So, my wife of 8 years gave me the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" talk about 2.5 weeks ago. Despite having been through counseling a couple of times over the course of our marriage, it totally took me by surprise, because every day--right up until the bomb was dropped--our marriage has been filled with affection and love...and really really great sex. We have the type of relationship that other people tell us they envy. We're best friends, and always are affectionate with each other. Always holding hands. Always go to bed in each other's arms. My wife told me that all of that was "real", it's just that she's needed other things as signs of my love for her (I recently read The 5 Love Languages and we could have served as an example in that book) that she hasn't been getting. She needed more quality time for just "us" and needed me to take charge of making that happen. I have to admit, one of my major failings has been taking her for granted...I essentially stopped courting her once we got married. My other major failing has been clamming up and withdrawing when I'm upset or angry about something instead of communicating with her. She told me that was something that wounded her to the core. She felt like she tried and tried to get through to me that she needed to be loved in a way that was different from what I was showing, and that now it's too late...even if I could change, which she says she doubts anyway, it wouldn't change her mind. She says she's been so unhappy for so long, and that while she knows she contributed to it by hiding it (she says she knows one of her issues is that she "stuffs" her negative feelings deep down to avoid conflict), the end result is that she's adamant about wanting a divorce. She's not interested in any counseling together unless it's goal is to help us break it to the kids. When she dropped the bomb, I took some time to think on my own and then came to her and told her I thought divorce was the wrong decision, but that I understood why she felt the way she did. I honestly saw myself in a new light, and can understand why she feels so hopeless...BUT...I also know that people evolve, and I've already gone into counseling on my own to begin making some changes for me. In the meantime, we're still living together, still taking care of our kids together (5 and 8 years), and, ironically, still getting along like the best friends we are. We talk in the mornings before work, at night we lie together on the couch watching tv/movies, and most nights we still go to bed with her arms wrapped around me or holding hands (no sex, no kissing, and no saying "I love you" though). I've recently done some 180's, getting a life (which was apparently a big issue I was unaware of), doing things on my own and with my own friends, and my wife has taken notice. She told me it really makes her happy and feel good to see me doing things on my own, outside of "us." However, the few times I've backslid and discussed explicitly our relationship, she says she still wants a divorce. So I guess I'm wondering, as part of the LRT, should I be stopping all the good stuff we still have? I feel like I should be doing my best to dispense with the "bad" and keep the "good"...but some of the "good" seems like it would be pursuit behavior. Should I be discouraging the affection she shows me? She still wants to put her arms around me in bed, or watch tv snuggled up against me...but part of me feels like I should be giving her a taste of what it will be like to miss the things that she still values in the relationship. The other things is, for me, some of my 180's are definitely pursuit-type things. For example, one of my wife's main complaints is that she can't remember the last time I made a date night for us and handled all the details. So a week after she dropped the bomb, I told her I was going to start doing all the things I should have been doing all along and that she was free to accept or decline as she saw fit. One of the things I did was make dinner reservations for the end of this month and take care of getting a sitter, and told her, again, that if she wanted to go great, but if not that was fine too. I would just go with a friend if she wasn't interested. She took off work so that we can go, so it would appear she's interested... but despite that, and despite all the continued closeness we still seem to have, she still is clear that she wants a divorce. I hope this doesn't seem like to much of rambling mess...I'm just really lost right now and really need some guidance.
I guess I just don't get it. Monday night I went out to dinner with some friends/co-workers instead of coming home right after work like I usually do. My wife definitely took notice, and said it really made her happy to see me doing stuff with other people. The rest of the night was spent together on the couch, looking at some of her photography and just being close.
Tuesday and Wednesday night she called me from work (she works evenings) to tell me she was having a rough time, having lots of stress and anxiety about what's going on. I'm not really sure how to respond when she tells me that stuff. She knows I don't want this, so what am I supposed to say? I just tell her that I definitely know how she's feeling and can totally relate and leave it at that. Last night (Thursday) she came home from work around 10:30 instead of going out after with her friends like she usually does (going out seems to be losing some of its luster for her; she's been hinting at how what's going on between us has put a damper on the fun of going out). We hung out on the deck for 3 or 4 hours, drank a couple of beers and just talked and listened to music. No relationship talk, just us being the good friends that we are. I found myself thinking "How can this person want to end this...this is what solid marriages are based on." Is the friendship and closeness that we still have something I should be discouraging as part of a 180 or LRT? It seems like these are good things...things I should be encouraging/promoting at the same time I'm getting a life for myself.
Wow, Dearme!
The first thing I think of is that your wife doesn't appreciate how much good she has. I mean, it is certainly of importance that she is missing some things that are obviously very important to her, and she deserves to have those issues addressed. But dumping the whole marriage?
I say this because I have seen our marriage in situations where the things she complains of are the smallest of things, and where the positives you have - enjoying each other's company, sex, affection - just aren't there. You seem to have all the components of a beautiful marriage, just requires some assembly.
I wish I could help you with your questions. I understand your dilemma...DBing, especially the 180, seems to focus a lot on not pursuing. Your wife's complaint, it seems, is that she WANTS to be pursued more.
Still, the GAL seems to be working for you. Maybe you should just stop pursuing the issue of marriage. Don't bring the subject up. And do the things she has been wanting, but in doing so, DON'T seek her approval or appreciation, and DON'T try to apply it to the question of whether your marriage should contiue. Most of all, in doing these things (setting dates, etc.), learn to enjoy them, so that you are doing them for yourself, rather than to please her.
I will warn you, I am not a veteran DBer, so you might want to check this against someone who really knows the stuff first.
My best to you. Hope your marriage comes back better than before.
DM,
You want to know which trick works; right?
Well:
Based upon what you said, she is seeing you in a whole new light, right?
Why remove that right now? Is it costing you anything?
You're shining right now.
Oh...learn the fine art of STFU about the divorce.
Other than that, you're building up these good thoughts, that should you seperate or start the process of divorce, or get one...
She will likely miss.
The LRT or going dark or dettaching or any of those ideas that withdraws you from the spouse is more for you. Designed to protect YOU from them, not designed to make them pay.
Doing it with the primary idea to 'show them' is a tactic and a trick. "I'll make them wake up," you might be thinking.
2 1/2 weeks ago is not really a long time. Give yourself some time to make these changes YOU like stick. She isn't likely going to believe they are. I don't not at the moment.
Keep doing what you are doing.
Time and consitency on your part builds her trust in you.
Thanks for the replies guys.
@Psych77, that's the thing...it seems like we really do have the things that a good, long-term relationship is built on. But she's really in this place where the "I'm not in love with you" feeling outweighs everything else...and she feels that way because she saw me kind of shut myself down to living a life of my own over the last few years, and because I didn't give her the quality time that she needed to feel loved. She spent a lot of time and effort loving me the way I needed to be loved, and I gave her the same thing in return...not realizing that her "love language" was completely different than mine.
@Jack_Three_Beans, I appreciate your insight...and I know that you're right. There's just this part of me that wants to scream "This is f'ing crazy! Look at what good friends we are...look at what we have!" I know it would be counter-productive, so I won't do it, but I really wish there was a way to have her read Divorce Busting and/or The Divorce Remedy. She believes that we are in a hopeless situation, and the fact that the marriage has required work, and that she's fallen out of love, means we weren't meant to be together. Meanwhile, I'm reading these books and seeing that what's going on with us makes us a textbook example of what happens with a couple that was totally unprepared for what marriage is really like. I see that there are workable solutions that would bring us to a deeper, more committed type of love...but she sees things as hopeless. And with the kids in the mix, it just all feels really...tragic.
The only way your going to convince her otherwise is through your actions not your words. She needs to see, which will lead to belief.
You can call me JTB or J3B, it's far easier for you. And I'm not calling you Dearme. : )
Well, I know it's against all advice...but I discussed things directly with my wife this morning. All week she's been dropping hints about how anxious she is, what a hard time she's having, how she's ok when she can keep herself distracted but as soon as she's alone with her thoughts she gets a panicky feeling. She's even called me from work or when she's out with friends to tell me how sad she's feeling. I never know how to reply, so I've just been sticking with variations of "well, I can definitely relate" or "I know how you feel", and I just leave it at that. What I really would like to do is tell her that what she's feeling is the consequence of her decision, but I don't. I've been avoiding all talk of the marriage and the divorce and just trying to keep on keeping on.
Last night though, she came home reeeally drunk from a night out with her friends. Apparently she drank a whole lot in a short amount of time, and started getting really angry and belligerent with people, and eventually one of her friends had to force her out of the bar and see her home. When she came in around 2am she told me what had happened, and how she was feeling, and again I just kind of stuck with the "I know where you're coming from" and "I'm sorry you're having a hard time" line, but left it at that and tried the best I could to get back to sleep.
This morning, I just couldn't bite my tongue any longer. When she woke up she was depressed and disappointed in herself, she started tearing-up and talking about how hard everything was, especially with us being in limbo and still living together, so I told her I had a few things to say, that I didn't expect or even want her to respond to, but that I felt like I needed to say just to put it out there so I could forever hold my peace afterward. I basically told her that I understood and respected her decision about the divorce, but that I ultimately still felt it was the wrong one for us because I was learning that we aren't in some abnormal situation...countless other couples find themselves in our very same shoes, and the problems we are having are textbook examples of what people in long-term relationships go through. I told her that my eyes had been opened to a lot of my own shortcomings, but that they weren't core things about me that are unchangeable, they are simply things that I wasn't aware of, and now that I am unaware of them I'm on my own journey of personal growth because--with or without her--I want to be the best person, friend, and father that I can be. I also told her it was no longer a matter of us working on the relationship together, because I had things I needed to do for myself, regardless of what our outcome was, and that was the path I was heading down. I know that right now, to her, they're just words...but they're honest words. They seemed, for the first time, to sink in with her. I don't know that they changed her mind, but that wasn't my intent. I think my intent was more to let her know what was going on with me; why I seem to be doing ok and getting on with my life. She listened without responding, but asked me afterward to just lie with her and stroke her head, and while I did she talked about how disappointed she is in herself for handling things the way she is. I didn't respond to any of that, just kept rubbing her head and her back until she fell back asleep, and then got up and showered and started the day with the kids.
Got a hectic day/night planned; yesterday was the boy's 8th birthday, and tonight is his b-day sleepover with a couple of his buddies, so I've been out with the kids getting everything together for that. When I got home my wife was out getting a few party favors and getting a gift for her own friend's birthday, which she'll be going out to celebrate after the kids go to sleep. She was impressed that I gave her my full blessing to go out again tonight, especially with the sleepover going on, but I figure the kids will be settling in for a movie and bedtime at that point anyway... plus, if we end up separating/divorcing, I figure this is the type of stuff I'll be doing on my own anyway.
Wife came home from her errands and seemed in better spirits. Asked me to follow her into our bedroom, where she hugged me and thanked me for this morning and told me she was feeling much better. Not really sure what to make of that, and didn't bother to ask. I just told her "Your welcome" and left it at that. Part of me thinks maybe she's compartmentalizing us as "good/best friends". I know that's important to her, even after we divorce. Figure there's no point in further discussion; I've said what I felt like I needed to see. Now just sticking to being the person I need to be. Hope it causes a change of heart in her, but I know what I need to do regardless.
Just putting my thoughts down...
So I've been managing to refrain from all talk about the relationship, marriage, and divorce. Just been doing my own things as much as I can, making time for the kids, my friends, and working out. My wife seems to be moving us more toward the "best friends" domain...that is, most of the physical contact we were still maintaining seems to have decreased...but we still hang out and have a good time together. Most nights we still go to bed with her pushed up against me, but it's like she catches herself at some point during the night and moves away from me. On the other hand, I've noticed she's wearing her wedding ring more often; she had been taking it off almost all the time and seemed to be wearing it only when she went to work (I assume to avoid raising the curiosity of her co-workers, but who knows. I've quietly observed this, but haven't commented on it).
She had an appointment with her therapist this morning, which would be the first since dropping the bomb on me about a month ago (therapist went away on vacation the next day and just came back). I'm not sure how it went, as she rarely if ever discusses her sessions...but I get the impression this therapist is not marriage-friendly, so to speak. That definitely concerns me, but I don't discuss it at all. Part of me is expecting another "talk" at some point in the next day or so, based on whatever was discussed in their session today. The other part of me is thinking "no news is good news."
I saw my father-in-law a couple of days ago, and he made a point of telling me that when the separation came he would be there for me to talk to if I needed/wanted. I felt like asking him if my wife had said something to him about it, because she hasn't brought it up with me at all, but I decided not to say anything and just thanked him for the kind words/offer. Feels a bit like purgatory right now.
Make the change for you DM; this way it lasts.
How are you doing today?
I'm doing alright J3B, thanks for asking.
Gotta confess, the stress of this limbo is getting to me, but I keep it to myself.
It's kind of ironic, my wife is the one who makes the decision to bail and she's the one who seems to be having the hard time; meanwhile, I would do anything to keep us together but by all outward appearances I'm doing ok... emphasis on "outward appearances". There are times when I'm dying on the inside, but I'm managing to keep it all in check.
I have to say, "getting a life" has definitely achieved its primary goal of keeping me sane. If nothing else, my wife gave me a real wake-up call regarding the person I had become... I had pretty much stopped participating in life, and now I'm back in it. It feels good too...I just hope it doesn't come at the high cost that it appears it might.
My wife brought up her counseling session when she got home from work Tuesday night. Apparently they discussed how to break it to the kids, and my wife wanted to know my thoughts. The plan is to tell them that mom and dad love each other still, but decided not to be married anymore. I told her that's fine, but we need to be honest with ourselves that this is my wife's decision not mine. I also told her that I don't want to say anything to the kids until we've found other living arrangements... that's a HUGE factor for us; neither one of us is able to find someplace else to live because of our financial situation.
So, it was all a pretty big shock. I'm making the 180's for me...but I still hoped they would have caused some change of heart with her. Maybe it hasn't been long enough yet...or maybe she's truly just done. Wife told me she hasn't made any progress finding a place to live, so that at least buys some more time.
The "how do we tell the kids" talk lead to a long discussion about our relationship. She reiterated that she loves me but isn't in love with me, I reiterated that as far as she and I go, I'll survive the divorce--but not seeing the kids everyday is a wound I'm not sure will ever heal. Had a much more in-depth talk than that, but not sure there's any point detailing it here. I basically just said what I said before...that what happened to us as a couple and where we are in our marriage isn't uncharted territory, and that I believe based on what we still have we could rebuild something better that would last...but that I also understood why she feels the way she does.
So...I guess I'll just keep up the 180's and GAL...it's the only thing keeping me sane. In the meantime, I'm not sure how to proceed with LRT...we're still getting along great...after the talk last night we went and hung out on the couch together and watched tv, with her stretched out across my lap, and we went to bed with her lying up against me as usual. Just not sure what to do next.
I guess that's something I need to figure out...how the heck do you do the LRT when you're still living together, still getting along great, still in the same bed, and have kids? I'm GAL and doing things on my own...but when we're home together we're still like best friends. She said so herself last night. And she re-stated that the sex (althoug we're not having it now) was the one thing we always got right. That's the insane part about this for me... the things that we STILL seem to have are the things that I always thought a long-term, committed, loving relationship are built on.
and that I believe based on what we still have we could rebuild something better that would last
While that is true, it is like "I love you".
You sayingthat reminds them that they don't feel that way...right now.
With a very similar conversation with our kids...
We told them that "We weren't sure we wanted to be married right now." It was a bit more honest without pointing fingers.
Maybe it hasn't been long enough yet...or maybe she's truly just done.
Out of those two choices? Lets go with the one where you continue to keep up these changes you like; the first one.
I'm not sure how to proceed with LRT...we're still getting along great...
Soooooo, why LRT then?
Consider this time FREE MARKETTING, your sales pitch is your deeds and actions. When you LRT, she isn't going to see it as often. Sell yourself now, best face, without you wearing ballons, and signs and saying "Hey? Just curious but have you noticed HOW MUCH I have CHANGED?!?!"
I have to say J3B, you're one of the most insightful people here. I guess I didn't make the connection on my own, but I see what you're saying about the similarities between "I love you" and, to paraphrase myself, "we can make it through this." If that's not where she is, that's not where she is. She knows what I think, so no need to reiterate it...not at this point anyway.
To my credit, regardless of whether it hasn't been long enough yet or she's truly just done, I'll keep up the changes. One thing I realized in all of this is how much I had whittled my life down to just my wife and the kids, and how much it drained her to feel like she was the sole source of my social life. It kind of terrified me to think about how my life would be if/when we get divorced...I would be one lonely guy. So I figured I would turn that around post-haste, so that my social life would already have been kicked into gear if it comes to that; the added benefit being that it serves as a really important 180.
As far as the LRT...I guess I'm assuming that's what you move on to when a WAW seems firm in her decision. But maybe that's not the right move when the relationship is like ours is? That's the confusing thing about this for me...that we still get along so well. There was never any breakdown in the friendship, no alienation or estrangement. One day we were making love and she was telling me she loved me, and literally the next day she was telling me how unhappy she was and she wanted a divorce. And even now, in one breath she'll tell me I'm her best friend, even better than her best girl-friend, and grab hold of my arm and rest her head on my shoulder, and then in the next breath she'll make a suggestion about a possible new place for me to live. I don't know if it's our age difference or what (there's almost 10 years between us), but at this point in my life, I figure if you've got a "best friend" that you also have "great sex" with, and that friend is willing and able to work on and change the things that you're unhappy about...and you have 2 kids on top of that...I just can't imagine choosing to throw that away instead of sticking it out. I guess that type of thinking is counter-productive at this point though...and I should probably stop trying to get inside her head.
Just to get it off my chest, one thing my wife said in our "how to break it to the kids" talk that really got to me, for some reason, is that she felt like our relationship had just reached the end of the road...that there was no where further for us to go together. It just struck me as so sad...and so the opposite of the way I feel. I feel like my life is opening up to so many new things and new possibilities for the first time in years, and for her to feel that we're essentially at a dead end... it's like we're looking at the same thing but seeing two totally different things.
Hang in there. Your situation sounds very similar to mine. We started our "episode" back in April and there was a lot of confusion over the following two months. Three weeks ago we were pretty much at the point of divorcing, and I know my wife consulted with an attorney.
I have been going to therapy and she's joined me a couple of times. I have been upbeat, happy, steady, and strong, and it's working. My wife was a few minutes late to our counseling this week and we started without her, and the therapist told me my wife said to her privately last week that she is now certain she wants to stay married to me and work hard on our relationship. What a turn around in just three weeks!
Keep the faith.... continue GAL'ing, being happy, steady, and strong. Women are attracted to confidence and happiness.
Hey thanks, NTXSadDad. That's really encouraging.
Just thinking about my counseling session today...
My therapist said if my wife is truly co-dependent (something my wife has described herself as being), then a lot of the time for people like her it's "all or nothing." That is, when they're in love they completely ignore any complaints or negative things they feel about the person and the relationship, avoid all conflict, and only allow themselves to focus on the good things...until one day something tips the scale and/or they aren't able to ignore the negative things they may feel about the relationship anymore, and then it's like a switch gets flipped and they "fall out of love" and all they can focus on is the bad stuff to the complete exclusion of any of the positive things that they once felt. That definitely sounds something like our situation. Not that that allows me to shift any type of blame for this on to her, because I surely gave my wife a host of things to be deeply unhappy about...I just wish she had been more direct in communicating what they were to me, earlier in the relationship. Hearing unflattering things about yourself sure hurts a hell of a lot less than hearing "I want a divorce."
Another thing, over the last couple days my wife has made...intimations...about having felt during our marriage that she lost herself...lost her identity and lost sight of who she is and who she wanted to be. And it seems that she's thinking those are things she won't be able to figure out or reclaim within the relationship. It's a little surprising, as I always encouraged her to maintain as much of her own life as she felt like she wanted...but I suspect it has less to do with a perceived lack of "freedom" on her part than it does with her trying to convince herself for so long that she would be happy even if I never changed the things about myself that were, consciously or subconsciously, making her unhappy. At least I know what those things are now though, and I have a solid list of 180's as a result...
Wife went out after work last night; came in around 1:30am and joined me in bed. I haven't made any sexual advances toward her since an ill-fated attempt back on July 4th, and we haven't had sex at all since the day before she dropped the bomb back on June 22nd. Surprise, surprise, she initiated sex with me. I'm not going to take it as anything more than her being tipsy and horny...but d@mn it was nice to experience that again. The past month has been the longest dry spell I've had during the last 8 years.
So I haven't mentioned to my wife anything about the fact that we had sex, or what it might mean as far as our relationship...but I do find it a little puzzling that she hasn't brought it up herself...even if just to tell me it doesn't mean anything has changed or whatever. Just continuing with the 180's/GAL, and making a real point (quietly) of giving her her space.
My time at home is mainly spent getting stuff done around the house/yard and keeping the kids entertained; she's still helping to some degree with that stuff, but I've noticed (and she's acknowledged on her own) that she's been spending a lot of time keeping herself distracted by screwing around on the internet/playing games on her iPod. My tact has been to just "let" her do whatever she feels like she needs to be doing right now.
It's weird...for someone who is ostensibly still firm on getting a divorce, she doesn't act like someone who is detaching. She still wants to be close when watching tv/movies together, still puts herself up against me when going to bed, still wants me to give her back rubs and massages... Is this a case of her having her cake and eating it to? I don't know...but I feel like the best thing to do is continue creating an environment that she'll miss if she decides to leave, rather than creating an environment devoid of all of those things. Still, I do as much as I can to let her come to me rather than pushing myself on her.
If any women read this... I sure would love any insight into the female mind that you can offer. The sex thing has really thrown me for a loop, but I'm still refraining from commenting or asking her about it. But I do think it's a little strange, to say the least, that she hasn't said anything about it herself.
I know your curiosity is killing about about the meaning of the encounter the other night, but I'd definitely refrain from bringing it up at all. I'm not even sure I would talk about it if she finally does bring it up.
I had that happen to me as well, recently. All I can really say is, take it as an encouraging moment, suggesting that there is *some* feeling there, but don't make anything more of it. If you do, you will start looking for it, pursuing her, and that is always a big problem.
Sounds like that is what you are doing. That's my advice. Have a life. Be available for her, but not TOO available. In other words, don't be waiting for her to need you, but if she seeks you out show her that you are willing to make an effort to make time for her in YOUR schedule. And have enough of a life that it IS an effort to do so.
I'm glad we're all here for each other.
Well, my wife came home from dinner at her parents last night, and she told me that they had offered to let her and the kids move in with her. For the most part I just listened without commenting, but inside I was thinking "Well, that's just great, she gets to continue living a pretty carefree lifestyle, hanging out with her friends, drinking at the bars after work, live-in babysitters, rent paid for, food paid for..." I get the impression her parents aren't aware that she's pretty much loving me up most of the time, and that they think they're rescuing her from a situation of alienation and estrangement. Kind of irritates/aggravates me...but I guess it's just another thing that's out of my hands.
The sex did come up. Funny, she says she was so drunk that she didn't even remember who initiated it (odd, considering she drove home that night and didn't seem that drunk at all), and that the next day she didn't know what to think or how to handle it so she just didn't say anything about it. As far as all the other closeness we've been having, she says that's just because we're still "such good friends". I didn't have too much to say about that either, other than to point out that I don't know any good friends, male or female, that have the type of closeness that we have...you know, guys don't snuggle with good friends, even if women do.
Other than that, she said that she wishes she could get over the hurt and pain and resentment that she's felt over not having her needs met over the course of the marriage, especially since she know she contributed to it some by not communicating very well... but she feels like she can't get over that hurt/pain/resentment and because of that she knows the relationship "isn't meant to be."
So, where to go from here...I'm not quite sure...
I guess I'm thinking about the LRT and "going dark"...to whatever extent you can do that when you still live with someone and have kids together. I feel like up until now I've been GAL and doing 180's, and I'll continue to do those for me... but as far as she and I go...I don't know. Last night she tells me she's planning on moving out and that she feels just as done as ever, then this morning she wants to hug and get a back rub, and then calls me from her cell phone while on her way to her counseling appointment "to tell me something really funny" she just saw. Being just "good friends" doesn't work for me...but I also still want to save my marriage and don't want to do anything to convince her that moving out is the right decision. What at total bucket of suck.
I don't know...maybe being "just good friends" is what this is all about. Having the strength to be "just good friends" regardless of how this ends, and by having that strength, saving (hopefully) the marriage.
Wife went out after work last night; came in around 1:30am…..surprise, surprise, she initiated sex with me
Last night though, she came home reeeally drunk from a night out with her friends
One day we were making love and she was telling me she loved me, and literally the next day she was telling me how unhappy she was and she wanted a divorce.
my wife is the one who makes the decision to bail and she's the one who seems to be having the hard time.
I've noticed (and she's acknowledged on her own) that she's been spending a lot of time keeping herself distracted by screwing around on the internet/playing games on her iPod. My tact has been to just "let" her do whatever she feels like she needs to be doing right now.
Fine, I will be the first to suggest perhaps she is having an affair. You have to admit she has not been honest with you about her feelings before, you cant assume she is being honest about them now. You need to do some snooping to find out what is really going on, because once she moves out you will be down to few options.
Here is what snooping does to you, it becomes an addiction of sorts.
You start looking and you don't find something, so you keep looking and looking, you confront her with phone numbers from her phone you don't recognize, you start grilling her. You look crazed. Onve you start thinking she is having one? It doesn't matter if she is or not, because you think so. And either she is lying and breaking your heart or she is being honest and breaking your heart.
Is she having an affair?
Maybe, maybe not.
A marriage can thrive after an affair. Affairs do not mean the end of a marriage. It takes alot of strength on your part though.
So is she? Isn't she?
Screw those questions right now, the real question is can you handle it?
If she moves out? You still have options, they are just different.
Thanks, Jack. I tend to agree with you on all fronts.
There was a time when I considered her having an affair a possibility. I would be naive not to have considered it. But I don't really think she has had one, nor do I think she's having one now. At the beginning of this year, when she was acting in a way that, for the first time in our marriage, made me think she might be having one, I asked her point blank and told her why I was suspecting it. She broke down and cried and was beside herself for having "made" me think that, and essentially agreed that she was behaving in a way that would make a reasonable person think he was being cheated on, and that's how I learned about how unhappy she was. She said in a way she was cheating, but it wasn't with another man, it was essentially with another "life", one that she was living with her friends because she felt like our relationship wasn't providing much of an alternative, and it was easier and more fun to forget about how unhappy she was at home and just spend as much time as possible with her friends.
If she is having, or had, an affair I would forgive her. I understand the circumstances that would have led to it.
The facts as they stand, as they've been explained to me: For almost the entirety of our marriage, my wife has needed and wanted things from me (some practical/tangible, some emotional) that she hasn't been getting. She feels like she tried and tried to communicate those needs to me, but couldn't get through, and so she ended up trying to convince herself that she could be happy without them, and that she had to be happy without them because I wasn't capable of providing them. Eventually she couldn't convince herself of that anymore, and decided she wanted a divorce because she couldn't stay in the relationship and continue being unfulfilled.
She's seeing some real changes in me, some real 180's, but she doesn't believe they're permanent, and she thinks that even if they are, she doesn't believe all of the pain and anger and resentment that she feels as a result of going for so long without her needs being met will ever go away. And she has said she refuses to put her heart out on the line for this relationship again because she feels like she'll just get hurt again. So her decision to get a divorce stands. And now that her parents have offered her a place to live, we're not "stuck" in the same house anymore, so she's ready to go. In about a month is the timeline she's given me. I still have no idea where the heck I'll go. Can't afford a place on my own in this town, and can't find an affordable place that will allow me to have my kids.
Care to elucidate on my options if she does move into her parents, Jack? Or if I should continue on as I have been during the time that we're still together?
The puzzling thing is, despite talking about all of this last night, this morning she still asked if I would give her a back rub, and still wanted me to walk down to the beach with her and the kids before lunch today.
You seem to think that her parents are taking her back as 'child' free of responsibility and are going to coddle her with milk and cookies.
Maybe they will, maybe they are enablers. Even if they are...
They are going to have expectations about her, and what she should be doing, it is not the bed of roses you think it will be.
I'll bet cashy money they are going to see a side of her that begins to make them feel more for you.
As for the options?
Being away from the constant drama allows you to focus on you and your growth.
"But how does that save my marriage?"
Save yourself first. GAL, 180's, dettachment. Grow strong, like the guy you are, become the guy able to stand on his own, who wants someone next to him, but doesn't NEED someone next to him.
You save yourself? You got the best tools to save your marriage...if you choose to.
You seem to think that her parents are taking her back as 'child' free of responsibility and are going to coddle her with milk and cookies.
Maybe they will, maybe they are enablers.
Oh, they're enablers for sure... but I get your point. That shouldn't be one of my concerns right now.
Oddly enough, as she was getting ready for work today we were talking about her potentially having a new work schedule. And while I'm making myself as amenable to it as possible without bending over backward to make it happen, I noted that a lot of it was going to depend on where I'll be living, because accommodating our schedules and covering child care when we're living together in the same house is much different than trying to do it in two separate households...particularly if I end up having to live somewhere that isn't exactly right down the road. At any rate, her response was to suggest that maybe "we'll find a way to keep living together...at least until the end of the year." I'm not going to read anything into it, because it's certainly open to multiple interpretations, but I find it interesting that in less than 24 hours she went from "I want to be out within a month" to that.
It seems like over the last couple of days my wife has been pulling away some... less physical contact when we're hanging out on the couch together and when we're going to bed/falling asleep. I'm not mentioning it to her of course, just observing it. Just staying upbeat, agreeable, keeping up the 180's, and giving her her space.
So it seems like the distancing on her part is continuing. We still get along well enough, it just seems like there's a conscious effort on her part to reduce what physical contact/affection we had left. I'm noting it mentally, but of course not saying anything.
I'm starting to wonder about my tact though. Is there a particular way to deal with a WAW that has stated she wants to remain friendly? I'm keeping up the 180's and GAL, and sort of going about my life with a "whatever happens I'll be ok" attitude, but as of yet it doesn't seem to have brought any changes in my wife's desire to split (we seldom talk about it though, so I never really know what she's thinking at any given time). The last time it was discussed she said she refuses to open her heart up again to the risk of being hurt (essentially doesn't believe that any positive changes won't be permanent and isn't willing to risk it to find out).
I'm also starting to wonder about her having an "anytime midlife crises". I think that might be an issue here for her.
As far as the anytime MLC, she's been mentioning stuff about feeling like she lost herself in our marriage...lost her identity and is in the process of reclaiming it.
Something I've been thinking about a lot...I think I've asked this, but not sure if I've gotten a concrete answer... what do you do if some of your 180's are pursuit behaviors? For example, some of my wife's main sources of unhappiness are that I never scheduled dates, never planned a vacation, and in fact never made plans in general...I always tend to do things on the spur of the moment. I'm more than ready to change that; I would love to schedule a date night and plan a vacation, but doing so would make it appear that I was pursuing her, and that doesn't seem to be the right course of action since she still seems firm on her decision to divorce. She's still more than willing to do stuff with me and the kids (taking them to the beach for the day on Sunday as a matter of fact), but balks at anything that's just me and her. As a matter of fact, we have dinner reservations for tomorrow, that I had made back when the bomb first dropped in an ill-advised attempt to show that I was capable and willing to make the changes she needed to see, and over the last couple of days she's been displaying some ambivalence about going. Not sure how to handle that...just go ahead and go, or cancel them... maybe suggest I go with someone else? It seems like maybe I should shelve the 180's that have to do with her, at least for now, and just focus on the ones that have to do with me (mainly, pursuing my own interests again; reconnecting with friends; becoming more generous, patient, and tolerant; not worrying about/asking too much about what she does).
Hey DM
I almost thought you were my H for a bit! I'm a former LBS who has now become a WAW. My H and I are having and in-house separation right now, where he is in the spare room. It relieves some of the pressure from me.
My H would never make arrangements for our social life. I ended up being the cook, accountant, social organiser, cleaner, PA .. you name it ... all while he sat about not really planning anything at all. I've made the arrangemnts for ALL our wedding anniversaries, while he contributed a v little.
I can't say what's going on in your W's mind, but my mind is FULL of resentment. I really wanted him to step up and be a man, to take more control, I begged for it for about 3 years, but nothing worked. I would still love him to do so, but right now each time I look at him i want to kill him (which ain't good). I just need a bit of space to calm down, then i want to see him making small, regular and consistent changes. I don't want to see him giveup at the first hurdle. My biggest fear is that I take him back, he lets out a big sigh of relief, stops trying to change and reverts back to lettimg me do everything again.
Am I testing him? In a way, but I'm SO sick of asking him to change, then him paying a bit of lip service to it for a week or two then me having to ask again. I'm not his mother. I don't have kids and never wanted them. I feel like I'm married to one though and it breaks my heart. I want to be looked after sometimes too. I'm not superwoman
DM, 180's that look like pursuit...
nice razor's edge there huh?
There is a difference between:
"please, please, please come to dinner with me next week, I even booked a hotel room!"
and
"I made dinner reservation next Thursday at Valdamir's, they are for 7:30 you'll have enough time to get ready. I'd enjoy your company."
You can try something like that, if you keep getting shot down, you'll have your answer. If she accepts, you also have an answer of sorts.
Change and monitor.
Hey Jen_Jam, I really appreciate that bit of insight. What an interesting perspective you must have, having been both LBS and WAW. I wonder about the in-house separation. Oddly, given her stated feelings, my wife and I are still in the same bed (she said she prefers it, and I know I sure as heck do too), and for the most part get along like a happily married couple...minus the sex and declarations of love. I find it odd; my wife attributes it to the fact that "even though she's not in love with me any more, I'm still her best friend."
In acknowledging that my wife may truly just be done and nothing is going to change her mind, she has said on more than once occasion that what brought her to her decision was essentially what you wrote: that I would pay lip-service to changing, and then within a couple of months (if not weeks) things would be back to the way they always were. As a result, she's just not willing to take that risk again. If only I had known then what I know now about DB'ing, backsliding, and keeping up the changes...and proper communication.
In my defense, I've always done my fair share of the cooking, cleaning, and child care...but when it came to where it really counted...my wife's "love language"...that's where I totally failed. What's even worse is that, at some point, I think I convinced myself that because I did contribute in so many other ways, it was ok if I wasn't measuring up when it came to my wife's need for me to take control of some of those social things and, most importantly, carving out quality time for just the two of us. Sadly, it took the "I'm done and I want a divorce" 2x4 to make me hear and understand just exactly what it was she was trying to tell me.
Excellent advice as always, J3B... to my credit, the invitation was extended much more along the lines of the latter scenario you posed than the former.
That she accepted at all is, I suppose, a good sign...one that I won't read too much into though. I know that remaining friends is important to her...and she also voiced her concern that she may be doing something wrong; that is, by going to dinner or by agreeing to any kind of "date"-type activity, she may be giving me the wrong impression that she's changed her mind, and that somewhere down the line when we're separated and/or divorced I'll argue that she gave me the wrong impression or tricked/confused me by doing these types of things with me.
The only thing I could think to tell her in response was that, through my own efforts and with the help of the counselor I've been seeing on my own, I'm beginning to lead my life the way I should have been all along...not so much for her (although I clearly would like her to be the beneficiary of it), but because regardless of what happens between us, I want to be the happiest, healthiest person I can be, and part of that process includes taking charge of MY social life.
Looking forward to dinner out tonight. Seems like my wife is too. I'm not going to read anything into it, since I'm just going with the "good/best friends" thing for now, but she remarked last night that we had a fun weekend planned (meaning dinner tonight and taking the kids to the beach tomorrow), and I agreed.
Unfortunately, I made the mistake of mentioning a few things regarding the divorce after she brought up her new work schedule again (I briefly mentioned how we might need to change our schedules again once we're not living together anymore, and noted a couple of other things I would need to get for her like car title/insurance info). I quickly realized my error and dropped it, then changed the subject, but it definitely put a damper on the rest of the evening. We both were pretty quiet and a bit in our own spaces after that (mentally, that is, as we went and watched a little tv on the couch together after that, and then went to bed).
Privately, I'm experiencing quite a bit of remorse...8 years...8 years married and this is the first time that I took the initiative and made reservations and set-up a babysitter so that my wife and I could go have dinner together. No wonder she feels like no matter what I do now, her pain and resentment won't subside...or that even if it does it doesn't matter because she's done with not getting what she wants (of course, I'm done with not giving her what she wants...but there's no convincing her of that, at least not with words. Potentially not even with actions). That, my friends, is why--in a nutshell--my wife wants a divorce; because we've been married for almost ten years and it took hearing that she wants a divorce to make me understand the little things she wants and needs in order to be happy.
Had an interesting talk with my FIL today. I'm definitely not "recruiting" him, but we're buddies, and we hang out/talk, so "stuff" comes up even without me bringing it up...especially since he went through something similar with his wife 20 or so years ago, only she had a confirmed affair.
At any rate, he said he would always support his daughter no matter what (unless he found at she had cheated on me and then lied about it), but that he was pulling for us and hoped we would be able to turn things around. He said he admired the approach I was taking and felt like I had a good perspective on things. Made me feel good. He said when he and his wife we're going through there tough times, he decided he would give himself a year to see if he could save things. Of course, in their situation my MIL was committed to working things out too, unlike my wife...but still...I figure, going by his timeline, I'm only a month and a couple of days in to what could be a year-long (at least) process. The work has just begun...
Had a great weekend. Dinner and drinks on Saturday was awesome. I can't believe it took 8 years for me to make something like that happen. Wife remarked several times about "Where has this dearme been hiding...what happened to him...where has he been." We had a really good time talking and laughing, and by the end of the night she was leaning up against me and holding on to me. Then Sunday we took the kids to the beach and again had a really good time. Sunday night at home she mentioned what a fun weekend it had been. The hardest part about it is having to assume that it doesn't change her mind about the divorce, and that I can't get my hopes up. Just trying to take it for what it was; a first step of many toward showing her what the new relationship between us could be like. Hope I get the opportunities to show her so much more. Hope it eventually opens up her heart again.
Assume the worst, hope for the best, and KEEP DOING WHAT WORKS!
Sounds like you had a great time. How could you keep that sort of thing up? Your W indicated she enjoyed it and was wondering where that "dearme" had gone...
Give her more... she likes it... and if she really wants an answer, just say something like "I've been working on re-awakening him and getting him to stick around".
Sounds like you had a great time. How could you keep that sort of thing up?
In a word, "babysitter". Certainly there's a host of things I need to turn around (and have been making good progress toward), like doing more things on my own/not having my
entire life focused on her, but if there's one thing that has become painfully obvious to me, it's that my wife needed to feel like she was worth the effort to set up regular dates with her, without her having to do the leg-work.
Right now, in addition to the more "me" centered 180's, I think one of the best things I could do is pick a day once a week...or even just once every couple of weeks...heck even just once a month, and get a sitter so that the option is there for us to do something together without the kids, whether it's a night out or just the ability to go take a walk together alone. I think whether or not she takes me up on it is less important than showing I'm willing and able to take the initiative to provide the opportunity. And I think, even if she doesn't take me up on it at any given time, then I've at least created the opportunity for each of us to go do something on our own without the other having to watch the kids.
Good job, dearme. Just be careful to let it all be sincere and heartfelt and not come off as manipulative. Our WAS's can sniff out insincerity like a bloodhound, and once they do, they will pull back faster than you can blink.
There is a BIG difference between setting a day aside and letting your W know the day is free if she wants to do something...
and PLANNING a day to do something...
Going on a date with your W is no doubt enjoyable for her, but as you have suggested, the fact that you took the lead on this one and got it all planned out and all she needed to do was... a) agree to go, and b) show up...
To me, this appears to be what she might have appreciated more than just an enjoyable evening with DM... I could be wrong, of course...
Think clearly on this, does your W like spontaneous or is she more of a "routine" girl? You seem a bit "all over the place" as far as how often you might do "date night". And that could be seen as non-committal...
But do something that you CAN commit to and stick to it. Now and into the future, indefinitely...
And be respectful of your W's likes, maybe she likes to mix things up, maybe she likes to go to the same place, over and over and over...
One time does not mean it's "working", but the results certainly appeared positive.
The only way you will know it is truly working is to do it again and see if the results are the same...
DM,
Good for you a nice response.
Go slow and steady with it, do not go overboard, once a month? Better than Once a week right now, or three times a week.
You don't want to overwhelm her, and you want this change to be real, easier to maintain a once a month scenario.
Enjoy the moment, but to do not affix expectations to it afterward. That was yesterday, today is a new day to prove yourself. Do not rest on your laurels, and do not look to far down the road; in this? Living in the Now serves you better.
There is a BIG difference between setting a day aside and letting your W know the day is free if she wants to do something...
and PLANNING a day to do something...
Going on a date with your W is no doubt enjoyable for her, but as you have suggested, the fact that you took the lead on this one and got it all planned out and all she needed to do was... a) agree to go, and b) show up...
To me, this appears to be what she might have appreciated more than just an enjoyable evening with DM... I could be wrong, of course...
That's a really good point, Kaffe Diem... I think, in my wife's case she really appreciated
both the fact that I set aside a night ahead of time for just us
andthe fact that I took care of making actual plans. Two separate complaints of hers have been that I (1) very very rarely carved out time for just the two of us, and (2) that when we did go out and do something it was always at the last minute...she never had anything to look forward to.
She has said in the past that it's important to her ability to feel connected to me that I make an effort to spend time with just her, even if that's just going for a walk or hanging out on the deck at home, but that she also wants to be with someone who is willing to take charge of "making things happen"...to pick a date, time, and place and to take care of all of the necessary arrangements. I think, for her, the important thing will be mixing it up...alternating between setting aside time for the two of us, without the kids, to do "whatever"--even if that ends up just being a walk through the neighborhood and a night off from being parents, but then to also make plans for things that she can mark on the calendar and, as you said, all she'll have to do is agree to go and show up for.
Must be completely mindful of what Jack said above ^^^^^^^^^^...
TOO much and she may see it as pursuing... she might LIKE that, but it serves your M little if she doesn't have to put in a little effort to work on the M as well. Otherwise YOU get to live in an M where YOUR needs are not being met.
Because you BOTH have contributed to where your sitch is, right now.
Might be worth reviewing Chapters 3 and 4 of DR. Knowing what YOU want and ASKING for what you want.
Because every M is a balance between giving and receiving...
Receiving is NOT taking...
Taking:
"I want flowers every week, I actually DESERVE flowers every week, so give me flowers."
Receiving:
"I SOOO love getting flowers every week and I SOOOO appreciate that you are considerate enough to do that, knowing you could choose not to."
My W is a taker. She has expressed MANY times over the past year that she DESERVED so much more from me. Without acknowledging that which I DID for her, for the kids, for the home... for the family...
Be clear about what you would LIKE and want, but NOT what you think you deserve...
In the same token, it does appear that your W appreciates that you took the lead and made plans and spent time with your W... that she does not feel she DESERVED it...
Make sense?
That makes absolute sense, Kaffe.
For now, I was thinking along the lines of scheduling a sitter twice a month, and on one of those dates planning the day/night out myself--choosing the place, making the reservations, etc.; then, on the other date, I figured the kids would be covered by the sitter, but I would leave our options open so that we could do whatever my wife wanted whether it be going out somewhere or taking a day-trip or just being at home alone together without having to watch the kids...or maybe even if she didn't feel like doing something with me, just taking it as an opportunity for us to each get some alone time. Twice a month is a frequency that I think I can maintain consistently, now and forever.
As far as giving/receiving and asking for what I want...I think those are sage words you've written. I have to confess though, at this point in time I'm not sure I'm ready to ask for anything. My assumption is she's still got one foot out the door, and I'm wondering if it might be better to wait for some signs of stabilization first.
To my wife's credit, she was the giver in the relationship...so much so that she was actually afraid to ask for what she wanted. She tried to deny what she wanted and needed from me because she thought that to ask for those things meant she wasn't grateful for the things that I did provide. Or, when she did ask, it was almost always in kind of an indirect, beat-around-the-bush kind of way that never quite sank in with me. So, I guess if I was going to ask for something from her, it would just be that she communicate with me bluntly and directly...to ask for what she wants and needs in no uncertain terms. That's a discussion we've already recently had though, and really right now that's all I want from her. For the overwhelming majority of our marriage, my needs were being met by her, but up until not too long ago I've been quite in the dark about the extent to which I wasn't meeting hers.
Nice, sounds like a great plan. And mixing it up as once a month your plans, once a month her choice... great idea...
On the "date night", how do you plan on letting her know? Certainly you don't plan on springing it on her.
How would you phrase the "ask"... because it ties a little into the second part... of knowing what you want and asking for it...
because "date night" is not just for your W, it's for you, too... it is certainly something that you want, because you want to do something nice for your W but you also enjoy it...
So again... how are you planning on asking? The words...
I certainly get that you do not want to ask for anything at this time. I'd guess you don't even know what you want at this point... which is why asking is the second part of the equation, first part being figuring out what you want...
Also on that point, I would have been pretty happy with the status quo of my M. I was... mostly... happy... at least, I thought I was... I certainly DO KNOW some of the things that I want on the remote chance that we ever get to that point. But since I'm assuming we're not even gonna get there, I don't bother deciding what I want...
Here's the thing... are you wondering if you'll even get that far? To the point where you might need to know what you want and ask for it? Because... if things with your W don't work out (knock on wood)... you'd need to know what you might want if you get into a new relationship...
Which leads to the last part of your post... that your W was the giver...
And here's the thing on that...
Sure... she gave... she knew she gave... you knew she gave... and I'm sure you appreciated what she gave... and gave... and gave... until she got done with giving...
And... did she give the things you wanted and asked for? Because she was likely giving the usual things in a marriage... the things that most people expect in a marriage... but if she was really giving you want you wanted... do you think you would have maybe paid her a little more attention...? and reciprocated with giving her the things SHE wanted...?
Because... that's how it works...
If we give something they really, really want... they DO appreciate it... and there's a strong, human tendency to want to give back something just as meaningful to the giver, in return...
Your "darkness" might very well have been that the things she gave were truly not meaningful to you in a way that was profound enough for you to reciprocate...
Possible...?
On the "date night", how do you plan on letting her know? Certainly you don't plan on springing it on her.
How would you phrase the "ask"... because it ties a little into the second part... of knowing what you want and asking for it...
because "date night" is not just for your W, it's for you, too... it is certainly something that you want, because you want to do something nice for your W but you also enjoy it...
So again... how are you planning on asking? The words...
I thought I would do something like J3B suggested--letting her know a couple of weeks ahead of time that I made the reservations, where, and when, and tell her that I would really like/enjoy her company. I figured this allows her to decline if she is feeling pressured/pursued and gives her time to decide, while also implying (correctly) that if she decides not to go, I intend to go anyway and will just go with a friend instead.
Did she give the things you wanted and asked for? Because she was likely giving the usual things in a marriage... the things that most people expect in a marriage... but if she was really giving you want you wanted... do you think you would have maybe paid her a little more attention...? and reciprocated with giving her the things SHE wanted...?
Because... that's how it works...
If we give something they really, really want... they DO appreciate it... and there's a strong, human tendency to want to give back something just as meaningful to the giver, in return...
Your "darkness" might very well have been that the things she gave were truly not meaningful to you in a way that was profound enough for you to reciprocate...
Possible...?
Definitely possible... but I think what sums up our dynamic more is that she did give me what I wanted/needed, but because she was so...I don't know...ambiguous...equivocal...about what she
really wanted/needed, what I ended up giving back to her, the way I showed her I loved her, was to return what she was giving to me. That is, I was loving her in the same way that I like to be loved.
You know, the whole concept of love languages was something totally foreign to me until just recently, but it very nicely sums up a big part of what went on in our marriage. It had never occurred to me that the way I like love to be shown to me (physical touch, words of affirmation) might not be the way my wife needed love to be shown to her (quality time). So I was inclined to give back to her as much as I could, because of how much she gave to me... But I gave in a way that came naturally to me. I gave her what I wanted/needed, not realizing that as much as I gave, it wasn't what she was wanting/needing. And because of my wife's issues, the thing that she contributed to this, she didn't feel comfortable/worthy of telling me that she needed something other than what I was giving. I think she felt like she should just be happy with what she got...that to ask directly for something different would mean she didn't appreciate what she already was getting.
And I think where she is in the marriage right now is that it's all been too much work, she's tired of the effort, she doesn't believe that any changes in me or our marriage can be permanent, and perhaps most unfortunately she's made a decision that she's not willing to take the risk. That's what gets to me the most...knowing that she has really intentionally walled off her heart and has made a cold hard rational decision about this.
On the "date night" reservations... if you are planning on taking a friend if the W does not go... make sure that none of the ones you plan are too... romantic... lol...
And seriously, while I don't think the corporate, fast food chains are good for a date night, I would also recommend against a five star restaurant with secluded, darkened seating even if your W DOES go... not looking for romance here... more like... companionship / friendship...
Thank you for noticing about your giving... and she was likely doing the same... the only difference in YOUR mind is that YOU appreciated what she gave and YOU FEEL she did not appreciate what you gave...
We CAN NOT mind read... but...
we can certainly make decent guesses by being more aware...
My W always told me that "had you been paying attention, you would have noticed that I was not happy"...
While that's a canned, WAS comment, there's a certain truth to it... If I knew more about her, studied her, understood her LL and so on... I might have been more responsive to a noticed change...
Yet, on the other hand... that would not be necessary, maybe... Maybe all I needed to do was pay more attention to GIVING to my W in a way that was meaningful to her...
A bit of a difference from mind reading...
Just putting some thoughts down...
Being at work is hard. It seems so much easier to be upbeat and maintain the PMA when I'm at home, but something about being in the office...it's hard to keep my mind focused on work.
It's only been a little over a month, but feels like it's been ages. I'm really missing the things that used to help get me through the day--leaving in the morning with a hug/kiss and "I love you," the texts during the day from my wife saying she was thinking about/missing me, the knowledge that I would be coming home to open arms... That's been one of the hardest things about all of this; having to quit that stuff cold-turkey. One day I was getting all of those things (and so much more), and the next day it was all gone... It's amazing how badly I miss kissing my wife.
I paid good lip-service to not letting the success of our "date" get my hopes up, but I guess when it comes down to it...I was hoping to see more signs that the tide was turning. I need to make sure I get a grip on that...keep reminding myself of my father-in-law's 12 month timeline...and the fact that it took years to get my wife and I to where we are, so it's going to take months to (hopefully) get us somewhere better.
On the bright side, she came home from her counseling session yesterday, and shared with me what they talked about (very rare for her to ever divulge the content of her counseling sessions). Rather than focusing on what's going on with us, they apparently discussed her unrealistic expecations of herself regarding the housework and being "super-mom", which led to a conversation between my wife and I about how I could help her with some of that...Not that I don't already do my fair share of the cooking, cleaning, and parenting, but my wife told me (and I validated/acknowledged) that she felt like she couldn't ask me to do specific things around the house because I had given her the impression that my feelings were that I already did enough to help out in addition to taking care of all the yard work, car maintenance, and the other traditonally "husband-oriented" chores. I told her I never wanted her to feel like she couldn't ask for more/different things than I was already doing, but that I could see how my behavior would make her think that.
Ultimately, I told her, she always has the right to say to me, "Dearme, I appreciate and love you for doing A, B, and C, but I need more help around the house with X, Y, and Z." I said that any time there's something she wants or needs, all she has to do is let me know clearly and directly, and I'll do whatever I can to make it happen. So all in all it was a good talk. The rest of our interaction was good, if somewhat platonic...she ended up making me lunch and later I got an unsolicited hug from her; so I'll take what I can get. Still, what I want more than anything is for her to tell me that, while everything is far from "fixed", she's changed her mind about moving out and divorcing and is ready to commit to building a better relationship. That's what I'm doing on my own right now, building a better relationship, but it will feel so much better if we can get to a place where we're doing that together.
couple things here, DM...
First, hope and expect are two different things... hope is allowed, but expectations often let us down... because we cannot control an outcome... no matter how hard we work towards it...
On your W's "super-mom" complex... that's her stuff... I'm not sure that offering to help will remove her self doubt about being a great mom... in reality, it might have the opposite affect because no, she needs help and therefore cannot live up to the image she wants of herself as being a great "mom"...
Only she knows what that looks like, to her...
It is possible that the lost connection between the two of you has nothing to do with you doing your "fair share" around the house... but rather with your connection with each other...
just thoughts...
It is possible that the lost connection between the two of you has nothing to do with you doing your "fair share" around the house... but rather with your connection with each other...
I think you're right; that is, I don't think the lost connection is the result of me not doing enough... I think it's the result, in part, of her feeling like she couldn't ask me to do any more than I was already doing...or, perhaps even more to the point, that she couldn't ask me to do something
other than what I was already doing. And in being honest with myself, I had to admit to her that I could understand why she would feel that way, because I often reacted negatively when asked to go above and beyond what I was already contributing...not that I reacted meanly or with hostility...but I always had to point out how busy I was with all the other stuff I had to take care of. So at some point she stopped asking...and that led to much resentment on her part.
So I thought it would be important to tell her that I understood we both did tons of stuff around the house, but that I've learned no matter how much each of us does there's always something else that needs to get done and we should always feel like we can ask the other for help...that I realized we're partners in this, and if I have to let, for example, changing the oil in the cars slide for another day or two because she needs me to clean the downstairs bathroom and family room while she does the upstairs bathroom and bedrooms, then so be it.
Somewhere along the line, without meaning to at all, I contributed to making my wife feel like she couldn't ask for and/or tell me things. I know some of that has to do with her own issues of co-dependency and inadequacy, but I also know that some of it (and perhaps most of it) has to do with me. That's where a lot of my really important 180's have been focused. And I know she's seeing them...but at least for now I get the sense she's still firmly entrenched in "too little too late" land.
Some people actually do house work... together...
They get their connection because they are both doing things that "need" to be done AND they are doing them together...
TEAM = CONNECTION
But then again... my W has very particular ways of doing things and my way isn't good enough, even when she instructs me on a way to make the bed for example, I do it to the best of my abilities to the specifications that I understand she's asked and it's... not good enough...
So... we really have to understand... is what's being asked have anything to do with re-engaging the connection... and we can't mind read... so we need clarity...
If I'm not making the bed in the right way... maybe I'm asking the wrong question...
So... we really have to understand... is what's being asked have anything to do with re-engaging the connection... and we can't mind read... so we need clarity...
Good point(s)... In my wife's case, I think it's less about
what is being asked (although that is certainly important) than it is about feeling free to ask the question in the first place. I'm only just now learning the extent to which my wife believed certain things...maybe even most things...weren't up for discussion or debate in our relationship. Even though it's not the way I feel, I gave her the impression that certain things had been decided and that's just how they were going to be, and so she had to decide to accept things as they were or move on. She no longer saw the point in making particular requests or voicing certain opinions. What I didn't know until recently is that my wife will do just about anything to avoid conflict, no matter how big or how small. So what I saw as her agreeing with me, was quite often her denying her true feelings about something so as to avoid conflict.
Now, I don't believe I share all of the blame for that impression of hers...but I know now what I did to contribute to it, and I own enough of the blame that it's something I can work on even when she's at the point where she's decided she's done and wants out. That's one of my 180s... really listening to her, respecting her requests and opinions and, even when I don't agree, making it clear that I'm hearing her, understanding her, and acknowledging that what she has to say is valid.
Extended an invitation this morning for a 2nd "date" with my wife ("Hey, I made reservations and lined up a sitter for Saturday-after-next and would love it if you came with me.") She accepted...contingent upon whether or not she'll be scheduled to work that night. I asked her to let me know as soon as she found out, reiterating that I would really enjoy it if she came with me, but that I would go with someone else if she isn't able to.
There's really no way to tell what she's feeling... I'm hoping I'm seeing signs that there's still some love there, but for all I know they're more indicative of her desire to try to remain friends...or at the very least on good terms.
Kind of strange, she came home from her standing "girl's night out" that she has every Thursday with her best girlfriend, and for the first time in recent memory she remarked about how boring it was and that she found herself thinking "I'd rather be at home in bed right now." This morning in bed, she told me she'd had bad dreams about me. "About me?" I asked, and when she replied "Yeah" I asked her "What kind of bad dreams?" "You with other women" was her response. I didn't know what to say, so instead doing what I usually do and trying to think of something, I didn't say anything. When she says that type of stuff to me, it really makes me think/feel like "WTF?!" It just seems a little weird, given that she's the one who wants to divorce. A little bit later when we were making breakfast for the kids, she mentioned that she couldn't quite shake "those dreams", and then, although not in a serious manner, called me a jerk for my behavior in them. This time, without really any consideration, I told gently told her that she was still my one and only, a sentiment that's true enough and one that she thanked me for.
Today at my therapist's, I noted that I think I'm finally settling in to the reality that this process is about saving myself...saving (hopefully) my marriage will be the gravy on top...the most desirable of all the possible outcomes. But doing 180's, "getting a life", "divorce busting." I'm seeing that this is about saving me...about making sure I can not only survive but thrive during and after the divorce if that's where we end up heading. I'm in this weird place of being thankful in a way...I certainly would never chose to have it come at the price of my marriage and family, but from this crisis I've been given an opportunity to "wake up" and not just change and grow and "fix" some things about myself, but to also...in a weird kind of way...return to who I used to be a long time ago. Someone who actually lived life and enjoyed it, and who people liked to be around and found attractive. It's like...returning to a lighter side of myself, and of life. I find myself wondering if the demise of my marriage...losing my wife, becoming a part-time parent...would be worth it. It's a question I can't quite answer yet...certainly I wouldn't return to the life I was living though, any more than my wife would. I see why she wanted out of that life. I want out of it too, and that's what's driving my efforts right now. She may end up walking anyway, no matter what I do... but if she does, I'll at least have taken advantage of the wake-up call I've been given.
Wife remarked this morning about how bummed out she's been lately. When I asked her if she cared to elaborate, she said it was basically because of "what's going on with us," and because she's been thinking about "what's going to happen to the kids, and to us..."
I guess it's good that thinking about that stuff bums her out. I told her I definitely understand and can relate, and we pretty much left it at that.
Funny, we talked about our dinner plans again today, and she had thought I made the reservations for the same place we went last time. When I told her I had actually made them for a different place, a small plates lounge that she actually goes to quite often with her girlfriends after work, she got a little bit quiet. I had chosen the lounge because there was a time when she told me how good it was and how much she thought I would like it, and because I figured I would pick some place different from the last time but that I also knew she liked... but from her silence I got the sense that there was some reluctance on her part to go to a place where she's basically a regular, and where I'm quite sure she was thinking about how many people we would run into that know our situation and would find it odd to see us out together. That actually happened the last time we went out...we ran into two of her coworkers (two girls in their early 20's who I've been made aware have been encouraging my wife's discontent), and they were visibility flummoxed to see us out together. And the last time I went out by myself, I had two different people that I haven't seen in years come up and ask me about the state of my marriage, so my wife has obviously been sharing our circumstances with whoever cares to listen.
Part of me was inclined to keep the reservations and tell my wife that I intended to still go... but I decided to go with the fact that no matter what I think is rolling around in her head, I don't know for sure what my wife is thinking, and I'll go with what she said whether it's the truth or not--that she "just really enjoyed the experience we had the last time" and would prefer to do that again rather than go to the lounge. So, the reservations have been changed...
Our conversation got cut off by the kids coming out to the kitchen where we were talking, but she had been saying that as much as she enjoyed the invitations and the plans I was making, she found it all weird... both because she's not used to it, and because she didn't expect it from a man who has been told by his wife that she wants a divorce. She had said a couple weeks earlier that she keeps waiting for me to get angry and mean, instead of being this new person that she's seeing.
I didn't get a chance to respond, but I would have told her that I understand why it would be weird to her...to finally get what she's been wanting all along, but that this is the result of the awakening I've had...that I know now what it is to be a man, and a good husband, and to give to the people you love the things that you know make them happy, and that this is the person I intend to be regardless of what ultimately happens to/between us.
I hope the thought of divorcing, and of living separately, and of being a part-time parent... I hope thinking about those things is as ruinous to my wife as it is to me. Especially the thought of not seeing the kids every day... Perhaps that's the wrong way to be thinking, but the prospect of those things really messes me up, and I hope that's how it makes her feel too.
Although it's mind reading, I'm sure your thoughts about what might be rattling around in her head regarding the "where" are somewhat valid.
If she's been telling people that the M is going south and moving to D, it would be hard for her to explain to people that she's unsure at this time. Especially if she's said a lot of harsh things... but that's moot...
In the mean time, you two are still going out. And her words indicate confusion and uncertainty (about you, not necessarily about D)
I would remind you to watch this. Look for changes that she's moving towards, rather than not moving or moving away...
Just keep that on your peripheral vision. Don't do the LBS mistake of temp checking and "watching"...
Understand that you are setting up what might become a tradition for you and your W. Regardless of what happens in the M. If she starts moving away, how will it look if you suddenly STOP the evening out tradition. She'd see it as you being manipulative.
All I'm saying is, you are setting yourself up to be her friend, no matter what happens (which is OK, if you can handle it) so that might be something you have to be prepared for.
So what ELSE can you do to keep showing her that you are a great catch? Without it being pressure to her?
Good food for thought, Kaffe... thanks.
I guess the friendship does come first...we've certainly never been lacking in that department, ironically. She still says I'm her best friend, and I certainly feel the same way. When we're together the conversation is still free and easy, and we talk about anything and everything under the sun. And it's been suggested to me by my FIL that if anything might carry us through this and help the marriage survive it will be that friendship... he finds it as baffling as I do that two people can still appear to be so close and yet be going through what we're going through...
Still, if I've noticed any change, it would seem to be suggestive of her moving away rather than toward. The night we went out, there ended up being a lot of hand-holding and touching and just being close to each other, but it seems like the rest of the time there has been a concerted effort on her part to decrease the sort of easy, natural physical closeness that we were continuing to have... It's like, she'll catch herself being close to me, particularly when we're in bed, and she'll realize she's holding on to me or leaning her head on my shoulder or something and then quickly move away. I don't say anything when it happens, just make a mental note of it...
As far as what else I can do... I think maintaining the 180's and GAL, being calm, cool, and confidant even when she brings up "what's happening"--basically, her seeing that I'm strong enough and self-assured enough to come off like no matter what happens, I'm going to not just survive but thrive, and perhaps most importantly, being open to the types of things and experiences that she tried to convince herself weren't important to her because of my reluctance to take part in them.
She has a birthday at the beginning of next month, and I told her that despite everything, I was still planning on doing something for her to celebrate, and that my idea was to have some of our friends over to the house on a Saturday night and then on Sunday take her to a show she's really been wanting to see. I could see the look of shock and utter disbelief on her face when I suggested the party, because that's something I've always tried to discourage...I'm a real "my home is my retreat from the world" kind of person and she's a real "my home should be open to everyone" type, and to avoid what she thought would be some type of conflict she's always deferred to me. So for me to open up in that way I could tell was a real surprise for her. But I've realized, this is her home too, and she has a right to feel like there's some give on my part when it comes to stuff like that. God...a huge part of our problem is that I always figured if she felt strongly about something, even if I was opposed to it, she would just tell me...because it seems like that's how she is with everyone except me. With everyone else she comes off as very strong-willed and outspoken, but for some reason with me she was always stuffing her true feelings...not saying what she really thought...like she felt that's what she was supposed to do to keep the peace in a relationship. And as a result, we never fought or argued or anything in 8 years of marriage. And here I am thinking at the time that it was because I was lucky enough to marry someone that agreed with me on just about everything...
Our conversation got cut off by the kids before she could really answer as to whether or not my birthday plans were something she'd be into, so I guess a sign that things might be moving in the right direction will be 1) she brings it up again herself before I have to in order to have enough time to plan everything, and 2) that she says "Yes".
Man...sometimes the loneliness gets unreal. I'm staying strong on the outside, but on the inside...sometimes I'm just dying. Maintaining a platonic relationship with the woman you love is HARD. It's like being on a diet...or starving to death...and having a full Thanksgiving dinner laid out in front of you 24-7.
Just reading through your post on the 6th, you mentioned about how you think your W might be moving away...
depending on where she's at, just a thought...
There's going to be a bit of an elastic band effect as she might be struggling with her not wanting to be with you and her attraction to you (either habit or otherwise)...
Might be good to establish what that is...
any 180s that you could try?
In the past couple of days, I've been given the opportunity to employ a very important 180... that is, allowing her to criticize me or say something that could potentially hurt my feelings without me reacting by either "punishing" her by withdrawing from her and going silent, or by getting clingy and looking for reassurance from her.
As far as new/different 180's... I'm starting to wonder if it's time to back off completely. Maybe move more toward the LRT, which it seems a little bit like I had been advised against because of how well my wife and I still get along.
She came home from dinner at her parents last night and told me her mom and sister had given her a bit of the third-degree for potentially leading me on. They notice us hanging out and doing things together, and just generally having a good time...living in a way that would make outside observers surprised to find out what's going on between us, and they are worried that my wife was giving me the impression that it meant everything was going to be ok and work out between us. Apparently that got my wife worried about it to, and she wanted to know if that was the impression I was under--that things were going to work out between us, because where she is now she says she's been doing all of those things with me because she still loves my company and enjoys being with me, but she still wants a divorce. Although, she said, when she actually thinks about setting that process in motion and the consequences of it and what it will mean for the kids, it makes her sick to her stomach.
I told her that I'm doing the things I'm doing, making the changes I'm making, regardless of what happens between the two of us. Saving our marriage? Things working out? She knows that is something I haven't given up hope on. I don't say it anymore, but I said it enough in the beginning that she knows. The changes, I told her, are about ME...being the person that I want to be...being the person that, in fact, I used to be. It isn't even so much about changing...it's about returning to who I used to be. The upshot being, I said, that no matter what happens between us, this is the person I'm going to be now, and the fact that as a result we're still getting along and doing things and enjoying each other's company is the gravy on top.
She picked the conversation back up this morning, and essentially said that she had made a decision a few weeks ago that she just couldn't risk putting herself out there, couldn't risk putting her heart out on the line again, and so it was less about what she feels toward me than it is about not wanting to take the risk that the changes she sees in me won't be permanent. She said it's like there's a battle between what's in her heart and what's in her head. She said she alternates between believing the changes are real and thinking they're just temporary. And, even when she believes they're real she said she finds herself getting angry...resentful that saying "I want a divorce" is what it took to make the changes happen. I told her I completely understood her feelings, and in fact gave her credit for even being willing to entertain the idea that, at only a month and a half into my "transformation", the changes might be permanent. I said that I completely understood her mixed feelings, and that if I was in her shoes I wouldn't even begin to trust the permanence of the changes until I had seen them consistently for months and months and months.
The conversation touched on a bunch of other topics...her feeling like she had lost her identity and how to reclaim it (both of our individual counselors advocate the idea of solving this within the marriage, not outside of it); her feeling like she was on a path of growth and personal discovery that might not happen within the marriage; and her posing the hypothetical of us continuing on the way we have for an extended period...that is, with us living like best friends, but continuing on without sex and declarations of loving each other. She wanted to know how I would feel about that. My view on that, which I shared with her for better or worse, was that it took years for us to find ourselves where we are, and my assumption is that it would take months upon months to work ourselves away from it to someplace better.
My final contribution to the discussion was to tell her that she was her own person, who had her own experience in our marriage, that she had the right to forge her own identity, and that I had to honor her thoughts and feelings and opinions about what had happened between us, and about what should happen next. I told her that no matter what, she had to decide for herself and own her own decisions, and that the changes she was seeing in me were the result of me doing the same thing, and that I'm going to continue on the path she sees me on no matter what happens between us and no matter what she ultimately decides.
*sigh*... the good intentioned, but meddling family and friends...
Why should it really matter if you two are being friends? That's between the two of you. Your W might THINK she's clear on leaving, but so what if she starts to like you and moves towards you...
Anyhow, no matter... it happens... if not them, probably, eventually someone else...
Understand that LRT is FOR YOU... to help you detach... also understand that LRT does not have to be forever... but can also lead to forever... in that nothing changes and you finally choose to move on...
OK, further on your W has told you EXACTLY what she's thinking... which is... she's THINKING about you...
before you do anything drastic... consider that... you don't have to go all LRT on her, maybe... just keep the changes going and be a man only a fool would leave...
Thanks as always for the perspective, Kaffe. Good stuff. Much appreciated.
It's definitely not just her sister and mom, she has so many friends buzzing in her ears about what she should/should not be doing...
I've been successful in not bringing up the relationship or the divorce, but whenever she brings it up and indicates that she's still holding to her decision, it definitely gives me a sense of...panic (internal and well-hidden) that I'm not following the right course of action. I've been good about not letting on how that makes me feel, and just letting her know that her decisions are her decisions to make.
You're right though...at this point, whether she leaves me tomorrow or next month or next year, she won't be leaving the same person that she initially wanted to divorce; she'll be leaving a changed (permanently) man. And I think to change course now would be a mistake...she's even indicated that she's entertained the idea of reconciling some time in the future when she's had a chance to see that I've solidified and stuck to my changes/growth/transformation, so I guess a big part of what's at play is her not trusting that the changes are long-term. So, there's the motivation to keep the changes going, as if the benefits to me and my mental health weren't enough (the changes I've made have certainly made me feel happier and stronger than I've felt in a long time, despite going through the worst episode in my life). And she's suggested that she's curious to find out what happens the first time I backslide (because she says, I'm only human and she knows it will happen at some point)...wanting to know if I'll quickly recover and keep up the good work or if I'll just slip back into my old ways for good. Obviously I don't want us to actually have to split up for her to find out what she needs to find out...but that's out of my hands (to a certain extent). All I can do is keep on the path I'm on and be a man only a fool would leave.
If I'm not there yet, I can say with confidence I'm well on my way...
You'll hear talk about resistance... that what we resist, persists...
While you want to save your M, you may feel you are fighting with all that buzzing in her ears... and if you keep fighting it, it will keep going...
so yes, the option you have is to LRT and DROP THE ROPE...
and quite often, we see the elastic band carry the WAS waaaay out into space... only to plop them right back on the lap of the LBS...
but the elastic isn't unbreakable... and there is the risk that it breaks sometime between letting it go and your W on your lap...
Not my decision to make, of course... it's yours... so my opinion would be to give a few other things a try, first...
LRT always remains an option...
if she's not moving away (actually doing the WAS equivalent of LRT)... then no harm, no foul to keeping a steady ship with minor course corrections...
if she's not moving away (actually doing the WAS equivalent of LRT)... then no harm, no foul to keeping a steady ship with minor course corrections...
I like the ship analogy, a lot. I think she's battling herself. I think when she told me she wanted a divorce, she was sure that nothing was ever going to change and that I, in fact, was incapable of changing. I think it's thrown her for a loop in a major way that my response was to look within myself, accept my part of the blame, and begin to change.
She asked me the other day if "hypothetically" (she was very careful to emphasize "hypothetically") I would be willing/able to continue for an extended period living as we have been recently; that is, getting along, doing things together, enjoying each other's company, but not having sex and not saying "I love you" to each other. It's funny, she seems to think going without sex is the hardest part about all of this for me. I told her that as much as I do miss the sex, it's the least of the things that I miss right now. I also told her that I wouldn't want us to live this way forever, or indefinitely, but that for right now I thought we're doing pretty well...well enough to continue on the course we're on. She started crying and said that in all of this the thing she was having the hardest time with was the thought of not living with her best friend anymore, and that it crushed her to think about the dissolution of our friendship. I thought about reassuring her that I'll always be there for her and her friend...but I've told her that plenty of times before, and I actually think it might be good for her to have to weigh the potential consequences of her decision.
I think the elastic band is in full effect and I am expecting a lot of vacillation on her part. She's called me twice today at work (for the first time in weeks upon weeks) to discuss little things that certainly could have waited until I was home...and that really didn't need to be discussed with me at all in the first place.
We have a movie together scheduled for tonight; dinner reservations for the end of the month (I gave her an easy out but she thinks it will be a lot of fun so she wants to go); potential birthday plans for the beginning of next month (I'm waiting to let her bring them up again since I already put the suggestion out there); and a wedding that I offered to accompany her to (a MAJOR 180 for me as I've ducked out of every wedding invitation we've received over the past 8 years and I now know that's been a big source of discontent for her, even though she would at the time always say something like "It's ok if you don't want to go...").
Above and beyond that, I'm just to continue on as I have been with the 180s and GAL. She's given indication that it's still way to early (only about a month and a half) to have changed her feelings much, but that if I keep up the good work it might. So, steady as she goes... I'll prepare for and accept the worst should it come to that, but continue to hope for the best...
Hmmm... 3 phone calls at work from her today, and a series of texts. All small talk/things that could have waited until I got home, and we're kind of unnecessary to begin with. Not going to read too much into it, but it's unusual in that she hasn't done that in a long time.
Need to remember 1) maintaining the friendship is important to her, so it may be nothing more than that; 2) I need to let her be the last to send a text. I don't know why...but it just feels important/right course of action to be the one who ends the conversation...
Man, I hate the fact that the "Edit" function doesn't work...
Well, it's been about a month and a half... not long by DB standards, but it's been the longest month and a half of my life...
GAL: Started working out regularly again (and it's already starting to show!); started meditating again; started creative writing again; drawing again; getting in touch with/making plans with friends that had fallen by the wayside; making plans to do things on my own again (camping/hiking, or even just going out for walks/drives alone if there's nothing else to do); doing things with the kids on my own.
180s: Being open to new experiences; practicing patience, tolerance, and kindness; listening to constructive criticism without responding negatively; practicing generosity; encouraging my wife's own social life, interests, and identity; giving my wife space at home/not seeking her out; taking the initiative to line-up sitters/make reservations on my own; doing the chores that I know are important to my wife, not just the ones that I think are important; offering to accompany my wife to things that I don't want to go to, but that I know she doesn't want to go to alone; encouraging my wife to express her opinions, particularly when I suspect she disagrees with me, and then really listening to what she has to say (simply asking her what she feels/thinks, instead of assuming her silence means agreement).
The last time she brought it up (at the beginning of this week), she said she still wanted a divorce, but she also mentioned the "hypothetical" possibility of us continuing to live as we have been for the past month and a half...showing, perhaps, an unspoken interest in seeing if her feelings change if I keep up the good work. As I've mentioned before, it's strange how she's the one that wants to split and I'm the one potentially being dumped...and yet, she's the one who seems to be struggling and floundering while I, by all outward appearances, am the one who is staying strong and functional and getting sh!t done.
The last time she brought it up (at the beginning of this week), she said she still wanted a divorce, but she also mentioned the "hypothetical" possibility of us continuing to live as we have been for the past month and a half...showing, perhaps, an unspoken interest in seeing if her feelings change if I keep up the good work. As I've mentioned before, it's strange how she's the one that wants to split and I'm the one potentially being dumped...and yet, she's the one who seems to be struggling and floundering while I, by all outward appearances, am the one who is staying strong and functional and getting sh!t done.
huh...that IS strange. Sort of almost weird that as you change old patterns and habits into ones that benefit you, she is almost uncertain of her plans.
hrnm.
Something to think about...like what happens if you are consistent and these changes aren't just changes but your way of life? I wonder what else might change.
Something to think about...like what happens if you are consistent and these changes aren't just changes but your way of life? I wonder what else might change.
That's a good question Jack... I don't know exactly how you meant it, but it's got me thinking about who's mind might actually be the one to change in this scenario, mine or hers. She's been pulling away some lately, and as I let her move away without reacting to it, it's created a little bit of space for me to step back and observe and process some thoughts...especially as I continue to work hard on myself, while she just seems to be kind of...adrift.
I know I've got a sh!tst0rm of hurt and pain ahead of me if we actually separate and then divorce, but right now I'm feeling stronger, healthier, and better about myself than I have in a long time. And I'm kind of hesitant to even put it out there in fear of it cursing me in some way, but... sometimes I actually feel gratitude toward the powers that be that I was given a wake up call; an opportunity to change the path I was on as a person. I don't know that I would pay the price of my marriage upfront, but given the fact that I can't change the past, I'll be grateful that what's coming out of all of this is an opportunity to improve myself.
I don't know why, but I have this sense that the next few days will be interesting... I just feel like something is on the horizon...like she's going to throw me a curve or...I don't know what. Just going to stay calm, cool, aware, centered, and positive.
Stepping back and observing...
I guess I should feel fortunate that my wife's decision to divorce came about without any type of planning whatsoever regarding how the process would actually go... no plans about where either one of us would live, work schedules, child care, etc. It's like she decided she wanted a divorce, and thought everything else would figure itself out. Better than the alternative I suppose...I mean, the alternative could have been not just her telling me she wanted a divorce, but finding out she had her escape plan all set to go as well.
The last week or so, she's been pulling away. We still get along well enough, but there's been a lot of...I'm not even sure...seems like there's anger toward me just below the surface sometimes. I just stay even-keeled and don't react to it. If she ends up expressing it, I'll absorb it or let it roll off my back. There's also an issue of depression and anxiety with her. She hasn't been doing much of anything lately...just the bare minimum around the house. I've really been stepping up in that regard. She goes to work in the afternoon 3 days a week, maybe gets one thing done around the house, and that's pretty much it. Other than that, she's been spending a TON of time screwing around on twitter and tumblr...it's like they've become her escape.
She keeps mentioning that she "doesn't know what's wrong" with her, regarding the lack of motivation, etc. It seems obvious to me what's wrong...but I figure it's her place to acknowledge it to herself, not mine to point it out. On top of twitter and tumblr, she's essentially carrying on what amounts to an emotional affair with the gay guy she works with. 10 years younger, living a college/post-college lifestyle (i.e., partying, no real responsibilities or obligations yet), he offers a real attractive alternative to a life of parenting and bills and "real life"). Lots of texting back and forth with him...she essentially talks to him the way she used to talk with me. In fact...if she were putting as much energy into "us" as she's been putting in with him, we would probably be in a much better place. So he, and another girl they both work with, also 10 years younger and living pretty much the same lifestyle as the gay guy, have become where she's investing what time and energy she does have. That's the type of stuff that makes me think about the "anytime mid-life crisis". I haven't made any remarks about it, I don't question what she does, and I certainly am not trying to compete. Right now, I'm just going with "live and let live" as I continue working on me. For all her lip service about trying to figure out who she is and who she wants to be, it would be nice to see her actually doing it instead of just screwing around...but, eh, who am I to judge? Look at what it took for me to get on the ball.
Been feeling more and more like I deserve some love. Maybe I haven't earned it yet. I know it's only been less than 2 months, but sometimes I catch myself thinking "Man, I deserve to have someone return some of what I'm putting out there..." I'm giving, giving, giving, but not getting anything in return. Really, nothing... Well, maybe not nothing, but that's what it feels like sometimes. My father-in-law encouraged me last night to stay the course, that's it's too soon to expect things to have turned around. I guess he's right...I know he's right. But as I watch my wife pull away, it really makes me hunger for someone who will give to me what I'm missing right now... love, kindness, physical closeness... Even just a taste of it...
Feeling kind of empty right now. Not showing it at all on the outside, but that hollow feeling is definitely there...
Been feeling more and more like I deserve some love.
Of course you do. Love yourself.
Been feeling more and more like I deserve some love.
Of course you do. Love yourself.
Wise words. Of course you're right. I've been doing alright in that department. Every now and then though, I crave that validation that comes from outside myself. My wife did a great job of making me feel loved, even when--apparently--she was at her most miserable/unfulfilled.
This is a tough path...
My father-in-law encouraged me last night to stay the course, that's it's too soon to expect things to have turned around.
Wise man there.
But as I watch my wife pull away, it really makes me hunger for someone who will give to me what I'm missing right now... love, kindness, physical closeness... Even just a taste of it...
Someone? Or your wife?
If it is such a need then your walking dangerously close to common cause with many Walk Away Spouses.
A puppy would give you much of what you...need.
If it's your wife, then listen to your FIL and stay the course.
My father-in-law encouraged me last night to stay the course, that's it's too soon to expect things to have turned around.
Wise man there.
[quote]
But as I watch my wife pull away, it really makes me hunger for someone who will give to me what I'm missing right now... love, kindness, physical closeness... Even just a taste of it...
[quote]
Someone? Or your wife?
If it is such a need then your walking dangerously close to common cause with many Walk Away Spouses.
A puppy would give you much of what you...need.
If it's your wife, then listen to your FIL and stay the course.
Thanks...I needed that. Definitely not just someone. Just my wife.
Staying the course...but I think some minor adjustments are in order. I think I'm slipping in GAL department. Between work and the kids, it's hard finding the time, but I think that's where I need to be refocusing my efforts right now.
Notices my wife's wedding ring hasn't moved from it's perch on the bathroom sink over the last couple of days. No comment from me about it, but it was almost impossible not to notice...definitely don't like it, definitely doesn't seem like a good sign...definitely keeping my mouth shut about it.
We seem to be squarely in "just friends" territory. I suppose there are worse places to be, but it makes me wonder about being able to accurately gauge her responses to 180's and GAL. It seems like it would be easy to confuse signs of positive movement on her part with things that are really just evidence that she wants to remain friends during and post-divorce. Still...I guess I have to remember that if reconciliation after divorcing is to be a possibility, than maintaing the friendship is still important...I guess it's still important no matter what, since there are kids involved.
Still..."Just friends" would be comforting if we had worked our way there from someplace worse, but that's the puzzling thing...we never had a breakdown in the friendship...no alienation, no period of not talking or getting along. The friendship and companionship has been the constant in this; what was missing for my wife were the things that I needed to be doing to make her feel "in love"--things that she needed to have in order to feel more than just friendship. I've done a complete 180 in making myself available to do those things for/with her...I guess a great sign of things changing for the better would be her asking me/inviting me to do some of those things. That certainly hasn't happened yet. She has accepted some of my invitations/offers, but she hasn't made any of her own.
I'm becoming more firm in my view that there seems to be an element of a MLC at work here. She's really been trying to emulate the girls she hangs out with that are 10 years younger than her...girls/women that are essentially right now where my wife was when we got married. Young, free, no responsibilities, very focused on their looks/image and being "hipsters" (whatever that term even means these days). Almost like she's trying to recapture her youth and a life that kind of slipped away from her when she got married and had kids. Maybe a little ironic, because I've always tried to "give" her as much freedom to continue living her life as she saw fit, never hassled her about going out or maintaining her own life and identity... I guess as important as that may have been to do, it would have been just as important, if not more so, for me to have been more willing to take part in that life of hers when she wanted me to. That was definitely one of my major failings...
So, I feel like I'm watching her detach and move away more and more. I'm maintaing my 180's, my GAL (need to work a little more in that department I think), and am "letting" her move away without overtly trying to draw her back. I'm being as kind and giving as I can be, without being a doormat. I'm giving her as much space as she wants to take to do things on her own, and with her friends. I don't question her about it and in fact if anything I've encouraged her to do what she needs to do to "find herself". Seems like the right tact to take, especially if this is MLC-related, but also even if it isn't. Funny though...I wonder if she ever realizes that the reason she has so much freedom to do stuff is precisely because we're still together/living together...
My wife has been doing the same things, which now makes me think she too is having a MLC.
She's been dressing a little more hip, changed her hair style slightly, and she's been going out with a group of younger gals more frequently.
I have been thinking it was her escape from us, but maybe they are indicators of a MLC.
Where are things with you and your wife now, NTX? I think it was about a month ago that you wrote she had committed to trying to make things work. Hopefully that's still where you guys are. Unfortunately, no such commitment as of yet from mine.
About the MLC, it's not even just her behavior. She's been talking a lot about her more carefree days...her glory days basically. Back when she could go clubbing and partying "without having to worry about anyone else."
Funny thing is, that was something I never tried to curtail or discourage her from doing... I used to have A LOT of fun doing that stuff myself, and doing that stuff with her before we got married. When we did get married and had our first child, I figured that since I'm about 7 years older than her, I had 7 more years of doing all of that and getting it out of my system, so I didn't mind if she kept it up for a while more...I kind of figured the more freedom I gave her in that regard, the less she would feel constrained by a more domestic lifestyle. And I was always really secure with myself and our relationship, and she always said she was a "good girl" even when she went out without me, so I never felt a need to be worried or jealous or anything like that. One thing I didn't know at the time was how much she wanted me to occasionally do that stuff WITH her still, but there I was thinking what a great, secure husband I was for giving her her freedom...
I don't know...in my wife's case, I think she feels like she lost herself so much in our marriage (something I think she blames herself for, not me) that right now she's just kind of off the rails trying to figure out who she is and who she wants to be...but it doesn't seem like "wife" is fitting into the equation right now.
Where are things with you and your wife now, NTX? I think it was about a month ago that you wrote she had committed to trying to make things work. Hopefully that's still where you guys are. Unfortunately, no such commitment as of yet from mine.
July was wonderful. Things were looking up and she said she was committed to fixing the marriage.
Her doctor switched her medicine to Lexapro and she quickly became very depressed and had panic attacks when we would talk. It was so weird and scary. The doctor told her to stop taking the meds and she slowly started getting back to normal. She decided during that episode that even though she couldn't control her emotions, she could think very clearly and that she realized she hasn't been happy for a long time.
She filed for divorce on August 8th and is looking at apartments. She's hoping to move out Labor Day weekend.
She has dropped hints that we still might miss each other and reconcile after she moves out. At this point though I don't know if she means it or is just saying that to get me to cooperate.
I've been reading stories on this new comer section and everyone is trying so hard with the GALs and 180s. I sometimes wonder if there are any success stories on here some where.
I would love to get some thoughts from others, if anybody cares to share them, on how I handled a request from my wife about the weekend coming up...
She originally had plans to go to a club on Saturday with her girl-friend and girl-friend's husband. The husband is a DJ and has VIP tickets...which essentially means they'll have their own "party room" and private bar. My wife originally wanted to know how I felt about her spending the night at their place Saturday night so that she didn't have to drive home late/after drinking. I said it was fine with me. This then turned into a request to spend the whole weekend at the friend's house; my wife would drive down there Friday night after work, spend the night there and hang out during the day on Saturday, go to the show, spend the night Saturday night, hang out during the day on Sunday and then come home around dinner time on Sunday. She kind of framed it as wanting to go to the show, but also "needing some space" to clear her head and gather her thoughts. The friends live on an old farm, so the idea posed to me by my wife is that in addition to going to the show, she'll have some time to hang out in the fields and reconnect with herself and nature. I told her this was fine too; during the best of times I would never have thought twice about her taking a weekend to do her own thing.
Here's the thing though--privately, I'm having a really hard time with it. From a DB perspective, I figured the best thing I could do is let her go with my full blessing. But I'm really having my doubts as to whether the weekend really has anything to do with her "clearing her head/gathering her thoughts" than it does just being an opportunity to party for 2/3 days without having to worry about taking care of the kids, etc. Even if that is the case, I guess from a DB perspective I should still be "letting" her go do it, and acting like I'm fine with it even if I have my reservations, but it is raising all kinds of mixed emotions in me... insecurity being near the top of the list.
My wife is very attractive, very fit, she gets hit on a lot, and the thought of her going to this show without me is wracking my nerves in a way it never would have back when our relationship was secure. The show will basically be straight out of the club scene, lots of dancing/drinking/club drugs (not that my wife will necessarily be partaking in the drugs...but she might), and I'm having a really hard time keeping myself from imagining the potential scenarios/consequences that could take place (this is all stuff I'm keeping to myself however; as far as my wife knows, I'm totally ok with her going and haven't given her an inkling of my insecurities).
The other thing I'm wrestling with is this--one of my wife's "problems" with me was the extent to which I had kind of whittled down my life to centering on just her and the kids...not having a life of my own. So, I've been making pretty good strides in returning to having a life, but I also realized that a big part of that dynamic was the fact that I often allowed my social life to take a back seat to hers because it seemed more central to her happiness than it did to mine, and because someone needed to be home with the kids. I kind of feel like by giving her the whole weekend to do this, I'm still kind of doing that...letting my GAL take a back seat to hers. I don't know...maybe I should look at this as it being just one weekend, and that it's important to give her her space in whatever way she feels necessary right now, but there's a part of me that feels like I've really been picking up the slack with the housework and childcare right now, and here I am again letting her go run around while I hold down the fort at home. Especially with school starting next week, I'll be running around most of the weekend getting the last couple of things they'll need...while she'll be having a fun carefree weekend...there's a part of me that's thinking "hey...is this really fair?"
Something else that's been percolating in me for the last couple of days... Ever since my wife dropped the ILYBINILWY bomb, she's really kind of checked out on helping out around the house. I wouldn't go so far as to say she isn't doing anything at all, but I'm really stepping up and picking up the slack. We used to have a pretty even division of labor, but right now I've taken over most of the housework. It seems like the only things she's doing are the things that I absolutely can't because I'm at work/working at home...and even when I'm working at home I'm finding I'm getting stuff done that traditionally she would have done. And the stuff that we used to split pretty evenly I'm doing alone for the most part...I can't remember the last time since she dropped the bomb that she did a load of the kids' laundry or washed the dishes. She's mentioned several times how frequently she's anxious, and without motivation, and recognizes she's not doing as much stuff. When I mentioned to her a day or so ago that I had vacuumed and washed the kitchen floor so that she wouldn't do it again unnecessarily, she remarked "wow, you're really starting to make me feel like a lazy piece of cr@p." I told her that certainly wasn't my intention, it's just that I've realized that when there's something that I feel like needs to be done, it's my responsibility to do it rather than wait for/expect somebody else to. Still...I guess I feel like from even just a "roommate" perspective, I'm doing more than my fair share right now.
I think with her going away this weekend, some of that is starting to gnaw at me a little bit. Especially with this being the last weekend before the kids go back to school, I'm feeling like she should have WANTED to be around to help get stuff done for them... like, going down to her friend's Saturday afternoon, going to the show, and then spending the night Saturday night and coming home Sunday afternoon should have been good enough. That way she could have been around Saturday during the day to help get the last few things for the kids taken care of.
Have you considered she may be depressed? Just asking.
She isn't doing this to jerk your chain IMHO.
Have you considered she may be depressed? Just asking.
She isn't doing this to jerk your chain IMHO.
I have considered that...and I think that she probably is. She describes it as anxiety (she has to take xanax occasionally during the day to deal with what are essentially panic attacks that come on whenever she starts thinking about our situation, and also occasionally at night so that she can get to sleep), and I guess anxiety is obviously a critical element...but I think there is a strong vein of depression in there as well.
I guess there's a part of me that feels like "Hey, how come I'm the one that's for all intents and purposes getting dumped, but I'm managing to pull myself together, showing a positive attitude, and taking care of business, meanwhile this is her decision, her choice that divorce is the answer, and yet here she is anxious/depressed, barely doing anything around the house but still maintaining the motivation/ability to do the things that are solely for her?" I know that's probably not the best way to be thinking...but I guess I have to admit to myself (and maybe to her at some point) that it's starting to bother me that she's able to pull it together to work out and do yoga, keep herself looking pretty, socialize and party with her friends, but most of the work and responsibilities of maintaining the household have kind of been taken over by me. I've been willing to let it slide for the past couple of months for the sake of giving her her space and just focusing on me and the kids and getting done what needs to get done...but I guess I'm feeling like there needs to be a discussion/re-negotiation of what needs to get done around here...
Ok, so she's taking anti anxiety/depression meds already. Pretty clear indicator.
meanwhile this is her decision, her choice that divorce is the answer, and yet here she is anxious/depressed, barely doing anything around the house but still maintaining the motivation/ability to do the things that are solely for her?" I know that's probably not the best way to be thinking.
No it's not going to help you. the thoughts you are expressing here will only serve to inflame your own hurt feelings of dismissal, diminishment and disregard.
You do realise that feeling of injustice/inequality you're experiencing is YOUR PERCEPTION, and not necessarily the truth.
Depression is a heavy burden, it crushes you and you can barely keep it together.
]it's starting to bother me that she's able to pull it together to work out and do yoga, keep herself looking pretty, socialize and party with her friends,
This is what she is doing to keep her head above water man and stop from spiralling down further IMHO. What you're seeing from my personal experience and perspective is a woman in whirlpool hanging on to a rope. Housework is the FIRST to go, along with and later come: overeating/undereating, oversleeping/undersleeping , then personal appearance/hygiene goes too and you end up in your bathrobe all day.
IMHO you're very lucky she's not that far gone yet.
Please understand, depression is anger turned inward. Your W loathes herself right now. She can't love herself, she doesn't believe you can love her either, and she can't love you right now until she gets appropriate help/therapy to address it.
My hugs, prayers and warm thoughts go out to you. Be strong.
Have you considered she may be depressed? Just asking.
She isn't doing this to jerk your chain IMHO.
I have considered that...and I think that she probably is. She describes it as anxiety (she has to take xanax occasionally during the day to deal with what are essentially panic attacks that come on whenever she starts thinking about our situation, and also occasionally at night so that she can get to sleep), and I guess anxiety is obviously a critical element...but I think there is a strong vein of depression in there as well.
I guess there's a part of me that feels like "Hey, how come I'm the one that's for all intents and purposes getting dumped, but I'm managing to pull myself together, showing a positive attitude, and taking care of business, meanwhile this is her decision, her choice that divorce is the answer, and yet here she is anxious/depressed, barely doing anything around the house but still maintaining the motivation/ability to do the things that are solely for her?" I know that's probably not the best way to be thinking...but I guess I have to admit to myself (and maybe to her at some point) that it's starting to bother me that she's able to pull it together to work out and do yoga, keep herself looking pretty, socialize and party with her friends, but most of the work and responsibilities of maintaining the household have kind of been taken over by me. I've been willing to let it slide for the past couple of months for the sake of giving her her space and just focusing on me and the kids and getting done what needs to get done...but I guess I'm feeling like there needs to be a discussion/re-negotiation of what needs to get done around here...
Your sitch is starting to sound exactly like my sitch! The similarities are eerie.
May I ask how old your W is? Mine is 37. I wonder if its a case of MLC.
My hugs, prayers and warm thoughts go out to you. Be strong.
Hey, thank you for that. Thanks for everything you wrote--I needed that perspective--but many many thanks for the kind regards. I needed to hear that from someone.
I know a fair bit about clinical depression; suffered on and off from it for years and have been off/on meds... in fact, it undoubtedly contributed to the problems that I brought to the table in my marriage. I guess I should feel fortunate that I'm coping quite well without meds now (although I am in individual therapy). And I need to remind myself that depression manifests itself in different ways for different people...and different people cope with it in different ways...
I am sorry, I just posted a reply to you which is essentially the same as one I posted on the 16th. I am still moderated so I forget what I have and haven't already said.
I may have replied and told you about our current sitch, I can't see it on here yet so at risk of repeating myself...
I got the ILYBNILWY back in April. She asked for a separation back then as well. We tried to stay together in the same home but sleeping apart since. It started to get better in July and she invited me back to our bed, but then at the end of July she "snapped". She started taking Lexapro and she had severe side effects. But the damage was done... we had a couple of arguments that "sealed the deal" for her. On August 8th she filed for divorce and told me she's moving out September 1st.
TBH, I think at this point some time away from each other might be a good thing. I'm going to hate it, but you and I sound alike in that we have both stopped being "us". My social network is diminished and I have neglected my interests in years, which in return makes me unhappy at some level and probably has caused her to lose respect for me.
Your sitch is starting to sound exactly like my sitch! The similarities are eerie.
May I ask how old your W is? Mine is 37. I wonder if its a case of MLC.
I'm 39 and my wife is 33 (2 kids; Son = 8, Daughter = 5). In our case, I think it's a mix of my wife having some VERY legitimate complaints that she didn't communicate to me very well (because of her issues) and that I didn't pick up on and do anything about (because of my issues) until it was "too late." Even after she told me she wanted a divorce she didn't share much in the way of reasons. It was only through a lot of intense introspection on my part that I started seeing things with clarity, and would come to her with the things I was seeing/realizing, and then she would confirm that they were the things she was unhappy about.
I don't know if the MLC-type stuff that's going on now was a contributing factor, or if it's something that only started to manifest itself once she told me she wanted a divorce. As Queen_of_Swords suggested, a lot of what I'm seeing from my wife right now might be more a sign of how my wife is dealing with her feelings of anxiety and depression.
That could be as well. She's probably too young for MLC.
One of my friends speculated that mine W isn't having a MLC, but rather she's just running away from the house to escape whatever negativity she's perceiving in the household.
That could be as well. She's probably too young for MLC.
One of my friends speculated that mine W isn't having a MLC, but rather she's just running away from the house to escape whatever negativity she's perceiving in the household.
I'm not sure if I read it in DB/DR or somewhere else, but I was thinking along the lines of the "anytime" MLC...which I guess might be better described as an identity crisis. My wife has just really returned to the exact same place we both were in when we first met 10/11 years ago...she's basically become a regular in the "hip" bar scene where we live, and she works as a server so she's part of the whole restaurant crowd, and they just all see staying out until 2 or 3 am as totally normal. I used to do that too...a lot. But once the kids came along I really started to mellow out some, and my wife did too...although not as much as me. Because she's younger than me, I kind of gave her the freedom to keep doing some of that stuff a little more often than I honestly would have liked, because I didn't want her to feel too constrained by the new "domestic" life we were building. And for a while she seemed to appreciate that. But ever since dropping the bomb on me she's really been immersing herself in it more and more...and trying to emulate the new crop of "hip" girls on the scene that are the age now that she was when we first met...mid-twenties or so.
Some people have suggested the possibility of an affair to me, and I would of course be a fool not to consider it...but I really haven't seen any definitive signs of it. No mysterious texting or phone calls, no lack of explanations for where she is and what she does. In fact, she's been really good about calling me when she gets off work to let me know whether or not she's going out and where she's going. She says she feels compelled to do that because I've been being "so good" to her since she dropped the bomb, so she wants to show me some respect and consideration as far as that goes. She actually said the other day that she's never seen anything like what she's seeing from me right now, the changes and the work I'm doing on me. She said she honestly doesn't know what to make of it.
Personally, I never had any suspicions of my own about the possibility of an affair, or of her meeting/pursuing/being pursued by someone else until this week when she stopped wearing her wedding ring. This weekend she stayed at her friend's place down on an old farm, ostensibly so that she could get some time to herself and clear her head, but I also know that the weekend will include a drive into the city to go dancing at a club...and the thought of her in one of her "club outfits" with no ring on her finger just about sends me up the wall. She's very attractive, very fit, and when she dances it's pretty d@mn amazing. But, before she left for the weekend she sat down next to me and held my hand and hugged me, and told me that for her this weekend represented nothing more than the weekend camping trips that I sometimes take on my own...a chance to do something as her own person instead of as "wife" or "mother"... and that's something that I actually have always supported...I just felt a whole lot better about it when our relationship was secure...and when she wore her d@mn ring...
So I don't know...maybe she's using the weekend as an opportunity to run around with someone behind my back and maybe she isn't. But I think it would take a special type of liar to tell me what she told me before she left, and if she is lying I have to assume she doesn't understand that if I find out, it will ruin the chances of maintaining the friendship that she says is so important to her. She still says that I'm her best friend, and that she wants to make sure no matter what happens that we continue to get along for the kids' sake and because her parents still love me and want me to continue to feel welcome in their home... but I'm not sure I have any interest in being friends with someone who would lie and manipulate me in order to get what they want when I (and her own father for that matter) have asked her point blank if there's someone else in the picture or waiting in the wings, and she has emphatically said "No."
So my wife returned from her weekend away... she called Sunday morning to say she was on her way home, and we had a very pleasant conversation as she was driving. The phone call itself was a surprise, as I expected her to spend most if not all of the day at her friend's place, planning on her not returning until around dinner time. She talked about how she wanted to make a point of going to see live music once a month, and was open to that being something we do together.
She seemed happy to see me when she got home. Without my prompting, she gave me a pretty full account of her weekend, and told me that she wanted to make sure I knew that when they went out to the club she danced only with her friend, and that no men hit on her. Aside from going out to the club on Saturday night, she said she spent the rest of the weekend just being alone, thinking, writing, and hanging out in the fields surrounding the farmhouse.
We conversed on and off the rest of the day, during which she also said she realized she hadn't been pulling her weight around the house and was going to get back into the swing of things as far as that goes. Much to my surprise, she also acknowledged that she was still engaging in some of the same behavior that lead to our marital problems...most notably, her continuing to not express her true opinions about things and not telling me things like complaints about our relationship or things she feels like she wants or needs for fear of hurting me. She said seeing all the changes I've undergone in the last two months is making her question how good her current therapist is, and is considering the possibility of finding a new one. She said she's starting to realize she's still "far more messed up" than she's been willing to acknowledge.
There wasn't any talk of what all of this might mean for us, and I didn't ask. She did tell me that she has more feelings for me than "just friends", but that she's very mixed up and confused right now and doesn't want to lead me on. A lot of other things were touched upon as well, but one of the few things I did say, and where we kind of left things off, is that I was aware I didn't exactly create an environment in which she could feel comfortable sharing her relationship complaints, and that was one of the major things I had worked on in the last two months with my therapist...becoming a man that can be open to and hear her constructive criticism, and the things that she needs to tell me regarding her wants and needs. She said it wasn't just with me that she has a problem doing that, that it's a problem for her with all the people in her life, but that it had the most negative consequences with me because of the nature of our relationship. She said changing that is one of her major goals, and I told her I was open to being and would like to be the person that helps her learn to do that.
From all of that, I would have loved for it to have ended with her indicating she was having a change of heart and that she had decided to hold off on separation/divorce and see if we can't turn things around, but she didn't take that step... I wasn't expecting her to, but I certainly was hoping for her to. She has an independent counseling session tomorrow...and again, I'm hoping the outcome of that will her be telling me she has decided to stick things out long enough to see if we can both make the permanent changes we need to make...but yet again, I'm hoping for that, not expecting it... I also really want to see her put that ring back on her finger...
I have to say... I give major props and accolades to the folks who are able to keep this up...the DB'ing...for months and months...even years in some cases. I realized that today it's been 2 months since my wife dropped the bomb on me, and I'm just so tired. Some days are better than others of course, but I'm just so...tired. I haven't shown a drop outwardly to her of what I'm feeling on the inside, as far as the loneliness and confusion and...misery. But sometimes it's all just right there beneath the surface, even as I go about my business with a smile on my face.
Had a very interesting conversation with my wife last night, initiated by her. She said she was very confused, and wasn't sure what the next step for her or us should be, but seemed to be backing off of divorce as the next immediate course of action.
She said all of the changes she was seeing in me had inspired her to acknowledge to herself that she had some major changes of her own she needed to make; namely, be honest with herself and with me (and the other people in her life) about how she feels about things...honoring her own opinions and values, and being strong enough to state her wants and needs.
She also told me that for the past 3 years she's been much more unhappy than she's been willing to admit, and that as a result she feels drained and part of her just doesn't want to be married anymore because of what marriage has represented for her...a thing that had some beauty and goodness to it, but that was constantly tainted by frustration and unhappiness and unfulfillment. She said her primary feeling right now is that she can't get over those bad feelings, and feelings of having fallen out of love and just not being attracted to the person I had become, but that because we are still such good friends and there are things she really values about our relationship, she's willing to see what will happen when we both enact the changes that we need to make. We're kind of limited by time, because in November we had been planning on buying the house we're currently renting... so that gives us two months to see how things develop and decide if we'll stick to that plan, find some other place together, or find places to live separately.
In the course of our discussion, she made pretty clear the type of man she was attracted to...and it's the man I used to be but, unfortunately, had drifted away from over the course of our marriage. She wants someone strong, independent, who has a life of his own, who is willing to take charge; someone who can fend for himself in social situations, and who people take notice of when he walks into a room. Funny thing is...before we got married, that's the person I was. People used to actually tell me things like that about myself...that I was charismatic, that I was the type of person people wanted to be friends with. But somewhere along the line in our marriage I just became this other person...I don't really know how or why, but that's definitely something to explore in my independent counseling.
So, I've been given a pretty good road map... might not change anything between us, but I know the person that I want to be...the person that I used to be...the person that I want to return to be being. It might not turn things around for "us", but it will certainly turn things around for me, and if there is anything that will save our marriage, it will be both of us enacting the necessary changes, growth, and development.
That sounds very encouraging.
It's good that you are owning up to some things that you can improve, but also keep in mind a good marriage is a two way street.
My wife had me convinced all summer that it was all just me, but I'm seeing the bigger picture now, and I've also discovered an affair. She says it's only emotional, but I am not so sure.
Last night my wife told me that she found a piece of paper in her drawer that had apparently been there for a couple of years. It was something she had written in therapy, listing many (although probably not all) of the things she was unhappy about in our relationship. I asked her if I could see it. It was pretty brutal...but nothing that I could argue with. Everything she had written was the truth.
It boggled my mind to think that for the past few years there's been a piece of paper with such important information on it sitting in a drawer just a few feet away from me. Why didn't her therapist ever tell her to share that info with me?!?! When I asked my wife why she herself never chose to share it with me, she said she was afraid I would leave her! I told her that as much as it hurt to read those things all assembled in one place, it was the type of information that one person NEEDS to share with the other when they're in a committed relationship. I also told her that I hoped she saw that all of those things she had written were things that I was turning around on my own, without her ever having shared them with me. She said she did see that, but that she is so angry at herself for not having honored her feelings and told me about them, and angry at me--as unfair as it may be since she didn't share her feelings with me--for not just being a person who she wouldn't have to write those things about in the first place.
I am dealing with an extremely angry person. I think I'm only beginning to understand/appreciate the anger. In fact, it worries me. It seems like the type of anger that...just might not dissipate to a degree that would be required for her to get past her pain and resentment and open up to working on us.
DM,
As long as you keep working on those issues, there's a good chance that anger will dissipate. 5 years ago, you might have dismissed the paper and her anger; now? Now you see the validity of it.
My wife could be angry for many of the things I was in the past, hell I could be angry with her...but that doesn't serve our purpose today, or help us with or tomorrows.
Keep up the positive changes, I think in time, you'll see her anger lessen, you'll both have to deal with it, talk through it in time, but...I think it will fade.
Last night my wife told me that she found a piece of paper in her drawer that had apparently been there for a couple of years. It was something she had written in therapy, listing many (although probably not all) of the things she was unhappy about in our relationship. I asked her if I could see it. It was pretty brutal...but nothing that I could argue with. Everything she had written was the truth.
It boggled my mind to think that for the past few years there's been a piece of paper with such important information on it sitting in a drawer just a few feet away from me. Why didn't her therapist ever tell her to share that info with me?!?! When I asked my wife why she herself never chose to share it with me, she said she was afraid I would leave her! I told her that as much as it hurt to read those things all assembled in one place, it was the type of information that one person NEEDS to share with the other when they're in a committed relationship. I also told her that I hoped she saw that all of those things she had written were things that I was turning around on my own, without her ever having shared them with me. She said she did see that, but that she is so angry at herself for not having honored her feelings and told me about them, and angry at me--as unfair as it may be since she didn't share her feelings with me--for not just being a person who she wouldn't have to write those things about in the first place.
I am dealing with an extremely angry person. I think I'm only beginning to understand/appreciate the anger. In fact, it worries me. It seems like the type of anger that...just might not dissipate to a degree that would be required for her to get past her pain and resentment and open up to working on us.
Again, this sounds exactly like my situation.
My wife is angry for holding onto past conflicts for so long. Our therapist said there's a chance she may never be able to let them go.
It's hard for me to imagine. It seems like forgiveness is a choice. For both of our wives' sake, I hope they can learn to forgive, or they will be in their "jail" forever.