Hello,
This has been the absolutely worst week of my life. The love of my life has told me she no longer wants to be married to me. Today is Thursday and she dropped this bomb on Saturday night. Here is our story. I'll try not ramble, but it may still be a long post.
I'm 46, she's 42. We've been together for 24 years and married 17 of those. We have three beautiful children, 10, 7 & 5.
The ongoing issues between us for the majority of those years has been her lack of sex drive, my apparent lack of support for her ideas because of my desire to play devils advocate, dysfunctional arguing (yelling, never satisfying and going to bed angry), and finally her lack of trust that she could ever depend on me in any serious way.
The last couple of years I've been working, successfully I think, to reduce my passion when arguing and fully supporting her ideas without taking the wind from her sails. The point being that I think I know where I am in my life and where I want to go; improving myself, and trying to be the best husband and father I can possibly be.
I come from a large family with parents that stayed together. My wife not so lucky, with her mom taking her and her brother and sister away when she was only about 11 (the oldest).
After moving home about 9 years ago, leaving basically two normal jobs, we now have an extremely, extremely busy life. The kids of course plus; I have a 40+ hrs/week job as a general mgr, together we own a small farm, a complimentary business which she mostly runs, she has taken on even much more, working with the grade school, started a growers co-op, working on grants and studies. She has an engineering degree and has for several years now been quite disappointed that she's not in a "successful career" and would have trouble utilizing her degree given the time that has past. She is extremely smart, strong and independent. Her plate is very very full.
Interestingly enough, this last summer has been one of the best for us on record. She has been very happy, has a great body self image, and there has been a ton of affection between us barely seen since we were in college. It has been wonderful for me and I really felt her love - a look, a touch, a compliment and of course more sex.
Recently, the last couple of weeks she was not feeling well, sinus infection and coughing. Plus with some traveling and a hectic schedule we didn't have much meaningful conversation and little affection. Over the years, when we haven't been able to spend any quality time like this, I try to always tell her that I love her and not only in those words. Something I've also said has been I miss you. This wasn't only when actually gone but if there was some aspect of our relationship missing, including, but definitely not always, sex. It turns out this was an inflammatory phrase and I never knew it. It was the catalyst this time.
When I said it this time, she figured I meant sex. She's sick and I never would have meant that, it hurts me even to think she'd go there. But given the number of years it's been an issue for us I can understand why she did. However it must have been like a slap in the face given how great our summer has been. I can imagine she was thinking "it's never enough is it".
One more note before relating the big talk. There has been an old boyfriend of hers in the picture. I've always tried to be open to her having close friends regardless of gender. However with this guy, they dated in high school, she went out with him when we broke up for short time in college, and she has lengthy talks (1 hr+) almost daily and usually when one of is not at home. She is adamant that this relationship has nothing to do with what is going on with us.
Saturday night she told me that her plate is too full, she need to clean it off, and because of my comments, it includes me as well. I think my heart stopped. She thinks that we'll wait out the rest of the school year and then she's moving away with the kids. I'm devastated, as I feel I've done nothing wrong, at least to this extent. I'm sure there are more things I need to work on and I'm willing to do that, and have proven it in the last couple of years. She is adamantly opposed to going to counseling with me.
I found this site during my sleepless nights this week, and have found some success in just reading the information available here. I just got the DB book and will begin reading the other chapters during my wakeful moments tonight.
There are more details, and other significant events in our history. But this pretty much sums it up.
I love her madly, I worship my kids. I want us back. And I want us moving forward, learning new tools for dealing with the issues that drag us down. I just don't know how to get there. And I'm sure it won't happen fast enough for my mr. fixit attitude.
Thanks for reading.
A word of encouragement, advice, anything?
I don't think I really understand what her issues with you are- what does she say the problem is? What are her complaints? I read what YOU think the problems are, but what would SHE say?
Hi garwain-
As I was reading through, my questions were EXACTLY the same as realormakebeliev's. We see things so clearly through our own eyes, but our partner has a completely different experience.
Your fastest way to working through things, is tell the story from her experience. Begin. You will find you can't (if you think you can, you are missing it, because you need to dig, and ask, and LISTEN).
When you LISTEN, listen to the WHOLE picture, not just her words. Do listen to her words, but pay attention to her nonverbals.
The tools are what you need, the skillset. Have you read Divorce Remedy? I recommend that or the Keeping Love Alive MP3 (depending on whether you learn best by reading or listening).
In the meantime, what you focus on expands. What are the good things between you at this point in time?
garwaye--I'm making some notes here about the places where you need to pay attention, dig deeper or make some changes.
Hello,
This has been the absolutely worst week of my life. The love of my life has told me she no longer wants to be married to me. Today is Thursday and she dropped this bomb on Saturday night. Here is our story. I'll try not ramble, but it may still be a long post.
I'm 46, she's 42. We've been together for 24 years and married 17 of those. We have three beautiful children, 10, 7 & 5.
The ongoing issues between us for the majority of those years has been her lack of sex drivewhen did this begin, is it always or ongoing, or when she's tired, etc, ... how do you react?, my apparent lack of support for her ideas because of my desire to play devils advocatehow would SHE describe this, dysfunctional arguing (yellingwho? whyu do you call this dysfunctional, never satisfying always? and going to bed angrywhy is this a problem--why strike while the iron is HOT--do you and your W have different arguing styles? What do you need here? What does SHE need here----HERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR REAL GIVING--DO THINGS HER WAY), and finally her lack of trust that she could ever depend on me in any serious way.
The last couple of years I've been working, successfully I thinkwhat does SHE think, to reduce my passion when arguing and fully supporting her ideas without taking the wind from her sails does SHE FEEL supported?. The point being that I think I know where I am in my life and where I want to go; improving myself, and trying to be the best husband and father I can possibly be.
I come from a large family with parents that stayed together. My wife not so lucky, with her mom taking her and her brother and sister away when she was only about 11 (the oldest).
After moving home about 9 years ago, leaving basically two normal jobs, we now have an extremely, extremely busy life. The kids of course plus; I have a 40+ hrs/week job as a general mgr, together we own a small farm, a complimentary business which she mostly runs, she has taken on even much more, working with the grade school, started a growers co-op, working on grants and studies. She has an engineering degree and has for several years now been quite disappointed that she's not in a "successful career" and would have trouble utilizing her degree given the time that has past. She is extremely smart, strong and independent. Her plate is very very full.
Interestingly enough, this last summer has been one of the best for us on record. She has been very happy, has a great body self image, and there has been a ton of affection between us barely seen since we were in college. It has been wonderful for me and I really felt her love - a look, a touch, a compliment and of course more sex.
Recently, the last couple of weeks she was not feeling well, sinus infection and coughing. Plus with some traveling and a hectic schedule we didn't have much meaningful conversation and little affection. Over the years, when we haven't been able to spend any quality time like this, I try to always tell her that I love her and not only in those words. Something I've also said has been I miss you. This wasn't only when actually gone but if there was some aspect of our relationship missing, including, but definitely not always, sex. It turns out this was an inflammatory phrase and I never knew it. It was the catalyst this time.
When I said it this time, she figured I meant sex. She's sick and I never would have meant that, it hurts me even to think she'd go there. But given the number of years it's been an issue for us I can understand why she did. However it must have been like a slap in the face given how great our summer has been. I can imagine she was thinking "it's never enough is it".
One more note before relating the big talk. There has been an old boyfriend of hers in the picture. I've always tried to be open to her having close friends regardless of gender. However with this guy, they dated in high school, she went out with him when we broke up for short time in college, and she has lengthy talks (1 hr+) almost daily and usually when one of is not at home. She is adamant that this relationship has nothing to do with what is going on with us.
Saturday night she told me that her plate is too full, she need to clean it off, and because of my comments, it includes me as well. I think my heart stopped. She thinks that we'll wait out the rest of the school year and then she's moving away with the kids. I'm devastated, as I feel I've done nothing wrong, at least to this extent. I'm sure there are more things I need to work on and I'm willing to do that, and have proven it in the last couple of years. She is adamantly opposed to going to counseling with me.
I found this site during my sleepless nights this week, and have found some success in just reading the information available here. I just got the DB book and will begin reading the other chapters during my wakeful moments tonight.
There are more details, and other significant events in our history. But this pretty much sums it up.
I love her madly, I worship my kids. I want us back. And I want us moving forward, learning new tools for dealing with the issues that drag us down. I just don't know how to get there. And I'm sure it won't happen fast enough for my mr. fixit attitude.
Thanks for reading.
I stopped making comments halfway through, because I think it's enough to absorb. Let's work on that much first.
You are right, it won't happen fast enough for your MR.FIXIT attitude. But what you are doing ISN'T working, so if you keep at it, it will be broken. Start out slow, work through the steps--You will gain momentum and perhaps be able to fix it with tools that will allow you to KEEP IT FIXED
Hi there,
Thanks for the couple of replies, but I must admit I am a little confused. Those descriptions are hers, and mine. These are the things we have discussed many times over and over. I think the tech provided by the db will help me learn ways to not respond in the same ways and do some things differently. But for me this provides little insight into how to deal with her ea and her career desires.
OK, GW... hopefully I can help with a bit of clarity, although what ROMB and dbmod provided above are things that you will want to revisit...
Understand that bomb drops have usually been in the works for a while. So your W has probably been stewing about how, when, and whether to tell you that she's "done" for months if not years. And when there's an A (whether E(motional) or P(hysical)) as is in your case, you can probably be sure that this has been going on longer than you think or is MORE than you think.
You are past the "work on things" stage as your W has dropped the bomb. So your DBing efforts (the things to help "save" you and your M) need to be a little more reflective.
There is very little you can do about the OM, because what we find is that generally speaking, the spouse in an A will either deny it, downplay it, or go further underground with it. But your W will either believe your drove her to it, or she isn't actually doing anything wrong, since in her mind, your M is over...
The more you resist what SHE wants, the less effective you will be at DBing.
Many LBS in your situation find the best results are when the LBS works on themselves and becomes a better H, father, person... one only a fool would leave...
You sound like you have been working on yourself, but if you read your initial post, you might notice that most of this stuff is focused on your W.
The best sales technique is the take away.
If you become a fantastic guy, functioning in an independent way (not dating or anything, but just living single for the most part) your W WILL notice and may begin to question why she would leave such a great guy...
Does that make sense?
An important note from Kaffe,
"If you become a fantastic guy, functioning in an independent way (not dating or anything, but just living single for the most part) your W WILL notice and may begin to question why she would leave such a great guy..."
I've noticed, as a whole, this does seem to work often. (In different ways though but...) This can sometimes take a little time but as a whole it does seem to do something.
For me, I may not have won out on with my sitch but many others have. Check it out...
(Just a reminder, I haven't posted much in the last six years. Mostly a lurker. Just lookin' to put back all the good help I've gotten...)
Kaffe and Coyote, thanks.
Yes, that does make sense. I've gotten a sense of this in the last several days as I read through the forums, the site, and getting my way through DB.
Given the summer we just had I hate thinking that its been brewing for a long time. But I need to keep that in perspective because a long time is actually years that apparently those few months didn't have the affect I may have thought.
It is still crazy to me though that she knows I've been changing in the last couple of years, that I can look within, and most importantly, that I want to. She knows that I want to be the best husband, father, and person that I can be. We've discussed this during the few fights we've hand in the last couple of years. So given that, given the importance we place on our children, it hurts so much to see her unwilling to explore professional help. I cannot understand the willingness to put our children through the pain that is sure to come.
If a friend was about to make a huge mistake shouldn't she be called on it?
I should have an equal say in what happens with our children.
The craziness and unfairness is really tough for me to swallow.
Hi there,
Well, we finally had another talk last night about this situation. She seemed somewhat annoyed/angry that we haven't talked about it since last weekend. She asked me if I was trying to "wait her out" until she changed her mind. I told her it didn't have anything to do with her, that it had to do with me needing to work on myself. I've been at a place in my life for a couple of years now where I'm much more willing to look within myself to see where I need to make changes to make myself and our marriage happier. She is aware of this because of changes I've already made. And I told her about the counseling session I'll be having this morning. I told her that I've learned a lot about what it can be like (from MWD, DB) and that I really want to share some of what I've learned about that but I said I wasn't ready and didn't think she was either. She didn't really say anything but at least she was listening.
She is expecting me to help her plan how the kids get told and how she get out of here. I told her that we have two different goals for the oytcome of this and that I wasn't going to help do anything that I know will hurt the kids. She didn't get angry with me and then we talked about some of the upcoming plans we had already made including thanksgiving, she wants to go to her parents alone to tell them what's going on. I hate that we'd be doing the holidays apart, but at least I'll have the kids with me. I also hate that I won't be involved in the conversations she'll be having with various members of her family. I am close to them as well and wish I could let them know my goals to not end this marriage.
I realise it's been only a week, but it's so hard trying to be strong, and not yet seeing any sign of her changing her mind.
Good call to day with my DB coach. Glad I did it.
One sad note comes to mind. She said to make sure i have a couple of trustworthy confidants to be able to talk to. Unfortunately, my wife is one of the first ones that pops up when i think about a best friend that i can talk to. I have some good friends, but she's the best when comes to having someone to discuss the really important issues.
"If a friend was about to make a huge mistake shouldn't she be called on it?
I should have an equal say in what happens with our children.
The craziness and unfairness is really tough for me to swallow."
She is in her own world right now and not very rational. Working through her own issues at the moment. It will take some time. Not much you can do to explain things in this situation. Just be the best you can be for your kids, for yourself, and for her when she's ready.
By the bye, have you thought of having a good BBQue with friends and family? Works wonders! Good place for some ideas here is http:[edited by dbmod: non-db links are not allowed]
Thanks Coyote,
I hear you, been trying to keep that in perpective. It helps a ton having the reminder though. Thanks again.
And speaking of keeping perspective, the rest of yesterday was quite interesting. She asked me, since I had told her the night she dropped the bomb that I wanted the kids and would fight for them, would I get a lawyer if she filed papers right now. And she asked when I would start helping her with the transition if I didn't want the lawyers to get all our $. Wow, not ready for this conversation, and in thinking about my morning db session, it was screaming in my head to not engage in this conversation. Long long pause and I finally said I didn't know because I was trying not to look at that as an outcome. I told her I was focusing on myself and tyring get my head around why we are hear and how I played a part in getting here. Its hard to describe her reaction, but I could tell that she was listening so I pressed on. I told her that it was unfair for her to ask me to help in something that is the opposite of my own goals and I was very adamant in my tone (boundary setting?). Then I went back to discuss my working on myself, I told her about the things I have learned this week about therapy and how positive and forward thinking it can be. I told her I wouldn't ask her to go but that I am asking her to keep an open mind to learning about what I have this week and she nodded yes. I told her that because of her tone I could tell the time was not right for that but sometime later when she is ready. More nodding. I told her about some of my db session and specifically something I had come to an understanding on regarding one of the major issues she has with me. She thanked me for telling her. There were a couple of more topics regarding therapy and she was attentive through it all. I let her know that I thought we'd said enough for now and she replied she had to go anyway. I then also told her that I was reluctant to tell her many things right now because I think these are dangerous conversations. She said she understood. Now the zinger - the rest of the afternoon and evening she was so nice to me - more conversation (normal stuff) and pleasant tone. I had to leave town for a day or so and she gave me a hug on the way out the door. The first one she's initiated since the bomb. WTF! Is this the roller coaster or what? And then my 4 hr drive became a tense game of trying to convince myself to not have false hope, but really? I just can't believe she went from discussing papers and lawyers to giving me a hug. Stomach and back tied up in knots.
Almost normal just as hard.
So after monday's hug I've been out of town, got back last night. We had a fairly typical evening for us with our normal conversations. While it feels good good to have some more extended time together and talking, I realised it was only the first or second night that that we hadn't avoided each other around the house. It is so damn hard to act as if, when I just want to hold her tight, tell her how much I love her, ask her to change her mind, ask her to not take my kids away, take her up stairs and never spend another night on the couch. It seems so close yet a million miles away.
Sorry about the roller coaster ride Garwayne,
when an S goes up and down like this it can be difficult, to say the least! As I've seen, when dealing with an S when there're like this the best you can do at the moment is to try your best to stay on an even keel. Try not to react too much much when they all of a sudden they throw something off the wall. (Save that for when you're by yourself if needed
or just vent on this board...we can take it) Be yourself, listen to them, acknowledge W's feelings. However, If W starts taking unfair sniper shots at you let her know that's not on and move along.
At the moment, and I know this is not easy, but for now try to steer yourself away from doing things with the intention of 'just' trying to win W back. Save that for later, for now. Pick yourself back up. You already have a lot on your plate full in dealing with the anxiety and stress of the situation. You have to do good, healthy things for you that you know have worked for yourself before. Even try new things to get your mind off the Hampster that maybe running around in your head. An art class? Martial arts? Skydiving even? Use your imagination. (You might have to get a pen and paper out and make a list of these things, helps to get this stuff down on paper.)
What you are experiencing in this type of sitch is actually quite normal. I experienced it. Many others on this board have too. Guess what, often we feel alone and that perhaps there might even be something wrong with us. When an S is like this often they are on a journey and we're not invited. They have things to sort out and it has to run its course. Know that you are not responsible for W's part in this, only your own part. If you see something that you can do to make yourself a better fellow then try it. Even small changes can pan out later. (For myself, I know this sounds silly, but six years ago I resolved to make my bed every day. Didn't stop. Later, when I needed to make bigger changes I would look on this little thing and say, 'Hey, I stuck with that, I can do this now.')
If this helps, I'll relay a sitch from my own experience. After W wanted to separate, W decided she wanted to go out for dinner with me. While there, she said she would like to take a trip with me for a week to see her family and show that we were strong as a couple. She wanted to do this the very next week. I responded with, 'At the moment my work can't allow a week for me. Perhaps we can work on things for now and strenghten our relationship. That way we could show them a united front. In a couple months I'll be able to take a week or even two and then we can see them as a much better couple.' She stayed silent for a bit. Then, no less than 5 minutes later she said she wanted a D. Where'd that come from!?
I thought I was dealing with something unique but after seeing other people's sitche's, some good guidance, I found this was quite normal when an S is trying to discover themself. In my experience, you've got some good people here. Use us, we're easy. (Yes, keep talking to DB coaches too when needed. From what I've seen they're good. Lots of positive feedback. If they were not good I would relay that. Also, a friend that is mostly pro marriage but doesn't have a bone to pick with this n' that is a keeper too. Use your best judgement here.)
Some more suggestions for consideration,
1. As said, try writing things down on paper. It can help to get things off the mind and down on paper. Don't leave this for others to see it though. This is for yourself.
2. Get active. Exercise regularily. Helps stave off the bluesey stuff.
3. Get out and see good friends and family. Don't sit there like a blob and gaze at your navel. Take the kids, make it a fun outing!
4. Take some quiet time for yourself. Be creative here.
5. Tell the kids you love them and make a point of telling them this is not their fault.
Anybody else have suggestions here feel free to post them. I'm sure Garwayne wouldn't mind!
Coyote Boy
PS> Sorry, forgot I wasn't allowed to post a non DB link. Aka, a good BBqueing link for some viscious recipes! I understand though...My bad...
Thank you so much Coyote. I do need the outlet. I knew it would be a roller coaster, didn't realize it might be hourly sometimes. it's just crazy to feel like i'm on the sidelines but I like your advice and will continue to maintain. I have a suspicion I'll be reading your post over and over, thanks again.
Garwayne
No problem garwayne,
I know it's not easy feeling like you are on the sidelines. Not being able to get W to see reason and fix the situation with her.
Don't do that though. For now and in the near future, resist the urge to 'fix' W and see your point. Also, try to avoid the 'I love you's,' the 'R' talks and basically chasing after W. They can chase an S away when they are running like this. Happens like clockwork actually.
Let W initiate these talks. Otherwise, be pleasant and diplomatic. Be her friend even. Listen to her. If she has some good points to make certainly, take them to heart. However, If she drops another bomb or something off the wall, take it in stride. As above, vent somewhere else on this (here is a good place, or even a trusted friend or C.) If she starts getting unfair then please refer to my above post.
I know things are...well...crappy right now. But, a wise person told me just after my W gave me the bomb, 'this may not be easy but, at the moment you have to resist the urge in feeling sorry for yourself. Knuckle down. Things get better, especially if you get your a@$ back up and make it better. Be a smart about this, you're better than that!' (Sorry about the direct language but that is what I was told.) I've never stopped thanking that person to this day,
Coyote Boy
No problem on the direct language. It helps to hear it. Bootstraps, I hear ya, just have to keep reminding myself. Thank you again.
Not a problem!
I'm struggling a bit with the use of the forums.
My situation is essentially posted in this thread however I've been posting under MLC when I thought the readers/resposes of that group my have some specific insight into what appears to be my issues.
But I've also noticed that this form often has more viewing and more activity than that one. I think that my most recent post there on
kids might have good responses from this group as well.
Advice on either my post or my forum question is greatly appreciated.
For now, if I were you I would hang out here. From what I see your situation is still fresh. Later, as you get by the initial, 'what the?!' you can move on to see what's up with things and look at it in more detail. At the moment, you need to focus on the simple stuff and get them in order. One thing at a time, steady as it goes...
I've noticed that a us Vets who are looking to help do tend to spend some more time in the Newcomers section. More help seems to be needed here.
As a side issue, I've seen there are a number of us Vets here who have a lot experience with MLC issues, myself included.
Yes, I do see MLC patterns here but right now I wouldn't worry about dissecting that. Save that for when things are a little more settled.
Have you read Michelle's 'Divorce Busting' book? If not, start that now. It will give you good grounding on how to approach this whole thing, don't wait on this.
Next, you should read her 'Divorce Remedy.' It's basically a continuation of the previous. Later, when you're in a better place, certainly. Check out other material. No doubt, just make sure it's well recommended though. Not worth the waste of time and money if it's junk (bin' there...I've read 'a lot' over the last six years actually.)
Keep us posted.
Ah heck, my apologies, I just noticed right after I posted,
"I just got the DB book and will begin reading the other chapters during my wakeful moments tonight."
Keep reading. Make sure you go through it carefully. And on my front I shall endeavour to be more careful
.
Well we've had a pretty good week all in all. Other than not being able to share a bed or much in the way of her extending any affection. We've had some good conversations, avoiding any relationship or divorce talk.
Daily, hourly, coping is a drag. I'm trying, fairly unsuccessfully to focus on work and on the kids. It's just weird though when she is there constantly inside my head with a world of conversations and interactions whirling around my head like a hurricane.
The big cope was dreading yesterday through this Sunday. She is on trip for a conference, delivering goods from our business and also visiting friends, one of which has a son quarterbacking the state championship basketball game. So lots of fun in store for her and I supported her on doing this trip from the moment she mentioned it. The downside is that game is being played in the same town where her EA friend lives. Guts tied in knots but I know there's nothing I can do about it. I've also made the decision it's not a deal breaker. Too much time, too much of a future, and the love of my children having a family is way too important. Never-the-less, hard not to have my thoughts wander in that direction.
Here's another kicker. Wednesday evening while getting ready, I started thinking about the roads and such as we're having winter storms pretty much statewide. I made sure she had her AAA card and then early yesterday morning before she left I asked her if she would keep me updated on her progress to let me know road conditions, and that's she safe. She said of course. As I readied the kids for school and helped her load the car, the kids were asking for their 2nd and 3rd hugs and having some fun with that. Just before she left I couldn't hold back any longer and said I needed my second hug also (never got my first). She was smiling and said of course. As we embraced, she actually lead with her lips as if to give me a kiss. Since I was headed to her shoulder for the hug, i noticed it a second too late, but decided to just ignore it. The she says to me "Thank you for letting me do this" Odd in its own right because we never think of each other "letting" the other do something. So I said so, I said I'm not letting you do any thing. She said "Well I'm shirking my responsibilities" I'm thinking kids here, but these trips aren't rare and she knows how well we get along in her absence. But I responded with "you also have a responsibility to yourself" and she look away slightly and said "I know". I looked at her and said "you know I've always supported you on this stuff, and I always will" She said "I know" and we embraced again. She finished packing and on her way.
After dropping the kids off at school and heading back home (I work from my home office) I felt oddly quite good. But for some reason it didn't seem to be just our interaction but maybe just that she was gone for a while. I thought about it all day and am not really sure which it was, likely both.
It's still hard and i'm fluctuating hourly, but that whole entire interaction and my feelings is really strange. I want so much to hope something is changing, but I know she doesn't change her mind so easily. So taking something away from that is so hard when I'm scared to make assumptions.
Trying really hard not to think about her stay tonight. And I'll be glad when this weekend is over. Then/Now also stressing about our very first (20+ years) thanksgiving apart. That's a whole other post.
Not any comments on that episode? I was curious I guess if other's roller coasters include such love and affection? I could still feel a lot of love in that interaction.
She'll be back today from her trip. Will my magic marker picture of could happen come true? She's had time to think and decided she now wants to work on it. I know I shouldn't do this to myself, but I can't give up hope that she'll get over this craziness. But she'll come home and it will not be like that and it will be all I can do to not be devastated. Trying so hard to to have a PMA, to not dwell on the past, but it is so hard.
I'm guessing folks were off GALing so the board was pretty quiet last night. I wasn't... I was just wallowing in self-pity, so sorry no one gave some insight yet.
A few words of advice... Do not pin hope on her coming home and anything being different. You're still pretty new into this world, but if you want go back and look at other sitches. You'll find plenty of scenarios like yours, and they never come back having had an epiphany.
Second, stop reading into everything. I know you want to see little clues here and there, but it will drive you mad. We've all been there and have all done it, but the faster you can let go of that the easier this will become on you.
The she says to me "Thank you for letting me do this" Odd in its own right because we never think of each other "letting" the other do something.
You don't, but she does now. She thinks this way because her frame of reference is different. An ex-wife would appreciate her ex-husband letting her do something like this. It would be a nice gesture of cooperation from an ex. Shortly after dropping the bomb my W would ask if I would watch the kids and tell me she didn't want me to feel I was dumping the kids on me. I was confused? They're our kids (well, S is and SS and SD mean a lot to me). Now I realize she had already checked out and so she didn't want me to feel taken advantage of.
I'm assuming your reading DR. If not, do that. I also recommend How to Save Your Marriage Without Talking About It. Fair warning that it won't actually help you... you're too far down the road, but the insights are incredible. There are great insights for you as a man and what triggers reactions in you. There are also great insights into the mind of the WAW. Of what it takes, mentally, for a woman to get where you W is. And how, once there, it's so very difficult to come back.
I felt oddly quite good. But for some reason it didn't seem to be just our interaction but maybe just that she was gone for a while. I thought about it all day and am not really sure which it was, likely both.
I'd say more the second than the first. Your world is full of stress right now. The main source of that stress just left for a week. Of course you feel better.
I want so much to hope something is changing, but I know she doesn't change her mind so easily. So taking something away from that is so hard when I'm scared to make assumptions.
Listen to yourself... you're right, it's way too early for any changes. Do not expect anything this soon... IF anything changes it will be
months from now.
Understand a few basic premises... first, she has already left your R. She's not leaving, not contemplating, she's out the door at least in her head. You're working towards "if only I could get her to not decide to leave". This strategy will consume you and drive you crazy because you are working towards a non-existent goal.
Your goal has to be two-pronged. First and foremost you have to make changes in yourself that you want to make because this process has revealed things you don't like. For example, this process revealed to me that my temper has gotten short over the years and mostly at the children. I don't want this and so I'm changing it. It happens to also be something my W doesn't like, so it's a two-fer, but it's really for my relationship with my kids that I'm changing it. What is something your W doesn't like about you that you also don't like about you? Start there.
Second, you have to show her you don't need her. Doing this can theoretically make her wonder what she is missing and maybe consider coming back. But it also prepares you and strengthens you for being on your own.
Lastly... ease up on yourself. Your W is not a saint here nor blameless. She is the one proposing to leave, destroy the family unit, and take the coward's way out. Yes you have played a role, but that doesn't mean she isn't accountable too. I looked back at your sitch... realize your W is playing out her history. Her mom walked out when she was 11. How old is your oldest going to be? 11. Really? Maybe it's coincidence but I tend not to be a big believer in that.
Thank you WHG. You are absolutely right.
I am reading DB right now and will move on to DR next. It does help. Your desciprtion of the two pronged approach helps as well. I get the "change for yourself" themes that are rampant and at the core of the forums. I have actually been looking at a couple things in myself for quite some time. She's acknowledged this as well. I obviously have more that I need to look at. And I think I have/can be successful at showing her I don't need her. I found DB the second night after the bomb and just from the info on the site and a couple of forums, I started DBing on day 4, noticed immediate reactions that just reinforced the need to GAL. It's thinking about the pain my kids will face, and my anger at her doing this that can drag me down into despair, fortunately I think I've been successful keeping those emotions from her.
We had an interesting conversation last night after she got home. Among all the things we discussed she told me she felt like I was pushing her away. I told her I didn't understand because after the first couple of days I've not done anything like that, not about us, about counseling, etc. She said its like its passive/aggressive or something. I acknowledged that I'm giving her space and am focused on myself and on the kids. But, I said,I don't see what the aggressive part is? She didn't really have an answer here. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think this is a flag that she's noticing my DBing efforts and doesn't know how put my actions into perpective.
She did say she thinks I'm ignoring the situation and forcing herr to make all the decisions. I asked what and she said like figuring out how to tell the kids. I told her I wasn't prepared to tell them and given her desired time frame of leaving I don't understand her desire to tell them so quickly. She thinks they will know something is up and be even more angry and hurt by waiting. I agree she is re-playing history, which makes it that much more difficult to understand why she'd be willing to put her own kids through this, especially w/o seeking professional help.
I sure am tired of seeing 4 in the morning.
Gar... my W is doing the same thing on the kid front. She's been pushing to tell them soon after the new year. I could not figure out why, if we're not splitting until June timeframe, we would tell them months ahead of time. Why would we make them walk through the same fog I've been in?
But I've finally realized it's her anxiety. She admitted as much last night as we were eating dinner together that the anxiety of telling the kids is eating her up. I think she's sees telling the kids as ripping off a band-aid.
Thankfully last week she went to see an IC through my employer's Employee Assistance Program. While the appointment was largely a trainwreck for my M, the one thing of value is that the C was aghast at the idea of telling the kids months before any split. She wondered why a mom would want to torture her kids and put them in the middle of that sadness for so long. She advocated only telling them a few weeks to a month ahead of time. I had been advocating that we don't tell them until W knows where she will be living since that will be the very first question we get, and "I don't know but mom will figure it out" isn't a very good answer.
As far as being willing to do this without help... she made it through and survived right? Sure this who debacle is going on, but that's only because she married YOU, not because there are any fundamental issues on her part. She's fine and turned out ok, she just made a bad decision marrying you and you've been a bad egg.
And please realize the entire above paragraph is tongue-in-cheek, BUT it is to some degree how I think the WAW sees things. Only after months of this, probably seven deep talks, and seeing a C is my W finally owning her piece to a degree. Identifying that she has fundamental abandonment and personality issues that she needs to address to be mentally healthy.
It won't be enough to spare our M, but at least she's seeing she needs help.
" I am reading DB right now and will move on to DR next."
For now, stick to this. workinghardguy has some interesting sources, and I agree...
"I sure am tired of seeing 4 in the morning."
I see this one. Stick to the simple stuff (I actually didn't sleep for 4 -5 days after the bomb, it was nasty to say the least. )
Keep it simple for now. Make sure you take care of good nutrition,
1. Write things down, get it down on paper.
2. Find a trusted counsellor, either a DB coach or a recommended one that's been recommended by word of mouth. The DB coaches are good, I will give them that. However, a trusted friend or someone who is familiar with your sitch who doesn't have a bone to pick with marriage is good too. Those who are bitter about this can be a bummer. If whoever you're talking to has the, 'you should free. Easy as 1,2,3...' Well, move on politely.
3. Go for walks, exercise regularly.
4. Talk with family and friends. Just make sure if they indicate to you, 'we've been talking about this same thing for weeks/months,' time to switch or vent somewhere else for a bit.
5. This may be hard. If your S is often hitting you with a shifting target, aka, if you fix one thing and there are 'many' more that needs fixing, constantly,
Take care of what you can. Fix what you can for yourself. Don't loose yourself over what you can't fix. If some of it gets unreasonable...fine,
Start pointing yourself in a better direction.
Thanks guys. Good stuff.
WHG, sorry about also having the kid pressure. It totally [censored]. I got sucked into a few short fights today but I did manage to insert something that may stave that off for a while. Good advice from a DB coach. My wife said she thought i wasn't even thinking of the stuff we need to be working on and that included the kids. I of course told her it couldn't be further from the truth. But I also told how much of a bad idea I thought telling them would be and this is why. There are so many unknowns right now that we can't even address how are we possibly going to answer the questions that come from the kids if we tell them - where are we going, where are we going to live, when will this happen, where will we go to school, how often will we see papa, etc, etc. Ha Ha. Who was thinking about it now? She totally backed off and nodded. We'll see how long it lasts. I think she was doing it to somehow reinforce her decision and get her another step closer to her current goal.
Unfortunately things went south after that. I had mentioned that "I'll never know the pain that she went through when it happened to her and given that I can't understand why...nevermind" (you can see where that was headed and I didn't want to go there, I bolted.) We were in the car, and I recognized I shouldn't be going down that path and I got out went into the house. When she came in she confronted me and said it was that pain that has kept her from doing this sooner. But she's done punishing herself. And I responded so now you're going to punish the rest of us. Of course she stormed off.
A few minutes later and both a little more calm. I said look, I don't want those discussions, we need to get a long and i'm trying to do that. So we ended up all right but man it is too easy to get sucked in even when I feel like i'm trying so hard to avoid those kinds of conversations. She too admitted that she's confused and still trying to work some things out. And she says she doesn't want to dredge up old stuff but that is all she does. She says she has this anger towards me and it is all old stuff. The kicker is that the majority of the things she struggles with (not all, i've got some issues for sure) are due to her misinterpreting my comments for some negative intent. That she then stewed over for days before it became a huge issues. When all she had to do was to ask right then and there what I meant. I so think our issues are solvable. We've had such a good year, it almost seems to be grasping at straws to justify her decision. It's weird to say the least.
Coyote. Thanks so much, those are good ideas. Coping has not been fun. I did notice today though that the anger i felt from those arguments actually felt better. I got some real work done today at work. But your tips are spot on and I need to remind myself of them - hourly sometimes.
Thanks for the cudos garwayne, much appreciated.
I actually have to practice what I preach and go spend some 'me' time. Long day. For now,
"She says she has this anger towards me and it is all old stuff."
When an S is in the mid-years thing of 'finding themselves' their spouse is the first one to get the brunt of their anger. Unresolved stuff from earlier. Abandonment feelings from their younger years, sure. You will be blamed for this n' that, ya. Some of it will be unfair. Helps to understand this though so you don't go blaming yourself for 'everything' W says. Helps to put this in perspective.
"And I responded so now you're going to punish the rest of us. Of course she stormed off."
You back slid here. Oh well, learn and move on. However tempting, don't accuse W or point a finger at this and that for a good while. This type of discussion has to wait for when you're both in a better place. If she brings this type of thing up, listen, acknowledge her feelings on this and then carry on. Steady as she goes. Instead, steer towards things that need addressing, eg, kids, laundry, bills, etc. Vent elsewhere.
Try to understand that the ups and downs when dealing with this type of thing is par for the course. Certainly, things will get weird, probably even weirder. Brace yourself. I know it's not easy but try to be on an even keel when you interact with her. The steadiness can be disarming. Save the blowouts for later for when you're by yourself
Agreed, definite back slide. The moment I get engaged in such conversations the alarm bells start going off inside. I'm just not always successful keeping myself from getting sucked in. Good point about taking the blame for everything, this came up as well and started the "I don't like who I am either and that is why one reason I'm doing this and standing up for myself" speech.
Oh well trying not think about it as today is even tougher. Today she leaves for her parents for the next 4 days without me and the kids. It's time to drop the bomb on all of them. She's afraid of it being high drama (i'm sure both her mom and dad will give her the repeating history spiel). But this morning she says she thinks there's a chance it may not be so bad and they'll support her - in my head I was thinking "seriously? you must be kidding" but I didn't say anything. I just tried to be supportive and told her I wish I could be there for her. I told her she could call me if she needed to talk about it. I'm trying to be supportive, don't know if that's the right thing to do or not but at least it's the opposite of telling her she doesn't have to do this and she can change her mind. It just feels like another nail in our coffin though. The kids are off to school and she went to the gym. I sat and cried for while. Been a while since i did that so must have needed it. I just need to focus on making the thanksgiving break fun for the kids. (and myself)
When an S is in the mid-years thing of 'finding themselves' their spouse is the first one to get the brunt of their anger. Unresolved stuff from earlier. Abandonment feelings from their younger years, sure. You will be blamed for this n' that, ya. Some of it will be unfair. Helps to understand this though so you don't go blaming yourself for 'everything' W says. Helps to put this in perspective.
Listen to these words Wayne... I wish I'd realized this earlier on my sitch. I have not been the perfect H, BUT I've been good I think. Picking up Christmas gifts this morning I thought back to how my W has always been amazed at how good a gift giver I am. How I always seem to get just the right gift for her and the kids. Duh.. it's because I listen and remember.
Anyway, I digress... as my sitch has worn on I can see much of this about my W's problems. Deep-seated problems especially with abandonment and security. Some of my behaviors exacerbated those issues for her, but they didn't create them. My own 180s and self-improvement have been aimed at changing those behaviors that make it worse for her. But I'm not blind that unless she can get at those core issues we'll be back here again someday even if we do recon. So don't take this all on you.
But this morning she says she thinks there's a chance it may not be so bad and they'll support her - in my head I was thinking "seriously?
I'd prepare yourself for your W getting more support than you expect, perhaps even a lot more. Blood is thicker than everything and family does not want to rock the boat usually. They may even wonder in private, but to her they will be #1 fans. I had held out hope my W's family would be of value... no dice. I don't actually think my MIL wants this to happen or thinks it's a good idea, but the distance from that to actually taking a stand or saying something is a very, very long road.
Had a more of a think on this. As an add on to the above,
"And I responded so now you're going to punish the rest of us. Of course she stormed off."
She already knows much of this. At the moment though, she's not too concerned with implications. She's in a cycle of turmoil and the only thing she knows at the moment is to run.
Note here: Do NOT debate this type of thing with her for a 'very' good while (aka., the consequences of what she's doing.) Only when the two of you are in a 'much' better place can this type of thing be approached. And at that, only if she brings this up first. Keep your cool. (Another Note: If you backslide on stuff, most of us do from time to time, learn from it. Forgive yourself then move on and try not to do it again.)
Definitely, she will not like to hear that you are trying to dissect her thinking. W will see this as a form of manipulation. This is just for your own understanding and peace of mind.
Another way to say the above,
"If you feel this is what you need to do then I won't hold you back. When the two of us click and work together we really have something. Yes, I will miss this. However, I hope things go well for you. Naturally, if you want to talk my door is always open. But again, if this is what you feel you need to do then I won't hold you back."
Adjust as you see fit,
Coyote Lad
Oh, have to add another. A quote from workinghardguy,
"I'd prepare yourself for your W getting more support than you expect, perhaps even a lot more."
When a spouse is in 'run' mode they will tend to seek those that support their feelings of needing to...well...run. Some will say otherwise but a running S doesn't usually like this. They tend to gravitate to those who support their current line of thought, running. (Sigh) I know it can be frustrating.
Workinghardguy did touch on something important here. But what should be read here is try not to go on the war path on family and friends. This has the potential to start a blaming cycle of 'you did this' or 'you did that to ruin my marriage' oh ya. Save that energy for working on things you need to work on. Water off a duck's back so to speak...
Thank you guys so much. I know its true what you're telling me. When the clock seems to your biggest enemy it's tough sometimes (ok, a lot of the time) to keep all of that in perpective.
I practice the db stuff pretty effectively but notice that backslides can be small and easy to do. This is especially true when when the the conversation is good and the vibes seem right. And the results don't always speak for themselves. I guess hoping for something to sink in is a fools game.
I like the stuff about supporting her and have tried to do that. However, I even wonder about that because supporting her is something I've tried to do so this is not exactly a 180 for me. Though it might be given the situation, I have noticed that she seems surprised when I'm trying be nice. Such a mind game.
Anyway, partly into thanksgiving day without her and it hurts. I'm glad the kids are with me and we're headed to see some family. I'll try to focus on them.
Thanks for the support and Happy Thanksgiving.
Surprisingly, or not so surprisingly, I'm still learning from backslides after 6 years. The idea is to get them smaller, less frequent but most of all, learn from them.
If you make an oops, apologize. Make amends if needed. Discuss it even. Make a note of it then try not to repeat the same ones again. Then carry on. You'll get better with this as it goes along.
"I like the stuff about supporting her and have tried to do that. However, I even wonder about that because supporting her is something I've tried to do so this is not exactly a 180 for me..." But then you continue with, "I have noticed that she seems surprised when I'm trying be nice."
You answered yourself here. Try changes that are positive and you figure are worth it. Take note over a couple weeks. If it's no good, for both you and/or her, drop it. Try another. Remember, these changes are as much for yourself, or even more for yourself than they are for her.
Much like putting an oxygen mask on in an airplane that blows a window. You have to put yours on first before you can help another. Otherwise you'd be unconcious and of no help to anybody.
Note: Watch for small changes too, aka, " she seems surprised." They're usually more frequent than the big ones and can be just as telling. Just not as dramatic.
"I guess hoping for something to sink in is a fools game."
I understand your frustration but remember this, and you will hear it again, 'Lasting change takes time.'
This does not hurry itself overnight. This is a process of hitting smaller pieces one at a time. If you try to hurry things along, aka., 'you're my only one and you should drop this silliness right now...' it will definitely set things back. Again, if you make an oops, refer to the above.
"Such a mind game."
A lot of DBers misunderstand this at first. I did. Playing 'mind games' would imply you are trying to alter 'her' behaviour. Not so, you are trying to alter 'your' behaviour, for the better. Much like a dancer changing their step. The other changes there's to follow along.
Thanks, good comment about the mind game. And about the need for patience.
What I struggle with regarding db'ing is understanding what things actually constitute a backslide if the result isn't obvious, such as a fight or other obvious reaction. For example, I've avoided "I love you" but not entirely, and when she was leaving on this current trip that kind of talk led to a big embrace, she initiated it and I could feel her hugging not just going through the motions. So is all that pushing? I suppose avoiding that whole thing (not saying anything, not letting the hug happen) would be a 180 but when being in her arms is the absolute best place I can think of in the whole world it s really hard to not do it and not take comfort in it.
She comes home today, gone since the hug Wed afternoon. The last two days especially have been dreadful at best. I've had fun with the kids but having her in my head 24/7 is really getting hard and there is just no relief in sight. And I have to leave for three days starting this evening. We haven't talked at all sine a few minutes on 5hursday, a few text messages. And yesterday, late afternoon, when I hadn't heard from her since early on Friday, I was getting worried because she promised to keep me updated on her progress (lots of driving time and hours away) since she was supposed to be at her sister's I texted there and some activity there with the MIL, lead to a text from my W saying she was fine and would call me today. So, is that another backslide? No idea if the repercussions are negative. Is that a push or is she happy to know I was worried about her? I didn't try to contact her directly because I'm trying to give her space. I had hoped I could just have confirmation from the in-laws that she was fine w/o them contacting her but they didn't know either as it turns out. So again, did all that reult in a push or no big deal? I struggle constantly thinking about the whole thing.
And back today, my anxiety level high for much the same reason. I have no idea at all what to expect from her upon her return - another bomb or talk of R. I'm leaving and so there will be my approach to that also. I just struggle wondering how to be.
Struggle is putting it lightly. Our issues do not add up to divorce, I don't want one, I feel like I have no say, and I'm in a really bad place still with only a month (an eternity) under my belt.
"I've avoided "I love you" but not entirely, and when she was leaving on this current trip that kind of talk led to a big embrace, she initiated it and I could feel her hugging not just going through the motions. So is all that pushing?"
If she initiated the hug and it was genuine, that's not pushing. The idea behind the 'No I love yous' is not to drive them away with clingyness and pursuit. Clingyness/pursuit such as frequent calling/texting, always trying to hang on to a conversation/meeting with them when they say they gotta go. Another is asking them if, 'they've madeup their mind yet?!' or how about ' What are you doing right now?!' or 'Is there anything I can do to change your mind? Oh please oh please...' (Heck, I'd wanna get away from that, never mind a WAS who is in 'run' mode!)
If you've thrown in the odd ILY and it hasn't done anything bad, sure. However, I'd watch these. Space them out. At that, let her set the pace. (You did here so give yourself a Pat on the back!)
It's just that with these 'ILYs' to a WAS, they have an uncanny tendency to drive the WAS further into the tunnel they're already in. A good part of it is it reminds them of their inability to return it. Again, watch and take note. Use a good dose of common sense here. (See my post above if needed)
Sometimes, often even, we won't see anything for a while. As a rule of thumb use what works, even those changes that seem to work slowly or have a slow start. However, throw out those that have 'negative consequences' to either you and/or her, the situation even. The Last Resort technique in the DB book gives a good explanation on this. Check it out. (Adjust as you see fit.)
"And back today, my anxiety level high..."
Just something I noticed. Have you gone in for a physical checkup lately? When going through something like this it's very easy to let our physical wellness slide. Talk to your family doctor about your situation, the anxiety, any 'odd' things going on with your body. In the early stages of my sitch, I actually had to go on mild levels of anti depressants for a bit. It certainly helped. Also found out my sitch had helped me develop some high blood pressure, argh!
Our bodies take a beating when going through something like this. You've probably heard this before, may even be doing this but I will say it anyway, make sure you're eating right, exercising, taking me time, getting enough sleep (I know, the sleep thing can be hard with this kind of thing at times, often even!)
Hi guys,
Over a month. Must be some kind of hurtle. More than anything I'm angry. And I have to say, it feels a whole lot better. I've been db'ing as best I can though not perfectly and there have been some backslides into R and why talks but im getting better. What's most interesting though is that it actually feels better to be angry than all the anxiety and pain. I'm being nice, enjoying the kids and trying to look forward. I'm strongly considering the mwd intensives but not sure I can get her to go but ill try soon when the timing is right. In one of my backslides I had to tell her to stop treating me like you know what, especially in front of the kids. It seems to have worked because she's been pretty nice to me the last day or so. (Turns out that's hard to - just want to hold her) . For now, I'm holding on to a little anger, db'ing, holding out some hope for getting her to a meeting. Thanks everyone.
No problem Garwayne
"More than anything I'm angry. And I have to say, it feels a whole lot better."
I like this. Sounds like you're getting better. No, you are getting better.
Getting angry about the situation is 'much' better than hopelessness, despair, listlessness, and even fear, go figure. Anger can be good if directed where it needs to go. Just a note here, make sure you don't direct the anger in the wrong place. Don't direct it at W, good friends, and family. You'll be pickin' up pieces for a while if you do! (I did this a couple of times with some close people in the beginning, and even after that. Had to learn penitence and groveling after that. Not a nice skill to learn :()
It's ok to get angry at the situation. Get angry about junk you've been needing to fix about yourself. It's even ok to get angry about W's attitude. Just don't vent on her though. Again, vent elsewhere. (Sure, let her know when she's crossing a line with you. After that, snip it.)
" I've been db'ing as best I can though not perfectly and there have been some backslides"
(Sigh) I know for myself it ended up being a process of 3 steps forward, 2 steps back but I eventually made it up the mountain.
"I'm strongly considering the mwd intensives but not sure I can get her to go but ill try soon when the timing is right."
Present it to her. If she doesn't want to go let her be. Don't even try to convince or cajole her. She has sorting out to do and it will take a while before things are smooth. Just make sure you keep working on making yourself a pinnacle of stability, strength, and just a simply a soft place for her to land on. This will eventually be irresistible for her. Probably about a year or two at least before you can even begin to be in the clear though.
"In one of my backslides I had to tell her to stop treating me like you know what, especially in front of the kids. "
This is a backslide?! I don't think so.
"It seems to have worked because she's been pretty nice to me the last day or so."
One of the reactions to your changes? I would think so. Did you take note of what you did? What spurred this on? Write it out on paper or a word editor if you have to. Sounds clinical but it helps to get it off the mind and on to something where you can see it.
"just want to hold her"
Hang tight.
Weird days when we're getting along ok. Hard to hold any anger, but unfortunately it's replaced with something not so good. She woke up sick today, flu or something. I just wanted to make her feel better. Some kid activities and some things I needed to do, but I made sure she had what she needed and I kept the kids out of her hair. Now in thinking about my day, here's the dilemma in my mind. I've read the post recommended by Virginia and MWD about the guy always being her friend, even helping her to move out. I'm like that I think. But I also wonder about her having the best of both worlds. Her moving on and doing whatever she wants, yet I'm able to take care of her, the kids whatever is needed, without a worry from her. Not like I'd ignore her if she was sick, but maybe I don't need to be so nice? This morning while still in bed, she thanked me, this evening she didn't seem so appreciative, hard to read results of my efforts when she's also sick. I was careful not to hover, but a couple of times when she was obviously in distress I offered up some help, and also before returning home I TM'd her asking if she needed anything. Generally, I'd like to think this all makes her think twice about getting rid of me, but maybe not?
Generally, I'd like to think this all makes her think twice about getting rid of me, but maybe not?
Sorry Wayne... a couple text messages and some chicken soup aren't going to cure this
How would you treat a co-worker or a roommate? Follow that line of thinking. If my roommate was sick I might ask them once if they need me to get anything, but they're not in a coma... they can ask me to get stuff too, right? And if I'm making supper or something for myself or myself and the kids I may offer to heat up some soup. I'd offer because I'm not a heartless jerk.
I know it's hard... I'm in the same boat. The other day W and I were talking about what she would leave behind at the house. I told her to take the old TV (which isn't really that old, just heavy) and she said she wouldn't have anyone to carry it. Then she lamented who is going to help her move? She doesn't have a lot of friends... which is odd because she has TONS of friends, but she doesn't have tons of real friends who would come into a tough spot like helping you move out of your house and away from your H who loves you. I get that. And then she said "I'm assuming you're not going to help me move"... and for a split second I almost said I would help. Then caught myself. Said, "nope... I'm not getting in your way but you're crazy if you think I'm helping you move" and I walked away.
So it is so easy to fall into that trap. So easy to be the friend, the supporter... keep remembering that most of this is counter-intuitive. But that one small setback doesn't blow up the bridge either...
"...Hard to hold any anger, but unfortunately it's replaced with something not so good."
You can get angry about the situation. You can get angry about taxes. You can even get a little cheesed off at W's attitude if it crosses a line. But with W is in this...'stuff' don't point your anger at her, you'll be sorry if you do. Redirect it elsewhere. Find another healthy outlet. (For me I get on my eliptical machine and give er'. If something's cheesin' me off I growl about it while huffin', puffin', and swearin'. In the birthday suit even if it's bad.)
"She woke up sick today, flu or something. I just wanted to make her feel better. Some kid activities and some things I needed to do, but I made sure she had what she needed and I kept the kids out of her hair."
Awesome, nothing wrong with this.
"Her moving on and doing whatever she wants, yet I'm able to take care of her, the kids whatever is needed, without a worry from her. Not like I'd ignore her if she was sick, but maybe I don't need to be so nice?"
Ah, we get to the point. Yes, try to be nice when you can. I know, I know, it doesn't feel natural. This is not an easy one. The natural thing would be to blast away, no holds barred and to let her have it! A part of her might even be expecting this. Resist, blow elsewhere or again, you'll be sorry if you give in...
What a turn around for W, when, after treating you like crap you treat her with respect and dignity. This, gets a WAS thinkin'. Down the road, if not already, she'll be thinking of this. You being a soft place for her to land on when everything else was falling apart. Remember this. Helps prop up your own dignity and self respect too. Helps knowing you've done pretty much the best you can.
"she thanked me, this evening she didn't seem so appreciative, hard to read results of my efforts when she's also sick."
Most of the time you don't see this until later. At that, mostly in very little things here and there. Get yourself a beer or whatever instead for now. Low and slow.
"What a turn around for W, when, after treating you like crap you treat her with respect and dignity. This, gets a WAS thinkin'. Down the road, if not already, she'll be thinking of this."
This thought has crossed my mind many times. I think this is taking the high road. It is tough to think about though relative to doing 180's. I'm normally treating her this way so she prob expects it. But not nec when she's treating me poorly. I just need to keep in I'm mind and do my best, knowing to avoid lingering or too much of a push.
I write today after an absence that coincides with her being gone for 6 days and returning this evening. Had a backslide on the phone with her on Thursday about mail and how she doesn't need to hide things from me, the details don't matter much, just know it was a conversation I didn't need to have. Learning. Friday was average and not much response to questions I had but not silence either. So Saturday i essentially ignore her and by Sunday mid day received a text asking how things were, I answered but short, she replied back and I left it at that. Monday morning, a Good Morning text. Did the same and today she let's me know when she's boarding the plane. It's very strange but it works. I have no idea what to expect for the evening, hoping for good things but planning on the status quo, just need the strength to keep db'ing.
Had a backslide on the phone with her on Thursday about mail and how she doesn't need to hide things from me
Isn't it funny how they still hide stuff? What should it matter? It's out there in the open... yet some part of them still has this need to hide. I've wondered if it's fear, security, shame, regret or some mix of this that drives it.
A few weeks ago my W blew up at me b/c she thought I was snooping on her smoking in the garage. She told me then that she has nothing to hide and I can ask anything and she'll tell me the truth. Yet I know she hasn't told me the truth on a number of things... I found myself wanting to call her today to test that statement of hers... and then decided why bother. It will only anger her, hurt me, and push her further away. Just let life run its course, what's meant to be will be.
Exactly, that is interesting. It's as if they're fooling themselves just as much. I'm experiencing the same thing, her acting as if she being straight up with everything, including the OM, yet not telling everthing about that to her family and hiding the calls from me. I'm sure she has plenty of justifications for it all at this point. So I'm trying (not successfully, given my backslide) to ignore and focus on the positives.
And on that note, after getting home, there's been some kid stuff and we're both in pretty good spirits. At one point after they were all in bed she was telling me something about her trip and she looked/sounded so good that I got up and gave her a hug. She didn't hesitate and we had a conversation while embraced. At one point we seperated but still held hands. Then another hug with more discussion. I'm trying to be careful with doing this and so far so good. I don't know if I should be, but I take some hope from these things.
"I'm trying to be careful with doing this and so far so good. I don't know if I should be, but I take some hope from these things."
If it worked out ok I can't see why not. The rule of thumb here is to let her set the pace for this but the 'odd' time, sometimes you can test the water just a 'little' bit. Space this out though. Watch and take note. Don't want to seem clingy to her. If she gets cold or distant, back off gracefully. Baby steps, baby steps.
What's the perfect Christmas gift for a WAW? Something respectful of her current search yet meaningful and loving?
Gifts? Has she expressed anything? I'm in the same boat and I know this is tough.
My W has told me what she wanted and I did get it and she even asked me what I wanted/needed. Weird?!? But hey it's a positive.
Listen to her and see what she says.
Yeah, I hear ya. Took care of that one already, she's never been shy about telling me what she wants. I've always been pretty good at also finding something something meaningful that surprises her. But this year I'm at a loss so far on that one.
W and I agreed on presents and not to do more. As it turns out her favorite travel mug broke a month ago. I was buying a new one for myself and buying two got me free shipping which was the same price as one with shipping. So now I have a second and don't need two. I've been debating whether to give it to my w or my assistant..
Ah yes, another bomb. She's going to a Christmas party out of town by herself overnight at friend's house I've never met. While I get it's her life and I don't want to control her. This sure isn't like her. Just another twist of the knife.
Let it lie stillhopin (almost said garwayne)
Believe nothing what you hear and half of what you see. Sure, it's another bomb. Water off a duck's back. You gotta roll with it. It's usually not the bomb we make it to be. Don't let your mind run off on a tangent. Give yourself a break here.
I said this to another but you need to hear this also,
'Be pleasant. Be understanding. Be easy with forgiveness where appropriate. Give the space she needs when asked for. If you get a feel she doesn't want to be around you excuse yourself with no fanfare. Go do your own thing with no muss or fuss. Be a soft place for her to land on. If things get a little tense, excuse yourself politely and go do your own thing for a bit. Go play some pool with a few buddies or something like that. (Sure, ok, if W does get out of sorts and unfair, 'you can be much better when you're not like this to me. Let's come back to this later once we've cooled down, good with you?)'
As a side note, are you writing this down in a journal? Seeing it for what it is on print and working out possible solutions? Step by step even? Get it down where you can see it so it doesn't race around the mind so much. Helps one to be more objective.
Thanks much. Yes those are good. Not sure How I missed this but thanks, I do need to get better at doing just what you suggest. This is the certainly what struggle with the most - finding my own thing to do and not dwelling on what she's doing.
Now for an update. Conversation after Christmas eve dinner went something like this.
From her, we're too smart and too good of parents for it to hurt our kids too badly. I replied, I think that if we're that smart and good then we'd be able to figure out how to move forward together with us both being there as parents to our kids. She said, "if we got back together, how would you see it working"
I told her i really don't know, I can't promise I'll never say anything that wont hurt her feelings, or have another argument that doesn't go anywhere, but I know that I don't want those things, that I don't want to repeat the same mistakes, that i want her to be happy, me to be happy and for us to be there together for our kids" The conversation went on to her reluctance to therapy and other issues but that portion I just mentioned was paused only by her crying in my arms.
Sunday and Monday, more of the cold shoulder and discussions on need to know basis only. The roller coaster commences.
Thoughts?
I'm really curious if anyone thinks that comment is any sort of breakthrough moment or do I add this to the list of believe nothing.
Meanwhile tomorrow she leaves for an interview I think which happens to be in a town 5 hours away. She didn't tell me that but given some comments and recent visits there I'm pretty confident that's what's going on. I told her "I don't know what you're doing tomorrow but whatever it is, good luck". She said thanks and put her head on my chin.
Just can't figure out how her desire to make these changes in her life outweighs the hurt our kids are going to go through.
Thanks much. Yes those are good. Not sure How I missed this but thanks, I do need to get better at doing just what you suggest. This is the certainly what struggle with the most - finding my own thing to do and not dwelling on what she's doing.
DO THAT^^^ MORE...
Now for an update. Conversation after Christmas eve dinner went something like this.
From her, we're too smart and too good of parents for it to hurt our kids too badly. I replied, I think that if we're that smart and good then we'd be able to figure out how to move forward together with us both being there as parents to our kids. She said, "if we got back together, how would you see it working"
wow...
this was your chance to show her the NEW YOU and that marriage to you now and from this day forward
would be different and better...
if you cannot give ANY specifics as to how YOU have changed and how YOU would handle things differently
why would she stay?
Sorry but I think you missed a real opportunity. Seems to me when SHE asked how things would be different, you said
"Oh who knows? Maybe I'll be better but I might not, and I hope you can handle it when I hurt you again."
I told her i really don't know, I can't promise I'll never say anything that wont hurt her feelings, or have another argument that doesn't go anywhere, but I know that I don't want those things, that I don't want to repeat the same mistakes, that i want her to be happy, me to be happy and for us to be there together for our kids"
how about saying "If I had it all to do again, there are A LOT of things I'd do differently....such as"--and then list 3!
what happened to your 180s and the new you? What changes are you making that you can discuss with her?
The conversation went on to her reluctance to therapy and other issues but that portion I just mentioned was paused only by her crying in my arms.
Sunday and Monday, more of the cold shoulder and discussions on need to know basis only. The roller coaster commences.
Thoughts?
you have my thoughts.
I hear mostly anger from you and very little insight into what YOU ought to do more of or less of.
Can you share some of those?
how would life be better or different from before?
Aren't you curious? I mean, why won't she want out again, if you are the same man as before?
think it out in some detail.
She needs and wants & is asking for reassurance from you that YOU can change and therefore the marriage can...
Give that to her.
also see if she's up for attending Retrovaille.
It's a retreat for marriages in crisis.
It's more "efficient" time wise than mc and we found that some marriage counselors rehash the past a lot. Retrovaille won't rehash. It's solution based and helps you stay in the present...
It's very helpful and you don't HAVE to share publicly...
there are couples there who have worked out serious problems that will make yours pale in comparison (like having an affair AND a child die) and they wanted out of their m's...
and yet they have made it to the other side. They're excellent guides...
good luck!
Interesting week over Christmas and new years. Without all the details suffice it to say i had some successes, had some backslides and learned a lot. The roller coaster is absolutely crazy. From F you's the first part of the day, arguing about who is in a better position to be the primary caregiver to our kids, etc, to then reminding me to buy the tickets for our upcoming trip together. That was all yesterday to a pretty normal friendly day to day. Feeling good about myself one moment to anxiety attacks the next.
I get the list of 37, I do. But my kids, avoiding if possible them getting hurt, that is my framework. My backslides are both lack of understanding - not talking to family means about anything!, not just trying to avoid her side and intimate details. My efforts of thinking those conversations were helping me and showing her I could avoid her details was apparently impossible. Ok lesson learned. They are also about weakness - discussing the relationship, applying logic, trying to understand and cajole. I know, I know.
Happened to see something she was working on, a business plan, her leaving, she's defining what success for herself looks like. It's far away with my kids without me. Realized her focus is her future. She's made the decision, she has the power. I've been told time and time again I need to do the same thing, focus on my self, find a way to move forward.
I've been saying that to myself for two months. Still don't know what it means. I'm a husband and a father. I like it. It defines me. Back to my framework. My goal is to not have my kids get hurt. Within that framework, what does moving forward look like? What does focusing on me look like? How do I detach? How can read every possible definition of the word aloof and still not know how to do it? I love my kids.
I'm struggling trying to find the answers.
I've been saying that to myself for two months. Still don't know what it means. I'm a husband and a father. I like it. It defines me. Back to my framework. My goal is to not have my kids get hurt. Within that framework, what does moving forward look like? What does focusing on me look like? How do I detach? How can read every possible definition of the word aloof and still not know how to do it? I love my kids.
Change 'husband and father' to 'wife and mother' and you have my thoughts written down exactly. I know people say that my H does not determine my happiness, but he's a big part of my definition of happiness- he has given me a wonderful home and 2 beautiful kids. Those life experiences define me, and they have exposed me to what makes me happy.
My H stil lives in our home because of finances. Detaching is super hard when I have to see him and talk to him daily. Not sure if this helps you, but what I have started to do is to make sure that I look busy when I know he's going to see me. I'll have my laptop out and be clicking/typing away and not even give him a glance when he comes in the room (not normal for me because I think it's rude to ignore someone) I've also started to make sure that I'm not in the house when he gets here... it's silly, but I've even waited down the street until his truck passes just so I can come home after him- he's usually surprised and asks where I've been (of course I don't answer him so I can stay aloof)
Sorry, I don't have the answers you're looking for... if I find it, I WILL share my wisdom (as long as you do the same for me too.) The things that have worked for me best are to post a lot- and someone usually has some insight that inspires me, and read the posts of people that have done this for a while- their sitchs usually address similar issues.
Until we find a solution like a magic 'detachment pill'... I'll save you a seat on this roller coaster. I'd really like to know when I can get off!!
Oh purgatory, thank you. Agreed, the detachment pill - where can I get one. I'll keep looking as well.
We live together as well, trying to keep our kids from knowing for now, apparently till I come around and she has more answers. My number one pain point is them. Just cant get my head around telling them.
I'm trying to do much of what you're doing as well. It is very hard. And when she's being nice the desire to talk about things is very great. I've been successful the last couple of days, but we also had the big blow up on Tues. Amazing how the roller coaster is hours and minutes and days and months. The emotion coaster in hours is crazy. So while that's going on trying to detach and look indifferent is a battle. The the coaster between us is odd too. Since the bomb we've had genuine hugs, even a kiss or two. But also plenty of negative interactions as well.
I wish I had more wisdom to share as well. I don't think I'm doing as well as I could be. I see the success in the DB things, but like the last couple of days when she's being nice, opening up conversations, it's hard not to reply. I'm a talker anyway, so I'm trying to not do that so much, but when the kids are around (every morning, every evening) it's difficult not to be engaged in the conversation.
Do you journal your conversations? I've been trying to do that. I don't really go review them, but there does seem to be something therapeutic about doing so. I've also done some coaching lessons with Laurie and they have been extremely helpful. I'm trying to spread them out though and not use them for coping, but rather advice on dealing with situations. The crazy thing is that even though they have been really good, it's tough to look back and be able to pinpoint all my successes with my W. Everything is a blur. More later.
Ok, while still struggling with figuring out dbing within my kid framework let me through another one out there for some help (though any help with kids would help also). Here's my next hurtle.
We're leaving for 5 days on trip (flying), just the two of us. It has to both with business and pleasure and has been the works since before she dropped the bomb. Throughout everything she hasn't wavered on me going. This has been surprising especially the day she reminded me to buy the tickets was just hours after one our worst fights to date. I feel like this is another opportunity for me to do some real DBing, but I don't have my head wrapped around it yet. How to act, be, etc. One thing I did do was set up a little side trip for me and a buddy on one of the free days we have. It came up yesterday when she mentioned some stuff we'll have to do that day. I said I think it won't take too long because I'm going to the coast with my friend (we'll also be staying with him some of those days). She seemed a bit dejected. I don't know if I should have ignored that or not but I didn't. I said I figured she had already made plans with her friends in the area. She said she hadn't but figured she could. I didn't ask her to go with us and she didn't ask if she could. So I think that is all pretty good. Just not sure how to be on this trip during our time together.
I don't know sometimes how to just ignore the feelings that make me want to scream. I just cannot believe that she can justify hurting the kids to any extent because of what she feels she needs to do. It's overwhelming and I can't get it out of my head.
I could sure use some advice for dealing with this upcoming trip together. It feels like our close proximity for several days provides a fine line between an opportunity for success or risk of failure when itcomes to DBing.
My advice would be keep DB and do your thing. If you want, you could ask her to go, but don't act like a couple. Act more like friends. No pursuing!!!
When my H and I go out with our D, we act more like friends instead of a couple. And I have noticed by me doing this, he is walking towards me instead of away from me.
Go and have fun!
Yesterday was fairly succesful I think. Discovered our event is black tie, so we rented me a tux and went dress shopping for her. This has always bben fun for us with me encouraging things that she wouldn't pick out only to find she really likes it. Yesterday was no different. Good times driving around the valley, having lunch, etc. There is a lot of good feelings here for us from days gone by. By evening she was pulling away, she went to see an old friend and I stayed. Some small talk when she returned but I kept my distance and stayed on the couch in another room (staying with a friend). It was a great day, which has me feeling down a bit about the whole thing once again. I hope I'm as successful today as I was yesterday.
stillhopin,
I posted to the other thread you started in MLC.
Listen, 25 is giving you amazing advice, and for the most part you seem to skim and ignore her posts to you.
Your anger is palatable. If we can feel it here, how do you think your W feels?
Frankly ... there is no justification or rationalization that is going to satisfy you. How and why can she make decisions that are going to hurt your kids etc...
Simply, because she is an adult with the right to do so. Stop trying to figure out how she has rationalized it and start working on seeing/figuring out your part in what got you guys here ... THAT is the gift of the situation. You aren't helpless here, there are mistakes you made that you can learn from. The trick is though, you have to learn from them because YOU believe they were mistakes and you want to be a better person for YOU, not because it's only a tactic to bring her back.
You can not protect your children from all the hurt this world is going to throw at them. Nor should you. If you shelter them from pain their whole lives they won't learn the skills and strength to cope with disappointments and hurt later on. Don't get me wrong ... I'm a mom with claws like a polar bear when my cubs are threatened (you can see it in my own threads!) ... so I fully understand your WANTING to fix this for them. I tried too. When I finally let go of trying to manipulate my now ex into staying, out of guilt about what it would do to our kids, I was scared. But I knew my job was to teach them strength, and that sometimes life throws curveballs and that sometimes life hurts, but that we are going to be ok. This is not the end of the world ... sorry, I know that's not a popular sentiment in these parts, but it just isn't. It's different, and not what was planned ... but they will handle it based on the example that is set for them. My kids are thriving. We talk openly about their feelings and missing each other and how it's different. Conflict and anger and poison environments are far more damaging.
Redefine success. Detach. Lose the codependant streak (you seriously referred to her going to an xmas party without as a "bomb") - there is a great book out there, you'll find it if you google it.
Peace
PEI
"when she's being nice, opening up conversations, it's hard not to reply."
"Some small talk when she returned but I kept my distance"
I don't get why you're doing this. You know this isn't DBing. If you keep distancing yourself, your W will stop talking to you because she'll feel you're distant.
The point of detaching from your W isn't to shut her out. It's to emotionally disengage from the drama your W is currently in. You don't overly throw yourself into everything she says. You keep things friendly. If she is actively coming towards you, increase the positive interaction. If she backs off, then you back off.
Hi guys,
I have to admit, I'm really really confused. I've read DB, and am half way through DR. I feel like I'm doing everything pretty good. I wonder if I'm just not usung the forum the right way, or if I'm not expressing myself very well or if I really don't get it at all. Whatever the case, I really want to improve and learn what I need to do.
I have been talking every other week to a db coach and though I'm certainly not perfect I'm doing pretty well implementing her advice.
My discussion of anger on the forum is just that. I do not show my w any anger. I thought that the forum was a place to vent for just that reason. I read all kinds of venting in many of the posts.
Knowing you need to detach and doing it are not the same thing. Detaching seems to be a result of doing other things which I apparently have yet to master, because I do not know how to 'detach' even as much as I tell myself everyday to do just that.
Relative to the kids. I know that I cannot save them from every hurt that is coming their way. Not sure the point of this. Does that mean I shouldn't try? it's my opinion that I'm letting them down if I don't give it my all, which I believe DBing is a part of.
So, please, any advice on what I'm missing here would be greatly appreciated.
Then one more item i'd like advice on. She just told me a little while ago that when we get back she wants me to move out. What am I supposed to do here? Just leave my kids because she wants me to? I'm stumped on this one.
"Knowing you need to detach and doing it are not the same thing."
No one said it was the same thing. Just do it.
Venting your anger and frustrations here is the right thing. Please do that.
One thing that members here will do though, is help support you in working on those negative emotions. Understand that is a good thing, for you.
Venting negative emotion is not healing. It is simply venting pressure, but often the negative emotion remains.
Healing takes time and effort and this board can help you with that so it doesn't spill out into your sitch or real life.
What, precisely, are you confused about?
Then one more item i'd like advice on. She just told me a little while ago that when we get back she wants me to move out. What am I supposed to do here? Just leave my kids because she wants me to? I'm stumped on this one.
Why would you leave the house? You don't want the divorce, she does ... she wants out, she should go IMO.
PEI
My thoughts exactly. This is her deal, and my focus is the kids. I'm getting better almost weekly at GAL, and getting them in that mix as well. I'll continue doing my best.
So we have been doing the sleeping arrangements with her in our bedroom and me on the couch. Not exclusively, there has been a week with it opposite, but mostly me on the couch. For the most part I really don't mind, but i'm curious what other's think about this. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't be more like, "the heck with her, she wants this, she can have the couch", but I don't know how well that would help DB'ing efforts.
Move back into the bed. She feels uncomfortable it's not your fault. Reclaim yourself and your life.
We did the same thing. One night I just went into my bed and she freaked out and move into the living room and has been there for months. unfortunatetly she she stills uses our master bathroom but I am ok with that.
I guess I didn't update much about our trip last weekend. As I had hoped it started off very well. We were back in our element, in a place that holds a lot of good emotions for us. The first two days we had a lot of fun, almost like old times but obviously not quite. By mid day on Sat I could sense the pulling away, so i did the same as best i could. We already arranged dinner with friends but other than that i kept my distance as best i could given we're at the same event together and sharing an expensive hotel room. I had planned to leave with a friend for all of sunday, but she took off and walked the city on her own in the morning, killing a couple of hours and essentially sabotaging the day, as there was some work that needed to be done before i could go. That night, dinner and staying with friends before flying out on monday. That the real pull away saying she wished i'd move out when we got home. I essentially ignored that. I let her vent and a bunch of old stuff from the holidays, stuff we'd already talked about came up again. Nothing much I could say but the same apologies as before again. On the way to the airport, I kind of went off with standing up for myself to the inaccurate accusations on things she thinks i'm doing but i'm not. I'm trying to be as honest as possible, but i guess she'll believe what she wants to believe.
So fast forward to today, i've been trying to be dark, grey I guess since we're both focusing on the kids. But there's been no "good night's" or "good mornings". I'm responding when she talks, in kind but not initiating as best i can.
Yesterday as I went downstairs she was laying on the couch crying, i pretended not to notice, left my cup in the sink and went back to my office.
I've been to the doctor twice this week, physical and tests, and she's been quite nosy about that. I'm cleaning the snow off the car and she's asking me where i'm going. I don't ask her, bizarre she doesn't see the coincidence.
I think i'm doing the right things we'll see how the rest of the week goes.
So far feeling pretty good about myself this week. First time in a long time. Some meds and real sleep sure do make a difference. I'm trying to be happy all the time i'm in her presence and around the kids of course. She on the other hand is pretty short and even mean, when no one is watching that is. So trying to stay away when there's no one around, and just be happy and myself when there are others. It does get old though having her attitude and be short with me when asking the simplest of questions. Not sure how much of that i can take.
Arghh. Total backslide and totally let myself get sucked in. She says i'm not doing anything because we haven't sat down to talk about how we're going to split up our stuff. I tried telling her that i'm just not there yet and if that is a big issue for her that she can either just plan on having it, or make a list. I told her i'm just not focused on that, that i'm in a different place in this process than she is, and that i'm still focused on trying to figure out how we're going to tell and/or deal with the kids. She takes shots at me and I let it get me angry. Things escalate, and we ended up yelling at each other in the bathroom and her feeling like i'm not giving her space, yelling at me to leave her alone. I should have left minutes earlier. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. I guess it wouldn't be so hard if we just turn back the clock. If i'm moving along trying to DB, and focus on myself and be happy, the more frustrated she gets because she feels like nothing is happening. Each day she seems to snub me or be short with me, worse and worse and then we have one of these conversations. So I'm not understanding how to talk without talking about what she wants to talk about and when we do how do I avoid getting sucked in. It's so difficult.
how to talk without talking...couple suggestions
if she is pushing for a decision and you have no lawyer, you say "I'm not ready to address all the details but I AM moving forward in my plans for a fulfilling life so don't worry that I'm stuck, b/c I'm not."
If she revises old stuff and it's NOT accurate, you can say
"Wow, w, I don't recall it that way but I"m sorry you were upset/hurt"...
this ^^ does not escalate and shows that you are open to her perception being accurate but for now, you just don't see it that way.
IF she brings up stuff that Is justified or where you screwed up, even if you have apologized before, say
"Well w, if I had it to do all over again, there's lots of things I'd do differently."
that also does not escalate and it shows your awareness of your need to change
but you're not being a doormat either. IF she continues on, you say, "I feel like I've said all I can say about the past. Now I'm focusing on my future and becoming the man I always wanted to become..."
and leave the area...Do NOT engage in more talk unless she is opening up.
Then gather data and validate, making good full eye contact and really listening to her...
but "decide" nothing you don't want to decide.
If she gets frustrated again, you remind her that you are "not standing in her way"...you're just doing YOUR thing to create a more fulfilling life for YOU and yours....
that is your job, after all. Would she really prefer you fall apart pining for her? You accept her choice (the more you challenge it, the more she'll defend it)
but you accept it in a way that shows regret--for your part in the past--and for her loss in the future.
B/c when you become a man only a fool would leave-
the man she always wanted you to become-
and she leaves anyhow...then she is a fool and it's her loss.
You don't "say" this...you radiate it. To do that, you have to believe it and to believe it, you have to DO it...
((( )))
Oh 25, those are excellent. I need you in a little hidden ear piece when the next conversation comes up. Thank you. I get the tactic as well, I'll have to think about other questions or thinggs she brings up to counter in similar ways.
And to the real point, I don't want to be the guy that was just up there making her feel intimidated, its not my intent but that doesnt change the fact that is how I came accross, that is how I made her feel. I don't like that guy, regardledd of how this turns out with her, I just can't stand that I made someone feel that way. I realise there are prob no quick answers on this one, but I suppose being aware of it is half the battle.
Any tips on dealing with the coldness that is there when the kids aren't there.
Thanks again, really good stuff.
I'm struggling a bit with the use of the forums.
My situation is essentially posted in this thread however I've been posting under MLC when I thought the readers/resposes of that group my have some specific insight into what appears to be my issues.
But I've also noticed that this form often has more viewing and more activity than that one. I think that my most recent post there on
kids might have good responses from this group as well.
Advice on either my post or my forum question is greatly appreciated.
FYI it's best to stay on one thread so we can be informed and advise accordingly. Otherwise you'll leave something out of one thread or you'll get repetitive advice...
it's easier for us to follow your story and advise, in other words.
FWIW, I don't think your w's in a MLC, nor would my advice to you be different even if it she is...
I will post a note from a WAW to her h in a bit.
Parts of it may not apply. YOU will have to assess that.
But it's to her h, after HE SAYS he has changed.
He can't grasp why she doesn't just give up the OM and reconcile...
it may help you understand your w's views, even if you don't agree with them...
Hang in there.
Here is the post I mentioned---
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments.
I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your Spouse - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, [about the changes lasting or her feelings of rejection/pain] I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail.
You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."
-------------
Thanks 25. Yes some of this applies. It's been a weird year going from the best summer over to this in a very short amount of time. But I know the feelings she has, those which I helped to foster have been building much much longer. I get it wont happen overnight. I'm realizing I never really knew what the true meaning of patience is. Especially with backslides like this one. Seems like one step forward three steps back.
This may be too simple to boil down MLC vs WAW but I think about it this way:
Is she leaving because she can't stand you?
Or
She can't stand herself?
Not for you to answer but that to me is the difference. And she is the only one that can say and the only one that can fix it.
So
Advice is the same. Work on you. That is what you control.
People from MLC read and post up here so it doesn't really matter where you post your story.
We will find you but stick to one thread.
I'm realizing I never really knew what the true meaning of patience is.
And what is it? For you?
I've had a breakthrough in the last couple of weeks and have a confession i'd like to share here first before doing anything more .
I have control issues. I'm a fixer. I have to offer help when it isn't requested. Or make suggestions to ideas when proposed when that was not the reason for them being told to me. I do it to everyone, but I do it mostly to my wife. Over the years when she had the courage to call me on it I would hide behind saying "I'm only trying to help". While I thought so at the time I wasn't giving any consideration to her feelings, the reason she was telling me. Or even, worse blaming her with the "they're you feelings" routine and not taking any responsibilty for myself. I feel horrible. The pain in my heart the came about as this all came into perspective is almost unbearable. She tried to tell me off and on over the years and I didn't listen. I'm sure my doing this made her feel stupid, inadequate, not good enough and who knows what else, I was insensitive to her pleas and thinking of it now tears me up. I do not want to be that man. Even in the few days since I came to this, I've been in situations with others where I began to say or do something and it dawned on me I was about to do it. It was a horrible feeling understanding how that has been a part of me and how many people I must have made feel poorly. I am so sorry.
Any suggestions from moving on from here would be great. Do I even bother sharing this with my W? At this point do these things really matter to anyone but me? They're my issues and i need to grow from them, but it does feel like i owe her an apology after so many years of doing this to her.
SH... read your post from last night. You said, "... in the few days since I came to this, I've been in situations with others where I began to say or do something and it dawned on me I was about to do it."
You are, in fact, changing that in you. Congratulations!
What would you be doing if you gave the apology? Hint... think... "more of the same"...
Here's a suggestion. Get a piece of paper. On it... write all the things you want to apologize for. Point form is fine. Update it as necessary. Keep it handy and keep it private... Then... IF you ever right "that" letter to your W... you are half way there...
I'm still a newbie myself, but our sitchs have some commonality. My advice (having made the mistake just last week)is to leave her be and detach. It is incredibly challenging to do this, however it is required for both the healing process for her and more importantly, for you to forgive yourself and start making head-way out of the emotional morasse.
I so need spell check...
Thanks guys. What an interesting journey. The pain associated with her decision, thinking about the kids, and now the pain of my own soul searching - all while trying to detach, move on and GAL. It's almost unbearable some days. I'm surprised I even am able to get out of bed.
I get the point of more of the same and so want to be carefule here. Things are pretty cold right now and the only real communication happens while the kids are around. But of all of the things I've apologized for to her over our history together this seems like a truly important one. For now, I'm trying to draft my feelings, but the urge to tell her is quite strong.
Help. I'm really getting pressured about the paper work. She says that i'm doing nothing and have my head in the sand. Even though I told her I've been doing plenty, just not what she's doing. It's making her angry and she says she's just going to go ahead and file without me. I don't know what to do. I have glimpses of her parenting plan from her discussions and know that she wants to take them away and have me move closer to where she wants to go so that i can have them 50% of the time. I don't want to move, I want to keep them in school here, and I want to have custody of them if she plans on moving away. I'm at a loss, lawyer says I should just sit back and wait to see what she's going to do, but it seems to be causing a lot of anger. Not sure how to handle this, anyone have some good ideas?
So, I'm not sure where she stands with the paperwork. Taking the advice of my coach, I said, I'm just not there yet. The decisions we make right now will have an impact on how well the kids adjust. And given she still feels angry with me and we're not at peace with each other (even though I'm being happy and trying to GAL, she acts cold, curt most of the time), so given that its not in the best interest of the kids for her to file and push the issue into telling the kids.
She'll either decide the intensive with michele on co-parenting is a good idea to solve those issues, go ahead and file, maybe find some local co-parenting counceling, or do nothing. Even though I know I can't do anything about it, I can't stop thinking about it, all while trying to GAL and focus on other things. It is so hard.
OMG. I just stumbled upon the proof of her affair. What do i do with this information? I want to call her out and leverage it for the counseling she refused to go for. unbelievable. Will this work?
You never know. When I found the proof of my H's affair, I waited a couple of days and thought about whether or not to confront him. In the end, I did confront him and he denied it. But I had proof, so he knew he was caught. It helped to end the lying. But it wasn't a quick turnaround.
About a week after I confronted my H that I knew he was having an affair, we had a very bad argument. I thought our marriage was over, and I made a mental note to call a divorce lawyer the next day. But, what I said to my husband was, "I've heard of a program called Retrouvaille that helps people like us, who are on the verge of divorce. I think we should try it." And miraculously, he said yes. We both knew that unless we got help, we couldn't continue together, and even with help, we might not.
So I googled it on the internet and found the next weekend program in my area. And we went. It changed our lives! In just that one weekend, we found the people we had lost in the marriage. I recommend that you ask your wife to go to a Retrouvaille weekend with you. And read the latest post from Endeavour, where she tells the story of her reconciliation.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2218415#Post2218415
Thanks Lotus. Well I managed to get a last minute call with my DB coach at 8:30 and i'm so glad i did. I would've confronted it pretty head on, made lots of threats and tried to move her to my way of thinking as a result - and i would have failed miserably. I ended up printing out some, not all, of what i had. Put a small note on the front saying, i had found the attached and was pretty hurt by it. And that we cold discuss it later when kids weren't around. Put in a big envelope with her name on it. She was out of the house and so I sent her a text to tell her there were documents i needed her to look at and that i would go get the kids from early out. Then I left. I wasn't there when she opened it but I got 4 or 5 text messages over about and hour. Interesting seeing the change in thought process, and I could just say little or nothing at all. Nice to do a major 180 (she would have expected me to totally confront her with that info), and to have some power in the conversation for a change. As it turns out she didn't bring up anytime after I got home today and left to go out with friends. So it's likely still evolving. I hope she's thinking about it and wondering what it cold mean. The real frustrating thing is that she thinks it's all ok because she did this stuff after telling me she wanted the divorce. The things she can justify right now is just amazing. There are so many contradictions and irrationality that blows me away. Tomorrow's another day so we'll see if it comes up, but at this point i'm being nonchalant and enjoying company of the kids. I plan on just keeping that up tomorrow and then on sunday she leaves (guess where, oh well). If anything more about it comes up I'll share it here. Oh, and she never did file the papers as far as I know. But when I do my affidavit to dispute her idea of a parenting plan, I plan on using all these emails to show that these actions are not action of someone i want taking care of my kids. I want them, and I would do 50/50 if it wasn't that she wants to move about 6 hours from here. If the pushes that then I'll push for full custody. I'll keep it updated here as often as I can.
How to keep the db'ing going?
Feeling really sad today. Having a hard time understanding, well everything. I'm mad about the affair, sad about her choices given our commitments to our marriage, to having a family, to everything we did together. And given all that I know in my heart I still love her. I will fight for my happiness and I'll fight forthe best possible outcome for my kids. Whilei I've always said that means keepng us all together, trying to DB today seems like an impossible and pointless effort. She's packing her bags for her trip tomorrow that includes her visit with the OM. And all the stiff she's thrown in my direction aboutwhat I've done to here, it's never been this. How do you DB in the face of hypocrisy, lies and
Oops. ... and false claims? Trying to find 180's and good attitudes? I feel like I'm missing something and I can't put my finger on it. Especially when the desire to try to reason our way through this is so strong.
Oops. ... and false claims? Trying to find 180's and good attitudes? I feel like I'm missing something and I can't put my finger on it. Especially when the desire to try to reason our way through this is so strong.
Oops. ... and false claims? Trying to find 180's and good attitudes? I feel like I'm missing something and I can't put my finger on it. Especially when the desire to try to reason our way through this is so strong.
Oops. ... and false claims? Trying to find 180's and good attitudes? I feel like I'm missing something and I can't put my finger on it. Especially when the desire to try to reason our way through this is so strong.
Oops. ... and false claims? Trying to find 180's and good attitudes? I feel like I'm missing something and I can't put my finger on it. Especially when the desire to try to reason our way through this is so strong.
Oops. ... and false claims? Trying to find 180's and good attitudes? I feel like I'm missing something and I can't put my finger on it. Especially when the desire to try to reason our way through this is so strong.
my gosh. I have no words of wisdom, but just a (()) for you. Sounds like a poopy day.
Can you do something small like eat a tub of HagenDaz and watch your favorite movie? Or if you're up to it, go for a yummy beverage with a friend?
I am doing the former of my suggestions, but replace movie with marathon of favorite series on National Geographic
Sorry everyone for the multiple posts, i was posting from my phone and didn't realize it was doing that.
Thanks a bunch oneeleven. Any distraction is good. So last night the kids and I streamed a movie and had some popcorn. We had fun, and my W spent the entire time in her room packing for the trip or in the office on her PC working on something. Whatever.
My DB coach is a genius. The soft confrontation seems to have worked. Last night after the movie and the kids were in bed, she came down and sat down in the living room and apologized to me, she said twice that she was sorry for how things had shaped up over the weekend. She was very soft about it and not accusing or mean like her text messages had been when she first saw the info I'd left. I'm so glad I wasn't here and also glad that I didn't jump on the confrontation right away without talking it through. However her apology was immediately followed by "I know you have copies of the stuff you showed me, and I don't know what your plans are but I just hope that you think of the ramifications of showing to people, it wont help anyone" So in one my biggest 180's ever, i didn't say a word. I just sat there looking at her and waited. That's when the second apology came. So is she sorry she did it, or sorry she got caught. Well she drove there anyway today, so I guess I have my answer. After that part of the conversation she said "I hope you know I'm not trying to hurt you" Again I stayed quiet, but I literally had to squeeze my lips tightly to not just explode. Then she changed the subject. The odd thing is that we did end up having a very nice conversation after that point. Talked about several things both R related and not. When I woke up this morning, I was sad again. Having that reach on her part makes me want to reach back so hard, but I know it's not going to work, but it's really hard to 180 and not begin to try to reason with her. She did come up on her way out this morning and find me (I was trying really hard to stay away, didn't really want to be there when she said goodbye, know where she's going, I was afraid i might just breakdown and beg her not to go). When she did, i was laying on our bed with the door mostly closed and she came in and stood right next to me. She said she was leaving and in another 180, I just kind of rolled up on one side, looked at her and said O.K. She was just looking at me and I actually didn't know what that look was on her face - hurt, anger, I really couldn't tell, which is odd. So I asked her if she wanted a hug or something. She turned and said "I don't know" as she walked out the door. Maybe I should have left her go like that, but I got up went downstairs and as she gathered her final things and headed to the door, i gave her a hug, reminded her of the regret I have for my mistakes, she smiled, said she knew, then I said good by and told her to be careful on the roads. In retrospect, I think I was probably reaching too hard, and why am I still apologizing for my mistakes, while still in the shadows of confirming her affair. This is really confusing sometimes. So the next couple of days should be good with just me and the kids. But after that, when she comes home, do I just forget about the affair for now, continue to DB, and continue the work on myself, GAL, etc?
Wall of Text=Hard to Read
My DB coach is a genius. The soft confrontation seems to have worked. Last night after the movie and the kids were in bed, she came down and sat down in the living room and apologized to me, she said twice that she was sorry for how things had shaped up over the weekend.
She was very soft about it and not accusing or mean like her text messages had been when she first saw the info I'd left. I'm so glad I wasn't here and also glad that I didn't jump on the confrontation right away without talking it through.
However her apology was immediately followed by "I know you have copies of the stuff you showed me, and I don't know what your plans are but I just hope that you think of the ramifications of showing to people, it wont help anyone" So in one my biggest 180's ever, i didn't say a word. I just sat there looking at her and waited. That's when the second apology came. So is she sorry she did it, or sorry she got caught.
Well she drove there anyway today, so I guess I have my answer.
After that part of the conversation she said "I hope you know I'm not trying to hurt you" Again I stayed quiet, but I literally had to squeeze my lips tightly to not just explode. Then she changed the subject. The odd thing is that we did end up having a very nice conversation after that point. Talked about several things both R related and not.
When I woke up this morning, I was sad again. Having that reach on her part makes me want to reach back so hard, but I know it's not going to work, but it's really hard to 180 and not begin to try to reason with her.
She did come up on her way out this morning and find me (I was trying really hard to stay away, didn't really want to be there when she said goodbye, know where she's going, I was afraid i might just breakdown and beg her not to go). When she did, i was laying on our bed with the door mostly closed and she came in and stood right next to me. She said she was leaving and in another 180, I just kind of rolled up on one side, looked at her and said O.K. She was just looking at me and I actually didn't know what that look was on her face - hurt, anger, I really couldn't tell, which is odd. So I asked her if she wanted a hug or something. She turned and said "I don't know" as she walked out the door.
Maybe I should have left her go like that, but I got up went downstairs and as she gathered her final things and headed to the door, i gave her a hug, reminded her of the regret I have for my mistakes, she smiled, said she knew, then I said good bye and told her to be careful on the roads.
In retrospect, I think I was probably reaching too hard, and why am I still apologizing for my mistakes, while still in the shadows of confirming her affair. This is really confusing sometimes. So the next couple of days should be good with just me and the kids. But after that, when she comes home, do I just forget about the affair for now, continue to DB, and continue the work on myself, GAL, etc?
On a side note, I realize this likely isn't DB'ing. But what are peoples thoughts about contacting the OM (or OW) and requesting, nicely of course, that they back off. Let them know there is a person, family they are messing with?