I guess I will start another thread. Mine seems to be locked.
Denver, about being your hero? Thanks for bringing me up, and then dropping me back down. lol.
Maybe I could be scaredincanada's sidekick or something.
I guess I will start another thread. Mine seems to be locked.
Denver, about being your hero? Thanks for bringing me up, and then dropping me back down. lol.
Maybe I could be scaredincanada's sidekick or something.
LOL... you're both my heros!!
hey habit can you post a link to your last thread, that way we can keep referring back to it without having to go searching.
Thanks dbmod.
Well, I might of avoided disaster tonight. After going so long with no R talk of any kind, I came within touching the bedroom doorknob a few minutes ago.
I got really frustrated tonight about her lack of anything. I know this is normal to feel like I am doing all the work, and she is getting off easy.
I admit I was an awfully angry and grouchy guy over the last few years, and she has every right to feel the way she does. In her eyes she sees that as who I am. Well, she's wrong. She didn't marry that guy. I had problems, I would say in some ways sick. I would say probably a combination of MLC and frustration with communication. We were not communicating or showing love and affection the way we used to. She dealt with these problems by holding it in, I dealt with it with anger.
I know neither one of us understood this. Now I see what was going on with myself, and I see what she was doing also.
This is what I almost entered the room to have R talk was about. It is something I want her to understand. I feel like I was almost sick with the place I was in. Maybe I was.
If my W had problems and was sick mentally or physically that would cause things to be the way they were with me, or if she was just in a place in her life where issues like this happen, I would stand by her no matter what.
Isn't she supposed to also? Isn't that what for better or worse is all about? I thought I married someone who would honor this no matter what? What ever happened to this type of marriage?
It breaks my heart more that she won't try, than her actually not loving me.
Somebody please give me a darn good reason why she does not need to understand what our problems are.
Tell me why I did the right thing by not walking in that bedroom tonight.
I battle with this more than anything everyday.
Thanks dbmod.
Well, I might of avoided disaster tonight. After going so long with no R talk of any kind, I came within touching the bedroom doorknob a few minutes ago.
I got really frustrated tonight about her lack of anything. I know this is normal to feel like I am doing all the work, and she is getting off easy.
I admit I was an awfully angry and grouchy guy over the last few years, and she has every right to feel the way she does. In her eyes she sees that as who I am. Well, she's wrong. She didn't marry that guy. I had problems, I would say in some ways sick. I would say probably a combination of MLC and frustration with communication. We were not communicating or showing love and affection the way we used to. She dealt with these problems by holding it in, I dealt with it with anger.
I know neither one of us understood this. Now I see what was going on with myself, and I see what she was doing also.
This is what I almost entered the room to have R talk was about. It is something I want her to understand. I feel like I was almost sick with the place I was in. Maybe I was.
If my W had problems and was sick mentally or physically that would cause things to be the way they were with me, or if she was just in a place in her life where issues like this happen, I would stand by her no matter what.
Isn't she supposed to also? Isn't that what for better or worse is all about? I thought I married someone who would honor this no matter what? What ever happened to this type of marriage?
It breaks my heart more that she won't try, than her actually not loving me
Our W's need to figure it out in their own way... in their own time. Just as they couldn't force us to not be angry, depressed or whatever prior to them dropping the bomb, we cannot force them to do what we want right now.
I relate to how you feel brother. And I can relate to many things in your sitch. But the reality that we came to where we are today in our own time. We don't get to determine the time that they come around. We can't force it on them. We can't control them. Just as they could not control us when we were damaging the M.
That is why you didn't turn that doorknob.
BITS
Denver
I guess I will start another thread. Mine seems to be locked.
Denver, about being your hero? Thanks for bringing me up, and then dropping me back down. lol.
Maybe I could be scaredincanada's sidekick or something.
Dude, any day!! It feels so much better to be around people that are going through what I am going through. We are all in this together, there are no winners/losers, heros - we are all survivors!
Every single person I talk too (a few friends and a couple work associates) they all tell me I need to fight for my W in that they mean PURSUE her! Then I try to explain to them why that DOES NOT and WILL NOT work. They don't understand. I usually end up telling them they won't understand unless they were in the same sitch.
I get great strength from you Habit, along with a lot of the other BITS members. Heck I spend more time reading posts on this forum than I do anything else these days!!
Somebody please give me a darn good reason why she does not need to understand what our problems are.
Tell me why I did the right thing by not walking in that bedroom tonight.
I battle with this more than anything everyday.
To be honest I feel like you need to have some sort of R talk at some point, because otherwise I believe she thinks that your on the same page with her. I get that feeling with my W, and only remainder detach for amost 2 weeks at a time.
Last night she initiated some R talk in bringing up that she had C this coming Thursday. She mentioned that she kind of liked going because it was someone that would ACTUALLY just listen to her and not judge her.
I replied, "Of course, she has no stake in the sitch - she could care less what happens with you marriage".
I said to her, "I'm glad that you feel good about going to C, and that it's helping you"
She replies, "Oh it's not helping anything, I don't believe I need any help - I know what I want."
I said, "Ok, so that means that you want to give us a chance." She said, "No, I'm done trying, I know what I want and I know that I don't want to try anymore".
Awesome stuff. Regardless early next week, I'm going to look into booking the MC.
We did have a funny moment. She was on the couch reading to my 2 oldest D's, when I decided to come up D5 and tickle her. She was laughing, and I proceeded to tickle D6, and then just for fun tickled my W. It was just for a second, and similar to when I smacked her on the butt last week, I got mixed sly smile from her and a "Don't do that." in a playful way.
I'm sure the fact that I am touching her messes with her. I can see that it gives her mixed feelings, but again it could be simply because she's also gone so long with out any sort of intimacy.
Along the road we go...
BITS
SIC
I have stuck to my guns with the no R talk. I have been very patient and have waited for her to initiate it because this is the advice I always get. (exception MrBond).
On the other hand I always hear,"Do what works". Well, this isn't working. As time goes by I can see she is less tense and looks to be more comfortable. I would love to think these are baby steps, but the more comfortable she gets, the farther away she gets from me. She is detaching.
I could tell the tenseness and everything right after the bomb was guilt. She felt bad for what she was doing to me. Now, she is getting the impression that I am going to be o.k. with all of this, and she is letting go.
I know everyone is going to say I am mind reading, but it looks pretty obvious to me.
Hey Habit,
I hear what you are saying. I feel it also, at some point we have to talk R. Hell if we agree with them why would they change their mind. Then I think everytime I bring it up it goes south. There for awhile we would talk R all the time, that is before she filed and she was hurt and angry and was letting her feelings out now she seems content and happy. The point is if they don't want to talk R then you are setting yourself up for failure.
Over the past 4 months I would of thought I could of seen maybe some small signs of life, it looks to be the opposite, a long slow death.
I'm wondering if there an indirect way to enagage her in R talk, without appear to be directly engaging in it? Talk about something that may lead into R discussion? IDK. I'm trying to help.
Like I was saying in my sitch. If my W mentions anything remotely related to the R or M, I'm off like a thoroughbred!
It's clear when she does talk she doesn't want to hear my perspective, she doesn't want me to try to reason with her. She literally wants me to sit there and listen and accept her [censored]. I'm ok with it to a point, because I'm glad we are talking.
I think I'm going to continue the little touching things, do them casually like as if they are normal again. Make her squirm a bit, and possible think more about it. She's obviously conflicted by it - but I want it to bring out a positive in her.
I'm really interest to see what happens on Thursday night after her C appointment. I can almost garentee she comes home and wants to talk, because she told me before that's what the C said, "Be honest and direct with your husband".
She'll reiterate all of the things she already said, "I don't want to be with you anymore, this isn't what I want, I don't love you and I cannot change that - and I don't want to try".
Then I'm left with...What exactly does she expect me to do with this verbal diarrhea? I understand that's how she feels in the moment, and she wants to be done with as soon as possible because she doesn't want anything but her fantasy.
I would like to try that, but she has never given me an opening. I know it sounds unbelievable, but not one word has been said about R or M.
This is what is so hard, I read everyone's posts and it is all, she said this, I said that, and I am sitting here feeling like I am missing the boat. Or is it that I am the only one doing it by the book?
No communication got us to this point, How does no communication get us out?
Anything on my old threads that I mentioned what my W has said, was all said on D-day. Nothing else, ever! I suppose what I heard on D-day is supposed to be enough for me to work with.
I wish she would just get her f**cking head out of the sand. Sure I had problems, I am dealing with them. When the hell do they have to realize there problems and deal with them instead of running away to happy land.
SIC, it is like you said, They have no idea there is something wrong with them. It is all our fault. Selfish BS. But, we will accept the responsibility and take it all on because we love them so much so we can be the better person and be able to say we gave it all we had. blah, blah, blah.
For better, or for worse. They are just fine during the better, but when the worse shows up, watch em' scatter.
The bible even warns us, it is better not to marry if you can, because it is just going to cause trouble in our lives. It freaking warns us about this. That alone makes a believer out of me.
She'll reiterate all of the things she already said, "I don't want to be with you anymore, this isn't what I want, I don't love you and I cannot change that - and I don't want to try".
Agree with her. "I can't believe I have been trying to hold onto this. I hear you, I think it is best for me to be in a marriage with a woman who loves me. I understand how you can feel that way and I wont stand in your way of leaving."
maybe one way to engage in R talk without actually talking about it is discussing some future event. Is there something in your family's life that is coming up? A trip? A ball game? A play? Something that has you talking about something that is happening in the future?
That's something that broke the ice for me. We talked about an event that was to happen in a few months and that started a little of the talk.
hey habit, I feel your pain. It is tough to stay positive but one thing you should do is work for yourself - I KNOW you've heard that a ton but it is true.
but we all know how hard that is. The W IS a part of you. I totally understand that - I'm in the same boat. I want to work on myself but the W is such a large part of that as well...it's tough.
Let me ask you. Why do you think she is still living in the same house? Is she biding her time?
Also, maybe as far as expectations, you should act like you are divorced - only as far as expectations. Then, if she does things, says things - you will be more aware of them. Heck man, there may be little things you aren't aware of.
trying to inspire a little hope as well
She'll reiterate all of the things she already said, "I don't want to be with you anymore, this isn't what I want, I don't love you and I cannot change that - and I don't want to try".
Agree with her. "I can't believe I have been trying to hold onto this. I hear you, I think it is best for me to be in a marriage with a woman who loves me. I understand how you can feel that way and I wont stand in your way of leaving."
What will this accomplish? Will this not lead her to believe I WANT a divorce? I just don't see how that helps. I know I'm supposed to relieve the pressure, but I don't want her to feel confident that she's "doing the right thing".
I'm going to do my best the next time she brings up the R, to just validate. No matter what she says, not try to add anything or clarify anything. We'll see what that buys me.
I was just taking a look at success stories. The newest one is from september. It looks like all of them were placed there by moderators. Am I looking in the wrong places?
I am not trying to cut down DBing, It is the choice I have made and I really don't know what else to do.
This is my family and my live's I am dealing with. I just want to know the facts.
I know when this question about success rates has came up before, it has been mentioned that when most people have success they don't come back, so we don't hear about that.
I can't believe that. I would, and I think most everyone on here that I talk to would to. So where are they?
I am sorry, I really am, but I am starting to feel brainwashed.
SIC, I feel the same way about coach's statement. I know that is DBing,but I sure can't bring myself to do that.
That is what my W is waiting for. If she knows I am ok with the D, she will file tomorrow. There goes the one thing I had on my side, TIME.
I was just taking a look at success stories. The newest one is from september. It looks like all of them were placed there by moderators. Am I looking in the wrong places?
I am not trying to cut down DBing, It is the choice I have made and I really don't know what else to do.
This is my family and my live's I am dealing with. I just want to know the facts.
I know when this question about success rates has came up before, it has been mentioned that when most people have success they don't come back, so we don't hear about that.
I can't believe that. I would, and I think most everyone on here that I talk to would to. So where are they?
I am sorry, I really am, but I am starting to feel brainwashed.
I posted that question a number of weeks ago. I agree that likely a lot of people are successful don't come back to talk about it - there busy with their new M!!
Regardless I think the key in all this, like has been said a number of times is DO WHAT WORKS, DON'T DO THINGS THAT DON'T WORK. I know some of what I've done in DB'ing is clearly working, but obviously not sticking to it hurts.
Secondly, I think the time factor when it comes to having WAS come out of the fog/sand/[censored] whatever is not consistant. It's not like we have to do "A" for 1 month, then move onto step "B" and do that for 3 weeks...etc.
Lastly, I think in some cases (maybe mine/maybe yours - maybe all of the BITS) there is nothing that can be done. The D is going to happen no matter what...
Regardless the DB principles focus so much on improving ones self worth almost as if it realizes that most of us "won't get what we came for", but it gives us some of the tools to move on calmly and rationally and in cases were kids are involved - manage to have a decent R with our W's once they are no longer our W's.
With that being said, I've never done well with that thought. Before I met my W, I had 100% completely disconnected from previous girlfriends - I mean most of them I've never seen again. Obviously with my W this wouldn't work, and I'm not really sure how it will work.
That seems darn close to reverse psychology. My W is to smart for that.
I understand the validating that she wants D, but to give her the impression that I am interested in a different woman to love me and be my W? She isn't falling for that.
Maybe if it was worded differently, so she doesn't get the impression of moving on to a different woman. Maybe coach sees that as a jealousy thing, but that will not work with my W, not an ounce of jealousy with her ever.
Habit,
You can call my story what ever you like - a success, a new beginning or just dumb luck. I've only been on here about 3 months and I was a very bad Dber.
My W dropped the bomb on Nov. 8, 2010. I cried and pleaded for about 10 minutes. Then I calmed down and asked her to re-think on it. She gave me a week. When that week was over she reiterated the bomb. Of course, I cried, but didn't really plead.
So she gave me a list of things she wanted from me during this time - basically she wanted space, we didn't sleep in the same rooms, she didn't want me to send her flowers, cards, presents, etc.
I complied, but he only thing I really respected was the space thing and the no presents thing.
By late Nov., she agreed to take Divorce off the table. On Dec. 3, she told me she wanted to work on the M and set up an MC session that day.
But I did bring up the R at least 3 times mostly at the urging of my MC. She also brought it up as well.
I know her turnaround was very fast and I'm really appreciative. I know people are in worse situations.
During the time I didn't follow DB to the letter. I mostly did what worked because that way I was sincere about it.
My point (gee you had one, harrier) is that if you feel that there is now a time to have an R talk. Have it, bring it up. Clearly this is weighing on you. It's making it so you can't really move on.
It may be painful. Hell mine were extremely painful. Know that going in. But really do you think you will be in a worse position. If you think communication issues are what lead you to the point you are at, I wonder if the no R talk cements that in your W's mind.
If you do bring it up. I'd remember this thought most times how an argument/talks ends is how it began. Don't go int with guns blazing, build up to the issue if you have to.
Now you can take this advice for what is is worth. Which is not much considering. Many would disagree, but you are the one that has to live with whether you talk or not.
But I really admired your fortitude in sticking with the DB.
Habit, I know it seems like brainwashing or cheerleading, but as a former WAS (with my 1st W), I believe that if my ex had used most of these techniques I may still be M to her.
In my current sitch, I've told W that for me, walking away from my ex without trying to work things out was the biggest mistake of my life. Not in a pleading, chasing way but as a matter of fact (maybe wrong to do, but I think it put a seed in her head). When she's brought up D, I calmly tell her that's not what I want but that I understand that she feels that way. I've learned the hard way to be a much better, empathetic listener.
I wish I could say WAS come out of their fog quickly, but W is still in her fog after at least last summer (and probably more like spring). I've had to learn to be VERY patient which is hard, but if I can do it, anyone can!
Thank you very much Harrier, I would count that as one for success stories, congrats, don't let up.
I would also count that as one for R talk.
As for no R talk cementing the no communication in my W's mind, I don't think so. It is me who has realized the communication issues, I don't think she knows what our problems were. She just thinks I am an evil, angry guy and that is just the way it is. She has never looked to see what was causing this, or looked for her faults in this.
This is why I want this R talk. I don't wish to put blame on her, I just think our problems need to be known by both of us. She should not be divorcing me without having the knowledge of why we are here. She shouldn't just be able to run away without knowing what happened.
SIC, your last 2 paragraphs are the hardest part.
I really don't care about myself after D. It would be like everything I cared about was gone.
Now, don't everyone jump my a** about writing that, I know what is wrong with it, just don't know how to change it.
Habit, I agree. I was mostly just trying to tell as I see it/feel it.
I think about it a lot, in the beginning I literally felt there was no option. Stay M to W or die.
Obviously if you really think about it that isn't worth it. Just like our W's believe they can happy again, so can we.
That's obviously what GAL is also preparing you for...
Think hard, start to think of things you always wanted to do.
For me, I've always wanted to take a 2 week trip to Wimbledon for the Tennis Championships. I've loved tennis for as long as I can remember. I've brought this upto my W a number of times, and she has zero desire to go. I may just plan this trip for next year if things don't workout.
Also, I grew up wanting to become a Chef. I learned to cook everything from my mother at young age, and as I got older (teens) I would bake and cook all the time just because I liked doing it. A few years ago we had a cook/bake off at work, because the guys and girls got into a conversation about who could cook. Nobody believed that I liked to cook/bake or that I was good at it. Ended up I baked an apple pie...made completely from scratch - and it was voted the best (secret ballet) of all the items that were brought it. In the end that thought I bought it from a baker!! LOL
I'm looking into taking some cooking courses/classes to see where it goes - you just never know.
No matter what happens with my W, I'll likely at least take some in some cooking classes, but the trip will be out of the question.
Other than that, my focus is still going to be on being the best father I can possibly be...I want my girls to grow up knowing their Dad was there for them ALL the time!!
We can do this no matter what the outcome...
I posted that question a number of weeks ago. I agree that likely a lot of people are successful don't come back to talk about it - there busy with their new M!!
No they are busy on another marriage help website.
I was and am a success story. There is a reason you don't see many success stories about reconciliation especially when it comes to spouses in affairs.
Men read up on attraction (primal and intimate), respect in a marriage, busting affairs, 5LLs, validating, and how women communicate. Most guys don't do their homework, they just say that won't work and keep doing what hasn't been working.
What will this accomplish?
You agreeing with her:
she can't argue anymore you agree
you heard her
you validated her feelings
stopped trying to control/smother/tell her how to feel
you become more valuable because you will be just fine without her
the vibe you give off is one of confidence - very attractive
she knows she is treating you poorly and you keep coming back for more, so letting her know that you want to be married to a woman that loves you is attractive and then giving her space is powerful
what caused all you guys to stand up and take notice of your situation?
Coach, are you trying to say this is a 2X4, now hit her with it? Or are you actually asking what caused us to take notice?
what caused us to take notice?
This
Who has more value in the M now? Why?
What caused me to take notice? The truck that hit me. It shouldn't of took that, but it did.
Who has more value? Me, because I still love her, and want the life I know we can have. I can see what we can be. There are a million reasons, but I am not sure I am telling you what you want to hear.
This goes back to validation. Validate what she says when she talks. What do you think you could do to shake things up a bit?
She doesn't talk about R. We never have, other than D-day. I have been waiting to validate her feelings, but she never shows any. Hiding like she has done for years.
Who has more value? Me, because I still love her, and want the life I know we can have. I can see what we can be.
How come your wife can't see it? Hint: because you are pursuing her.
It's a two pronged approach - be the man she fell in love with and is beneficial for you while at the same time giving her space (detaching, dropping the rope, GAL, being mysterious). Let her pursue you. Let her
feel the space. Learn how women think and communicate.
Don't let her mind read or put up with crap behavior (affairs fall in this category). Women tie their feelings of love to respect, if she can walk all over you she can't respect you.
Shake things up? Well, last week when I went out, and did not tell her where I was going, I took the massage oil/personal lubricant out of her medicine cabinet with me. Left label by sink so I know she saw it.
No reaction, not a word.
coach, where do you get pursuing? I don't even talk to her. We are rarely in the same room.
How has she walked all over me?
She treats me like nothing is wrong.
The man she fell in love with was a very pursuing man, that is how I got her.
She treats me like nothing is wrong.
Then why are you here?
How has she walked all over me?
How is she treating you? How's your sex life? Does she talk to you? Does she share her feelings?
The man she fell in love with was a very pursuing man, that is how I got her.
Describe your dating, what did you do?
She wants a D, but everyday is like nothing is wrong. She acts like everything is fine. But,yes,there is no us.
She talks some about everyday things, but as for sharing feelings no. Never has. She holds them all in.
I was just myself and treated her nice. I was always trying to do romantic stuff, but I don't know how to do that without being pursuing.
I have to go, thanks coach. I am trying, but I don't seem to be getting your point. Could you be a little more blunt. Thanks.
"I took the massage oil/personal lubricant out of her medicine cabinet with me. Left label by sink so I know she saw it."
What was that for?
I knew I would get asked that.
I took a massage class. You learn to give massage,and you get a massage. Might of been kind of dumb,but I got out of the house for a night.
I knew I would get asked that.
I took a massage class. You learn to give massage,and you get a massage. Might of been kind of dumb,but I got out of the house for a night.
Now you are my hero Habit!!!! That is some major GAL and 180 if you ask me!!!
BITS!
Denver
Okay but why did you take it with you and made it a point to show your W you took it?
We were suppose to bring a massage oil with us.
As for why I wanted her to see it. I hadn't done anything in my sitch for so long, I guess I just wanted to see if there was some sort of reaction.
I actually didn't plan it. When I took it out of the cabinet it has a tag around it by a string. It fell off, and I remember going to pick it up, and then the thought came to me about her seeing it, so I left it. It was probably stupid, but it seemed like an idea at the time.
I don't know if I was looking for a jealous reaction or what. Maybe I saw something on a post about being mysterious.
Habit, Thanks for asking the blunt question. I also have difficulty there. I feel that there are many conflicting statements, ways to do it and so I end up totally confused.
Given a situation like ours: where spouses live together, one spouse wants a D, there are kids, there is no marital relationship, these are the conflicting advice I am getting:
1. Boundaries - some say need to set to keep self respect vs. not ready to set boundaries - some say do not set if not ready
2. Giving space, validating, agreeing (thus losing spouse' respect or being labeled a doormat or allowing spouse to eat cake ) vs. tough love (not putting up with cr*p behavious as Coach says, maybe pushing the D or S to happen, being conditional when saying choose between OM/OW/D and family, pushing spouse to leave because of having to make a choice, resulting in less time to work on DB, have feedback that DB is harder after legal S or D)
3. GAL, acting as if, being upbeat vs. going dark/dim - how can you show being upbeat if you are avoiding contact (like going to another room, separating, etc.)
4. Letting go - I get it when it means emotionally, but again, we are just human and being in the same house as your errant spouse, it is impossible not to feel anything at all!
The statement "she treats me like nothing is wrong". That actually means that she is not bringing up whats wrong, but we all know what is wrong. She is probably DBing you as well - R talk results in pain -she is also not wanting to talk about the situation - maybe she is afraid that you can make her change her mind as well? That you will make her see reason? I feel that sometimes about my H.
"She walk all over me" - no sex life, no respect - what could be done about that? I have the same dilemma. We can't force them to, right? In DB, we knowthat, and we can only try to change so we will gain respect. But is it not only right that if our spouses did not want sex we just respect that too? But if they act disrespectfully I think we have to ask for respect. I have called my husband on that, told him that at least I expect respect as a human being, if nothing else, or else he walks out the door. And he did acknowledge that, and changed.
Forgive me if this is redundant. Several things I would like to answer.
1 There aren't many success stories posted cuz there aren't that many successes. Percentage wise
2) I think what coach was trying to say is that you aren't focused enough on you. Don't look to your wife much for her reaction to your actions. Do what you need to for yourself to become alright with the outcome, whatever it is. Be who you want to be. If she wants part of that..great, if not then you haven't lost much
3) she doesn't have to talk about the R because there isn't one as far as she's concerned. She wants out. She'll let you know otherwise.
4) if you are seeing no improvement then ask yourself why....you are either pursuing, not focused enough on yourself, or there is someone else (is there?). If she's cheating you win't matter as long as he's in the picture.
I don't believe there is a blanket approach to all this. While all the principles are the same I think they are added as the situation dictates. I believe that is what they mean by doing what works.
habit,
I understand your frustration; I feel it also with my W. I briefly spoke to a MC who I couldn't afford but gave some very good advice. If your W is on one side of a room and you are on the other imagine the M as the door between you. The more you want to open that door the more, at this time, she is resistant. If you stop pushing on the door all together there is no tension therefore no reason for her to apply pressure. That could be called pursuing.
Also the object of validating as he explained it was also using an analogy. The more my W complained about me the more I agreed. This sounds crazy, and to tell you the truth it still sounds crazy sometimes but I have tried it. You know what happens? Exactly what he said would happen. The more she attacked and the less I resisted the more she began to come to my defense, After all you can't shoot an unarmed man. She would complain I would agree then she would say something along the line "I made mistakes also it wasn't all you" I was like what the hell?
It isn't fair that we make all the adjustments but in reality we aren't. We can only control what we do and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. At the end of the day regardless of the outcome we must prevail if nothing else at least for our sake. Don't make it easy on them by proving they are right make it hard by being the guy/gal we want to be. Right now none of us have much bargaining power with our W, but if you think they aren't hurting inside then you are missing the mark. I got a very out of character text from my W today completely out of the blue.
As for success stories, I would like to see some more also.
Coach if you are a success story I would love for you to check out my thread and give me an honest assessment of where you think I am in my M.
Angel, I am with you, it can get confusing living together, but I am sure it is better than apart. So I am very thankful for that.
Phoenix,
I do not think I am pursuing.
I have gone through the reasons in the past why I think an A is unlikely. I am 96 percent sure on this. I really don't wish to explain all the reasons why again.
So, I must not be focused enought on myself. This I know.
The statement, Be who I want to be. I have heard this over and over. I want to be my W husband, I want to have a happy family. This is all I want, and all that is important to me. I can't change the way I feel, no more than I change the way my W feels.
My whole marriage and the first years of my children's lives have been wasted by me and my huge time consuming hobby's. I don't want that anymore. My GAL is my W and family. I do not know how to do any different. If this is what I want, why should I?
As for what I need to do for myself if things don't work out? Why can I not deal with that when the time comes. I am really tired of being told to prepare myself for the end of my marriage. I feel selfish worrying about myself, I put my W and kids way higher than myself on my priority list. If this is wrong, so be it.
Yes, fighting for my marriage is also about me and what I want, but a happy marriage is something that includes us all. When my family is at stake, I can care less what happens to me and what I want.
If this is somehow unattractive to a woman, scr#w em!
2stepboogie,
Thanks for your post, my only problem is, almost all the advice I get is when you are talking to your spouse, such as validating.
My W don't talk. She's done. I have been doing everything I am supposed to be doing when there is no R talk to be trying to put a crack in the wall. It isn't cracking.
"Do what works" I am looking for something that works, so I can do it. If 4 months of complete seperation from R of any kind is not enough time, someone tell me so. I will keep chugging along. I just want to do what works, and I am looking for what does work.
Well your not married to the tin man! Something has to work it's worked for 20yrs and now all of sudden she has turned to stone? Your missing something.
Habit,
1) Go to the posts of the ones who made it. Jack3Beans is one. It was his anniversary yesterday, I think, from when he first posted. I went through all his posts and it really was enlightening.
2) Have you talked to a DB Coach? Maybe if you could get some time there they will be able to show you things you didn't see.
3) 4 months may not be enough time. Michele says 1 month for every year of marriage (sorry, if that makes you want to jump.)
4) I feel your frustration, believe me. For the first 3 months, nothing worked. My H was absolutely the tin man. I don't care what anyone says. He closed down completely and there was nothing getting through. Good news, he's cracking. What does that mean? Don't have a clue if he's happy because I seem accepting or he's drifting back. I don't ask.
5) You have to GAL. Sorry, just the way it is. However, I don't believe that you should be doing things that aren't "you" and worrying about if its attractive or not. If you are not true to yourself, then you are just faking and you'll ultimately revert back to your true self. So, I agree with you on this point.
I know you're frustrated right now. I'm sorry about that because it really seems like you are making a genuine effort. There might not be an answer right now. Your wife might need time and there isn't anything else but time that is going to help. Your wife might truly want out. I don't know. But if I were you, I think it's worth betting on that she needs time and to wait this out a bit longer. The GAL is about not getting swallowed up in this waiting game because it is painful.
LIS
Habit,
1) Go to the posts of the ones who made it. Jack3Beans is one. It was his anniversary yesterday, I think, from when he first posted. I went through all his posts and it really was enlightening.
2) Have you talked to a DB Coach? Maybe if you could get some time there they will be able to show you things you didn't see.
3) 4 months may not be enough time. Michele says 1 month for every year of marriage (sorry, if that makes you want to jump.)
4) I feel your frustration, believe me. For the first 3 months, nothing worked. My H was absolutely the tin man. I don't care what anyone says. He closed down completely and there was nothing getting through. Good news, he's cracking. What does that mean? Don't have a clue if he's happy because I seem accepting or he's drifting back. I don't ask.
5) You have to GAL. Sorry, just the way it is. However, I don't believe that you should be doing things that aren't "you" and worrying about if its attractive or not. If you are not true to yourself, then you are just faking and you'll ultimately revert back to your true self. So, I agree with you on this point.
I know you're frustrated right now. I'm sorry about that because it really seems like you are making a genuine effort. There might not be an answer right now. Your wife might need time and there isn't anything else but time that is going to help. Your wife might truly want out. I don't know. But if I were you, I think it's worth betting on that she needs time and to wait this out a bit longer. The GAL is about not getting swallowed up in this waiting game because it is painful.
LIS
I concur with Lost. You need to be PATIENT and give this more TIME. Also, I disagree with those who would tell you that it is time to use a hard line approach. If someone wants to shoot you in the head, you don't hand them the gun. That is how I view the hardline. JMO.
BITS
Denver
[quote]I posted that question a number of weeks ago. I agree that likely a lot of people are successful don't come back to talk about it - there busy with their new M!!
No they are busy on another marriage help website.
Most of the success stories do not go on to other websites, they go on to their marriages.
She'll reiterate all of the things she already said, "I don't want to be with you anymore, this isn't what I want, I don't love you and I cannot change that - and I don't want to try".
Agree with her. "I can't believe I have been trying to hold onto this. I hear you, I think it is best for me to be in a marriage with a woman who loves me. I understand how you can feel that way and I wont stand in your way of leaving."
There is a better option: Listen. Really get to understand her. DO NOT agree with her, but don't argue with her. There's a difference. (What you resist persists.)
Validating is not agreeing. It is letting her know her point of view really matters to you. You want to understand her side of things, and even more for a woman--her feelings. You want to understand how your actions or lack of actions have impacted her.
Then change accordingly.
One man's good advice is another man's downfall. You are on the right track.
I do not think you are pursuing and you do not need to explain yourself to folks who are putting pressure on you.
My whole marriage and the first years of my children's lives have been wasted by me and my huge time consuming hobby's. I don't want that anymore. My GAL is my W and family. I do not know how to do any different. If this is what I want, why should I?
As for what I need to do for myself if things don't work out? Why can I not deal with that when the time comes. I am really tired of being told to prepare myself for the end of my marriage. I feel selfish worrying about myself, I put my W and kids way higher than myself on my priority list. If this is wrong, so be it.
Yes, fighting for my marriage is also about me and what I want, but a happy marriage is something that includes us all. When my family is at stake, I can care less what happens to me and what I want.
If this is somehow unattractive to a woman, scr#w em!
It IS attractive to women. There is no ONE description of what is attractive to women.
I know exactly how you feel habit. The only difference in your sitch and mine is that I wasn't nearly as patient as you are being and couldn't help myself and pursued my W. This led to me pushing her to the point of wanting to move forward w/ D. Then I made the move out of the house to stop her from moving forward. Along the way, I managed to lose my job and all respect of my W and quite possibly blew any chance I had of saving my M. I know you are going insane inside, but don't go my route and push the issue. Hang tough. I know you want your 180 to be w/ your family. Isn't there anyrthing that you can take on as a hobby that would be a 180, but still keep you around the house? Any home improvements you can do? Photography? Cooking?
mj144, it is funny you bring up home improvements. My house is like a brand new house in 2 months time. New windows, new doors,new roof. Guess what? She took it as pursuing. How do I know that you may ask? Because...
I JUST DID THE VALIDATING TALK. Do it. Trust me. It is like the tension blew out my new doors and windows and flew right out of the house.
I want to talk about this more, but it is so late because the W and I talked so much. Yipee.
Thank you everyone so much for puting up with my attitude the last couple days, I was really getting flustered.
It was like nothing was going on with my sitch, and all of a sudden everyone can tell by the tone of my writing that something is wrong, and you all came to the rescue. Thank you all very much.
I will try to tell all my details of our talk tomorrow. Good and bad. Bad being I talked to much, but overall I think a good score.
Nice Habit! Can't wait to hear how it went. Remember, BABY STEPS. It's good now. Don't despair if it goes bad. Just keep plodding slowly with no expectations.
AWESOME!! Happy for you. Now don't over react and be patient
There is a better option: Listen. Really get to understand her. DO NOT agree with her, but don't argue with her. There's a difference. (What you resist persists.)
Validating is not agreeing. It is letting her know her point of view really matters to you. You want to understand her side of things, and even more for a woman--her feelings. You want to understand how your actions or lack of actions have impacted her.
Then change accordingly.
Thanks Dbmod, this is how I handled things last night and I felt like progress was made...it could be false hope - but at least I live to fight another day so to speak.
mj144, it is funny you bring up home improvements. My house is like a brand new house in 2 months time. New windows, new doors,new roof. Guess what? She took it as pursuing. How do I know that you may ask? Because...
I JUST DID THE VALIDATING TALK. Do it. Trust me. It is like the tension blew out my new doors and windows and flew right out of the house.
I want to talk about this more, but it is so late because the W and I talked so much. Yipee.
Thank you everyone so much for puting up with my attitude the last couple days, I was really getting flustered.
It was like nothing was going on with my sitch, and all of a sudden everyone can tell by the tone of my writing that something is wrong, and you all came to the rescue. Thank you all very much.
I will try to tell all my details of our talk tomorrow. Good and bad. Bad being I talked to much, but overall I think a good score.
Awesome stuff Habit, I'm sure like I'm my sitch there was a mix of good and bad. I certainly glad you've removed some of the tension. I hope your able to build on this if and when she is ready to talk more!
BITS
SIC
TAke or leave the advice. But what you are doing doesn't sound like it's working. How bout you do whatever feels right to you...it isn't DBing and isn't working, but oh well. No one said to act like a jerk or ignore your wife and kids...but suddenly becoming Joe Perfect husband and father can be pursuing. You should spend more time with kids....it just doesn't have to be in your wife's face. Just thought I would drop in to this site after a year or two off...just to remember how much this [censored]
phoenix, good point about the Joe Perfect.
In my validation talk last night, this was discussed. All this time, everything I have been doing was not believed by her, it was all seen as pursuing.
I love it because she brought it up which gave me an opening to show her the changes were not all about her. I told her the truth, that in the beginning the things I was doing were what she thought they were, pursuing, I didn't know what else to do.
I said, "Everything I am doing now, is for me, it makes me feel like a better man,father and husband. Although I want to work on my marriage, I don't have a lot of time for that right now, because I have a lot of work to do on myself".
I did way to much talking, but she did some also. I was always sure to say things like, "yes, your right", "I know,your exactly right", "I agree", " I never saw it that way,thanks for showing me". Most of the time the reactions from me were not fake, she is right.
I was also sure to try and look her in the eye, and show attentive body language. Which in the first minute I needed to fake, but after that it just flowed. It wasn't fake anymore, I was listening, and I was agreeing with her.
I learned a lot about what she was feeling. Not so much now,but in the past. Not only did I go to her just to validate her feelings, and I tried to show her where I was at also, but it got turned around on me. All of a sudden she is telling me about how she felt. I learned a lot.
I was feeling pretty good about the real changes that I had made for myself. After talking with her, I have a lot more work to do. I am glad though, she told me things I would not of seen on my own.
It has always bothered me that I could never see how she tried. (pre-bomb). I have mentioned in the past about the last few times we ML, that I could see her getting teary eyed. I would ask her about it, and she would say,"I don't know,nothing".
Looking at this now, it makes me mad because how am I supposed to know what is wrong with that kind of answer?
I asked her about this, She didn't know either. She knew something was wrong, she just didn't understand what. So she wasn't necessarily holding her feelings in, she didn't understand her feelings. This is where having a validation talk to let her know I understand her feelings, actually turned in to me understanding her feelings.
One thing I would like others comments on, these teary eyed ML occasions were happening only 2 weeks from the bomb. She said she wasn't sure of the reason for the teary eyes. She knew something was wrong, just not sure what. Does this sound like a woman who was planning an escape? I don't wish to jump to any conclusions, but this just jumped out at me as strange feelings for someone who had a plan.
That's great man!! You see, she was not the tin man. I would say don't over react and continue to grow and learn with this. You have begun however painful the road to converstation
I was going to suggest you try to talk to her the other day, I even had the post typed out and was ready to hit submit, but I figured that if you were going to have the talk, that YOU had to decide to do it and when. (I also thought I might get my a$$ chewed by some veterans for suggesting it) I could tell by the tone of your posts that you were either going to implode, or you were going to have the talk. I am glad it went well. So how did you leave the conversation? WHat are you feelings about things now?
Keep it up. I am sure that you feel like a huge monkey has been lifted from your back today.
B.I.T.S.
Habit,
The last time we ML before the bomb, I cried too! See, I knew something was wrong also! I obviously had no intentions on leaving, but I knew something was wrong. I actually think what she is saying is true and not necessarily the actions of a woman planning her escape.
LIS
One thing I would like others comments on, these teary eyed ML occasions were happening only 2 weeks from the bomb. She said she wasn't sure of the reason for the teary eyes. She knew something was wrong, just not sure what. Does this sound like a woman who was planning an escape? I don't wish to jump to any conclusions, but this just jumped out at me as strange feelings for someone who had a plan.
You'll probably never know Habit. Maybe it was something of a subconscious plan of escape or something a plan of escape that she simply didn't want to acknowledge to herself. Who knows? I'd probably let this go now though. What good does it do to continue to wonder about this?
BITS
Denver
nice baby steps habit!!!
Stay positive because there will be tough times. REMEMBER this time and keep that in your front burner so it keeps you going. It will be so easy to get down after that. Remember the hills and valleys.
Thanks everyone for your posts.
mj144, I don't really remember how we ended the conversation, it was late and I guess it just ended. She said, "That was a nice talk" and we went to bed. Not together, it wasn't that good of a talk. He He.
My feelings now? After the talk I was pretty high, I know something had to be done to release the tension, and something had to be done to try and show her the changes were for real, and about me.
I hope the biggest thing that comes out of the talk would be that she can try to start looking at the changes as real. Because she wasn't. She definately said she doesn't believe them, and even if they are real, how does she know they are not going to come back 10 years from now. I responded with, " I plan on having to work on myself for the rest of my life".
Now that the next day is here, everything is like the talk never happened, back to the same routine. But, that's ok, it is what I expected. I would of liked to see things open up a little, but I will just have to wait and see.
The bad parts of the conversation have set in today. Not really things she said, but reactions she had. I started the conversation with just plain out validating her feelings about not trying and feeling done, I never mentioned D. After validating I said that I really appreciated the time. Meaning she hasn't filed or anything. Her facial expression changed and it looked like she wasn't to happy about it. I think because I started by telling her that I understood how she felt, she thought I was going to tell her that we should procede with the D. I hope not, but this is the vibe I got.
She stood really firm. Like she is dead set in what she was doing. She wants D, She is done, She doesn't want to try. She did not say these things again, but as I did, and validated them, her actions were telling me "Yep, buster, you got it, that's the way it is." She was really showing steel resolve.
All of that was at the beginning of conversation, during the main validation part. As the conversation went on, basically me talking, things seemed to change I think. She would just listen, and then if something hit her, she would tell me something. No arguing or anything like that, just good conversation.
Then I brought up things that I thought happened in our marriage. I didn't want this to turn into a R talk but it did, because of me. I wanted her to know that I understood where my anger was coming from. So I told her about our communication. It stunk. She agreed, but with the look like she had never really thought much about it, but I was right. I saw she wasn't fighting me on any of this, so I kept plugging along.
I then told her, she keeps everything to herself, and I get angry when we don't know what to do communication wise. She seemed to agree. She said she was just the type to say something once, and that should be enough. I validated.
Anyway, I could write what we talked about all night. The point is, She started pretty much sticking to her guns that she was done, and as the conversation went on, she started bringing moments up from the past that bugged her, and stuff like that. I told her I was sorry and that I understand I was doing that, and it was wrong. If it was something I never realized before, I told her, " I am glad you told me, I didn't know that, it will give me one more thing I need to work on about myself.
She would get teary eyed when she talked about stuff. Mainly the stuff that hurt her. By the end of the conversation, she just stood up and said, "That was a nice talk", and that was the end.
I know I would have to get into greater detail, but with what I wrote, does anyone see her letting her guard down during this conversation?
It seemed to me like she had that wall up pretty high to start off with, and maybe the validation through her off, and she started peeking over the top of the wall to see what the heck was going on.
She doesn't talk about R. We never have, other than D-day. I have been waiting to validate her feelings, but she never shows any. Hiding like she has done for years.
Back when she told you about her C appointment, you missed an opportunity to do this. I can't remember everything you said, but it sounded like pursuit instead of just listening. When she said, "I've made up my mind," you replied something like, "You want to work on our M?" Instead, something like, "It's good to have clarity," or something neutral would be better.
SD
I lived in the same house as my H during our whole sitch, and we reconciled after 5 months. It was then another 2-3 years before I felt like I could say we were really solid and past the sitch. Mind you, H was in IC (and had been before the bomb, unbeknownst to me), I was in IC (post-bomb), and we started weekly MC pretty quickly after the bomb. H offered it, and I took it, though he said he was pretty sure he'd never be able to get his feelings back.
My H was also pursuing a woman at work. I found love letters he'd been writing and revising with a red pen (the careful revisions in red pen are still what kill me), and it was everything in me not to go downstairs, wake him up, and throw him out. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. But I did it, because acting out of emotion is never good.
So, what worked for me? What are the reasons I think I was able to reconcile my sitch?
1. I GAL like a crazy woman. GAL not only gives the spouse space, but it will improve your mood. Happy people are attractive, and happy people who "shouldn't" be happy (in the WAS mind at least) are mysterious. My H caught me singing and dancing in my nice new underwear one night when I was getting ready to go out. I didn't intend for him to see me, but it was one of those happy accidents.
Don't expect to be instantly happy when you GAL. You have to fake it 'til you make it sometimes. Getting out allowed me to focus on something other than my sitch for a while, and that helped a lot.
2. I treated H like a roommate. He was in the spare bedroom by his request, and I knew I needed to not pursue. So, I went about my business as if he was just my roommate. If he came home while I was there, I'd make pleasant, detached, brief conversation, and I let him initiate most of it. If he wanted to watch something on TV, I'd often go into my bedroom to watch a movie on my computer or surf. He asked for space, so I gave it to him.
3. I did my 180s to the point I could without pursuing him. He wanted more physical touch (one of his complaints), but he didn't really want it from me RIGHT THEN. WAS's are repulsed by us to an extent, so anything "romantic" is a turn off. Those 180's can be put into place once the spouse is open to it. He also wanted compliments, so I thanked him for taking out the trash or some of those roommate sort of things.
4. I reached the mental place where I know that while I PREFERRED to be married to my H, I COULD SURVIVE JUST FINE without him. That's detachment. Incidentally, it was just another few weeks after I reached that point that we reconciled.
5. If the OW would have been interested in my H, I think the situation would have been much longer and complicated. He'd started developing feelings for her in February, dropped the bomb on me in May, and went on all-out pursuit in June. She led him on a bit, but I always knew (I'd been around her) that she didn't feel tingly about my H. Part of what helped my sitch was she started dating a mutual friend of theirs who was also no friend to our M. I think H finally realized she wasn't interested and started to invest more into MC. It also helped that I listened like crazy and let H lead the MC sessions until he had nothing else to bring up. He'd been doing a lot of mind-reading, and our MC was excellent at pointing that out and helping us develop communication skills.
This is what worked for me, and now I have a really great marriage. It took a lot of work, a lot of conscious effort to become happy ON MY OWN (we tend to rely on our spouses to "make" us happy, when that's really OUR responsibility), and a lot of restraint when I wanted to R talk or lash out or cry or pursue or whatever.
Good luck!
SD
SDfoundgirl, thank you so much for your story and thoughts.
About your first post, you are right, I did miss that opportunity didn't I?
At the time I wasn't looking to validate her feelings, I didn't know at the time.
Back then: I started that R talk. Tried to get her to work on marriage. Turned into her telling me she wants a D.
Now: I again had to go to her for conversation, going in it to validate her feelings this time. She said it was a nice talk.
I like the results of the 2nd conversation better.
habit,
It's nice to see that after such a long time you are starting to see some progress. Slow and don't get over zelous but recognize the small victories! That convo was a small victory.
GREAT post SD. Thank you!
Thanks 2step, I am not sure if it is progress, but I will take it, whatever it is.
Nothing seems different since the talk, but I did not have expectations. Maybe a few hopes,but not expectations.
I take it as a step that had to be done to allow her to breath.
Sure, I would love to see some sort of change instantly, but I know that isn't going to happen. Hopefully it is just going to take time for her to absorb what happened, if she can.
habit, it was a step forward, definitely!
Take what SD posted to heart and follow it. I was pretty lucky in that I didn't have to endure a ton of time - NOT to say I'm out of the woods but still...
It takes different durations for different folks. Look at what you accomplished as a small victory and keep moving ahead. Chances are, the W WILL want to talk more eventually. Keep GAL and detach. She said the convo was good so she will want to do that again - ONLY when she wants to. If you're in her face, she won't want to.
If you away from her, she may.
Dude, it's tough but I can say that you should do the OPPOSITE of what you want to do. I know it doesn't make sense but for some reason, that works.
You are on the right track even if that train is barely moving. It will pick up steam.
SD - great to hear and thanks for giving us all inspiration!!!
SD,
I see a lot of parallels between your story and mine. Thanks for posting! I like your statement: "I PREFERRED to be married to my H, I COULD SURVIVE JUST FINE without him" and I am feeling like that too, more and more!
Sure, I would love to see some sort of change instantly, but I know that isn't going to happen. Hopefully it is just going to take time for her to absorb what happened, if she can.
This is a marathon, not a sprint, and piecing is 100x as hard as this part. You have to maintain detachment and take responsibility for your happiness even when times are good. It's when I forget that (or H does) that we fall into trouble.
SD
I have to admit the GAL part is a struggle. I have been so detached from W and family, it seems very wrong to do more of the same.
I am trying to figure out what to do for myself. My most successful 180 or GAL has been my relationship with my kids. It has been great. It didn't take much at all, and they were on me like static cling. I wish it could be as easy with W.
All my time has been focused on the kids. This has been great, but it is taking it's toll. I need something else.
We live in a very small town about 50 miles from anything. The only thing we have is a local bar. I tried going tonight, there were 5 people there which were regulars, if you know what I mean. I was back home in 10 minutes. I have to do something, I am going to go nuts.
Another problem is that when I do leave the house, I feel like I am just leaving her at home with the kids. I don't want her to feel like I can just go do whatever I want because she is there to watch the kids. This would be more of the same.
She never complained about this, but she did mention something about her doing stuff with the kids all the time, which is her life, but doesn't remember what she used to do for fun.
Now we both sit here wandering what we used to do for fun. Well the answer is, that we had eachother for fun, now we are lost because we don't have that. We were probably to dependant on eachother, but when things were good, that was fine.
My very big, expensive, time consuming hobby's have ended. They had to. W thinks I ended them because of what is happening, but she is wrong, it needed to end. My kids were growing up and I was missing it. I was realizing this all summer long, way before the bomb.
So for about a year or more now, I have noticed that I needed to change my life. I was beginning to grow up and see what I wanted to do, and bam, the bomb. It seems like such a shame. I was ready to make a change that probably would of kept all this from happening, but I just didn't make it in time.
Getting hit with the 2x4 sure speeded things up, but it is such a shame that she thinks all of my changes are because of the bomb, when I was already beginning them before. I wish I would of just woke up a year earlier.
Anyway, my new hobby is my kids, but that isn't enough if you know what I mean. I need something more personal, I just don't know what other than my W.
First, good for you for doing more things with your kids. That was a needed change, and I guarantee your wife is noticing. Yes, she might think it's "just because" of the bomb (the kids and dropping the hobbies)...my H thought the same thing. What's going to get her attention is your steadfast commitment to those changes.
In short, your ACTIONS, not your WORDS, are what get her attention.
What interests do you have? What have you always wanted to do, but haven't? During my sitch, I started going to Meetup.com groups for movie watching, photography, hiking, travel, sushi, and a whole bunch of other things. That was a HUGE 180 for me, as I've struggled with social anxiety for most of my life. It was something my H didn't understand at all, so doing these things got his attention too. I also started exercising, walking probably 3-5 miles/day and going to yoga. The exercise was HUGELY important--activity helps work out all of those nerves and anxiety.
So, I know you're 50-miles away from anything. What would be the problem with going that 50-miles once every week or two weeks to engage in an activity you'd like to try? If you're worried about your W resenting being home with the kids, you could offer to stay home with them so she could do the same.
"W, I want to do XYZ every couple of weeks, so I'd appreciate it if you could watch the kids on those days. If you'd like to make plans out of the house any day, just let me know and I'll be happy to stay with the kids so you can go out too."
That's IT. No explanations, nothing. Just a friendly, fair offer to share the workload.
Do you have friends where you live? Start spending some time with them. No need for the bar; go shoot hoops, watch a game, play cards. Having company is important. My H dropped the bomb after we moved to a new city, so I had NO ONE at first. Remember that I also had social anxiety, so it was a double blow...truly about the cruelest thing I think H could have done.
But...I sucked it up, went to Meetup groups, and made friends I still have today. It was such a relief to be around someone who didn't look at me like I was the junk on the bottom of their shoe.
There are also lots of other hobbies you could take on at home. Writing, art (don't worry about being good on either of those...just do it, because the act of creation is soooo fun and healthy!), photography, puzzles...what are your interests???
It's essential to discover what you want to do with your free time. It's not healthy to have everything wrapped up in your spouse. Even now, my H have things we do together and things we enjoy that we do apart. It gives us a lot to talk about when we reconnect after doing those things. I relied too heavily on my H for my fun and happiness...and in the end, it was poison to me and our M.
Hope that helps,
SD
I will have to take some time to think about this.
She mentioned in out talk that she doesn't remember what she did for herself that was fun, or what made her happy. I think she feels like she lost her identity.
I feel guilty going out, and it is hard to offer her equal time to go out and do something when she never does anything, she never has. She really has no friends other than the people she works with.
I have tried to remember what she did for fun, or what made her happy. The only thing I can come up with is me. I remember her having fun and being happy with me.
I do not understand why she feels I did something to take away her identity. The only thing I can come up with is that over the years I got involved with hobby's and so much other stuff. I had a life other than her, she didn't. Maybe that is what happened, she depended on me completely for her happiness, somewhat the way I am for her since the bomb. For our 8 dating years, and our first 3 or 4 years of marriage nothing else was involved other than eachother, and it was great, but when I started spending so much time on things such as hobby's, it left her with not much.
It must be like you say, being to dependant on eachother for happiness can be dangerous. It is wonderful when you both give 100% of our attention to eachother, but when other interests get involved on only one side of the sitch, someone gets left out in the cold if they have nothing else in their lives.
I got so busy, I didn't do much with her. She didn't know what to do without me. Now, I don't know what to do without her, and she wants nothing to do with me. What a vicious circle.
the thing is, she is the only one who can find that out. My W had to literally go back to where she grew up to help find out who she was. I'm lucky in the fact that she found out and realized she has a pretty good life right now.
If you try to help her, she may resent it. It's a slippery slope because if you were her happiness, you want to be there for her.
Maybe it's time for a little talk regarding that? Be understanding but don't necessarily give solutions.
Bolt, I think you are correct, but I am going to take my time and wait for a good opportunity.
Of course I waited for her to come to me so I could give the validation talk and I finally had to make the move first, which I think turned out ok.
I have been so stuck on not going to her for R talk. This is basic DBing, but I know my wifes personality, and she doesn't take the first step very often. So if I am going to have to make the move, it will have to be good timing, and well thought out.
It would be kind of hard to tell her the thing she is missing in her life that used to make her happy is me. I bet she would find that hard to believe.
Does anyone have any knowledge on the book, "Marriage and other acts of charity"? Thanks.
It would be kind of hard to tell her the thing she is missing in her life that used to make her happy is me. I bet she would find that hard to believe.
I wouldn't advise you to tell her that.
It sounds as if your W not only depended on you to
make her happy, but she
allowed herself to be defined by
you. She isn't happy with
herself so she blames you. I'm not certain that you are the one to explain that to her. Not only would she find it hard to believe, but she would resent it.
I don't know what it might take to get a fire under her, but as long as she can point a finger at you and say you're to blame for everything negative in her life, then she will never grow as a person.
I'm not just trying to find words to say here...I really believe she needs to learn to be "responsible" for her own happiness. And, you need to refuse to take the responsibility for her happiness! Can you see that you have been taking the responsibility for that?
I understand that you feel bad about being gone so much in the past and all that revolved around it, but trying to make amends by becoming her happiness will not hold up. There are some things that a person has to learn for themselves or have an outside person guide them. I think this is one of those things.
It's not being mean, but it may be difficult, b/c you want to help her so much. It's like applying tough love. If truth be known, there have been many M's to come to an end simply b/c the W or H was trying to find happiness.....and the problem was the individual, not their S.
Thanks sandi, I understand what you are saying. I suppose what got me thinking about this was in our talk last week she had mentioned that she doesn't remember what made her happy.
I have been thinking about this a bunch. Looking back I am trying to find what made her happy. I can see why she can't find it. She never had any hobby's, and had no friends that she ever went out with. She has friends at work, but it ends at work.
I have had a huge hobby for years, and friends I went out with, but I realize I wasn't happy either. This kind of explains where anger was coming from.
When I look back to when we were both happy, all we had was eachother. We made eachother happy, there was nothing else.
I am told that we can not depend on eachother for happiness, we both need other things in our lives, but we were both happy when all we had was eachother. When I got hobby's and friends I was not there for her. I know she should do the same, but then again, my hobby's and friends did not make me happy, I was happiest when it was all her and I. I believe it was the same for her.
I know she is searching for something. There is a article lying here by the computer that is titled, "Welcome to the 9 rooms of happiness". from Self magazine. I see there is an order confirmation E-mail that she ordered this book and researched the one I posted above, but did not order it. I take this as a sign that maybe she is taking a step, but maybe I shouldn't.
Sorry, writing in a hurry, it is probably pretty icky.
Thanks again.
Just after getting over what to do on christmas, now valentines day is here. Not only valentines day, but our 20th year anniversary of being together.
I have this giant banner that says Happy Valentines Day (wifes name). 20 years ago in the middle of the night during a blizzard I covered the front of her high school with it, and had her locker filled with roses. This is how I got her attention to go out with me. A picture of the school even made the local newspaper.
I have gone from extreme pursuing 20 years ago, to not even knowing if I can give her a card this year.
I have this giant banner that says Happy Valentines Day (wifes name). 20 years ago in the middle of the night during a blizzard I covered the front of her high school with it, and had her locker filled with roses. This is how I got her attention to go out with me. A picture of the school even made the local newspaper.
WOW! You obviously have a great imagination! Don't think of the old fall-back plan of card, flowers & candy, b/c you need something very different due to your stitch.
What day is your wedding anniversary?
Habitacker,
I think our WAW suffer from very similar problems. My wife used to think I hung the moon. Now, she says I don't even know who I am anymore. Her feelings for me have changed, due to our bad marriage habits, and she is trying to find herself. Unfortunately, she feels she must do this alone. So much alone, that she is going to move out.
The only thing that makes my wife happy right now is extreme social behavior. Being out with friends, co-workers. She doesn't drink every time, but she is out late everytime she canbe. this puts a huge amount of stress on me because all indicators point to an affair. But there is no affair. I get very jealous at times.
I have to let go, and let her find herself. Let her find her happiness. HER WAY. If I can stay happy and positive in my life, and she can be happy in hers, maybe the good memories, our kids, and the great life we have earned for ourselves will appear to her and she will want to participate.
Wedding anniversary is in August, that would be 12 years.
Valentine's day is the anniversary of us being together, 20 years. Not as important as wedding, but valentines's day has a little more meaning than just valentine's day.
I am not sure if I should do anything, wouldn't that seem pursuing?
I've decided that I am going to do something nice for the kids and maybe plan a nice family dinner. Not going to make any specific mention of it to the W, as she knows I've never really liked the "corporate" holiday known as Valentine's Day - and she'd be sure to remind me if do anything for her.
At most I may decide to just get her a simple card, but may just help the girls to make a card for her.
I'm doing so well being detaching and difusing the sitch, that I really don't want to mess it up by doing something she'll perceive as "pursuing".
At the same time I'd love to buy her some flowers, and card and some nice lingerie...but that will have wait for now.
It is hard to know which way to go.
I don't want to pursue, but I also do not want to offend by not doing enough.
Hey habit,
If you don't mind me saying I think you are putting way to much thought into the DB thing. I look at it more as a guideline not necessarily a one size fits all script that you must follow to the letter, hence the term do what works.
You had a nice convo the other day and she got some stuff off her chest. You felt great and she felt great. I don't know your W but you do.
Would inviting her out to dinner just for the evening be perceived as pursuing? I really would depend on the situation.
Last week my W was having a rough week. I sent her flowers. That is pursuing, I thought I wouldn't hear from her for a week, you know what I got? A 6 hr convo and her on the DB session. It worked.
I am not saying send her a singing telegram hire a clown and juggling monkeys or anything but a nice simple "W would you like to go to dinner on Vday just the two of us" would suffice.
Just my two cents..............
Tough call for me too Habit. I agree with 2Step and think that you need to follow your gut feeling on it. For me, 2 weeks ago I would definitely not be considering doing anything for the day. Now though, I have more to consider. Follow your instincts.
Mine doesn't deserve it at this point.
She keeps showing me she doesn't want me and doesn't care even though she sees me changing, so my focus is detaching making her "believe" that I don't want or need her.
Pursuing in anyway is not working, it doesn't matter whether she expects it or not. Let's make them do some [censored] work for a change.
Sorry guys, I'm frustrated at the moment and don't feel like being optimistic.
BITS
SIC
Hang in there SIC. I completely understand. Continue being patient. It is going to take a while for her to begin to wonder if she is really losing you.
Well guys, I am torn. I want to ask her out, but also afraid of the denial. I do believe I have to take a step sometine though, just like the validation talk. Waiting for her I believe will never happen.
I believe I have the patience to wait for her to come to me with things such as R talk, but the way she keeps things to herself is a big reason we are here in the first place. I am sure I am going to have to take the first step on almost everything, the problem is getting my other foot to follow.
I got burned so bad on my first attempt many months ago, that now I am pretty gun shy, but I believe more experienced.
I thought about asking her if I made reservations for dinner, would she like to go? I want to be prepared with a response if she denies. I thought about just saying, "ok, but I am still going" or "ok" I will find a widow in town that deserves a nice dinner on valentines day".
No matter what her response, I am not going to be home that night. If she wants to stay home and not be happy on v-day, fine. If I am not going to be happy on v-day, I am at least going to try to be.
2step, I can sing a little, I know how to juggle, and I am pretty sure she sees me as some sort of monkey. You sure that won't work?
Well, I asked if she was interested in going out to eat on V-day. I just made it a simple question. She shot me down. I told her, "That is fine, but being Valentines day I felt I should ask". She was nice and said that's ok.
I don't think I have been shot down since I was a sophomore in high school. I can't believe I am actually laughing to myself about this.
Well you better get the balls out and start juggling. If you knew this was a possibility then take it for what it is