I was on these forums about 4 years ago because my H left and after 4 months DBing he came home and we have since had another child. I have just discovered a letter on our PC to a W he used to work with and from the wording they have been having a PA for the last 3 years and he is in love with her but doesn't want to leave me because of the kids (his words in the letter). I've shown him what I've found and he stared straight at me and said it isn't true and he hasn't slept with her!?!! What!?!?!? Our children are 6 and 3, I don't work and now what do I do??? I could really do with someone to talk to please
ouch...
He says no PA, you say letter suggests PA... I feel your pain and don't want to be vulgar, but did the letter really indicate intercourse or similar PA...
Of course, believe nothing of what he says and 50% of what he does...
He indicated in the letter that he does not want to leave you because of the kids. OK, that's a start.
Or maybe is he trying to end the A and that's his excuse to her?
I understand it's hard to talk to him right now and best to take a bit of a breather for you.
But if you've had "the talk"... what is he saying to you? Is he staying with you? Does he know what he wants? Does he still love you (regardless of staying with you because of the kids)...???
Hi, thank you so much for your quick reply!
Basically, he was at work when I found it and (understandably) I was in tears when he came home. He asked what was wrong and I just gave him the laptop with the letter open on it. He hung his head, put the laptop down and walked off saying he didn't even send it and couldn't remember what was in it. I read the whole thing out to him and he stood with his head on the door frame. He then said "I had booked a romantic meal for us for tomorrow night too" "I haven't slept with her".
In his letter it says "you are the only person I've kissed and made love too in the last 3 years" "I need you like a drug" when questioned about these sentences he said that he's wished he has been with her but that it is all in his head and stated again that he hasn't slept with her. He then said what do you want to do because I deserve it all and I said I don't want to make any rash decisions right now, I'm going to my Mum's (she lives close) and I'll be back to get the kids ready for school in the morning and I left. I've just got back home and he is fast asleep.
ok... whoa...
He WISHED he'd been with her...? So is this some sort of fantasy? This is all very bizarre...
I understand the emotions right now. Agreed that you need to take some time. 48 hour response rule?
Take your time for you and be well. I'm guessing more will come out of the wash soon...
He wants me to believe it is all fantasy, except the person is real and before I found the letter on the PC I found a birthday card and Christmas card hidden in his clothes which he says were there because he forgot to throw them away and he couldn't remember when they are from. But then last night when I discovered the letter he has now admitted that he lied and that the cards were from last December.
48 hour response rule?? I don't know if I can go 48 hours - I feel so sick
I'd say you really have to go big on the detach. Whatever it takes. Unfortunately, I have to go to sleep right away for an early morning and it seems rather quiet on the board otherwise.
Is there anyone you can talk to right now? Can you just get out and do something to distract you?
I'm guessing that no one else knows at the moment...
I so understand the panic and feel your pain.
Thanks so much. You're right, I need to know what he thinks/feels and wants - I suppose he might see fit to tell me more when he wakes up.
How long before he wakes up?
Do you still have the DB or DR books? I'd recommend maybe a quick refresher at least.
Or read the infidelity and other forums around here to at least keep you occupied and distracted and maybe help give you some inspiration and hope...
oh... and if you COULD be dark for the moment. If he's going to come clean, let him initiate contact. Otherwise do your best to keep your cool.
He'll crack... and maybe in a significant way...
Thank you so much, your advice seems very sensible. I am going to busy myself getting the kids ready for school and preschool first thing and then maybe I'll go back to my Mum's until it is time to collect them as he is not at work today
Sending all good thoughts to you first.
Now, at this moment, when everything feels topsy-turvy, don't let it turn into that old joke of a wife walking in on her husband in bed having sex with another woman and she said, are you having an affair? And he says "Are you gonna believe me or your lying eyes."
He's lying...you wouldn't be posting if you didn't believe it.
Put the responsibility square on his shoulders.
Tell him that he needs to go get tested for STDs since he might have caught something that could infect the kids. Hepatitis for example.
Don't let him wiggle. Just say, based on this letter, we need to protect the kids, and you can make them sick. And make sure to add that he needs to get the kids tested too since he might have accidentally passed it on to them.
Hepatitis can be transferred through body fluid, so if they drank after him, used the same silverware, or he kids them on the head even.
It is not your fault he cheated.
OMG really?? is that true about the hepatitis?? it is 10am now and he is still in bed looking sorry for himself.
Hi IP,
I just want you to know that you are not alone in your pain.
Stay strong for your children.
I'm think about and praying for you.
Thank you so much.
He is still denying the PA despite the black and white evidence written by him! He seems in total disbelieve at how upset I am and keeps trying to act like everythings normal! asked me if I wanted to go shopping for clothes this morning. Keeps looking at me with lost little puppy eyes and saying sorry. I've told him I don't believe him and that there's no point talking if he isn't going to tell the truth.
Hey IP,
So here's something for you to consider...
What if he IS telling the truth?
Personally, I do not expect him to tell you that he DID have a PA.
So, considering DB is solutions based (therapy)... What happened... whatEVER happened... happened...
He knows you are upset. You can simply let him know that it will take a lot of time and effort to not have that thought not hurt so much.
Let him know that, in the mean time you would like to work with him to help you become more comfortable that is not something that would ever happen in the future...
Understand what I'm saying?
Hey IP,
So here's something for you to consider...
What if he IS telling the truth?
Yes, I know what you're saying, I have been considering this myself but from the things in the letter he would have to be some sorty of crazy person to have written it all without there being an affair!!! It is so heartfelt and completely reading like he will always have a special place for her in his heart and that he can't take the pain of not being together properly any longer and that he thinks they should stop contact - he sounds so heartbroken in it and mentions sleeping with her and sending her gifts (which he's admitted he has sent but denys the sleeping with her bit). I can't see why he would write all that when drunk (which is his reason as to why he wrote it) if there was none of it going on to base his letter on!
He also sent her an email of an ice cube with a heart in it and wrote "you melt my heart xxx" under it. His reason for this is that he sent it to her to ask her opinion on if she thought it would be a good thing to send to me!! Now who does that??
His reasons to explain them are so unbelievable yet he is absolutely adamant he's telling the truth!?!? however, when I found the two cards from her on Saturday he lied about them and was adamant he was telling the truth then only to now admit that he lied on Saturday about them so I guess he is very, very good at being a convincing liar
I understand what you say about DB being solution based and what happened happened but if there is to be any chance of salvage I need to know the truth or it will eat me up and we'll get nowhere. My gut instinct right now is to run but I don't really want that life for my kids and can't imagine not being with him after 15 years but I just don't believe him and trust is the foundation of it all really. I'm so confused.
He is lying...you must know this in your heart.
I know that there's this crazy feeling with things like this - it's normal - you aren't losing your mind. You are currently married to a liar.
Again, don't let him act like you are in the wrong. He is...and again, ask him if he wants to protect his lie at the cost of getting the kids sick.
You CAN catch hepatitis from saliva and other transmission methods.
What does he love more - his kids being safe or his lies. Put the burden on HIM.
http://www.hepatitis-central.com/mt/archives/2007/03/can_saliva_tran.htmlPeople with chronic Hepatitis C are advised not to share toothbrushes, razors, nail clippers or other personal articles that may have potentially been in contact with their blood.
We used to have a saying around here. "All cheaters lie -- PERIOD."
As my friend Bryan would say, "About right."
Starsky
You're both right, I do believe in my heart he is lying - his constant adamance that he is telling the truth is eating away at my gut feelings though. I just can't believe he could lie so convincingly for so long - I've told him about getting tested and that he could give the kids something and he STILL insists he's telling the truth. I just don't know how I can get him to admit it. Stupidly I didn't make a note of her email before I told him what I'd found and now it is all deleted. I feel like I'm going to go to my grave never knowing and it makes me feel physically sick. I'm feeling so angry today.
If he went to get tested, would that be admission of guilt for you?
Or might he just get tested to prove that he is fine?
Sorry IP, you may NEVER get the response you want, from him.
If that (the A or the lies) would be a deal breaker for you, then proceed life without him...
Otherwise... the two of you will have to work on repairing the distrust and his bizarre behaviour.
I would want to know he was clear if we were to try to repair this mess, and as he isn't willing to admit that what he put in his letter actually happened (ie PA) I think it is only right for me to make sure myself and my kids are safe.
As for if the A or lies are a deal breaker, I just don't know right now - if there was just me I think it probably would be to be honest, but I have two small children to consider too....such a mess.
Sorry you are here. I am dealing with my WAW affair also. I had never even thought about hep. Even though my w insists no pa, I don't believe it. I may just go with the kids and get us tested for my own piece of mind. Also, I'm going to insist w get tested too. She will be angry, but it's a result of her poor decision.
Keep strong. I can promise you, it will get easier...
Cheers
Hope your tests are OK for you all - so wrong that kids have to be put through it because the person who cheated can't be honest.
Just returned from a vacation that was planned before this all happened. He is still insisting it was all made up when he was drunk one night and that he hasn't had a PA. He is claiming undying love for me and wants us to work things out - still so confused
So I guess the question remains...
Are you planning to get a satisfactory answer out of your H?
What would be "satisfactory"?
No amount of my W telling me that "nothing happened" when I found her under the covers of our marital bed with a "friend" who happened to be fully clothed would be considered a "satisfactory" answer to me. Nor the video I found of her laying in the lap of same gentleman...
No doubt she will forever deny any improprieties...
Do I simply assume I'm right? Do I simply assume the worst, consider it a deal breaker, and cut her out of my life?
Or do I "let it go"... truly... and work on re-building my trust in my W and building a better R and M?
Yes, in my sitch my W does not want to work on the M, so for me it's a moot point... Although if my W HAD agreed to work on the M, I was prepared to make every effort to get over it and accept it as some poor judgment on my W's part and move forward...
So what's the plan?
He has told you that he wants to work on your M? Are you planning on IC and/or MC or other efforts to do that...?
You make a very good point indeed KD and am amazed at what you mention your wife denies - I am finding it so difficult to understand how people can deny something when there is proof to the contrary.
It has been almost 3 weeks since I discovered the letter, emails and cards and I still just feel kind of empty - apart from when I discovered them I haven't cried and I just feel like I hate H - yes he says he definitely wants us to "grow old together" (his words)but other than that he is acting like nothing is wrong. I guess you're right and it is all down to me to decide if I can "let it go" and move on. I honestly don't know how to do it - it seems like a huge mountain right in front of me.
I would submit the first order of the day is to just get out and away from your H to do the thinking that you need to do...
Some serious soul searching, I think...
I'm not suggesting moving out or tossing him, just to be clear.
Just saying you need some YOU time, even if it means booking a couple nights at a hotel next weekend... He might become clingy and that might become annoying...
Inpain,
There are really only two ways you can approach this, in my opinion:
1. GET PROOF; or
2. ASSUME HE IS LYING.
Blindly assuming he's telling the TRUTH -- in light of what you've already discovered -- would be naive, and asking HIM to be honest with you is fruitless. Remember, "ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD."
At this point, it is up to HIM to satisfactorily prove to YOU that he's serious about working on the marriage with you, WITHOUT a third person involved.
What are your dealbreakers? Some suggestions might be that he sends OW a no-contact letter, agrees to full transparency with you, and agrees to attend marriage counseling with you, but whatever they are, it needs to be YOUR list.
You're in a good position, with him claiming to want to work on the marriage. But THIS IS THE TIME when you have your maximum opportunity to ask for what you need.
Starsky
Just returned from a vacation that was planned before this all happened. He is still insisting it was all made up when he was drunk one night and that he hasn't had a PA. He is claiming undying love for me and wants us to work things out . . .
Starsky
Just returned from a vacation that was planned before this all happened. He is still insisting it was all made up when he was drunk one night and that he hasn't had a PA. He is claiming undying love for me and wants us to work things out . . .
Starsky
I'm afraid I was rather sarcastic and said I didn't think much to the strength of his undying love if he can do what he's done - probably wrong, I know but just so tired of hearing rubbish!
I would submit the first order of the day is to just get out and away from your H to do the thinking that you need to do...
Some serious soul searching, I think...
I'm not suggesting moving out or tossing him, just to be clear.
Just saying you need some YOU time, even if it means booking a couple nights at a hotel next weekend... He might become clingy and that might become annoying...
Yes, I think you're right that I need some time alone - his sad lost puppy expression is becoming annoying when it should be me that has that expression under the circumstances!! I'm still trying not to upset things too much at the moment, it is our S birthday at the weekend so I don't want to spoil it for him bless him but maybe the next available weekend would be a good idea!
Just returned from a vacation that was planned before this all happened. He is still insisting it was all made up when he was drunk one night and that he hasn't had a PA. He is claiming undying love for me and wants us to work things out . . .
Starsky
I'm afraid I was rather sarcastic and said I didn't think much to the strength of his undying love if he can do what he's done - probably wrong, I know but just so tired of hearing rubbish!
So in other words, you were unclear about what was required for him to come back . . .
My advice, if this moment (or one similar to it) presents itself again:
1. Ask "Are you asking me what it's going to take for you to come back and work on the marriage?" (CLARITY)
2. Say "I'm afraid it's not that simple anymore. I'll have to think about that -- let's talk more next week." (LET HIM KNOW THAT HE DOES NOT CONTROL THE WHOLE THING HERE, and that YOU aren't sure what you want any more. You want him to think "Oh no, maybe I pushed her too far this time ...")
Most people blow it by a lack of CLARITY and BOUNDARIES, and by failing to perceive the moments when you have the most leverage. Response #1 will help you separate if it's just a drunken dial/b.s. or if he's serious, and #2 will help you take your power back.
Starsky
Inpain,
There are really only two ways you can approach this, in my opinion:
1. GET PROOF; or
2. ASSUME HE IS LYING.
Blindly assuming he's telling the TRUTH -- in light of what you've already discovered -- would be naive, and asking HIM to be honest with you is fruitless. Remember, "ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD."
Hmmmm, I feel so dumb that I can't get my head around this - maybe it's because I'm an honest person! But I think you're right, I would be naive to believe him - but what kind of person does that make him if he's prepared to let me live such a lie!?!?!?
At this point, it is up to HIM to satisfactorily prove to YOU that he's serious about working on the marriage with you, WITHOUT a third person involved.
I have said this to him that it is down to h im to prove he is telling the truth - he pulls a pained face and says it is impossible to prove - oh dear maybe should have thought of that before deleting all her numbers! Not that it's my place to think of how he can prove things but I have been trying to think of a way and I can't think of one.
What are your dealbreakers? Some suggestions might be that he sends OW a no-contact letter, agrees to full transparency with you, and agrees to attend marriage counseling with you, but whatever they are, it needs to be YOUR list.
He is already trying to be totally transparent - I have his phone at the moment and when he went out to fix the car earlier he sent me a picture of the car in the garage to prove where he was - it all seems so crazy. He says he doesn't know where she lives or her number to be able to send a no contact letter and we have already been here before - for the last 4 years he has been swearing to me that he hasn't spoken to her since March 07!!! - staring me straight in the face and swearing he hasn't heard from her
You're in a good position, with him claiming to want to work on the marriage. But THIS IS THE TIME when you have your maximum opportunity to ask for what you need.
You're right - just need to work out what it is I need - apart from my memory erasing.
Starsky
Oops! sorry, that didn't work did it - I was trying to reply to each of your quotes but it is all jumbled in one. My replies to your points are in bold below:
"Inpain,
There are really only two ways you can approach this, in my opinion:
1. GET PROOF; or
2. ASSUME HE IS LYING.
Blindly assuming he's telling the TRUTH -- in light of what you've already discovered -- would be naive, and asking HIM to be honest with you is fruitless. Remember, "ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD.""
Hmmmm, I feel so dumb that I can't get my head around this - maybe it's because I'm an honest person! But I think you're right, I would be naive to believe him - but what kind of person does that make him if he's prepared to let me live such a lie!?!?!?
"At this point, it is up to HIM to satisfactorily prove to YOU that he's serious about working on the marriage with you, WITHOUT a third person involved."
I have said this to him that it is down to h im to prove he is telling the truth - he pulls a pained face and says it is impossible to prove - oh dear maybe should have thought of that before deleting all her numbers! Not that it's my place to think of how he can prove things but I have been trying to think of a way and I can't think of one.
"What are your dealbreakers? Some suggestions might be that he sends OW a no-contact letter, agrees to full transparency with you, and agrees to attend marriage counseling with you, but whatever they are, it needs to be YOUR list."
He is already trying to be totally transparent - I have his phone at the moment and when he went out to fix the car earlier he sent me a picture of the car in the garage to prove where he was - it all seems so crazy. He says he doesn't know where she lives or her number to be able to send a no contact letter and we have already been here before - for the last 4 years he has been swearing to me that he hasn't spoken to her since March 07!!! - staring me straight in the face and swearing he hasn't heard from her
"You're in a good position, with him claiming to want to work on the marriage. But THIS IS THE TIME when you have your maximum opportunity to ask for what you need.
"
You're right - just need to work out what it is I need - apart from my memory erasing.
Just returned from a vacation that was planned before this all happened. He is still insisting it was all made up when he was drunk one night and that he hasn't had a PA. He is claiming undying love for me and wants us to work things out . . .
Starsky
I'm afraid I was rather sarcastic and said I didn't think much to the strength of his undying love if he can do what he's done - probably wrong, I know but just so tired of hearing rubbish!
So in other words, you were unclear about what was required for him to come back . . .
My advice, if this moment (or one similar to it) presents itself again:
1. Ask "Are you asking me what it's going to take for you to come back and work on the marriage?" (CLARITY)
2. Say "I'm afraid it's not that simple anymore. I'll have to think about that -- let's talk more next week." (LET HIM KNOW THAT HE DOES NOT CONTROL THE WHOLE THING HERE, and that YOU aren't sure what you want any more. You want him to think "Oh no, maybe I pushed her too far this time ...")
Most people blow it by a lack of CLARITY and BOUNDARIES, and by failing to perceive the moments when you have the most leverage. Response #1 will help you separate if it's just a drunken dial/b.s. or if he's serious, and #2 will help you take your power back.
Starsky
Wow! thanks for those - love #2! Yes, I think this is where I failed last time when he returned from being a WAS - I think I was far too easy on him because I was just so glad he came home!
It has been over 3 weeks now since I fould my H's letter to OW etc and I am feeling so confused.
He's the one who's had an EA/PA but is declaring overwhelming love for me and wants us to stay together - I am the one deciding if I want to try or leave/throw him out - does that make me the WAS????? I don't know what I should be doing or should he be doing it all - at the moment I am vascillating between not wanting to break up my family and throwing him out because I don't think I'll trust him again.
I can't imagine wanting any kind of P relationship ever again because of the images in my head of him with OW - is this normal? Can it be overcome, I don't understand how.
He is being annoylingly nice and over the top to the extent of asking if my cups of tea he makes are OK and cooked a nice meal last night - doesn't he get it?? I don't want pampering I want truth and honesty!!
Inpain, I'm sorry you're back here too. i don't have any useful advice ... I would have his balls on a plate but that is DEF the angry reaction and not a long term sensible one. I think getting away from him, getting some space will do you the power of good.
I can imagine this being awful - he's probably cheated in some way, yet denies it then seems to want to brush it all under the carpet. If he's serious about wanting your M to work, how about he fix up some MC? THAT might be a good sign.
Ouch for you....OUCH!!!
It has been over 3 weeks now since I fould my H's letter to OW etc and
I am feeling so confused.
Totally natural for you to feel this way. You are still reeling.
He's the one who's had an EA/PA but is declaring overwhelming love for me and wants us to stay together -
That's GREAT...no matter what else happens this is good news. Would you prefer he profess that "she is the one" and that the marriage to you was a fraud? Be careful what you wish for.
No matter what happened between them, he is being clear and positive, at least with his words. That's more than many get around here...I am the one deciding if I want to try or leave/throw him out - does that make me the WAS?????
It makes you the LBS with some leverage...use it wisely. Nothing punitive.
Be careful you find that fine line between pride and self respect, and the line between healthy boundary setting, and anger. Don't let anger dictate your actions.
Don't let anger/pride with a deeply wounded ego, run your life or your children's lives.
he is SAYING what he needs to say as far as wanting the m to work...that's a start.
I don't know what I should be doing or should he be doing it all - at the moment I am vascillating between not wanting to break up my family and throwing him out because I don't think I'll trust him again.
Yep...it's called being conflicted. Which makes the option #2 totally an honest one. you need time. What kind of a father is he? I can't imagine wanting any kind of P relationship ever again because of the images in my head of him with OW -
is this normal? Can it be overcome, I don't understand how.
Yes, and yes. Many marriages survive affairs. There are books out there that have helped many. One is called "After the Affair" but I haven't read it myself.
I just know that some claim it helped them move on. I definitely know people here and in my real life who survived affairs, & they did move on, eventually to be happy again.
BUT I also grew up with a neighbor wife who never let her husband (or the world) know that he'd failed her & their kids years earlier, with an affair, and she was one very bitter woman.
Don't become her. That's probably the worst choice. Every daughter of hers is screwy about men/marriage now, 25 years later.
Maybe Your marriage could end up becoming a legacy for your children and theirs, one of commitment and forgiveness and redemption...
He is being annoylingly nice and over the top to the extent of asking if my cups of tea he makes are OK and cooked a nice meal last night - doesn't he get it?? I don't want pampering I want truth and honesty!!
Do you truly NEED to know all the details? Think about that long & hard before you answer.
See, for ME, I think knowing he wants to work on the marriage is essential, and it will mean at some point
IF YOU ARE TO RECONCILE at least 2 things must happen:
YOU WILL HAVE TO LET GO OF WHATEVER DID HAPPEN...
AND
YOU AND HE
WILL HAVE TO KNOW YOU WON'T THROW THIS IN HIS FACE
OR HOLD IT OVER HIS HEAD THE REST OF YOUR LIVES...
So, what if you got honesty/fidelity from him,
from this day forward? Then your challenge would be to forgive...
I didn't see forgiveness growing up, but I learned how to do it
and it includes living in the present.
But for now, you are in a place where maybe you
can work on just being able to be around him without making yourself crazy.
Put a STOP SIGN in your head when thoughts of him and OW come into your head...
and figure out what else you'll need if you are ever to trust him again, and then
know that forgiveness IS possible, (it does NOT mean you condone whatever the hell did happen with him) and it's freeing for YOU
(even if you don't reconcile, letting go of what happened will help YOU not become consumed by the anger you feel...)
When I realized how my anger was making ME NOT Present for my kids...
and my anger was hurting ME & ruining MY LIFE & the kids, way more than h's which should not have mattered at all but I was so mad I wanted to know he was in pain too... and in hindsight that was simply my pride and anger hurting ME for longer....
so I began working on it. Took awhile.
I had to stop assessing his pain as a factor in my healing...as in "is HE suffering enough??" etc HIS reaction/happiness is NOT my index for how well I am doing. My happiness is up to me alone.
It's a process. But first, forgiving is a choice and then you have to make it again & again...(on a much smaller level though, we ALL have to do that).
I HIGHLY recommend calling a DB coach and getting a phone session.
They're not cheap, but neither is divorce.
Though I had a very good mc who was "solution based"
(not so much into our personal histories or their previous childhood issues like some therapists-----THAT stuff has a place, but this site and approach is about doing what helps NOW)
and it was the single most valuable thing for our m that I did.Good luck, sorry you are here but it's the best place to be for a lousy reason...
Keep posting. It helps.
((HUGS))
inpain:
Struggling with forgiveness myself.
It's going to take a little time.
If he's really intent on saving the R,
You have to at least let him know, you need some time.
I cannot even touch my XW right now. Even though we're cordial and civil and all that crap, when she enters my personal space, I find myself having to withdraw. I am open to the possibility that someday we could get back together or perhaps never. I just know that right now I'm not ready.
You at least are dealing with someone who wants to save things.
I had to deal with a WAW who cheated and then divorced me.
Listen to 25; you have a huge head start on most of us.
Ask yourself, what do you really want?
Vengeance? Forgiveness? and not impossible things like wanting none of this to have ever happened.
How important is the M? Can you imagine yourself not married?
I have found myself imagining how I would react if months or years from now XW comes to me and says the grass wasn't greener on the other side of D. Today, certainly I'd say I'm not ready. But in time - who knows? Today I still wrestle with thoughts of "don't get mad, get even."
One thing I do advise - pray for forgiveness, not to be forgiven, that we do anyway, no - pray for the ability and power to forgive - because trust me, you and I, we don't have enough of that right now.
Prayers
Pickle
It has been over 3 weeks now since I fould my H's letter to OW etc and I am feeling so confused.
He's the one who's had an EA/PA but is declaring overwhelming love for me and wants us to stay together - I am the one deciding if I want to try or leave/throw him out - does that make me the WAS????? I don't know what I should be doing or should he be doing it all . . .
Other than showing him an overall spirit of compassion, grace and FORGIVENESS,
he should be doing all of the heavy relationship lifting right now. YOU display the attitude; let HIM do the actual WORK.
This will change, if he demonstrates to you that he's serious, and you guys get some good counseling -- preferably from a MC/FT who specializes in infidelity. It will be truly "50/50" at that point, and you will have a LOT you will have to do.
I just don't think you're there yet, and if you let him back in too easily, you'll be making a huge mistake, IMHO.
Starsky
I don't know what I should be doing or should he be doing it all - at the moment I am vascillating between not wanting to break up my family and throwing him out because I don't think I'll trust him again.
IP,
There is a HUGE chasm in between these two extremes, and it is in this "middle ground" where true DBing takes place.
I'll give you a hint: it goes something like "I don't want to break up my family, either, but nor am I going to subject us any longer to my husband's bad behavior. If I'm going to let him back this time, it will only be with some healthy boundaries in place."
Starsky
Hey IP, I am so sorry to see you are going through this crap again.
I can see you are a whole lot stronger this time around. Sorry I have not been here to check in for a few weeks.
You said about the letter he wrote, that he admitted that some of what was in it was true, but the main bad thing, PA, was not. He's being annoyingly nice because he knows he been busted, and you are not going to believe him this time. He thinks if he pampers you and brings you tea and stuff, you will begin to imagine such a nice guy has to be telling the truth, which is kinda what he did before. If you can be kind, but detached, and let him see you will take no nonsense from him this time, maybe he will begin to see that he has really screwed up big time. You didn't do a darn thing, except to trust him the way a wife should, it's all on him. I know how hard you have worked on your M.
vc
Hi JenJam
You're right, him setting up some MC would be a good sign I suppose. I seem to be the one trawling the net looking for C and ideas of how to get past this not him! He is all talk apart from saying he'll change his mobile no and close his email a/c.
WOW 25yrs! thank you so much for your amazing post!! You're right, at the moment I am letting my anger control things - it is hard not to, although I have been better with it the last few days and at least am managing to be civil.
you ask what kind of father he is - that's a difficult one. In some ways he is great and others really not so. He is completely over the top with discipline in that he tells our children off for every teeny tiny little thing that I and most other people would let slide - it causes a great deal of tension in the house. The rest of the time he is very loving and the kids adore him.
Your friend you speak of who is bitter and hasn't let it go is exactly what I'm afraid of. I'm very afraid that if we stay together I will be that bitter person.
As for do I really NEED the truth - I feel I do, I feel I'm owed that much and not only that I can't seem to move forward without it - how can you rebuild a M on lies?? which is what we would be doing if I don't feel I know the truth. I keep hearing the words forgiveness and I know you're all correct in saying so - I'm struggling to get there though.
Pickle. Sorry to hear you're struggling with these terrible issues too. You're right, we don't have enough power to do so at the moment - I certainly don't. I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of hatred right now
[/quote]
I'll give you a hint: it goes something like "I don't want to break up my family, either, but nor am I going to subject us any longer to my husband's bad behavior. If I'm going to let him back this time, it will only be with some healthy boundaries in place."
Starsky [/quote]
This speaks volumes to me!! thank you so much! what would be classed as healthy boundaries though?? does this mean things like him being transparent at first, only going out together, things like that????
I can see you are a whole lot stronger this time around.
You're right there, I do feel a lot stronger than last time - I think because my rose tinted specs were removed last time so it isn't so much of a bolt from the blue! He's being annoyingly nice because he knows he been busted, and you are not going to believe him this time. He thinks if he pampers you and brings you tea and stuff, you will begin to imagine such a nice guy has to be telling the truth, which is kinda what he did before.
I hadn't thought of that!!! just thought he was trying to mend things! If you can be kind, but detached, and let him see you will take no nonsense from him this time, maybe he will begin to see that he has really screwed up big time.
He certainly knows he has screwed up big time this time around, he has said himself he feels far more guilt than he did when he left and I can tell by his pained expressions that he is realising this might be it for good! You didn't do a darn thing, except to trust him the way a wife should, it's all on him. I know how hard you have worked on your M.
vc
that issue about him fixing it
will have to be made clear very soon if you are to use the leverage you presently have, wisely.
But remember, if you make his work back in, a "Climb Mt Everest" type of thing, he'll feel it's hopeless.
Then "what's the point?" will settle in, he'll start to bolt and you will rush in & let all the boundaries go and the m will end or be lousy.
But letting him in without boundaries at the get go will also damage or end the m.
It's a fine line.
Walk it carefully.
that issue about him fixing it
will have to be made clear very soon if you are to use the leverage you presently have, wisely.
I have said to him that I feel it is down to him to fix things/find a solution/proove he's telling the truth on several occasions already. Is that the right thing to say? not clear enough or too harsh do you think???
But remember, if you make his work back in, a "Climb Mt Everest" type of thing, he'll feel it's hopeless.
Yes, I can see what you're saying here - it is difficult to know how tough to be though and to be honest his way back in is like climbing Mt Everest the way I feel right now!! Although I understand you mean to not let him know that right?
Then "what's the point?" will settle in, he'll start to bolt and you will rush in & let all the boundaries go and the m will end or be lousy.
But letting him in without boundaries at the get go will also damage or end the m.
I have no idea what the boundaries are or should be - I really don't want to let him walk all over me again like he did when he came back after being a WAS - that has made me feel pretty powerless and to be honest worthless so I definitely don't want that but I am confused about all this boundaries stuff.
It's a fine line.
Walk it carefully.
how can he "prove" he's telling the truth?
And what does your DB coach say about setting boundaries with him and
how he can earn his way back into your heart?
(I may be confusing you with someone else, but did you have an appt with a DB coach? They're great!)
No, I haven't got a DB coach - sadly I am unable to afford one.
"how can he "prove" he's telling the truth?"
Hmmm, he keeps saying this too. I don't know, but if he's such good friends with OW (which is all he says he is) then surely a good friend would want to help with this??? But why would I believe that his love letter written by himself is made up and there was never an affair.
"how can he earn his way back into your heart?"
good question!! and one I don't know the answer to. How do you get from being so hurt by someone and feeling numb towards them to feeling in love with them!?!? It all seems so impossible, he's not the only one to think there's no point!
[/quote]
I'll give you a hint: it goes something like "I don't want to break up my family, either, but nor am I going to subject us any longer to my husband's bad behavior. If I'm going to let him back this time, it will only be with some healthy boundaries in place."
Starsky
This speaks volumes to me!! thank you so much! what would be classed as healthy boundaries though?? does this mean things like him being transparent at first, only going out together, things like that???? [/quote]
I would start with him writing OW a no-contact letter (with you approving the content, and you mailing/delivering it, so that nothing is added or subtracted), full transparency, MCing with a C that has specific experience in dealing with infidelity, and your husband taking a full-panel STD test, with you getting a copy of the results.
But that's just me.
Starsky
Well, I loved your ideas thank you so much! My H on the other hand wasn't quite so keen!
So, I said to him I've been thinking of a few things that would maybe help me feel that he is serious about how much he loves me and wants to work things out....his response to writing OW a no contact letter? he kind of snorted and said "be a bit difficult when I don't know how to contact her" (he doesn't know it but I know her email - I haven't used it but of course when/if he wrote such a letter we could email it but I thought it best not to divulge that I know it at this stage!)
He is happy to go to MC although doesn't see how talking to anyone can help.
the STD tests he raised his eye brows, tutted and snorted all at once!! - that was the only response I got - when I asked why he reacted like that he said "I haven't slept with anyone so why do I need tests?"
I also said I would like to change the password of his email account so that he can only access it with me present - he was not a happy bunny at all!! says I'm being sneaky and how can I call him for lying to me when I'm doing things like this!!!! (he already said I can look at it whenever I like but obviously this is open to abuse as he could delete contact from her as soon as it comes through before I look)
So....I don't know - I feel so lonely and empty and to be honest he doesn't seem to me like he can be bothered to fix this.
(((((IP)))))
I can't believe this! He wants to make it work, but it seems only on terms HE feels are fair. Well - he'e the one with the mountina to climb .... honestly, I'm shocked.
But then I AM sitting here on a Friday night, alone, waiting for H to come home when he said he'd be home an hour ago but stopped off for a couple of pints.
Sigh .... I#m probably not the best advisor tonight. Right now, I advocate cutting off his ***** and having them made into earings.
IP,
It's YOUR life, and YOUR marriage. If these are the things you need in order to feel safe again in the marriage, considering what he's done, then stand your ground. If he's not willing to do it, then you'll have your answer.
Basically, what you're trying to convey is "Look, I'm not telling YOU, PERSONALLY what to do. I'm saying that these are the minimum things that I would need from ANY MAN, at this stage, in order to feel safe in the marriage again, and to rebuild trust. If that CAN'T BE YOU, then I understand, but please give me the courtesy to let me know soon, so I can plan accordingly."
See the difference? You are saying that this is what you need in A HUSBAND. Whether or not that husband is HIM, is completely up to him.
Starsky
If you want to see how this is done, look up some of Pearharbor's old threads. She wasn't married -- it was a long-term boyfriend -- but she did it beautifully.
And it WORKED.
Starsky
Hi Inpain,
So sorry your going through this. Starsky's advice seems spot on, as usual. JenJam's response was similar to mine too. If these are really your minimum requirements you should insist on them. Seems like your H thinks he can sweet talk his way out of this, and it will blow over. You have to decide if that would be acceptable to you.
SL
Sorry you are hurting. I know it's a crummy sitch to be in. But your h may have to simply wake up and smell the coffee before he can face what he has to face.
Or he won't....prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.
Face this yourself and maybe he'll begin to.
If you pretend all is well when it isn't, in time his behavior WILL repeat itself.
You are stronger than you think.Well, I loved your ideas thank you so much! My H on the other hand wasn't quite so keen!
This response^^^ may be your answer...
You want clarity from him so You'll have clarity in Your choices. I mean,
Given the givens, that's what you need, right?
So Look at his actions, (or lack thereof.) Maybe he is being clear.
In his ACTIONS..
I want to slightly edit how you said the below comments. See if it helps YOU be More Clear & assertive, and less wishy washy sounding. Project clarity even if you don't yet feel it.
So, I said to him I've been thinking of a few things that would maybe help me feel that I told him what to do to show me he is serious about how much he loves me and wants to work things out....
his response to writing OW a no contact letter? he kind of snorted and said "be a bit difficult when I don't know how to contact her" (he doesn't know it but I know her email - I haven't used it but of course when/if he wrote such a letter we could email it but I thought it best not to divulge that I know it at this stage!)
I agree you should not reveal your sources of info. But again, look at HIS reaction.
He is happy to go to MC although doesn't see how talking to anyone can help.
"Talking" isn't what will help.
Clarifying YOUR needs and HIS CHOICES- to do or not to do...will help.
So he IS willing to go, but you want to know why. (Don't ask him that, just discuss it here Or with the mc).
Is it So he can check it off the "I tried" list? OR b/c he thinks he can snow you there?
OR
b/c he thinks it might help diffuse things...OR all of these?
IDK if it matters why, IF he finally truly HEARS YOU, and
sees that You are the aggrieved party, not him.
He is the one who needs to begin the work of restoring your trust so that
you can do the "real" work of getting past this and forgiving.
..
the STD tests he raised his eye brows, tutted and snorted all at once!! - that was the only response I got - when I asked why he reacted like that he said "I haven't slept with anyone so why do I need tests?"
"why? B/C I don't trust you enough to be intimate, but I would like to" (if that's how you feel).
For me, (and maybe just me), I am not as concerned about STDs as some. I base that on whether the possible OW is a total skank ho or in a monogamous r, (well, not that monogamous I suppose, but you take my point)
and also what sexual habits you & H practice.
I also said I would like to change the password of his email account so that he can only access it with me present - he was not a happy bunny at all!! says I'm being sneaky and how can I call him for lying to me when I'm doing things like this!!!!
He's projecting. Not a good sign.
He has to either do the work, or shut up & stop pretending he's in the marriage.
So....I don't know - I feel so lonely and empty and to be honest he doesn't seem to me like he can be bothered to fix this.
He's either just Not into doing the work, AND OR
he's being like a suddenly caught child who still insists "it wasn't ME!"
when he's the only kid in the room with the broken vase.
Either way,
you can tell him in MC what you need and
IF YOU ARE PREPARED FOR THE ANSWER YOU LEAST WANT - (i.e., that when it comes right down to it, he's done, b/c HE won't work on things,)
then give him the ultimatum.
Know that ultimatums are dangerous things when you are not ready for them to make the choice you don't want.
OTOH, a clearly given ultimatum can give YOU clarity.
Given the givens, Clarity is what you need & want most now, correct?
If you decide to give him the boot,
it doesn't mean he won't then snap out of things and do the work. That could happen.
In fact, IF there's a way to save this marriage, the only way to get what YOU need to make this m to work, is HIM doing the work to make you feel safe enough to let him back into your heart and the marriage.
How else can it happen?
You cannot go on like THIS (who could?) SO really,
what choice do you have? Short term solutions are NOT solutions.
Ignoring it won't work. Letting him off too easily will also fail in the long run.
I am NOT referring to any punitive measures.
I'm big on Keeping the Road Home, Paved and Smooth.
But your sitch is one in which you'll find yourself again & again,
IF YOU are Not clear and strong now, about Unacceptable behavior in a m.
Still, you must work on YOU, no matter what course of action HE chooses.
HE is irrelevant to THAT work, and I hope you see that.
Self improvement is a cliche lightly tossed about. But it's the best thing about DBing
b/c genuinely working on ourselves, is the KEY TO OUR HAPPINESS.
Not them...US...
make sense?
Hey IP
I've calmed down a bit from last night. I think he's still feeling guitly/bad/not wanting to talk and that's fine for now. Let's focus on a positive here - he's agreed to go to MC.
My advice now would be to arrange that, let go of the rest of your requests for the time being and avoid ALL R talks outside of MC.
My H (when he was a WAS) would not talk to me AT ALL, but as soon as in MC it all came out. I think hang on in there, work on yourself (poss low self esteem?) and let the rest go to MC. I know it sounds cliched but you ARE stronger than you give yourself credit for. Pull back, wait for MC and mainly work on YOU.
Take care
JJ xxxxx
WOW! thanks for such a great post! I've read and re read several times - I
think I know what you mean that I need to be more specific with him.
I think I have done this over the weekend - it has been an awful weekend
Saturday he was pretty awful saying there was obviously no point bothering because I was never going to believe his version of events. I said that it doesn't matter if I believe him because marriages can still be fixed if someone has had an A and that I didn't feel I could not believe his own words in his letter. I stated again that to recover I need a no contact letter, MC, total tranparency with access to his emails and phone and STD tests, although this time I did try to say I would need anyone I was married to do this as per Starky's advice
.
He had to go out for some supplies for a project he is finishing in the house - he came back with a bead for my Pandora bracelet
argh!!!! I do know from the 5LL book that H expresses love with gifts as he doesn't seem to do talking (exept to OW funnily enough!) but I just could not believe that when the situation is this serious and this close to ending our M he goes and buys some jewelry!!!! He said he knows it doesn't fix things but he wanted to let me know he loves me.
I agree with you that his reactions to my requests are speaking much louder than his words - he says he loves me, wants us to be happy again together but he is doing nothing!!
Phew! thanks for the advice to read Pearls threads - I have been reading them on and off all weekend and am going to continue - she did great - hoping I can be that strong and insistant!
H has written a no contact letter after I explained to him that I need to know he's told her where to go this time by seeing it with my own eyes. He said they haven't been in contact for months anyway and that it would be dragging things back up - I said "you hadn't heard from her for 2 years when she suddenly decided to hunt you down and contact you - I am not going to take that ever again, you need to tell her to stay out of our lives!" he got it when I said that - this is what he's written - I'd appreciate knowing what you all think before I send it?? To me it doesn't seem very strong considering what has happened. He has written it on the basis that all they've done is talk whereas I was hoping for a little more seeing as his letter states he loved her and they'd been having a PA!
Over the past few weeks (me) has gone through a lot of pain having found out we had still been in contact with each other I have appologised to (me) and promised that i will never make any contact with you again as I try and rebuild the trust I have broken.
I love my family very much and I betrayed them terribly and now plan to build the bridges I have broken, with this in mind there will be no further contact from myself to you and as such I do not wish you to contact me.
IP,
I think his letter is fine. Make sure that he signs it and YOU mail it, so that he doesn't add (or subtract) anything.
Have you discussed transparency? No-contact is only as good as the transparency plan that accompanies it, and transparency is only as good as its WEAKEST link. I would strongly recommend that if you DO enter into a no-contact/transparency agreement with your husband, that you monitor it, including at least one means of intel that he is NOT aware of (for obvious reasons).
"Trust . . . but verify."
Starsky
Thanks Starsky!
I have to admit I am struggling with the whole tranparency plan thing - every time I think I have everything covered I get a panic feeling of another way out for him!
So far this is what I want to put in place
1. H has already said he'll close his private email and just use our joint one (his suggestion - great! BUT how would I know he hasn't just opened up another?)
2. H has said he'll change his mobile number (again - great! BUT how do I know he isn't lying about not knowing her number any more to send her his new number?)
3. He is already ringing as soon as he know's he will be delayed even by a few minutes.
4. I will be sending the no contact letter but how do I know he hasn't already primed her to receive it and told her it doesn't mean anything??
5. I can check his phone until I'm blue in the face but he has already been letting me do this for the last couple of years on and off when I've felt worried he's still in contact with her - I never found anything and he swore he wasn't contacting her - yet he was!!! (he can delete anything he likes before I check it can't he!)
This also brings me to another thought I'm wrestling with - if we are to believe nothing they say because cheats lie - period - do I not believe anything, ever (this doesn't seem practical or very solution focused) or do I just not believe him now until he's shown me the truth with his actions??
IP,
Most of your concerns can be answered with the "at least one form of intel that he is not aware of" caveat. A hidden keylogger on his computer would turn up a secret e-mail account (and password); a voice-activated recorder under the front seat of his car might reveal a "heads-up" phone call from him to her, etc. Please don't do this without consulting with an attorney first, or knowing what the laws are in your jurisdiction (you can only put a keylogger on a computer that YOU either own, or jointly own, in most states, for example. Ditto for a car).
Of course, if you can afford it, a private investigator is always the best way to go, but they can get expensive.
This does NOT need to be done forever -- just a period of time (two years perhaps?) for him to go thru withdrawal from OW, and to demonstrate his trustworthiness to you.
I know, it sukks.
Starsky
Does your cell phone service have where you can register your account online? You can do that, and all the numbers called by yours and his line will show up, unless they are shown as unavailable or something. I have that on ours, H does not know it, and I don't check it very much at all, but so far so good. As for the email, ask for the password, anyway, just to be sure he has closed it.
You sound much tougher this time around, but still sweet.
vc
ugh this [censored] - I thought there would be some magic thing I hadn't thought of to "know" he wasn't secretly contacting - can't believe I would have to resort to these measures.
Hmmm, VC I'm not sure on the mobile account online, I'll have a look into that.
He bought me flowers yesterday. So in the space four days he bought a bead for my pandora bracelet AND flowers! He is being extra good with the kids and being v nice too but he isn't doing anything in particular about the problem!!
I'm not sure I can do this - I have read all the stuff about putting a big stop sign in your mind when you think of the OW etc but everything he does I am thinking "yeah great but you've slept with and been in love with another W!!!" I know it is early days but how does this go away and how do you want them to be any where near you ever again?
btw my censored bit was just the word sukks - didn't know you couldn't spell that correctly
I'm not sure I can do this - I have read all the stuff about putting a big stop sign in your mind when you think of the OW etc but everything he does I am thinking "yeah great but you've slept with and been in love with another W!!!" I know it is early days but how does this go away and how do you want them to be any where near you ever again?
I think it all depends on whether they're being HONEST with you, and there really is no contact, but they're just struggling with withdrawal from OP; or,
They're LYING to you, and still in contact.
The types of things I would advise someone to do is DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT in each case, which is why I'm such a strong proponent of "trust, but verify." Once you know for sure, you don't have to keep verifying, but at this stage, how can you even decide how to proceed without knowing if he's just b.s.'ing you with flowers and jewelry, or if these are sincere attempts to speak your LL and help you heal from his infidelity?
Starsky
Hmmm, thanks Starsky.
I have been checking his email that I found the initial emails on as I am now the only one who knows the password and so far there hasn't been anything from OW which I know is a good sign but I'm still banging my head on a wall because I don't know for sure if they've had a PA or not and can't seem to get past it, I just don't know what to do.
As for the flowers and jewelery, this is typically his LL - yes I like to have nice surprises, who doesn't but I would say my LL is more affection based which he can't really do as I don't want him within ten feet of me right now
I feel like he thinks if he keeps buying things and being nice it will all go away when it won't. "I have an undying love for you" and "I've wanted you like a drug" keep coming into my mind from his letter
so you seem hung up on the PA thing... will it make a difference in the long run if he is willing to be transparent if he did or did not have one? are you expected yourself to react one way or the other?
I had affairs in my marriage, and my wife wanted ALL the details. even though she wanted all the details now when we are doing something now and again it reminds her of what i have told her. while i think its healthy, its a fine line. if you truly need to know so you can move on then state it as such, but dont push him to be defensive. if he is truly trying to work on things with you, he might think it best you not be hurt more by knowing everything.
being a H who cheated, and basically used the internet to do so... i dont know how you might be able to stop him if he really wants to do it. and it would be an extreme amount of work on your part to check all the different ways he could be using to comminicate. i liked some of the above posts about what you can do, and ive been struggling with trying to convince my wife i dont want to have an affair again, but she doubts she would ever be able to find out, and how much work it would be to try and monitor all that i do. here are ways i used to use, if anyone has others add them, ill do my best to add suggestions on how i think i would be sneaky even if she was watching and looking....
1. IE,firefox, Chrome, Safari - basically all the ways he can get on the internet. you have to have history enabled and he can never delete it.
**how it can be beat is by deleting specific history, not all of it
@@@ best way i have thought to make sure i would never feel safe trying to cheat on my wife via the computer... set up a PROXY server that only you can log into. this is the purpose of it...""To log / audit usage, i.e. to provide company employee Internet usage reporting. "" you can probably find a local tech who could set this up for you on craigs list or some kind of site. again, you would have to be the only one that could access logs as he would not be able to fake this.
*** ways to get around proxy servers are to connect to other sites and use them to get deeper into the web sites you want. a lot more work, and if you are able to keep good tabs on sites pulled up from the proxy server you should question these sites.
2. email/instant messenger - this one is harder, as you can make accounts almost anywhere, and most dont require a specific app to run, they can run right out of web pages.
** this still can be found out via a proxy, but its going to look like a pretty normal site such as yahoo or meebo. a key logger as suggested above would be very helpful as it would pull out account names and passwords, but legally look into it just in case. browser history also somewhat helpful, but the more he knows your looking the cleaner he is going to make his computer look.
3. work computers... not much you can do on these... big area where my wife is feeling like i can just affairs all over again. the only thing i have is a web app like logmein or something along those lines where i can remote into my computer at work and let her look thru browser logs like about.
4. smartphone... hard again, you can check phone records, most should show numbers texted and called, some providers will also let you set it up to read text messages for a fee. (something he would have to agree to)
*** can still install apps on the phone that 'hide' text messaging as just data and not phone numbers, plus you can install apps on the phone for yahoo or other IM services.
5. public computers... no way to track this.
other over all suggestions, there is an app out there you can put on his phone that will tell you his exact where abouts via GPS. set up an account on the computer where he has no admin rights to delete or modify any thing he uses the computer for.
if i think of anything else ill let you know. i got caught once and tightened it up, started just really using work computer to find people to talk to and have affairs with. hopefully by having him agree to a lot of this, the effort to cheat will not be worth it.
just my 2 cents on how to try and get full transparentcy. the PI might be the only way to be 100% sure. and ive never used one, but you could maybe pull the cost down by know the times he was not with you. however a lot of the time i would have affairs and one of the things that still floored my wife, is when did i even have time... i would sneak out after she was asleep to get 'food' or something and she would not know how long i was gone. i would meet the OW at lunch at work, or take whole vacation days off and tell my wife i was at work all day. and then if she ever went out with kids i would go out as well... sorry not trying to sound grim but it does all depend on how determined someone is to want to cheat.
Ugh! It's those things you read in the letter that make the skin crawl. As for the gifties, if he wasn't doing those so much before as his LL's, then it probably is his way of trying to make it all go away.
The big red stop sign does help when those things creep into your mind and won't let go.
I must say, I was quite surprised to see you say the word [censored] (sukks) haha, I thought I would try it to see if it would be censored!!
All I had to do was register the account number and phone numbers online, and each phone has its list of calls, and I have programmed all the ones I know with the names, so if ow name ever pops up, I will see it, unless it is a different one. It doesn't say ow, it says ho.
[quote=Starsky309
I think it all depends on whether they're being HONEST with you, and there really is no contact, but they're just struggling with withdrawal from OP; or,
They're LYING to you, and still in contact.
The types of things I would advise someone to do is DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT in each case, which is why I'm such a strong proponent of "trust, but verify." Once you know for sure, you don't have to keep verifying, but at this stage, how can you even decide how to proceed without knowing if he's just b.s.'ing you with flowers and jewelry, or if these are sincere attempts to speak your LL and help you heal from his infidelity?
Starsky [/quote]
Hmm, I pretty much believe him that he is no longer in contact with her but I think he is lying about the extent of the R with her in the first place! This is my big stumbling block and it is making me want to run for the hills
Phew!! Thank you for such a detailed post plsfindmylove!! I am astounded at the lengths you and others go to for an A!! I hadn't thought of half of these things that you mention - not sure if that's good or bad - maybe I have more to worry about than I thought!!
I think your information will be very helpful, thank you.
Ugh! It's those things you read in the letter that make the skin crawl. As for the gifties, if he wasn't doing those so much before as his LL's, then it probably is his way of trying to make it all go away.
Yes I definitely think so VC, it is making me so cross! I mean, really, why would I want a bead for my bracelet so that I can be reminded every time I look at it of this awful time and why he bought it!?!?!The big red stop sign does help when those things creep into your mind and won't let go.
I think at the moment I am not wanting to put up the stop sign - almost as if that would be letting him off the hook too soon - I know that probably sounds crazy and yes it is hurting me more than him All I had to do was register the account number and phone numbers online, and each phone has its list of calls, and I have programmed all the ones I know with the names, so if ow name ever pops up, I will see it, unless it is a different one. It doesn't say ow, it says ho.
Ugh, so now I have started to have nightmares where I am faced with OW and H and I'm asking her why she had to hunt my H down after 2 years and she grins an evil grin and says because I can
I really need to find out the truth before this drives me insane!! I am so tempted to contacct her but I know deep down this is a bad idea - but how else can I know for sure???
I am so tempted to contacct her but I know deep down this is a bad idea - but how else can I know for sure???
Do you REALLY think this woman would even tell you the truth??? She's a PREDATOR.
ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD.Starsky
Do you REALLY think this woman would even tell you the truth??? She's a PREDATOR.
ALL CHEATERS LIE -- PERIOD.
Starsky [/quote]
You're right, I know, why would she tell the truth!? I am just so desparate to know if he is telling the truth or if he's had an A - I guess I'm just hoping to find a way to make this whole thing easier to deal with when I suppose there isn't one.
is your plan going to be different if you know of an affair? granted i think he will have to tell you if he did have one if he is really trying to move forward with you, but knowing right now, is that going to make what your doing any different?
I think it would help me decide how I truly feel and what I truly want to happen yes. All I am doing right now is going around in a circle wanting to know the truth and it's tearing me apart - I feel like I don't know exactly what it is I have to face and deal with if I don't know for sure.
Hey, ip, I only meant to use the stop sign to keep the pictures from going around in your mind of possible scenarios between your H and ow. That's what drove me nuts, and wouldn't let me think straight. I don't at all mean for you to put it out of your mind, just that seeing it in your head make it so hard to focus on what you need to do.
Maybe a bit of detective work is what you need to do since he isn't being very forthcoming. Especially if you feel he is only telling you what he thinks will get you off the track.
vc
I know just what you mean VC, that is what is exactly what is happening - it is all going around my head over and over like a film
- I do feel as though I need to feel the feelings it causes though - I don't know if that makes sense - but it's as though if I'm not feeling the pain then I'm just numb and empty and then I think I will just let him off too easilly - I can't explain it - it sounds crazy!
I hear you on the detective work but I just can't think of any way of finding out the truth - I only have OW's email address and I really don't think he is having an A right now - I do think he is telling the truth about that - just the last 2 years I don't know about!
ugh, 2 years, that makes me feel sick.
Yeah, I understand. If you allow the feelings to subside you feel you may begin to think maybe it's not as bad as you really know it is. I know, it's too easy to just sweep it under the rug, and you know you can't do that, not after you've already been through it.
Besides the emails and phone calls, are there other ways for ow to contact your H? Does she work or live near his work? Sometimes you can do on online search for someone. That's how I got the info on ow. I just felt I needed to know, although not everyone here would agree with becoming your own detective.
vc
Yeah, I understand. If you allow the feelings to subside you feel you may begin to think maybe it's not as bad as you really know it is. I know, it's too easy to just sweep it under the rug, and you know you can't do that, not after you've already been through it.
Yes!!! That is exactly what I mean and how I feel! Thank goodness you know what I mean - maybe I'm not totally insane after all Besides the emails and phone calls, are there other ways for ow to contact your H? Does she work or live near his work? Sometimes you can do on online search for someone. That's how I got the info on ow. I just felt I needed to know, although not everyone here would agree with becoming your own detective.
vc
H broke down last night. He asked how I was feeling about things and I said I just can't see a way forward witout me feeling that I know what the truth is. He got angry and said some horrible things and went to bed. I was crying and decided I'd go for a drive to get out of the house and when I went to get my shoes from the bedroom he held me and said that he was so, so sorry. He said it over and over and then said he didn't know what he was going to do because he feels that he has lost me just when he has realised what a fool he's been and how much I mean to him. He said he can see know that he hasn't really had me on the pedestal a wife should be on for quite a few years now and that he realises that now and hopes I can let him earn my trust and love back because he can't bare the thought of loosing me. He said again that he thinks he's already lost me and so doesn't see what he can do or should be doing.
I didn't really know how to respond. I was crying a lot.
Do I believe all these words!?!? I am struggling with not knowing what to believe since we're supposed to believe nothing a cheat says
IP,
I'll be brief, as I think your sitaution is pretty clear. My advice to you would be:
1. Assume he had a physical affair.
2. Assume he's remorseful now, and wants to make it right and work on the marriage.
3. Tell him what you would need, in terms of no-contact, transparency, marriage counseling, etc., to go forward and try.
If you can't forgive the adultery, you certainly have every right to end the marriage, but I don't sense that that's what you want to do and he doesn't seem to want that either. You're both going to have to sacrifice something here -- you're going to have to try to forgive his infidelity, and be OPEN with him if he chooses to tell you about it, and he's going to have to agree to your list of terms (including MCing).
Starsky
IP,
I'll be brief, as I think your sitaution is pretty clear. My advice to you would be:
1. Assume he had a physical affair.
Yes, I think you're right on this. When I think like this though I just feel sick to the stomach and not want to continue being with him - this is my big stumbling block.
2. Assume he's remorseful now, and wants to make it right and work on the marriage.
Yes, I agree, and do think he is genuine when he says this.
3. Tell him what you would need, in terms of no-contact, transparency, marriage counseling, etc., to go forward and try.
If you can't forgive the adultery, you certainly have every right to end the marriage, but I don't sense that that's what you want to do and he doesn't seem to want that either.
No, deep down I don't want the M to end, that's true - I just can't see the way forward - despite everything I am reading and all the great advice on here I just can't get it all out of my head - I could scream!
You're both going to have to sacrifice something here -- you're going to have to try to forgive his infidelity, and be OPEN with him if he chooses to tell you about it, and he's going to have to agree to your list of terms (including MCing).
He at least is starting to realise this I think. He has said tonight that he will change his phone number tomorrow and also book a MC
Starsky
It might be too fresh for you to see the way forward right now, even though you logically know there is one. I agree with Starsky, assume it was a PA, and about telling him what it is you need to be able to go forward. If this ow is as predatory as she seems to be, make him understand that any contact gives her the signal it is back on, though they are both guilty.
What he said to you last night seemed to be genuine to me. It doesn't sound like a load of bull at all. But time will tell, and if he is going to be the one to book a MC, that shows on the surface anyway, he is serious about not losing you.
Well, I know it's past midnight there, so I hope you are able to get some peaceful sleep.
vc
Yes, I think you're right, it probably is far too fresh for me to see a way forward. I seem to be stuck at the moment.
H changed his mobile phone number last night. I thougt it would make me feel more relaxed but it hasn't - as soon as he had done it I thought "what does this actually achieve? he could just give her the new number if he wanted to". Will these awful panic thoughts ever go away? I don't want to live like this forever and can't see how you ever stop checkign up on them.
Sorry about what you're going through IP.
I know exactly how you feel.
Knowing what I know, I don't want to be near her.
I don't want her to even touch me.
Sometimes I want to have my own PA just to even the score.
But at least your H is not like my XW.
At least he appears to want to save the M.
At least he seems to value it.
Now he needs to respect you.
Infidelity is a manifestation of gross disrespect.
Make him realize that.
Name your conditions.
Sounds like you need time and healing.
And the time to heal. It's gonna take some time.
You need to let him know it's going to take time to earn your trust - that is if he really wants it.
He probably has no idea what this has done to you.
No one can imagine what it is like to be cheated on.
Ask him if he's prepared to have the A thrown in his face in some future argument in a fit of anger.
Tell him things aren't going to be the way they were.
Past innocence, trust, our perceptions of each other, are all lost.
Is he willing to sacrifice the time and make the effort?
Healing can occur, and a new and better M can be forged from these ashes.
You hold the cards, and you get to decide whether or not to give him the chance.
I know these times are painful and difficult, but look at me. I was given no chance, no opportunity, not even a glimmer of hope, just totally blindsided. Think long and hard about just how important this M is to you IP. Take all the time you need.
Prayers
Pic
[quote=InAPickle]
Is he willing to sacrifice the time and make the effort?
Healing can occur, and a new and better M can be forged from these ashes.
You hold the cards, and you get to decide whether or not to give him the chance.
I'm not sure he can make the effort to be honest - quite a few times already he has said he is going to leave because he can't stand how it is at the moment - he always calms down and apologises and says he didn't mean it but it doesn't really look promising that he wants to bail out at the very start of this extremely long journey!
I know these times are painful and difficult, but look at me. I was given no chance, no opportunity, not even a glimmer of hope, just totally blindsided. Think long and hard about just how important this M is to you IP. Take all the time you need.
You're right, I'm in a better position than most - just wish it took away some of the pain. I cannot make sense of my feelings right now. I just don't think I can love him and forgive him. It all seems so impossible. I just feel such anger that I have been put in the position of possibly ending the M and hurting my children because of his actions not mine.
Argh!!!!!!!!!!! I wish I could rid of all this anger I feel!!!!! I just cannot get rid of it and have just ranted at H again!
Everything I say I need (eg: only I know passwords to email a/c's etc so that he can only access them with me present) he complains about and moans and mutters that "this is ridiculous" "this is pathetic" "why not just rule my whole life"
I really don't think he is serious about making this work - I mean - would he really be coming out with all those things if he were!?!?!?!
I feel like I might explode I'm so angry!
All I can say IP is try not to let the anger or any emotion for that matter, dictate your words and actions. I know it's tough, but you must get "outside" the emotions when making decisions. Minimize the reasons for him to just give up and leave, If that is your goal.
BTW What is your goal (or goals)??
The DB formula is simple. Stop whatever moves you further away from that goal and note what things seem to bring it closer towards you.
God Bless
Pic.
All I can say IP is try not to let the anger or any emotion for that matter, dictate your words and actions. I know it's tough, but you must get "outside" the emotions when making decisions. Minimize the reasons for him to just give up and leave, If that is your goal.
That sounds like very good advice, thank you, I am trying really hard to not show my anger - it is very tough though, you're right.
BTW What is your goal (or goals)??
You know, I can't answer this I really don't know, it has been almost 6 weeks now since this kicked off and I really don't know what my goal is. I still don't know how I feel (other than angry) and I'm wondering if this is normal. I can hardly bare to look H in the eye if I catch him looking at me and when I look at him I feel nothing, no sadness, no love, just emptiness and I'm starting to worry that this is it this time - maybe he's hurt me that little bit too much and wiped my love out - or maybe this is still normal feelings this far into the sitch???? I'd love to know - anyone? - should I still be feeling love for him if I want it to work or is it likely to be clouded by pain and anger? When he left 5 years ago it was so much different - I was so devastated and determined we'd stay together and this time I just feel empty and lost The DB formula is simple. Stop whatever moves you further away from that goal and note what things seem to bring it closer towards you.
God Bless
Pic.
this makes perfect sense - if only I knew what my goal is
You know, I can't answer this
I really don't know, it has been almost 6 weeks now since this kicked off and I really don't know what my goal is. I still don't know how I feel (other than angry) and I'm wondering if this is normal. I can hardly bare to look H in the eye if I catch him looking at me and when I look at him I feel nothing, no sadness, no love, just emptiness and I'm starting to worry that this is it this time - maybe he's hurt me that little bit too much and wiped my love out - or maybe this is still normal feelings this far into the sitch???? I'd love to know - anyone? - should I still be feeling love for him if I want it to work or is it likely to be clouded by pain and anger? When he left 5 years ago it was so much different - I was so devastated and determined we'd stay together and this time I just feel empty and lost.
Just six weeks in everything you're feeling is normal. That's why I said - time, you need time. You need the time for the emotions to subside a bit and actually think about your goals. The emotions won't go away completely, but there'll be intervals, when you're not bombarded by them and these intervale will get longer and stronger - with time.
But I also wasn't aware this happened five years ago. When we fall victim to the same hurts a second time done by the same individual, that complicates matters. Twice as angry, twice as sad, twice as confused, second guessing ourselves, emotions get so clouded, it can even be numbing. You may think you feel nothing, but you know it's not the emotionally healthy norm is it?
You're going to have to fake it for a while - being in control that is, 'cause if you decide in the future that you want to try and save the M, you don't want to say or do something in the immediate that will screw that all up.
The advice I got at this stage, which helped me personally (and my XW was hell bent on leaving anyway) was to just "STFU". So I avoided confrontations about her A and R talk and I hung out with friends and comiserated a lot but also backslid a lot. Sooner or later, our psyches just can't take any more and the emotional spigot turns off. Trust me, these feelings won't go on indefinately.
Your first goal should be to get to that peaceful place, where you can think and decide what you want. Heal yourself first; worry about the relationship later.
I was SO stupid last night. I snooped and found "ILY" to OP in her texts. I am beyond crushed. Of course had a Relationship talk and bombed everything. I really hope I didn't screw all the dbing I've been doing up too badly.
Thanks IAP, it helps to know what I'm feeling is normal at this stage.
Yes, I have been in a similar situation before, my H left about 5 years ago and was talking to this same W a lot for the 4 months he wasn't with me but always denied anything happened. I DB'd and he came home after 4 months. Now, all this time later I have found this letter and all these emails to this same W - I feel like the last 5 years have all been a lie.
OK so, I probably shouldn't have but I found OW's email address and after a long time trying to decide what to do with it I sent her a short email saying that I'd found emails between her and my H and would appreciate hearing her version of what the nature of their relationship is. After four days I was kind of thinking what an idiot I'd been and that she wouldn't reply - well she has!!! This is what she has said:
"I'm not really sure what to say. The truth is we talked a lot. We met when I was on shift with him and he was a good listener. I'm not going to insult your intelligence and say there was nothing more to it, we talked about stuff that we probably should've been talking to our respective partners about. If we had both been single I think it would've gone further but we were'nt and it didn't, I couldn't drag my little girl into a situation like that. After I left the shift it went to texting and emailing just to keep in touch then it was a text at birthdays etc. I haven't heard from him since before Christmas I think. I'll be honest and tell you that I did try to text him to ask what was going on but I think he has either changed his number or blocked mine, but I'm assuming you already know that. I'm not sure if apologising will help, but I am sorry for everything."
any thoughts?
I'm no expert but....
If this was the same OW as five years ago, and what she said is true (It went no further) it may be that your H has some infatuation with a fantasy (forbidden fruit, so close and yet so far).
Be very careful. You need to be in control of yourself. That is why I said heal yourself first.
It is a good sign if he blocked her text. That's a positive that he may be serious about the M. Are you?
Don't let him find out you've been in contact with OW. He'll turn that into a trust/privacy issue for sure.
If you decide for saving the M, is he open to MC or Retrouvaille? You're going to need something IMO to help the two of you work things out.
Once you detach from the emotions and get in control, it is easier for you to become the infatuation. If he wants back, you hold all the cards. Play them close to the vest.
God, I'm rambling!
Correct me of I'm wrong anybody.
No, IAP, I feel you are right. IP, I agree to not mention ow email. That was pretty bold of you, though,
and something many of us have felt like doing, but knew better
This is what he's said all along, that he just wrote this letter in a drunken fit of being angry as we'd fallen out and that he aimed it all about her as he's been talking to her and he just thought for that moment how it would be if he had done things with her or wanted to be with her. He says he got up the next day and deleted it all and that was that.
I'm probably doing all this wrong but as I'm the one deciding if I want to work on things not H who's had the EA/PA I do feel confused which bits of DB I should follow, so in actual fact H knows I intended to contact her because I didn't want to make things worse by doing so so I asked him if he would be OK with me doing so. He said he didn't want to have anything to do with it so that I couldn't then say she'd said things because of his wording etc so he doesn't know what I wrote or that she has replied.
We are seeing a MC for the first time on Friday - I gave up waiting for him to book it and just booked one myself.
I'm not sure how I feel now - I'm still in shock that she replied - she seems to confirm some things he's said for example that he hasn't spoken to her in any way since Christmas and that he hasn't been in contact since changing his number.
That was pretty bold of you, though,
and something many of us have felt like doing, but knew better
do you think I shouldn't have VC???
What do you think to what she has said?
Honestly, to me, she sounded like it was more of an EA, than a PA. And that she didn't take it as seriously as he did.
I am sure you probably shouldn't have done it, but you did, and now you have some answers straight from the horses mouth,
so to speak. She could have lied, but I don't know, most ow don't apologize, but are very bold and brazen about their A's with someone else's H.
What did your H say about the upcoming MC appointment? Is he willing to go, or are you having to drag him kicking and screaming?
What part of England are you in? I like to get on google maps and explore different areas. I was able to find the exact house where my parents lived in California before any of us kids were born, when Daddy was stationed there in the Navy, and Mama was a lifeguard there. And they were only about 19 years old, and newly married.
I like the Time's Square video cam, too. People are very interesting.
Don't let it worry you about contacting ow. If ow is telling the truth, your H may never know, but if it a lie and your H says something to you, you will know there is more contact between them. So, the response or lack of response to this may be very telling.
vc
Phew! well it's been a long time, and I'm still dealing with all this and, well not really getting anywhere. I have been going to counselling on my own every week since my last post - H went on his own a couple of times and we've been together a few times too. H still sticks to the same story - he made all the stuff in the letter up. I haven't contacted OW again. I'm so stuck and now my Counsellor is just saying if I decide I want out I need to take my time and make sure I can financially "survive" it. I'm so confused. I have lately felt more loving feelings towards H but stop myself acting on them because of all the pain I feel still. I still think he is lying and had a PA as suggested in his letter and my problem is really that I feel that if he admitted it I could deal with it better and perhaps allow myself to be in love with him and be loved by him, but while ever I continue to think he has but not know for sure and think he's lying I don't think I can get past it and don't think I can stay with him. I have no friends, my family don't want to know as it's "our business" and I just don't know what to do. I think I want to be with him but not if he's lying - there's no way to know if he's lying and it is killing me, little by little, every day, my heart breaks all over again. Is it really possible to get back to a normal loving relationship again with doubt in your head or do they have to come clean/prove the truth for it to work??
Hi, ip, I decided to come here awhile ago to check on some people I hadn't heard from in a long time, and here you are. Sorry you are still dealing with this all. So, you feel H is still lying to you? Have you told him just what you wrote here? I don't know everything that went on with my H and ho, and my H says it was EA, but from correspondence between them I suspect and believe PA. I have had to just get past it, knowing I may never know the whole truth.
What are you doing to GAL, ip? You say you have no friends. Is there some hobby or activity you have always wanted to try, where like minded potential friends will be? You need something outside of H and children. Something that brings you personal satisfaction.
How is your H acting these days? Open and honest with you since the letter? Anything else happen?
signed, your friend, vc
I'm so confused. I have lately felt more loving feelings towards H but stop myself acting on them because of all the pain I feel still. I still think he is lying and had a PA as suggested in his letter and my problem is really that I feel that if he admitted it I could deal with it better and perhaps allow myself to be in love with him and be loved by him, but while ever I continue to think he has but not know for sure and think he's lying I don't think I can get past it and don't think I can stay with him. I have no friends, my family don't want to know as it's "our business" and I just don't know what to do. I think I want to be with him but not if he's lying - there's no way to know if he's lying and it is killing me, little by little, every day, my heart breaks all over again. Is it really possible to get back to a normal loving relationship again with doubt in your head or do they have to come clean/prove the truth for it to work??
IP,
As you can see, I was here a LONG time ago. I don't even know what happened to my posts. Search says they are in success stories, but I can't find them! I still lurk, but rarely post. But, your post really resonated with me, as I went through the exact same thing. All sitches are different, but I can a least share what happened during the last 10 years of mine.
Got the LYBNILWY, I've never been happy, and I'm done speech in November 2001. Wallowed in it for several months and did ALL the DB no no's which just pushed him further away, then found this site in 2002. Got the books, and DB'd my behind off. Like many others, the minute that I learned how to detach and let go, H got scared and came running back.
That's the irony isn't it? As soon as we learn to let go, and stop the roller coaster, as soon as that pain in your gut finally quiets, and you can start eating and sleeping again, THAT'S when they get nervous and start noticing the changes we have made,LOL.
H never would admit his PA. He DID admit to an EA with a co-worker. I KNEW there was more to it, but he swore up and down that "nothing ever happened." Like you, I also had contact with the OW, who also said there was no PA. When H decided he wanted to end the A and save our M, he was "an open book." I was given the OK to ask any and every question, any time I felt the need. And boy did I. I needed to know every gory detail. I felt like I HAD too, in order to forgive and move on. This was in late 2002.
The problem was, that although he was being completely forthcoming (supposedly), and we were back to a loving marriage, I just could not shake the feeling that he was lying. This ate at me until 2005, when the built up anger and resentment got the best of me, and I asked him to leave. We were separated until the end of 2006.
Ultimately, I asked him to come back because the separation was just so hard on our S, who was 6 at the time. We were trading him back and forth across 3 states, and when he was with me, he missed his dad so much. When he was with H, he cried for me every night. It was destroying us. I realized that my inability to let go and forgive was hurting my son, hurting all of us. I still loved my H, but I also hated him for hurting me, and by gosh, I would NOT forgive him until he admitted the truth! BUT, finally I had to decide what was more important in the grand scheme of things. My hurt feelings and self-righteous indignation, or my sons needs. In the end, I realized that I owed it to my S to put my hurt and anger aside, and mostly my PRIDE, so that he could be with both of his parents.
So, he came home in 2006, and we are about to celebrate our 21st anniversary.
The irony here, is that after FINALLY letting go, I started having some medical issues in early 2011. I started having breakouts "down there" (so sorry guys!!!!) and just KNEW that sorry "I can't say it because it will just be censored" gave me herpes. I told H what was going on, and said "Look, I need to know once and for all, did you sleep with her? Because we BOTH know that she is a skank, and I think you have given me herpes. I know it's been 10 years, but herpes can be dormant for up to 20 years! Feelings be damned, this is my LIFE and health we are talking about now, so TELL THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!! And he did.
H totally freaked out. The guilt that he might have given me the gift that keeps on giving, was too much for him to bear. He FINALLY, after 10 years, a 1 year separation, and swearing over and over and over, EVEN WHEN THINGS WERE 200% BETTER, that he had NEVER had a PA, admitted that he did indeed sleep with her once. You want to know what I felt after FINALLY hearing the truth? The truth, that I really already knew in my heart? Nothing.
It just didn't matter anymore. Like you, I also thought that I could never honestly move on until I heard the truth out of him. But in the end, I realized that once I made up my mind to forgive him, and that didn't matter if it was an EA or PA, it was NOT going to be a deal breaker in our marriage, the truth just didn't matter. It has made absolutely no difference in how I feel. I asked why he lied for 10 years. I said "I decided to forgive you in 2006, regardless of what might have really happened, so why didn't you just admit it then?" H said it was mainly his fear of how I might react. That I would throw him out. But most of all, he was just too ashamed to admit the truth. Admitting the PA would make it too real what H really was. It would prove that H was a horrible rotten person, and a lousy father. (his words, not mine).
For the record, it turned out that I had massive diabetes! When I was admitted, my blood sugar was 747, and my H1c was 15.3! (Normal is 90-120, and normal H1c is 6). Apparently it had been so high for so long, that by the time I was diagnosed, I already had nerve damage in my feet....still do. Not a nice feeling! The problems "down there" were a side effect of the high blood sugar! Who knew! LOL..
To wrap this up, I guess what I am trying to say, is once you make that decision to love him and be loved by him, it really does not matter if you know the truth. Although you don't realize it now, by making that decision, you have already "dropped the rope and let go". Accept that for whatever reason, even if it DID happen, maybe he just can't bring himself to admit the truth, and like my H, it may be all about HIM and his fears, and no reflection on you whatsoever.
Don't get me wrong. If I allow myself to think about it, it still hurts. But I'm only human, right? I will probably never be able to FORGET that he cheated. But I have forgiven him. But I did that BEFORE I knew "the truth". So you can say I've been on both sides of the fence. I know how it feels to forgive and move on without knowing the truth, and I know how it feels knowing the truth. And if you really love H, and you can forgive him, it does not matter either way.
Wow, punkin, I read all that holding my breath! Glad to know it wasn't herpes. And I agree with you that forgiving and moving on sometimes means not knowing all the truth. Perhaps my H is ashamed of it, too. I hope so. He should be.
vc
LOL VC, I'm sorry! Going back and re-reading my post, I see I should have cleared that up sooner and not left it hanging out there for so many paragraphs. I tend to be long winded too, so I hope you didn't pass out from holding your breath so long!
Hi VC - great to hear from you again. I remember your sitch from last time I was on and how he would never admit PA. It's great to hear that you got past it. How do you just get past it??
I do have a hobby, which I do all the time when H is at work but it is crafting and so I'm just at home on my own doing it.
H is being perfection itself these days on the whole. He is being much better with the kids (something we have always disagreed on because he just doesn't really discipline them age appropriately - like lecturing them for over the smallest things and every little thing), he is being really lovely helping round the house and arranging things for us to do. He's getting better at talking about the sitch to - doesn't get angry and tries to reassure me.
There was one thing in January. I was looking through his phone and as I got to his phonebook he warned me there was a number in it under just an initial (happened to be same initial as OW by the way!) and of course I freaked out. He made up this whole story about who it was and why the number was just under an initial but eventually came clean and said the story was because he panicked knowing I'd think it was OW. So this made me think he hasn't really learned to stop lying!!! Other than that there has been nothing else.
I really admire you so much for being able to get past this! I hate the not knowing
WOW!!!! Thank you so much for your post PunkinsMom!! All of it just resonated with me so much!
To wrap this up, I guess what I am trying to say, is once you make that decision to love him and be loved by him, it really does not matter if you know the truth. Although you don't realize it now, by making that decision, you have already "dropped the rope and let go". Accept that for whatever reason, even if it DID happen, maybe he just can't bring himself to admit the truth, and like my H, it may be all about HIM and his fears, and no reflection on you whatsoever.
This part in particular! I can see what you mean and it makes me feel calmer that that is how it happens and I suppose in a way I'm half way there as I haven't left or thrown him out and really don't want to do either of those.
Your post also scares me senseless at the same time though!! That your H continued to keep that lie for 10 years!!! Only coughing when he thought he'd given you herpes! woah! I can understand how it got to a point where you separated for a time - I feel like my brain will eat away at me until I explode like that too if I don't deal with this correctly now. One of my underlying fears to letting go of it all happens to be that if he's lying he could give me something nasty
. I have said this to him so many times and he swears he won't give me anything because he hasn't done anything
but I guess that's what he would say! I hope I can be as strong as you and learn to forgive without knowing the truth. It just seems so sad to have to live possibly the rest of my days always wondering - like I feel I'll be on my death bed and still wonder if he lied to me all that time.
I honestly think that if I had not had the whole health scare, that he would have never admitted the truth. I don't understand why they need to hang onto the lies. Especially my H, knowing I had already forgiven him. BUT...what really makes me go hmmmmmmm, is wondering why OW lied about it. I mean, you would think she would have said "Hell yeah, we do it like bunnies" to get me to go ahead and dump him, because at that point, he was trying to break off all contact with her, and she was REALLY digging in. In fact, she stalked him/us for 18 months AFTER he told her they were done and he was staying with me. You would think she would have used any means necessary. She even went so far as to follow him to THREE different jobs, even taking a job as a DUMP TRUCK DRIVER so she could continue working with him LMAO!!! So the fact that she lied and said "I told him I would not sleep with him as long as he was with YOU" just blows my mind! I still shake my head over that one.
I also need to be honest and say that if it had not been for my S, I don't think I would have asked him to come home, but I can't be sure about that 100%. Even so, it took 4 years after he dumped her for me to forgive. So yes, it is a long process when they are NOT willing to tell the truth. And trust me, you will go back and forth questioning your sanity and going, "Well, maybe he IS telling the truth, but then again, he did this and this and this, and so I KNOW he is lying, but then again...." LOL I rode that ride for many years.
I can tell you that now, I rarely even think about it. Thank heavens!! It WILL get better with time.
Wow, punkin, a DUMP truck driver???? Man, she was bonkers!
And, you know, my H told me that they didn't sleep together, because get this- she wasn't that kind of person. Pukepukepuke!!
But, correspondence and phone messages told a different story, so I was driving myself crazy thinking about it, did he or didn't he?
I, like punkin, ip, had to get to a point where I didn't let it rule my every waking thought, and one day, I realized it wasn't even every day I would even think about it. Like your, H, ip, my H started doing things for me around the house, asking how he could help, making a point of asking if I wanted anything, becoming more involved. So, I guess I believe it was his shame and embarrassment of how he would appear in MY eyes that has made him keep that truth from me. And, maybe, one day I will know the truth from his lips, but I don't count on it, nor do I wait for it.
So, what kind of crafts do you do? I love crafting, and think I may get back into candlewicking. And I love doing "Victorian" style crafts. And I want to be on Project Runway. Ok, not the last one, but I would like to just once try my hand at making a really nice article of clothing. And, how are those babies of your doing? Getting quite big now, I guess.
vc
Oh my goodness, I honestly read what you both say in awe, I don't know how you've managed to get past this and I honestly am starting to think I can't. I feel like I despise him for not telling me the truth but then it is only my opinion that he's not tellint the truth isn't it so I could be despising him for nothing - it is really driving me insane!!
Unfortunately we now have a major problem to deal with too. Our poor little girl (3) has just been diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes on Monday
- so now my head is totally swimming with this diagnoses and what it means for my poor baby for the rest of her life, trying to explain all the injections etc to such a little girl who really doesn't understand and I've had to take on so much information in the last few days that I feel like I've done a whole university degree in three days! My head is going to explode! "It never rains, it pours" is not graphic enough for this situation! I feel like it should be "It never rains, it floods!"
Ohhh, ip, I am so sorry to hear about the little one.
My S went through school with a couple of kids who have it. They do quite well, and would go to the nurse's office during the day for treatment or testing. It's complicated to learn all your family will need to know, but you will become an expert at it.
Give yourself time to be able to not think about your H and whether or not it was PA. It's a hard thing to get beyond. Is he showing any signs now of seeing or talking to ow? If not, and he is doing more around the house, with you and the kids, then be try to be happy with how positive that is. You and H may get stressed out with the issues with your D, so try to be kind to each other.
vc
Yes, it certainly is complicated! My head is swimming with it all! She is doing brilliantly bless her, so much better than me!! The toughest part is she talks about "when she's better and won't have to have the injections anymore" - it breaks my heart when she says it and really how can you explain that it's forever to a 3 year old
.
You're completely right about it being an extra stress on me and H - this has highlighted all too clearly how bad we are - we have done nothing but argue since - I admit to causing a lot of it myself - I just can't seem to even be civil. Analysing myself I think it's that a time like this is when you really need a hug and extra support and love from your H and because I'm not ready to be like that with him I'm not getting any of that and so I feel even more angry towards him now - because not only am I angry about what he's done I'm now angry because I'm dealing with this stressful situation without a loving partner too! (if that makes sense - not sure I've explained very well). I really think we're very close to splitting - neither of us can take this anymore. I'm so, so fed up of getting no support and he's fed up of me being awful. I can't seem to stop though. Maybe it's another one of those normal everyone goes through it stages, I don't know.
You are getting no support, he is getting your "awful" moods, so he gives you no support, so you give him awful moods, and so on and so on... Something has got to give one way or another. One of you has to be the bigger person. When a child is sick is one of the most stressful times in a parent's life. Add to that marital strife, and you have a war no one can win. So, you have to call a truce. You, knowing what you do about this site, and knowing that you may have to be the one who starts behaving differently. Then, you can wait to see if a change in your H's attitude follows. Try it and see if it helps. what do you have to lose by trying to be kinder? Bite your tongue if you have to, to keep from arguing. Ask him for what you need. Get him to sit at home with the kids while you go out to de-stress. Even if it's only to the movies or the library. A few moments alone to catch a breath. Try to stay calm. Get a yoga cd or something to help while you are at home during the day. Let the kids pretend to work out, too. Play music for them to dance to, and you, too. Make your day to day life fun with the kids; it makes the day go by faster. Take them on a picnic to the park, or out into the garden. Anything to make your life easier.
How is your little boy doing?
vc
My head is going to explode!
I remember feeling the same way. However, my D was in her teens. Much harder when they're so young. My D was so brittle they couldn't keep her sugars controlled. She was in the ER almost every weekend. The best thing to happen for her was when she was put on an insulin pump. I believe her life has been extended due to the pump. If your doctor has not suggested it, read up on it and ask him if it would be the route to take with your little one.