It's 9:00 AM and I just got served.
Here we go.
I am so sorry, Pickle. {{{Hugs}}}
There isn't much to say to that. You knew it was going to be a tough day. All I can say is that divorce is a piece of paper and this isn't over until you say it is.
I wish I had words of comfort for you... You're in my prayers.
I'm so sorry, Pickle. As someone who has filed for divorce myself (and am now still happily married), I can tell you that it's NOT over yet, so don't lose hope. Also, statistics show that 20% of divorced couples end up RE-MARRYING EACH OTHER, with most reporting that their marriages are better than they ever were before.
Time to work on YOU -- that's the way you have to look at this.
Hang in there,
Starsky
TimeHels wrote:
"I think you get into trouble when you drag in the MLC as a key caveat that obscures all the particulars. It's the particulars that matter: stressors, ego-integrity, and so on.
I can't, for example, point to a wealth of recent logitudinal studies that support the actual existence of what you are calling a midlife crisis.
I can, on the other hand, point to studies like Susan Krauss Whitbourne's and many others that directly contradict popular assumptions (popular among the general public, but not so much with research Psychologists) supporting the midlife crisis as common feathre of adult development. In fact, pshychologists commonly regard that diagnosis and model as 'not helpful'."
end quote.
Okay, so what are you trying to say?
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Sorry to hear that Pickle. Keep your head up. Things will be better for you soon enough... one way or the other.
BITS
Denver
It's 9:00 AM and I just got served.
Here we go.
I'm so sorry Pickle. Breathe deep and don't react. Stay with your BITS buddies here to get your plan, AFTER you are done venting.
It doesn't have to be the end, it's just a detail.
Im soooo sorry to hear this news Pickle! I'm praying for you. It's not over yet....its just a piece of paper...GOD is the only one who know the outcome. So, just put your focus on him today...
Hey Pickle, sorry to hear the news...I guess at least you saw it coming.
Find a happy place right now, go out with friends or do something to take your mind off it.
I can only imagine how I would react, so I'm giving you the advice I believe that I would give myself.
Take care,
BITS
SIC
Not sure anything that we can say will help right now, but just know that there is a TON of support here for you. Your pain is our pain, amigo. This is just one shot fired in the battle. The battle is not over until YOU fire the last shot.
B.I.T.S.
Thanks for the support everyone.
Been feeling like crap today.
Wish I didn't have to go home,
but D17 is in a school play tonight at 7:00 PM
Got an appt with atty Monday afternoon
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I read it already Coach.
(((hugs))) too. I am sooo sorry. Praying for you right now....praying for you to have the strength, to be guided on what to say and do.
I probably will not have anything to post until after my meeting with atty on Monday.
I'll be spending my weekend gathering disclosure info and preparing for the atty.
Have a great weekend everybody.
Try to have a good weekend Pickle.
Keep a level head.
Well, I lied.
Got some journaling/venting to do.
Yesterday after work I was taking a cat nap on the bed.
W strolls in and shuts the door, fuming.
Said D17 overheard our fight the night of 1/24.
W says D17 is worried about selling the house and having to move.
I gave the mantra, "These are the consequences of your choices".
Then she starts venomously accusing me of trying to hurt her but I am only going to hurt the kids. I couldn't get a word in edgewise. I did let her know I couldn't live with her in a R with an OM. If spliting up involves selling the house, that's it. So she says I could re-finance and afford to keep it. Mind you, the papers are full of legaleze, and I don't know how much of a buy out she wants. So I stood my ground, but it appears W is resigned to the possibility she'll have to move out, 'cause I wont, let have her cake. Then she gets into how the kids will prefer to be with her, and she does all their stuff, kind of fishing for me to give up the house. That ended in a stalemate.
Alright, this morning she comes out and starts again with the venom. (The other night 1/24 in my anger I called her a piece of crap, she has a problem with that.) She doesnt like my playing "Evil Woman" by ELO. I said I was being passive agressive. I said I didn't have a dictionary handy, "What do you call someone who pursues a R with an OP while still married?" "What's the word for that.?" Oh man, we're getting into war of the roses stuff.
Again she has a problem with selling the house, making the kids choose, making the kids have to move blah blah. Finally the agrument gets to the OM. She insists her decision to D has nothing to do with him. I say, "where is your intuition? It was always about him for me." She says the D is about our "lack of a marriage." I said I accept responsibility for 50% of that, but none of responsibility for the EA.
Then I screwed up.
I said you lied when you said wouldn't be going to see him all the time, you're planning another trip in Feb. She put's 2&2 together and say's I've been in her email, "that's illegal". I said yes, "LBS's snoop, that's what we do." She's already taking me to court anyway right? I told her, "if you don't get an annulment, I'll always be your H and you'll always be cheating on me." Then she drops this one, "It's only cheeting if it's behind your back." Huh? Then she doesn't want to listen anymore, and walks off in a huff.
Some moments later she's back. I cut her off and called OM a predator, I asked. "How did he find you, he didn't know your married last name?" She walks off again. She's got revising history and justifying down to a science, but I think her fantasy is beginning to crumble.
Then she drops this one, "It's only cheating if it's behind your back." Huh?
Just call it what it is....."adultery". Maybe she'll know the definition of that word.
"These are the consequences of your choices".
Pickle you are not going to get anywhere using logic on her.
That is why our advice has been to detach and not get dragged into these discussions.
They go NOWHERE but to Bitterville.
Stand your ground on what is fair in the D. If she wants one she will get one.
You can't stop that.
I am going to give you some words I picked up along the way:
W, I've told you before that I still love you and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I've not changed my mind on that. But I understand you are not happy, that you do not feel happy or complete inside.
You need to do what will make you happy. By my side, we live as partners, we share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team.
I won't stand in your way. But I also will not help you leave this marriage or this family. And I will never accept another person being a part of our life together.
I hope you find the happiness you are looking for. Go do what you need to do. You know where I will be.
Then leave her alone.
It is not the natural thing to do but it is the healthiest.
"These are the consequences of your choices".
Pickle you are not going to get anywhere using logic on her.
That is why our advice has been to detach and not get dragged into these discussions.
They go NOWHERE but to Bitterville.
Stand your ground on what is fair in the D. If she wants one she will get one.
You can't stop that.
I am going to give you some words I picked up along the way:
W, I've told you before that I still love you and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I've not changed my mind on that. But I understand you are not happy, that you do not feel happy or complete inside.
You need to do what will make you happy. By my side, we live as partners, we share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team.
I won't stand in your way. But I also will not help you leave this marriage or this family. And I will never accept another person being a part of our life together.
I hope you find the happiness you are looking for. Go do what you need to do. You know where I will be.
Then leave her alone.
It is not the natural thing to do but it is the healthiest.
Bravo.
Starsky
"These are the consequences of your choices".
Pickle you are not going to get anywhere using logic on her.
That is why our advice has been to detach and not get dragged into these discussions.
They go NOWHERE but to Bitterville.
Stand your ground on what is fair in the D. If she wants one she will get one.
You can't stop that.
I am going to give you some words I picked up along the way:
W, I've told you before that I still love you and still think that we can have a great life together as both a couple and a family. I've not changed my mind on that. But I understand you are not happy, that you do not feel happy or complete inside.
You need to do what will make you happy. By my side, we live as partners, we share everything and we would do anything to help one another. But that's only if we continue as a team.
I won't stand in your way. But I also will not help you leave this marriage or this family. And I will never accept another person being a part of our life together.
I hope you find the happiness you are looking for. Go do what you need to do. You know where I will be.
I used these exact words with my W and it worked really well Pickle.
It seems beyond time for those words Grit.
We cannot have a civil discusion without venom and button pushing leading directly to anger and a remake of "War of the Roses."
I'll not say anymore to her until after consultation with my atty. on Monday.
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Silent treatment the rest of this weekend. I hope she's pondering what she's giving up for the OM (ie. predator), who is in Ohio and married. WTF?
Let me ask you guys: how do you find someone's email whom you knew 25 years ago and you don't know their married last name or where they are? (W does not have a Facebook)
Alright, this morning she comes out and starts again with the venom. (The other night 1/24 in my anger I called her a piece of crap, she has a problem with that.) She doesnt like my playing "Evil Woman" by ELO. I said I was being passive agressive. I said I didn't have a dictionary handy, "What do you call someone who pursues a R with an OP while still married?" "What's the word for that.?" Oh man, we're getting into war of the roses stuff.
Of course she has a problem with that. Pickle, you have to make repairs on this kind of thing..there can be no good outcome to this kind of 'war'.
Of course she has a problem with that. Pickle, you have to make repairs on this kind of thing..there can be no good outcome to this kind of 'war'.
I know, I know.
I just can't handle being bombed, cheated on, and served D papers, boom, boom, boom.
I think the only way we can civilly communicate is through our lawyers now.
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You know dbmod, those titles were recommended on these very boards a few weeks back.
Pickle-
You can still turn this around if you want to, and you control yourself.
Pickle
I know it seems there is no way to win in this right now.
You are in a war because you keep fighting her.
You keep fighting what she wants. That is not you or your M right now.
She thinks you aren't listening to her and you haven't been.
I am not saying to agree with her on this other man crap. But that is still HER choice.
If you lay down your gun...
Will she keep firing away?
You control YOU Pickle
and that is all you control.
You want the animosity to stop you CAN stop it.
And should stop it regardless of the outcome of your M.
I understand your anger but it is not getting you or your family anywhere but to a world of hurt.
I disagree with you about the words I suggested.
It states where you are, it is not confrontational, it states that you will live by the only thing you control, and leaves the ball in her court. You validate that she has her own choices to make and is free to make them.
It's not mean or spiteful.
If you don't say it to her that's fine, but read the words ...
It is a different perspective than the one you currently have.
I disagree with you about the words I suggested.
It states where you are, it is not confrontational, it states that you will live by the only thing you control, and leaves the ball in her court. You validate that she has her own choices to make and is free to make them.
It's not mean or spiteful.
If you don't say it to her that's fine, but read the words ...
It is a different perspective than the one you currently have.
I agree with Truegritter Pickle. I used those on my W about a month ago and it really worked for me. It let my W know where I stood and put all of the onus on her to destroy our M and family. Saying it also helped my attitude towards the whole thing.
BITS
Denver
Dmod - My posts are NOT showing, as usual. Can I get a little love?
Pickle-
Advertising is not allowed, and especially those items that we feel are not inline with DB principles. We do not catch everything, so you may find references elsewhere on the board, but they will be removed as they are found.
I think my W knows where I stand.
I have told her I think the M can be saved.
She knows I told D17 "I want to save my M".
D17 told her so.
Though the words are not the same, the message is.
W is a very stubborn, pigheaded person.
I get the sense she will fight just from spite,
because deep inside she knows.
Pickle, when you fight fire with fire it gets worse. That's from my D12, during the early part of my sitch when I was accusing my H of everything your W is guilty of. Let me tell you a story: when my D12 was around 3-4 yrs old, I once told her to put away her toys. She refused. I threatened to throw away her toys if she did not. She still refused. I went to bed fuming at my hardheaded little daughter, determined to carry out my threat. When I awoke, the floor was clear of toys. Imagine my surprise though when I found them in the trash! Now I had to search for another way, maybe a gentler way, to discipline her, as she effectively took away my weapon!
If when she spews venom, you do not fight back, she will then find that it is ineffective. You take away her weapons.
At this point, can you just let a day or two pass where you retreat into each others room, have a "do not disturb" sign on your door or something, so you can think and not be in each others face?
I don't see anyting wrong in your stance where you say you cannot live with her while she is carying on an affair. That is very painful. Let her know that it would hurt you and since she started this in the first place, she should give consideration to your feelings as well. But to call her names will just close her mind to whatever you are saying.
Also, think of how abnormal this situation will be for your kids. That is what I told my H as well ... remember he wanted the same things as your W?
But ultimately, it is her choice, with conditions from your side, if you so wish, and can apply.
Divorce takes time, so you still have time to plant the seeds of doubt i her mind... Also, you can contest the divorce or whatever it takes to buy more time, I guess. Don't know uch about that yet. Hope never to need to know.
Unless inside you you really want her gone already. And I don't blame you if you do, but again, we are all here to save the family and not give up.
Sorry for all my typos....just had my nails done....
Thanks for the input Angel.
All of you are right of course.
I just have a hard time when my buttons get pushed.
I get the sense that W is so lost and stubborn that it might be best for her to be gone, before anything changes inside her, like her feelings for me or OM.
She's always been a restless spirit, never content unless planning something or involved in something or at a party or on a trip - she could never sit still - always looking for something to make her happy, for that elusive "happiness".
I truly wonder if the only way she'll ever realize that I am not the source of her misery is if I am no longer in the picture. And believe me, at this juncture in the sitch, she is quite misrable.
And yet - even though her fantasy is being shaken, I appear to be the cause, but she is just pigheaded enough to suffer having to move to a shabby little apt. by herself simply to justify her liberty.
Journaling:
I have my first consultation with an Atty at 3:30 PM EST today.
Having a low seratonin day today.
Cook up some Chicken Parmesan Alfredo! Carbs and leans meet help to boost seratonin levels! Not to mention it tastes great!
Although probably best to hit the gym hard after the fact!
Good luck at the atty!
Ran 2 miles today.
Met with atty.
Have 16 more days to respond to disclosure requests.
I have to fill out an income and expenses worksheet.
What a pain, but I'm going down swinging.
Atty says W cannot afford the house even with child support (CS).
I can't afford it myself if I have to pay CS.
Only option to save it is to refinance.
W did not demand alimony, which is huge.
And she did not make any claim on my IRA (which I had before we met and did not make any contributions to during the M)
So that's good, unless she changes her mind which she's apt to do, I think she's resigned to having to kiss the house goodbye.
One aspect of the looney fantasy about to crumble.
I firmly believe that the sooner she's gone, the sooner she might realize what she's lost.
No expectations though.
I apolgized to W today for the fighting.
Pickle,
I feel for you brother. I haven't posted on your thread in a while, but I am keeping up on it. Hang tough. I get a feeling that I am not too far behind you. This is not over until you say it is over. Things may look grim right now, but there is always hope as long as you hold onto it. I say this as much for myself as I do for you. Stay strong.
B.I.T.S.
W actually spoke to me after I apologised for the fighting. Just a one/two word(s) kind of thing, but it beats silent treatment.
I said let's end the war of the roses stuff and do what's best for the kids.
I'll give her a day or so before offering any other olive branches. We have to go to a mandatory parenting class - together or not. She also needs my help to change her aol pw - gotta wait till she's way, way calmed down to do that.
I gave all the evidence of the A I had collected from my snooping to my atty. She said although "no fault" means you can get a D any time you want, it doesn't necessarily mean you discount infidelity altogether when it comes to settling terms and mediating. But atty said she will not bring it up (reveal) unless absolutely necessary. I have a couple of other cards to play if W changes her mind and gets more demanding, though I have a feeling she wants the kids to have their bedrooms, and they can only have that with me. Unless of course she ends the A in which case I'll gladly be her room mate.
I was reluctant to share this because I cannot tell if it's just my imagination and wishful thinking playing tricks on me. But a few nights ago whilst in the chapel praying, I felt God telling me that "ONLY out of the smoke of destruction will she be able to come out of the fog." I assume that meant the dissolution of our civil marriage (remember we're catholic) and the subsequent affect on her lifestyle and quality of life in general. BUt then again it could have been just my imagination.
Thanks for all the prayers.
BITS
Hi Pickle,
It doesn't work in this order:
1) she wakes up
2) you both agree to work on the marriage
3) you both make changes
4) your marriage is saved
It's most likely to work in this order:
1) you wake up to the fact your changes come first
2) you make changes and attract her back
3) she wakes up from the fog because you're so doggone amazing
4) she wants to come back
5) you tread slowly, as she makes her changes
6) your marriage is saved
7) you BOTH keep your changes going
I hope you start now, because it isn't too late. But you have a speeding truck going. Put the brakes on.
This is not over until you say it is over.
Absolutely correct.
I felt God telling me that "ONLY out of the smoke of destruction will she be able to come out of the fog."
You seem to hear your true heart when you are quiet Pickle.
I think HE works in HIS own way
Listen to your voice when you are quiet.
As I have mentioned to you it helped me a great deal when I was going through this part.
Don't walk away from the M, rather, walk toward something new.
I said let's end the war of the roses stuff and do what's best for the kids.
Still your words talking instead of your actions....
I'll give her a day or so before offering any other olive branches.
Why don't you show her that instead of speaking it ?
You have gotten some really good advice, yet nothing changes....
You are still looking for her to "snap out of it" and see the error of her ways....
Still looking toward her to validate you...
Do better Pickle....
Stay strong Pickle. I totally relate to almost wanting W to leave NOW so she can go live this fantasy life and I have an easier time moving on with mine. "You said you wanted out ... so get out already"
But, I keep my mouth shut mostly. Anyway, I'm there with you but I haven't had to face an OM situation.
Just thinking out loud.
I'm home today, groggy from anesthesia.
Had a routine colonoscopy this AM: my reward for turning 50.
Anywhoo, I've been thinking about the $ impact of the D and it's gonna put a real strain on the whole fam.
So I'm again torn about forcing W out because of the impact on the kids: emotional and financial.
But letting W stay in the home while she conducts her long dist. EA. sends what kind of message to the kids? Of course I have not exposed, so is it moot? (my close friends know though)
What this all boils down to is fear:
fear of having to make ends meet with roughly only half the income,
fear of what W's lifestyle will be like when she's D and home,
fear of sending the wrong message to everyone about putting up with EA.
It seems as if any way you look at the sitch we all lose.
I already put my foot down, so backing down because of $ for the kids would make me "meltyman" and also full of resentment.
Looks like I am answering my own question here.
It ucksays to be poor. Because of the precedure I had today and my health insurance deductible, another $1600 has just been added to our combined debt. Add both our atty retainers $2500 + 3500 and you get W's urge to want out of the M costing us all a small fortune.
Anybody got any ideas?
No real idea Pickle, but I just wanted to say that I don't think you should allow money to be a "major" factor in these decisions because ultimately I think you won't necessarily make the best decisions if you put too much focus on the money.
To be honest I wouldn't I really even thought about it, except that the last R talk I had with my W, she said she's really struggling with her "decision" because she's worried about if/how she will be able to afford to go it on her own.
I guess when she spoke to her sister, that is the biggest concern her sister had...all this makes me worry that more she worries about her lifestyle the less she will be worried about "taking" more from me.
She originally said this was her choice, so she didn't think it was fair that I would lose out financially. So she wouldn't ask for the full child support amount (because she believed it was too much, approx. $1650 a month) and ailmoney because again she doesn't want me to "support her". Once the reality of the whole sitch hits her, she may change her mind in order to maintain her lifestyle at my cost.
My point in all this though, is that you and your W (as much as possible) need to be as clear as possible on the decisons you make, being sure that you are doing what YOU truly believe is right regardless of the money involved.
Your W might think twice once she is in a crummy apt or room by herself - realize all that she is giving up to keep the OM relationship. I read a post that says they won't realize what they have done until they miss you.
I firmly believe that staying in the same home while having OM is cake eating. Also, that will keep her from missing you.
It probably doesn't apply to everyone, but for me....it was all about freedom. There was nothing in my house that I cared to take with me and I didn't care what crummy place I lived as long as I could get away from H. Crazy, huh? The things that had always meant so much to me suddenly had no value b/c I was a different person.
I guess we can't always say what would work for another person. I think "if" I had ever left my house that my pride would have been very tough to overcome enough to go back. Besides, my H said there would be "no going back home" if I left. Anyway, I didn't leave......and we are still together and OM has loooooong since left the life of this W.
I believe there are some cases that it would be best if the WS was told to leave. It puts everything into perspective real fast. OTOH, I would not advise it unless the LBS knew they could stick to it. Doesn't make a good bluff. (Not that that's what you're suggesting.)
1. I don't see how YOU could possibly have a happy life with a XW living in your home. You need to choose to proceed by determining how YOU can find happiness again for YOURSELF.
2. Your W is NOT going to come to her senses until and unless she gets what she wants, i.e., out of her M to you. Part of that M is sharing a home with you. I can't see any positives coming out of continuing to share your home with an XW... but I can multiple possible positives coming out of giving her what she wants right now... including W possibly, at some point, saying to herself "WTF did I do!" and running back to you. M is a package deal IMO... don't give her part of the package if she doesn't want all of it.
I'm not saying that you give into your fears Pickle. I'm saying that you need to do the thing that will bring you happiness. We only have one shot at this life. Do you want to spend the next 6 years (your son is 12) living with this version of your W... or, possibly, an even worse version?
Just my two cents.
BITS
Denver
Thanks, everyone.
I think I knew all along what I have to do.
Sandi, just curious. You said you were "a different person" when all you cared about was leaving. How did you change or what made you want to stay?
I've been thinking about the $ impact of the D and it's gonna put a real strain on the whole fam.
So I'm again torn about forcing W out because of the impact on the kids: emotional and financial.
I'm thinkin you should take a closer look at this...
Most of the time, when conflicting thoughts are surrounding us...
We tend to look for a crutch to lean on. Something, mostly any lame excuse to not do what is best for ourselves. That fear of the unknown can be paralyzing. And we grasp onto something "known" or what we are used to knowing , so that we don't stare down that barrel....
What this all boils down to is fear:
fear of having to make ends meet with roughly only half the income,
fear of what W's lifestyle will be like when she's D and home,
fear of sending the wrong message to everyone about putting up with EA.
It seems as if any way you look at the sitch we all lose.
I already put my foot down, so backing down because of $ for the kids would make me "meltyman" and also full of resentment.
Looks like I am answering my own question here.
Yes, it seems you did answer your own question.
If you really look at it...
How much different would you be reacting if she left on her own and you were forced to handle these things on your own ?
Try to remove what her life may or may not look like. Stay inside your own head with these decisions.
I would imagine that you would go into "panic" mode until you formulated a plan. Then things would settle down a bit and you could take a step without that fear.
It ucksays to be poor. Because of the precedure I had today and my health insurance deductible, another $1600 has just been added to our combined debt. Add both our atty retainers $2500 + 3500 and you get W's urge to want out of the M costing us all a small fortune.
Anybody got any ideas?
You could do your own procedure......jus sayin
You could do your own procedure......jus sayin
LMAO! LOL
Pickle .... sometimes I am finding that I need to be quiet for awhile and just work thru my thoughts to find what I think is the right next step. We're here for you as you figure that out!
I was in the chapel again last night,
complaining to God about the sitch, W and everything else.
And I felt Him say to me "There is progress which you cannot see, that only I see."
But that could mean anything between miraculous scales dropping from her eyes tomorrow to many, many years of being divorced.
So, I've got that going for me.
There is progress which you cannot see, that only I see."
My take on this Pickle? Stop watching. Stop looking.
Let go and let God.
But that could mean anything between miraculous scales dropping from her eyes tomorrow to many, many years of being divorced.
Or flying blue donkeys that fart rainbows...
You are right your W is not the person you married right now.
She is lost and she is searching for happiness in empty and hollow places.
Don't follow her there.
Let her walk there on her own. As you have walked through this process so far on your own.
And what have you gained so far?
Would you rather she come back to the family out of guilt for the children or destroying the family
or
Because she has completed a maturing process that we all have to make ...
It is tougher for some than others.
You are in your own process of this. Your own journey.
The progress you may not see may be things you are not looking at in yourself.
Can your love for your W encompass letting her go right now?
Without anger or resentment?
When you cease to look at yourself as a victim of bad behavior or choices...
The true power-courage, integrity, dignity within you can come forth.
You have been here long enough and you have words and the knowledge to do this.
So
As it was put to me once when I was stuck:
You know how to do this.
So stop f@cking around and do it.
I've never understood the line "If you love them, then let them go."
My W has actually said this too me a few times, and can never think of an answer that doesn't compound the issues.
IF I love her, why the heck would "I want" to let her go?!?!
I understand part of it is, that I really don't have a choice in what SHE does and I certainly don't want to just guilt her into staying. Also, the thought that if you let "it" go then possibly the freedom will ultimately result in "it" finding it's way back to you.
I honestly hope I NEVER hear that saying again...the quote is atributed to some Doug Horton but I can't seem to find anything about him.
Anyways, just something that's bothered me.
I don't know where it started. I thought it went something like "If you love something, then set it free....and if it comes back, then you'll know it really loves you".
I think the concept is giving up control over that which you love. We can't make somebody love us.
Can your love for your W encompass letting her go right now?
Without anger or resentment?
Brutally honestly.....
Actually, I would have anger and resentment if she stayed and continued her EA.
And I'll probably also have anger and resentment if she goes and takes her income and my child support with her.
The second scenario is of course the lesser of two evils.
In order for me to give her what she wants (out of the M and out of the cage) she has to get away from me, not just legally, but physically.
Knowing all these concepts and applying them are two different things. Yes, we know we have to detach. We know we can't control, we know we shouldn't pursue. WE know we have to let go.
How do we get to the point of actually doing it?
I don't think that this is what TrueGritter is talking about. He is talking about learning what unconditional love is. Please correct me if I'm wrong Grit.
The way that I look at it is this. We love our children even though they sometimes throw fits, don't listen to us, make poor choices, get into trouble, and sometimes disappoint us bc they don't do what WE want them to do. We love them unconditionally.
The question is, do we love our spouses in the same way?
Do we love them only when they choose to love us back?
Do we love them only when they choose actions that we agree with or that also make US happy?
I struggle with this too. And if my W and I don't reconcile and she moves on with her life, there will be anger and resentment on my part. But those are personal and selfish emotions. Nothing wrong with having them, but let's call them what they are. They will pass eventually. And eventually, I will be able to recognize the love that I still have for my W. It won't be an 'in love' type of love if that makes sense. But I will still love her and wish her all the happiness in the world.
This is a true giving of love... I know that it is how I wish to be loved, so why not choose to give that kind of love?
BITS
Denver
I think you got it D........
Another POV....and I will also use children here as an example.
When you love a child, even if it hurts, you have to let them go so that they can learn. Hovering over them, protecting them, controlling them will not make them grow into mature adults who can survive in this world.
In many ways our WAS are like children, so we have to let them go, set them free to find themselves. If they find their true selves, and we are part of them, as we all believe we are, they will come back.
How do we get to the point of actually doing it?
Through a process of doing the wrong thing for you and learning.
Then it is a matter of sheer will.
In many ways our WAS are like children, so we have to let them go, set them free to find themselves.
I agree. All of this is connected to itself.
I believe you can only see that when you look back from where you have come.
Having the awareness of it while you are moving through it is difficult because of the pain and emotion.
Hi Pickle,
Haven't heard from you. Are you OK?
Praying for you.
Well Grit, Angel, BITS and company.
I think I've reached that milestone.
She can't hurt me anymore.
What I mean is, no matter what happens, I no longer feel like a doormat.
You said give her what she wants. I've done that.
For the sake of my tweener, I gave her the choice to find a new dwelling or she can stay, ie. her freedom. She's been looking at renting a condo nearby, which will require a deposit this week. So she has a decision to make in the next couple of days. We've even had civil convos about the financial aspects of the D.
But just to let you all know, my S12 is still a momma's boy and not into puberty yet. When he grows out of his momma's boy phase things will be different obviously, but I told her, I am willing to put aside the resentment and all negatives for the sake of my son, he needs his mom in the house right now.
I know this sounds like "meltyman" and totally contrary to the direction I was leaning towards in my prior posts, but I love him more than myself and my pride. Some of you may not understand, but you have to be here. That's all I can say.
I said if OM wasn't 500 miles away and she was seeing him around town then definately no, she'd have to leave, but thankfully that's not the case. I asked her to think, about it, because I thought she may feel the need to not just be away from me legally but also physically. I understand that. So now it's all up to her. I have given he total release. It's what she wanted from the beginning of the sitch. I am giving her what she wants.
And you know something? I actually feel good about it. Whatever she decides, I'm at a peaceful place, I've gotten there (I think). Is that what you were talking about?
Whatever she decides, I'm at a peaceful place, I've gotten there (I think). Is that what you were talking about?
There is a certain peace in letting go of things you can't control...
You can't control what she wants or her choices.
You only control how you let them affect YOU.
And in that process you discover who YOU really are.
As long as you know that and what you want and believe in
Then the rest is just the will to make it happen for you.
Letting her stay in your home while commiting adultery is YOUR choice.
How does that align with what you believe. Your son will know the truth one day. Is that what you want to teach him?
I am not trying to convince you one way or the other Pickle but you can't control his mother's choices and you never will.
Her choices have consequences and your job is not to save your W from those consequences.
Her R with your son is hers to destroy. It is not yours to repair either.
Your job is not to damage it by your own hand.
But not to repair it.
Will it traumatize him. Yes. Probably.
What can you do?
Be the best father to him you can.
Pickle I believe you have taken a big step in understanding that you must let your W choose and somehow bring yourself to a peaceful place about it.
The next step? Finding Pickle again. Do that for you and your family.
They need a man who knows who he is and can be there for them.
Your words sound to me more like a beaten man.
Don't confuse letting go with losing.
What in this sitiuation do you control?
How will you choose for those things? For YOU?
There is a certain peace in letting go of things you can't control...
You can't control what she wants or her choices.
You only control how you let them affect YOU.
I have let go of the anger and resentment and in the process also the pain and heartache. It's as if my psyche just couldn't take anymore. So it's all business with me now, civil interactions with W and pondering what's best for the kids.
And in that process you discover who YOU really are.
As long as you know that and what you want and believe in
Then the rest is just the will to make it happen for you.
Letting her stay in your home while commiting adultery is YOUR choice.
How does that align with what you believe. Your son will know the truth one day. Is that what you want to teach him?
Whether she stays or goes, we'll still share custody, and she'll committ A or she'll not (no control), so my son will find out, when, I don't know. But as his father I only get one crack at his childhood. I believe having mom near is what is best for him today. But in the future, when he does discover the truth, I am not afraid to explain it to him. She may decide to take that condo anyway, and I can tell him whatever was her choice. The eureka moment for me was letting her have the choice. I have noticed since she has softened considerably.
I am not trying to convince you one way or the other Pickle but you can't control his mother's choices and you never will.
Her choices have consequences and your job is not to save your W from those consequences.
Her R with your son is hers to destroy. It is not yours to repair either.
Your job is not to damage it by your own hand.
But not to repair it.
Will it traumatize him. Yes. Probably.
What can you do?
Be the best father to him you can.
Pickle I believe you have taken a big step in understanding that you must let your W choose and somehow bring yourself to a peaceful place about it.
The next step? Finding Pickle again. Do that for you and your family.
They need a man who knows who he is and can be there for them.
Your words sound to me more like a beaten man.
Don't confuse letting go with losing.
What in this sitiuation do you control?
How will you choose for those things? For YOU?
I know I sound like a beaten man, perhaps there is some truth in that, because I couldn't prevent the D. There is always the stigma of failure associated with D. But I have achieved the only logical next step, dealing with the D in the best way possible. Emotionally I have reached a point where whatever W does will not cause me rollercoaster pain. Yes, I will have days where the seratonin gets out of balance, but it won't be like it was. S12 is at a critical stage of life, at the threshold of puberty and my will is geared toward him. It is a matter of setting aside the feelings and emotions and asking myself: what is my will?
Not to mind read or anything like that, but repoorting a couple observations.
Yesterday W and I sat at mass together, while S12 sat with the boy scouts (boy scout sunday).
Well for the first time since I've known her, she declined to go up for communion.
The previous (Saturday) afternoon we were talking about something (I don't remember what) and called her honey out of habit (actually over the years I almost never adress her by her name) she said curtly "Don't call me honey."
I can understand all this. Just reporting, not analyzing.
and called her honey out of habit (actually over the years I almost never adress her by her name) she said curtly "Don't call me honey."
LMAO.....
I love it when they do that....
Pickle,
There is no right or wrong way, but whatever it is, letting go of the anger always helps.
Declining to go to communion - I always observe my H when we go to mass also, and I am sad when I see him growing away from our beliefs, and so I could imagine how you feel about her not going to communion. But at the same time, it is an awareness that she is not doing right by her God.
Well, my outlook has turned around a bit.
Two pages ago I posted that no matter what happens we all lose.
I was staring at the whole sitch as a lose-lose scenario.
But Since I've left the decision in her court, I look at things differently now.
If she stays it's a "win": for the kids and their household stability and obviously the household finances. I don't care who she's texting or wanting to be with. I'm done with that.
If she moves out, that too is a "win" for me. Though we'll have to run into each other bacause of the kids, I'll be rid of her every evening and every morning and not have to put up with, "Don't call me honey." and all that kinda crap.
If she stays it's a "win": for the kids and their household stability and obviously the household finances.
But what about Pickle? Are you willing to stay in a loveless M and take her snide remarks until the kids grow up and leave home?
[edited by dbmod to add note: DB is about encouraging marriages, not challenging those who wish to stay married]
But what about Pickle? Are you willing to stay in a loveless M and take her snide remarks until the kids grow up and leave home?
Like water off a ducks back.
That stuff can only hurt me, if I let it.
It wont be a loveless M technically; we'll be divorced.
And I told her if OM wasn't 500 miles away we'd definately have to seperate. If she goes to see him, does it make a difference in the grand scheme, if she lives at home or down the street (that's where the condo is)? I don't control that.
I would prefer to DB with her gone, but I am willing for the sake of my delicate son to endure her presence for a while. I don't expect it to be long before S12 grows into a teenager and out of mom's apron. She really is a good mother.
Whatever she chooses, now that I've let it go, gives me a feeling of relief and detachment, because I've put it back on her. She's still conflicted, lost, in another world. In hindsight, pressing for the boundery was putting a tremendous strain on me personally, and things got out of hand ugly. It wont be all smooth sailing, but I am growing stronger within. I can do this.
With all that said, I have a feeling she wants the condo, so whatever.
Tell me this isn't MLC stuff.
Yesterday I come home from work; the kids are there but W is gone. I asked D17 where mom went and she said W went out with her friends. W gets home about 8:30PM; I ask, "Hey where you been?" She replied, "Didn't the kids tell you, I went to happy hour with X and Y. (her two tailgaters) we were discussing our BUCKET LISTS."
So there it is, after 18 yrs of marriage and raising two wonderful children, she has to climb Mt. Everest or something. Who knows; I didn't ask.
My W has mentioned a bucket list, but she always implies that she's missing out on something?!
I know she has dreams, things she's wanted to fulfil her life - but we were towards those together. Financially I don't see how she fulfills them on her own?
So I'm not sure if that fantasy in her mind is someone else that will make the dreams come true for her? I agree though why all of a sudden a panic that they are "missing out" on something.
I tend to believe she really means an OM, someone she could truly love and love her while both having IDENTICAL desires, dreams and aspirations. I guess it's ok to think that, but is it really something to leave our M to pursue?
BITS
SIC
Bah. I need to proof read my posts more. I meant to say "My W HASN'T mentioned a bucket list"
Dude, you gotta stop focusing on what she is or isn't doing...
I see you around the MLC pages, and I know you read there by your references to what she is doing or not doing.
Maybe you should start a thread over in MLC...
IF MLC is the case, then you know this is not gonna be an easy road..
It's gonna be the hardest thing you have ever done.
It doesn't matter what kind of lists she is making right now.
Your focus should be on you and what you are doing...
What are your goals for you ?
What are you doing to achieve those goals ?
Dude, you gotta stop focusing on what she is or isn't doing...
Dude, not focusing, just commenting on what she said.
I did not start a thread in MLC for two reasons, 1. less traffic and 2. I'm not entirely sure.
What I mean is W has always been a restless spirit, never at peace or content for long.
What are your goals for you ?
What are you doing to achieve those goals ?
I am the exact opposite of W. The source of my happiness is not external. I find mine within.
W is not happy unless she's planning something, looking forward to something, doing something. I on the other hand find contentment in the simple life. What she might call boring, I call contentment. So my goals are already met, be happy, be content, appreciate peace and quiet or solitude.
Externally, my goals are to provide my children the fullest life I can. D17 has aspirations of enjoying her senior year of HS and then college to pursue her passion for art and animation. S12 is only in 6th grade, unsure what he wants, save stability and a secure home.
Only when they are well taken care of and on their way to adulthood will I look at my future with external goals in mind. Really all I want to do is go fishing, enjoy a good cigar and a beer with my close pals.
W was a stay home mom from the time D17 was born until S12 went to kindergarten (1993 - 2005) As soon as she reentered the work force and gained some financial independence she begun to drift toward the woman she is now, as Segar wrote, running against the wind. I guess I've been that wind.
I do take responsibility for my half of the failed M, but I do not think my changes now or in the future would have made much difference. Maybe the sitch would have been delayed some, but W is who she is, and I have let her go. Someday we'll both be in our 60's and not growing old together as I had hoped and dreamed, but there's nothing I can do about that. So I sacrifice what I must for the sake of the youngsters.
Thank you all for keeping up with this.
An extract from “I Am With You” by Fr. John Woolly (fair use)
"My child, you are sure that I oversee the whole span of your life; whatever unfolds now is being shaped, because of your trust, into a meaningful pattern for the days ahead. I stand there at the unknown future, exerting My influence, which is invincible.
Because the love cannot be broken, you must be certain that My provision, my protection, are yours – as of right – in the coming days.
Remember that the material is only a minor part of existence. When there is much which you cannot understand of my present working, just reflect upon My knowledge of, and influence in, your future. Let this give you an unparalleled sense of security, and an absence of all that is motivated by fear."
(Isaiah 60:20) Your sun will never set!
http://www.iamwithyou.co.uk/extracts.php
Pickle...
Our communication styles seem to be clashing here...
And it is my fault, I was clearly confused by your title that you needed insight...
Needing it and wanting it are two different things.
I was merely suggesting MLC to give you insight to explain some of the craziness that has surrounded your life recently.
With that, I ask you Pickle..
How can I help you ?
Pickle...
Our communication styles seem to be clashing here...
And it is my fault, I was clearly confused by your title that you needed insight...
Needing it and wanting it are two different things.
I was merely suggesting MLC to give you insight to explain some of the craziness that has surrounded your life recently.
With that, I ask you Pickle..
How can I help you ?
Guess I should change my thread title. It all started out last Nov after bomb went off as "Need Insight" and then I just added the 2 thru 5. I don't think we're clashing, I appreciate the input from all comers. That is why I post. Maybe someone will recognize a similar situation and advise and/or comment. The best thing you can do for me right now is keep us in your prayers. Thanks,
Pickle
That is what I will do...
I will also pray that you come over to MLC...
Because similar patterns and situations will be recognized there.
Just my .02
Been busy this week, so no time to post.
But yesterday was an exercise in lack of communication.
Remember how I offered that W could stay in the house for the sake of kids? Well for the past 4 months she's been sleeping in D17's room (has two twin beds) or on the couch. I thought that would continue, or we would move the twins to master suite and give D17 our queen. Silly me.
But wait a minute. W thought I was giving up the master suite, WTF. She even said that I said that, and I never even hinted I would give up the master suite. I am willing to share the suite or even take turns, but give it up altogether? Isn't she the one getting the D and pursuing R with OM?
Now she's miffed about missing the deadline on putting deposit on condo rental. She's proctoring a test this morning till 1:00 PM. Hopefully she'll cool down and realize she's asking too much of me. Help me out here folks, I'm trying to avoid another scene from war of the roses.
I cannot believe her nerve, obviously she took your offer as pursuing and is taking advantage of it.
Damn this stuff [censored], it was suggested (as my W still lives with me) that I give up the MB to her as another way to detach.
The bottom line is I don't want to sleep on the couch for next 3-6 months! Like you said, I'm not the one who's pursuing seperation!!! I may try to move to the couch for a couple weeks to see if anything changes - but I am worried it will be a big issue to move back after I've left the bed.
Have you put yoru foot down about the master, or at least told her you'd be willing to take turns?
BITS
SIC
Have you put yoru foot down about the master, or at least told her you'd be willing to take turns?
BITS
SIC
Yes, I put my foot down, and I said we could take turns.
But we have yet to talk about it. She went to bed in the twin in a huff and we havn't seen each other in private yet. I am willing to share but will not give up the master suite 100%. The worst thing that can happen is she'll move out like she had planned. I wouldn't mind that either.
Remember, before Christmas I posted that picking my guitar and practicing carols in anticipation of a party helped ease the depressive downswings on the rollercoaster? I was on to something according to the following WebMD magazine article, which I read while in the doctor's waiting room.
http://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/features/how-making-music-reduces-stressSo if any of you like to tap a keyboard or pluck some strings now and then, take note.
Hi Pickle,
I think you need to go with your gut. You're being NICE, isn't going to get her to change her mind. She won't respect you if you go sleep on the couch to make her divorcing you more comfortable for her. She's her problem, man. If you feel that sharing is the right thing, then ok. But don't be a pushover, IMO.
Remember, before Christmas I posted that picking my guitar and practicing carols in anticipation of a party helped ease the depressive downswings on the rollercoaster? I was on to something according to the following WebMD magazine article, which I read while in the doctor's waiting room.
http://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/features/how-making-music-reduces-stressSo if any of you like to tap a keyboard or pluck some strings now and then, take note.
Awesome. I just bought myself a keyboard last week hoping to learn the piano. Maybe next year i'll buy myself a guitar. Then time to teach my daughter !!
Hi Pickle,
I think you need to go with your gut. You're being NICE, isn't going to get her to change her mind. She won't respect you if you go sleep on the couch to make her divorcing you more comfortable for her. She's her problem, man. If you feel that sharing is the right thing, then ok. But don't be a pushover, IMO.
Thanks IM. I thought and prayed about it alot.
What I do, I do for my son, as I posted earlier.
As far as respect goes, W hasn't respected me in long, long time.
I am not concerned with her respect right now.
I think her biggest struggle is her own self respect.
That's her problem. It's not like I havn't tried to be a good father and husband. I can respect myself, because I know I don't control her.
We share the master suite as far as closet/bathroom and belongings go. I sleep in my son's bedroom and it really gives me more peace than what I had when fighting with W. At this stage in the sitch each time I give her what she wants, I feel more power over her for some odd reason.
Today I told my atty that we're ready to negotiate a settlement out of court. I think the sooner she gets the D the sooner she'll realize it is not the answer to all her problems. I am simply a bystander in the drama.
Update on the D.
My atty responded to W's summons.
Now she has 30 days (3/14) to deliver doc request.
It's mostly the same stuff I had to put together,
Except my atty asked for a lot more docs.
My atty has 30 yrs exp in fam law, hers' only a couple.
W went away again this WE.
Even though she's w/OM I am so much more comfortible when she's gone.
I read N.U.T.'s and am almost through Mr. Nice Guy.
Going camping with the scouts tonight.
D17 is having a friend sleep over.
Though the pain still raises it's ugly head,
I think I've reached the acceptance phase
Take care Pickle. I have been wondering about you. I am glad you are slowly accepting and finding ways to alleviate the pain.
Follow your instinct, the feeling of power over her when you let her go means something. The process needs to move along so that it could turn a corner one of these days. Holding back only delays unless there is a reason for it. I guess in your case buying time won't work anymore.
Update:
I'm thinking about moving my thread to MLC. Havn't decided.
W went to OH again for 4 day weekend. Got back late last nite.
Says nothing to me this AM. Looks real "happy" to see me, NOT.
Then around 10:30 AM she calls to complain about my not giving D17 eough money this weekend . Apparently she needed special underthings for a miss HS pagent costing $100 and I only gave her $60. Of course I don't know how much that stuff costs; my briefs are $5 at K-Mart. She also has gripe with my counter petition about child healthcare expenses. She wants the out of pocket costs split based on income, while my atty said they should be split 50/50. Mind you I pay for the kid's health insurance premiums. So after that pleasant convo, we say bye and hang up. Put me in a really fine mood. I should have made her move out.
I was interrupted at "work" during my last post so I didn't finish venting.
After giving her what she wanted from the beginning, the roommates thing, and the master bed, W also dropped the idea that I only want her to stick around because I want to save money. I said to her, "You know that's not true." When I offered to let her stay two weeks ago I explicitly said it's for my son, because I had apparently changed my mind about making her move out while she maintained R with OM.
Well the money thing is partly true to the extent that there'll be more for the kids and their damned underthings. But talk about pushing my buttons. Anyway she continued her rant, I don't want you doing my laundry; D17 doesn't want you to put away hers. She says D17 can do her own to earn an allowence. I just kept quiet or agreed we need to discuss allowences for the kids. I've pretty much learned to just STFU when the venom and vitriol start to fly.
If I move to the MLC forum, I think I'll change the thread to "Need Encouragement."
Journaling from the adoration chapel.
Had to make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament after work.
Yesterday was a screwed up seratonin day.
I remember a few weeks ago I got a sense that God was telling me that "only out of the smoke of destruction will W come out of the fog." (I had no idea what that meant)
Then yesterday I sensed God telling me that "the seeds of destruction have been planted." (again, no idea)
I'm kinda hoping destruction refers to WAW's R with OM and not my R with W, but the evidence is right in my lawyer's office. It is the M which is being destroyed.
Funny thing though - processing through the D is helping me with acceptance and detachment. I expect that when the finalizing day arrives my seratonin will get totally out of balance, but I'll deal with it.
Either way, the messages I am sensing from God, whether it's just my imagination or not, I think it will be better for me to get this over and done with.
She can't learn that D will not solve her problems without the experience, right? She can't come out of her fog the way she went in, she can only go trough it and come out the other side, right?
Someone once said, "If you're going through hell, keep going." So that's what I'm doing.
One more thing, and this might help some of you. I also sensed God telling me: "Do not fear the unknown."
Makes sense - why fear what you do not know?
He says: "The future is unknown; do not fear the future."
Had a convo with my dad yesterday to update parents on the sitch.
Up until now I have kept the EA and W's fantasy away from them.
But had to finally update and"explain". Dad went ballestic in the phone:
"Who gets divorced and then lives in the same house etc etc!"
"She's f@cking some other guy and you're going to put up with that??!"
Had to calm him down - the future is not set in granite - W could still move out. And I mean that. There's no interaction with her. Either she's so buried in guilt or can't stand being in the same room for some other reason that the strangeness of this "living arrangement" will finally get to her one way or the other.
The question is, how will her desire to stick around for the kids cope against her desire to flee? Thank God I am GAL'ing and not drawn into her drama. One day in the future she'll realize I am not the cause of her problems and the D is not the answer. But I'm not holding my breath.
She can't learn that D will not solve her problems without the experience, right? She can't come out of her fog the way she went in, she can only go trough it and come out the other side, right?
Pickle. Absolutely.
She has to learn her own lessons.
Maybe or maybe not make her way back to you.
What you do. You do for you.
You do for your M
your family
and for her.
Remember that.
Do you have the courage to let her find her way?
What your Dad said.
Most people don't have to face what you are facing
And
Most people don't choose what you are choosing.
To undertstand
To find compassion
To set yourself on a path of healing
and to being the man you want to be.
Only through this hell will you find yourself
On the other side.
Your Dad is not married to your W.
Nor is anyone else at this point.
This situation is not unique
what IS you unique is YOU
And your choice of how to handle your commitment and youself.
I think after three months of hell, my seratonin levels are finally coming into balance. Haven't "felt" depressed or angry for a few days now. Oh, don't get me wrong, certain thoughts still creep into my mind from time to time, especially on rainy days, but I get them under control more easily now. Trusty guitar and march madness helps. And I went to daily mass Friday.
Interesting thing happened this weekend. There was a dinner theatre/talent show at our church Fri & Sat nite which I participated in. W and kids didn't want to have anything to do with it, cause they're alredy heavily involved with drama stuff at school.
Anyway, I was having a blast at dinner w/friends and fellow players (but my skit wasn't until almost two hours into the show) when guess who comes in for dinner? W's "confidant" from work and her family. I greeted her H and eldest D on the way to the bar, but couldn't bring myself to travel across the room to say "hi" to confidant. Still, I am glad she caught my skit and saw me having such a fun time. By the time we took the stage our whole troupe was a 12 pack in and totally hammered.
I didn't feel like mentioning any of this to W. Yesterday afternoon W seemed softer; we discussed running down our lists of household bills and just divying things up to cut down on the atty involvement/fees. We talked about my refinancing the house I explained that I couldn't do it without 80/20 loan to value. It was all civil.
She really does look a mess though when I get a good look at her face. I think this whole thing's just tearing her apart. But I simply can't imagine. Soon she's going to realze that once the property is in my name, and she has her half of the equity in her pocket, there's nothing to stop her from leaving. Will she stay for S12? I don't know and I don't really care.
IAP, You responded on another thread that the OM in your sitch was your W's first H. Let me guess he dumped her?
Had a little scare with D17 yesterday.
She left school around noon throwing up badly.
We all ate the same dinner and breakfast and no one else at lunch got sick, so I suspected appendicitis.
Took her to the ER as soon as she called from home around 3:00 PM, W came by to relieve me around 7:30 PM after giving S12 dinner. They didn't get home till 10:30 PM. Tests and CAT scan turned up negative. We still don't know what was wrong.
It just makes me think though that tag teaming with W over crises involving the kids is something parents take on forever. Kids bind parents' lives like nothing else even after they reach adulthood: illnesses, graduations, weddings, grandchildren, even funerals. So no matter how badly a WAS desires to escape, it's never really all the way, and they never think twice about it.
All feelings aside, in the end love is a choice.
She chose to no longer love me as a husband. I've chosen to love my kids by not resenting their mother.
But I realize though, that even if she were to change her mind today, I've got to take a long, long journey myself before I could begin to accept her back.
Like the Bible story of the prodigal son I more resemble the righteous elder brother than the unconditionally forgiving father.
But at least I'm not poor the fatted calf!
Kids bind parents' lives like nothing else even after they reach adulthood: illnesses, graduations, weddings, grandchildren, even funerals. So no matter how badly a WAS desires to escape, it's never really all the way, and they never think twice about it.
Absolutely the truth. Everytime you encounter your spouse at these events, it is always going to be hard time for us...and the kids too.
Thats exactly what I told H: that we will never really be out of each others life because we have a child together. And think about how he kids will feel ifduring special times in their life - weddings, grandchildren being born, etc. their parents cannot be there together without tension.
I told my H in one of our last R talks that at first, I felt that I did not want to be friends with him ever, or even see him again once we go our separate ways. But thinking forward, to when our D goes through all those special moments in her life, I still want to be able to see him, meet his eyes over our D's head and congratulate ourselves on having brought a wonderful person into the world. Play together with our grandchildren, even if not as H and W, but at least as friends, without the bitterness.
About your observation regarding how your wife looks:
I noted that lately with H as well. At first he was looking really good - slimmed down, looked 10 years younger, was grooming and preening. Suddenly, he aged and looks haggard and tired. But I think its the same with me. The problems and stress really takes their toll.