Wife Says I fill her with hate when she sees me

Well not all the time - only when the kids are crazy and she's tired and overworked (which just happens to be the only times we see each other).

Says she looks at me and just hates me. Plain hates me. Because it's my fault the economy collapsed and took my business with it and now I struggle as a consultant and there are no jobs in my field. So every time she sees me, she is reminded of my mistakes which forced her to stop being a stay at home mom and go back to work and to school since I cannot support our $1.3M in mortgages on an upside down house. Forget love, how do I just get her not to hate me?

Cali...I feel for you. I've been dealing with the same thing. My W has been all over the board mostly because she's scared about our D proceedings.

I'm no expert but I can tell you when my W and I finally talked about things and I have given her space, her angered levels plummeted. At least for now

.

I don't know if there's a magic bullet but you may need to get away from each other for a while.

Hang in there man....It is very tough to be hated. Love yourself.

yes, ReallyOver has a point. SPACE is a big healer. Did you read the DB and DR books? What are your goals? (more specific than just getting her not to hate you?)

For many of us whose spouse has already said it's over, the principles work wonders. If your W has not said that or asked for D, PLEASE start DB/DR techniques yesterday!! It will help.

A true DB answer...You can't. You cannot get her to not hate you. She has to reach that point on her own or she doesn't. But you really will have little control over that.

If you spend time focusing on trying to reduce the hate, you will always be disappointed and it will seem like a waste.

You CAN do things like give her space, time, etc. You can become a better person, father, friend, etc. Accept that you have no control of her emotions, then focus on what you can control - you.

First off, you should try sticking to one thread. It makes it easier to follow you and your progress.

Second, she doesn't hate you. She hates the situation. You are a part of that situation but not the cause. It's the A, it's the guilt, it's all those things and rather than dealing with the issue, she's shutting down and lashing out to protect herself. It happens with all of the WAS's.

From what I've seen in your other posts, you've concentrated alot on her and what she's done. Have you done any changing? What were her gripes about the M? First thing you need to do is to try and get the anger, frustration, etc. all out and start being pro-active in fixing rather than punishing.

Bottom line: Do you want to save your marriage?

Thanks for sharing RV. I appreciate the support.

Mr. Bond. Good advice. Yes I will stick to one post. Sorry, been reeling as I am sure most here can relate.

Yes, I have been really focusing on myself more than I have in 5 years. I have been a passenger in my own life for the last 5 years and distant third to her and the kids in priority for 3. So yeah, I am going to my friend's beach house for a week and learning a new instrument, going out with friends, going to alumni events, reconnnecting and generally rebuilding my confidence along with long-neglected friendships.

I wasn't referring to your GAL activities. If you GAL, yet remain the same person, why would your W come back to you?

What gripes did she have about you? Have you actually worked on your character besides going out?

Thanks, good point. Yes, I am doing my best to GAL and work on my character flaws at the same time. She even noticed that I have been smiling more and much more attentive. She actually laughed today.

Here are some of the gripes: I spin my wheels, I work really hard but the results aren't enough because I am not an efficient worker. She claims i intentionally don't clean the kitchen to her standards on purpose so she won't ask me to do it (not true), I always look unhappy. I am too long winded. I ignore her (the big one and true until the last week), I don't set boundaries, I push things and people off, I am aloof, she doesn't like my voice, my breath smells, I snore, I let people walk all over me - and the opposite: I am too abrasive and demanding of people and they don't like me.

Alright, so you know that 3/4ths of that list is BS. Write those things that you know are truthful down and change those behaviors. What kind of man would your W want to date?

Thanks. Yeah, you're right. She'd want to date the guy I used to be - funny, social, spontaneous, thoughtful, sensitive.

OK so tonight at dinner she starts talking about our relationship again. Now she's going back to before she was pregnant, remembering all the bad times and convincing herself she was really unhappy then. We were always together, always laughing, very happy and very much in love during that time.

So is it best to just listen and nod and say nothing to correct her (even though she's forgetting?)?

Also, she is rewriting all of the negative things that happened and deleting her part in it (She spent the better part of 3 years screaming at me non-stop and was severely emotionally abusive). I've gotten over it but now her version of the story is that she was a 100% victim and has deleted all of the abusive things she did to me.

So same thing, just let her talk and tell her how sorry I am (which I did) and don't engage in an argument?

BTW - I am using Last Resort tactic right now because it is clear she is done-done.

Hi CD, sounds to me like you need some 180s. And from what I've learned here and from personal experience, trying to convince your W that it wasn't all bad is counterproductive. She's got to figure that out for herself.

Have you read all of the book? Sounds like you're not adhering to all of the principals. I'm sure some of the veterans around here can help more than I can, but I think you need to validate when she rants, and definitely avoid arguing. My H does the same thing about rewriting history, and it seems to be a common thread.

I can never remember exactly how it goes, but there is something in the book that says don't believe anything they say and only half of what they do... remember that, it'll help.

1) when they revise things so much that you cannot believe it ever happened that way you say

"Wow, I don't recall it that way, but I'm sorry you were hurt/upset by it."

*(note, YOU can have faulty recall so don't deny it happened. Nothing worse than forgetting an actual injury and denying it. Saying THIS^^ is not going to worsen or escalate things and takes ownership to an extent that doesn't make you a doormat)

2) when they revise things that are somewhat valid (or a lot valid)

you say "Yes well if I had it to do over again, there are a LOT of things I'd do differently."

This also prevents escalation and shows you have changed.

You must demonstrate that marriage to you now, and from this day forward

would be different/better than before.

So don't bother arguing with her that she actually was happy but is lying now

or that she Should have been happy...

if she says she's not happy now, she's not. Doesn't make it your fault.

If she says she was ALWAYS miserable, you stick to your

"Sorry you felt that way" mantra....and

3)

if she says something nice/great OR horrible/mean

but seems to want a response and you are just NOT sure how to react, then say

"W, I hear you and I know there's probably a perfect response to that question/statement, but it escapes me right now."

Good luck and read the Div Remedy book b/c I don't think you have.

marital revisions are scripted...nothing new here.

I've decided that I owe it to her and the kids to have the chance to understand what I can and cannot do. I am going to tell her that I love her and support her and understand what she is going through and why this OM has come into her life to fill the void I left in not providing her the emotional support she needed.

But that I cannot stay living in this house for my own self-respect if she decides to allow her affair to turn physical. I need her to know that out of respect for our 10 years of marriage, our kids and our future friendship what is going to happen if she decides to move forward to a physical relationship. I will tell her the honorable thing for her to do is to sell the house and divorce FIRST.

And if she does make the decision to cross that line but not sell, I will have to leave but I cannot afford to pay the mortgage AND rent somewhere else so her decision will result in a probable foreclosure. This is not a threat, just a reality. So in essence by having the affair, she will be flushing $200K of equity which could have paid for school for years.

So at least I have told her up front what will happen so it will not be a surprise when it happens and she will be able to truly understand the ramifications beforehand.

I know there are many saintly people here much more forgiving than I that can forgive an affair. I have come to terms that it would have been better if she had had the affair, ended it and THEN told me. Because now that she told me about the EA up front, I don't think I could forgive her moving forward with the physical, directly in front of my face. I just can't do it.

I spoke to a family law attorney today just to get a grip on process (it's an old friend). He told me that it's a shame - when all is said and done a "friendly" divorce ends up costing $10K-$15K in legal fees when you add up both sides...and if those couples dedicated that kind of money to a 2 week trip to Hawaii, they could probably resolve many of their problems....this is coming from a divorce lawyer!

Big mistake right now. Why?

Originally Posted By: calidad

I've decided that I owe it to her

You don't owe her $hit when it comes to her. Wrong approach! AND if you do this with the attitude of weakness, she is going to resent you even more.

DO NOT ACT unless you are in a position of STRENGTH. You are not there based on how you just wrote this.

Look, I get how you feel and I KNOW you are worth more than this, but don't you DARE do this unless you have the backbone to back it up. YOU are doing this to get a reaction. DON'T!

I support your choice and actually agree this is the best remedy, BUT not with this attitude. You have a boundary, but you wreak of weakness with this approach.

No owing, No I'm sorry, No nothing. You take it with an approach of "I CAN'T AND WILL NOT". IF you do this at all. It's all in your confidence. Just the brief read I got....You are not in that correct position.

fwiw,

I understand your pain and your position. But here's a little food for thought...

We often think we cannot (WILL NOT) forgive something.

But then, we find that if we are totally honest with ourselves,

maybe one big SIN isn't worth throwing it all away.

And, in the end, what I needed was to know it would not happen again.

I suspect that's a biggie for you right now.

I believe in my case, it won't re occur. What I KNOW is

that if my h were to get his wanderlust again --I'd regretfully but comfortably let him go and move on with my life without him.

No one, including h, will ever hurt me like that again. I KNOW this about ME.

But when you choose to not even TRY to forgive, that just smacks of pride and ego and anger, to me.

And plus, then you'll always wonder if you were really so qualified to withhold forgiveness, b/c as you have come to realize, You played a part in this...( at least, I felt that way. )

And my h has come a long way to redeeeming himself-a great example for the kids

and I have come a long way towards full forgiveness--also a great example for the kids.

That's our legacy to them. You can screw up, or be deeply wounded, and still recover.

Originally Posted By: calidad

Thanks. Yeah, you're right. She'd want to date the guy I used to be - funny, social, spontaneous, thoughtful, sensitive.

be him^^^ again. Be the better choice. And be the best dad you can be. It matters more now than ever...

Hey Faith, thanks for the note. The truth is I WILL walk away from the house if she gets physical. So you don't think she should know up front that her actions are going to cost the kids $200K in inheritance? Just not sure what the right move is as I think in her fantasy world, she thinks she will go have an affair while I sit here, living in the same house and just waiting for her to have her fun (that's the vibe I get). So at least by telling her the consequences up front, she will be making a conscious decision to flush our kids' future education fund by moving to the next step.

hear and re read what you wrote and then

re read Faiths' post to you more carefully.

Your pride will cost YOUR CHILDREN what? That sounds right to you?

How on earth can you say this and not wonder about other....

many other...sides to this.

How have you handled anger in the past?

Thanks MLC,

It's not that I can't forgive, it's just that I don't think I could forgive knowing that she told me up front and then went ahead to have a fling anyway - it's not just disrepectful, it's downright cruel to me AND the kids. It shows a lack of morality and character and frankly I don't want to be with someone that has the capacity to do that to someone they supposedly love and who puts themselves so far ahead of the kids.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Originally Posted By: calidad

Thanks. Yeah, you're right. She'd want to date the guy I used to be - funny, social, spontaneous, thoughtful, sensitive.

be him^^^ again. Be the better choice. And be the best dad you can be. It matters more now than ever...

Yeah, thanks MLC. Am rapidly becoming that guy. It's tough though.

Today I offered to make her an omelet. She said "only if it doesn't take you 30 minutes. In the past, I have had to run out of the kitchen and put the stove on minimum to take care of the kids when they are fighting or have to go to the bathroom. So sometimes it takes 20 or 30 minutes to cook what should be a 10 minute omelet.

So right after she made the comment, she went upstairs to fold the laundry. 5 minutes into the omelet, one of the kids starts screaming for me so I put it on low, go in and start dealing with it. She yells from downstairs "can't you handle the f'ing kids"? So I reacted poorly, saying "Yes, but just don't yell at me if the omelet takes longer than you want" to which I get an instant scream: "Shut the F up you fing ahole...you're such a dick. I HATE YOU!".

This has been a pattern for a long time. I make a slightly objectionable comment and she reacts with extreme rage and verbal abuse. How to break the pattern? If I say nothing, she thinks i'm a wimp and can't stand up for myself but if I argue then i'm an a-hole.

Maybe the answer is next time just make myself an omelet and don't bother asking if she wants one too?

Could really use help as if I can figure out how to deal with the unprovoked rage, that will be a huge step since it's a daily occurence.

She said this in front of the kids??

Calidad, Women tie their feelings of love to respect. You earn he respect by setting boundaries about her behavior. You validate her feelings then set a boundary about how she talks to you.

"I understand you are stressed and don't like me right now. When you talk to me like that it is disrespectful, rude and a bad influence on the kids. The next time you do it, I will point it out and if you continue to do it I will record you out of control outbursts."

Does your phone have a camera? Know how to use it quickly.

She can't stand being around you because she knows that you are allowing her to behave badly (language & A) and you have not stood up for yourself, her or the family. The OM is a predator and deep down she wants your protection, it's primal. Boundaries provide her some safety which she is craving. Do you love her enough to protect her and your family from this OM? She wants to know that you do. She does not respect you right now, earn her respect back. Strong, loving and fearless works.

Yes. She does it all the time. To the point where I forget that it's not right. She also in her rage turned to one of the kids and screamed "Shut Up!"

CD, I totally understand and get why you are so angry- what you describe is just horrible.

But, like others have said, don't react in anger. Your kids are the ones who will really suffer from it. My only advice is to take a breather, go dim, and collect yourself before you do ANYTHING. You might come to the same conclusion later, but at least you will arrive at that decision with a cool head.

I feel for you on the OM. I believe my H is with an OW as I type this, so I get it. But 25 is so right, you may surprise yourself with what you can forgive. One of my goals is to be able to look my D in the eye later in life and say, I did everything I could.

Take care.

ROMB,

Thanks for the support. Yeah, I am with you on the "did everything I could" front. Really trying hard -- it's just tough to stay on point when kindness is met with straight up abuse. Today was a tough one. Hopefully tomorrow will be better!

I think I will stop doing things like making her breakfast and dinner. It's something I've done for a long time so stopping will signal a change.

yes, that could be a good 180 for you.

It's been an emotional roller coaster the last 10 days since she dropped the bomb.

I have admittedly done some terrible things in ignorning her and demonstrated a great lack of compassion for how much pain she was in.

That said, I am now really thinking back to my day-in-day out life and analyzing why I wasn't more empathetic.

The reason I blamed her was because she has actually been a monster. Every day the smallest mistake or forgotten task or the slightest hint of attitude or backtalk has been met with severe verbal lashings. Seriously, there was a long time when I though she might have Tourettes. This still happens now that we are separated, living together - but not as often.

For instance, if I didn't do the dishes to her liking, she would go on a tirade, accusing me of not doing them well intentionally so that she would have to redo it and stop asking me (that paranoia showed up in a lot of tasks - she was always accusing me of sabotaging things so that she wouldn't ask me to do them).

Then, if I tried to discuss it or defend myself calmly (I always keep my cool), I would trigger instant and severe rage, "F you you fing ahole. You're such a loser, d#$f$ck pansy s#$tbag" She would do this in front of the kids all the time. She would also scream at the kids (during 12-30 months in age) in the same way probably 1-2 times a week during her post partum. Sometimes she would just look at me and sense my nervousness was enough to trigger verbal abuse.

She also has had highly enhanced senses - smell and hearing especially to the point where ordinary level music, sounds, barely detectable smells cause acute pain to her and she needs to leave the room (she claims she was always this way but I don't think that's true).

After she gave birth, I believe her hormones became unbalanced. It would explain a lot as she recently took a personality test and it actually classified her as a man (which she's proud of?). She acts like someone who has too much testosterone - kind of like someone on steroids.

So while I am highly regretful of the pain I have caused her by totally neglecting her and her needs and treating her poorly for 5 years -- I want to hear from the community - is the behavior I am describing normal for a woman who is miserable in their relationship? Or does it sound like there is something else going on?

Been doing some research and re-reading about Postpartum Depression and Postpartum PSYCHOSIS. During her postpartum she kept telling me she had depression and I would tell her it was psychosis and she needed to see someone. She refused to see a doctor, went on Anti-depressants and that was it.

Now that I am rewinding, I realize that 90% of her behavior - the paranoia, the extreme rage and anger, hallucinations, night sweats, lethargy, abusive behavior, negative thoughts towards kids, etc. are all signs of postpartum psyhcosis. When she would have rage fits, as soon as she was done she would return to normal quickly and acted as if nothing had happened.

Assuming that she did have postpartum psychosis - and they say if it's not treated in can recur later in life (which seems the case) - should I try and correct my mistake and get her to see a doctor now? Or is that just inviting more confrontation?

[quote=calidad]ROMB,
[b]
Thanks for the support. Yeah, I am with you on the "did everything I could" front. Really trying hard -- it's just tough to stay on point when kindness is met with straight up abuse. Today was a tough one. Hopefully tomorrow will be better!

I think I will stop doing things like making her breakfast and dinner. It's something I've done for a long time so stopping will signal a change. [/quote][/b]

2 x 4 time...get a helmet

Look, I don't want to just whine and nag at you like I'm taking the chicks' side, etc

but this thing where you are a victim and her rage is "unprovoked..."and you've "done everything" WHILE acting a whole lot like HER...well,

really? THEN gee

I guess you are powerless to change ANYTHING

b/c your nasty remark was of course justified...and you have fixed all the other things that bother her. SIGH

As long as you are playing the victim who "has done everything"

(oh please)...

then I guess you are just powerless and your m is over....

or

you can dig a whole lot deeper.

What the heck are your 180s? What are YOUR GAL activities?

What were her complaints about you and what are YOU doing about those traits?

Do something about THIS ^^^^

OR

stomp your feet and keep venting about how you'll punish her and the kids for HER disrespecting you "and the kids" and yada yada (as if the kids are being disrespected-this is almost all about Your ego,

which is highly developed for a guy who fears being a wimp).

Sorry but you are better than this. Your kids deserve a lot more from YOU, other than your pride/ego dictating your reactions.

So just do better. At least try.

Going to jump in,

Read your sitch dude quit trying to make yourself the victim. You don't have to pretend for us. We have all made mistakes, admitting to them is step one.

Secondly all this talk about doing things wrong, and not being appreciated, sounds like your W is tired of you running stealth contracts on her. She's angry, and it just makes you have a victim puke.

Also have you stopped to consider that she treats you like crap because you let her? You talk about how much patience it takes not to go off on her etc etc. Sounds like you're making excuses in order to avoid conflict. What does she get from this she learns she can walk all over you. This infuriates her even more because guess what, women don't like weak men.

Ok so big rant here, but that's because I'm in the middle of re-reading No More Mr Nice Guy, and you fit some of the case studies to a T. Look were not trying to judge and I can assure you no one here enjoys seeing what you are going through. So let me tell you that I recommend this book, because I was there too. The yelling, the anger, the name calling, the blatant disregard for all we do, yeah I was there. All because I could not man up for myself. You think you're manning up with your ultimatum but really it's just a victim puke, almost everyone here can see it.

Now I will not go and explain the whole process here, but bottomline you have most likely been exhibiting some traits and behaviors that in your mind, are good "nice guy qualities". In reality they suffocate, pressure, and black mail those you love. You may see yourself as genuinely nice, but in reality you are trying to manipulate those around you. Eventually those around you consciously or subconciously see through this and lash out. (you're whole story with the chores, comes to mind and is eerily familiar).

Ever felt like you give and give and never get the recognition you deserve? Like you take care of the family, be it financially, or cooking, cleaning, whatever, but people don't appreciate it?

Don't know you personally but I could be just plain wrong. Either way just get the book read a few chapters, and ask yourself. Am I really like this? The answer may surprise you.

Hey Green,

Thanks for the post. I bought the e-book of No More Mr. Nice guy and you're right. That's me to a T. Damn. Same problems with my ex-business partner (in fact I couldn't set boundaries with him either and he dominated my time and I allowed him to control me to a pretty large extent).

Got a lot of reflecting to do and a support group to join.

It's pretty eye opening isn't it?

Welcome to the road to being an integrated man. Like a lot of things in DB, [edited by dbmod, reference not recommended nor allowed] will seem very counterintuitive, it's not, you're just used to seeing it that way because of your preconceived notions. It's truly life changing but very hard, especially the first couple of times you put your foot down. In fact expect extra push back from your w as she tests you to see if these changes are real and permanent. Good luck and keep us posted

Alot of the changes from [edited by dbmod, reference not recommended nor allowed]count as 180's too so go ahead and share!!

Thanks GB. It is a jaw dropper in fact. I have run two successful (and then unsuccessful) companies and pictured myself as this strong leader. Wow, what a wake up call.

I did assert myself today and met surprisingly little resistance. She has been saying for years that I rub people the wrong way and that our nanny and I have a personality conflict so she doesn't want me managing the nanny. It came up today again and I told her that the nanny is my employee and it really doesn't matter if she likes me or not. She works for me and she has such a dislike for me as a boss or person, then there are hundreds of qualified nannies in line behind her. I expected a fight but she looked at me and nodded and moved on to something else. Hopefully a good sign for the future!

I know it's going to be a long process and I will learn the nuances in time - but question re: your exH. So when you first started standing up for yourself, what did you do the first couple times he escalated to screaming? In other words, I can handle the debate but when she starts screaming I freeze. I just haven't been equipped to deal with someone screaming in my face. So do you yell back or do you get up and leave? or does he not go that far?

*Following your sitch* Thinking of you calidad! Sending you strength and good thoughts.

She came home tonight and we had a positive talk. I am using the Last Resort technique right now. She said she'd be right back and was going to go upstairs and get changed and then grab something - she implied that she wanted to talk more. So I took the opportunity to say I had something else to do (normally I would wait like a puppy) and I left the room.

Then I just noticed on our phone that right after I bailed on her, she called her EA OM for 17 minutes. Hard to say but maybe she took me leaving as a sign that I am still ignoring her and therefore went to him for comfort. Thoughts?

Don't go overboard with anything. Seriously, a 180 is one thing, a freakish over the top compensating behavior is another. IT won't be believed either.

Be authentically YOU but know that we all, including YOU, can/do evolve.

Your comments about the nanny (without knowing the context of course) alarmed me.

Yes IT DOES matter whether your employees like or respect you. They work MUCH more and much harder when they like you. Period.

It's just human.

Plus a nanny's job is caring for your kids and of all the employee/employer R's, this may be the most important one, the one I most care about in terms of getting along and seeing eye to eye. I told my nanny she was like my assistant or partner and I WELCOMED her feedback... (we had her 5 years and would kept on having her if we had not moved. My sister also hired her)

She was helping us raise our kids for God's sake.

Why do you now think your companies failed? Is this a pattern? A "my way or the high way"? You might want to read "From Good to Great" about management theory and how great companies ALWAYS have great leaders or teams.

Anyhow, another book many men find helpful is either called "N.U.T.S" or Hold onto your N.U.T.S" Someone around here can guide you there.

and of course you MUST read "the Five Love Languages" so you can determine if your w feels unloved or why YOU feel unloved b/c

it may turn out that she HAS been loving you, unnoticed, b/c her love language being transmitted, isn't being received by you. It's among the best 2-3 marriage books out there, imo, and applies to both sexes.

At a workshop I attended decades ago, a doctor there said he was unappreciated and disconnected from his w, etc. Towards the end of the 4 days he said she was coming to our "graduation" and that pleased him some.

Then he changed his mind and told her not to attend after all, and she changed her plans accordingly with no complaint. Later, He actually called to ask her to come that night, b/c he had changed his mind again, and she said she'd be there!

Suddenly he stood up and said something like

"WTH is wrong with me? I've been such a fool! I've turned away from all this love she sends, b/c it's not wrapped the way I wanted it
AND
I've wasted so much time and missed out on receiving so much love she was trying to give me..." Wow, that's an "aha" moment for sure.

I never forgot that.

Your m sounds like one in which she suffered a long time and was very lonely. Now she has made a move to have more love in her life and didn't want more rejection from you so

she turned elsewhere. And I keep hearing about how you can't handle that

and therefore ALL SHALL SUFFER the wrath of your refusal to even try and forgive...

and I just shake my head and think you are missing such big life lessons.

(NEWSFLASH...forgiveness isn't easy for ANYONE...you are not unusual there, but some people somehow do it anyhow...

I never thought I'd accept most of what my h did in his MLC....seriously. But life has a way of making some black/white issues a little grayer. And pride and ego blur things too much too.

A fine but blurry line exists between self respect and prideful ego...and that line shifts too...but we all have to hunt for it and hold onto it when we find it.

I NEVER saw forgiveness modelled in my childhood. I had to learn how to do it and it is a process. But it's freeing...to ME Mostly, then h and the marriage and it's a lesson for our kids.

A lesson in redemption for my h, my forgiving him (and myself) for our own mistakes and those others do to us, and moving forward, making constructive life changes. THAT is a legacy for your kids worth considering...

or just divorce her b/c "so help me if she crosses that ONE line I cannot handle, I'll show HER!!" Gee, that's a different kind of lesson.

Mind you, if she's a jerk about this or 2 years from now you are still here (as if!!) But I am not asking you to be a doormat...understand/accept that at face value bc I am not. Plus, it's not attractive.

Hopefully the books will open your eyes some, and maybe the people here, and maybe a mc or DB coach?

Something has to really change your perspective, no matter what else happens.

You are not really in a position to tell her your demands right now. Unless you want to lose her for good. Maybe you do.

What is your goal? What are you working on in YOU?

Hi there. I've been following your story too and feel for you. I also felt like the unfairly treated victim of my H just being inexplicably mean. I learned that there was a way we had developed of bringing out each others' worst qualities.

I recommend reading the Dance of Anger. I think you will see your relationship in some of the examples.

You might have anticipated that your comment about not being mad if her omelet took longer would set her off. When it did set her off you felt outraged, but you actually participated in it with (what I read as) a passive-aggressive comment.

Sounds like you're at the kids' beck and call and feel helpless - between them and her. Why not get one of them to "help" cook breakfast with you, to make sure you have peace among them while you cook. Or get them coloring in the kitchen with you. Pre-empt their neediness.

Just a couple of thoughts. I am having a lot of the same problems you are.

Also, re your threat that her PA will cost the kids $200K... I don't think that will have your intended effect. In her mind it is you causing her to have a PA in the first place, so ultimately she'll still think it's your fault. Her thinking is twisted right now.

Do you really want her to come back to you because you told her if she doesn't it'll cost the kids money? I would not respond well to a threat.

Thanks for taking the time to write this. Great advice and I will look into the books after I am done with DB/ DR and [edited by dbmod: reference not recommended nor allowed].

Here's my catch 22 and maybe there's no good answer...

My revelation is that she sees me as weak and unnattractive because I have not been able to set boundaries or stand up with myself for her and lots of others. I have very much been a man with Nice Guy Syndrome. I have been passive aggressive and indirect.

So if I tolerate her openly dating without selling the house and without filing for divorce, then I am just repeating the behavior and sending signals that I can be walked all over and am clearly not a real man. I am also just repeating the behavior of keeping my head down and trying to minimize conflict (which is my natural instinct, sadly).

If I set a boundary now with her in the head space she is in, I do really risk her seeing it as an ultimatum and it could burn the relationship entirely....on the other hand, she might respect the fact that for once when it most matters, I have actually stepped up to the line and told her honestly how I feel and that I can't stay living here if she is actively dating and I cannot afford to pay rent and mortgage so we have to get rid of the house.

So damned if you do, damned if you don't.

"My revelation is that she sees me as weak and unnattractive because I have not been able to set boundaries or stand up with myself for her and lots of others."

How do you know that? Did you ask her? All of that stuff about seeming weak, etc. flies only to a certain degree. You should be standing up for yourself already. That includes doing what you want to do and becoming the better man because it's what you desire to do. Not because you think it's what your W wants.

"I feel and that I can't stay living here if she is actively dating and I cannot afford to pay rent and mortgage so we have to get rid of the house."

You notice how you end up doing what she wants any way? Do you want to get rid of the house? Have her come up with a solution. What do you want to keep and have? Start thinking of your needs.

gabby,

don't be offended about what I'm going to say now okay, b/c it's not aimed at you.

But all this conflict avoidance stuff we discuss here and my h showed much of in 05-07 (not all fixed either but better)...

well, first off, WHO "LIKES" CONFLICT??

No one (except for bullies.)

Most of us want to avoid conflict. But some of us face it while others hide from it or pass the buck or do the passive aggressive

And ironically it nearly always ( i submit it DOES ALWAYS) add to the conflict in the long run.

Example, when we got married, we married in my Church (Catholid). H's mother is orthodox (very similar but not to HER). I was told NOTHING about any objections to it being Catholic.

I invited an orthodox priest to participate, but he told me my MIL has asked HIM to do the whole thing...wth? I said, "no, it's Catholic but we wanted a joint ceremony and your blessing." HE declined, thanks to my MIL promsing something I had no idea about. SHE AND MY H were conflict avoidant.

THEN H promised her and her relatives we would raise the kids Orthodox...wth? NEVER SAID A WORD TO ME....I swear. If he had, I'd have said "expose them to both" for I have no problem with his religion except it's in Russian...but I'd take the kids.

SIDENOTE: in 30 years of marriage and 2 years of dating, h has NOT ONCE suggested going to his church, or ANY orthodox church NOR has he gone himself...

whereas I do go to mine. It means a lot more to me than it does to him but HIS family is a different matter. Like I said, I knew NONE of this.

So on baptism day for our newborn son, his mother suddenly declines attending and the grandfather who came out to meet our son, flew out the day before. I was so hurt. On a speaker phone, mil told h that it was b/c it was Catholic and I had never faced anti-Catholicism in my life. (And It's not like I'm some great pious Catholic but this really bugged me....)

Still, h never told me of his promises to them. They probably believed I HAD LIED and broken my promises....but it was all h telling them what he thought they wanted to hear, never giving me a chance to say no, and the relationships between them and me being horrible afterwards...

thanks for the conflict avoiding....it lead to much deeper worse damage at my expense.

You have an anger problem you don't seem to see. Sure, she does to. But all I hear about is your anger and your

punitive solutions.

I understand your dilemma, but you have a lot more options than the 2 of being a doormat or a jerk.

Did you say you read the DR book? I think you did, so what are you trying now with her?

AND what are your GAL? They matter.

Thanks and yes - she has told me multiple times that she doesn't respect me because I don't set boundaries, I am a doormat, I can't say no to her or almost anyone else, etc. (I didn't used to be this way).

What I want seems unlikely. I want her to break off the affair and go to counseling and try and repair my once happy family. If that's not possible, then I want her to move out and leave me with the kids. If neither works, then I want to sell the house, yes.

That's not what I meant. What do you want that's within your control? What have you been doing that's within your control? You obviously can't force her to leave you the kids. What's realistic?

And if you believe your family was truly happy, you wouldn't be here. What have you done to fix that without making the A an obsession? It's hard, I know, but you've got to start thinking objectively.

and dig deeper... be brave about it.

We all ALL have our dark sides. But glossing over them or hiding from them truly makes them bigger and worse.

Thanks MB and MLC,

I am clearly aware now that I have Mr. Nice Guy Syndrome. I didn't always have this (although I am sure it was buried deep inside). But the reality is the last 5-6 years I have been living to please her and my life has become about her and trying to make her happy and has ceased being about me and what I want. I have become passive aggressive, angry, manipulative, weak, unable to set boundaries or stand up for myself and incapable of following through on most tasks because I have become so distracted. I isolated myself from a large group of friends that I had and have not been around men really in 4 years. Before our hardship, I was much more integrated, not afraid of conflict and was great with people; I knew who I was and was proud of my accomplishments. I was considered a great and kind leader in business, managing and mentoring dozens of brilliant tech minds.

The strategy I am currently employing is The Last Resort because that is where I am. I am now going to take up boxing, I am going to sporting events and college alumni meetings, reconnecting with friends and I am slowly regaining my confidence. It is going to be a long process. I am also going to start setting boundaries with her and stop saying yes to things that I don't want to do.

Here's what my counselor said about situations like you describe with the over-the-top screaming and swearing. First, when things are calm, have a discussion. Whether you end up together or apart, you're going to be communicating over the kids and other matters. You are no longer going to accept x, y, and z (for example, raised voice, vulgar language). Will she agree to that? When those things happen, say, you'll let her know you need to end the conversation and come back to it later. Ask her if there are any rules she'd like to have with regard to your behavior in an argument so that she also doesn't become frustrated and the conversation doesn't become unproductive. This will constitute a verbal contract about how you'll communicate during a disagreement. If she does x, y, or z you do what you said and end the conversation. Not in a punitive way, but as a rule you both agreed to. If you have a disagreement where she stays respectful and calm, compliment and thank her for showing respect.

In my situation, I thought I was the innocent victim. After we were asked to think of our rules for "fair fighting," my rule for H was respectful tone/no sarcasm. His rule for me was don't change the subject and don't ignore what he's saying. I had to become humble and admit to myself that I wasn't such an innocent victim. My habit of ignoring might have started as a defense mechanism but it became more of an act of disrespect over time. One of my 180s is to really listen and show that I heard.

What you might try - imagine a protective barrier that her hurtful words bounce off. Be the adult, set the boundary and walk away when talk is unproductive. Imagine that she's a toddler having a tantrum when she yells and screams.

I'm wishing you the best. It sounds like you have done amazing things in your career - don't forget you are that same person. You're going through a hard time but you are still you. Do more of the things that make you feel strong and centered.

Adinva

So I am 99% that the relationship just became physical. She texted saying she was going to stay at the campus library late (she's complained multiple times that she can't study there). Then our nanny quit tonight so I texted W and told her. I am leaving town tomorrow on business. Instead of calling she asked me what time I am leaving tomorrow.

Under normal circumstances she would freak out and call me and it's pretty obvious she's with OM.

Am feeling really pretty low. But I have come to the conclusion that I am not moving out or short selling the house. The equity belongs to the kids and I am not going to let it go poof. So I am currently leaning towards setting a boundary when I get back in town, telling her I am not OK with her having an affair when we are under the same roof and she either needs to break it off or move out.

I realize this is not quite in line with DR and DB but I need to be true to my heart and as screwed up as I am and as many mistakes as I've made, it would not be right to just roll over and play dead.

Thanks everyone for listening and for your support.

BTW - the fact that she could see that I was actually changing and still moved forward just lost all my respect for her. Regardless of how poorly I treated her and what a Nice Guy Syndromer I was, everyone deserves a second chance. So many people here have asked if I really want to save the marriage. I really really did for my kids but now it will take a miracle for her to regain my respect. At this point I think I am leaning towards not saving it.

Nope. Not everyone deserves a second chance. You just feel that way because you feel like the victim. Stop having expectations. You can't "expect" her to feel a certain way any more than she can expect you to do something.

The faster you come to that understanding, the faster you'll be able to figure out what to do.

Originally Posted By: calidad

So I am 99% that the relationship just became physical. She texted saying she was going to stay at the campus library late (she's complained multiple times that she can't study there). Then our nanny quit tonight so I texted W and told her. I am leaving town tomorrow on business. Instead of calling she asked me what time I am leaving tomorrow.

Under normal circumstances she would freak out and call me and it's pretty obvious she's with OM.

Am feeling really pretty low. But I have come to the conclusion that I am not moving out or short selling the house. The equity belongs to the kids and I am not going to let it go poof.

glad you see this^^^

So I am currently leaning towards setting a boundary when I get back in town, telling her I am not OK with her having an affair when we are under the same roof and she either needs to break it off or move out.

I realize this is not quite in line with DR and DB but I need to be true to my heart and as screwed up as I am and as many mistakes as I've made, it would not be right to just roll over and play dead.

I don't know what to say to this^^. It's a DB site. We are pro-m, but not at all costs. I get that. But what do you want us for?

You want us to validate your refusal to use the DB way or the way you misconstrue it or what? And have you actually READ the books??

Thanks everyone for listening and for your support.

Slow down, Take a breath. Decide NOTHING right now b/c it's your wounded pride deciding and that's not a good place to make choices from. Call a DB coach or a pro-m mc or someone who is in favor of the m.

And please don't ignore all the other things here about what YOU CAN control, ie YOU.

You still have to do that work...

Originally Posted By: calidad

BTW - the fact that she could see that I was actually changing and still moved forward just lost all my respect for her. Regardless of how poorly I treated her and what a Nice Guy Syndromer I was, everyone deserves a second chance. So many people here have asked if I really want to save the marriage. I really really did for my kids but now it will take a miracle for her to regain my respect. At this point I think I am leaning towards not saving it.

I practiced criminal law for 3 years and NO, not everyone deserves a second chance.

If my h beat me, he would not get a second shot at my face.

If he did that to one of our kids, he would not deserve a 2nd chance.

BUT THE IRONY/HYPOCRISY HERE, IS YOU WON'T GIVE HER A SECOND CHANCE...

to repeat for emphasis so YOU see what I'm pointing out to YOU

Originally Posted By: calidad

BTW - the fact that she could see that I was actually changing and still moved forward just lost all my respect for her. Regardless of how poorly I treated her and what a Nice Guy Syndromer I was, everyone deserves a second chance. So many people here have asked if I really want to save the marriage. I really really did for my kids but now it will take a miracle for her to regain my respect. At this point I think I am leaning towards not saving it.

speaking of second chances...

when you say "everyone deserves one", you just mean YOU deserve one,

or "everyone" BUT HER?

and don't over reach with the "nice guy syndrome" b/c there are a lot of other behaviors here of yours that are not so nice.

Conflict avoidant is often the euphemism for cowardly or passive aggressive.

And Her affair, IF IT IS ONE is just the easy way out for you.

That way, you won't have to work on YOU. You can point at HER and say "See? It's HER! She is WRONG and I am RIGHT...and we are not married...."

DBing isn't about who is "right," but about learning to be happy together.

and if all couples chose the path of blaming and not forgiving, no one would reconcile or learn REAL forgiveness, b/c

what YOU seem to forgive, is only what is easy to forgive.

That ain't the test of love my friend...

and if you want to talk about her not giving YOU a second chance for the years of your mistreating her...then

look in the mirror & ask about second chances you are willing to give.

I know it hurts - I do.

But don't forget the basics here. What do you KNOW? How'd you get here?

What do YOU own? No matter what you still own that!

And What do you WANT?

and are you confusing pride/ego with self respect?

There's a crucial difference. Learn it BEFORE you act.

I am willing to give her as many chances as it takes. But right now she wants to have her cake and eat it to. She wants to keep living in the home, allow me to take care of the kids, work and pay the mortgage while she goes out and has the affair. I know it's not about what's fair, it's about us both being happy.

My instinct at this point says to tell her about what I have discovered about myself...that I am a Mr. Nice Guy and what that means and that now I understand why I did to her what I did. NOt to try and sway her but she deserves to know that I now really understand not just what I did to hurt her for so long by WHY I did it. At the same, time, in my heart I feel she needs to choose. Either stay with me and the kids or move out and have her affair. The way it is right now is not good for me, her or the kids.

To be clear, when I said "Nice Guy Syndrome" I mean the disorder described in the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and you're right - passive aggressive, manipulative, angry, doormat - all very accurate characteristics of who i've been the last 5 years.

I know it sounds like pride to set a boundary on the affair, but it's not. It's dignity and it's also severe concern for her health. What she's doing is killing her. She's down to 100 pounds, is sleeping 3 hours a night and is headed for Anorexia. If I don't do something now she is going to end up in the hospital.

I have her mom staying here now hoping she can help get her to eat (she says she doesn't have time to eat!).

BTW - how good a guy can the OM be? He dates this married mother of 2 and watches her go from 127 lbs to 100 lbs in 4 weeks and could give a fig? Any one with any compassion would end it before she has a heart attack.

Now she calls me up (i am out of town on business) and says we need to sell the house and move into a cheaper rental until she finishes school and then figure out our next move after that.

So I think it's an opening to set a boundary and confront her without an ultimatum. I can tell her that's fine if you break off the EA but if not then we'll be renting two places.

Hello Calidad,

I'm glad you have recognized the "Nice Guy" routine. Seems like you have identified with yourself. Here is the kicker though...

You have to FIX YOUR behavior. You have to show that you are changing. You really have to understand, that your W will not trust you until she see's you changing once and for all. THIS takes SERIOUS amounts of time. Time that you may or may not have. DO NOT BOTHER TELLING HER. SHOW HER.

You have to change for you and not so much worry about dropping an Ultimatum RIGHT NOW. Seriously, with EA/PA can it really get worse at this moment? Don't focus too much on enforcing this information just yet...take some time and soak it in. In the mean time just be distant and BETTER yourself. Don't worry too much about enforcing a boundary when you have SO MUCH to do for yourself.

I truly believe in showing your best self and getting acquainted with YOU. Once you do this, Boundary setting and what's BEST for you will make everything much smoother. I think you of all people can identify extremely bad behavior, but until you handle them correctly just play it day by day until you grasp EVERYTHING. Then think about setting an Ultimatum.

Read DR...if you already have...do it again. Just my opinion. It's all about doing EVERYTHING differently.

Seriously your evidence of it getting physical is circumstantial at best.

You'll most likely never truly know, and you'll have to just live with that or move on.

As for all this rage that's not what being integrated is about. You are still having one gigantic victim puke. You worked so hard in your mind for this marriage, and she is not meeting her end of the bargain so you are in a rage.

Not being an NG is NOT about turning into a jerk. Ultimatums are still manipulative and completely futile if you can't follow through.

I don't recommend making any moves until you know for sure it's physical. If it's not physical yet, your actions will surely drive her to it.

You keep telling her, break it off or else!!

Let me save you some time, SHE WILL ALWAYS PICK ELSE

She'd drive off a cliff if it was between that and your M.

Your words are empty to her, all she sees is the manipulative person you are. The more you rage the better OM looks. He's prince charming, you're that jerk that pretends to be nice.

Sounds to me like the affair is as good as guaranteed. It's just a matter of time for it to get physical.

Don't you see that in many ways she is having this affair to spite you, to get back at you, and YES TO HURT YOU.

Why do you think she's so careless with letting you know about the EA. She wants you to know, either consciously or subconsciously.

Yes it sounds weak to leave it alone, and let her pursue it, but guess what you are powerless to stop it. You can only accelerate it. Fighting with her about it will only drive her to his arms.

By her latest actions, it's easy to tell she is in full WAW mode. She's ready to run. She WANTS to divorce. She's merely waiting for the right time. It happens time and time again here.

1. Bomb dropped
2. EA/PA discovered
3. DB period
4. Separation/divorce filed
5. Spouse returns/ stays with OM/ or finds other OM's

It's so predictable it's sad. There are variations, but it's mostly true.

So what to do GAL, or in [edited by dbmod: reference not recommended nor allowed] terms learn how to meet your own needs. You are still clearly hurting, we get that really. You need to be at the point where you are happy with or without her. That's what being integrated is about. Meet your own needs, don't rely on her. Once you reach that you'll have the confidence needed to win her back, or any other woman for that matter.

You are actively competing with OM whether you like it or not. In time he will show his flaws. What are you doing to look good once he does?

This will take time, whether you wait it out is up to you. We will understand if you don't.

Wow, good stuff GB...read this over and over Cali.

I need to as well.

I completely agree with you. If I had the time I could ride it a little longer to work on myself before confronting her. I am admittedly still angry and still unstable. I go back and forth between feeling good, like my old self and feeling sick. So clearly I am not ready.

However, she wants to talk Friday about seriously selling the house. It's a long story but we lose $200K in equity if we sell it right now versus in 2013. She wants to move into a rental, quit her job so she can go to school full time and she wants us all to move together and ME support all of us during that time.

So she's forcing the issue. I don't see how I have a choice. I need to tell her that's fine but the OM has to go. I mean, how could she ever respect me if she looks me the eye and says fund my extramarital affair and I actually do it?

Alright just dug up your old thread and read that she point blank told you OM existed and that it WILL get physical. This is a very important piece of information. I bet alot of folks didn't know this here (that's why it's recommended to stick to one thread)

Here's my advice, but wait for others to chime in.

Ok so OM is real and she threw it in your face. Now she wants you to lose money on the house and pay for school. I agree not cool. I (along with other folks I presume) was under the impression that she was still playing the just friends card.

IF she really did tell you that OM is real and that it WILL get physical. It is fair to ask her before deciding to majorly sacrifice for her if she is still seeing OM. She could be too proud to admit that she wants to work on the M and dropped OM and this is her way of letting you know. If on the other hand she says yes then CALMLY inform her that you will not live in a marriage like that and will file as soon as you can.

Expect things to turn UGLY, don't add any ugliness yourself. Let me rephrase that things WILL turn ugly. Yes this is LRT.

It is not to be taken lightly. The key is to not threaten, accuse, or create ultimatums. You are NOT manipulating her. You are telling her that she clearly chooses OM and if she does you will not stick around. Then guess what... You file. If she still doesn't leave OM guess what... You get divorced and move on.

Now there's a chance as all this goes on she snaps out of it, sees how much you changed, and how much she stands to lose and comes back.

Don't count on it. Change for you, and only you. If it wins her back, good if it doesn't oh well.

Thanks Green Blue - and to others, YES she did indeed tell me almost 3 weeks ago that she is in an EA but that it WILL turn physical. She was not grey about this. She very specifically said she couldn't spend 15 months seeing this person every day and not act on it and that she was not going to drop out of school.

I have suspected that it already was physical when she told me but she was too ashamed and prideful so this was her way of being able to say we were 'separated' before anything actually happened.

So that is truly my dillema. OM is real. I have been promised that she will be a cheat sooner or later and now i am asked to sell the house so she can quit her job and just focus on school and see the kids a bit more (because now she doesn't at all). She expects me to pay 100% of all bills while she in school. But -- obviously this just gives her more time to see OM. So I can't see how she would ever respect me if I actually went through with selling our house, taking a $200K loss and then funding a rental - all the while she is having an affair.

Originally Posted By: FaithnAK

Hello Calidad,

I'm glad you have recognized the "Nice Guy" routine. Seems like you have identified with yourself. Here is the kicker though...

You have to FIX YOUR behavior. You have to show that you are changing. You really have to understand, that your W will not trust you until she see's you changing once and for all. THIS takes SERIOUS amounts of time. Time that you may or may not have. DO NOT BOTHER TELLING HER. SHOW HER.

You have to change for you and not so much worry about dropping an Ultimatum RIGHT NOW. Seriously, with EA/PA can it really get worse at this moment? Don't focus too much on enforcing this information just yet...take some time and soak it in. In the mean time just be distant and BETTER yourself. Don't worry too much about enforcing a boundary when you have SO MUCH to do for yourself.

I truly believe in showing your best self and getting acquainted with YOU. Once you do this, Boundary setting and what's BEST for you will make everything much smoother. I think you of all people can identify extremely bad behavior, but until you handle them correctly just play it day by day until you grasp EVERYTHING. Then think about setting an Ultimatum.

Read DR...if you already have...do it again. Just my opinion. It's all about doing EVERYTHING differently.

this is great stuff. And not telling us vital info b/c you post elsewhere is why we like ONE thread...but some LBSers want to "shop" for answers and only hear what they want to hear.

SO READ this^^^^ post again and again.

Stop anticipating HER moves and your counter moves.

Instead of strategizing for expected/planned battle, and "winning",

Be a better man and BE the better choice.

No matter what SHE does...or how "fair" you don't think it is.

Unfair? How about Africa...my real point is that in HER mind you pushed her into his arms so you have nothing to complain about now...

right or wrong, it's HER perception that counts and no bludgeoning her with your "logical arguments" is going to help.

I think It'll annoy.

So just Deal with what is.

Its not your job to be the judge and jury and executioner and the sooner you Stop making this about winning, the better.

IF you really have read the DIv Remedy book, please do so again. Your approach just seems like it's from... elsewhere.

But I'm very sorry for your pain and stress.

I know it's very tough, but it does get better. IN TIME.

Originally Posted By: 25

what YOU seem to forgive, is only what is easy to forgive.

This ain't easy brother.

You want your marriage?

Why?

What are you prepared to do for it if you are not assured it can be saved?

Tit for tat?

Is that the way it goes?

When you took your vows did you say?:

I will love and honor you all the days of my life

But

If you get scared.

If you lose your way.

If you are so scared you run away.

I won't.

?

This is about YOU.

And what YOU believe. and value.

We are not here to convince you save your M.

YOU MUST DECIDE.

So what sort of man are you? Or better. What sort of man do you want to be?

OK. So she is going out tonight and not even hiding the fact that she's going to be with him. She said "I will be coming home late so don't call the police". Pretty cold.

So I am 99% this is what I am going to tell her tomorrow:

I want to talk to you about a few things and I want to make sure we are communicating and I am letting you know my true feelings and I am not misleading you.

I want you to know that I have been absolutely devastated by your affair and I have been going through a very deep process of self-reflection and change. I deeply understand now this person I slowly became over the last 6 years and more important WHY and frankly I hate the man I was during this time. I have something called �Mr Nice Guy Syndrome� which is anything but nice. Nice guys are in fact passive aggressive manipulators who restructure their lives around pleasing their wife and basically cannot set boundaries, admit mistakes or stand up for themselves. Most of this stems from deeply buried abandonment issues and childhood trauma. There are many other details but the bottom line is this is not who I was when you met me but there were deep down traits that surfaced and took over as I started feeling more and more pressure starting with Subculture.

On a daily basis I go through a range of emotions � I feel so much guilt and anger towards myself for what I have put you through and all of the love you showed me that I could not feel or return. I also feel despair and deep sadness, anger and betrayal - but also on and off I feel a deep calm and much more confidence than I have felt in years � I am really for the first time in years seeing things very clearly and I know what I want for you and for the kids and that is to be happy.

I have been searching my soul so deeply for answers and what I have come to is I am deeply in love with you and I may be forever � but I can�t let that or the fear of losing you cloud my judgment or push me into manipulating you - its time to let you go and move forward with my own life. Just because I want you to go to counseling and I believe our marriage can be saved � you have to want to try too and you don�t. It is far too painful to continue living together and even if you broke off the affair, I would be conflicted as you are going to be in school for a year and the chances are slim that it will not spark back up.

So I don�t know what is going to happen. At this point I really need to weigh out whether it is good idea at all to continue living together. It�s not good for you, me or the kids to stay in limbo as we can�t be a pretend family�either we are a family or we are not.

So my heart keeps telling me that really the best thing to do is get rid of the house, move forward with the divorce and get two separate places.

I don�t like it nor do I want it and I know our kids will be screwed up for life�but at the same time they will be even more screwed up if we continue to live together in limbo and I can�t deny my feelings. I have thought about just a separation but the realty is there is no such thing as a separation when one partner has moved on and is in an affair�it�s just delaying the inevitable. On the other hand, my therapist has said there are more people that reconcile after an affair than not so she is torn on what to do also. So as I said � I am in process and I don�t know what�s going to happen � but I don�t want to mislead you into thinking we are definitely going to be sharing a rental when we sell the house.

What is your intention behind saying all of that?

How much of that do you think is going to register after "I want you to know that I have been absolutely devastated by your affair and I have been going through a very deep process of self-reflection and change." ?

Have you changed much about yourself?

Hard for people to resist things that aren't directed at them.

Easy for people to resist stuff that people "tell them."

My intention is to tell her the truth. It is not healthy or good for her, me or the kids to sell our house, move into a smaller apartment so she can quit her job while she is actively dating. She's made it clear she is not coming back so I have to let her go.

It says in DR's chapter on infidelity that it's OK to tell W about how the affair has made you feel. You think this will drown out the message? Maybe I should not say anything about that?

I have changed a ton. In the past I would have been far too scared to confront her and tell her how I feel. I would have gone right ahead and sold the house and then dropped a bomb on her that I wasn't going to support her after the fact (I was a chicken$hit). Now I truly see that the only chance of saving this marriage is to split up. The only way I am going to return to the confident, funny and thoughtful man that I was is to heal and I can't do it while she is going on dates.

Actually I was thinking the whole discussion of 'nice guy syndrome' is extraneous. Words only go so far.

Tell her how you feel - sure. But leave it at that. No need to go into too much details. Unless there is another message you are trying to convey?

Have you spoken with a L yet? If you are going to take this path, you probably should know what to expect before you start.

No need to say that you are a "nice guy" she'll just roll her eyes. Just tell her you have been reflecting a lot and that "things will change around here".

She'll roll her eyes at that too but a little less. The key is action. Words mean nothing to WAW's. To an NG's WAW they're just fighting words.

I know it seems that things are moving fast, but step one needs to be telling her how you feel. Not in an upset kind of way, but matter of fact. Once you tell her this have a plan of action and stick to it.

Ex: "I don't like it that you yell at me for the economy going bad and killing the business that was out of my control. I will not tolerate it. Talk to me once you want to calmly talk."

Then ACTUALLY walk away!!!

So she slept with the OM the other night, rubbed it in my face and when I confronted her, was totally unapologetic. I told her it's not OK and that we are selling the house and getting two separate places. She is delusional and wants to stay here together for a year while she is in this other relationship. I am not backing down. I told her I am talking to divorce lawyers now and I have not made a decision but when we are wrapped up with the house, if she is still unwilling to break off the affair, then I will be filing. I told her that if she does break it off, I MIGHT consider staying here IF she is willing to go to counseling and if I can somehow find a way to trust her again.

So there you have it. 13 years of blood, sweat and tears, amazing memories and adventures, love, romance, intimate moments, travel, building a house, our amazing kids and what would have been an incredible future together - flushed.

Originally Posted By: aeolianchaos

What is your intention behind saying all of that?

How much of that do you think is going to register after "I want you to know that I have been absolutely devastated by your affair and I have been going through a very deep process of self-reflection and change." ?

Have you changed much about yourself?

Hard for people to resist things that aren't directed at them.

Easy for people to resist stuff that people "tell them."

cal

I'm sorry for your pain b/c I know it's real and stinks.

But in the above post, you madee a long ass speech that you don't really mean, b/c

then you undermine all the claims of change w/your actions...

b/c what you really really want us to say and what you are going to do anyhow

is take the easier route.

The inward journey of reflection & self discovery route you began, was simply too hard a road for you to stay on...

Isn't it just easier to SAY you don't "want" a divorce,

and then go ahead and get a divorce,

blame her for an affair (which you know you played a part in)

and move on?

isn't this kind of what you've been waiting for?

I mean, Painful as it is, it's easier than doing the really gut wrenching work, for months, isn't it?

That's not what it's about (and I shortened my speech significantly). My therapist who is a follower of Michelle and a leader in her own right felt this was the beyond the last resort action needed - if there's anything left in her soul then she might get jarred awake. Just because I played a part in the affair doesn't give her the right to continue it and to flaunt it - that's just cruel.

But it is not right or moral to openly have an affair while you are living together as a family. She needs to choose - the affair or the family. If she chooses the affair and D, and comes back after her heart gets broken, I would gladly and compassionately consider making ammends. I still do love her deeply but this is just where we are - there is no other course left.

talking about what is right or moral

will get you nowhere with her and comes off as being "right" and righteous

and won't help you here or with her.

What are you working on in YOU

so that IF she were to want to come home, she could believe that

marriage to you

from this day forward,

would be different or better?

Isn't that all you control now?

Calidad,

What happens if she doesn't 'wake up' from what you think is her 'daze'?

Is it possible that there is something very real in her that is leading her to have the affair?

No one put a gun to her head and made her do what she is doing. This is true.

You don't have to live with this if you don't want to - certainly its a viable option to not do anything to support her choice. That is your choice.

Forcing another choice on her, however, is probably not going to get you what you want.

cal,

it isn't that I disagree with your choice and it is YOUR choice...

it's the tone you have taken with and about her most of this time.

You are So angry that I felt things were doomed when I first read your post.

I thought, "here's a h who wants to punish his w for him feeling bad about himself, but he'll probably blame MLC or OM" and you've tried to do both

w/some lip service to your flaws...

You know if things are going to end, okay but does that mean YOUR WORK STOPS?

See I don't think so. I think you kick it up a step.

I can see advantages to not seeing her every day for sure. Way easier to GAL for one.

But don't wallow in the A b/c I don't think that is the cause of this so much as the symptom.

Make sense?

Yes, I know. If I thought there were some real chance she was still deep inside willing to give our marriage another chance, I would maybe not draw such a hard line. But I looked her in the eye and she told me she would be happy if I met someone and started dating. She meant it. She is too far gone and is not coming back. So at this stage the truth is the ONLY way I can really begin working on myself is for her to either end her affair or leave. I will not be able to make much progress if I have to continue watching her get all dolled up to go sleep with someone else. It's toxic.
So she didn't give me a choice. Although she still has the choice of ending the affair and staying.

As far as dictating what is moral, you're right - but I am now starting to feel she is actually amoral and doesn't have much of a sense of right and wrong.

What I am doing to work on myself is I am learning to stand up for myself and directly state what I feel and what I want without apologizing, without backtracking and without passive aggressive comments, tone or undertone. My heart told me we can't live like this and now I am making sure we don't.

Lets cut the guy some slack his world is upside down. I do agree with everyone that you are too angry right now. Cut the self righteousness and protect yourself and your family. Don't turn this into a fight separate and divorce but do it amicably.

She is doing all this because she knows she can. Because she sees him as a wimpish NG, and knows he will bend backwards for her because he wants every chance to save the M.

She is angry at him. Angry of his victim pukes (which we see constantly here). Angry of years of him using all "he does for the family" to manipulate people. Unlike other WAW's she hasn't shown one ounce of consideration, she point blank has told him she intends to drain him financially while she gets her degree and leave afterwards. She probably sees this as her right after putting up with years of his passive aggressiveness.

Remember "nice guys" are not so nice in the end, and you have shown that in flying colors.

Nice guys shy away from conflict, and instead express their anger in other ways. I can guarantee you she feels entitled to treat him like dirt.

I think the key here is to from now on stand up for your principles while using DB techniques to validate and diffuse.

"I understand you don't feel like you will ever love me again, I understand how I drove you to this. Believe me I don't want to be like that anymore, but what you are doing deeply hurts me, and I cannot live day by day living for you while you live for another I think it's best we end this here now, and separate our things by what is right by law."

Expect her to curse you and kick and scream, but just keep diffusing.

Protect yourself, last thing you need is for her to buy OM a new car with your dwindling assets.

While I too feel you are still WAY TOO ANGRY, and not working enough on yourself. I also think her blatant flaunting of this is too much. I feel this is more about her using this A as a weapon to get back at him for years of victim pukes. Sounds like in her anger she is willing to destroy him, herself and the children's future.

So here's my bullet points:

1. For the love of god change. DB, GAL, tell her calmly how you feel, no more stealth contracts no more passive agressiveness, meet your own needs so you can radiate positive energy. Trip her up by taking away her reasons to rage at you.

2. Time for her to wear the big girl pants. She wants financial support from you, and emotional and physical support from OM. Remember without anger and dispassionately let her know the current situation hurts you, and you cannot go on living like this. Don't say anything about your manly pride or whatever, just say it hurts too much, and follow through.

3. Take it slow: yes let her wear the big girl pants but don't toss her in the street. Maybe start by separating the accounts down the middle. Get someone in the bank to certify that it was truly 50/50. When she hits the roof, let her know that you are no longer a couple and that you will do what is fair and right since you two are separated under the same roof. Make sure you provide spousal support, and say that as long as you two are married you will help her and the kids by providing them with a "fair" amount of money. If she gets mad, say that you two are separated, and you need to think about your future. Give it a week or two for her to process this, then let her know you got a lawyer. Remind her it's not to take advantage of her, and that you will meet your duties, but you need to figure this out, because as we said the sitch just hurts too much. Give her some more time and then maybe even file. So and so forth. The key IMHO is to do this as amicably and gentlemanly as possible, "I'm sorry it has to be this way, but I can't leave with this much pain". Give her time to cool down, and think things through. Let her rage subside, so she can rationally think this through.

IF you do this calmly, and compassionately (not throw her out to the street), AND you yourself change there's is a small chance she'll realize that her husband is no longer a jerk, and is a great catch, and her actions are causing YOU to become WAS and leave HER.

I think the common case here is either

A. The WAW thinks the grass is greener on the other side and runs away. The LBS adds fertilizer to his side, WAW realizes it's not greener on the other side, and sees how nice her old side is now and comes back.

B. The WAW for her own reasons yearns the other side, so she secretly crosses over to see what it's like. (this is the WAW's that at least cover up their affairs) the LBS catches wind of this and makes his side greener, making the WAW decide to stay, sometimes the WAW gets caught and runs away and becomes a type A (as stated above).

Your W is trying to straddle both lawns.

In your case you STILL need to apply the fertilizer, which is what everyone here is trying to tell you!!! She has made up her mind that she will cross over to the other side, so let her know it's too painful to keep her here.

It's all about timing if you push her out kicking and screaming she will push back just out of spite. Gently and slowly cut her out of your life. Go dark in your own home if you have to, get out and do things, make time for you, have her watch the kids while YOU go out with the guys. Juggling the
Kids is part of single parenthood right?

When the issues come up, it's not because she chose the affair! It's because she feels the marriage will not work out. there's a big difference the affair is a symptom, of a failed marriage, she knows this, heck she probably feels you "forced" her to it. Make sure you understand this, as blaming her for the affair will just add fuel to the fire

It's not because of the affair, it's because she feels you two won't work out. Ok enough rant.

I think greenblue really has something here, great plan for you to make use of. I would add in addition to dividing everything up 50/50 at the bank, to cancel all joint credit cards.

vc

OK. So we had a huge fight last night about a bunch of things related to the affair.

It ended in probably the most honest and productive conversation we've had in years. The cliffnotes are:

She wishes more than anything to be able to turn her feelings off for the OM. If someone could tell her how, she would.

She has grown over the last 5 years and is a totally different person while I have stagnated (true).

She is not in love with me and says she didn't really feel like she was cheating because in her mind she left the relationship a year ago and is totally over it. To the point where if I dated someone tomorrow it would have zero effect on her and she would probably be happy for me.

We started dating when she was 21 and she was married at 24. She now questions if the feeling she had for me were ever true love and maybe she just jumped into marriage too early and we are really not compatible (I don't agree).

So I told her I thought the best thing was to sell the house and get two separate places. I said we have kids and we are married and we've never once tried to fix our relationship so it is worth at least one try - she finally agreed to seeing an MFT but not until December.

She has also agreed to see my therapist who agrees with DB and Michelle Weiner-Davis' approach for several "separation sessions" and maybe for individual.

So for now I am going to truly focus on me and start working through my own issues. If she comes back and we can rekindle something then great - if not then at least we can have closure instead of being endless 'roomates'.

Thanks everyone for helping me work through this extremely painful and life changing process.

Calidad
It's painful but it's progress, trust me. You need time and space to become an integrated man. She needs time and space to think and to put on the big girl pants. Bottomline separations can be very good if done right. Just some observations.

1. It seems counter productive but don't let your W know about your changes once you separate. Yes seems counter productive, but reminding them that "you are changing". Is way more counter productive. She'll notice on her own whether it's through strength and cheerfulness in your voice, or by seeing you thinner and better dressed the FEW times you do interact with her.

2. Ok so she checked out, and is in a EA/PA. Still no permission to get your own OW. My BIL did and it doomed any chance at reconciliation.

3. Get ready to GAL like there's no tomorrow you'll need it. Especially because she will be running the WAW version of GAL. Expect lots of new friends in her life as she pushes away old friends that are "pro marriage" and finds new ones that support her choices. Going out to bars all night with recent divorcees is a common WAW GAL theme.

Bottomline this is her time to find out if the grass is truly greener on the other side, it's your time to add some more fertilizer, and if you want her back don't put up a fence.

OK - well I didn't tell you the whole story. She also said that she doesn't want to have these feelings for OM (but she can't control them) and she would give ANYTHING to not have them anymore as it would be infinitely easier for her.

She looked me in the eye and promised that as long as we are under this roof she is not going to act on it again and will not go to any more mixers until we sell and split up (i didn't ask her, she volunteered it). Do you think she's lying? I told her it would destroy our friendship and make a very tough co-parenting situation for the next 20 years if she breaks her promise and that I would rather she leave now or we just dump the house and get separate places than to have her hide her affair. She keeps saying "it's not an affair".

Another issue I need to address and it may be counterproductive. I feel I should write her a letter to address it. She told me that that one of her issues is she feels I am a shallow person, my relationships are surface and essentially that I lack depth or the ability to nurture a relationship.

This is so unbelievably false. Before we met, I had very deep and meaningful friendships with a number of people. We had an incredibly deep and warm relationship, even though she can�t remember it. I have obviously shut myself off from her n recent years � but frankly, I am a soulful and deeply romantic person, an idealist and a musician.

I consciously chose many years ago to only allow a certain number of people to get close to me as I would rather have a small group of close friends that I know I can trust and who are good, honest people then hundreds of acquaintance relationships.

Starting in 2003 (maybe even a little before then), we both stopped seeing our friends � hers and mine. I stopped nurturing my relationships and frankly I did it because I believed we should do things as a couple and she didn�t really want to do much of anything. In hindsight, I should have been living for myself but I just wasn�t.

While I have deep regrets and frankly don�t like the person I have become and I hate what I have done to you, I also know who I am deep inside and who I was before - and a lack of depth or heart is NOT one of my flaws � quite the opposite, my passion, depth and loyalty to those I�ve let in and are probably some of my biggest strengths.

If I wrote her something like that is it damaging? I just feel I cannot allow her to fundamentally redefine my core personality as she is using that to rationalize why she no longer loves me.

Ok it could be one of two things.

1. Date with OM went terrible and she is truly regretful. On top of that you set a boundary, and rather than ending up on the street she has decided to respect your marriage. Congratulations.

2. She still is head over heals over OM which she admits and wants to continue to pursue, but actually respects you enough to lie to your face. Yeah you read that right. See in the past she saw you as weak and a pushover. That's why she flaunted it in your face, she was pretty sure you wouldn't do anything. Now that you took a stand she could end up in the street. So now she respects your strength enough to lie to you. Twisted huh?

Either way expect her to test your resolve in different ways in the coming months.

This is a rather tame example but it's a way my W tested me:

In the past when going out for dinner my W would get indecisive, she'd pick a place, I would agree, and she would change her mind immediately. This would go on forever until she would get mad at ME! That's because I was being "nice" (or rather weak).

When I decided to stop these behaviors one of the simple things I did is started to actually make decisions and put my foot down on where to eat. My W could not believe I was finally not being wishy washy for her and would repeatedly try to see if I changed my mind. In other words she was testing me.

Expect lots of testing in the future over simple small things, and even some big things. Don't be surprised if she blatantly starts texting OM in front of you just to see if she can get away with it again.

This might be a good time to mention to NOT snoop. It really doesn't help and just hurts your chances of reconciliation when you get caught. If you find out something hurtful it'll just make things harder too.

Post what you plan to do for GAL especially if it relates to [edited by dbmod, reference not recommended nor allowed] Go out with the guys, have a few drinks responsibly, and unwind a little. Take up a sport if possible, I almost started MMA just to get my manly edge back.

As for her redefining your core personality she already has and will continue to. All you can do is listen carefully for the traits you do have and should fix. (I'd start with any NG traits she complains about). Any traits you don't, no talking will ever make her see otherwise you have to show her.

It's good that you started verbally establishing boundaries, now it's time to physically uphold them.

Calidad,

I think GB gave you some rock solid advice, so I don't have a ton to add to it.

Actions do always speak louder than words - especially with someone who knows you as well as your W.

So a week has gone by and it's been both painful and uplifting. I have been GALing and feeling much more like my own self. Been getting things off my list (one of my biggest problems) and have been really focused on my issues. I am no longer speaking to W so I have been working on my issues with others - friends and family that I have also mistreated. I am become far more in touch with myself, much stronger and much more aware of other's feelings.

She on the other hand sat me down last Wednesday night and gave me a heart filled speech about how much she cared for the kids, how she'd never lie to me and how she wasn't going to start lying now. Then she said she'd Ice'd her A and planned on keeping it on ice until we sell the house - then she would see where we stand. She also agreed to a couples session with my therapist.

Well, less than 24 hours the nanny quit and she flew into a rage aimed at me - screaming like a maniac in front of the kids. I told her we were no longer together and she had no right to talk to me like that and if she didn't find a way to speak like an adult, then she would be handling the kids solo tonight. That was all she needed. My therapist texted me and told me to apologize just to keep her from cancelling appt so I turned the other cheek and did. As an aside, therapist thinks she exhibits Borderline Personality Disorder symptoms. The Anorexia is also a sign of severe instability.

In any case, it was too late. This gave her the excuse she needed and for 3 nights in a row, she flagrantly went out and screwed the OM (coming back late each night).

So now she's a liar too. At this stage there is no point in sitting here as an observer of someone else's love affair. I plan to use the couples session to tell her she's got to move out until we can sell the house and LEAVE ME THE KIDS. If she doesn't, I will be forced to sell the house now and lose $200K in extra equity. I am also exploring renting the house (which prevents us from having a $200K pool of money to fight over).

I know I am off the track as far as DB is concerned but there are some relationships that really aren't worth saving. My therapist is a follower of DB and Michelle and she is conflicted also. She said the behavior is sadistic, amoral and dishonorable. Sadly, I now am beginning to believe that we never really had the magical, romantic and passionate partnership we once did...maybe we were just fooling ourselves and reality was something we just didn't want to see.

Thank you for the community members here who took time from their busy schedule to listen and comment. Your comments helped me through a really dark time when I felt I was drowning. God bless you.

I really think that there should be a whole book addressing the spouses of nice guys.

Years of being married to guys that will do anything, and put up with everything to keep an R create spouses that feel like they can do anything, and behave outrageously, because their tantrums, and self destructive behaviors have in the past gotten them what they wanted. Eventually they lose themselves in this dynamic and change for the worse. IMHO this latest self destructive move is an attempt to punish you and get your attention. In a very sick way she probably thinks it'll spur you to get a nanny.

Of course after years of using abuse to get you to do what they want, they lose all sense of proportionality. As I had warned you as you establish boundaries expect for her to lash out as she loses all control over you.

Some spouses, gladly accept the new dynamic, they're just glad the passive agressiveness and stealth contracts are gone. Some on the other hand cannot handle using anything but nastiness to communicate and will either leave on their own or follow a path of self destruction in order to get you to leave.

Remember to remain a gentleman, and to keep working on yourself, and don't be surprised if she returns after hitting rock bottom. Although to it seems your W has a very deep bottom, and a very hard floor.

Remember to do what is best for you and your family, not your bruised ego.