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W told me she is done & doesn't love me anymore-P1

Well I survived Christmas. I got my S for 2 hours on Christmas Eve to take him to my Grandma's house to get my S present and play with his cousins. My W asked me to bring him to her dad's house which was awkward for me but did it with no problem. I got my S for the 2nd half of the day on Christmas and we opened presents at my parents house so they could take pics for me. The rest of my siblings came over for the rest of the evening with their kids and we had a great time together.

The next day my W asked what my S and I are doing. I said letting our S play with all his new toys. She asked if she could come over to see him which I said sure. I found it funny she wants to come over the day after Christmas but not do Christmas morning. More of the weird actions of a WAW. She stayed about 45mins and tells me she is moving to another apartment type place of another friend who is building it at their house. I told her ok and asked her about calling the counselor. She asked me to email the contact info which I did the next day. My W indicated she would need more kitchen stuff which I said ok. We discussed New Years plans which apparently she is going to Tahoe which sounds like she will be partying but oh well.

My BIL informed me that my W freaked out on him last Saturday to point that he was ready to leave their dad's house because my W couldn't take a joke. He texted me that he experienced what you must have have been experience for quite sometime. I just agreed as my W is always angry it seems.

I'm waiting for my W to call the counselor at this point. I'm not sure what she is afraid of about calling the counselor. I think she means that the counselor will force her to do things she doesn't want to do I guess, who knows. I will just keep trucking on I guess. Not sure how much longer I can keep doing this as I feel stick in neutral forever.
Hi Snowman,

I just read through your other thread, and I only have one piece of advice for you.

You need to detatch!

Your W is pulling away from you. She is seeking outside help (counceling), and you are not involved in that process.

She's on an emotional roller coaster right now, and obviously doesn't want your input. There's nothing you can do to influence her.

Sorry, my friend, but at this point, there's nothing you can do except to concentrate on yourself. I know it bites, but you have to go with the flow.

Try not to analyze things too much. I know that it's not easy, but you're driving yourself nuts with speculation.

Instead of "waiting for my W to call the counselor" work on something you CAN control. I.e.: work on YOU!

Five years ago, your W fell in love with you. She has forgotten why she fell in love with you.

Without pushing it on her, remind yourself what it is she fell in love with you. I bet some of those things have kinda slid away. Maybe you can come up with some 180's to bring them back.

But as you turn these things around, bear in mind that you absolutely should not put any pressure on her. If she senses that you're making any changes to get her back, her reaction will not be the one you're looking for.
I have been working on me. I have been the best father to my S that I can be. I have spent as much time as possible with him.

I will brainstorm on the 180's to think of some more.

I will say I'm growing very tired of this and not sure how much longer I can go or want to go.

My anniversary is on January 4th and I'm not sure what I should be doing there. Should I do anything or not?

It's hard not to backslide when your W continues to drive you crazy by being so erratic. I have been working on detaching but the more I do the more I want a D.

I for sure need to not analyze so much especially sense I'm an analytical person. That is hard when so many know about us since it is hard to hide a missing W.

I will do some thinking on the why she fell in love with me back then but I will say things and circumstances have definitely changed not just during this ordeal.

This situation is wearing me out. I want to be able to relax just once and enjoy myself which is part of the detaching I know. Sometimes I just feel like a pacifist that tip toeing around hoping not to anger the beast and wonder to myself why do I have to live like this. It's like you have to walk on water for my W or something. Its all just backwards which I know is typical from all the posts I have read around her. Sorry just venting I guess.
Sorry to hear you're wearing out, Snowman. It's terribly wearing!

It's hard to try to do the right things without analyzing. Catch-22!

FWIW, I concentrate almost entirely on my autistic son. Add being the primary bread winner, and a demanding job, the GAL technique is virtually out of the question for me.

But those two things do keep my mind occupied, and stop me from dwelling on my M.

Personally, I don't try to hide the fact that I miss my W. I do, however avoid making an issue of it. I do avoid talking about it, even to friends. And I absolutely stopped analyzing the why's and the wherefores.

I find that my W has twisted so many things around in her analysis of me (including some very hurtful help from a councelor), that I can only conclude that if I analyse W, I'll very likely be wrong too.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
My anniversary is on January 4th and I'm not sure what I should be doing there. Should I do anything or not?
That’s a tricky one. Despite my comments to detach and stop second-guessing your W, this is a situation where you have to deviate from the course a bit. My best advice is to try to figure out how it would be received by your W. If you do decide to do something, keep it small. You really can’t afford to do anything that would be perceived as pursuing.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
I will do some thinking on the why she fell in love with me back then but I will say things and circumstances have definitely changed not just during this ordeal.
Yep. It’s a moving target, and not just post-bomb. When considering 180’s, you have to consider that it cannot smell of persuit. Some safer 180’s might include things you did outside of your R that may have attracted W to you. Maybe activities that you already engaged in, and your W joined later?
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Its all just backwards which I know is typical from all the posts I have read around her. Sorry just venting I guess.

Venting is one of the reasons for this board. I’m sure you’ve heard it before, but it’s better to vent here than to W!
Well my W may be cracking. We have a very good text chat about us (I think text is our medium of choice for now). She acutally said she missed me and us. She also said she was serious about what she said about not giving up on us. This all started because I received a L solicitation saying according to the state court records I am a respondent in a divorce proceeding. I text my W about it and said she had not talked to her L for 2+ weeks but she would call to see what is up. From this the conversation opened up some true feelings and honesty. I know my W was in there somewhere.

The next day we ended up doing breakfast together with my son. It was a little awkward but good. I texted her again today to ask about the lawyer thing and she said she left a message with her L to see what is going on as she had told the L to put everything on hold weeks ago. L want their money so I would not be surprised if the L pulled the trigger.

Tomorrow is our 6th anniversary so I'm having some flowers delivered to her work. I asked her if she would be open to dinner or something tomorrow and she said yes. I asked her about doing it without our S and she is still thinking about it. One way or another we are going. She is also going to call the counselor even though she was suppose to today. We will see.

I know I need to be careful and not push or pressure but I was not just going to let my anniversary go by without doing something. I will envision the best outcome and hope for the best. If we start to work on our R it will take time but will be worth it.

I'm going on a trip to Hawaii with my family so I told her about it as I won't be taking my S so I wanted her to know in advance and my W informed me she is going on a trip to London which was very surprising to say the least. Her Grandma is paying for her plan ticket and she is going with 2 girlfriends. I must say I'm hurt a little bit that she is going on one of her dream trips without me but there is nothing I can do about it now so I will just embrace it I guess. My W also informed me she partied until 5am in the morning for New Years which was somewhat shocking considering I don't recall he doing that before in the past or before our M. Not sure what that's about but it seems out of character again for her.

Anyway I will keep you all posted. Pray and hope the best for me as I have been fighting the good fight for some progress for a long time it seems like.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
She acutally said she missed me and us. She also said she was serious about what she said about not giving up on us.
That's a very positive sign, Snowman.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
I know I need to be careful and not push or pressure but I was not just going to let my anniversary go by without doing something.
Very true. I think you've got a pretty good handle on things. Most of us are up against a brick wall, so GAL and LRT can be helpful. I think you're in a little better place. Your W seems to be much more receptive than most.

There was an expression going around the boards a few years back....

slowlee slowlee....

That's the way to go.

Let your W set the pace.
I gave my W flowers for our anniversary and of course she was appreciative but frustrated at the same time. She read more into than it was but in the end it sparked a candid conversation starting with the flowers and going into more detail about things. I explained that I sent the flowers because wanted to because I didn't want our anniversary go go by with doing something. I did it because I wanted to and out of the goodness of my heart. i had no alternative motive. She was somewhat receptive of that but wanted to bring up the past about flowers like I never gave them to her but I did.

From there the conversation went into explain that I didn't want to live like this anymore and asking what she was afraid or feared. She said she would write it down in an email for me and I said that would be great. I understood her fears and told her I have my own as well but I was not going to act out of fear anymore. I told her I wanted hones conversations and if there was questions about communication through email or text that she should please call me. Some other things were said and it was all very candid and honest which was nice for a change.

Now my W and I are meeting for dinner tomorrow to discuss things. She is still scared or afraid of whatever when it comes to committing on working on our R or going to marriage counseling. I'm very interested to hear what she has to say. I know I need to be very careful at this point but at the same token my walking on eggshells this whole time got me no where that I see until I was ready to move on. She is not sure what she wants to do but man I just feel this can't go much longer for the either of us because it is just making life bad.

What advice do people have for me tomorrow for my dinner with my W? I don't have any expectations and I still want to take it slow by all means by I do want to take it in one direction or another.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Now my W and I are meeting for dinner tomorrow to discuss things. She is still scared or afraid of whatever when it comes to committing on working on our R or going to marriage counseling. I'm very interested to hear what she has to say. I know I need to be very careful at this point but at the same token my walking on eggshells this whole time got me no where that I see until I was ready to move on. She is not sure what she wants to do but man I just feel this can't go much longer for the either of us because it is just making life bad.

What advice do people have for me tomorrow for my dinner with my W? I don't have any expectations and I still want to take it slow by all means by I do want to take it in one direction or another.


I’m going to go out on a limb here. Please take what I have to say with the appropriate grain of salt.

R talks are mostly contradicted by DB. But IMHO, there’s still a place for them when the S is still somewhat receptive as seems to be the case with your W. I think that when people fear C, it’s because they’re afraid that the C will side with the other person. However, I also think that if you get a good C who will try to facilitate improvement in your R without pointing fingers, it can be very helpful. I’m not speaking from experience here. My W never wanted couples C, and her individual C encouraged her to walk away.

All that being said, you’ve committed to a R talk, so you can’t back out now without seeming to cop out. When you meet with her, just tell her that you want to understand her issues, and take corrective action. Tell her that you don’t want C so you can “win”, but rather to have someone who can help you understand her issues so that you can take corrective action.

Don't ask for commitment to work on your R. Just give her your commitment that you will.

That’s what you want, right?

And above all... Do not revert to begging, whining, etc. Just lay it all out calmly.

Best of luck, Snowman.
Well, we have our dinner last Friday and it was less then satisfactory. She said she wanted to talk but we go and she just chit chats about stuff about work, travel, and other stuff but never brings up R talk until finally I asked a question about how she feels about us.
W: She responded with I pretty much feel the same as I have the whole time.
Me: I said can I ask why?
W: I just do. I will write my feelings down for you (She has said that numerous time with no result).
At this point I'm confused because of all the other stuff she has said by text to me the week earlier and now I'm confused and it seems that she has gone cold again or just shuts down when she gets in front of me.

Me: I asked her again if she was going to call the C?
W: Claims yet again she has been so busy at work that she has not had time (what a lame excuse).
Me: I ask what she is afraid of calling the counselor?
W: I'm not afraid I'm just busy. Maybe me not calling is saying something.
Me: I want to go to counseling so we can talk about this stuff and understand our issues. The counselor is not going to force you or me to do anything we don't want to.
Me: I would like to know what you want to do about counseling next week as you have been promising for weeks you will call. This has been going on for 6 months and should be enough time to figure out.
W: I know, I will think about it this weekend and let you know.
Me: I appreciate that. This is your decision as I have expressed my willingness to work on this and like to hold R talks for the counselor.

There was probably some other chit chat but that was the jist of it. She just wants to sit on the white picket fence forever and flip flop on things. This can't go on forever.

I check our cell records again and she is back to texting and calling guys so apparently she is not done with them. Man this is getting old. I want to text the one guy and tell him to cut it out especially since he is part of the same religion as me and works for the church who would fire him if they knew what he is doing.

Anyway, I guess I'm still on the ride but I don't want to stay on much longer like this.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Anyway, I guess I'm still on the ride but I don't want to stay on much longer like this.

Hi Snowman,

I just wanted to point out to you that you're in hot pursuit. Have you read DB and/or DR? The more you push, the more she's gonna pull away. It's human nature.

You're repeatedly asking her to explain herself, to go to C, checking cell records...

If you don't want to stay on much longer like this, then you have to change "this." And you cannot change her

You can only change your R by changing your interactions with your W.

Your motto should be "change my marriage by changing myself."

Just my opinion, but if you keep on doing more of the same, you can expect more of the same from your W.

Good luck, Snowman!
Don't know if you're taking in what people are posting to you, but I'll give it another shot.

The reason why she's not moving and you're not moving is because of your expectations again and mindreading (which stems from your expectations). Sometimes it makes you come across as a strong personality, which isn't the best way to gain your W's trust. She has to feel that you're not going to throw things back in her face. You haven't, but I'm sure that's a vibe she feels since it comes across in your posts.

Case in point:
"Well, we have our dinner last Friday and it was less then satisfactory. "

It wasn't satisfactory to YOU. Maybe it was to her. It could have been a very positive step forward until you pushed the R talk. See you had two choices at that point: 1) Enjoy the time you had alone together, or 2) Push the issue that she's been shy about. You chose the latter.

"She just wants to sit on the white picket fence forever and flip flop on things. "

No she doesn't. That's your interpretation.

IMHO, you just need to have fun with her. Get her to relax so she's not so guarded around you. It's obvious from what you've posted about her that she feels scared. If you want to save your M, you have to make he feel safe, which is the number one need of women from men.

Compassion and understanding might get you further than pushing. Maybe not as fast as you would like it to, but enough to get the ball rolling.
Andy,

I have read it and had been doing the LRT for quite sometime. Then she opened up and starting saying stuff about our R like she wanted to work on it. I know I should not be in pursuit or whatever but when she said she wanted to talk that usually means a person wants to talk. The only expectation I had was that she would talk and no other.

I feel like she is playing games with me by saying that stuff she did by text earlier and then saying different when she talks. I have not pressured and pursue for quite sometime until she acted like she wanted to. I know I did some backsliding but man this is crazy.

Most people when they make a promise to do something they do it. If I say I promise to call someone I do it. I don't sweep it under the rug like it doesn't matter and ignore like it will go away. I know I'm venting right now and frustrated but geez!

Should I stop all talks of counseling? Should I just continue allowing her to not make a decision forever? I will try to get back on track but I don't want to drag this thing through 2012 as well.

I don't even know if saying something like good luck at school is allowed at this point. I try so hard to not have expectations but I don't want to live like this forever. If she truly doesn't want to work on our R I would like to know. I will continue working on me but I don't think she really cares. She is more worried about her and the OM(s). Feeling like a door mat I have to say.
Hi Snowman,

I understand what you're saying. Sorry if my last post sounded a bit terse, but it just sounded like things were reverting to the same-old same-old.

I think MrBond has a good point, though. You are listening to your W's words, and then (of course), interpreting them literally. The kicker is, that the best politician in the world can't think so fast that you can take him/her at their word all of the time.

Allow me to illustrate...

Me: I asked her again if she was going to call the C?
W: Claims yet again she has been so busy at work that she has not had time (what a lame excuse).

If she had time to think, maybe she would have come up with a different answer. Or, maybe she would have phrased it differently.

Me: I ask what she is afraid of calling the counselor?
W: I'm not afraid I'm just busy. Maybe me not calling is saying something.

She has already told you this. Put yourself in her shoes... Does it sound like her H is listening to her?

Me: I want to go to counseling so we can talk about this stuff and understand our issues. The counselor is not going to force you or me to do anything we don't want to.
Me: I would like to know what you want to do about counseling next week as you have been promising for weeks you will call. This has been going on for 6 months and should be enough time to figure out.
W: I know, I will think about it this weekend and let you know.

You kinda backed her into a corner, wouldn't you say?


I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking at what you posted (didn't I just suggest you stop doing that to your W? wink ), but just trying to show you what I'm talking about.

A WAW feels trapped. That's why she wants to walk. You have to avoid making her feel even more trapped, y'know?
Andy,

Thanks for you great advice and perspective. Its getting hard to be patient or not pressure as my family and even her own mother wants me to call her bluff so to speak and put pressure on.

My wife is basically having her cake and eating it to with life. She is enjoying her single lifestyle of partying, drinking(which didn't do before), and planning trips all with a good use of credit cards that we are all sure of. Everyone asks me how she can afford this and she can't. Many have said she needs to grow up and I can't disagree.

I want to believe she will choose to come back from the aliens that abducted her but no one seems to think so.

I will not trap her in corners with questions but I will not go months more sitting in limbo waiting for a person that acts like a teenager and not deciding to address the problems that are not going away. That I will commit that I will not do.

I want to be supportive and open to things but not while she is playing games with me and choosing her new lifestyle over her family. She doesn't even respect our agreement on joint expenses and our joint account for them. Meanwhile she books a trip but use the account for a non-joint expense. This is getting old and the childish comments on FB about drinking, disrespect by going out with her friends on our anniversary after telling me she maybe wants to go to dinner with me and telling me she has to work late, and then posting about booking her half marathon trip when she has no money. The lying just never ends. Why should someone put up with this?
Hi Snowman,

Originally Posted By: Snowman
Its getting hard to be patient or not pressure as my family and even her own mother wants me to call her bluff so to speak and put pressure on.
yeah. It's hard. No argument there.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
My wife is basically having her cake and eating it to with life...
Many have said she needs to grow up and I can't disagree.
Nope. I don't disagree either.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
I want to believe she will choose to come back from the aliens that abducted her but no one seems to think so.
I wish I could tell you that she'll wake up and smell the coffee, but unfortunately, I don't have a christal ball. I don't know your W, and frankly, I don't even think her family and friends do at this point.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
I will not trap her in corners with questions but I will not go months more sitting in limbo waiting for a person that acts like a teenager and not deciding to address the problems that are not going away. That I will commit that I will not do.
That's the balance you have to find. DB is not about being a doormat. It's about taking the high road without letting her trample on you.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
I want to be supportive and open to things but not while she is playing games with me and choosing her new lifestyle over her family. She doesn't even respect our agreement on joint expenses and our joint account for them. Meanwhile she books a trip but use the account for a non-joint expense. This is getting old and the childish comments on FB about drinking, disrespect by going out with her friends on our anniversary after telling me she maybe wants to go to dinner with me and telling me she has to work late, and then posting about booking her half marathon trip when she has no money. The lying just never ends. Why should someone put up with this?
You shouldn't have to put up with this. The real question is what do you do about it. Unfortunately, when ones spouse feels s/he has a legitimate right to do whatever s/he wants, putting pressure on him/her to do otherwise only serves to pull you apart. catch-22.

I think the only way to be supportive without getting tromped on is to stuff our feelings (about childish comments on FB, etc.) but not to go so far as to financially support her antics. In other words, not to oppose her, but at the same time do not support things that are just not right. In other words, don't put pressure on her. Allow the pressure to come from the reality of what she's doing.

That begs the question... How do I do that?

Wish I had an answer to that question, Snowman. If there's a way to stop her from using family finances for her own use, it may be worth some consideration. However, I'm sure she'll find a way of saying that you're being controlling if you try to cut her financing.

It can be a very slow process that can push your patience to the limit, but I think that - in practical terms - the only way to get someone to understand the consequences of their actions is to let them see the consequences without trying to influence them yourself (either positively or negatively). I.e.: don't support or oppose.

Ya can't push on a string.
Originally Posted By: ANS
Hi Snowman,

Originally Posted By: Snowman
Its getting hard to be patient or not pressure as my family and even her own mother wants me to call her bluff so to speak and put pressure on.
yeah. It's hard. No argument there.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
My wife is basically having her cake and eating it to with life...
Many have said she needs to grow up and I can't disagree.
Nope. I don't disagree either.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
I want to believe she will choose to come back from the aliens that abducted her but no one seems to think so.
I wish I could tell you that she'll wake up and smell the coffee, but unfortunately, I don't have a christal ball. I don't know your W, and frankly, I don't even think her family and friends do at this point.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
I will not trap her in corners with questions but I will not go months more sitting in limbo waiting for a person that acts like a teenager and not deciding to address the problems that are not going away. That I will commit that I will not do.
That's the balance you have to find. DB is not about being a doormat. It's about taking the high road without letting her trample on you.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
I want to be supportive and open to things but not while she is playing games with me and choosing her new lifestyle over her family. She doesn't even respect our agreement on joint expenses and our joint account for them. Meanwhile she books a trip but use the account for a non-joint expense. This is getting old and the childish comments on FB about drinking, disrespect by going out with her friends on our anniversary after telling me she maybe wants to go to dinner with me and telling me she has to work late, and then posting about booking her half marathon trip when she has no money. The lying just never ends. Why should someone put up with this?
You shouldn't have to put up with this. The real question is what do you do about it. Unfortunately, when ones spouse feels s/he has a legitimate right to do whatever s/he wants, putting pressure on him/her to do otherwise only serves to pull you apart. catch-22.

I think the only way to be supportive without getting tromped on is to stuff our feelings (about childish comments on FB, etc.) but not to go so far as to financially support her antics. In other words, not to oppose her, but at the same time do not support things that are just not right. In other words, don't put pressure on her. Allow the pressure to come from the reality of what she's doing.

That begs the question... How do I do that?

Wish I had an answer to that question, Snowman. If there's a way to stop her from using family finances for her own use, it may be worth some consideration. However, I'm sure she'll find a way of saying that you're being controlling if you try to cut her financing.

It can be a very slow process that can push your patience to the limit, but I think that - in practical terms - the only way to get someone to understand the consequences of their actions is to let them see the consequences without trying to influence them yourself (either positively or negatively). I.e.: don't support or oppose.

Ya can't push on a string.


Disagree. It's true that Snowman can't stop his wife from running away from their marriage, but there's also absolutely NO REASON why Snowman must finance her flight.

It would be wise to separate your finances -- including a legal agreement -- while she is in her current wayward/runaway wife mindset. Talk to a good family law attorney, and find out what your rights and responsibilities are here.


Starsky
Mr. Bond I somehow didn't even see your post before I replied to Andy. I agree with what you have to say and I would like to just have fun with her but the intentions of the dinner was to talk about us as she even said lets go to dinner and talk. Apparently she really didn't want to do that but I'm not a mind reader as you have pointed out numerous times. I would like my W to feel safe but she has mad it way hard to do so and I think she knows it. She didn't even dare to go to my sisters house to pick up my S. This is the sister and BIL that she wanted to meet with months ago to talk about things.

Do you think I should go back to no contact unless she initiates it?

As far as finances, I'm pretty much paying for everything that is a joint expense now since she has been such a flake on contributing to paying for anything like auto insurance, cell phone, or other joint things. she kicked me off her health insurance without really telling me until I asked her about it because it was open enrollment. I'm just going to switch most the bills to pay out of my account and stop contributing to the joint account. That will remedy that.

On top of all this she had told her lawyer to file in earlier December but the L never did anything for weeks so she thought the L had stopped. Then in the 1st week of January I get a solicitation from a random lawyer saying that according to the state court records I'm a respondent in a divorce proceeding and I should call them to use their service. I texted her about it and she said she was not sure. A week later she confirmed that the L had filed. As you can imagine I was frustrated as she is texting saying stuff about wanting to work on it and missing us but she filed. This is the games I refer to. At this point I'm not sure were we stand but I have not been given papers but saying you didn't know your lawyer was going to file is silly!

Some days I can live without even thinking about it and do pretty wells and other days it just gets to me. I pretty much feel divorced already the way my life has been. I don't know where to go from here???
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Disagree. It's true that Snowman can't stop his wife from running away from their marriage, but there's also absolutely NO REASON why Snowman must finance her flight.
Not sure what you disagree with, Starsky. Maybe I didn't state it as forcefully as you, but I think we agree on this point.
Originally Posted By: ANS
If there's a way to stop her from using family finances for her own use, it may be worth some consideration. However, I'm sure she'll find a way of saying that you're being controlling if you try to cut her financing.
I'm not suggesting that Snoman "finances her flight." All I'm saying here is to expect a blowout if he makes a move on the finances.

Originally Posted By: ANS
If there's a way to stop her from using family finances for her own use, it may be worth some consideration. However, I'm sure she'll find a way of saying that you're being controlling if you try to cut her financing.
I'm not suggesting that Snoman "finances her flight." All I'm saying here is to expect a blowout if he makes a move on the finances. [/quote]

What we're disagreeing on is the degree to which he should factor in his wife's potential anger ("blowout") and accusations ("you're so controlling!") to his decision-making process.

I'm suggesting ZERO. smirk

He should focus on PROTECTING HIMSELF, his finances, and his family, and making sure he understands (and is following) his legal rights and responsibilities. His wayward wife's reactions to that I care not one whit, nor should he.


Starsky
my advice...until she stops with the other guys on her own there is no way she will see through the haze....she still believes the grass is greener on the other side
Man, I enjoying the discussion about me going back and forth on my wife smile. Anyway, update todays update of my W's complete lack of thought. She emails me saying urgent memo saying please send me an email saying that we each provide 50% support for our son and do it ASAP. She provides no explanation what this is for or anything so obviously I'm very hesitant and curious. I emailed her back but then decided to call her as this is ridiculous request with no explanation. I ask what this is all about and she says that she needs it for her school loan as they know we are separated. Gee that would have been nice if she explained that. She goes and gets more debt why we are separated, awesome. I called my lawyer about it and he said it would be in my favor because she could then not say I don't provide support and go for sole custody in a divorce. I will provide the letter to her but I think I will make her write it and sign it first and then have her send it to me for my signature so that I have a signed copy. CYA.

I sent my W an email earlier in the day talking about my S's success with potty training, our change in schedule so she can go to school, and said I hope school went well for her. Everything was very cordial so I think that went well. Its just this crazy email she sent me later about the letter request that got my blood boiling. She just doesn't get it, she requested W2's a while back, tax returns this week, and now this but if I ask for anything or answers I get nothing. Seems fair or logical to me, NOT. Oh well, I will continue to be the best man she has ever ditched.
Well, my wife informed me she has D papers to give me. I'm ready to move on as she has really just been playing games with me this whole time. I have learned about what I'm made of through this process. My W never did address her issues and is trying to take the easy way out. She is following in the footsteps of her father pretty much exactly. She never had much to say this entire time from the day she dropped the bomb back in July. She has major communication problems and I'm not sure she will ever tackle them. She left home at 18 to get away from problems, she always wants to change jobs due to problems, she shuts down to avoid problems, or she just gets rid of the problem so she doesn't have to address the problem. She will carry those problems into her next relationships. It is sad but true.

I through the divorce busting books and forum have identify many things that I have improved upon or I'm currently improving on. I really wanted to be the best person I could be and if she decided to ditch me then that's her fault or problem. I have bonded with much of my W's family as well as my own. I have learned great patience even though it was tested many times, and I learned what truly makes me happy or not. I still have much to go but I know that I have made great progress in my own self improvement quest which all that I can control.

Thanks for all the support here and keep it up as I know I still have some rough road ahead.
It's not over until it's over, snowman.

This is just a part of the process. A lot can happen before the papers are filed and processed.

In the mean time, this is the time when we learn just as much of what we are made. This is the time when we let go, lovingly. And where we also let go any anger, resentment, and bitterness that we might want to feel.

That stuff can kill us and certainly isn't healthy for us.

Instead of casting judgment on your W, work to find it in yourself to accept this is the path that she is choosing (at this time) and support her (but you don't have to help her or do it for her) in achieving her goals. Like you would help any friend achieve their goals.

It is up to you how you want to handle this. There continues to be no right or wrong. Just choices, dignity, and integrity.
What KD said...

WOW
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
It's not over until it's over, snowman.

This is just a part of the process. A lot can happen before the papers are filed and processed.

In the mean time, this is the time when we learn just as much of what we are made. This is the time when we let go, lovingly. And where we also let go any anger, resentment, and bitterness that we might want to feel.

That stuff can kill us and certainly isn't healthy for us.

Instead of casting judgment on your W, work to find it in yourself to accept this is the path that she is choosing (at this time) and support her (but you don't have to help her or do it for her) in achieving her goals. Like you would help any friend achieve their goals.

It is up to you how you want to handle this. There continues to be no right or wrong. Just choices, dignity, and integrity.




^^^^^^^

Nice Kaffe, very nice
This may be a moot point, but I stand by what I and the others have been telling you. You may feel you have changed, but the one glaring thing in your posts that you have not seemed to change is you EXPECTATIONS.

The expectations have caused you to sound a little arrogant rather than compassionate. If that tone comes through in your posts, then I can imagine they might be sneaking out of your conversations with your W.

Case in point:

"I'm ready to move on as she has really just been playing games with me this whole time."

She HASN'T been playing games with you. From the way you've described her, she sounds like a woman in pain and is just trying to find A direction in life. You have/had the choice to lead that or push it away.

Her texting the other guys is a security blanket for her. She needed that safety net because it sounded like she was afraid to get back with you and that you might be judgemental, etc. Believe me it comes across in your posts.

"She is following in the footsteps of her father pretty much exactly. She never had much to say this entire time from the day she dropped the bomb back in July. She has major communication problems and I'm not sure she will ever tackle them. She left home at 18 to get away from problems, she always wants to change jobs due to problems, she shuts down to avoid problems, or she just gets rid of the problem so she doesn't have to address the problem. She will carry those problems into her next relationships."

If you understood all these things about her, then you could have worked your way around these obstacles. Sometimes going around something and approaching it a different way works much better than hammering at it.

"if she decided to ditch me then that's her fault or problem."

Same here. You see her leaving as her 'problem'. She doesn't want a problem. She wants a solution.

"I learned what truly makes me happy or not."

Nothing in life "makes you" feel happy nor is it their job to make you happy. You just make the decision to BE HAPPY that's all it takes.

Imagine your W has this wall up. You keep battering at it with talks of R, how you stand, etc. This just makes her fortify the walls even stronger. So rather than doing the same thing, try looking for holes in the wall that will weaken it. Find enough holes and the wall breaks.

It's hard and takes patience and no expectations.
Thanks for all your replies they are very helpful. I just had dinner with my W's brother and wife. It was an enjoyable time and I miss hanging out with them but they didn't have anything good to say about my W. She continues to drink, party, spend money, and live with no cares in the world. I will say if I have not said this before about my W's family is that alcoholism runs in the family and I have seen it first hand. Her Grandma literally drinks herself to sleep every night. Her father drinks everyday and is an angry drunk that struggles to keep a job. Her brother in another state is a violent drunk that was recently thrown in jail for an altercation that happen with his girlfriend and now their is my W that is on the same path. My W seems to only care about when she is going to drink, party, or go on a trip. I have very low tolerance for drinking as I have seen it cause many bad things in the lives of the people around me. My mother had a father who was a drunk that beat her mother for many years. I had a good neighbor who was hit by a drunk driver and was nearly killed and is now not fully functional. I had a friend OD with alcohol and pills. I had another neighbor who was only in high school and was killed by a drunk driver. I guess I could go on but you get my point, I have little tolerance for it. To see my W who use to talk bad about her own father for drinking and is now the only family member she talks to is just plan weird. I do have the expectation that she give that crap up. If she chooses to do it then I don't want to be with her there is no budging on that.

She made the comment to her brother in conversation about their other brother that just got a girl pregnant that she is too young to have a kid which is a complete surprise to all as my W use to love kids, was a nanny, always wanted to be a stay home mom, and was talking about having another kid before all this happened. Is this a MLC or what?

Mr. Bond. I have only had a few R talks with my W this whole time. I will admit that at times I have pressured to understand or get an answer but I have not been arrogant with her and I feel that your judgement in that regard is wrong. I'm not really sure how I have had the choice to lead her if she has shut me and others out of her life. I have judged her in my mind but I have not passed my judgement on her the few times we have talked.

Her solution to the problem is divorcing me as she then doesn't have to address the problem. I want a solution and have tried to present paths to finding a solution but she doesn't want to take that path. I can't force her, coerce her, or otherwise make changes to get her there as I know can't control anyone but me. How do I go around a communication problem?

She filed D on me and lies about it, she kicks me off her insurance and doesn't tell me, she books a trip that I will have to watch my S for 2 weeks and she fails to tell me about it, she lies about what she is doing when we were suppose to talk, and on on. This is what I would call games.

I know it is my decision to be happy and that nothing makes you feel happy, crap I said that to my W myself. I decide to be happy no matter what she does. She has a wall up that no one can penetrate. Not through changes, communication, or any other form of interaction. I have knocked at the door but only she can let me in. I'm not saying I have done it perfect in my approach every time but I don't claim to be perfect although I feel like I do have to be to meet Mr. Bonds expectations.

It is sad when her own Mom and family doesn't want her to have custody because of her behavior. I don't make this stuff up for fun or something as it is far from it. I would like to have my W back to somewhat the person I know but she has chosen another path that I will not follow.

I have tried to not have expectations but I know I do as I guess thats just my human nature. I have done the best I can and I continue to do so. I will not ask for the D papers but if she gives them to me I'm not going to roll over and be a doormat in that process because my S is more important to me than all the other stuff and I have tried to do whats best for him by keeping the marriage together but if it does go apart I have to do whats best for us.
Snowman, I have no problem with you being intolerant to Alcohol.

My position is, guns don't kill people.

I know people who have driven and killed people, and they (the drivers) were sober.

I know people who are dinks. No alcohol necessary.

My parents were both alcoholics. I was on that path myself. I chose a different path and mostly abstain. My father is sober 5 years now. My mother is sober for about 2 months.

If your W was not drinking, but was still behaving the same way, would you tolerate that?

Not a judgment, simply a question. Because when alcohol is the EXCUSE, then we aren't holding people responsible. And regardless of the reason or excuse, we are all responsible for our choices.
Kaffe, I agree with your point and I would not tolerate her behavior even if she was not drinking. To add to the topic of her drinking she also takes headache pills that were developed as an antidepressant but are more effective for headaches. She takes these everyday. I ask my Dr what would happen if you were to drink excessively and takes these pills and he said ti could kill you. I know just drinking excessively could do that but adding the pills is just playing with fire. I addressed this with her months ago when i discovered she was taking this pill and she just handled it in a secret way by talking to her Dr and not telling anyone else.

I know bad things happen to sober people as well but her drinking is not helping by any means. I was stupid enough myself to try drinking with her for a few months and realized it was worthless and stopped immediately because it providing no positive benefit.

I ponder writing an honest letter to her about everything as I think it is the least intrusive or hostile way to approach her. I'm not sure of the content of the letter as I hesitate to write about certain things but on the same token I'm tired of being afraid of saying what I truly feel.

What does everyone think about writing a letter and the content of the letter?
Hey snowman, interesting question about letter writing. (he says with a chuckle and tongue in cheek).

You have some very good qualities. You are strong minded, you come from a solid moral centre, you believe in commitment, you appreciate people who do what they say and mean what they say, you don't like to beat around the bush and play games...

So let me ask you something and let me know if you are prepared to commit to this:

Are you prepared to tell your W, just one more time, this time in a letter, how you feel about her, her actions, and the M, and then... let it go...

just... let it go...

And then, for a period of time set by you, perhaps a month, perhaps two... let your W take the lead and control the fate and destiny of your M.

Can you commit to that?
"but I have not been arrogant with her and I feel that your judgement in that regard is wrong."

Read your first sentence in your response about the alcoholism. Rather than understanding it, and then dealing with it, you talk about how you won't tolerate it.

"How do I go around a communication problem?"

That's what you haven't spent enough time figuring out.

"She filed D on me and lies about it, she kicks me off her insurance and doesn't tell me, she books a trip that I will have to watch my S for 2 weeks and she fails to tell me about it, she lies about what she is doing when we were suppose to talk, and on on. This is what I would call games."

Games would imply there was malicious intent. There isn't any. Your W expressed to you that she was thinking about working things out, which put alot of expectations on her. I don't think you fully realize she does all that stuff without telling you because she's afraid. You haven't made it safe enough for her to open up to you. No games, just fear.

That's part of the "communication" problem. It's not that she can't communicate, she's afraid to communicate with you. It doesn't matter if you can't see it, the issue is that she can.

I still see you salvaging this, but you're going to need a great deal more understanding and compassion and PATIENCE. But that's my opinion.
Kaffe,

That is something that I can commit to with the caveat that if she does take the road of divorce I obviously just can't sit by and let her control the whole situation but other than that yes I could do it. It will be hard as heck to do because I will have many people riding my butt to take action but it is my choice.

I'm not sure how long I would let it go but I could probably do a month or two.

Now what to say in the letter. I will have to write a draft, review it, and write it again.
Understandable, snowman. You can deal with your position at that time, IF she files.

Let me provide one possible option on the letter you are about to write.

Take away all your frustrations right now about not being able to work through things with her.

Imagine she died. We had a tragic situation last fall on this site, where a member's estranged W committed suicide, just as it appeared there may have been having breakthroughs. The member and his children lost the opportunity to truly express how they felt to this woman who was living in her own private pain.

What if that were you?

How would you write a letter to your W, were she gone from you in that way.

And then, how would you write the letter if you knew this was the last chance you could ever express to her, how you felt and what you would do to change things if you could have one, last chance to be with her.

For a moment... Imagine that...

Write your letter, Snowman. And then be at peace with it, as though it is the last and final time you would ever be able to communicate with your W and let her know how you felt... deep inside your pain...
Snow,

Always keep YOUR goals in front of you. When things are getting difficult and tense, lots of advice pops up and many folks feel strongly and advise others 'strongly'.

The truth is, only you know your situation. No one on the board is an expert except for Michele and the DB Coaches. Folks giving you advice only hear YOUR side of the story and only the pieces you tell. You can pick up a momentum that is hard to reverse, especially when talking about things like financial strategies.

Be careful, be wise. While it is good to focus on self care and protect yourself when you are in the LRT, focusing ONLY on your own interests may not put you in a position to save your marriage (and I'm not suggesting that you are doing that, just reading some of the advice here).

Take a step back. Assess what you REALLY want, best case. THEN plan your actions.

Wishing you the BEST.
Kaffe,

My W has already filed on me and says she has papers to give me but she has not yet. Many months ago we had agreed on doing the stipulation route vs. fighting it out in court. I'm not sure if that's what papers she has for me but she claims to have them.

The letter will either push her to give them to me or retract the whole thing. If no action is taken from 120 days that she filed (12-30-11) then the filing expires. I really don't want to go that long by any means.

I do like the perspective of the letter that you propose as it removes resentment and negative thoughts. I thought my W would be affected by her mother's near death experience during this but it barely phased her. You can read my old posts to read about that.

Am I suppose to post the letter on here 1st for review?

I will work on the letter this week when I don't have my S.

sgctxok,

Thanks for your insight, I agree completely. I can only tell bits & pieces of the story because typing it would take a novel. I don't like people making harsh judgements about me or other people on here when they have never met the person and only have tiny pieces of stories (Mr. Bond).

I will need to step back and assess really what I want. In general I want to stay with my W but not in my old marriage as that one is dead. I want a new marriage with improvements in me and changes in her without the current lifestyle that she is living. I obviously need to go a lot deeper than this but on the surface this is what I would want.

I'm afraid that my family could NEVER trust or take back my W after all that has transpired and lets just say this is not the first rodeo in my family of a situation like this. My family is very forgiving and has a diverse background of people/problems among the relatives but the pain caused to me and my family that loved my W so deeply has cut them very deep. My family was her family because hers was not to her. Yet another underlying issue to what I think my W's issues are (I know I'm speculating but I'm only that can do that as I have most of the story and you the reader do not).
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Am I suppose to post the letter on here 1st for review?


I believe you have a good basis and frame for the letter. And understand that if you post here, you will get feedback.

Between you and I, I trust you are committed to having the letter come from your heart with positive and supportive intention for your W.

If you would like to post it here, that is up to you. All I ask is you post when you've sent the letter so we can start the clock.
Don't know why you keep saying that I don't understand your whole sitch, etc. when all I'm doing is repeating what you wrote out. Maybe you're missing the point. You still insist on believing things a certain way (like your W is toying with you or playing games) and I'm just offering a different perspective. If what you've been doing isn't working, maybe it's time to think of it a different way. Sometimes you should try understanding different perspectives to grow.

But that's up to you.
Snowman

I'm sorry you got papers...FYI - in this state about 1/3 of divorces that get filed are never completed...so don't lose all hope yet.


just curious, with all the talk about your w going to c, and yet not going...have you sought out counselling for your issues?

You mention that you have some and are changing but I never saw a single 180 listed...at least not in this thread..

But really look inward, bravely and dig deep, b/c that's where the real journey is.

And listen to what Bond says...to me, you do come off as hyper bossy and controlling and on this thread, you see nearly every single thing your w does, in the most negative light possible.

And you make most of it about you...no offense but that is how it hit me.

If her aunt is paying for her trip to London, why does that take away from you? B/c you get your son for more nights? Okay...she told you this in response to you telling her you were going to Hawaii without son, right? Soooo....Why is it fair for you but not for her?

You pushed for r talks on the anniversary or at a dinner, but I didn't get that's what she wanted at all. She agreed to it after you kept asking and then you did the anti-DB way and pushed her for R talk and then found it "less than satisfactory". IF all you two do is have R talk and no fun or companionhip, is it so surprsing?

See to ME you have not been at this very long...but your m is shorter so maybe that's the difference.

I think she felt pressured. Not that you "bully" her but you do come across on this thread as very forceful...and critical and impatient. Sorry!!

When your BIL criticized her, I would have preferrred that you not join in or better yet you stand up for her. I'd be anything it gets back to her, eventually, that you chimed in...he was destructive to call you as well but he wanted to get an ally against her. How healthy is that?

Remember one thing.

If your w does not believe marriage to you can change and be better and different,

she won't come back.
Simple...not easy, but not complicated.

So how are you revealing the changes that would occur in your own behavior?


what are your 180s and the traits you are working to change in you?
Before response to the various posts I must say I received a disappointing news about my W's trip to London (my negative light I guess). That news is that she has decided to book the trip during my S's birthday. I was ok with her going as that's her choice not mine but doing it right during her S's birthday speaks volumes to me as to where her priorities are. I know I'm going on a trip without my S but I bought the ticket with miles, have a free place to stay, doing it with family, I can actually afford it, and I was upfront with my W about it. On the flip side my W will be using credit cards for her trip (besides the ticket he Grandma is paying for and all the kids borrow money from), London is crazy expensive, she is going with girlfriends which will = lots of drinking, and she is now going during her only S's birthday. I'm passing judgement but I'm not the only one as everyone and I mean everyone says that same whether I should care what they say or not.

Mr. Bond, I didn't say you did or didn't understand the stitch. I said people pass judgement about who I am with knowing only bits or pieces of the story. I guess I just don't like your approach. You don't pass judgement on someone you have never met and then say why don't you see it from my perspective. I don't think that would work in any world. Kaffe provides constructive criticism and it feels like you just provide criticism. Your judgement calls drowned out you advice to me whether it is valid or not. I will work on understanding your perspective if you will understand my when it comes to your approach smile.

25yearsmlc, I'm trying to not loose hope. This is classic to only knowing bits of the story. I have mentioned earlier in my stitch that I went to IC for many visits. I got to a point were my C said to only call if I felt like I needed to because I had progressed so much. I probably should go back for a visit or 2 more but I did a lot of counseling for many months in this stitch.

As far as the anniversary talks or whatever it was, my W and I discussed talking about us so that's what I thought we were going to do. I know now that apparently that was not the case. You can beat me on the head or whatever else but I can' read her freaking mind which is part of the problem because she never communicates what she wants to me nor does she keep simple promises or commitments. We changed our schedule of sharing my S for her school which I agreed too but it made it so I would always have my son at the beginning of the week. Well we pay our daycare at the beginning of the week so I pointed that out so she could give me the check for daycare for her week or pay on Friday. Her we are Monday and she failed to do either so now I will be paying in hopes that she will pay me as she said she would. I could go on but I will refrain as its all just me passing judgement on someone who continues act irresponsible financial or otherwise, sorry that's how I see it.

She just asked me for her Itunes login which I happily provided her and then she asked for mine to authorize my songs on her new computer and I even went out on the limb to do that even though she could possibly buy songs with my account. I offered to copy our whole music collection from our home computer so she would have it. She said that would be awesome.

My BIL inviting me over was not to get allies as this BIL was my W closest sibling. He is disappointed as everyone else is. He did not bash her but he also didn't sure coat it when telling me that my W is yelling the F'word at him on Christmas Eve. I actually had a great time with my BIL and we on briefly talked about my W.

My 180's or traits to change:
-Spend max time with my son and make him top priority
-Be less controlling
-Be happy no matter the things around me
-Get more fit (Not doing so good but part of that is my lots of time with my S, no excuse I know.)
-Let go or detach once again (Probably never did)
-Enjoy and get involved in my hobbies

I can admit I'm not the type that works well with someone smacking me on the head with judgement, criticism, or anything else and then tell me to change. I more in the lines of you show me how much you care before I care how much you know (this will probably be used against me). I can now hear someone saying that's what you need to do with my W and I agree but I have apparently failed to know how to break the barrier of being able to do this.

My MIL is still convinced that her daughter is mentally ill which I can't really say one way or another. It hard to argue against someone's own mother that has known her daughter her whole life until now.

For now I'm going to work on the letter unless people oppose this idea??
Hey snowman, just skimmed your post. I agree with your statement that your W certainly has different priorities. Also interesting that her grandmother lent her the money. I'm wondering if her grandmother knows she's going to be away for her S's b-day.

I haven't been here near as long as some of the "regulars", but I will say I've certainly read a lot more messed up stuff from some of the WASs. And even if your W's actions aren't high on the ranks of messed up... well... as you said... her priorities are curious...

It remains if you still want and will write the letter. And as much as this revelation may effect the content of your letter, be aware of that possibility... If this information is going to change the context of the letter, then put that on the shelf.

If that's the case, this is one of those moments when we take a step back, count to 8,263 and think for a couple days before coming to any decisions.

If you can still write the letter from the same context you committed to, then by all means... carry on...

Snowman - this is a long post. But it includes some other posts on Detachment that I hope will assist you in that endeavor.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
Before response to the various posts I must say I received a disappointing news about my W's trip to London (my negative light I guess). That news is that she has decided to book the trip during my S's birthday.


how old is your son? Pretty young isnt' he? Okay -1) it's not in your control. I feel as if a lot of spouses would take a trip to London if it came up, I'm afraid, if the child is young enough that celebrating another time would not be noticed by him. (And for HIS sake I hope that's what happens.)

But 2) besides, what are you going to do about THAT? Like several other items on your grievance list, I think you have to let it go. She knows when his birthday is....she knows. But I would not project your anger at her onto him on his special day...
3)
put your love for him ahead of your anger at her, and you'll be alright.



I know I'm going on a trip without....----.

the rest of this paragraph is you keeping score w/your w and comparing the trips. Neither of you consulted the other before committing to the trips. I don't think anyone wins with scorecards so I urge couples to "lose the scorecard".

Besides, your w has her own scorecard and you didn't know about it - so my guess is she has a lot of points against you..

See, different views of the same event happen all the time even in calm happy couples. That's another reason you can't measure or keep score - b/c you are comparing apples to oranges. We don't view things the same.


---- she is going with girlfriends which will = lots of drinking, and she is now going during her only S's birthday. I'm passing judgement but I'm not the only one as everyone and I mean everyone says that same whether I should care what they say or not.


so how does passing judgement on her or listening to others do the same, help your situation?

How do you feel when it happens?
Why would people offer their negative critiques on your w, to YOU?

By way of reference, I spoke to my h's family ONE time in 2 years, about our m.



Mr. Bond, I didn't say you did or didn't understand the stitch. I said people pass judgement about who I am with knowing only bits or pieces of the story.

Snowman, Bond is a long time veteran and both he and I are very direct. We ask the poster here to keep the focus on who they can control, which is only the poster; ie you. the one person you can work on...you...

Others will chime in and validate your perceptions of your w's behavior, and on occasion I do too, but don't you hear enough of that in your life?

Sure sounds like there's an audience for your marital woes and-- I have to say that the peanut gallery comments only make it harder to

keep the road home, paved and smooth.
Meaning, don't make it any harder for her to come back than it already would be. This is not about being right but about being happy.

(That used to be in my signature block b/c I SO believe it and I was stuck on being right for far too long.)



I guess I just don't like your approach. You don't pass judgement on someone you have never met and then say why don't you see it from my perspective.


that isn't what he said. You are misreading his words and your approach is curt to a man who just donated his time to help you. And fwiw, You did say you are judgemental of your w, right?


Your judgement calls drowned out you advice to me whether it is valid or not. I will work on understanding your perspective if you will understand my when it comes to your approach smile.

First, your response is what drowned out your ability to receive some valuable advice. Second, Bond does this for free, and has helped many people. Be careful who you brush off here, as it tends to be the very person who can help you the most....listen with extra care to those who seem to strike a chord in you b/c ....they struck a chord that may need examining..



25yearsmlc, I'm trying to not loose hope.

good^^^...it's too early to lose hope. But imo, you have to minimize the involvement of others. That just gets your ego wrapped in it, & upsets you more, which probably affects how you interact with her and not in a good way. Plus it involves and damages other relationships that can make an insurmountable mountain for her to climb if she wants back into the m, and makes so many things harder in the long run.


This is classic to only knowing bits of the story. I have mentioned earlier in my stitch that I went to IC for many visits. I got to a point were my C said to only call if I felt like I needed to because I had progressed so much. I probably should go back for a visit or 2 more---

Considering the situation you are still in , if your c thinks you cannot benefit from any more c, I'd say hire another one or call a DB coach. I know you'll take offense at that but before you drown it all out,

face this--- you are not happy and you obsess about your w b/c you are completely attached to what she is doing/planning, and you do a lot of negative mind reading about all her actions. I also had trouble not obsessing about "WHY" my h was doing what he was doing or when it would stop or what it all meant and my anger consumed me as did my constant thoughts about our situation.

I'm not a shrink but we both know that's not healthy. Do the detachment work asap.


As far as the anniversary talks or whatever it was, my W and I discussed talking about us so that's what I thought we were going to do. I know now that apparently that was not the case. You can beat me on the head or whatever else


you think you got "beat on the head"?? Okay well...

You said your w won't communicate, so does that mean she's stone cold silent?

Back when things were better, How would you and your w communicate when she felt a negative emotion?

When she was not pleased with something you had done or planned to do?
In other words-
How do you characterize her words, or handle them, when they are not positive to you? Do you feel attacked?



but I can' read her freaking mind which is part of the problem because she never communicates what she wants to me nor does she keep simple promises or commitments.

see above


We changed our schedule of sharing my S for her school which I agreed too but it made it so I would always have my son at the beginning of the week. Well we pay our daycare at the beginning of the week so I pointed that out so she could give me the check for daycare for her week or pay on Friday. Her we are Monday and she failed to do either so now I will be paying in hopes that she will pay me as she said she would.

do you have joint accounts? Is there some way you can calmly remove the money for that and let her know ahead of time,

or push the issue by simply staying on track via email or text, or some written form, so she remembers her actual promises?

Something tells me she sometimes agrees, or remains quiet and appears to consent, to keep the peace.

Or perhaps she wants to flee or she feels coerced. I'm just basing that on women's intuition, my experience in my professional life, and based on your words, but I know I could be wrong and often am.

But that's a guess. See if you can speak in softer tones with her and then re-cap what you think she has agreed to, without sounding condescending. Can't hurt.

Can you re-cap what HER 2 biggest complaints were about you, when she first dropped the bomb?

And how are you working on those two issues now?



I could go on but I will refrain as its all just me passing judgement on someone who continues act irresponsible financial or otherwise, sorry that's how I see it.

She just asked me for her Itunes login which I happily provided her and then she asked for mine to authorize my songs on her new computer and I even went out on the limb to do that even though she could possibly buy songs with my account. I offered to copy our whole music collection from our home computer so she would have it. She said that would be awesome.


not sure what all this^^^ is about. It's a nice gesture (copying her music for her) but you sound resentful of it, so I'm not seeing the love language being expressed here. Are you happy to do it or not? Do you notice anything about the tone you use about her, even when you are "happy to do it"?

(BTW please read "The Five Love Languages" by Chapman. FYI- I say this to all couples as I think it's among the best overall marriage books around, and most couples express & receive love in different "lanes."

They may not realize it for years or ever, and consequently they can both be loving their spouse, and yet have a spouse who does not feel loved....Can't hurt to read it).


My BIL inviting me over was not to get allies as this BIL was my W closest sibling. He is disappointed as everyone else is.

Re read the post I reacted to.

You said your bil was on the phone w/you and said something derogatory about your w, w/something to the effect of "now he gets what you have been going through"...you did not disavow him of that.

As i said elsewhere, the more other people comment on things, the harder it is to reconcile. I'd put a moratorium on comments and say "I apppreciate your intentions but for now I don't want to talk about it, thanks..."

How is it so many family members know the story AND feel free to comment on it? My guess is you called them to "ask their opinion"? While I do understand the temptation to do that, it never seems to help and usually makes things worse.

I would not invite their comments. At least not while you are in the midst of fighting FOR the marriage and struggling against the temptation to wallow in anger and fury.

In my 2 YEARS of dealing w/my h's MLC, I spoke to my h's family ONCE about our marriage.

I don't believe the more who know, the better---B/c again, I think that makes it harder to Keep the Road Home, Paved & Smooth...


Plus, there is a certain beauty and dignity in a man who refuses to criticize the mother of his children.

Furthermore, if there's a real chance she's mentally ill as you say your MIL claims, then remember your vows. (sickness and health)

And there's a reason the vows say "from this day forward"....you both would have to leave a lot of the past behind...while of course learning from it.

But a lot of LBSers say that about spouses who leave, b/c they want to blame it on something and not look at their marital dynamics..

it's not easy to dig deep and own our role in the demise of our m, EVER, let alone when we are in pain.

But I urge you to do so,

b/c the couples who DO reconcile for good around here, all seem to have made significant changes in themselves....usually starting with the LBSer and for a long time, maybe only the LBSer.



My 180's or traits to change:
-Spend max time with my son and make him top priority
-Be less controlling

what does this^^ mean and what will it look like?


-Be happy no matter the things around me
-Get more fit (Not doing so good but part of that is my lots of time with my S, no excuse I know.)
-Let go or detach once again (Probably never did)
-Enjoy and get involved in my hobbies


these ^^^GAL sound good. I would add that you have not detached- but I'll post something to clarify it for you if that helps. I could not wrap my brain around "detachment" for a long time

b/c I associated it with giving up or not caring. I was wrong.

I also hope your hobbies involve meeting other people who don't know the sitch b/c it really helps the self esteem and it reduces the obsessing.


I can admit I'm not the type that works well with someone smacking me on the head with judgement, criticism

who does? and who smacks you w/criticism? Are you talking about your real life or this board?


or anything else and then tell me to change.


read that statement^^^ and imagine someone else wrote that. What would your impression of them be?

At some level, do you see that for the marriage to be reconciled,

SHE has to believe it can change -- and that's going to mean

at least partly, YOU changing? Is that what's bothering you?

Why? B/C it implies fault? We all have them - and we ALL have to work on our them...that's why it takes a brave person to look within...

& not all traits that need changing are necessarily flaws, but still need to change, for the spouse...



I more in the lines of you show me how much you care before I care how much you know (this will probably be used against me).


I will assume you mean this in real life, and not here? B/C i don't know you. So what do you mean about showing we care?

I mean, we're here...taking our personal time to post to a perfect stranger in pain b/c we believe in the underlying philosophy of DBing and

building a community of support for marriage. AND b/c we have ALL been somewhere like where you are now. And it sukks.

Second, what's going to be "used against" you? What are you referring to here?


I can now hear someone saying that's what you need to do with my W and I agree but I have apparently failed to know how to break the barrier of being able to do this.


I don't know what this^^^ means...



My MIL is still convinced that her daughter is mentally ill


based on what? Leaving you? What else? Has your w ever seen a shrink? Ever acted this way OR mentally ill before?

Does your mil have an illness of her own she's projecting, or do you think she might be coming up with this as some sort of explanation?

Are she and your fil still married? What's their m like?



which I can't really say one way or another. It hard to argue against someone's own mother that has known her daughter her whole life until now.


good thing you don't have to argue or defend. Listen and evaluate.

For now I'm going to work on the letter unless people oppose this idea??



I can't comment about the letter b/c I don't know its content or purpose.
Must have missed that thread.

here are two posts on detachment that I found helpful.

This was originally posted by Peanut.
============
I) Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals. We can not control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.


If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals. On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’ It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."

2) Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow people, places or things the freedom to be themselves.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save OR fix another person from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving another person "the space" to be herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with people.

* Willingness to accept that you cannot change or control a person, place or thing.

* Developing and maintaining of a safe, emotional distance from someone whom you have previously given a lot of power to affect your emotional outlook on life.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between you and those people you have become overly enmeshed or dependent with in order that all of you might be able to develop your own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which you are free to feel your own feelings when you see another person falter and fail and not be led by guilt to feel responsible for their failure or faltering.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective and recognizing that there is a need to back away from the uncontrollable and unchangeable realities of life.
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to experience greater emotional devastation from having hung on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people you love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to practice tough love and not give in when they come to you to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow people to be who they "really are" rather than who you "want them to be."
* Ability to avoid being hurt, abused, taken advantage of by people who in the past have been overly dependent or enmeshed with you.
_________________________

hope this helps

good luck
Thanks 25yrsmlc!

Snowman, she's totally right.

What you've been seeking is validation, saying that you're doing a good job, etc. What I see is that you're going down the wrong path.

When I mention something that you disagree with, you seem to take it as a personal attack and so you ignore or come up with a snarky comment, or say that I don't "understand" your efforts, etc.

I've been in your shoes and had many people kick my @$$. 25yearsmlc was one, sandi, puppydogtails, coach, robx were others. Did I always agree with what they said? Of course not. But their 2x4's helped me to get an insight that I never had before. Even if I thought they were dead wrong, I considered what they said and took it to heart. Sometimes they were wrong, but most of the time they were right. It's a matter of being open enough to learn.

Oh I understand your efforts. And the ones that will lead you back to your W are commendable. But if you keep thinking that people (especially your W) has some sort of vendetta against you, then your sitch will not change. You keep mentioning your W is "playing games" etc. All I see is a woman who is afraid to talk to you. You do put her down alot in your posts. Re-read them.

You blast your W for her choice of going on a trip when you're doing the same. Yes it's on your S's Bday, but her justification to herself is just as valid as your justification for yours is to you. Her trip is an escape same as the other men. Your expectations are putting alot of pressure on her.

Again, it doesn't matter that YOU don't see it, SHE does. Put yourself in your W's shoes (as hard as it may be for you). It's good that you have strong opinions, but you also must respect others' as well. Especially your W's.

You married her so there must have been something you thought was worth marrying. Remember those traits. If you constantly focus on the negatives with your W, all you will feel is negative. Small positive baby steps is what will draw your W back. I do see this as being salvagable, but you need to start changing your perception.
25 yearsmlc-

My W missing my S's birthday is just so out of character for her it blows my mind. She was the one that love to make a big deal about kids birthdays and when we went to other family members houses for kids birthdays they would flock to her. It is just so the opposite of her to do something like this thats all I want to say. I'm glad I get him for sure on his birthday and I will not project my anger on him for sure.

I did consult with her on my trip as I knew it affected her schedule and that's just common courtesy to do so. That's when her trip came up with me. No more scorecard, that is water under the bridge.

The passing judgement question is rehtorical as I know it doesn't help but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen in my mind or others. I would work my best to avoid it. It will limit my talk of the M with her family but I'm not going to cut them off or whatever because they know what they do. I will work to keep things positive or not talk.

I like your motto of keep the road home, paved and smooth; this is not about being right but about being happy.

Yes, I will admit I'm judgmental of my W's actions as she has done a 180 in ever aspect of life possible and not in a good way from the way I knew and loved her.

I will think about the chords that have been stuck more objectively. I do know you 2 do this for free and I thank you.

I had made good progress with my IC and I'm sure I have regressed as things have changed with the stitch and my obsessing started again. I was at a point months ago were I was not obsessing and doing good detachment work. I have backslide for sure.

When things were better I suppose my W would still hold it in and sit in a corner silently looking bothered through her body language but refused to talk about it (this is how she has always dealt with negative emotions that I can remember). She would rather let the feelings fester to the point of anger. I will say that's not how I am, I like to get the bottled stuff out and discussed. That's obviously a point of difference that we both have changes to make. I need to pull back and let her process things and I would like her to share what she has to feel. The sitting in a corner sending me bad vibes through body language was way worse for me than actually talking about whatever it was. I would always try to help or be the fixer because her extreme anger or blow ups would scare to the point that I felt desperate like I needed to help her fix the problem ASAP. I didn't feel attacked really, I felt left out like she didn't want my help, couldn't share her feelings, or she would rather bottle it up until it exploded. She would do this with others as well.

She transferred some money into the joint account today so hopefully that is resolved but I have had to remind her numerous times even though I know she checks the balance online all the time. We will see were that goes and I will work on wording things in softer matter.

When the bomb was dropped it was like word vomit of everything negative in our marriage she could think of and just made it up. I seriously can't recall 2 big things right now because there was not big thing to her it was just everything. She couldn't even explain it to me and still can't to this day.

Itunes-I get your point. I was happy to do it and I will. The giving her access to my iTunes account just scares me a little considering her financial decisions, that's all. I have read The Five Love Languages as that was the first book I read. Then I got shut out by my wife. A review couldn't hurt.

My BIL about walked out of their Christmas Eve family get together because my BIL was joking around like he always has and my W told him to F off. My BIL and his W were ready to leave until finally my W apologized. My BIL is aware of the situation without my talking as my W has left him hanging numerous times when they invited her over for dinner or whatever. I get your point though and I will again work on limited the talk although my W made the comment that if I had worked on my R with her family maybe we wouldn't be were we are now. None of them understand that as they think we have always had a good R. I think my W is projecting her issue with her family on me with that comment. My family is very close which I thinks bugs her because hers is not.

I'm still not ruling out mental illness either but I also don't say that I don't have a role in the demise of my M. My issue is control. I discussed it a lot with my IC and you all have pointed it out. I will work on detaching and my control issue. I will say my mother helped in passing our control issue down to us and my sisters agree as well. We recognize it and do it not with bad intentions but in efforts to try and make things better but that's not always how it is received. I know this and will continue to work on it by only controlling me.

I would like to somehow meet people that don't know about the stitch but most of my world knows I'm married and question where the W or kid is when I see them. Tough to do but I will try.

Me changing is not bothering me. I know I need to change and I want to for me. I have faults and a lot of them as well as changes to make for my spouse.

MIL thinking she is mentally ill-I have posted a lot about that opinion in my old posting so I'm not going to try to re-type all of it. It is not based on leaving me. Please read old posts about this. My MIL is not projecting a mental illness she might have. My MIL and FIL are not married. My FIL cheated on her and his 2nd marriage is rocky now too. That would be a whole another stitch to try to explain.

Read a few posts back to understand the letter.

Mr. Bond-I will work on doing what you have to say. I will get the negativity out of here. No more scorecard.
Quote:
My W missing my S's birthday is just so out of character for her it blows my mind. She was the one that love to make a big deal about kids birthdays
Snow... I think it's a symptom of their self-focus right now. My W was always the same way. Her childhood birthdays were largely non-existent. So we've always done big, big birthdays for the kids. It was a point of contention the last few years as all three kids have birthdays Jan-April, and the cash outlay got to be a lot.

This year, for SS's birthday she didn't want a party or anything. Just went bowling as a family and then she took off right after lunch to go spend the rest of the day with her friends. I ended up taking SS to my mom's house so he could have a cake and presents, etc...
"in a corner silently looking bothered through her body language but refused to talk about it (this is how she has always dealt with negative emotions that I can remember)"

She probably felt like she didn't have a voice (in her mind) and that her opinion doesn't matter. All stemming from fear. In the future when that happens, maybe try saying something like "Hey I noticed that you are bothered about something and it's okay if you don't want to talk about it. I just want you to know that I am here if you do." Then give her a hug and walk away. It does wonders.

Forget about her affect on her family, your family, etc. Keep the focus on you and her. You are her H so she's ultimately your responsibility. If you see her family ganging up in disapproval of her, see what you can do to be on her side. Not saying that you agree with what she does, but show that you understand that she has an opinion and that it is just as valid as everyone else's. Women often don't want a solution or being told what they're doing is wrong. Sometimes they just need to be listened to.

How about this...rather than spending the posts writing about all the negative stuff your W is doing, how about writing something positive each time. It could even be about small stuff like ... she smiled when I held the door for her. Stuff like that. It helps to get the negativity out.
Snow, I have been a controlling, judgmental, angry, depressed fixer. I too know just where all that came from. I also now know that all those characteristics were defense mechanisms to keep my fears at bay, fear of rejection, fear of not having enough, fear of not being good enough, smart enough, yadda yadda. Defense mechanisms are good until they take over your life.

But the big truth is, I have to own those things, really own them. The person who passed on the control issues is not going to fix me. It's not my H's job, it's not my therapist's job, it's my job. I need to look at myself through H's lens and really see what he saw. It's the most difficult thing I think I've ever had to do because it's not pretty and it makes me understand just why he left. That scares me, because he had good reason and he may very well not come back. Do I wish he had talked more about what was bothering him? Sure. Would things have been any different? I don't know, I was so wrapped up in being right that I might have ignored it. I am where I am for a very good reason. To learn these lessons:

-hold the judgment
-when in doubt, go with the positive spin
-listen, listen, listen
-talk less
-think

I've really gotten a lot from this thread and will continue to follow. I hope the best for you and your family Thanks, all.

One other thing, believe it when the vets here say that when you feel the bite or the sting of a post, that's where the growth happens. It is so true. We have pain in our bodies for a reason, the same is true of our minds. Focus on where the pain is.
Mr Bond.-I would love to have a chance to hug her and say that if she ever does that again but we have been separated for pretty much the whole time and my is W is avoiding me pretty much because she pulled he D pistol out of the holster but I don't think she intends to use it. All her texts are pretty much requesting things from me which I'm fine to fulfill when I can.

I agree that my W just wants someone to listen and doesn't want solutions. I thought I had learned that when we were still together but now I don't get that chance for now.

I will say that I need to vent a little today about what she texted me because I rather do it here than with her or someone else. My W asked me to give her half of some of the savings in a Ally account we have so she could pay tuition. I don't really have problem with that as I told her a long time ago when this all started that I would take my half and she hers which I did and have not touched it. She had not taken her part out of this account which is no big deal but they reason she stated in the text is what bothers me. She just rode my butt about getting some letter signed saying we both provide 50/50 support for our S for her supposed school loan and I did sign the letter (after talking to my L). My question is then, if she got a school loan to pay tuition which is what she told me then why does she need money to pay tuition?? She recently texted me the dates of her now set trip and now she is asking for the money.

My point is, if she needs the money to pay for hotel and other things on her trip or life just come out and say it. Don't lie to me and expect me to be so forthcoming. I just find this silly. Thinking from her point of view she may be afraid or whatever else to just say the real reason but lying to me just doesn't work for me. I will send her the money one way or another as it is hers but my fear is that she has pretty much taken all her half of the money and will spend it then divorce me and take the half that I have not touched because I have being living frugal to prepare for whatever the future holds. I'm sorry about this negative post but this just kind of miffed me today. Ok, I'm done venting.

La Bug-Thinks for your insight on the control issue and I agree that I need to own it. I was doing a better job of owning it months ago but have since regressed. I will focus more on figuring it out my control issue.

Thanks everyone for all your help, you all know I need it.
"but we have been separated for pretty much the whole time and my is W is avoiding me pretty much"

No more 'buts'. Buts are excuses. When you have an opportunity, just do it.

" because she pulled he D pistol out of the holster but I don't think she intends to use it."

Mindreading.

"I agree that my W just wants someone to listen and doesn't want solutions. I thought I had learned that when we were still together but now I don't get that chance for now."

Another 'but'. You talk to your W all the time even if it is her asking you for a favor. Start by making those interactions positive.

So what about the POSITIVE action or thing about your W?
Hi Snowman,

I just browsed through your thread. Didn’t read it in detail. Just browsed.

You got into a few pissing contests with some folks, eh?

The way people express themselves...

Ya know? It all comes down to perceptions.

There’s a lesson here. Don’t get caught up on the words. Regardless of what you said to your W, or what your W said to you... More words.

Can you read between the lines?

Like MrBond just posted, nobody’s a mind reader. I’m not suggesting that you try to read your W’s mind. But regardless of whether your W’s complaints are justified, ask yourself where those perceptions came from.

Originally Posted By: Snowman
When the bomb was dropped it was like word vomit of everything negative in our marriage she could think of and just made it up. I seriously can't recall 2 big things right now because there was not big thing to her it was just everything. She couldn't even explain it to me and still can't to this day.

Did you take notes? She has given you a gold mine of 180’s. Don’t expect her to explain it, but take a look at the little things. Look at them with an eye to figuring out what you may have done that could be construed in any unlikely fashion to promote or support her negative perception. Doesn’t matter if the actual complaint is utter krap. It’s all perception.

And now... Do the opposite! That’s a 180. No judgment. She’s not right or wrong. You’re not right or wrong.

Hope this makes sense.
Mr Bond-No more BUTTS even though everybody's got one, jk. Ok, I just sent the money to my W.

Positive-My wife said thank you when I told her I would send her the money. Also, my S & W called me as I was typing this because he was apparently scared of shadows. We talked about figuring out our S's sleeping problems and I told my W I had transferred the money. It was a positive conversation for me I felt like.

ANS-I will have to think about what was truly said as that was July of 2011 when the bomb hit. She has since apologized for a lot of what was said and even said she would take back most of it if she could in a text so I don't know what was real or not. This is were I have work to do.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Mr Bond-No more BUTTS even though everybody's got one, jk. Ok, I just sent the money to my W.

Positive-My wife said thank you when I told her I would send her the money.

it was probably a 180 of yours not to lecture or criticize her or mind read about what she is doing "wrong" with the money so, good for you. And I'm glad she said "thanks"...keep this up.

As long as you are protecting your marital assets, what she does with money that she's legally entitled to and or that you agreed to give, isn't your concern.

Even if you want to spend energy justifying your irritation at her, again, I'd say "but you have NO control over this -so why bother spending ANY energy on it?"

when you learn to let go of what you cannot control, you'll be making a huge step forward in being a happier person, and a man much easier to be around.



Also, my S & W called me as I was typing this because he was apparently scared of shadows. We talked about figuring out our S's sleeping problems and I told my W I had transferred the money. It was a positive conversation for me I felt like.

good!!...build on these^^^ one layer at a time


ANS-I will have to think about what was truly said as that was July of 2011 when the bomb hit. She has since apologized for a lot of what was said and even said she would take back most of it if she could in a text so I don't know what was real or not. This is were I have work to do.


YES it is your work to do. Don't blow this chance by not digging deep. Figure out what your issues are and work like heck at repairing them.

Being controlling isn't a light trait to deal with as a spouse. It mostly comes out as criticism and the intention behind it, is irrelevant to most WASs....they are tired of feeling edgy around the controlling person, or wounded, or demeaned...

they often withdraw as they tire of conflict. In fact that's a very common response. The quieter she gets, the more reassurance she needs.

She isn't the type of person who likes to hash things out, and you sound as if you are. IMO your behavior could be more easily modified in this scenario, than hers. You have to be calmer and she has to speak up more.
But you'd need to take the first (several) steps before she'll feel comfortable sharing openly with you. There's a lot of marital history to overcome.

She can own what she feels and speak up, but she won't if she fears your reaction. And you are in charge of that reaction.

The priest who married my h and I once said

"of course deceit in a marriage is bad. But don't give your spouse a reason to deceive you, by over reacting, berating or lecturing.

If your spouse dents the car and you lose your temper, or rant, or you go on and on or bring up past events, or lecture, the next time something happens to the car, you won't know...b/c your spouse won't feel like sharing that info and he'll learn NOT to tell you unpleasant things. And life has a lot of those..."

and that will undermine the marriage. So keep that in mind. Even if YOU feel you did not over react or lecture

your W probably thinks you do....and that is what matters.

I do hope you lose the scorecard. A good example of this was when I noticed that you said you "gave her notice about my trip" and THEN she told you about hers...that almost implies you were doing something above board, and she wasn't.

But to me, it looks as if you darn near both did identical things. You told her after the fact that you had made plans for a trip. You presented it as a fait accompli, & that affects her b/c she'll have your son. You did not ask her if you could go. You informed her.

THEN She shared that she is also taking a trip. Looks pretty similar to me.

You say you are losing the scorecard and I hope you do b/c it's crucial for you to grasp that on HER scorecard she is a long suffering victim.

I suspect she didn't know how or when to tell you and your disclosure made it obvious that it was THEN she needed to tell you.

Anyhow it's not a big deal -- but I hope you can see that your viewpoint was pretty biased...and that's NOT helpful to you.

The more you can understand HER point of view, the better off YOU will be. I hope you get this.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
ANS-I will have to think about what was truly said as that was July of 2011 when the bomb hit. She has since apologized for a lot of what was said and even said she would take back most of it if she could in a text so I don't know what was real or not. This is were I have work to do.

That's cool Snowman. I have just one thought. I wouldn't throw out the stuff she retracted. It may not be as important as the things she still considers to be true, but maybe those "unreal" complaints have something you can learn from anyway. Maybe you can still learn something about what drives her negative perceptions of you, y'know?
Well, my ride with my W has come to an end. She delivered the D papers. I signed the paper saying I was server but not the others as there are things to be revised. She got what she wanted out of the kitchen while I played with my son. I tried what I could and I know it was not always my best at times but I can go away saying I gave ti my all. I will meet with my L to revise some things and get this done. It is disappointing but I'm ready to move on. I will continue to heal and work on myself with you guys but I don't want to fight the divorce anymore. I will let her take her new path. Thanks for all your help and continue to provide it as I know I will need it. What a Sunday frown
I have 2 family members who finished their m's...they divorced...

only to remarry a few years later, so it happens.

(They say it was better the 2nd time around & I believe them. My uncle died a few years ago, but his w and children were at his bedside at the moment of death, expressing their love for him, b/c of the reconciliation.

Otherwise I fear, he'd have died alone.)

And in the state of California, a third of divorces that get filed, are never completed. So leave her to her task so she can take a breath and look at where she is, without the pressure of your needs.

I hope you won't give up so fast and please don't refuse to dig deep.


I am left with the sense that you are relieved by this. It's as if you no longer have to wonder about what YOU did to contribute to this--that bothers me--

and now you think the few minor changes you might make, will suffice, or you'll "just pick better" next time.

But it does not work that way.

Most divorced people do NOT learn what they should or could have learned from their first marriage's failure.

That's why the divorce rate is higher for 2nd m's....


Be different. Be smarter, and braver than those people...or you'll be hurt again.

Hey-if you want to give up, so be it. We all have our limits.

But make sure it's a choice you are making - not out of pride or anger...or even frustration,

but honest reflection, and a profoundly deep understanding of how you got here, and humility.

And in case you don't know it,

I am very sorry for your pain Snowman...
25yearsmlc-I'm not relieved by this at all and I will not stop my work on how I contributed to this. I truly want to become a better me. I don't want to take my bad things into my future relationships.

I'm not making this decision out or pride, anger, or frustration. I'm making it because this is what my W wants and I love her. I'm not going to fight some legal battle to stall the divorce. We have always decided in this that we would not drag this through the courts or anything else so the only task left at hand is to have my L review/change what I would like and give her the signed final papers, other than that it could only get into a ugly L battle.

I have been humbled more then I could ever explain and I have spent more time on my knees praying than ever before.

Please do paint the picture like I'm giving it, that bothers me. What would you have me do at this point, not sign anything and force her to use her L to make me sign it and take all that I have away as well as my S? I will not take that route.

I will continue to work on me as I said before. I know my work or journey is not done. I still think I should probably write the letter that Kaffe mentioned and it will truly be as if it is my true last communication with my W. What do you think?
Originally Posted By: Snowman
25yearsmlc-I'm not relieved by this at all and I will not stop my work on how I contributed to this. I truly want to become a better me. I don't want to take my bad things into my future relationships.

that's wise



I'm not making this decision out or pride, anger, or frustration.

I said to "make sure" you are not...and I'm glad you checked that.



I'm making it because this is what my W wants and I love her. I'm not going to fight some legal battle to stall the divorce. We have always decided in this that we would not drag this through the courts or anything else


that^^ was Not clear to me. I thought you did not want the divorce. I understand you have been fighting for 2 years, and nothing improved and sounds as if nothing new was tried...or changed...

But DBing is relatively new to you...and it's a simple but radically different approach to marital problems. It's not about the past or the baggage, but how to fix things "from this day forward." it's solution based therapeutic approach to problems you have NOW.

My h and I had seen 4 mc's...literally, before DBing began on my end. ALL of them told me h was "acting single/selfish" "as if he had no family to consider" "as if he wanted ME to file", etc.

H said I had "brainwashed all of them" b/c I am a L and speak persuasively. He refused to go anymore so it did me NO good to have them all agree with me.

NOT One told me what to do or how to improve things...it was all about being "stuck with a selfish h" like I was RIGHT BUT POWERLESS...


then I got into DBing and found a pro=m mc and I CHANGED...and then WE changed...

NOT saying it works for all. It does not.



so the only task left at hand is to have my L review/change what I would like and give her the signed final papers, other than that it could only get into a ugly L battle.

I have been humbled more then I could ever explain and I have spent more time on my knees praying than ever before.

I accept that this^^^ has happened to you and it's a very painful experience. However, it CAN lead to an incredible transformation...



Please do paint the picture like I'm giving it, that bothers me.


Not sure what that^^^ sentence means. I pose questions to you, and or I tell you how something you wrote strikes me.


What would you have me do at this point, not sign anything and force her to use her L to make me sign it and take all that I have away as well as my S? I will not take that route.

never EVER suggested that^^^. I oppose using the legal system to punish....

Nor do I think that's the only option you have. But since you sound resolute, I'll drop it.



I will continue to work on me as I said before. I know my work or journey is not done.


That's true of most of us. But you struck me and a few others in a similar way. Try not to blow it off b/c it annoys you; try hard to use it FOR your growth. We're not professionals.

But we see things and tell it like we see it HERE, from what YOU, the poster here posting, writes to us...that's all we can do.

I still think I should probably write the letter that Kaffe mentioned and it will truly be as if it is my true last communication with my W. What do you think?


Can't see how it would hurt. But I don't know the contents of the letter so I'm going by my assumption that KD is suggesting a constructive tone and content.

Crimson wrote one to his w and they are now going to see a mc to "process" it. So it sure didn't hurt his cause.


Good luck

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
... I'm going by my assumption that KD is suggesting a constructive tone and content.

Crimson wrote one to his w and they are now going to see a mc to "process" it. So it sure didn't hurt his cause.


ding, ding, ding! smile Yup...

"first day, last day" principle as the context of the letter. Once done, it's done. No take backs, no regrets, only honest and deep, heart felt authenticity. No blame, no shame.

FWIW Snowman, letter writing is not something that is often recommended as it is seen as pursuing. And as I believe you understand, this letter would in no way be to win her back nor to pursue nor persuade her.

And as always, it is a choice...

One thing that I see a lot of here and otherwise is the complete belief that BECAUSE we did something and DID NOT do something else, those things were the reasons for success or failure.

The reality is, when we set on a path from point A to point B, we will never know the experience nor results of any other path we COULD have chosen.

If there are 100 paths, 100 of them could lead to failure or 100 of them could lead to success. Do or don't do. And if you feel you have done EVERYTHING you could have done, or more likely everything that you are prepared to do and you are ready to throw in the towel... that too is a choice and it is up to you whether the result is success or failure... for you...

But you know that... smile
Quote:

that^^ was Not clear to me. I thought you did not want the divorce. I understand you have been fighting for 2 years, and nothing improved and sounds as if nothing new was tried...or changed...


I don't want a divorce. New things were tried and I have changed. I sort of went in waves at first when trying DB but I have done things to change. I'm still working on me and will continue to do so.

Quote:
But DBing is relatively new to you...and it's a simple but radically different approach to marital problems. It's not about the past or the baggage, but how to fix things "from this day forward." it's solution based therapeutic approach to problems you have NOW.


Yes, I know this.

Quote:
My h and I had seen 4 mc's...literally, before DBing began on my end. ALL of them told me h was "acting single/selfish" "as if he had no family to consider" "as if he wanted ME to file", etc.

H said I had "brainwashed all of them" b/c I am a L and speak persuasively. He refused to go anymore so it did me NO good to have them all agree with me.

NOT One told me what to do or how to improve things...it was all about being "stuck with a selfish h" like I was RIGHT BUT POWERLESS...


then I got into DBing and found a pro=m mc and I CHANGED...and then WE changed...

NOT saying it works for all. It does not.


I know it does no good to have everyone agree with me. I have learned that just like you did. I also had found a pro-M MC but she didn't want to go.

Quote:
Nor do I think that's the only option you have. But since you sound resolute, I'll drop it.


What other options do you think I have?

Quote:
That's true of most of us. But you struck me and a few others in a similar way. Try not to blow it off b/c it annoys you; try hard to use it FOR your growth. We're not professionals.

But we see things and tell it like we see it HERE, from what YOU, the poster here posting, writes to us...that's all we can do.


I will use it for growth. I know you can only see what you get from the posts which is sometimes frustrating as I feel like I have been painted as a worse person than I am. Most people know me as the meek and humble person of the group but that doesn't really come across in this forum because a lot has been frustration and anger which I know. I always wanted whats best for my W and be the best husband/father I could be. I'm not perfect and I'm working on it.

Quote:
Can't see how it would hurt. But I don't know the contents of the letter so I'm going by my assumption that KD is suggesting a constructive tone and content.

Crimson wrote one to his w and they are now going to see a mc to "process" it. So it sure didn't hurt his cause.


I would not write a scathing letter or any other kind of negative letter.

Quote:
FWIW Snowman, letter writing is not something that is often recommended as it is seen as pursuing. And as I believe you understand, this letter would in no way be to win her back nor to pursue nor persuade her.


I know it is not to win her back.

Quote:
One thing that I see a lot of here and otherwise is the complete belief that BECAUSE we did something and DID NOT do something else, those things were the reasons for success or failure.

The reality is, when we set on a path from point A to point B, we will never know the experience nor results of any other path we COULD have chosen.

If there are 100 paths, 100 of them could lead to failure or 100 of them could lead to success. Do or don't do. And if you feel you have done EVERYTHING you could have done, or more likely everything that you are prepared to do and you are ready to throw in the towel... that too is a choice and it is up to you whether the result is success or failure... for you...


I agree that we don't know the results of any one path we choose but we must pick a path. I don't know what else I can do at this point. What suggestions would you have me do?
Originally Posted By: Snowman
I agree that we don't know the results of any one path we choose but we must pick a path. I don't know what else I can do at this point. What suggestions would you have me do?


Understand that I am not a professional counselor, therapist, nor life coach. I have a background and experience that I draw from and that is all.

I am getting a sense that you are moving into a deeper stage of grief or possibly acceptance and this could be very helpful in your search to find the words for your letter. This is as much a therapeutic exercise for you.

I may have another thought on this as you work on this, and before the letter is sent off, I'd like to discuss it with you. Just to be clear on that. I think I may have said write it and send it, and if so, I've changed my mind.

There is a concept called "first day, last day". As is obvious, this is two fold that consists of:

first day - Imagine this is the first day you have been alive. You have past to draw on which includes no positive, but more importantly, no negative. You are seeing the world for the very first time, like through the eyes of a child.

No, transpose that to your W. Do your best to see your W as someone you have only just met. Picture her in your mind and what do you see? What beauty does she posses? Dig into her inner beauty, not just her outer beauty. What is it that draws you to her? Why do you love her?

This is the focus for your context.

last day - as today is the first day, and the world is amazing and wonderful, also imagine this is the very last day you have on this earth. THERE IS NO TOMORROW.

This is an old concept of keeping people in the present. There is no guarantee that we will wake up tomorrow morning. Some people have this reality to deal with... most of us are blissfully oblivious of this possible reality.

If this were the very last day you had on earth (or just as easily, the last day your W had on this earth), what would you do with her? What would you say to her?

Imagine how you would miss her... her smell... the sound of her voice... her touch... how you feel when you are with her...

What do you really want her to know?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does that help you to get started?

Please ask questions and I will help you through this, but these are your words and these are your feelings and this is a letter that you need to write as it needs to be absolutely genuine and true to who you are... or who you would like to be... if you know what you have done "wrong", let her know... if you know what you would do "better", let her know...

And keep me posted on your progress. Keep the letter to two or less, double spaced pages.

Take some time to really get into the first day / last day frame. Some will meditate over it, or pray over it as you may. Feel the weight and gravity of the last day... really feel the joy and wonder of first day...

And once you have had the time to dwell on that... begin writing your last letter to your sweetheart...
Oh, and yes... that was specifically about the letter...

But as far as the path... Man... I wish I had a crystal ball, but I don't...

I can say only this: Consider as many paths before you... make a choice of which to follow... be 100% committed to that choice and 100% clear of your responsibilities associated with your choice... and start moving forward.

I concede and appologize that is a cryptic answer and not really helpful.

I could suggest that you get down on your knees and from the deepest sorrow and angst of your soul, profess your undying love for your W and how you will support her on a pedestal for the rest of her life... but I won't...

I could suggest that you surrender to the reality that you cannot control and that you should now begin the process of financial separation and divorce and get on with your life without your W... but I won't...

I could suggest that you deny and ignore any and all negative aspects of your M, and just carry on with life, oblivious to and even in disregard to your W's wishes and desires... but I won't...

Because the harsh reality is... even the most difficult of things that are about us... are thing we need to do ourselves...
KD-I will work on getting into the mindset you describe above. Your ideas help me get into a mindset free of negativity were I can write the letter that I want. The letter that truly represents me and my feelings for my W.

It might take me a couple of days to get started as I get my S back today and I usually focus on him and us as much as possible when I have him.

I will also be giving my L the papers to revise them as there is some disappointing things stated in there that my w said she would not do and I think the L convinced her she needs to ask for.

I will keep you posted and thanks to all for you help and support.
Awesome, Snowman!

Take the time you need to do this. And yes, where you are going with your thoughts to create this letter is not a place you want your mind while you have your S.

Although first day / last day is a great tool to use while with your S, as well. Imagine you are like him. Seeing the world from the eyes of a child. How wondrous that must be for him and how can you help him create the experiences and memories that will last through his life. And to stay away from the sad parts of it, but if this were the last day you would ever be with him, would you really sit him in front of the TV while you do "dad stuff", or would you focus every moment on him, because you'll never have the opportunity again...

Find a balance. And have fun with your S!
Quote:
but if this were the last day you would ever be with him, would you really sit him in front of the TV
Snowman... the term for this is child-centric. Listen to your S, he will tell you what he needs. He will need you and he will need his time too. But yes, work on it without S around.

And if you let yourself get into this mindset it really makes life better as a dad. This new mindset may be the greatest gift this whole mess has given me. Yesterday I had a list of "to do" items. Then that list got blown up because I discovered one of the kids left a crayon in their pockets and ruined about $400 of my clothes and their clothes. In the past my focus would've been on the money, replacing the clothes, salvaging the clothes. Everything else would've fallen off the table.

But... I had promised S we would go bowling. So I engaged his help in salvaging the clothes which was full of fun things (at least fun to a five year old) like stirring clothes in a sink of detergents, pulling clothes out sopping wet and getting water everywhere, mixing different solvents together, etc... In the past I would've freaked out at all the water he got everywhere, but now? Water can be mopped up. Messes can be cleaned. And then after that we still went bowling. The rest of the list didn't get done, but who cares... a dirty bathroom will still be dirty tomorrow and the world won't end.
Well I have not had time to sit down and think about the letter due to life just getting in the way and being extremely tired. My W's lawyer is taking the D full throttle ahead so there is really no turning back now and my W is on board. Her L tried to do something sneaky things in the papers and she really is trying to screw me in the D. Wow how people change. This is really going to make it hard to write this letter but I will still try.
Of course I hope you understand that your W is likely being "coached" by the L, or the L is being aggressive for the benefit of the client.

If your L let you know that your W is probably going to go for full custody, child support, spousal support, 50% of the assets + an additional 10% for emotional harm, plus your pension plus her L fees... do you think that you would not get excited to go for full custody, a cash buyout of your W.

It's the nature of the "beast" preying on our fears. It's their job and how the system works and many people buy into it. They (the clients) are human. And by moving swiftly, it's easy to keep an already off balance opponent in the defense. What you and your L can do is ensure due diligence and take as much time as alloted to ensure everything is considered. It may cost a little more for that service, but what is more important? Saving money or ensuring a fair split?

I am glad to know you are still going to try to write the letter. Again, let us know when you have it completed or have any further questions about it.
I know its the nature of the beast unfortunately. My W is not being quite that mean as you describe above but still I think what she has asked for is ridiculous. My W hired some rookie L that I'm sure is hungry to pay his law school bills and made many mistakes in the documents according to my L who has been at this for a while. I at least feel that my lawyer wants for the best for both because he encourage me to work on things if my W was open to it a month ago and is pushing for mediation even though her L sounded pushing in the email my L forwarded me. Her L sounds just cut throat and filed papers after my W was not sure what she was doing.

This all just [censored] and I'm back to having problems sleeping at night on top of my 2.5 year old S refusing to stay in bed when he wakes up at night. Oh the joys of life. I have to admit my vacation in March is sorely needed as I'm just plain wore out.

I'm probably going to end up short selling my upside down house when this is all done. This is all too much fun.

Why do people think D is the answer. All it causes is stress, anger, resentment, loss of income, grief, and on and on. I'm reading the book How to improve your marriage without talking about it. It like it so far and will continue to read even though my is ending because I want to continue to improve.

I got a new "Big Boy Bed" for my son so when I get him back we will see how that goes.

I got mail from my W which was copies of more papers telling us about the required classes we have to take for the D. Add that to the list.
Well my W came and get her stuff out of the garage and house. I helped her with some of it even though it felt like the saddest thing ever. There was so much stuff I put some stuff in my car and went to the new place she will be living. It was hard when my son is trying to help my W and watching this. I went to her new place to see where it was so I know. She did say thank you for helping her. For some reason her scandalous Halloween costume was out on the railing, that was surprising to say the least. Her alcohol was on the counter which tells me she is not slowing down on the drinking. I really don't know who my W is anymore because this is the complete opposite person that I married.

I asked her if she really wanted to do this and all she said was pretty much and then moved on to moving some stuff and avoided the topic. I will write the letter when I get time (have my S now). I'm not sure were she is going with her life but it seems to me she is following her girlfriend's path that is recently divorced almost exactly. This girlfriend just ended her 2nd marriage and is partying with my W and they are doing many of the same things together. I know this is typical for a WAS but I don't see her wanting to go back to the morals and lifestyle we once had. She is living the lifestyle of her father and some of her brothers which is fine but to be honest it is not a lifestyle I want to live.

My S said something about living at Grandpa's house and she said "he*l no, he doesn't even want to live there". That was surprising although I know he is not really happy with his situation either. I know this is all random info but I just recounting what was said. Not sure what else to say. I'm working on me and reading How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It as it is a really good book as well. I see my W and me in many of the things it describes. It maybe to late but I will still learn and improve from it.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Well my W came and get her stuff out of the garage and house. I helped her with some of it even though it felt like the saddest thing ever.

Ouch...it IS sad. But she feels it's her "task" or mission now, and you must leave her to it.

You said you had found a "pro-marriage mc" but your w "refused to go." I went to several mc's with h as I told you. They validated my perspective and that changed nothing for my sitch b/c my h decided that b/c I'm a L, I had "brainwashed ALL the mc's" and he refused to go anymore.

I found a pro-m mc, and I went by myself for a solid year Before h even met the guy. They met a few times on their own, and got along quite well (I found that having a man counselor was good for my h, btw).

Anyhow, who said you cannot go without her? I found it very helpful to ME to go on my own and get a pro-marriage perspective even in the face of the odds...with or without h, I wanted to know I had done right by my kids/marriage vows, no matter the outcome. I knew I'd have no regrets. IF I'd stopped going b/c h would not go, that means HE gets to dictate how I behave? Nope...or that HE decides when I, 25, quit? Nope...

I choose how I respond and I choose IF and WHEN to quit...


There was so much stuff I put some stuff in my car and went to the new place she will be living. It was hard when my son is trying to help my W and watching this. I went to her new place to see where it was so I know.

She did say thank you for helping her.

that's^^^ a positive in my mind. You MAY be learning to detach. Earlier you seemed to think detachment meant giving up. It does not.

It means letting go of results so much (be your best self and leave the results up to God) and it means

NOT ATTACHING your happiness or self worth or thoughts,

to someone else's actions or words.



For some reason her scandalous Halloween costume was out on the railing, that was surprising to say the least. Her alcohol was on the counter which tells me she is not slowing down on the drinking. I really don't know who my W is anymore because this is the complete opposite person that I married.


ALL of this^^^ is just more of the same old YOU being judgmental.

The "Scandalous" outfit, the "not slowing down" on the booze. Yes I have a low tolerance for alcoholISM too--but I don't spend my energy judging others or commenting. This is so NOT IN YOUR CONTROL

but you keep hammering at the wall with your stick. Let it go.


I asked her if she really wanted to do this and all she said was pretty much and then moved on to moving some stuff and avoided the topic.


B/c you thought she'd suddenly change her mind? During the move? That undermines the effect of you assisting her...

What you resist, persists.
Stop asking her or pursuing. Leave her to her "mission" to see if the grass is greener on the other side and to feel free of your control.

Snowman, to me, you come across as critical and controlling. In her mind, she
can only be herself if she is free of you. In her mind, she wants to know what choices she would or could make if you were not making or judging them all.

She wants to KNOW who she is...that is how she strikes me. Is she handling this in the healthiest way possible? No she is not.

Are you? NO you are not. And you are the only person here, so we can only give YOU advice on how YOU behave...

Let her go find herself. Stop cornering her or making ultimatums and please stop discussing her with family and friends.

You are making the "road home" rockier and more twisted, Not "paved and smooth".

Though I understand why,

the reality is you sound too pissed off at her

for her to believe you two could ever get past all this.






I will write the letter when I get time (have my S now). I'm not sure were she is going with her life but it seems to me she is following her girlfriend's path that is recently divorced almost exactly.


^^^STOP THE NEGATIVE PROJECTIONS...they help NO ONE, including you. They hurt your cause, they hurt your m, they hurt you and they hurt your son indirectly...

just stop assuming the worst of her. Stop expecting the worst...

prepare for it but hope for the best. And learn to feel happy. You sound so miserable -- was that one of the things your w said bothered her?

I never got a clear answer from you on what SHE said your issues were...you said she "retracted some" and I can only assume that was in reaction to you confronting...so I don't count it as a retraction at all.

The content and tone of what she said offered you valuable information.

How do you feel about how you used that information?





----is typical for a WAS but I don't see her wanting to go back to the morals and lifestyle we once had.


b/c?? She's now amoral? Immoral?

Were you living a repressed judgemental lifestyle?

Why would she NOT want it again if she was so happy in it?

Does this attitude of yours --implying she's immoral/amoral, work for you?


She is living the lifestyle of her father and some of her brothers which is fine but to be honest it is not a lifestyle I want to live.

1) you don't KNOW what she is doing so how can you assess? Just more negative projections... (I doubt you knew her dad/brothers that well either, but that's just a guess.)

2) it's NOT "fine" with you, and that is abundantly clear.

Why the pretense of tolerance?




---- I know this is all random info but I just recounting what was said. Not sure what else to say. I'm working on me and reading How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It as it is a really good book as well. I see my W and me in many of the things it describes. It maybe to late but I will still learn and improve from it.


that's ^^^ great to do now. I think it's better late than never, and I don't know that it's too late anyhow.

But stay in your sandbox and do your own work;

stay out of hers and let her find her way.

DETACH--we hammer it for a reason....here's a short piece on it. There is a lot of info on this site about it...



This was originally posted by Peanut.
============
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we say or do things that undermine accomplishing our goals.

We can NOT control the actions of another. But We are responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.

If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals. On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’ It is the natural acceptance that I alone am responsible for how I act.

I cannot control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
I will consider going to a MC for myself although it is terribly expensive but probably worth it for me. I will ponder this.

Yes, I need to continue to detach. I agree.

I knew you would harp on me for saying stuff about the costume and alcohol, I could almost picture you writing what you did in my head like a subconscious of sorts smile.

No I didn't think she would all the sudden change her mind, it was my foolish natural tendency that got the better of me. I know I have a control issue and I don't deny it but I was not asking her the question to control her. How did you get what I said as discussing it with her family, I didn't discuss it with her family. I just restated what my W said.

I will admit I expect the worst because that's what I have got. I have prepared for the worst but I'm also getting the worst. I will work on stopping my bad assumptions.

I will get back to you on the issues she told me long ago, I promise. Me acting miserable was not one of them, the opposite, she was miserable according to her. At the beginning I didn't use the information properly and I know this but things were said about every aspect of life like I never did anything right so its hard to believe that everything that was said was true.

I'm not sure she was happy with our morals that we follow per our religion and ourselves. She even has said she doesn't want to stay together because our religion says so which I never mentioned to her. The attitude question is rhetorical and we both know the answer.

Actually I know her brothers and father quite well. The pretense of tolerance is because I feel that I would have to tolerate it if we got back together, sorry.

Man, I just helped my W move her stuff who is divorcing me and I feel pummeled here. I'm honest in my feelings and words here with you so I guess I deserve it as you are honest with me. Thanks.
I'm sorry you feel pummeled. I really am.

All in all you do sound as if you are trying to wrap your brain around some crazy stuff and it does not make sense to you AND it hurts. I get that from your post and I feel for you. I spent A LOT of time trying to figure out my h or his choices for a few YEARS of my life...(never again-not b/c I don't care but b/c I have detached even while reconciled. IT's a lifestyle that protects our own happiness. Make sense?)

A part of me wishes I could get in your head while you are with your wife and stop you from spiralling...the whole negative projections, expecting the worst, etc.AND saying that's what you have gotten...it's not the "worst"...

The worst is her leaving you for OM, telling you she never loved you, son is not yours, she lies and says you beat her, others believe her, she files for divorce and wants it all and tells everyone you stank in bed too...

so no, she's not giving you the worst. See? cool

You have more hope than you can see right now. Your pain fogs it up. But it's there.

Stay the course.
25yearsmlc-Thanks, it helps sometimes when you share what you went through as I guess it just makes it more real for me like I'm sharing with someone that understands.

That is funny your say that you wish you could be in my head because I was thinking the same thing today as far as wanting you to be in my head or there when I interact with my W.

Quote:

The worst is her leaving you for OM, telling you she never loved you, son is not yours, she lies and says you beat her, others believe her, she files for divorce and wants it all and tells everyone you stank in bed too...


As far as I know she is leaving me for OM but I stopped trying to figure it out. She did day she doesn't love me and even one time told me she f'ing hates me and said she doesn't love me and is not physically attracted to me (that one hurt). She has lied to me numerous times but not about beating and I have no idea what she is really saying to others and I don't care. She might be saying I stank in bed for all I know but oh well.

I know it is not the worst and she is being reasonable with me on things so I get your point.

I agree my pain or feelings fog it up. I'm trying to stay the course.

I can tell you the control thing is a family issue for sure. My whole family was together this evening for dinner and we outwardly joked about my mother who just turned the lights off. She always harps on us to turn the lights on and controls the thermostat and many other things. I know those sound petty but all of us know my mother is always asking questions to the nth degree or tries to control things and us siblings know that we all got some of the control from her. My own BILs know it and we outwardly joke about it. I'm not blaming my mother I'm just telling you this so you know where the habits may of come from.

Anyway, I'm doing fine as I'm learning to detach even when I slip up. I'm not hurt nearly as bad as months ago. It gets me for a moment but then I post here partially to clear my emotions and to get good feedback from everyone. Thanks for the support and guidance smile.
I feel for ya Snow - hang in there!
I have a dry sense of humor and use sarcasm to make points.


I hope you realize I was doing that when I said "it could be worse"...(she could also have taken a knife to your manliness. That'd be worse).

So that was my point.

Snowman, you need to rent some comedies to watch or see a live comedian. If you are in the LA area, come see me - but you have to promise to laugh even if you hate it, that's the vow I require...

my h has heard my jokes 100 times and laughs HARD and on cue.

that's my love language I guess.

I'll post more later but wanted you to know I was kidding. (went over like a lead balloon though..yikes, am I losing my touch?)
25yearsmlc-Sorry I misread the humor, I usually am cracking jokes all the time as well but this place seems so serious all the time. Trust me this situation is not who I am. I love to crack jokes, smile, laugh, and be happy. You could ask my true friends and family that really know me. I do love me a good comedy and light-hearted fun. This is the true me. It would be a 12 hour drive to LA so I don't think I will be making it anytime soon although we will be doing Disneyland this summer.

My love language is words as well with physical touch a close second. I just want to hug my W or something when I see her but resist with all my might.

By all means use humor with me as that is definitely a connection point for me.

Thanks Grmpy_Mnky for the support.
Well my W just picked up my S. I have had him since last Friday evening. My W had a midterm after work so I got him until she was done. She came over and I asked how the test went. She said pretty good. She asked about a FSA card that is not around anymore. I told her about our S's potty training progress while we got our S' shoes on. She said she didn't feel very good and I asked why. She said she had a headache. She has always had headache problems and pretty much gets them everyday, not sure what the deal is with that. They then got in m W's car and I gave my S a hug and kiss goodbye. I won't see him until next Monday, suckey.

I have not heard from my L about updated papers and I'm not in a hurry to do so. My W wants one of our nice LCD TV's which is fine and expected. I told her earlier in the week we would get it to her. I booked a Disneyland trip with my family last night. My S was excited about that and keep saying Disneyland.

I thought today how it was ironic that I was catering to my W's school schedule and how we will always have to deal with planning things for the rest of our lives which makes divorce so silly. I talked to a guy at work about it(I know I'm not suppose to) and he mentioned the same thing when he was having difficulties in his marriage and is why he decided to suck it up and work on his marriage.

I'm sitting here trying to think of all the things my W said way back when the bomb was dropped and my mind just spins but here is what I can piece together:
-Don't like her friends or hang out with them
-Don't appreciate her cooking
-I won't get it and I never will. She claims her counselor said that as well
-Always in the basement
-I think she said something about she is tired of just being a mom when she gets home.
-Something about my family being more important than hers or her not feeling included with my sisters. Don't recall exactly.

There is more but I really can't recall it all. I could type responses to each but I will let others analyze these things and ask me questions first.

I'm learning to find calmness in my life. I have done good at not talking as much about my stitch with those who know about it. I'm working on being the best dad I can be with my son. I have been very cordial with my W and not really fought with her on the D stuff. I'm working to have fun with friends and family. I need to exercise more and probably get out more when I don't have my S but I have improved on that. I trying and learning to find positive in my life. I pray with my S before bed who repeats the words I say so enjoy doing it with him so he can learn. I'm just rambling I guess but this is what I have to say right now.
Update-I have not heard from my L about getting revised papers from her L. Not sure what is going on there and I'm in no hurry to ask. My W texted me asking if I could bring her the TV tomorrow. It seems really weird to me that my W that is divorcing me is asking me to deliver the TV and stand to her. I will probably do it because I don't want to deal with her unknown friends coming over to get it and I don't think anyone on both sides of the family is comfortable doing it.

What do you think, should I deliver the TV to her or is this just helping my W move farther away from me? Confused.
Where have all my faithful posters gone? I need your advice and help.
That's confusing.I would want to be her friend and help her out, Having said that, perhaps you can tell her yes but it will have to be on your schedule becuase you are busy with friends.

I know it's tough - hang in there!
Originally Posted By: Snowman

What do you think, should I deliver the TV to her or is this just helping my W move farther away from me? Confused.




What would be your motivation for helping ?

What would be your motivation for NOT helping ?

Is it HER TV ?


I'm not sure I understand the confusion here.

If it is her TV, you not helping her to get it , would come across as you trying to punish her.

If it isn't hers, then...



I'm not saying to deliver it either. If it is hers, and you don't feel as if you can be positive during this, then by all means, don't be a part of that.

If it is a chance for you to SHOW her that you are different....then why not ????
I guess it is her TV since we have 2 and she doesn't have one now. She is on her way over to help me lift it. My S will have to watch as my W moves out more stuff which I'm not happy about but part of the deal I guess. I will be positive during this. I think if I didn't help her she would think I was punishing her so I will do it. I guess this is a chance to show that I'm different. I already did that last time when she came over to get other stuff so might as well keep doing it.
Update-My W came over with a girlfriend and her husband to get the TV and entertainment center. My W grabbed some other random things throughout the house. This is the first time I had ever met this girlfriend or the husband. I actually like my W's new friend and she was very easy to chat with despite the awkward situation. My W's girlfriend talked to me about the clothes steamer I had and she even made fun of my W for how many clothes that she had. I made a joke of how many garbage bags it took to get rid of them and we both laughed because my W said she donated most of them and doesn't have lots of clothes anymore. My W took a night stand that I sanded and painted dark black years back. I was glad to give it to her.

I actually had a good time chatting with my W and her friends. I think I would get along great with her new friend if given the chance. I'm still growing happier everyday and letting go of the things that just don't matter. I'm working on my letter to my W framed by what KD mentioned on page 5 or 6. It is hard to focus and write the letter as my mind spins but I'm working to get it done. I will keep you posted.

I'm not sure were the revised D papers are and I'm not in a hurry to get them. I have not asked my W about them or made my L get them. I'm not sure what is going on but I'm just trying to be the best me.

Tonight my S got the bad stomach flu and did some pretty good throwing up, poor little guy. I contacted my W about it and let her know. We figure out our schedule tomorrow in regards to our S and I kept her posted on his progress. This is another time I wish my W was here so we could take care of my S as a couple should. I have had very positive interactions with my W not about us but just about life's things. I will continue to find the best in me and my happiness. Thanks for the support smile.
Well, it feels like I'm falling off the grid and help train here. The D papers have still not been finalized even though my L emailed hers and my W's L said he would get them revised. Mean while we just continue on living as if we are already divorce. Things are very amenable and I just keep working on me. All R talk has been stopped since the beginning of January. I have been able to pretty much live my life with out obsessing about the situation or letting it eat me away. Not sure if I have just moved on or finally finding some happiness in my life or what?

A lady from our church came to visit my W and I informed her that she no longer lives here. It was somewhat crappy to say but I did it without being shameful about it as I would in the past. I really have learned that being mad gets me nothing of worth so its not worth being mad. I have read a ton, thought a ton, learned a ton, and hope to progress a ton this year.

I still worry about my 2.5 year old S and the somewhat bouncing back and forth lifestyle. He has done pretty well but I'm not sure what the long term effects will be.

I continue to learn about other peoples R problems unsolicited and I usually put a positive spin on things for them. Tomorrow is Valentines day and I don't have one to speak of. My W would just get mad if I did anything kind of like our anniversary. I'm at peace with that (doesn't mean I give up, just at peace with it).

Not sure what stage I'm at now? Any help or advice from my faithful DBers?
can't say what stage you are in, but you sound a lot calmer and more centered.

A part of you is realizing that your life will not end, no matter what happens.

At first that can alarm you, b/c you fear you may think you no longer care.

But my bet is, it's a healthy detachment and doesn't have to be confused with apathy.

We know you care. And you are putting the right focus on your son.

I think the more you build on these momentary bonding experiences, like interacting with the friends or uniting to support son (flu's can be very dangerous for little ones),
the better. So carry on and see what happens.

You are building a foundation for your future r,

no matter what that means, you will have to communicate for life.

Most of your post is positive progress, imo.
I think it sounds like you're doing great.

2 loving parents in different homes is better than 2 crappy parents in the same home.
I am more calmed and centered for sure. I concur that it is healthy detachment and I don't want it confused for apathy as many of us do.

My 2.8 year old S can drive me crazy but I love him so much. He is a true little boy that loves to test the boundaries like 2 year olds do. I have read Love and Logic Magic for Early Childhood and have been applying its principles. It definitely is working with him and I plan to continue.

I have always tried to be kind in my communication with my W because I know I will have to communicate with her for the rest of my life.

Labug-I agree that 2 loving parents in different homes is better than 2 crappy parents in the same home but my W used that exact phrase in one of our early R discussion as a reason to separate or D and said that why her parents should have D earlier. I don't think we were crappy parents which I know you are not implying but I just don't like how the world uses that as an excuse to D or separate. It's the classic excuse for not wanting to address their problems in their R and using that excuse as why.

Anyway, we had a great time eating Valentine candies that my S got and my parents dropped by a Valentine's package for my S as well. I love to just hear my S laugh and smile. It is simple but all that's required. Learning to appreciate the small simple things in life.
Snowman, I definitely don't think that should be used as an excuse. We treat marriage and bringing up children far too cavalierly. But if it's inevitable that the D is going to happen it does no good to beat yourself up. You've given it your best shot.

There is nothing like the sound of a 2 yr old laughing.
Well folks I'm still here and still not divorced. I have no idea how or why. I have not talked about or pushed the subject with my W. My L emailed her L about getting the revised papers which her L claims he is working on but it has been weeks. I'm in no hurry on my end as I don't want a D nor the bill that will comes with it. I have been working still on being the best me I can be. I have had some great times with family and friends as well as my S. No R talk has happened for quite some time and pretty much most of our exchanges with our S have been good that I can think of. We just threw a big 90 year birthday party for my only alive Grandparent and I made a picture slideshow from all the various family pics that was contributed. Man my Grandma is amazing and healthy as an ox.

Anyway, life is going on. I have a vacation coming up in 1.5 weeks and working on tough things at work but getting through them. I will be honest and say that I sure am missing some intimacy after this long without it, man! I working on keeping my spirits high. I continue to read other peoples stitches and see all the phases I went through while reading others. It's crazy how lost and out of control we get when this roller coaster ride hits us.

Not sure where my ride is ending but I will be the best me while on this ride. Keep up the good work DBers as you are a amazing group of people that are helping in the most important aspect of life!
Update-My cousin's cousin tragically died at 36 years old leaving a W and 3 kids and the funeral is on Saturday. Despite him being my cousin's cousin we know him fairly well and it is just life stopping for something like this to happen. My W knows about the death and is deeply sadden. She even wanted to go to the funeral but that would be way awkward at this point.

Anyway that discussion sparked the discussion if she really wanted to get work on things and not get a divorce:
W: Honestly these is a part of me that does but I don't want to get either of hopes up
W: If we do we have to take it slow
Me: I want to take it slow. We didn't get here over night.
Me: I will be honest, I have read more books and done more self analysis then ever before. I have started my letter to you and I plan on finishing it. I have a lot to share about what I have learned if your are willing to listen. I don't know what the first step is but I would like to take it not worrying about hopes either way. One thing I have noticed now is when I talk to you it makes me smile.
W: I Know. I think we talk more now than we ever used too and get along better when we do.
Me. I totally agree.
W: Maybe when you get back from your trip we can talk more about it.

We went back and forth a little more about what my S was done which was fun and end the conversation. She then texted me later and asked if I would email her some of the books I have read and I said sure. She then chatted with me more about what our S was doing.

I don't know what to think and I hope it is not a knee jerk reaction from the death in the family but I will work on it. I just got the revised D papers a day ago to finalize things so this is interesting timing. I would have freaked out if I were the old me but I'm all good and have something to smile about even more.

This has been a learning experience like no other. I will stay cool, calm, and collective. Time to take it slow and not push at all.
Really good conversation and yes, you really have to take it very very slow. Take a look at Crimsons thread for some real time insight into the dynamics at play.

"We went back and forth a little more about what my S was done which was fun and end the conversation. She then texted me later and asked if I would email her some of the books I have read and I said sure. She then chatted with me more about what our S was doing."

Be careful about which books you share. If she sees things that cause her to believe you are using tactics to manipulate her it will backfire big time. Just be careful.

"I don't know what to think and I hope it is not a knee jerk reaction from the death in the family but I will work on it."

It may very well be. Life is short and when tragedies happen, people tend to pause and reevaluate their choices.

"This has been a learning experience like no other. I will stay cool, calm, and collective. Time to take it slow and not push at all."

Good for you. This is a delicate dance. You've been practicing and now it is showtime!

Best of luck to you!
Well I'm back again. I got back from my vacation in Hawaii which I will admit was awesome and sorely needed. I talked to my S and W pretty much everyday. Things seem to be progressing in some shape or form although I'm not sure where but I'm keeping my cool. My D papers were nearly revised and ready for final signature so this is all just a little crazy to say the least but no big deal.

I got my wife some things in Hawaii because I know she wanted something bad and I even asked her what she wanted. I gave it to her when I got home and she was very appreciative. Our conversations with each other have been very amicable but none have really been about our R. She had texted me pics of our S on my trip as well as pics of her amazing cupcakes she makes. I said when do I get mine and she said when I get back. She tells me when I get back that she had given them all to her coworkers but she will make a new batch a different kind. I said great.

She signed my S up for soccer while I was gone which she told me about and I thought was great but when I get home she informs me that she volunteered to coach as well because no one else did. I thought was strange as well but then she proceeds to tell me she will need my help and that she will be gone for 2-4 of the games. My blood started to boil as I didn't feel it appropriate that she commit us to coach and commit me to coach when she knew she would be gone and not even tell me on top of the fact of the mess we are in. I tried to express my concern while still staying positive but she was at work so the conversation was short. I emailed my true concerns that I was a little blindsided by this and confused as she had stated we were taking things slow. She emailed me back saying she was doing this for our S because she wanted to and was not planning on having me do it with her and that she only needed me to cover 2 games (the 2 games that she will be in London on her trip). She also said she wanted to do this because her family didn't do it for her when she was young. I said I can understand that and that remember my parents be there for things like this and that I would support here in this. I want our S to play for sure but I was just surprised about this whole thing. I think we are good on this for now.

I asked her if she want to come over to hang out before her trip and she said she would try but she would be very busy planning her trip and packing which was understandable. She called the night she might come over to let me know she probably would not make and and I said thats ok that I understand but to text me when she was done with her trip planning anyway to see. She texted me late saying she was not going to make it so I jokingly said that thats ok she can now gets to make me dinner and cupcakes. She said oh really and I said just kidding but it would be nice. She told me she could maybe do that one day. I asked her if maybe means that she doesn't really want to do it or I'm just reading more into it (this was texts by the way). She told me I was reading too much into it. I said ok cool, just want to clarify because texting it is hard to tell.

Anyway this is where my stitch is at in the scheme of things. I guess this is somewhat piecing with little to no direction but I'm letting her take the lead as much as possible.

Any advice fellow DBer's at this point? I have kind of been off the radar for a while.
Just a couple things, Snowman.

First, the dinner and cupcakes was funny... until you pushed a bit and she said not to read into it... if you give her the idea and have no expectations, then maybe she will... one day... when she's "liking" you...

My W at one point offered to do things for me, like cut my hair (she used to buzz my hair every few months)... but she never did... and then... sometimes she would make banana bread "for the kids" and send it with them to visit me...

Also, my W still "volunteers" me for stuff without asking me first. It's uncomfortable to say no, but I'm just feeling like I have to be more firm with those boundaries.

A simple statement reminding them to ask first when those things come up might help. I don't know, I don't have enough experience yet to know it's working for me.
Kaffe thanks for the feedback. I didn't mean to push it but it was a text conversation so it hard to know really what a person is saying with no tone or body language to go with the words and I told that to her when I asked the question. She understood as far as I can tell.

I think I'm still somewhat competing with OM as I did the cell phone record check (I know) and there is a number that I know that still pops up but nothing like it use to and action on the cell phone as calmed way down.

I did tell her about the book "working on your marriage without talking about it" as she asked me about any books I have read and said she would get a copy(she has a nook).

She ran a half marathon yesterday and sent me a pic from a hike she went on. That is the first time in a long time she has done that. I was so surprised. She told me the run was hard because it was into the wind and I chatted with her briefly and let her talk to our S.

I don't know but things seem to get a little better each day. We still have not talk like she said once I got back from my trip but we will I figure. We will see what next week brings.

Any other advice DBer's? I know your out there somewhere.
Snowman -

Yep. Our situations seems to be very similar at the moment, but I think you may be a few weeks behind me. Granted, in the grand schema of things here that means squat. Funny - I bought my wife a copy of "How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" too. She told me that she didn't like it at first....too "scientific". However, she did read all of it and we have talked about it in brief.

I sympathize with you greatly in this limbo of "maybe she will maybe she won't". However I am taking solace in the fact that at least my wife and I are getting along together...very well, actually. That gives me hope - and I think that each positive interaction is slowly.....let me say that again.....sloooowly helping tip things a bit. We have spent a lot of time together with our son recently and we seem to be really enjoying it. No hand holding or other intimacy, but there a have been a few nice hugs. Small, but I didn't see that as possible 5 months ago.

I am probably not the best person to give this advice, but do the best you can to compartmentalize the legal sh*t from all of the other positive things going on with your relationship. It is VERY hard for me to do because the two things are very related. Nonetheless, treat them as two separate things. It has helped me to never, ever discuss the legal crap with my w. I think that would make her feel some kind of pressure that right now she just doesn't need. My time is almost up, my D will be final 5/8 - so I know the day is coming when I will have to ask her about what's on her mind. Until then, I am content to take my small steps in progress. I would suggest you do the same.

Bond with your son. Do as much with him as you can. That has helped me, him AND my w's perception of me as a father (I think). That has been one real benefit from this whole ordeal - my life with my son (will be 2 in 2 weeks) is great. That has helped bridge the back and forth gap between two homes. It doesn't stop hurting, leaving him behind with my w....and I know it hurts for her too. But I honestly think that he has (and will) play a role in the restoration of our marriage.

Sounds like you are making some progress. Take your time and enjoy it. When you are on your own, enjoy the solitude....if you pine for you wife or son it turns to loneliness and that is a hole you want to stay out of.

Crimson
Update and vent- Well my W and I still have not talked about any R talk even though she said she would like to after I got back from my trip. I'm so confused and lost by this.

Venting-I went to the soccer coaches meeting with my W that signed up to be the coach and informed me later that she will be gone for sure 2 of the games and maybe 2 others for races she will be running. I also ending up chasing my S around the whole time and didn't get to hear anything of the meeting. On top of that I played soccer for many many years and my W never played so I find it funny she is going to coach and the whole rest of the room was men that we coaching.

How h*ll can someone that is divorcing me and then say that they want to maybe work on things but won't talk about it and ask me to coach with them or for them? Things have been very amenable but this just still bothers me. My W also informed me tonight she has signed up for like 6 or more other races. I love that she is doing her running that she loves but I first thought in my head, man I must just be the babysitter. My W asked to bring our running stroller (that my sister let us borrow) to the soccer meeting and my W was dressed in her running clothes at the meeting. I will admit her running was a point of contention as I always felt like that all she wanted to do. I'm somewhat of a homebody so I was ok with it but this much running on top of her work, school, trips, soccer coaching, and whatever else is crazy to me.

I want to be supportive and work on our M if she is open too but she keeps saying she is too busy at work to even reply to the one email I sent just asking if we were going to talk since I'm back from my trip now. Sorry but using I'm busy at work to even respond to an email for days is a lame excuse for me. I asked her tonight after the meeting and delivering the stroller to her if we could talk and she said she had been so busy at work again so she didn't have time to reply. I said I'm her now so we could discuss whatever. She said not in front of our S which is ok I guess but I didn't plan on fighting with her or even say much. I said well you are welcome to call or come over anytime when you want to talk. I know I have probably broken the rules and it seems like I'm pursuing but really I just want to talk if that's what she wants to do. I could sit here and guess why she has not yet but I'm done doing that.

Ok, am I being irrational about the soccer thing or what as well as all the running races? I love my S and love to watch him but not to just be a babysitter for all her fun and to fill in for a responsibility that she signed up for without asking me about it. I guess we will see what happens after some more time. Vent done.

I got some relief by going to a movie with a friend. It was a comedy so I feel better but I had to get that off my chest. Let me know what you all think.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
I guess we will see what happens after some more time.



Hmmmmm, that doesn't sound like much of a plan. Maybe that's part of the problem? confused


Starsky
Starsky, it is not much of a plan but my wife texted me today and finally said lets met Saturday to chat about things. I don't have expectations at this point as I shouldn't and have learned my lesson about applying any pressure so I will see where the conversation goes.

I'm thinking about finishing the letter I have written and giving it to her that I was recommended to day further back in my stitch. What do you think?

Any other advice for my upcoming conversation?
Regarding the letter, SM... what you do with it will be up to you.

Why I say this is, you could finish it and send it to your W before the chat, or not... you could finish it now and send it after the chat... you could wait to the chat to finish it... you could finish it and never send it...

But in the end, if you do end up finishing it, as mentioned, short, concise, clear, from the heart, honest, not focused on her, rather what you have learned, would have done different, etc...

But...

The chat could be a good one... or it could be a bad one... that's up to you... how you listen to what she has to say and whether you react or become defensive...

She asked to chat to you... it wasn't necessarily an open invitation to chat AT HER... even if she asks for your opinion, your best response is that she wanted to chat and anything she says to you, you need to process and think about...

validate, validate, validate... even if you disagree.

Even if she appears positive in the conversation, ANYTHING you say, no matter your good intentions, could very likely be taken the wrong way and could lead to her spewing...

Remember how your last conversations went... do not make the same mistakes...

Be positive... be on your best behaviour... be looking good (but not over done) and well trimmed...

And if things feel like they are going south... KNOW (and practice in a mirror if you have to) what your exit strategy will be... How you can politely and respectfully end things so that you don't risk putting your foot in your mouth...

That's my opinion... your mileage may vary...
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Update and vent- Well my W and I still have not talked about any R talk even though she said she would like to after I got back from my trip. I'm so confused and lost by this.

what's confusing? She said she'd like to talk but then didn't. So she changed her mind. This has happened before. Do not follow up. LET HER...


Venting-I went to the soccer coaches meeting with my W that signed up to be the coach and informed me later that she will be gone for sure 2 of the games and maybe 2 others for races she will be running. I also ending up chasing my S around the whole time and didn't get to hear anything of the meeting. On top of that I played soccer for many many years and my W never played so I find it funny she is going to coach and the whole rest of the room was men that we coaching.


you mean you are angry, not that you "find it funny" correct? Why not say that then? I'm not being petty. I think you have a very passive/aggressive way of communicating and this is a small example.

also, who cares if you had to watch your son while SHE listened to the meeting? One of you had to watch him and one of you had to listen...or one of you could have babysat son...


How h*ll can someone that is divorcing me and then say that they want to maybe work on things but won't talk about it and ask me to coach with them or for them?


b/c she's confused. Lose the anger and see if things clear up for her.


Things have been very amenable but this just still bothers me.


oh...well if things have been "very amenable" BUT this just still bothers you --then by all means stare at what bothers you and focus on the negative...

oh wait, that's backwards. As the DB moderators say, what you focus on tends to expand. Stop being negative and critical. I have to say your posts reek of anger more than anything else.

I KNOW you are in pain. But dang, the need to be "right" and the angry resentment HURTS YOUR CAUSE...

Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? I've asked you this before.

If we sit here and agree with you that your wife is "crazy" and mean or whatever it is you suspect or want us to say

it won't help you decide what to do...
it'll keep you stuck where you are.


My W also informed me tonight she has signed up for like 6 or more other races. I love that she is doing her running that she loves but I first thought in my head, man I must just be the babysitter.

so you do not "love" that she is racing, and doing what she loves. You said you did, but then you inserted the "BUT"...

actually, You resent it. You think it's about you or it takes away from you, instead of her simply needing an outlet UNRELATED to you.

You said you are a homebody. She is a runner. Why is she "wrong" to be different? Why are you "right" to be a homebody?

maybe it's smothering. Maybe she thinks you judge her? Personally, I think running is among the healthiest things she can do.

When she runs, who would YOU prefer to have watching your son? A babysitter? OR would you like to have that much more time with him?

And btw, when you say you are "babysitting"=

but you are actually caring for your own child,

it's called parenting.


My W asked to bring our running stroller (that my sister let us borrow) to the soccer meeting and my W was dressed in her running clothes at the meeting. I will admit her running was a point of contention as I always felt like that all she wanted to do. I'm somewhat of a homebody so I was ok with it but this much running on top of her work, school, trips, soccer coaching, and whatever else is crazy to me.

you said she didn't coach before. You coached. Did she feel neglected by that? (Ever ask her?)

Rather than address this^^ point by point, I'll just say you must lose your scorecard. ANd the controlling stuff pouring out of this post is also not helpful to you or your cause. Stop condemning her choices too. That just forces her to defend them and not reflect on them. Don't say she's "Crazy" b/c a lot of what YOU are posting here is very conflicted and so she could say the same.

"Crazy" is a judgemental word used to deflect from our own work.


I want to be supportive and work on our M if she is open too but



see any pattern to your wording and your approach? See any conditions attached?


she keeps saying she is too busy at work to even reply to the one email I sent just asking if we were going to talk since I'm back from my trip now.


STOP NAGGING HER TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE R...

it cannot possibly help you to nag, email and or ask about "talking".
She knows how to reach you. No more pressure and no more anger. Geez...back off...



Sorry but using I'm busy at work to even respond to an email for days is a lame excuse for me.


OMG - no wonder she does not want to have a relationship talk with you...read what you write here, and try harder to HEAR your tone throughout...


I asked her tonight after the meeting and delivering the stroller to her if we could talk and she said she had been so busy at work again so she didn't have time to reply. I said I'm her now so we could discuss whatever. She said not in front of our S which is ok I guess but I didn't plan on fighting


To be blunter than ever, you must learn to STFU.
did you expect a loving happy conversation, FORCED out of her? She did not want to talk then. WHY do you keep doing what does not work? Once she says "not in front of" Then that is your cue to leave.



with her or even say much. I said well you are welcome to call or come over anytime when you want to talk. I know I have probably broken the rules and it seems like I'm pursuing but really I just want to talk if that's what she wants to do. IT IS NOT WHAT SHE WANTS TO DO OR SHE'D BE DOING IT....

I could sit here and guess why she has not yet but I'm done doing that.


Are you serious? You don't know why she does not want to talk about the r with you? I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

And it does not "SEEM" like you are pursuing. YOU ARE pursuing, and it's really coming off as pushy and needy and angry and clingy,

and is, no offense, such a turn off.

What happened to the plan? The upbeat GAL guy who is warm and pleasant and receptive BUT not pressuring her and NOT judging her?

what about being the best dad you can be and lovingly interacting with son without expectation?

What about losing the anger???? You say you are "not exactly DBing" but Snowman...can you tell me how you have DBd at all?

I am sincerely asking. All I see here is more of the same old you. Where is the progress?


What do YOU feel YOU have learned or changed in YOU these past months? What is it that would make your wife feel

marriage to you from this day forward, would be better/different than before?

If you refuse to answer that question, then this is pointless.



Ok, am I being irrational about the soccer thing or what as well as all the running races?

Yes...actually you seem really controlling and negatively projecting bad about both. Drop it. Why not Be glad she's learning about soccer and NOT running?....you'll have something in common....geez...



I love my S and love to watch him but not to just be a babysitter for all her fun and to fill in for a responsibility that she signed up for without asking me about it.


wtf are you talking about now? Stop saying one thing when you mean another.

I thought you wanted more time with him...but what you really mean is you want to control what SHE does...you are not "supportive" of her running, you resent it. You SAY you want more time with your son but if it benefits her at all, then you don't....


I guess we will see what happens after some more time. Vent done.

I got some relief by going to a movie with a friend. It was a comedy so I feel better but I had to get that off my chest. Let me know what you all think.



well you know what I think.


Hey, Why haven't you written and sent the letter already?

Can I guess why?

was it B/C You got too "Confused" by her (Read, ANGRY) to send it...?

Sorry for the 2 x 4's.

I am sure I also make you angry, but I think you are blowing this big time and you could turn this around.

But you must distinguish between self respect and being prideful,

you must lose your anger from a wounded ego, and recognize the bitter edge in your words....all of which harms your cause.

I'm sure she senses that even more than I do just reading them.

These are choices YOU are making. You sure this is what you really want?
Snowman -

I only post to one other person on this site, after having been a regular here for a few years... I was directed to your thread recently.

I had my head in the sand for a few years, but, I will say this... Once I had the knowledge of infidelity, all bets were off. I immediately went in to plan "PROTECT MY KIDS AND ME".

With that said...

I have no idea if your wife has mental health issues, and quite frankly, if you read this site, WAY TOO MANY LBS's are quick to blame the WAS's actions on the possibility of this.

I think, plain and simple, that your W is a brat.

Couple one brat WAW, w/a LBH who has had very little courage to stand up to her, and...

You have a cheating wife, getting most everything she wants from her husband, while living the life she wants apart, and convenient child care coverage to do so... Oh, and did I mention the finances (from the marital funds, and/or credit available) to do all of this.

You need a solid basis of boundaries.

I just plain don't see any w/you.

I just took the time to read both of your threads. This is a LOT of bratty behavior, allowed by you, w/a lot financed by you.

Boundaries, and a PLAN for moving forward in YOUR way...
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Starsky, it is not much of a plan but my wife texted me today and finally said lets met Saturday to chat about things. I don't have expectations at this point as I shouldn't and have learned my lesson about applying any pressure so I will see where the conversation goes.

I'm thinking about finishing the letter I have written and giving it to her that I was recommended to day further back in my stitch. What do you think?

Any other advice for my upcoming conversation?


Yes, but you're apparently not listening to it. I'm trying to say that "guess we'll see what happens," and "I will see where the conversation goes" are passive, aimless ways to live your life.

YOU NEED A PLAN, and then you need to work like hell to EXECUTE that plan. You are just drifting, hoping for the best. As a wise old poster around here used to say (and I think he was quoting his military commander) "Hope ain't a plan."


Starsky
Mindful

he is trying to come up with a plan that works for HIM...unlike your situation, Snowman sees the OM as a waning matter.

Not a dealbreaker for him. Not yet anyhow.

HOw is his wife being "bratty?" Is there evidence of that on this other thread?

What I see here is so different than what you see.

But that's the value of board. Different opinions...different viewpoints.

I sure don't think his wife is all wrong the way you seem to be suggesting.

As for boundaries, Snowman violates hers by constantly pushing on her when she asks him not to. What about that?
Hey, 25...

Yes, differing opinions are the beauty of this board! And, I'll be the first to admit that mine aren't perfect. I will say, though, that I'm usually watchful for transferring my own personal story into someone else s life/situation... But, I'm not always successful!

I think his wife is just wrong, wrong, wrong... but, she wouldn't be ALL wrong if he set some darn boundaries/expectations of her. Snowman doesn't lead his family. He lets the wife lead, usually on her most recent whim.

I read both threads. Mostly, just his posts.

Brats have high levels of expectations, and have no regard for those providing the service/good/feeling.

Just a few examples that I can remember:
His wife moved out w/their son, into a "room" in a shared home. He let her.
His wife has expected him to finance most of her new lifestyle. He has.
He "exposes" her infidelity, and continuously finds more evidence of it, but still pays her cell phone bill.
She plans a single woman vacation on a weekend/week that she has her son, then "fills him in" after the fact, that he's in charge of the son. He agrees.
And, how about the tuition money/loan, etc...? EEK

I'm sure he's contributed to their breakdown. He needles her for a new status of them, hoping for one that he likes better than the present. But...

Something tells me if he just stood up to her, and for their family, she might just find him desirable again!


His wife
Originally Posted By: mindfull
Hey, 25...

Yes, differing opinions are the beauty of this board! And, I'll be the first to admit that mine aren't perfect. I will say, though, that I'm usually watchful for transferring my own personal story into someone else s life/situation... But, I'm not always successful!

same here.


I think his wife is just wrong, wrong, wrong...

To me that statement typifies his attitude and has backfired repeatedly.

I don't believe She is "wrong/wrong/wrong" b/c no situation is so black and white unless she's 100% evil. Snowman has sounded incredibly critical to me.

Since an affair in the past, or a waning one, is NOT a dealbreaker for him

why declare her "Wrong" 3 times? He wants to be the better choice.

What is he supposed to DO with that statement? Feel "right but powerless" b/c she is just wrong/wrong/wrong =so that means he is stuck...can't do a thing b/c his wife is just wrong, wrong, wrong...

I'm also the sister of a woman who is married to a controlling judgemental man who has indirectly eaten away at her joi de vivre for decades.

I wish she'd leave him. He's not kind to her unless he gets something in return, which he measures like Snowman. Which means he's not kind to her actually, just "trades" with her. He's also very selfish and

he sees HER behavior as black and white (as you see Snowman's wife) but HIS behavior is justified and nuanced, and always always explainable. (This reminds me of Snowman. I don't know your situation so won't go there).

Maybe when I see "wrong/wrong/wrong" written 3 times it's just too big a turn off for me and I hear my idiot brother in law talking.

Snowman has flaws and a role here, OTHER than not setting boundaries,

which you don't seem to see, at all. True? What role do you think HE has other than "not standing up to her"? And when you say "boundaries" I think you ought to be specific.

Are you telling him to issue an ultimatum? I advise against that, as does DBing.

He does not want to do that b/c he'll most likely corner her into leaving him that much sooner.

Sure she might be playing him.

But if given the choice, I'd rather have stood for my marriage a bit too long

than quit a bit too early. Especially if it's really about my ego dictating my behavior.


but, she wouldn't be ALL wrong if he set some darn boundaries/expectations of her. Snowman doesn't lead his family. He lets the wife lead, usually on her most recent whim.

okay are we talking biblical leadership or what?

Again, what is it you mean by boundaries?

Sometimes "boundaries" mean "Punish the spouse".

But my DB coach when she said

it's not the job of the spouse to punish the other, or to "teach them a lesson" or to "show them the consequences of their choices" b/c that's not loving no matter how disguised it is as,

and LIFE TEACHES THEM the lessons/consequences, not us.

I agree with that but it was a hard lesson at first. I so wanted "justice"...that was my need to be "Right"..

although I may have been "more right" than my h, i was not happy and we were not rebuilding our marriage

until I got rid of the need to be right. I think it's a character flaw, frankly.

And I'm glad to be rid of it. I'm a lot happier.


I read both threads. Mostly, just his posts.

Brats have high levels of expectations,



gotta say, the term "brats" is a huge turn off for me. I think you want to say "bitch" ....but regardless, it Just sounds very condeming and I don't see that as helpful here. We want their marriage to survive. We are not here to "spank the brat"...


and have no regard for those providing the service/good/feeling.

Just a few examples that I can remember:
His wife moved out w/their son, into a "room" in a shared home. He let her.


as opposed to what specifically? What do you think he could have done, move out himself? NO that's not what you mean...so what is it?

Stand in the doorway? Be very clear on what you mean here.


His wife has expected him to finance most of her new lifestyle. He has.

maybe that's the legal duty he has. I don't know. But I do know forcing her onto food stamps probably won't get him where he wants to go.

She's the one who had to leave with son and live with someone else, not him. He remained behind in the more comfortable home, while she had their child.

You don't seem to realize how most outsiders see that as a bad reflection on him. HER family sure does. She did too.

Have you read Crimson's thread? You may want to.



He "exposes" her infidelity, and continuously finds more evidence of it, but still pays her cell phone bill

"exposed" it? If you mean he told others, i'd say "bad idea!". It looks punitive and vindictive and always backfires on the LBSer

If you mean he confronted her, that's different. But he is not a man who speaks w/clarity. Snowman I hope you begin to.


She plans a single woman vacation on a weekend/week that she has her son, then "fills him in" after the fact, that he's in charge of the son. He agrees.
And, how about the tuition money/loan, etc...? EEK


OMG ^^^^HE did the same thing to her At the same time. How Did you miss that? They are "even" there totally...but I cannot stand the whole scorecard approach.

You are using HIS measuring scoop and that does not help HIM. It just says "She is wrong/wrong/wrong"...and what's He supposed to DO with that? Be really clear now...

If he wanted someone else to care for HIS son while she's gone (& she is every bit as allowed a trip as he is, he can do that OR have someone else. But why is childcare for his own child such a chore for him and "gift" to her?

The tuition or loans she took out? In her name or what?

I don't recall him paying those....

but if you are suggesting he cut her off to show her, then I would say "well, the marriage will end that much sooner but hey, think of the savings..."

except he'll force her into a corner and HE will be paying her money anyhow...



I'm sure he's contributed to their breakdown. He needles her for a new status of them, hoping for one that he likes better than the present. But...

Something tells me if he just stood up to her, and for their family, she might just find him desirable again!

His wife


I think he needs to be firmly loving, solid and uncritical. None of those things are doormat behavior.

I also believe forgiveness is a sign of strength, not weakness. Of course I don't mean to ignore things and effort on the marriage itself will have to happen or they won't restore their marriage.

The only person he can control or work on, is him. Frankly, I see him as a man with some work to do.

I have said as much so this isn't news to Snowman.

He has his issues and among them are the type of black and white declarations that he does not apply to his own behavior. That seems hypocritical and self serving.

I don't think that has helped his cause at all.

you dislike her and disapprove of every choice she has made. Okay...

but Snowman wants to stay married to her.

I want to help him work on himself so that no matter what

he becomes the best man and husband he can become...with or without her.
We clearly disagree. Well, I think. I don't have the energy to read your novel, kind of quoted, highlighted yet colored - in entirety.

I'm here to help Snowman in my way, having successfully DBing myself to happiness. I'm not here to make you happy with my opinion.

I've read Crimsons thread sporadically.

Funny. Not haha. Strange.

I met my boyfriend here. We've been together quite awhile. Historically, I've said. What a great place to have met my boyfriend. We both had a desire to make a marriage work, and were willing to do work on it and ourselves to improve it.

I can tell you this. The current crop of poor men in limbo w/no voice nor support to have one???? I hope that when they're forced out of being the better option, and their marriage breaks up, that their Match membership doesn't link to their old threads here.

Not attractive.
So. On to Snowman.

smile.

Snowman. You now have a different option.
All I can say is Holy Cow 25yearsmlc and Mindfull. I'm not going to try to respond to all of your banter back and forth other than to say you have both over reacted just like me. I did post the post to vent not to got slammed again and again.

I don't know if I got help here or projections of the things you two have gone through.

25yearsmlc-
I went to the meeting to actually learn what was needed to coach not to chase my son. I would have gladly watch my son at home if that was the intent but it was not. There where numerous handouts and other things discuss of the which I hear nothing about. I enjoy watching my son but it would have been nice to know a single detail about what I will be participating any but now I know nothing.

I posted to vent because it did bother me that she committed us to something without the consideration of even asking me. If that is wrong or controlling on my part then sorry but I would not commit my W to weeks of her time and responsibility without at least asking her know before hand.

The running-Yes running is healthy, never debated that and is silly to mention. How do I know the running is an outlet or not I can't read her mind. I do know the large time commitment it takes to prepare for these races as I have lived it. Running everyday, weekends, and other training. Yes, I do think I resent it when we were still together because it seemed to control our life's. I like golf but that doesn't mean I get to go golfing everyday or weekend and play in 6 tournaments or whatever. Is this all about what my W wants to do and I should just get to do nothing and be the only parent. I don't think the topic of running is grasped. I welcome some compromise on this but when I get blamed for not supporting because I can't wake our S up super early to be to a race at the finish line because my 2 year old S doesn't want to stand still for 2-3 hours or I get blamed for not running a race yet I'm watching our S then I have somewhat of a problem. I know it is called parenting but when I'm watching or playing with my S for my W now it feels like babysitting for her. I'm not sure of your tone but I hope you are not questioning me in the parenting things now as well.

No, I never coached so that is wrong. I played for years before I ever knew my W.

You say loose that scorecard which I can understand but then I feel like you are keeping score for me in the post and defending her or something. I'm not keeping score I'm expressing my frustrations.

The nagging to talk stopped. I only emailed her once about other things when I got back from my trip which included other things as well. I didn't consider this nagging. She told me she was very busy which I told her I understand so when I saw her I asked if she would like to talk then. That is twice that I mentioned it. Is this nagging her?

Wow, you tell me to learn to STFU and telling me I'm a turn off because I pointed out in my own post of my mistake of pursuit.

My plan as you described it was what I have been doing as my W continued to pursue the D.

What have I learned or changed:
-I have learned I can only control me. (Your post you have painted me otherwise)
-I have learned what I over-controlled.
-I have learned about the fear-shame dynamic of males/females and how that affects relationships.
-I have learned I'm not perfect
-I have learned to be a better father

Marriage would be different
-I would not neglect her emotionally
-I will be a better father
-I would be supportive of her goals in work, school, and others. (you think otherwise)
-I will not try to solve her problems but just be there and support her.

I have had my S more than my W as I have to kept track of it and I do want my S. I have painted here like I don't or have not supported him which is absolutely wrong. I can't type everything here as to who I am or what I do. I thought this forum was a place we are able to vent so we don't take the anger into the relationships we are working on. I do also understand the feedback and I guess criticism but wow the approach is a little rough.

Mindful-
I have actually heard the brat comment from others as well I did agree in various aspects. Many boundaries have been set and what she does is on her own money and time. I gave her the half of her finances. What she does with it is up to her.

I don't constantly push on my W as 25yearsmlc says. I emailed her once and asked her once days later. My W and I have been communicating through text and phone a lot. She even texted me a picture of her on her running trip last weekend.

-I actually did everything I could to not have her move out and I did go through the house were she moved to.
-I didn't finance her new lifestyle. I gave her the half of the finances and she works so what she does now is paid by her.
-The cell bill is paid by both of us
-I did go on vacation were she watched my S so her going is fair although she didn't tell me about until after she was planning it.
-The tuition loan is in her name and her responsibility. Not happy about it but it is hers.

A stronger stance may be the correct approach. I will assess my direction tomorrow from my conversation. Thanks for all the feedback from everyone.
Wow, that was intense, but I believe they both want to help you. Sift thru and I think you will find truths in both.
Snowman

I'm glad you are getting a different perspective here. I mean that!

But in your real life, you are already getting your views validated

so I didn't see my role here as doing more of that.


I am admittedly putting myself in her shoes.

For sure, I see that as something someone here has to do, for YOUR benefit.

I can't say I'm 'projecting" b/c My husband did NOT treat me the way you seem to treat your wife, but keep in mind that sometimes, as I said to you long ago,

I want to use her perspective for you...

b/c I don't think seeing things through your eyes again, helps you much.

and fwiw, if you read my last post and your response

see if you may be reacting to things you THINK/FEARED I MEANT-

rather than what I actually said.

good luck Snowman

I wish you and your wife and son well.
Mindful

I don't want to hijack Snow's thread.

But lest you put me in some "feminist" or anti male categoy, think again.

See my post to Navy or Denver, or Rick or WAS2Sad or at least 5 other men I post to regulary. See how it really is.

I am as fair as I can be and on the whole-

I probably encourage & advise more men than women,

and call more women on their poop than men.
Snowman. Now, we're getting somewhere. smile

Your last post is full of more truths, than your entire two threads combined!

So. Just a quick response for now...

Yay! On soccer coaching! I have two club soccer boys, who have played since they were toddlers.

She volunteered to coach (Yay!).
She committed you w/out discussing first... (Boo!).
Boundary: W, you volunteered and commuter your time to this position. If you can't fulfill it, it's your responsibility to get yourself covered. Because I love the sport, and will enjoy S doing it, I'm glad to help on X day(s), but you will need to find your replacement coach on X days.

Running (Yay!)
She committed you to supporting time it takes to prepare/compete: (Boo!)
Boundary: W, I'm so glad you've found a physical outlet. Training and competing take time. I'm glad to support your races when S and I are free, but we have plans on X day. Or, I think it's important that S remains on his sleep schedule, and won't wake him to be there at that time.

And, unfortunately, I was stung really bad by 'marital debt' in my D, even though occurred AFTER we were separated, and the Judge ordered neither of us to acquire additional debt. You are financing her. Also, it appears she was a 'partial' stay-at-home mom. Do you know, for sure, that she would have gotten half if everything? Or that you were negotiating/fiscally planning correctly? It's hard, since we only see what's typed here...

Lastly, admittedly, I have no tolerance for cheating, and my xH knew that before we married. The feeling about it didn't just appear once it happened to me. So, it was clearly a deal breaker. I have a hard time seeing how anyone would fight for someone that doesn't want to be with them. However, with that said, I have incredible respect for those that move past it, heal and restore their marriages. But... If you notice, the ones that do so have a spouse w/a common behavior... They are incredibly remorseful and sorry. The LBS didn't sit and wait to be considered attractive again. They acted, on their own path, and didn't ride the roller coaster.

I've read nowhere of your W's true remorse. Only that she's sorry, some days, that she's given up her lifestyle. (I'm wondering if those says are when she's had a falling out w/her affair partners, since she tends to go back to get affirming ways w/in days...)

Starsky is probably one of your best sources of help. He was a strong, leading, boundary living LBS who restored his marriage, but first realized where his improvements were needed.

My point of view comes from someone who did a lot of 'waiting/hoping, etc... Only to realize, I didn't have to live like that. I created a plan to move on... And live again ( instead of just reacting).
Sorry for the errors above. Darn phone typing during insomnia!!!
Originally Posted By: mindfull
I have a hard time seeing how anyone would fight for someone that doesn't want to be with them. However, with that said, I have incredible respect for those that move past it, heal and restore their marriages. But... If you notice, the ones that do so have a spouse w/a common behavior... They are incredibly remorseful and sorry. The LBS didn't sit and wait to be considered attractive again. They acted, on their own path, and didn't ride the roller coaster.



This has been my observation as well. Tremendously so.


Starsky
SM, your original postings were very angry and laced with control over your W.

You appear to me to have worked through much of that, although it does appear you still have some work to do in that regard.

OTOH, it is OK to be angry and vent here, of course. There are things we need to own, as our responsibility in the sitch... and then there's the projections, untruths, and re-written history of the WAS that we have no reason to own, nor even accept... but, we should validate... as untrue as they may be, they ARE (take this on the surface, not the cause) feeling the way they do... right or wrong...

That being said, my feet remain planted firmly in the middle...

Please be careful not to backslide into thoughts and behaviours that would attempt to control or manipulate your W, or be punitive... these things you HAVE done in the past...

Perhaps you may not... I am simply putting this out there...

Finish that letter... send it... don't let your current negative feelings affect the content and context of the intention of the letter... do it BEFORE the chat...

And BELIEVE and BEHAVE as you wrote...

Because the primary way to affect your R is to change yourself...

Keep the changes going and don't backslide because you feel slighted or you begin to feel you need to blame your W...
And... the PS...

Because... your W WILL test you (consciously or unconsciously) to see if she can still push your buttons... she's not going to want to believe that your changes are real...

She might just believe it is just one more attempt to manipulate and control her...

She has to feel like she isn't being controlled...

She has to feel emotionally safe in your presence...

And it needs to be consistent... over time...

And THEN... perhaps she won't seem like a brat...
Ok thank you all for your comments. I don't have the time to respond to it all but I will take everything into consideration. I know I need to not backslide or be controlling. I will post later my results of my conversation. I try to be totally honest on this forum with you all but I will admit that I know I will get the proverbial 2x4 even though in my mind I have already given it to myself. I guess that part of the deal.

Anyway thanks for the help. Its always nice to be able to have such a experienced group to bounce my situation off. I almost wish this was a chat room or video conference type deal because it is so hard to type everything and also get the tone that is really being felt. Wish me luck.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Wish me luck.


I don't think you need it, but good luck!
Originally Posted By: Starsky309
Originally Posted By: mindfull
I have a hard time seeing how anyone would fight for someone that doesn't want to be with them. However, with that said, I have incredible respect for those that move past it, heal and restore their marriages. But... If you notice, the ones that do so have a spouse w/a common behavior... They are incredibly remorseful and sorry. The LBS didn't sit and wait to be considered attractive again. They acted, on their own path, and didn't ride the roller coaster.



This has been my observation as well. Tremendously so.


Starsky


This ^^^

SM, you do need to draw some boundaries. When your w just takes for granted that you will dance to her tune, soccer, running, whatever, she is treating you like an on-call babysitter. Can you imagine what SHE would do if you did that to her?
Just say, "Oh, w, that just doesn't work for me. You will have to make other arrangements." Will she "get mad?" Maybe. So what?
You are not her doormat, nor do you exist solely to subsidize her lifestyle. She may respect you a little bit if you stood up to her. Women do NOT respect a doormat. It makes us sick!
Even though we may show some anger at not getting our own way, we have respect for a strong man, not one we can boss around. If you believe nothing else, please believe this!
Strong men make us feel safe. Weak men are not at all attractive.
You don't have to be a dick about it, just, "Sorry, that doesn't work for me. You will have to make other arrangements."
Oh, and don't explain WHY it doesn't work for you, just SAY it. Do not get defensive and over-explain. Don't bother to explain at all!
"Over-explaining" is thie root of many ills. cool


Starsky
Ok, well the conversation was had. She wanted to meet at a park so our S could play but that ended up just being a distraction most of the time as he was dragging us both to go down the slide or play soccer with him.

W: She said that she thinks that she wants to go ahead with the papers as is.
Me: I said ok and ask why she said that part of her wants to work on it and why.
W: She said that she doesn't want to work on it for the wrong reasons like finances or missing my family.
Me: I said I agree you should not do it for those reasons.
W: I know we have been good friends lately but I just don't know if there is anymore than that.
Me: I agree we have been good friends of lately. Would you like to explore that at all?
W: I'm not sure, I just don't think I want to put myself in that situation.
The conversation is very broken up as we are trying to play with my S and have this conversation.
Me: Well I know and have learned that I have been controlling and emotionally neglectful. What exactly don't you want to get back into or could you explain that to me (I can't remember the exact words I said but something like that).
W: Exactly that. I don't want to be in that situation of control again.
Me: I have learned a lot about my control problem and agree that I did control many things in our marriage like finances and time.
(I said other examples of this)
W: Thats why I hid purchases from you.
Me: I understand that.
W: You never showed appreciation for my cooking and always complained about me buying things to cook.
Me: I agree I didn't show the amount of appreciation I should have. I really do like your cooking. This stems back to the control issue of money as well. (I will say that we were trying to save money to move and have her be a stay home W during this time. I didn't say that of course).
W: I love cooking and enjoy doing it for people. You just never seemed to appreciate it.
Me: I apologize and should have showed my appreciation.
W: I never felt support in running either. In face I had a buddy at work come to one of my races which I know is creepy and I never told you that but I wish you would have showed up to it.
Me: I know I should have supported you more in running. I will say that when the races were early it makes it hard make with our son.
W: I know that but you could of made it to the race that was the multi-leg race.
Me: True I should have.
W: I know people think that I just want to hang out with my friends and party but that is not true and I only hang out with them once a month.
Me: I don't think that and really don't know what you do.
W: Since I have moved into my place by myself it has been lonely at time but I have been happy not being told what to do or worry about that.
Me: I can understand that and I have been happy as well. I know I have a control issue and have discussed with my counselor as well as my sister (my BIL and sister had a separation that they worked through, control issue on my sisters part and issues on my BIL part) about my control issue. I know telling you this is just words of me saying I have recognized my control issue but I can only tell that I have for now and this was going to be part of my letter to you. I would like to try and show you but that is up to you. I know my family has a control issue and I don't want to be like that. It bothers me when I see it. This is how BIL and sister had to deal with in their marriage issues (we know quite a bit about their issues they had).
W: I know your other sister's husband is able to deal with it and is ok but that is not me and I don't like it.
Me: I agree, I don't like it either and it bothers me as well. I don't want to be like that and my recent vacation with them showed me how it was again and it bothers me.
At this point our S is getting very fussy because it is his nap time and so she says that she will bring drive back to the house to finish the conversation after we put him down for a nap. we eventually get him down and continue our conversation.
Me: I know that I have had a control issue that I think is the steam of my problems that I have had in our relationship. I can only say that I know that and have learned that through this experience. I know I can only say this to you as I unable to show you but I am aware of my problem. I wanted to share this with you for sometime but have been unable to. I think this is a product of my environment growing up as I did live in a controlling environment and I see how it has affected my siblings. I don't want to be that person not matter how this turns out.
W: I know I have my communication issues as well and other things to work on as well.
Me: I think both of us are have these issues from our raising.
W: I agree completely.
Me: I would like to be give this a try to show you which I know may sound superficial. I don't want to control you or pressure you. This is your decision as it is mine. I'm not sure what the first step would be if we did work on this but I would like us to make a decision and take the first step if you decide. I appreciate you talking to me and setting this up.
W: I appreciate you talking as well. I will think about what we have talked about and let you know.

We talked about some logistics for the week with our S and then she left. This is not all the exact words and things from the conversation but the bulk of it. I posted honestly what was said. Please give your feedback, the good and the bad. I will try to take it in stride smile.
any chance you could get her to go to Retrovaille?

Maybe say it'll help co-parent, and don't make it about pressuring her to work on the marriage.

Getting her there is what counts. The marriage WILL be helped, no matter why she goes.

Otherwise, you sounded vague in some ways (like not having a real plan for improving the marriage, w/ nothing specifically different or new about how things would improve.

With no examples of a new behavior even discussed or given, it makes it harder for her to envision it being better. Know what I mean?)

But hey, you did validate and concede things that need to be worked on. You must have done it enough for her to feel comfortable saying SHE has to work on communications. That's good.

So you sent the message or planted a seed in her head that you are working on being less controlling. (You did not send a letter at all, correct?)

So make sure you Don't undermine the message you sent her about what you are working on in yourself.

And see if there's anyway you can get to Retrovaille. Are you familiar with it? It's a weekend marriage retreat for marriages in crisis. There are "host" couples there who tell their stories and regardless of your problems, THEIR stories will make your marriage problems pale in comparison...at least that's how it felt to us.

We saw stable solid couples talking about their marriages in positive ways - but they had been through hell and back. Some had lost children to drugs or car accidents or even murder, OR had out of wedlock babies, declared bankruptcy, or all of the above.

But there they were at Retrovaille, together, helping US work on our marriages.

I've seen it work miracles on marriages that expected to end soon...and are still alive.

After 2 years, over 80% of attendees are still married. Considering how troubled their marriages were when they went, that is saying a lot.

hang in there...
Snowman...

I'm not saying you don't have anything to work on, but...
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Ok, well the conversation was had. She wanted to meet at a park so our S could play but that ended up just being a distraction most of the time as he was dragging us both to go down the slide or play soccer with him.

W: She said that she thinks that she wants to go ahead with the papers as is.
Me: I said ok and ask why she said that part of her wants to work on it and why.
W: She said that she doesn't want to work on it for the wrong reasons like finances or missing my family.
Me: I said I agree you should not do it for those reasons.
W: I know we have been good friends lately but I just don't know if there is anymore than that.
Me: I agree we have been good friends of lately. Would you like to explore that at all?
W: I'm not sure, I just don't think I want to put myself in that situation.
The conversation is very broken up as we are trying to play with my S and have this conversation.
Me: Well I know and have learned that I have been controlling and emotionally neglectful. What exactly don't you want to get back into or could you explain that to me (I can't remember the exact words I said but something like that).
W: Exactly that. I don't want to be in that situation of control again.
Me: I have learned a lot about my control problem and agree that I did control many things in our marriage like finances and time.
(I said other examples of this)
W: Thats why I hid purchases from you.
Me: I understand that.
W: You never showed appreciation for my cooking and always complained about me buying things to cook.
Me: I agree I didn't show the amount of appreciation I should have. I really do like your cooking. This stems back to the control issue of money as well. (I will say that we were trying to save money to move and have her be a stay home W during this time. I didn't say that of course).
W: I love cooking and enjoy doing it for people. You just never seemed to appreciate it.
Me: I apologize and should have showed my appreciation.
W: I never felt support in running either. In face I had a buddy at work come to one of my races which I know is creepy and I never told you that but I wish you would have showed up to it.
Me: I know I should have supported you more in running. I will say that when the races were early it makes it hard make with our son.
W: I know that but you could of made it to the race that was the multi-leg race.
Me: True I should have.
W: I know people think that I just want to hang out with my friends and party but that is not true and I only hang out with them once a month.
Me: I don't think that and really don't know what you do.
W: Since I have moved into my place by myself it has been lonely at time but I have been happy not being told what to do or worry about that.
Me: I can understand that and I have been happy as well. I know I have a control issue and have discussed with my counselor as well as my sister (my BIL and sister had a separation that they worked through, control issue on my sisters part and issues on my BIL part) about my control issue. I know telling you this is just words of me saying I have recognized my control issue but I can only tell that I have for now and this was going to be part of my letter to you. I would like to try and show you but that is up to you. I know my family has a control issue and I don't want to be like that. It bothers me when I see it. This is how BIL and sister had to deal with in their marriage issues (we know quite a bit about their issues they had).
W: I know your other sister's husband is able to deal with it and is ok but that is not me and I don't like it.
Me: I agree, I don't like it either and it bothers me as well. I don't want to be like that and my recent vacation with them showed me how it was again and it bothers me.
At this point our S is getting very fussy because it is his nap time and so she says that she will bring drive back to the house to finish the conversation after we put him down for a nap. we eventually get him down and continue our conversation.
Me: I know that I have had a control issue that I think is the steam of my problems that I have had in our relationship. I can only say that I know that and have learned that through this experience. I know I can only say this to you as I unable to show you but I am aware of my problem. I wanted to share this with you for sometime but have been unable to. I think this is a product of my environment growing up as I did live in a controlling environment and I see how it has affected my siblings. I don't want to be that person not matter how this turns out.
W: [/color]I know I have my communication issues as well and other things to work on as well.[color:#3333FF]
Me: I think both of us are have these issues from our raising.
W: I agree completely.
Me: I would like to be give this a try to show you which I know may sound superficial. I don't want to control you or pressure you. This is your decision as it is mine. I'm not sure what the first step would be if we did work on this but I would like us to make a decision and take the first step if you decide. I appreciate you talking to me and setting this up.
W: I appreciate you talking as well. I will think about what we have talked about and let you know.

We talked about some logistics for the week with our S and then she left. This is not all the exact words and things from the conversation but the bulk of it. I posted honestly what was said. Please give your feedback, the good and the bad. I will try to take it in stride smile.


Note how many things/amount of time spent talking about what you did wrong. (In black)
Note how many things/amount of time spent talking about what she did wrong. (In blue)

I believe in being forgiving, IF your forgiving someone forgivable.

I still don't see any remorse for straying from your marriage. She's just bent on explaining her reasons for not sticking around to fix it vs. looking elsewhere for her quick fix.

I feel your pain in trying.
25yearsmlc-I have no idea if I could get her to a Retrouvaille. She was always resistant of going to marriage counseling in the months past and she told me she will not go to MC unless she has decided to work on the marriage. I think she would say the same thing if I asked her to go to Retrouvaille but it can't hurt to present it to her.

As far as examples of how things would be different I told her how I would like to have our finances if we were together again. That when she mentioned the hiding of various purchases. I told her I have tried during much of this separation to not be controlling cause I know that was my problem and that when I asked or talked to her that I fear that it may be perceived as controlling. I remember her saying in another conversation that she thought I was screening her calls to our S which was not the case but she perceived it that way. I didn't really go into other examples because they are future examples that could happen but have not. I agree I could have provided more and will think about that.

I did not send her the letter. I told her much of the conversation in my letter was discussed today but I would finish it. Are you saying not to send it?

Mindfull-

I agree that I did more talking about what I did to contribute to our M problems. I didn't really see much remorse either. She may be going back and forth with whatever the next guy she maybe pursuing. Her phone records indicate that there is probably another guy in the picture from her last running trip. People on here have said that other guys are just a symptom of the real problems. I don't know that for sure and it is very very disheartening.

My W has to work late the day she is suppose to pick up my S so I will be watching him extra for her which I don't mind but you get the point. She has her soccer coaching training so that will be more time parenting our S for her on a day she should have him. Last she has to take her car in for a tuneup so she will probably be late getting our S again. I hate to complain about getting my S or parenting but her schedule is controlling mine I guess. I feel like I walk a fine line of of trying to be nice but not being abused as a doormat especially when my S is involved.

I really am trying to be a good man despite my W's decisions. I don't claim to have been a perfect husband but I can say I am changing and will continue to no matter what way this goes. I know I will not continue this marriage without serious counseling which I told her as well. We both agreed our old marriage is dead and did not want it.

Another interesting thing she said was we could maybe go through with the D and if we end up working things out we could get back together. I said I didn't want to do that and would rather try now if we were going to try. I'm not sure what her comment is suppose to mean but that seems weird or suspicious to me.

Anyway, I will see if she actually responds to my question of making a decision of wanting to work on it or not after this conversation.
Yes, I agree that you spent a lot of time talking, although what I saw was that you validated her (great) and that you were clear (many times; oh well, still great) about what you considered your issues and how you recognized them and were addressing them in various ways.

The fact that you describe one instance of your W indicating what she felt was her issues... as far as I'm concerned... that was great... because as far as I can remember, that is actually the first and only time she has done so... so in all fairness, it is a baby step, but probably she would consider it a giant step.

Honestly, I respect that others are suggesting you man up... and I would agree in the sense that you need to hold to your boundaries...

The rest of it... well, maybe you spent a lot of time in the convo being the "nice guy", but I believe you would really be able to suggest that your controlling was a huge part of your M of the past...

From where I stand... let her sit on the convo... she may or may not slow down... or change her mind... much... but it appears better to me than how it was in the beginning...

Keep doing what you are doing and perhaps it is time to start considering how you see yourself in a new M with your W... and... with compassion and respect for your W... what would deal breakers be for you and what boundaries you might set...
Wow, my W just had a 54 minute conversation with the new guy who's first name I know now and is the new guy I mentioned in the post above. Well I now really wonder if her back and forth is really just her back and forth with her various relationships she has had during our separation. I'm probably just being played like a fiddle. I'm the stupid spouse that keeps taking her back for moments at a time, seriously. Is this her calling to ask him or get validation to end her marriage with me and go with him? Oh well I put my cards on the table, if she wants to play is up to her. It hurts when she does this after I have put what I feel are my problems out on the table and she did not (I know I shouldn't look but this is all I have as a source to what is going on). Tomorrow is another day.
This is just my opinion, but I think your W just played you. She just blamed everything on you, took very little accountability for her own actions and went to the OM.

There definitely were nuggets that she told you, but it seemed like she didn't tell you how important those things meant to her. You're not a mindreader so many times you didn't know.

And on the other side, the OM is being "sympathetic" and saying how brave she is to do what she did, etc. BS. He's waiting in the wings for her. She doesn't realize that she's STILL being controlled. Just by someone else.

Someone who has strong self-esteem fesses up and takes their responsibilities, not blame someone else and go to someone else for the exact same reasons she claims is hurting her. The irony is overwhelming.
SM, if you react outwardly in a negative way towards your W due to this "revelation" that you became aware of, then it will show her that your "changes" are a ploy to win her back...

As tough as it is (and I know it is tough, I still live it), here's the thing...

YOU DO NOT have your W's heart, right now...

Your M is already dead...

Now... if your BOUNDARY is to not be involved with someone who is not exclusive with you... or someone who is "playing the field"... then walk...

You do not need to instruct her why... it is not the words, it is the actions...

And if she looks your way... if she questions your behaviour... then she can decide what she wants...

IF you had expectations... then it will show in your next actions...

If you had NO expectations... then you can keep moving forward...

Your choice... either way...
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Mindful

I don't want to hijack Snow's thread.

But lest you put me in some "feminist" or anti male categoy, think again.

See my post to Navy or Denver, or Rick or WAS2Sad or at least 5 other men I post to regulary. See how it really is.

I am as fair as I can be and on the whole-

I probably encourage & advise more men than women,

and call more women on their poop than men.


True Dat! wink

Denver
"then it will show her that your "changes" are a ploy to win her back..."

This isn't true.

The conversation was based on total honesty between the two of them and that they were both on equal footing. Having an OP complicates matters and is an unfair variable against Snow. He has apologized for his past behavior and has shown his changes. He's put in the effort. She, on the other hand, is seeing another guy behind his back. Not equal.
I accept that my comments might have been a little vague...

My boundary is NO open M... and I accept that it is SM's boundary as well... if it is... I sounds like it is...

I'm just saying that how he enforces that boundary... it could appear that the changes weren't for real, to his W...

I don't know how else to express it with words...

aside to say... if SM is changing his behaviour for himself, regardless of whether the M is saved... and those changes are to not attempt to control or manipulate his W...

then his actions in regards to enforcing his boundaries would be expressed that way... rather than...

"W, because you are back with OM, I refuse to talk to you any more..."

and instead be in the frame of something like...

"W, I need to step back from our situation for a while and consider what I want..."

Maybe that makes better sense regarding the how?

But in the end, if he wanted to tell his W to get the duck out... I would certainly support and accept his decision to do so...
Snowman. One of the notes I made after reading your threads the first time...

- I would bet if you checked phone records, each of the (too) many times she wanted to talk about the possibility of reconciliation, you would find that she had just ended a flurry of calls/txt's w/an affair partner/potential affair partner. Once they made up/she found someone new, she was back to ... WaW mode.

She doesn't like to be alone.
When she's not alone, and feels she has an "upgrade" available, she's in full on Entitled Brat mode.

And, the above reasons that she gives/has for you having son during her visitation time... While its great for you, since you enjoy having him... How do you schedule your life? And, consider this, any worthy, potential mate isn't going to appreciate being constantly on-call, and required to change plans/schedule at the drop of a hat.

I adore my boys. I have always said yes if there's been a problem w/xH having them during his visitation time... But, he also gives me a heads up immediately, and asks if I can make the change, or should he make other arrangements. He knows I'm out living my life.
Originally Posted By: MrBond
This is just my opinion, but I think your W just played you. She just blamed everything on you, took very little accountability for her own actions and went to the OM.

There definitely were nuggets that she told you, but it seemed like she didn't tell you how important those things meant to her. You're not a mindreader so many times you didn't know.

And on the other side, the OM is being "sympathetic" and saying how brave she is to do what she did, etc. BS. He's waiting in the wings for her. She doesn't realize that she's STILL being controlled. Just by someone else.

Someone who has strong self-esteem fesses up and takes their responsibilities, not blame someone else and go to someone else for the exact same reasons she claims is hurting her. The irony is overwhelming.



Couldn't agree more. whistle


Snowman needs to remove himself as his wife's Backup Plan. Time for her to put on her BGPs, and to pursue whatever it is she thinks she wants.


Starsky
Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem
I accept that my comments might have been a little vague...

My boundary is NO open M... and I accept that it is SM's boundary as well... if it is... I sounds like it is...

I'm just saying that how he enforces that boundary... it could appear that the changes weren't for real, to his W...

I don't know how else to express it with words...

aside to say... if SM is changing his behaviour for himself, regardless of whether the M is saved... and those changes are to not attempt to control or manipulate his W...

then his actions in regards to enforcing his boundaries would be expressed that way... rather than...

"W, because you are back with OM, I refuse to talk to you any more..."

and instead be in the frame of something like...

"W, I need to step back from our situation for a while and consider what I want..."

Maybe that makes better sense regarding the how?

But in the end, if he wanted to tell his W to get the duck out... I would certainly support and accept his decision to do so...


This makes sense. It is the difference between an "ultimatum" (other-focused) and a "boundary" (self-focused).

An ULTIMATUM is "You must stop seeing OM, and come back to the marriage!" A BOUNDARY is "You are a grown woman, and can do what you want to do; please understand, however, that I cannot live in an open marriage."


Starsky
Originally Posted By: MrBond
"then it will show her that your "changes" are a ploy to win her back..."

This isn't true.

The conversation was based on total honesty between the two of them and that they were both on equal footing.


agree to disagree w/that^^^



Having an OP complicates matters and is an unfair variable against Snow



true^^^


. He has apologized for his past behavior and has shown his changes.


agree to disagree on this^^. I don't know the changes SHE sees. Snow sounds nearly as angry in his posts as before.



He's put in the effort. She, on the other hand, is seeing another guy behind his back. Not equal.


Disagree with the former, agree with the latter.

But bottom line is, what is he to do now?
Hmmm. Good question.

Well we know that the OM is validating and being sympathetic to everything the W is saying and she's refusing to "get over" past mistakes. First off, I would suggest that when she gets on the rant about those hurts AGAIN, that snow very firmly reminds her that those are things that happened in the past and will not be defined by them.

Personally I would confront her and do the "I will not share my W" speech and say that he will not be the focus of all the woes in the M. She's owned up to a very small part of the problems. But as long as she has the OM, she will always be "right".
Okay let's brainstorm a bit...maybe the

"As I said, If I had it to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently"

and if needed, combine with

"the past is over. I have owned my part & let go of my anger for pain I felt. (that is to make the point that he CAN get past the A and that it's worth trying to rebuild the trust or she won't bother, frankly)...

"I am working on not repeating my mistakes w, so Why not focus on our plan for going into the future, "from this day forward"??


and Snow, at least paint something positive and specific in that plan so she can envision it. "Doing finances together" is important but vague. Can you "plan for/go on a trip she wanted? OR "spend more time together b/c now you won't work Saturdays", etc...(just hypotheticals, but those are details that would appeal to me as a "quality time" love language person. What is her love language anyhow? Whatever it is, try to target those needs. Make sense?


IMO---I'd keep the "lose the OM" speech separate (not saying it a month later, just not at the exact same time)

b/c I think she does need to hear something positive about their future together with some details included...that she can feel good/safe about BEFORE she has to give up on what she sees as her shot at happiness with OM.

Of course OM has to go. Not sure when to say it, but if it's all connected isn't that a bit tactical looking? You say no Bond but hear me out.

Here's what I mean-

In the DB moderator's section they have some "Classics" of posts by people. One that I've posted, here I think, was from a WAW to her LBS. She felt that

her LBH only made noticeable changes in himself, after he learned of her OM.

In their m, he'd been very critical and demeaning and she'd checked out long ago. He wanted her back and could not "grasp" why she would not return since he'd changed, or said he had.

But she feared the only reason her LBH wanted her back at all, was "to win"? Or at least mostly. IF so, he'd revert as soon as she returned.

She felt that way b/c he never bothered much with improving himself or even focussing on himself, until there was an OM in the picture.

I think DB moderators put in the "classics" section b/c it does represent a type of situation we see a lot around here.

And if Snow makes the "LOSE THE OM" speech at the same time as he makes efforts towards improving himself (traits which he agrees need working on anyhow)

then it seems less effective to me than keeping them separate.

For ME, seeing him make a change that is signficant enough for HER to recognize and acknowledge,

would naturally lead to her making a choice.

I thinkk she's mostly well intentioned (to the extent you guys believe that it is even possible) but even so

she'll pause b/c she won't trust Snow's changes.

And if she's just evil and manipulative, then she'll stall longer.

But if given the choice, I'd rather stand for my m a bit too long, than quit a bit too early. Is he risking that much more by trying a bit longer?

Snow you can tell her you are "a work in progress but have already grown from this."

that you are already becoming a better h for whomever you end up with

and you sure hope that's your, w.


As for OM...on one hand, he does have to go, obviously. But there is no reason for her to give him up if she believes you won't ever let it go, & it'll always hang over her head.

That score keeping thing may haunt her/you.

What about saying something like

"I look forward to us being past all this - But I can't share you with OM, so
we need to be on the same page

-- if you feel compelled to be w/OM, then we can part ways now in peace, and do right by our son..."

(I say it's an ultimatum, Bond says it's a boundary, but that may be semantics. Either way she's being asked to choose)

Snow-ONLY SAY THIS stuff If you are fully truly deeply prepared for her to feel cornered, or unimpressed by the new improved you, and her choosing him,

if you are, then so be it.


But also be ready for her to say "okay Snow, let's try" and then

you sure better have a plan for that as well...Like "Okay first off, let's decide TOGETHER if we'll live here or there, and..." so forth.

Make sense?

PS-

Oh and send the dang letter. If it's from the heart, at this point, What do you have to lose?
SM, one last thing from me on this (at least for now)...

Right now, from where I stand this still remains a sitch which is very W focused...

This is no longer about your W, what she thinks, what she does...

Your boundary is set. No sharing of W... but... she's not yours to share...

So... keep working on you, because you want to be sure that you won't be controlling or manipulative of your next W... and you will be attentive to her needs, as you haven't been with your current...

You need to tell your W nothing about why you no longer want anything to do with her...

because... she claims she's done with you...

change yourself to change your sitch... and for a better future...
Wow, I'm astounded by all the response and want to thank everyone up front for all the feedback.

Before I respond to all the various posts I will give my perspective on this as I have thought about what is happening and has happened.

I think Mindfull and others are right as far as me being played. I'm pretty sure this is the 2nd if not 3rd time this has happened. Fool me once shame on her, fool me twice shame on me, fool me thrice shame on us seems fitting for all this. I really think that when my W has someone waiting on the sideline she wants a D and when the guy wises up and leaves her she suddenly wants to talk about maybe working on things. I have had various conversations with her throughout the months and see many men's numbers go through our cell records that come and go as well as pictures that got posted by accident on Facebook before she blocked me, my family, and my friends. She never really had much to say in the past conversations kind of like this one. She has already admitted her communication problem before as well. As I mentioned before there is now a new number that popped up from her last running trip and now she is acting cold to me again in communication again through text.

Mr. Bond is right about the irony because it seems she is being controlled by other men and I feel like she is controlling me or manipulating me. I don't think my wife has a strong self esteem and is always chasing things that people are doing to claim as here own. I have talked about that in earlier posts.

Ok I will try to somewhat respond to it all.

I'm prepared to talk to her about what has been mentioned by 25yearsmlc, Bond, and others that have posted because it is time to buck up or shu* up and I'm ready for whatever the results bring. I'm really not confrontational or outspoken type of guy so this is not my thing but I really feel it is necessary and that I have beat around the bush long enough in a timid manner. I'm not saying I'm going to talk to her guns a blazing I'm just saying I'm ready to have this go one direction or another.

If I'm reading this all correctly your suggesting to talk about my changes in one conversation with examples of things to do with her love language which is "Words" and talk about the OM in another conversation?

At the beginning of my stitch I questioned numerous times about OMs which she denied. I questioned some more about OMs later and she denied it. There is now another OM and she has a close friend who went through a D that started dating OMs before her D was over as well as her father who cheated. I don't say that to blame them just to point out these are the people she confides in for advice and examples. I really think that she will deny any other man again if I do say something and I would have to say something like I can provide evidence if necessary for her to admit it. I know this sounds like trying to be right but I really think she will just deny it again and brush it off as she has done with everything else that she will not own up to.

I will send the dang letter already smile. Kaffe Diem-I truly do want to change for me because that's what I want for me and who ever my future spouse is.

25yearsmlc-Thanks for such a detailed and LONG posts. You make a person think and always have very well thought out advice as do many who have posted on my stitch. I need time to digest it all and formulate my approach as suggested.
I must have missed a page in your thread somewhere...

What are you sending a letter to her for?

You just had this "conversation" with her, w/her discussing the possibility (again) Of reconciliation, but listing mostly YOUR faults... only to be followed by constant contact w/an OM.

I'm clearly missing something.

There's a time for validation. There's a time for independence.
Originally Posted By: Snowman


At the beginning of my stitch I questioned numerous times about OMs which she denied. I questioned some more about OMs later and she denied it. There is now another OM and she has a close friend who went through a D that started dating OMs before her D was over as well as her father who cheated. I don't say that to blame them just to point out these are the people she confides in for advice and examples. I really think that she will deny any other man again if I do say something and I would have to say something like I can provide evidence if necessary for her to admit it. I know this sounds like trying to be right but I really think she will just deny it again and brush it off as she has done with everything else that she will not own up to.


"Questioning" infidelity is pointless. People caught up in affairs will LIE about it (or "trickle truth" you to death), every single time, and it only makes you appear weak and defensive.

Either confront her with a "Look, I know all about these other men, and I cannot live in a marriage like this" or STFU (sorry to be so blunt). It never ceases to amaze me how many betrayed spouses basically ASK the fox "Did you raid the henhouse last night?"

Me? I'd rather be a sheepdog. smirk


Starsky
I would bring up the issues when she starts playing the blame game again. One little nugget that you can use is that people who are untruthful or cheat often believe their spouse of being the same way they are. You can use that to your advantage.

If you go dark and really start having a life, she will suspect another person on your end. This might just pry her away from someone else.
Starksy-I know questioning cheaters is pointless now. I learned my lesson on that during my learning phase. Its time to just straight up tell her I know about the cheating and that I can't live like this as you said.

Mr. Bond-What do you mean about bringing up issues when she plays the blame game? I don't think she thinks I'm cheating which is why she is trying so hard to hide her cheating or numerous communication with other men. She had the audacity to confront me one time about me looking at the cell phone bill months back and say that I was calling people on the list. I said do you have something to hide and she try to brush it off as someone's mom had been sick and they happened to have late conversations about it. Well I knew that guys name too.

I have tested going dark for a while and I don't think it really does anything to my W.

Mindfull-I had posted a while back about writing a letter when my D was near the end of the road and I was going to write one last letter. I have not sent it and not sure that I really need to since most of the content was shared with her in my last conversation anyway and she would probably just brush it off.

I think my W is very lonely as she just goes crazy with texting and calling people all day long. I really think she can't handle being on her own and has to be with someone or talking to someone every second of the day.

Should I just setup another time to talk to say these things or what? Should I talk about how I'm a work in progress and working on not repeating the past as 25yearsmlc mentioned? Should I have the OM talk with her now or later?
Snowman.

I think you've talked enough.

If I were you...

I would focus on you and your son. Any interractions w/her will be an example of the changes you have made (that you considered needed to be made).

I would lead by example.

I would implement some solid guidelines for scheduling of son visitation/flexibility.

I would be pleasant, but only engage in conversations regarding son.

I would cut off her ability to use you as an interim "fix" for conversation/emotional intimacy.

I would absolutely make sure you are protected financially. (debt)

Lastly, I would move on.

She may come back w/real remorse one day... But, Starsky said it best... This isn't a quick fix. You needs to see their changes for more than months... Possibly over a year. Words match actions.

If she doesn't come back w/real remorse, you've already begun a solid foundation for you and son.

Stop feeding her.
Originally Posted By: mindfull
I would focus on you and your son. Any interractions w/her will be an example of the changes you have made (that you considered needed to be made).

I would lead by example.

I would implement some solid guidelines for scheduling of son visitation/flexibility.

I would be pleasant, but only engage in conversations regarding son.

I would cut off her ability to use you as an interim "fix" for conversation/emotional intimacy.


I would absolutely make sure you are protected financially. (debt)

Lastly, I would move on.

She may come back w/real remorse one day... But, Starsky said it best... This isn't a quick fix. You needs to see their changes for more than months... Possibly over a year. Words match actions.

If she doesn't come back w/real remorse, you've already begun a solid foundation for you and son.

Stop feeding her.



Worth repeating and emphasising.

SM, the stuff above bolded, I absolutely did. The financial and scheduling I was on top of, right away.

Did it save my M? I don't know. I'm not with my W, but I'm not D. When I finally stopped talking with my W... ESPECIALLY when I stopped focusing on the OM(s)... she stopped focusing on D...

I then took this past year to make changes in myself, which I'm sure she's noticed... I've learned to be more strong in enforcing my boundaries...

And I figured out what I wanted for my future for me... and with my kids...

I don't know if my W is still "with" an OM... and at this point in time... I don't care... I've realized that I need to move on and I've become (more than) OK with that...

I am not in an open M, we are D in spirit, just not on paper...

But the only thing focusing on the OM is doing for you is keeping YOU stuck...
I wasn't referring to the idea that you were cheating. I was talking about the times when she blames you for how "unhappy" she is now. There comes a point where the WAS needs to stop using the LBS as a scapegoat and really start taking responsibility for their role in the breakdown of the M.
Big time vent-My W is now going on a road trip with a friend to the state where there OM lives. She has the audacity to ask me to switch days on watching our S so she can go. I am so d*m ready to call her on this. Should I be putting up with this sh*t or what because I swear I'm ready to just call her on the phone and say I'm done living in an open marriage?
Seriously?

Snowman. What do you think you should do?
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Big time vent-My W is now going on a road trip with a friend to the state where there OM lives. She has the audacity to ask me to switch days on watching our S so she can go. I am so d*m ready to call her on this. Should I be putting up with this sh*t or what because I swear I'm ready to just call her on the phone and say I'm done living in an open marriage?


"No, this doesn't work for me...."
Originally Posted By: HollyAnn
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Big time vent-My W is now going on a road trip with a friend to the state where there OM lives. She has the audacity to ask me to switch days on watching our S so she can go. I am so d*m ready to call her on this. Should I be putting up with this sh*t or what because I swear I'm ready to just call her on the phone and say I'm done living in an open marriage?


"No, this doesn't work for me...."



cool Perfect.



Starsky
Well I switch the day or two with my W so she can go because that means I get my S for a week straight over Easter which I'm excited about.

As for my W I plan on just letting her go to the other state and if she does I will let her know that I know about the other men and I'm not ok with living in an open marriage.

I know focusing on what other men there are is bad for me and I don't plan on doing that but I also will not just turn a blind eye either.

My changes I'm making are for me. I'm not doing it to manipulate my W or anything else. I know it takes time to see changes and trust them but I have been working on these changes for months since I worked with my IC when this all started. I know that is not a year but man how long do I have to go especially when the changes are for me not her.

One thing I do remember discussing with my IC about my control problem is that my W would always be yelling which would cause me to want to control things to minimize her anger and yelling at me or what ever problem she was dealing with.

Anyway sorry for the rambling but this what was on my mind.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Well I switch the day or two with my W so she can go because that means I get my S for a week straight over Easter which I'm excited about.

As for my W I plan on just letting her go to the other state and if she does I will let her know that I know about the other men and I'm not ok with living in an open marriage.



Two points:


1. Your words say one thing, Snowman, but your ACTIONS say another.

2. I can assure you, your wife pays no attention to your words; only your actions.


Starsky
Originally Posted By: Snowman


As for my W I plan on just letting her go to the other state and if she does I will let her know that I know about the other men and I'm not ok with living in an open marriage.


I know focusing on what other men there are is bad for me and I don't plan on doing that but I also will not just turn a blind eye either.


Above does not equal below. Think about it.

Originally Posted By: Snowman


My changes I'm making are for me. I'm not doing it to manipulate my W or anything else. I know it takes time to see changes and trust them but I have been working on these changes for months since I worked with my IC when this all started. I know that is not a year but man how long do I have to go especially when the changes are for me not her.

One thing I do remember discussing with my IC about my control problem is that my W would always be yelling which would cause me to want to control things to minimize her anger and yelling at me or what ever problem she was dealing with.
Starsky-I understand your point.

I don't want to excuse her or me by any means but we both have had different scheduling conflicts in the last week were we have had to ask the other to cover for each other. Her going out of town only changes one day during this week and it is my weekend next anyone so she would be going anyway. I know if I didn't switch with her this one day she would perceive this as controlling even though that is beside the point because why she is going is the problem. I will add she doesn't know that I know of the OM where she is going.

When I asked my W in text where she was going on her road trip she said maybe one place or other (the place where the OM is). I know she said that because if she said just this place it would really sound weird because we have never been there and it is very far away.

My point is I don't know 100% for sure she is going to see the OM but in my heart I know she is. My question is do I just talk to her now before she goes to put things straight?

Our phone records indicate she is contacting numerous new people which I can guaranty are not new girlfriends. If I didn't know better she is on a online dating website our she is just chasing men on Facebook all over the place. Anyway I don't see for myself how I can go on like this with my W running towards any man that she can find. If that's what she wants then so be it and I will move on.
My question to you is why bother ?
Is it a deal breaker to you ?
Why do you feel you have the right to get in the way of her pursuit of happiness ?
Why do you feel you have the right to control her ?
Why do you enjoy a divergence of paths on your words and actions ?

Seriously!

Why?

You already gave her your blessing to go on this trip. You showed this with words and actions. You are rearranging your schedule to accommodate her.

Your idea of dropping a guilt bomb before she takes off is not going to do anything.

Except show once again how you try to control her.

Let it go.

If you really want to know what is going on hire a P.I. Get your proof to satisfy what emotional needs you need satisfied.



If I was you. I would cancel the phones.

Why do you keep them in play?
Why do you keep spying on her?

You will get more sleep when you do not pour over her movements.
You will get more sleep when you let it go.

If its a deal breaker. Fast track the divorce and get it over with.

If it is not. Then stop trying to control her with guilt bombs.

Your whole thread is you working towards your next guilt session with your wife.

You need to learn that you cannot control her. It has been a constant theme since you started to post here.

Your not getting that.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Starsky-I understand your point.

I don't want to excuse her or me by any means but we both have had different scheduling conflicts in the last week were we have had to ask the other to cover for each other. Her going out of town only changes one day during this week and it is my weekend next anyone so she would be going anyway. I know if I didn't switch with her this one day she would perceive this as controlling . . .



Snowman,

How long have you been at this now? If you are still operating from a standpoint of worrying how your wife is going to perceive things, then you will be forever STUCK.

Start instead doing everything from a position of "What is THE RIGHT THING TO DO in this situation? What is the thing that God Himself would have me do, if He were standing right in front of me?"

I don't care one whit what your wife perceives things to be, when you are looking out for yourself and your interests, and neither should you.

I'm not just picking on you; this forum is FULL of threads of betrayed spouses who make grand pronouncements such as "Make no mistake, my wife knows EXACTLY what my position is!" . . . and yet their ACTIONS say otherwise. You'd actually be better off NOT saying a boundary, if you're not going to enforce it with action.


Starsky
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
My question to you is why bother ?
Is it a deal breaker to you ?
Why do you feel you have the right to get in the way of her pursuit of happiness ?
Why do you feel you have the right to control her ?
Why do you enjoy a divergence of paths on your words and actions ?

Seriously!

Why?

You already gave her your blessing to go on this trip. You showed this with words and actions. You are rearranging your schedule to accommodate her.

Your idea of dropping a guilt bomb before she takes off is not going to do anything.

Except show once again how you try to control her.

Let it go.

If you really want to know what is going on hire a P.I. Get your proof to satisfy what emotional needs you need satisfied.



If I was you. I would cancel the phones.

Why do you keep them in play?
Why do you keep spying on her?

You will get more sleep when you do not pour over her movements.
You will get more sleep when you let it go.

If its a deal breaker. Fast track the divorce and get it over with.

If it is not. Then stop trying to control her with guilt bombs.

Your whole thread is you working towards your next guilt session with your wife.

You need to learn that you cannot control her. It has been a constant theme since you started to post here.

Your not getting that.




AGREE.


Starsky
Maybe I have been lying to myself be thinking that the actions of my W are not a deal breaker but really they are. An open marriage is not acceptable to me. I would not be ok if my W wanted to date other guys if we were not separated/in this mess so does that mean that I should not be ok now that we are separated? I guess so. Maybe I should move ahead with the D.

Chatterbug-I don't think I can control her or stop her from her happiness. I did not know where she was going on her trip until after I had agreed to it not that it matters because again that is controlling. I agreed to change the schedule freely and decided to not control her. I find out after where she was going from her. If I knew where she was going I would probably not agreed to change the schedule but yet again I know that is controlling. Its not like I can trust my W actions to be ones that I agree with or that are helping the R which yet again controlling on my part. My point being is that I could say no to ever request on schedule changes for my S and make things difficult for both of us but in the end my S is the only one that would suffer. I felt like everyone is advising me too set the boundary of open marriage is not ok and I agree that it is not with me. I also agree trying to drop a guilt bomb is not the best approach so I will pass on that but I still feel that I should set my boundary in the open marriage regard because yes it is not ok with me.

I'm sorry I made the stupid mistake of agreeing to the schedule change but all I had to work off was her question to do it and our past history of doing so because things have been pretty flexible in that area of our lives because we both work.

I sleep fine actually as I work hard and play hard. I will admit this thing got me frazzled this week here and there but not enough to ruin my sleep.

Starksy-When I try to answer what is the right thing to do or what God himself do question my mind swirls with thoughts. God would and has forgiven all of us so I guess I should do the same. The right thing to do is to be honest from my perspective and if I'm honest then my W dating or chasing other guys is not OK with me whether that is controlling or not it is my honest answer. If I'm being honest with myself and my W then I should share that with her and set the boundary.
So SM, what if the only thing that happened was that your W had a "crush" on a guy, it was never physical... not even a kiss... but maybe they chatted all the time, she told him secrets, he to her his, she bought him cologne at random to let him know she appreciated him, that he sent her flowers once in a while... it was an EA... but not a PA...

Would THAT be a deal breaker for you?

I thought an A was a deal breaker for me... ANY type of A... and then I thought... maybe not... and then I was absolutely sure it really was and that an open M was a deal breaker...

An A that doesn't end... THAT is a deal breaker... really, it's not like there's a choice...

An A that ends... is it really...?
Dude. Its not a stupid mistake. Its one you made at that time. Its a choice. So accept it.

You love you wife. If you did not you would not be flopping back and forth. But at the same time you rediscovering yourself.

Somewhere in there is balance.

And that my friend is where you have to move towards.

Remember this choice has two results.

1. Your wife goes away on a trip.
2. You get a week with your son.

See you need to change how you deliver your message.

Want to send a message.

Go through your house. Remove all pictures of a marriage. Act like your selling your house. Remove all personal pictures.

Now that they are gone.

Go out and have an amazing day with your son.

Take a ton of pictures.

Go out and get some new picture frames or re use old ones.

Put those pictures up.

And never mention them.

If she asks.

You talk about the amazing day you had.

You will see she will change the subject.

That sends a message.

One she will read loud and clear.

You are not messing around any more.

And if she asks you if you can see a future with her.

You say.

No. Not at this time.

Then you go silent.



You did not pressure her.

You did not control her.

You stated your thoughts. Through actions.

Those will carry more weight.
P.S. You can change pictures to something else. It was the first thing I thought of.

The point I was trying to make was. Its time to make the place into your place.
Originally Posted By: chatterbug


The point I was trying to make was. Its time to make the place into your place.



AGREE. Very liberating thing for a left-behind husband to do, and very rattling to a walkaway wife. (do it for the first reason, Snowman -- the second one is just a side benefit smirk )


Starsky
Well I have sort of already done the picture thing but I will fill up a multi-picture frame with all the Easter pictures from this weekend. Does taking all my W's stuff out of the house count because I already did that too. Didn't phase other than the D papers went faster.

In reality I don't think my W really cares at this point about what I do. This is not the 1st guy in this escapade rather it is the 4-5 guy. She is dating in a frenzy and I don't know how far she has taken it with any of them but I find dating like this is doomed from the get go by hiding a husband and son in the background. I know various details about all of them and for some reason nothing of them work out, huh I wonder why (being facetious). I just wonder to myself why so many people think it is ok to start dating before getting a divorce?

Well I have calmed down from this whole thing that will be happening. I don't like it obviously but I have made my peace with it. This is just another hill in the ever so fun roller coaster ride smile.

I find it ironic how much work my W is willing to put in to go see this guy in a whole another state and all the other stuff but no effort to think about her marriage. I know she doesn't like me right now and has many issues with me that she is unable to communicate because she has a communication problem according to her. Oh well continue to work on me for me and if I stick around much longer to see if she wants to work on us then great but at this point I'm tired of the games. I just want to be a good person just because I do and am. It's my W's decision if she can trust my changes or finds her knight in shining armor in the other green grass with whole new set of problems.

I'm back to moving on and GAL time. Going shooting with some buddies tomorrow which is very therapeutic as you can imagine. I won the NCAA tournament at my work which I'm happy about and now I have to decide which new phone I want since my contract is finally up. I got Easter stuff line up for my S and ready to have a good time.
Feel bad for you, that you have such a little son. Hang in there!
Well, my W met with her L who emailed my L saying here are the papers will your client sign them. The L mentioned that things were amicable but she wanted to move through with the D. I'm not going to stop it this time. If my W wants to chase after all these other men and is done with our marriage then there is nothing I can do. I'm done fighting this and I don't want to live in this open marriage anymore. I have learned more than I can ever imagine and will continue to learn but I'm ready to move on.

I have a lot of thoughts about my W's path and new lifestyle but that is her's to choose. I had a great time yesterday target shooting and plan on doing it more. Not sure how the soccer thing is going to work out but I will be there for my S. I feel like I should have something profound to say but I don't other than I feel I tried to give my best. I'm know I'm not perfect and have my problems but I'm willing to admit them, talk about them, and work on them. My W never got to that point and that was always a problem in our marriage because she never did share her problems with me or others that she has issues with. I can't read minds and nor can anyone else.

This sounds weird but I almost feel like I followed the pattern of a typical woman who wanted to talk problems out and she was more of the typical man who didn't want to talk and avoided things. Weird but true.
Snowman,

I'm sorry. I know I've busted your balls along the way, but you are right -- you HAVE tried, and you have faced your shortcomings bravely and given good effort. You can sleep well knowing that you fought for this, and I'm proud of your effort.

You never know what the future holds. Something like 20% of D'd couples remarry each other, and almost always the marriage is way better than before. Just strive to treat your wife with grace and compassion (while not putting up with crap behavior), as it will serve you well going forward.


Starsky
Originally Posted By: Snowman
This sounds weird but I almost feel like I followed the pattern of a typical woman who wanted to talk problems out and she was more of the typical man who didn't want to talk and avoided things. Weird but true.


I feel the same way Snow. I have shouldered the majority of the responsibility for being where we are but my w rarely if ever talked to me deeply or to let me know how truly unhappy she was. She avoided confrontation and r talks like the plague.

I am planning on reading your entire thread because every time I read an update our sitch's are very similar.

Best to you Snow!!
Quote:
This sounds weird but I almost feel like I followed the pattern of a typical woman who wanted to talk problems out and she was more of the typical man who didn't want to talk and avoided things. Weird but true.
Not weird... particularly if you're a "fixer". You want to fix and that means you have to know. To know you have to talk.

I don't remember if you're read No Mr. Nice Guy but there's a part there as well about communicating problems out. Anyway, the stereotypes are just that, stereotypes. My W was the quiet one who doesn't talk about feelings, and this is something she readily admits.

Oddly enough we've probably talked more about her feelings, in an honest way, since this whole thing blew up than we ever did in the previous years.
Well I got into a little bit a a heated text battle with my W a day or so ago. My W likes to call to talk to my S at random times everyday and while I'm fine with it also makes things hard because I have to explain to my S where she is every time.

Anyway my W called and talked to my S and hangs up immediately so she can avoid communication with me. I texted her to inform her the doctor office called to give her results from her appointment and to say that it would have been nice if she could of informed me of her decision about moving ahead with the divorce instead of hearing it from my lawyer like I politely asked her last time we talked. She said she had called the doctors office for the results, thanks and that she didn't want to have the conversation over the phone. I'm sorry. My thoughts are she would rather just let me find out through her lawyer rather than telling me because she is chicken, my opinion.

I said I put myself out there and I know my problems but I don't feel like you ever did that which is your choice but this was not all me. (I know this was probably not the best thing to say but I'm done taking all the blame for this). I don't want to live this open marriage anymore so if what you are doing makes you happy then so be it. I'm a work in progress but so are all of us. Your cold reaction to me lately sends enough message. I wish you were honest about all the other guys through all this as I feel like you made me compete but oh well.

She said back-I'm sorry, but I do feel this is best for me. I can't go back to feeling like crap all the time. I know you say you have Changed and that's great but I can't do it.

Me-Well I'm sorry you feel that way and that you always felt like crap. I have changed but saying that means nothing only actions do. Have you changed? I don't want you to "do it anymore" but neither do I. That life is over. I want to start over but that is up to you. (She did not respond).

I know I'm going to get 2x4's for this but I telling you the truth to what I said, partially because I'm tired of her manipulation of me and these games. I most likely let my feelings get the best of me for part of it but I was also honest as well. I'm tired of being responsible for her feeling like crap or her anger. I'm not taking it anymore and I'm tired of being the nice guy that apologizes for everything (I know I did in this text) and a fixer which I know I was. Sorry for the partial vent but I'm done living like this anymore. I choose to detach (which I still have some more work to do) and move on.
Snowman,
I am in a similiar sitch my wife filed for divorce in Jan 2012 and I moved up to a house I was remodeling about an hour away. We had our 18th anniversary in March and I sent her a small text telling her that I did not forget what day it was, but I did not do anything beyond that...
I bought and completed a Mort Fortel course called marriage fitness which is an excellent course, but I am not bugging her about whether she wants to go thru the course...I just leave her alone...
Gandi said: "become the change in the world you desire", and I have made the statement that "you get what you give" both are true and accurate...
I know that we guys tend to want to FIX things, but in these sitch we have to back off and do nothing...
Mort Fertels Marriage Fitness course is a great alternative to marriage counseling...
I quickly learned that MC was not worth a hoot, but Mort takes you back to the basics that helped us all fall in love...and stay in love...
At this point I am quietly trying to let her work it out in her mind, but I have accepted that we might end up divorced...
It is what it is...
Please know that you are not alone in all of this...
Thanks and try to stay positive...
Telling a woman you have changed is the same as telling a bartender your good for it. Get ya next time.

Both will flat out not believe you on it.

Never tell a woman you have changed. Its very weak.

The only way to change is to quietly address what you need to change. Work at changing that behavior. If you slip or mess up. You own up to it right away. And continue to work at it.

Soon enough you will change.

And only you will know it.

And that is all who needs to know.

Actions. Not words my friend.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
Well I got into a little bit a a heated text battle with my W a day or so ago. My W likes to call to talk to my S at random times everyday and while I'm fine with it also makes things hard because I have to explain to my S where she is every time.


You need to let these go to voice mail. Then call back later that day when your busy. Be polite ,short and to the point. Then end the conversation.

Anyway my W called and talked to my S and hangs up immediately so she can avoid communication with me.
Originally Posted By: Snowman
I texted her to inform her the doctor office called to give her results from her appointment and to say that it would have been nice if she could of informed me of her decision about moving ahead with the divorce instead of hearing it from my lawyer like I politely asked her last time we talked. She said she had called the doctors office for the results, thanks and that she didn't want to have the conversation over the phone. I'm sorry. My thoughts are she would rather just let me find out through her lawyer rather than telling me because she is chicken, my opinion.


Why are you doing this to yourself? Doctors and lawyers. ON the doctors. Next time one calls. Just tell her to update her number, hope things are ok. . And after that. Her problem.

The lawyers. This is what lawyers do. It is how it is done. Communicate through your lawyer.

Originally Posted By: Snowman

I said I put myself out there and I know my problems but I don't feel like you ever did that which is your choice but this was not all me. (I know this was probably not the best thing to say but I'm done taking all the blame for this). I don't want to live this open marriage anymore so if what you are doing makes you happy then so be it. I'm a work in progress but so are all of us. Your cold reaction to me lately sends enough message. I wish you were honest about all the other guys through all this as I feel like you made me compete but oh well.

She said back-I'm sorry, but I do feel this is best for me. I can't go back to feeling like crap all the time. I know you say you have Changed and that's great but I can't do it.

Me-Well I'm sorry you feel that way and that you always felt like crap. I have changed but saying that means nothing only actions do. Have you changed? I don't want you to "do it anymore" but neither do I. That life is over. I want to start over but that is up to you. (She did not respond).

I know I'm going to get 2x4's for this but I telling you the truth to what I said, partially because I'm tired of her manipulation of me and these games. I most likely let my feelings get the best of me for part of it but I was also honest as well. I'm tired of being responsible for her feeling like crap or her anger. I'm not taking it anymore and I'm tired of being the nice guy that apologizes for everything (I know I did in this text) and a fixer which I know I was. Sorry for the partial vent but I'm done living like this anymore. I choose to detach (which I still have some more work to do) and move on.


Good for you snowman. You admitted more here to yourself than to Mrs. Snowman.

Read this over a few times. And think of the conversation.

I think you have had one of those moments. Where you are realizing what you have become. Faking it no longer works for anyone. So now you are deciding its time to start getting back on your two feet.
I forgot to add. Switch now to communicating in writing. Emails or text.

You gotta start to forget the voice for the next while.
Originally Posted By: chatterbug
I forgot to add. Switch now to communicating in writing. Emails or text.

You gotta start to forget the voice for the next while.


That was hard for me... and I think for my W, as well... she still sometimes asks me to call her (she doesn't have my direct line, although my kids do).

But it helped me tremendously... plus, it's nice to have stuff in writing for referencing back on. Not to prove the other wrong, but to help you remember things... like schedules...
Twom7-Thanks for the support and recommendation on Mort Fortel's Marriage Fitness. I signed up for the emails for now. I love your statements and plan on looking at them each day. I agree that men are fixers and I fall into that category. I will try to stay positive and thanks for reminding me I'm not alone. Its hard to remember that all the time.

Chatterbug-I agree that saying I have changed is a pointless endeavor but she made the comment to me in the text. We did talk about that in the last face to face communication so thats why she referred to it in text. I agree with you actions not words

She usually texts me before calling to see if she can talk to our S so I guess she is somewhat respecting my time but I don't do this to her because I find it annoying, confuses our S, and awkward because she hangs up to avoid conversation. She got mad at me a while back by saying that I was avoiding her phone calls to our S so I have fielded them. Her calling this weekend really bothers me because she most likely hanging with the OM in the other state and has totally conceded anytime with our S but she wants to call. Family asks me when she is getting our S and I say she is not because she chose to go out of town.

The doctor call was a voice mail saying they had the results and that she would have to call to get them. I know what the results are for and it is not a big deal.

Yes lawyers love to communicate for us and charge me for every email but yes I get the point but I still think she is chicken.

I do know what I have become and I'm working on planting my feet again. We almost always communicate through email or text so no problem there.

Thanks again for all the feedback and support. This support group is what I need for objectivity and learning. Catch you on the flipside.
Snowman. I am just saying that right now she is not able to communicate with you on the financial and legal aspect of the marriage. Down the road. Perhaps. But the lawyers are a necessary evil upfront for down the road. As long as you are preparing everything you will not waste your time with your lawyer.... I do not know about her.

Perhaps you should explain it to her that calling it in is not being a mother. If she wants to talk to her son then she needs to spend time with him. That is her choice to be away from him. As you full well know.

And you know your being 100% correct in your thoughts on dealing with this. Especially how you handle family. Good call. Anger from her you can deal with. As she cannot deal with reality.

Again. It was her choice to be away from your son.

I think sometime she needs a reply along these lines.

"I understand that your choice to be away from our son is difficult( or just the classic ... I am sorry you feel that way). But I have decided that it in our sons best interest to limit the conversations as this is confusing and upsetting him greatly. Take Care."

Or something along those lines.

Validation and a truth dart.

That one will say more than anything else.

And you can let her sit on that one for awhile.

Toughlove.



And you know if she comes back with threatening taking the son away.

The words need to be.

"You are free to leave, but you will not be taking our son from his home."


Another topic...

So what are your plans this week.

I will give you a few of mine. So you can keep me on target. You can ask here on in my thread.

1. Runs - 3 , 4 ,3 ,7 miles
2. Workouts - Monday (done ) Wed , Friday

Personal growth this week. smile just enjoy the beautiful april weather.
Hang in there, Snowbuddy!!


Starsky
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