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Need Insight IV

Posted By: InAPickle

Need Insight IV - 01/17/11 11:51 AM

Guess I need to start a new thread.
Here's the link to the last one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...411#Post2120411
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/17/11 12:05 PM

Had a good camping trip with S12 this weekend.
Even though I froze anytime I had to leave the bonfire,
it was still really nice to "get away" from W for two nights.
Praise God, thoughts of W, M, & sitch were absent for hours at a time.
Got home Sunday AM. No change in her attitude.

She's "acting as if" I'm just a room mate and avoids all talk except things like, "what time's the game on? Do we need anything from the grocery store?" etc. etc. She totally avoids even friendly talk. Strange, very strange.

While I was away, D17 had a friend sleep over, so W had to use "our bed" (for the first time in months).
I know she must miss the actual bed; it's way better than the couch or S17's spare twin. Anyway last night I said goodnight loud enough for her to hear - got nothing, silence.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/17/11 02:24 PM

Originally Posted By: InAPickle
She's "acting as if" I'm just a room mate and avoids all talk except things like, "what time's the game on? Do we need anything from the grocery store?" etc. etc. She totally avoids even friendly talk. Strange, very strange.



Sounds like she's DBing you. I suggest you do the same.


Starsky
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/17/11 06:19 PM

Forgot to mention, tomorrow's W's birthday.
She's getting nothing - from me.

I remember at Christmas she said don't get me anything.
Nothing's changed, since then.

I'll suggest we go should out to eat as a family or pick up a cake maybe.
Kid's still don't know about OM, and it puts me in poor light if I don't do anything special.

And to be honest I'm kind of miffed that she and OM are texting and calling all day every day.
How long does the teenage behavior last?

Any suggestions?
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/17/11 06:56 PM

My guess Pickle, unfortunately, is that it is going to last until it burns out. From what I've heard, this can go on for a very long time. 6 months? I may, or may not, be in the same sitch. I really have no idea these days since W is not living in the home and I don't ask about OM. There just really isn't anything good to say about it I'm afraid.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 12:50 AM

Well tonight I brought up the b-day.
Suggested we go out to dinner as a family.
It's somewhat of a tradition.
She says no, she wants to go to tennis.
Tuesday nights she has tennis clinic.
So I said, "Let's do it for the kids."
She says, "No it's MY birthday; I'm going to tennis."
I said "Okay."
And that was the end of that convo.

I should seriously change my handle from Pickle to Petruchio.
Posted By: dbmod

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 12:53 AM

I'm sorry, Pickle.

What's your game plan now?
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 12:57 AM

Originally Posted By: dbmod
I'm sorry, Pickle.

What's your game plan now?


Wait.
I think Denver's right.
She'll either file and have me served,
or not.

I dunno - getting fed up of doing.
Think I'll do nothing for a while.
Posted By: Sad_but_happy

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 04:09 AM

Pickle. She is playing hard ball with you and she is winning.

The goal as my IC stated is to "make her miss you"...

The only way to do that is to GAL, and have fun living YOUR life.

Trust me when I say that it is sooooo easier said then done. You long for any sign of the "old her"...

She is gone for now. Stop asking her ANYTHING!

Don't ask if shes hungry
Don't ask if shes thursty
Don't ask if shes tired
Don't ask if she wants to go to dinner
Don't ask if she wants to exchange gifts
Don't ask if she wants to see a movie

get it!

You are pursuing. You are looking for a positive reaction, something, anything, you are desperate...

This is all understandable and it will take unreal strength to stop, but STOP YOU MUST!!!

Please Pickle, STOP! She knows it's her birthday! She knows you want to take her out! She sees your desperation...

Your better off just writing a little note so she knows that her birthday is important to you without pursuing.

Example: "Just wanted to wish you a Happy Birthday"...

Then go and do something for yourself... I feel your pain Pickle but your W has too much power. Take it back!
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 04:15 AM

Originally Posted By: InAPickle
Originally Posted By: dbmod
I'm sorry, Pickle.

What's your game plan now?


Wait.
I think Denver's right.
She'll either file and have me served,
or not.

I dunno - getting fed up of doing.
Think I'll do nothing for a while.


I would just say that instead of doing nothing, go do something for yourself for a while. I'm having a horrible time coming to terms with the term 'detaching', but I have taken on GAL pretty well. But I'd agree with Sad But Happy's advice as far as trying to do stuff for your W. Stop. At least for a while.
Posted By: FellOnBlackDays

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 05:44 AM

Pickle,
I want to second the motions here. Stop what you are doing. Next time she is rude to you or ignores you. Smile and walk away. Go find a quiet place and read DR. Get your game plan in place and use it. I did not see one positive reaction from my W until I had a game plan and stuck to it. Yes, it was very difficult and I am still very, very scared. But you have to stick to it for yourself and your M. Is she still acts like a jerk to you, you may want to adjust your plan. But, please stop going after her. You can't win that game and you will only hurt yourself in the process. Good luck!

FOBD
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 10:14 PM

This is a delicate sitch as they say.

I stopped pursuing after reading DR in October/November.

I have been about as detached as I can get with W still in the same house.

I have been GALing as far as taking care of my own "fun" so to speak.

180's are more subtle things like not complaining about her spending and doing more fun stuff with the kids, but nothing that's going to appear fake. I'm not going to go 180 if it's not genuine.

I don't see her missing me at all while still living together and she's texting and calling OM it seems every spare minute from the phone records. She does not know I've seen the records.

Neither one of us can afford to move out and neither one of us wants to be away from kids or disrupt their lives. I wouldn't want to be accused of abandonment if D ever happens.

So that in a nutshell is why I am in waiting mode.

The long distance EA with exH will either grow or fizzle, neither of which I have any control of. If she really wants the D, she'll have to initiate legal action.

Today's her B-day and though I did say HB this morning, I did not even get her a card (technically). I did get one for the kids to sign and give her. I made myself go to the bathroom when she opened it. I don't think that's pursuing.

And no I have not come up with any other plan. Still wondering what to do (or not do).
Posted By: Sad_but_happy

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 11:10 PM

I admire you Pickle. I have no idea how you or any other of these fine DB'ers can hold back from calling out W on PA's and EA's...

I would be absolutly beside myself and could not hold back for even a moment.

I'm sure that would work against me and make my W leave. Or maybe she would wake up and come running back. I guess you have to be willing to take that chance. And for my own sanity I would be willing to take that chance.

I guess my reasoning is this: If my W is having A while she is my WIFE (I had to spell it out), Then that's not what I want for a W... I guess I would figure that there MUST be someone better out there for me... Would I be in extreme pain, dang right! But I would be in MORE pain letting it go on...

This is just MHO... In all sincerity, I truly respect your ability to hold back.
Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/18/11 11:54 PM

Are you ok with what your doing Pickle?

I know its hard, your logic is sound, just make sure it doesn't eat you up.

Your 180's are smart, obtainable and done for the right reason.

Good for you man.
Posted By: angel61

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 12:03 AM

SBH, I tell you, its hard to hold back but smetimes, what is your choice, really?

I have been on both sides - at first I let H have EA , with him acting almostjust like Pickle's W - texting, calling OW every spare minute, although the difference was that he would at times try to be nice to me, be a was being a friend - which made it a bit more bearable.

Then I tried the hard line stance- ultimatum. I did get what I wanted, but it was a huge risk. Although at that point, OW had cut off contact with H, so I was confident he wouldn't choose to leave us.

Now I think they are back in contact, and hiding. That tells me many things. One is that OW probably is reciprocating now and so the situation is more dangerous than ever. The only reason I see that H might be staying is that she does not want to lose D12. So I am not able to enforce the boundaries that I had set earlier.

So I am back in the same situation as Pickle... detaching, living each day with a roomate, not even a friend, maybe in the hopes that things will someday fizzle, pass away, hoping that each month, year that passes will make both me and D12 stronger for the day that H will leave.

Status quo is better than all the pain that divorce will bring, I figure. Think about it - lawyers, court dates, finances, childcare issues ....ugghhh! True, sometimes I feel like I have stuck my head into my as* so I won't have to deal with it, but another rationlization is that time is gold.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 12:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Sad_but_happy
I admire you Pickle. I have no idea how you or any other of these fine DB'ers can hold back from calling out W on PA's and EA's...
.


Is this case I had to decide what would work and what would not, keeping in mind the ultimate goal of saving the M.

I tried the hard tack, but it only seemed to steel her resolve about ending the M (very pigheaded W).

First goal was to postpone D at least until after the holidays. Controlling the anger and other emotions helped.

I also had to accept the reality that I have no control over W and OM.

Then I had to come to terms with being 50% responsible for the failure of our R. Otherwise, after 18yrs how could she be so easily seduced? What kind of person would cultivate a R with another person before ending it with their spouse, certainly not the person I married?

The first month was terrible, couldn't function, emotional basket case. Second month was not much better. I'm in the third month now and more detached.

It helps that OM lives in OH, while we're in FL. I don't know what I'd do if he were within PA distance. She did visit OM one w/e in Dec for a Browns/Bengals game, but I cannot "presume" anything. It wouldn't do me any good anyway to think about it. And that has been half the battle, not torturing myself with snooping and wild imagination. It does no good and inhibits detachment.

Next goal, postpone D for another month. A few weeks ago, she told S17 that mom and dad would get D at the end of January. We'll wait and see.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 12:14 AM

Whoops, I meant D17 in that last sentence.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 12:20 AM

You're doing all that you can do Pickle. And, while there was a time when I would have jumped on SBH's bandwagon about A's, I think that you are doing the right thing.

SBH - I understand what you are saying, but honestly, no one really knows how they will truly react to any given situation until they are actually faced with it. That's something that I've definitely learned through this process. There are just so many factors that can be involved with each particular sitch. There really isn't any true "black and white" area with any of these situations. Most of us, if not all, are dealing with gray. That is the reality once we find ourselves here.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 12:40 AM

Honestly folks, I'm driving by the seat of my pants and navigating by dead reckoning; it's all instinct and intuition.

Or - I hope it is grace.

God only gives you the grace to handle something, during the times you actually need it. That's why it is so difficult for us to grasp how some people handle or survive in certain situations, when we have only our imaginations and not the experience.

If it makes you feel better SBH, if OM ever shows up, I have an aluminum baseball bat with his name on it.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 01:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
Are you ok with what your doing Pickle?
.


I dunno Jack.
I dunno.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 01:25 AM

I am going to repost some really insightful posts from TrueGritter that I cut and pasted to my journal. These have really helped me understand why I am choosing to Stand for my M. Think that they maybe helpful to you Pickle and maybe some others here. It is very long, but well worth the time IMO.
--------

THE TEMPTATION IN THE FACE OF COMPLETE REJECTION

It is that bargaining process between who you are. YOUR character. VS the EGO or self preservation.

Someone is doing things to you... so naturally you blame them and ask yourself why would I do this for them?

The tempatation is to leave the process...to leave your decision to stand. To leave or try to control your spouse. To attach outcomes to your decision to stand.

This is the step I was missing!

IMO standing is an essential part of the healing process of the LBS. You will constantly questions this throughout. At least I have up to this point.

You will ask yourself questions like "WTF am I doing this for this person?"

In the beginning we want answers.

Why did this happen?

How could they do this?
Who am I?
What do I believe in?
What do my vows mean to me?
Why do I hurt?

And the BIG ONE...

What is it about ME that made them leave?

IMO you don't get answers unless you choose to take the hard road, STAND, and go on the journey.

At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...

As time goes on and your expectations aren't met you question again...

It is all part to of the journey. You may even have trouble articulating why you are doing this to other people or yourself.

Then you start to look inside....

Then you start to see who YOU are...

Then you realize that this is part of YOU

What you have chosen is part of YOU and your character. So what began out of a search for answers for why and what is wrong with you. Out of hurt for what someone did to you...

You see it all has to do with who YOU are. The best part of who YOU are and then...

It is no longer about what THEY choose or why.

It is about YOU.

I have been trying to figure out what is the source of
my wanting to escape,
my anxiousness,
my dread
my fear.

And it is the WHAT IF?

the conditions I place on my life.

What IF W doesn't come back THEN?
What IF I stand and W doesn't want M THEN?
What IF I make this decision THEN What?

If I place conditions/exceptions to my life then I compromise my life.

When I took my vows did I mean: I will love you all the days of my life, BUT if you get so scared and lose your way then I won't?

It's those damn BUTs! I am stuck because of BUTs

I am paralyzed because of BUTs.

I know what I need to kill now.

When I get up with fear and anxiousness it's because of the fear of what may happen. I want to escape from that fear. The self doubt that creates it.

If you walk out into the world everyday with your truth then there is only...

What was (and you have learned from it)
What is (Your truth)
What is to come (through living your truth)

There is no regret.

No second guessing.

No doubt.

The only way to fail is to fail yourself.

-----


Several of us, myself included, are moving through this journey and have encountered what I believe is a major sign post.

An essential step.

An understanding.

An awakening of sorts.

I am referring to that moment when one reconciles the dilemna of STANDING.

I have written already about the fact that as we begin this journey we decide to STAND.

We STAND because of what I will call BASE factors

We want our M back

We want our spouse to want us back

We want our spouse to see us as the more desirable option

We want to ease our own pain

We want our own self esteem back

We (may) want to punish spouse by appearing to be morally superior

We want ________ because we get _________ in return.

We STAND on these principles.

We communicate these principles and inevitably we meet with question and resistance.

From family, friends and

from ourselves.

Because it is hard for most people to imagine themselves making this decision.

It is a sacrifice of sorts at this stage.

We are looked on as victims of bad behavior, incongruent behavior to REAL LOVE.

So in that light we begin to feel like victims or that we are being taken advantage of in a sense and are perceived as such by the world. A DOORMAT if you will.

As time goes on and those who care about us begin to be more concerned about our mental and emotional health and question more emphatically why we choose to be a DOORMAT.

Or how long will you be a DOORMAT.

Then you begin to doubt yourself and your decision and the focus goes back to your beloved and now you look on them not with eyes of a scourned lover, a left behind, abandoned spouse, but with real scrutiny.

We begin to question why we would SACRIFICE our own happiness and endure such hardship to regain the love of a person who so obviously is not capable of the same for us or even anyone else.

It is then that the MIRACLE happens.

Through all the pain and seemingly fallow soil a sprout

of green punches through...

This growth is something new and it

is OURS, we planted it, we sowed it

For it is certain our seed was trampled upon many times before

it took root.

But it did take root and

it grows, upwardly reaching, toward the light.

The miracle is the love for yourself.

You are no longer the choices your spouse makes

You are no longer whether your M reconciles or not

You are no longer the failures you see in yourself

You are no longer a victim because only YOU can choose to be one.

Then you a FREE

Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.

This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.

Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.

What is means to love.
-------

What I am speaking of really is love.

This is a choice.

As we move through this journey it is a process of self discovery. The LBS starts out with a lot of hurt and pain and self doubt.

I have already written about this transition from standing out of wanting answers and pain- to doing it as a choice for you.

To get to this point you must have detached completely and also to get here some may decide to go black as you have suggested Time.

I did have to do that for a time.

The choice to love is really to put yourself at risk and we have suffered the greatest pain of that risk in the betrayal that was returned.

When I speak of the light going on and off I mean that those are the conditions. ANY conditions. ANY behaviors that we have let play out from our own fears and weaknesses. These are the things we find in OURSELVES that we want to change. That we MUST change to be who we want to be.

Who we want to be is the LIGHT I speak of. It must be constant and it must be consistent. It cannot be contingent on some suffering that cannot be endured. It cannot be contingent on some action or non-action of your spouse.

To love (as we know it) is to suffer until you see what love is. This is so much part of who I am that it cannot be separated.

Love is the absence of suffering. But that absence of suffering comes from your OWN choice not because:

your spouse decided to come back
or decided to be nice to you
Or wasn't mean to you
Or agreed with you
or stopped seeing OP
or ANY F@CKING THING.

It is YOUR choice

That is the light that shines.

That is the miracle of which I speak

If you can get to THAT place then you see that your spouse is on their journey and you love them enough to be committed to their growth.

That growth means you step out of the way. You completely let go with love.

If they call you.

Why would you not answer that call?

Only if you still suffer. If you suffer then you are not there yet.

My W will continue to suffer and be in pain. I will no longer be part of that. I choose rather to be part of the solution.

For me that means love of the most extraordinary variety.

For me that means to be the man I am now becoming.
------------

There is something I need to put down here.

I didn't undertsand that I had come through a major part of my journey until I recently looked back.

We start this journey by deciding on which path to take.

The one that leads us here is covered in briars and brambles. It is the tougher road.

What is it we seek at the end?

In the beginning it is to R our M.

And to heal ourselves.

To understand.

Along the way we do get answers

And we grow and understand.

Now at this point is where we just feel joy at our new found self. Our pain is manageable and we have confidence and courage in ourselves and so we look down the path and keep walking. And now the path is open and the sun shines down on us.

It is this part of the journey that we RECEIVE grace.

I know this has a mystical religious connotation. To me it is the capacity and ability to understand compassion and love.

And in my mind it can be given and received.

Receiving grace is wonderful and it makes us feel like we can go do anything.

When this happened for me I was overcome with joy.

Then I looked back at my W and wondered could she ever get to where I am.

She is really lost, I can't imagine spending my life with someone knowing what I know now, that doesn't get it. That isn't where I am.

What is the upside to me waiting?

Here is where the path diverges again in the wood.

He is where we feel we can choose the path with our new self and live a joyous life. We have finally found the path to happiness.

Was our goal to only come here and heal? To grow and find our new self?

I say to you all thank you for the GRACE you have GIVEN me. I'll be on my way.

Bye MLC/WAS. I know you are just confused and scared and well I really don't think you are capable of being a person I can be with now...

...Now that I am confident and the opposite of the way you made me feel.

Then if I do THAT what makes me any different than what she did to me?

She saw fault in me that she believed could not be changed.

But I am different aren't I?

The temptation in the face of complete rejection?

My spouse continues to reject themselves.

Or

Is this an opportunity for me to live what I believe.

To give the GRACE I have been given.

By leaving my spouse I confirm to them all the doubt they have in themselves, all the doubt they have about love and our M.

I have an opportunity, NOT an obligation.

An opportunity to live the true expression of what I believe it means to love another.

To give grace, to express love with no expectation...

of anything in return.

For me that is standing for my M in the face all doubt.

I know I do not have to say this to her.

My decision and my actions will speak this to her.

Until I have gone long enough so that I am whole.

I don't know how long that is.

I think I will know.
Posted By: Sad_but_happy

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 02:23 AM

It's OK Pickle. I don't feel beat up. I have to say what I feel and stand for what I believe.

You are all correct when you say that I have no idea how I would act if she told me she decided to go with OM after all these positives.

But I set the ultimatum a few months ago with W and I believe that I could not live with OM in W's life. Keep in mind the following:

1. OM is single
2. OM is 32 (W is 39)
3. OM is good looking
4. OM is a professional
5. OM lives close

Now, if you were to ask me if OM would stay with my W long term, I don't believe he would. She is older, has kids, can't have any more, does not work full time (I am not putting her down, but from the prospective of a 32 year old man, I'm sure he does not want to support her (speculation)). And if he does, good luck to them...

But that does not mean he would not visit the candy store. She looks good. And he would partake.

So, all that said, if W chooses OM, she can leave the bedroom, move out, support herself. She will not eat the cake that I purchase and share that cake with OM. She can purchase her own cake or he can purchase it for her (until HE gets sick of it).

They can choke on it for all I care!

I know I have a hard line approach but realize this; I am of the opinion that we are BOTH to blame for our failed marriage. NOT just me. So she DOES NOT have a right to disrespect me, to cheat, to see OM. I admit to my faults but she has them too. This is an even playing field.

Unpopular it may be, but I'm not here to be popular...
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 01:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Pickle
I don't see her missing me at all while still living together and she's texting and calling OM it seems every spare minute from the phone records. She does not know I've seen the records.


Pickle I would stop this if I were you.

Some may disagree.

If your goal is to detach then this will only cause you pain to read it and know what is happening. You will live it alongside her.

Stop watching her and start living for you. Just live.

Denver I am humbled that you found my words of use to share them here. I believe each word.

It is always amazing to me to read them and remember my journey and how it unfolded.

My friends this takes time if you read what I wrote up there it came aLONG the way.

... and really hard work to ask yourself questions every day.

If you suffer ask yourself why. Ask yourself what YOU control.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 03:00 PM

Grit: "Pickle I would stop this if I were you."

I know, it tortures me to see this stuff.
But I had two reasons.

1. I wanted to compare the volume from month to month, to see if there were any changes.

2. I wanted to have the evidence on an EA in case we got to court and W denied existance of OM.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 06:43 PM

Grit - I found many of your posts extremely inspiring. And the posts that I copied onto Pickle's thread here have helped me understand why I am not feeling the anger towards my W that I always thought I would in this type of situation. Why I still care about my M despite the emotional pain that my W is putting me through right now. I certainly have not advanced to the good emotional state that you were in when those words came to you, but I think that they have helped me move in that direction. I no longer feel that my 'standing' for M is making me a 'doormat', and that my reasons for standing are true to myself and to the vows that I made when I married my W.

I'm really glad that you don't mind me plagiarizing your words. I don't think that it will be the last time.
Posted By: angel61

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 06:45 PM

Denver,

Thank you for sharing the post from True gritter. I copied and pasted it on my solution journal as well.

I always visit your threads - Pickle, SAH - as somehow I feel like my sitch mirrors yours more, even the way my H acts, in spite of the differences in gender. I l;earn a lot from reding your threads.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 06:55 PM

Grit's words have helped me understand a lot about what is going on with me. Thanks Angel. I was keeping up with your sitch but lost track of it. Don't think that I've seen it pop up recently.
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Pickle
1. I wanted to compare the volume from month to month, to see if there were any changes.


I understand this and when you've had enough you'll stop.


Originally Posted By: Pickle
2. I wanted to have the evidence on an EA in case we got to court and W denied existance of OM.


I wouldn't worry about this one. I am not a lawyer so if you have one and he told you to do this...then it's your choice.

FL right?

You don't have to prove it and it won't matter.

I may be wrong but Fl is a no fault state with car accidents and marriages so you can pretty much cause all the damage you want with no responsibility.

I am simpliflying this of course Pickle.

Protect yourself, legally, financially, emotionally and any other way she may hurt you and live your life like she ain't comin' back.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/19/11 07:30 PM

I am a lawyer Pickle and most states are "no fault". Check for yourself with FL to be sure though. If it is no fault, as Grit said, it makes no difference what she is doing now with OM.

I know that it is probably harder for you than for me bc you and your W are still in the same home, but snooping would probably drive me to they asylum if I were doing it. I have absolutely no idea of what is going on bw W and her EA, or whatever, with OM. BC I don't ask her, don't ask SS, and don't snoop. I've heard a few things through the grapevine that would support nothing going on, but I've also heard a few things that would suggest that there is. I really have no idea. It still drives me crazy, but I just don't know what I would gain by snooping. YOu're either going to find bad news, which you have. Or your not going to find anything...which proves NOTHING.
Posted By: FellOnBlackDays

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/20/11 03:29 AM

Pickle,
I have to agree with Grit. You might want to stop this approach for now. It sounds like you are getting no where and you are driving yourself crazy in the process. Take some time to work on another plan. Go back to DB and read the parts specifically for you again. Then focus on a different approach. Right now, it sounds like you are spinning your wheels in place and making yourself miserable. Yes, this is much easier to say than do. But, I don't want you to make yourself any worse than you are right now. We want to see you succeed. Work on a new plan and pitch it here. That way you can get another set of "eyes" on your plan before you execute.

Good luck and hang in there!

FOBD
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/20/11 02:45 PM

Just a little journaling here.

Do you guys remember that before Xmas I reported that when I was praying, I felt God telling me "one more month" I assumed for some sign, something, anything?

I think W might be trying to break the ice, but I cannot be sure.

Beginning yesterday, she seems to be talking to me a little more, and I mean a "little". If up to now she spoke a dozen words a day to me, well it's up to 24. If before she actually seemed uncomfortible talking to me, she seems a little more relaxed, and again I mean a "little."

I don't know if that means she's about to file D and opening lines of communication for that or she's just warming up a little. It's hard to tell.

Getting a non threatening "Hey you" from her as opposed to an awkward "hey" or silence, seems to my intuition a warming trend maybe. But that could just be wishful thinking.

Will keep you posted as the dreaded end of the month approaches.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/20/11 06:40 PM

You sound really anxious right now Pickle. It seemed as if you were in a better spot in the past couple of weeks. Are you ok?
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/20/11 06:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
You sound really anxious right now Pickle. It seemed as if you were in a better spot in the past couple of weeks. Are you ok?


I suppose you get a little anxious as percieved milestones approach.
I've been anticipating something the end of this month, for better or worse.

Or it could just be a down swing on the coaster.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/20/11 07:24 PM

Hang in there Pickle. It will either happen or it won't. If it does, you will deal with it. You will continue to DB. If it doesn't, you will continue to DB. Don't let what your W does or doesn't do control your emotional well being.
Posted By: habitacker

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/20/11 08:33 PM

For whatever reason she may be opening the lines of communication probably shouldn't matter, at least the lines are being opened, and that is kind of the goal isn't it?

I know you don't want it to be because of filing, none of us do. Try to worry about that if it happens. Worrying about things like this is what takes us back out of the positive moods we get in. I can tell you are coming out of yours.

I was also worried about the month following holiday's. Nothing has really changed with my W other than a little less tense when communicating, maybe a little more conversation,but not much. No papers yet. I spent the whole month tearing myself apart for nothing.

Why would you think that she would open lines of communication to file? I would think it would be the opposite. If my W started getting really cold and distant is when I would start worrying, but that is just me.

It is scary that I could think that my W could be any more cold and distant than she already is.

Hang in there.
Posted By: troysbikes23

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/20/11 09:03 PM

Sorry to hear about the distance, that is the most tortureous to have to go through. I am going through the same thing. But one thing I keep telling myself is to be the lion. Stay positive and what ever I do or even you should do is not talk about the relationship. I keep screwing up, over and over. But everytime I am the lion and the man she fell in love with it is happy at home. Some where along the line because of life, we lose our selves, we lose the one that got the girl. It stinks because some of us men are really good salesmen, we cannot convince a woman to feel it, she can't even convince herself.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/20/11 09:06 PM

Originally Posted By: habitacker
Why would you think that she would open lines of communication to file?


She wants me to cooperate: you know, use same lawyer, divide everything up amicably, nice and easy.

I'm not suspicious by nature, but this whole ordeal has made me very distrustful of her.

Although I did previously make it clear that I would not help her with a D.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 01:52 PM

W has an appt today @ 3:30 PM.
Didn't say what, but I think it's w/Lawyer.
Don't ask me why, just a feeling.

At the very beginning of the sitch, during a huge bargaining mistake, I screwed up by conceeding to raimain the kids' dad at home until D17 graduates HS. But now if we wind up D, I don't think I can live like that. Any suggestions as to how I can take that back?
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 02:07 PM

Well she didn't warn me.

I just discovered that her direct deposit paycheck did not get to our joint acct. That means she's changed it to go to her private acct.
Posted By: ScaredinCanada

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 02:19 PM

Is that going to effect how you pay mortgage/bills etc.? In my sitch our finances have always been seperate except for joint credit line and credit card. We have our own chequing and savings accounts. We have a set bills/expenses that we each pay, although those do overlap sometimes (ie. gas for the car or groceries), so far that hasn't changed.

I guess what I'm getting at is I'm wondering how big a deal it is if you now have seperate accounts? Is she just trying to restore her independance? I'm assuming if you did/do have shared expenses now your going to need to discuss how money will be transfered to cover said expenses.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By: ScaredinCanada
I guess what I'm getting at is I'm wondering how big a deal it is if you now have seperate accounts? Is she just trying to restore her independance?


All our bank and major credit accts have been joint accts in our 18 yrs of marriage.

Yes, she is trying to restore her independence (and get a jump on being divorced, it seems to me)

That's why this is causing me anxiety right now. And the fact that she has an appt. today. Usually if it's hair or nails she'll just say so. This time, just an appt.
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 03:48 PM

Pickle stop mind reading and getting wet before it rains.

None of this do you control so it is futile.

Easier said then done but try.

I wore a sport coat yesterday that I had not worn in a while and happened to check the pocket which contained a prayer card from my Grandmother's funeral over a year ago.

She was great lady and lived to be 93. That memory was for me. Finding the card and to recall how she lived her life with grace and dignity.

The prayer I think is for you so here it is:

Lord make me an instrument of thy peace
Where there is hatred, let me sow love
Where there is injury, let me sow pardon
Where there is doubt, faith
Where there is despair, hope
Where there is darkeness, light
Where there is sadness, Joy

Grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console
To be understood, as to understand
To be loved, as to love;
For it is in giving that we receive
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned


I edited for brevity.

It is not the natural thing for us to let go of hurt and injury and give way to compassion.

It is a challenge and most people don't choose it

But it is healthy.

If you were scared and confused Pickle how would you want to be loved?

Let her struggles go and give them to God. All in His time.

You can read this today and it may change your outlook but if you read those words every day and live them like they are your skin

You will change your life and those connected to you including your W.

Your goal may be to get your W back right now but there is greater achievement for you here than you are aware.

Keep your faith in yourself.
Posted By: ironMan

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 05:29 PM

Wow, TrueGrit ..... that really helped me. I felt fine, and reading that made me cry a bit ... strange how that happens these days.

That's a beautiful and wonderful prayer and says exactly what this whole process is about. Yes, our friends and relatives may think we're crazy to stick by our spouse when they are acting crazy and hurting us. But, we do it because it is the right thing ... for US ... it's not for THEM (the WAS, or the relatives) ... to show grace when showing anger would be easier.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 06:20 PM

Prayer of st. Francis.
I'll keep it in mind.
Just having a hard time today.
Posted By: angel61

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 07:02 PM

PIckle, I'm praying for you right now. I understand your anxiety. My H was like that .... at first I used to be so happy whenever he would start being friendly, until I noticed a pattern: the friendliness was followed in many cases by him doing something hurtful. Like when he wanted to go visit OW, he was so nice to me, even invited me out a few times for wine tasting and dinner.

At this point, I'd advice you to think of what you should or should not say if and when she talks to you. I have found that if I don't do that, I end up being reactive and screwing up and saying things I shouldn't have said.

I have seen you progressing a lot in the detachment area. The pursuing - I myself thought that I was not pursuing any more, only to find out that even my expression (maybe of longing, of expecting) was seen as pressure, which is equal to pursuing. It does seem to have a huge scope....
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/21/11 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Pickle
Prayer of st. Francis.


Ayep! Can't tell we're Catholic can ya?

It was Grandmother's favorite prayer hence it was on her mass card.

So simple and powerful.

Keep your chin up Pickle.

All things must pass.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/22/11 01:01 PM

I thought I was doing so well; then yesterday the depression came in waves after the morning when I discovered:

1. W was going to see her lawyer.
2. Her paycheck did not show up in our joint acct.
3. Oh, and my company's struggles are now the interest of the IRS (let's just say we're behind).

I am feeling better Saturday morning though. There's nothing I can do about any of this sh!t. Still need to do some more letting go. Read something interesting at an MLC site:

"Detaching only releases a bond, returning control. Often a person grabs the cut cord, becoming the controlling Puppet-Master. Though the result of Detaching and Letting-Go is the same, the counterpartsóAttachment and Holding-On are not. Letting-Go is a conscious release. To Detach, one must become conscious of being Attached; Holding-On is a choice. The Rodeo Cowboy Holds-On; the marionette is Attached. Even the grammar is passive. The difference is Choice."

from: http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/releasers_let-go.html
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/22/11 01:20 PM

Very interesting distinction made here.

And one to remember, that this is all YOUR choice.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/22/11 07:43 PM

Well I was right about the lawyer appt. wrong about the paycheck.

She told me D papers were coming this week.

She said her work is on a new payroll system and there's a glitch.

I will get my own atty as soon as I get them.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/22/11 08:05 PM

Hang in there Pickle.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/23/11 01:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Hang in there Pickle.


She told me some of the stuff in the D proposal.
No alimony for starters.
She still wants the roommates thing till D17 graduates.
I told I couldn't be her exH DH roommate.
I said I could only stick around till the house sells.
I told her since she initiates D and she's in the EA, she should move out.
She said I could buy her out (like I have the money for that)
I told I'll get my own atty when I get served.
She started bargaining: Kids need what she does etc.
I just listened.
She doesn't want to break up the kids home, just my M.
Should I be an MLC stander or just dump the house and split custody?
What I'd really like to do is......
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/23/11 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Pickle
Should I be an MLC stander or just dump the house and split custody?
What I'd really like to do is......


Whatever you do Pickle do for you.

No regrets.

Not out of emotion.

I am guessing what you would really like to do is split.

Normal reaction. Matter of fact statistics with divorces would bear out you would have a lot of company in that decision.

No one can tell what to do.

Don't let someone else make choices for you.

Choose for you.

Hang in there buddy.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/23/11 02:19 PM

I am deeply torn over putting S12 through this.

I am thinking about taking the full 20 days to respond, so she has time to think about breaking up the household and childrens' lives.

Then stipulate in a counter proposal either of the following.

1. Stay until house sells. Or.
2. Stay until D17 graduates (S12 will be in 8th grade). Or.
3. Stay until S12 is older than that.

All three would be subject to no dating and no seeing the OM. (no control over email and texting anyway)

The problem with no seperation is she would not get a chance to realize that I am not the source of her misery, and there'll be no "missing" me, not to assume she would anyway.

The problem with seperation is all to do with the children. They are innocent bystanders and I should do what is best for them. Also, so far DBing has not worked under the same roof.

Does that sound crazy anybody? Feedack?
Posted By: angel61

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/23/11 06:02 PM

No Pickle, its not crazy. I perfectly understand, because, like you, I feel that DB'ing is nto working while we are together. In Bradleys post (have you read that? I think is in MLC) he said that the WAS should experience the LBS detachment for it to work.

I myself have found that I am happier and more comfortable when my H is not around. He went out of town for two days this week and I felt so free, I thought I was finally totally detached, but now I am depressed again, seeing his morose face, experiencing his aloofness. I am fantasizing living by myself with D12 more and more. I cannot even think of reconciliation scenarios - it seems so remote, so impossible.

But seeing D12 and him together breaks my heart. She loves him so much, and he does love her too, a lot.

Even if we are married, it is a roomate condition. Same with you, Pickle. What difference does a pece of paper make? Maybe the financials at least can be ironed out.

Do you honestly think though that she will honor the "no OM" if you are roomates?







I
Posted By: Coach

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/23/11 07:29 PM

Quote:
All three would be subject to no dating and no seeing the OM. (no control over email and texting anyway)



So once she divorces you then you want to set a boundary?

Has what you have been doing working?

Do some research on what women find attractive. Be that man.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 01:20 AM

I feel exactly as Angel61.
I'm so much happier when W is not around.
But what about my son? What is best for him?

Like she said it's just a piece of paper.
We're Catholic, so in my view D doesn't mean anything more than civil and legal stuff. Unless she get's an annulment, we'll still be married in the eyes of God and the church.

As far as bounderies go, I had no levereage before, because of the depth of her MLC tunnel and concern for my kids. So I tried the waiting game, to DB, LRT etc. Now I'll have a little leverage. I know she doesn't want to lose the home, but I also have to be willing to sacrifice it in order to set the boundery. But again what is best for the kids? Should I leave it up to a judge and accumulate legal debts in a fight I could easily lose.

These are questions I'll bring up to my atty. I'd so love to be rid of her for a while, but the kids have to come first. Should I swallow my pride for a couple of years - no not if she dates. My prediction is that we'll remain under the same roof until it sells.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By: angel61

Do you honestly think though that she will honor the "no OM" if you are roomates?


What will it hurt to ask?

If she says no, we'll just sell the house, divide the property, settle custody and part company.

That's the worst case in my view.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 01:35 AM

Originally Posted By: angel61
In Bradleys post (have you read that? I think is in MLC) he said that the WAS should experience the LBS detachment for it to work.


I did not locate the post. Maybe you could link it.

WAS does not appear to give two Sh!ts about my detachment.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 01:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Coach

So once she divorces you then you want to set a boundary?

Has what you have been doing working?

Do some research on what women find attractive. Be that man.


Setting a boundery regarding OM backfired before. It made me look like an a$$ and she fled to the OM.
Once there is D, I can "expose" EA and she loses the lovely home she took pride in decorating.

I'm getting served, so nothing has been working so far as I can tell since reading DR.

Women do find me attractive. I only know of one woman who doesn't. I have no esteem issues.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 01:44 AM

Originally Posted By: InAPickle


WAS does not appear to give two Sh!ts about my detachment.



Your WAW is going to have to experience life without you to figure it out IMO Pickle. That can only happen if she is out of your house and on her own. Will that work? Who knows. But what you are doing now is not working.
Posted By: dbmod

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 01:45 AM

Bradley is


bradley11

bradley11
Posted By: Coach

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 12:34 PM

Quote:
Setting a boundery regarding OM backfired before. It made me look like an a$$ and she fled to the OM


Define boundary for me. Why does looking like an A$$ bother you? You have no esteem issues. Where is you W fleeing to now? Who is she running from with all her might? Why?

Quote:
Women do find me attractive. I only know of one woman who doesn't.


Do you think these women would find you atrractice after you talk to them about how your wife treats you and your response? There is a reason your wife isn't attracted to you. Look at your behavior, what have you been doing while she is having an affair right in front of you? Do you think she would act the same way?

You can lead or be the victim. You get to decide. Don't believe the concept that this has to take a long time to turn around. Time and patience are two different things. Your wife really wants you to stand up to and for her. A predator is attacking your family, think thru what your wife really needs from her man.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 12:43 PM

Well I couldn't hold in any longer.

After getting in bed last night I got back up and went to confront W.
It was bothering me that she spoke with kids privately to break the news to them. It bothered me that they were only getting her side of all this. She said she did tell them it was only her who wanted the D and did not want to be M anymore, but of course left out anything about OM.

I said next time she talks to them about the sitch, I want to present.

Then things escalated: "you can speak with them anytime etc."
I said, "Tell them everything." I want them to know the real reason household will be broken up, not just some innocent crap about her wanting out. So I insist I want them to know "everything". She said I just want to hurt them. I said no I want them to know the real reason their home is going to be sold from under them.

It will hurt them to a degree, and I do not want to be the messanger that they'll prefer to "shoot." But for my own sanity they must understand why I cannot tag along as a roommate in her world. It's really pissing me off that she's "getting away" with this wake of destruction.

Is that wrong of me? any suggestions?
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 01:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Pickle
WAS does not appear to give two Sh!ts about my detachment.


Detachment is for YOU not for your W.

She will FEEL it when it is complete.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 01:53 PM

"Detachment is for YOU not for your W."

Grit, I am growing more detached from W by the minute.

Coach, it's too late. I honestly DO NOT WANT what W has become, understand? I no longer want to attract her. If you read the entire threads Insight I thru IV (100'S of posts), you will see I DB'd for 3 months since bomb and tried hard to draw out the person I married, but she no longer exists. If it wasn't for my kids WAW would have been cutbside already.

[--edited by dbmod: advertising]
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 08:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Coach
Define boundary for me. Why does looking like an A$$ bother you? You have no esteem issues. Where is you W fleeing to now? Who is she running from with all her might? Why?

You can lead or be the victim. You get to decide. Don't believe the concept that this has to take a long time to turn around. Time and patience are two different things. Your wife really wants you to stand up to and for her. A predator is attacking your family, think thru what your wife really needs from her man.


In the beginning the hard line stand was just pushing her further and furthere away, just like pursuing pushes away. I made the mistake of thinking the EA would fizzle as I tried to be her friend and re-connect. But it did not work. LRT did not work either.

What she needs at this point in her MLC is to confront the consequences of her choices. She needs a crisis that will call into question her fantasy. The only thing that scares the hell out of her is exposure of her infidility to kids. That's all I can think of for now.

Last night I looked at her and said, "I don't know you. Who are you? Who the hell are you? You're not the person I married.

You know what she said with sneer? "That's for sure!
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 08:36 PM

Originally Posted By: InAPickle
Originally Posted By: angel61

Do you honestly think though that she will honor the "no OM" if you are roomates?


What will it hurt to ask?

If she says no, we'll just sell the house, divide the property, settle custody and part company.

That's the worst case in my view.


She will also have to respond to my counter proposal in writing. If she says she must continue to pursue the relationsip with OM, I'll have it writing to explain why Daddy cannot live with Mommy while she gives to another man what is strictly reserved for her husband.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/24/11 11:22 PM

Quote:
It's really pissing me off that she's "getting away" with this wake of destruction.


She's not getting away with anything.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 12:23 AM

[quote=sandi2] She's not getting away with anything.
[/iquote]

I'm gonna make sure about that.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 03:58 AM

Originally Posted By: InAPickle
I made the mistake of thinking the EA would fizzle as I tried to be her friend and re-connect. But it did not work. LRT did not work either.


Have you given it enough time Pickle? Remember, Time and Patience my friend.

Originally Posted By: InAPickle
What she needs at this point in her MLC is to confront the consequences of her choices. She needs a crisis that will call into question her fantasy.


Maybe. Probably. But you do not need to sink to her level in accomplishing this. Nor do you need to give up on your M and family. How much do you want it? I know that it is easier said than done, but don't let your anger guide you.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 02:09 PM

Journal update.

Back in the fall during one of our little "talks" about her divorced roommates idea.

W says, 'It's not like I'll be going to Ohio all the time to see OM"

I just checked on line and she's planning a trip in February.
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 02:37 PM

Pickle

What you are feeling is natural.

Anger is natural.

You tried these tactics/techniques and you are not seeing results.

Disapointing at first and now angry for what she is continuing to choose and how it makes you feel.

Completely understand that. Investing in timelines is likewise as futile.

No one knows whether this is a long term thing or a short term thing.

No one can tell you that you know why?

Because the only one that controls whether your W wakes up is her.

I happen to believe there is not much you can do to speed up her process through this but you can damnn sure make it longer or f@ck it up entirely by your own actions.

You only control you and your choices.

You can choose to react to this with anger or let your emotion subside.

Choose what is best for you and your family.

Use your anger as a shield not a sword.

WTF does that mean?

If you let your anger dictate you here you will be defined by it and it will rule your life.

Hurt people HURT people. If you wish to be one of those people then wield away your sword.

Shield? As I have said many times in my posts your pain will guide you through this.

What is your anger telling you right now?
Posted By: Coach

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 02:54 PM

There is plenty you can do to influence your wife. It's not angry, immoral, being an A$$ or wrong. A predator is attacking your wife and family. Do you like sharing your wife with another man? Is what you are doing lining up with your core values? There is a reason you are angry. Make sure your actions line up with your values, decide on a healthy & productive plan and then act. (BTW anger is a good sign from your wife, it means she is still interested in you.)

Look around here on DB, do you seen any man with his wife in a affair getting anywhere? To quote my Greek FIL, "There is a hole in the soup."

Sure hope those books you ordered showed up.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 03:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Truegritter
What is your anger telling you right now?


My anger is telling me to stick it to her, 'cause being mister nice guy has yielded no results. She's gone ahead with her D plans and full steam ahead with EA. But my anger is not going to control my actions.

In Dobson's book, "Love Must Be Tough" he says that in some cases the only thing left to do is to create a crisis. That's what I intend to do, nothing terrible, just give her the realization that her dream fantasy of househusband taking care of the yard and the kids, while she carries on with OM is not going to happen.

And when D17 asks why: "Daughter, you know that civil divorce is just a piece of paper and that in our faith (unless mommy gets an annulment) I will always be her husband in the eyes of God. I am risking you hating me for telling you this, but you must know that I have sound reason for not wanting to live with mommy. For the past six months she has been giving to another man what is strictly reserved for her husband, and she continues to this day and has no intention to stop. So I cannot be with someone who shows such disrespect for me and contempt for her wedding promises. I'm very, very sorry."
Posted By: Truegritter

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 05:30 PM

Pickle

I understand your feelings and what your anger is telling you.

I also understand tough love tactics as I employed them in my sitch.

You must decide for yourself.

Then decide from the results of those decisions.

One piece of advice re: the kids.

Keep them out of it. They should not IMO be part of your exposure tactics.

Your job is not to repair any relationship between your W and the kids.

Your job is not to damage it.

Originally Posted By: Coach
Look around here on DB, do you seen any man with his wife in a affair getting anywhere?


This is absolutely true. Your M and any chance at reconciliation will not begin until her A ends.

Eventually you have to come to a place of love and compassion with what has happened to you...

Whether your W comes back or not.

That being the healthy goal. For you and your family.

Weigh it against what you decide to do now.
Posted By: TimeHeals

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 06:00 PM

Quote:
Your job is not to repair any relationship between your W and the kids.

Your job is not to damage it.


True. A parent's job is to protect their children, set a good example, and help raise them to be good, responsible citizens.

Do you think lying to them helps them feel 'safe'?

Where do you draw the line? When does witholding information begin to do more harm than good? When does it set a bad example?

These are all valid questions, and context is important.

This isn't some black-and-white thing. Making these judgements requires practical wisdom.

[added by dbmod: exposure, including to children is not recommended.]
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 07:01 PM

Of course, I will consult with the atty before doing anything.

You're right, however tempting it is, it would be a mistake for me to expose EA to kids (but boy does W squirm when I threaten to). Think I'll threaten again whenever she tries to push my buttons just for the satisfaction of making her squirm.

Like I said before, the woman I am married to is not the woman I married. I will not miss the present version at all.

I believe we have to part ways for there to be any chance that she will come to any realization. Besides, it will do me wonders to get away from this version.

Yes - the children will suffer and will have to make major lifestyle sacrifices, but I will not lose sleep over that. W has painted me into corner, and these are the consequences of her choices.
Posted By: angel61

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 10:04 PM

Pickle, my H and your W seem to be twins in how they see this whole OP thing. Cake eaters to the max. Sunday afternoon my H and I had one of our talks. I promised myself that next time he brings up R talk, I will keep quiet, but did notÖ..This is how it went (summarized):

H: I feel so stuck. I made a mistake. I am in a gray zone. You canít accept our situation. Why canít we have a legal S but still live together. For our Dís sake, so she still has 2 parents. Need the piece of legality to know you have accepted the end of our M.

Pickle, sounds familiar, eh?

Me: What for? So that you can pursue OW without guilt? I donít need a piece of paper. I accept you donít love me. I donít accept that your never did, nor that there is no hope for us. ButÖno way will I live together with you while weíre S and you are pursuing OW. That will be too painful for me. If thatís the case, lets just D completely and live our separate lives, and I could move on. Another thing: How abnormal could the situation get? Us being together with you pursuing OW Ė what will that teach our D? How will she feel about that? That it is acceptable to have that kind of situation? She will learn to be cynical before her time.

He also kept on saying that it was all his mistake, that at first he blamed me for everything but at the end of the day, realized he was just justifying his actions by saying itís my fault, and that ultimately he had to face his own mistakes (wow, that sure seems like a moment of lucidity!). I asked him then about how mature adults are supposed to handle their mistakes. Arenít we supposed to try to correct them? Arenít we supposed to suffer the consequences of our own mistakes? (In other words, donít make other people suffer from your mistakes!)

Pickle, just sharing this with you because these were my reactions to a very similar situation. Maybe the wrong thing to say or do, I dunno, but I think it made my H see a few things my way. He did not commit to anything during our convo, but since yesterday, I have noticed a change in him. He has suddenly become friendlier to me, called me up a couple of times these past 2 days, did not pursue the S topic.

One thing I would say to you though: Control your anger. And be careful on how you talk to your kids about this. I do not believe in lying to them, but neither do I think they should be exposed to the whole sordid details.

My D has known from before, and she is only 12 years old. I struggle in my interactions with her to make sure that she does not think bad of her Dad and at the same time letting her know that this is not an acceptable situation. I speak to my therapist on the best way for me to deal with her and she agrees that being honest with her is good if she seems able to understand. And she seems to, but what do I know? I can only pray that she is not being damaged too much by all this. She has asked me not to leave her Dad, and that she believes all of this will pass, even the pain, and that Dad is allowed to make mistakes as he is only human! I told her that I will try but may only have tolerance for up to a certain period or wrongdoings.

The way you are thinking of explaining to D17 is too inflammatory. If I were you, when you are ready to be honest with her, I would say tell her something to the effect that her Mom has changed and wants to leave the M because she has fallen out of love with you, she is interested in another person, and that you still want to keep the M and will keep on trying.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/25/11 10:44 PM

Angel61, I know you are right.

Sometimes when I am posting, I'm just venting or ranting.
The talk with D17 I posted earlier was role playing, a fantasy of how I am feeling and how I feel about keeping the dirty secret.

But you know something. I've got a feeling the kids already have an idea of what's going on just from hints and comments I have let slip out and been unable to stifle.

When W went away to visit OM the weekend of 12/18, D17 was also out of town with a friend, so it was just me and S12. I asked him, "Where did mommy say she was going this weekend?" I was curious what she told the kids. S12 said she said she went to visit old friends from her time in the military. I responded, "Oh, is that what she told you?" There's a implication in that response I couldn't control. It was a half truth, W and exH did serve together.

The other morning after the fight I had with W, D17 came to the kitchen for breakfast. It was just me and her at the moment. She had overheard some of the previous night's squabble. Still hurting and angry, I couldn't control myself again; I said to her, "I'm sorry about last night, but your mother's done me wrong, real wrong." Now she could construe that one way, because W had already she wants to D me, or she could wonder if that's the only thing making pops so angry.

So I won't tell them the dirty secret.

But darn! I'v been hurting and angry so long I so enjoy watching W squirm!
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 04:08 AM

Nothing but silent treatment tonight.
Squirm baby squirm!

So I picked up my guitar and downloaded the chords of ELO's "Evil Woman" and practiced it much of the dinner hour.

You know they notice everything.

"Such an evil woman....You're an evil woman"

I'm about to get served; why not have some fun with it?
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 04:30 AM

OMG - I think I'm finally detaching!
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 02:00 PM

Originally Posted By: Coach
There is plenty you can do to influence your wife. It's not angry, immoral, being an A$$ or wrong. A predator is attacking your wife and family. Do you like sharing your wife with another man? Is what you are doing lining up with your core values? There is a reason you are angry. Make sure your actions line up with your values, decide on a healthy & productive plan and then act. (BTW anger is a good sign from your wife, it means she is still interested in you.)
Look around here on DB, do you seen any man with his wife in a affair getting anywhere? To quote my Greek FIL, "There is a hole in the soup."

Sure hope those books you ordered showed up.


Unfortuanately, W seems to have no problem with the predator.
Yes I love sharing my W with an OM - PUHLEASE, Do you have to even ask?

My core values have changed with the D. When I thought there was still a chance I was willing to "wait" and DB to see if that would work and endure the EA becuse he's 500 miles away.

My core values have always been for the sake of the kids and the home, to give DBing a chance. All for the kids, setting aside my pride and anger.

But with the D looming, everyting's changed. My only hope now is to shake the foundations of her fantasy world if that's even possible, all the while doing what is best for the kids - within the bounderies on NOT SHARING W WITH PREDATOR.
Posted By: Coach

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 02:58 PM

Quote:
Unfortuanately, W seems to have no problem with the predator.


I bet she has a problem with how you have been behaving towards a threat to her and your family. She wants a man that will protect her and her family, this is hardwired in humans.

Quote:
My core values have changed with the D.
WTF does that mean?

Quote:
My core values have always been for the sake of the kids and the home, to give DBing a chance.


DB is a tool. Make sure you use the right tool for the job, it makes all the difference.

Quote:
Yes I love sharing my W with an OM - PUHLEASE, Do you have to even ask?


I ask because your actions show me that you are OK with it. Your wife thinks the same thing. Do you think what you have been doing is bringing more love into the relationship or pushing her away? If you think it is bringing more love please explain why? Why would being passive push her away?
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 04:42 PM

I think you're a few threads behind coach.
I followed my DB coach's advice.

W is hell bent on D and hell bent on OM.
AND !!!! You don't know her.

I may appear passive; but I have only been trying to prepare.
The D will sort everything out.

Only after she's on her own can there be any progress in either direction.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 05:45 PM

Originally Posted By: InAPickle
Only after she's on her own can there be any progress in either direction.


I have kept up with your thread Pickle. I agree with your statement that I have quoted above.

BUT... you do not need to do this in a non-DB way. You seem very angry right now. VERY understandable. But not usually helpful.

Don't sink to the level where your W is right now. Don't let anger guide you and your actions man.

BITS
Denver
Posted By: Coach

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 07:12 PM

No, I have read all of your threads.

Do it your way.

Cheers
Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 07:14 PM

Coach is trying to help Pickle, and what he is suggesting worked well for him.

He is right about the proper tools, got to know what the job is to know what tools to bring to bear on it.

You think your wife is in an MLC, check out the resource threads at the top of the MLC forum, if pieces fit, post there, the stance is more in line with what your are thinking. But don't make the situation fit because you want it too.

Learning to play ELO's Evil Woman is a bit...passive aggresive.
Posted By: angel61

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 09:29 PM

Don't think you have botched your situation. Even after D DB'ing might still work.
I always think that there is a reason for all that happens, that God won't give us what we can handle. Although I find myself praying and thinking that maybe He is miscalculating my strength.....
At least she is the evil one, not you.
(((( Hugs)))))
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 09:38 PM

Look I am open to advice, but all I am getting are questions.

Coach: "I ask because your actions show me that you are OK with it."

Me: Please be specific??

Coach: "Your wife thinks the same thing. Do you think what you have been doing is bringing more love into the relationship or pushing her away?"

Me: What specifically??

Coach: "If you think it is bringing more love please explain why? Why would being passive push her away?"

Me: Nothing so far has been bringing more love. Being passive is pushing her away by signaling toleration of the EA.

JTB: "Coach is trying to help Pickle, and what he is suggesting worked well for him."

Me: What specifically is he suggesting? I am open to suggestions.

JTB: "He is right about the proper tools, got to know what the job is to know what tools to bring to bear on it."

Me: I am being served at 9:00 AM tomorrow. The only job left is to make present the cold reality and in the process destroy the fantasy.

Remember what I posted earlier: texting and phone calls every spare minute of every day, another planned rendevous in February.

If anyone has a better suggestion, please quit asking questions and be specific.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans
Learning to play ELO's Evil Woman is a bit...passive aggresive.



I enjoyed it, it was a tribute to the present version of W.
The adorable person I married is gone.
Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 10:10 PM

While I agree with Coach on alot of things, we disagree on a few and I would not presume to speak for him.

From my point of view, if your wife is in an mLC the only thing that is going to wake her up, is herself. When she does, she'll look at how you handled everything.

If she is not, how are you going to show her what reality looks like?
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 11:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Jack_Three_Beans

If she is not, how are you going to show her what reality looks like?


This is what I am talking about - another question.

First let me explain what her fantasy looks like.

Bear in mind that she hates her mother for doing exactly what she's doing, except back then her dad was deployed and her mother told him "don't come home." W and little brother were about the same age as my kids. W is scarred and conflicted.

Her fantasy is: we live as brother and sister until kids are old "enough" to handle seperation. Meanwhile she continues to pursue R with OM. She keeps her home and swimming pool and kids and househusband/handyman and goes on jaunts to Ohio every couple of months to see OM.

Reality is: I will not live with her while she pursues a romance with OM - period.

And I will claim half of everything - as much as the laws of the state of Florida allow.

She's painted me into a corner Jack.

PS> It irks me that without exposure the kids will never fully understand why Pops (fill in the blank).
Posted By: MrBond

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 11:33 PM

First of all, calm down. Everyone is trying to help you. There's no set rule of what you should or shouldn't do. That's up to you.

If you want to expose, go ahead. Have you thought of who you would expose to? If this is the route you intend to take, make sure you're protecting yourself because you don't know what kind of reaction she's going to have.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 11:50 PM

I'm not planning on doing anything until I see the papers and consult with atty. I don't want to screw up the "reality" check.
Posted By: MrBond

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/26/11 11:55 PM

The paperwork for the D and the OM are two different things. Do you have proof of an OM?
Posted By: dbmod

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/27/11 12:03 AM

Your best advice comes from your DB Coach. First--s/he knows what questions to ask you, better than any of us on the board. Everyone also presents their story slightly differenlty.

Second--your DB Coach is an expert. 'Coach', and none of the other folks on the board are experts. Everyone has an opinion, but it doesn't make it right. Even when someone mentions they've tried something and it worked, their marriage may have been saved due to lots of things they did, not the thing they attributed it to. Again, your DB coach is the person best equipped to help you.
Posted By: Denver_2010

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/27/11 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Originally Posted By: InAPickle
Only after she's on her own can there be any progress in either direction.


I have kept up with your thread Pickle. I agree with your statement that I have quoted above.

BUT... you do not need to do this in a non-DB way. You seem very angry right now. VERY understandable. But not usually helpful.

Don't sink to the level where your W is right now. Don't let anger guide you and your actions man.

BITS
Denver


I'd also add that, IMO, you haven't given this enough time. I think that you do need space from W and need to get DARK. Remember, TIME AND PATIENCE.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/27/11 04:13 AM

Originally Posted By: MrBond
The paperwork for the D and the OM are two different things. Do you have proof of an OM?


Plenty of proof.

Three months of phone records - calls and texting every spare minute - hundreds.

Travel itinerary from Dec.
Travel notice from Orbitz for Feb.

OM facebook page.
Posted By: InAPickle

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/27/11 04:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Originally Posted By: Denver_2010
Originally Posted By: InAPickle
Only after she's on her own can there be any progress in either direction.


I have kept up with your thread Pickle. I agree with your statement that I have quoted above.

BUT... you do not need to do this in a non-DB way. You seem very angry right now. VERY understandable. But not usually helpful.

Don't sink to the level where your W is right now. Don't let anger guide you and your actions man.

BITS
Denver


I'd also add that, IMO, you haven't given this enough time. I think that you do need space from W and need to get DARK. Remember, TIME AND PATIENCE.


The only way to go dark is if we part ways.
D negotiations or at least threat of destroying the fantacy is actually going to be the best way to make her face the consequences.

Before D, I could not legally kick her out and I could not leave without risking her lawyer accusing me of abandonment.

But now I have leverage.

She had a fantasy in her head and as Gritter said, money would rain down from the sky. But now I have to play my hand.

Keep your fingers crossed, because I have detached.
Posted By: TimeHeals

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/27/11 12:17 PM

I think you get into trouble when you drag in the MLC as a key caveat that obscures all the particulars. It's the particulars that matter: stressors, ego-integrity, and so on.

I can't, for example, point to a wealth of recent logitudinal studies that support the actual existence of what you are calling a midlife crisis.

I can, on the other hand, point to studies like Susan Krauss Whitbourne's and many others that directly contradict popular assumptions (popular among the general public, but not so much with research Psychologists) supporting the midlife crisis as common feathre of adult development. In fact, pshychologists commonly regard that diagnosis and model as 'not helpful'.
Posted By: dbmod

Re: Need Insight IV - 01/27/11 01:40 PM

link to new thread
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