Okay, starting a new thread before the previous one gets locked out/archived. If you'd like to catch up on my current situation, go here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2178911#Post2178911So anyway... Thanks guys for your letter edits! Having our son for two weeks more than outweighs the cost & time of flying both of us out to SC just to drop him off. Now I just hope my wife seriously considers the plan.
Okay, email sent to wife. Let the waiting and nervousness begin.
let me post here too, b/c I think I posted on your other soon to be closed, thread.
Good luck. (See my other post if you want, it's a tad longer).
(( ))
To answer your question, 25: I was trying to be compromising with the situation, which however brings me to the latest in the unfolding drama of the week. My wife sent me this email only a few minutes ago (in response to my monthly bill, but not regarding the request for an extra night with our son, or the SC trip...yet):
"Alamo,
In response to your e mail I would like for you to consider a few issues. I am and have been a medical student. I worked two jobs when we were in Abilene, TX. to support us but my medical studies have prevented me from working and producing income. One of the issues during our marriage has been your lack of interest in working and producing income to support us. You even told me that we have to keep E in a daycare so he would not hinder you perusing a job while you were unemployed. Part of the large debt that I personally incurred during our marriage have been to support us and keeping E in a day care. You even went as far as using my government loans to support your parents in Malaysia and make payments on the house you bought back there. That amount is about $4205.00.Although I paid E’s daycare up until separation and paid half up till now I would ask you to pay for the entire amount you have requested. You claim having a job and income which I will not have either until next year sometime. Even if I could pay for entire amounts you requesting the phone termination is your responsibility since you where a rider on my cell phone plan. Toll road fees are simply off set by one of the times you did not work nor received unemployment and I again had to use my school loans to provide you with toll fees. By taking care of this bill you will demonstrate some responsibility offsetting fraction of my college loans that took care of you and your family.
Please reply to me about this and any other issues I have wrote to you in writing.
Wife"
First off, and I say it again (and again), I did not put a gun to her head to get her to use school loans to help my family (who were having financial issues); she was as much in the decision to use the money for those stated reasons as much as I was.
I agree she has a significant amount of debt, but it's interesting she doesn't calculate the part that her peers/classmates, even the married ones whose spouses bring in more income than we ever did, have the same, if not MORE debt than she has. She doesn't see or appreciate the fact that we did pretty good considering that I had no work numerous times, and even when I did, my income was entry-level. We survived by being frugal and careful, mostly thanks to her amazing bookkeeping skills and my stinginess.
I also think that this email from her is perhaps part of the fireworks everyone has been talking about. I mean, it's odd that up to last month, she didn't mind paying for our son's daycare, or toll charges. And the cell phone cancelling fee is for HER phone. She changed over to her parent's family plan after getting a new phone 5 or 6 months ago (and essentially renewing her contract).
All that said, is she giving me an opening here? "Demonstrate some responsibility", she said. Or is she deflecting her own financial responsibility?
All I can say is today could potentially be a LONG day. I hope not, though.
Don't know if it's the letter my wife wrote me last night or the accumulation of the events of the week, but I am STRESSED OUT!
So no reply about your S yet?
So no reply about your S yet?
No siree bob. Per my post on 8/17, I have to contact my lawyer this morning to move forward with reaching out to my wife (via her lawyer) and informing her about the possibility of invoking an automatic child restraining order to keep our son in the state. Unless she's willing to compromise and work with me.
On another, yet similar note, I have been thinking more about my wife's letter that I posted above. I think (a) she's pissed and is trying to put up another defense wall, (b) she has so little respect for me to the point that she thinks I "claim having a job and income" and that she truly still lives in the past, or (c) she's digging herself into a hole by refusing to pay bills that she has been paying since she moved out (essentially signifying an agreement with her responsibility with certain aspects of the bills) - wouldn't the courts look down on this as well?
I don't know the exact legals of it all, but I would imagine whatever happened financially while you were together is irrelevant to the current situation. Don't let her guilt you.
Hey Mike -- how are you doing? Happy Friday to you (and you, the reader).
The quandary I have with her letter is, what's the best way to respond to it, you know what I mean?
UPDATE
My wife sent me this email in response to her SC trip:
"Thanks so much for the suggestion I think that's an excellent compromise. Just let me know if you are going to fly out Friday evening or Saturday morning and I'll purchase tickets for you and E.
Im glad we were able to work together on this, otherwise I wasn't going to go.
Thanks again,
Wife"
Positive, right? Well, I thought so too. Until I inquired from my attorney's office about whether they've made contact with my wife's lawyer, and my attorney said that my wife told her lawyer that she's not planning on taking our son with her, and maybe even not going to SC at all. If I had known of her thoughts, I wouldn't have suggested the 50/50 arrangement, because now I feel like I've enabled my wife to pursue her career and see our son at the same time. Her reality seems pretty rosy right now, at least in my eyes.
The response from your W is a positive. You have to base your decisions on the information you have. I don't think you are enabling her at all. You are demonstrating your willingness to work with her for what is in the best interest of your S.
Doing good, thanks for asking. I agree with what LITB said, you can only act on the information currently available, so dont beat yourself up over it.
So she was bluffing?
Don't worry about enabling her here. You did the right thing based on the information you had. Perhaps a lesson learned.
But what you did show her. Is that your a good guy who put the interest of your S first.
No regrets there.
I agree with all of you about just not beating myself up over what I perceived to be enabling my wife to keep doing what she's doing. It was all circumstance.
CS, not sure what you mean by bluffing -- about her not going to SC, or about going what she told her lawyer?
Well, whether I was the good guy/father or not, my wife sure didn't lose any time trying to discredit me the past couple of evenings. She still thinks she's the better parent because:
a. Maternal instincts trump paternal ones.
b. She's a doctor, therefore she's also a qualified child behaviorist, psychologist, and educationalist.
c. She doesn't give chocolate to our son, unlike the rebellious daddy.
d. When daddy believes that son is behaving according to and is affected by the "situation", so discredits the idea by saying that our son is three years old.
CS, not sure what you mean by bluffing -- about her not going to SC, or about going what she told her lawyer?
About going to SC. Sounded like she told you she was going to go an take S. But was not prepared to actually doing it.
When daddy believes that son is behaving according to and is affected by the "situation", so discredits the idea by saying that our son is three years old.
When daddy believes or when daddy says?
Believing so is your opinion and is fine.
When you tell her this you can guarantee a defensive response.
CS: It's what daddy said actually.
UPDATE 8/21/11
My wife sent me this response to arranging for our son's trip:
"Alamo,
Saturday 9/10 sounds excellent. You can go ahead and purchase a round trip ticket for yourself and then a one way for E to Spartanburg. I know Southwest allows for one way tickets. I need to purchase my return flight one way with E of course. Then that will take care of the splitting E's fares. I was also planning to fly back with E a few days later than originally anticipated. My brother Cody is being deployed overseas and I'd like to take E to see him off and meet his new baby cousin if that's alright.
Wife"
Also, I'm not sure what to respond to/proceed with my wife's refusal to pay for her usual monthly items, such as daycare, toll, etc. I'm thinking that I should send her something like "So does that mean you are not going to pay for these things?", but then keep sending her the bills regardless. At the end of the day, the courts might find this information useful.
Thinking out loud here: I have been wondering lately that perhaps in my case it wouldn't be bad idea for me to be the one who pushes for a divorce. After all, my wife probably thinks I am the same old Alamo clinging on to the old marriage, not wanting to let go. I can practice DB/DRing all I want, but in her eyes, if all she sees is me doing all sorts of changes, yet hangs on to this marriage like it was going out of style... tell me I'm crazy...or not crazy.
BTW, still can't decide what to reply to my wife regarding her refusal to pay bills. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
I so feel you here Alamo.
I don't know what to say though.
Are we crazy or just dedicated and patient?
All depends on perspective.
All depends on perspective.
Yuuuup.
I would say, though, that pushing for divorce would seem more like reverse psychology than a 180. Plus, it probably won't be genuine, so theres a good chance your W will see right through it.
I think if you establish new boundaries and different expectations, it probably creates enough of a "end of the old relationship" feeling that it becomes clear that the times are a changing.
BTW, still can't decide what to reply to my wife regarding her refusal to pay bills. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Well there are 2 ways to look at this issue that I can think of.
1) From a legal standpoint, she should be responsible to cover her half of everything to do with your S. May I ask if it is a significant amount and for how long does she think you should cover these expenses?
2) From a DB'ing standpoint, it appears to me that your W believes it to be more of the same from you. "Typical Alamo taking advantage of me".
So how do you reply to her email to protect yourself legally and continue to demonstrate that you are different? Hmmmm, a bit challenging, however possible.
Maybe something along these lines:
"W,
I understand and respect where you are coming from and if I had to do certain things all over again, I would do them differently.(25's thunder)
Unfortunately, I cannot cover the tolls and daycare in their entirety at this time. I would be grateful to you if we can resolve this issue amicably.
Alamo"
I am sure others can help tweak this. Hopefully this will at least get you started.
Sorry I haven't logged here in awhile. It's been awesome having our son since my wife left for SC. Been staying busy and involved as much as I can.
LITB, my wife's share of monthly charges (that pertain to our son) is about $400. In her letter she stated that I "owe" her $4k+. If I knew there was a clause/fine print for her loans in A MARRIAGE, I wouldn't have agreed to her loans or married her in the first place. Just sayin'.
My thought about my response letter is I will keep sending her the monthly bills. The next one will include the letter which I'm still drafting. Not sure how to properly phrase it. LITB's version has some promise, after some tweaking, but I'll still up for suggestions.
alamo,
One thing that worries me is that you have continued to resist setting up a clear and defined financial plan with your W. By the looks of this. It would most definitely take a L involved. The "loan" thing will not hold up.
I sense you resist from fear of causing problems.
But this informal plan is doing nothing but causing problems.
Especially considering your past, and your W's resentment of you regarding finances.
alamo,
One thing that worries me is that you have continued to resist setting up a clear and defined financial plan with your W. By the looks of this. It would most definitely take a L involved. The "loan" thing will not hold up.
I sense you resist from fear of causing problems.
But this informal plan is doing nothing but causing problems.
Especially considering your past, and your W's resentment of you regarding finances.
You're right that I may need the lawyer's involvement in this. Just like our parenting plan, which she refused to sign, our financial plan cannot be readily solved by an informal agreement. Besides touching bases with my lawyer, this is what I might end up writing my wife (unless the lawyer has other suggestions):
"Wife, I see your concern on the payment issue. I gather that you do not want to pay any more monthly bills, especially those pertaining to E. To that I'd like it if we can sit down some time to figure a more amicable solution.
Alamo"
Sorry guys, my updates lately have been sporadic at best. I had the opportunity to spend two quality weeks with our son while mom is away in Greenville, South Carolina. My priorities temporarily shifted to him and it was a blast! We spent a lot of time chilling, playing, helping at a massive car show, camping - quite a lot of firsts for him.
Handing him over was emotionally draining, to say the least. While my wife was pleasant during this time (she better have been since I flew our son there), she behaved and talked like a stranger from outer space or something; she went through the motions just as any separated/divorced spouse does. It's so hard to stay focused on the DB/DR plan when your wife's eyes are glazed-over whenever she looks at you.
Nevertheless, it's 15 days until I see him again!
UPDATE 6am
Well, the cat is out of the bag - I emailed my wife the following:
"Wife,
Regarding your last message, I understand and respect where you are coming from and if I had to do certain things all over again, I would do them differently. I included this latest bill for your reference, and to that (as well as a parenting plan for Ezra) I'd like it if we can sit down sometime to figure a more amicable solution for both.
Alamo"
Other updates:
1. During the lead-up to my wife wanting to take our son with her to SC for the entire month, I found out during the emergency visit with my lawyer that my wife was NOT represented anymore. However, a couple of days after I got my lawyer to contact her (basically to inform her of the Automatic Child Retraining Order), my wife obtained a new lawyer. Wonder why she decided to drop the previous counselor...
2. I miss our son deeply. Counting down the days - 8 days to go!
3. In the meantime, I have been keeping busy with work (don't worry, I'm not turning into a workaholic), cleaning the house, going to garage sales, being a judge at a 300+ car show (awesome fun!), catching up on some movies, yadda yadda yadda.
I want to thank all of you for your support and prayers, and humbly ask that you keep them going. This forum, the people, and especially DB/DR have all been a great resource and help in this topsy-turvy ride.
will do Alamo, will do.
(((( ))))
UPDATE 1:30pm
Just as I thought (and my lawyer predicted), my attempt to communicate with my wife via email fell on deaf ears, at least for now. My lawyer had told me that if I am serious about our son's welfare, I should first consider trying to convince my wife to go to external mediation, and even then my lawyer is feeling pretty doubtful my wife will go with it, considering how she's been shrugging/ignoring things.
At least, she and our son will be returning on Tuesday. I'm so excited to see him on Wednesday!
BTW, where are people like MYKARMA and such?
UPDATE 2:04pm
Well, I'm royally miffed at my wife right now. I had scheduled with her early in the week to call our son today at 4:30p (EST). I tried a couple more time until 4:45p and then I decided to send her the following text message:
"In the future, pls keep me informed if you aren't able to accept my call at the planned time. I'll try again @ 5p (your time) or we'll just reschedule."
I called at 5pm and still no answer.
I hope I wasn't too formal with my message. I want to get my point across that there is a reason why I pre-planned the call. My wife does the opposite; she calls when she wants to or can, without notice.
I'm trying to be the better person here.
UPDATE 2:04pm
Well, I'm royally miffed at my wife right now. I had scheduled with her early in the week to call our son today at 4:30p (EST). I tried a couple more time until 4:45p and then I decided to send her the following text message:
"In the future, pls keep me informed if you aren't able to accept my call at the planned time. I'll try again @ 5p (your time) or we'll just reschedule."
I called at 5pm and still no answer.
I hope I wasn't too formal with my message. I want to get my point across that there is a reason why I pre-planned the call. My wife does the opposite; she calls when she wants to or can, without notice.
I'm trying to be the better person here.
you are being the better person here. She's not being considerate and I think you made the point politely but clearly.
Not too formal. MAYBE she has a real reason for mssing the time and you'll cope well with that possibility I'm sure.
but for the sake of discussion assume she blows it off. Or gets mad at YOU.
So, you have to say CALMLY (and keep records of these texts)
that you had made plans and will plan on making plans so she needs to cooperate more
or, is she trying to block/hinder access to your son?(I doubt it, but you can say it so she gets the underlying message which is that courts frown on her behavior....)
she's just clueless now.
Ironically if you end up divorced for good, when she looks back on it she'll list the original reasons for leaving as the reasons for divorce.
As if they are all permanent flaws that are etched in stone...
Almost wish she had said "Alamo is too fat. He weighs 344 lbs"
and then you could disappoear awhile and fast foward 2 years...and people could see you
and see that you weigh 180 lbs today and
wonder what HER problem was that she couldn't give you a chance to change.
((( )))
UPDATE 2:04pm
Well, I'm royally miffed at my wife right now. I had scheduled with her early in the week to call our son today at 4:30p (EST). I tried a couple more time until 4:45p and then I decided to send her the following text message:
"In the future, pls keep me informed if you aren't able to accept my call at the planned time. I'll try again @ 5p (your time) or we'll just reschedule."
I called at 5pm and still no answer.
I hope I wasn't too formal with my message. I want to get my point across that there is a reason why I pre-planned the call. My wife does the opposite; she calls when she wants to or can, without notice.
I'm trying to be the better person here.
you are being the better person here. She's not being considerate and I think you made the point politely but clearly.
Not too formal. MAYBE she has a real reason for mssing the time and you'll cope well with that possibility I'm sure.
but for the sake of discussion assume she blows it off. Or gets mad at YOU.
So, you have to say CALMLY (and keep records of these texts)
that you had made plans and will plan on making plans so she needs to cooperate more
or, is she trying to block/hinder access to your son?(I doubt it, but you can say it so she gets the underlying message which is that courts frown on her behavior....)
she's just clueless now.
Ironically if you end up divorced for good, when she looks back on it she'll list the original reasons for leaving as the reasons for divorce.
As if they are all permanent flaws that are etched in stone...
Almost wish she had said "Alamo is too fat. He weighs 344 lbs"
and then you could disappoear awhile and fast foward 2 years...and people could see you
and see that you weigh 180 lbs today and
wonder what HER problem was that she couldn't give you a chance to change.
Gasp! Are you a psychic, 25? How did you know I weigh 344lbs? LOL
Thanks for the reassurance regarding the message. I also agree with you that if we divorced, she would definitely cite the same reasons from a year ago. I still have hope, even though she and I are distant birds now.
On a more recent note, I have been feeling like less of a man this past two weeks - my confidence and GALs haven't been the best. I made a decision yesterday that I will step up again, and regain my momentum towards positive changes. Needless to say, today I feel great!
UPDATE
After much hoo-haa, I finally got to talk with our son on Sunday. Her phone had died and didn't know it. She apologized ("Sorry sorry! My phone died and didn't realize it."), but that's the reason why I scheduled with her when I would call in the first place -- so she would be READY. I finally got a hold of them on Sunday evening. She had told me that I could call whenever that day, but apparently not. Once again, I tried setting up a time, but all she said was that they might be in an Imax theater. Eventually she called back after I had tried a few times, as well as texted her more time options.
Something new she's doing nowadays (whether she calls or I call her phone) - she would immediately pass the phone to our son. Occasionally she would say "Hello?", but never more than that. Not even a bye. That's all done via our son.
On the plus side -- ONE MORE DAY till I see our son! They return today, and I'll be picking him up from daycare tomorrow and it'll be his night with me.
UPDATE 4:10pm
I've said this before and I'll say it again -- 1 more day before I see E again!
This evening I thought it would be good to see if my wife was planning on sending our son, E, to daycare tomorrow. This is how the text thread went. Judge as you may:
Me: Hi, are you sending E to Tessie's (daycare) tomorrow?
W: No
Me: I'll pick E up from your place after work (3:15-3:30), then.
W: Ok
Me: You might've informed her already, but Tessie has it in her schedule that E returns to school tomorrow.
[As of this writing (4:40, about a half hour after my first question), wife has not responded]
In this and the last texting situation, I've tried to show some form of initiative/responsibility, but my wife has reacted coldly. Two things are happening:
Either (a) It goes to show how little respect she has for me (coming from years of resentment), or (b) She redrawing because she's not sure what to make of the moves/actions (i.e. being responsible and/or mature...at least I hope I am) I've making.
Thoughts? Observations?
They turn into flakes
Hope you are well man... Good to hear from you.
They turn into flakes
Hope you are well man... Good to hear from you.
Yes CS, it's been awhile. Hope you're doing good too.
Regarding your comment (or poke), it was like you were reading my mind. The dry heat HAS been giving my scalp the case of the flakes (which is really rare). How did you know?
How are you doing man?
All i can say is : for me it took a while before i think my wife recognized my changed behavior. BTW this is just my analysis. But everytime i kept my head high, enjoyed my time with my daughter, kept my word for everything, but at the same time was strict with some boundary issues. For me this was huge 180 because in the past i really let my wife walk all over me.
But as i said it took a while for her to notice. As lot of folks here say it. Time is on your side. As they, become a 'man's man'
and give some time. As 25 said, women do respect a man who takes charge. Things will change.
I believe time will indeed tell. Nonetheless, I am having a harder and harder time respecting my wife because of all the nonsense she's pulling regarding our son and other things. If I haven't said it enough before, I'll say it again -- our son is more affected by this whole trauma than his mom or anyone blinded by hate and/or misinformation, and yet, my wife's actions (if you just read a few posts up) speak of entitlement, selfishness, justice and revenge (in a subtle sense).
You would think that spending two weeks with the parent he spends the most time with would normalize the frequency of our son's nightmares, right? Well, last night he had, at least, 3. My poor little boy.
I really want to balance out his life more with as close to 50:50 between me and mom, but she STILL will have none of it. My lawyer has asked me to consider getting her into an out-of-court mediation, but the way she's been blowing off my suggestions...well, you can probably guess how she might respond to that. Still, I will not give up or give in. I will keep asking her nicely and the more she says no, the more these "No"s will work against her in court.
UPDATE 6pm
One word: Petty. Why is my wife behaving so petty that it borders on childish?
Case in point: My wife thinks I'm out to keep our son's good things like toys, stroller, clothes and so at my place. Today our son wore a new CARS t-shirt (that I'm guessing her parents bought) to daycare. When I picked him up from there, he was wearing one of his backup shirts; the provider said it got messy so she had to change it out. Usual stuff, right? When my wife comes to pick our son up from my place, the first thing she notices is, you guessed it, the shirt. "What happened to his shirt?" I've changed his shirt many a times in the past either from getting it wet playing with water or something, and never received a peep out of my wife. What's her deal this past two days ever since she got back?
Alamo,
I don't want to give you too much of a hard time, but in your last 2 post.....your focus has completely been on your W. She going to do what she does and there isn't a thing you can do about it.
How are you man? How's work? Have you done anything cool with your S?
Alamo,
I don't want to give you too much of a hard time, but in your last 2 post.....your focus has completely been on your W. She going to do what she does and there isn't a thing you can do about it.
How are you man? How's work? Have you done anything cool with your S?
I'm doing well, LITB. Work has been slammin' busy. It was humbling to find out on Friday that I was nominated for two awards at work. That's a good thing, right?
Our son just came back from SC/TN and it was awesome seeing and being with him. Remind me not to ever let this happen again.
It actually seemed like he missed me, considering that he asks for mom when he's down or sad. His nightmares are still pretty frequent (thrice on Wednesday night), which I thought spending two weeks with (according to mom) his preferred/rightful parent would've quelled. Goes to show something, doesn't it?
My last few posts might be centered around my wife... well, there's a reason to this madness. I've been juggling some tough legal questions lately (also in my last few posts) and her recent behavior just pushes me towards the 'dark side', even though that's not what I want, e.g. I think ill of her, I get mad, I get disappointed with her actions, etc.
All said, thanks for checking in, LITB. Hope you're doing fine today.
Okay folks, random question (if it warrants 2x4s, so be it) that I have at the top of my head.
At this time last year (keep in mind that were already separated, but still under one roof), my wife and I took our son to a working pumpkin farm to pick pumpkins for Halloween. Our son had the time of his life and I plan to take him back there this year.
The random question that popped in my head today is: would it be a good/detrimental idea to ask my wife if she'd like to join us? My gut is telling me that the invite will come across as clingy or needy, but I know of a lot of people in this forum who have wiser guts than I do.
Alamo,
you have every right NOT To invite her for sure. But if you do, I have mixed thoughts.
I like texting b/c it documents the conversation. That's the ONLY thing I like about it.
But I thought it might look nice that you invited her to join you guys, and bad of her if she refuses.
But On 2nd thought, it makes more sense to say it to her, in a way that shows you are NOT pursuing her, but simply didn't want to be rude by shutting her out.
Another option is to bring son, and you invite a friend (or 2 or 3 who also have kids)...and say nothing about the exact identity of who joins you all. Is your son now 4?
It would give some mystery to your GAL-- but what do you think she'd do with that info?
Just curious...
the downside of you inviting her is that she sees it as pursuit AND OR
she says NO and you feel hurt (except if you keep your expectations low, that won't matter so you're left ONLY with the downside of her seeing it as pursuit).
the upside is that she might say yes and you 3 have fun together...
last option---upside of you NOT inviting her is that she might think you are moving on and or, with someone else and or, GAl....and you and son have fun. Even better is if you really do invite someone fun to go as well...
now that I think it out, I like that last option best. Of course, it's your choice buddy.
(( ))
I agree with 25... my W and I are still together though quite troubled. We did just this on Sunday, went to an orchard/pumpkin farm with our two youngest. I did invite her, I did it in person, and kept my expectations very low. In fact for her to go meant some logistical effort on her part so I fully expected a no, but got a yes. And I think it went well...
BUT, and a big but, we're still together. I partly invited her because it would seem odd to the kids for me not to, and we're trying really hard to keep stuff normal for them. I think if I was in your shoes I wouldn't invite her. I would just go and have a really great time with my son. Let my son go tell her what a great time we had. Granted, your son is 3 so that might not work as well on second thought
(mine is 5). But you can certainly send him home with "his" pumpkin for mom's house, maybe some apples or something apple-treat related there for mom's house, etc...
Let her see what she's missing out on. Let her see that you're still going to have a life and be a dad with or without her.
If you do invite her I'd do it in person or over the phone, but not by text. That way you can control the message and thus in person is even better. But you have to be sure to control the message so you're not clingy, needy, or desperate. Just sort of "hey we're going on Saturday and thought you might want to come along. No big deal, just let me know".
Hey alamo,
I actually came across your thread on one of the Christian porn addiction forums, and was surprised to see a link to here. Very cool. I've been here for 4 years, very similar story for me as well, ministry background and porn included. I'm a student at Dallas Seminary, on hold because of the sitch.
Looks like we're at the same step as well, I just responded to the D filing myself. We've been very friendly and had steps to reconciliation over these years, even recently, but she's pushing forward now. I'm going dark, really for the first time in my sitch, and it's really, really hard. Here's my thread if you care to swing by:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2150119&page=8
Just to add: This time of the month is a very sensitive to me. You see, last year when we went together as a family, my wife was still in her decision phase (i.e. to move on, or stay). We had a blast, I was practicing DB/DRing and our son still has a pretty clear memory of that day.
Later that weekend, my wife decided to "test" me, because she had seen changes and I guess needed to be sure. She asked if we could just chill and have a good time playing 'Risk'; we've always wanted to play that game, but for some reason only just gotten around to buying one earlier that week at a garage sale. Anyway, we're both competitive, but I didn't keep myself in check that night and when my wife started beating me, I didn't hide my unhappiness. I was grumpy and wanted a restart. My wife was very obviously very disappointed with my behavior and what she said next still rings in my head: "...The time we had at the farm, I really thought that we might have a chance, that you've changed. But it's obvious that's not true... you can't even have a relaxing game with your wife without thinking about yourself." It went downhill from there. And ever since then I've wondered what it might've been if I had been more mature, or how different things might've been.
I realize now that when my wife "evaluated" me, it was not in the best interest of us as a couple, but more for her sake. Nonetheless, it remains a truly sour spot in my life.
To respond to your feedback - 25 and Workinghardguy - I'm also (heavy-heartedly) leaning towards NOT asking her to go with us. The reason why I'm burdened by it has to do with 2 things:
1. Our son remembers that day when mommy and daddy and him did something together (pardon me if I'm nostalgic or just a family guy).
2. A few days ago (after he came back from his trip to SC/TN) we were at the dining table eating, and our son suddenly starts giggling. I asked him what's so funny? He points at the family portrait of him, my wife and I. I asked him what's so funny about that. He replied: "Ha-ha, mommy, baby E and daddy in the same picture." That made my heart sink to the abyss; my son is beginning to think his current life is normal. So in my attempt to return some normalcy to his observation, I explained to him that that's how we were before, that daddy loved mommy, mommy loved daddy and we both loved him very much. I also gave him some examples of our close church friends, my wife's friends -- do their mommies, daddies and their children live in the same house? He responded quickly with a "Yes".
ouch...
go w/o her but gosh, if you have any friends you can invite to join-do so.
and the game of Risk IS a test...for friends and couples...OMG I remember those days.
I hated my bil playing that game, as he was almost cheating (hard to do but he tried) and he became grumpy and irritable the whole night once it was clear he would not win.
Unbelievable behavior for a grown man. My sister and he are divorced now, NOT b/c of the game but b/c of the same character traits of HIS displayed playing that game...
So, okay you blew that game. You were childish...so play it again and don't be.
The 12 steppers have a great phrase that goes something like this:
"Mistakes are not tragedies, but God, let us learn from them."
And have fun with your little E....
I'll add in my two cents here, Alamo...
What would be your intentions to invite your W?
What would be your intentions to NOT invite your W?
What would your W think, if you invited her? IOW, what do you suspect her thoughts might be about YOUR intentions?
So really, in the end... is it really important to invite her to go with you to get a pumpkin? If she wants to get a pumpkin for her place, she can get it herself...
You create your own memories for you and your son...
My W is getting a lot of feedback about my kids having a great time when they're with me... she mentions it to me quite a bit... she's "noticing"... but that does not mean she's telling me she wants to join in... until she does that... *shrug*
[/b]
And have fun with your little E....
Poor little kiddo (he's 3, btw).
Maybe it's that time of the year (you know, family-oriented festivities/holidays), but I begin asking God more fervently to give our son a family that he can grow up enjoying. Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc -- he's surrounded by families, he's subconsciously trying to process it and little does he know it's damaging his future.
I can be the best father I can be (which I am), my wife can be the best mother she can be, but God did not create us to be separated like this.
I wouldn't beat yourself up over a game or Risk. Even if you had made it through that game of Risk there would've very likely been some other event soon down the road that would've been the trigger. You hadn't internalized the need for change yet. It hadn't struck home truly and squarely. Sure, had you handled the game differently it might have let things continue for a while longer, but eventually you would've ended up here anyway.
This may seem trivial, but I knew I was ready to internalize change the night after the bomb. For my entire life I've chewed my fingernails. And not in a "here and there" manner either... It has bothered my wife for years, and doubly so when our young son started doing it.
I've quit biting my nails probably a dozen times in the past seven years. She stops smoking and I stop biting my nails. I usually fail within 3-4 days and maybe the longest I've gone is a week.
So the night after the bomb was our anniversary and we went out. I asked her how the no smoking this was going (one week at that point) and pointed out that I hadn't bit my nails in four days (this was before I'd read DR or had a clue, so please, no 2x4s!). Her reply was essentially "I don't really care. You've quit so many times and never stuck with it. I'm not going to believe it until I see you not doing that for a very long time."
So I wanted to say, oh really? Ms. Quit Smoking more times that I can count! But I kept my cool and internalized what she said. I realized she was right. And little did I know it would be a foreshadowing of the things to come.
I've never been ready to internalize something that really bothered her about me. At least not enough to put it first. Unfortunately it has taken a crisis to make that happen. But I'm not going to beat myself up, because that's how humans tend to operate - crisis drives change.
And for the record, I haven't chewed my fingernails for a month now straight. I actually had to look up nail care and stuff like that today because they were getting ridiculously long and I didn't know what the heck to do with them!
And if I can do it in the middle of this crapstorm then I figure I should be good
Now if only nail biting was the width and breadth of our issues!
My W is getting a lot of feedback about my kids having a great time when they're with me... she mentions it to me quite a bit... she's "noticing"... but that does not mean she's telling me she wants to join in... until she does that... *shrug*
Yea, these emotions are complicated. I am in a similar boat.
Alamo, do what you feel is right. But yea, make sure you do not appear clingy or needy.
Good luck man!
jon, which porn addiction forum did you find me at? BG or TTF?
Karma and everybody else, I'm sure now that I won't be inviting her to the pumpkin patch due to the following revelation/update:
10/5 My lawyer left a message asking me to call her as there were some matters to discuss. I return her call and she tells me after her meeting with my wife's lawyer about two weeks ago, she was told that my wife is making allegations that I am addicted to child pornography. Truly, my past is coming back to nip me in the behind. I've never been addicted to child porn, but one of the first times my wife suspected of my porn (about 4.5-5 years ago) and searched through the computer folders, she found pictures of all kinds, and some of them were of children. They were part of a (or many) bulk zip files (the ones with hundreds or thousands of files each) I had downloaded and archived to our PC. Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your POV) I had never seen those (and many other) pictures until that day. However, that has stuck in my wife's mind ever since then.
Fast forward to today, my lawyer asked me if I am addicted to child porn. I said no, but I am still addicted to porn. I don't look at it, but I still experience internal struggles; that is, after all, the nature of any psycho-somatic addiction. I told her everything from my earlier posts here - about how I sought help from my minister (a family-marriage counselor), elders, close friends, became active and accountable to porn-recovery forums, and even here. I also told her that even though my wife is gone, I set up an internet filter on my PC and have the monthly usage reports sent to my sister. My lawyer said that's good to hear that I'm a realistic addict and true to myself, that the struggle is a constant one, unlike others who say they're done, period. Well, that was me two years ago. What a difference that time and a separation/divorce makes.
So now I'm in two quandaries:
1. My wife knows that the only way that she can leave the state with our son is by throwing down the gauntlet (I'm surprised she didn't make physical or emotional abuse allegations while she was at it). My lawyer suggested that I pursue the next step in finalizing the divorce to protect myself and place the precedence of our son's custody terms.
2. If I do, it will (a) take our son away from his mom (who wants to move to the east coast for her medical residency, which is highly likely). He's used to 50:50 (well, more like 70:30, no thanks to mom) right now and to take that away from him would be devastating. I won't settle for less, because he has stability with me - his daycare, his friends, I have normal work hours (mom doesn't), (b) possibly kill the chance of reconciliation, and (c) until he is old enough to comprehend it, our son will have to suffer through a major adjustment phase. Needless to say, I've been pushed into a tight corner here.
Any advice is appreciate here.
Adding on to my previous post:
1. Referring to my first post here
here, I found out when I retained my lawyer that my wife was NOT represented anymore by her former lawyer. I think what I did to enforce our son's rights pushed her into a corner, because not so coincidentally, she obtained a new lawyer a few days after the events of 8/19.
2. Which would also explain the extra distancing she demonstrated regarding my trying to talk to our son on the phone that I journaled on
9/24/11 and
9/27/11, and
3. Which would also explain why on the very first day she came back from SC/TN, she began signing our son into daycare using her maiden name in the signature column. Prior to her leaving, she was still signing using her married name.
you don't have much choice since she tossed the unpinned grenade in your lap
she's going for broke Alamo, so that you'll feel lucky to be able to chase her around and see your son wherever she may go.
Sorry...what does your L say?
As far as recon is concerned, put custody of your son first...
besides, if there really is a chance for a recon down the road
it'll come more from her seeing you as a strong man who brings something to the table other than nanny care for son.
My guess is she hired a new "different" kind of L or one to whom she has given a different version of you...
So sorry
Sorry...what does your L say?
She advised that I should push for the divorce before my wife does, in order to protect myself and put precedence on setting custody demands, etc. In the short term (before my wife potentially moves) we should be able to set up a 50:50 schedule, but afterwards, not so much. I will try to keep our son with me 100% based on the fact that my wife's life/hours as a resident doctor will be imbalanced for a growing child (no matter how much help she can get from her family and in-hospital daycare). Once that improves, I will consider working something out with her. The 100% part is something I REALLY not in favor of, because I know a child needs both his mom AND dad. However, in this context, I'm choosing the lesser of two evils, if you may.
Now, the only thing left to do is decide when to actually bite the bullet. I'm saddened by having to do this.
As far as recon is concerned, put custody of your son first...
Lord willing it will go relatively smoothly, considering the circumstances. I still don't know how she's going to provide evidence related to child porn, though.
She can't provide evidence alamo. That's ridiculous. That was just to scare you. I'm also scared my wife will bring up crap like this in the D, but I know she has no evidence. Don't let it affect you.
I love how you shared your story with your L. That's exactly how you need to tell it. I have a friend who lost custody of his kids because alcoholism, but came to recovery where I met him. He really impressed the judge with his vigilance. Exactly what you're doing.
Definitely wasn't TTL, must have been BG. What does that stand for?
She can't provide evidence alamo. That's ridiculous. That was just to scare you. I'm also scared my wife will bring up crap like this in the D, but I know she has no evidence. Don't let it affect you.
I would like to think that, but part of me know is on high alert. Are you suggesting I go with the flow and see what she does next?
Definitely wasn't TTL, must have been BG. What does that stand for?
Sorry, I meant TTF - Through the Flame. Very active and way more participation than BG; it's kinda like this forum. Thanks for dropping in, Jon.
Alamo,
I think your L's advice is good. Your W seems to think she can just move S to another state and move on with her life. She's in for a rude awakening, which I think will be a good thing.
What I meant is don't let the fear affect you. This is definitely a "take the gloves off" move by your wife, you're handling it well. Hope your weekend is going well.
UPDATE
Practically everyone I've talked to this past week have said that I should really protect myself and think strongly about pursuing the divorce first.
Doing so will really hurt our son (I still refuse to use the term 'my son', because he is ours. I'm quite sure my wife solely uses the latter to claim ownership, which is just paltry). Providing the best for our son doesn't mean break him up from either of his parents, does it? Because of our darned legal system, I feel like I'm being forced into choosing the lesser of two evils, i.e. protect myself and our son. The way to justify it is my wife walked away from this, and thus shouldn't be allowed to take anything that belongs in this marriage with her.
Also, I'm very disheartened by so many stories/experiences from my friends indicating how biased California courts are to mothers, no matter how screwed up or (as some were called) 'evil' they are. So I feel like my chances of custody success is a joke and really depends on what kind of judge we get.
Sorry, I'm feeling really down today.
Alamo,
Hang in there man. I guess I don't understand what you mean. At least here in Texas, your W would be forced to stay in the same city as you, even if she has custody. And that's a good thing for your S and all the way around. Why do you think it would hurt him?
Also, I don't really see it as you pursuing the D at this point. She's the one who served you and got it rolling.
Jon, it would be great if California had similar practices about requiring both parents to remain the same city/state.
Yes, it's true my wife started the divorce process, but I will be the one that ended it definitively, which principally and religiously I don't even believe in doing. Until our son is old enough to figure it out for himself, it is possible that he will see daddy as the person who gave in or gave up, or whatever positive spin anyone wants to put on a negative situation like this.
There is the frequent mention of "dropping the rope" in this forum. Well, because of the circumstances described above, I'm having to drop the rope, but not on my own terms; I'm not emotionally there yet, because the truth is, I'm not done.
Just hope I'm able to reach my (busy, busy) lawyer today or early this week. I reached out to her last week, but still no reply. I feel like I racing to beat my wife to the punch, but yet at the same time, I'm really not (emotionally) committed to move on with this whole shabang.
Please keep praying for me.
Alamo,
That makes sense. Praying for you, appreciate your prayers as well.
Will do, Jon. You're in my prayer list.
UPDATE
Zero eye contact.
Zero mutual conversations.
Zero warmth.
That is, in summary, my wife whenever she comes to pick up our son. The only time she talked to me this week was to let me know that she will be going to the East Coast the first week of November for hospital interviews, and that I will be "getting" our son for that time.
She almost resembles a walking Alanis Morissette album.
This is what I'm fighting for? In a word, no.
I fight primarily for the sake of our son, and just as importantly for what was good in our relationship.
I shattered the glass, but will risk the nicks, cuts and seemingly impossible to put it together.
That is, if the glass is willing to cooperate.
You might have to figure out how to melt that glass back together...
True that, Kaffe.
I guess I'm saying that at the rate she has drifted off into space, and me practicing 'distancing' (heck, maybe my wife is practicing the same thing?), it seems like it'll take a whole lot to pull us back together; she still sees (and obviously detests) the old me, while I detest the new her. See what I mean?
"she still sees (and obviously detests) the old me, while I detest the new her."
Unfortunately, that is very well-said...and the truth for most of us.
"she still sees (and obviously detests) the old me, while I detest the new her."
Unfortunately, that is very well-said...and the truth for most of us.
And yet, the more I sit and ponder on this, the more I wonder if this is truly God's test for any person: to love someone - anyone - unquestionably. If I start drawing a line in the sand when it comes to being forgiving and loving, then I've failed Him, and in this regard, am no better than what my wife is.
It truly is the test of learning to love unconditionally. Now that I'm in this mess and look back, I don't know that I've loved my W unconditionally. Maybe I have and I'm being too hard on myself, or maybe I haven't.
There are many parts of my W, as she is currently constructed, that I don't care for. But she is the mother of my son and the one I chose to partner with for life. So if I am to love her unconditionally I have to love the warts as well as the beautiful parts. And then hope we can work on each other's warts over time.
True that, Kaffe.
I guess I'm saying that at the rate she has drifted off into space, and me practicing 'distancing' (heck, maybe my wife is practicing the same thing?), it seems like it'll take a whole lot to pull us back together; she still sees (and obviously detests) the old me, while I detest the new her. See what I mean?
I've wondered about this a lot lately, what if our spouses have bought the same books and are DB-ing us? My W has recently begun to mirror my actions almost exactly. She was over yesterday to take our son shopping and we both talked almost like she had never left, and was still living here. It felt like they were just going out and would be back for dinner rather than her dropping him at the door and leaving. I'm very confused about this...
Pardon me for writing this little biblical lesson. I thought it might help some of us, at least. The lesson talks about parents and siblings, but I feel it definitely applies to spouses, WASes and their families.
The Key to a Healthy Family - pt.1
Genesis 25, 27 - Unhealthy family dynamics, namely:
1. Trying to be competitive, i.e. sibling rivalry.
Done through sports, then school, looks, popularity - it all revolves around competition. Sometimes between husband and wife. Competition between parents and child. College to job, or money making. Things like these also are present in the church family.
2. Claiming independence
Thinking that severing relationships with family will solve problems. We must have relationships to exist. God made us this way.
3. Hosea 2:2-15
Thinking "What's in it for me?" is selfishness. Happiness that is centered on getting "what I deserve". Some people who live on this principle (e.g. Gomer and Israel) are leeches. Why is God/Hosea married to Israel/Gomer? There is no reason for God/Hosea to love Israel/Gomer. They just do. God just does.
The Key: Unselfish Giving, i.e. Giving out of love with strings attached.
God is vulnerable and lays His love on the line. That kind of love is more likely to win the human heart.
So there you have it. Thank you patiently reading this, guys. Do you want to know one interesting fact about this lesson? It's my wife's notes. Yes, you heard right -- about 10 years ago (she was 19), she took these very same notes down in a lecture she had. What happened to that awesome, compassionate and hot woman I fell in love with? You can thank myself and her for that.[u][/u]
Okay, so I made a typo...
The Key: Unselfish Giving, i.e. Giving out of love with NO strings attached.
As another sidenote, I found these notes recently in one my wife's Bibles that I've been using. Has my wife become a walking oxymoron?
Okay, so I made a typo...
The Key: Unselfish Giving, i.e. Giving out of love with NO strings attached.
As another sidenote, I found these notes recently in one my wife's Bibles that I've been using. Has my wife become a walking oxymoron?
Beautiful. You are so on the right path. Maybe your wife will come around.
I hope so, dbmod...I hope so. Because I'm really pissed today with her.
UPDATE 6:15pm
She texts me from her work to tell me she'll be running late. Then she arrives to pick our son up, and I update her that I've booked me and our son's flight to DFW for the week of Thanksgiving. I told her I'll forward her the flight confirmation email tonight. She said ok.
And then I asked her if she would like to bring our son around my neighborhood to trick-or-treat.
M: Would you like to bring E to this area on Halloween for some trick-or-treating?
W: Come here?
M: Yes, around this neighborhood.
W: Well actually, I already have plans to take E with me to my friend's and do trick-or-treating with Jack (their 3 year old).
(At this point I was honestly flabbergasted that she didn't talk about this with me).
M: What?... I would like E to enjoy Halloween with me too, you know.
W: Isn't the church doing anything on Sunday night?
(I'm now double-flabbergasted at her plain presumptuous attitude).
M: No. They're not. They canceled it this year.
W: Well, I'm sure people will be giving out candy at 5pm here.
(OMG, what the crap?!?)
M: Okaaay then.
(I just looked away from her and focused on our son, said goodbye to him and closed his door).
Five minutes later, I've had enough and decided to text her the following:
"For future events involving E, can you remember to involve his father in the decision making before jumping the gun?"
I doubt she'll respond to that, but by not responding, it could be another thing that counts against her in a court case.
Tonight I've become more motivated to finish the financial disclosure forms and get my case moving along. It's not out of revenge, mind you. It's the knowledge that she flagrantly assumes/presumes that she will be taking our son away from me to the East Coast, that she thinks she has this case in the bag.
Sorry folks, but...arrggghh!!
we get it...and I'd say the same thing. Infuriating.
But she's clueless. She's NOT doing it to hurt you...she's just in la la land where the lollipops come from, plus
she's too busy with her important work...
Yeah, take the night to calm down. MAYBE she'll tune into the reality channel called life.
Protect yourself and your son.
Infuriating -- that's the word I'm looking for. Thanks 25! How are you?
UPDATE 7:08pm 10/27
My wife DID respond (via text)...
W: I was simply going by the schedule.
W: If u constitute halloween as a major holiday u should let me know. Last time we talked only thanksgiving and xmas were brought up.
M: It's not a major holiday, and short while seeing and taking pictures of E running around with his cute costume trick-or-treating - it's not massive time from your schedule with him, right?
W: I already have plans. If u have a problem talk to your attorney. Not my job to look out for u and your interests.
M: This has nothing to do with me or you and it shouldn't be. E and I chose costumes (and he and you too, I'm sure) and all he talks about now is going out together getting candy. So I say this because E deserves to enjoy a simple day like this because he's been so hyped about it. I don't see any reason to half his anticipation and excitement. This is not what mutual parenting is all about.
(I wanted to add something like: We gotta give our little fan what he wants! It's not an unreasonable request, after all.)
UPDATE 1:45PM 10/30/11
Nothing more was said on Friday or Saturday about the Halloween/trick-or-treat discussion my wife and I have on Thursday. However...
On Sunday afternoon, my wife texts me:
W: I meant to ask you do you want to keep him later so you can do trick or treating tonight.
M: (Responded about 2 hours later) Sadly I don't think anyone trick-or-treats until the 31st. So it would be nice, but you can pick E up at the usual time. Appreciate the suggestion though.
W: They did last night around here and they will tonight.
M: No harm trying to do that in this neighborhood then. Pick E up sometime before/at 7?
W: Ok
M: (At 7:02pm, after our son and my wife left) Thanks again for the late evening with E. He had quite a lot of fun.
So despite an early outing, our son was able to visit a total of 4 homes (as a police officer, mind you) and came back with an almost full bucket. Not bad at all! I wish I had our son here for REAL Halloween (with mom, if she'd like to come), but alas...
UPDATE
Just having a lousy day today, more specifically work. I feel like I'm not jiving and excelling as well as I should. I think I know why, but I don't want to make excuses for myself. This Alamo doesn't give in without a fight.
It's a lonely Halloween without my boy here...
UPDATE
I've been personally feeling very BLAH lately. Each time I sit down to fill out the legal financial paperwork, my stomach begins to churn. Each time I see our son leave and my wife fronting an act as cold as an Antarctic blizzard, my heart sink.
And with Thanksgiving, my birthday, my wife's birthday a couple of days after mine, Xmas, then pushing to divorce my wife (which I REALLY don't want to do, but have to)...this is a very hard time.
(On the plus side, at least my porn addiction is still under good control. Usually it flares up under duress, but I've been able to preoccupy myself with more productive and respectable hobbies.)
Hang in there Alamo. I'm feeling some of the same with the holidays coming up. Glad to hear about your progress with your addiction, that is fantastic!
Thanks Jon!
UPDATE 11/4/11
I know it's belated, but strangest thing happened on this day.
On this day, a group of students and faculty (from my wife's and my alma mater) were involved in a very serious bus accident where most of them were serious injured and one died on the spot.
What was strange was how I found out.
At 8:40pm my wife called me, but I missed it. Then she texted me at 8:42pm to ask if I knew about ACU. I responded to tell her that I didn't. After I read up on the news, I texted her saying that it was sad and asked if she knows anyone involved. She did not respond until the next day.
Now,
why would the news be important enough for her to call me?
Why would she follow up with a text?I mean, she hasn't been this engaging since, well, more than a year ago. I also think she caught herself being so "communicative" by not responding to my text until the next day with a simple "No."
So close yet so far...
UPDATE 11/14/11 6:15pm
Picked our son from daycare and was informed that he did not nap (because he wanted to "see daddy") and that my wife had also informed our provider that our son had a long night last night.
Now our son gets a little kooky when he's tired, never fusses or throws tantrums. So while he was with me, he was absolutely great, even until mom came to pick him up.
He did fidget and gave her a little fuss when she put him in his car seat, so off-handedly I mentioned that he didn't get a nap at school today.
She retorted by saying that that's all right, he's outgrown naps.
What? When did she decide this?
I know children our son's age (3) need around 11-13 hours of sleep per 24-hour period, and I know that even that is not a fixed rule; depends on the day and the child. I also know that some parents allow their children to drop naps as early as 3, but in this circumstance our son slept late last night and had no nap today, so that should be taken into account, shouldn't it?
I heard about the ACU wreck. Very interesting that she contacted you about it.
Someone else will have to give you advice on the co-parenting stuff. I don't know, other than that you can't really control what she does. I do like how concerned of a father you are.
Happy belated TG everybody. I've been busy the past week and a half, and haven't been checking in like I normally do.
UPDATE11/19-11/25: Took our son to Dallas for TG with my sister and brother-in-law. When I went to pick him up 11/18 from my wife's house:
W: So I guess you don't need a letter from me to travel with our son, huh? (Recall the whole fiasco when my wife took our son out of state awhile back?)
M: Hmm. No.
W: Ha-ha-ha. (It was a sarcastic laugh, BTW. I ignored it.)
11/25 - From Dallas I text my wife to ask she'd like to pick our son up at 6pm that evening. (She knows our itinerary, since I emailed it to her weeks ago.) This was the rest of the text message conversation:
W: Im actually out of town...but I can pick him up tomorrow night.
M: Ok, let's make it Sunday afternoon like usual.
W: I would really like to get him Saturday night or Sunday morning.
M: Sure! I'll drop E off at 8am tomorrow on our way to church.
W: Thanks. I really appreciate it.
I was a little surprised by the smiley face.
Anyway, I dropped our son off as agreed on this morning and at 8:53pm I received the following email from my wife:
Alamo,
I'll have E with me tomorrow. We're going to the Monterey Bay Aquarium. He'll be back to day care as usual on Tuesday.
You'll have E the week of December 6, and then again for 2 different weeks in January while I'm gone for interviews. I'm planning on taking him for Christmas to Tennessee for 2 weeks December 17- Jan 3.
Hope you guys had a good vacation,
Wife.This was my initial reply, because I don't think I agree with her taking our son for two long weeks to TN for "Christmas". That's one bloody long Xmas:
Thanks for the info. I realize tomorrow's trip was perhaps spur-of-the-moment. Nonetheless, in the future, please try to plan and let me and Ez know ahead of time if you plan to take an extra time with him. I had told him that we'll see each other again tomorrow, so if there was change of plans, I'd prefer to be the one telling it to him, and vice versa.
Also, have you or will you be contacting Tessie about taking Ezra off tomorrow?Is there anything I can say to express my disagreement? The way I see it is that my wife thinks that she can call the shots on when and where she takes our son just to make up for the time I spent with him while she goes for interviews. That's her loss, right? She chose this path/career and she still expects me to have tit-for-tat time with our son? No friggin' way!
I think that reply is fine. Firm but not unnecessarily spiteful. Someday if the D goes through you'll have all this spelled out, for now it's going to be tough. Hang in there!
Just a quick notation I'd make to future communications on SOME of these issues....a firm clearer stance....
I hope so, dbmod...I hope so. Because I'm really pissed today with her.
UPDATE 6:15pmShe texts me from her work to tell me she'll be running late. Then she arrives to pick our son up, and I update her t-------
W: Come here?
M: Yes, around this neighborhood.
W: Well actually, I already have plans to take E with me to my friend's and do trick-or-treating with Jack (their 3 year old).
(At this point I was honestly flabbergasted that she didn't talk about this with me).
M: What?... I would like E to enjoy Halloween with me too, you know.
W: Isn't the church doing anything on Sunday night?
INSERT: W, YOU can feel free to take him there yourself... 
(I'm now double-flabbergasted at her plain presumptuous attitude).
M: No. They're not. They canceled it this year.
W: Well, I'm sure people will be giving out candy at 5pm here.
OR YOU can find out if they;re doing it at that time where YOU live....
W, I don't want the presumptions on holidays to be that I will accommodate your schedule. That's not how people work things out, that's just me jumping thru hoops forever.
I can't and won't do that anymore. From now on, we must work things out as equals.
(OMG, what the crap?!?)
M: Okaaay then.
(I just looked away from her and focused on our son, said goodbye to him and closed his door).
Five minutes later, I've had enough and decided to text her the following:
"For future events involving E, can you remember to involve [color:#FF0000]ME his father in the decision making before jumping the gun?"In case that ^^^ isn't clear, avoid asking rhetorical questions.
Just state your needs in a way that is fair and calm, of course. Show cooperation by conceding what you will do to achieve parity with her.
Meaning, you'd
"gladly exchange 'X' for 'Y', but I must insist on..."
[/color]
I doubt she'll respond to that, but by not responding, it could be another thing that counts against her in a court case.
Document what you can. Including things like her making the plans without contacting you before. "W, as I said before, WE need to discuss and resolve these matters together. This is the ?th time you have not involved me in parental decisions."
Alamo, you may have to tell her "Firmer" things after that if she still carries on...like "W, if you shut me out of another parental decision, I will be forced to take legal action to vigorously protect my rights as a father."
You are being clear, not sarcastic or rhetorical. You are in effect, incorporating her past misdeeds in the message and stressing "joint parental" decisions. Your warning is a LEGAL one, not a weirdo threat. It's reasonable, Alamo.
Given the givens, it's more than reasonable.
Tonight I've become more motivated to finish the financial disclosure forms and get my case moving along. It's not out of revenge, mind you. It's the knowledge that she flagrantly assumes/presumes that she will be taking our son away from me to the East Coast, that she thinks she has this case in the bag.
Sorry folks, but...arrggghh!!
I get it!
Alamo, I've long thought the only way YOUR w could see the light, is if she gets
total freedom....and then it's not so great. I hope you get primary custody and in fact, am not sure why you wouldn't....right?
Do not ever lose sight of how your actions COULD be viewed by you son later.
Years from now, You will be able to tell him that YOU fought for him. It was not money or jealousy that you were fighting about, but time with him.
You love him so much that you want to be there as much as possible for him.
Alamo, what's your L saying to you? I think you are in the driver's seat on SOME of this...
Just a quick notation I'd make to future communications on SOME of these issues....a firm clearer stance....
I hope so, dbmod...I hope so. Because I'm really pissed today with her.
UPDATE 6:15pmShe texts me from her work to tell me she'll be running late. Then she arrives to pick our son up, and I update her t-------
W: Come here?
M: Yes, around this neighborhood.
W: Well actually, I already have plans to take E with me to my friend's and do trick-or-treating with Jack (their 3 year old).
(At this point I was honestly flabbergasted that she didn't talk about this with me).
M: What?... I would like E to enjoy Halloween with me too, you know.
W: Isn't the church doing anything on Sunday night?
INSERT: W, YOU can feel free to take him there yourself...
(I'm now double-flabbergasted at her plain presumptuous attitude).
M: No. They're not. They canceled it this year.
W: Well, I'm sure people will be giving out candy at 5pm here.
OR YOU can find out if they;re doing it at that time where YOU live....
W, I don't want the presumptions on holidays to be that I will accommodate your schedule. That's not how people work things out, that's just me jumping thru hoops forever.
I can't and won't do that anymore. From now on, we must work things out as equals.
(OMG, what the crap?!?)
M: Okaaay then.
(I just looked away from her and focused on our son, said goodbye to him and closed his door).
Five minutes later, I've had enough and decided to text her the following:
"For future events involving E, can you remember to involve [color:#FF0000]ME his father in the decision making before jumping the gun?"In case that ^^^ isn't clear, avoid asking rhetorical questions.
Just state your needs in a way that is fair and calm, of course. Show cooperation by conceding what you will do to achieve parity with her.
Meaning, you'd
"gladly exchange 'X' for 'Y', but I must insist on..."
[/color]
I doubt she'll respond to that, but by not responding, it could be another thing that counts against her in a court case.
Document what you can. Including things like her making the plans without contacting you before. "W, as I said before, WE need to discuss and resolve these matters together. This is the ?th time you have not involved me in parental decisions."
Alamo, you may have to tell her "Firmer" things after that if she still carries on...like "W, if you shut me out of another parental decision, I will be forced to take legal action to vigorously protect my rights as a father."
You are being clear, not sarcastic or rhetorical. You are in effect, incorporating her past misdeeds in the message and stressing "joint parental" decisions. Your warning is a LEGAL one, not a weirdo threat. It's reasonable, Alamo.
Given the givens, it's more than reasonable.
Tonight I've become more motivated to finish the financial disclosure forms and get my case moving along. It's not out of revenge, mind you. It's the knowledge that she flagrantly assumes/presumes that she will be taking our son away from me to the East Coast, that she thinks she has this case in the bag.
Sorry folks, but...arrggghh!!
I get it!
Alamo, I've long thought the only way YOUR w could see the light, is if she gets
total freedom....and then it's not so great. I hope you get primary custody and in fact, am not sure why you wouldn't....right?
Do not ever lose sight of how your actions COULD be viewed by you son later.
Years from now, You will be able to tell him that YOU fought for him. It was not money or jealousy that you were fighting about, but time with him.
You love him so much that you want to be there as much as possible for him.
Alamo, what's your L saying to you? I think you are in the driver's seat on SOME of this... Jon, I just hope things turn out for the better, marriage-wise, for ALL of us.
25, my lawyer is asking me to pursue the divorce first...to beat my wife to the punch, at least. That way, according to her, I can lay down some precedence over my request for a more balanced parenting schedule with our son. If I don't, my lawyer fears that if my wife pursues first and throws in the child porn accusation, I could get in a bind. As of right now, I've been procrastinating on the financial disclosure paperwork, but it shall resume in earnest.
I made another blunder yesterday evening. My wife pulls up in front of the garage (as usual) to pick up our son, but this time I see her rummaging through the garage for some of our son's old baby clothes. When she sees me, she said it's for Jacob (a baby of her BFF) and continues her dig.
While I don't mind giving/donating these boxes of clothes away, it was the way my wife went about her business -- ignoring the fact that our son was trying to get into HER car, pulling things out from the shelves, grabbing a step stool to access boxes on the top shelf and just tossing them into her car. After she was done, she didn't bother to put the stuff she didn't need back where they belong (a couple of items, but still).
The pathetic thing is, I just stood there and ignored it all. I'm not better than before at confrontations. So yesterday was a bummer. Not to mention that she didn't have the mind to help our son celebrate my birthday (she usually sends a card with him or something simple).
UPDATE 6pm
After the events of my previous post, i.e. my wife grabbing boxes of our son's old clothes from my garage to give to her friend, tonight she handed me a bag of "my" stuff that were in some of the boxes. I find it petty and insulting that she returned a newborn outfit that my parents gave our son, among other things.
More petty is she said this as she handed me the bag: "Here's your stuff. I don't hold on to things that belong to you." Basically she's implying that I still have a lot of her stuff and wonders why I'm unhappy when she barges in to take them. Well...
a. First, she left this family, this marriage. Whatever she didn't take when she moved out stays with THIS home.
b. Second, she has a hard time understanding that manners and social grace counts. She has never asked or discussed, she just tells me and takes what she needs. This also includes matters pertaining to our son.
I'm having a lousy day.
At least I managed to help our son pick a photo to make a photo card for her birthday today. We printed it, and wrote his name. It was precious.
Take a deep breath, Alamo! Not much else you can do at the moment.
Without being totally up on your sitch, I thought you might appreciate a little story I have toi share that may prove helpful to you...
I have a friend who's wife walked out on their marrige about 4 years ago. She moved to another state and took the child with her. She took my friend to the cleaners in the D and thought she'd be oh, so happy in her new life. Well, her new life is crap! My friend is doing well and has the wherewithall to be able to see his son several times each year (has him for the enitre summer and part of the winter).
Anyway, the two of them (friend and his X) haven't really gotten along well since the D. She is always snippy, has an attitude and feels entitled, etc. Of course my friend reacts to these provocations and so you can imagine what their interactions are like.
So one day, several yers after the D, he decides to attend DivorceCare. I thought it was a little odd since they had already been divorced for several years but who am I to judge. When they got to the week that covers Forgiveness, he had an epiphany! He realized that he had never really forgiven his W and the anger and bitterness had been eating away at him for a long time.
After that session he resigned himself to forgive her for her actions and try to work towards a better relationship with his X. One day when he was visiting his son at his W's house, he said hello and shook his W's hand.
You would have thought by her reaction that he had just handed hr a million bucks! That simple act of courtesy has undone years of animosity that had been festering between them. That simple courageous act has put them both on a path to a better relationship and they are much better parents as a result.
I know it seems crazy that a simple gesture like shaking a persons ahnd can have sch a miraculous effect, but it isn't and it did! I hope you can make use of it.
All the best!
You're pretty angry Alamo, that's fairly clear. And I guarantee that anger is spilling out and over. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be hurt or to be angry... you absolutely do, we all do. But in the end what will it get you?
Righteous with high-blood pressure, coronary disease, and stress related illness is not a winning scenario. 2TP is dead on about forgiveness. Work on finding a way to forgive her for her trespasses.
First, she left this family, this marriage. Whatever she didn't take when she moved out stays with THIS home
We're all fairly honest and straight up on this board with each other so I'm going to just say that your quote there is petty and mean. She left her toys behind so you're going to keep them? Really? What will you do with her stuff? Do you really want it around anyway?
Don't make this about winning and victory which is what that phrase above is all about. You're only going to poison yourself with the revenge. I know you're angry and hurt and want to lash out, but find a better way.
I am angry with my W. But I also have to keep working on forgiving her each day. She feels the need to do this for whatever reason. And while I don't agree with it or feel it is right, she does. And I forgive her for the pain she is causing. I'm sorry she feels the need to do this and I wish I could help her so she didn't need to. But since I can't I can only hope that she finds what it is she feels she is missing or needs.
And if that sounds weak... well, I believe it's the strongest thing in the world to forgive the person who is hurting you. It takes a strength of character and an abundance of love to go there. But I also realize I don't have a choice. I can be angry all day at her, but it doesn't affect her one bit - it affects me and the kids.
...what WHG said ^^^^^^^^^^ !!!!!
WHG,
Amazing post. I've been following your thread and learning a lot from it. Would appreciate you dropping by mine as well. Thanks!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2150119&page=10
He realized that he had never really forgiven his W and the anger and bitterness had been eating away at him for a long time.
After that session he resigned himself to forgive her for her actions and try to work towards a better relationship with his X. One day when he was visiting his son at his W's house, he said hello and shook his W's hand.
You would have thought by her reaction that he had just handed hr a million bucks! That simple act of courtesy has undone years of animosity that had been festering between them. That simple courageous act has put them both on a path to a better relationship and they are much better parents as a result.
Thanks 2TP...I also believe that it's all about timing as well. Forgiving/practicing As-If were things I did and have been doing for over a year since my wife left the house. In that time she's remained apathetic and passive, especially to parenting. If it's one thing I'm upset about nowadays is her downplaying the importance of me as a father:
- She has not respected my requests for equal time with our son (because she imagines that once divorced, she will have full custody, take our son to the East Coast and have very little contact with me anyway).
- She has not demonstrated proactivity as a co-parent.
So yes, I'm upset. Not because I'm bitter or hold a grudge, but more because she's putting more of her effort in working her way to be free of me, rather seeing our son's needs to have equal time with his parents.
We're all fairly honest and straight up on this board with each other so I'm going to just say that your quote there is petty and mean. She left her toys behind so you're going to keep them? Really? What will you do with her stuff? Do you really want it around anyway?
Not her toys. It was our son's old clothes. Many of them have sentimental value to me. I was in the middle of sorting the others out to give out to the needy. The same thing goes for her stuff. It's a sad side note that she has not asked for any of her bibles (with her being the ex-missions student and all).
And if that sounds weak... well, I believe it's the strongest thing in the world to forgive the person who is hurting you. It takes a strength of character and an abundance of love to go there. But I also realize I don't have a choice. I can be angry all day at her, but it doesn't affect her one bit - it affects me and the kids.
True, forgiving the person who is hurting me is very important for one's self, to say the least. However, when that someone is blindly hurting someone else I love the most (our son), that's a whole different story. My wife's decisions to this very day are making compromises with our son's life and stability.
Yes, I need to let my feelings go and be productive. Believe me, I do -- it's still a 180 I practice diligently. Sometimes I just can't help but react when our son flatly (and obviously disappointedly) says that if he asked mommy to come with us to, say, the kids museum to have fun, she will say no.
And if that sounds weak... well, I believe it's the strongest thing in the world to forgive the person who is hurting you. It takes a strength of character and an abundance of love to go there.
However, when that someone is blindly hurting someone else I love the most (our son), that's a whole different story. My wife's decisions to this very day are making compromises with our son's life and stability.
I promise you that right now is not the time to be forgiving your wife. She's hurting you, and she's hurting your son. And she doesn't care. Use your anger toward her to provide you with energy to take positive actions that are in your best interest.
UPDATE
I can't believe my wife has so little respect for me (maybe it has something to do with her hatred, being a Type-A and the fact that she's going to be a full-blown doctor really soon). Here's what happened a couple of evenings ago:
She's out of town for exams and interviews in the East Coast for this entire week. On Wednesday evening she calls out of the blue, but we missed her call because I was giving our son a bath. I text her back later that night: "Sorry we missed you...it was bath night." I wasn't surprised she didn't respond.
This morning when I dropped our son off at daycare, the provider told me that my wife had called to talk to our son. I asked if my wife just called on a whim to chat. The provider said that my wife texted first to ask what time would be best to call.
Wait a second...why doesn't my wife do the same when our son is at my place? Is that how little respect she has for me? Even less than a childcare provider?
When my wife takes our son out of town, at least I inform her ahead of time when I would call to talk to him. Even then, she never kept to those times either.
Wait a second...why doesn't my wife do the same when our son is at my place? Is that how little respect she has for me? Even less than a childcare provider?
One of the hardest things for me to get my brain around was the fact that the mother of my children didn't give a damn about me anymore. And I wish I had come to that realization, and accepted it, long before I did.
It's our wedding anniversary to me today... nothing happy about it, nothing sad about it either. Just reminds me of what I've lost and why I keep trusting in the Lord.
UPDATE 3:35pmToday our son is sick and resting with mom, who is also recovering from something. Just paid him a visit and he looked so miserable. Poor little booger.
Thank God he doesn't get sick often, though.
He cried and cried while I was there and I held him awhile before I left. I was supposed to have him over as usual, but I felt that he needed rest rather than activity, so I suggested that he stayed and see him tomorrow.
I gave our son a hug and he cried for mommy. My wife then said, "
Kids all over the world as for their mommy when they're sick."
UPDATE 12/19 8amIt's going to be a comparatively quiet/lonely Christmas and New Year this year. Our son left with my wife for TN for a grand total of 18 long days. I already miss him dearly.
When I dropped our son off at her place a few hours before they flew out, I asked my wife if she's read the emails I'd sent her over the weekend. I said that in one of them I gave her a rough schedule of when I would call her to talk to our son during their stay there. This is what she said:
W: No. I've been really busy; I haven't checked my email in days.
M: Well, when you get the chance, have a look at it.
W: Why do you need a schedule? We may have plans. Just call whenever.
M: That's the idea of a schedule, so we don't have to play phone tag.
W: (Laughs) You are trying to be controlling. Stop being controlling.
M: I don't want to call when I fancy. That would be more annoying. (I was subconsciously pointing at her own past behavior).Then our son said loudly:
"Stop, stop! Those are bad words."I hope what he said broke her heart as much as it did mine. We haven't "argued" like this in months, but our son could pick up on it right away. The next part is hypothetical: Another sad part about it is the possibility that our son's reaction is fueling my wife's anger/animosity/resolve. In her eyes, nothing has changed, because our son is the automatic argument tell-tale. Daddy is still the same jerk. Nothing has changed.
I didn't pursue the conversation and quickly changed to saying one last goodbye to our son, and telling him to be polite and to behave.
UPDATE 12/19I had also asked my wife (verbally and by email) to send me their flight itinerary, but still no response. This irresponsibility is driving me up the wall!
Hope everyone else is doing fine and ramping up safely for Christmas!
on one hand, how are YOU being controlling when SHE is taking him out of state for 18 days?
That takes some nerve. Her perspective is very self serving so she's not aware of her own bias.
OTOH, why do YOU need an itinerary if she has given ont to her family? If there's a crash, they'll call. I mean I get that you want to know where your son is but you do pretty much know.
Keep those emails short and few.
The more you send the more she'll blow them off as being excessive and controlling.
My h texts me when he's away, and mostly the texts are tasks or "to do" lists and reminders...I hate that
and we're married!
W: No. I've been really busy; I haven't checked my email in days.
M: Well, when you get the chance, have a look at it.
W: Why do you need a schedule? We may have plans. Just call whenever.
... and end scene. IMO, you should've just ended it right there. After that it became more about her not complying with your request than about the request.
I understand wanting to be able to reach your S when he's gone for 18 days (and I won't get into the related issue of why she thinks she's entitled to an 18 day period with him). The schedule was, ostensibly, to make reaching him possible. She pushed back and didn't like the idea. And then, at least to me, it appears to have become about her not wanting to go along with your idea. However, she did offer a second idea, "calling whenever". Is it possible that when you do call whenever she'll become annoyed or angry? Sure it is. But then you can at least remind her that calling whenever was the agreed upon solution.
Co-parenting is tough... it's about respecting the freedoms and decisions of the other. When she has your S she has the control. If she doesn't want to give you a schedule she won't. Pushing only makes it worse. It's like that scene from A Few Good Men:
Lawyer: "I object!"
Judge: "Overruled"
Other Lawyer (Demi Moore's character): "I strenuously object!"
Judge: "Still overruled!"
and Tom Cruise's character (Caffrey) goes on to explain to Demi Moore that she just made her and the legal team out to be weaklings. That she overplayed her hand and showed how little power she really has.
Don't overplay... identify what you can control and what you can't. And when confronted something you can't, learn that you have to accept the powerlessness.