New thread...
I chose the name of this thread because I really feel that this is what I have done since day 1 of my DB efforts. It was advice that I read very early on. It has a calming yet hopeful charm to it.
Here are the links to my old threads if you are interested in catching up.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...113#Post2115113http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2118989&page=1http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2122176&page=1
Ok buddy going to brooklyn right now but I will respond as promised. I think we really are in a very similar state of mind and can probably help each other int the mean time I will leave you with this. Maybe the words seem familiar.............
2Step - I really think that you and I are in a very similar phase of this process. Our W's still love us, but just don't know if they can trust us not to continue to inflict the type of wounds to them that we have in the past.
The underlying facts or our stich's may be different, but the type of pain that we have inflicted on our W's is VERY similar... the way that we have made them feel. My W has told me that she often felt that it was 2 against 1 (my SS and I vs. her). Even the fact that there is a step child involved in your sitch... which I didn't realize was not your W's daughter until today. SS make things particularly difficult too bc there is always that sense that someone, either the step child or the step parent, doesn't completely fit into the puzzle. Mixed families are all that more difficult to make succeed.
In any case, I think that you and I are past, or almost past, the phase that MichelleLT described as "reducing negative feelings" and into that developing friendship phase. We have to continue with this bc this is what our W's need right now. We need to have patience.
Give you W time to realize that her unhappiness is NOT all the result of your actions or inactions. I honestly believe that when my W left she blamed me for all of her unhappiness. I also think that she is beginning to realize that I was NOT solely responsible. Your W will too. You just need to be there when she does.
Your W still loves you A LOT. It is very clear from her words. Just be there for her right now man.
Now, if you'd just cut and past this to my thread to tell me the same thing.
LOL!!!!! Hahaha... Now THOSE are some words of wisdom 2Step!!
Touche my friend. Touche.
BITS
Denver
FOBD - I know that the SB invite was pushing it a bit. But, in my defense, what I haven't talked about here on the board is the session that I had with my DB Coach on Wednesday. The short version of the advice I got from her, was this:
Continue doing what has been working. BUT, use my instincts. She told me that it was okay to "test the waters" by doing little things like me inviting her to the movies the other night. She just warned me that if I sensed that any of these things pushes her away, to back off and then give it a couple of weeks.
Last night, she asked me what I was doing for the SB. I said that I didn't have any real plans. She then told me that her SIL and BIL had invited her to go with them to BIL's cousin's house, but that she didn't want to do that. Sooo... I saw an opening to "test the waters" a bit.
We'll see. If she declines, I will know that I am pushing it too hard. If she accepts, then I plan on DBing my a*s off on Sunday!
What I do know is that hug that I shared with my W last night has buoyed my spirits today!
I couldn't sleep last night bc I was fruitlessly trying to interpret my interaction with W. But my DB batteries are still charged today.
BITS
Denver
Now, as far as your gut feeling right now... FOLLOW IT. There is nothing I can stress more at this time. My H (before finally deciding to leave) was definitely being kinder to me and I felt that he was thinking about changing his mind. BECAUSE I was so afraid of being hurt even more, I built that wall so high, no one was getting in. I wouldn't trust my instincts there. Turns out, my instincts were right. He was not ready to go and was trying. But I killed any attempt. DO NOT DO THIS. Got it?
Denver, you are going to get hurt if you are right or you are wrong about your instincts. So, now you have to decide what is going to give you the best chance at reconciliation. My opinion would be if you followed the instinct that said she is softening. Go with it. If you are wrong, then you lose her (but you would have anyway). If you are right, then you gave this thing half a chance.
I feel your pain. I am so sorry that you are struggling. We are all here for you. I pray for you.
LIS
Honestly, my instinct regarding what I know about my W is telling me that she is softening. That she is seeing my changes and my consistency with those changes. That she is seeing that her unhappiness was not all my fault. That she's sees other parts of the M package that she is giving up.
My instinct is that she has had a EA, but not a PA, but she is not quite through with that.
My instinct tells me that she is VERY afraid of trusting her heart to me again.
My instinct tells me that she is afraid that if she changes course and decides to work on M, that her friends will view her as weak and codependent.
Of course, all of these gut feelings are based on how well I know my W... NOT the WAW... thus, my hesitation in trusting them.
I do sense a change though.
I guess we SHALL see.
BITS
Denver
When you give it without the expectation of return you will not have the pain.
You are right Grit. I do have expectations. I don't tell W this, but inside, I do.
I also know that if W came to me 5 years after D and told me that she and SS needed help that I would do everything in my power to help them.
You also will decide when you are doing it to "appear" nice to your W or if it is something you would do for a freind in need.
The latter coming not expecting anything.
I don't know Grit. I think that it can actually be both. Like I said, I know that if W and I D and she came to me months or years down the road and told me that she needed help, that I would give it to her if I could. I would do that for any of my friends now.
I admit that I would NOT have expectations of my friends for any help that I would give them now, and I would NOT have any expectations from W years after D, assuming that I had truly moved on by that point, and that I DO hold expectations from my W now. But these expectations our my for my own selfish and personal wants and desires. They are in my mind and are not put out to W as a condition for me helping her. In other words, the existence of these expectations does NOT change the fact that I would help my W as I would a friend.
Also this can be a slippery slope if you give her "everything" out of love you are not being fair to her or to you.
If you fix things repeatedly for her she will begin to resent you and you her.
KWIM?
You are ABSOLUTELY correct. Since my W left a little over 2 months ago, this is the first time that she has asked for my help, and I have not offered it. The only bills of her's that I continue to pay for are car insurance (which is attached to mine), her health insurance (again, attached to mine), and our gym membership (which she isn't even using right now). Oh, I guess that I still pay for her cell phone bc it is a package deal with my business phones. But early on, she offered to pay for her share of all of these things. I did decline her offer bc I knew that there was no way that she'd be able to afford it.
At first, there was a little resentment on my part bc I felt like I was letting myself be a doormat. But ultimately, I decided that all of this assistance was short term and making her pay me back would be petty at this point.
So always ask yourself WHY you do something.
You are right. But again, I think that there can be situations where there are multiple reasons why I choose to do something for her. This money thing last night is one such situation. If she had told me, "H, I don't have money to go out with my girlfriends can you help me?" There is no question in my mind that I would have politely declined.
why do you think your attached and why can't you detach more?
I did work really hard on being detached from early December until about 2 weeks ago. I made some progress and it did get me to a more stable emotional state. I think that this is the most important purpose of detaching early on with these sitch's. But I also decided that I was not ready to completely detach. I needed to do it just enough to be in a better emotional state personally and also enough to allow my W have the space and time that she needs, and to see that I wasn't going to continue to beg, plead and chase her to come back.
But I've made a choice, albeit a temporary one, NOT to go any further with detachment. I believe that I will reconcile with my W. I am focused on changing some things about myself that were not healthy for me or for my M. And I also believe that a big part of what is motivating me to make those changes is the pain that I'm going through. The pain from our situations hurts like hell, but that doesn't make it a bad thing necessarily. I think that we grow from feeling pain. Without pain, we sometimes forget how blessed we are when we have happiness instead. I guess I'm allowing myself to feel what I'm feeling right now.
Certainly there is a point when allowing myself to continue to feel this pain will be unhealthy, and I am conscious that there will be, at some point, a need to work towards a higher level of detachment. I'm just not there yet.
Like you have told me... The pain will guide me. And it has.
You may not realize this but your W has tremendous amount of guilt for what is happening.
Guess what the number one trigger of that is for her?
Yup. YOU.
Think of her as a turkey that you just put into the oven.
You keep opening the door and poking her to see if she's done.
When you see she hasn't begun to cook or not done to a point you think she should be...
It hurts.
Denver I know this because I did it.
Think of how far you have come in your own growth.
Now think how much help you had with people here...reading...experiencing...questioning and learning.
Your W does not have that. It will take time. HER time.
And it will happen on her pace NOT yours.
You have made so much progress...this next part
Is tough.
I know I got so pissed at the person trying to tell me. I was walking along my path, happy detached little Truegritter until I would interact with my W and feel like sh!t.
I know. This is the hard part. Realizing that my W has to heal at her own pace. I want that turkey to be done NOW... and it isn't. Not yet.
I may not be patient Grit, but I am resilient. I will move forward and allow her to come to me on her terms... or not. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to poke her every so often to see if she's done though.
I need to tread carefully though.
I told her that I didn't have any real plans and said to her "you guys should come over and watch it with me... we can make some queso."
You shove it open.
Her reaction left you feeling...?
Happy that she would even consider it. Hopeful that she will accept the invite. Full of expectations.
I will not pressure her about Sunday. In fact, I plan to not even contact her about it. I will wait to hear from her. If she accepts, fantastic! If not, it will sting, but I will be okay. I will continue to move forward.
Denver, for what it is worth I will spend all weekend hoping that you get to be with her on Sunday. That would be awesome for you and would certainly give all the BITS a "pick me up." It is really satisfying to hear good news on here. Man, I hope it goes well for you.
But I like your attitude. If it doesn't, you will still be OK. If you really read carefully, I can definitely see a turn in the posts from you, me and 2step. We all seem to be turning a corner and I really like how this is going. Maybe we can all cross the finish line together.
I want to give you a bit of information that I picked up from one of my interviews with a WAS. I asked about how to handle situations such as your SB invite. Here is what he said:
"When she asks you what you are going to do for an event, simply tell her what you want to, regulate the details as you see fit, make it sound fun and interesting and then stop talking. She will do one of three things: a) say nothing b) tell you about her plans and then stop talking c)tell you that your plans sound fun and nice and end it there. This is a signal that she is still not ready for quality time together. This is what I did with my W for over a year. But, then came the day that option d came out. She told me what she was doing and I wanted to be there. So, as she told me about her plans and then stopped talking, I starting thinking in my head that I wanted to be there. I dropped a hint that I might like to be there. She accepted and it turned out to be one of the first of many events that lead to our reconciliation. You see, you need to let her be the one that initiates the first date. Why? Because if she does it, you will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that she now possesses some desire to be there. If you initiate the date, she may just show up out of pity or guilt. This is not good. It may take two weeks, two months or two years to reach a place where your W will initiate that first date. But, when she does, you will at least know that she wants to be there with you. You will have to be the one to decide how long you are willing to wait for her."
I think it is sound advice coming from a WAS. But, as you stated, you know your sitch better than any of us and you do need to go with your gut. If you think it is time to "probe" for a way in, then by all means, do it. If you get rejected, just back off and regroup. You can always try again later.
Keep being our inspiration. I wish I could bring some to the table, but my W is perfectly happy in purgatory right now and I am not willing to pursue her while she sits in there. That is an awful place. I guess I have a ways to go before I will know how this will end. Well, we both know I could end this now should I chose, but I don't want that right now...
BITS never walk alone!
FOBD
But, when she does, you will at least know that she wants to be there with you. You will have to be the one to decide how long you are willing to wait for her."
Very good advice...
friday and sat are crazy work days for me
but i will catch up tomorrow
i still believe you should follow your instincts, as you know your wife
cautiously and patiently
hope today is a good one
Denver
I love the name of your thread and was drawn to it naturally.
I am sure you have already read this story but for others that are reading your thread I give you this link to the lighthouse story.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...e=64#Post641835
My instinct tells me that she is VERY afraid of trusting her heart to me again.
This is completely true of my W also, I think you know this from following our convo’s, I have to believe this will change with time and consistency on our part. Consistency we control, time we do not.
My instinct tells me that she is afraid that if she changes course and decides to work on M, that her friends will view her as weak and codependent.
This one is my single biggest worry, my W does not like to appear to look weak and in her mind this will make her look like she gave in. In my opinion the opposite is true. To try again or continue to try when everyone would understand it if you gave up is real courage and strength.
I don’t believe she has anyone in her corner saying W maybe you should slow down and think. I believe everyone is very encouraging of her to move forward and live her life. I have you guys who does she turn to when she has doubts or second thoughts, the very people who will tell her to stay the course. At this point the only person in my corner is me.
This is very frustrating and scary.
Thanks Cadet... Yes, I read that when I first found this forum. I cut and pasted it to a journal that I reread every week or so.
Like I said, I think that the whole lighthouse analogy has a calming and hopeful feeling to it. It made me feel better when I first read it.
Seriously 2Step, I think that we are M'd to the same woman. Your description of your W is so dead on for mine as well.
What about your in-laws? What is their take on the sitch? I think that I still have my MIL, SIL, BIL, and FIL in my corner bc they are all soooo against divorce. At the same time though, they will ultimately support what my W decides for herself. And they are also all very aware of how I f'd up during the M.
BITS
Denver
If I wait for my W to initiate progress toward reconciliation, I will be waiting for a very long time. My W just isn't the type of person to initiate. Plus, she has always been very insecure about how I feel about her. Just like the other night, when she went in to hug me. I could feel that she was so unsure that I would accept it from her.
So this is my problem. I know that I can't rush things bc I risk pushing her away again. But, at the same time, I also know that I'm going to have to delicately initiate any progress towards reconciliation.
This would be easy if I could read my W's mind. Unfortunately, I can't. I can just go on my instincts. That is what I am doing now.
Still no word from W on whether or not she will accept my invite to watch the SB with me tomorrow. I have a feeling that I won't hear anything until tomorrow afternoon. Yes, I will be disappointed if she declines, but I will be ok. I won't look at it as anything more than it being a little too much too soon for her.
BITS
Denver
Well in that regard you are up on me. My MIL is very sick has been for yrs never really liked the idea of W being with me for several reasons.
1. I was M before and had a daughter and W was her youngest D. I completely understood this.
2. Moved D to Jersey away from her.
SIL
Never really liked the idea of having to be the only person taking care of MIL so for a few years she was not happy about the move either. That is the extent of my W's family. A few years ago MIL and SIL were trying to talk D into leaving me and moving back to OK so she can be closer, it got so bad that my W told them that if they were going to call only to complain about me they should save their minutes and not call her.
They have never accepted the fact that we moved to Jersey and I took the brunt of that. I would argue that they had selfish love. I was raised completely different my happiness was my parent’s happiness. If that meant living in Alaska while they lived in FL they were fine with that. Anytime I talk to my dad who is 90 and lives in FL everything is perfect in his life nothing is wrong. Then I find out through family he is sick or he fell but he never mentions it to me so that I don't worry.
But when W would talk to mother or sister it was "I'm so sick" "I don't understand why you have to live so far" "Why can't you find work closer to home" "It's not fair that I do everything for mom" "You shouldn't be raising someone else D" this crap went on for years.
After awhile it became a source of constant irritation for me. My family always took my W as a daughter, in the immediate family there is about 20 members and they loved W. In my W's family there is mom and sister and that’s it. They live in a town pop 8k where you can't blink without the entire town knowing about it.
I don't know if you see what I'm getting at here; my uphill battle is HUGE!
So something else that I forgot to include in my update from Thursday night's contact with W...
When we were outside of her car at Walmart talking, it somehow came up that W had not called one of my close friend's wife back. W told me that she was nervous about it bc she wasn't sure what my friend's W knew about our sitch. I told her that it was fine that my friend's W would love to hear from her.
Then W told me that she had a very strange dream about 3 of my other very close friends. In the dream, W and I were hanging out (yippy! W including me in dreams!). My 3 close friends were there, but not with us. These friends came up to W and thanked her for NOT talking to them.
W told me that she thinks that the dream has something to do with her concern about what my friends think of her with all that is happening bw us. Specifically, she is concerned bc her sister's husband had told one of my close friends some stuff about W and OM. Stuff that my W says her BIL knows nothing about and makes her R with OM seem to be something that it is not, i.e., an A. In other words, she is concerned that BIL's gossip, that W says is untrue, makes her feel really uncomfortable about what my friends think of her.
Any thoughts on what this conversation means? Why is she telling me this? Why is she having this dream?
BITS
Denver
I do 2Step. That is tough. And I agree. The love that your W's family has for her seems VERY selfish. Saying that she shouldn't be raising someone else's D?? Seriously?? Wow. I'm sorry man. I would have been in a constant state of irritation as well.
This also had to be very tough on your W. How did she feel about the move to Jersey? Was there a part of her that was somewhat glad to get away from MIL and SIL?
BITS
Denver
This also had to be very tough on your W. How did she feel about the move to Jersey? Was there a part of her that was somewhat glad to get away from MIL and SIL?
BITS
Denver
At first yes. She was a little relieved that she no longer had to take care of mother she had been doing this since she was 13 after a bad car accident followed by some major sickness left her very poor of health.
After awhile though she felt some guilt for being so far from home. I admit I did not want to go to OK all that much for vacations so we usually went to the Islands or Vegas Disney things like that. I should of done more to go see her family but I almost felt like a hypocrite because I knew they did not like me all that much. They were always very pleasant to me but I knew the truth. Sometimes W would go to OK to see them for a week or so and always came back feeling like crap. It would take W about a week to level out from the visits.
I did offer to bring mother and sister to stay with us in Jersey many times but they always had some excuse not to come. This last summer my W was bummed out that her sister had never been here so I said "you know what. Just buy the damn ticket and she will have no choice but to come" We did and she came. I took her to NYC showed her around took her to nice restaurants Broadway shows treated her like royalty. W was really happy. In August I had talked to her mom secretly and offered to bring her up here for 6 months to stay with us she promised to get back to me. Two months later W left.
Anyways this is your thread man not mine.
>>>>>UPDATE ALERT (Yes 2Step, I'm stealing this from you!)<<<<<<<<
W just texted me about tomorrow.
W: "I'm not sure how i feel about going to your place to watch the game tomorrow since we haven't had any discussions about our situation. What are your thoughts?"
Me: "I understand how you feel. But I think that it would be nice to just hang out. So I'm not uncomfortable with it at all. I don't want you to be uncomfortable though. It is truly up to you. I would luv to have you guys over, but I will understand if you decide not to."
---
W has not responded yet.
It seems to me that W is trying to put the ball in my court on both, her coming over to watch SB AND R talk... Like I've said before, W does not like to initiate things like R talk.
What do you guys think?
BITS
Denver
I think this is a copyright violations! LOL
Cool give her some time to think. Another alternative is to go someplace neutral.
That's not a bad idea. I may throw that out there.
It's just so frustrating knowing that W so obviously wants to have a R talk, but she just won't initiate it.
This is all just such a game. I hate it. But what choice do we have??
BITS
Denver
Right now none. Everyday you spend with her you get new info and more data on how she is doing or reacting to being around you.
It is a game and he who maintains his cool and follows the plan wins! Your move!
If she wants to talk about it that bad she will bring it up. She had the courage to leave right? Well if it is important enough to her she will have enough courage to talk
It's the Super Bowl, not the right time to talk R/M you won't fix your M tomorrow over dinner and you'll miss the game.
Sorry just rattling stuff as it comes to my mind
I agree. I just wish that she'd do it already so that I knew what was going on in that pretty head of her's! Or maybe I don't want to know. All I need right now is to have her drop another bomb on me. Ahhhhhh!!!!!!
BITS
Denver
Man, you and I must REALLY be bored this afternoon! I think that we're the only ones here right now. LOL...
hahahahahahah I am taking a test as I post. I have no life. Its a two man show right now
Quantum Statistics. Getting a Masters in International Business. I gotta tell you though, this sitch with my W has really made it hard for me to concentrate.
Did she get back to you?
>>>>>UPDATE ALERT (Yes 2Step, I'm stealing this from you!)<<<<<<<<
W just texted me about tomorrow.
W: "I'm not sure how i feel about going to your place to watch the game tomorrow since we haven't had any discussions about our situation. What are your thoughts?"
Me: "I understand how you feel. But I think that it would be nice to just hang out. So I'm not uncomfortable with it at all. I don't want you to be uncomfortable though. It is truly up to you. I would luv to have you guys over, but I will understand if you decide not to."
---
W has not responded yet.
It seems to me that W is trying to put the ball in my court on both, her coming over to watch SB AND R talk... Like I've said before, W does not like to initiate things like R talk.
Well, I was right... my W was trying to put the ball in my court.
Further update...
W responded to my last text:
W: "I guess I just don't understand why you haven't initiated a conversation with me or tried to work things out. I don't want to pretend that there's nothing wrong. SS has hope every time we are together and that's not fair to him."
Now... I know that I'm probably going to get pummeled with 2x4s for my response. I probably deserve it. I just hope that I didn't just run the squirrel over with a semi. I'd smile at that comment if I wasn't so scared right now.
Me: "W, I'm just trying to give you all the space and time that you need for you and your happiness. I want nothing more than for us to reconnect and work things out."
"I understand why you left. I really do. I've been using our time apart to heal some things about myself that were there long before you and I met. That has been my focus. Bc if I haven't healed, then I can't be the person and husband that I want to be. I wasn't."
"But my silence on 'us' isn't bc I don't care. The opposite is true. It is the most important thing to me in this world. My silence has been out of respect for you and what you asked me for when you left."
"I would be excited to talk to you about 'us' if and when you are ready."
"I love you, SS, and my D more than anything (yes, even my dogs) and I want a new marriage with you... A better and healthier marriage. I believe in us 110%. Now more than ever actually."
"I bet that I just really made you not want to come over tomorrow.
I hope not, buy again, I respect you and whatever you choose. Both tomorrow and in the future."
------
That was about 10 minutes ago. Haven't received a response yet.
Okay... Hit me with the 2x4s...
BITS
Denver
Quantum what?!?!
I understand the feeling. Unfortunately, my job requires me to be able to concentrate and focus. I haven't been too good at it in the past 3 months.
Yes, she responded. I updated above.
2x4
It started out so promising
"W, I'm just trying to give you all the space and time that you need for you and your happiness. I want nothing more than for us to reconnect and work things out."
"I understand why you left. I really do. I've been using our time apart to heal some things about myself that were there long before you and I met. That has been my focus. Bc if I haven't healed, then I can't be the person and husband that I want to be.
Probably should of left it at that. I think you just passed me up big time my friend, but I also think you gave too much info. Can't be interested if you give her the whole meal in one serving.
Yep... you are 2Step are right.
I just reread what I said to her. Too much. Damn it.
Still haven't heard back from her. I think that I just squished the squirrel.
Wonderful.
Denver, I only have a few minutes before my ride gets here, but I could not leave without sending you a few words of encouragement. You have been my wing-man for some time and I would not be much of a lead if I left you behind at such an important juncture.
Unfortunately, 2step is dead on. Next time just stop with the part about why you have been dark and then just stop talking. Let them register what you have said and then they can formulate a response. Lately, I have been trying to do that with my W as much as possible. It works! Adopt the "less is more" mentality. Let your W do the talking, you do the listening. It is good for them to hear their own words sometimes. It will make then finally come to grips with the B/S they are putting out. Keep that in mind.
This is still good though and I am very happy for you. Her words show conflict in her mind. She does want to be with you, she just doesn't know why or want to accept it. I would, however, try to meet in a neutral place and just hang out. NO RELATIONSHIP TALK OF ANY KIND! Just watch the game, enjoy her company and live for the moment with NO expectations. You will have a great day, I can just feel it!!
I have to know how this goes, so I will check back in when I get back from the movies.
BITS never walk alone!
FOBD
Denver,
Take a deep breath and relax. Go light a candle. Brother I have done it you have done and we will continue to make mistakes along the way. THIS IS NOT A DEAL KILLER! Maybe for tomorrow but not going forward.
Dust yourself off and regroup. Give her time to think on those words you gave her a lot to think about.
The important thing is not to beat yourself up over it because that is what I do all the time. You see my convo's 99% I over do it but I always rebound and so will you.
Thanks man. Yes, after I reread what I texted W I realized that I had said too much. I think that I have been so silent, for so long, with W on the issue of our M, that she brought it up and I just let it all come out at once!!
This stuff is easier said than done, I'll tell you that much!
Oh well, I don't think that I could have caused too much damage with what I said. It's been an hour and a half and she hasn't responded. I'm not too worried though. I imagine that she is either busy, or isn't sure how to respond bc I put the ball back in her court.
What I WISH that I could say is this... "Just come home tonight, damnit!!! We both know that we want to fix our M so let's just start doing it and quit playing these games back and forth!!" But alas, that would be a big mistake I suppose...
BITS
Denver
W just responded via text...
W: "Had thought about seeing if you wanted to have dinner but time slipped by with Mel. We've been brainstorming music. We should talk though. Face to face."
Me: "I'd be happy to talk to you about it whenever and wherever... tonight, tomorrow... I guess what I"m saying is that I'm available. :)"
W: "Well, I'm home. Could leave SS alone, but that's probably bad idea with weather."
Me: "I'd suggest that you guys can come over, but not sure we'd be able to talk. Guess we could rent a movie for SS upstairs. Whatever you are comfortable with."
-----
Waiting to hear back. I'm either in for a major jump in progress towards reconciliation, or I'm in for a major bomb that will set me back a few hundred steps.
Very nervous here.
BITS
Denver
Wish that I could call my DB coach right now!!! They need to have an on-call coach! LOL...
She took her time to respond, she thought about it before she got back to you. I suggest you do the same. Take time to think before you text.
No promises but this does not seem like any kind of bomb. I am actually nervous also. I am turning into such a woman.
Don't jump with both feet first. It took baby steps and patience to get this far, continue with this approach Denver.
No promises but this does not seem like any kind of bomb. I am actually nervous also. I am turning into such a woman.
Dude, I laughed out loud when I just read this!! We are aren't we??? LOL...
Not that there's anything wrong with it BIDETS...
LOL I might as well change my title from BITS to BIDET. If you were to meet me or some of my friends we are probably the least sensitive guys you will ever meet.
A bunch of us play on a football league every fall and the other teams think we are crazy and here I am with a knot in my stomach because you might actually have your W come over tonight and the M talk at her request.
I am checking myself to make sure I have not gone through some sex change. Oh well keep us posted since we seem to be the only two without a life right now
If you were to meet me or some of my friends we are probably the least sensitive guys you will ever meet.
You are cracking me up tonight! Me and my friends are the same. I went out with a couple of them last night and tore it up. I got pretty drunk and started telling them about the DB stuff, the WAW, and how they need to be careful about how they treat their wives... Needless to say, they just looked at me funny and then called me some names that I can't repeat here. LOL... it's pretty funny to think back on it now that I'm sober.
I am checking myself to make sure I have not gone through some sex change. Oh well keep us posted since we seem to be the only two without a life right now
LOL... I will 2Step. Too bad we can't all go out and share some war stories over a few beers! We'd probably have to hold FOBD back from fighting with fences though! J/k FOBD!
BITS
Denver
I think partying with FOBD would be a barrel of yuks but I would carry around a piece of a wooden fence with us all night so we wouldn't lose him.
I am going to get out of here or you are going to have to start a new thread, not getting a whole lot of advice at this point.
As for telling my friends about the DB and WAW you are braver than me, if I mention that to my friends I would be friendless along with being wifeless
Seriously, I think that my W is DBing me... Unbelievable.
So here's the latest. W just finished working on music with her band partner. She responds to my last text to her:
W: "I think that I'm too tired to talk tonight. Let me know if you'd like to meet sometime to talk though. Although I'd be fine watching the game tomorrow, I think it sends very mixed messages to you and SS, so I probably shouldn't. I appreciate the invitation but there are too many unresolved issue with us right now."
Me: "Ok. I understand. Maybe we can go to dinner and talk sometime next week?"
W: "Sure. Just let me know when you are thinking. I think that I'm going to crash soon. Too much wine with Mel as usual!"
Me: "Ok. Goodnight."
W: "night"
-------------
What the hell?!!? Now coming over to watch the game "sends very mixed messages" to me?!?!? But just earlier in the night she's saying that she doesn't understand "why you haven't initiated a conversation with me or tried to work things out."!!!! What?! Those two very different statements DON'T send mixed messages W?!
F&#*$&ing seriously!!! This damn WAS syndrome needs a cure. This is ridiculous.
I know that I f'd up in our M, but how much punishment do I really deserve?!
Sorry... just venting.
BITS
Denver
Having a VERY difficult time being the damn lighthouse right now!
The quote in my signature line below has never seemed so appropriate to me as it does now.
Cmon, you can't really expect her to jump at the chance to get together with you, do you?!?! If she were going to be that quick to come back, she wouldn't have left in the first place. You need to cool your engines and pull back big time. You have the fish on the hook, don't reel it in too fast or you may just lose it. You have to start being more non-chalant and not jumping out of your skin when she is moving in closer to you. She is leaning quite closely to you. She is testing the water. It needs to be warm water, not too hot or it won't be comfortable for her to climb in. Just tell yourself that you are on the verge of making HUGE strides here. Don't come across as too anxious or she will get nervous. She is a squirrel. You are setting yourself up for disappointment with too much expectation. Just take a deep breath, celebrate your success and take a step back and analyze everything that is happening. You need to keep a cooler head here, amigo. You are right on the cusp and I am so excited for you, I can't begin to tell you.
B.IT.S.
Thanks MJ. You are right. I thought I was within striking distance of ending this thing as soon as tonight and I was wrong. Just frustrated.
BITS
Denver
Maybe my W is the one that texted you. Look the script is the same with your W and mine. "I don't want to send you mix signals" "I don't want to give you false hope" Blah blah blah You have read her play book she has not seen yours
You got overly excited tonight now she brought you back to earth.
Sounds to me she tested the waters a little bit and you might have spooked her, this is why they say if W ever wants to talk about M don't get overly excited. However you did not completely scare her off, she is still willing to talk later on in the week. I think this is a good thing because it gives you a chance to calm down a little and think before you act.
Move forward with caution and remember how you got here, through patience and consistency, NOW is the time to really practice what you have learned.
It is ok she feels this way she is scared and probably a little nervous about what to say or how to react she was not ready yet and she realized it when she received your text.
Breath and see this for what it is.........a step in the right direction.
No promises but this does not seem like any kind of bomb. I am actually nervous also. I am turning into such a woman.
Dude, I laughed out loud when I just read this!! We are aren't we??? LOL...
Hey....I resemble that remark!
>>>>>UPDATE ALERT <<<<<<<<
Summing up my update for Saturday so easier to read...
2/5/11
5:50 p.m. W just texted me about tomorrow.
W: "I'm not sure how i feel about going to your place to watch the game tomorrow since we haven't had any discussions about our situation. What are your thoughts?"
Me: "I understand how you feel. But I think that it would be nice to just hang out. So I'm not uncomfortable with it at all. I don't want you to be uncomfortable though. It is truly up to you. I would luv to have you guys over, but I will understand if you decide not to."
---
It seems to me that W is trying to put the ball in my court on both, her coming over to watch SB AND R talk... Like I've said before, W does not like to initiate things like R talk.
-----------
6:45 p.m. Well, I was right... my W was trying to put the ball in my court.
Further update...
W responded to my last text:
W: "I guess I just don't understand why you haven't initiated a conversation with me or tried to work things out. I don't want to pretend that there's nothing wrong. SS has hope every time we are together and that's not fair to him."
Me: "W, I'm just trying to give you all the space and time that you need for you and your happiness. I want nothing more than for us to reconnect and work things out."
"I understand why you left. I really do. I've been using our time apart to heal some things about myself that were there long before you and I met. That has been my focus. Bc if I haven't healed, then I can't be the person and husband that I want to be. I wasn't."
"But my silence on 'us' isn't bc I don't care. The opposite is true. It is the most important thing to me in this world. My silence has been out of respect for you and what you asked me for when you left."
"I would be excited to talk to you about 'us' if and when you are ready."
"I love you, SS, and my D more than anything (yes, even my dogs) and I want a new marriage with you... A better and healthier marriage. I believe in us 110%. Now more than ever actually."
"I bet that I just really made you not want to come over tomorrow. I hope not, buy again, I respect you and whatever you choose. Both tomorrow and in the future."
------
8:30 p.m. W just responded via text...
W: "Had thought about seeing if you wanted to have dinner but time slipped by with Mel. We've been brainstorming music. We should talk though. Face to face."
Me: "I'd be happy to talk to you about it whenever and wherever... tonight, tomorrow... I guess what I"m saying is that I'm available. :)"
W: "Well, I'm home. Could leave SS alone, but that's probably bad idea with weather."
Me: "I'd suggest that you guys can come over, but not sure we'd be able to talk. Guess we could rent a movie for SS upstairs. Whatever you are comfortable with."
-----
Waiting to hear back. I'm either in for a major jump in progress towards reconciliation, or I'm in for a major bomb that will set me back a few hundred steps.
Very nervous here.
---------------------
9:15 p.m. So here's the latest. W just finished working on music with her band partner. She responds to my last text to her:
W: "I think that I'm too tired to talk tonight. Let me know if you'd like to meet sometime to talk though. Although I'd be fine watching the game tomorrow, I think it sends very mixed messages to you and SS, so I probably shouldn't. I appreciate the invitation but there are too many unresolved issue with us right now."
Me: "Ok. I understand. Maybe we can go to dinner and talk sometime next week?"
W: "Sure. Just let me know when you are thinking. I think that I'm going to crash soon. Too much wine with Mel as usual!"
Me: "Ok. Goodnight."
W: "night"
-------------
What the hell?!!? Now coming over to watch the game "sends very mixed messages" to me?!?!? But just earlier in the night she's saying that she doesn't understand "why you haven't initiated a conversation with me or tried to work things out."!!!! What?! Those two very different statements DON'T send mixed messages W?!
F&#*$&ing seriously!!! This damn WAS syndrome needs a cure. This is ridiculous.
I know that I f'd up in our M, but how much punishment do I really deserve?!
Sorry... just venting.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
I haven't followed your sitch, so I am coming to this with no background. But if the two of you want to reconcile, then why not agree to go to a Retrouvaille weekend? Check the website,
www.helpourmarriage.org. Dates and locations are listed on the website for all the upcoming weekends.
The weekend program teaches you how to communicate effectively. They give you the topics to talk about, teach you how to frame your discussions so they don't alienate or accuse the other person, but do get to the heart of what needs to be said.
it's not group therapy. You're not talking about your problems in front of other people. It is a very warm, pleasant weekend that saves about 1/2 the marriages that give it a chance. There's a whole thread on the subject in Piecing called "Retrouvaille means change". It doesn't really mean change, it means re-discovery, but I named the thread that because if you go and you do what they tell you to do, your relationship will change, and both of you will change too. And by that I mean, change for the better!
I've read some about Retrouvaille and would love to go with W, if I can get her to the point where she will consider it.
I'm curious what others think of my interaction with W yesterday. Of course, I'm obsessing about it this morning.
Hi Denver:
Breathe.....
I still think the SB ask was pursuing and I think you knew that she was prob going to decline the invite. She isn't ready for that. Remember in DR - BABY STEPS. Look, it's hard when you think you may have a little light at the end of the tunnel. You just want to grab the football and run but the expectation is too high and you will suffer great disappointment which will continue to undermine your progress.
I think it's fab that she wants to meet up with you for dinner one night this week. You must go into it with an open mind, NO EXPECTATIONS, don't treat it as a date, treat it as 2 friends getting together for a meal.
I wouldn't bring up anything with Retrouvaille at this juncture. If you do, you are going to shooting yourself in the foot. Again, too high expectations. Patience, Patience, Patience. Be proud of the baby steps you have made and continue to make. She needs to get their on her terms not yours. Do some research on this place and keep it tucked away in your pocket for future reference. If she's not ready to koin you in a chat with your DB Coach,she's def not going to be ready for the retreat.
Keep your efforts going. You have been an inspiration to me and others on this board.
Happy Super Bowl!
(((HUGS)))
hi - sorry work kicks my butt on friday and saturday nights
but i think she still needs time, but she def wants to make sure you are still in the game
your dbing i working, she is getting worried that you might not be there
i think your responses are reassuring to her, and she needs that, but at the same time, i think you might be slightly less available? (question mark because of course you know her best)
it doesn't hurt to have her guessing a bit
you are in this for the long haul, it is not going to be a quick fix
zen is right about retouville, not now
and i also think she is right about the superbowl
go find a party with some good friends and have a good time
don't be discouraged
you are doing great
Great to see your progress denver. My wife texted me on thursday night asking if I would be around this weekend bc she wanted to talk about our situation soon. I told her that I would be but by family would be down bc we were taking my D2 to toy story on ice. She just said "oh" and that maybe we could get together this week and talk. She is uncomfortable around my family so I'm not surprised she chose to wait. I keep wondering what she could possibly want to talk about...is it just about our finances, our D2, or does she really want to talk about us. The last one really scares me but then I think to myself, what else could she say to me that could make me feel worse. She has told me before that she doesn't want to be married, so my heart has been through that. I know she was involved with a guy from work, not sure if she still is, he lives 7 hours away. So if this talk does happen, I will keep low expectations and go into a discussion with low expectations. I keep reminding myself that this is a marathon...not a sprint. I miss her dearly but can't appear needy or weak. Women don't find these qualities attractive and I can't blame them. Good luck bud
BITS
<<<<<<<<<<<<UPDATE ALERT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
W initiates text convo at noonish (I'm going to edit out chit chat for brevity):
W: "SIL AND BIL said you are welcome to watch the SB at their house."
Me: "LOL... what are you doing for the SB???... Think that I'm getting arthritis from all the texting you and I have done in the past 12 hours.
"
W: "Going to over to SIL and FIL's. You used to be the texting king. It was the only way to communicate with you."
Me: "I prefer talking to you these days.
So you thought it would be bad for you to come to my house for the game but you are inviting me to your sister's? Hmmm... I'm not sure how comfortable that would be for me. I would like to hang out with you, SS and everyone, but... I don't know. Plus, I'm wearing the same outfit that you saw me in the other night! LOL..."
W: "yada yada" about something I was looking for in the store
Me: "Thanks. Let me think about going to SIL's. I want to see you guys. I just don't want to be uncomfortable. Or for you to be. I assume that you are Ok with it since you sent me the invite though."
W: "I'm fine with you being there as long as you change your outfit! LOL! No really, I don't mind being around you these days I just think that we should talk soon."
Me: "Yes, what every husband want to hear from his wife "I don't mind being around you these days"... LOL.. J/k."
W: "Sorry. Just being honest. I'm not as willing to dive into anything with you as you are. It's complicated and I'm seriously confused and torn. Just trying to be nice."
Me: "Who said that I was willing to dive into anything??"
"
W: "Nice. If you are smart, you'd do anything to keep me. But that's just my opinion.
"
Me: "I was just teasing. You know how I feel. I'd walk through the gates of hell for you and SS. I think that I've come pretty close to doing that over the past several months. Anyway, I was just kiddin around. What time do you plan to go to your sisters?"
W: "no, i know you were kidding."
Then some more talk about me picking up some buffalo wings for the SB party that I will spare everyone from.
-----------
So this is the deal everyone. I realize that I am not practicing good DB principles at every turn right now. But I credit DB for getting me to this point.
My sitch is now this - My W wants to reconcile. I'm fairly confident of that. There seems to be pursuit on her part, but it is very passive aggressive. My educated guess is that she wants reconciliation, but she needs for it to happen in a way that she does NOT appear to have made a mistake in leaving in the first place. She needs to do it in a way where it appears that she has proven to me that she won't stay in a miserable M and that she will leave me if pushed too far.
I think that I've got to give this to her, at least to an extent. I think that this is what I actually need to do to continue to draw her closer.
Unfortunately, what this means for me is that she continues to have complete control over the situation. I'm fine with that I suppose as long as it can be corrected down the road when our reconciliation is more stable. I won't agree to reconciliation without solution based therapy. That is one of my few conditions for reconciliation.
Another concern that I have is her comments today that "It's complicated and I'm seriously confused and torn." I'm not sure what she is referring to specifically here.
It could be that she is torn bw sticking to her guns that the M is over and working on M. Or, it could have something to do with OM. I can deal with the former... not as sure about the latter. I don't know if I can deal with being 1 of 2 men that she is choosing bw right now. Not sure how I will deal with this if this is the case.
Another concern that has seriously been rising within me is with possibility of transitioning into the "piecing" stage of DB, I will have to actually walk the walk and forgive W for EA and, maybe, even a PA. I'm pretty certain that I can forgive her for EA. I have some doubts about PA. I know that I've talked a lot about unconditional love, but man, a PA will be hard for me to get past.
W and I plan to talk in the coming days, so I'm sure that I will be getting answers to some of these questions. I am cautiously optimistic at this point.
BITS
Denver
P.S. Sandi - I'd really like to get your take on what may be going on in my W's mind right now.
^^^^^^^^
Okay... on my way to my SIL and BIL's house to watch SB with W and her family. Should be interesting...
I will update later!
BITS
Denver
hope it was fun for you
i truly do think you know how much to mix the dbing technique with what you know about your wife
because of my husbands abandonment issues, i knew last year, that if i went completely dark on him, he would be gone
so trust your gut, denver
and be careful...a few of the things you say, do seem a bit "too available"
i do like the "i'd walk through the gates of hell line"
i think that is very masculine and we, as women, like to feel taken care of sometimes
Thanks grr. Well, one of the things that my W says she fell in love with when we first met was how I "made her feel safe". So I guess it's good. I know that I've seemed way too available to W. Honestly though, I think that if I backed off, she would mirror that and back off too. It is a tough line for me to walk right now.
I will update in a little while.
BITS
Denver
So went to SIL and BIL's to watch game. W, SS, niece (3yrs) and another friend of SIL's was there. Nothing special bw W and I. We sat on different chairs but next to each other most of the game. We made chit chat off and on and shared a few laughs. I spent a lot of time playing with my niece who I absolutely adore. Didn't spend much time with SS as he spent most of the game outside making an igloo in the snow. LOL...
W and I shared a hug after I walked her to her car after the game. We talked a little about what night we would go to dinner either this coming week or the week after.
That's about it. I think that I did a nice job acting "as if" I am completely happy and cheerful. But I'm sure that it just came across as I was happy bc I was there with W and her family. Oh well.
I think that it is more progress, albeit small.
BITS
Denver
it sounds like a nice evening
and there is nothing wrong with her thinking that you were happy to be there with her and family
i'm sure that warms her
keep doing what you are doing
hope sleep comes easily tonight
Thanks grr!
FOBD - You okay pal?! Haven't heard from you since you went to the movies last night and I don't see your thread anywhere.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
Sorry, man. Got home late last night and was tired. Did't turn on the computer at all. Got up this morning, hit the gym for two hours and then spent the rest of the day prepping for party. Just now getting on the forum. I just spent some time catching up on your sitch.
First, congratulations on getting to spend today with your W. Remember what I said the other night about letting her initiate the first date. Looks like she did it and it at least you got to know she actually wanted you there. Very nice. I also think you did a nice job of setting it up. I know you feel like you are not DB'ing "by the book" right now, but remember that ever case is different and you are going to have to play this by ear going forward. None the less, I think you did very well and I am very glad to call you a BITS!
Frankly, man, I would say the best thing you can do is keep it up. Keep using the "squirrel analogy." Look how far you have brought her along.
As for wanting to talk, well, be ready for that one. It could be good, it could be bad. My W contacted me three weeks ago because "she wanted to talk." It turns out she just wanted to reaffirm to me that we are through and that she wanted furniture. I guess all I can tell you is prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
But, I do like where you are going. You seem to have your mind in a good place right now and your plan is working. Remember, I am watching you to formulate my own plan...
Keep it up. We may very soon have another BITS victory under our belt!!!
BITS never walk alone!
FOBD
Oh, almost forgot... True Grit was pretty good, but not the best Cohen Brothers film by any stretch. This movie barely touched No Country For Old Men. I would say go see it and make your own opinion. Jeff Bridges did a fabulous job. All in all, I would give it three stars.
Geez, you punch one fence and you get a label around here!!
For the record, I spent the entire weekend sober and I only punched a couch cushion when Roethlisberger threw that idiotic pick!! In all honesty, I don't mind you guys giving me sh*t about that stupid behavior on my part. It will make me think twice next time!
FOBD
I'm just glad that you can take it FOBD!! 2Step and I were having a ball being the only 2 BITS on the board yesterday afternoon.
As for wanting to talk, well, be ready for that one. It could be good, it could be bad. My W contacted me three weeks ago because "she wanted to talk." It turns out she just wanted to reaffirm to me that we are through and that she wanted furniture. I guess all I can tell you is prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
This is my major concern at this juncture too. W has made 5 statements that seem contradictory in regards to what W wants us to talk about later this week:
1. "I guess I just don't understand why you haven't initiated a conversation with me or tried to work things out."
This was said last night and seems to suggest that she has been waiting for me to go to her, initiate R talk, and try to work things out.
2. "Although I'd be fine watching the game tomorrow, I think it sends very
mixed messages to you and SS, so I probably shouldn't. I appreciate the invitation but there are too many unresolved issue with us right now."
Also said last night. One take on this could be that she is not interested in reconciliation at this point and she needs to clear up the 'mixed messages' that she is concerned about.
3."SIL AND BIL said you are welcome to watch the SB at their house."
This was said early this afternoon. W and I had already decided that we would NOT be watching the game together, yet she initiates an invite to her sisters to watch the game with her and her family. This seemed very passive aggressive to me. She didn't say 'I'd like you to come over' or 'why don't you come over', she phrased it as an invite from SIL. BUT, she didn't have to invite me at all. To me, this seems that she did want to spend the time with me. If true, this would be a good sign.
4. "I'm not as willing to dive into anything with you as you are. It's complicated and I'm seriously confused and torn. Just trying to be nice."
Said early this afternoon. This one concerns me the most. Mainly the 'it's complicated and I'm seriously confused and torn" part. What is complicated? What is she confused about? What is she torn between? These statements will probably cause me to lose sleep.
5. "If you are smart, you'd do anything to keep me. But that's just my opinion.
"
Said early this afternoon. W's first statement of any kind indicating that there is a chance that M may be saved. It is the first time that she has said anything opposite of what she told me on December 22 or 23 when she told me, "you lost me. i am not a price to be won. you cannot win me back."
--------
I think that deep down W knows that she wants to reconcile. I really do. I think that she is embroiled in an internal battle with herself. With all of the "concrete" and "final" decisions that she thought she had made back in November and December. With all of the statements to that effect that she probably uttered to all of her friends and family.
W does not want to come out of this looking like she made a mistake and crawled back to me. She wants to come out of this looking like the victor and me looking like I had to beg and plead for one more chance to show that I could be a good H.
Where I think that there is at least a reasonable chance that I could be wrong are with the 'its complicated, I'm confused, I'm torn" statements. These COULD relate to OM. I lean towards that they do not bc I have seen VERY little evidence that he has been a big part of her life over the past couple of weeks at least. And even before that, I had written her that I had a feeling that things bw W and OM were done or almost done. This could be the work of my imagination still making OM a big part of this... OR, it could be the work of my denial that OM is NOT still a big part. I can't trust either. So I really don't know.
I guess I will get answers when she and I go to dinner in the coming week or two.
BITS
Denver
You are reading too much into her "confused and torn" comment. She is feeling that way because she had told herself that she was done with you. Now she wants to come back. She is a bit skeptical, but she is warming up to the idea of R. You say she is a somewhat stubborn person, so she will naturally be a bit "confused and torn" because she has changed her mind.
You know better than we, but I really do not think much, if any type of A went on. You describe the OM as someone she plays music with, so I get the feeling that there was waaaaaaay more going on in his mind than in hers. She was flattered by him and maybe a bit smitten, but I would seriously doubt if she considered him much more than he really is. JMHO.
Man, you are there. I am thrilled for you. Just tread lightly, shed some doubt to her. It will validate her feelings and take her guard down and show her that you are serious about fixing things and won't just fall back into the same patterns. Your doubt will also let her know that she has some work to do without you coming out and telling her she has some things she needs to work on.
Great work!
B.I.T.S.
of course she contradicts herself
she is confused
none of this is black or white
and that is why you have to let her figure it out for herself (or at least think she is?)
it seems weird to say, but don't worry about om - easier said i know- but you, denver are much more attractive to her, on so many levels...and will remain if you stay steadfast, and patient
you are not even sure this is happening
so what good will it do you to dwell, when you already know you want her back
we usually see people the most clearly, and i mean really see them, when they are standing not so close to us..you know what i mean
give her the room to truly see how wonderful you are and how lucky she is to have you
and when you have dinner, let her lead the conversation
of course she contradicts herself
she is confused
none of this is black or white
and that is why you have to let her figure it out for herself (or at least think she is?)
it seems weird to say, but don't worry about om - easier said i know- but you, denver are much more attractive to her, on so many levels...and will remain if you stay steadfast, and patient
you are not even sure this is happening
so what good will it do you to dwell, when you already know you want her back
we usually see people the most clearly, and i mean really see them, when they are standing not so close to us..you know what i mean
give her the room to truly see how wonderful you are and how lucky she is to have you
and when you have dinner, let her lead the conversation.
Thanks grr and MJ. I think that you both are absolutely correct. And yes, I will let her lead the conversation, validate, and agree.
But...
shed some doubt to her. It will validate her feelings and take her guard down and show her that you are serious about fixing things and won't just fall back into the same patterns. Your doubt will also let her know that she has some work to do without you coming out and telling her she has some things she needs to work on.
I think that I will work this in too MJ. I think that this is a good idea.
BITS
Denver
WOW, Denver, all good stuff!!!!
Sounds like she wants to come back but is scared. She pushed you away, she said she was done... it probably is scary for her to want to come back but not sure if you want her, if the changes are real and if you guys can make it work.
I think MJ is right on about OM.
So happy for you!!!!! Keep up the good work!!!
Denver,
1. I am glad that you went to see the game. I know that was a tough decision, but you made the right one.
2. Contradictory statements??? Well, maybe it's just me, but I would be thrilled by those. If she kept insisting it was over and not giving you a glimmer of hope, then I would be more concerned. That is not what's happening. It's time for you to take a walk over to the thread showing people who reconciled. Those people are together and were hearing the same things you are.
3. "Trying to be nice." Ugh, I would love to just tell her not to do you any favors. BUT, this is actually not a bad statement either. See, it's pride-saving time. She is turning a corner, but she's got her pride to keep in doing it. I have a feeling as you move closer she's going to continue making statements like this... like she's doing you a favor. Ignore it. AND DO NOT LET YOUR PRIDE DO THE TALKING. If you do, that door will slam faster than you can blink an eye.
4. Ummm... she's confused and torn because her fantasy is falling to pieces at your feet. Meaning, she felt that she would leave and everything would be fine and dandy. Whatever misery she was going through at home would suddenly evaporate if she left. Well, the misery is probably still there, might even be worse and she hasn't a clue what to do with that. Why we believe that our spouses are any less confused than us, I don't know. They are probably more confused. We are learning to have a plan. We have been given a book with the steps clearly laid out. We are talking to people on a daily basis who help us refine our plans. What are our spouses doing??? They are floating in the wind with little to no anchor.
5.If you are smart, you'd do anything to keep me. But that's just my opinion. " - Now this statement is the most telling of them all. She is telling you something here. If she was trying to get away, she would NEVER EVER EVER EVER make a statement like this. She would be running in another direction and would not be doing anything to spur on behavior that is consider pursuing. They hate pursuing when they make the decision to leave. Well, that doesn't appear to be the case here exactly. She's daring you to come after her with this statement. Very, very interesting.
6. Forget about the OM. He does not figure into this equation right now. You have got to do anything to get this out of your mind. I'm pretty convinced that was more fantasy than anything else. I have a feeling that was more of a safety net after she left than something that had truly developed.
Denver, you're doing awesome. Play it smart. Get on phone with DB coach. I am so cheering for you! I am also praying for you. Hang tough.
LIS
I second everything that has been said here. I will caution you about two things
1. Over confidence
2. Over reacting to anything that you hear or reaching too soon.
Neither will have a favorable response. She has thrown you a life line so proceed intelligently and with patience.
I agree about the OM thing. This is a cause of heartburn for me also but right now your mind needs to be focused on the task at hand. I think MJ is right on the money with his analysis on this.
Lost is also right on the money as usual with her analysis and I would heed her advice.
Do not read too much into the mix messages comment I get those from my W on occasion and at first something as small as that would send my mood south in a hurry. I have learned to tune those out, ignore them and just keep moving forward.
Dude, you are on the cusp of taking a real turn for the better but you are also on the verge of really screwing up. You have gone overboard at times with excitement and luckily they have not been deal killers for you but now is the time to exercise patience and smarts.
I will see you in the success stories soon enough.
You know better than we, but I really do not think much, if any type of A went on. You describe the OM as someone she plays music with, so I get the feeling that there was waaaaaaay more going on in his mind than in hers. She was flattered by him and maybe a bit smitten, but I would seriously doubt if she considered him much more than he really is. JMHO.
B.I.T.S.
I really hope that you are right MJ. I am somewhat embarrassed to continue to harp on this issue, but my mind just won't stop.
My BIGGEST fear, by far, is that I go have dinner with W and she tells me that she is "torn" between coming back to me and our M and OM. I envision her telling me this, and me sitting there and just wanting to cry and throw up. I honestly don't know how I will respond to her if she says this to me.
I know that my mind is working overtime on useless things, but don't I need to be prepared for the absolute worst?
BITS
Denver
WOW, Denver, all good stuff!!!!
Sounds like she wants to come back but is scared. She pushed you away, she said she was done... it probably is scary for her to want to come back but not sure if you want her, if the changes are real and if you guys can make it work.
I think MJ is right on about OM.
Thanks Hope. I'm sure that she IS scared of all of those things. I'm scared too. Yet, I have to be the one who pulls us and our M through this. Some days, I wonder why it has to be that way. Why this is, and has been, so important to me but not my W.
I'm frustrated, nervous, and sad today everyone. Sorry that I'm whining so much today. Just venting I guess.
What, are we in mamby pamby land?
B.I.T.S.
1. I am glad that you went to see the game. I know that was a tough decision, but you made the right one.
Thanks LIS. Your posts always make me feel so much better. I really wish that I could return the favor to you... and everyone.
I hope that was the right decision. I feel that I am moving towards some kind of end game in some respects. Either my W and I will begin to "piece" soon, or I will be back to square one.
I'm not sure that I can continue on this path if I get sent back to square one.
Contradictory statements??? Well, maybe it's just me, but I would be thrilled by those. If she kept insisting it was over and not giving you a glimmer of hope, then I would be more concerned. That is not what's happening. It's time for you to take a walk over to the thread showing people who reconciled. Those people are together and were hearing the same things you are.
I KNOW that I should be happy that I have a glimmer of hope and that she is no longer just telling me that it is over.
I am somewhat embarrassed to be posting here that I am having a hard time today when I know that I am blessed to have so many positives going for me now. This just doesn't get any easier. Some aspects do. Like going home to my empty home... that doesn't make me cry any longer. Like sleeping alone in my bed. That doesn't make me long for my W like it did 2 months ago.
It's the being in limbo that does not get any easier. It's like I am constantly working to not let myself run away from the situation. Run away and just not deal with it any longer. It takes shear will power to want to keep trying. To do what is right. And, again, I sometimes wonder why how it is fair that I have to do all of this work.
3. "Trying to be nice." Ugh, I would love to just tell her not to do you any favors. BUT, this is actually not a bad statement either. See, it's pride-saving time. She is turning a corner, but she's got her pride to keep in doing it. I have a feeling as you move closer she's going to continue making statements like this... like she's doing you a favor. Ignore it. AND DO NOT LET YOUR PRIDE DO THE TALKING. If you do, that door will slam faster than you can blink an eye.
Yeah, trust me, this comment gave my ego a big fat lip.
I think that you are right though LIS. My W has to figure out a way back to me without it looking like she made a huge mistake. At least that's what I hope.
4. Ummm... she's confused and torn because her fantasy is falling to pieces at your feet. Meaning, she felt that she would leave and everything would be fine and dandy. Whatever misery she was going through at home would suddenly evaporate if she left. Well, the misery is probably still there, might even be worse and she hasn't a clue what to do with that. Why we believe that our spouses are any less confused than us, I don't know. They are probably more confused. We are learning to have a plan. We have been given a book with the steps clearly laid out. We are talking to people on a daily basis who help us refine our plans. What are our spouses doing??? They are floating in the wind with little to no anchor.
I think that this is a dead on analysis too. Of course, I could find out that you and I are both wrong... in which case, my world come crashing down on me again.
5.If you are smart, you'd do anything to keep me. But that's just my opinion. " - Now this statement is the most telling of them all. She is telling you something here. If she was trying to get away, she would NEVER EVER EVER EVER make a statement like this. She would be running in another direction and would not be doing anything to spur on behavior that is consider pursuing. They hate pursuing when they make the decision to leave. Well, that doesn't appear to be the case here exactly. She's daring you to come after her with this statement. Very, very interesting.
Yes, this was the most encouraging of all of the words that she has said to me in the past several months.
BW this statement, W saying that she doesn't understand why I haven't "tried to fix things" and my FIL's comments about W not believing that I love her, I feel like I'm getting ready for a big trial where I have to present a case "beyond a reasonable doubt".
I guess that its a good thing that I'm a lawyer, right?
Unfortunately though, this is all beginning to feel like I am getting ready for a big job interview. Not how a M should feel.
6. Forget about the OM. He does not figure into this equation right now. You have got to do anything to get this out of your mind. I'm pretty convinced that was more fantasy than anything else. I have a feeling that was more of a safety net after she left than something that had truly developed.
I really need to know the answer to this before I will have any peace with it. My mind just isn't allowing for me to deal with the negative possibilities.
Thanks again LIS for your uplifting post.
I know that my response probably doesn't reflect it being uplifting, LOL, but it is.
BITS
Denver
What, are we in mamby pamby land?
B.I.T.S.
Thanks MJ! I needed a laugh!
If you have read my posts from this afternoon, you obviously see that I'm having a tough day. I'm sorry for being so whiny folks. I know that I'm blessed with some positives with my situation. I guess that I'm haunted by some "what ifs" and a lot of impatience right now. I have no other place to go vent and get all of this off of my chest.
So yesterday was a good day with W and her family. I was fairly happy with how I handled everything. Today my BIL sent me an email telling me that it was nice to see me and that I "look happy these days" and that even SIL made the same comment after I left. So I know that I did a good job acting "as if" everything is just grand in my world.
If they could only see the slug that I have been today. Woke up thinking about the next steps towards reconciliation with W, questions about what to do with Valentines Day, and the unknown about some of W's comments about being "torn" and "confused". The latter of which sent me into wondering "what if" W tells me that she is "torn" bw our M and OM. This sent me into a tailspin.
Didn't go to work until 1 this afternoon. Wasn't able to focus on anything, so left at 3. To go do what? I guess come here and vent. To let my mind wonder to useless thoughts that serve absolutely no purpose and get me no closer to my goals with W or my own personal happiness.
I have probably posted numerous encouraging posts, with advice that I truly believe, on others' threads today. I kind of feel like a hypocrite in doing so when I am so down and scared about my own situation.
Uggg... sorry everyone. Don't blame you if you stopped reading long ago.
BITS
Denver
Just shows that you are human. Vent away.
((hugs))
Holy jumping jacks it is not a good day to be a BITS! All of our post are the same.
Denver, just keep reminding yourself she is talking to you and some good is coming from it. I have an aunt that left her H after 23 years. She packed, left and handed him a card from her A. She told him if he had anything to say to her, he could say it to her A. Yada yada yada, they are both remarried now. Funny part is that my uncle has a wonderful new W and we all love her. He seems really, really happy. My aunt on the other hand did not fair as well...
OK, the point of all this??? Your W is still very actively engaging you and that is AWESOME! Don't worry about her trying to pawn off the invite on our SIL and BIL. The important part is that the invite was there. Remember what I told you the other night about letting her initiate the first date? She wanted you there, but didn't want to ask. So, she pawned if off on them. So, what! She wanted you there. If she didn't, she would not have mentioned it or showed up to be there with you. See my point here? My W was doing the same things. During my "dark" period, I started getting texts from my MIL. "Happy Birthday," "Happy Veterans Day," "Happy Thanksgiving," and so on. In my 15 years with this family, my MIL never did this. Those message weren't from her! They were from my wife through her. I truly think my W was putting my MIL up to this. Hell, my MIL hates my guts right now. Why in the hell would she send me a bunch of texts? Because she had been instructed to...
Keep it up man! Please, please don't let this slip away. You are so close. I hate to say it, but I think we are all living through you and and a few others on here.
BITS never walk alone!!!
FOBD
Thanks FOBD, 2Step and Sandi. It has been a rough day. Went and a few drinks with my dad and step-mom and now feel a little better. I just needed a change of scenery maybe. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day. For all of us...
BITS
Denver
hi denver
i'm sorry today (or maybe yesterday?) was so tough
i agree with fobd.....you are very close
time is on your side right now, my friend
a year from now, what will these few months matter?
hope you are sleeping well
Update...
My W texted me tonight at 7 or so...
W: "Well, thanks for the help with money the other day. Unfortunately, my student loans accidentally debited me twice today and I will bounce my bills anyway."
I could tell from the tone of the text that she was upset.
Me: "I will call you later. K? It'll be okay."
So, I called her at about 10:15 after I got home from my dad's place. She and step son were on their way home driving through yet another freakin snow storm hitting Denver.
After W told me that she was driving home and some chit chat about the storm, I asked where they had been. She told me that they were at a dinner/jazz club with her music partner Mel watching a big band. Some of the members work with her at the entertainment company that she works for.
She didn't tell me this, so I guess that I don't know for sure, but I do... OM was part of the band. She told me that a "few of the members" work with her and that they were trying to get people out so that they could get this place as a regular gig. I believe her that a few of the members of this band do work with her, but I'm almost positive that OM is one of them.
Anyway, I told her to call me when they were home safely so that she wouldn't be talking while on the road. The whole convo was only about 4 or 5 minutes.
W calls me back about 30 minutes later. We chit chatted about her day, yada yada... she did not ask about mine. She still has shown zero interest with what is going on with me unless it has to do with something that she thinks may be evidence of OW... which there is none.
I ask W what happened with her student loans. She explains the specifics and tells me how her employer, of the entertainment company, might pay her in advance of a show that she is doing in St. Louis this weekend so that she won't have to bounce any checks that she wrote for bills.
I told her "I know that you're not asking me, but I'll help you out if you need it." She told me that she might, that she'd look at her online account later tonight and let me know.
I asked her if she still wanted to go to dinner to talk on Thursday night. She agreed, but said that she'd prefer for it to be earlier rather than later bc she has to pack for her trip and leave early for the airport. We agreed on 6 p.m.
I told her to have a goodnight and to let me know if she needed help with money. She said that she would.
As we were saying goodbye, she said in a very apologetic tone of voice, "Sorry, I know that this is not a reason that you want to be hearing from me."
I didn't really respond to that but told her to just let me know and goodnight.
-------------
I know that it seems that there are some positives with my situation, and maybe there are. And I really don't think that my W's recent attitude is about her using me for money. That has never been her M.O. and she ALWAYS figured this stuff out when she was single and we were just dating. Plus, she has other sources to help her, such as her mom.
BUT, W is beginning to EAT CAKE I think. I guess that we'll see when we have dinner on Thursday.
------
When we got off the phone, I paced around my house breaking down what is happening.
One serious problem that I have, and I have no one to blame but myself for it, is that I painted myself into a corner long ago about how I can be NOW with W while we were married. I was an insensitive a*s a lot of the time about her being responsible for her own finances and just by not being sensitive to what was going on with her or her problems. By always looking at things from a selfish point of view. How her mistakes would affect me.
If I'm like that now, then I'm the same old Denver. I don't want to be that way anymore. And if W and I reconcile I won't be.
The problem lies in that I can't set any boundaries right now. I have to be a doormat without seeming to be a doormat!! Without feeling like a doormat!
Here my W is, bouncing checks left and right, yet she is out spending money going to see this male "friend" playing is some stupid band!! Uhhh!! I guess I don't know that she was spending money, but I'm sure she had a glass of wine or at least something. And the point is that she was out seeing this pr!ck who is NO friend to our M.
Another issue with this money thing is that if we do reconcile, I don't want her finances to be so jacked up that it puts our marital finances in a bad way! What am I suppose to do here?!?!
I think that I've decided that if any of her hesitation, confusion or being "torn" has to do with OM, I am going to tell her to take as much time as she needs and that I'm going to move on.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to be rude or confrontational about it, but I'm going to remind her that she'd tell me to go f myself if the roles were reversed.
If this happens, I'm going back to square one and seriously reassess if I want to continue this fight.
On the other hand, if her confusion is just about being fearful of coming back to the same old M that we had before or fearful that my changes are not real, then I will continue with what I'm doing.
How is it possible to love someone and want them so much yet feel so much anger and hate for them at the same time?
I'm sick of feeling like I'm being drug naked through the streets by a truck doing 80 mph.
Thursday may be the endgame for me.
BITS
Denver
^^^^^^^
W just texted me:
W: "well if I was wise, I'd borrow money from you in the morning. I honestly hate do that, but it would keep me from getting fees... hopefully! Can I swing by in the morning and get a check? I'm thinking about $300."
Me: "That's fine. What time will u be here?"
W: "Well if school is cancelled bc of snow, I can wait until just before the bank opens so I don't wake you. If we don't, I need to come by around 6 or 7."
Me: "Ok. Just call and let me know."
W: "Ok. Thank you so much. I feel like an a*s."
Me: "No worries. Goodnight."
W: "night"
------
I would love to be able to NOT to act "as if" right now. I couldn't care less about the money. But W should feel like an a*s for other reasons right about now...
I'm seriously feeling fed up up with her WAW crap.
BITS
Denver
I have to be a doormat without seeming to be a doormat!! Without feeling like a doormat!
No you do not. Right now you are though. Sorry.
Look at your convos with W. You initiate everything. You offer concern, help at every opportunity.
If she wants to get together for dinner ler her set it.
If she needs help financially let her ask. You vlolunteered.
Why?
Why are you doing this Denver? Guilt? Fear?
She does not have a chance to miss you man. You are there making sure she is safe.
Looking and watching for some kind of sign...
It is not cake eating if she doesn't initiate anything.
You feel it is becuase you're not getting the reslults you want.
Thursday may be the endgame for me.
Is this the hill you're going to die on?
I really see some positives with your W.
I think she really is torn with her decision and that is good for you.
If
You let her figure it out.
If there is OM, she has to reconcile that too.
You set your self up for pain when you ask her what she is doing
now you're creating all sorts of scenarios in your head.
Breathe.
get control.
Let her initiate contact with you.
Denver my friend, I know how ya feel. My wife called me last night and wants to come over tonight to talk. I almost wish it was at a restaurant instead, I have been up since 5 cleaning my house. I am doing the same as you, going over a million scenarios in my head, both good and bad. My dreams were filled with her last night. We need to both just take a deep breath and remember what has gotten us to this point. I know I will be thinking about your unconditional love statements heavily today while my mind torments me with a 100 different outcomes. We need to really listen to them, to let them see we really are not the same old Denver and IW. To let them see that if we do get another chance at M, our changes will not be left behind with these aweful situations. My W has said repeatedly to me that when we've tried in the past that nothing changed, this was all before DR. We know we are not those same H...now let's show them!!
I'll post on my thread tonight how things went. Also, have you ever seen the movie Get Him To The Greek? It has a song in it called Bangers, Beans, and Mash that reminds me of a lot of us including myself.
BITS
Ugh, Denver… Ugh…
I’m going to start at the end of your post, because I think that is what is bothering me most. Why might Thursday be endgame? Is it because your lack of patience is getting the best of you? Or is it because you have decided that you no longer want to be with your W? I have a feeling it is the former. If that is the case, then you need to stop saying these things and sabotaging yourself. Right now, you are doing things for your W in hopes that it will get the reaction you are looking for. Meaning, you have expectations still. Until you are able to stop that, you are going to continue on the roller coaster and you are not always going to make wise decisions. THIS IS NOT THE DENVER I KNOW.
Denver, you speak of unconditional love quite a bit and trying to learn this. Unconditional means exactly that: doing things without the expectation of anything in return – no conditions. However, it doesn’t mean being a doormat. Your W appears to be irresponsible with money. If she was concerned about money, she wouldn’t be hanging out at a bar spending money that she does not have. BUT, and this is a big but, you offered the money. You are there constantly, in fact, to clean up her messes. This isn’t unconditional love either. God loves us unconditionally, but sometimes he forces us to clean up our own messes. He does that for our own good. That is probably what needs to happen for your W right now as she does need to act more responsibly (I don’t want to make you angry for saying that, it’s just the impression I’m getting right now).
Now, with all of that said, I, too, believe there are a lot of positives in your situation. I think that you have an excellent chance of saving this. But you can’t always see this because you are impatient (me too!!!! My worst enemy). I am not bothered as much as others about you initiating the interactions because for the most part she is responding well. But maybe try to wait on her once in awhile. This will help you feel more confident in what you are doing.
Take care and I’m praying for you so hard!!!
LIS
If I'm like that now, then I'm the same old Denver. I don't want to be that way anymore. And if W and I reconcile I won't be.
--------------------------------------------------------------
How is it possible to love someone and want them so much yet feel so much anger and hate for them at the same time?
I'm sick of feeling like I'm being drug naked through the streets by a truck doing 80 mph.
Thursday may be the endgame for me.
Welcome to your Pity Party Denver....
Party of......One ?
You feel this way because you are too focused on the end, instead of the trip....
You feel that you have already made all of your changes and dammit, why can't she see that ???
Every day is a new day to be the Denver you want to be...
DBing isn't to resolve one particular problem, it is a way of life once you implement it.
If she comes home...
Are you gonna forget what you went through and go back to business as usual ?
You said you won't be the same Denver then.....Why wait for something that has not been written yet ?
If she doesn't come home...
Are you gonna mope around and feel sorry for yourself every day ?
These are your choices Denver....yours
Take your focus off of what she is or isn't doing and your vision will become clearer...
You are being drug around because you are letting yourself be drug around...
Put some clothes on and cut the rope....
Have Grit tell you about his jacket he got at the Salvation Army.....
Hey Denver, Buddy ... I'm telling this as much to myself as to you right now ... we are getting let down because our expectations aren't being met.
I feel much like you right now. I thought things were looking up, and then a passing comment from her "I'll always be your friend" .... and I'm torn apart.
In your sitch, it looked like she was considering trying to reconcile ... and then you get your hopes up and you become FIRMLY attached again .... and WHAM ... she hits you with something.
So, we can't control that they keep sending mixed messages. But, we can control how we react to them. I guess you really don't have too much control over her wrecking her finances. And, I think that the women that marry us "fixers" and up resenting the fact that we fix things for them. But, its tough man ... I know it is.
BITS Denver ..... I have your back. And that means I tell you what I think is best even when it isn't what you want to hear. That's what Brothers are for :-)
denver - take a deep breath and concentrate on what you want the outcome of this to be
and then take another and think about your wife and what you know about her
what is the best way to get what you want?
it's easy to be frustrated (you should have seen me spew venom this morning)
but keep your eye on the prize and be patient
now, go make yourself hot!
Mach - Thanks for checking in with my thread.
Welcome to your Pity Party Denver....
Party of......One ?
Yep. I had my party hat out yesterday for sure. Hung over from the party too.
I know that you are right Mach.
You feel this way because you are too focused on the end, instead of the trip....
Yep. Bc the trip isn't very fun Mach. And I've convinced myself that the end is in sight... Deep down, I probably know that it isn't.
You feel that you have already made all of your changes and dammit, why can't she see that ???
Yep. Well, that AND why can't she believe the changes and just go back to being the person that she was before we had all of our problems.
Every day is a new day to be the Denver you want to be...
DBing isn't to resolve one particular problem, it is a way of life once you implement it.
I know Mach. The mind doesn't always do what we want it to do though.
I want 2 things. 1) I do want do be a different person and for DB to be a way of life for me, and 2) I want that to be with my W.
I have a hard time accepting that we DB mainly for the purpose of improving and if we save the M great... if not, oh well. I understand the idea, but I also think that we need to BELIEVE that we are going to save the M.
Of course this is also why I've taken a nose dive in the past 24 hours.
If she comes home...
Are you gonna forget what you went through and go back to business as usual ?
You said you won't be the same Denver then.....Why wait for something that has not been written yet ?
Absolutely not to the first question. The second question is a very good one that I'm going to take to heart and use to try and change my attitude around.
If she doesn't come home...
Are you gonna mope around and feel sorry for yourself every day ?
No. I will bet over it and be happy again Mach.
These are your choices Denver....yours
Take your focus off of what she is or isn't doing and your vision will become clearer...
You are being drug around because you are letting yourself be drug around...
Put some clothes on and cut the rope....
I am working on it. I know that you are correct.
Have Grit tell you about his jacket he got at the Salvation Army.....
I read all of Grit's threads and remember the Salvation Army post.
It was a very good analogy and very good advice... as is most everything that Grit says.
Thanks again man. I appreciate the 2x4s... I really do.
I have a hard time accepting that we DB mainly for the purpose of improving and if we save the M great... if not, oh well. I understand the idea, but I also think that we need to BELIEVE that we are going to save the M.
Oh Yeah! I'm so there with you Denver.
I know Mach. The mind doesn't always do what we want it to do though.
Make it a decision....choose it every day...
I know it sounds easier said than done, but it isn't that hard...
That choice, made daily, will become a habit, then a lifestyle....
Consistent actions over time....
I want 2 things. 1) I do want do be a different person and for DB to be a way of life for me, and 2) I want that to be with my W.
I'm with ya on both choices...
Absolutely not to the first question. The second question is a very good one that I'm going to take to heart and use to try and change my attitude around.
Get up, dust off, and get back on bro...
but I also think that we need to BELIEVE that we are going to save the M.
You don't?
That's on you man. All you.
I got through this, by not ignoring statistics, but by accepting no other number in say....1 in 10,000,000 than the 1.
Statisics in relationships are just about luck, but by how you influence and affect that number.
What number are you Denver?
edit - m#$%er f#$%ing edit button...
Statisics in relationships aren't just about luck, but by how you influence and affect that number.
but I also think that we need to BELIEVE that we are going to save the M.
You don't?
That's on you man. All you.
I got through this, by not ignoring statistics, but by accepting no other number in say....1 in 10,000,000 than the 1.
Statisics in relationships aren't just about luck, but by how you influence and affect that number.
What number are you Denver?
I think that is what I was saying J3B. I hear so much talk on this forum that seems to discount the importance of why we came here in the first place, i.e., to save our M or R.
I do NOT at all disagree with the idea that we should also embrace the notion that going through this process CAN make us better people, and better S's for the future, if we choose to really work at it. But to pretend that this is why we came here is simply ignoring the reality of the situation of most of us. I mean I found this website when I googled "how to save marriage after separation' or something like that. I didn't google "how to become a better person after divorce", or "how to make myself feel better after wife decides to hate you".
I was just pointing out that I am working towards 2 goals. 1) to save my M (the original purpose for coming here), and 2) to become a better person.
I think that the problem lies in the fact that when we choose to focus on both of those goals. We may see success on the 'becoming a better person' goal, but not see success on the goal of saving the M. Just bc we can feel wonderful about the success on the former, does not mean that we are not going to hurt and feel devastated about failing on the latter.
I do BELIEVE that I will save my M. I do BELIEVE that my M will be stronger once I have saved it bc of this process and the changes that I have made as a person. If I don't BELIEVE these things, I might as well go to another self help website to just focus on the other goal. I feel that if I don't BELIEVE that I will be successful that I am doomed to fail.
This attitude, which for me is essential for my success here, has an unfortunate side effect... It creates hopes and expectations. It is a waste of time, IMO, to pretend that it does not. Hope and expectation, when they are not met, can cause pain. Everyone here is going to feel that pain if they fail at saving the M. Even if they are successful at learning about themselves and becoming better people.
I just don't like pretending that it is otherwise.
P.S. At least you have an edit button J3B!
Oh boy, Denver, it is brave for you to speak such truth. Our primary goal when embarking on this was to save our marriages. To say otherwise, in most cases, is simply not true.
Also, I completely agree that if we keep the faith and believe that we are going to save our M, we cannot help but feel let down when things don't go in that direction.
I think that this is where the advice about forgetting about the M for right now and just work on ourselves comes in. It's just downright scary to do that.
I have nothing to offer here other than I struggle with the same circle jerk that you do.
However, J3B, really got me thinking tonight. I mean we are already defying the statistics... Many of us have managed to at least delay a divorce for awhile. There will be more than a few of us who will manage to save our marriages because of the tools taught here. So, that's good news. Many people don't have that. I feel your struggles, Denver. I absolutely feel them.
I'm praying for you.
LIS
I hear AND more importantly I understand you Denver.
No one came here to learn how to become a better person you're right. I truly believe that becoming a better person offers the best chance to save a marriage the fundamental key...because while the goal is to stop a divorce...if you end it there, rest on your laurels...you failed.
You come out of this a better person, and you can hold their hand while they grow...slowly and you both build to become a better couple.
P.S. At least you have an edit button J3B!
I won't use it until everyone can again. : )
denver, i am so with you on that last paragraph
i'm so sorry
you sound very down today
wasn't it just a few days ago that we were all feeling great??
i have had a few bad days and i am resolving that tomorrow will be better
i resolve that it will be better for you as well
no matter what the outcome, we will get through this
i wish i believed that i will save my marriage
he has told me too many times in the past few days that his reconsidering is not an option
sorry to vent on your page
we do need to stay the course and try to stay positive
what do we have to lose by doing that?
xoxo
PS - I bet DBMod asks you to make a new thread.
I have to be a doormat without seeming to be a doormat!! Without feeling like a doormat!
No you do not. Right now you are though. Sorry.
Look at your convos with W. You initiate everything. You offer concern, help at every opportunity.
If she wants to get together for dinner ler her set it.
If she needs help financially let her ask. You vlolunteered.
Why?
Why are you doing this Denver? Guilt? Fear?
Not guilt. Fear? Maybe. Fear that she will view me as the same insensitive guy that I was during much of our R, and almost all of our last 10 months together.
Isn't that a legit fear Grit? As I wrote that, I could already hearing you tell me to let go of my fear. But what I'm saying is, shouldn't I fear, or maybe a better way to phrase it would be, shouldn't I be concerned that W will not see how I have recognized things about myself that need change and that I have worked to change those things? If she doesn't see these things, then her reason for leaving me is validated, she stays gone, and ultimately my M ends.
I am concerned that this will happen if I continue to tow the LRT method at this juncture. At the same time, I recognize that it is a fine line to walk and I haven't walked it perfectly over the past week or two.
She does not have a chance to miss you man. You are there making sure she is safe.
Looking and watching for some kind of sign...
It is not cake eating if she doesn't initiate anything.
You feel it is becuase you're not getting the reslults you want.
I am making sure that she is safe Grit. I care about her man. I am a 'fixer'. Always have been. I know that it is not healthy. I know what you are saying, I do. As the fantasy of her WAW plan comes crashing down, I am protecting her. But again, if I don't take some action to protect her, then I am the same a*s she left in the first place.
Obviously I'm struggling with where I'm at in this process Grit. I appreciate your questions as they are making me really think things out. They are challenging me for sure.
But let me ask you something Gritter. And please don't take this as me discounting anything you are saying. I just want to hear what your thought process would be if you were in my shoes here.
I have read the entirety of all of your threads. I know where your sitch stands right now and I also think that I understand many of the things that you learned along the way. SO much of it has been a savior to me. But one thing that you seem to have concluded for yourself is that if your W came to you now and wanted to reconcile, that you are unsure if you would want to do that unless she has gone through a similar process and also learned much of what you have learned about yourself. I think that you consider yourself somewhat enlightened, as you should. But you believe that your W probably is not. BUT, you also found in your process what the meaning of unconditional love is to you... and what your vows mean to you.
How would you reconcile those 2 ideas? 1) Not sure about reconciliation with W bc of where she is at in life, and 2) loving her unconditionally and wanting to be true to your word?
What if your W came to you right now, and, as mine has, gave you an indication that there are thoughts of reconciliation in her mind and heart? What would you do? What would you do if what your W needed for that to grow into something more was some affirmation that you still want her? Would you continue to make her initiate all contact?
My point is, isn't there a certain point where you have to recognize that DB and, specifically, LRT, has worked, has gotten you to a certain point, and finally, that you need to do some things that may be considered pursuit in order to move farther towards M reconciliation?
Sorry if this is too personal Grit. I really respect the way that you process this stuff. These are things that I think bother me about my situation and I've been wanting to ask you to see how you would answer.
Thursday may be the endgame for me.
Is this the hill you're going to die on?
I really see some positives with your W.
I think she really is torn with her decision and that is good for you.
If
You let her figure it out.
If there is OM, she has to reconcile that too.
You set your self up for pain when you ask her what she is doing
now you're creating all sorts of scenarios in your head.
Breathe.
get control.
Let her initiate contact with you.
No, I think that I am reconsidering my 'endgame' comment from last night. It is not the hill that I want to die on.
For whatever reason, and for one of the few times during my situation, I was feeling some real anger.
Thanks again Gritter.
[quote=Jack_Three_Beans]
You come out of this a better person, and you can hold their hand while they grow...slowly and you both build to become a better couple.
[quote]
I love this J3B... Absolutely love it.
Thank you.
Ugh, Denver… Ugh…
I’m going to start at the end of your post, because I think that is what is bothering me most. Why might Thursday be endgame? Is it because your lack of patience is getting the best of you? Or is it because you have decided that you no longer want to be with your W? I have a feeling it is the former. If that is the case, then you need to stop saying these things and sabotaging yourself. Right now, you are doing things for your W in hopes that it will get the reaction you are looking for. Meaning, you have expectations still. Until you are able to stop that, you are going to continue on the roller coaster and you are not always going to make wise decisions. THIS IS NOT THE DENVER I KNOW.
Everything that you said is right on the money LIS. Yes, I was frustrated, and even angry, last night. I called Thursday the 'endgame'. I don't think that it will be. Sometimes, I just need to vent. I haven't finished my journey yet. There are hills and valleys yet to encounter. Last night was just one of the valleys.
BITS
Denver
Denver - Sorry to hear that you are having a rough few days. Why are we all seeming to have a bad week?
I think you need to re-group. Your imagination is getting the best of you. Your W doesn't want to let you in full force at the moment. Practice patience. Continue to give her space and I know it [censored] big time. I'm a "fixer" too - I think most women are. So when I heard from my H's brother that my H is making bad choices don't you think I wanted to inquire more? Without a doubt. Because I thought if I knew, I could maybe fix it. WRONG!!! And I didn't indilge for more info. If he's continuing to make bad choices and I am making good choices, people will see that and I will be representing myself better each day. Maybe it will even get back to him how much I've changed. It's like good prevails over evil - healthy prevails over unhealthy.
Our WAS are invaded by body snatchers. I don't like the fact that it seems she's taking advantage of your kindness. I think you need to detach a little more. She can't expect you to always be there to pick up her mess. It's not fair to you.
Keep in mind, you cannot jump right into a reconcilation becuase if she hasn't done any work to get herself better it won't matter how much work you've done. The M is destined to only be more of the same. Reconnection first. Start of being friends again. Like Michele says, you have learn to crawl before you walk. it [censored] having things go at snails pace. Patience is not a word that I had in my personal dictionary, but it sure is there now.
I have high hopes for you Denver. I already know that I'm not going to be one of the lucky ones; for now. But I consider myself a very loyal friend and I will always have your back.
(((HUGS)))
That was just awesome Gypsy! Thank you. I feel the same about you and all of the other BITS and BIDETS!
And all very excellent points. I may not always follow the advice that I get from you guys, but hearing it all keeps me grounded, thinking and on my toes!
Lastly, I just want to report that my attitude is much better tonight. Sorry for throwing the pity party last night, as Mach so accurately pointed out.
I know what I need to do... how to do it... but sometimes, it is still hard.
BITS
Denver
NEW THREAD
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2128214#Post2128214Grit, LIS, and Gypsy... responses to you guys here! Grit... really curious about your response to my response.
Thanks again to everyone for the support, advice, prayers, and good vibes!
whoops... meant to say that my responses to you guys are here on the 'lighthouse' thread... not the new one.
Sorry
I know Mach. The mind doesn't always do what we want it to do though.
Make it a decision....choose it every day...
I know it sounds easier said than done, but it isn't that hard...
That choice, made daily, will become a habit, then a lifestyle....
Consistent actions over time....
I want 2 things. 1) I do want do be a different person and for DB to be a way of life for me, and 2) I want that to be with my W.
I'm with ya on both choices...
Absolutely not to the first question. The second question is a very good one that I'm going to take to heart and use to try and change my attitude around.
Get up, dust off, and get back on bro...
Thanks Mach!
I have!! Feeling much better tonight. Thanks again for the 2x4...