Rock and an hard place

[ANS]

Hi everyone,

I doubt anyone remembers me. I haven't been on the boards for years, but I used to spend a lot of time here.

Guess I'm a newcomer, all over again

Not sure if I'll come back for more than a visit. I don't want to get into a pitty party, and I don't know if there's anything new I'm willing to try.

I've been on the roller coaster. Tried a lot of things; including 180, going grey (never went completely dark), but mostly just acting as-if.

Acting As-if has resulted in W acting as-if this is the way I want things to be. Don't know if she really believes it or not, but she seems to think that she got a life, and so should I.

In the past few years, our kids all moved out of the house. Except for our youngest who is handicapped, and will require supervision for the rest of his life. As soon as there was a free bedroom, W moved into it.

S4’s supervision falls upon me, so GAL is not an option for me. I make a good living for us, and between work and taking care of my autistic son, I don't have time or energy for myself.

About a year ago, I suffered an heart attack. I thought I glimpsed a glimmer of caring, but in retrospect, it was more likely concern over lost income.

Well... I know this sounds pretty negative. Any time I tried to change things, W told me she was “sick and tired of my negativity.” Sometimes, it just seems that no matter what you do, it gets twisted around.

But no matter what, I have to be true to myself in one respect. The bookstores are full of advice regarding putting yourself first. My W has accused me of succumbing to what “society” dictates. She has accused me of all sorts of chauvinism. But I firmly believe that regardless of the rampant divorce rate, and the “what’s in it for me” attitude towards marriage, it’s up to me to put whatever I can INTO my M. And that marriage is a life-long commitment. Even if it is one-sided.

[~ kd ~]

I would think you coming back here to talk about this is a meaningful step for you, Andy.

The biggest question here I think might be, "What do YOU want?"

[ANS]

Thanks for your response, Kaffe.

The question is easy to answer. I want a life with my W. Not (as she once accused me of), exclusively, but we've been married for 28 years (plus 4 cohabitation).

I'm very lonely. I've devoted myself to my wife and family. I was hoping that at this point in my life, I would have a close relationship with my wife, and my adult children.

I have a good relationship with them, but naturally, my kids are concentrating on their own relationships.

I don't know if W wants the same thing as me, and just feels that she can't have it with me, or if she just wants to be free.

Our life hasn't been an easy one. Autism is very hard to live with, and my W has borne the brunt of the difficulties. Maybe she just thinks it's my turn now. I'm sure she doesn't see how hard things are for me. Society kinda assumes that women (my W was a stay-at-home mom) are the nurturers, and the dads are kinda peripheral. She has no idea how hard it was for me when I had to work out of town, being away from my family whilst she was working so hard to get help for our autistic son. Everyone acknowledges how hard it was for her. Everyone thinks that I was just a bystander. Easy! Go to work, and don't have to care.

But I digress.

I don't know if coming back to the boards is a meaningful step, or just feeling a need to vent, or have some sort of human contact.

Thanks for listening.

[~ kd ~]

Not a problem, Andy.

While there is no autism or other intellectual labels within my family, I am closely associated with that community and understand how difficult it can be on individuals and families. I just want to offer that you seek out any further supportive organizations and people, even if you have some. I've met some really great people in that community and know that when someone needs respite, it can be a god send. The challenge it can be on a marriage is tremendous. Having the opportunity to have "couple time" could be very helpful for you and your W.

Anyhow, just a thought.

I've been watching some videos on that popular video web site done by a certain, well known personal growth speaker specifically about relationships. I'd certainly recommend that you seek out the videos or DVDs as I found a HUGE amount of value in how people relate to each other and how those relationships can be transformed in massive ways. They might be helpful for you.

I get from your words your resentment of feeling you didn't contribute to your family. And I'd put bets that's shown up in how you've engaged your W and your life. As that public speaker I mentioned would say, a man might have a tendency to withdraw under the apparent attacks.

In the DB words, it might be a good time for a 180 in which, rather than withdrawing, you step towards your W and your involvement. Your W might be feeling you don't love her because you're withdrawing. Maybe she's chasing you to get your attention and love. I get that. I am sure that's a big contributor in my own sitch.

It appears to me that you are in a decent position where you can really work DB and become that fantastic husband that you really want to be.

So maybe some of that was off the mark, only you know. Just my thoughts. I do wish you well.

[ANS]

Thanks again, Kaffe.

I'm not sure resentment is the right word, but I certainly feel unappreciated, and you're probably correct that it shows through. My W always felt unappreciated too, though I always tried to show my appreciation. Until, one day she asked me to stop. She no longer wanted either appreciation or affection from me.

As to withdrawal, you're probably right about that too. But, to be honest, the withdrawal was a 180 for me. I was one of those people who pushed when she pulled away.

And MAN! did she pull away!

I'd love to do another 180, but frankly, it hurts too much. Any attempt by me to bring us closer met with the typical pullback by her, and I just can't take the rejection anymore.

So, for the forseeable future, the only thing I can think of is to support her the best I can without any reciprocity.

One thing I've learned is that it's no use to give someone what YOU want. I try to give her what SHE wants.

And as callous as it sounds, the only thing she seems to want is my income, and for me to take responsibility for our son so she has the freedom to so her thing.

I honestly think she thinks I'm fine with that. Otherwise, I'd push back.

I tried pushing back, but whether it was poorly executed on my part (very likely) or badly received on her part (just as likely), she saw it as "being negative."

That's the "rock and an hard place" I refer to in the subject of this thread.

If it were possible to view my old threads (they're years old now), you'd probably see a common theme. I just try to be the best Andy I can be. I do that for W, and I also do it for me.

No matter how rejected I feel, I can look myself in the mirror and say I've done my best, continue to do my best, and will always do my best.

[~ kd ~]

There's a whole bunch of stuff that you've written that really is great stuff to reflect on.

While you felt you were showing appreciation, she asked you to stop.

Would that be because she doesn't want appreciation, or is it because she doesn't want it from you, or is it because it is not how she feels appreciated?

Generally, people don't ask us to do something for them, if they like how it feels...

Also, the bit about giving without receiving. So important, yet difficult, to give unconditionally.

Eventually, we need our needs met.

But it's not about keeping score, nor is it about giving conditionally. But it is important to know that a WAS generally leaves because their needs aren't being met. WAS is just a label and like MLC, it can be viewed negatively. Yet we would probably encourage anyone to quit their job if they weren't being paid. So if we were the ones who, over an extended period of time were not getting our needs met... well... we'd become the WAS...

What are your needs? Does your W know what they are? Have you asked (in a positive way) for them to be met? You don't have to tell your W to meet them. And you shouldn't expect your W to meet them.

Your W may think you should just KNOW what her needs are. Or maybe she THINKS she told you what her true needs are, but didn't take the time to ensure you understood.

I met my W's needs in many ways, more so and especially at the beginning of my M. Yet... over time I withdrew and I found my needs being met less and less. It's interesting to see how that happens.

I too focused a lot on the money, because my W seemed so focused on it. Yes... she was... yet while I took my role as stay at home parent very seriously... I also really enjoyed it and in the end, I chose that over getting a real job and financially supporting the family (or financially supporting the family in a stronger way; as I did bring in money to the family).

So again, is it about the money? Or has that simply become the token elephant in the room which draws focus on the many things that both of you can provide to each other and remain connected or regain your connection?

I do feel you have a good perspective of being the best you and keep moving forward and growing as you can.

[~ kd ~]

lol, this was mis stated above:

"Generally, people don't ask us to stop doing something for them, if they like how it feels..."

[ANS]

Thanks for your thoughts, Kaffe,

To answer your question, I would say that W wanted me to stop showing my appreciation because she didn’t believe I was sincere. Also, I expressed my appreciation for little things. Things that were important to me, but seemed trivial to her. I think it kinda made her feel inadequate. And I think the biggest reason she wanted me to stop was that she was looking for a way out of her commitment to me, so she was not in a mind to hear anything positive.

There’s something that I learned (I mentioned it in a previous post). The Golden Rule is missing something. To give unto others as you would have them give unto you assumes that s/he wants the same thing(s) as you. The real act of giving is to give the other person what s/he would have you give them.

However, I think that the unfortunate side effect of this can be that the other person can assume that you aren’t sacrificing anything. My W wants “space.” I give her space. My W wants freedom. I take responsibility for our son, and am the major income earner in our family. I think she may think that I want space, and I want to spend more time with S18, and maybe even that I’m a workaholic.

What are your needs? Does your W know what they are? Have you asked (in a positive way) for them to be met?

It’s easy for W to misinterpret my desires because her misinterpretations fit my behavior, and justifies her behavior. I can’t tell her otherwise because if I do, she takes it as negativity on my part. I may not have expressed my feelings very well in the past, and these perceptions are now cast in stone.

I know this flies in the face of the GAL philosophy, but my biggest need is the companionship of my W. She is not of a mind to provide that need. Our communications has utterly broken down, and she blames me. It’s the classical “Why should I meet your needs, when you never cared about mine.”

The only time we discussed MC was when she suggested it so we could tell our kids that we tried and failed. Then we could use the councilor to help us ease the effects of our breakup on our kids.

I don’t have the free time or the energy to GAL. Sounds like a cop out, and I suppose it’s always possible to do things for me. But in so doing, I’d have to give something up that I am not willing to give up.

It’s hard to explain, but basically, W is not entirely wrong. I don’t need space, but I do need to be the best father that my son could possibly have. It’s a sacrifice, but it’s also what I need to do for my own self esteem.

Maybe a little background on me can explain it.

My older brother was schizophrenic. My parents divorced when I was about 8 years old. My mother passed away when I was 15. All of this plunged me into a situation where I felt like I had to take care of my other brother and sister. I always felt that my mom passed away from the shear stress of having to raise a family by herself under these circumstances.

I know what it feels to be abandoned by my brother (when he lost contact with reality), my father (who messed up his marriage to the point where he was no longer part of his own family), and my mother (not her fault, but she was gone none the less).

I will not allow that to happen to my family.

I’m not saying that I’m perfect, but I can say in all honesty that I try to be.

[~ kd ~]

Hey Andy,

I may be a bit scarce for a while as I sort some of my stuff out. I'm sure others will be along to help support you.

I did want to leave you with a couple thoughts:

+ I think the "Do unto others" is more about "SHOWING borders, as well as leading by example"

+ I agree that we should not give conditionally (I'll scratch your back IF you scratch mine) and that giving is NOT about getting back BECAUSE one gives. Rather, giving unconditionally with no expectations of return, in ANY way, shape, form, or vector.

+ In the end, I do believe that "lesser of the evils" is how to approach choosing actions. IOW, your indication that you sacrificed does not have to make you a martyr. Unless you set your sacrifice on a pedestal for all to see. I didn't necessarily see my actions of being highly focused as the stay at home parent as sacrifice, although I DID understand that by doing that and not getting a real job to financially provide for my family was a major issue for my W. For me, I was damned either way. So I chose what I felt was best for the kids and best for me... In some ways... I sacrificed my W and my M...

I do think you have your head on straight, Andy... It is written here often that no matter how we grow through this experience, we don't change our core values and we don't have to do things that have no value to us and don't have any value for our kids or spouses...

We don't have to change WHO we are... just little, consistent efforts that exchange what may be negative behaviours for positive behaviours which still honour our core values and end goals...

Wishing you the best...

[MAL]

Hi Andy. I finally found your thread. I wanted to stop and say thanks for the input on my new thread that I put on Newcomers a couple weeks ago. Your kindness and input about the sitch with my exBF was much appreciated. I needed a guy's point of view.

I decided that I really belong under Surviving, where I used to be, so I've started a new thread over there.

I need to read up on your sitch. Happy to help, listen, or just be a friend.

[ANS]

I'm putting the links from my OOOOOOOOOOLD posts. Not because I expect anyone to read them, they're just there in case I want to go back and "reminisce."

Struggling with Perceptions
Burying the Past
How can I listen if she won’t talk?
Goin’ with the Flow
Balance
Swan Dive off the Pedestal
The Boxer
180+180=360
Nowhere to go

These threads were deleted, but the subjects are:
Andy's Story
We don't know how the future will turn out
Bringing the Walls Down with a Teaspoon

If you feel the need to view any of these, maybe you need to GAL

[ANS]

I just saw this over on Indecision and the affair continues (Part 2) and just had to repost it here.

It's so true!

We now live in a society that doesn't reward personal responsibility....the schools are too hard, everybody is a winner, and hard work isn't rewarded but almost frowned upon. So why should it be different in a failed marriage...it is always the other spouses fault. I am not a religious man, but they had it right when they said he who hasn't sinned can throw the first stone. Hence in our world the biggest step we can make is not blaming the runaway spouse, but instead looking in the mirror and say "What could I have done differently?". Now that doesn't mean you are the cause of his actions....just taking ownership in our part of what has happened.

[ANS]

I guess since I'm mostly lurking nowadays, I'd like to post some stuff that strikes a chord with me.

Here's another one:

Think of your thoughts and feelings as being "theories" or "ideas." They might be true. Then again, they might not be. Once you learn to question the validity of your patterns of thought, you might realize that things are not quite as black-and-white as you may have previously assumed.

[ANS]

Here's an oldie but goodie:

Ali- as someone who posted to you, and sincerely sought to help you save your marriage if it was at all possible, I will try to answer some of your questions (I will preface it by saying that from what I know of your situation, I would probably feel the same way towards your H as you do. I will also add, I don't know how I would feel if I only heard his side of the story).

Addressing your later statements first, the goal of winning a WAW back is not to have her return to the "same guy again." Instead, the goal is for the DBing spouse to examine what it was that his W fell in love with and Change his behavior, making a life change, not a temporary one. As you have read on the boards, DBing should be a way of life. Sincere change, not tricks. I don't recall from your other posts if you picked up DBing or if you have read the whole book but that is what Michele is prescribing- change one's behavior, understand what your spouse is feeling and stop doing that which continues to make your spouse resent you.

Last I saw, your H has continuing the same behaviors that got you to this WAW point so of course you have no reason to feel differently unless you decide you want to change the dynamics of your relationship but that seems unfair, doesn't it?

As you have noticed many WAS's are also involved in EA's or PA's and this is why many Dbers talk about "Alien abduction." This spouse who promised to love honor and cherish till death "do us part" is involved with someone else, this feels like this is not the person the DBer married. Often rage comes from the WAW and many times the DBer did not have a deep understanding of how truly badly the marriage was failing, trouble yes but near fatal? From a DBer's perspective, they are wondering, "who abducted my spouse?" I have never referred to my wife's dissatisfaction with our marriage as an alien abduction and have truly sought to understand how she got to feel the way she did an das you may recall, my marriage is very much recovering.

I think you make a great point about how a WAW can feel much better once they drop the bomb, separate or actually file. The burden has been lifted and they are on track to solve their problem the only way they see they can. From the WAW's perspective, they may have pleaded, requested, hinted or demanded change to no avail. To a WAW, DBing may be seen as too little too late, or just a temporary fix so your insight will be very helpful to Dbers as to why the WAW does not change their mind when a DBer does a 180. This is why Michele emphasizes "patience." In many cases it took years of effort by the WAW to try to get a DBer to change and it may take years of DBing to show the WAW that the DBer really did learn what their spouse wants and needs. When a WAW (my wife as an example) sees that the changes are sincere and designed to be long lasting, they sometimes chose to give the marriage another chance.

DBing is not about manipulation but more about understanding interpersonal relationships, learning about one's spouses deep hurt, learning what behaviors trigger what kind of reactions and making changes. If I learn that defending my actions to my spouse only make her more angry but that expressing understanding about her hurt calms her down such that I can later, calmly talk with her about the issue, is that manipulation or is it learning to better communicate?

Ali, I have felt your frustration with your H, and you have done more to come here and ask questions than most other WAW (or future WAW's) have done. Your comments and those of Nicky and others are helpful to many Dbers who are trying to understand what their spouses are going through. I wish you well, however things turn out but it is my wish that your H was a serious Dber and that his changes became real and long lasting such that you could give your twins a household with both a mother and father who love each other and them.

C2H

BTW, it has Michelles stamp of approval:

Dear Committed2Him,
I couldn't have responded any better than you even if I tried (Even if I tried really hard ) I just love your wise response and I'm going to post Ali's question and your response where it belongs- the wise advice forum. Thanks for being here and helping others as you do.
Michele

[ANS]

And speaking of Michelle...

From Divorce Busting:

Sometimes after reading about doing a 180 people wonder, "isn't this technique like game playing? Isn't it manipulative?" Continuing to do the same old thing even though it doesn't work is no less game-like than doing something different. In fact, since relationships are like seesaws, if one person expresses all the optimism and confidence, the other person is free to feel all the pessimism and insecurity. Spouses often balance each other out in this way. When one person's views are extreme, it forces his or her partner to adopt an equally extreme view in the opposite direction.

[ANS]

Just have to repost this on my thread:

It's not over until it's over, snowman.

This is just a part of the process. A lot can happen before the papers are filed and processed.

In the mean time, this is the time when we learn just as much of what we are made. This is the time when we let go, lovingly. And where we also let go any anger, resentment, and bitterness that we might want to feel.

That stuff can kill us and certainly isn't healthy for us.

Instead of casting judgment on your W, work to find it in yourself to accept this is the path that she is choosing (at this time) and support her (but you don't have to help her or do it for her) in achieving her goals. Like you would help any friend achieve their goals.

It is up to you how you want to handle this. There continues to be no right or wrong. Just choices, dignity, and integrity.

KD's post to Snowman struck a chord with me.

In a sense, my sit is similar to Snowman.

Finances are an issue between W and I. After the birth of our first child, 26 years ago, I was the soul bread winner. Neither of us considered the money that came in as "yours" and "mine." We didn't spend a cent without consulting each other.

About 10 years ago, I started working from home. Our kids (except for our autistic son) were independent enough that they didn’t need her constant attention, and since I was at home, I could take over a large part of caring for S2 (autistic), so W went back to school, and then back to work.

So, now, W had “her own money.” I never considered “my” money to be anything other than “ours.”

For the most part, I still don’t, but I have indulged myself on occasion. The biggy was a trip to Asia with D1. That one didn’t particularly bother my W, but she gets her back up anytime I express my discomfiture with her spending. In fact, I don’t have a problem with her expenditures – whether on herself or for family purposes. My problem is that she just goes ahead and spends without so much as telling me.

Basically, W got a life, and to her, my only purpose on this planet is to facilitate that. We no longer do anything together. No longer consult on family issues. She does her thing on the assumption that I’ll take care of S2 whilst she’s out.

I’m lonely!

So... I hear all those DB-ers out there telling me to “get a pair,” “don’t be a doormat,” stand up to her. GAL. Protect yourself.

Here’s the kicker. I don’t believe that following her lead is consistent with being the Andy I want to be.

There continues to be no right or wrong. Just choices, dignity, and integrity.

There’s no right or wrong in the sense that I am right, and W is wrong. However, for my own sense of dignity and integrity, I have to do what I believe in. In other words, W has to do what she thinks is right. And regardless of what she believes, I have to do what I think is right.

[Mach1]

There’s no right or wrong in the sense that I am right, and W is wrong. However, for my own sense of dignity and integrity, I have to do what I believe in. In other words, W has to do what she thinks is right. And regardless of what she believes, I have to do what I think is right.

[Mach1]

There’s no right or wrong in the sense that I am right, and W is wrong. However, for my own sense of dignity and integrity, I have to do what I believe in. In other words, W has to do what she thinks is right. And regardless of what she believes, I have to do what I think is right.

Well crap......hit submit before I was ready...



I will say this, there is no right or wrong way to do anything in this...

There is , however , a way to do it that is right or wrong for your situation...

You are only a doormat if you allow yourself to be one...

You are only taken advantage of , if you allow that to happen..

[~ kd ~]

Do what is right for you, Andy. Be the person you ARE and that you want to be. Be aware of and responsible to your actions.

Whomever wants to be part of your life, because of who you are and the genuine nature of your being... open up to allow them in...

Shed yourself of vampires. They hurt us in more ways than we sometimes see.

Remember: You cannot help others unless you help yourself.

We hear that saying and often relate it to money.

Here's the reality that is known by nature... If we do not eat, we cannot hunt to feed others. If we do not take care of our personal safety, we cannot protect others. If we do not love ourselves... we cannot love others... If we are not who we are... if we are not genuine in ourselves... we cannot support others to be genuine in themselves...

[ANS]

Thanks Guys

You are only a doormat if you allow yourself to be one...

You are only taken advantage of , if you allow that to happen..

Absolutely, Mach1.

I wonder, though...

What is the litmus test for being (or allowing yourself to be) a doormat. It's kind of in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

We all have to do things that we don't like. Sometimes someone else depends on you to do such things.

I suppose that if one allows this to be one sided, then one is allowing themself to be a doormat.

But whether or not the situation is one sided is a matter of perception.

A WAS feels that they've been a doormat, and will not stand for it anymore. The tables are often turned on the LBS.

It can get kinda circular, methinks.

I guess it still comes down to this:

...there is no right or wrong way to do anything in this...

There is , however , a way to do it that is right or wrong for your situation...

And the trick is to get an accurate picture of what your situation really is. Not very easy when you're in the middle of it.

Everything you posted is true, KD.

As far as the doormat thing goes, I think the circle can only be broken if one follows this advice:

Do what is right for you, Andy. Be the person you ARE and that you want to be. Be aware of and responsible to your actions.

[~ kd ~]

This is a good conversation!

WAS: I am going out with my friends and leaving my spouse to take care of the kids.

LBS: I can't believe my spouse is leaving me home with the kids.

or

WAS: I am going out with my friends and leaving my spouse to take care of the kids.

LBS: I get to spend alone time with my kids!

It IS a matter of perspective.

The WAS perspective did not change. It may appear as though they are taking advantage of the LBS.

The LBS gets to CHOOSE whether they want to feel victim or if they want to feel gratitude.

When we are in resistance, it's a fight between two people and a win/loose situation of who is getting the upper hand.

When we are in acceptance, there becomes no fight. Any possible negative intention of the WAS is deflated in one fell swoop of a positively intended attitude and choice of the LBS.

[Mach1]

What is the litmus test for being (or allowing yourself to be) a doormat. It's kind of in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

The test I always used was, when the actions that I was facing, sacrificed my core values.

But then again, one has to know them self well enough to clearly define those values, to know the difference.

It is a circular - chicken or egg - kind of debate.


I do feel that fear can cause a lot of LBS to become a doormat, regardless of their core if they choose to not face those fears and address things from a rational point of view, instead of an emotional point of view.

Early in nearly every situation, are the times that the LBS SHOULD lay down the boundaries, to avoid later behaviors becoming a problem, yet most are paralyzed by the fear that one more wrong thing will doom their situation, or that one magic thing they do correctly will "fix" their situation, that they simply cannot know that fine line.



Great topic A...

I would love to hear more perspectives on it....

[PEI]

Grit will be along with some sort of philosophical "you're a doormat if you think you're a doormat" post I'm sure

I basically agree with Mach (shhhhh)!

Being a doormat is the result of not being able to set or enforce boundaries. Being able to set and enforce boundaries is a result of being strong in your knowledge of who you are and what you stand for.

The fear of not restoring the situation is paralyzing, especially if you've only ever defined your adult self as a spouse (and parent, in a two parent environment). It's kind of like "being a doormat" is a necessary part of the process for most of us, because it seems that many of us lost our way too.

[ANS]

Hi Guys,

This is a good conversation!

Yeah. good conversation! It's interesting. I have stong feelings about this, but have an hard time articulating them.

... When we are in acceptance, there becomes no fight. Any possible negative intention of the WAS is deflated in one fell swoop of a positively intended attitude and choice of the LBS.

Yep. If one can stop contributing to negative perceptions (and eventually even create some positive ones), you leave nothing substantial for the WAS to resent.

In order for the WAS to push back, s/he needs something to push against.

I only remember two things from physics class:

E=mc2 and you can't push on a string.

The test I always used was, when the actions that I was facing, sacrificed my core values.

But then again, one has to know them self well enough to clearly define those values, to know the difference.

It is a circular - chicken or egg - kind of debate.

Very well put, Mach. A good example of one of those things that I believe, but you've articulated it so well!

And, yeah. it'd be to hear more perspectives.

[ANS]

Hi PEI,

I'm from QUE. Small world, eh?

[PEI]

Another Canuck ... whoooooot!

We're crawling out of the wood work now Mach ...

[Mach1]

Another Canuck ... whoooooot!


We're crawling out of the wood work now Mach ...

Wow, that is the shortest post ever for you...

Did your internet go down before you were finished with your other 3500 words ?

: )

[PEI]

.!..

How's that for short?

[Mach1]

LMAO !!!



Have you thought about any counseling for your anger ???

[ANS]

Have you thought about any counseling for your anger ???

Really, Mach. Don't take it personally. You gotta learn how to detach!

[Mach1]

LOL...

Ya'll are killin me down here....


PEI doesn't scare me any, ( unless she finds her way here and talks to me for three days straight , Grit says that is a boot camp for validation )

: O

[~ kd ~]

PEI doesn't scare me any, ( unless she finds her way here and talks to me for three days straight , Grit says that is a boot camp for validation )

Don't worry too much about PEI visiting you. The government made it very expensive for them types to leave the island... kinda like our own version of Alcatraz... But if she ever did, I'm sure you'd get a kick out of her accent...

[PEI]

Little do you know Kaffe ... takes a lot more than a toll bridge to keep me in one place lol. But if it came right down to it, I'd chose here over anywhere on earth ... we just made the brige expensive to keep y'all out ...

[Truegritter]

( unless she finds her way here and talks to me for three days straight , Grit says that is a boot camp for validation )

Hardest thing I ever did...validating a Prince Edward Islander into the wee hours of the morning...

My short answer?

You are a doormat if you think you are doormat.

What does it feel like when you concede to your fear.

When you feel anger or any other negative emotion you have to swallow because of your choice.

When you hang on every word or action of your spouse in hopes that they will change their mind and validate you...

Come back to you so you can feel better about yourself and not a failure.

You are a doormat.

Because you allow your self worth to be dictated by the actions or inactions of another.

IMO you must feel those doormat feelings in order to decide you don't want to be one.

You decide for YOU. You stand for YOU.

Then the only person who can call you a doormat and have it sting will be the one in the mirror.

F everyone else.

You will cease to be a doormat when you decide you are not one.

[ANS]

Hi Grit,

Yeah. I think you pretty much nailed it. You're a doormat if you feel like a doormat.

It's not so much the actions as the reason behind them.

Speaking from my own POV, I do a lot of things that other people could construe as being a doormat. I guess the reason I asked the question is that I don't believe I am a doormat.

I do what I do because I think it's the right thing to do. Not out of fear.

So for anyone who wants to tell me otherwise, I'll just refer them to you

the only person who can call you a doormat and have it sting will be the one in the mirror.

F everyone else.

[ANS]

Sorry folks, I’m gonna hijack this thread for a bit of journaling.

After all this time, I’m still struggling with Perceptions.

Way back when all of this started, I was working two jobs. It meant that I would working my day job, come home, and go out again to work my evening job. Weekends were mostly working my second job. Later, I changed jobs which meant I didn’t need the second job. However, on a fairly frequent basis, I’d be late getting home; sometimes not until the next day. Even later, I worked out of town a lot. Was gone during the week, and came home for only a day or two.

Well, to make a long story short, W got a life. And it did not include me. It did, however, include a MF. Since then, it has had all of the classical symptoms of an A. Is it an A? Or at least an EA? I truly don’t know. If it is, she’s hiding it in plain sight. It hurts me, but that’s not the point. Nothing I can do about it. W’s main priority is for the kids to think it’s OK. That’s my priority too

She has always maintained that MF is a friend like any other. I’ve never said otherwise; especially not to our kids. MF’s W basically made W and I persona non grata in her home, so I don’t serve any purpose in their (W & MF) circle anymore. I’m on the outside.

I have a friend who has maintained a friendship with MF. He also considers my W to be a friend. Sooo... fast-forward to this past weekend.

Our mutual friend popped by to tell us that he wants to throw a BD party for MF, and asked W to invite their (W & MF’s) circle of friends. It’d be kinda hard for her to say no, so it looks like we’re all going. I don’t know how W explains that she, MF, and this other couple can go out on a regular basis without me. I suspect they all figure that I don’t want to associate with them or something like that. But now we’ll all be there together.

Of course, there’s nothing I can do to show anyone how screwed up all of this is. Just wonder. Will it become evident to anyone?

Well, that’ about all I have to say about that. Time to go lie across the doorway. W will be home soon.

[~ kd ~]

There are a lot of people who enjoy catering to their spouse with things like breakfast in bed every sunday.

So yes, doormat really is a matter of perspective. And yes, if it's done out of fear, then it's probably doormat behaviour...

Sorry folks, I’m gonna hijack this thread for a bit of journaling.

I do not know if that is allowed. One of the moderators should be along soon enough to let you know if you can do that...

Of course, there’s nothing I can do to show anyone how screwed up all of this is. Just wonder. Will it become evident to anyone?

OK, I say that in NOT every situation, if it looks like cheese, it is cheese...

Still, observable human behaviour is pretty standard stuff that is internationally understood.

When we spend a lot of time with someone of the opposite sex (my acknowledgment and respect to our same sex members), there is no doubt a bond that is made that moves beyond "standard" friendships... If these people are single, then most around them will be whispering about how good they look together and offering suspicions that the two are dating...

That doesn't change just because one or both of those two are married... to other people... it just changes to tone from "aren't they cute, they should be dating" to "aren't they cute, they should have an affair"

As kids will pick up on stuff like that (and unfortunately this behaviour can be "normalized" to them), so do adults...

So having said all that, I am sure that if there isn't knowledge of something "more", there is most likely suspicions... or there eventually will be... and in some circles, it will even be open...

[ANS]

There are a lot of people who enjoy catering to their spouse with things like breakfast in bed every sunday.

Yep. I used to enjoy that very thing. I miss being allowed to do that.

... I am sure that if there isn't knowledge of something "more", there is most likely suspicions... or there eventually will be... and in some circles, it will even be open...

If you check any of the lists of “red flags” for an A, you could check off a tonne of them regarding W and her MF. Do I smell cheese? Yes, I do. I’m not stupid. However, when I look at some of the things that W had accused me of, and the reasons she accused me of them, I can’t say that there weren’t strong reasons to believe what she believes about me too. A particularly unhelpful C worked it out with her that I was “leading a secret life” so it must be true, right?

... in NOT every situation, if it looks like cheese, it is cheese

But I will say this. MF has replaced me as W’s best friend. She can say that he’s no different than a FF, but regards to him replacing me as her best friend, it doesn’t matter what his gender is. I believe H and W should be best friends. My W and I once were best friends, but now I'm only a source of income and caretaker for our autistic son, so she can do her thing.

But in practical (DB) terms, my feelings don’t matter. It’s hard not having anyone to talk to. Maybe that’s why I came back to the boards. I have to act As-If, not only to my W, but to my kids too, and in the long run, I’m concerned about this:

... kids will pick up on stuff like that (and unfortunately this behaviour can be "normalized" to them), so do adults...

My eldest three kids are adults. Will they follow W’s example 30 years from now?

Acting As-if can be a double edged sword. Society puts such an high premium on personal happiness, and M is supposed to be an happy state of give and take. W used to call me a taker, and she wasn’t happy about it. Now the tables are turned, and I have to act happy.

But like KD said,

I am sure that if there isn't knowledge of something "more", there is most likely suspicions... or there eventually will be

So, I’ll act As-if everything is hunky-dory, and maybe some day, the reality of W’s behavior will sneak into her consciousness. And maybe the irony of how her actions appear to others v.s. how my actions appeared to her and her C will also hit home.

[Truegritter]

I think in most of these cases where there is smoke there is fire.

And I disagree it does matter the gender of a close friend if your W is heterosexual.

ANS let me ask you back to my earlier diatribe on doormatism:

Does this relationship your W is having make you feel ok?

I think you are right to be concerned about what your children think. Is this the example you want to set for them?

Have you read the resources on boundaries?

I can post what I saved back when I needed them if necessary.

They are to protect you from bad choices your partner is making. And they have to have consequences for breaking them.

Give some thought to what you value in a relationship and how you would like to be treated. More importantly how you would treat someone if the roles were switched.

Would you carry on a relationship like this with a woman that excluded your W? Would YOU consider it acceptable?

Time for some thinking ANS.

[Oneeleven]

( unless she finds her way here and talks to me for three days straight , Grit says that is a boot camp for validation )

Hardest thing I ever did...validating a Prince Edward Islander into the wee hours of the morning...

My short answer?

You are a doormat if you think you are doormat.

What does it feel like when you concede to your fear.

When you feel anger or any other negative emotion you have to swallow because of your choice.

When you hang on every word or action of your spouse in hopes that they will change their mind and validate you...

Come back to you so you can feel better about yourself and not a failure.

You are a doormat.

Because you allow your self worth to be dictated by the actions or inactions of another.

IMO you must feel those doormat feelings in order to decide you don't want to be one.

You decide for YOU. You stand for YOU.

Then the only person who can call you a doormat and have it sting will be the one in the mirror.

F everyone else.

You will cease to be a doormat when you decide you are not one.

Wow. Some powerful stuff right there.

[ANS]

Thanks for your input, Grit.

I've been putting a lot of thought into what you said.

I think in most of these cases where there is smoke there is fire.

And I disagree it does matter the gender of a close friend if your W is heterosexual.

ANS let me ask you back to my earlier diatribe on doormatism:

Does this relationship your W is having make you feel ok?

As to smoke and fire, my W has come to a lot of incorrect conclusions based on that theory. I’d like not to make the same mistakes. That being said, the things that my W believe to be true have certainly given her justification for any behavior that she wouldn’t have thought right before, so I’m not foolish enough to think that it would not include an A.

But that’s not enough smoke to convince me of it. Does that whole thing make me feel OK? Nope. Does MF’s gender matter (to me)? In all honesty, it does, but it would also be a problem for me if they were two women members of the SSW.

I think you are right to be concerned about what your children think. Is this the example you want to set for them?

The example I’m setting is one of commitment. I know it may not look like that from what you know about my sit, but my kids know my feelings in that respect. If they ever have similar problems, and I’m still around, I know that I will be able to encourage them to work things out. I will be able to do that with my head held high.

Have you read the resources on boundaries?

I can post what I saved back when I needed them if necessary.

They are to protect you from bad choices your partner is making. And they have to have consequences for breaking them.

I’ve put a lot of thought into boundries. I’m not done thinking about them, but here’s the kicker...

They must have consequences for breaking them. Either that, or W would have to buy into their legitimacy. On the first point, for a variety of reasons, there are no consequences that I am willing to threaten my W with. And make no mistake about it, she would consider any consequences that I create as a threat. As to W’s buy-in, well... MF’s W pushed both W and I out of the picture. And how did MF react? By maintaining his R with W (and me to a lesser extent) behind her back. I’ve no doubt that W would do the same, and that wouldn’t be better than the way things are now. Not by a long shot.

There already are consequences to W’s actions. I occasionally see glimpses of her being aware of that too. I’m hoping (but not holding my breath) that she’ll come to a better realization of those consequences on her own; without me having to manufacture any new consequences on my own. She can no longer accuse me of being controlling. Yeah. She can accuse me of anything, but eventually the foundation of that belief crumbles to pieces.

Give some thought to what you value in a relationship and how you would like to be treated. More importantly how you would treat someone if the roles were switched.

Would you carry on a relationship like this with a woman that excluded your W? Would YOU consider it acceptable?

Of course I wouldn’t. And to answer your unasked question, I don’t consider W’s exclusion of me to be acceptable either. But I make my choices, and W makes hers.

I really think that I have to make my decisions based on what I think is right, despite what W chooses right now. I also think that W’s decisions are somewhat based on avoiding pain; particularly guilt. I don’t believe in guilt; neither mine or hers. I’ve done her wrong. No doubt about it. I don’t feel a whit of guilt over it. Instead of feeling guilt, or rationalizing my faults, I’ve tried to correct anything that I’ve become aware of. I wish W could see it that way.

She’s going to have to come through it in her own way, and in her own time.

[ANS]

Haven't been around for awhile, but I just got some quotes that I think apply to DB-ers, so I figured I'd share them:

PERSEVERANCE

Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance.
-- Samuel Johnson

If you are going through hell, keep going.
-- Winston Churchill

No great thing is created suddenly.
-- Epictetus

Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.
-- Thomas Edison

You may encounter many defeats, but you must not be defeated. In fact, it may be necessary to encounter the defeats, so you can know who you are, what you can rise from, how you can still come out of it.
-- Maya Angelou

[~ kd ~]

Nice ones!

How you doin', Andy? I'm guessing by the post that you're still keepin' at 'er...

[ANS]

Yep. Not going anywhere fast, but if I'm anything, its stubborn. Just ask my W