Original thread:
I never thought I would be back here again.... 2/14/2003 - H moves back in after I successfully DB through him leaving due to unhappiness and my A.
12/12/2007 - H moves from Chicago to Seattle for a job. I stay home to sell the house and we live apart for almost 8 months. During this time he gets friends (didn't have any before), works out and gets in shape and becomes happier with himself.
10/??/2009 - H suggests we see an MC after we have been discussing on and off the frustration at our lack of fire in the bedroom. We go 4 or 5 times and H brings up D if we can't fix this. I freak out since I think the rest of the M is good - he thinks on it and decides that yes we should stay together. We have a renewed vigor.
12/??/2009 - H brings up the idea of having kids. We try to get pregnant for 8 months and finally conceive. I miscarry in month 3.
4/16/2011 - H drops the bomb after a day filled with future plans and after I'd fallen asleep in bed. He spends the next days avoiding the house at all costs.
4/21/2011 - I leave for my parents for 2 weeks. I go completely dark for a full 7 days at the end. H starts splitting our things and sends me a financial split suggestion for the D.
5/5/2011 - I come back and things are uncomfortable in the house. H makes himself available for talking and we do R talks. Of course this is not helping as he is so defensive at this point. H and I tentatively agree to a financial split. I'm supposed to be going through the house selecting what things I want.
So that's where we are right now. As people suggested in the last thread and my own goals state, I need to stop the R talks with H. I need to try and make this house less uncomfortable for him to be in right now.
I have a few major problems though, (1) He's not expecting me to stay too long. He thinks I'm going to go through my things here and then go move on with my life wherever that takes me. (2) Moving on with my life is hard here in Seattle where I have few friends, no job, etc. (3) He's familiar with DB and all the practices and books, etc. He is convinced that while we can work on things, it only band-aids the real root problem of our lack of chemistry to put it briefly.
People in the last thread suggest I embrace the sensual side of myself. I guess I'm not sure what all that means? Flirting? What else? What things can I do when the last thing he wants to do is be in the same room with me or have me flirt with him, etc. Suggestions!?
As far as embracing your sensuality goes, I'd suggest this is primarily an attitude. I don't recommend being flirty with your H right now because he's likely to see that as pursuit.
In my experience confident women, comfortable in their skin, no matter what their looks, are very attractive. When they feel good about themselves, they radiate. It reflects in the way they walk, the way they smile and they have a general openess that is very winning.
I suggest you start by re-building your confidence and think about a dance class to help you ground yourself in your body. There are some good resources out there to help women get in touch with their 'inner goddess', I imagine Seattle might even be one of the better places for it, lol.
I'm suggesting you do this for you, to feel more comfortable with yourself and don't focus at all on your H. Believe me if you get that open, confident walk that says 'here I am', the gentle twinkle in your eye that says 'I like myself and I'm not sure you can handle me'and an open smile, he'll notice without you having to say a word to him.
Best of luck.
That is wonderful advice, and I second that.
Become more confident with you, and hopefully the rest will fall into place.
Talked with a DB coach today. Very excellent job at steering me right on track and getting to the real root of the issue & the real actions that are going to make this work.
I'm going to recapture that girl he fell in love with both when we met and in 2003. The one that was confident, sexy, enthusiastic, assertive and interesting. And of course we do this by... GAL. It's really tough as I can clearly see how the depression is affecting me in this matter and how it has been holding me back. I'm really resistant even in my own mind to doing things. But I pushed through it today. I signed up for a bunch of things on meetup.com (if it's available in your area, try it out) and I'm going to a few events this week. I'm also pinging my one friend here to see if she wants to do any of this too.
I'm back to my workouts with my personal trainer today now that I'm back in town. I don't have a lot of energy because I'm not eating but I really did come out of there with a more positive attitude - part of it was a choice and part of it was probably the exercise so that was good.
In general I'm feeling a bit more empowered today and that's what it is all about. I'm also very tired and have been the past few days. I think I'll take a nap and then start cleaning up the house... and make sure I'm doing that when H gets home with a SMILE on my face and a happy attitude.
Edmond Dantes, thanks. You are dead on. I can do all that. Zumba is pretty popular out here so I might give it a whirl because it sounds fun.
I'm glad to hear you sounding so well! Exercise is a great source of endorphins and all it takes is 12 minutes of elevated heart rate to kick in. Good for you.
I can sense the attitude I think you're looking for in your last post, truly, I think if you follow that path you will almost certainly attract the love and fun you are wanting.
H sent me some messages today about whether I'd gotten appointments with a C or not & what my plans were. I said we could talk about it at home. I needed to prep myself for the conversation.
When he came home I was busy doing stuff - cleaning, etc. I tried to keep upbeat and matter-of-fact during the conversation. I told him that I didn't know what my plans were and I didn't know how long this was going to take me to figure it out. He isn't happy with the ambivalence but he understands that I have huge decisions to make.
I tried to steer the conversation into unexpected areas today, per the DB coach's advice. I smiled as much as possible but it probably wasn't quite as vibrant as it could have been.
Not a surprise but he said he will probably get an apartment now due to the fact he doesn't know how long I'm going to take. I told him I was willing to try to make this home living situation work - if we wanted to schedule time in the living room I would honor any rules set forth and give him his space, etc. He's just so terribly uncomfortable right now and wants out... so I said I understood.
It was basically setting down what I need (time and counseling), validating and keeping a positive upbeat attitude.
He came to talk again. I just listened and validated as much as I could. I know he's frustrated by my lack of a timeline but I just don't know exactly where to go right now.
He doesn't want to get an apartment if he doesn't have to which I understand but he is so terribly uncomfortable being here. He explained to me that it's more about the fact that I can "keep track" of him while he's here - I can hear things through the floors and the walls (him walking, talking, watching tv, anything). He has little privacy. It actually doesn't have as much to do with R talks or anything I'm doing exactly.
This morning he got up early and went to work out. I got up around the time he got back and disappeared so he could have some space. He's so uncomfortable here that he won't even eat here. He treats this as a place to sleep and that's pretty much it.
Well hopefully I threw a little mystery by being out of the house at least. I have a meetup tonight about tantra and women's sexuality - I figured that might be a good thing to work on along with GAL and there just happened to be a work group tonight. Hope it's not too weird!
Actually let me rethink that comment I made about "He treats this as a place to sleep and that's pretty much it.".
He doesn't want to get an apartment for a few reasons. (1) money, (2) the hassle and (3) he wants this house and expects me to leave so he doesn't want to move out only to have to me move out the shortly thereafter sticking him with a long lease. (In our asset split, he gets the house.)
So he has been going up in his room and surfing the web. I'm pretty sure last night he was watching a movie when I went to bed. He does come down to talk to me. I told him if he wanted the living room just let me know and he said "not now but maybe later". He never did ask for it but he's a bit more open to it.
Yesterday I cleaned up his room and moved the rest of his clothes in there along with a small dresser & put all the laundry away. I rearranged the room a bit and moved some stuff out so he would have more room. I unpacked his "to go" bag and just did a lot of little things that I know he likes to have (nailed a clock to the bathroom wall so he can keep track of time when in the shower, made sure he had a power strip and all the plugins for his devices, etc). I knew doing this could possibly backfire but I want him to be comfortable and if he has a "cave", maybe that will help a little. I can't really help the flow of sound in this house though...
I think your meeting tonight sounds wonderful. I imagine even if it's not exactly what you are looking for it may well tune you into something that is your speed.I hope you have some fun and meet some interesting people.
Now, I must say, I think your efforts to make him feel at home are inadvisable. If he is concerned about his privacy, I can't imagine how he's going to feel when he discovers you have gone through and re-arranged his things and room. I understand you were well intentioned but this strikes me as an invasion of privacy.
It sounds to me from your description that you are fussing over him. To a man, this feels like pursuit. I suggest you absolutely stop 'anticipating his needs' and watching his every reaction for clues to his mental state. Stop doing his laundry, asking him what he wants or cleaning up after him. By all means be respectful but don't hang on his every word. Just my opinion.
I hope you have a blast tonight. Take care.
I just know it makes him feel more at ease when he can find his clothes and things more easily (ie laundry is put away etc) and it totally bugs him not to have a clock in the shower area (he actually asked me to get a clock in our master bath for a while).
I'm not doing his laundry, I was just separating out laundry that he actually did while I was gone. It was just a big mixed pile.
But you're right. It's an invasion of what little privacy he has and probably pursuit at this point. I'll stop doing things like this.
Calystra,
I did the same thing when my W set up in the spare bedroom. I made her bed everyday, set her clothes out for her, cleaned the room, and put items in there I thought she would like.
It backfired, even though I had the best of intentions. My W told me she hated our house and was so uncomfortable there. We learn from our mistakes.
Thanks islander, hopefully I can stop this fast enough to do some good here. I don't think I can make this house comfortable for him right now no matter what I do because of the sitch. So I'll just keep up with the GAL bit, keep talking to the coach and give it all some time.
Calystra - I think we often make the mistake of not realizing that the one thing we have is time. I have often made mistakes by setting time goals and then showing frustration when things didn't go according to MY agenda. The patience thing is so tough to master, but we really do have time right up until the day it's officially over. So...do exactly what you said. Give it some time.
Well time in my case is a double-edged sword. The longer I take, the more I'm probably going to tick him off. I guess we see. I need to make the right decisions for me and that's going to take time to figure out. I'm on an emotional roller coaster right now and that decision changes every day so I'd like to achieve some stability before I go moving 2000 miles across the country.
Bunch of people backed out on that meetup tonight and it was only going to be me and the organizer so I felt a little weird about it. So I backed out too but I'll just make sure to leave the house and go do something for a while anyways.
I'm heading out the driveway and meet H who walks home from work. He waves. I wave. He hesitates like he's going to talk to me so I unlock the door. Now I told him yesterday that I needed the car tonight and he said that was ok, he would just use his bike.
He asks me how long I'm going to be and I said 'I don't know'. He says well he doesn't think he should need the car, he guesses he can just bike. I said ok well we can try to work something out if he wants. He says no, he'll just bike. Then he asks where I'm going. I said to a meetup group. He says oh ok, you said you had some kind of appointment (that is what I said yesterday). Then I left.
Interesting interaction to say the least. I come home and it looks like he never even left to go meet his friends. Hmm. Ok.
I came home and changed, then got on my computer and turned on the TV. About 40 minutes later he comes down from his room and announces that he's going to go read somewhere. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut so he could make his own mistakes but I remind him it's 10pm at night and most things are closed. He goes to look up a place on yelp and finds a pub instead and is going there to listen to live music I guess.
Oh I forgot to mention he asked how my meetup went. I had to come clean and say I didn't go because it was weird and just had dinner with my friend.
Sounds positive to me. I hope you'll keep your focus on you and work on being a better, more interesting person just for yourself. It's just a bonus, I think, that he seems interested in your growth too.
I bet you'll be surprised at how quickly he becomes 'more comfortable' around the house the more he wonders what you are getting up too next.
I went to bed before he came home. He left this morning before I got up. Bleh. This limbo part is hard.
Got back from my workout - I'm in such a better mood now. Exercise is totally the answer. Even if I don't feel like going and I'm down in the dumps, I have to keep remembering to force myself to get out there and exercise.
I made myself scarce and he was already home when I got home tonight. He wanted to talk...
H: Do you know what you're doing yet?
M: No, I don't know.
H: (silence)
H: I still want to move along with the paperwork. If I brought the divorce paperwork would you sign it?
M: (quiet for a little) Yes, I told you I wouldn't block this.
H: You said you were going to.
M: I never said that, I won't.
H: You said you didn't want it and you wanted a separation instead.
M: Yes that is what I want. You know where I stand on this. But I'm not going to block it.
H: Ok. That's all I had then.
Grrr. Someone lend me a 2x4 ... I have someone stubborn to use it on who isn't me...
Hey Calystra - just checking in on you. If I had a 2x4, I could reach him with, I would gladly do it for you. I hate the fact that our spouses deny how much all of us here care and how hard we work to save our families.
We deserve so much more.
That whole thing last night really brought my PMA down. I slept horribly, woke up probably 20 times during the night just in emotional pain, bad dreams, etc. I got up this morning but he was leaving as I came downstairs so no words exchanged. I'm dreading him dropping the paperwork down tonight.
I want to force a separation instead of signing it
Sometimes I think it would be best if I just left. I know still being in the house together presents a lot of opportunities to DB but still think I'm just hindering his ability to think. I'm also hindering my ability to heal and put myself in a good place since I'm constantly confronted with H's comings, goings and D discussions.
Seems I'm getting down again today. That means it's time to go get some exercise.
I also want to list out the positives in my sitch:
1. H is still in the house even though he wants the D.
2. H is giving me time to process everything.
3. I don't actually have the D paperwork yet.
4. H was curious about my activities on Tuesday.
5. I initiated a hug last week when I was feeling really down and H held me and rubbed my back. (I forgot about this one until today.)
6. H is feeling slightly more comfortable in the house I think.
7. H is open to communicating with me although I can tell he doesn't like it.
Well he announced that he found a place to rent. No details on when he's moving out yet.
And now he wants to get separate credit cards. I guess it's just one thing after another today.
Applied to jobs today. I have my friend in Chicago looking there. I have my old boss looking for me in Florida. I applied to about 6 jobs in the Florida area online. I also have one friend looking for me here in Seattle.
If I start getting some positive responses, I might need some new clothes for interviews...
Backslid just a little this morning. Got up and went downstairs before he left. He came down and asked me where the fan thing was for the air mattress and I said I didn't know. He looked for it for a little bit then left for work.
Before he went, I walked up to him and took his hand and said.
M: I wish you wouldn't do this.
H: I know. I just can't relax here.
M: I understand.
M: I think we can make this work.
H: I know. I'm sorry.
Then I let go of his hand and walked away a little weepy.
I know, bad girl. But I felt like I needed to say something about him walking out like this on me again.
H needs the car to move his stuff. I told him he would need to schedule time with me as I'm busy. He says busy tonight? I say busy tonight, tomorrow and Sunday.
So somehow we worked out that he will get the car tonight after I get back from being out with people - no idea when this ends.. midnight, 2am, etc. So silly.
Sorry I haven't been keeping up with your sitch, cal...
And sorry to hear he is finally moving out.
Take care of yourself this weekend. Try to keep out of his way and try not to help him in any way. This is his to own...
Cal,
Ouch...it does get better. One positive- Finally, you can hunt for a job without any consideration of what your h wants/needs. Seems perhaps like a small thing, but freedom is not a small thing. Embrace it.
(( hugs ))
It's hard to say it or believe it but him moving out is probably a good thing. I think he needs to be out of here to process and to de-stress/relax. We're both walking on eggshells around here and while I'm giving up opportunities to DB in person - it wasn't really effective when he was avoiding the house at all costs and unable to function.
I don't see how an air mattress and some clothes in an unfurnished expensive apartment helps but hopefully it does.
Cal,
Ouch...it does get better. One positive- Finally, you can hunt for a job without any consideration of what your h wants/needs. Seems perhaps like a small thing, but freedom is not a small thing. Embrace it.
(( hugs ))
Well, the job hunt is still hard. Do I stay here or do I move clear across the country? I applied in both places for now but I feel like moving away from here completely would be a mistake right now.
Side note. I really need to write down the crazy things he is doing and how he is not thinking right now. It will help me remember just how unstable he is even though he sounds so very sure of himself.
1 - Didn't realize I would want to look through all our possessions and decide for myself what to take or what not to take.
2 - Goes to get out of the house and read somewhere at 10pm after everything (ie coffee shops) are closed.
3 - Left his Kindle on the shelf here by the door and hasn't picked it up in 3 days. He is an avid reader and reads every day on his walk to and from work (a high point of his day for relaxing and relieving stress).
4 - Moves out of the house with only an air mattress and some clothes into an expensive short term rental.
5 - Needs the car tonight to move things yet he is going out drinking with his pals. Can't drive the car if you're drunk...
These are the only ones I can remember right now. You'd have to understand how my H is to understand why it's so odd for him to not think clearly, logically and intelligently about everything.
I think it is a requirement for a WAS to do things with out thinking.
I don't think you should move across the country, at least not yet. See what happens in your sitch, and leave on your terms, not to run away from something.
I know this, bc I felt the same way and truly thought about doing just that, even though I knew it was a rash decision at the moment. I still think about it, but in different terms. And I don feel rushed to do it either.
When h was at his "Go to the Tundra Alone" peak, I put in an application for a job in Italy, for a one year gig. My kids were FINE with it and I got excited too. I said nothing to h about it but he saw the job application. I am sure he wondered wth? And when he realized that WE would ALL go, and h would be wherever he was, idk, I think it got to him.
It was't a tactic though. It was an exciting back up plan. And it helped me realize that if things really went sour for us, I would be FINE and in touch with the advantages of being single. As it was, I mostly focussed on all the negatives. So, in that way, it was very good for me and ultimately for us.
My H said to me during one of our last R talks that when we were living apart for 7 months, he thought often of ending our R and getting a D. He said he was happy with himself, his friends and enjoyed living on his own, etc.
I think it's easy for someone in an R to see the greener grass because they are sitting with the loving support of their companion at all times (even if it's not that great at the given moment). He was all alone but he was never alone - we talked every day, we shared stories and even had "dates" online where we would watch the same movie and skype, etc. He was happy to speak with me, excited to tell me about what he was doing in his life, even created photo journals of his hikes and other things around the city for me and his family.
I can't say I was being the best wife, I certainly see my part in all of this and I'm doing what I can to change. But I was still being a wife and put few limitations on him - he could do what he wanted and when all his friends were busy or he wanted to feel a closer, deeper relationship, I was always there. I can only hope that the "magic" of his new life alone wears off soon and he realizes this.
the more you challenge his choices, the more he'll defend them. Let him discover the grass is greener where it gets the most water.
I agree that he'll eventually see things differently. You have to trust that the good memories will resurface, as long as you don't cloud them, with pressuring pursuit and other negatives he'll use to justify leaving. He KNOWS you want to stay m.
It takes time for their marital revisions to subside.
Good luck
the more you challenge his choices, the more he'll defend them.
Yeah I learned this last time. Hanging in there...
Well he partially moved out while I was out of the house tonight. From what he took it looks like he's sleeping on the floor of his new apartment with a pillow and one thin blanket. (Unless he stopped by somewhere to buy a new air mattress.) He said he took only what he immediately needed so I guess there will be a round 2 to the moving out... great. He didn't schedule time with the car yet.
I'm kind of glad he did it while I wasn't here. Last time he walked out the door with me watching and crying ... I really didn't want to do that again. It still hurts but at least now I don't have to suffer through the actual physical act.
Definitely easier to detach and keep my PMA up when he's not in the house. I also slept so much better. He contacted me to come over and use the car today but I'm busy til this afternoon so I had to tell him later.
Last night was a lot of fun, played a lot of board games I've never heard of before and met some nice people. Didn't make any close friends in those 3 hours but they do this every weekend it seems so it's something fun to look forward to.
PMA started to slide mid-day so I went out for a walk/run. Feel good again. Yay!
Just wanted to think out my progress so far on DB...
Other than the slight backslide the other day when he got the apartment, we haven't been having any R discussions. I haven't been pushing or pursuing.
There are things he doesn't like: (1) I haven't resisted the D though I want to look over the paperwork with my lawyer before I sign - he doesn't want to use lawyers. (2) I'm not making my mind up on what I want to do as far as staying or move, moving out of the house, etc so it "forces" him into the apartment and an undefined time schedule. (3) Scheduling time for the car is a pain.
I'm doing well on the GAL aspect. I've been to a couple social event and going out with my friend. I'm working out regularly and trying to get out to exercise every time my PMA dips. I've started the job search in various parts of the country. I'm going out and doing things by myself like shopping, eating and coffee shops etc.
I've started to detach although it's easier when he doesn't contact me. When he contacts me it usually sends me in a tailspin. I haven't gotten to that point of calm serenity that I remember from last time. This means I'm still on a bit of a roller coaster though I'm trying to control it. It also means I haven't begun the part of really identifying with his position so that I can validate him. I recognize my part in things though and that I can, and have been, working on. It's honestly really hard to validate him this time though because I feel he's the one more responsible this go around. He gave up on us after everything we learned from the first time. I'm going to have to find some way to get over that I guess.
Kinda along with the last thought, I haven't been able to put a smile on my face in every interaction with him. I haven't been negative but I haven't been happy either, just dealing with the facts and leaving emotion out of it. I'll need to work harder on that.
Calystra - I clearly remember the early days after STBX moved out. After only a few days, I became aware that the reality, wasn't nearly as scary as my expectations.
Daily life has actually been quite good for the last year and a half. Only when I looked to the past and focused on the situation, did things feel bleak. Yes, things did not end the way I hoped for, but I have learned so much and become such a better man, that I am finally able to accept it. I also know that I truly did everything I could to save my marriage and quit just in time to save myself.
So....you know this and you are going to be told it time and time again....but.....it will get easier with time and you will be more than just ok. You know all this. You just have to remind yourself whenever it doesn't feel like it.
Today is a housewarming party for a mutual friend. This particular friend falls more on the borderline (or even my side) of the fallout so I feel like even though a lot of "his" friends are going, this is something I can be at without too much issue.
Of course he's not going since I am going though. I still can't get over how someone can flip like a switch - one day with you, smiling at you, making plans with you and overnight can't even be in the same room with you.
Anyways, I'm looking forward to it and got them a cute little gift. I discussed the gift with him and at first he was indifferent until I asked what he thought at which point he opened up more and said it would be a good gift for them. (This was over email.) I'm going to make a point to say hi to "his" friends because up until recently they were my friends too. Then I'm just going to chill, meet some new people, hang out with my friends and have a good time.
He tried to schedule time with the car today so I gave him a call just to discuss that. I tried to be open to working with him but kept my boundaries about my plans. He decided he would just try tomorrow after work instead.
I was much more pleasant today in conversation but still kinda matter-of-fact instead of emotional. Still working on that...
Ugh.
So none of "his" friends showed up to the party. I guess I'm a complete pariah now. Tried to have a good time anyways and moderately succeeded.
And of course while I was out of the house, he stopped by and grabbed a few things he needed. I guess he just took the bus. It's so annoying that he can't even look me in the face after all this.
I know what you mean about looking you in the face. When my stbx left me back in '03, he was a bit like that. When he did look at me, he was guilt stricken. I changed the locks. It meant he had to see me to get his stuff, but it also meant that we didn't have petty arguments over things disappearing. He got mad, but how could he blame me for changing the locks when he moved out.
It's gut wrenching to even make the decision to separate from someone you love and have built a life with. It's even harder to actually make the break. Having been on both sides, my heart goes out to both of you.
Why would your H take the bus? Maybe one of "his friends" gave him a ride. Don't worry about them either. If they're petty and immature, you don't want to share them. If they're conflicted, they'll come around. Since they're the ones who didn't show up at the party, it reflects much less on you than it does on them.
Take care,
z
PMA is at a medium level for the past 2 days. Not a lot of stuff going on with meetup and all my friends are busy this week so I'm struggling a little with finding things to do. Yesterday I caught up on some TV shows and today I applied to jobs.
Anyways, onto the current sitch. I have not spoken to H since Sunday. I had a session with my DB coach yesterday and once again, he really put my focus in the right places. I see what I need to be doing now I just have to figure out how to get there...
I need to get to the point where I can be compassionate again. How do I validate when we do talk? How do I give him his words of affirmation? How do I let him know I understand how he feels and that it's OK to feel that way. I have to get myself in a place where I can do all these things.
The DB coach said something to me that made me tear up in empathy for my H - something like... "He's spent his whole life being told that negative emotions aren't ok to feel. That he needs to remove himself from the family and deal with them on his own. You need to make him understand that it's OK to feel what he is feeling." And in that moment, all the things that my H must be feeling just rushed into me and I started crying when I realized the pain he must be in. (I'm actually crying again now typing this out.) This I need to capture and bottle somehow so that I can be that safe place for him. I can see now how I have shut down his attempts to share difficult feelings and made it harder for him and I'm just so very sorry that I caused him this pain right now.
PMA down again today. Mornings continue to be the hardest part of the day. I have my workout in 10 minutes though so hopefully that will lift things up for a while.
I initiated a short conversation with H last night because I ran over my "anytime" minutes on our plan with all the phone calls to friends and parents. He looked into it and those minutes are just on my phone so he's ok to make calls - he said he would look into making a plan change to get me some more minutes for now. That was nice.
Other than that, haven't really spoken to him. Just waiting at this point... patience, patience, patience. It's so hard.
Waiting for what Calystra?
Waiting for him to work through whatever is going on in his head while I try to go on with my life as best I can.
You should know this from last time and I should have known it for the last 6 years: turn that sentence around and delete a word or three and it's much better. "Go on with my life while he works through whatever is going on in his head".
H stopped by to get the car and do some shopping. We chatted a little bit, he's uncomfortable talking to me still but I just tried to be positive and smiling. I asked some questions about how things were going with him and commiserated over something that happened at work.
He says he's going "stir crazy" downtown without a car or anything. He gets bored and walks around when he's not too busy with work.
He might need the car again tomorrow evening too - we'll see... I was thinking about going somewhere.
I just wanted to also mention that it was really nice talking about something that wasn't our R, the D or any logistics to this whole thing. We talked about working out, the nice day it was, his work and things like that. I miss my H!
I know how you feel, I miss my H also.
Like you, mornings are also harder for me because that was "our" time together.
Keep your chin up.
It's a beautiful spring day and all I can think of is how much I miss my H right now. I want to call him up so bad right now and plead and beg. This is a day I would normally walk down to his work so I could meet him and walk home... a day we would spend together walking around or out doing something active... a day we would share together.
Doesn't he miss having a companion to share things like this with? How can your best friend of 15 years suddenly decide they don't like you anymore overnight.
Calystra,
I'm pretty sure it isn't that he doesn't like you. For whatever reason he's decided he has to separate himself from you, but that's not necessarily a reflection on you. It's especially tough to separate when you still like/love your spouse. He probably misses you as much as you miss him, and is toughing it out. The time apart will certainly give you both space to think and GAL, perhaps most importantly it is an opportunity for your H to sort out what's bothering him about the R.
When my H left me in 2003 and our D was almost final, I had detached, gotten a life, and was making myself happy. I was in a good place and hoped to see the same in my H, but I didn't so I had a frank talk with him. After six months of separation that he had wanted for his own well being, he had to face up to the fact that nothing had improved in his life. It was clear that whatever the problem was, it wasn't me.
Hopefully your H will take this time alone to reflect on what is troubling him. If he really has to let go of the relationship for his own well being, then it will take an act of love for you to let him go. If he's just projecting his own problems onto the relationship, then the time apart may give him the ability to sort out the real problems. If he does something not so bright like distract himself from the real problems, then you may still have to let him find his way on his own. No matter how it turns out, being willing to let him go and grow is exactly what a best friend would do.
The more I think about it the more certain I am that he likes you. You're a good person.
--z
Been reading over people's sitch's and thinking about 180's that I can keep doing here. I thought about how good it felt just to have a normal conversation with H the other day so I decided to just ping him and say hi. We have not been talking at all and certainly not light happy conversations. It was short and I asked him about work, he actually said quite a bit. Then I ended it and told him I hope he gets to relax (since he's been working practically nonstop this week) and have a good day. He wished me a good day in return.
I hear you, cal.
If you've wandered over to my topic, I had a bit of a melt down over the past couple days. Things became good again last night when I chose to get happy again.
And then weird stuff... W contacting me out of the blue because of a change of heart regarding kids.
Point is, it has been a long, long time since we have actually talked and been anything resembling civil. And now, we cleared the air and might actually have a starting point to a new, decent relationship, regardless of the outcome.
Making inroads like it sounds your conversation was, only leads to a better future. Good for you! Keep it up and keep smiling!
Hey Kaffe, been keeping up on your sitch. In fact yours and a couple others are the ones that inspired my new lines of thinking.
One of the things I was trying to achieve with the conversation today is reminding him of the things he is giving up. He doesn't seem to realize it but he is losing the only person that he really confides in. He does not discuss the details of his life with anyone else. Sure he talks a bit to his family and a bit to his friends but those conversations ebb and flow and are not about his concerns, his work, his life, etc. He is giving up that one person he used to share all of those things with. It is very lonely I'm sure.
He immediately opened up to me about work and the troubles going on - he seemed very eager to discuss it with someone as he has been working very long hours on high stress things. I listened for a few minutes, validated and commented then ended the conversation and went offline. I remain mostly offline on gmail chat these days as opposed to before when I was always online. I want him to realize that these conversations, this outlet, will not always be available to him. I will not always be available to him.
In the previous threads I talked about how he said he would choose his friends over me. However, he has to realize the R he has with his friends is superficial in comparison to the R we had. Like I said earlier, he does not discuss anything in depth with them. I have hung out enough with them to know how their conversations go and what they talk about. It is fun, yes, but not necessarily meaningful when it comes to sharing one's life with other people.
Also, he talked about when we were separated for 8 months while I sold the house in Chicago and he had moved to Seattle. He told me even back then he was enjoying his life so much that he resented me even visiting. He doesn't realize that even then he was NEVER really alone. Yes he had freedom but he also got to share his day and his adventures with me on an almost daily basis. We talked over gmail chat often, we emailed often, we called each other almost every single night. I think he took that support structure for granted (and continues to take it for granted). I don't think he realizes that he has nobody else in his life that he can share these things with.
Can he find someone to do that with again? Yes. Will it be easy? No - especially not for him. He is a very private person who does not open up easily to others. It makes me a bit sad for him that he will have to now carry so much more about his life inside.
cal
this is pursuit and challenging his choices, and he'll simply defend those choices. Don't bother TELLING him or arguing with him about what he's going to miss.
He has to find this out for himself. Sorry but there are no "words" from you that will make the difference. Spend this energy on your 180s and GAL, and ACTIONS and TIME passing, will either get to him or fail.
But at least you'll be doing your work that much faster. Please, spare yourself this. No WAS has been "talked into" staying if they want out.
Set him free. In time the good memories and the loss of you, wiil surface in him and that's the only way.
Trust that you once had something of value. If you did, he'll remember.
And he'll miss it. And he'll work to get it back. But don't try talking him into this. It only cements their resolve and you want him to have doubts, NOT defending himself or making an effort to shut out your parental tone. He has an inner voice, don't shut it down with your parental voice with him. Make sense?
Give him space. He may find his way back to you.
Hmm not sure where I indicated that I said any of this to him. I didn't nor do I plan to. I plan to have lighthearted conversations with him when we do talk, like today. I think initiating contact once in a while isn't the worst thing.
I'm just hoping these conversations remind him what he's missing.
Nevermind, I see how I might have indicated that I said these things. I didn't. I stuck to simple conversation like I explained 5 posts back. I was just hoping it did all those things I listed afterwards.
[quote=calystra]Hey Kaffe, been keeping up on your sitch. In fact yours and a couple others are the ones that inspired my new lines of thinking.
One of the things I was trying to achieve with the conversation today is reminding him of the things he is giving up.
That's what I assumed you meant when you said this. I guess you mean by having these talks, you'll be contrasting with what he's about to have, w/o coming out and saying it? Okay.
Yes, I agree. As far as you know, he's going to suffer a LOSS when he leaves.
You'll have to trust that the good memories will resurface and I guess hope you are still available?
Went to the opera for the first time last night with my friends (Magic Flute, loved it) then out to dinner. Today I went golfing 18 holes with a meetup group. Tired, just relaxing the rest of tonight.
That sounds like a good day. I'm glad you were able to enjoy yourself.
Take another look at the word "
surrender". It's an amazing word, and it can set you free. In much the same way that forgiveness can.
Surrender is not "giving up" hope. It's "giving in" to circumstances that are beyond our control and accepting them as part of our reality.
Surrender opens up huge possibilities. Actually, surrendering is the bridge to detachment and forgiveness, as far as I'm concerned.
And that opens the door to be completely free to do as you please. I can give you a bit of a spoiler here. "What you please" will be different then, compared to what you think it is now. So best I can say is... don't worry about it.
I think it's something you will remember from the last time. It's just maybe difficult to find your way back there to that place, once again.
Jackpot!
Got an email from H today initiating talks about something not related to R, D or logistics! He saw that one of our favorite chain restaurants was opening in Seattle. When we moved out here it was something we really missed having and there were none west of the Mississippi at that time (Potbelly's). Looks like he's eager for that person he used to know and share things with. I'm not actually going to respond.
Tonight I was out with a guy friend at a party/ billiards tournament at a local brewpub. I met a lot of new people and had a good time, good conversation, good beer and good food. Afterwards we went to one of his local hangout dive bars and talked with some of the people he knows there and played foosball. He walked me back to my car and everything. It started to feel a little bit like a date sometimes but it wasn't. So weird.
Been a very busy activity-filled weekend for me.
Calystra - Try not to get too excited about reaching that baby step goal. I reached lots of them, got all excited and look where I am today. Sometimes, the things that mean so much to us, mean nothing to our partners. He could have been missing you at that moment, but it doesn't mean he was missing you the other 99% percent of the day.
I'm not trying to be negative, just trying to warn you against reading too much into his actions. Great to hear you are staying busy and having fun.
I'm happy about it for quite a few reasons. The main reason is that I did something that worked. One other reason is that he's starting to get to a place where he can think clearly and relax now. We couldn't make progress until he started reaching this point.
I'm cautiously optimistic.
Now to think about my next baby step goal and how to get there.
Nothing new for a couple of days now - no contact and I've been too tired to do much of anything. Plus no meetup groups have had much interesting going on and my friends are busy. My PMA is at a good level now though and I'm happier.
Regarding the email from Sunday... I'm second guessing my initial decision to not reply at all. I don't want to come across as cold or ignoring him since I know that is something that does NOT work. However, I'm not sure what to say back right now.
In those cases, I usually just wait a couple days now, then give a simple response. In your case it might be something like, "
Cool. I will have to check it out once it opens." Or something else that validates his excitement and anticipation.
You aren't "waiting on his conversation", but you aren't denying he contacted you (or worse), either. Something my W does to me all the time, by not responding.
Consider what could have happened had I ignored my W last Thursday. I may have missed an opportunity to have my D8 this weekend. I can't thank my friend enough for convincing me to respond. And had I jumped at the chance to talk to my W, could have ruined my whole evening.
I'd say you're within the statutes of limitations to still respond back without looking desperate for that time of interaction with your H, and still appearing sincere in acknowledging his existence and excitement. And then... be consistent with future dialogues...
Yeah that's basically what I just did. Just a quick 'that's awesome, i've missed that restaurant, hope you're doing ok'.
He's going camping this weekend with friends so he has to swing by and pick up stuff.
I would have liked to go camping.
Starting to line up my weekend...
Film festival Friday night. Saturday hiking. At some point karaoke in a Japanese-stype Karaoke place. Still need more, it's a long weekend!
H is going camping with his friends, picked up his stuff tonight. I made sure the house was pretty clean and I was in a good mood. Treated him nicely but our discussion didn't really consist more of hi, a couple questions and bye.
So frustrating.
Friday night I couldn't get tickets so I saw the Hangover 2 with a friend. Saturday morning I had a really bad sore throat so yesterday and today I've been too sick to do much of anything. Everyone wanted to go out tonight but I think I'm still too under-the-weather for that.
In this sitch, I saw that slight movement with H's mindset about a week ago but nothing since. I guess I wait and see and heal up in the meantime - so I can get back to my activities and a job search. Still haven't heard anything on that front either.
I'm starting to get impatient with the lack of movement in any direction on this sitch. We're nowhere closer to D so I should be happy but I feel like weeks are slipping by with no progress and there should be something I could be doing better to fix it.
My guess is that in H's mind, we are getting closer to D as he will likely try to ask me to post-date the "date of separation" to when he left in May and consider what's going on right now our 3 month cool down period.
Anyways, going dark is not the answer and I learned that last time. However, it's so hard to have conversations with him and I struggled with this last time as well. I initiated a light discussion last night of the "hi how are you" sort. For the first time since this sitch started, he actually asked how I was doing. I'm trying to use these as opportunities to show a good mood, give him little glimpses as to what is going on in my life, etc. Then I ended the conversation after a few minutes.
I guess I just sit back and wait. Last time I did this I got a good response - so I guess I wait to see if the test works this time too. If so, I'm not sure how often to have these conversations and how to work things like validation and words of affirmation into them more...
Also... Friday is our 11 year anniversary so I've been kind of dreading that day for a while now. I have a friend who wants me to go to Vegas but I just feel like I can't pick up and disappear like that. Maybe it would be a 180 though.... but it's a guy friend and I really don't want to give the wrong impression.
you could send a card, or even a text message saying
"Happy Anniversary...it's still worth remembering.."
IDK, just a thought.
My H sent a text on ours saying 'Although this is not where we thought we would have been X years ago today, I still remember' (the rest was me walking down the aisle but you could fill in something different of course).
It acknowledges the day but its not saying 'Happy Anniversary' since its not exactly a happy day being apart.
Initiated some contact with H today. Asked him how he was and hoped his knee felt better (he kinda hurt it over the weekend). He said thanks and that he was just really busy at work as usual. I was going to cut it off there but he responded that he basically wants to work out a custody arrangement for our car (my words not his). He's going to see if there is a way he can get some parking downtown covered by work, if not he'll probably just deal. I just used the opportunity to try and validate his feelings, give him some words of affirmation. I guess his head is still in the D game.
Going to pub trivia tonight. Just need a distraction. Hope it's not weird!
Sounds like a perfect evening Calystra, enjoy!
Got home to find the preliminary copy of all the D paperwork in an email from him.
(((((Calystra )))))))
Yes.. it does seem your husband is very determined to push thru the divorce, and I dont care what other people say but this is just the paper work. Please read my post to Denver this morning in regards to the END of the marriage, you still have time... Keep DB'ing....let him see the new and improved you, and if it doesn't work out Your the one that has and will benefit on all the work you have done on U.
Hope that makes sense........
Best wishes,
Cindy
Thanks sunny. I appreciate your encouragement. I do have time - in fact I have 3 months from the time the paperwork is filed (not when we were separated) so I will probably end up with almost 6 months. I think that is a fair amount of time.
I know a lot of people here don't always know what to say to me because I've been through this "successfully" before. Sure I know what worked last time which is a huge clue but this time isn't completely the same so any advice is always welcome and the support is greatly appreciated. I'm also finding that I'm struggling more this time with the entire thing.
However, I have seen some positive signs and I need to remember those, keep hoping and let him work through his stuff. Initiating contact (as I remember from last time) isn't a horrible thing to do as long as I'm being light and friendly and not pressing about the R. I have to walk a fine line between annoying him with too much contact but not going completely silent for days on end.
Tonight he found a great groupon deal for lasik which we both have wanted to get in the past. He said he was going to do it and we could just deduct it from his side of the finances in the D. I said well I want it too... so we just both got the deal and I guess that evens out. Then he asked for the car Saturday to go hiking. In the theme of the "what to do when you're stuck" post by the dbmod, I decided to try something totally different. I called him up. Now written methods of communication tend to be the best for him (and us...) but like I said, I was doing something different. I totally woke him up as he'd just gone to bed. I felt bad and apologized profusely but we chatted for 5 or 10 minutes about lasik and this weekend and etc. I was happy, light, friendly, treated him, worked in some words of affirmation, etc.
I will contact him tomorrow using one of the anniversary suggestions above. Probably 25's because the other one wouldn't come across right. Then he'll come to get the car at some point and ... I won't contact him for a couple days. We'll see what happens. I guess we'll have to contact again for him to drop off the car but I'll let him drive all of that.
Went to a board game meetup group tonight at a local coffee shop, it was a lot of fun! The pub trivia was also a good time last night. Don't have much planned for the weekend except Sunday watching the NBA Finals game with my friend.
(((((Calystra )))))))
Yes.. it does seem your husband is very determined to push thru the divorce, and I dont care what other people say but this is just the paper work. Please read my post to Denver this morning in regards to the END of the marriage, you still have time... Keep DB'ing....let him see the new and improved you, and if it doesn't work out Your the one that has and will benefit on all the work you have done on U.
Hope that makes sense........
Best wishes,
Cindy
Your posts were great Sunny. Sorry I have't had time to respond. Been dealing with NOT responding to my W's 35 telephone calls me tonight! LOL
Denver
Good morning calystra,
Hey...... great news on the Lasik surgery
I had that surgery done about 11 years ago.....It was the best thing I think Iv'e ever done for myself. Had been wearing glasses since second grade in school.close to legally blind and now.....omg Its a whole new world out there to see ....
I wish you the best.
I'm glad your looking at the positives in your stich..so often we focus on the negatives and the stand offs......
Time is on your side...isn't there a song like that? lalala
Yep anniversarys during a seperation are always rough...Memories, Happier memories, better times, yep I agree with 25.shes a wise woman.
Board games.god it's been years since Iv'e played any
always too busy or too tired, good GAL'ing
Keep up the good work...and keep the focus on you.
Cindy
Ohhh, and Denver Your welcome Just a little prespective on a long time marriage! And it looks like peeps have started a new thread for you, seeing yours locked up. You have alot of people on your side giving U support and " advise "
35 thirty-five 34+1 Phone calls OMG, she is so not done, I didnt think she was..........keep doing what works...remember in my post I talked about hubby going dark on me....giving me peace, space,, and time to think.....It was exactly what I needed
Wishing you the best
Cindy
Sent the text to H just now. I'm not expecting a response. Today isn't as bad as I thought it would be.
He came to pick up the car tonight and then wanted to talk about the D paperwork. I wasn't really prepared for that and I was out cleaning up the back yard when all this was going on.
However, I did want to talk to him so I said ok anyways. I listed out what I felt needed to change on the paperwork and he wrote it all down. I said I want to review this with a lawyer and he said ok and pressed me into a timeline on that so I have to try and do it next week.
Then I initiated an R talk. I said I wanted to understand more about what led to this because I needed to know for myself, to work on etc. I said it must have been very hard to do what he did and he must have been in so much pain to do it, etc. Then I asked what led to that? It took a while and rehashing some things over and over to get to it but it seems like it basically came down to me not giving him his LL or, what he felt, was any LL (besides my own). When that was combined with me quitting my job when I got pregnant and sitting around the house doing nothing then and after the miscarriage it became the 'straw that broke the camel's back' for him.
Anyways, I ended the discussion because he keeps insisting all his feelings for me is dead. There is nothing to rebuild because there are no feelings there. It doesn't matter how many excellent points I bring up or how great I argue. It doesn't matter that he knows his lack of communication led to this. It doesn't matter that he knows I would have worked on it if he had ever really said anything and not just acted happy. He understands that I didn't know anything was really that wrong because he faked it hoping that "acting like he loved me" would get him the reciprocal "love" in return.
He won't come back unless he thinks there are some feelings there to come back to and he can't feel those if he doesn't let himself... so I think I'm in a catch-22 this time around. I'm trying to show him a happy fun person but it's so hard when he's physically here (which is not often) - I either want to yell at him or cry. I was doing fine today until he pulled the "let's talk about paperwork" business and caught me off guard. I should have said no, please schedule a different time for that ...
And then I called him....
Argh. I should know better but I remember last time that some of our best breakthroughs came after R discussions. So maybe it's a mistake to have them and maybe not. One of our problems is communication of these kinds of things so maybe talking actually does help us in some backwards way?
Anyways, I told him that he makes me feel like I'm a bad person and I'm not. I'm a good person and I'm all weepy and crying and depressed these days because of the sitch but I can be that fun, loving person he used to know. I told him that he looks at all the negatives in our R and all the stuff that is missing and forgets about all the good things, taking them for granted. And we had a lot of good things. I also told him that it's unfair for him to color our entire past as negative now because we had some really good times where we were both happy and made it through some really difficult situations etc. He said he knows. I told him it's really depressing for him to do that to our entire history because then it means that I have been living with a person who has been lying to my face almost every day of my life for 11 years. And that makes it seem just so much worse. I think I kinda made him feel bad there so I apologized.
I told him that he says I never showed him love and he listed all the LL's off but MINE. I said, I may not be good at your LL but I tried and I showed you love in my LL all the time. He said he knew. Then I asked him what more could I do. He said nothing (of course). Then we said goodbye.
Not the best conversation, I know. But I guess it just really drives the point home for me that this is really about him being unhappy and I can't fix that. He can see all these things wrong with our R and M but they aren't necessarily there and they aren't necessarily what the problem is about. I think this problem has more to do with his individual happiness than our R and he's just pinning the blame there for now.
I told him that he says I never showed him love and he listed all the LL's off but MINE. I said, I may not be good at your LL but I tried and I showed you love in my LL all the time. He said he knew. Then I asked him what more could I do. He said nothing (of course). Then we said goodbye.
WHYYYYY????
You know better than to do this...NO MORE R TALK...NONE can be initiated by you. Ever...seriously...
When you argue, you force him to say it again, and to think it again and it CEMENTS the negatives in his mind...now they're REALLY solid...
if you think his reviews are way off, say "Wow, that's not how I recall it but I'm sorry you were hurt"
But if he says something legit, OWN IT without falling on your sword
like "If I had it to do over there's lots of things I'd do differently".
You have to show him BY ACTION that m to you in the future, would be different than it is now.
And you don't do that by arguing about how good a w you were when he says you were not.
Sorry.
Let him go, since he's gone anyhow. And let him discover the way one discovers FROM A DISTANCE that things were not so bad...
let him miss you (see MY timeline, not yours)
In his eyes you've had years to get this right
In your eyes things were good or if not, they were HIS issue.
If your memory is more accurate then that will be revealed IN TIME...and love will resurface.((( )))
I know I know. There was more to the conversation, we did talk about the things I did and I took responsibility for them. The comment you highlighted was something I said to him when I called him later. The conversation may not have helped the R but it did help me though and I feel a step closer to being able to let go at this point. I feel like I'm going to need to get through a forgiveness step again too and I'm not quite ready for that yet.
Since he had the car Friday and Saturday, I couldn't get out to do much so I just chilled at home and watched some movies, tv, played computer games and talked to friends. He returned the car this morning but I wasn't around and didn't see his text messages until the last one saying he was leaving. I guess an unintentional 180 there. We'll see how that works. My guess is that I get updated D paperwork tonight.
Today I'm going downtown to watch the NBA finals game with my friend at a sports bar. Should be fun.
forgiveness is a process and it takes time
wanting to do it so you can free yourself of anger and baggage is a good start.
Just don't expect it to happen overnight. It's like a two steps forward, one back kind of thing, or was for me.
Somewhere around here I wrote about a 4 day conference my h invited me and d's too, just before his planned departure.
At first I balked b/c it seemed weird and fakey and I'd have to hide my pain and anger and fears
Somehow I managed to shelve all that for FOUR days only...I thought I could do it. I got super good and NOT seeing any negatives in him and only saw positives or at worst, neutrals. Like his intelligent discussions with d's, rather than thinking he was "nerding out"...
anyhow, b/c of the girls and thinking it was the last time we'd have a chance to build good memories for them, I did it.
I let go of ALL the baggage I'd carried around (with every intention of resuming the anger and pain AFTER the 4 days...seriously...I am embarassed to admit thtat but it's how I was able to try the "experiment")
Thing is, h reacted positively to my changes and we all had a blast on the trip.
I mean HIS behavior changed after a day and a half of mine...
So I inadvertently started to see what forgiveness might look like, b/c I had temporarily done it...and that was a turning point for me.
It was a glimpse of what could be. And it begins with a change of attitude and then a big fat letting go of the past...
Good luck
Calystra - No sign of you for a while. That could be a good thing. Check in please.
I'm alive. Starting a new thread.