Please read and give me any feedback that you can. I know that this is long. I'm sorry.
Unfortunately, this update isn't nearly as positive that i'd like it to be.
After weeks of moving closer to me, W has pulled away some over the past 8 days or so.
W and I have continued daily contact and have still hung our almost every day.
There is a lot to write about, so I will try to hit the main events, conversations and statements as well as I can.
Friday April 1st - W and I went out drinking. Ended up in a long conversation a about R. Subject of OM came up and I wasn't able to hold back my contempt. I explained to my W how OM was a vulture and had preyed on her during a time when she was emotionally vulnerable. W stated that "I might agree with you in 20 years, but right now I don't." She ended up defending him by saying that she didn't have anything bad to say about him and that he is a really nice guy. She told me, "I hate that I have to feel that I have to defend OM with you, but I feel like I do."
My bad. I f'd up here. I NEED to stop engaging in conversation about OM. And I certainly need to stop criticizing him with W. I know that I am doing it bc I have this need to try and convince my W to agree with my feelings on the subject. This is not going to happen and I need to just accept it. This behavior only puts my W and OM on the same team, in opposition of me. Not conducive to my goals, and not in line with the 180's and life changes that I have worked so hard to achieve.
The conversation got heated, and I did have to walk away to cry a bit and get myself together. I ended up taking W to the house that she is renting. This was the first time that she has let me know where she lives. I walked her in and left.
We had a very good rest of the weekend. Took SS to Rockies game on Saturday night and to an Avalanche game on Sunday night. We had a great time.
Tuesday April 5th - SS has serious issues with school. He has an IEP and has been determined to have severe emotional disability. He is in his first year at his middle school and has struggled all year. The school had a meeting regarding some recent suspensions and I had told W that I would go with her if she wanted me to. Before our S, I was very involved with these meetings, but W stopped having me go when she left.
W decided that she wanted me to go to this one, which seems to indicate that she is welcoming my involvement in SS's life again. It was 2 1/2 hours of listening and fighting with school administrators about how they are not meeting SS's needs. This is another story, but the point is that I took the point bc I am a lawyer and have become familiar with the laws protecting children with IEPs. W is at her wits end with the schools and is under a tremendous amount of stress just trying to get her son an education.
After this meeting, W and I had to rush to our MC session. I told MC that I was feeling a bit down bc I don't have any security in the R with W. That I am trying to be patient and understanding, but that it has been wearing on me.
W listened to what I had to say and then went into how she is hesitant about what is going on with us. How she has not had time to process everything. That the past several weeks has been a whirlwind for her. How she doesn't feel that she has let herself really think about what is going on... that she has just let herself get caught up in spending time with me, which she has enjoyed. But that she has recently (past few days) been thinking that she isn't sure about anything and needs to process her feelings.
MC looked at me and said, 'you must feel like you don't know what you should do. Damned if you do, damned if you don't'. I agreed by saying that I feel like W is saying that I am smothering her, but that if I back off, then I will appear to be the same guy that she left.
In response, W said that she was not saying that I was smothering her. That she understands the 'damned if I do, damned if I don't' feeling. That what she is saying is that she just feels that she needs to take the time to process things, not that I need to do anything differently. MC even asked her, 'what do you want Denver to do?' W said that she didn't want me to do anything different.
Very confusing stuff.
In the course of all of this, the subject of the OM came up. W told MC that part of the hesitancy that she feels comes across when she asks herself 'why give Denver another chance?'. She said that she wonders if she is making the right decision to take a risk on me, and leave behind the chance with OM who treated her and SS so well. That sometimes, she feels torn.
But... that I feel like home to her... that she has always loved me... that she has invested 8 years in us and feels that she should give us a chance to work now that I have made so many substantial changes.
W also said that she feels like she is getting to know a completely different person (me) with all of my changes. And that she thinks that she is different too. That even though things were not good bw us before she left, that there was something that seemed to work with our R the way that it was. That she wonders if it will work now that we have both changed. (TALK ABOUT DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T!)
I was upset after the MC session and was very quiet on the drive home. I apologized for being quiet and W said that she understood that I was hurt by some of the things that were said.
When we got home, we talked for about 20 minutes before she got in her car and left. She reiterated that she does not feel like I am smothering her and that she just wants me to be myself and continue doing the things that I am doing... no changes as far as contact etc.
She brought up that she just isn't sure about moving back into the house at the end of May (when her lease is up). That she feels that maybe she is rushing things for both her and SS. That she had conversation with SS and that SS is also unsure about moving back in. That SS wants to move in bc he loves me and bc I have been in his life for a long time. But that he also likes the idea of it being just him and W. And also became close to OM and so doesn't understand why OM can't be in his life if I am.
We talked about the wall that W has up with me and how she is having a hard time letting it down. I told her that is why I suspected that she has a difficult time telling me that she loves me when I say it to her. She said that is right.
I told W that I was upset bc it seemed that this night was a step back for 'us'. She said that she didn't look at it that way. That she thought it was just part of the process.
Lastly, we talked about her moving back into the house. She said she just can't see herself moving back into the house. That it is different for her bc she moved out, I didn't. That she started a new life and it is just 'weird' for her. But, then she said that sometimes she can see herself moving back in. She has considered maybe we could sleep in different beds for a while... and she has considered that maybe she could get a cheaper place on a month to month lease for a while. I told her that I would accept whatever she decides and that I am going to be patient. I even asked her if she wanted to go look for apartment... that I would help her. She said 'no' that she is just leaving the option open for now.
The next 2 days, I cut back on contacting W... I let her initiate contact, which she did both days. We didn't see each other on Wednesday ... and only for a minute on Thursday as she dropped SS off at our house. She had a show on Thursday night. She did call me on her way home and then again when she was safely at her home.
Friday - W and I had planned for me to go with her to her show on this night. We met up at our house. Before heading up to her show (casino in the mountains) we met one of her friends at a bar and ate some dinner. Had a good time watching W's show. We stayed away from R talk on both the drive up and the drive home.
Saturday - Hung out with W while SS had a drum lesson. We went to have coffee while waiting. I was quiet bc I was stuck in thought about everything going on with our R. I am losing patience and it was getting to me while she and I were sitting drinking our coffee. W commented that I seemed quiet. I told her that I was just tired from being out so late the night before.
After SS's drum lesson, we went to eat. I snapped out of being bothered. We had a nice meal and then I took them home. W had the same show up in the mountains and wanted to take a nap before heading up. I went to run some personal errands.
I was had planned on hanging out with SS while W was at her show. W's friend was suppose to go up with her.
While I was running errands, W texted me to ask if the reason that I was quiet was bc she had not invited me to go up with her to her show again... but that she had not bc she knows that I don't like her friend. I responded that I would always like to go to her shows, but that was not why I was quiet. That I wasn't upset by the lack of the invite.
SS ended up being invited to spend the night at one of his friend's house... and W's friend backed out of going with her. W texted me and asked, "do you want to go?" ... I responded, "do you want me to go?" ... W said 'sure!' ... I then said, "just want to make sure that you want me to go. I feel paranoid about smothering you." W responded, 'pick you up at 9?' ... I said, 'sounds good'...
We got to the venue for her show early and had a drink at the bar. W said to me, "I thought that you wanted to stay the night up here one of these nights while I had these shows?' ... I had told her a couple of weeks ago that we could stay the night so that she didn't have to drive back and forth 3 nights in a row. .. W had considered it as a possibility at the time, but didn't bring it up, so neither did I. So I responded, 'I did, but you never brought it up. And besides, you won't even stay with me at our house' ... I kind of laughed when I said this. W said, 'I know. I won't stay in our house as a guest. I just won't. It seems weird. Like I am just some girl that you met.'.... I said, 'but you are not just some girl... you are my W... It is not weird for me at all... but I also understand how you feel.'
Then, somehow, we got into conversation about her moving back into the home. W told me again, but this time with a little more certainty, that she just doesn't think that she will be ready to move back into the home by the end of May. I again told her that was fine if that's what she decided.
No more R talk on Saturday night. W had her show and we drove home. Good conversation.
Today...
Had lunch with SS and W. Then took SS shopping for W's birthday while she got a massage. We then went to eat.
For some reason, I was again extremely bothered as we sat and ate. I got really quiet bc I was just thinking about everything that W has said over the past week.
After we ate, SS went outside the restaurant to do what 12 year old boys do... lol... W turned to me and said, 'you are acting weird'. I said, 'just quiet'. W then says, 'we have too much of this.' I said, 'what do you mean?' ... W: 'this was always part of our problem... we'd sit and just not say anything to one another... I don't want this to be my life' ...
I immediately realized that I had reverted into some bad behavior. I apologized. I then told W that I was just upset and that i was feeling impatient with things. We talked a little, but W was clear upset and maybe even a little irritated. She began to tear up at one point. This was clearly bc she is confused about how she feels and is feeling pressured about making some decision on our M/R. I apologized again ... told her that I know that my impatience was about me... that I know that this is not going to happen on my timeline ... She told me that I hadn't done anything wrong, but that she just isn't sure about things. I'm obviously paraphrasing a lot here.
I took W and SS back to where they are living and went home.
W called a little later to tell me that she wasn't mad. We spoke for about 90 minutes. W again talked about not being sure about what she is doing. That things have happened so fast. That she feels that she is rushing herself with her lease ending in May. That she is still processing. That she has gone from leaving me and being DONE, to dating somewhen when she had no plans to do so, to reconnecting with me, to ending her R with OM when the only reason for that was to see if we would be able to work things out.
There was lots of talk about OM and how he made her feel like she had always wanted me to make her feel. How she cut things off with him and thought that wouldn't be as hard on her as it has been. That it has been an 'adjustment' for her.
She reiterated her concern that she is taking a chance on me and walking away from the possibility that OM presents, or the possibility of meeting someone else completely. That she just isn't sure.
This conversation was very hurtful to me, so it is very much a blur. At one point, I told W that maybe we should just take some time apart and not talk so that she can figure things out... W kind of just ignored this suggestion.
At another point, I told W that maybe she should just reengage OM and figure out what she wants to do with that R before we consider anything else bw she and I. I told W that it seemed that she is reluctant to completely let go of her 'plan B' and that as long as that was there, it was going to be very hard for us to move forward. Again, W just kind of ignored the suggestion.
At the end of the conversation, I asked W if she wanted me to do anything differently, if she wanted me to stop calling and hanging out. She laughed a little and said 'no... that she had already told me that I am not doing anything wrong.' VERY F'ing Confusing.
Jumping back in the conversation a bit... W told me that sometimes she can't believe that my changes are for real and wonders what will happen after my 'challenge' of getting her back is gone... if I will go back to being the way that I was. I told her that this won't happen bc my changes have been for me. Bc I decided months ago that I don't want to live my life as I was living it before she left.
I asked her if she had watched MWD's video on the WAW that I sent her a month or so ago. She said that she had and that it seemed like it was almost dead on with what happened with us. But her question was how WAW's who give their H's a chance to show the significant changes that can happen do it.
W went on to say how she had to push her 'in love' feeling so far down in order to gain the strength to leave, that she doesn't know how to get those back. She wonders if WAW's who return to their M's get those feelings back or just accept that they are gone and then just end up being unhappy anyway... even though their H's have changed. W then admitted that she still does not feel 'in love' with me. That she is processing if she can find those feelings again.
I asked W what made her fall in love me 8 years ago. She told me that it was how I made her feel safe, my smile, and that I made her laugh. I then asked her if I no longer have a nice smile... jokingly.
I told W that I understood what she was saying. That I wasn't going to try and 'convince you' with words. That I thought that she just needed to let her walls down, but that I didn't want her coming back to me bc I 'convinced you'.
I told her that I will be fine however this turns out. That I still viewed her leaving me as the best thing that has ever happened... to me and for our M. That I now know how to love and be loved, know that I want to be married, and that I think that I know how to be a good H. That if it is not with her, that it will be with someone else. I reiterated that I wanted desparately for it to be with W, but that I will be okay either way.
W then said that she doesn't know how to take that... that in one way it sounds like I don't need her in my life. I said that wasn't the case, that I do need and want her in my life. But that I know what I want and am going to find it if she decides that things aren't going to work for us.
I told W that I believe that we have an opportunity that most couples do not... That someday we will be able to look back on what we have gone through and know that it made our M strong. That going through this will make our M stronger than we had ever hope that it would be.
This is when I asked w if she wanted me to stop contacting her and she laughed and said that she didn't want me to change anything.
W said, 'I think that we just need to keep having these conversations'.
So, the bottom line is W is struggling with letting OM go completely bc she is unsure about whether we can make our M work. She is not in love with me right now, and wonders if she can find the place where she put those feelings when she gathered the strength to move out. That W is now leaning towards not moving back into the house at the end of May, but instead thinking of finding another place on a month to month basis.
Bottom line is for me... I am frustrated and impatient. I am beginning to wonder if this is worth it. I am beginning to wonder if there is some 'life crisis' characteristics to my sitch. I am beginning to wonder if it is possible that a R can just get so damaged that it can never be repaired.
And I am confused. W spends time with me almost every day. She says that she enjoys talking to me and spending that time with me. That she fears losing me if she makes the wrong decision. That she loves me and always has... and that I feel like 'home' to her.
I just don't know friends... I am emotionally exhausted... I am sad ... and there is a part of me that feels like giving up. I have a huge trial where a man's life is at stake in 1 week and all I want to do is crawl into bed, cry and sleep.
Sorry that this post isn't the 'inspiration' that it has been in recent weeks... and I'm sorry that I am not going to go back and edit it...
BITS
Denver
Give me a minute to read this Denver. I am here
Denver,
I admit I only read about 1/2 thru. I'll read the rest later. Even I need a break from this "I'm not sure" stuff.
My advice is to go dark as much as you can. Let her wonder why you are not calling, not jumping to be with her. She has you walking on eggshells now and she is quite comfortable with it. You need to get off the eggshells. When she knows what she wants to do, she can call you. You don't need to go every day to hear this "I don't know" business.
Denver,
I admit I only read about 1/2 thru. I'll read the rest later. Even I need a break from this "I'm not sure" stuff.
My advice is to go dark as much as you can. Let her wonder why you are not calling, not jumping to be with her. She has you walking on eggshells now and she is quite comfortable with it. You need to get off the eggshells. When she knows what she wants to do, she can call you. You don't need to go every day to hear this "I don't know" business.
Tell me about Lotus. Very frustrating. I have considered your suggestion on backing off, but wonder if that is just the response that she expects from me... that it will only validate her concerns about me reverting back to previous behavior, ie, anger, silent treatment, withdrawal from R...
Yes... she has me on eggshells. No doubt.
BITS
Denver
OK, I finished it, and I still say the same thing. You are pursuing and she is putting distance between you two. Stop pursuing. She is likely to come after you. If she doesn't, well then, you have your answer.
No, I don't think she is trying to make you back off. I think she is trying to maintain the status quo -- she is invulnerable, and you are kissing her @$$. Perfect situation. Why change it?
But for you, it's not perfect. It [censored]. So you need to change it. You need to become the mystery man. You know, the lawyer you are trying to reach, but he is so wrapped up in a case you can't get him? You need to show her that you have a life. You've been telling her that. But you haven't been showing her that, and that is the danger pursuing. You've said your piece. Several times. So walk away. Get busy. Defend that guy. Let her feel the need for you.
I don't remember if you have broken the sexual drought with her yet. I'd say your goal should be to get back to lovemaking, not getting her to move in. Sex can break down fortress walls.
No, I don't think she is trying to make you back off. I think she is trying to maintain the status quo -- she is invulnerable, and you are kissing her @$$. Perfect situation. Why change it?
But for you, it's not perfect. It [censored]. So you need to change it. You need to become the mystery man. You know, the lawyer you are trying to reach, but he is so wrapped up in a case you can't get him? You need to show her that you have a life. You've been telling her that. But you haven't been showing her that, and that is the danger pursuing. You've said your piece. Several times. So walk away. Get busy. Defend that guy. Let her feel the need for you.
Well, I don't really have much of a choice. Unless I want to lose my career along with everything else. I know that you are right and have been considering this myself over the past several days.
I don't remember if you have broken the sexual drought with her yet. I'd say your goal should be to get back to lovemaking, not getting her to move in. Sex can break down fortress walls.
No. W won't stay at our house bc it is 'weird' and she doesn't want to stay in 'our house as a guest'.
But, she brought up staying at the hotel/casino last night. SS was going to be home early this morning, so the thought of staying was only in passing.
I think that W is trying to protect herself emotionally here with this issue. I agree, sex could be huge in breaking down the wall. I think that W knows this too. But, I think that she is afraid.
Thanks Lotus.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
I completely empathize with your sitch. Your W seems very torn.
She is liking the changes she sees in you, but is afraid they are not legit. I know how frustrating it is to have to hear that. I hear that from my H all the time.
IMO I think you are doing great. As hard as it is to be upbeat and positive, you are doing everything you can to validate her feelings and let her know that you understand.
As hard as it is, maybe you do need to back off a little bit and let her miss you. I know that you don't want her to think that you don't care, but maybe it will give her the opportunity to really miss you.
Denver,
I admit I only read about 1/2 thru. I'll read the rest later. Even I need a break from this "I'm not sure" stuff.
My advice is to go dark as much as you can. Let her wonder why you are not calling, not jumping to be with her. She has you walking on eggshells now and she is quite comfortable with it. You need to get off the eggshells. When she knows what she wants to do, she can call you. You don't need to go every day to hear this "I don't know" business.
Totally agree with this, Denver. ^^^
Not only is your "eggshell-walking" not working for YOU, but it's making you look needier than I know you want to appear.
Starsky
No, I don't think she is trying to make you back off. I think she is trying to maintain the status quo -- she is invulnerable, and you are kissing her @$$. Perfect situation. Why change it?
But for you, it's not perfect. It [censored]. So you need to change it. You need to become the mystery man. You know, the lawyer you are trying to reach, but he is so wrapped up in a case you can't get him? You need to show her that you have a life. You've been telling her that. But you haven't been showing her that, and that is the danger pursuing. You've said your piece. Several times. So walk away. Get busy. Defend that guy. Let her feel the need for you.
I don't remember if you have broken the sexual drought with her yet. I'd say your goal should be to get back to lovemaking, not getting her to move in. Sex can break down fortress walls.
DING DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!! 
1000% agree with this, Denver. You -- much like myself -- are a man of many WORDS. You need to cut back 90% on the words, and just work on your ACTIONS. You can't litigate your way out of this dilemma.
Starsky
I don't remember if you have broken the sexual drought with her yet. I'd say your goal should be to get back to lovemaking, not getting her to move in. Sex can break down fortress walls.
No. W won't stay at our house bc it is 'weird' and she doesn't want to stay in 'our house as a guest'.
But, she brought up staying at the hotel/casino last night. SS was going to be home early this morning, so the thought of staying was only in passing.
I think that W is trying to protect herself emotionally here with this issue.
BITS
Denver
Personally, I think she wants you to SEDUCE her, and she wants to see if "it" -- or at least a spark of "it" -- is still there. I think many of the other pieces of the puzzle have been coming together for her, but that maybe the "in love" feelings still aren't there (made worse by the fact that she kept in contact with OM for so long, and may still) and she doesn't want to commit to the marriage if she's going to feel platonically toward you.
I think you need to step up to the plate, and build some sexual tension between the two of you, Denver. Make your convos with her 90% less frequent, but the ones you DO have, you need some flirtation, and more importantly you need to ACT.
Put more succinctly:
you need to get your "mojo" back, man. 
Starsky
Denver, you know more than anyone what you need to do, you just need to DO IT! You mentioned it yourself several times, you are becoming impatient. That is completely understandable, but you need to find the strength to get the patience back.
Back to the basics here. GAL! You said you have seen her pretty much every day. That does not leave much time for YOU. Start doing some things for yourself. This will help get that patience back.
AVOID R talk. I don't think rehashing all of the problems is helping. Try to keep conversations enjoyable. When R talk does come up, go back to listening more and saying less. You have told her your feelings many times. She knows, saying them over and over only brings up negative feelings.
Absolutely drop the OM stuff. She needs to process that on her own. Again listen more, say less. You're not going to talk her out of her feelings. Don't be an enemy to them.
I suggest you go back and re-read your own threads. Look at what you were doing, what was working. Find that patience again.
BASICS!
180's
GAL
Avoid R talk
Validate
No pressure!
I know you have this in you. Do it Denver!
My dear friend, Denver:
Here are my observations/suggestions:
I agree with some of the other comments about the pursuing thing. I think you need to back up just a bit and not try to push so hard. Let her come to you. When she questions if your changes are the real deal, maybe you can say something like I know it's hard to believe but this is truly who I am now. Short and sweet but basically throwing it back at her to really weigh taking that risk or not. It will give her some serious food for thought at best because she will be thinking if indeed these changes are permanent like he says, I just may have alot to lose here. Know what I mean?
Also, in terms of her bringing up the OM. If I'm being too blunt, I apologize in advance. I always have all my BITS best interest at heart. She will always defend him because it's not about the relationship she had with him but it's how he made her feel. Having said that, that is somewhat an illusion because he knows what he was competing against. And he will do whatever it takes to sway her his way. It's his job (for lack of a better term) to make him look like the better choice. At the end of the day, just keep in mind that thru all the smoke and mirrors, he will never share the history like you both have, nor will he ever know her and your SS on the same level you do. You can't compete with that no matter how hard you try; no matter how hard you sway. And she will see that.
In terms of MC, it's great that she has finally conceeded to go. Just remember when you start any kind of C, there is no turning back in facing stuff you don't want to head on, being called out on stuff you don't want to hear. But, that is the only way you BOTH can get to the otherside. It's trying to regain that balance of self-growth for EACH of you. If your W was still not willing to go to MC and start experiencing some self-growth for HERself, then you do realize your M would not work. There would still be a major imbalance.
Lastly, I would suggest that the next time she wants to see you, tell her that you can't because something suddenly came up or whatever. I think she needs to miss you more. You have become a little too comfortable again. She knows that you are going to be there whenever she wants you to be there. So, mix it up a little bit; make the thrill of the chase a little more exciting for the both of you.
I think you are doing a great job. Keep it up and you still inspire us not matter what the ups and downs are with your sitch.
Sending HUGS!
I quickly grazed through your latest update.
And I am confused. W spends time with me almost every day. She says that she enjoys talking to me and spending that time with me. That she fears losing me if she makes the wrong decision. That she loves me and always has... and that I feel like 'home' to her.
Wow this is confusing. With the above you'd think your wife might just wanna run and come back to you. I could be talking crazy here. My wife does not say any of this. In-fact she does not even want to talk to me about anything other than stupid D details. In spite of that I am trying not to lose hope. Denver, i think you are close to that proverbial hill in your sitch. Keep pushing yourself man. You will get there. Keep the faith.
Hi Denver,
It's the toughest thing for a man to let a woman get all of her words out that have to do with feelings and every little thought. While you do have to LISTEN, and you have--you don't have to put so much weight on every word. I know that's really hard when you are really listening. And more conversations will still drain you a bit.
But--you did some good things and actually, this talk was a baby step.
1) You made her feel safe to talk and get out her feelings.
2) You actually listened.
3) You made her feel safe to keep doing the same and let her be ambivalent.
What you want to do most in judging your progress is to WATCH HER ACTIONS.
She's initiating spending time with you. That's incredibly major.
I know this doesn't FEEL like a bonus weekend. But it was. This is NOT the point where you back off and she misses you more. This is the point where you stay consistent. Consistently the new old you that she trusts. No knee-jerk pull back.
Hi Denver,
It's the toughest thing for a man to let a woman get all of her words out that have to do with feelings and every little thought. While you do have to LISTEN, and you have--you don't have to put so much weight on every word.
Classic Mars- and Venus-speak.
Starsky
Denver, you know more than anyone what you need to do, you just need to DO IT! You mentioned it yourself several times, you are becoming impatient. That is completely understandable, but you need to find the strength to get the patience back.
CS - Thank you man. You are giving me the same advice that I would be giving to you or anyone else under the same circumstances. It is sometimes harder to see the forest from the trees when dealing with my own situation.
I have been very diligent and focused with being patient for almost 5 months now. The past week, however, has really tested my resolve and strength to continue being patient. I have slipped a bit 3 or 4 times with my W and acted the opposite of what I think that she needs now.
You are right. I need to find the strength and the focus to do what has worked for me... patience and time.
Absolutely drop the OM stuff. She needs to process that on her own. Again listen more, say less. You're not going to talk her out of her feelings. Don't be an enemy to them.
Again, you are right. And I realized this on April 1 when I kind of went off on her about him. I haven't brought it up since, but she has. I have just listened and not responded a whole lot. But it is the hurt that her words about OM have left me with that has caused me to lose patience.
No one said this was going to be easy.
Thanks again man.
BITS
Denver
DG, Gypsy, Karma - Thanks for your words of support. I am down, but not out. I'm going to refocus and move forward.
BITS
Denver
Hi Denver,
It's the toughest thing for a man to let a woman get all of her words out that have to do with feelings and every little thought. While you do have to LISTEN, and you have--you don't have to put so much weight on every word. I know that's really hard when you are really listening. And more conversations will still drain you a bit.
But--you did some good things and actually, this talk was a baby step.
1) You made her feel safe to talk and get out her feelings.
2) You actually listened.
3) You made her feel safe to keep doing the same and let her be ambivalent.
What you want to do most in judging your progress is to WATCH HER ACTIONS.
She's initiating spending time with you. That's incredibly major.
I know this doesn't FEEL like a bonus weekend. But it was. This is NOT the point where you back off and she misses you more. This is the point where you stay consistent. Consistently the new old you that she trusts. No knee-jerk pull back.
Thanks DB. W says that she thinks that we need to continue to have these conversations. But god it IS sooo draining bc some of the words sting a lot. I know that I need to watch her actions and not focus so much on her words. But I can't help but feel that she is losing some internal struggle within herself about working on M. At the same time, I have a hard time envisioning her walking away unless I revert to old behaviors.
I've listened to both you and Lotus. While had already considered what Lotus is telling me now, I think that my best course of action is to continue being consistent and refocus myself on being patient.
While I do worry that I am being too available to my W and am pursuing her too strongly right now, I worry more that pulling away to see if she will draw closer will only validate her concerns that I have not truly changed and will eventually revert back to old behaviors. That interpretation of my actions by her would be devastating to my situation. I can't risk that right now and I think that it is a strategy that I can save for a later time IF things take more of a turn for the worse.
Thanks again DB!
BITS
Denver
D10.
From reading your long post some things stood out to me.
Is your W still in contact with OM?
Sounds as if your W is feeling what my W did when we started to date again.
They are very confused.
You need to pull back and regroup.
Start acting more mysterious around her.
Women like excitement and mystery.
Sounds to me as if she isn't attracted to out right now, you're classified as a friend.
Not a bad thing, but you want more right now.
so what's up with OM?
Denver -
Print this up:
Stop talking about the F-ing OM.
along those lines:
Stop F-ing talking about the OM.
Yes... she has me on eggshells. No doubt.
Really?
Re-read your own post about the last couple of days and point out when things started sliding south.
I told W that I believe that we have an opportunity that most couples do not... That someday we will be able to look back on what we have gone through and know that it made our M strong. That going through this will make our M stronger than we had ever hope that it would be.
That is beautiful...
and pressuring.
You're telling her what her future is going to be like, no choice on her part.
oh, AND:
I told W that I understood what she was saying. That I wasn't going to try and 'convince you' with words.
Conflicting.
Looking back Denver, you're success...came from enjoying the moments with her. Those moments build up over time.
Stop rushing it, and stop trying to convince her.
DB is right there is alot of good. Alot of it.
You need to assuage your own insecurities, not have her do it. Not be needy.
Take comfort in her actions, instead of needing her to re-confirm them.
At another point, I told W that maybe she should just reengage OM and figure out what she wants to do with that R before we consider anything else bw she and I.
I do not believe I have ever called anyone stupid here before.
Look Denver if it isn't advice you'd give, why take it yourself?
I immediately realized that I had reverted into some bad behavior. I apologized. I then told W that I was just upset and that i was feeling impatient with things. We talked a little, but W was clear upset and maybe even a little irritated.
The good? You recognized it and apologized for it.
The bad? She saw it, and your new Denver isn't as shiny. Willing to bet that alot of what followed was from her fear you're tricking her.
Consistency of change, until it is no longer change is your goal, because slip ups make them doubt you.
The OM and your wife.
As soon as you get used to the following idea the better off I think you will be.
Your wife and the OM had a relationship.
They had a relationship.
And when relationships die, it takes time to process them.
Anyone who hurries that up especially someone with a vested interest is poking a bear.
You have a vested interest. So you're trying to hurry her process along, instead of as hard as it is to do...comfort her, be there, you just want her to jump feet first into you and hurry the hell up.
So..lets say, you and your wife divorce, and you're all hurt and in pain, and lets say there is woman, who is glad it is over because she wants you to committ to her, be more than friends and can't understand why you still have feelings for your wife? Why can't you just get over her already?
How long you going to put up with her.
Funny thing is, even now, if my OM was hanging off a cliff? I might kick some dirt in his face before he fell.
But I am grateful, yeah that's f-ed up, he was there for her when I wasn't, and I am willing to bet Denver that besides that one point, you and I have similar feelings about the OM.
This isn't easy, it's never going to become easy. Easy is what got you here, you forget this path is hard, and your feet become bloody ribbons on the rocks.
I am beginning to wonder if it is possible that a R can just get so damaged that it can never be repaired.
Yup...
And I am confused. W spends time with me almost every day. She says that she enjoys talking to me and spending that time with me.
Doesn't seem like your's falls into that category though.
D,
It's perfectly natural for you to make the OM seem like a scumbag. But remember, your W was the one who made the decision to fall for it. She recognizes it was her choice and feels like the OM is a "victim" in all this.
More important than her looking at the OM like a d*ck is the fact that she should be more concerned about the pain she caused YOU. She has to express REMORSE for her actions. It seems like she's showing REGRET which is like saying, "hey I'm sorry I hurt you only because I was caught".
Remorse is when she's willing to alleviate your fears and insecurities and doesn't casually dismiss them. You were the hurt party and had to swallow alot of her sh*t when she was going out with the OM. I know the feeling. But in order for your M to truly heal, she has to understand, really understand from your POV how much you were hurt and empathize with you.
Have the two of you discussed MC or at the very least, reading about As and its affect on both of you?
"do you want to go?" ... I responded, "do you want me to go?" ... W said 'sure!' ... I then said, "just want to make sure that you want me to go. I feel paranoid about smothering you."
Had to pull this part out. Try to be more decisive. This kind of wishy-washy temperature taking kills attraction. She wouldn't ask you if she didnt want you to. Take it at face value and just accept the invitation. You don't smother a woman by just being with her, you smother her with emotional dependency, constantly checking her temperature, and general passive agressiveness/approval seeking behavior.
"do you want to go?" ... I responded, "do you want me to go?" ... W said 'sure!' ... I then said, "just want to make sure that you want me to go. I feel paranoid about smothering you."
Had to pull this part out. Try to be more decisive. This kind of wishy-washy temperature taking kills attraction. She wouldn't ask you if she didnt want you to. Take it at face value and just accept the invitation. You don't smother a woman by just being with her, you smother her with emotional dependency, constantly checking her temperature, and general passive agressiveness/approval seeking behavior.
Thanks Spellfire. You are absolutely correct. That's why I included that part of that conversation. I knew that I had messed up as soon as I had the conversation. That is how my entire week has gone and I KNOW that I am slipping in the confident and decisive part of things. It is so unlike me. I think that was my point with my last post. The insecurity of the R is beginning to really wear on me. I know that I shouldn't expect to be made to feel secure by W right now, but that doesn't make it any easier.
Thanks for checking in. I appreciate it.
BITS
Denver
Denver, I am far from any expert on this but after reading your whole post it seems you are giving her way too much of what she wants. She needs to feel your absence and lack of contact. It seems the DB principles would work well here to go more dark and let her need you. To want you once you are more gone. Now she has contact with you all she wants which is not good for her to feel the distance and need.
Just my 2 pennies.
gr8 - W is not in contact with OM right now. My W is a professional vocalist with an entertainment company and a few different bands. OM is a horn player whom she works with on occasion. They were both at a recording session about a week and a half ago, and OM apparently was trying to avoid W. W felt badly about the situation, said that she felt horrible about hurting OM.
I agree. W is confused right now.
Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it.
Denver
It's perfectly natural for you to make the OM seem like a scumbag. But remember, your W was the one who made the decision to fall for it. She recognizes it was her choice and feels like the OM is a "victim" in all this.
More important than her looking at the OM like a d*ck is the fact that she should be more concerned about the pain she caused YOU. She has to express REMORSE for her actions. It seems like she's showing REGRET which is like saying, "hey I'm sorry I hurt you only because I was caught".
In some ways you are correct. My W only feels regret bc she recognizes that she was 'careless' by starting to date while we were separated. She feels badly that she has hurt me, OM and SS by her decision that she acknowledges that wasn't well thought out.
W wasn't caught. W told me about 'dating' OM when we first began to talk about the possibility of reconciling. She didn't have to tell me and I probably would have never known. In some ways, I wish that she had chosen not to.
Remorse is when she's willing to alleviate your fears and insecurities and doesn't casually dismiss them. You were the hurt party and had to swallow alot of her sh*t when she was going out with the OM. I know the feeling. But in order for your M to truly heal, she has to understand, really understand from your POV how much you were hurt and empathize with you.
Have the two of you discussed MC or at the very least, reading about As and its affect on both of you?
We have been to 2 MC sessions so far. After hearing what W had to say at last session, MC suggested that we hold off on scheduling another until W is ready. W agreed, but told me later that she didn't want to go this week anyway bc it is her birthday... and next week I will be out of town for a trial. I hope that she is ready to go again after next week. We shall see.
Remorse? See above. W isn't remorseful for her decision. At least not in the way that you are talking about. To her credit though, she has been sensitive to my feelings about it. When she had to see OM at a recording session about a week and a half ago, she texted me that he was there, what he was doing while he was there, and when he left. She later texted me that I could ask 2 of her other co-workers about what she did while she was there if I had any doubt that I trusted her. I told her that I didn't need to do that and that I did trust her. But I did appreciate that she is thinking about my feelings and what I may be going through.
But she doesn't see her choice to date during S as an A. That isn't going to happen anytime soon. Quite frankly, I can deal with that part. It is not being able to feel secure in our R and knowing that OM is just in the background waiting that is killing me.
Stop talking about the F-ing OM.
along those lines:
Stop F-ing talking about the OM.
I KNOW. I haven't brought it up since last Friday (april 1). W has brought him up the other times. I have only been listening to what she has to say and not responding to anything about OM. I have literally been biting my lip.
Yes... she has me on eggshells. No doubt.
Really?
Re-read your own post about the last couple of days and point out when things started sliding south.
When I started to show my wear and tear... my impatience and insecurity with the sitch. Right.
I told W that I believe that we have an opportunity that most couples do not... That someday we will be able to look back on what we have gone through and know that it made our M strong. That going through this will make our M stronger than we had ever hope that it would be.
That is beautiful...
and pressuring.
You're telling her what her future is going to be like, no choice on her part.
I know that it is, but it really seems that W is asking for, almost demanding, reassurance and validation as to why she should give our M another chance. Maybe not. Maybe you are right. F I don't know. And your statement below is correct too...
I told her that I wasn't going to try and convince her with words... and I tried to do just that.
It was a beautiful sentiment though...
I told W that I understood what she was saying. That I wasn't going to try and 'convince you' with words.
Conflicting.
Looking back Denver, you're success...came from enjoying the moments with her. Those moments build up over time.
Stop rushing it, and stop trying to convince her.
DB is right there is alot of good. Alot of it.
You need to assuage your own insecurities, not have her do it. Not be needy.
Take comfort in her actions, instead of needing her to re-confirm them.
That is exactly it. I am asking her for comfort and affirmation that everything is still moving forward as I would like it to. I know this. I knew it at the moments where I made the mistakes. I haven't been able to stop myself for the past week.
I think that maybe I need to try and post more here to get some of my emotions out.
And i am trying to rush it. When all of this went down in November, I set a goal of fixing M and getting W to move back into the home at the end of her 6 month lease. At that time, it looked like I would never meet that goal. But over the past 6 weeks, it started to look more and more like I'd make it just under the wire. NOW, it doesn't. And that is disappointing.
Should it be? No, probably not. It is just an artificial deadline. I need to recognize that and look at long term goals. Ok. Thanks Jack.
At another point, I told W that maybe she should just reengage OM and figure out what she wants to do with that R before we consider anything else bw she and I.
I do not believe I have ever called anyone stupid here before.
Look Denver if it isn't advice you'd give, why take it yourself?
Damn straight I deserve to be called stupid for that. Another moment where my mind was telling my mouth to shut the f*&k up ... it was like a car crash... everything moving in slow motion but I couldn't respond to what was coming out of my mouth fast enough.
I think that I dodged the bullet there though. I hope.
The OM and your wife.
As soon as you get used to the following idea the better off I think you will be.
Your wife and the OM had a relationship.
They had a relationship.
And when relationships die, it takes time to process them.
Anyone who hurries that up especially someone with a vested interest is poking a bear.
You have a vested interest. So you're trying to hurry her process along, instead of as hard as it is to do...comfort her, be there, you just want her to jump feet first into you and hurry the hell up.
So..lets say, you and your wife divorce, and you're all hurt and in pain, and lets say there is woman, who is glad it is over because she wants you to committ to her, be more than friends and can't understand why you still have feelings for your wife? Why can't you just get over her already?
How long you going to put up with her.
Not long. You are right... again.
This part...
"Your wife and the OM had a relationship.
They had a relationship.
And when relationships die, it takes time to process them.
Anyone who hurries that up especially someone with a vested interest is poking a bear."
Hurts like a mutherf*%cker... Sorry for the language DB. But that is the best way to express it.
I simply CANNOT understand and accept how W moved into another R so quickly after leaving me...
sometimes...
but other times... I do understand ... bc I know W's own insecurities and the hurt that I caused her.
How can I voice empathy for her feelings on this though?? Do I just pretend that I don't hate what has happened?? Sh!t should I invite the guy to dinner or send him here to these boards to get support??
Silence on the subject is the best that I can muster.
Funny thing is, even now, if my OM was hanging off a cliff? I might kick some dirt in his face before he fell.
That isn't all I would do Jack. But he would fall. You had me laughing out loud with this though. Thanks.
But I am grateful, yeah that's f-ed up, he was there for her when I wasn't, and I am willing to bet Denver that besides that one point, you and I have similar feelings about the OM.
This isn't easy, it's never going to become easy. Easy is what got you here, you forget this path is hard, and your feet become bloody ribbons on the rocks.
Why are you grateful that he was there for your W when you weren't Jack. I really want to understand this point of view. Bc you are exactly right when you say that we have similar feelings about the OM except for that one. I want to understand this.
I thought that I was past the shards of rock that would bloody my feet... I was wrong.
I am beginning to wonder if it is possible that a R can just get so damaged that it can never be repaired.
Yup...
And I am confused. W spends time with me almost every day. She says that she enjoys talking to me and spending that time with me.
Doesn't seem like your's falls into that category though.
God I hope that you are right Jack.
As always, thanks Jack.
Denver
Denver, I wish I had something to add beside my support and prayers.
You've gotten very good advice.
Put it in to practice with patience. Difficult I know, but you've done this all before.
could you come over to my thread and give me advice dmod. thanks
I simply CANNOT understand and accept how W moved into another R so quickly after leaving me...
I can, and so can you if you're willing to turn it around.
If your relationship had been everything you both vowed it would be, I'd have a hard time with it too.
Mine wasn't and hadn't been for a long while.
Neither was yours.
It had been 'dead' for awhile right?
Grateful...
For similar reasons above. Oh do not get me wrong. I...hate him.
I reserve that for a few people.
But, my actions...inactions, childish demands, selfishness...yadda yadda yadda.
My wife deserved better. She didn't deserve me contributing to her worsening self worth image. He built her up, helped her realize she was of worth and value...most certainly to him. He was around at one of my wife's lowest points.
Did the affair cause problems of self worth in her and morality...certainly, but he was giving her (ha-ha...inuendo) what she needed, and craved.
I wasn't there, I wasn't capable of it, and really...DBing would have been a trick at the time and faded with time. He did the crap I forgot to do, stopped doing. He reminded me of everything I SHOULD have been doing.
Helll...his memory still does.
Gratfeul.
He is still a slime suckking scumbag.
I simply CANNOT understand and accept how W moved into another R so quickly after leaving me...
I can, and so can you if you're willing to turn it around.
If your relationship had been everything you both vowed it would be, I'd have a hard time with it too.
Mine wasn't and hadn't been for a long while.
Neither was yours.
It had been 'dead' for awhile right?
Grateful...
For similar reasons above. Oh do not get me wrong. I...hate him.
I reserve that for a few people.
But, my actions...inactions, childish demands, selfishness...yadda yadda yadda.
My wife deserved better. She didn't deserve me contributing to her worsening self worth image. He built her up, helped her realize she was of worth and value...most certainly to him. He was around at one of my wife's lowest points.
Did the affair cause problems of self worth in her and morality...certainly, but he was giving her (ha-ha...inuendo) what she needed, and craved.
I wasn't there, I wasn't capable of it, and really...DBing would have been a trick at the time and faded with time. He did the crap I forgot to do, stopped doing. He reminded me of everything I SHOULD have been doing.
Helll...his memory still does.
Gratfeul.
He is still a slime suckking scumbag.
Wow Jack...
That is so similar to my situation... what I did and didn't do for my W... what OM brought to her life. How my W deserved better... I was only tearing her down... her confidence, her self worth. OM did the opposite.
Can I be grateful to OM for reminding me of everything I should do, or be, for W? I don't know. What you have said will make me think though. I know that his existence has reminded me of those things... but be grateful? Maybe.
Tough to be grateful and f'ing hate someone at the same time though...
Tough to be grateful and f'ing hate someone at the same time though...
We are human, we are walking contradictions.
Point taken Starsky. I think that there is some truth to that.
Thanks.
Denver
Denver,
--You do need to own your part in the A. She had an A, because you were not a good H. You were not meeting her needs. You created a situation that allowed her to become vulnerable to that sort of thing. While you didn't force her to get into the bed, you did hold the door wide open for her.
You need to recognize this and figure out a way to make sure that YOU don't do that again.
And you need to forgive both her and yourself for it. If you don't, I can guarantee that the reconciliation, won't last very long...
Denver, deal with your issues. Deal with your feelings. Decide, now that the possibility really exists, if you CAN do this.
I posted this to you, two threads ago...
Go read your answer to me...
It was full of I knows, just like your responses to others today have been...
So, can you do this?
Update...
I think that I should follow last night's update with this even though it is short...
W texted me this morning some feelings that she has been having towards SS's school and their treatment of him. I responded by telling her that we could talk about it later when she and I both had time.
SS is suspended from school today. I went over to the place that they are staying and picked him up for some lunch. We went and picked out birthday cards for W and then had some lunch. W's birthday is tomorrow.
W called a little while after I dropped SS off. We talked about her thoughts on the school situation. She asked me if I would call the vice principal and talk to him since I was not there for the meeting on Friday when SS got into trouble.
W and I have exchanged a few more text messages since.
No talk about our conversation last night. I don't expect that there will be for a while.
Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement and advice after I posted last night. I'm not going to alter my strategy or behavior much going forward. I'm just going to refocus on the things that have gotten me to this point, ie, patience and being the better man...
BITS
Denver
Ahhhh, the old pull back. It is part of the WAW's playbook.
Dont really know what to tell you Denver. The only thing I am sure of is the PATIENCE thing but let me tell you, when my W came back I was as patient as a monk however, this worked against me in my sitch because she was seeing the OM, unbeknowst to me.
I would have been patient for a long time but that was just buying her time. I dont know for what but she kept sleeping with him while not having to deal with me. I think she would have been happy doing this for a long time. She had the excitement of the OM and the security and money from me.
The integrity or lack there of part she seemed to be Ok with.
I could have been patient a very long time as long as there were positive steps.
See if she will sleep with you eventually and see if there is love in her eyes and in her hug. You know what to look for I think Now.
My W, could not pull that off with me. I did not feel the love at all.
All the best Denver.
9
PS, remeber John Elway didnt win the Superbowl very quickly but it seemed sweet when he finally did.
Denver,
--You do need to own your part in the A. She had an A, because you were not a good H. You were not meeting her needs. You created a situation that allowed her to become vulnerable to that sort of thing. While you didn't force her to get into the bed, you did hold the door wide open for her.
You need to recognize this and figure out a way to make sure that YOU don't do that again.
And you need to forgive both her and yourself for it. If you don't, I can guarantee that the reconciliation, won't last very long...
Denver, deal with your issues. Deal with your feelings. Decide, now that the possibility really exists, if you CAN do this.
I posted this to you, two threads ago...
Go read your answer to me...
It was full of I knows, just like your responses to others today have been...
So, can you do this?
I do Cat. I think that this is what I have been doing ... dealing with my issues and my feelings.
Have I forgiven my W? I can... I think that I have... but that doesn't mean that I agree with her opinion of OM.
But I do know that I should not voice my opinion of OM to my W. I made a mistake. It won't happen again.
Do I own my part in the A... absolutely. This is the ONLY reason that I am able to forgive my W for it.
My problem is not with an inability to forgive, I don't think... Nor is it with my inability to own my part in it.
My problem is with my W's opinion of OM and her inability to see things my way!! This is making me insecure, and causing me to ask for reassurance and validation...
LOL... not funny, I know. But I am recognizing the error of my thinking here.
BAM! My own 2x4 ... thank you very much.
Thanks Cat.
Denver
Sorry Nine... going to have to pretend that I didn't just read your post! LOL!!
In all seriousness though, I honestly don't believe that my W is capable of doing what you just described. I know that many a husband has probably said the same thing... I know that. But, at the same time, my W has expressed enough regret over he decisions during our S, and has expressed enough understanding of my feelings, that I feel comfortable in trusting her.
Like I've said, my W did not have to tell me about her R with OM before deciding to work on our M with me. In fact, she had friends tell her NOT to tell me about it. I would have never known about it had she made this choice. But she did tell me... because she wanted to be honest with me... bc she could not live with that lie. That is my W as I know her.
Thanks for your support man.
BITS
Denver
Update...
I think that I should follow last night's update with this even though it is short...
W texted me this morning some feelings that she has been having towards SS's school and their treatment of him. I responded by telling her that we could talk about it later when she and I both had time.
SS is suspended from school today. I went over to the place that they are staying and picked him up for some lunch. We went and picked out birthday cards for W and then had some lunch. W's birthday is tomorrow.
W called a little while after I dropped SS off. We talked about her thoughts on the school situation. She asked me if I would call the vice principal and talk to him since I was not there for the meeting on Friday when SS got into trouble.
W and I have exchanged a few more text messages since.
No talk about our conversation last night. I don't expect that there will be for a while.
Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement and advice after I posted last night. I'm not going to alter my strategy or behavior much going forward. I'm just going to refocus on the things that have gotten me to this point, ie, patience and being the better man...
BITS
Denver
Have I forgiven my W? I can... I think that I have...
I see you trying to excuse it...by continuing to place the blame on him and her vulnerable state.
Stop making excuses for her. Excuses, make it easier to not feel the anger that we all have when we are betrayed.
The bottom line, it happened.
Forgive that. Not the reason you think she did it.
This advice was given to me once about a situation I encountered and it has stuck with me...
"IF he is truely sorry it will show, and unless you are an ice queen, you'll forgive him..."
I didn't need to go through all of the bull, although I tried to, to find that forgivness, I just looked to see through actions, not words, if it was there.
It really can be that simple.
My problem is with my W's opinion of OM and her inability to see things my way!! This is making me insecure, and causing me to ask for reassurance and validation...
LOL... not funny, I know. But I am recognizing the error of my thinking here.
BAM! My own 2x4 ... thank you very much.
You know, you being a lawyer, makes this a difficult concept for you. However, the truth really is, that you guys are not always going to agree on anything. It isn't possible unless you share a brain.
Have I forgiven my W? I can... I think that I have...
I see you trying to excuse it...by continuing to place the blame on him and her vulnerable state.
Stop making excuses for her. Excuses, make it easier to not feel the anger that we all have when we are betrayed.
The bottom line, it happened.
Forgive that. Not the reason you think she did it.
You just busted me. Thanks. You are right. I'm willing and able to forgive her IF I can justify it.
The fact that she doesn't agree with my opinion of OM, ie, that he is a vulture who preyed on her while she was in a vulnerable state of mind, is making it hard for me to complete the process of forgiveness... if that makes sense.
I need to forgive the fact that it happened... the 'why' does not matter.
LOL... on the lawyer snub!
Thanks Cat.
Denver
Denver,
I know you are frustrated, and rightly so, but I still think your are in a very good place right now with your W. I think you should just keep doing what you are doing. It is working. The only thing that is not working is being impatient. You feel like you are so close and it should just happen right now.
One thing I noticed, and it is just my observation, is that once you and your W started talking about R and moving forward, I think you took that as an open door to talk about your R anytime you wanted to. I think sometimes it is ok, but like somebody else has said, listening is probably more important than talking right now. And I don't think I would hardly ever talk about or bring up the OM. you have nothing to gain by this and everything to lose.
You need to imagine, as hard as this is, that you have a new R with your W, and her OM is nothing more than a former boyfriend that you care nothing about. I know when you first met your W, you did not talk about all her former boyfriends and bow bad they were for her. So don't do it now. This is your chance at a new R and M with your W.
Be patient. You are doing great and have made HUGE gains. Just reread some of your older posts and you can't help but see how far you have come.
Thanks Islander. This is why I love this board so much. It is so difficult for us to see so many things in our own situations that are so obvious to us in others' situations. When I post here, I get nuggets of gold from almost everyone who responds.
"The only thing that is not working is being impatient."
"listening is probably more important than talking right now."
"you have a new R with your W, and her OM is nothing more than a former boyfriend that you care nothing about"
ALL nuggets of gold Islander. Thanks.
BITS
Denver
Hi Denver,
It's the toughest thing for a man to let a woman get all of her words out that have to do with feelings and every little thought. While you do have to LISTEN, and you have--you don't have to put so much weight on every word.
Classic Mars- and Venus-speak.
Starsky
What do you mean classic Mars- and Venus- speak???
I'm curious.
Update...
I think that I should follow last night's update with this even though it is short...
W texted me this morning some feelings that she has been having towards SS's school and their treatment of him. I responded by telling her that we could talk about it later when she and I both had time.
SS is suspended from school today. I went over to the place that they are staying and picked him up for some lunch. We went and picked out birthday cards for W and then had some lunch. W's birthday is tomorrow.
W called a little while after I dropped SS off. We talked about her thoughts on the school situation. She asked me if I would call the vice principal and talk to him since I was not there for the meeting on Friday when SS got into trouble.
W and I have exchanged a few more text messages since.
No talk about our conversation last night. I don't expect that there will be for a while.
Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement and advice after I posted last night. I'm not going to alter my strategy or behavior much going forward. I'm just going to refocus on the things that have gotten me to this point, ie, patience and being the better man...
BITS
Denver
W texted me tonight from her band rehearsal.... Just small talk.
I may disappear for the most part over the next 2 weeks. I have a trial that is out of town so I'm just not going to have much time to post. Just don't want anyone to worry.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
Men and women communicate differently. Men usually need few words, especially words that relate to emotions. Women need lots of words more often that not. To say the exact same thing.
The problem lies in the translations. LOL
Read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. You will understand then.
Denver
I have been sitting back so you will have a chance to let some of this great advice sink in.
A few observations and questions.
First I see your W still playing the victim.
Ok you did some things you're not proud of and you have looked at WHAT you did and more importantly WHY.
When we gain this awareness we start by feeling horrible and guilty about our choices and our behavior.
We set about changing those things in ourselves.
Now
Where is you W in this process?
You have said you are on eggshells yes?
Why are you on eggshells?
What are you afraid of?
That she will not choose to come back to the M?
Or
If she comes back that she will choose at some point that you are not acting the way she needs you to act.
Then
She will walk away?
She is still the victim in her mind here and you are the perpetrator.
I am sorry my friend that is the way I see it.
And you are reinforcing it by pleading with her and apologizing and doing everthing you can so she will consider reconciling.
Who committed the greater crimes in your M?
Well if your going to value the crimes and the punishments then do it.
What if I said someone walking away is the greatest crime in a M? More than emotional abuse that caused it?
One man's festering wound is another man's salvation.
It all very personal to the person so you will end up arguing who was the bigger a$$hole.
My point?
Your W has to stop being the victim here and seeing you as the perp.
Otherwise how can you trust her not to run to the next OM who makes her feel special.
You can either reinforce this idea of hers or not participate in it.
Which one will give you a NEW marriage and one that YOU can trust?
This will take some fortitude and courage on your part because it means letting her be free to make her choices.
And you
Understanding that is the only path back to a healthy M.
What do you mean classic Mars- and Venus- speak???
I'm curious.
Example:
When women talk about their day and problems, they do it to vent and de-stress. My wife does.
When men talk about their day and problems, they are looking for insight, advice.
When my wife talked about problems, I was always trying to offer advice and ways to fix problems, when she didn't try any of my help, I got to the point of tuning her out. "Why is she asking me if she isn't going to listen to me?"
Problem was, she never was asking for advice, she just needed me to listen to her day. And with my wife...5 minutes of real time drama = 5 minutes of talking time drama : ) .
When I talked, I was looking for advice, but she just nodded along and listened and didn't offer any.
We both were doing what we wanted the other to do, without telling the other, Mars Venus.
Now? When my wife talks about her day, about 10 minutes in I ask if she wants advice or if she is just venting, normally it is just venting so I interject the appropriate nods and 'uh-huhs'.
And if I am looking for advice, I tell her before hand.
If I'm looking for a fight?
I tell her that scientific studies have proven that men make better scrambled eggs than women and are better at spatial relations.
Denver, dont want to hurt your feelings, but i feel TG is totally right. It was like Deja Vu reading this comments.
In 2009 wife left because she felt that i was never there for her, that she could not trust me because i supported my parents more than her blah blah blah...Yup, she felt i was the big bad wolf.
Then she came back after 6 months, partly because i changed some and i did woo her to come back. But guess what, she came back with the exact same feelings that she left with. Yup, I changed a lot during that time. Totally stopped my communications with my parents to appease her. I even stopped letting daughter talking to my parents to appease her. Yea things were lil better. But not a by a lot. Since she always felt that she was a victim, any little argument that we had, she just added it on top of her resentment feelings on me. Then she began to say that i had not changed a bit. Then she finally quit on me in 2011.
Why i say this? In 2009, i was just too happy to have her back. No conditions placed on her. But instead had i told not to come back until she exorcised all her resentments towards me at-least, we would not have come to this point.
Once this much damage has happened, i think both spouses need to own up to what they did. You are owning up your part. Your wife does not seem to be. If this happens, you will walk on eggshells. You will enable your wife to feel that she still is a victim and put down your spirits. It is just a vicious circle.
Sorry i am being too judgmental.
No worries Karma. I appreciate the feedback. And it is definitely something that I need to think about.
@TG and Karma,
I understand your points, but I have to ask the question, what does it mean? What is the action?
My understanding here is that Denver is much further a long in the process. He spent months thinking about these things, making changes, etc while his W was not. She has a lot of catching up to do.
Again, the points are valid, but to me, it still just comes down to patience. It will take her time to start seeing things differently. Just as it took Denever time to get to where he is. I'm just not sure focusing on her remorse, or lack there of, is a positive use of energy. She will either see it or she won't. But either way, it will take time.
what does it mean? What is the action?
The action IS patience.
The action may be to pull back a bit in HIS interactions.
The action may be to be able to let her feel life without Denver.
The action may be NOT to enable her victim status.
This ^^^^ one is tough because until she is able to see her own part in the M, and own up to it, then you are back to DB101
Validate her feelings. Not agree with them. Not reinforce them.
Ultimately if Denver is walking on eggshells he will not be able to act like the Denver he wants to be.
He will not have the R with his W he wants if she makes him feel that way.
Denver has been putting all the effort into this. She is accepting his effort but she still holds the cards and doesn't want to lay them down...
Stop the action.
Watch.
See what effort she puts in.
She may run back to OM.
She may not.
Which answer tells you whether she is ready to commit to a mutually trusting M?
Which actions (or inaction) by Denver will sweep the eggshells away?
P.S.
Denver you can answer the questions I asked here or not.
Answer them for yourself.
@TG and Karma,
...
My understanding here is that Denver is much further a long in the process. He spent months thinking about these things, making changes, etc while his W was not. She has a lot of catching up to do.
Again, the points are valid, but to me, it still just comes down to patience. It will take her time to start seeing things differently. Just as it took Denever time to get to where he is. I'm just not sure focusing on her remorse, or lack there of, is a positive use of energy. She will either see it or she won't. But either way, it will take time.
I think Country is wise beyond his post count.
Again, the points are valid, but to me, it still just comes down to patience. It will take her time to start seeing things differently. Just as it took Denever time to get to where he is. I'm just not sure focusing on her remorse, or lack there of, is a positive use of energy. She will either see it or she won't. But either way, it will take time.
Agree with you. I think all of us at some point do have fears if our WAS might change their mind of coming back to us. So in order to have a new meaningful relationship with them, we could either wait for them to realize their mistake and then take them back. But what if they dont?. That fear of losing my wife is what drove me to accept my wife immediately in 2009 when she wanted to come back.
I'd love to hear from the vets here about this. But after you accept them back and exercise patience and do everything possible for the relationship, will your spouse have any reason to realize that she was wrong in playing the victim card? If your spouse does not realize that, where is the change then? You are back to square-1. But if you left them to realize what they have done, then you take the risk of losing them because they might never realize. So out of fear of losing them you accept them hoping that they will change once they came back into the fold with you. But will they???
I dont know...I think i totally confused myself here
. If you got a headache reading above, sorry....
I understand your points, but I have to ask the question, what does it mean? What is the action?
My understanding here is that Denver is much further a long in the process. He spent months thinking about these things, making changes, etc while his W was not. She has a lot of catching up to do.
Here is the thing...
Denver has spent months thinking about these things, however, he is playing the victim role as much as he is enabling her to play the victim role.
Denver learned to DB to win his M back...
He had the goal of reconciliation squarely in his sites. And he has come very close to getting there.
He hasn't DB'd enough to move beyond that goal though. Towards what a relationship looks like. And that is something that his W is seeing.
He wanted/wants to hear the words, you have changed enough and I made a mistake, I want to come back. I was wrong from his W.
Beyond that, nothing, IMO.
Allowing her to play the victim, isn't really an option either, she is gonna have to work on her stuff...
However, Denver is now playing the victim equally. He hasn't moved past the A. Because she hasn't said what he wants to hear. He hasn't set any sort of boundary, because he is afraid that she will decide to walk.
If she does that...then he has not met his goal.
Problem with all of this, is that with no more goals beyond reconciliation, no idea of what he envisions for the future of this relationship, with her still wanting to repair the M that is dead and gone, and him hopefully working toward a new relationship, they are working toward opposite goals.
That will NOT be successful.
Yes they both have to own up to their parts of this, eventually. She has to be ready to do that in her time.
It is up to Denver to decide if he can be patient enough to let her get to that point...
In the meantime, he can sit back, work more on himself, figuring out what he actually wants and needs in a relationship, giving her the time and space to begin to work on herself and watch to see what she does.
The goal is to get your spouse back.
However...
Not at ANY cost.
Letting them back into a relationship, where there aren't any boundaries, you can't talk about what happened and where you shoulder all the blame, and they have no remorse for poor choices?
Ummm...
That's fear driving the LBS.
Hoping things get better, isn't a good plan to lay foundations upon.
Denver,
There is nothing here that I can say that has not already been said. I think you are going to have to be patient. Yes, she sees that you have made some changes. But, to her the changes now make you a bit foreign to her. So, she now has a new uneasiness to deal with when she is with you. It is going to take some time for her to be comfortable with the new you. Give her that time. Yes, the OM hanging around is terrible and will continue to cause and issue until he is gone. But, you can't get rid of him no matter how hard you try. You can't. Only she can get rid of him and she will do that on her timeline, unfortunately...
I wish you luck, buddy. You have come so far, hang in there. Don't loose this now.
FOBD
... I think that my best course of action is to continue being consistent and refocus myself on being patient.
While I do worry that I am being too available to my W and am pursuing her too strongly right now, I worry more that pulling away to see if she will draw closer will only validate her concerns that I have not truly changed and will eventually revert back to old behaviors. That interpretation of my actions by her would be devastating to my situation. I can't risk that right now and I think that it is a strategy that I can save for a later time IF things take more of a turn for the worse.
Exactly. Stay the course.
(TALK ABOUT DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T!)
She is still in contact with the other man! Don't be naive.
When does paranioa fade to suspicion?
When does suspicion fade to trust?
When trust is rebuilt.
She calls you, and lets you know when he is at a gig. I see her trying?
Is she blowing smoke up your kilt?
Do you have good reason to belive she is?
Good reason?
Because outright accusing her of still contacting him without any proof, and you look like some paranoid control freak.
You know, there might be some times when she doesn't tell you he was at a gig, to avoid the obvious discomfort it creates in you and really probally because she doesn't want to deal with it.
I agree don't be naive, if she is out 6 hours past a gig, and has condom wrappers in her purse, don't bury your head in the sand.
But don't be insisting that the other guy is still around when she is trying to prove otherwsie.
(TALK ABOUT DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T!)
She is still in contact with the other man! Don't be naive.
Naive? Please... It would be really difficult to go through life without the ability to have trust in people... at all. If she is still in contact with OM, I have no idea when that would be. She is either with me, at work, or taking care of her son at all times.
I'm on the lookout for signs of what you are saying McQueen, because it is only natural. But I'm not going to act like a paranoid freak either. As Bond said, I have absolutely no reason, let alone a good reason, to think that this is true.
She has been honest with me up to this point. If I can't trust her to continue to be so, then I shouldn't be trying to reconcile my M at all.
Denver
P.S.
Denver you can answer the questions I asked here or not.
Answer them for yourself.
Thanks Gritter. I do want to answer your questions, but literally been too busy with work to really consider what you have said. It's been kind of like trying to read Socrates while inside a burning home lately. LOL...
In the meantime, I'm going back to patience with W and backing off just a wee bit in my interactions with her.
If she is still in contact with OM, I have no idea when that would be. She is either with me, at work, or taking care of her son at all times.
Is just a fancy way of saying my wife is too busy to have an affair.
She is not with you, she refuses to move back home.
Denver:
You've set a timetable. It has not been met when you thought it should be.
You went from no contact to A LOT of contact in short time.
Do you keep a journal?
Go back and read from when you went to dinner with your W to today and you will see it was not long ago.
You expecting a certain outcome by now and it has not happened and now you are disappointed.
What you are trying to do is bring a M back from the dead or in other words go from infant stage to adult stage but you wanted on your timetable.
Notice the theme here.
Contact with OM?
I get that part but you have accepted this part of the R when you said you forgave her.
You also accepted when she told you that she will not end it overnight. You told her you understood.
Do you?
Of course I am already D and sometimes we see our actions after they happen much better than when you are involved in it but I live by my words now much more so than when I was still M.
Every action I took every word i spoke although I meant it I said them to get my W back.
She is gone.
I am moving on.
I still give her the same love because I no longer expect to save anything. I have learned to live them through actions.
Erase the timetable
Erase what you think she should do or not do at this point/
Erase your desire to speed the process along.
Erase the illusion of the control you want to have
Erase the anxiety of OM, if you Trust your W then trust her if you don't then what are you trying to save and why?
Go back to the beginning of the process when you were thinking clearly and logical and expecting very little.
Be patient.
Be the better person that you have become
Go back to the beginning of the process when you were thinking clearly and logical and expecting very little.
Be patient.
Be the better person that you have become
I really like 2step's advice here. Denver, you have come a long way, but the battle is not finished. Stay your course. Look how far it has gotten you so far. Patience.
Aparks. Reread the chapter, It only takes one to tango.
Thanks Gritter. I do want to answer your questions, but literally been too busy with work to really consider what you have said. It's been kind of like trying to read Socrates while inside a burning home lately. LOL...
In the meantime, I'm going back to patience with W and backing off just a wee bit in my interactions with her.
Perfect.
When does paranioa fade to suspicion?
When does suspicion fade to trust?
When trust is rebuilt.
She calls you, and lets you know when he is at a gig. I see her trying?
Is she blowing smoke up your kilt?
Do you have good reason to belive she is?
Good reason?
Because outright accusing her of still contacting him without any proof, and you look like some paranoid control freak.
You know, there might be some times when she doesn't tell you he was at a gig, to avoid the obvious discomfort it creates in you and really probally because she doesn't want to deal with it.
I agree don't be naive, if she is out 6 hours past a gig, and has condom wrappers in her purse, don't bury your head in the sand.
But don't be insisting that the other guy is still around when she is trying to prove otherwsie.
I agree completely.
(TALK ABOUT DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T!)
She is still in contact with the other man! Don't be naive.
Steve--
This isn't what we do here. We encourage folks who are on the right course, not plant seeds of doubt and suspicion. That undermines DBing.
Denver, I have to say that my sitch and yours are really similar in that they are so damn emotionally and mentally confusing. Since I'm so new, my story hasn't been cleared yet, but hopefully you can take a look once it gets cleared for posting.
I feel your pain re: any contact with OM. My W had an EA with a fellow grad student who is much older than her (and me), basically stemmed from her confiding in him that she was considering divorcing me because she knew he had been through a messy divorce himself. W confessed that he kissed her one night when she had been crying and upset over things with me. I found out, and she swears up and down that she told him she couldn't have any contact with him beyond school related stuff...but they have a class together and since the program is so small they regularly have to interact, usually at least twice a week. My only solace is that there are always other people there, and her other friends know we are trying to work things out. Unfortunately, I know that he is still pursuing her/flirting with her (through email and text mostly...snooping on my part, but I needed to know).
So, IMO, I think any contact with OM can be detrimental, especially because he wants her for himself. Again referring to where I am, I don't care if he did honestly treat her as a friend with advice and that sort of thing. Once the relationship crossed that line, anything he said and any advice he gave becomes incredibly suspect.
I have to agree with Jack's post above though...if your W wasn't telling you anything at all, then I'd be worried. In a situation where you know for a fact there is still contact with OM, it really come down to where you are on forgiveness. I know for me, I made the conscious decision to forgive W almost immediately because I knew that my emotional unavailability drove her to confide in someone else. Not excusing what she did, but I'm saying I understand why it happened and my role in it. From there, it's rebuilding the trust that was broken. I have been asking when I have definite knowledge of some kind of communication, but other than that, I've had a painful couple of weeks of learning to let go of my suspicions...it's really the only way to concentrate on what I need to work on in myself to make things right.
Hope that helps, and I also wanted to say that your story has been one of the most inspirational I've read so far. Stay strong man, I'm pulling for ya.
Hi all. I have updates, but just haven't had the time to put them down. Work has been pretty busy. Hopefully in the coming days.
NE - I would be happy to take a look at your sitch as soon as I have a chance to spend some time here. In the meantime, seek out 2Stepboogie... I'm sure he'd be happy to give you his 2 cents.
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Denver
Denver, hope all is going ok for you. Haven't seen you on in a while.
Thanks NE. I haven't been on in a while. I have been busy at work and kind of need a break.
Quick update. I don't feel like going into specifics. W has continued to pull back. She says that she is not ready to commit to me or anyone right now. Says that she needs to decide to commit to M on her own and not bc it is what her family or I want her to do. Apparently, she is feeling pressure to reconcile with me from her family. She does say that she enjoys spending time with me, but that it feels weird. I don't really know what to do.
When I asked her what she wants me to do, she told me that she just wants me to just be patient... that things are not going to happen on my timeline. Where have I heard that before? When I asked her if she wants me to just walk away, she told me, 'that would say a lot about you and your feelings'. She told me that I need to realize that she never had intentions of ever trying to work things out, that she never thought that I would try so hard to fix things. That my changes, which she repeatedly acknowledges, took her by surprise. That I need to realize that she was 'dating' someone. That 'this' isn't going to happen overnight. She also admits to having some of the feelings of anger and resentment that she had toward me when she left... 'although not as bad'.
Some positives comments that W has made: She commented about a couple of things that my mom did decorate around our house when she was visiting. W said that she was 'annoyed' that my mom had done some of the things she did. W asked me, jokingly, if I was going to replace some carpet in our house. There have been other small, passing comments that W has made that refer to us having a future together. But then again, she is admittedly confused.
She is having contact with OM at this point. Mostly phone conversations, but she did have him over for dinner last night. She was very upfront about it. Said it was bc his father is dying and wants to be a friend to him. But she has also admitted that she is having a difficult time 'just dropping him' when he has been so good to her and just bc 'you decided to get your your sh!t together.' She says in many ways, she feels that isn't fair. She also asked me what I thought would happen if she rushed back into committing to the M and moving home and still had 'feelings' for OM. When I told her that I didn't really know, she told me that she didn't think that it would be good. I don't know what she intends to do with these 'feelings' or how she thinks continuing contact with OM is going to resolve that, but maybe she is just processing her feelings like she says that she needs to do. Whatever. I can't control what she does or how she 'processes' her feelings.
I asked her how she sees things moving forward... she says that she doesn't know. That she just needs time and thinks that things will 'sort themselves out'. I have absolutely no idea how that is going to work, but again, whatever.
Pretty clear that W is extremely confused. But she is also cake eating to an extent. I know that Jack3beans may disagree that what she is doing is cake eating bc she is being upfront about things, but it sure seems like all she is doing is cake eating knowing that she has the power to do it.
Things are beginning to take a serious emotional toll on me. It is probably obvious from the tone of this post. I don't think that I should continue to be crucified for my past f*ckups. I can handle being patient with her confusion, but don't know if I can if she continues to have contact with OM. I should say that I trust that she is not having any kind of physical R with OM at this point. Say what you want, but I know my W. Besides, she is being truthful about the contact that she is having with him and has been brutality honest about their R when they were 'dating'. I have no reason not to trust her at this point. But I simply don't see how she and I can get to the point of true reconcillation until OM is out of the picture for good.
Lastly, she decided a couple of weeks ago that she was not going to move back into the house when her current lease expires at the end of May. She said that she didn't think that it would be smart for us for her to move back in when she is still confused. I agreed. She said that she was going to find a new, cheaper, place that would give her a month to month lease. Her current place is way out of her financial means. So, I was a tiny bit encouraged tonight when she told me that she is renewing her lease with the current place that she cannot afford. It will be on a month to month basis. I guess I find this encouraging bc she knows that she can't afford it, yet she is choosing to stay there for the time being. Probably mind reading here, but I think that it is bc she has an idea that ultimately she is going to move back home. But that she just needs a little more time like she says. It would make sense that she doesn't want to go through the hassle of finding another place and moving all of her stuff if that's what she ultimately intends to do. At least that is what I hope. But I could be wrong. Obviously I was wrong about where things were heading with us 3 weeks ago. Guess we'll see.
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Denver
Denver,
Your frustration and aggravation is completely normal. Don't fell bad about feeling that way. It does seem to me also that she is kind of sitting the fence to your detriment. I guess only you can decide how long you are willing to let that continue. Not to mention, the two of you were moving pretty fast toward something, so you have to expect she is going to pull back a bit. Only you know how long you are willing to put up with this. Only you.
As for the lease thing, don't worry about this. You are going to set yourself up for a fall again if you try to use your logic and reason with her decisions. I did the same thing back in December. I heard my W had to move out of her place and I got all excited. I heard she had no where to go and I thought this might mean she was coming home. I was wrong and I was devastated. Don't set yourself up like that. OK?
I wish I had some cool words of wisdom, but I don't. I have pretty much left the forum because I can no longer visit my sitch night after night. It is just too much. I posted an update tonight for the first time in a week. I too am very, very emotionally tired. There is a part of me that wants to blow the whole thing up with some stupid action just so that it can all be "really over." Today, it was 240 days since she moved out. I am starting to forget what it was like to have her here. Life without her is becoming the norm and it scares the sh*t out of me. Because if it is happening to me as the LBS, you know it is happening to her in a bigger and more profound way as the WAS. I believe my journey is coming to an end. But, you have some much more to fight for. Don't give up. Not yet. You and 2step are both dealing with WAS's that are confused. That means there is still hope. My WAS is not confused. She knows what she wants and she is going to get it.
Take care!
FOBD
I assume from your name that you are somewhere near Denver. Why not book some time with Michelle Weiner-Davis? I've heard that she is absolutely fabulous.
Your wife is waiting for Cupid to hit her with an arrow, or for the stars to align, or some other outside force to grab her and tell her what she wants in life. She needs to spend some time in a positive structured way to look inward and see what she wants. Love doesn't come from the outside. It is a decision. Waiting around for a decision to happen to you is not the way it works.
Of course, I recommend Retrouvaille. But I know your wife works weekends and won't give up a weekend for something else.
My husband and I went to a Retro meeting this past weekend because we both know that we are slipping back into roommate status. And no, the path of our interaction there was not natural. We neither could or would have had that conversation by ourselves. We were led to the topic by the leaders of the group. And it was a good bonding experience. Afterwards, we felt better about ourselves.
Marriage is a lifelong commitment. This won't be the only hard time. It's important to find a way of dealing with the problems that works for you. Waiting for them to just go away isn't it.
Your wife is waiting for Cupid to hit her with an arrow, or for the stars to align, or some other outside force to grab her and tell her what she wants in life. She needs to spend some time in a positive structured way to look inward and see what she wants. Love doesn't come from the outside. It is a decision. Waiting around for a decision to happen to you is not the way it works.
I completely agree, but unfortunately, she cannot make such an important choice while still under the emotional (and even physiological) influence of another man. And even Retrouvaille (which I heartily recommend!) won't take a couple when there is still an active affair going on.
You're in a tough spot, Denver, and I can't tell you what to do. I would, however, encourage you to STOP assuming that your wife is telling you the truth. I've followed your entire sitch, and she has not been honest with you pretty much the whole way. Just because she fesses up to some contact with OM, doesn't mean she's "being completely honest." In fact, nearly every person in affairs admits, when confronted, to some level of contact that's LESS than what's actually going on ("just friends" = EA, EA = PA, etc.). You need to base your decision with the premise that she's entangled in an affair with this man, and decide accordingly.
I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it. I'm sorry, but I've really grown to like and respect you, and the way you've fought for your marriage and your family, and your wife makes me angry -- angry FOR YOU. She's still asking you to jump thru hoops (change the carpet???), and WITHOUT any commitment from her!!
Finally, this:
She also asked me what I thought would happen if she rushed back into committing to the M and moving home and still had 'feelings' for OM.
I think my answer would have been:
"I'd be fine with that; I'm not asking you to shut off your FEELINGS -- that's going to take awhile, many, many months. I'm asking you to shut off your CONTACT. Because until the contact stops, you're going to continue to have feelings for this man, and I refuse to compete with that."
Starsky
I agree with Lotus. If not MWD, at least a call to your DB coach. She will know how to help get you centered again and back on track. Believe it or not Denver, your in a position that most of us on this board would kill for. Keep going my man, no one said this part was any easier.
Hey man good to hear from you.
I figured you were procesing all this stuff.
I am sorry to hear where it sits right now but you know what?
It is a process. And it doesn't happen when or how we would like usually.
But I simply don't see how she and I can get to the point of true reconcillation until OM is out of the picture for good.
Absolutely the truth.
Now comes the part for your courage.
Go back and read the posts to you a few pages back. There is some good stuff there for you to think about and how to apply it to your situation.
I still believe your W is playing the victim role here. She is confused
When will you be confident enough in your changes and what you want in your life and how to live it?
Because that is the only way you can show her who you are and she will either see it or she won't.
She won't if you are sacrificing yourself at all costs to bring her back into the M.
It will only reinforce her stance that you are 100% responsible for this and she can do what she wants.
Do you think that kind of thinking is going to work in your M?
My advice?
Let her be like she said she wants.
Let her live without Denver pulling her back into the M.
Let her take some steps on her own.
I think Starsky was spot on with his advice. There are many on these posts that have grown to admire you Denver and the way you have fought for your marriage.
There is a fine line between being a doormatt and being compasionate for what she is going through.
I was and still have anger for what she did, but I am also understanding that my wife is not well and has made some very poor decisions.
If what you say is true about you being a bit of a jerk throughout the marriage ( and I cant believe that is as bad as you say), a few months of change may not be enough to convince her or make up for years of neglect.
Patience, Patience Patience.
Just keep your head on straight, be aware of all possibilities and dont Kiss her A$$. She will not respect that.
All the best Denver. YOU KNOW we are all pulling for you.
9
When will you be confident enough in your changes and what you want in your life and how to live it?
Because that is the only way you can show her who you are and she will either see it or she won't.
She won't if you are sacrificing yourself at all costs to bring her back into the M.
It will only reinforce her stance that you are 100% responsible for this and she can do what she wants.
Do you think that kind of thinking is going to work in your M?
My advice?
Let her be like she said she wants.
Let her live without Denver pulling her back into the M.
Let her take some steps on her own.
Starsky
Hey Denver, great to hear from you.
Sorry to hear things have backtracked a bit, but don’t lose track of how far you have come.
Things are beginning to take a serious emotional toll on me.
Totally understandable. That is why I think it is important to slow down. Give yourself a break to regroup. Whatever works best for you. A weekend away maybe.
I also suggest re-reading the book, and like suggested above maybe time for a DB coaching session. Whatever it takes you get you stronger and prepared for the reality of how tough this is going to be.
TG’s advice is great. You can’t do this alone. And trying to will only continue to wear you out.
All of life is a journey; which paths we take, what we look back on, and what we look forward to is up to us. We determine our destination, what kind of road we will take to get there, and how happy we are when we get there
Ahhh no, not exactly.
Having him over for dinner and being upfront about it, sort of flys in the face of what she had previously told you.
"Cake eating" I actually despise the term. It is an individual definition with individual parameters. Much like "door mat". These are personal definitions. You define them for yourself, what you are capable of handling, tolerating, suckking up. Much like family and friends advising you. What you would tolerate I might not, what Country might tolerate you might not.
As for the dinner because of a dying father. Let me be the blunt asss in the room. What's next, when the man dies? After that, his dog ran away? He lost his job?
In the future.
IN the FUTURE.
In her life if you are her husband, he is not her friend.
If he is her friend, then you aren't married.
I do not know any marriage concilor that says or thinks having the OP anywhere near the couple live's is helpful or good for the recovering marriage.
That is your boundary.
In the here and now?
It might not be in your best interest to establish THAT bounary, right now.
She doesn't trust you; yet. You're not at the point of being able to walk away without an angry stone heart. You'd be doing it to push her to a choice you want her to make rather than from the point that you truly are good with either choice. Do it too soon and you'll be dissapointed in her and angry.
A boundary once establish means your force them to make a choice AND you have to live with decision. It's an ultimatium.
Starsky is correct in that many of them 'dumb down' the information they give you. Not being completely honest. From my own experience as a WAH I certainly did, as an LBS she certainly did it to me. 'Lies of ommission' are still lies.
Everyone is saying, even me, "You or him" That's the truth.
However, I am asking you to determine the correct TIME of that statement and stance.
I see what you are doing as f-ing up her game plan. Screwing with her preconcieved notions of who and what Denver really is.
You're a work in progress Denver.
You'll admit; I hope, that you are addressing issues that you didn't like in yourself. Bettering yourself. I know you didn't come here for that, you came here to save your marriage. You improving yourself gives you that best chance.
This time, this HELL you find yourself in. This is the fire you refine yourself in. And she is watching. This time, and your actions, word, deeds and attitude during this time, will confirm or errode her fear and conceptions about you.
There will come a time, when you will say, "Him or me." Although I believe Grit had a much better way of saying it once. I'll keep it simple.
"Him or me." That stance that is adamant. No dickering. And from a place where you are capable of fullfilling your part of the ulitimatium. Where you mean it, where you'd like her in your life, but don't need her. After you have shown her what you are truely capable of. When you have shown her absolutley that you are not a trick, and that boundary is not a trick.
Has enough time passed yet Denver? Should she believe you?
I am not saying compete with f-nuts. I am saying use this time to destroy the guy you are REALLY competeing with: The Old Denver she left.
A boundary once establish means your force them to make a choice AND you have to live with decision. It's an ultimatium.
DISAGREE. A boundary, properly articulated, is very different than an "ultimatum." An ultimatum is "You must give up OM, or I'm done." A boundary is "I will not live in an open marriage."
An ultimatum is about THEM; a boundary is about US, and what we will (or won't) abide.
At first, they seem the same, but really, you're saying basically this:
Her: "So you're saying I must make a choice, him or you?"
You: "I'm not saying anything other than what I'm looking for in my marriage. It's completely up to you what you decide to do; I just felt it only fair to let you know I'm not willing to live in an open marriage."
Her: "So you're making me choose -- that's so unfair! I wasn't ready for you to make all of these changes, so fast! I was done with you!"
You: "I understand that, and again, I'm not telling you what you should do. I'm letting you know, as my wife, that what YOU decide to do, will affect what I decide to do, and that each of our decisions have consequences. I'm being completely honest with you; I have no desire to be anyone's 'Plan B'. I value myself way too much for that."
There's a difference.
Let me put it another way. Instead of "Mrs. Denver," you replace it with "My Wife." As in:
"I'm just letting you know, that my wife will not be living in an open marriage with me; I value myself way too much for that. Whether or not that wife is you, is completely up to you. You're an adult, and I don't control you nor do I have any desire to."
Starsky
Jack, I just printed your response out and put copies in my office, my planner, and one to have in my notebook at home.
Sorry to hijack here Denver, but this speaks so clearly to where I'm at too. EVERYTHING I've done up to now has done nothing but make OM more attractive. This week is going to be the hardest I've had so far, but I need to back off and let her deal with whatever the F is going on in her head. I am certain that there's more that she's dealing with than just him or me because she's outlined a lot of it.
Denver, we both need to concentrate on the things we can control. Both of our W's have seen that we're making changes, it's time to take that next step as Jack is suggesting. Our happiness cannot and should not depend on our WAS, it has to come from the new selves that we refine in this fire (Jack, don't know where that line came from, but it is AMAZING). I am so inspired right now. Hope you are too.
I pretty much agree with Jack.
A boundary IS an ultimatum.What comes at the other side of crossing that line as a consequence makes it an ultimatum. No matter how the words are disguised.
On the board there is so much talking about what our spouses do that we often forget to talk about what we did that got us here and what we may or may not still be doing.
Your wife did not intend to ever come back. And like Jack said, you screwed with it. It appears she still does not intend to come back, although she is entertaining the idea from time to time. She is also entertaining the idea of not coming back and deciding who she is going to deepen a relationship with, if anyone.
You are most likely NOT in a position to set ultimatums/boundaries and I think you know it. The other guy is NOT your biggest problem. And you know that too. A love that is compelling enough for her to come home to is your goal. Whatever speaks love to her most.
You may feel you are being crucified for your past, but you are not. Your relationship dynamics drove her away. You are not still paying for it, you have done a great job of drawing her back in all over again, you just haven't drawn her 'ALL IN'. The good news is, the OM hasn't yet either.
Draw her 'ALL IN'. If anyone can, you can.
Thanks FOBD. I know that we've lost touch with each other a little here on the boards. I am still very much caught up on your sitch and wish you nothing but the best. I know that you will find happiness again soon. Hang in there man.
BITS
Denver
I assume from your name that you are somewhere near Denver. Why not book some time with Michelle Weiner-Davis? I've heard that she is absolutely fabulous.
Looked into that, but can't really afford to do that. She's like $5k per day. Even if W thought that she was in a place to continue with MC right now, I doubt that she'd let me/us spend that much on it.
Your wife is waiting for Cupid to hit her with an arrow, or for the stars to align, or some other outside force to grab her and tell her what she wants in life.
Absolutely she is. She's even told me that she's keeps expecting some sort of sign that tells her what the right thing is for her to do.
She needs to spend some time in a positive structured way to look inward and see what she wants. Love doesn't come from the outside. It is a decision. Waiting around for a decision to happen to you is not the way it works.
I agree with you 100%. Don't think that W is seeing it that way right now. She needs to spend time processing her feelings... structured or unstructured. She is one of the busiest people that I have ever known. And over the past 3 months, she has spent all of her free time with me. So, as she has explained to me, she needs to give herself time to process her feelings. She hasn't said this, but I think that she is looking to the end of her school year, i.e. her summer months off from teaching, to do this. Or at least that is what she is hoping she can do.
Her statement that things will 'sort themselves out' has me perplexed though. I just don't view life that way... as if, like you said, some magical bullet just hits us with the correct answer to our questions.
Of course, I recommend Retrouvaille. But I know your wife works weekends and won't give up a weekend for something else.
I know that you do Lotus. She agreed to do it in March, but we couldn't find a weekend where one or the other of us didn't have to work. We were going to look at the schedule again and find something in the late summer or early fall. But we don't appear to be on that track now.
Thanks Lotus.
I completely agree, but unfortunately, she cannot make such an important choice while still under the emotional (and even physiological) influence of another man.
Agreed. This is why I feel so devastated right now and feel at a loss as to how to proceed.
you're in a tough spot, Denver, and I can't tell you what to do. I would, however, encourage you to STOP assuming that your wife is telling you the truth. I've followed your entire sitch, and she has not been honest with you pretty much the whole way. Just because she fesses up to some contact with OM, doesn't mean she's "being completely honest." In fact, nearly every person in affairs admits, when confronted, to some level of contact that's LESS than what's actually going on ("just friends" = EA, EA = PA, etc.). You need to base your decision with the premise that she's entangled in an affair with this man, and decide accordingly.
I get what you are saying. I really do. There is no question that there is an emotional attachment with OM that W is having trouble with ... and is now perpetuating. I am pretty confident though that there is no PA at the current moment. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. That also doesn't mean that there could be a week from now or a month from now. I know that I am in dangerous territory.
I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it. I'm sorry, but I've really grown to like and respect you, and the way you've fought for your marriage and your family, and your wife makes me angry -- angry FOR YOU. She's still asking you to jump thru hoops (change the carpet???), and WITHOUT any commitment from her!!
I appreciate all of that Starsky. In her defense about the carpet, she was just kidding around when I told her that I was working on her mother's day gift. She said, 'what are you replacing the carpet in the family room for my gift'. That's neither here nor there.
The other stuff? Yeah, easy to get angry at W for it at this point if I let it. The only way that I keep myself from letting anger creep in is to remind myself of what I made her put up with for the better part of 8 years and the horrible way that I treated her during the last 10 months that we were together. I guess that I'd rather focus on that than let anger get the better of me. Frankly, it's all very depressing more than anything right now.
Finally, this:
She also asked me what I thought would happen if she rushed back into committing to the M and moving home and still had 'feelings' for OM.
I think my answer would have been:
"I'd be fine with that; I'm not asking you to shut off your FEELINGS -- that's going to take awhile, many, many months. I'm asking you to shut off your CONTACT. Because until the contact stops, you're going to continue to have feelings for this man, and I refuse to compete with that."
I did say something along those lines on Sunday after she told me that she was having OM over for dinner. She told me that me asking her to cut off contact with OM was the same thing as me asking her to commit to me and the M, which she is not ready to do.
I agree with Lotus. If not MWD, at least a call to your DB coach. She will know how to help get you centered again and back on track. Believe it or not Denver, your in a position that most of us on this board would kill for. Keep going my man, no one said this part was any easier.
This part is NOT any easier. It sure appeared that way in March though.
Thanks for the support IW. I really feel the need to apologize to you and all of the others here whose situations I had been tracking. I have fallen off the map a bit here on the board. I have really needed a break from it. And, quite frankly, work has really taken a lot of my time lately. Not to mention the time that I have put in with W and SS. Anyway, I apologize. I hope that I can get back into the swing of things soon and start reciprocate the support that everyone continues to give me.
I think Starsky was spot on with his advice. There are many on these posts that have grown to admire you Denver and the way you have fought for your marriage.
There is a fine line between being a doormatt and being compasionate for what she is going through.
I was and still have anger for what she did, but I am also understanding that my wife is not well and has made some very poor decisions.
If what you say is true about you being a bit of a jerk throughout the marriage ( and I cant believe that is as bad as you say), a few months of change may not be enough to convince her or make up for years of neglect.
Patience, Patience Patience.
Just keep your head on straight, be aware of all possibilities and dont Kiss her A$$. She will not respect that.
All the best Denver. YOU KNOW we are all pulling for you.
9
Thanks for the support Nine. I don't know. I was pretty bad for the majority of our R. I won't go into the specifics again right now, but I can definitely see that I caused my W some serious emotional trauma. I see it clear as day now. So I think that you are correct that a few months is not enough for her to trust my changes. Problem is, is that I don't know if ANY amount of time will be enough... and neither does she.
So at what point does patience equate to wasting my life away?
BITS
Denver
Country - Thanks for the continued support man. Again, I have to throw out an apology for being a absent DB'er here on the boards. I've needed a break from updating and responding etc. I probably will disappear again for a few weeks after today too.
Anyway, I did reread portions of DR yesterday. I thought that was a good thing to do too. I also went back and reviewed some things that I cut and pasted in my solutions journal. It helped some, but it also depressed me quite a bit too. I don't know if I can go back to where I was in January or even February after feeling that I was so close to reaching the mountain top.
That is my quandary.
BITS
Denver
So at what point does patience equate to wasting my life away?
When
you waste your time.
So at what point does patience equate to wasting my life away?
Oh, come on, you know better than this.
You have mentioned that you and your W have been spending all of your free time together. Doesn't seem like that gives you much time for YOU.
You can be patient and
wait.
Or, you can be patient and go skiing. Be patient while you take a trip. Be patient while you (insert good time here).
Don't forget to take care of Denver.
Again, I have to throw out an apology for being a absent DB'er here on the boards. I've needed a break from updating and responding etc
No worries at all man. I know it can get to be too much at times.
I don't know if I can go back to where I was in January or even February after feeling that I was so close to reaching the mountain top.
What is the advice they give people who are climbing a mountain? DON’T LOOK DOWN!
Denver,
You know I have never been one to really mix words...
You are trying once again to find immediate answers to questions that don't have immediate answers...
Do you love your W enough to be patient?
Or did your vows mean, as long as everything is on my timeline?
Patience or wasting life?
A question we all ask...
Standing...
Does NOT means standing STILL...
When you don't have to ask the question anymore, THEN you will know YOUR true answer...
Hey man good to hear from you.
I figured you were procesing all this stuff.
I am sorry to hear where it sits right now but you know what?
It is a process. And it doesn't happen when or how we would like usually.
Yep. When my W was talking this weekend I thought of you. She used phrases like,
"this is going to happen on your timeline Denver",
"this is going to take time",
"You can't expect me to be where you are emotionally Denver"
LOL... You been talking to my W Gritter?
I recognize that it is a process. I would be handling it much better if it were going along in a logical manner though. What has thrown me for an emotional loop is the fact that she has gone from spending time with me almost daily, calling me mutliple time per day, agreeing to MC, no contact with OM ... to limited hanging out time, being distant, 1 or 2 telephone/text contacts per day... and now contact with OM.
Get what I am saying... it's like I was a starving man who had a bowl of the most delicious steak in the world put in front of his nose in March... to have the bowl pulled away from me about 10 feet.
It is frustrating...
I admit, I have backslid in some ways myself. I am completely attached to my W. There is something inside of me that makes me feel that I 'need' her rather than just 'want' her. I am affected by her every move or word.
I can acknowledge these things, but am unsure how to get back to where I was. Or maybe I was never there. I just don't know right now.
I still believe your W is playing the victim role here. She is confused
When will you be confident enough in your changes and what you want in your life and how to live it?
Because that is the only way you can show her who you are and she will either see it or she won't.
She won't if you are sacrificing yourself at all costs to bring her back into the M.
It will only reinforce her stance that you are 100% responsible for this and she can do what she wants.
Do you think that kind of thinking is going to work in your M?
My advice?
Let her be like she said she wants.
Let her live without Denver pulling her back into the M.
Let her take some steps on her own.
You are right Gritter. She does view herself as the victim. That is how she justifies her decision to 'date' when we separated... it is how she avoids feeling the guilt that I KNOW is there somewhere inside of her. I don't know if she will ever NOT feel that she is/was the victim in this situation. Changing that will require W to face that guilt.
Here is the rub with pulling back and letting her be... I don't want to appear as if I have reverted to old behaviors.
The whole reason W left me in the first place is bc I was not there for her emotionally, I didn't show her that I loved her, I did not spend time with her, and bc I was neglectful of her. I made her feel lonely in our M.
She is asking for space now. I understand that. But if I give it to her do I not risk her being reminded of the way that I was before? Do I not risk her going back to OM for that support?
I already know what your answer to these questions will be Gritter. I know. It just seems like a situation with no good solution.
As always Gritter, thanks for following my sitch and for the great advice. I appreciate it.
BITS
Denver
So at what point does patience equate to wasting my life away?
When
you waste your time.
Jack & Country - There is no question that you are both absolutely 100% right about this. And I know that this is the exact same thing that I would tell anyone else who posed the question that I did.
I'm not going to lie to you, I feel paralyzed right now. I know where I need to be and what I need to be doing, but can't seem to get myself to move in that direction.
BITS
Denver
I know where I need to be and what I need to be doing, but can't seem to get myself to move in that direction.
Isn't this the old Denver?
How is this working for you?
You know I have never been one to really mix words...
You are trying once again to find immediate answers to questions that don't have immediate answers...
I'm just not a person who can typically live my life without a plan Cat. I've done it for going on 6 months now. Is that a long time in the grand scheme of things? No. Someday, in hindsight, I will be able to see it that way rather than just say it. As it is right now, in the moment, I feel that I want a plan. Am I single? Am I M'd? Should I file for D and get this over with? I don't know anymore.
Ok, beat me with the 2x4 for what I just said. I want... I feel... my W isn't there yet. I know. And finally... I guess ... I am just venting in some ways.
Do you love your W enough to be patient?
Or did your vows mean, as long as everything is on my timeline?
Patience or wasting life?
A question we all ask...
Standing...
Does NOT means standing STILL...
When you don't have to ask the question anymore, THEN you will know YOUR true answer...
Do I love my W enough to be patient? I do. My vows were not conditioned with everything being on my timeline. But Cat, what about my W's vows? At what point should that become an important piece here? I know that I f*cked up our M. I do. I honestly do. But does that mean that I deserve to be perpetually crucified for it? To me, it is beginning to seem like punishment.
There are two points of view on how to approach these situations here on this board. The hard line approach is frowned upon here and I have genuinely come to believe in the more understanding approach... the unconditional love, standing for your M approach. I still believe that. My question is does that work when the WAS starts to take advantage of it?
Is my W doing that? I don't know.
Thanks for your thoughts Cat. I'm not in a good way right now, but I know that what you say is sound advice. I'm just having difficulty seeing it right now.
At what point should that become an important piece here? I know that I f*cked up our M. I do. I honestly do.
When she comes to the same realization you have; that's when it becomes important.
Till then, it's just tit for tat, from both sides.
Denver...
Long time reader here, just don't post a ton....
What you are feeling is pretty normal when the focus is on the outcome, instead of the journey.
When you focus on the outcome, your actions will take you to places that are not real within yourself.
Does that remind you of anyone you used to be ?
The way I see it is....
You have two choices right now.
Focus on the outcome ?
OR just being that new Denver that you found...
Each is goal oriented...
Which is easiest to achieve ?
Goals for you ?
Or goals for the relationship ?
Ahhh no, not exactly.
Having him over for dinner and being upfront about it, sort of flys in the face of what she had previously told you.
"Cake eating" I actually despise the term. It is an individual definition with individual parameters. Much like "door mat". These are personal definitions. You define them for yourself, what you are capable of handling, tolerating, suckking up. Much like family and friends advising you. What you would tolerate I might not, what Country might tolerate you might not.
As for the dinner because of a dying father. Let me be the blunt asss in the room. What's next, when the man dies? After that, his dog ran away? He lost his job?
In the future.
IN the FUTURE.
In her life if you are her husband, he is not her friend.
If he is her friend, then you aren't married.
Totally agree Jack. But how is she going to get to a point of committing to our M when she has feelings for OM that we ALL know she isn't dealing with properly?
And how does she GET that she isn't going to be able to deal with these feelings for OM while she continues contact with him?
I can't tell her that. Her family can't tell her that. She is going to do what she feels like doing right now. Do the detriment of me, SS and our M.
How???? That is my number 1 question. If someone could give me an answer... I could quit driving myself f'ing nuts.
Could I be patient with her confusion, with her indecision? YES, if she understood that contact with OM is only making things worse. Hell, I might be able to continue being patient if she cut off contact with me in order to deal with her feelings for OM.
Exactly what I am saying above. But my W is not committed to making our M work right now. In her words, she just wants to do whatever makes her happy at any given moment right now. She enjoys spending time with me, enjoys talking with me... if she feels like doing that, she going to. But that obviously applies to OM, or anyone else for that matter, too.
[quote=Jack_Three_Beans]That is your boundary.
In the here and now?
It might not be in your best interest to establish THAT bounary, right now.
Not unless I go with the Last, last resort technique and am prepared to end my M. And I will be honest, when I was rereading DR yesterday, I considered that.
ONe thing that I don't know if I've mentioned in my previous updates, I asked W how she would feel if I began dating... she said that she'd 'never f'ing talk to [me] again'...
When I mentioned that I was on the phone with a 'friend' for 2 hours on Sunday night... she said, 'I love how you are being so vague about who you were talking to'...
See... W has set boundaries on me... yet I am expected to let her do whatever the hell she wants to do.
Am I whining when I say that that is not fair?! Do I deserve that? Even with my admitted crappy behavior during our M?
She doesn't trust you; yet.
This is the only statement that I find any solace in. Bc I believe that it is a true statement of how she feels. She has acknowledged my changes time and time again. She has stated that she believe that they are for real.
BUT, she has also said that she worries that things will go back to the way that they were if she comes home. She has told me 2 or 3 times when she has noticed behavior that has reminded her of how I used to behave. Nothing huge. For example... I was a little upset about our R talk on Friday night. As we were walking back to the car, I walked a few feet in front of her and was silent. She called me on it. Said that 'this is something that I don't like about us' and then when on to explain what she was seeing. She was right. I validated and told her that i was just upset. Then I did something that is NOT the old me... I was able to recover and enjoy the rest of the evening.
But it is this distrust in my changes that scares her. She is scared to death of me emotionally.
My only solace and only rational basis for maintaining hope, IMO.
You're not at the point of being able to walk away without an angry stone heart. You'd be doing it to push her to a choice you want her to make rather than from the point that you truly are good with either choice. Do it too soon and you'll be dissapointed in her and angry.
A boundary once establish means your force them to make a choice AND you have to live with decision. It's an ultimatium.
I recognize that and am realize that I am not in a place to set this boundary... YET.
Starsky is correct in that many of them 'dumb down' the information they give you. Not being completely honest. From my own experience as a WAH I certainly did, as an LBS she certainly did it to me. 'Lies of ommission' are still lies.
I agree. I know this. I guess what I am saying is that I honestly don't believe that she is 'dumbing down' the physical piece. My W is simply not the type of person who can be physical with someone when she is not somewhat committed to them emotionally. Right now, she is emotionally committed to no one.
But is she dumbing down the emotional component of her conversations with OM? This is a serious concern of mine.
Everyone is saying, even me, "You or him" That's the truth.
However, I am asking you to determine the correct TIME of that statement and stance.
I see what you are doing as f-ing up her game plan. Screwing with her preconcieved notions of who and what Denver really is.
I think that this is true. And I think her noticing my f'ups and telling me that if I choose to walk away that it would say a lot about me and my feelings are evidence of that.
You're a work in progress Denver.
You'll admit; I hope, that you are addressing issues that you didn't like in yourself. Bettering yourself. I know you didn't come here for that, you came here to save your marriage. You improving yourself gives you that best chance.
This time, this HELL you find yourself in. This is the fire you refine yourself in. And she is watching. This time, and your actions, word, deeds and attitude during this time, will confirm or errode her fear and conceptions about you.
Well, I admit I'm not in a good place right now. I have done a pretty bang up job of acting 'as if' for the past 2 days though. I guess that's all I can do until I truly get back on track.
There will come a time, when you will say, "Him or me." Although I believe Grit had a much better way of saying it once. I'll keep it simple.
"Him or me." That stance that is adamant. No dickering. And from a place where you are capable of fullfilling your part of the ulitimatium. Where you mean it, where you'd like her in your life, but don't need her. After you have shown her what you are truely capable of. When you have shown her absolutley that you are not a trick, and that boundary is not a trick.
Has enough time passed yet Denver? Should she believe you?
I am not saying compete with f-nuts. I am saying use this time to destroy the guy you are REALLY competeing with: The Old Denver she left.
No... not enough time has passed. But I'm not sure that this justifies the backslide on her side.
Thanks Jack.
BITS
Denver
Denver:
Take a time out for yourself to regenerate.
And YOU said it best:
Be Impeccable With Your Word
Don't Take Anything Personally
Don't Make Assumptions
Always Do Your Best
YOU can do this.
Thanks Dbmod and Mach. I'm trying to figure this out. I really am.
One thing that I have forgotten to mention is that my W did watch MWD's video on WAW syndrome. She agreed that it was 'us' to a t.
However, she said that the one thing that the video does not talk about is if or when the WAW ever begins to feel 'in love' with the LBS again. She wonders if these WAW's who end up giving their LBS's a second chance just end up being unhappy anyway, even though their S's have changed and become the S that they always wanted them to be. That is one of her fear's. She says for her anyway, she buried her 'in love' feelings for me so deep in order to gain the strength to leave me, that she does not know if she can find them again.
Just wondering if anyone has thoughts on this or a good response to this if it comes up for me again (my only response was that it is all about forgiveness).
Thanks all.
BITS
Denver
Why not formulate a question to Michele for her facebook page:
question@divorcebusting.com
You asked me to look at your thread. So I did. Put a helmet on b/c some 2 x 4's are coming your way.
Please read and give me any feedback that you can. I know that this is long. I'm sorry.
Unfortunately, this update isn't nearly as positive that i'd like it to be.
After weeks of moving closer to me, W has pulled away some over the past 8 days or so.
W and I have continued daily contact and have still hung our almost every day.
There is a lot to write about, so I will try to hit the main events, conversations and statements as well as I can.
Friday April 1st - W and I went out drinking. Ended up in a long conversation a about R. Subject of OM came up and I wasn't able to hold back my contempt. I explained to my W how OM was a vulture and had preyed on her during a time when she was emotionally vulnerable. W stated that "I might agree with you in 20 years, but right now I don't." She ended up defending him by saying that she didn't have anything bad to say about him and that he is a really nice guy. She told me, "I hate that I have to feel that I have to defend OM with you, but I feel like I do."
So you drank, did R talk, and challenged her choices on OM so she defended those choices. 3 big mistakes on your end.
My bad. I f'd up here. I NEED to stop engaging in conversation about OM. And I certainly need to stop criticizing him with W. I know that I am doing it bc I have this need to try and convince my W to agree with my feelings on the subject. This is not going to happen and I need to just accept it. This behavior only puts my W and OM on the same team, in opposition of me. Not conducive to my goals, and not in line with the 180's and life changes that I have worked so hard to achieve.
Yes to all of above...enough already. Rise above this so that you look better when you are compared to him, which you will be. Thing is, if you are honest, you know YOU will win in some respects if you simply focus on being a great father b/c women are moved by loving interactions of their children with their father figure . It's a turn on. He cannot win there. But you can blow it.
The conversation got heated, and I did have to walk away to cry a bit and get myself together. I ended up taking W to the house that she is renting. This was the first time that she has let me know where she lives. I walked her in and left.
Don't cry in front of her again.
We had a very good rest of the weekend. Took SS to Rockies game on Saturday night and to an Avalanche game on Sunday night. We had a great time.
Tuesday April 5th - SS has serious issues with school. He has an IEP and has been determined to have severe emotional disability. He is in his first year at his middle school and has struggled all year. The school had a meeting regarding some recent suspensions and I had told W that I would go with her if she wanted me to. Before our S, I was very involved with these meetings, but W stopped having me go when she left.
Why would you need her approval/permission to go to YOUR stepson's IEP?? Just go. Is there some issue as to your role in his life?
W decided that she wanted me to go to this one, which seems to indicate that she is welcoming my involvement in SS's life again. It was 2 1/2 hours of listening and fighting with school administrators about how they are not meeting SS's needs. This is another story, but the point is that I took the point bc I am a lawyer and have become familiar with the laws protecting children with IEPs. W is at her wits end with the schools and is under a tremendous amount of stress just trying to get her son an education.
After this meeting, W and I had to rush to our MC session. I told MC that I was feeling a bit down bc I don't have any security in the R with W. That I am trying to be patient and understanding, but that it has been wearing on me.
W listened to what I had to say and then went into how she is hesitant about what is going on with us. How she has not had time to process everything. That the past several weeks has been a whirlwind for her. How she doesn't feel that she has let herself really think about what is going on... that she has just let herself get caught up in spending time with me, which she has enjoyed. But that she has recently (past few days) been thinking that she isn't sure about anything and needs to process her feelings.
MC looked at me and said, 'you must feel like you don't know what you should do. Damned if you do, damned if you don't'. I agreed by saying that I feel like W is saying that I am smothering her, but that if I back off, then I will appear to be the same guy that she left.
In response, W said that she was not saying that I was smothering her. That she understands the 'damned if I do, damned if I don't' feeling. That what she is saying is that she just feels that she needs to take the time to process things, not that I need to do anything differently. MC even asked her, 'what do you want Denver to do?' W said that she didn't want me to do anything different.
Very confusing stuff.
In the course of all of this, the subject of the OM came up. W told MC that part of the hesitancy that she feels comes across when she asks herself 'why give Denver another chance?'. She said that she wonders if she is making the right decision to take a risk on me, and leave behind the chance with OM who treated her and SS so well. That sometimes, she feels torn.
But... that I feel like home to her... that she has always loved me... that she has invested 8 years in us and feels that she should give us a chance to work now that I have made so many substantial changes.
Your changes, over time, will = change she can trust is real. Do it for you, not for her or as a tactic to get her. She'll want to be with the finished product of Denver, b/c she'd hate the idea that she got you in rough draft form and the final version was the improved cool Denver/everything she's wanted in a man, etc...all for some OW?? Hmmm, not so fun for her to lose you then.
W also said that she feels like she is getting to know a completely different person (me) with all of my changes. And that she thinks that she is different too. That even though things were not good bw us before she left, that there was something that seemed to work with our R the way that it was. That she wonders if it will work now that we have both changed. (TALK ABOUT DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T!)
I was upset after the MC session and was very quiet on the drive home. I apologized for being quiet and W said that she understood that I was hurt by some of the things that were said.
When we got home, we talked for about 20 minutes before she got in her car and left. She reiterated that she does not feel like I am smothering her and that she just wants me to be myself and continue doing the things that I am doing... no changes as far as contact etc.
She brought up that she just isn't sure about moving back into the house at the end of May (when her lease is up). That she feels that maybe she is rushing things for both her and SS. That she had conversation with SS and that SS is also unsure about moving back in. That SS wants to move in bc he loves me and bc I have been in his life for a long time. But that he also likes the idea of it being just him and W. And also became close to OM and so doesn't understand why OM can't be in his life if I am.
We talked about the wall that W has up with me and how she is having a hard time letting it down. I told her that is why I suspected that she has a difficult time telling me that she loves me when I say it to her. She said that is right.
I told W that I was upset bc it seemed that this night was a step back for 'us'. She said that she didn't look at it that way. That she thought it was just part of the process.
Lastly, we talked about her moving back into the house. She said she just can't see herself moving back into the house. That it is different for her bc she moved out, I didn't. That she started a new life and it is just 'weird' for her. But, then she said that sometimes she can see herself moving back in. She has considered maybe we could sleep in different beds for a while... and she has considered that maybe she could get a cheaper place on a month to month lease for a while. I told her that I would accept whatever she decides and that I am going to be patient. I even asked her if she wanted to go look for apartment... that I would help her. She said 'no' that she is just leaving the option open for now.
I was had planned on hanging out with SS while W was at her show. W's friend was suppose to go up with her.
SS ended up being invited to spend the night at one of his friend's house... and W's friend backed out of going with her. W texted me and asked, "do you want to go?" ... I responded, "do you want me to go?"
Why ask this? Assume an adult woman who invites you somewhere, by definition, wants you there. Take her at her word.
... W said 'sure!' ... I then said, "just want to make sure that you want me to go. I feel paranoid about smothering you." W responded, 'pick you up at 9?' ... I said, 'sounds good'...
You are Not coming off as a strong confident man, sorry...
W had considered it as a possibility at the time, but didn't bring it up, so neither did I. So I responded, 'I did, but you never brought it up. And besides, you won't even stay with me at our house' ... I kind of laughed when I said this. W said, 'I know. I won't stay in our house as a guest. I just won't. It seems weird. Like I am just some girl that you met.'.... I said, 'but you are not just some girl... you are my W... It is not weird for me at all... but I also understand how you feel.'
Then, somehow, we got into conversation about her moving back into the home.
AGAIN??? OMG...
W told me again, but this time with a little more certainty, that she just doesn't think that she will be ready to move back into the home by the end of May. I again told her that was fine if that's what she decided.
THEN SHE'S NOT READY...OBVIOUSLY...she's being very clear.
No more R talk on Saturday night. W had her show and we drove home. Good conversation.
Today...
Had lunch.
[/b]
For some reason, I was again extremely bothered as we sat and ate. I got really quiet bc I was just thinking about everything that W has said over the past week.
You have got to be upbeat around her. Not a drag, not coming to the table with all your needs and fears...fake it til you make it if you have to. Sounds gimmicky but it can work wonders. Plus, I think where the head goes, the heart will follow.
After we ate, SS went outside the restaurant to do what 12 year old boys do... lol... W turned to me and said, 'you are acting weird'. I said, 'just quiet'. W then says, 'we have too much of this.' I said, 'what do you mean?' ... W: 'this was always part of our problem... we'd sit and just not say anything to one another... I don't want this to be my life' ...
I can understand her feeling that way. Can you? All your contact with her is consumed by your needs for reassurance she doesn't yet feel. And that is a turn off.
I immediately realized that I had reverted into some bad behavior. I apologized. I then told W that I was just upset and that i was feeling impatient with things. We talked a little, but W was clear upset and maybe even a little irritated. She began to tear up at one point. This was clearly bc she is confused about how she feels and is feeling pressured about making some decision on our M/R. I apologized again ... told her that I know that my impatience was about me... that I know that this is not going to happen on my timeline ... She told me that I hadn't done anything wrong, but that she just isn't sure about things. I'm obviously paraphrasing a lot here.
I took W and SS back to where they are living and went home.
W called a little later to tell me that she wasn't mad.
OMG--YET MORE R TALK!!??? JUST "BE" FOR AWHILE. NO ANALYZING...I'm worn out reading this, and can't imagine living it....BACK OFF!
We spoke for about 90 minutes. W again talked about not being sure about what she is doing. That things have happened so fast. That she feels that she is rushing herself with her lease ending in May. That she is still processing.
...There was lots of talk about OM That she just isn't sure.
This conversation was very hurtful to me, so it is very much a blur. At one point, I told W that maybe we should just take some time apart and not talk so that she can figure things out... W kind of just ignored this suggestion.
That was anothor opportunity for you to get off the phone and give her some space. Delay the move in, clearly.
At another point, I told W that maybe she should just reengage OM and figure out what she wants to do with that R before we consider anything else bw she and I.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? WOW...
I told W that it seemed that she is reluctant to completely let go of her 'plan B' and that as long as that was there, it was going to be very hard for us to move forward. Again, W just kind of ignored the suggestion.
IT'S OBVIOUS SHE'S RELUCTANT, TO SAY THE LEAST...
At the end of the conversation, I asked W if she wanted me to do anything differently, if she wanted me to stop calling and hanging out. She laughed a little and said 'no... that she had already told me that I am not doing anything wrong.' VERY F'ing Confusing.
NOT CONFUSING TO ME...BACK OFF, BACK OFF, STOP TALKING. STOP THE TALKING AND JUST CHANGE INTO WHO YOU NEED TO BE. BE A MAN ONLY A FOOL WOULD LEAVE. AND NO MORE R TALK FOR AT LEAST 90 DAYS and even then, don't you be the one to initiate it...
Jumping back in the conversation a bit... W told me that sometimes she can't believe that my changes are for real and wonders what will happen after my 'challenge' of getting her back is gone... if I will go back to being the way that I was. I told her that this won't happen bc my changes have been for me. Bc I decided months ago that I don't want to live my life as I was living it before she left.
Just show her this. Stop talking about it...OMG please no more R talk and talk of your changes IS R Talk and it's more pursuit. Can you see that?
I asked her if she had watched MWD's video on the WAW that I sent her a month or so ago. She said that she had and that it seemed like it was almost dead on with what happened with us. But her question was how WAW's who give their H's a chance to show the significant changes that can happen do it.
More pursuit...(sigh....)Why ask her anything about the film you gave her, which itself was pursuit??
W went on to say how she had to push her 'in love' feeling so far down in order to gain the strength to leave, that she doesn't know how to get those back. She wonders if WAW's who return to their M's get those feelings back or just accept that they are gone and then just end up being unhappy anyway...
I asked W what made her fall in love me 8 years ago. She told me that it was how I made her feel safe, my smile, and that I made her laugh. I then asked her if I no longer have a nice smile... jokingly.
MORE R TALK...MORE PURSUIT...AND HOW'S IT WORKING FOR YOU?? OH it's not. So you do it again and again b/c maybe now this day, with the barometric pressure as it is, and it's Tuesday, so maybe NOW she'll want back in...????
I told her that I will be fine however this turns out.
wish that were believable.
That I still viewed her leaving me as the best thing that has ever happened... to me and for our M. That I now know how to love and be loved, know that I want to be married, and that I think that I know how to be a good H. That if it is not with her, that it will be with someone else. I reiterated that I wanted desparately for it to be with W, but that I will be okay either way.
W then said that she doesn't know how to take that... that in one way it sounds like I don't need her in my life.
OMG PLEASE, JUST STOP TALKING TO HER ABOUT WHERE YOU ARE IN A GIVEN MOMENT IN TIME...
I said that wasn't the case, that I do need and want her in my life. But that I know what I want and am going to find it if she decides that things aren't going to work for us.
I told W that I believe that we have an opportunity that most couples do not...
This is when I asked w if she wanted me to stop contacting her and she laughed and said that she didn't want me to change anything.
W said, 'I think that we just need to keep having these conversations'.
NO YOU DON'T.
So, the bottom line is W is struggling with letting OM go completely bc she is unsure about whether we can make our M work. She is not in love with me right now, and wonders if she can find the place BLAH BLAH BLAH. LOVE IS AT LEAST PARTLY A CHOICE....IT'S NOT A WHIM OR A BRANCH THAT FALLS ON YOUR HEAD AND LANDS ON YOUR LIFE...
Bottom line is for me... I am frustrated and impatient.
IT SHOWS...AND IT'S NOT A 180 AT ALL...IT IS MORE OF THE SAME...
I am beginning to wonder if this is worth it.
IF YOU GAVE REAL DBing a chance you could find out. But you don't. You repeat the same mistakes a lot. A whole lot. Back off. Back off. Back off...
And I am confused.
it shows.
W spends time with me almost every day. She says that she enjoys talking to me and spending that time with me. That she fears losing me if she makes the wrong decision. That she loves me and always has... and that I feel like 'home' to her.
SHE HAS TO FEAR LOSING YOU AND YOU ARE NOT GIVING HER THAT CHANCE. YOU ARE SO AVAILABLE AND CONSTANTLY TAKING THE TEMPERATURE OF THE M/R THAT SHE HAS NO CHANCE TO SENSE WHAT SHE MIGHT LOSE...THIS IS A NO BRAINER. BACK OFF. LET HER WONDER WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOU. LET HER FEAR THAT SHE MAY NOT HAVE FOREVER TO WAIT FOR "FEELINGS" TO RETURN...HAVE SOME MYSTERY IN YOUR LIFE. WHAT ARE YOUR GAL ACTIVITIES? WHAT ARE THE 180'S??
I just don't know friends... I am emotionally exhausted... I am sad ... and there is a part of me that feels like giving up. I have a huge trial where a man's life is at stake in 1 week and all I want to do is crawl into bed, cry and sleep.
Sorry that this post isn't the 'inspiration' that it has been in recent weeks... and I'm sorry that I am not going to go back and edit it...
BITS
Denver
HOPE THIS HELPS...
So at what point does patience equate to wasting my life away?
When
you waste your time.
What Jack3 said, what Mach said, and what Country song said about you and your journey. Enough about the results. NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH OUR M's...
ever.... no guarantees...
EVER...but get out of self imposed limbo/hell and live your life well. That's attractive, and if she doesn't come back, you'll have moved on that much faster. If she notices it, I think, she'll be wondering about her loss of you.
When she wants back in, she will be clear. NOT fuzzy. Just make sure when she sees you, the changes are there. It's harder to convince her of your changes when she sees you every day. IT's actually easier to show change with a little time apart. Make sense? You are getting good advice here. Take it, or not. But choose. Are you going to DB or not?
SHE HAS TO FEAR LOSING YOU AND YOU ARE NOT GIVING HER THAT CHANCE. YOU ARE SO AVAILABLE AND CONSTANTLY TAKING THE TEMPERATURE OF THE M/R THAT SHE HAS NO CHANCE TO SENSE WHAT SHE MIGHT LOSE...THIS IS A NO BRAINER. BACK OFF. LET HER WONDER WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOU. LET HER FEAR THAT SHE MAY NOT HAVE FOREVER TO WAIT FOR "FEELINGS" TO RETURN...
Denver:
Sound familiar? You are more in control of this thing than you think. You are frustrated? Well let me invite you to this little group, invitation only, called BITS, oh wait you are already a member.
Unconditional love is very, very difficult to give to another... but it is also very, very difficult to walk away from.
Somebody posted this on my thread, can’t remember who but they were right. Take some stock Denver but you are a better man with or without W!!
It's harder to convince her of your changes when she sees you every day. IT's actually easier to show change with a little time apart. Make sense?
I think so 25. Thanks for taking a look at my situation.
BITS
Denver
However, she said that the one thing that the video does not talk about is if or when the WAW ever begins to feel 'in love' with the LBS again. She wonders if these WAW's who end up giving their LBS's a second chance just end up being unhappy anyway, even though their S's have changed and become the S that they always wanted them to be. That is one of her fear's. She says for her anyway, she buried her 'in love' feelings for me so deep in order to gain the strength to leave me, that she does not know if she can find them again.
OK, seriously, are you sure we're not married to the same person? They must be reading the same books or something because I have heard this exact sentence.
My response was actually that I did not expect things to instantly get better like we had flipped a light switch or something. And then I validated as much as I possibly could, spoke to the inner strength that she was rediscovering in herself, and acknowledged my part in her suppressing things and bottling up her emotions because of my reactions.
I know you're aware of a lot of the mistakes I've made over the last couple months, but I feel like this particular convo was not one of them. One of my better moments IMO.
Not sure if it helps or not, just my 2 cents.
Thanks 2Step. I know that you are right... er, that I was right when I posted that on your thread. Whatever. It is good advice.
Thanks man.
BITS
Denver
You asked me to look at your thread. So I did. Put a helmet on b/c some 2 x 4's are coming your way.
Thanks for taking the time to read my thread 25. I appreciate the 2x4s and agree with you completely. I responded to some of your specific remarks below.
Why would you need her approval/permission to go to YOUR stepson's IEP?? Just go. Is there some issue as to your role in his life?
Hmmm... well I haven't adopted SS so I don't think that I have any legal right to be there. Haven't really thought about or researched it.
Your changes, over time, will = change she can trust is real. Do it for you, not for her or as a tactic to get her. She'll want to be with the finished product of Denver, b/c she'd hate the idea that she got you in rough draft form and the final version was the improved cool Denver/everything she's wanted in a man, etc...all for some OW?? Hmmm, not so fun for her to lose you then.
I have tried to be consistent with showing her my changes, which have sincerely been for me, but I think that these changes have also made me appear to be too available to her. I will explain more below.
You are Not coming off as a strong confident man, sorry...
Agreed.
THEN SHE'S NOT READY...OBVIOUSLY...she's being very clear.
Agreed.
You have got to be upbeat around her. Not a drag, not coming to the table with all your needs and fears...fake it til you make it if you have to. Sounds gimmicky but it can work wonders. Plus, I think where the head goes, the heart will follow.
No, this makes perfect sense. In fact, it is what got her to consider reconciling with me back in February in the first place. More on this below.
I can understand her feeling that way. Can you? All your contact with her is consumed by your needs for reassurance she doesn't yet feel. And that is a turn off.
Yep. I didn't see this in the grand scheme of things until you narrowed it all down here with this post. We've had so much contact over the past 3 months that it seemed that we only had minimal R talk and that I only presented myself as needing reassurance on a few occasions. But as I read this, I have done significant damage to my sitch.
OMG--YET MORE R TALK!!??? JUST "BE" FOR AWHILE. NO ANALYZING...I'm worn out reading this, and can't imagine living it....BACK OFF!
I'm going to 25.
That was anothor opportunity for you to get off the phone and give her some space. Delay the move in, clearly.
It is delayed. She just told the landlord of her current place, a place she can nowhere near afford, that she wants to go month to month for a while.
WHAT ARE YOU DOING??? WOW...
I recognized this as it was coming out of my mouth. Trust me.
NOT CONFUSING TO ME...BACK OFF, BACK OFF, STOP TALKING. STOP THE TALKING AND JUST CHANGE INTO WHO YOU NEED TO BE. BE A MAN ONLY A FOOL WOULD LEAVE. AND NO MORE R TALK FOR AT LEAST 90 DAYS and even then, don't you be the one to initiate it...
I will follow this as long as things don't slip further during the next 90 days. I may have to have a conversation with her before then if contact with OM increases. I'm going to post about my strategy going forward in a bit. But you are correct about backing off and stopping the R talk.
wish that were believable.
Well, I do believe that it is true. Look, I realize that what you have commented on here was not me at my DB best so to speak. More on this below. But my 180s have been for me to learn how to be a better H, how to be more attentive to my W's needs, and how to not take life so seriously. For the most part, I really feel that I am accomplishing this... My W herself has acknowledged that she has noticed this time and time again... but
clearly I have slipped in that I have not been able to apply these changes to my R with my W when things started to backslide.
IF YOU GAVE REAL DBing a chance you could find out. But you don't. You repeat the same mistakes a lot. A whole lot. Back off. Back off. Back off...
I have repeated the same mistakes quite a bit over the past month. That is true.
SHE HAS TO FEAR LOSING YOU AND YOU ARE NOT GIVING HER THAT CHANCE. YOU ARE SO AVAILABLE AND CONSTANTLY TAKING THE TEMPERATURE OF THE M/R THAT SHE HAS NO CHANCE TO SENSE WHAT SHE MIGHT LOSE...THIS IS A NO BRAINER. BACK OFF. LET HER WONDER WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOU. LET HER FEAR THAT SHE MAY NOT HAVE FOREVER TO WAIT FOR "FEELINGS" TO RETURN...HAVE SOME MYSTERY IN YOUR LIFE. WHAT ARE YOUR GAL ACTIVITIES? WHAT ARE THE 180'S??
This is what worked for me in Dec, Jan, and Feb... why did it change? See below...
Okay 25, LOL, I deserve that. I really do. And I know that you haven't read my thread from the its beginning back in December. So I feel that I need explain why this happened. Not as justification so much as to get myself centered and focused again. To understand why I've slipped off the ledge so much over the past month.
See, I feel that I did a pretty bang up job DBing my sitch from December through February. My W was DONE when she left at the end of November. She had no intentions of ever coming back to me.
When I found DB, I really focused on finding out where I had messed up and why I had messed up. I went to IC and feel like I did lot of self reflection both there and on my own. I did GAL and my 180s have been good... they have been noticed by my W. Back in February she commented that she was being convinced that they were real not bc of my words, but bc of the 'energy' that she was getting from me.
So W develops a R with OM. But, as she has told me since, she began to see me in a new light in mid January. And this caused her to wonder if she was making the right decision. So she began to have more and more contact with me. Not with me initiating... but on her own. By the beginning of February, she was asking me why I hadn't tried to fix things or even brought up a conversation about fixing things. Well, the answer to that was because I was DBing. Hardcore DBing.
So in February we began to hang out more, and she began to distance herself from OM some (she ended their physical R in January). She invited me to go to Buffalo with her at the beginning of March for her grandmother's funeral. We had a really good time together (not the funeral, but the trip in general).
A couple of weeks after we returned, she cut off contact with OM completely and committed to going to MC with me. And not with me asking her... she knew I wanted to go when she was ready... and when she was, she told me.
So mid March came... and
here is where I made a critical error. I believed that we had moved to the piecing stage.
What this meant for me was that I needed to be the H that she had always wanted me to be. I was very loving, very affectionate, I made time for her, I told her that I loved her (and she even returned that a few times)... I acted the opposite of the way that I did that caused her to leave me in the first place. This meant that I could no longer be unavailable to her... and she noticed all of it... and seemed to be impressed. At our 1st of 2 MC sessions, she even told the MC that she believed that I had really changed... and that she wanted M to work.
But... what I didn't expect, or see, was that she had moved to quickly. That emotionally she was not ready. She had cut off contact with OM, whom she has nothing bad to say about, and fully committed to a M that she had believed was dead not 6 weeks before.
And here I was basically smothering her with all of the pent up love that I had inside of me from the past 3+ months of being away from her and believing that I had lost her for good.
Where was OM? He was not contacting her and when he did, he acted very hurt by her decision. W told me at the beginning of April that she felt guilt over that.
Clearly, W was not ready to piece, had not dealt with the anger and resentment towards me that caused her to leave in the first place, and had not dealt with her feelings for OM.
BUT I was there ... and had stopped doing some of the DB things that got me there in the first place. OM was DBing in a sense without even knowing it.
Actually writing this out has helped me understand where I have messed up. But I think that it also may give you an understanding why I have been DBing so terribly over the past month. Here I was thinking that I was piecing ... and when I sensed that slipping, I panicked.
Okay... No more. It's back to some of the basics.
THANKS 25.
BITS
Denver
Strategy moving forward... refocusing.
I had a conversation with a good friend of mine who is familiar with DB. He/she was very helpful in getting myself refocused. This may be a bit stream of conscience, so I apologize. The purpose is to get this straight in my head and have it in writing so that I can refer to it.
1. OM does not matter. He wins if I let him. That means if I let his presence in my situation get to me, he wins. I cannot show W that I am bothered if she tells me that she has or is going to have contact with OM. I cannot control whether or not W chooses to have contact with him. I need to accept that. He wins ONLY IF I LET HIM.
2. Back off - Reduce amount of initiating contact with W. Don't always answer her phone calls immediately. Do always answer her text messages right away. Don't jump to hang out with her all of the time.
3. Continue to show W new me - Continue to listen and validate W. Continue to be attentive and loving. Without telling her that I love her. Continue to actually actively listen to what W talks about. Continue to be fun to be around... be in a good mood... don't be a downer... be available to W and SS, but not too available. If needed, fake it till I make it. Act AS IF.
4. Do not talk about OM. Do not bring it up. Ignore it. see #1. Under no circumstances talk negatively about OM. Do not put them on the same team. Do not put W in defensive posture about OM.
5. Do not talk about R unless W brings it up. And if she does, THEN do way more listening than talking. listen and validate, listen and validate.
6. Eliminate expectations. Don't be upset if W does not invite me to do things. do not be upset if she declines invites from me. If I do something nice for her, do it bc I want to, not bc I have an expectation of something or some reaction in return.
7. Do not be doormat - I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.
8. Lovingly detach to a degree - self protection mechanism. For numbers 1, 4 and 6. Focus, focus, focus. I cannot control my W, her decisions, her actions, thoughts or feelings. I control only me. BUT, I love my W without conditions... so accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey. None of it can kill me... I will be okay regardless. AND, I do not have to stay in this unless I choose to. I have a parachute that I can use at any time.
9. Start to GAL again. My life cannot be all about my W and SS. GAL to make myself happy and to create some mystery about myself.
10. Be the better man. I am better than the OM... no question. But that is not what is most important. I must be better than the old me. Be focused on improving myself, how I react to things, how I live my life on a daily basis. Be happy.
11. Continue to create confusion in my W about her initial decision. When my W left, she was DONE. DBing has allowed me to get her to a point of confusion on that initial decision. This has, and continues to be, a good thing. I do this by continuing with my 180's and being the better man.
12. Be Patient. Patience is a virtue. I am learning it and it will be useful to me in the future regardless of how this turns out.
13. Time is still my friend. Even though I have been knocked down the mountain a bit, my W is still closer to reconciling than I ever thought that she would be back in November, December and January. I am still married and no paperwork has even been filed.
14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr. I must continue being patient and giving this time. And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me... she has seen if for 3+ months. She needs to see more of it. BUT, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her. When she must be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me... This conversation must be done nicely and with love. Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me, OM, or to SS. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation. That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long.
------------
Brief update.
Contacted my W on Monday. Asked her how the dinner went with OM. She said a fine and a little weird. Not sure what she meant about weird bc then she went on to tell me that he received message while they were eating that his father had passed away. I asked her how OM's father died. She explained that he had cancer and that he had been in a bad way for a while. She told me that she has never met any of OM's family and didn't know much about the situation. I told her that I felt badly that OM's dad had died and that she could pass along my condolences if she wanted to.
We chit chatted a bit more about SS and his homework. I told her that I needed to finish up some science homework that he and I had been working on last week. She told me to call him later to see if he wanted to do it.
I called later. SS didn't want to do his homework (no surprise). W said that she was going to watch a movie with SS and then do some work. I offered to take her dinner. She accepted.
I went to W's house with some dinner. We hung out for about an hour. I acted as if I was completely fine and cheerful. No more talk of OM or R.
Today - I began new approach to situation as described above. I did not initiate contact with W. W texted me to ask me about some mother's day plans that I made for us and her mom. I did not respond to the text. 8 minutes later she called... I ignored the call.
I went to the gym. When I left, I noticed that she had texted me again, 'call when you can'.
On my way home, I called W back and acted as if I was cheerful.
W told me that she had to change the mother's day plans that I had made bc her brother, who is in town from Korea this week, wanted to do it later. She said that is why she was trying to get a hold of me. She did not ask where I was during the 2 hours that she could not get hold of me.
W then told me that she got news that one of her former students from when she was student teaching had committed suicide last night. She was upset about it, as was I bc I had met the girl.
W said that we'd talk more about the changes to our Mother's day plans.... 'if not tonight, then tomorrow.' I said okay.
We did not talk tonight.
BITS
Denver
[quote=Denver_2010]Strategy moving forward... refocusing.
I had a conversation with a good friend of mine who is familiar with DB. He/she was very helpful in getting myself refocused. This may be a bit stream of conscience, so I apologize. The purpose is to get this straight in my head and have it in writing so that I can refer to it.
1. OM does not matter. He wins if I let him. That means if I let his presence in my situation get to me, he wins. I cannot show W that I am bothered if she tells me that she has or is going to have contact with OM. I cannot control whether or not W chooses to have contact with him. I need to accept that. He wins ONLY IF I LET HIM.
I was going down your list and liking it and wanted to highlight the above. Then I saw the "update" and realized this is a whole lot of TALK to you so far. No matter what you write down here, your behaviors revert over and over. I hope you are realizing how you have NOT been doing what you need to do OR what you say you will do. Period. I can't say why b/c you SAY all the right things and then you DO the wrong things...on the same post I see a 180 from your 180, which is ZERO movement...I realize you posted the updates and then updated them again, as in as of TODAY..but if you think you will notice significant changes in your w's behavior any time soon, DON'T. You won't. It will take TIME and when you say you are working on being patient, then stop the expectations, (see below) 2. Back off - Reduce amount of initiating contact with W. Don't always answer her phone calls immediately. Do always answer her text messages right away. Don't jump to hang out with her all of the time.
3. Continue to show W new me - Continue to listen and validate W. Continue to be attentive and loving. Without telling her that I love her. Continue to actually actively listen to what W talks about. Continue to be fun to be around... be in a good mood... don't be a downer... be available to W and SS, but not too available. If needed, fake it till I make it. Act AS IF.
4. Do not talk about OM. Do not bring it up. Ignore it. see #1. Under no circumstances talk negatively about OM. Do not put them on the same team. Do not put W in defensive posture about OM.
5. Do not talk about R unless W brings it up. And if she does, THEN do way more listening than talking. listen and validate, listen and validate.
6. Eliminate expectations. Don't be upset if W does not invite me to do things. do not be upset if she declines invites from me. If I do something nice for her, do it bc I want to, not bc I have an expectation of something or some reaction in return.
7. Do not be doormat - I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.
8. Lovingly detach to a degree - self protection mechanism. For numbers 1, 4 and 6. Focus, focus, focus. I cannot control my W, her decisions, her actions, thoughts or feelings. I control only me. BUT, I love my W without conditions... so accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey. None of it can kill me... I will be okay regardless. AND, I do not have to stay in this unless I choose to. I have a parachute that I can use at any time.
9. Start to GAL again. My life cannot be all about my W and SS. GAL to make myself happy and to create some mystery about myself.
10. Be the better man. I am better than the OM... no question. But that is not what is most important. I must be better than the old me. Be focused on improving myself, how I react to things, how I live my life on a daily basis. Be happy.
11. Continue to create confusion in my W about her initial decision. When my W left, she was DONE. DBing has allowed me to get her to a point of confusion on that initial decision. This has, and continues to be, a good thing. I do this by continuing with my 180's and being the better man.
12. Be Patient. Patience is a virtue. I am learning it and it will be useful to me in the future regardless of how this turns out.
13. Time is still my friend. Even though I have been knocked down the mountain a bit, my W is still closer to reconciling than I ever thought that she would be back in November, December and January. I am still married and no paperwork has even been filed.
14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr. I must continue being patient and giving this time. And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me... she has seen if for 3+ months. She needs to see more of it. BUT, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her. When she must be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me... This conversation must be done nicely and with love. Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me, OM, or to SS. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation. That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long.
GREAT TO DO LIST ------------
BUT YOU HAVE TO DO IT, FOR GOOD. THIS IS THE NEW YOU- SO YOU CANNOT MEASURE AND CHECK FOR "RESULTS" ANYTIME SOON. THIS ISN'T A "TACTIC"...REMEMBER?Brief update.
Contacted my W on Monday. Asked her how the dinner went with OM.
WHY, DEAR GOD, WHY DID YOU ASK HER ANYTHING ABOUT OM? THIS IS THE SAME OM YOU JUST SAID DOES NOT MATTER? THIS WAS THE "OLD" YOU? UM, OKAY...
She said a fine and a little weird. Not sure what she meant about weird bc then she went on to tell me that he received message while they were eating that his father had passed away.
Geez, you should spend a LOT of energy wondering what she meant by that word..."weird"...keep staring at it. Keep your focus on THAT and not on you or your new life...SO NOW can you see how you have been doing the opposite of what you have on your "to do" list?
I asked her how OM's father died. She explained that he had cancer and that he had been in a bad way for a while. She told me that she has never met any of OM's family and didn't know much about the situation. I told her that I felt badly that OM's dad had died and that she could
pass along my condolences if she wanted to. What?? 
I'm shaking my head. You are sooo...back and forth, no wonder she doesn't trust the "changes"...
We chit chatted ----
I went to W's house with some dinner. We hung out for about an hour. I acted as if I was completely fine and cheerful. No more talk of OM or R.
Today - I began new approach to situation as described above. I did not initiate contact with W. W texted me to ask me about some mother's day plans that I made for us and her mom. I did not respond to the text. 8 minutes later she called... I ignored the call.
I went to the gym. When I left, I noticed that she had texted me again, 'call when you can'.
On my way home, I called W back and
acted as if I was cheerful.
Welcome to the Drama Club of DBing...trust me, we all know it's hard. I should win an Oscar for how I sounded on the phone. At least a dozen times I had prayed or had a DB session moments before h called and he said "you sound great!" I wasn't "great" at all. I was faking it til I made it and you know, it worked. Seriously, the more upbeat I was, the more h wanted to hear about things with the kids and fun stuff at home..."sunny and warm HERE..." which contrasted with the life he had started to create for himself. After a long LONG time, he sensed that I was nearly detached totally. And he woke up. Began calling daily, sometimes several times. Began asking me to join him, then said "begging" me to come up and then wanted to prove that he "could be the h I deserved", wanted a chance to become that h for me... he was very clear with his feelings. After several months of this, I said "yes we can try" and the piecing began. Being upbeat was the opposite of how I felt, but it was also what worked.
W told me that she had to change the mother's day plans that I had made bc her brother, who is in town from Korea this week, wanted to do it later. She said that is why she was trying to get a hold of me.
She did not ask where I was during the 2 hours that she could not get hold of me. So what?? Don't monitor her reactions now. You're a long way from the time you need to do that. Can you just be the new you and NOT monitor or check on anything, for say, 100 days? Can you commit to not checking over your shoulders for that long? I think you may need to renew that in 100 days but at least do it for that long without monitoring. The monitoring sort of negates a lot of the forward progress. 100 days... It's not that long. But it's a minimum if you want her to notice AND trust the changes AND you need to stop the monitoring anyhow, for your sanity. Won't it be great when SHE reacts in a new positive way and makes you notice it, instead of you having her behavior under the microscope 24/7??Do your "to do" list and stay at it. It's a great action plan for living well. If you do it, there's no way you'll have regrets. You have clarity now. So all you need is the diligence to follow it. Be a little brave and stick to it. The pursuing and obsessing has harmed your cause, so don't keep doing what doesn't work. You're smart enough to know this now. You can make your list a bit shorter/briefer and carry it around with you if you like. I did. I taped some music for my "theme" song and kept myself motivated with all the gimmicky ways I could. It helped. It worked. That's all that matters.
25yearsmlc I really admire your advice... I hope I'm not out of line for asking... Can you stop by my thread and give me some input... I'm a bit lost in my current situation and no idea what to do at this point.
where is your thread or the start of it? Sometimes when I have to hunt it down it's really time consuming. But I will when I get a chance, if you target the search it helps!
Denver
First of all 25 is dead on. Listen and it looks like you have.
That is one wise friend you talked to
.
And a good list you have made. I made such a list too.
The hardest things is to LIVE it every single day.
You have reached a point where most people say:
"I didn't get what I wanted and she is treating me like a doormat. I will not be disrespected this way!"
I have said many times. You are a doormat if you think you are a doormat. Walking away because you believe you are a doormat doesn't change that. It reinforces it.
Walking away because your W is disrespecting you doesn't change the fact that you feel disrespected. It reinforces it.
Being responsible for yourself. Living your life for what YOU want takes a lot more courage and is the fire in which the steel is forged (nickel J3B and Helen Keller).
It is easy to walk through hell knowing what you seek will be given to you on the other side.
Harder when you are not guaranteed it.
Which man are you? Which man do you aspire to be?
Which man can walk on from this in his life without regrets if his M is not saved?
You must face your biggest fear to achieve your goal here Denver and know that whatever the outcome, there is no other way to get to your goal if you truly understand what it is.
Ha ha I was going to ask 25 to check out my threads also.
Denver, 25 gave you excellent advice. Listen to it.
I know it's hard. We all know it's hard, but I firmly believe you CAN do this.
A lot of the things 25 said I could apply to my sitch as well.
Excellent, excellent advice.
I would ask 25 too look at my sitch too, but I think by reading what she has written, I have more than enough to apply to my sitch. Thanks
Denver, you have a lot of work to do, but don't let that discourage you. You made great progress, jus remember where you were at when you started
------------
Brief update.
Contacted my W on Monday. Asked her how the dinner went with OM. . . .
Oh good lord . . .
You still don't get it, Denver.
Starsky
A couple of weeks after we returned, she cut off contact with OM completely and committed to going to MC with me. And not with me asking her... she knew I wanted to go when she was ready... and when she was, she told me.
So mid March came... and here is where I made a critical error. I believed that we had moved to the piecing stage.
Denver,
I am not taking anything away from this most awesome night.
Controlling emotions is usually preached for bad ones, anger and such, but its also for the good ones.
Don't gloat.
You know how to kill a vampire?
Stake in the heart, cut the head off, fill the mouth with Holy Communion, Burn the body, gather the ashes and drop them into a body of running water.
Stake in the heart isn't the time to gloat.
I want you to consider this.
Your W said that OM was going to back off while you both figured this out.
Don't trust this guy to play nice and follow rules.
Cause they guy who decked out your wife's place on Valentines Day, ain't the guy giving her space while she figures this out.
Be mindful, and if you underestimate your enemy, it will cost you.
_________________________
It would appear that this was prophetic. ^
It seems to me, from your "To-Do" list above,
that you are STILL underestimating the threat that this man poses to your marriage.Just my opinion.
Starsky
Strategy moving forward... refocusing.
I had a conversation with a good friend of mine who is familiar with DB. He/she was very helpful in getting myself refocused. This may be a bit stream of conscience, so I apologize. The purpose is to get this straight in my head and have it in writing so that I can refer to it.
1. OM does not matter. He wins if I let him. That means if I let his presence in my situation get to me, he wins. I cannot show W that I am bothered if she tells me that she has or is going to have contact with OM. I cannot control whether or not W chooses to have contact with him. I need to accept that. He wins ONLY IF I LET HIM.
2. Back off - Reduce amount of initiating contact with W. Don't always answer her phone calls immediately. Do always answer her text messages right away. Don't jump to hang out with her all of the time.
3. Continue to show W new me - Continue to listen and validate W. Continue to be attentive and loving. Without telling her that I love her. Continue to actually actively listen to what W talks about. Continue to be fun to be around... be in a good mood... don't be a downer... be available to W and SS, but not too available. If needed, fake it till I make it. Act AS IF.
4. Do not talk about OM. Do not bring it up. Ignore it. see #1. Under no circumstances talk negatively about OM. Do not put them on the same team. Do not put W in defensive posture about OM.
5. Do not talk about R unless W brings it up. And if she does, THEN do way more listening than talking. listen and validate, listen and validate.
6. Eliminate expectations. Don't be upset if W does not invite me to do things. do not be upset if she declines invites from me. If I do something nice for her, do it bc I want to, not bc I have an expectation of something or some reaction in return.
7. Do not be doormat - I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.
8. Lovingly detach to a degree - self protection mechanism. For numbers 1, 4 and 6. Focus, focus, focus. I cannot control my W, her decisions, her actions, thoughts or feelings. I control only me. BUT, I love my W without conditions... so accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey. None of it can kill me... I will be okay regardless. AND, I do not have to stay in this unless I choose to. I have a parachute that I can use at any time.
9. Start to GAL again. My life cannot be all about my W and SS. GAL to make myself happy and to create some mystery about myself.
10. Be the better man. I am better than the OM... no question. But that is not what is most important. I must be better than the old me. Be focused on improving myself, how I react to things, how I live my life on a daily basis. Be happy.
11. Continue to create confusion in my W about her initial decision. When my W left, she was DONE. DBing has allowed me to get her to a point of confusion on that initial decision. This has, and continues to be, a good thing. I do this by continuing with my 180's and being the better man.
12. Be Patient. Patience is a virtue. I am learning it and it will be useful to me in the future regardless of how this turns out.
13. Time is still my friend. Even though I have been knocked down the mountain a bit, my W is still closer to reconciling than I ever thought that she would be back in November, December and January. I am still married and no paperwork has even been filed.
14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr. I must continue being patient and giving this time. And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me... she has seen if for 3+ months. She needs to see more of it. BUT, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her. When she must be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me... This conversation must be done nicely and with love. Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me, OM, or to SS. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation. That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long.
------------
Brief update.
Contacted my W on Monday. Asked her how the dinner went with OM. She said a fine and a little weird. Not sure what she meant about weird bc then she went on to tell me that he received message while they were eating that his father had passed away. I asked her how OM's father died. She explained that he had cancer and that he had been in a bad way for a while. She told me that she has never met any of OM's family and didn't know much about the situation. I told her that I felt badly that OM's dad had died and that she could pass along my condolences if she wanted to.
We chit chatted a bit more about SS and his homework. I told her that I needed to finish up some science homework that he and I had been working on last week. She told me to call him later to see if he wanted to do it.
I called later. SS didn't want to do his homework (no surprise). W said that she was going to watch a movie with SS and then do some work. I offered to take her dinner. She accepted.
I went to W's house with some dinner. We hung out for about an hour. I acted as if I was completely fine and cheerful. No more talk of OM or R.
Today - I began new approach to situation as described above. I did not initiate contact with W. W texted me to ask me about some mother's day plans that I made for us and her mom. I did not respond to the text. 8 minutes later she called... I ignored the call.
I went to the gym. When I left, I noticed that she had texted me again, 'call when you can'.
On my way home, I called W back and acted as if I was cheerful.
W told me that she had to change the mother's day plans that I had made bc her brother, who is in town from Korea this week, wanted to do it later. She said that is why she was trying to get a hold of me. She did not ask where I was during the 2 hours that she could not get hold of me.
W then told me that she got news that one of her former students from when she was student teaching had committed suicide last night. She was upset about it, as was I bc I had met the girl.
W said that we'd talk more about the changes to our Mother's day plans.... 'if not tonight, then tomorrow.' I said okay.
We did not talk tonight.
BITS
Denver
^^
Denver [/quote]
^^ [/quote]
can someone tell me what those symbols mean? And where are they on the keyboard?
LOL... They mean 'bump up' here. It is 'shift, 6' on my keyboard.
Hey 25... about my update from Monday night. That was before I came up with my list. However, I don't know that it was a bad idea to be empathetic about OM's dad dying. I won't be bringing him up again in anytime in the near future though.
Thanks again for taking a look at my sitch. I've been knocked for a loop the past few days and am struggling to regain my footing.
Denver
25yearsmlc I really admire your advice... I hope I'm not out of line for asking... Can you stop by my thread and give me some input... I'm a bit lost in my current situation and no idea what to do at this point.
I think I posted on one of your older threads. Check it out and let me know. It gets a little confusing for me to keep track of these numerous threads.
Denver
Been reading your sit for the last few days (and others) and the support on here is first class.
Dont be to down on yourself, all in good time