Been lurking these forums for a few weeks now and have already absorbed a lot of good advice and techniques as I read everyone’s stories, but now I’m getting to the point where I need some advice directed to me.
I got married in Aug 2009 after being together for 2 years (1 dating, 1 engaged). Things were pretty good the first year. We had a lot of fun together and the excitement of moving in together for the first time. In late 2010, W got a job which required her to be on the road for many days at a time. This is when things started to fall apart. We grew more distant from each other, and both being very independent people (we had no problem spending nights apart hanging out with our own friends), things got progressively worse. She loved the job a lot and was having a ton of fun being in warm climates in vacation settings. Around March 2011, she left that job for different opportunity that would have her at home all the time, but a way more demanding time schedule (out the door at 5am, home at 8pm). This is when things really started going down hill.
As the distance between us grew more and more, I could tell there was something going on, which lead me to start snooping. As I suspected, she had been having some sort of EA with a former coworker (from the first job). I brought it up and was devastated. She kind of played it off more as a ‘we were just friends’ but the talk was definitely inappropriate for ‘just friends’. We both decided it was good to go to MC. We really both did think that this would be a quick fix and we’d be on her way. Unfortunately, that was not the case. It just started drudging up all sorts of problems that we, but mainly she, didn’t realize we had. Ill explain some of those problems a bit later.
After about 6 sessions of us going to the MC and her leaving feeling like complete garbage, we basically quit. During this time I did a few stints of db-like-techniques before I even knew what db-ing was, but was basically doing it for her, and not me. When I didn’t get any reciprocation, I quit, and blamed her for not putting in any effort. I basically shut down at this point and just kept telling her if she didn’t want to work at this marriage, that she should hit the road. She complained that our house was too far from her friends and her job, and she seemed very ungrateful. The house was mine before the marriage, so I kept suggesting if the marriage wasn’t worth working on, and it was inconvenient, that she should move out. Unfortunately for her, her job paid very little and she didn’t really have the means to do so. Who knows if she would have or not.
So its about Sept 2011 where we’ve both kind of just given up. We are living in the same house, but like two ships passing in the night. She’d get home, give me a kiss and I’d say nothing. She’d leave in the mornings with a kiss and we’d say nothing. We went on a family vacation (my side) in mid Sept. I figured this was the final test. If we had nothing here, on vacation, then there’s just no hope. Sure enough, the 3 days were a true test of patience as I got zero from her. No affection, no love, no anything. I tried a few times to initiate stuff, but it was fruitless.
During the trip I told her I’d need to know pretty soon whether she was in or out of the marriage, and when we got home, I told her I needed to know by that Friday, which was 5 days away. I asked her if there was someone else taking her attention because I felt she was giving off the same vibes she was the first time that I was suspicious and uncovered the EA. She totally denied it.
And then comes Friday… I do a bit more snooping and in her email I see in her trash an email that she sent him with pictures of the two of them in sort of these ‘lovey-dovey’ poses. Clearly we had another EA, and possibly PA. As she knows this is decision day, I wait for her to get home and ask her if she made a decision and sure enough, she doesn’t know what she wants to do… which was all I heard throughout us working on things. I ask her about it and she completely denies it all. Keeps doing so until I explicitly tell her what I saw. Long story short, we have a small talk but I tell her I’m done, I’ll never trust her again, and she needs to move out tonight. And she goes to live with her parents.
She comes over a few times in the next couple days to grab some more of her stuff, and she, for the first time, seems shook up. I’m still so angry that I just am a stone cold guy and basically help her get her stuff and that’s it. A few weeks go by and I don’t talk to her nor hear from her. I’m way too angry to even start thinking about seeing her and even go to a L to talk about separation agreements. I’m pretty convinced at this point that it’s for sure over, and this is the way to go. At the end of the month (Oct) I find a note at my place that says “I love you”. I ask her to meet me at a coffee shop and just see what’s going on. We talk for several hours and she expresses that although she doesn’t know what she wants, she’s not ready to give up, and she doesn’t want a divorce. This was pretty encouraging. Although I kicked her out, I always wanted the marriage to work. Of course I take this as she wants for us to be getting back together, so I’m all excited. We start meeting up in public places and just talking but each time it seems more hopeless that we’re getting back together. She seems less sure of it happening each time, and I’m mortified.
We discuss going to a different MC and we finally get our ducks in a row (her job schedule doesn’t allow for much flexibility) and meet up with a new guy mid December. We both really like him and we spend 4 hours over two days getting our issues down on paper. He is very optimistic and says there’s nothing on that list that cant be worked on. W seems encouraged too, so here I am thinking… weee, we’re totally going to be together in no time. *Buzzer* Wrong! Not a lot changes. She’s still very uncertain, doesn’t even want to think about moving back in (in fact never wants to return to that specific house). I suggest moving to a different place closer to her work but still not good enough. Holiday starts, and I take her out for her birthday. We have a great time and no R talk whatsoever. Christmas and New Years come and go and we see each other a few times. I got her a Christmas present, but she didn’t get me anything which was pretty confusing, but whatever.
January is when I do everything counter productive to DB-ing. I beg/plead/pursue to the nth degree. I nag her into going to IC with our MC. She wanted to go, but just didn’t seem like it was a priority so I nag until she books the appointment. Shortly after hers, I go to see the same guy and do an IC for myself. He talked us both separately into going to a marriage conference he was holding in a nearby church that weekend. We go. It was pretty good, and if we weren’t in such a weird spot, it would have been awesome. On the drive home we talk about a lot of stuff, and then I drop her off at her car after we talk for another hour or so in the parking lot.
Prior to this marriage conference is when I started reading the stories on this forum full steam. After this, I decide I’m not going to pursue, beg, plead anymore and getting my DAL on. So that week I don’t text her at all, and only reply when she does. I sign up for cooking courses, I sign up for a bike race, and a few other things to better myself. I truly have the mindset now that I’m doing these things for me and if our marriage works as a byproduct, that would be awesome.
So I get a text from her to go out for breakfast on Saturday but I say I cant, because I have a cooking class. I leave it at that, no response. Sunday night I get a text asking if I wanted to do breakfast Tuesday morning. I say I’m not sure if I can because I just started a cleanse, but then I agree as I find out there are a few things I can eat at the restaurant. We meet up Tuesday (this Tuesday) and have a short breakfast. She only had a little time due to her work. Things went ok, but I had a lot of things on my mind, and I wasn’t really sure how to apply the DB-ing to this. After breakfast, she gave me a card as we parted, as well as a long hug.
The card was very nice. Basically said that she was so sorry for how she had treated me and abused my trust. She has finally started to see things clearly. I am such a great guy and my recent accomplishments are just making me even that much better. She’s very proud of me. Happy valentines day, love W.
So here I’m thinking, awesome. DB-ing pays off in a week. She’s noticed all my 180s already, (admittedly I told her about one or two in passing), and things are looking great. I text her 20 minutes later to thank her for the card and that it was thoughtful and was great to read those words. Said have a great day. Left it at that, and no response.
Then later in the evening I get a text saying, ‘if you didn’t want to go for breakfast, you could have told me. Should have just said no’. I was caught aback. I ask her what she means and she says I seemed really distracted and was just doing her a favor, and I’ve never been like that in the past. I try validate her feelings and say that I had a lot going on in my mind, and was stressed that I was going to be really late for work. I stated that just a week ago she still wasn’t sure if she wanted things to work out, and that she still talked to guy from EA2, just casually, because she didn’t know where we were headed. Anyway, that’s kind of where we’re at. I feel like I kind of went dark/dim and then when she invited me to breakfast, that I was still to stay like that. I wasn’t as fun as I could’ve been that’s for sure. But I had a lot on my mind. I told her that talking to the guy is a dealbreaker a week ago, so a lot was going through my mind. I thought, maybe I’m making a mistake even being here at breakfast. Should’ve stayed dark longer.
So ya, I said I’d state our general problems earlier: - I didn’t help with any household chores - She felt like we never had a best friend connection - Our M was pretty much a SSM from the start - Trust issues from EA1 and EA2 - She doesn’t feel I support her career - We don’t share the same dreams/goals - I feel her career is more important than our marriage, since day 1 - Loss of passion
Thanks for reading, I know its long winded, and borders on babbling, but its basically a summary of our marriage for the last year and a half.
P.S. I haven’t read the book, but ordered it over a week ago. Anxiously waiting…
Stay away from her until you can get yourself under control.
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So ya, I said I’d state our general problems earlier: - I didn’t help with any household chores - She felt like we never had a best friend connection - Our M was pretty much a SSM from the start - Trust issues from EA1 and EA2 - She doesn’t feel I support her career - We don’t share the same dreams/goals - I feel her career is more important than our marriage, since day 1 - Loss of passion
Is there truth to these? Have you owned your part?
Stay away from her until you can get yourself under control.
Is there truth to these? Have you owned your part?
Can/will/are you able to change?
Definite truth to these yes. I've owned them and am now in the processing of proving them. That was a huge issue for us is I would say I could fix this and worth on that, but she just wouldn't be convinced. Pretty much a common thing in these threads, on spouse wants to be convinced.
I grew up in a house were mom did the housework and dad provided. She did not grow up the same way, so obviously there was a difference in upbringing there but I've expressed that I would work on it. That is part of the reason I've started taking cooking lessons, so that I can help her out there. It's not like I'm a slob, I keep things tidy but not *clean*.
I have always supported her career, but when it started becoming her priority, which she'll admit to, it was hard to be completely on board when it was a major factor of what was pulling us apart. Especially when she met both guys in the EAs through work. However, I would never ask her or want her to quit on her career, and have expressed that many times.
As far not having that best friends connection , I think that had a lot to do with communication and both of our selfishness. When either of us had a problem, we shut down and spent time apart. We're both very independent already and would just become more so when problems arose. It was very common by the end to not do anything on weekends together and just hang out with our own friends. I'd invite her though to my things, but at the end I wasn't really invited to hers.
The other problems I will own, hence why I wrote them, however, I believe the rest are things we need to work on together and through better communication and working at being 'best friends', hopefully we can compromise on those issues.
I feel like we're very close to something good, but things are just going very slowly. I'm totally willing to change, and have already started making great strides. I'm finishing up my degree (finally), starting to cook, eating healthy, etc. Just need to keep going and become who I want to be, and hopefully its someone that she can't live without.
Since the moderation is taking forever, I figure I'd journal a bit:
Not a lot has happened on the R front. Texted W on Wed asking if she had time to chat, no response. Later I texted if she was around, she replied that she was busy at work, so not really. I asked when she'd be home, to which she said "not until late". I then told her to have a good night and left it at that. I know this was a mistake to even begin with, but I felt crappy about how Tuesday went. I feel like she put out her neck a bit (for the first time in a while) and I stepped on it. Anyway, didn't text her at all today, and plan to just leave things alone for a while... the weekend at the very least.
There's one thing I'd like some advice on from the community: I'm planning to rent out/sell my home move to a nearby but different city, where I'd try transfer within my company to a closer office to the new place. W still has a lot of stuff at my place (mainly clothes, beauty products, and other misc stuff) and I'm wondering how I should go about handling that with her? We'll also need to decide on what to do with some of our common stuff. I'm not sure if she'd want me taking all our stuff to my new home, but she's living with her parents right now and wouldn't have much use for it. I'd like to go about it with the angle of, "we need to deal with this stuff" without seeming like I'm ending whatever it is we have... unless that's exactly what I want her to think... kind of confused as to the direction I should take.
Thanks Cadet, I'll try post frequently. I've read the 5 love languages book already as advised by our MC. Very helpful as I'm quite sure my wife's LL is acts of service.. Too bad I was to clueless to figure that out sooner.
I guess I'll just keep plugging along here and hope for the best.
Well I've made it through the weekend without contact. It's been hard at times, but I've managed. Really miss having contact but trusting the process. Hopefully the book comes in the mail this week and I can find more pro-active things to be doing.
So W texted me today asking my If I filed her taxes because she's getting hassled by some other agency which depends on this return. I told her I had filed them 3-4 weeks ago and to hang tight. Sent her her return in electronic format in case she wanted to call them. She said thanks and I've left it at that.
I'm not sure being dark/dim is the best thing for us right now. If anyone has the chance could they give me some advice? I'd really love to talk to her but it feels weird almost just ignoring her completely like this. She wanted a best friend connection and I'm not sure this is showing her how I can be that for her...
Since the moderation is taking forever, I figure I'd journal a bit:
Not a lot has happened on the R front. Texted W on Wed asking if she had time to chat, no response. Later I texted if she was around, she replied that she was busy at work, so not really. I asked when she'd be home, to which she said "not until late". I then told her to have a good night and left it at that. I know this was a mistake to even begin with, but I felt crappy about how Tuesday went. I feel like she put out her neck a bit (for the first time in a while) and I stepped on it. Anyway, didn't text her at all today, and plan to just leave things alone for a while... the weekend at the very least.
There's one thing I'd like some advice on from the community: I'm planning to rent out/sell my home move to a nearby but different city, where I'd try transfer within my company to a closer office to the new place. W still has a lot of stuff at my place (mainly clothes, beauty products, and other misc stuff) and I'm wondering how I should go about handling that with her? We'll also need to decide on what to do with some of our common stuff. I'm not sure if she'd want me taking all our stuff to my new home, but she's living with her parents right now and wouldn't have much use for it. I'd like to go about it with the angle of, "we need to deal with this stuff" without seeming like I'm ending whatever it is we have... unless that's exactly what I want her to think... kind of confused as to the direction I should take.
Send her an email if/when your move is for sure and ask how she wants to handle getting her things.
I'm not sure being dark/dim is the best thing for us right now. If anyone has the chance could they give me some advice? I'd really love to talk to her but it feels weird almost just ignoring her completely like this. She wanted a best friend connection and I'm not sure this is showing her how I can be that for her...
I noticed you said you had ordered the DR book. Have you rad it yet? If so re-read the LRT section. Heck read it every night if you have to. Have you read Crimson's thread here? It might give you some encouragement.
I noticed you said you had ordered the DR book. Have you rad it yet? If so re-read the LRT section. Heck read it every night if you have to. Have you read Crimson's thread here? It might give you some encouragement.
Thanks for responding labug. I haven't received the book yet. Bought it used from amazon but shipping's taking forever. I've read Crimson's thread(s) from top to bottom and have it on my watched list. It's no doubt been an inspiration of will power and patience.
Am I really in LRT mode right now? Just last week my W gave me a card with some very sincere apology and other nice things, mainly stating that she's noticed many of my 180s. Sure, things got a bit sidetracked after that, but I'm not sure about it yet. I guess until I get the book and read it, I'll just continue staying dark and working on myself. Have another cooking class this weekend so that will be fun.
MWD advocates using LRT in extreme situations and classifies physical separation as extreme. LRT/NC allows you to work on yourself and get some emotional detachment. It also takes the pressure off your W. She has time to think about things without you there reminding her what she doesn't like about you.
It's good that W is noticing your 180s but the more you are together the more chance you have of turning your 180 into a 360 and ending up right back where you started.
Thanks labug for your support so far. I really appreciate it.
Got my copy of DR today (finally). Plan to read it cover to cover in the next night or two and get better equipped with what my plan will be.
What am I waiting to hear/see from my W before I switch out of LRT? I'm still worried that she really tried to make a big leap of faith giving me that card last week (in my original post) and I haven't really done anything with it.
Anyhow, as always, comments are welcome and encouraged.
So I read through the 7 steps of the book so far, and I agree with Labug, LRT is where I'm at right now. As hard as it can be, I trust that I need to continue doing this for at least a few more weeks. If it still doesn't work, I may have to consider something else.
Hi there, If you aren't talking to a DB coach, you should consider that. They are experts in guiding you when it is appropriate to use LRT or any of the other techniques that may be particular to your situation. Before you move or make any major changes, I suggest that a DB coach could help you go forward in a way that won't push her any further away, and actually bring her closer. Don't give up...there is hope here.
I trust that I need to continue doing this for at least a few more weeks. If it still doesn't work, I may have to consider something else.
Ben, patience is beyond a doubt the most challenging aspect of DBing. Check out all the sucess stories. Nearly every story has that common thread - patience! I am by no means a shinning example of practicing this virtue btw. If you really want to have shot at this, you may have to change "weeks" into "months"?
Grmpy is right, patience is a virture and most certainly a requirement... Just wanted to provide some words of encouragement my friend. You are in the right place. Live, breathe, and eat the 37 steps. I wish I had 6 months ago to now and I'm sure I would be in a much better place. The advice provided by the kind souls here is sound, follow the DB principles and hopefully good things will follow in your sitch.
Thanks everyone for reading. Helps to stay focused knowing people you've never met, and probably will never really know, are rooting for you and taking time out of their day to help.
Originally Posted By: labug
Quote:
need to continue doing this for at least a few more weeks. If it still doesn't work, I may have to consider something else.
You might need to rethink that, real changes take time to make and become a part or you. Get your mind off her for now and just work on you.
Just to clarify, I just mean staying dark. I never plan to give up on GALing and 180s. But in the book MWD says if something's not working, try something else. Maybe a few more weeks isn't long enough to know, but we'll see. I can re-evaluate after a few weeks and through some introspection and the help of you fine people, I can decide to stay the course or alter it a bit.
I emailed our MC on the weekend and updated him on my new direction with the DBing, LRT and all, and asked him what he thought. He agrees that this is a good strategy and no matter what happens, I will be better off for working on myself.
Turns out my MC knows MWD in person. He used to host a marriage show on TV and had MWD on the show to talk about Divorce Busting.
The MC also emailed both my Wife and me in the same email. We went to a marriage conference early February and we both agreed to come in after to talk about it with him. He's now asking if we were still up for it. Any advice on how I can respond? I'd like to go. I do need to talk to my wife about moving out (probably within the next month) and how we're going to arrange for our possessions to be dealt with. She still has a lot of stuff at my place as well as a lot of shared possessions that we haven't really talked about.
I haven't really talked to my wife for the last 2 weeks save for one text message which was strictly business. Should I email the MC back with or without her included in the message, and if she's included, what should I say?
Small update: Ended up emailing just the MC and asked whether it would be individual or joint counseling and stated that I'd be willing to go with W providing she expressed interest.
He copied her on his reply to me saying he was thinking joint counseling. W didn't respond for a couple of days but just got a reply from her to the MC with me copied saying "Of course I will go. I want to".
So, finally. A positive. The last few weeks have been hard, but even though it's just her agreeing to go to MC, it feels like a huge positive. It could still be a few more weeks 'til we align our schedules and get in there, but at least I can feel more confident in what I'm doing and stay the course.
Well, it's been a while since my last update... Hopefully I can get some advice here from you fine people.
Haven't heard anything new on the MC front. Not sure if she ever talked further with the MC to book something (her work sched is really tight so he asked her to give him some times that would work).
Last weekend she texted me to tell me about a new job she got. I was very supportive and we had a text convo about that. I told her I was very excited for her and how great it was, and that I was proud of her for being patient waiting for a door to open. This job should be way less demanding on her time, so hopefully things might start moving a bit quicker than they have in the last several months.
Then the next day I texted her to get together, which will happen tomorrow. I am planning to move sometime in the next month or two. I am going to rent my place out and need to figure out what to do with her/our stuff. The new place will be a lot smaller so even if she said I could have everything, it wouldn't fit. I'm still not exactly sure how to approach this. My goal is to somehow get her to deal with getting her stuff from my place but not making her feel like I'm kicking her out. At the same time, giving her the hint that the door is still open, but not seeming like I need her back.
Any advice on this? Should I bring up the future MC session at all? I was planning to leave it for another time unless she brings it up.
Went out for lunch and coffee with W yesterday. Overall it went pretty smoothly. We caught up over lunch about whats going on in her life, mainly her new job. The convo was upbeat and enjoyable.
We then walked to a coffee shop nearby, where I told her I was planning to move out in the next month or so. In a roundabout way I asked her what she would like to do with some of her shared belongings. She expressed that she wants all the stuff she picked out for us, mainly the furniture. Coffee tables, nightstands, bedframe, etc. Although I dont agree that she deserves it all I didn't say anything. Didn't feel like fighting about it. I can always buy new stuff.
She said she's jealous that I get to move downtown and wishes she could. She's been going for years trying to get her career going and all her friends that slacked off are now doing better than her. I tried to stay upbeat and encourage her.
At some point during coffee she seemed a little annoyed. She said that she feels like she deserves credit for 'molding' me into the man I'm now becoming, the man she always envisioned I'd be. Now I'm ready for my next girlfriend. I didn't say much, but said that maybe she could be my next girlfriend. She seemed to appreciate that comment but who knows.
As for the MC, I did mention it to her. She said she wasn't sure if she wanted to go. She feels that during the MC, everything seems fine but then after she leaves, it just goes back to the same old feelings for her. She still really doesn't know what she wants from our R. She doesnt want to quit but doesn't want to move forward either. Her words.
Overall, it went pretty positively. I got a bit of R info from her without probing her too far. There were many times I bit my tongue when I wanted to ask her explicit questions like "Do you still love me?" or "Could you ever see us working this out?"
Anyway, back to GALing, 180s, etc. I like the person I'm becoming, and I don't want to lose momentum. Her new job starts in a week or two, and she'll have plenty more time to think about her life and what may, or may not, be missing. I'm getting to the point where I wish she could make a decision either way... this limboland I live in gets frustrating.
So the W and I are going to MC tomorrow morning. The last two days I've been doing a lot of thinking, and although I don't know how what direction I want to take, I can't shake the feeling that I really just want a decision to be made one way or another.
A big part of me just wants to start along the process of getting a separation agreement going. We still have another 6 months until we can get a D, but I feel like I just want to move on. Every month that goes by seems less 'productive' than the last.
It's been a long time since I've felt loved by my W, well before our separation, and I'm just flat out tired. I feel like I've made huge strides to become a better person and she's stuck where she is. I haven't seen any signs of her changing, and now I'm just feeling like she might never be the wife I need.
Obviously, I'm conflicted about all of this. If she went into tomorrow with the game plan of reconciliation, I'd want to explore that first. I'm hoping for it, but surely not expecting it. I just want to move forward with my life. I deserve to be happy, and every other aspect of my life I am. I'm just trying to figure out if moving forward without her is 'strategy' or me actually getting on with my life... I hope it's the latter.
Praying that tomorrow is the start of something new... a new direction... a positive direction...
You mentioned that the sex/passion had declined almost from the day after the wedding. Were you disinterested or the LD, or was she?
Another point was her wanting to feel the "friend" connection. I read a lot of threads that talk about being best friends with their S. I don't really agree with that being what a couple should try to have in a MR. A lot of people could be her best friend(s), but only one person can be her H. That position is completely separated from being a friend. It's so much more than that. I think a lot of couples settle for less by thinking they should be best buddies. Sooner or later, one of them usually go looking for sexual fulfillment from somebody other than the spouse.
Have you ever watched that reality show where the match maker "Patti" has millionaires for clients? She finds women for these men to date, hoping to find them a wife. After the date she calls them to see how they felt about the girl. Whenever the man uses the word "friend", Patti immediately uses very plain English and tells them that they don't want to f--- their friends. Pretty much puts things in perspective. I believe she's right when she tells a man that the penis chooses. A woman can be everything a man could possibly want, but if his penis doesn't agree, then he should never be anything but her friend.
Why did your W have two EA's? I don't think she was looking for friendship with these men.
She was definitely LD. Like most young men, I was raring to go at all times. She probably initiated sex 2-3 times... the entire relationship, one of the times being after she totally effed up and I was pissed at her. "I'm sorry" sex I guess we can call it. It's probably important to note that we didn't have sex before marriage.
In Feb she gave me some 'reasons' she didn't want to have sex. Some included my lack of passion for health. I never exercised, and didn't eat well. I'm 6'2" 165lbs so by any standard, underweight. Sure, I was growing a small belly but I'm pretty sure it was bigger before we were married. She also attributed it to our connection issues. I can answer specific questions about this, but suffice to say, we didn't communicate that well. She swept everything under the rug. I found out about 90% of our real issues after we separated. We never fought about much. I just thought I was being supportive.
I agree with what your saying about not needing to be "friends". One of the things she told me about EA2 is that she talked to him about things that we never talked about. Religion, beliefs, etc. She said they cried on each other's shoulders. Maybe that's what she means by not having a 'best friend' connection. The only issue I have with that is that I have a LOT of close friends. In all honesty, I have about 8 friends that know everything about me, and I know everything about them. I'm not some closed book that has problem discussing feelings and stuff. I just feel like I had no idea what was going on in her head (and still don't) because she never let on to anything.
As I think I've mentioned, she also feared we just wanted different things from life. Her's is/was her career, traveling the world, "experiencing life". Mine was to have a nice home and a happy family. Sure, she wanted that eventually, but she thinks that's all I want. While partially true, I think that's what may have led her to the other guys. They have the same passions as her, and gave her all the attention in the world. EA1 was pretty much nothing, but I still have my doubts about EA2. I'm feeling like I don't know the whole story, and still suspect some form of PA. Not a full blown PA, but at least something. She still talks to the guy and it bugs the hell out of me. We haven't talked about it for a couple months now though.
Hard to take these things she says and determine which ones she truly believes, and which ones she's just telling herself to make this easier. I'm trying to validate both, but its confusing. My friend's wives that know her well thinks shes a bit off the mark on some of the stuff. They know me very well too, and have very good things to say about me, how I've handled the situation, and how impressed they are with my GALing.
At any rate, I'm still lost. I hope tomorrow lead somewhere other than further into limbo land.
Well today's session went better than expected. I went in feeling as close to hopeless as it gets. I was truly prepared to official go our separate ways.
We each spoke with the MC for 15 minutes each so he could ask us where each of us were at, and after he had us in together. Basically, we have both agreed to move forward together. We came up with a reset plan with the MC, which consists of some concrete tasks we have to do each week. This includes 1 phone call a week initiated by each of us, each of us initiating a 'date' per week, as well as a daily message of encouragement via text, email, etc. We also discussed some other things relating to moving out to a new place, and some vague timelines.
All in all, very positive. I'm cautiously optimistic. W is scared but I think she's positive about it too. Trying not to get into cartwheel mode just yet, but I'm extremely happy, especially considering the PMA I had over the last few days.
There's still a ton of work to do, but I hope today is the day where things really turned around for me, and for us. Wish me luck!
EA1 was pretty much nothing, but I still have my doubts about EA2. I'm feeling like I don't know the whole story, and still suspect some form of PA. Not a full blown PA, but at least something. She still talks to the guy and it bugs the hell out of me. We haven't talked about it for a couple months now though.
Was this A discussed in the MC session?
If she still has contact with OM, I don't think she's going to be very receptive to the acts of pursuit the C suggested. But if she breaks all contact with OM, then the MR stands a better chance.
She clearly is seeking something from these EA's that she doesn't have with you.
Yes, we've discussed the A a fair bit in our joint sessions in the past. We didn't in the most recent session. I think the extent of her current contact with OM is just 'keeping in touch', and who knows how often that is. I brought it up with the counselor in our 1 on 1. I mentioned how I'm really going to need a NC letter of some sort, soon. He told me to trust him to handle that with her, so that's what I'm doing.
So far, we're just a few days into our reset plan, and things are 100x better. We are communicating like a normal couple again, mainly over texts. Shes not only initiating, but responding to my messages in a positive and upbeat way. She seems genuinely excited to communicate.
I suggested we go to a cooking class on Thursday night as part of my date initiation. Wont know til Wed if it will work around her new job training, but she said it would be a great idea.
Not trying to get to ahead of myself here, but so far so good. Just need to stick to the plan and not expect more than what we both said we'd do.
I'm glad things are working out for you!!! Yes, don't expect too much because then your heart will be broken again. I wish you the very best!
So you were separated for 6 months? Was she living somewhere else? How was your communication throughout the 6 months?? I am just wondering for my own situation...I feel lost and hopeless
Yes, 6 months separated (and counting). She was living with her parents during this time. The first 3-4 weeks we didn't really communicate much. Then we met up for coffee once and it seemed like things were going to turn around. We were texting a lot more, but still not much (every other day). Things slowly got less and less and we would go weeks without even a peep. It was hard. I felt like during this time, I just wasn't getting the response I was expecting and would shut down.
Then in Feb after a marriage semenar, I kind of went dark for a few weeks which was very hard as well, but something I felt I really had to do. This is when I really focused on GALing. So important to do so.
That kind of brings us to now, where we're in 'reset' mode. Things are back on track. Not the exact track I want, but a track I'm happy to be on.
Hang in there. Your situation could turn around tomorrow, but more likely months from now. And by months I mean anywhere from 1-6 (or more). Take it day by day, get a life, and do the best you can at focusing on your self, and what you can control. I know its tough, but it does get easier.
I am almost confident that if I don't initiate contact with him, then he won't initiate contact with me, so it does hurt me because he's not the man that I know right now. I just don't understand how any person can just abandon their spouse when no 'huge' significant problems existed.
I am almost confident that if I don't initiate contact with him, then he won't initiate contact with me, so it does hurt me because he's not the man that I know right now. I just don't understand how any person can just abandon their spouse when no 'huge' significant problems existed.
Thanks for the encouraging words!
She went for an individual session with him, and he asked her if she'd be interested in it. She agreed, with reluctance, but agreed nonetheless.
The thing about your situation about going dark. Is it working right now with what you're doing? No, it doesn't seem like it is. Stop doing what doesn't work. Try going dark. Commit to it for at least a few weeks. Work on yourself. That's your number one priority. Let your H figure it out for himself. You want him to come back to you because he wants to come back to you, not because he feels like he's being pressured or guilted into doing so.
All of us LBSs don't understand why they are doing what they are doing. Bottom line is they're doing it, and there's nothing we can do about it.
I mentioned how I'm really going to need a NC letter of some sort, soon. He told me to trust him to handle that with her, so that's what I'm doing.
He didn't think he should share with you his plan in how he would "handle that with her"?
I asked him briefly right before my 15 minutes with just us were over, so we didn't get into it further. I'm actually not too concerned about it for now. I'd rather find out in a week or two that she doesn't talk to the guy anymore, and because it was a decision she made for herself. If that's not the case, and things are still progressing, and I feel like I need to bring it up, I'll work on that with the MC. I trust his guidance.
Every day is a better day than the last. If and when we hit some snags and seem to be backsliding over a number of days, we can see what course of action to take then. Until then, I'm happy to be where I am. To borrow the analogy from these boards, the squirrel is eating from my hand. I'm just gonna keep my hand still and enjoy it, and not scare it away.
So it's been a little under 2 weeks since the W and I agreed to 'reset' and start working on R.
For the most part, it's been a much better couple of weeks. We have had constant daily communication, mainly over TM, and have had a couple short phone calls, both initiated by me.
We're definitely behind though in our face-to-face meetings. We were both supposed to initiate a 2-3 hour 'meeting' and so far we've only done 2. In fairness, she was training for a new job which included a flight-test so she didn't have much time. We'll see if anything happens in the last bit of this week.
As I kind of expected, I may have raced a bit too far in front of her. Last night over TM, I asked her how the rest of her week was going. She said she was busy the next few days, but didn't mention Sat. I asked if she wanted to get together Sat and she said 'Perhaps'. I asked her 'What does perhaps mean? :P' and she said 'It means perhaps'.
Not sure if this was right or not, but I decided I wanted to find out if she was feeling like I was pushing much. After an hour went by, and a few other messages with light banter went back and forth, I stuck my neck out a bit: ----------------------------------------- Me: Can I ask you something? Am I pushing this too much? As in, moving to fast... expecting things too soon?
Her: Its just unfamiliar. We've gone so long without being a part of eachothers lives. Now trying to reintroduce it just feels unnatural at times.
Me: I understand. I'll ease it back. I dont want to push you out of your comfort zone. I get that this can be weird and I dont want to make it worse. I got a little over excited with all your attention I guess
Her: Ahhh I get it. I've just become so accustomed to a certain lifestyle and it's sometimes hard to break from that. I've been used to doing what I want, with who I want, whenever I want, and not having someone to answer to.
Me: I totally get it. I really do.
Her: Anyways, bedtime for me. Good night
Me: Ill just stick with our plan we talked about with MC and not worry about the rest. Have a good sleep. Talk to you tomorrow. -----------------------------------------
I feel a bit like a dog being smacked on the nose by a rolled up newspaper. I get where shes coming from, I kind of expected I would make this mistake, but it still sukks.
On the positive side, she was very honest with me about her feelings which I don't feel she would've done a few months ago. Before it would be 'I dont know how I feel' or just 'I dont know'. Trying to focus on the silver lining.
Texted her this morning as part of our reset plan to say good morning and to wish her a good day. She responded positively and reciprocated with a positive note.
I think I need to dial it back and let her take the lead a little more.
Any suggestions? I feel like all I know is LRT and this transition is not so black and white. I believe we're set for another mc session next thursday. I plan to talk with the C about OM and laying all of it on the table as well. It still weighs on my mind, especially when the contact between us wanes.
I guess all I should be doing is what we both agreed upon with MC. I already find she's doing a pretty poor job at keeping up her end of the bargain...
In the transition, yeah you need to be real careful not to smother, pressure, push, etc. She's still a squirrel ready to jump ship. It was almost comedy with my W how much so. I remember the second time we hung out after she had decided to come back and try again, and I was just going off about how much I loved her and all these things we were going to do together, etc.
The next morning she called and left this message about how she just didn't know if she could do this, it all felt so strange, she couldn't force feelings that weren't there (WAS sort of script again).
I had faith in the process (and my past experience) and didn't call, text or respond to her at all. After a few days, she came back seeking me out again. I actually kept pushing her away until she asked me to setup MC, she asked me for date time, etc.
If she seems ambivalent about contact/dating, then you be more (or at least) equally so. When she takes a step towards you, reciprocate IN KIND (but not more so). It's a gradual process, but will feel more natural and if you have patience and trust in it, you will reach the other side soon enough.
You have some structure built in to help you (the scheduled dating, etc.), but even on the dates don't go for the romantic/seductive vibe. Aim for NEW, fun things or activities. New restaurants, bars or activities you may have discovered during your GAL time so you can also share some of the new and improved you with your W. What sorts of things did you guys do as activities when you were first falling in love?
Re: the OM, I suggest you ONLY raise that with your W in the safety of your C office. They do have experience with the appropriate timing of this and in doing it in a relatively non-confrontational/accusatory way that supports the marriage/relationship and can be more constructive. It really comes down to you feeling unsafe with this OM in the picture in whatever form and that is something that needs to be addressed openly and concretely.
I don't feel like I was smothering her too much but obviously all the attention I was giving her seemed too much for her. Other than hugging upon going our separate ways, I havent been affectionate nor dropped any ILYs or talked about the future. Didn't even mention the possibility of us moving in to a new place, which our MC wanted us to talk about.
I gotta say, it's really starting to bug me. She gave me a card around Valentines day saying how she knows how her selfishness drove a wedge in our marriage, and now, after agreeing to this reset plan, it seems nothing has changed. It just really makes me wonder if she's changed at all... Maybe it's common that the WAS seems a bit behind in changing because they don't even realize the things that need changing, I dunno.
I honestly feel like going totally dark again just due to pure frustration but then I'm also going against the plan that we agreed on and it would probably do more harm than good. Or just send her a message saying if shes not going to put the effort in then I'm out. I wont act on these options, but they are on the forefront of my mind no doubt.
Part of me thinks she agreed to this whole reset just because she felt like I was moving on. It wasn't that she wanted to really start working on things, but just didn't want me to move on. Drag me into another few months of limbo.
Okay, I'm done venting. Time to go enjoy the beautiful weather. Already played hockey this morning, time to get on the bike and knock out some kilometers.
Well not really an update considering not a lot has changed in the last few days. Our contact has gone down to exchanging texts in the morning. I'm getting increasingly frustrated. The more I think about it the more angry it makes me.
The thing that continues to swirl in my head is that I'm worried she just isn't the girl I though she was. The girl I married. She seems so far away from being someone who can put a marriage first. I know it's been just a few weeks since she committed to our marital reset, but now I'm wondering if she really wanted to, and not just did it because she felt pressure. It's been about 16-17 days now and she's yet to hold up her end. Not only that, she seems to be avoiding my requests to hang out.
I'm so tired of this. Sick of the same old story. I have a phone meeting with the MC tomorrow morning so hopefully he can give me some advice. I also need to talk to him about how to deal with OM (not sure if hes still around but i need to know and deal with it regardless). Maybe we need to adjust our plan to something she feels comfortable with, or just scrap it entirely and go our separate ways....
Any advice? I know people will preach patience but I'm just so short on it. My tank feels dry
I completely understand your frustration. I'm going to talk to lawyers tomorrow about filing for divorce because I was sick of being pushed to the side for the past 8 weeks and over the past 4 months my h has changed into opposite off what I married. He too had ow so that made it extremely had for me and I don't know if I could ever get over that.
I am also going to preach patience because maybe if I had not overreacted to some things our stitch dcouls be different. However at least your w said she wanted to work on things. My h never made mention of it and stol doesn't even as hes looking for his own place and quit deed the house to me.
My db coach did tell me that if my h ever made the attempt to work on is that they will be chameleon like...ready one minute and then pulling back the next. Because they are afraid of their own feelings.
Going to MC later tonight. Not too sure what will come out of it, but I emailed MC that I want to deal with issue of OM, and that its a boundary of mine, and if she's not willing to deal with it (ie: NC letter), then I'm simply not interested in pursuing this possible R any further. I'm aware of the possibility that if she still is in contact with OM, that she may not be willing to break contact. I'm prepared for that possibility.
Other than that, I'm just going to go with the flow. I need to find a balance between being patient, and putting myself in situations I don't want to be in. This S is no longer working for me. If she's not going to make the commitment to work on M, and ACTUALLY follow through with the commitment, then I'm going to have to get on with my life. That I'm also prepared to do.
I will do this in as 'DB' as possible. I will validate her feelings, and only put my foot down when my boundaries are crossed, other than that I'm willing to see what happens.
Still waiting on MCs reply to my email... might update before MC with his reply, and a possible change in some of my 'gameplan'.
Went to MC last night. Not really sure how it went, but I suppose as far as saying what I needed to say, it was good.
General theme is that she doesn't know if we can ever have the connection needed for a healthy marriage, and I don't think I can continue on without OM being completely gone from the picture.
Because in W's eyes, we never once had the connection she feels she needs in a marriage, she's having a very hard time with our reset plan. She felt like it was forced, and our communication was very surface-level. MC tried to hammer home with her that its of course going to seem like that at first. We've had about at year of distance between us, and if someone told him to get in shape for a marathon, he couldn't do it in 3 weeks, it would take several months of hard work. He has no doubt in his mind that we can make the connection W expresses she needs. I believe it too, but don't really know what I can say to 'convince' her of that, so I said nothing.
As far as OM is concerned, she still does talk to him from time to time. She says its more just keeping in touch, and that he's a part of her brothers extended circle of friends, and they're all in the same industry so she's bound to run into him anyway. I think there's more to it than that. I told her I feel disrespected that she can't cut ties with him and that it's going to be hard for me to want to continue on knowing he's in the picture. She understands, but didn't really say what she would do about it. I never gave any kind of 'him or me' ultimatum, but as of now, our reset plan is on hold.
I'm actually not sure what will come of this. We didn't leave MC with any kind of game plan. MC said he'd email us both with some things and we can go from there.
Upon parting ways, we had a long hug. I told her I'm sorry if I was too hard on her in the session. I'm just very frustrated that we're still in this situation and that I still do love her a lot, which is why I'm so conflicted. She didn't really say anything, but texted me this morning apologizing for making me feel the way I feel, and she doesn't know why this is so hard (to figure out, to move forward). Said she should've told me last night, but didn't know what to say.
I responded saying thanks and just saying I know this is confusing for both of us. Have a good day and good weekend.
So yeah, not sure if this is the beginning of the end, if its the start of another stage of limbo, or if it's the start of something good. I really have no idea.
Just going to take the weekend to enjoy time with friends and reflect on what I really want...
Standing up for your boundaries is always the right thing to do. So you did the right thing in saying, "I'm not OK with this OM situation." If she can't abide something centrally important to you, then you know anyway where you stand with her (right now).
My W, even at our first MC sessions (which came after SHE said she wanted our R back and after I almost walked away again because of her talking about not being sure about her feelings) said that she was unsure if she could ever regain feelings for me, if she even wanted to try, if we can ever really feel connected again, if she even loved me anymore or could ever love me like she did before or needed to. She said all those things. And how unnatural and forced our first date felt.
(I said something like, WTF, why are we even here then, I didn't come here for more of this, and the therapist had to settle me down). My point is that it's ok if that is where she is now. Don't push her for more. What our MC did (and what I should have done) was simply to validate her.
"Yeah, you don't feel like we can ever have the connection you want for a healthy marriage. It feels like to you like it just won't ever happen or be there. That you'll never really feel connected to me the way that you want to. And you wished you felt differently, right? I get that, W. That must suck to feel that way. And for things to feel so awkward, forced, and unnatural now, especially since we've been apart awhile."
(period) you don't try to fix it or convince her of anything.
Originally Posted By: ben11
Because in W's eyes, we never once had the connection she feels she needs in a marriage, she's having a very hard time with our reset plan.
Yeah, she is still partly in the WAS mindset, not quite defogged. Might be partly cause of the continuing contacts with OM. Partly because of the past and present distance between you. Don't argue her out of any of this. Just listen, and occasionally validate, and GAL.
Originally Posted By: ben11
She felt like it was forced, and our communication was very surface-level. MC tried to hammer home with her that its of course going to seem like that at first. We've had about at year of distance between us, and if someone told him to get in shape for a marathon, he couldn't do it in 3 weeks, it would take several months of hard work. He has no doubt in his mind that we can make the connection W expresses she needs. I believe it too, but don't really know what I can say to 'convince' her of that, so I said nothing.
Don't try to convince. Even your MC should be careful about trying to convince her of anything. (he is only in a position to do so if she already trusts him in some way). Just validate and keep GALing, doing your own thing. The steps have to come from her. Anything forced on her (or too structured) can backfire.
Originally Posted By: ben11
I told her I feel disrespected that she can't cut ties with him and that it's going to be hard for me to want to continue on knowing he's in the picture.
You can be even more vulnerable and say that you do not feel "safe" being in a relationship with her (or anyone else) that keeps having contact with someone that intruded on your R. Sometimes, disrespected can come across as too authoritative or controlling and can push people away. "Safe/unsafe" tends to pull people closer.
Originally Posted By: ben11
I'm just very frustrated that we're still in this situation and that I still do love her a lot, which is why I'm so conflicted.
Don't volunteer the love statements (yet). They are still pressuring/smothering to her if she is not feeling the same (yet). It's fine to say that you also are frustrated and conflicted about the situation, because you do still have feelings for her and would like to feel more connected to her, but that you also have a life to live. That's probably about where she is with you, recognizing that she has feelings for you and wishing she felt more connected with you.
Originally Posted By: ben11
I responded saying thanks and just saying I know this is confusing for both of us. Have a good day and good weekend.
Yep, spot on. Then you GAL (til she contacts you again).
Thanks for stopping but Busto. I really appreciate your insight. As crappy as my situation is, I'm glad to know I'm handling it in a way that at least gives me a chance for R.
I will definitely try remember to sub 'unsafe' with 'disrespected' if/when we discuss this again. I know she knows how I feel about it. I guess she just needs to decide if our chances of ever having that connection is worth throwing away whatever she currently has, or wants with OM.
Quote:
(I said something like, WTF, why are we even here then, I didn't come here for more of this, and the therapist had to settle me down).
I did something pretty much to this extent last night too. I asked her if our connection is so bad and it was obviously good with OM, why isn't she with him now. I think she kinda shrugged and MC said "WHOA. Lets have a do-over on that one". I don't regret it. I even told her that parts of me wishes she just went ahead to find out what she had with OM if. I'm used to the pain, whats a bit more. MC wasn't too fond of my approach there.
Call it losing control of my emotions, call it whatever you will. I don't regret it. I am actually kind of appalled that she's even in MC, with this guy still in the picture, when she knows how I feel about it. I asked her to leave the night I found proof of them. Why would I not care now?
I'm gonna let it sit here over the weekend, but I certainly need to figure some stuff out. With me planning to move at the end of May, there will be a lot of things we'll need to sort out. We discussed the possibility of her helping me find a place, as well as how we'd divide our stuff if not. Either way, this is going to come soon, so I need to start preparing for that. If you, or anyone else has some suggestions, please fire away.
My H and I were going through DB counseling while he was still talking to the OW, also. He even had a separate phone he was using to contact her, so that I wouldn't see it on the phone bill...real LOW! He lied through counseling and that hurt me the most.
He, now, has his own place and I've decided to go dark with him...meaning no contact and living my life without him, which feels so unnatural but that's what my DB coach said to do. I've tried this before...it only lasted a week each time, because I always found out more about his OW and confronted him about it. Maybe that was a mistake and a 180 for that would have been not to confront him, but sometimes I just can't help myself.
We also separated everything...savings, checking, auto insurance, and are even looking into refinancing our cars. I'm not going to do that unless we do sign D papers...that can come later. I'm not even sure I want him back to work on things, because he did have a EA/PA, which could still be ongoing, but I want to make sure I truly tried everything!!! I just don't understand how WAS just walk away from their lives they've created with the one person they were NEVER supposed to hurt!
Thanks HAP. My head is fully up. I don't know if I'm just starting to detach, or if I'm just numb to it all now, but either way, it's not haunting me.
The weekend was good. Spent time with friends. On Sat, I biked over to a friend's kid's 2nd birthday, 15km each way or so. Then drove out to another friend's twins's 2nd birthday 30min away (took car this time ;)). After that, I spent time with different friends and watched some playoff hockey. So good right now. Now if only my Canucks could win a damn game, 4 actually, then I'd be in better spirits.
My attitude about the situation hasn't really changed much. I'm starting to go over in my head how I want to approach the situation, but I'm fairly certain I want to get a separation agreement agreed upon so that I can truly start moving on with my life. With my upcoming move looming over my head, I just would love to move to a new place with a fresh start. Going to spend another week or so and ponder this, but right now, it's really what I'm leaning towards. I'm tired of waiting for what seems to be a miracle. If I can go about this with keeping the road home smooth and paved, then I think that's my best course of action.
Haven't spoke since Friday morning. Checked the mail today and saw she had some stuff from tax agency in the mail. Not sure if I should tell her that something came in. Could be important, but I don't really feel like coming outta the dark yet. It's kind of nice
I'm thinking it's time to work out a separation agreement with my W. I'm not interesting in perusing a R and just want to move on with my life.
I was thinking of writing her an email which basically I would tell her that I'm sorry about my part in the breakdown of the marriage, validate her reluctance to wanting to try work out our M, and ask if she would help me move on by working on a separation agreement with me.
It's quite plain for me to see that she doesn't feel like we have ever had a connection strong enough for her, and that she's not going to give up OM to figure out what kind of connection we could create.
Clearly, that's out of my control. I can only control what I do, and what makes me happy. And this situation, this separation, has run its course. I'm ready to move on as it stands. I'm ready to be happy in this part of my life too. I feel like I just need to get some closure. I know it will be tough, it will be very sad, and I'll probably second guess it a lot, but I feel this is the only thing left to do.
Please, any feedback would be great. If you totally disagree, please let me know. Maybe I'm not thinking this through well enough...
Emailed the MC today. He's supporting my decision to move on. Coming from someone passionate about saving marriages, and someone who actually knows my W's side of the story, I am quite sure this is the direction I need to take.
Has anyone asked for a SA? I'm trying to figure out a way to do this as 'smoothly' as possible.
Again, any advice/feedback would be greatly appreciated...
Emailed the MC today. He's supporting my decision to move on. Coming from someone passionate about saving marriages, and someone who actually knows my W's side of the story, I am quite sure this is the direction I need to take.
Has anyone asked for a SA? I'm trying to figure out a way to do this as 'smoothly' as possible.
Again, any advice/feedback would be greatly appreciated...
Ben,
I read your whole thread...I have some comments and questions. I'll start with the questions. And I apologize for the length of this but I am including someone else's letter to her h, b/c I think it MIGHT represent how your w sees things and therefore might point you in a slightly different direction, or a major different one.
OKAY--
What is the goal of a separation agreement in your situation? I don't know your state so I don't know what purpose it serves there. For instance, Does one of you still need health insurance?
If you are so sure this M is over, why not divorce her? (Not suggesting it, but wondering why you'd bother with a SA).
Also, you wrote A LOT about how SHE would not change or work on the marriage although there was a lot of distance (geographically and then maritally) that led to problems. I am sure there were others b/c when you were together, somehow there was less intimacy and that cannot be all on her end.
From what I read in your thread, you didn't change much either. You use the word "test" a few times and I think "testing" our spouses is a bad idea. You were testing her and giving out ultimatums,
but you seemed to forget that DBing is about working on YOU and then still working on you and THEN seeing if it helps the marriage. That's the "monitor for results" part.
I didn't see any 180s from you...are there some I missed? I mean it's easy to blame her, which you clearly do.
But where is the introspection and inner growth on your end?
What do you mean when you say you "tried" in the m?
I get the feeling you mean a few gestures, and not filing for divorce....
and when the were not reciprocated quickly enough, (or trusted by her as being real) then you withdrew, which proved her distrust was legitimate.
Also suggests your "changes" were tactics to get her back fast, but not real or genuine change in you or your approach...and certainly not long lasting.
Did you ever try to really address why your w would feel so lonely that she'd seek out OM, twice? How did YOU behave differently after you discovered the first EA?
Did you improve in your treatment and attentiveness, or were you just angry at her? What I got from your thread was mainly the latter.
My gut says she does love you but simply feels so neglected that when OM paid attention to her, she gobbled it up. Then you found out about it, and instead of trying to figure out how YOU could better meet her needs -and SHE could regain your trust,
you got angry, continued to "test" her, and pretty much stayed that way. (I understand the anger and I am NOT defending the affairs. But I am wondering what YOU learned about YOU, from all this.
And how or why you don't seem to feel genuinely responsible for any of it.
** If I'm way off on this, please let me know and send me to the part where you say differently.***
While I used to understand the "take it or leave it" approach when there's an affair, I only get it IF there is no chance of a reconciliation.
It doesn't work that often if a woman feels unloved inside her marriage.
You both grew apart and neither of you did anything to change it. Even when danger signs appeared and she had her first EA,
all I got from your thread was how you wanted HER to get fixed at MC. Not how you'd spend the precious time you did have together, better...
IMO, like most WAWs, your w will not want to reconcile -UNLESS-
she believes marriage to you now, & "from this day forward",
could be different/better.
So how have YOU shown her that it could be?
What is different in YOU or how you interact with her, that indicates any possible improvement?
If she thinks you'll hold the A over her head like the sword of Damacles
or throw it in her face every time you are upset, she won't come home. (Who would?)
So she may not feel like it's worth even trying...esp if the MC is re-hashing the past or just about how SHE has to do "x" and "y".
Is it possible that
If she sees no change in you, she may Prefer to take her chances w/OM b/c she knows with you she's getting too little attention and too much anger?
have you done any forgiveness work? Not b/c she "deserves" it, but b/c the anger you feel is clearly influencing your choices, and it hurts You.
You have not been at this for long, in my book. Your expectations of a rapid solution were not realistic b/c it takes a lot for a woman to feel emotionally disconnected from her own h, and then connected to another man.
**(At the end of this post, I will attach a letter from a WAW to her h, b/c her h expected her to return after he made some changes...
although I don't believe you're in his situation b/c I don't know of any radical changes on your end-
I think the letter has value b/c it may shed light on your w's perspective on things.)**
In any event, the separation agreement means different things in different states. In some places it ends up being the same thing as the divorce agreement as it's simply ratified more or less when the time requirements for divorce are met.
In other states it's not a legally enforceable document. I'm a L but don't know your state and cannot advise here anyhow. But I simply don't know what impact it would have
and or, your purpose in filing it. Is it a last ditch attempt to wake her up?
IF SO, know that it might not. But IF she does look your way or continue in counselling of some sort
what do you think YOU could do differently? It's important you look within b/c the real journey in life is an inward one.
Do you get that^^?
You don't want to be in the same place in your next r, and if you and your w do reconcile, you'll have to structure your marriage a new way with tools you don't have right now.
Any chance you could attend Retrovaille? It's a marriage retreat weekend for marriages in crisis, and it has worked wonders on many, including mine.
Good luck, and here's the post I thought might shed some light on your w's views...fwiw. FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM…. When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M.
I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.
When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality. And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell. _________________________ Me: 32, H: 32
Thanks for the response 25. I'm working a response now. A bit tough to respond logistically so that I'm answering all your questions but I'm working on it...
I'll respond in chunks to keep it somewhat coherent...
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
What is the goal of a separation agreement in your situation? I don't know your state so I don't know what purpose it serves there. For instance, Does one of you still need health insurance?
If you are so sure this M is over, why not divorce her? (Not suggesting it, but wondering why you'd bother with a SA).
In our province (Canada) you need to wait 1 year. It's something that is held up in court when the year is over.
I'm not using it as a tactic. I just want to officially figure out how we're dividing our shared possessions so that I can move homes knowing what's mine, and what I need to replace. I believe there are clauses in the SAs that if you get back together, that its nullified. So its not like a final nail in the coffin, I'm just trying to protect what I've worked hard for at this point.
Also, you wrote A LOT about how SHE would not change or work on the marriage although there was a lot of distance (geographically and then maritally) that led to problems. I am sure there were others b/c when you were together, somehow there was less intimacy and that cannot be all on her end.
From what I read in your thread, you didn't change much either. You use the word "test" a few times and I think "testing" our spouses is a bad idea. You were testing her and giving out ultimatums,
but you seemed to forget that
DBing is about working on YOU and then still working on you and THEN seeing if it helps the marriage. That's the "monitor for results" part.
I didn't see any 180s from you...are there some I missed? I mean it's easy to blame her, which you clearly do.
But where is the introspection and inner growth on your end?
What do you mean when you say you "tried" in the m?
I get the feeling you mean a few gestures, and not filing for divorce....
and when the were not reciprocated quickly enough, (or trusted by her as being real) then you withdrew, which proved her distrust was legitimate.
Also suggests your "changes" were tactics to get her back fast, but not real or genuine change in you or your approach...and certainly not long lasting.
Did you ever try to really address why your w would feel so lonely that she'd seek out OM, twice? How did YOU behave differently after you discovered the first EA?
Did you improve in your treatment and attentiveness, or were you just angry at her? What I got from your thread was mainly the latter.
After EA1, to be honest, I didn't do a lot of things different. I mean, sure, I tried this and that for a week or two, but when I didn't get what I wanted (sex) I said **** it. It's her problem.
I did try spending more time with her, but she was really avoiding me. By the end, she was going to functions that I would normally go to that I was no longer invited to. Not only did she not ask me, I was specifically said I shouldn't go.
I suggested going away for a weekend here or there, but was either due to her job or she didn't know how she felt that she wasn't into going.
We did also go to MC during this time, but as stated earlier in my story it didn't go well.
In short, I did a horrible job of showing her the man I know I can be. I was angry, was in a fog, and even at some times thought maybe 'we were fine' and didn't have a problem. After all, I didn't find out about a lot of our real issues until OM2. Was that my fault? Maybe, but my W wasn't even sure what our real issues were, or at least, wouldn't tell me when I tried to find out.
she believes marriage to you now, & "from this day forward",
could be different/better.
So how have YOU shown her that it could be?
What is different in YOU or how you interact with her, that indicates any possible improvement?
If she thinks you'll hold the A over her head like the sword of Damacles
or throw it in her face every time you are upset, she won't come home. (Who would?)
So she may not feel like it's worth even trying...esp if the MC is re-hashing the past or just about how SHE has to do "x" and "y".
Is it possible that
If she sees no change in you, she may Prefer to take her chances w/OM b/c she knows with you she's getting too little attention and too much anger?
have you done any forgiveness work? Not b/c she "deserves" it, but b/c the anger you feel is clearly influencing your choices, and it hurts You.
Through MC, I've told her I understand how we got to where we are. I understand why EAs happened. She felt alone in the marriage. I attribute that to my complacency, laziness, character flaws, and not being aware of the issue. I took full ownership of those things.
I feel like I'm more angry about the fact that she knows how much it hurt me to do what she did, and still wont cut off contact, than the actual EA itself. She's even apologized a few times for hurting me like she did, and betraying my trust, but yet, still wont correct it. But to me it was like her saying, "yeah, sorry about that. Will it happen again? Well, no, but I'm not going to give you any reassurance of that. Hope my apology means something"
Even after EA1, while we were still living together, she absolutely refused to delete OM1 from her facebook, because she didn't want to cause drama (he's a potential job lead down the road, mutual friends, yada yada). I think this is one of the reasons I really shut off between EA1 and EA2. Why not just pull my nuts out and stomp on them.
I know I can forgive the act because I truly do understand why it happened. When I put myself in her shoes, I can't look in the mirror and say I would've been able to refused the extra attention either. Especially when the M was over in most respects.
The problem with me showing her how I'm different is that, it's really hard to show someone how much they really special they are, and how much they mean to you, when you're separated, and you don't want to pursue them. How can I show that I can be romantic when she finds talking to me at a coffee shop forced and unnatural.
MC asked what if I were to climb a ladder, post a note on her window that expressed my love to her so it was the first thing she woke up to. She said she would think "who told you to do this". This is an example of a way I could prove to her I love her, by doing romantic things for her, but it would be very anti-DB.
One of the things she said in our last MC session, is that her mom said the thing that got her and her dad through the rough patches in their M is that she know that she was the most important thing in her dad's life. She never felt that with me. I validated that immediately, and told her how sorry I was about that and if I could do it over again, I would.
MC asked if she asked her dad the same thing, but she didn't know. He challenged her to ask him, but maybe I'll never know the answer. It probably doesn't matter anyway.
Some of the 180s I was able to do no matter what our situation was were: - Learn how to cook, be self supporting - Take better care of myself (exercise, healthier diet, etc) - Have some drive in life again (finished school, signed up for challenging bike race/ride, planning to move to where we always wanted to live)
and or, your purpose in filing it. Is it a last ditch attempt to wake her up?
IF SO, know that it might not. But IF she does look your way or continue in counselling of some sort
what do you think YOU could do differently? It's important you look within b/c the real journey in life is an inward one.
I believe I mentioned my reasons for filing it. Is it a last ditch effort. Yes and know. If it wakes her up, great. If not, and she agrees to it, I'm getting some closure and security in my life.
As for what I could do differently, I'm not really sure at this point. I supposed I could just lay it out on the table. I could write her a letter to let her know that I understand how we got here, that I will forgiver her, and that she's the most special thing in my life, and all I want is to be together and prove to her how special she is to me. That the mistakes I've made will never happen again.
I mean what do I have to lose at this point. I'm already ready to sign a SA. But then what does it really accomplish... will it send her back into my arms? No. Would my boundaries change about OM? No, they wouldn't.
I get that I may not have been at this long enough, but everyone has their own threshold. I feel like I'm peaking at mine.
Okay, that's all for now. I feel like I'm just rambling at this point. Not even sure this all makes sense...
I meant to say: I believe I mentioned my reasons for filing it. Is it a last ditch effort? Yes and No. If it wakes her up, great. Unlikely, but great. If not, and she agrees to it, I'm getting some closure and security in my life.
why not write a letter that you post here first? We can offer to help or review it so you don't begin it with an apology BUT then add "BUT" so that you can justify yourself a few sentences later. It happens a lot.
It'd have to be done so YOU KNOW you said it to her, NOT b/c you expect something in return and you don't get to be hurt or angry if silence is the answer.
Frankly, the best case realistically, is that you'd plant a seed of doubt in her.
B/C I think when you say you "own your part" you MAYBE glossed or skimmed it b/c the examples you gave of you "trying" were admittedly short lived and
when she wasnt ready for sex, you withdrew the attention. To a woman that reeks of manipulation and insincerity.
What struck me the most is what she told the mc about HER parents.
Her mom stayed married to her dad, b/c her mom knew SHE was the most important person in her h's life. That's what your w wants from you -I strongly believe that. But you don't seem able to give it in any sustained way OR,
without conditions attached...(like a quick return on your "investment" = sex)
rather than the sheer joy of just GIVING LOVE to someone without an expectation of pay back attached. B/c then it's just a trade, it's not a gift of love.
why not write a letter that you post here first? We can offer to help or review it so you don't begin it with an apology BUT then add "BUT" so that you can justify yourself a few sentences later. It happens a lot.
It'd have to be done so YOU KNOW you said it to her, NOT b/c you expect something in return and you don't get to be hurt or angry if silence is the answer.
Frankly, the best case realistically, is that you'd plant a seed of doubt in her. [quote] I think this is probably a good idea. I've been already thinking about stuff to say so if I get something together I'll post here for input. I do agree that it needs to be written in a way where I have no expectations.
[quote] B/C I think when you say you "own your part" you MAYBE glossed or skimmed it b/c the examples you gave of you "trying" were admittedly short lived and
when she wasnt ready for sex, you withdrew the attention. To a woman that reeks of manipulation and insincerity.
What struck me the most is what she told the mc about HER parents.
Her mom stayed married to her dad, b/c her mom knew SHE was the most important person in her h's life. That's what your w wants from you -I strongly believe that. But you don't seem able to give it in any sustained way OR,
without conditions attached...(like a quick return on your "investment" = sex)
rather than the sheer joy of just GIVING LOVE to someone without an expectation of pay back attached. B/c then it's just a trade, it's not a gift of love.
Just some thoughts...
As mentioned before, during the last 6 months of our marriage, my 'trying' was sincere in the sense that I truly wanted my marriage to work, but I understand how it could be seen as both manipulative and insincere from her end. That's something I will probably include in the letter in some way.
I guess what I struggle with since finding this site and this approach is this: How do I show my W how important she is to me, without coming off as persuing? Maybe persuing is exactly what I need to do to some degree. She never once asked for space. Even when MC asked if I did that note on her window thing, she didn't say "It's too late for that", she just questioned who would've told me to do it (as you can tell, I've done very little for her in the romantic department).
Maybe what I'm asking for are some actual, real examples of ways I can show her she's special to me without seeming too persue-y, or smothering, AND in a way where I can manage my expectations (or lack thereof).
what about the letter from the WAW to her h? Any thoughts on it?
and what is your w SAYING she wants now, OR is she still conflicted, (as I suspect)?
There were a couple things I thought when reading the letter. One of them is where she talks about knowing that getting deeper with OM will make it harder to go back to H, to see him the same. It actually makes me kind of angry. It's so selfish to me, its saying I know I'm hurting you, I know this is ruining our chances, but I'm doing it anyway. Sorry (insincere)
The other thing is how long it can take to believe in change. Maybe I'm just kind of rushing this because I'm moving and just want a fresh start. A lot of my moving strategy changes depending on whether she's in my life long term. This includes size of home, location, rent, amenities, level of luxury, etc. I like making decisions and being sure of them, but right now I can't.
As for what W wants? No idea. Haven't spoke since last MC session, and even then there was no clear cut direction. She's conflicted. She's thinking 'Can H and I ever have what I need in a marriage?'. And you know, I'm thinking the very same thing. I'm scared about it too. But I'm willing to try figure it out.
One more quick tidbit. Through many of our R talks in and out of MC, she mentions that she felt like I didn't want her as much as I just wanted a W. Feels that I just wanted to be married, and she came along.
I did my best to convince her otherwise, but obviously I haven't done a good job.
what about the letter from the WAW to her h? Any thoughts on it?
and what is your w SAYING she wants now, OR is she still conflicted, (as I suspect)?
There were a couple things I thought when reading the letter. One of them is where she talks about knowing that getting deeper with OM will make it harder to go back to H, to see him the same. It actually makes me kind of angry. It's so selfish to me, its saying I know I'm hurting you, I know this is ruining our chances, but I'm doing it anyway. Sorry (insincere) I see it differently. Although you're right in the sense that she is aware of the great risks, it's BECAUSE of that, she is fearful...she won't have a "fling" b/c her emotional needs are not met IN the marriage.
So to me, It's her saying "I think other men (in general) would treat me better than my h, b/c my h doesn't seem to get me or love me much.
I fear if I get involved with any OM it'll lead to a serious affair (not a "fling) b/c I'm so lonely in my m and an affair, may mean the end of my m. BUT I'm SO lonely IN the marriage, that I may just take the risk..."
The other thing is how long it can take to believe in change. Maybe I'm just kind of rushing this because I'm moving and just want a fresh start. A lot of my moving strategy changes depending on whether she's in my life long term. This includes size of home, location, rent, amenities, level of luxury, etc. I like making decisions and being sure of them, but right now I can't.
there is inherent ambiguity in this situation so that is how it is. Try to embrace the ambiguity b/c you don't have a choice here UNLESS you want to throw in the towel so you can be "sure" that the future does not include her...
As for what W wants? No idea. Haven't spoke since last MC session, and even then there was no clear cut direction. She's conflicted. She's thinking 'Can H and I ever have what I need in a marriage?'. And you know, I'm thinking the very same thing. I'm scared about it too. But I'm willing to try figure it out.
I'm still trying to sort this all out in my head and what I really want to say. In the meantime, would you mind touching on something I wrote in a previous post?
Originally Posted By: ben11
I guess what I struggle with since finding this site and this approach is this: How do I show my W how important she is to me, without coming off as persuing? Maybe persuing is exactly what I need to do to some degree. She never once asked for space. Even when MC asked if I did that note on her window thing, she didn't say "It's too late for that", she just questioned who would've told me to do it (as you can tell, I've done very little for her in the romantic department).
Maybe what I'm asking for are some actual, real examples of ways I can show her she's special to me without seeming too persue-y, or smothering, AND in a way where I can manage my expectations (or lack thereof).
I'm still trying to sort this all out in my head and what I really want to say. In the meantime, would you mind touching on something I wrote in a previous post?
Originally Posted By: ben11
I guess what I struggle with since finding this site and this approach is this: How do I show my W how important she is to me, without coming off as persuing? Maybe persuing is exactly what I need to do to some degree. She never once asked for space. Even when MC asked if I did that note on her window thing, she didn't say "It's too late for that", she just questioned who would've told me to do it (as you can tell, I've done very little for her in the romantic department).
In many cases we urge people to back off b/c the WAS wants them out of their face and the WAS cringes when the LBSer begs. In those cases we know the WAS needs to stop having their choice challenged and they need some air to breathe freely.
I happen to think you are in a different situation. Your w never asked you to get the heck out of her face and she never said she didn't care...IMO, (and I could be wrong)
the problem was she felt under loved
That's why she said what she said about her mother staying married b/c deep down her mom "knew she was the most important thing in dad's life"...
your w does not feel that way. She does Not feel smothered or pursued by you, and by your own admission, she doesn't have much reason to.
I'd look at Crimson's thread for guidance. He had changed a lot for the better and it's real.
It MAY save his marriage OR lead them to reconciliation after a divorce (I have two family members who divorced only to remarry a few years later, btw. So it happens).
Maybe what I'm asking for are some actual, real examples of ways I can show her she's special to me without seeming too persue-y, or smothering, AND in a way where I can manage my expectations (or lack thereof).
do you really fear you'll come off as "Smothering" or do you mean controlling?
Giving of yourself, listening to her like a lover would, or a best friend,
and applauding loudly for the 1% positives she does are starts...also do NOT SHOW HER your anger. It only fuels her desire to leave.
Pay attention to her. Make full eye contact when she speaks and do not interrupt or steer the things she said in a way that you prefer. Let her say her piece.
I don't know where else you two are so I can't say if a lunch or dinner invite would be doable or premature.
But a letter that is given to get things off your chest (ie LOVING things and nothing else)
may start things rolling. Then you can ask if she wants to discuss or process any of it with you and talk then.
I'm not really sure what she would think about it (my persuing). I think it might feel unnatural for her, and she might feel that it's forced. These are both things she said about our 'reset plan' that we agreed to with our MC. This plan included talking x times per week, seeing either x times,etc. It wasn't exactly organic. Maybe if I do it more in a go-with-the-flow' way, it will seem more natural.
I guess the main reason I ask is lets say I ask her out for lunch or something, and things seem to go well. Then a couple days later, or even a week later, I ask her again, and again, things go well (from my point of view), but after say 4-5 times, its always me initiating. Do I just keep going as long as things are positive? It could be seen as 'doing what works', but also could be seen as persuing. I've read it many times on these boards, and busto also told me directly to go at her pace. Respond 'in kind'.
Maybe we'll cross that bridge when/if we get there. Maybe I just need to focus on the letter for now...
I have a good GAL weekend ahead of me. I'm going to take these next few days to enjoy my life (I still love the life I have) and get to it on Monday.
I'm not really sure what she would think about it (my persuing). There is no certainty. But I thought we'd established that pUrsuit is not something you have done much of- AND she has Not asked for the space that some WASs ask for.
So once again, IMO, the advice not to pUrsue is not applicable to your situation.
Yes I could be wrong-- but your approach thus far has only gotten you what? Seems you are headed straight to a divorce.
It's like a game of chicken and so far she is not steering away from the divorce path
MAYBE b/c the OM IS pursuing her and showing her the value she has to him...
It's nice that you are GAL this weekend but the longer you take with expressing your real feelings...well let's just say you sure don't seem to be in much of a hurry.
Do you really love her, or is it that you don't want to be the "rejected one"?
I think it might feel unnatural for her, and she might feel that it's forced. These are both things she said about our 'reset plan' that we agreed to with our MC. This plan included talking x times per week, seeing either x times,etc. It wasn't exactly organic. Maybe if I do it more in a go-with-the-flow' way, it will seem more natural. Agreed. Be flexible but consistently attentive to her. And for a long time I would NOT attach any expectations of her inititating it back.
Do you see how you already want to know when you will get "paid back" or "know" that all is well w/her? Why is that? So you can "stop the WORK"?
This is supposed to be a change you WANT to make so you can be a better man. Trust me on this Ben,
learning to be more romantic & to express love in a more authentic way
is something ALL men ought to learn...geez, work on it and enjoy it!
It's not reasonable to already be worrying about how long you'll have to "try" - as if it's a drag to do so. Maybe that's not what you meant but it's how it struck me.
And it's not all that loving. Ben, see love as a gift to give and let THAT giving feel good to you. No goals attached, no expectations of her reciprocating or wondering when she will...
IF it happens, great. If it takes a long time (they say a month of consistent change for every year of the r, is a guideline, unless she's seen it fail and revert before. Then longer...) so be it. IF NOT, then at least you will know YOU did not let pride or selfishness prevent it.
I guess the main reason I ask is lets say I ask her out for lunch or something, and things seem to go well. Then a couple days later, Uh no you don't wait around...
You two didn't just meet & begun dating so there are No games to play. You call her that night or the next day & you THANK her for the good time...
if the conversation still feels good and you get a nice vibe, you schedule another "event"...NOT a sleepover and without implying that expectation.
It's all about you putting your cards on the table Ben.
or even a week later, I ask her again, and again, things go well (from my point of view), but after say 4-5 times, its always me initiating. Do I just keep going as long as things are positive? YES!
It could be seen as 'doing what works', but also could be seen as persuing. I've read it many times on these boards, and busto also told me directly to go at her pace. Respond 'in kind'. Doing what works is THE priority. Not applying ONE SIZE FITS ALL "no pursuit" to your situation, esp when yours is different.
Maybe we'll cross that bridge when/if we get there. Maybe I just need to focus on the letter for now... Focus on the letter and get a draft finished soon b/c it'll need tweaking. Plus you'll want to give her an open ended question of sorts, to see if she wants it further explained or elaborated on...
I have a good GAL weekend ahead of me. I'm going to take these next few days to enjoy my life (I still love the life I have) and get to it on Monday.
I don’t even really know where to begin in writing this letter. I guess the best place to start would be in saying I’m sorry. I’ve taken a lot of time lately to reflect on our relationship together, and no matter which angle I view it from, I’m overwhelmed with the feeling of how badly I failed you. I failed you as a husband, and I failed you as a friend. I’m not sure if I was oblivious, ignorant, or whatever other description you could use that would have me neglect you like I did. I took you for granted. I regret it deeply, and if given the chance, I’d do so many things differently.
Even when things were really starting to break down, I was so steadfast in the belief that I was a good husband. While maybe I was a ‘good husband’, I was not a good husband for you. I was not in tune to what you needed. I gave you what I thought you needed, without ever figuring out if you were truly happy. I blamed our issues on you, even pressuring you to go for individual counseling while I stayed at home making half-hearted efforts to show you that I was still trying to fix things on my end. I behaved like a little boy that wasn’t getting what he wanted. It’s no wonder we couldn't turn things around then. It’s no wonder why you didn’t want to. I don't blame you.
Since separation, I’ve gone through a whirlwind of emotions, sometimes all in the same day. There has been so much I’ve learned about myself, and how much I still have to learn. How to be a better man, a better husband, a better soulmate. I’m working hard to become the man I’ve always wanted to be, and the man you thought I’d be when you gave me your hand in marriage. I’ve come to realize how complacent I became in our marriage. It’s like I believed that the work stopped after the wedding. Little did I know how that's precisely when the real work had to begin.
I want you to know how special you are to me. I still struggle with the thought of losing the most important person in my life. I know how difficult this has been for you. I think I understand why too, and how it would be hard for you to think about us being together again. The foundation required in a marriage was severely lacking in ours, and I know it would be a lot of work to strip away at what we had, to lay the groundwork for a stronger and more fulfilling marriage. I just want you to know that I want to do that work. I don’t feel ready to throw in the towel, and I don’t want give up on the belief of an awesome marriage with you, the love of my life.
H ============================================================
I read over your story and it's the same as most of the other ones. The thing is that the LBS feels like they have to tell a life story when the WAS just wants to here the bullet points.
Think about it this way. When you were dating your W, did you write her long letters saying how much she means to you? I doubt it. I'm sure the EA's kept their interactions short and to the point also.
Well the letters in the mail... Going to spend the next few days trying to keep my expectations out of the picture, but I already know that will be tough.
I found out today that I won't be able to transfer to the new city I'm planning to move to next month, so that really throws a wrench in my plans. It basically means if I still move, I'll have a 45+ minute commute... Wasnt great news.
W received the letter today and sent me a text. " I just got your letter. I don't know what to say, it was very thoughtful. You are too good to me for everything I have put you through. "
Not really sure where to go with this. After 17 days of not hearing from her I've got accustomed to no contact. I have a few ways I was thinking of replying but not sure about when and how to respond ...
Ben- if I were you I wouldn't respond. You have said your piece, she knows how you feel, now it is time to back off and hopefully she will reflect on what you wrote. I am working really hard to not respond to an email my husband sent me. It was just a strategic email and didn't REALLY need a response though he asked me a question in it, but not one that needs an answer- if that makes sense. Normally I'd just write back something like THANKS!, just to respond because that's my way. But I'm not going to. He knows I check my email a lot and will have gotten it, just like your W knows you got her text.
Sorry about your transfer not going through. Seems like when it rains it pours. But try to think of it in terms of it wasn't meant to be. Did you already commit to moving? Did you already sell/break your lease on your current place?
I remember writing a letter like that to a T. Letters really are more persuing.
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I just got your letter. I don't know what to say, it was very thoughtful. You are too good to me for everything I have put you through. "
She is still rejecting you here. Take a look at Rick1963 thread. there's a lot of wisdom there.
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After 17 days of not hearing from her I've got accustomed to no contact. I have a few ways I was thinking of replying but not sure about when and how to respond ...
Reply to what? She didn;t ask you anything for you to respond to.
You got through 17 days? Wow that's great, it really is. can you do another 17?
I find it so crazy and it drives me crazy that these partners that we have spent so much time with can make us feel like we are walking on eggshells. I'm going through this and the roller coaster and the future isn't in my power but seems to be for my H. The norm of the relationship is so upside down. I catch my self watching every word I will say and never expecting anything in return. This isn't how it's suppose to be. We are in our 19th year of M. I am guessing this is MLC but how he depends on me and it's all do one sided... I am in business with H. This is so difficult for me. We are both connected by this relationship but he needs space. He's been in Europe on business (this is natural) but after he told me he isn't happy nor loves me... He has space! He has had my trust too. I think it's the business he is tired of being that it has been a tough few years... I have spoken of our R since Feb. 14. and we hit a big bump just before he left. He is returning on wednesday and I am to pick him up... Boy I need help!
I could, but I don't see a point. I'm trying to persue my W again. Slowly. She never felt like I made her feel like she was special to me. I dont see how ignoring her for another 17 days is going to benefit our M. I've tried that. Didn't work.
And yes, I've been following ricks thread as well as about 20-30 others. Doesn't seem like the wisdom seems to be helping in his case unfortunately. I don't think it's as simple as a cookie-cutter approach that everyone seems to stress. I'm still GALing, working on 180s, etc, and won't stop doing those ever. However, I need to find a different way to make positive steps in my M.
I could, but I don't see a point. I'm trying to persue my W again. Slowly. She never felt like I made her feel like she was special to me. I dont see how ignoring her for another 17 days is going to benefit our M. I've tried that. Didn't work.
Ben,
I think Gr8 is spot on and has firsthand experience with this dynamic. TRUST HIM. Your W does not want you to pursue her at this point. She knows exactly how you feel. You approached her and put your heart on the table. She did not reciprocate.
Her, "I don't know what to say." and "You are too good for me for everything I have put you through" are classic/script responses for I don't feel it for you the same way that you feel it for me. Your letter probably just reminded her of that in a negative way.
You have to stop trying to woo/pursue/convince her of anything. Your path to success is to accept that she doesn't feel it for you (now) and live your life accordingly. You can't make her love you.
Any rapproachment will come from HER figuring things out on her own, with her beginning to approach YOU again. It is if and when SHE approaches YOU, that you can make her feel special with some flirting or little words of affirmation or acts of service. NOT when you initiate it -- when she is not missing you or feeling it for you. And even these responses on your part need to be flirty and measured -- like you might interact with any other woman you find special and attractive -- and then you move on with yourself (so that she can pursue you more).
I went MONTHS living my own life and enforcing no contact with my W before things began to change. 17 days really is not much, but it is a decent start. Your clock has reset with the letter, now, though.
I had badly neglected and mistreated my W too. If she still has love for you, she will come back and give you a second chance to treat her better, most likely when she thinks you are moving on.
If not, there really isn't anything else you could have done. You've already played all those cards, and she isn't playing back. Don't live your life waiting for her, though.
I know so many cases firsthand now of WAS who left and months or years later (when LBS moved on or began to move on), the WAS wanted back in. You can even skim the comments on this video and see other examples. As one of the posters on the video bluntly said, you are cockblocking yourself by pursuing her or staying in limbo.
This movie should be required viewing for every man on this board.
I guess I see your point. She knows how I feel, inside and out.
I did end up replying later saying that if she wants to talk to me about the letter or anything else, that she knows where to find me and that I miss her.
This morning she sent me a funny and random picture over text. Just replied with 'haha, i like it'.
Like you said in earlier posts, I'll just do my own thing and reciprocate IN KIND. Nothing more.
Maybe gr8s right. Whats another 17 days, and then after that, another 17...
I watched that secene at least 100 times, even lived it.
The scene at the end of the movie is just as note worthy. Is Ex finally calls him, but he has moved on. He swithes over while the ex is I love you. He doesn't even give her 5 minutes!
I lived in fear too. I thought if I did _____ then my WAW wouldn't think I want to work things out. This fear keeps you in limbo. Ask anyone how limbo feels and I guarantee you they will ALL say it sux! Ask those who chose to move on regardless of the outcome and they will all say it felt great to be out of limbo.
Ben11,
These little texts she sends you area tests so she knows she still has you as a back up plan. Removing yourself as a back up plan will force her to face her reality.
I also get the whole mentality of not being "a good H" We blame ourselves for the break up for too long. We say: If I only did this Or If I could have one more chance Things would be different. Right?
The fact you came to an online forum to save your M speaks volumes to me and others.
We all have choices, even our WAW. I'm sure they could have all done something different too.
The fact is were here. You are young. Don't you want someone who wants to be with you? That's the mentality that got me through my D.
I deserve someone who is awesome. I have kids with my Ex. I speak to her only regarding the kids. I was completely dark just months ago. I didn't even say hi to her when we exchanged the kids. Guess what? she noticed, she started to make little trival contacts with me throught texts. Since it wa about the kids, I didn't reply. She told our mutual friend that gr8 doesn't talk to me at all.
I couldn't care less what she does with her life any more. I have two great kids who love me so much and want to be with me all the time. She works second shift and only sees D7 Friday nights.
That's the reality she chose. She knows exactly what to do if she ever wants my friendship in the future. For now, she hasn't shown me. And that's perfectly fine with me.
Haha yeah I watched that scene too right after. I should watch that on my next night off. Great flick.
Thanks for the advice. I agree. Limbo really does suck. My problem is I go back and forth so much in my own head with what direction I want to take.
I'll have 4 hours where I'm convinced I just need to tell her to grab the rest of her stuff, get her to tell me its not going to work, so I can just move on.
For other chunks of the day, I want to 'prove' to her that she IS special to me, and make her really believe it. Just do what ever it takes.
And the rest of the day I just think, "I don't care about what happens, I'm just going to do what I want and whatever happens, happens"
Gr8, are you suggesting that I don't reply to anything she texts me? Like if she sends me a random text with a funny picture in it that I don't even acknowledge it?
I'll have 4 hours where I'm convinced I just need to tell her to grab the rest of her stuff, get her to tell me its not going to work, so I can just move on.
For other chunks of the day, I want to 'prove' to her that she IS special to me, and make her really believe it. Just do what ever it takes.
And the rest of the day I just think, "I don't care about what happens, I'm just going to do what I want and whatever happens, happens"
Been there, done that.
Scratch number two completely. I' like the staement about she needs to get the rest of her stuff. Don't worry about what she SAYS. Words mean nothing. Actions are what your looking at now. Part three How about a blend. I like the attitude that no matter what happens you're going to move on and have a great life with or with out her. Live your life according to your code. First define your code. By that I mean what are your beliefs? Your core values? Live by those and definitive lines drawn and people will respect you, even your WAS.
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Gr8, are you suggesting that I don't reply to anything she texts me? Like if she sends me a random text with a funny picture in it that I don't even acknowledge it?
What are you getting from them?
Would you reply to a boss that fired you from a job?
I don't really need to worry about the texts much... I think that was her way to respond to my message, without really responding. I don't expect to get many/any more messages like that.
And how I'd reply to a boss that fired me? I dunno. Depends I guess why I was fired and how long it's been. I want to show the boss that he fired me by mistake, so may as well keep the road to R open, or 'paved and smooth'.
One thing I know is that carrying a grudge is way too much work. I don't want to do anything out of spite, retaliation, or vindictiveness, which includes deliberately ignoring messages from W. Sure, I don't need to expand on them, but I can acknowledge them in a way that doesn't smell of persual. I want to be who I am: a fun, happy, and loyal person. I want to treat others how I'd like to be treated. I've wasted time in the past being angry and vindictive (not just with W), and it never got me anywhere. This is a 180 just for life in general. Feels good to let go of the grudges.
Yeah, none of this is about being vindictive or spiteful or punishing. It's about being who you want to be and living the way you want to live.
Who wants to live in limbo, fixated on a WAS that does not want to be with them?
Again, watch Swingers. Watch his life when he is in limbo and still fixated on her. Just look at Mikey. He's a wreck! He overlooks all the positive things he's got going for him. Not just how positive his future is, but how positive his present is. But because he is so preoccupied with his WAS and the broken relationship, he overlooks the good and high potential in himself and his life.
.
Like gr8 said, no one needs to play a waiting game. You accept that your W has fired you as her H. If you get fired from a job, do you hang around texting your boss and writing them letters and hoping they will change their mind? Nah, you'd maybe work to improve yourself and fix whatever you got fired for, enjoy some of the time off while you can being busy with stuff you enjoy, and then start to look for another job. There are thousands of other jobs out there that you are highly qualified for. Maybe the boss will realize what a big mistake she made in letting you go and call you to ask you back. For her sake, hopefully sooner than later.
If not, you'll be ok because there are LOTS of well-paying jobs out there with all kinds of benefits you may not have even imagined. And a well spent vacation ain't bad either.
(Gr8, btw, it is gr8 to see you. Sounds like things are going awesome for you and the kiddos, congrats!)
I appreciate both of your input... kind of what I needed to hear right now. For the most part, I'm doing pretty good at recognizing the good in my life. I just need to let go a bit more of the things I can't control. I'll work on that.
I've been mulling over a trip to Europe in the fall. Just me, a backpack, some cash, and a camera. It's been over 3 weeks of thinking about it, and I get more and more excited to do it the more I think about it.
I just need to let go a bit more of the things I can't control
Yes, Letting go completely of what you cont cantrol is even better. It takes retraining the mind and it wont happen over noght the key is the be aware when things are happening.
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What would either of your opinion be on dating?
I leave that up to you to decide what's best for you. For my experience, I chose to date 8 months after the bomb. And that was after looking my W in the eyes and asking if she wanted a D? And if she thought that was the best thing for us? Both yes. Don't date if your looking to just get back your ex. Women are very keen on picking up on that vibe and will not want to see you again. Dating did give me back my confidence. The feelig of someone WANTING to be with me was great. I thought I was totally over my WAW. I needed more time to heal. However, after my WAW found out I was dating and was happy, she then started to have second thoughts. She did come back.
If you think getting a second chance was hard, piecing is 10 times harder.
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I've been mulling over a trip to Europe in the fall. Just me, a backpack, some cash, and a camera. It's been over 3 weeks of thinking about it, and I get more and more excited to do it the more I think about it.
Excellent idea, start living. only you can make that happen. That's in your control.
The backpacking idea is so perfect. Hard to do that if you are married to (or even in a relationship with) someone. That's right, seize the opportunity that life has given you.
Re: dating, I was all over the place in my mind with this, which to me made it clear to me that I was not ready for it. Being around women I would recommend, though. Just getting flirted with and hit on does wonders for the soul.
And you may end up with a crazy story involving your soon-to-be divorced next door neighbor trying to pick you up in the dark storage bowels of a model train museum while you drink keg beer with random hash house harriers after you literally ran over her on a jog 30 miles from home in the pouring rain under the biggest double rainbow in recorded history.
And you may end up with a crazy story involving your soon-to-be divorced next door neighbor trying to pick you up in the dark storage bowels of a model train museum while you drink keg beer with random hash house harriers after you literally ran over her on a jog 30 miles from home in the pouring rain under the biggest double rainbow in recorded history.
Ya, we're gonna need to hear more of this story!
The weird/funny/twisted part of me and this potential Europe trip is I'd actually like to go as a totally single guy. I want to just do whatever I want without worrying about the morarity of having a W (in any capacity) back at home... If you catch my drift.
And the dating question is just when it would be "okay" to start actively persuing other women for a more than friends relationship. This could include online dating or getting set up on dates with friends of friends. I don't feel ready yet, and may not until/if D is final, was just putting it out there.
And you may end up with a crazy story involving your soon-to-be divorced next door neighbor trying to pick you up in the dark storage bowels of a model train museum while you drink keg beer with random hash house harriers after you literally ran over her on a jog 30 miles from home in the pouring rain under the biggest double rainbow in recorded history.
Ya, we're gonna need to hear more of this story!
The weird/funny/twisted part of me and this potential Europe trip is I'd actually like to go as a totally single guy. I want to just do whatever I want without worrying about the morarity of having a W (in any capacity) back at home... If you catch my drift.
And the dating question is just when it would be "okay" to start actively persuing other women for a more than friends relationship. This could include online dating or getting set up on dates with friends of friends. I don't feel ready yet, and may not until/if D is final, was just putting it out there.
BEN-so is this^^^ your status now? Too much work to bother? Never saw the follow up posts - soooo I wondered...
I went to Europe as a single woman. Years later I went as a happily m woman. The latter was better...the single woman travelling in Europe is often like a Penthouse Forum article MEANING it's just a fantasy...not reality, I had fun and a fling or two, or three...
But that means a lot of time alone at night too and a lot of flings that were nothing special..although in such lovely areas...
and sometimes in a beautiful historic place, a "date" can say the stupidest things b/c hey, they don't "get" you b/c how can they? They don't know you.
Good luck Ben-hope at least you learned something so you aren't in the same boat in 3 years
I wouldn't say I'm done completely. I'm just trying to convince myself that I'm moving on, because I feel that it's the only way to truly get W back; for the both of us to believe that I'm over it.
Basically what I meant about going to Europe is if after 4-5 more months of the same of this, I'd rather just go as a pure bachelor. And it's easy for you to think that I'm going with the goal of man-whoring it up, but I'm not really that type of guy. I saved myself for M. I'm much more of a drink-beers-in-a-pub type of guy, but I'd like to just let whatever happens happen without feeling guilt.
Also, if we were to somehow R, Europe trip would probably be off. It's most likely she wouldn't be able to get the time to take off to make it worth while.
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Good luck Ben-hope at least you learned something so you aren't in the same boat in 3 years
Not sure if this you're being serious here...
What can I say... I'm obviously conflicted still. That's why I ramble on this board instead of having stupid conversations with my W. I'd love to just ask her now WTF she want's to do, if she thinks she wants a D, if she still loves me, what could I do to prove to her I truly want to be with her, etc.
She knows how I feel, I wrote her that letter. I guess I just fear that she'll have the mentality that I wrote the letter, but I'm not following up on it at all. Kind of the same thought she had when she wrote me the card in Feb and it didn't go well.
I know how you feel that you just want to ask her those questions, but in a sense you can't really now. Like you said, you stated how you felt and she knows. If she has not brought up D, I would not bring that up or push her because then if you put that thought into her head (even if it is already there) then it's in there more.
My H, unlike your W, has mentioned D but he says it's all in my hands now how we get D. My take is that if he really wants it, he should go file and do it!
Thanks HaP, Just going to keep on keeping on. The seed has been planted. Let's see if the ground is fertile enough for something to root.
Going away for the weekend with 7 or so buddies for some cheap american beer and some golf. Looking forward to it. I'm thankful this has happened when I'm young. Makes the GAL a lot easier.
