Just continuing the thread.
So the past few weeks have been both hard and exciting.
This is all new to me. I have never been on my "own" and I never expected that I would be the one to WA. Yes.. I made the choice to leave and I put forth the effort that made that happen. I was not happy with it but there just really was no other choice. We had done the C thing and it just never seemed to go anywhere. I found myself just really wanting out. Our ideas were not that different but we could not find a common ground.
As expected I have found out that people are not who they say they are.
I have been disappointed by a few people.
But my R with some people has been renewed and made stronger.
My big concern thru a lot of the past 2 years has been that my wife has not been honest with me. There was just always that little voice that told me she was not "all in".
Lets just say that I got confirmation of that this past Friday night.
But this does not excuse my actions over the past 2 years in any way.
But it does allow me an out.
I am OK with someone breaking the deal.
I am not OK with someone lying to me about it.
I have known for a while.. and it took me a while to act upon it. It came up in C and she denied it. I pressed the issue.. and was told I was crazy. Even the C questioned it.
The C was told that was a "crazy" idea.
So what I am left with is me WA from my wife. My son has been a trooper thru this. I have actually had him with me alot. He wants to be with me and we have a good time. My D wants nothing to do with me. I can chalk it up to her being 16 (almost 17) and being mad at the world.. but I just feel like that is not the case. She is my wife's twin and they are more friends than Mother/Daughter. So I find it hard to even find a place to grab and start moving forward with her.
So the task I need help with is how to break the ice with the D.
I call.. I text.. I checkup.. I offer.
I need some ideas beyond that.
Vague is your post.
Although the gist of it...I think I got it.
On to the thing I can address.
Your Daughter.
Simply put, a very good friend gave me very good advice when my teenage boy was being a gigantic [censored].
"You cannot give up on him."
In your case:
"You cannot give up on her."
Your her father, no matter what else, you have to keep reaching out to her.
Anything part of your response tht contains a but...and your just whinning. Stop whinning, entitlement ends when you have a kid.
Forest a good friend of mine is going through something quite similar with her daughter of the same age.
Keep trying. Be there.
I can't stress enough how important fathers are to their daughters.
She'll come around eventually.
Forrest.... buddy....
That is all you can do for now..
Just let her know that you are there for her daily.
SHOW her how much she means to you when you are around her...
I was in a similar position, and what you describe with the Mother /Friend thing, rings really close to home for me.
What seemed to work was when I could seperate the learned behavior from the normal teenage behavior.
The normal....well.....there is a reason it is called normal...
The learned, was what I concentrated on with her.
I set rules/boundaries that were age appropriate for her, and would have been set, regardless the circumstances.
Did it make me popular ? Not by a long shot.
I also got down on her level, to get to know her...
Through time, and consistantly letting her ( and showing her ) know that I loved her and was there for her WHEN SHE WAS READY...
We are slowly getting there....
Parenting is a work in process that will never end.
Maybe slow down a bit....but not end.
As far as failing ??????
You only have failed when you think you have failed. Right now. she is a teenager. All parents have failed in the eyes of a teenager.
The true results won't be available until much later in life, and you have the chance to make a difference in her life now, that will pay off in the future.....
A wise man once posted to .... "Do Work"
I can't imagine any work, that has the promise to be more rewarding, than raising a child....
A little story for you if you care to peruse.....
One evening, an older father with a young teenage son started to ponder the reasons that their relationship had been fading recently. He had still been active in his young teen-aged son's life, or so he thought. They had done all of the same things he had done with his Father, yet the relationship didn't feel quite right to him. Words were sporadic, and interests varied.
This troubled the Father considerably. During his thoughts, he wondered what could close the gap so that their relationship would prosper. He thought of all of the things they could do together. They could go fishing, they could find an old car to work on. These were things he had done with his Father. They were doable, yet his son's activities always seemed to be in the way.
One evening, during the spring, he had an epiphany. He would take his son on a road trip for a month. They would travel to each city that they could, and see a professional Baseball game in each stadium. His Son loved baseball, and it seemed like an option that would make his Son very happy.
They started their journey in late spring. One by one, they visited each stadium , saw almost every team, and really connected on a level that the Father thought was an impossible bridge to cross. The Father saw his Son in a light he had never seen before. And the best of those times, became less about the games and more about the times when they weren't at the park, or consumed with the materialistic things that came with the trip.
One evening, nearing the end of their journey, they were sitting in Fenway Park. The Father had procured special seats for this, the last game they were to see together on this tour.
The Father started talking to a man in the stands, telling him all about their adventures throughout the trip. The man seemed amazed that the Father would do such a thing, prompting him to say to the Father...
" You must really love Baseball a lot ".
To which the Father replied....
" No, not really....but I love my Son that much "
Forrest,
I gotta agree with the guys...
You can't quit but you may have to take a different angle...
When I was a teenager, my father (he has since told me) felt much like you (although for different reasons)...
He just didn't know what to do, so he did nothing...
I am almost fourty now. I have a decent relationship with him but not as close as it could have been, and there is frustration when NOW he chooses to try to act like he should have then...
Keep letting her know you are there for her...
Teenage girls and dads...is awkward at best anyway for a while...
So what are her passions, her interests, her likes?
How can you get to her level?
So, there was another man involved? Or woman? I am sorry Forrest. I always felt you and Jenny were meant to be together. From what you've told me, I thought you couldnt divorce, not that you didnt want to, you couldnt, you know?
My H's xBiL, "lost" 17-18 yr old his son after their divorce. He refuses to talk to him after 2 years almost. His father quit 6 months ago. The boy told me, "I knew he would give up eventually, he really didnt love me that much". (Sidenote: his father's R with his brother is VERY close, THAT played a big role.) But he was sad.
So, I agree, do not give up.
Stay strong
xxx
K
Whatever happens with your wife don't give up on your daughter. Coming from a daughter with no relationship with her father you have to keep trying and trying, your relationship with her will influence all of her male relationships in her life. I realize now that I seek out men like my father who are distant and not really there. You want her to have a loving happy relationship for herself and sadly your relationship with her will be a big factor in that. It is hard being a teenage girl even in the best of situations she will push you away. Don't just focus on your son and leave her out. Keep trying. Show her you love her even if you don't feel it back. She is the same little girl on the inside as she was when she was 5 looking for her daddy's love and time.
Forrest, One thought comes to my mind and its in the title of a song...........
Altho this was a son / father relationship it holds very true
The cats in the cradle...........llalalla
My father left me emotionally at about the age of 13, I always thought i was a daddy's girl.....He was an alcoholic workaholic.
I felt devastated!, If he had only reached out to me, if only he had tried to have a relationship with me..
If only's.......Have plagued me alot of my life.
My Dad committed suicide when i was 27 he was 52, We never formed a bond.....he actually killed himself after we had a blow up about my boyfriend ( Whom is my Hubby for 28 years now )
We spoke words of anger, and things went silent.....
Please try to connect with your daughter...It just takes a little effort on both parts.
Mach.gave U very good advise.
I'm sorry your in the situation U are. Im a long time lurker on this site..and I have read every post of yours from the beginning.
Best Wishes; Sunny
Forrest....dont give up on her, shes angry right now and shes a teenager!!
Sunny
"Vague is your post."
If into the security recordings you go.. only pain will you find.
I intended it that way Jack simply because I don't want to start the thread wandering into "gossip land".
The key to what has happened is that for a long time now I have always had that feeling that I was missing part of the story. It has been discussed with my wife. I was assured that it was just my imagination. Everything I have ever done that was "wrong" has been hashed over a lot. But when it came to discussing her side of things they were brushed over and dismissed. Even in the C sessions. The C even questioned a lot of the statements made by her and once again it was brushed over and dismissed.
Well I got to hear the whole story finally. Not from her.. but from her counterpart. I knew the bulk of the story but there were parts that never seemed "complete". I don't have to worry about that now. Her "friend" happened to move into the same apartment I just moved into. We happened to run into each other and had a little "sit down".
I have long said that the affair was not a deal breaker. And it isn't. The deal breaker for me was that she chose to hold me accountable and hide all her secrets. This is what has set things in motion.
This to me is why C never went anywhere. I mean how can you be dishonest and expect things to change? Once the C seemed to falter or become non-productive it was obvious to me that something more drastic had to happen. Now 3 weeks later I have confirmation that I was not asking for anything unreasonable or placing undue accusations upon her.
But.. Jack..
Some good news is that I got a call yesterday and both kids wanted to come and spend the night. I was a bit taken aback by it. I said sure. So my D and my S spent the evening with me last night and are hanging out by the pool today. We had dinner with my Mom and Dad and then went back to my place. I just got back from going home for lunch and they both seemed to be having a good time. Now all this could have been because my wife had a date last night.. but I am hoping it was just them wanting to come over. D was pleasant and I even saw her smile and laugh a few times.
Time will tell.
and effort on your part.
I am glad you had a good time with your kids.
I am saddend by your wife's duplicity...however...I am not glad...The idea that this...limbo you were in was of her making and failure to commit to the marriage, I am glad that won't be causing you guilt.
It all comes out in the end, and usually where and when you least expect it.
I am glad both of your kids were there with you. With your D, just keep being there for her. Keep asking and keep trying. Little things like hanging out by the pool will always help. Kids say they don't like their parents bothering them, but they know it is because you care and that is all that matters.
"I always felt you and Jenny were meant to be together. From what you've told me, I thought you couldnt divorce, not that you didnt want to, you couldnt, you know?"
Yea I get it. I never imagined myself "here". I expected more. It was hard to WA I can't deny that. But I am not who I was 4 years ago. She said alot in C that she expected "more" but there was never a clear idea of what "more" was. I am a simple guy. I have been clear with what I need and want. I used simple words. When she looked at me and said "I don't think you can be what I need." It was time to go.
Trust me.. a year from now ish.. it is gonna be hard to "stand on the porch" and hand over the papers. But I will do it with a smile. And I still wish her the best.
"I knew he would give up eventually, he really didnt love me that much".
I am not giving up. I am still posting. I still need help.
The help that I have gotten from all the posters here is exactly what I need. Even if it is just the confirmation of what I already had in mind.
My boss is coming to Greece soon.
Can he still find you?
"The cats in the cradle...........llalalla"
No it goes..
and the silver spoon.
Little boy blue and the man in the moon.
When you coming home dad.
My question is why did Dad/Son mention the silver spoon? Or Little boy Blue.. or the man in the Moon?
From one perspective "Dad" was always home.
From the other he was never home.
The "Silver Spoon" indicates to me that dad was working to make his family complete. He assured that they had all they needed.
Where dad was found lacking was in the time he spent with the "family". He was lacking cause he was always working.
This goes back to my thought that the things we look for in life.. are not always what we need.
What we find attractive in people at the begining.. really becomes an annoyance later in life.
Or to be more clear.. "We" don't grow together.
"I'm sorry your in the situation U are. Im a long time lurker on this site..and I have read every post of yours from the beginning."
Don't be sorry for me. Or the stitch I find myself in. I made the choice to be "here". I am happy that I walked this walk.
I am so excited that you were a long time lurker and you decided to post!
And I am really impressed that you read all my posts. That was a task.
Sunny..
Thanks.
Forest I am so sorry that your wife was less than honest. No wonder you couldn't make any headway with her. She wasn't all in.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways...this describes your wife.
I am glad I met you on here. I wish you much happiness now the air is clear.
The situation you were in, is simalr to what I was in for as long as H wasnt honest AND at the same time tried to "work on us", to reconcile. There was something missing, remember all my agonizing posts about something feeling off? He did the same thing, he denied tyhe truth in C, those sessions didnt go anywhere just because we werent both on the same level.
SO I can understand the relief of finally KNOWING that you werent kookoo, that your senses and ability to read her wasnt off, that you were "right" all along. LIttle consolation that is, I know, but the truth is always liberating...
It doenst really matter why your D came to visit. It matters that you had a good time, I think.
I am here, but why would he want to find me?
Take care my friend
K
So she cheated on you, for the 2nd time? I remember you posting she'd cheated or at least you believed she had the first time.
If you focus on the kids 100% and set the best example it would probably take 2-4 years to turn their ship around in your direction.
And yes D's need steady fathers or they invariably grow up messed up in the head. Don't worry too much about the anger and being buddies with mom, stay cool and consistent, it'll only last so long. Can you help with her H/W and college apps?
Hey Forest, are you around?
Well FB2 no she did not cheat again persay she just never fully took responsibility for her actions. She dismissed my questioning of her actions. I will try and get an update in tonight. Right now I am posting from my phone and enjoying some time with my son by the pool.
I'm glad to see you Forest , even if it's not the greatest place to be. Hugs to you.
"So, any success yet?"
Defining success in these moments is hard FB2. Just like you it is not a place I wanted to be. It has been both exciting and nerve wracking. There are days when I am totally happy and loving life and there are days when I miss the security my mind seems to think I had.
I love my new place. It is convenient to work and to "home". The mix of people that live there make it 10 times more interesting also. There are people from all walks of life. We have a huge courtyard with a pool, a fire pit, volleyball, grilling area, cornhole, and bocce ball court. There is always something going on. You could almost never leave and have an endless source of entertainment. Along with that comes the thought that there are lots of people that have issues much greater than mine. There are 2 other guys that live there and we have become known as the "Divorced Guys Club". We are all pretty close in age and have very similar stories. Sometimes I am amazed at this whole other world that exists outside of the married world.
My kids are doing OK. I am concerned about my daughter in the fact that somehow I get placed in the middle of her "drama". I have clearly become the bad guy and can't seem to break out of that cycle. She had a "fight" with my mom on my birthday and somehow I took the brunt of it when it really had nothing to do with me. I have called and texted and tried to have a face to face to no avail. I had to get my son a phone over the weekend because the only way to call him is either thru the D's phone or the X's phone. It is pretty funny that an 8 year old has a HTC EVO now. It at least keeps the lines open with him and he can contact me directly.
The X has taken the stance thru most of this that when we split the kids would not really want anything to do with me. Even up till the last days she was telling me that I should not take offense if they did not want to come. This has played out a bit different than she thought and I am now hearing from her that we need to work harder on being there for them. She has complained that they have had a few break downs. I am just not sure what I could do in those moments that would help. I am hearing about them after the fact. My son has indicated that mommy is "invisible".. and he has been doing pretty much anything he wants. Staying up late.. sleeping late.. playing on the computer/xbox. Not exactly sure what to do with that either. They just got back from vacation and my son indicated that him and the X had had a few moments. He said that he blamed "Jenny" for all this. I asked why and he said "because mom said it was her fault". We had a discussion about it was a choice me and mom had made together and no 1 person was to blame. He seemed to understand and I felt better about it. The X is dating someone new and I have been dating also.
The R.. or what is left of it between me and "Jenny" is not good. I really don't seek her out or want to have meetings with her. The distance and not having to interact with her has been a blessing in disguise. She had always said that she did not want to be the people dropping off kids in a Wendy's parking lot.. but it is what we have become. I am not proud of it but we have not been able communicate for 18 years I am not sure why she thought more distance would help that situation. We cannot have a conversation without her calling me some kind of name.. or pointing out some flaw of mine. Repulsive is the new word of the week.
So I guess that catches everyone up.
Friday will be 2 months.
Sounds like life Forrest...
<< There are 2 other guys that live there and we have become known as the "Divorced Guys Club".
Vent until you get 90% of the 18 years of accumulated crap out of your system. May take years.
<< My kids are doing OK.
Probably just on the surface and for now. Jenny will use D to whack you 2x4 style until it comes back to hit her. You will get blamed for and sucked into all D's drama with Jenny as stage director.
<< it was a choice me and mom had made together and no 1 person was to blame.
Strange choice. In my case I did not make the choice and I know who was to blame. Usually 1 person makes this choice and years before it comes to pass.
<< we have not been able communicate for 18 years I am not sure why she thought more distance would help that situation.
Heard this one too. People come up with more nonsense to justify their bad decisions and actions. Some even get divorced "for the sake of the children". Faulting and labeling you is another attempt at this sort of justification. This will probably continue until she finds someone or something better to do and the guilt wears off. Like some others I had to battle a lot of this in court at huge expense. I found its best to establish clear and firm boundaries, the earlier the better.
<< The X is dating someone new and I have been dating also.
So, quickly? The dust hasn't even settled. By the way, odds are she will get hooked onto someone much sooner than you and that will trigger another stage in the on-going drama.
"Vent until you get 90% of the 18 years of accumulated crap out of your system. May take years."
They all vent to me. I have had close to 2 years to get most of the stuff straight in my head. Even though we were "together" we weren't. The hardest thing is really just getting used to saying the X wife. Or calling the house Home. There is really not much left in me. I have seen and felt both sides. I have been a LBS and I have been a WAS. I have seen the effects of both situations.
"Probably just on the surface and for now. Jenny will use D to whack you 2x4 style until it comes back to hit her. You will get blamed for and sucked into all D's drama with Jenny as stage director."
I get that it is a on the surface thing. It again is just proof of the perception's that people use. Here is Jenny telling me that the kids will not want to be with me and that I was/am a horrible father. This was her basis for actions all along. If the kids really felt that way then why would there be any emotion attached to it at all? I mean if the kids really felt that way and I was a horrible father they should be glad to see me go. It is disappointing that things had to go this far for me to be "right" and it was never my intention to prove that.. but here I am. I am trying with the D but she seems resistant still. I asked her if she would like to go to dinner just me and her and I got IDK. But when the car would not start I was the first person she called.
"Strange choice. In my case I did not make the choice and I know who was to blame. Usually 1 person makes this choice and years before it comes to pass."
I can agree with that. Still it takes 2. Anyway you look at it we all had a hand in the downfall. It could be just a simple lack of knowledge or communication. From what I read here and what has transpired in my personal life 9 times out of 10 it really is one of those simple core issues. I mean how many times do you hear.. if only X had happened.
"Heard this one too. People come up with more nonsense to justify their bad decisions and actions"
But what if the nonsense is really how you "see" life? What seems like BS to you or me.. could be the most important thing to someone else.
"I found its best to establish clear and firm boundaries, the earlier the better."
My boundary has become I don't want a part in the life you have chosen. She is free to do as she chooses. I have no expectations. All I can do is try and keep the lines open with my kids. I knock when I go to the house and I respond with yes or no answers to her texts.
"So, quickly? The dust hasn't even settled. By the way, odds are she will get hooked onto someone much sooner than you and that will trigger another stage in the on-going drama."
This event did not kick up a lot of dust. I can't say that I don't agree it is a bit fast. I have been open with my friend and I am not out there "Doing Work". It is nice to know that there is someone out there that enjoys your company. I don't see it being a long term thing. I don't think she does either. By all accounts it is casual. No sex. I cannot even risk that being a possible thought. I have to wait a year (well 10 months now). Jennys R's won't trigger much drama with me.. I have had experience with that.
I am trying with the D but she seems resistant still. I asked her if she would like to go to dinner just me and her and I got IDK. But when the car would not start I was the first person she called.
IDK is much better than no.
just keep doing what you're doing. mix it up a little. you may have to do what 16 y.o. girls do. take her to a concert.
but she does know you are trying. and she does turn to you for help. and this is very good. make her car break down more often.
i dont think you'll get the response you want, but you have to find a way to be ok with that. sometimes just knowing you're there watching from the wings will be all she wants/needs.
Looks like emotionally you are in a good place. I can accept unintended lapses in communication and knowledge but I have serious trouble with dishonesty and bad intent which is probably at the heart of it all.
FG2-
In my REAL job I am a physical/chemical scientist. When we write we write sorta vaguely...in the past, in the impersonal...kinda like you write. The only problem is...sometimes, you don't REALLY know what is going on with each person who is witnessing an observation. We started doing so because we document in a way that will pass audit. You are documenting to pass audit here.
And yet, I doubt that is your intention with my experience of you here. You don't really 'care' what others think, you are just evaluating your situation as such.
(What is YOUR take on what I just said?)
FG--join me in KLA 2011. Notify the mods. You know I still keep in touch with them.
Our demons are important. Your wife could not have been expected to have been 'all in' all along. It isn't remotely realistic.
Maybe you really are done. Maybe KLA 2011 or 2015 is realistic to you.
You are important to DB. You are important to DB.com. You are important to sg.
I think you are important to FG. I hope so.
SG the mod.. you are killing me.
I got the join you in KLA.. and demons are important.
After that I was totally confused at who you were talking to.
FB2 is important to me. I like him posting. We stood on the porch together. I was "here" (DB.com).. he was on the porch. I expect him to temper his responses. He is a bit awkward at times.. but he did not want to stand on the porch. I saw the work he did. That is enough for me.
FG, I meant Jenny's dishonesty and bad intent - not admitting infidelity in MC and continuing to fault you and now using D15 as a weapon instead of putting in some work. I too have a D15 and she's come a long way, and that's a lot of work too. Anyway you now seem in a solid place emotionally after the move out. I'm not sure what exactly SG was trying to say or to whom but that's ok.
FG--
I was talking about and to YOU. Because you talk vaguely. Sometimes you talk in a way that we can 'see' what is really going on, and sometimes you don't. I meant I hope you are important to yourself because sometimes you seem self-destructive especially in your relationship with your wife. You're 'in' and you're 'out'. And you have the right to be that way, but it's hard to achieve the goal that way.
I was also saying I care about you and the folks at DB care about you.