that if and when i see them, i have to be extra careful and still so that i don't get too excited and cause him to withdraw again.
teetering alot - yesterday evening was difficult, but i managed to get myself to a sort of good place again.
woke up this morning really out of sorts with this sitch and struggled for a couple of hours, but now feel a bit centered
this obsessing and letting go - i'm so sick of feeling my own resistance to it - and i think i'm getting a bit mad at myself for not just doing it.
GAL for today coming up - s's school has organized a skate party this evening - am going to try and skate for the first time since i was around 10. scary proposition - but am going to try!!
on the one hand, my old dysfunctional behaviors are rearing their ugly head and saying no, no don't go just send s with friends and the new me that is trying so desperately to emerge is saying yes yes what have you got to lose, go have some fun and lose yourself in something different for a couple of hours
One of my 180s or GALS was to say Yes more. I, too, fell into the it's so much easier to just stay home trap.
Get out of the d*mn house and have some fun!
thanks labug - i have really been doing that all these months with great enthusiasm, but this current "slump" i'm in has made me hang back in my mind again - i'm still going to force myself to do it and act as if..
and i know once we get there i'll have a great time - hope i just don't fall on my ass too many times - though - just like in this sitch, i'll get up and keep going
ooh what a great 180 i did for myself yesterday!!! i went skating- it was very exciting - and my friends who have watched me struggle these last years so much were thrilled.
i was thrilled - after a rocky start - i was soon skating quite decently and was even good enough to take s around holding his hand and keeping him up .
and 4 whole hours went by without really thinking or even considering "that person" and it was so very liberating.
s left this morning with in-laws for a 5 day trip - they've been wanting to take him away to give him a break, and so i get 5 days to really focus on work and get things rolling. i will be a bit isolated, since it's spring break and it seems like everyone is taking off for the next week or so, so it does feel rather odd to be completely alone!!
but it will be a "good" alone - i am going to keep a strict schedule - yoga, meditation and work - would like to add socialize but there isn't going to be anyone i know around - maybe i'll do a 180 and go out to dinner on my own or something similar
for my journal - this is from an astrology site that i follow that gives influences over periods of time. it is so apt for my situation now, that i am writing it here for myself as well as for others to read
[i"]... the border between discipline and habit is often hard to distinguish, but that is precisely the difference that you have to keep in mind at this time..
Habit is mindless and unconscious, whereas discipline is self-imposed and suited to achieving your goals.
..Take this time seriously and be very aware of what you are doing, because the patterns that you will establish now will be very hard to alter and will determine the success or failure of your relationships over the next several years..
This is a period when discipline, organization and growth are paramount concerns..
..If you don't handle this influence well, you will have considerable difficulty with your relationships in the years to come. And these difficulties will be the result of unfortunate patterns established here.."[/i]
Wow, did you print it out and hang it on your mirror?
i carry it on a piece of paper in my pocket and read it several times a day. i find that parts of it just pop into my head throughout the day.
i've been doing that for months -writing things that encourage me and carrying it around - it's still hard in spite of that.
today is a bit difficult - can't focus - am very tired from pushing hard to work this week - and that makes my brain overwhelmed and then the whole picture seems much harder to kepp positive.
tried to work this morning, but everything shot to hell and have to redo. so decided to take a break and do some reading
i have a question - how many of you after spouse walked out and is having an affair 7 months down the road, still find that he's left most of his stuff in your house?
did you insist he separates and takes his stuff, or is that just pushing and not giving them space and time?
Hey Zig,
I'm one - my H walked out 7 mths ago and is in an A.
He still has his wardrobe full of clothes here. Even has his favourite cap still perched on the valet in our bedroom. Not to mention all his gear in the garage.
He's bought himself a heap of new clothes - some exact replicas of the stuff that's sitting in his wardrobe here.
Make sense of that?
I've thought about asking him to take it - but it's mainly motivated by the hope that it will be difficult for him to find a place to store it all.
Not really something that's going to help my M.
I'm also unclear about what to do for the best, so looking forward to other views.
thanks for answering NLW. i'm sorry to hear about what you are going through - lord knows i know exactly how you feel!
about a month ago i did sort of say that i'd like to tie up loose ends and that i didn't really want to live with his stuff right now. i pointed out that he has the luxury of setting up his house without the tiniest reminder of me while i'm still living in the space we shared together with all his stuff around me.
he's traveling for the entire month of march and so he said that he wouldn't have time to deal with it until april and i said that was fine (the whole conversation was very gentle and quiet - with him looking very pained and emotional about the whole thing - when i pointed out that it was half a year - he looked a bit surprised and said "has it already been that long?)
side vent: what the heck is he thinking, has it been already that long? the man is in full blown mlc and has NO idea the effect it's having on the rest of us!! (sorry - had to let that out!!)
now, after doing a bunch of reading on the mlc board, i've found out that it is best not to push anything, and no pressure, and so i'm a bit stumped about what to do.
on the other hand - his personality is of the type that if i don't bring it up again, he may just let it slide...
after he left on his trip - i made a major change in the house - i moved the master bedroom into the guest bedroom (he had taken the guest bed, which incidentally was our first bed together to his house), and made what used to be our bedroom into my workroom - and i love it.
i haven't quite had the nerve? to take all his stuff off the living room shelves and from around the house - part of what is stopping me is that our son would notice right away - it's too obvious - and i'm not sure if it would upset him or not - he is already struggling quite a lot with this sitch.
when we had that conversation, at first he sort of half whined and said - but i have nowhere to put all my stuff and i pointed out that there was a perfectly good garage at his house sitting empty except for the motor-bike (which i don't know if i've mentioned before, he bought with money i gifted him and the day he got the bike, met ow and started sleeping with her!!! hows that for a gift thrown back in yer face!!)
sheesh the more i think about it, the more i'm getting disgusted with him!!
probably influenced by the fact that my horoscope keeps saying for the last few days that i am tending to see life through rosy colored glasses and to watch out for being over-optimistic!!!
i hope just like you , others will respond too - i'd love to get a lot of viewpoints about this
take care NLW - i'll going to go find your thread now , if i can
journaling
it's quite here with son gone and everyone away for spring break.
had dinner with H's grandparents - sort of ironic - while everyone's away i take care of them. they are sweet and very old, and we adore each other. grandma wept for weeks on my shoulder when sitch first started - why won't he go to counseling - it was hard because i couldn't tell her about the A. now she doesn't ask anymore...
didn't have a very good work weekend - had planned to get alot done, maybe too much pressure on myself.
am noticing that i am definitely detaching a tiny bit more everyday - it's interesting for me to watch myself go through this process - the dilemma of trying to detach WITHOUT getting angry about the sitch and what happened during our marriage.
i try to focus on "practicing on the little stuff" - the minor things - letting them go and realizing that the more i practice on the small things not affecting me, then i will get better at the big stuff. got this wonderful insight from listening to pema chodron - her taped talks (Biting the Hook) are all about relinquishing anger and "reframing our attitudes towards discomfort"
i listening to those discs alot - repeatedly, and it's amazing how each time i do, i find myself "hearing" things that i couldn't relate to earlier, but suddenly hit home and i understand them so much more profoundly
i'm also starting to view this sitch as a positive "opportunity" for making myself a better person and feeling more positive about the challenge. there are so many things to fix within myself that some days i simply don't know where to start - but i suppose i've already started - and the process is a long one - for the rest of my life:)
pema used an interesting example - she feels great compassion for people who are struggling and unaware. "if i have the tools for understanding and making myself better, and i find it so incredibly difficult, what can those others do who don't even have the tools or the awareness - how can they even start?"
when i feel particularly wretched about this sitch i try to remember that - that while i am struggling everyday making my changes, doing all this reading, meditation and therapy and the support of my friends, i still keep struggling and slipping - so how can i expect H, who does not even know that these tools exist in the way they can help him, to be able to be self aware and understand what he is doing to harm himself and others with his actions?
i'm thinking alot about compassion tonight - it helps me to detach that little bit more...
just got an email from H - he's back in civilization and can skype again.
"Thanks for your email about s and for letting me know what was happening so I could fix it, I really miss him... The conference went really well and we had alot of fun .. i'll tell you about it when I return."
that's from part of the email - i think it's the first time during this sitch where he implied he was going to do something in the future with me - "i'll tell you about it when i return"
the damn thing was downright friendly!!
i had emailed him back earlier, saying that he did great with s after i had talked to him, and how s seemed so much more cheerful afterwards. also thanked him for doing a great job for the next few days with keeping s informed about when he was going to call next.
i didn't say anything about the odd behavior etc. that the therapist had told me to do last week - i feel i have to find the right moment and i will be able to say it in the right way. i guess i want to see how the next skype session goes and will go join them if he starts acting all funky.
I'm glad that he is talking about the future with you...that's a good sign. Best wishes for you! I will pray for you!
zig, thanks for this post, this morning.
I'm struggling a bit today, woke up to a few tears. I think the fact that H is gone is always a bit more pronounced when both my sons are here. It really makes the lack of the other person that made this family apparent. It's much better than it used to be but it still hits at odd moments.
i'm also starting to view this sitch as a positive "opportunity" for making myself a better person and feeling more positive about the challenge. there are so many things to fix within myself that some days i simply don't know where to start - but i suppose i've already started - and the process is a long one - for the rest of my life:)
Something very similar was weighing on my mind this morning as I was wool-gathering. Yes, a lot of things about me have changed but there is so much more, some that I'm probably not yet aware of.
I'm going to get the pema recordings.
Thanks.
thanks stephanie, but i was sort of laughing to myself a bit when i wrote that - talk about teeny tiny steps, that one has to notice as if they were HUGE.
thank you for your kind support - i wish you well too
I'm struggling a bit today, woke up to a few tears. I think the fact that H is gone is always a bit more pronounced when both my sons are here. It really makes the lack of the other person that made this family apparent. It's much better than it used to be but it still hits at odd moments.
yes labug - i know that feeling really bad - it happens to me at dinner time, and during the week that s is with me i struggle much harder than when he's at h's.
what i'm finally learning to do is "sit with the intensity of the emotion" when it rises - finally understanding that if i just accept and allow myself to feel it and be okay with it (it's not good or bad, it just is) then amazingly it passes
i think it is the mental equivalent of breathing through the stretch while doing yoga -
also, i think it's great that you really identified specifically what you're struggling with -in fact it gave me sudden insight for myself that hey, if i just feel bad about a specific thing and only deal with that each time - instead of being triggered by one little thing and then emotionally taking on the entire sitch - there will be less to handle in the moment
hope you're feeling better by now - ((((hugs)))) and go make a "what do i have to be grateful for list" ....
zig
got the title wrong - it's "Don't Bite the Hook"
sorry
the other one that i listen to a lot also is "from fear to fearlessness"
Thanks, zig.
I never really understood the power of support groups until this "opportunity" came into my life.
Coming here and reading allows me to connect with those who are behind me in the process and those who are ahead of me. It helps so much to know that what we are feeling is normal and the all feelings are momentary.
Most of all, I gain perspective.
This was on my wall on the alt today:
‎"The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away."
- Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
it's a good day to be me kind of day today. each day i let go that little bit more and i realize that i am really doing that because each time i take a farther step away from this stitch, it takes me one step closer to feeling my own sense of self, and opening up other possibilities
the more i relax into this situation, the more i get shown that there is so much more for me than just this.
today - a wonderful moment. one of h's friends called - that's the first time since the split. just to say hi - we had worked together in the past and for the last few weeks i've been thinking of calling him to ask if i could come work in his studio - since i don't have one and can't afford to set one up. after a bit of easy chit chat i brought it up ad he was thrilled at the idea and landed up saying how great it would be to have an artist of my caliber around (i used to be pretty good before the accidents (embarassed grin) - and i was so stunned to hear that -
i guess in that moment i realized how much of a bashing my self esteem has taken, not just with this sitch but also with what happened with the accident.
so another GAL - i am going to THINK myself worthy and good at what i do, and simply stop hesitating and being unconfident.
i have really begun to notice more and more that when i don't have any expectations, things just come to me when i need them. i am going to trust that more and more
having a moment of sadness- i miss the connection that H and i used to have together with s.
just talked to s on his trip and he had skyped for a long time with H, and i just felt so sad that we were connecting with s so separately now.
s kept forgetting what he had told his dad and thought he had told it to me already - and that's what made my mind go down that path
i'm telling myself that it will pass but i could sure do with a hug right now...
(((zig))) I know it's not the same but hop it helps. The little changes in our lives are sometimes have the most impact.
thanks labug
you're right about the little things - they hurt more than the big stuff - wonder why?
i am better now - i gave myself a hug - and realized, that i can get through this moment and get back to a good place again
it takes practice, and so i'm proud of myself for being able to do that tonight and then i know that next time i can do it again
thanks for the hug:)
(((zig)))
IMO, our sitch's help us see the little interactions that we may have taken for granted (at least that's what's happened for me).
Glad you were able to pull out of the negative mental path. Its a slippery slope so good job! Hope your day goes well.
(((zig)))
IMO, our sitch's help us see the little interactions that we may have taken for granted (at least that's what's happened for me).
ces, I think that's the gist of it. There's a certain subtle rhythm, synergy, vibration to our daily family lives, and when one component is missing it's like taking notes out of a piece of music.
Zig I would love a recipe for butter chicken.
thanks ces-
oh yes - that being complacent and taking things for granted - really comes back to bite one in the ,,,
never want to do that again - take things for granted
and that slippery slope - it's taken me months to realize how every tiny little event has put me on it and i've just gone with it and slid right down.
i'm determined not to do that any more.
i am intending to have a good day - s comes back this afternoon, so excited to see him. hope you have a wonderful day today too
zig
i like the way you put that - we have to make new music now -even more beautiful
oh shyte rick - embarassed that i don't have one on hand - will look up one of my recipe books if i have a minute today
that is yummy - haven't had it in years - but since you brought it up, maybe i have to cook some of that myself for a GAL - hardly ever cook indian food these days!!
journaling
feel so strange today - really struggled through the day - was excited to see s but at the same time felt overwhelmed and reminded so acutely of the sitch.
am also struggling a lot with realizing that i DON"T want to see H when he gets back in about a week - that i'm not ready, i'm not strong enough, not detached enough
why did i think that 25 days would be plenty to rip myself out of the situation?
i think that as i accept more and more that this is really happening, i am going through a new stage of realizing how deeply hurt i am and how much trust i've lost in him. i thought about the trust thing as something i could get over easily, but tonight i find myself overwhelmed at the thought of dealing with it.
i also realized that i don't think i posted my " whole story" when i began here = and i can't figure out if it was some sort of sub-conscious evasion on my part, or because i'm so consumed with the present sitch that i didn't get into that.
i was married before - 10 yrs, no kids, and my ex cheated on me continuously from the second year on. i always let it go and eventually that marriage just died and he moved in with another woman and then told me that he wanted a divorce.
ashamed to say that in the last few months, i had an affair - with H, in another country and got pregnant by accident - i didn't know about my ex's affair at that time. H pressured me alot to keep the baby and finally i did - just didn't have it in me to have an abortion, and my divorce with ex came through 3 weeks before s was born and then finally i agreed to get married when s was 3 weeks old.
H never got over that i had been so reluctant to say yes- taking it as a sign that i didn't love him enough. i did love him alot, but the reluctance came from the fact that i had just ended one relationship and didn't want to jump right into another one, and the whole situation was so messy and i felt like a failure, and ashamed about everything that had happened. on the other hand we were so excited about our new baby and so in love, that it seemed as if we would be just fine
the thing was that i never trusted anyone as much as i trusted H after we met and for all these years, and i feel simply devastated by his disloyalty.
by the time i cheated on my ex, he had had so many affairs that i had lost count, and we hadn't been intimate for 2 yrs. i know it was wrong of me to do that, and even worse (something i have not been able to forgive myself for) exH had begged for years for us to have kids and i refused, and then what do i go and do, but have someone else's baby
so now i can't help but think about both my marriages and see the crazy similarities, and the bizarre situation that both lasted about 10 yrs and both have ended the same way with both men leaving with another woman
and then i think - what comes around goes around
in my own defense, i tried really hard in both - maybe not in the right way, because i didn't understand how relationships work like i do now, but at the same time i can't help thinking that why have i been with 2 consecutive men who thought it was better to go sleep with someone else rather than fix our problems. another similarity between them was that they are both adamant that i caused 100% of the problems and they didn't do anything wrong. so here i am with the knowledge that it takes two to tango but both men that i was with thought only one needed to
so there are the sordid details and i don't know if it's better to quietly walk away or stay and try to make this work. except that this time i really do love this man and i have a child with him, and it makes me angry , so angry that because of that i have to stay and be okay with H - and so i feel stuck, and a little trapped, because i'd rather go somewhere very far away and put this out of my mind - it's the only way i know how to take away the pain a little
but i guess even as i write this, i have to grow up and face the music - and do the biggest 180 of them all - face EVERYTHING - accept it for what it truly is, come to peace with it and STAY right here, no matter how painful it is.
i have been doing this for 7 months now - facing everything that i am aware of , and there is just more and more all the time - within myself and my situation and i am just so tired..
i don't really know why i am so distraught tonight - trying to identify what is really upsetting me - is it the realization that both these men were not good for me, or that i was no good for either of them - or something entirely different, that has to do more with the letting go and seeing the reality of it all and how painful it actually is
thanks for having the patience to read:)
and rick, if you see this, i'm still remembering the recipe, will get it to you one of these days:)
okay so after that long pathetic wail above, i go to read my horoscope and here's what it says ( i copied and pasted it here, hope that's kosher)
"Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right... Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.." Yeah, we all know that song & we all know that feeling too... The danger here is that you have some very powerful forces on either side of you and the last thing you want or need is to get caught in the middle... in the crossfire... It's your additional spiritual awareness that allows you to rise above situations like this and that's what you must do... It's important to understand that you are not being called to "solve the problems"... It about how to avoid getting caught in the madness.
how's that for putting things into a bit more positive perspective?
i HAVE to figure out how to get out of the crossfire here- the one H has aimed at me - he won't be with me and he won't quite leave me alone either
i'm sticking this one up on the wall
had my appointment w/ therapist today
she announce that i was a complete mess and depressed and that i need to focus on structure, distracting myself so as not to be obsessed with the sitch and to set some huge boundaries in place with H/
i am dreading and getting so cooked up about these 2 days that he is coming back between this trip he's on and the one he takes days later with s.
and today i realized that he has left where he was yesterday and is now with ow - and spending time with her until the 25 when he finally gets back here.
so there we have it - how did others on this board get out from the "obsessed" state ? i need help - and tools to figure out how to do this.
i'm also about to give up db'ing just because the hurt and pain is now getting so overwhelming that i can hardly bear it. and i know that i don't really want to do that, but i'm worried that i will slip up big time here in the next few days if i don't get my [censored] together - and destroy all the good work i've done these 7 months - especially for myself.
i know that all this comes from impatience and wanting answers and which way to do everything, and that there are none of those things. i need to find the strength within myself to stay the course
Lol zig I know but that wil hopefully keep your mind occupied. I have never ever had butter chicken. Want to try it. There is this one dude called Mach1 on the board Has great recipes also. So when u can share I love Indian cooking.
okay rick , here goes with the butter chicken (grin) . i am suspecting strongly that you are trying to distract me from my morose state, and i thank you from my heart
Velvet Butter Chicken (Makhani Murgh) from Julie Sahni's Classic Indian Cooking
2/3 recipe Tandoori chix (i'll follow with that recipe)
3 c canned tomatoes in puree or 4 c fresh chopped tomatoes
4 green fresh chilies, seeded or 1/2 tsp red pepper
2 tbsp chopped fresh ginger rootblend these three to a fine puree
1 stick sweet butter - heat in pan and when foam subsides, brown chix pieces and remove them with a slotted spoon and set aside
add:
4 tsp ground cumin
1 Tbsp paprika and cook stirring rapidly over medium heat 10-15 secs.
add tomato puree mixture and cook uncovered until the sauce is thickened about 5-8 mins stirring constantly so it doesn't burn.
Add:
2 tbsp kosher salt
1 and 1/2 cups heavy cream
chix pieces +juicesgently stir everything, reduce heat to medium low and simmer uncovered about 10 until the the fat begins to separate form the sauce and a thin glaze appears on the surface. stir often very gently to make sure it isn't sticking on the bottom,
stir in :
1/2 stick butter
2 tsp garam masala
2 tsp ground roasted cumin seeds (optional)
turn off heat and let the dish stand covered for 1/2 hr before serving. reheat to serve and sprinkle
1/2 cup fresh minced cilantro leaves on top
Tandoori chicken
marinate chicken pieces (skinned) 2-2and1/4 pounds any combo in the following for at least 2 hrs or overnight (slash the chicken pieces with 3 diagonal slashes to the bone after skinning, but not the breasts - cut those in three)
2 large cloves garlic
1 tbsp chopped fresh ginger root
1 tsp ground cumin
1/2 tsp ground cardamom
1/2 tsp red pepper
1/3 cup plain very thick yoghurt
to cook - if using only breasts - i broil them on a rack in the oven (or on a bbq) . if using legs and thighs, i bake them covered in a pan at 350 deg for 20-25 mins and then stick them under the broiler on a rack to brown both sides - then you can use them in the above recipe
so - if you haven't cooked indian food before, it tends to be a tad bit more laborous than the usual stir-fry, but worth it.
i have no idea if you're into cooking, so ignore the following if you know quite a bit - the spices you can find in any indian store - and they are really cheap. or order them on line if you don't have one of those around. i wouldn't get them from a regular grocery store, because they will most probably be tasteless.
if you don't want to deal with making the marinade from scratch, i've often bought a ready tandoori mix marinade that you just dump in the yoghurt and add the chix. also ask if you don't understand what i wrote in the recipe - i did condense it quite a bit, hopefully not too much
i feel a bit goofy posting a recipe on this forum - but didn't know how else to do it. i guess it will be a nice change from my depressing posts!!
so this helped - if that was your secret intention - to distract me for a little while
thanks rick
btw i wasn't really sure what exactly you meant by:
"I know but that wil hopefully keep your mind occupied."
Hey Zig, reading through your last few posts. That is a lot to work through and you are brave for facing all of it. It can't be easy but I believe you will be better for it.
The movement away from being obsessed is like most things with DBing. It's not linear. It's part of the roller coaster. The things that can help are GAL stuff and enjoying friendships or making new ones. this isn't something that can be dealt with all alone. Use this board but at the same time, get out and enjoy the world. Find the things you love to do but forgot about or discover new activities to love.
But the main thing is make yourself do it rather than just consider it.
Take care...
thanks ces - you are right
i am constantly adding things to my GAL and 180 list, and in spite of that just feel as if i'm trying to climb up a slope that is very slippery. i suppose that's what they mean when they say 1 step forward , 2 steps back.
i think that every once in a while i feel TERRIBLY discouraged, and lose sight of my goal and then lose it altogether - which of course points to the fact that i am not detached yet (sad smile) as if that was a specific goal, rather than a process
i know that the biggest thing that i am struggling with here, is that i've read all this DB'ing stuff but i don't really know how to apply it in this sitch in specific situations. i was really hoping to get more feedback here
i REALLY , REALLY understand about GAL'ing and i am working on it and i have followed the 37 rules even before i got on this board with a smile on my face, but where i get unnerved and really unsure is how to be with H - should i let him come and go freely as i have these last few months - he has definitely "warmed " towards me - but is that a good sign or is it that he just feels more comfortable with what he's doing. it has taken a toll on me, and now, when i want some space, i don't know how to balance it out so that s doesn't get deeply affected by it because of my needs.
i have validated him up the wazoo, have constantly let him know whenever i realize something that may have affected him deeply and i think i just hit that point where i'm not getting anything back, after trying so hard for so long, and the depression just hit
he is adamant that it's better if he doesn't come back because "look how well you are doing since i left" and that freaks me out .
i am doing better now - keep opening that window in my mind and tossing him out along with bundle of pain and then shutting the window tight. it sounds absurd but it is helping
thanks for taking the time to read my woes ces - much appreciate your calm words
hope you're well
zig
journaling
felt more reconnected with s tonight - we played a game after dinner and then had a long tickling laughing session and i realized that these last few weeks we haven't done that and we had done that consistently for months. so am determined to do that everyday with him again - he is such a wonderful little soul and i must focus on him and myself more than just be so "self-involved" with my troubles.
so am feeling a lot calmer and focused now, also read through some more posts on the board and what all the wonderful people write here and advise motivates me to stay on the path that i've chosen and i feel more determined once again to stay the course.
letting anger and resentment start to take over is a slippery slope for oneself - it gets me nowhere but down at the bottom of a black hole, and i need to be up in the light , making my life as light and luminous as i possibly can
i'm determined to yank myself out of this depression - i won't let him do that to me on top of everything else going on. my roller coaster ride right now is a bit too violent and i need to smooth out the course so it is more gentle...
Thank you Zig. I do things like that with myself to think of other things. There is more to life than our sitchs. I will try it and let u know how it came out. Next chicken tandury not sure of correct spelling.
i have validated him up the wazoo, have constantly let him know whenever i realize something that may have affected him deeply and i think i just hit that point where i'm not getting anything back, after trying so hard for so long, and the depression just hit
Yep, I completely get that and deal with it too. I realized this is a reminder that I am again placing expectations on others for my actions rather than focusing on what I expect of myself and for myself.
he has definitely "warmed " towards me - but is that a good sign or is it that he just feels more comfortable with what he's doing. it has taken a toll on me, and now, when i want some space, i don't know how to balance it out so that s doesn't get deeply affected by it because of my needs.
Again, think about if you are doing your actions for yourself or for your H's response. If its taking its toll on you think about what it is that is exhausting. If I had to guess (and I could be completely wrong) it may be that your expectations aren't getting met from H and therefor your efforts are exhausting you with no reward. What if your efforts were for yourself and you could see your own accomplishments in creating a better life for you?
i'm determined to yank myself out of this depression - i won't let him do that to me on top of everything else going on.
Read that line again. Its such a mind-shift but remember your H truly has no power over you except what you give him. Take back your own power and live your life.
You're really doing better than you think. You're digging deep and your opening up old wounds. That's the only way to clean out the infection and truly allow those wounds to heal. I just see in your words that expectations of your H is still a struggle for you. And that's OK. It is for all of us, me included. And just like the wounds, you just have to recognize it more each day and that helps to change those expectations to something much healthier.
And as the wounds heal, you may find that you are more free than ever to give and love becuase you've been able to fill your own life up with positives.
ces, great posts!
it has taken a toll on me, and now, when i want some space, i don't know how to balance it out so that s doesn't get deeply affected by it because of my needs.
Do you want H to come and go at will? This is
your house now. You don't have to be angry or rude about it, just something like: "H, I have a very busy life and would ask that you call and arrange a time to visit S."
S will deeply affected if Mom is always sad or on edge due to issues with H. H's relationship with his son is his responsibility. Really. You don't get in the way of it but it's not your job to create it.
he has definitely "warmed " towards me - but is that a good sign or is it that he just feels more comfortable with what he's doing.
Mind-reading, not worth your time. Open the window and throw that out, too.
he is adamant that it's better if he doesn't come back because "look how well you are doing since i left" and that freaks me out .
He may not come back no matter what you do, that's the sad truth. That's why we act as if and GAL.
Sit with the pain of him not coming back and decide what your life would look like then; live that life now.
As ces said, this is not linear. You will have absolutely horrible days and a few days with good times sprinkled in. Then the good times will increase and turn into good days here and there and then the good days will outnumber the bad days. Believe me, it will happen.
But if you give up now, you will be stuck. The only way through this, is through it, step by painful step.
As some of the vets on here say, stop looking over your shoulder to see if he's following. Just keep moving toward that strong, independent woman you want to be.
H will be able to catch up if he wants to.
ces - thank ou for what you wrote:)
sorry it took so long to get back to you - have had an extremely busy 3 days - busy dithering and agonizing and going back and forth on my latest biggest GAL - and was it a WHOPPER for me, and now that i've finally done it - it wasn't that hard to actually do - but am dealing with the effects of it for myself - will explain that part in my journaling post after replying to yours
a reminder that I am again placing expectations on others for my actions rather than focusing on what I expect of myself and for myself.
i woke up the next morning after my last post, and realized exactly this - and then read your reply - you are so right and on the mark, and once i got it that that is what has made it so difficult - it was a relief to be able to STOP doing it
it may be that your expectations aren't getting met from H and therefor your efforts are exhausting you with no reward.
this is bang on the mark, and i am actively making and feeling the shift away from that - NO EXPECTATIONS on any level
You're really doing better than you think.
yes i am aren't i? and i really have to SEE that for myself - and encourage and acknowledge my own baby steps first, before anything else.
thank you so much for your insight and encouragement. because of what you wrote, i am able to become more aware of this expectation thing and start to work on it.
the expectations simply have to stop - the only thing that i can expect and work towards is what i want and see for myself only.
zig
As some of the vets on here say, stop looking over your shoulder to see if he's following. Just keep moving toward that strong, independent woman you want to be.
i copied this out and read it several times a day, and say it to myself all the time . thanks labug - once again, you come through in a big way for me.
and about the mind reading and analyzing - there has been a BIG shift in my mind during the last few days, and i am starting to stop doing it - i guess that's another way of saying when i start to do it, i recognize what i'm doing and then put it out the window.
that damn window is being opened and slammed shut ALOT these past few days!!!
journaling
so that's quite the GAL i did yesterday and today.
as a preface, just to point out what a big deal it was for me - for the last 5 years after the accidents, i developed a real deep fear of going out, and especially if it was to do something unfamiliar. traveling had become a complete nightmare and because of the fear (which was not unfounded - the triggers were terrible) of spasming i had become extreme about not committing myself to anything whatsoever. we did take a trip last spring which was really difficult for me physically and a nightmare for H.
since the sitch started, i have done a ton of things which i hadn't done all these years - mostly outings with friends which were a huge deal when i started, because everyone who knew me couldn't believe i was doing so well
so finally i met my biggest challenge today, and drove myself, on my own, to the airport an hour away from where i live, got on a plane by myself and went to visit my parents.
i was trashed - by the time we got to their house - the flight was harder on me than i realized - but no wheelchair, no assistance, no getting so overwhelmed that i couldn't handle anything, no terrible spasms - and it was wonderful,
but it took me 2 whole days of going back and forth and putting myself through the wringer mentally before i could book that ticket - and i only booked it yesterday!! then i emailed h and told him that i was leaving the next morning and s would be with mil.
incidentally today , he flew back here from his trip and arrived a few hours after i left. FIRST time that i am not just here like always.
i know it has affected him deeply - he didn't acknowledge what i had told him (and he knows what a huge deal it is for me to even consider traveling) when he emailed me back.
his mom and s picked him up from the airport, and i talked to her later - and she told me that he kept asking her every detail about it, especially why had i chosen today, the day he gets back) to travel. he was amazed that i drove myself to the airport and flew on my own
then he did another unexpected thing. while i was skyping son this evening with my mom - he came on the skype to wish my mom happy b'day, and actually spoke to her - first time in seven months.
mil told me afterwards that when he moved away from the computer he was struggling really badly. i know that's about how terrible he feels about what he's doing and he hasn't been able to face my parents.
but what i saw was him doing what was for him an extremely brave and courageous thing to do - i know (because i know him) how hard that was for him to do, and he didn't have to come and say that , he could have avoided it altogether,, but he didn't
i want to acknowledge this to him - i want to tell him that it was amazingly brave what he did and that it meant alot to me and to my mom. i think what really got to him (and btw, h and my mom have always adored each other) was when she said i really wish you and s were here
any thoughts on that?
how can anyone be this utterly tortured and still keep doing what they are doing?
am trying to focus on NOT focusing on H and s.
am feeling it acutely since i left that they are fine without me - and i miss being "needed". but it's also back to how someone pointed out to me that my ego has to let go of trying to be the one who keeps everything going and keeps trying to fix everything.
i'm ruminating alot on the fact that a big part of "letting go" includes not trying to fix the relationship - and since my mind has been on that so fixedly for so long (even before the sitch) it's an old habit that is very hard to break
as labug says to me - stop looking over my shoulder -
i was reading about letting go and allowing, and it talked about how we stand in the way of what we want by clinging to old beliefs and craving things that are in fact now part of the past, and how that holds us in such a stuck narrow place.
i'm almost fascinated by how, in spite of all this knowledge, my mind still keeps clinging to "what i want"
and from a very sudden compassionate point that i just reached while writing this - i realized that in my last post, i moaned about how can someone keep doing what h is doing when he is so agonized - and it suddenly hit me - well i'm doing exactly the same thing - letting myself stay agonized IN SPITE OF knowing that if i let go i will have peace of mind.
so with all my new found awareness here, and i can't do it so easily - how can i expect him to even start?
wow -
and from a very sudden compassionate point that i just reached while writing this - i realized that in my last post, i moaned about how can someone keep doing what h is doing when he is so agonized - and it suddenly hit me - well i'm doing exactly the same thing - letting myself stay agonized IN SPITE OF knowing that if i let go i will have peace of mind.
Great insight.
Have you done tonglen?
thanks labug.
yes i have done tonglen - and right when i read your question, i got a shock - i was doing it everyday for the first 5 months and was doing so much better, and now i realized that i stopped doing it about 2 months ago and that's when all the anger and resentment and expectations started rising -
well, figures - time to start that again, don't you think.
i was sort of aware of it the last couple of weeks, and even though i've been listening to some of pema's tapes, i had stopped reading the books, and in fact that's what i took on the plane with me - "the wisdom of no escape"
thanks for being so supportive and coming to read my thread so consistently, labug - i am really touched:)
zig
had a long chat with h this evening when i called to say goodnight to s.
we've had so little contact for over 2 weeks, and i know he wanted to talk and so instead of being quick with him, i allowed it.
i took the opportunity to let him know how much i appreciated him connecting with my mom last night on skype, i told him that i thought it might have been really difficult for him and that it touched me to see him do it in spite of that. he said "you know i love your mom and i feel so bad about this" and i said that it didn't matter and that my mom was really touched also
i can't help thinking this was a baby step - his feeling things out in some way..
the rest of the conversation got easier and easier. we had to discuss some tax stuff and i had to tell him that the woman who handles our finances knew about our separation (she's also a close friend of his family, she doesn't know about the A) and that she was required to know - he was obviously uncomfortable about that and tried to hide it by talking in some muddled way about how then if she knew, she would have to handle the decisions differently - i'm not sure what he was getting at, because what he said didn't make any sense at all - but instead of pushing it, i asked if s was in the room and he said yes, and i just said, let's talk about it later ( i couldn't help noticing that he kept saying our money and our stuff instead of "your money" etc)
they are leaving in the morning and we talked a bit about that, and also about some work stuff of his - i offered in a really friendly manner that i could help him with an application that is due on the 31st - and congratulated him warmly - he had been nominated for some pretty fancy work thing which would be great for him.
i just feel in my gut that the more i am just open, warm and friendly the better it is for us - it is my grand 180 - in the past everything would make me grouchy,, and here inspite of all i am not being that person
what's great is that i am learning that i can be this wonderful person in spite of this situation, and that i can be open and warm and still protect myself and make boundaries as i need them
heck i sound so good, even I wouldn't want to leave me (big fat determined grin)
no but seriously, i am so fed up with all the tension that he holds up as a wall between us - so sick of always being calm and cheerful while he walks around looking so damn miserable, that when we all get back from our trips next week, i am going to simply tell him to bloody well lighten up.
today it is finally getting through to me that the best thing i did for myself right now was to get away from there for a few days. it's starting to feel good now - and it's great to be with my family.
sadly my father is progressing rapidly w/alzheimers and it has been disconcerting to see how much he has aged and how much care he needs. i mentioned to h that it was difficult for mom and i to go out, because he couldn't be left alone and h was shocked - how come i don't know about what's going on with your dad -i wanted to say because you haven't been here, and how could i share the pain of that with you - but instead i just said casually that i'd talk to him about it later.
so it's really nice to be able to spend time with my dad, while he's still a little here - can't help thinking about losing the connection with both him and h around the same time. sad times...
mil told me of a conversation with her and s after i left on sunday to go visit my parents
mil: shall i read your horoscope
s: yes
mil: it says "someone close to you has changed alot. keep your heart and mind open to those changes, etc" . s, who could that be in your life?
s: (my name), of course
mil: how do you feel about those changes?
s: it's amazing, it's wonderful. she is really different now
YIPPEE
someone at least - has noticed, and it's one that i love tremendously and is very close to my heart. my heart just filled with joy, when i heard what he had said, and all the pain and squeezing through feels so worth it. i feel just a bit lighter today.
of course it helps that i am a couple thousand miles away, and am taking a break from the mess!!
meant to say that s and H have the same horoscope!!
Kids, you gotta love them. Pretty interesting same horoscopes!
That is awesome that your son would notice such wonderful changes in you! Enjoy that acknowledgement of your efforts and let it be an encouragement for you on the journey!
zig, I've received the same validation from my sons, it feels so good to know I'm not deluding myself.
it's definitely an encouragement. sometimes this journey gets too lonesome with absolutely no validation. we have to tamp down our own feelings and expressing them so much, that i think if he ever did try to work it out, i don't know if i could handle all that positive emotion!!
i'm so glad you have labug - and no - after the waking up, sadly there is no way we can delude ourselves - in fact sometimes i wish i didn't have to see everything so bloody clearly!!!
woke up this morning feeling one step closer to letting go and making peace with this situation
labug - your advice of sitting with the picture of h not coming back and envisioning how my life would be - i did that, and you know, it didn't make me freak as it used to - the idea still hurts, but not as desperately as before.
on the other hand, i find that i am having a hard time seeing the life i want to lead. i can picture it in the type of person i want to be - my personality, but not in terms of what i want to do and the life style i'd like to live. that is still in it's infant stages, and i am trying to sit with it and just let it be. "independent" is still something i am working towards - in my mind and heart.
journaling
not having posted for so many days there is now so much to write, but i'll be brief ...
the trip to my parents was a great thing and a great disaster.
but i learned so much about myself and the dynamics of my family. but the biggest gift i came away with was the knowledge of the unconditional love i felt from my mother.
for the last few weeks i have been puzzled ,feeling very strongly that even though i had "woken up" and was getting everything i was changing about myself, there was some last thing - big - that i just couldn't put my finger on.
my last barrier, so to speak. and i feel that finally it came to light - the negative huge thing that has been deeply affecting me my whole life. i was finally able to recognize it for what it was this week, and just with that recognition , came huge relief and actually a sense of self-empowerment. that NOW, finally i know what sabotages all my relationships and living, and i can target it and work on it and get RID OF IT!!!!
and that is what i have done - i have always sabotaged the relationships i have with the people i love the most and want to be the closest to, and finally i understand why i do that . as for changing that within myself - i know it is not going to happen overnight, but i am determined that it will
H is right - about a lot of stuff - especially his fear of coming back, because we'll just fall right back into old patterns. all these months while i have been "transformed" i thought he was wrong to think that, until i met with my family - and before i knew it, i was so triggered and it was as if nothing had changed. i was so shocked to see myself become almost a child again, and act out quite horrifically. but this time i could SEE it and work through it.
then my mom and i talked and she told me about some of the things i did as a child, and suddenly it was like boing! i've done this all my life and now i have to stop!
one of H's grievances was that "he lived my sexual abuse". i thought i had understood what he meant, but i only found out this week. that night after i lost it - and i was screaming at my family that they didn't protect me when i was a child - i got online and found this amazing website about sexual abuse and read for hours - and that's when i realized that there were terrific long-term consequences if this was left unresolved and they weren't as "simple" as me not wanting to have sex all the time.
and suddenly it was like, oh my gosh - H was living this - in my behavior - the way i shut down and completely disassociated for hours or days - and on and on
my 180 in this situation - instead of disassociating this time - i apologized to my mom and sister - and talked to my mom a lot, and even though my brother was crazy angry with me for 3 days i was friendly to him.
and i was proud of myself for making a breakthrough - even if it was a small one
later my mom said to me that in spite of it being so utterly distressing (the five of us hadn't been alone together for over 20 yrs!) she was glad it happened and in an odd way felt this enormous sense of relief.
it took me until today to say i was sorry to my brother - no expectations, no conditions - while he growled back at me but i was able to with a clean heart
another post this one about S and H:
the "dreaded" day arrived - when H and s came back from their trip. he called from the airport - quite trashed (up till 3 in the morning) to basically ask if they could come here straight from the airport. i said yes and said i'd have dinner ready. i had no idea where s was going to be tonight - at H's house or mine and we decided to let s decide - H was actually not in any shape to keep him - he's been at a conference where it started really early every morning and then they all hit the bars and drank until 3 am - for 4 nights!! yes - i know - i've always joked in the past about how when he comes back from that conference, it takes him a week to recover!!
so they walked in and since i was just starting dinner - he decided to go out and mow the lawn ( i didn't let him do it last fall when all this started, even though he wanted to - today i just shrugged and said great!)
after dinner, he wanted to get on line and couldn't get onto his email account so i went over to help him - told him to put in his password again, and he put his hand on my shoulder and asked in a sort of joking way - don't you know it, haven't you been checking my email lately. i just smiled up and said, "no way, i learned when i snoop that it just comes back to bite me in the a$$!"
that's the first time he touched me in months (there were a lot of hugs etc in the first couple of months before the "withdrawal") and it was strange - i got the feeling that he did it deliberately and was very conscious of doing it.
later i casually invited him to see my new work room - i think he was a little shocked at the huge change. it was all too much for him, i think - i had had to tell him this evening that i had just discovered 2 days ago that we/rather he had over drafted on our bank account - he freaked out - that's a HUGE no-no for him and since he was so sleep deprived and really really trashed, he almost couldn't handle it - i could see him really trying to hold it together.
i took the opportunity of touching him the same way on his shoulder, and calmed him down and told him we could deal with it later. i think he left feeling really overwhelmed - but after some sleep, i'm sure he'll be fine
about s - i think he's really hurt by H right now - H didn't call him even once in the 5 days and s told me that h had told him that the conference went until 7 every evening and then they hit the bars and he probably wouldn't have time to call him.
i talked to s every night and even though he was having a great time with his best friend, if i made any reference to h, he wanted to say bye and get off the phone.
as soon as they got here, s said that he wanted to stay with me
so it's hard to tell what's really going on - mowing the lawn, touching - i want to see them as baby steps - but right now, they feel like the shadow of a baby step. it will be interesting to see how the next few weeks develop - this month has been sort of a landmark month for 4 months now - and finally we are beyond it - what a bloody relief!!
oh gosh - those are long posts!!
my 180 for today:
one of our friends, who absolutely loves my mom's cooking and her, and who has never called me once since the separation, which i have felt very hurt about. well i just decided this afternoon - that i am NOT going to let H have so much power over this situation that i lose my friendship with him and his wife and little boy. i have "waited " for them to call - and suddenly today, i was like oh my gosh, if i wait they never will, and it was suddenly so clear to me - i have to make the first move. so i took a plate of indian sweets that my mom had sent me home with, which i know he absolutely loves and just went over and broke the ice.
he was very abashed, but also seemed really relieved, and his wife too and i said i'd call the next time s and i had a potluck and they seemed thrilled. i kept it quite brief
it felt really GOOD to do something that MADE ME FEEL GOOD - even though i cried all the way after that in the car - can't figure that one out!!
i decided today that i'm NOT going to let H run the show anymore, with his tension and bad behavior - i am only going to do what feels good to ME!
YAY!!!! ME, ME, ME!!!!
and s of course
Hey Zig - lots of good reflection. Very glad your "reaching out" to friends was a positive.
Have you had a chance to think about what it was that made you cry on the way home?
Also, you mentioned the sexual abuse as a child. I'm so sorry. Its awful to see you and so many others who have had to face such hideous acts. Its also so sad to see the long-term impacts it has on so many lives.
I mentioned a friend who had an affair on his w several years ago. Turns out his W was sexually abused by her grandfather when she was little. She had never told anyone. My friend found out while his affair was going on and that was part of what made him stop the affair and work on his M. This is also the friend who was able to restore his M.
My W came from an abusive home as well. She says she was not sexually abused but one of her sisters was by their father. I can't help but wonder how this plays into her situation now. I've mentioned it in the past but until she is ready to go there and deal with the wounds, there is no point in bringing it up again.
Hope you have a good week.
hey ces - sorry took so long to answer - s arrived home quite ill and have been taking care of him all day today.
thanks for your kind comforting words - they mean a lot.
your last para sort of opened a can of worms for me a bit- there's a lot i want to write back to you, but am not sure where to start and am sooo tired right now.
one of the things i found out about the long term consequences is that there are a lot of effects on the siblings, especially if they knew or kind of knew, while it was going on. young kids can sense something is not right and even though they may not know it consciously, i wonder if they carry some innate guilt, even if they were in no position to do anything about it. when it's the father, it's even worse (i'm so sorry your wife had to experience that)
i just found out for myself after all these years that i am so deeply angry with my brother - poor little child he was only 3 or 4 at the time, but he was there - and after my reading about all this, i found out that it can create havoc in a sibling relationship because of this. and it definitely did and it affected my relationship with h big time
so your instinct that there might be issues along those lines that your w is struggling with may be bang on the mark, but you're also right that she has to come to it herself - your suggesting or referring to it may send her deeper into withdrawing from facing it.
h always threw the "this is because of your sexual abuse" card at me, the most when he left, and i have really struggled with that. now i find myself freed of that burden in some ways, seeing much more clearly what i have to deal with
hope you're well
zig
weird weird weird - i think i detached - somewhere in the last few days - i'm suddenly like fed up of all the drama and i couldn't care less, just need a break from all of this.
how's that for a 180?
of course could be tomorrow this time, i am weeping and something has triggered me, but i am LOVING the feeling right now.
i simply don't have that quaky hole in my chest right now - and i can't say that has happened before!!
nice!!
one thing that has helped me a lot these past few days - i found these youtube videos where Esther Hicks(Abraham) is talking about manifesting your desires and detaching and i've been choosing the ones to watch about how to feel good and let go and damn if they don't help a lot
also saw this other one that was really peaceful where this woman repeats "I am where I am and it's OK" for 10 mins in this really calm soothing way, and i find myself saying that to myself all the time
sometimes i think, what we are doing here is really "brainwashing" ourselves into being okay with our ditches and with ourselves. it's good!!
oops meant ditches, not ditches, but heck, ditches fits pretty well too:)
oops meant ditches - and no i haven't had a drink or anything - just tea!!
oh oh now i'm giggling!!
seriously , i can't believe i hit "d" for the third time
SITCHES!!!
check this youtube video out
Abraham - The only relationship to focus on is between you and you
thinking like that really displaces one out of the powerless, victim state into a more empowered place with a lot more clarity
LOL! For a minute, I thought I was reading an SNL skit. "Ditches, I mean ditches, no seriously what is wrong with me, I mean ditches. D'oh!!" Cracked me up!
i was definitely having a giddy moment there! it was a nice change from 7 months of feeling miserable. glad i gave someone else a chance to laugh too
cheers
zig
Hey Zig, I had to read that a few times myself! Too funny.
It's interesting you mention siblings. As long as I have known my wife, 23 years, she has never really wanted a relationship with her biological siblings. She has 3 sisters and a brother. All have had issues with substance abuse and/or anger issues. She separated herself from them before I knew her. I can't recall an exact reason that she stated but the impression I always got was that she wanted to get away from the craziness that she had grown up with.
Sad part is since the bomb, I've had others comment that she is living more like her biological family now and how sad it was.
Hope the can of worms wasn't a bad thing for you. Take care and watch out for those ditches!!
bring on the cans, and the opener - i am so ready to just deal with everything and get past all that has been so cumbersome all my life.
as for those ditches - well, i am starting to think that this ditch i'm in ain't such a bad place to be after all - i can't help but thank the h for waking me up to all of this and giving me a great chance to unburden my past.
i did the same as your sister - really stayed away from family and only really kept in touch with my mom. going down last week was a huge thing for me - same old craziness, but this time, at least for me, a lot of healing. will be interesting to see how it plays out fro my brother who is definitely dealing with some huge issues, and is in the same place emotionally and mentally as the WAS's here
i'm sorry that you have to have it confirmed from others that your wife has "reverted" in a way. wonder if that's a common thread in these ditches too - this sort of reverting to a child state and acting out something there (the mlc lit definitely talks about that)
take care
zig
i really need some advice on my switch
the week before h left i really forced the issue about us starting to go to counseling for s (not take s, at first, but just h and i go).
at the time, i was really worried about s and thought it was the best thing to do - also pressured a lot by both h's mom and my mom about it.
now i'm realizing that i was forcing h to do and agree to something he doesn't want to do or agree with.
what should i do?
during IC before my trip, t said she didn't think i was ready for the counseling with h about s and the appointment should be cancelled or postponed.
if i do cancel it - how should i put it to him?
thinking about saying something along the lines of - i realized i wasn't really listening to you at the time when you were trying to say that you don't agree about going, and i realize that there's no point to go if you're not ready too. also after discussing it with my counselor, who pointed out to me that i have a lot of stuff to work through that i am not in a position myself to deal with any of it.
i feel like a blew some of the rules big time, back there - because i was going on about we need to figure out how to move forward in this.
or should we just go, and me not do anything?
could really use some help here
thanks
zig
If your H feels forced to go to C, then maybe its best to cancel. Your statement above about going is good. I would just leave it at the part about validating his feelings and leave off what your IC said. Focus on the fact that you are trying to hear him. If it comes up, you can share the part about what your IC said about you but keep it short.
My W and I went to counseling after we moved here. She had said we needed to before the move and I agreed. As we went to sessions it was obvious that she was not engaged. Finally our MC called it out and said it was like going to piano lessons but never practicing between lessons. I was pretty upset about it. She turned it that I was forcing her to go. That was this past Sept or Oct. when I cancelled all our sessions. I've not brought it up sense and neither has she.
So my experience is if the WAS isn't ready, it won't do much good anyway. But give hime the option, not the "out". See what he says and be OK with either answer. Good luck.
Zig,
I am fairly new here and certainly no expert, but I would keep your info short and sweet. For instance, maybe now is not the best time to go to C. What do you think, H?
Giving him info about what your IC says to you during T isn't going to help you. And if your H is anything like my H, the more I talk (the more words I use), the less he actually listens and hears what I say.
Good luck!
HELP!
I really need some advice right now - are there any vets around who could chime in? i'm trying not to sink into panic mode, and i'm actually calm too, but
Do these words mean something one way or the other?
h "we don't know where each of us stands - i don't know where you stand and you don't know where i stand"
me "well do you want to tell me where you stand?"
h "i don't want to get into that conversation right now, it's late and s has to go to bed"
i'm thinking - he's either going to tell me that he wants a divorce and ow is moving from her state to live w/ him here, or he's moving down there (worst case)
or - he wants to move back in and make it work
does him wanting to know where i stand MEAN anything or am i reading way too much into those words.
why would he want to know where i stand?
just remembered - he actually said - "i know where i stand, but i would guess you don't know where i stand"
i replied that yes its true i don't know where you stand - but i'm pretty sure i know where i stand and then i asked if he wanted to tell me where he stood
he didn't try to ask me where i stood on the issue
It could mean anything-have no expectation and wait to see what he says.
thanks labug
i'm actually quite calm - i just realized that either of those options and i'll be okay. i'm not quaking with fear as i thought i was going to - just quiet - am i in shock of expecting him to say the worst?
i have to put son to bed and then i can come back and post about what the therapist said today which did shock me and maybe i'm a bit numb with that
i'm quietly tired - between the events of last week with my family, taking care of s while he's been sick and being quite sleep deprived, i just feel a bit down and tired.
labug is right.
If he does tell you, then validate his feeling that way. It doesn't mean that you agree with his POV, just the fact that he feels that way and has a right to.
If he starts saying something about how you SHOULD be feeling (in his mind) politely tell him that you have a right to feel how you do as much as he does. And they don't have to match.
Being overly tired and stressed always does me in. I'm much more emotional and operate from my lizard brain.
no, that's the funny thing - i'm not emotional right now really - maybe just a bit numb? actually i don't even know - my mind feels really clear and okay but very tired at the same time.
a lot has gone down in this last month and i have detached considerably - i still want us to try, but at the same time i know really clearly that i would have to see some significant changes form h rot convince me it's worth even going there.
and if he decides now that yes he does prefer a divorce, in spite of the health insurance, the thought of it doesn't make me fall apart
the IC , out of the blue, said to me that she thinks we are headed for divorce - at the 4th appointment. it took a while to sink in - and even then i didn't start freaking but found myself calmly thinking that i don't have to believe that and it's not over until it''s over.
sadly though - i am wondering now if she is as pro marriage as i thought she was - in spite of her telling me at the first appointment that she didn't think either of us should start filing for anything yet. when i called her up on that, she said that after hearing how h has been behaving, she said this.
i asked her - why do you think this - just because he's having an affair like this? and she didn't really give me a clear concise answer - it was almost the end of the apptmt so we din't have time to get into it
what h said above was part of a pretty long phone conversation - which i'm too tired to get into right now.
also, i don't think i posted this but on monday when he stopped by to see sick s10 who was asleep, he sat down and didn't want to leave and we chatted for quite a while. noticed him, for the second time saying "we this, we that"
i know - no expectations, of course - but are those baby steps? - is he feeling the situation out? i mean, after 7 months of "I this, I that" the "we" sort of stuck out very obviously
i remember thinking while he was sitting there - oh my gosh - that feels like the H i know and love - it's not that tense angry accusative alien whose been here all these months
funnily - he left quite reluctantly, and then - 2 days of withdrawal
tonights conversation was initiated by him - about going to the counselor to talk about s. he wants to meet and get clear "what we are going to focus on with the shrink "
he asked if he could call at 9 to discuss tax stuff tomorrow morning and i said no, that's not a good time and he asked why, and i said i have started a very strict work schedule and i'm not interrupting it for anything except emergencies. then he said - well could i call at 1, and i said well i suppose so, i could change my lunch break hour to an hour later.also said that i needed a couple of days notice about when we were going to meet to talk
that's a 180 for me - i have been very accommodating always about when he can call and been available to talk - in the first months.
here's the other thing i'm thinking - he's always "nice" to me before he drops a bomb or takes a step - and that's why i'm suspicious - that's a pattern i saw in the beginning of this switch. we slept together 3 or 4 times after the separation (i know - stupid me, what an ass i was then) and he'd sleep with me and then the next day tell me something big - like i got my own place.
i learned real fast. so wondering if it's more of the same now.
oh trust - where art thou??
this morning while driving the kids to school - was thinking about why h asked about where we both stand - and i realized that all it is, is that he is unnerved by the signs of me "moving on" , and just reacting to that.
part of the "dance".....??
Its all mind-reading until he tells you. Probably is part of the whole process. At least he's inquiring about the R and where you both stand. hope it turns into a productive conversation for you both
What would Pema do?
thanks ces - i hope it does too
and yes, finally , i am getting the point that there's no use in trying to analyze or mind read
Sit still
thanks ces and labug for being here for me - i really feel your support. i hope you are both doing well
(((( ))))
zig
He's asking because he's trying to keep control over the situation. If there are any unknown variables, you'll find that the WAS doesn't like that.
thanks mrbond - for looking in on my sitch - i really appreciate it.
and i believe you are right - i wasn't thinking of it as control, but i did associate his discomfort with some of the larger changes i've made that really come across as me moving forward or moving on.
i'm expecting (yes, i know no expectations!!) or rather i should say if he goes according to form, he will be creating a somewhat chaotic or confusing situation in the very near future - as soon as this weekend.
he has in the past few days said that we need to have a "financial discussion" and now, yesterday he said we need to talk about what we are going to talk about at the therapist's next tuesday.
i've gone through these "conversations" with him multiple times - where it starts off with him sort of going through how he is sure about what he's doing because he can see how happy i am since he left etc. (the usual schpeel) , then when i calmly tell him that i am happy for him if he has indeed found true happiness in what he is doing, or if i lay any new boundaries - and then we have the "I am so conflicted" conversation with a lot of angst and emotions.
i came to realize that nothing comes of these and nothing will - and it's just him testing me. i also know now, that it's better to validate his feelings, and i have to get better at listening more
until he starts the conversation with - i ended the A with OW, i don't really have much to say to him.
please advise me more if you have any thoughts - i can use all the help i can get
thanks again
zig
journaling
still quite tired but a lot better today. managed to focus on work and get a good bit done. it's hard working at home now - i loved doing it before, but now i wish i had a job to go to, it would make the days easier to be away from our home for at least a few hours everyday
am sad tonight - had to bring up s10's going to h's house tomorrow. s and i have had a beautiful few days together - in fact - he was the calmest and most serene since this whole sitch started - i sense that he was so relieved to be back home with me after his difficult trip with h.
i have been dreading all week pointing out to him that he goes to h's on friday, and almost expecting him to say no when i brought it up.
he faked being enthusiastic - but immediately after started acting up and everything made him weepy - after dinner we went for a walk - and it got worse and worse. i was practically in tears by the time we got home.
i don't really know how to communicate with him when he gets like that - i am struggling with my own emotions of the sitch causing this and struggling not to be angry with h about it
this evening i found myself thinking that wow - this situation, this experience is causing and forcing me to turn over and inside out EVERY last belief and value that i have had.
in order to handle this i have to learn to accept and be okay with not being able to fully protect my child. it triggers off very difficult issues for me - connected to the sexual abuse - i have been over protective of s - or been told by h that i am (but nobody else seems to think so) and now, this situation really really tests me - i am too vulnerable in this area
if there is anything that will ultimately make me walk away first is this issue about how s is affected - specially after h started saying a few weeks ago that "i don't want to protect s from the realities of life" ... (talk about being challenged in one's weakest area - and then i wonder if he just did that to me all these years..)
sorry - i had to rant - i feel like wailing - that i want s to stay with me all the time..
s couldn't get himself to say he wanted to stay here, - i could see it - all he could manage is that he wanted to come for the afternoon after school and definitely not have h pick him up , and that he would stay the afternoon with me even if he didn't have a play date. that's huge for him to even say that
does anyone have any thought about what the IC said to me ? would love some feedback from you guys
thanks
zig
Zig what did the IC said that bothered u? And why are u asking us instead of your IC? Are you getting free counseling? If not than you need to ask your IC. Hang in there
hi rick
i was at my 4th appointment and after describing recent events which had been hard for s (with h's behavior), and also talking about my family, we moved onto discussing how i should approach the counseling that h and i are going to go together to next week - it's to talk to a counselor who specializes in kids as s is not dealing with this very well
My IC had agreed earlier to go through this with me. she really caught me by surprise after i asked her what was the best way to bring up some of the stuff h is doing without making it sound as if i am pointing the finger or criticizing. her response was "well you can start by saying something like this: since h and you are headed for divorce, what's the best thing we can do for son?"
i immediately called her up on it and basically her reply was a shrug and saying well from what you're telling me that's what it sounds like. i asked her - so you think just because he's having an affair and the way he's doing it, divorce is the only thing you see (and this is at the 4th appointment) - she didn't really say anything clearly after that.
okay - so another complication? she's an old friend of mil's. at the first appointment i stated clearly that i wanted to see her only if she was pro-marriage and used a solution-oriented approach and she avidly said yes. in fact she asked me if either of us had filed for divorce or separation and when i said no, she said let's hold off on that and not be hasty about it
i reminded her yesterday that she had said that and her reply was something along the lines of well that's before you told me stuff
i'm disappointed - and now feel a bit stuck, because the counselor we are seeing with h is her colleague in the same office - what a mess! and if she plants that idea in her head -
oh - i'm so tired of trying and that's the problem isn't it? i'm trying.
i'm so confused - i want to help son out - he's not so good in this, and i'm so confused about how to arrange this with bloody h insisting non-stop that there is no way this sitch could possibly be affecting s..
even though for months i have been wanting h to go with me to talk to someone about s, to make sure we are not messing up, and both families are very concerned for s, now when he's agreed to go, i find myself in this bloody mess, and suddenly have this strong feeling that this person we are going to is not right for us
am i making too much of all of this? one of the "flaws" in my personality that i'm really trying to work on
thanks rick, for taking the time to read -
zig
Yes you are creating a crisis where there isn't one yet. Calm down. The IC is bound by legal and ethical standards. Remember to ask the thepapist about what goals are you guys working on. What will things look like when the work is done?
You said that you are making to much of this and that it is a flaw. Can you define it? What would you call what u do?
Hope you have a great day today
i guess i forgot to mention that when i had first expressed my concern to the IC about me and h going to see the counselor with us having very opposing views, and that i needed help to find the right approach, she said that she would discuss it with the child counselor and co-ordinate with her.
the opposing views are that h insists that s is much much better off in this situation with him leaving because it was horrible for s.
from what i see, s is really having trouble emotionally with this and is entirely unable to express it. for 7 months, all this child has been told is "dada and mama argue so i'm going to live somewhere else"
you're right , not only do i need to calm down - which i have, but i also need to detach from the effect this is having on s until i resolve my own issues about how much i need to protect s from emotional upheaval. i sat on it for a long time last night and realized that i want to protect s from hurt that it is really affecting my reactions to this sitch.
venting a bit, sort of in the same vein as my reply to rick above.
on the other hand, i see all other parents do this, and frankly i don't think i "protect" him any more than the next parent. but the problem is that when i DO see him being hurt, my reaction is much more intense and that is definitely linked to my own issues.
i guess using the word "flaw" was maybe not the best one. more that this is something in my personality/character that could do with a bit of redefining and clarifying.
for years h criticized me heavily - extremely heavily , about how over-protective i was with s and always pointed out that it was about my being sexually abused.
now in the last years, i have been very confused. i've talked to moms with kids that are my s's age, and they have demonstrated and described their own reactions and ways of protecting their kids and i've found that i was not particularly over-protective at all.
but there definitely is a rise in me when i am faced with it.
thursday evenings and fridays are very bad - as soon as i remind s on thursday evening that he will be going to h's the next day, some kind of little hell breaks out. he starts acting out a lot , and i am NOT allowed to mention it or refer to it (him going to h's) in any way. i'm already feeling emotional because i hate for him to leave and then have to watch the only way he knows how, to express his pain
i'm hating the idea of going to the counseling with h. i'm so upset about what is going on with s that i don't trust that i can be calm, collected, pleasant, clear, concise and detached.
i'm so afraid that i'll get triggered and will just scream out all my hurt and pain and all of s's too.
i was feeling sort of okay about the sitch but when the IC said how she thinks we're headed for divorce, i was like oh [censored] - i can't stand the idea of dealing with h for years and years in the state he's in - it was difficult enough these last years, but now it's a nightmare.
sorry for the rant - this friday is the worst - because after 6 months of having s only every other week, i had him for the entire month of march except the 5 days when they went on their trip. s became emotionally so okay during this time, and all that strange behavior was gone, and then it hit me in the face yesterday evening as we both had to deal with going back to the previously established one week at a time.
the worst is that s won't say one thing about it - i wish he would scream and shout - but he can't because we all know that emotions are NOT allowed to be expressed in this family - h disapproves and so it's not done.
Zig,
I'm so sorry for the way your sitch is playing out w/ your son. My kids don't have regular visits from their dad yet, so I can only imagine how difficult it is for you. I can tell you my D8 has nightmares the night before, the night of, and the night after she visits w/ my H, along with awful temper tantrums (not in front of H though).
However, when I was reading your post, I had an idea for you, if you don't think it will work don't use it - you won't be hurting my feelings. Get your son a calendar and have him color in (one month at a time) the days/nights your H will be visiting with him. Hang the calendar up in his room or on the frig, wherever. You need to stop reminding him about the visits, he's partly feeding off of your emotions. And your sitch is anything like mine, my kids feel like H didn't just leave me, but he left them, too. So, they all kinda feel like they have to side with the parent who hasn't left - if they want to or not.
Maybe this will help your son not feel badly about leaving to be with his dad.
Hope it helps! Sending you hugs!!
i'm hating the idea of going to the counseling with h. i'm so upset about what is going on with s that i don't trust that i can be calm, collected, pleasant, clear, concise and detached.
i'm so afraid that i'll get triggered and will just scream out all my hurt and pain and all of s's too.
And you say this like it's a bad thing?
Who says you have to be calm, collected, pleasant, clear, concise and detached about things that you are passionate about?
Who says that you can't show your human side?
Who says that others should not know that you are hurting...?
Has your H ever seen this in you? I don't mean the little pouty side... I mean the "holy geezus, here comes the wrath of a woman" side...?
Maybe it would be a good 180 in a safe environment of the counsellor's office...
thanks memo for your suggestion - i will definitely try it out - though what comes to mind right away is that he won't even think of looking at it.
will try to find some variation on that- like getting him to cross each day out so then he sees it.
i have been very aware that he maybe feeding off my emotions, and and so have been very casual and careful about how i bring it up. i was worried that the way i put things was maybe triggering the reaction and so i asked my extremely level-headed friend to help me word things in a more neutral even way- even that didn't help.
i'm sorry to hear about your kids - and about your d8 having nightmares - that must be so hard for you. do your kids talk about how they feel or even ask questions?
for s10 - here's the scenario - me saying - i'm packing your stuff to take over to dada's tomorrow, do you want to include anything? and that's all it takes.
or - dada will be picking you up at 5 on friday. he'll answer oh great, but then the rest of the time until friday is major acting out
i mean i have to say something - he's complained to me a lot that no one tells him anything. and at least when he's with me i make the following weeks plan clear for him so he knows what to expect. he stays the whole week at h's but i have him at least 3 afternoons after school. h doesn't tell him anything at all, so i have to let him know in some way.
maybe i am looking at this the wrong way and need a fresher perspective
thanks for helping me out:)
zig
Put everything on the calendar, and maybe have him put it in his backpack. And how about he packs, or pulls out the things he wants to wear (and then you pack his socks & underwear, or whatever he's missing).
I've tried to be very open with all 3 of my kids. We go for walks on nice days and I try to spend individual time during the walk with each of them. I also try spending part of each day talking to each of them separately and together. I have explained that Daddy left Mommy, but still loves you 3 (although it really doesn't appear to anyone that he still cares about our kids). I explain that Daddy feels overwhelmed by so many bad things happening. Feeling overwhelmed is like a big tidal wave of problems. When you see a tidal wave, what do you think your choices are? They came up with drown or run. I agreed and said you could also swim through the wave (hence my title), which means work through your problems. Daddy will get there eventually, he's just not there yet.
And lastly, I have tried to have a very strict schedule where we've changed some things around. For instance, we now have dinner early (since we don't have to wait for H to come home). I've also planned meals for on a 2 week rotation schedule so they know what we're going to have for dinner each night, too. I'm trying to give them a bit of predictability during this time of extreme upheaval.
I know this was long, but hope something helps. I really think it's so hard to be a parent in this sitch when you see you child being hurt and there's not much you can do. Good luck!
Who says you have to be calm, collected, pleasant, clear, concise and detached about things that you are passionate about?
Has your H ever seen this in you? I don't mean the little pouty side... I mean the "holy geezus, here comes the wrath of a woman" side...?
Maybe it would be a good 180 in a safe environment of the counsellor's office...
hi KD - when i read your post i was immediately struck by the truth of it
but here's the problem KD- i was the "wrath of a woman" side all the time, and my 180 is to be patient, quiet, pleasant and understanding. i have not lost it with h since the beginning of this sitch except for twice when he really went over the line - and i know 100% that he has been amazed and awed -
i was always losing it before over every little thing. it has been the most amazing thing i have ever accomplished for myself. but like i said before - this subject is too close to me emotionally and that's why i think i'm freaking - how to keep my changes in place, when i'm so triggered off. (also i have finally realized that for h any extreme display of emotion is so threatening that he shuts down, and the more neutral one is, the better he can hear you)
my dilemma is applying the 37 rules here - if i point out how troubled s is to h during counseling - he takes it as criticism and me trying to talk him into coming back. how on earth do i separate these 2 things, since all these problems would not exist if h wasn't having an affair, lying to s and everyone else, blowing s off to go see ow, taking s on a trip and blowing s off, etc etc
it's ironic how he goes on about s being better off because we don't argue, and can't even begin to see the deeper damage he is causing. how i can see s disengaging from him week by week, and watching their relationship deteriorate. h literally brags about how great their relationship is, and how it is not like his own with his father, and is completely blind to how it is BECOMING like it.
i know that it is not my responsibility how their relationship is or becomes - but where i feel i need to do something as a parent is to be able to find the right way to let this man know how his child is hurting. i really think that s would like to just live in this home with me - but he is so loyal to both of us that he doesn't dare even think it. but he shows it all the time.
and maybe i'm wrong, even in that?
in this kind of sitch , would i be blowing all the DB'ing i've done if i just said to h - stop fooling yourself - this child is pained to be with you even though he adores you? - or a milder more loving version of that?
thanks for your help
zig
but here's the problem KD- i was the "wrath of a woman" side all the time, and my 180 is to be patient, quiet, pleasant and understanding. i have not lost it with h since the beginning of this sitch except for twice when he really went over the line - and i know 100% that he has been amazed and awed -
You know YOU best, but I do want to ask for some deeper honesty, here... were you really h3ll on wheels ALL the time?
OK, maybe you needed to replace your pressure valve because it wore out and opened too often... but I've not yet met a woman that exploded at everything... more likely you felt that way... so when your H tells you that is the case, you think it showed up more than it really did...
But... let's say that is a truth...
Then the second part of the above, that is great! THAT is appropriate! Keep doing that...
But you need consistency... and you can't deny your motherly instincts to protect your children...
So when it is appropriate, you need to not be afraid to be that momma bear...
Make sense?
My theme this week is the "double bind". Look it up in your favourite resource...
Intense feelings of frustration and anger often can find it's root in being in a double bind.
It does not have to own you, take your power back.
Because it sounds like your H has convinced you that your anger is what pushed him away, so you are seeking to get rid of ALL your anger, hoping it will win him back, because if it shows up again, it will just be more proof to him that you haven't changed...
He needs you to be in the double bind, because it is his power and control over you so that he can deny any problem with him and not have to do his own, internal work...
When you feel yourself begin to vibrate in your boots... look for that double bind...
wow - thanks for telling me how you do it - it really helps.i love your analogy of the tidal wave. i envy that you have the ability to talk to your kids in that way. you sound really special:)
in the beginning when we first told s, h insisted that we keep a united front and went along with it - giving the impression that we both decided. i think s didn't buy it though - he clearly sees it as h having left - what he is finding out is that i am the constant, no matter what, and h comes and goes at his convenience in a way.
here's what happens when i try to talk to son about it - i don't know what you are talking about. what's the problem , why do you keep saying something is wrong? everything is fine, i'm just going with the flow
if i imply that this might be hard for him, i just get the same response or silence or him getting really mad about something else while he's trying not to cry.
i believe that there are 2 things at play here - my own inability to bring it up in a way which helps him to open up and the exact character traits in him which are in h which brought us to this sitch.
no matter how bad they feel, they will NOT under any circumstances admit to it and will instead get angry at the other person for even suggesting that they don't feel good. i couldn't get through to h because of that for all our marriage, and so i guess now when i have to face it in s, i find myself feeling utterly helpless.
ironically - when h walked away, he managed to open that part of him that allowed himself to let out a decade of feelings and he is allowing me to validate them now.
oh Kaffe - you are seriously BRILLIANT!
i have to go do a couple of things and then i shall answer, but wanted to let you know that you just bloody hit the nail on the head as they say over the pond!!
in one flash you made me see it so clearly AND made me feel so much better
thank the universe i found this place and all you great people - those WAS's are seriously missing out here
OK, I have another suggestion for you, one my mom gave me to help talk with my S14. Instead of having a face-to-face discussion with your son, try driving around. He can let his guard down becase he doesn't have to make eye contact with you. Just keep driving until you feel like he's said what he needs to say.
My H also tried to convince me to say that "Mommy and Daddy decided it would be best..." I changed the script and said "It has been decided that..." I also told him I would not lie to my children for him or protect him over my children.
I know it'll be hard to change the script now, but keep in mind that you need to let your son know that this is not your choice and you're working your way through it and want to help your son however you can.
You can do this! HUGS!!!
You know YOU best, but I do want to ask for some deeper honesty, here... were you really h3ll on wheels ALL the time?
you're right - i wasn't. but i would get really fired up when he kept pushing me. i would beg him to give me some space, let me have a quiet moment, but no - about a couple of minutes was all i got and then i would lose it after an hour or so
on the other hand, i "nagged" - actually asking him on the way out the door if he remembered the diaper bag was the equivalent of telling him he was the most useless person on earth in his mind - the question implied heavy criticism
but don't forget - if you haven't read all of my thread - from oct 2006 to last spring i was in the throes of concussion and post concussion syndrome with a movement disorder and extremely high levels of anxiety and fear, and he had way to much to deal with. i went to therapy but he wouldn't participate and things got intolerably bad, we both got very depressed and until about a year ago it looked as if i would be helpless, disabled and depressed for the rest of my life. i believe that some version of ptsd plays a role in his doing this. you have no idea what i looked like - i'm in my 40's but i looked 90 - it was so painful for the people around me - they felt utterly helpless and so did i. he felt the most helpless, and it took a real toll on our relationship, but ultimately it took the biggest toll on him. he didn't understand at the time that he needed serious support so that he could help me in the right way and more importantly help himself by understanding that my behavior was not about him but about the serious struggles that coping with basic everyday things caused me to have extremely high levels of anxiety because my brain that got bonked twice in 2 car accidents had caused to happen.
OK, maybe you needed to replace your pressure valve because it wore out and opened too often... but I've not yet met a woman that exploded at everything... more likely you felt that way... so when your H tells you that is the case, you think it showed up more than it really did...
for h - showing an emotion as mild as irritation made him insist that our entire marriage was [censored]. if we had an argument, it meant that everything was lost. his mom has told me that she and his dad have never once so much as argued(40 yrs last year, with 4 affairs spread out) - their counselor once asked them if they always talked to each other in that even, mild, tone and when they told him yes always 100%, no matter what was going on, he told them that it was very strange and bizarre. so can you imagine how traumatized h was every time i "blew my top" indian style - hot-headed as i am and passionate. 10 yrs of that - he must be seriously traumatized!!
..
Then the second part of the above, that is great! THAT is appropriate! Keep doing that...
thanks kaffe diem, i'm so happy that i can do it - it has taken a year and a half for me to fight and overcome the fight or flight syndrome thing that i had to deal with with the concussions - i've worked really hard to get to "normal" and look once again like the young beautiful woman i used to be - when i look in the mirror, i smile at myself - because i remember how i looked before:)
But you need consistency... and you can't deny your motherly instincts to protect your children...
So when it is appropriate, you need to not be afraid to be that momma bear...
Make sense?
you're right - but i need to be gentle momma bear - and very loving, and sometimes i don't trust that i can put my anger and resentment about this sitch aside - i don't completely trust that my changes are real, because i can feel the crazy emotions rising up and then i find myself freaking out (remnants?)
Because it sounds like your H has convinced you that your anger is what pushed him away, so you are seeking to get rid of ALL your anger, hoping it will win him back, because if it shows up again, it will just be more proof to him that you haven't changed...
man, when i read this sentence, i gulped. you are exactly right - that is what i have been doing - absolutely refusing to be angry because he's so convinced me that my anger drove him away
He needs you to be in the double bind, because it is his power and control over you so that he can deny any problem with him and not have to do his own, internal work...
and you know what's funny? when i read this, i remembered what happened about 6 weeks ago - when i was trying to get him to agree to go talk to the child counselor he kept ranting about how great s was and i did lose it a bit and actually got quietly pissed off and told him a bunch of stuff. it didn't drive him away, in fact he agreed to go after that. i didn't scream and shout - i was just quietly fed up and a bit disgusted. so maybe this fear of my anger driving him away, is more built up in my own mind than actually exists?
i'm really interested about this double bind stuff and would love to hear more about it - i'm sure i'm not the only one who would benefit from it
When you feel yourself begin to vibrate in your boots... look for that double bind...
thanks so much kaffe - what you wrote to me really pushed me to inspect deeper.
what i find more and more is that whenever i point the finger at h and start being mad at him about the way he is doing something or the way he is, if i take it one step further and turn the focus to myself, i find that i am doing a similar thing on some level or did it before, and then that helps me to correct my behavior.
sometimes in the middle of this sitch when i get overwhelmed by it and what is really happening, i tend to forget that h had some real [censored] to deal with. he stood by me when most spouses leave , and granted he has made some painful choices, but nobody except he and i know how painful our situation was. i wished that we both had made wiser choices over the years, and especially 7 mos. ago, but as they say, it is what it is -
thanks for walking me through this -
zig
thanks nemo - i like the driving idea - and yes we often have wonderful conversations in the car, s and i.
i have had to lie - because of ow . pretending to s that h is in one place when he is actually in another. and also to hs grandparents who don't know about ow. i've reconciled myself about that - it is more for s and grandparents so that they are not upset.
yes it will be hard to change the script now - i actually can't remember now whether i sort of said what you did (along the lines of it has been decided..) or if we said 'we have..)
s and i only had one conversation about it - the night before h moved into the house he rented - and we talked very openly about it. he asked how long before dada comes back and i said i don't know , what do you think - and he thought for a bit and said he thought minimum three months and maximum 1 year.
i thought at the time , oh good he and i will be able to communicate about this, but it was the only time it happened - after that he clammed up.
but i shall definitely put your suggestions into place after next week - and if you think of anymore, i'd love to hear them.
i want to be a better mom for son - need to stop being so self-involved and focus on him in a healthy positive way
journaling -
well after being so worked up all day, this afternoon i sat and read some of the posts in the archives and CALMED DOWN.
got myself back to a place of love, empathy and forgiveness and felt more grounded. heck, i don't know about the rest of you, but apart from the roller coaster WAS is creating here, i've got my own personal one that puts me through the hoops anytime i want!!!
s went to a b'day party and h stopped by the house to get s's stuff before he went to pick him up and take s to his place.
i could tell right away he wanted to talk, and i kept myself in a really good place mentally.
parts of the conversation:
h: i'm feeling really nostalgic looking at the garden - you and i did a lot of great stuff here and had some good times. me ; it's good to remember those times, it wasn't all bad. h: no it definitely wasn't all bad
H; when we go to the counseling next week, how is it going to be - i mean we are going to need to resolve our issues
me: we are going for s only , not to resolve our issues. do you think we could only focus on s and how to help him through this?... are you saying that we need to resolve our issues or that you want to resolve our issues?
h: i guess i'm saying i want to resolve our issues
me; how would you like to do that? - just the two of us talking or talking with someone?
h: you know how i feel about that. can we just try on our own first
i said that over the last months i had noticed that he and i were able to communicate better - and that it was a really positive thing. he replied that yes"both of us have changed a lot, and we wshould be able to work on things on our own..
i said that i was happy to have a conversation with him anytime and to let me know. it ended on a pretty positive note, where he seemed relieved - especially about the counseling. he asked if s and he could come over tomorrow and all three of us could work in the yard together, and i said yes that would be wonderful.
right before he left, he fumbled in his pocket and got all funny and then mumbled something. then he said "i feel really really weird about this, i feel really weird giving you a present but here's something from my trip abroad" i was really touched - it's the kind of present he loves to give - something he finds in nature and he knows i love getting rocks from different countries.
i have to say it was most unexpected - i showed i was pleased and also told him that he didn't have to feel weird about giving me a gift.
so once again, keeping myself in a positive good place mentally, always brings a positive experience - i need to trust here - it's only when i don't trust myself that i get all freaked out and start getting nuts over every little detail
thanks everyone for helping me through my nuttiness yesterday and today - i could only get to the calmed down place after being prompted by your observations and questions
zig
Not wanting to turn this into psych 101, as this is DB and therefore about solutions, not regression... but...
Yes, often what we don't like in others is a mirror of what we don't like in ourselves... so good you notice that...
also, be careful not to hold yourself to the double bind... you are convinced that your H had to nurture you and was deeply affected by your condition, so you need to be sensitive of his own hurts...
hold on, nelly...!!!!
You had a head injury (thank you for bringing that up; I haven't had a chance to read your whole thread)...
by the way, what's the current prognosis? 100% recovery or some lasting, permanent conditions? While you are making progress on your outbursts, were you always like that, pre-injury? Or is this possibly an artefact of the head injuries? I just read back and I guess you are saying that you were hot headed prior to the head injuries...
Just curious, some reference you made, including that of your H's parents... is he a brit by any chance? and are you portuguese or italian decent? It just appears that there are some cultural contexts at hand, here...
Regarding your H's parents not arguing??? Yeah, I call BS... and if it's true, then they have some serious issues... P/A much? I can imagine their home... on any given day... you could probably hear a pin drop...
Can you say "poor coping skills" in the children? Yeah, I can see that your H probably has not developed healthy conflict resolution skills.
What was your home like, growing up? Are you repeating patterns that you grew up with?
Your H won't just need to see your behavioural change consistently, over time... so will you... yes, probably remnants... just keep working on it and it will be more consistent and permanent...
And that's great for you... but that doesn't get your H off the hook... He knew he was marrying a hellcat... I can imagine what it must have been like, for him... and we are all entitled to change our minds... but that isn't an excuse for him to bail on you... naw... you can't let him off the hook, that easy...
That's the double bind... you've owned HIS issue... or his rationale... in effect, you are protecting him while he is controlling you...
And the reality of a double bind is actually that the control lies with the "victim"... It is the person IN the double bind that is the keeper of this position and the aggressor can be in a quite passive role or can even appear to be the victim if played right or in a specific context...
So here's where it "ends" as it were...
You are doing what you want to, to "fix" the thing in you (in this case, your hot temper) because you want to... because it's right for you... not because your H claimed that is what caused the end of the M...
So your proclamation is:
"
Yes, I am human and am capable of being angry AND I am a good person."
In this case... in your case... Anger has been made the enemy, or the tool of the enemy. When reality is that anger is a very normal, human emotion and therefore if you are a bad person because of anger, that means that every human is a bad person because they are capable and do feel and express anger.
A double bind is a lose - lose condition. So the only way out is through it. Accept the loss and move forward. Doing so actually turns the context around and creates a win - win result because a double bind actually holds everyone involved, stuck to the condition.
It's a tough one because it takes a lot of courage to get through and out.
When researching, check both:
double bind
AND
counter double bind
oh believe me kaffe - a lot of my anger these last couple of years was to do with the fact that early on, after researching what i was dealing with with the accident, found out that most spouses left their partners who had movement disorders - can't tell you how much it [censored] and how it affects oneself and everyone - i turned into a slightly paranoid, extremely fearful person who had to depend so much on the people around me that i completely lost my self esteem.
but i begged and begged him on a regular basis - please go talk to someone - this is too much for anyone to deal with and it is affecting you deeply. the standard answer i got was "you're the one who's f**ked here, not me, i'm fine"
he was great in helping and supporting me physically - but emotionally and mentally he made a real mess of things and it kept me in a much higher state of anxiety, after he moved out - i couldn't help but start to see how much better i was - with my nervous and anxiety levels, and kaffe, sad to say, but i AM really nervous about getting back together again just because of that. i will HAVE to see really clearly that the behaviors he used to use have changed in that respect.
in the first months when we talked a lot - before the withdrawal - he admitted with great pain that he had really done things wrong there. i really believe myself, and this is not trying to get him off the hook, that the wrong he did was NOT the way he handled things - the wrong he did was not to go get counseling to understand my condition - and how it was not about him and to him ,but that's how the brain functions under extreme stress
as for your question about how i was before - i had all my faults intact (grin) but post-concussion syndrome highly exaggerates any psychological or emotional behaviors so everything was much worse. add complete inability to emotionally connect to anything or anyone and you've got quite mixture there. i lost all my friends, completely could not connect to my work(i'm an artist) or to anyone in my family. i would sit and look at my s and my h in the first months and say to myself - wow i know i'm supposed to really love them, and i know i do, but i can't feel it like i used to - the same with my work
as for recovery - its a goddamn miracle - i still have the symptoms - but very mildly - my sleep disorder is under control thanks to hypnotherapy, it has taken me five years to work to this point - i can go for walks , am learning to ride a bike, and skated for the first time a couple of weeks ago (YAY) my friends are in love with me and so is my son - and everyone is just simply delighted - not to mention myself. i do yoga everyday now and can drive safely again - so all in all i would say 100% for sure - at least in my mind
the mental stuff is still a bit challenging - get overwhelmed and going into almost panic mode if i don't watch myself , i'm still working on that with my hypnotherapist who is amazing and has treated me for pain management and the sleep disorder for a year and a half for free. the meditation helps tremendously
i have been so amazingly lucky
funny you brought up the cultural difference issue - i'm from india and h is from the states - mid-west. i've lived in northern europe and the states before, so it was a bit of a struggle for him, me having been all over the place - or should i say, it was a struggle for me him not having been all over - i don't think he has a real good sense of how things are done very differently in other places
actually his parents really don't argue - ever - and as for having serious issues - yes - i think they are extremely dysfunctional in their relationship. i know you haven't read my whole thread - so repeating here - but h's sister did this with her married partner 2 years ago - they are divorced now - her partner couldn't forgive her...
h's parents are devastated - both their kids have done the same thing to their partners and they have lost the connection with both of them in the short space of 2 years. his father acts as if it's not going on, and his mom is spiraling into a depression. yes - several A's and as for coping skills - the only one they seem to have is pretend everything is okay and it will be. they lie to each other and hide stuff from each other all the time - so go figure what i'm dealing with here
my family is dysfunctional too in a different way - we didn't spend a lot of time together - i was sent off to boarding school at 7 until 19 with a couple of years at home. my father's mother who was a complete nut with serious anger issues lived with us and unfortunately i learned her way of dealing with things
these last months since i've "woken" up i have been steadily been addressing all these issues and working through them. i am amazed at how much i've learned and changed about myself - i don't seem to give myself a break - it's a constant non-stop finding out and peeling back the layers. i have a long way to go - and suddenly i'm realizing that i don't want h back right now till i work on this stuff - how crazy is that?
That's the double bind... you've owned HIS issue... or his rationale... in effect, you are protecting him while he is controlling you...
And the reality of a double bind is actually that the control lies with the "victim"... It is the person IN the double bind that is the keeper of this position and the aggressor can be in a quite passive role or can even appear to be the victim if played right or in a specific context...wow this is freaky - are you describing that this is going on now during this sitch, or that's what was happening during the years we were together?
you are right that i protect him a lot - in fact when he tries to apologize i've noticed that i excuse it right away - when i started noticing that, i am trying to figure out what that is about and stop doing it. he has to own his own stuff.
i'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my mind around this - so i'm the victim, but i'm also in control - or is it that i am "assuming " the victim role in order to stay in control?
when this sitch started - i suddenly saw in one split moment - that i simply couldn't continue the way i had been - and i could suddenly see how my anger had been a wall between me and my world for all my life. it was triggered off my h's actions, but the incentive to change it was much more far-reaching and deeper. it has taken me 7 mod. to work through and get to the crux of the anger and now there is this new sense of peace that i haven't ever felt before.
So the only way out is through it. Accept the loss and move forward. Doing so actually turns the context around and creates a win - win result because a double bind actually holds everyone involved, stuck to the condition.
when you say accept the loss - do you mean the total loss of the relationship? or the loss of the double bind? could you give me an example of how to move forward through it?
kaffe diem - i think you've helped me more in these posts here than all the therapy i've had. it's amazing the insight that you have into this sitch?
i really appreciate all the time you've given me - and don't worry i'm actually grateful you turned this into a sort of psyche 101
i do need to turn towards solutions though and not just dwell on this - i know i have to go through it to resolve a lot - but i think i'm in a good place now - at least the best i've been my whole life
i tried to look for your thread but couldn't locate it. is there a link or title?
zig
And the reality of a double bind is actually that the control lies with the "victim"... It is the person IN the double bind that is the keeper of this position and the aggressor can be in a quite passive role or can even appear to be the victim if played right or in a specific context...
i reread , and then i got it - i am the the keeper of the position because i take on and excuse his actions and issues. i was always so puzzled why he adopted this martyr/victim status when he was so vociferous and aggressive himself
during this sitch he has expressed a lot how wronged he felt and how he had to save himself by getting out.
so is the boucle bind present in all relationships that land up in these kinds of sitchs , or only some, depending on the dynamics of the r?
thanks
zig
ok KD , now you've got my head really working -some questions if you have the time, please?
if your answer to my question about completely ending this r and moving on was a yes, then this doesn't apply.
in the 37 rules, it says to validate their feelings - if one is trying to get out of the double-bind role , how does one do that without staying in that role?
guess i need a bit of tutoring here (grin)
for eg. if he says that he's really fearful about coming back because we will fall into our old patterns, he feels really vulnerable with me, (which is what he's said) - how do i validate that without owning my part in my actions
by owning my part in the situation, i have to describe what the effects of my behaviors were on him - is that me assuming the role in the double -bind , or me validating his fears and concerns?
thanks
zig
journaling
strange day yesterday, for me and the events that developed
h and s were supposed to come over to do yard work with me - woke up to a very cloudy day and even though it was supposed to rain it never really did. i worked quietly not expecting us to actually do yard work.
h didn't call until about 4.30 - and here's the strange thing: in the past uptil very recently , i would have got pretty cooked up about it , a little outraged and eventually pissed off, but i just shrugged it off. mil was getting that way and commented several times that he should have called and i just replied calmly - no expectations
so when he finally calls - it's to say oh i guess we're not doing yard work today, but btw would you like to go with s and me to his friends 40th b'day at a bowling alley? it was definitely a test - because i've never been and was even slightly disdainful of it before and the last minute notice , because that used to really stress me out before. i happily went even packing a dinner for s and had a great time
it turned into an unexpected opportunity to sort of "shine" in front of h - we only really know his friend and wife and a couple of other people. it was my very first time bowling and people were real excited and one of the other guys (who was the really really good) gave me a lesson - non-threatening coz his wife was sitting there about to deliver a baby anytime, but i noticed that after that h wanted to give me a lesson too!! there was so much attention from everyone that i was almost embarrassed (i'm very modest - something that h has always admired tremendously)
turned out i wasn't all that bad and even got a couple of strikes - and i think it was really odd for h to have to see me in this very positive light - it was a total GAL and 180 situation -i was really social and friendly and easy going (all things that were really hard to be after the accident)
s didn't do so well - he was quite tense, and didn't really relax at all - its been ages since the 3 of us did something together and he probably doesn't know what to make of it. all in all i think it went well, because there wasn't one moment when any tension rose up and no off comments - including 2 hrs in the car
i'm finding myself thinking - hey i could do better than this - i could be treated better than this - he's not looking all that attractive right now to me - personality wise. ...
well - easter with his family today. he won't commit to going or not going - mil is very pissed about that. so have no idea if he'll be there. that will be a first for him
happy easter to everyone
zig
Hey Zig
Great to hear about your day.
I so get the not-turning-up-as-planned side of it - my H does the same all the time on the weekends.
I sometimes think it's controlling behaviour on his part. He likes to keep us waiting for him at home by saying that he'll come over. I don't think he realises he's doing it.
The invite to go bowling was massive! And the way you handled it shows how much you've grown! Doesn't it feel great?
So sorry for your s - but he did get to see his mom modelling great bowling and social interaction techniques.
Hope your Easter with H's family goes well.
In my case, for the first time in 16 years, I was not invited for dinner on Sunday.
MIL and FIL just rang instead and said they were nearby and could they come and drop off some eggs for the grandkids.
Just realising I will probably never see BIL, SIL, nephews, and rest of H's huge extended family again....
But anyway, big hugs to you for doing so well.
NLW
Good for you with your 180's and making changes. I'm so happy that you had a good time and you're feeling your worth. Way to go!
hi NLW - thanks for the encouraging post. so sweet of you:)
i' so sorry to hear that you weren't invited - did you do something on your own? i hope so
i want to tell you about my own experience with the not having contact with h's side. granted, fro me it's about our close friends, and for you it's your h's family, so i will admit there is a difference there, if you choose to see it that way
for 7 mos. not one of our friends has so much as called to see if i'm alive. i was really hurt about it.and then about a week ago, i woke up one morning and said to myself - i am reacting to this as if these were only h's friends , not mine - i have my own relationship with them and i love seeing them, and i'm not going to give h the power over this by letting the contact go. i realized that they didn't know what to do and that i would have to make the first move.
so i just dropped by their house - which i used to do all the time, and even though it was hard, i could see the utter relief on his face and his wife's when she came in a little later. i invited them to a party at my place next week and they were delighted. i cried all the way home - i have no idea why, but i felt so good about it
the point is - after 16 yrs, you have established relationships with each of these family members, and you have the right to continue them. of course, if they are taking sides, then it's different. but after 16 yrs i can't imagine they don't feel the loss of your presence - they probably feel it as much as you feel it.
so give it a shot - try to connect with the ones you were closest to first, because it will be easier.
when we first separated - h was a bit surprised that i still kept going over to hang out with his grandparents and parents - and i told him straight that i had my own relationship with them and loved them very much and i was damned if just because he left i couldn't continue that
so think about it - the WAS doesn't get to decide how every last thing is - you get to play a part in how you want it to be to.
i have noticed h watching very solemnly as all of his family envelopes me and s in total love for 7 months. i know he notices it. but if i hadn't done it, i know all of them would have been too scared to come to me
hugs
zig
thanks jks. db'ing has been the BEST thing ever for me - i have been so lucky that i found this place and michelle's books. and now when i am really "living" it, i can see how effective it really is.
not in terms of h, but in terms of getting myself to a really good place emotionally and mentally
life is suddenly shiny, after so long...
I am struggling with this as well. I love my H's family so much. I was so close with them. They were MY family too just as much as his. I know they want to continue a R with me but it all hits too close to home. That was the life I used to have and probably will no longer be able to continue. Plus, now that OW is in the picture, they may find it awkward. But I want so badly to be able to have my relationships with them. I'm so torn!
I know they want to continue a R with mewell jus, what are you waiting for
besides it would be lovely for the kids also don't you think?
just go for it, you will find surprising comfort and support and it will make you feel good to be around people that you are close to. don't think of it as a life you left behind that is too painful to see again, think of it as the life you're moving forward into, and choosing who you want, to be a part of it.
it will help you be independent from h, mentally - you had your own relationship with them, not just a relationship because of his presence - it might have started that way, but if you were close to them, then it's what you made of it yourself.
besides if you were close to them, they are probably missing you too.
..at the most you'll get told no - and heck, i figure the LBS's skin has gotten pretty thick by now, so at least you tried, right?
give it a thought
journaling
today went smoothly - unexpected things - h being himself w/ s and me in the car - very relaxed, laid back - haven't seen that for 7 months
we stayed away from each other the whole afternoon at the easter party - lots of relatives, but not on purpose, the hour ride back was easy and once again the 3 of us were relaxed.
s was doing homework in the backseat and h initiated a lot of conversation - all to do with practical things - but his demeanor was entirely different - for the first time in this sitch he acknowledged that i had a lot going on with my work, and went through each day of next week confirming the details and letting me know in advance what was going on and asking really nicely for help with s as he's got some extra things at work
i did a couple of new 180's - saying i couldn't take care of s after school a couple of those days
we went in my car - and i had to drop them off at h's house - first time - and right before we got there, i said something and they both sort of pounced down my throat and started arguing with me about how wrong i was. in the past i would have jumped right in to prove my point, but this time i just didn't respond - sat there quietly while they went on and on - didn't say a word. that was one helluva a 180 for me and then they both fell silent.
s had a bad moment when it was time to hug and kiss goodnight, but i managed to diffuse even that and left with him smiling
also in the morning h and s came over and worked in the yard - i told h i wasn't going to join them as it wasn't planned and i continued with what i was doing inside the house. they both worked extremely hard and the back yard looks transformed
i'm feeling a bit weird - he's suddenly started doing all the things he used to do, and most of all participating in what needs to be done without being all painful and tense and agonized. it's just the way he's saying things - and saying "we" all the time
i'm acting relaxed around him, but inside i'm feeling suspicious, like i can't believe yet that it's real
i keep telling myself and really believe it - until i hear the words "i'm done with OW" and "I really want to work on this, do you?" there's nothing here for me, except taking care of s together.
what happened to me? i'm so calm and not pursuing AT ALL (in my mind that is) - stopped pursuing him directly a long time ago
so, i was hoping that someone would respond to what i had written earlier, i couple of days ago, so i'll mention it again (the whole thing is in a post a couple of days back)
h said that he "wants to resolve the issues between us"
i'm not reading a huge amount into it because he didn't give any indication of "to what purpose" he intended to do that - maybe he doesn't even know yet. or maybe he's exploring.
i keep thinking - he doesn't even know yet what it means to resolve issues - how much work and digging within himself he needs to go through
i guess i just want to ask, in case it comes up, so i can think in advance of how i want to respond and be prepared.
if he does indicate in anyway that he wants to try and work it out , my urge right now is to respond right away by saying that i don't want to even try until i know for sure that OW is completely out of the picture
on the other hand, if he is feeling his way back and needs to be more sure before he decides that , is it better not to bring that up at all and let him quietly come to it himself?
i'd love some feedback on this
also, Kaffe diem, if you happen to be reading this - i am already working hard on not owning his issues:)
thanks everyone
zig
First, I will support anyone who chooses to end their M... but I WILL challenge it. In the same way as I support everyone who chooses to stand, but challenge why and how...
in the 37 rules, it says to validate their feelings - if one is trying to get out of the double-bind role , how does one do that without staying in that role?
Validating does not have to mean agreeing with the other person. It simply means that you acknowledge they have a viewpoint and opinion and also acknowledging that it is their right to have ANY opinion or feeling or viewpoint... even if it does not match your own...
As a virtue, that one is called tolerance...
guess i need a bit of tutoring here (grin)
We all do... no matter where we are in a sitch... or in life...
for eg. if he says that he's really fearful about coming back because we will fall into our old patterns, he feels really vulnerable with me, (which is what he's said) - how do i validate that without owning my part in my actions
"
I understand that you feel that way. I might make mistakes along the way, but I will continue to work on my own growth and betterment."
You DO own your own mistakes. It's separate from validating.
You own what YOU are responsible for and you own your power of the things that you can control, which is yourself, and what you intend to do... followed by doing it... always follow up with action...
by owning my part in the situation, i have to describe what the effects of my behaviors were on him - is that me assuming the role in the double -bind , or me validating his fears and concerns?
You DO NOT describe the effects that you may have had on your H... or anyone... because you cannot know how the feel or what they think... even if words come out of their mouths in an attempt to describe it...
IOW, "I feel frustrated" or "I feel angry" might come from the same place in someone... but they FEEL it as frustration not anger...
If you say, I understand that what I did frustrated you... they could be thinking... "no... it didn't frustrate me... it made me angry... see, you don't understand..."
Rather, mirror their words...
H: I feel angry when you... [insert the reason here]
zig: I understand that you feel angry and I apologize for my part in that
Of course, if it has nothing to do with you, you do not need to apologize. In fact, even if you DID have a part in it, you do not have to follow with an apology. Just validate.
Or alternately, apologize... but only once...
If they state it again, you validate again. But if you've apologized and they ask you to apologize a second time, you simply remind them that you HAVE apologized, felt remorse for it and wish to move past it.
If they keep asking for repeated apologizing for some past harm that you have already apologized for, then the likelyhood is... they are (and most likely unconsciously) attempting to have you feel shame again, to get you back into the double bind...
So again...
You take back your power and control by indicating:
Yes, I understand how you felt [insert the word he used to describe his feelings] about my anger outbursts. I apologize for that. I am now working on controlling my anger and refraining from lashing out at you.
Done...
Is it that simple? Yes, it is.
Does it work that simply? It could, but just as likely it is not and will take time...
As you follow your words by action, he eventually begins to believe that a) you mean what you say, and b) that he will get one apology for a wrong and will not get back into the double bind...
hope that makes sense... it will take strength and courage, but you can do it...
thanks so much for all this help KD - you really gave me a lot of time and energy -
i need to fine tune a bit what i'm saying when i validate his feelings and when i apologize - the part i have to work on is where you said - don't assume what his reaction was to what i did
he hasn't really asked me to apologize for the same things over - as far as i remember - but let's see what is coming up in these talks that he wants to have "to resolve our issues" . i'll be able to tell more where his head is at - still in the same place as before or somewhere new...
can you tell me where your thread is - i don't seem to be able to find it -
thanks
zig
hope you had a great easter day -
Not a problem zig...
My current thread is in the "I'm thinking of leaving" forum, here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...263#Post2141263I was a complete basket case when I came here. I didn't have the courage and did not expect to read back on my old threads, but my first few posts at least, sound rather lucid... maybe I might read them, one day. They will follow one to the next as they are all linked.
They start here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...263#Post2141263Good luck with the read...
ok - so last night i left my coat and wallet in the car - and h drove my car to his place because s was asleep in the back, using my coat as a pillow.
a few mins ago, i went to put my coat on and put my hands in the pockets and pulled out a piece of paper that i had shoved in there
shite - it was the list of things to ask and talk about with the IC last week, and there on the top of the list was "how do i deal with this last minute everything with h, i see it as a control thing..." along with other stuff that's difficult for me to deal with
and now i'm wondering - DO WAS's SNOOP INTO LBS's STUFF?
because - today he suddenly was doing the opposite of exactly what i wrote there.
also i wondered if he went through my wallet - my little appointment card for the IC was in there, as well as my bank card for my separate bank account which he doesn't know i opened a couple of months into the sitch. he did hand me my wallet a bit oddly this morning
also in the other pocket was a whole bunch of little pieces of paper - all with stuff i have written to encourage myself - for several months i've carried them around and pull and read them every time i was having a bad moment. they were really worn out and torn up, and i had forgotten they were in there - there was also a list sort of similar to the 37 rules - and i'm like sh*t - i hope he didn't see that - i read through them and they're all stuff which basically encourages me to be in a good place, except one that said"play hard to get" OOPS
oh well - if he did see them there's nothing i can do about it now. i guess i have to be careful - not used to him being around so much as the last couple of days
thanks KD:)
i'll go look, but first some sleep i think
i was reading through crimson's thread and saw what 25yrsmlc wrote to him. hope it's okay to copy and paste it here - it started to answer the question i asked in my last post
[b"]If she won't guarantee piecing, you won't keep working on the R with the mother of your child?"[/b]
i haven't read all of crimsons' thread, so i don't know if the same applies to me, but i figure it does - i figure, if it comes up, i have to work towards him feeling safe enough where he can see it's worth guaranteeing, rather than demand it up front, which would basically be an ultimatum, right?
if anyone has anyone thought about what the IC said to me and how i should handle it, i'd love some feedback - i see her in an hour here
thanks
zig
Just that she has only an opinion. If you have a different one, discuss the differences. If you cannot agree to work on a common goal then maybe look for a new one. This also is just an opinion. good luck!
I'm sure you are already on your way to IC, but ces is correct. No matter what, anyone you talk to regarding relationships... and yours specifically... can only offer opinions... and sometimes... those opinions can be harmful towards your goals.
Get to know your IC and if you feel your IC is off your centre on a lot of things... either change your IC...
Or maybe... you might look at changing your centre...
Thoughts on whether WAS snoop?
Well... yes...
yes... they do...
It may not be the SAME type of snooping that a LBS does. Remember, an LBS is either looking to see if there are cracks in the WAS armour... or they are looking for ammunition...
The WAS is for sure looking at it from the yang position... ammunition first... then wanting to know what the LBS is up to...
Early on, my W would comment on aspects of my life that she found out through other parties... no idea why... did she snoop or did people just tell her stuff...? Some was bad... some was neutral... some might even have been seen as "good"...
But my W DID want to know about things I was doing... she'd ask me directly... mostly I would tell her, because I wasn't going to hide anything... but sometimes I didn't share, just because I didn't want to at the time...
But if your H DID snoop... well... too late to hide evidence...
My motto is... if you do NOT want someone to find out that you said or did something negative regarding them... then just don't have those thoughts... never mind writing them down or speaking them...
Otherwise... ALWAYS be prepared to own your words and actions...
Whether they are good... or bad...
thanks ces67 - i saw your reply just before leaving, and it helped me to reframe my attitude
i suddenly realized that instead of seeing it as something to resist, because i didn't agree with it , i could see it as an opportunity to find out what to do and how to proceed when two people disagree about something.
so instead, of ""confronting"" her with it, i brought up the discussion about what to do when two people agree to disagree - where do you go from there - and it was very positive and very enlightening.
her immediate answer was - well, you try to find out where the person is coming from within their values, and when you understand their values you can understand their position, which led to the discussion of why h used an affair to "solve" his problems, and i disassociated to solve mine
it was a great appointment - she was fascinated and enthralled by how much progress i had made, and her whole attitude changed when i told her about the events of fri-sunday.
we talked about h's trauma in therapy when he was 5 and his subsequent nervousness about going to this therapy together and we talked about how i could help to make it a safe place for him
suddenly it was more about how to keep moving in this positive direction (in spite of not knowing what his real agenda may be) and she even commented at one point that "you have worked really hard to get here.
there was no mention of the D word
thanks again ces
zig
Get to know your IC and if you feel your IC is off your centre on a lot of things... either change your IC...
Or maybe... you might look at changing your centre...
thanks kaffe diem, once again - i changed my centre - it's a much better way to go ( look at my answer to ces above, please)
if you do NOT want someone to find out that you said or did something negative regarding them... then just don't have those thoughts... never mind writing them down or speaking them...
it wasn't negative stuff about him, in the sense that i had written something like "how can i deal with the 'last minute' stuff with h - never committing to anything about s until the last moment - i find it quite stressful"
all i can think is , if he did read it, he took it to heart and changed it right away - by confirming each day and what we were doing for the whole following week. if anyone was doing a 180 there, i'd say it was h!!!
apart from him finding out that i'm reading "save your marriage" books and being on this website, i have nothing to hide from him except the "strategy" that we are using in db'ing, which i had written out and was in worn out fallen apart pieces of paper in the other pocket
time to clean the pockets out , ya think?
thanks for your thoughts on this
and if you have the time and would like to impart some more of your wonderful insights, i'd love to hear from you about what you think about h saying that he wants to resolve our issues - i could sure use some help in guiding the conversations in the right direction.
hope you're having a great day:)
zig