Never thought I'd be here........Part 5Thought I would take everyone's advice and start a new thread before the other went on lock down.
So the question that had been posed is how do you balance (or should I say how do I balance) letting my w know that I am happy knowing that she will equate it to her being gone and hence STAY gone. As opposed to letting her know that I am NOT happy without her, but living my life in a positive manner.
Crimson
what everyone else said...
be happy b/c no matter what twist YOU fear she'll put on it ("I knew you would be"--means either she's the problem OR that you don't really care for her --- but you'll show her in other ways that you DO)
the alternative of being miserable, is NOT appealing or attractive.
I don't know how else to say that or hammer it in. Being happy and content is a positive trait (that's why Aristotle said "happiness is a virtue" b/c he knows we create it for ourselves)
and being sad or discontent, let alone depressed or morose is, quite frankly, a tad repulsive. SORRY!!!
When my h began to want to reconcile he mentioned that he had not gone outside Other than work, in a few days, He said "I think I'm a little depressed"...and later in the talk he mentioned missing me and the kids...yes it struck me. But I didn't want to be his cure. I wanted to be his partner.
Don't lay the responsiblity of your happiness in her lap and think she'll want to pick that up.
Okay? You can convey that you want her in your life without being sad.
If you are happy, your W won't be opposed to being around you, knowing that you aren't going to be all hound dog on her.
Once you are happy and you define the qualities of a partner that you would like to share your happy with... then YOU get to decide whether or not your W fits that bill...
IF your W fits the bill, SHE gets to choose whether she wants to share happy with you...
It is a choice that two people make as individuals... towards a mutually desired and healthy partnership...
Your W wouldn't want to be with someone who is unhappy...
and if your W is crazy enough to NOT want to be with you in your happy state... would you really want her to be unhappy in that role?
I hear you, and agree with you KD. But what if she just hates my a$$ right now? I mean, I don't THINK that is the case - but who knows. She has been kind enough to invite me into her condo to play with the baby on "her" day with him. We don't have "deep" talks in those moments, but we DO talk.
I guess I keep going back to the fact that yes, she sees me as being happy - and that is a good thing. But she thinks I am happy because she is out of my life and that is a bad thing.
Do I tell her yes - I am happy, but it is not BECAUSE you're gone - it's DESPITE the fact that you're gone. I am happy because I have gotten out of my own way and have decided to focus on making myself happy. I am focusing on making the changes necessary to make life better for me - and I want you and S to be a part of that.
I wanted to say that "not a day goes by where I don't miss you and our son together" - but that sounds kind of pathetic, doesn't it?
Did NOT expect this part to be so thought provoking.
Crimson
But what if she just hates my a$$ right now?
...
I guess I keep going back to the fact assumption that ... she thinks I am happy because she is out of my life ...
Of she hates your butt, right now... then she hates your butt...
right now. And that is NO reason to think she will always hate your butt...
When she mentions you are happy, VALIDATE. "Yes, I am happy."
IF... IF, IF,
IF she says, "I knew you would be happy without me." THEN you can mention that your happiness has NOTHING TO DO with her not being in your life.
Anything else is mind reading.
Hey Crimson,
Sorry to be blunt here, but
Can't help but feel that you're still trying to tell her she's wrong.
You know we can't TELL them, we can only ACT as better people.
And do you truly think she doesn't know that "not a day goes by where I don't miss you and our son together"?
And if you do know this, what does telling her again achieve? One thing for sure, it makes her feel bad about herself. That is, in her mind, again, YOU make her feel BAD.
This is not the outcome to strive for.
My advice, for what it's worth, is to be patient, re-read DR, and realise that this situation is probably not going to change in a hurry.
If she initiates R talk again, you could, maybe, put forward a line or two about having worked on yourself and having realised the importance of the changes you've made for your relationship with S. But that's about all I'd offer at this stage.
Leave the rest to your actions. And believe me, she's going to notice - your son's behaviour as he grows, even when you are not there, will demonstrate how much you've changed.
Sorry if this sounds too forceful, I really feel for you on this point and am going through the same issue myself (with the added complication that my H believes I am not only happier without him, but 'better off', as he has 'ruined my life').
NLW
Do I tell her yes - I am happy, but it is not BECAUSE you're gone
-
No, let her figure it out.
Listen, why are you scared of this? You can't lose it if you don't have it, so why are you scared of losing it?
Instead of her thinking that you're the loser......maybe she needs to wonder if she's the real loser in this situation. And, she will....if she sees you being happy and being the better man that you've become. And, let's face the truth here okay? You
are happier b/c she left you! If she had not left you, then you'd be the same as you were in past years. When she left you, it forced you to do something about yourself. But here's a secret.....you don't have to tell the woman that!
Sure, Sandi - I see your point and fully acknowledge that you know a TON more about this than I do. Let me say that again - a TON.
You sure have a lot of faith that she sees and feels a LOT more than I think she does. I hope you are right!
Crimson
So much wisdom in these ^^^^ words and others that have posted.
Crimson - don't forget, Sandi was in your W's shoes. She knows what is talking about.
Dude, not as sagely as the others here,but relax - you are doing great!!I do not always post, I do however follow your sitch closley. You are a great guy and she knows it. Give her time to heal.
Welcome to the "meat and potatoes" of DBing...
The "what if's" that you are going through, and that want to temperature check is all traced back to fear.
Fear of what ?
Mostly all of the fears that you have inside of you.
The fear of failure
The fear of your son growing up in a Divorced home
Actually, the fear of success is the one you may be going through right now.
You are so afraid that if you take a step toward the positive, without her, you are choosing to keep yourself locked in that basement, giving yourself every available excuse to stay there.
Taking steps toward your happiness is all part of forgiving yourself through this.
YOUR guilt in the breakdown of the relationship is probably part of that.
Do you feel guilty when you are happy ?
You taking steps to being happy, should in no way be tied to what she does or how she feels.
Being happy, is a lighthouse that can attract people to you.
What she chooses to see or do, is entirely up to her.
Do you really want her to have that much power over your emotions ???
I just feel like the more time that passes, the further removed she gets from me and any real estate I had in her heart starts to contract. DB is tough. I never really know the right things to do, especially when it comes to communiction about the relationship - which I have totally avoided. DB would suggest just pull back and wait for her to come to you. I DON'T KNOW if her asking for this was her "coming to me" or not. I want it to be that - but maybe I want it too much.
I just feel like doing nothing but giving distance (Which I have been doing)is harming and not helping - though I CAN see the case that can be made about giving space and time. I am so lost.
I just want my W and S back, and I don't know how to go about it.
The way to do this, is to LIVE.
Crimson,
DB is counterintuitive. It goes against what we logically want to do. It feels uncomfortable and confusing.
Here is a question for you since feeling like giving her distance isn't helping.
Did begging, pleading, pursuing, asking her to go to counseling etc...get her to do any of those things?
Right now, you have an amicable R with her. Don't screw it up.
Keep your communication simple, light, and honest like that post of your's that Mach quoted.
Be happy, simply because you are happy.
Stop trying to mindread. Your W doesn't necessarily think you are happy because she is gone. Unless you have actually said that to her, don't worry about correcting it.
Right now, she thinks what she thinks. No matter what you say.
Just be.
Cat -
All of those things got me nowhere. In fact, I would argue that they worked against me. That is the hook in DR that really drew me in - MWD knew what I had been doing, and knew that it was failing.....miserably. That book, and that realization brought me to the amazing people on this board.
I have never told my wife that I am happier with her being gone. But I believe that she believes that.
I have to trust that giving her space and time is a good thing. Perhaps as grmpy said, "to heal". I just feel like I get farther and farther away from her head and heart. You're right - I noted awhile ago that this DB business is counterintuitive. I feel like I have isolated my w, perhaps for the best.
Crimson
"Welcome to the "meat and potatoes" of DBing..."
You can say that again, Mach. Sheez!
GM - they got me nowhere with regards to DB or personal growth. I didn't know I was chasing her away as fast as possible. I have pulled waaaaaaay back since then. I guess you can say they got me somewhere personally in terms of learning what NOT to do.
Crimson
I guess i am partially wound up because I have an initial court appearance with w and Ls wednesday. It's to go over how much child support and spousal maintenance I will have to give her. Along with my retirement accounts and company stock options (we have not had an IPO yet)
I am so not looking forward to looking across a table in a courtroom and seeing my w as an adversary. The whole concept seems surreal. I love her. She is not the enemy and the court doesn't need to dictate when I (or my wife) can see our S.
Every "real" step like this we take on the D path really bums me out and causes me to lose hope. I wish Wednesday didn't have to happen. I hope I am strong enough to get through it bravely and without emotion. I wonder if my w is feeling anxious about it like me. Of course, she won't be writing me monthly checks, so I would guess she has little to truly fear. Seems like all upside for her - financially anyway.
Bad way to think of it, but I am in a fairly scared place right now.
Crimson
I think you have what you need to say right here:
" I am happy because I have gotten out of my own way and have decided to focus on making myself happy. I am focusing on making the changes necessary to make life better for me."
Sandi is giving you excellent advise.
I might of missed it but did your wife work or was she a stay at home mom?
Worked. That should soften the blow a bit, plus she has a
Masters degree. Still, there is a nice income gap.
Hey - just wanted to say a big THANKS to everyone. I have gotten a mountain of good feedback, advice and overall positive energy over the last day or two and I want everyone to know that I am grateful for all of it. It is not a stretch when I say I owe a lot of my stability and (dare I say?) happiness to MWD, DR, DB and this board. This truly is the best, worst place to be. SO again, I say thank you.
I still am having a lot of nerves about the court appearance tomorrow. Again, sitting in a court room and seeing the woman I love as a "foe" really plays with my mind. Not that I can control it, but I can't help but wonder how she feels about it.
She texted me yesterday saying that she missed our S. I asked her if it would help if I brought him by after work for a little bit to visit - trying to extend a hand. She replied "no, I'll wait".
I know I have probably said this in other threads, but I SO want ot tell her that she doesn't HAVE to miss our son. That there is hope in our relationship and neither of us has to do without him. If it is as painful for her as it is for me when he is gone, and I am fairly certain that it is, accepting that pain as opposed to trying to work on our R just makes no sense to me. I am not her, so I can't guess how she measures things - but I don't think I was a monster of a husband. I feel as though I a worthy of a second chance.....worthy of being a dad for my son and a H for my wife.
I have to drop him off today with her and I won't see him again until Sunday night. Already I am sorta sad about it. He is such an awesome little guy - being without him and the energy that he brings to the house is tough and I feel like I am always counting the days until he is back again.
Meh - enough of my pity party - just lifting some sadness off of my chest. I hope I get to be a full-time dad and H one of these days again. Preferably to my W.
Crimson
I SO want ot tell her that she doesn't HAVE to miss our son. That there is hope in our relationship and neither of us has to do without him.
Ah yes the bargaining.
But we can just take the pain away by reconciling.
That is you projecting on her and I haven't read your whole thread but did you do this during the M?
I think you know enough not to say this to her.
I am trying to get you to dig into why you would think it?
IF you said it would that be validating her? Is thinking it validating her?
If, as you say, it is the most painful thing then she must have a pretty good reason for deciding to go through all that pain.
What do you think that is?
I pulled this from own volumes and the poster is Bworl:
When a spouse walks away, it isn't usually a spur of the moment decision. The groundwork for her desire to be out of the relationship was laid bit by bit over many years.
She started out trusting you and believing in you. She started out knowing that you would love her and desire her presence in your life.
As the years went by and she found out time and again that what she believed was in fact not true...well...it changes people inside. She didn't wake up one morning and decide to go. She talked herself in to this being her only suitable response to life with you.
I don't say this hurt you.
I say this to further drive home the point that this will not be fixed in a short amount of time, and it will not be fixed with a few weeks or months of kind words.
It will take time.
It sounds like you are working on your problems. This is what you CAN do right now. And you damned well better take it seriously, because if you are given another chance, I think it will likely be your last. Make these changes REAL and LASTING, and make them because you AGREE that they need to be made, NOT because you want your marriage back.
You.
Work on you.
Leave her alone.
It sounds ridiculous, but I'm certain it's right.I hope it helps Crimson.
TrueGritter -
I would never in a million years say that to her. Sure, maybe during my pre-DB days I would have (hell, I MIGHT have) - but now I know much, much better.
The only reason I think that now is that I have spent a lot of time digging into myself and my contributions to our meltdown and trying to rectify things. Honestly (to borrow from 25) I think marriage to me would be different and better from this point forward. SO, I say that she doesn't HAVE to lose time with our son because the life that she left is not the life she would be coming back to.
I know that I have unknowingly caused a lot of harm and emotional damange to her....QUITE by accident - and I know it will take time to heal and for her to trust me again.
Wanting it now, and wanting her to believe instantly that life will be better is a total fantasy - I know that. It took me awhile to get there, it will take me awhile to get out.
Crimson
Well, letter is done. Even bought nice stationary. There is a lot of validation in it - for her, that is. I actually feel pretty good about it and openly accept the fact that it is not a silver bullet and will not magically send her running back into my arms. That's gonna take some time.
Regarding the "I think you're happier not being married to me, I always suspected that would be the case" line from her, I said the following:
"I have found happiness, W. But it is not for the reason you think. I am happier because after 38 years I am finally getting out of my own way and focusing on building the things that make my life happy and walking away from the negatives that I brought down upon myself that were taking happiness away".
Crimson
When a spouse walks away, it isn't usually a spur of the moment decision. The groundwork for her desire to be out of the relationship was laid bit by bit over many years.
She started out trusting you and believing in you. She started out knowing that you would love her and desire her presence in your life.
As the years went by and she found out time and again that what she believed was in fact not true...well...it changes people inside. She didn't wake up one morning and decide to go. She talked herself in to this being her only suitable response to life with you.
That's for damn sure the way it happens!
I still am having a lot of nerves about the court appearance tomorrow. Understandably. It's unnerving and even scary. Again, sitting in a court room and seeing the woman I love as a "foe" really plays with my mind. It played with my mind too. I just couldn't get my mind around it! How could she do this? It's a hard reality. Damn hard. Not that I can control it, but I can't help but wonder how she feels about it? The fact that she has you in Court should tell you how she feels about it Crimson!
I know what you're feeling. I don't say these things to hurt you. I want you to KNOW that this Court stuff is about to happen...and you've gotta be as strong as you can be...for YOU!
Good luck tomorrow.
I guess i am partially wound up because I have an initial court appearance with w and Ls wednesday. It's to go over how much child support and spousal maintenance I will have to give her.---She is not the enemy and the court doesn't need to dictate when I (or my wife) can see our S.
Every "real" step like this we take on the D path really bums me out and causes me to lose hope.
You assume she feels nothing. I don't.
I wish Wednesday didn't have to happen. I hope I am strong enough to get through it bravely and without emotion.
Stay strong, don't hide how you feel but keep it together, and know that she's hurting too. That may help you...
I wonder if my w is feeling anxious about it like me.
YES I BELIEVE THIS ABSOLUTELY
Of course, she won't be writing me monthly checks, so I would guess she has little to truly fear. Seems like all upside for her - financially anyway.
you really think that's how she sees it? I don't. I think she feels crappy right now and among other things that sadden her, she misses son...which I'm sure is true. But she's freaking out also...and she has the 2nd thoughts and self doubts to cope with as well, which you do not.
A WAS always has to 2nd guess their choice to leave.
IF they see the LBSer actually change for real, they'll ask themselves if they should have stayed...
or they'll ask themselves if the LBSer really would have made those changes last for THEM and over time
And they'll wonder if they should have tried once more...
they will 2nd guess their choice. Every time a new r goes bad or an event with son happens and he asks for you or misses you, or YOU have another child, or she does, she will wonder...
You, the LBSer have no choice. You must make the best of a bad situation and learn from it and move forward being the best person you can be, and leave the results up to God.
The LBSer who works on themself can be at peace, but the WAS who sees real change in their former spouse, can never completely stop wondering..."what if?"
Bad way to think of it, but I am in a fairly scared place right now.
Crimson
yep it's a bad way to think about it.
You've done your best so tomorrow, be your best - and leave the outcome up to HIM...he knows what's going on...and we are
sending you prayers and hugs
Thanks everyone. Dropped off S with W and dropped off letter. I also had to give her a nice sized check, as per my L. She asked what it was for - I just said it was "for her".
She didn't say much to me, not even "bye" really. If she never brings up the letter I will never bring it up myself.
I always hate dropping off my son. The drive back home is always....."emotional". I miss him so much when he is gone and I won't see him again till Sunday night. That burns. So many little reminders of him scattered around the house.
Hope I do OK tomorrow. Thanks for your support.
Crimson
Take care this week C. Hope you find plenty to keep occupied with. For me I tend to be anti-social when feeling down but am learning its better to get out and be with people. Stay busy and take care of yourself this week (besides, being busy will make Sunday come faster, right???)
Hey Crimson I know you will do well tomorrow. I know that fear too well and the anger and acceptance mixture that goes with it. Remember this you have no control or the ability to stop it. But you must protect you the very best. My court date is in March . And have been preparing myself. Stop wondering how she feels about it. She is having the same mixed emotions as you are unless she is antisocial and does not have remorse in her. This can all change in a dime because she is not super human. Good luck buddy we are pulling for you
Well, surprised to get a text from W regarding letter.
"Thank you for the letter. It will take time to process but I am happy for you. I am also deeply heartbroken. Maybe the letter will help me heal."
I replied "Thank you for taking the time to read it. I meant every word. I am heartbroken as well and deeply sorry for all that I've done."
She followed up with "I'll never understand why me leaving was the only thing that worked."
Well, I surely have an answer for that. Want to tell her that with the vector and heading I was on, nothing short of something this jarring and disruptive would have gotten my attention. I know that for a fact.
I know this hasn't changed anything. But at least she knows what is in my head and heart now. She didn't yell or recoil in horror, so I will call it a "decent" Idea.
Crimson
Perhaps the seed was planted...
Good luck tomorrow - hang in there!
Maybe a little seed, LA. I didn't respond to her text about why it took her leaving. I'll just let it go.
what??
hello!???
that was the best response to the letter you could have realistically hoped for...
I say ---YAY!!!
As for replying to her last comment...let's ponder
I know, 25. I am not looking past that point at all. If I am being honest, I guess I don't fully understand her reply. Regardless, I think it went well.
Regarding pondering.....let's. Like I said, I think I know the answer to that question.
Crimson
....I mean, heal from what? My actions? Filing for D? And what does "heal" mean? Move on and be free from M once and for all? Listen, I know I shouldn't read this much into it and I'm trying to keep my brain in check, but now I have questions.
"I'll never understand why me leaving was the only thing that worked."
Hummmm......so hard to know what tone she was using when she sent this, but based on the other statements, I tend to think she said it with sorrow and frustration. At the same time, it seems she sees that it "worked". That's better than her seeing that you'll never change....even if she leaves. So, perhaps the letter, plus timing, plus your hard work has planted a seed. I believe timing is everything.
Emotions and doubt will be tugging very hard on her heart as the time approaches for court. Don't shut her out. Stay open. Look at her. If she's looks your way....don't turn away. Look into her eyes as if you are looking into her soul. Let your eyes do the talking.
Her lawyer may try to keep her separated from you when arriving to the courthouse. But if the two of you
should meetin the hall or at the doors.....just wait and give her time, in case she says somethin. IOW, don't turn away. I'm not saying you are to start crying or begging or anything like that. I'm just saying to be open to her in case her eyes are searching yours, and let your face tell her what she wants to know.
Just remember, there is nothing that can happen this day that you and God can't handle
Thinking of you to day Crimson! Good luck. You are in my prayers....
He Dude, thinking about you today! Be strong.
They can't eat you!
....I mean, heal from what? My actions? Filing for D? And what does "heal" mean? Move on and be free from M once and for all? Listen, I know I shouldn't read this much into it and I'm trying to keep my brain in check, but now I have questions.
Are you an engineer?
Don't worry about every comma, look at the general tone. It was good. And I think the timing was spot on. You gave her things to think about and she responded in a thoughtful way, not an angry, rejecting way.
You've stirred her.
Crimson
First of all for today be the man with courage and integrity that you weren't before.
We have a little saying around here:
You can't talk your way out of something you acted your way into.
The letter and her response is positive. I'm with 25 on that. But you should have no expectations.
And this is over when YOU say it is.
Not because of some judge or a piece of paper.
The only reason I think that now is that I have spent a lot of time digging into myself and my contributions to our meltdown and trying to rectify things.
There is a time to look at these things and you have done so.
Now.
Forgive yourself. Your remorse serves you best in your own contrition and healing.
When you keep apologizing it is pursuing, needy, and reminding her of how long she suffered your behavior.
Act your changes. Live your changes. Whether she is looking or not.
Whether you think she is watching or not. She is.
Be strong today.
Best.
You owe someone $100. I'm not an engineer. But I was a banker for almost 10 years and an MBA. Soooooo......yeah, I have a problem with excessive analysis. I am a marketer by trade and education.
Now
Discovered that today's legal "festivities" will be conducted telephonically. Ergo, I won't have to be in a courtroom with my wife and her lawyer. Rather, I will be in my lawyers office for it with a judge on the line. Still....I am apprehensive, but I will do my best with it. Thanks for all of your thoughts and prayers. I am sincerely appreciative.
Working on forgiving myself, TG. To be honest, spelling things out for my W helped. I think I am at a relatively new phase of this process now. I have no intent to keep apologizing or pursuing. I feel that I have placed my feelings on the table and that only needs to be done once. If we ever talk face to face about these matters, I will address them.
LA = "They can't eat you"....that is gold.
Crimson
BTW, GM - I think it just weighs heavy on me because (as campy as this sounds) I never wanted to be someone to break my wife's heart. That is hard to swallow - but a truth nonetheless. I had the best of intentions - and unbeknownst to myself, I was traveling in the opposite direction. I hurt her to the point of making a gut-wrenching decision. I don't like the fact that I did that one bit.
Crimson
BTW, GM - I think it just weighs heavy on me because (as campy as this sounds) I never wanted to be someone to break my wife's heart. That is hard to swallow - but a truth nonetheless. I had the best of intentions - and unbeknownst to myself, I was traveling in the opposite direction. I hurt her to the point of making a gut-wrenching decision. I don't like the fact that I did that one bit.
Crimson
You're not alone on this one. Can't change the past. We can only move forward...
So the judge decides not to show up today. Lovely. Thank you, wheels of justice for your efficient and effective grinding. I sat in my Ls office while he was on tbe phone with Ws L and court clerk arranging dates. Also drafted a $ proposal for spousal maint. and child support. If this goes through to the end, I am going to end up paying a lot of money for a long time for a D I would saw my foot off to avoid. If we have a hearing, the whole banana could be done around May. If there is no hearing, maybe sooner.
Thanks GM, my W is a good person. She is a good person and a beautiful soul - I have never contradicted that in this process regardless of how angry I've gotten. Never meant to hurt her, never meant to let her down, never meant to break her heart. Hell, I didn't even know I was doing it.
I still pray that there is hope for me, my W, my S and my M. Thank you all for your thoughts, prayers, advice and guidance.
Crimson
Coincidence is God's way of staying anonymous.... Albert Einstein
Keep looking straight ahead buddy....
Let this breathe for a while
Crimson buddy - I am so glad you did this. I have never seen anyone agonize so much over what to do as you did for this letter, but I think this was the best thing you could have ever done, and yes, I believ without a doubt the seed was planted.
Best to you, you're a great guy.
C man - maybe the judge not showing was divine providence. Your wife is going to have time to think about your letter to her and she seems very receptive to its meaning.
Stay strong, no need to backslide. I believe she does see the man you have become. And I think she will reflect on why she had to leave to make this all happen, but maybe she will see what growth has come out of this.
What he said ^^^. So true!
Yeah - I keep feeling like I need to "do" something, but I would figure now would be an ideal time for me to quietly glide back into the woodwork for a bit. I probably WILL give her a brief response to her "I'll never understand why my leaving was the only thing that worked" remark. Truthfully, I almost put that in the letter, but decided against it. Outside of that, IF I elect to do it - I figure I have little else to proactively say at the moment. I can just hope that she lets everything kind of soak in.
I will say this, though - her admitting that she is "deeply heartbroken" kind of explains why she lets loose with a touch of anger on me every now and then.
Crimson
Ok then. What's this mean? Got text from w this afternoon.
"Do you still see same counselor?
Do you think it would be a good idea to do a joint session to process your letter. It is overwhelming to me."
Not sure what to think......VERY open to commentary right now. Is this a good thing?
it is GREAT
wtf? It's great Crimson...Jesus...
The seed is perhaps starting to sprout.
Go slow but be positive.
How about: "Yes, I still see the same counselor. Would you like me to see if I can set up an appt for us?"
I told her that I'd been meaning to make an appt for me. She asked if I thought it would be a good idea. I said "yes" and that I would set it up.
I am kinda scared to be excited......but I am happy. Shocked. Keeping expectations LOW.
Crimson.
Good, stick to your game plan. You have a lot of people rooting for you.
Maybe I should write a letter. Could you post the template?
Holy canoli, Crimson! Talk about divine intervention. Not only did the judge not show for your hearing today, but your W has extended an olive branch, heck it is more like an olive tree!
This is really a fantastic development! Take it slow, expect nothing and hope for the best. Be careful not to over do it. Just take it slow!
Good, stick to your game plan. You have a lot of people rooting for you.
Maybe I should write a letter. Could you post the template?
Lol me too! Here's hoping things go well for you - first good thing I've heard (ok, read) all afternoon!
Crimson...this is such great news....you have to go to the counselor with her!!!!! Pls stay calm and don't overwhelm her. This is your chance to let her speak, listen with all your heart and show her the strong loving man you are. This is such good news. I'm praying for you and your family. Keep all you have learned in the forefront.
Crimson - be cool a about this but I think your ltr, the judge no show, and your W reaching out might mean she is ready to look back to you. now is the time to be cool and let your heart lead. Basically what everyone has been saying for days.....
I fully plan on going! I am still somewhat in shock and not getting too far ahead of myself. Baby steps. That said......deep, deep, deep in the inner recesses of my soul, yeah.......there is a tiny little happy dance going on. More like a happy "shuffle".....hoping to be a dance.
I am setting low expectations.......gonna take it slow......and keep working on me for d@mn sure.
Still in disbelief. This did NOT seem like a possibility 2 days ago.
Crimson
Put it in Gods hands bud!
Very, very stoked for ya bro!! Keep it up.
So I drifted in and out of sleep in a mild state of disbelief all night. It seems like it is possible that I am transitioning *maybe* out of one phase of this and into another. The "talking" phase. I need help, because what I am beginning to see is that she is expressing doubts in my sincerity and I don't really know the best way to handle or reassure. I received the following messages from her this morning on the drive in to work:
"I would like to know why it took my leaving for you to 'get it' "
"I am also suspicious of the timing of your letter. Why now?"
I periodically glance at the "piecing" board and pretty much believe there is trust that needs to be gained back somehow (consistency in words AND actions??) - I think it is just now hitting me that IF I am entering this stage (big IF) this is not going to be easy.
I am prepared to answer both of her questions. The "why did it take me leaving" issue has come up and I DO owe her a response on that - I think I will write that one as well (much, much, much shorter letter). As for the "why now" question....what do you say, you know?
Crimson
What are YOUR answers to those questions ?
Honesty is your best friend here.
It appears that you had to try all of the wrong things in order for you to learn the right things....
And the timing thing....
Well....
Other than it coincidentally happening yesterday...
What is your honest answer ???
"Do you still see same counselor?
Do you think it would be a good idea to do a joint session to process your letter. It is overwhelming to me."
And she didn't even have to see you face to face and have you look into her eyes.
That's even better! It was no
accident that the judge didn't show up yesterday.
She is torn about her decision now. You have have been shown a little crack in the door. She could go either way at this point.
It's a positive sign, Crimson. Just try not to take that sign as her saying she's giving you another chance. That's not what she's doing, yet. However, she is
interested in finding out more about that letter and just what those words really mean.
I know, you want to
DO something to put this on stronger grounds before she changes her mind, but you have to stay calm. She needs to feel that you are confident in the new "you", and IMO, showing patient and calmness will support this.
As for the timing:
It took me a long time to switch the focus from what is wrong with her to what is wrong with ME. Once I did that, I started to get better answers and more clarity. More importantly, I started finding SOLUTIONS for me and gaining the courage to follow through on them (GAL, etc.). Once I really thought through things from her perspective and started to connect dots, I got answers. The more answers I got, the more compelled I was to tell her what I was discovering and let her know what my part was in out meltdown. I felt I needed to let her know that I understood why she did what she did -regardless of the outcome. Then, she gave me a tiny window in which to do it - and I just let it all out. Everything that I had learned from introspection, from DR/DB - from other books I've read.
I think her suspicion on the timing stems from the fact that we are hitting the "rapids" in terms of D proceedings and I had to stroke my first spousal maint./child support check this week. My guess would be she thinks I am trying to say or do anything to NOT have to keep writing them. Anyone that has follwed my sitch knows that is just not the case.
As for why it took her leaving for me to "get it":
That is an easy one. I have said all along that once I looked inward it was plainly clear that something this painful and disruptive had to happen in order to knock me out of the track I was in. Otherwise, NOTHING would have forced me to look inward and admit that I had to change.....nothing. I was so stuck in my ways, my beliefs and my way of living that I had (unknowingly) grown immune to the input of others - esp. my W. I would have easily continued down the path I was on and never would have done the introspection needed to really identify what needed to change. To put it frankly, I had to lose everything and hit an emotional rock bottom.
That, friends, is the honest truth. I hope she is open to hearing it.
Crimson
And she didn't even have to see you face to face and have you look into her eyes.
That's even better! It was no
accident that the judge didn't show up yesterday.
She is torn about her decision now. You have have been shown a little crack in the door. She could go either way at this point.
It's a positive sign, Crimson. Just try not to take that sign as her saying she's giving you another chance. That's not what she's doing, yet. However, she is
interested in finding out more about that letter and just what those words really mean.
I know, you want to
DO something to put this on stronger grounds before she changes her mind, but you have to stay calm. She needs to feel that you are confident in the new "you", and IMO, showing patient and calmness will support this.
Hitting the "like" button on this one....
To put it frankly, I had to lose everything and hit an emotional rock bottom.
Crimson-
I can relate to your sitch.
Like you, I also needed to hit an emotional rock bottom.
I wish you the best.
Growing up is painful Crimson.
I am always reminded of a quote I love from Christopher Reeve (yes Superman) if you recall he had a spinal chord injury and has since passed on but this is what he said before he did:
"To be truly free in life takes either tragedy or courage. To my children I certainly recommend the latter."
Unforntunately for lots of us it takes tragedy.
But that tragedy can be either a rite of passage or semething that will break you.
Victim or Victorious?
Honesty works best Crimson.
If the words come from the depth of your soul they will echo with sincerity.
There is no way to lose here.It is all upside if you are honest with the dude in the mirror.
Just live it now.
Well put! I think I said this ^^^^ as well but not near as eloquently!!
Letter to my WAW on why it took her leaving for me to "get it".
"W-
I have owed you an answer to your question "why did it take me leaving for you to get it" I have thought about it for over a month now, and I can give you a brutally honest answer.
The truth is it absolutely required something this emotionally painful, this disruptive to knock me off of the path my life was on, force me to seek help, show me that I could be wrong, and make me honestly realize that I needed to change.
One of the books that I read said that people grow complacent in relationships and marriage because there is an unspoken assumption that the other person won't leave. Hence, bad habits and unintentional neglect begin. Well, that is basically what I did. I was even bold enough to INVITE you to leave. Well, you called "bullish*t" on me and left. Nothing I can say. I literally asked for it. I had no idea I was making things so joyless for you at the time. Like I said, I thought I was being the greatest husband ever. I never even dreamed I was guilty of all the things I pointed out in the letter I wrote. Again, I was giving YOU the definition of a "great" husband, when it needs to be the other way around.
I'll tell you the awful truth. If you would have stayed here when I was basically begging you to, if yo would have woken up on 9/12 and said "OK, let's try....", I never would have turned there focus on myself and started to fix what was broken. Had you stayed, I'm betting you would have seen changes for a most a month and then I would have slid back into my same pattern. It is both humiliating and painful for me to admit that nothing short of losing my wife and not seeing my son as much as I'd like to what what it took to open my eyes and mind. However, that is the sad, honest truth.
I didn't want you to leave and hate the fact that you are gone now, but if there was to be a chance of me waking up and realizing what makes a better husband and father -- this needed to happen just like it did. I needed to lose everything that mattered and hit the lowest emotional point of my life to realize exactly how unknowingly miserable I was making life for you. The "soft" approach didn't work. The sledge hammer did.
Finally, I owe you this - it has been painful, lonely, agonizing and sad for me - but I respect what you did and why. You saw into the future and visualized and unhappy, unfulfilled life with me and you decided you AND our son deserved better - and you were right. The person that I was becoming was not the person you needed. It wasn't even really the person I wanted to be. You made a bought decision and I know it wasn't something that you did "on a whim" or to hurt me. You did the right thing for you and our son and your future.
The Crimson that you left isn't the same one writing this letter. As I've said, these last four months have rocked me to the core and fundamentally changed how I view life, marriage and fatherhood. I am still learning, still evolving. I am a work in process. I have woken up and can't fall back asleep again. Thank you for helping me want to be a better man"
She wanted honest....I gave honest.
Crimson
PS...got an unsolicited text tonight: "I am grateful for your letter. I always knew the man you could be. I felt like such a failure in our marriage that I couldn't make you happy or see these things".
Sorry for the typos....^^^^^^
C
Nice letter, Crimson!
"PS...got an unsolicited text tonight: "I am grateful for your letter. I always knew the man you could be. I felt like such a failure in our marriage that I couldn't make you happy or see these things".
I really think things are moving in a positive direction for you. Continue to handle with care. I'm wishing you all the best!
Crimsom...if there was ever a time for you to answer her honestly, calmly and from the heart, this is it. She has opened the door for you to answer her again after your recent letter. Your draft letter/answer above is perfect.
Crimson....if ever there was a time for you to answer your W this is it. Be honest, calm and speak from the heart. She has opened a door wide open for you after your recent letter. She has turned back to you for understanding. You can do this.
I posted a story I read on an old thread on someone's thread but don't think it was this one. If it was, it bears repeating.
Think of this as trying to coax a squirrel to eat out of your hand. Any sudden movement or noise could scare her away, never to return.
I don't think I would send that letter right away. Not that it's not good, but if she has too much to process all at once it may be a negative. Give it a couple of days.
You must be a quivering bowl of jello.
WOW....there are no words..
You are a great example of what a man should be...
Ok, so theres a few words..:)
I like what's happening and most of the letter. I'd leave out the vision of the future she had without you...and imo it's a tad too long.
the sledgehammer paragraph seems like enough to me...but do what you will
b/c things are in transition.
Timing? Better late than never and yes, she wants to know you aren't doing it to stave off the divorce or at least not for financial reasons...
but that seems to be getting revealed...
Stay strong and stay on course Crimson...no backslides...keep expectations low so you don't get thrown off if she backs away
she's afraid...but she wants to believe in you.
I'm really pulling for you, Crimson! As a WAW let me just say, I would cut off my left arm to receive a letter like that. Keep it up, and in your IC session listen more than you talk. Sounds like you planned on that anyway.
You are sooo close brother. Keep it up - patience....
Crimson, we miss your updates. After all your activity here, we can't just go cold turkey.
Make something up, tell us what you had for brkfst!
LA - breakfast was two cups of coffee and 60mg of Prozac. That would not be as funny if it wasn't true.
So I dropped off one of S's toys and letter 2 this morning - the one adressing why it took her leaving for me to "wake up". She had already left for work as predicted, so just left them on porch.
As for the content and giving it to her in general, I would not have written it if she hadn't asked for an explanation 3 times basically. Clearly, she wanted my input on this and was not going to let it go. I think she will take it well - my guess is she already knows the content.
So now I find myself in an odd place. I have a combination of nerves, excitement and fear. I find myself wondering if she is making the gestures with the intent of CONTINUING to move forward with the D, or if she is truly having second thoughts. Either way, I have to prepare myself for both possibilities. I am waiting for the proverbial shoe to drop.
I will keep everyone posted. She has our S this weekend, so I will probably spend some time journaling - have a lot to get caught up on there.
Crimson
I'm really pulling for you, Crimson! As a WAW let me just say, I would cut off my left arm to receive a letter like that. Keep it up, and in your IC session listen more than you talk. Sounds like you planned on that anyway.
Heck, I'd cut off my left arm to be ASKED for one!!
Continuted good luck, Crimson!
Crimson - I am so glad for you. Stick to what you have learned about yourself and you cannot do wrong. Keep cool...easy for me to say isn't it?
No more letters! That's over-kill. You felt like you needed to do something, remember?
would not have written it if she hadn't asked for an explanation 3 times basically.
Key word in that statement is "basically"
What happened to a joint meeting with your C?
That was the second and final letter. Not a big fan of having to write everything, per se. However, given the fact that we have not had a face to face R talk since September, trust me when I say that it was the best way to re-start the discussion. No ideal, but for sure the best.
We are schedule for 4:30 on Tuesday with MC. Nervous, but looking forward to it. Ironically, it was in her waiting room full of books that I first saw the DR book. I remember reading the back cover and having a "yeah, right" reaction to it. Little did I know it would stick with me until I was ready to be open to it and lead me right here.
She texted this morning saying that S was up crying at 4 am. Separation anxiety. Unlike him. He just wanted w to play with him or let him.
Crimson.
Crimson - you and her going to the MC is huge! With your Newfound strengths and understanding and her searching for answers you and her could really start steps towards a new upgraded M.
At the MC let her see the changes in you....nothing forced...but the new place you now live at. Let her talk....listen ....be calm...be a provlem solver and seek to understand...let her see that from now on she and son comes first.
You and your path to growth here is so impressive.
C- Very excited for you! Good luck with whatever comes next. It will still probably be a long path so keep the patience going but walk the path with hope!
So what do I do in IC if W gets angry? Or starts crying? My overall plan is to just sit back and listen and stay way the hell out of defensive mode. Nervous.....just trying to prepare.
Crimson
Seems to me you're on the right track with staying out of defensive mode - let her get it out, if in anger or hurt she says hurtful things be mindful of the emotional place she's in and don't take it personally, try to listen to what she's ACTUALLY trying to say beneath all that and let the counselor help draw that out
I agree with Kolja, your IC should be there to make the env't safe for both of you. Let him/her do the work. You are there to listen and validate. 25 wrote some mantras on another thread that I can;t find right now: Something like, I don;t remember it that way but I'm sorry you were hurt and If I had it to do over, I would do it very differently.
Of course you won't want to wear these out and sound like a robot.
Have you thought how the meaning of your thread name has changed?
So what do I do in IC if W gets angry? Or starts crying? My overall plan is to just sit back and listen and stay way the hell out of defensive mode. Nervous.....just trying to prepare.
Crimson
1) thank God she's not indifferent, b/c it means at some level, she still cares...
2) take a breath before you say ANYTHING, and think out how your tone MUST be different.
The content is lost, often totally, if delivered in a way that SOUNDS like anger or frustration on your end. Be the Dalai Lama if you have to...or at least, sound like him.
3) if she revises things too much -- for you--say "Wow, w, I sure don't recall it that way but I'm sorry you were upset/hurt by that."
4) IF she makes a valid complaint, partially or fully, and you have regrets
you say "Yes w, I'm sorry for that. IF I had it to do all over again, there are a Lot of things I'd do differently."
Neither answer escalates and both validate her perception without you being a doormat. I sometimes leave out the "I'm sorry" for others b/c they are too beaten down already
but in your sitch since it IS a message you want her to get, I might leave that in...
You must get across your ability to change AND that change has already started. The goal is her learning to accept that. And read that letter from a WAW to her h to recall things from your w's perception...(Did I post it to you already? Let me know)
5) If she says something you simply have no answer for, you can say, "I bet there's a perfect response to that, but it just escapes me at the moment...I promise to ponder it carefully."
IF she asks how YOU feel, make sure you know if she's asking about how you feel for her, or about yourself. Then keep it simple.
((( )))
I like everything 25 posted above. My initial thought when I read your questions was, "
If your W cries or gets angry, it's the job of the counselor to manage that and your job to listen unless asked a question."
1) thank God she's not indifferent, b/c it means at some level, she still cares...
I wanted to touch on the above because it can be difficult in some situations.
When a spouse is on the roller coaster and sharing their feelings (either overtly or unintentionally), we
know they are not indifferent. Even if that indifference is not directed specifically at the sitch.
In some instances, it's very hard to tell if a spouse is indifferent. My W very rarely shows any type of emotion other than that of normal engagement.
The most recent was her indication that she would not (could not; possibly intended to be interpreted as could not afford) want to pay to to file the D papers, now that the SA is completed. She closed by saying, "We'll have to think about it."
I can't mind read so I have no idea how indifferent she really is. What I can be sure about, though... is a person who wants to D would not complain about the cost of filing to their spouse as though it is some impossible hurdle, but would rather say nothing and simply plan to get the money together and file once the resources are available.
As in purgatory's thread where she indicates looking for the small (1%) positives... if my W really was indifferent and had no negative emotional investment in D, she could find the money to afford to D.
So, Crimson... consider yourself lucky and look for the positive IF your W is emotional during the counseling session...
good points KD...
and Crimson--fyi, I read over my journals from 2005 recently. (God what a mistake...mostly)
I got mad all over again at my h!!
But the Point is, I DID believe a lot of what I said then...and now I don't...
or it doesn't matter as much to me now...So nothing is written in stone.
Don't react to ALL the words that come out of her mouth. The one thing we "know" is that she's confused...she wants to process this.
MAYBE (and I hope this) she wants a 3rd party to make her feel safer...to help her believe in your changes.
Maybe the c will ask You questions...not just her.
We know your overall goal is restoring your m to a better one than before. We know. The old m is dead and good riddance...
But for this counselling session, set other goals...like "not losing my temper"
or "not interrupting w"...."not correcting her perception or defending myself"...
make sense?
Now that I know for certain that my wife isn't going to leave me my advice is try not to do too much talking. She will probably test you like my wife because she won't believe the things you wrote in the letter. I know she wants to believe but she will have her walls up that is why she wants the counselor there.
I did a lot of defending myself at the marriage counseling sessions and that is the last thing your wife wants to hear.
She wants to know your changes are real.
Every session I have gone through I always feel beat up and end up being the one that wants out of the marriage. After I have time to think about the things she brings up and really listen and try to see it from her perspective I calm down and try to figure out what she was missing from me and work on that.
After a few sessions I figured out the less I said the better. Not sure if its the right way but my wife is very stubborn and I know it will take time before she is 100% committed again. Just don't know how much time, lol.
Also don't answer anything until you have really thought it through. I'm really good at just acting like a know it all and makes my wife feel stupid.
Good luck, hopefully she gives you another chance and you can then show her the great guy you have become.
Thanks all for the IC advice. I assure you, I will take all of it. To summarize: zip it, listen, NEVER interrupt, validate, stay calm and fairly unemotional.
So here's today's oddball Crimson/W update:
Today was my day to pick up son. I was out running errands this afternoon and my wife asked if I wanted to meet at this park by the house at 4:30. There is a quarter mile paved circular walkway there and she said he wanted to show me his "bike" (little radio flyer 3-wheeler that I can steer). I agreed and at about 4:15 I got a note from my W saying they were already there and I can come by whenever I was ready. I hopped in the car and headed over. I parked next to her and saw them walking up to the playground about 75 yards in front of me. S saw me and excitedly exclaimed "DADDY!! DADDY!!" - gotta tell you, that melts my heart. He hopped off of his little bike and ran straight to me - big spinning hug.
So, I was expecting W to do the "hand-off-and-run", but she kept walking with me and S as I pushed his bike. Again, it felt like we were a family and I felt sooooo stinking good in that moment. We walked around the paved track of the park just talking....she was telling me that he suddenly likes watching Fat Albert (odd) and we just kinda shared stories about him showing signs of the terrible twos. It was pleasant - and felt like I was talking to an old friend I hadn't seen in months (of course, she looked beautiful). We walked to the playground equipment - well, rather I chased after son saying "gonna get you!" while he ran from me and squealed in pure delight.
I walked around the playground equipment with him and my W, still talking and watching S. So I climbed up a little staircase with him to a slide and asked W some meaningless question and she gave an odd monosyllabic response. She was walking away from me and S and I could tell something was sorta bothering her. It was a very cloudy day, but I saw her put her sunglasses on - she was trying to hide tears. She walked to get his bike and S and I climbed down the stairs. I could tell the change in her affect for sure. But she still talked, and was pleasant.
We headed back to our cars in the parking lot and said our goodbyes. I gave her the old car charger and wall charger for my now-replaced BlackBerry. I could see her suppressing her sadness. I held S and said "say bye-bye mommy". Of course he did and she gave him a little kiss. She turned away and got into her car. I loaded S into his seat in my car. I turned around to see my W turning out of the park and onto the main street heading home. I am pretty sure I saw her wiping away tears.
In that moment, my heart broke for her and I didn't want her to be away from our S because I know how awful it feels and I always tear up when I drop him off with her. It just feels bad to see her hurt....it feels bad for us to be apart and not with our son. Being together with the three of us laughing, playing and talking just felt so uplifting.....no fights....no D talk....just the three of us living again. I would do almost anything to have that back.
So then, my head starts screwing with me and searching for answers....."well, Crimson, maybe she was crying because she realizes she doesn't love you anymore" - and so on. Ridiculous mind-reading, I know. But my head always goes to the worst possible circumstance for me....and that would be it.
The whole incident makes me nervous and apprehensive about the pending MC session (I actually bought new pants and a new shirt for it....crazy, I know). I know I might be at the beginning of a new phase with her - but my heart wants it to be reconciliation and not "acceptance of separation and divorce". *SIGH* I love and miss my family.
Don't know how to read today's interaction. Kinda glad she suggested the park - she could have just dropped him at the house and this gave us some time to interact. I was happy about that. I just wonder what she was crying about and why....I know, I know....get out of her head.
Crimson
By the way....I will open "Part 7" for replies before this gets locked.
Crimson