Friendship option and other Hot topics

Here's a place to debate a topic and keep it off a poster's thread. (Taking this cue from williaij)

from Sad-but-happy on sinclair's thread

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With all due respect dbmod, Sinclair is not in LRT because a firm boundary has not been enforced.

Boundaries have nothing to do with the LRT. Boundary setting is actually the AFTER the LRT.

We ALL want our marriages to work. But it is absolutely crazy to think that one should continue acting "as if" when your spouse is having relations with another.

Not true. You always act as if. It's just whether or not you are choosing your act as if behavior or if it's choosing you. Are you assuming the worst and therefore creating the worst or are you assuming the best and therefore creating the best?

Maybe I'm to much of a traditionalist but my W can't see me and OM.

She can however CHOOSE to stop seeing OM and work on our marriage.

If that's too much to ask of W then so be it...

That is absolutely fine--because that's YOUR MARRIAGE. You have no clue whether someone else is willing to wait, to see their spouse, to date them, to live with them, whatever. IN THEIR OWN MARRIAGE.

There are two things at play here: what someone is/isn't willing to do and what will or not bring more love in their marriage.

Our goal here is to brainstorm the second part only, not give him should or should nots for what he can take or should not take.

Where is the line between dating and friendship anyway? Would dating include sex? If it were a good date, I imagine it would. On the other hand, friends don't let friends....

When my wife wanted to move from friendship to dating I felt obligated to discuss my boundaries. When she realized that she would have to give up OM to date me, she had to rethink the dating idea. She said she didn't really understand the distinction between the two and that what she wanted was just more friendship. That caught me off guard because I'm not sure that I know where the line is drawn. I just gave her the look (i.e.,don't play coy with me, everyone knows the difference, look).

from Michele:

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Many times people wonder whether or not to have sex with their estranged spouses. Here's my response:

As I always say in my seminars, there are no single, one-size-fits-all solutions to any situation, this situation included. However, I do have some thoughts about the issue of having sex with your spouse when separated either physically or emotionally and/or if there is another person in the picture.

For starters, if you do decide to be physical, it's essential to use caution and be smart about protecting yourself from sexually transmitted diseases.

Having said that, let's explore the emotional side of things. If your spouse is interested in being sexual but shows ambivalence about or even disinterest in your marriage, it makes sense that you might feel uncertain about being close physically. You might worry about feeling used or cheapened in some way. IF this is an overriding feeling, don't do it. However, I look at it another way.

Sexuality is a special way that people connect with each other. Although some people have sex simply to experience a pleasant physical sensation, that is rarely all that happens. Having sex leads to having emotions. If someone is doubting his or her commitment to a marriage, experiencing feelings of connection during lovemaking is a good thing and it might increase the chances that the confused spouse will feel inclined to work on the marriage. Obviously, it doesn't always work this way and as with everything else, the proof is in the pudding. But if you're willing/wanting to be intimate, it makes sense to me to do so and then watch the results. See how your spouse reacts and how you feel about it after the fact.

I know many couples whose physical relationship saved the day. Even when they couldn't talk, constantly fought, their lovemaking was the lifeline between them. Eventually, because their physical connection reminded them that beneath their problems, there was still a lot of love, they were able to work things out. I say, "stack the deck in your favor, if you can."

But not everyone feels comfortable with this solution, and that's okay. You have to feel in your heart that you are doing the right thing. If it feels wrong to you, don't do it. If it feels okay, comfortable or even exciting, give yourself permission to enjoy it.

One word of caution. If you've been intimate with your commitment-phobic spouse for a long time and nothing improves, it's time to rethink your actions. Your relationship may have become too comfortable. Perhaps s/he is taking things for granted. Time to consider a change.

Michele

I love the boundary description by KentS. I see some folks here really know how to set a boundary without a brick wall. Too much of the advice though, sounds like a brick wall, and also, that it is all they are really going to do, set a boundary and get their own life and if the spouse wants to join the plan, that's fine.

I love this:

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Reconcilliation is not possible if your S is embroiled in an affair. All you can do is establish boundaries and a stable/calm home environment that will eventually look attractive to the wayward spouse when their life begins to crash around them. This requires that you complete the previously mentioned changes. It's important to know the difference between boundaries and brick walls. A boundary is a restriction that is still based on a minimal degree of trust and respect. A brick wall is a restriction that is stipulated as a uncontrolled reaction to the wayward spouse's bad behavior and typically pushes them further away. Brick walls will not bring your spouse home. In fact brick walls will make the OW or OM or just being alone appear to be the more attractive alternative.

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Not true. You always act as if.

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There are two things at play here: what someone is/isn't willing to do and what will or not bring more love in their marriage.

boundaries bring more love into relationships, they create security between both parties in the relationship.

someone is abusing you and you are supposed to act as if? someone is violating your morals, values and beliefs and you act as if? Always???????

there is a reason you can't sleep, eat, think or have hope- because you are going against your core principles. Another man is sleeping with your wife/husband and you act as if? I wouldn't let a friend treat men the way a WS in an affair is (taking money, time , love, energy, from my family, hurting my kids, and disrespecting me) - would you dbmod?

"LOVE your neighbor as yourself." i LOVE YOU but I can't tolerate behavior that damages out relationship. A marriage comes with rules - love, honor and cherish. There is nothing better than to tell a WAS in affair that your behavior does not love, honor or cherish - me, our marriage or yourself.

It's not "manning up", or going against any DB principle to take care of yourself and state what is acceptable behavior in your marriage. God stated boundaries, good parents have boundaries, and healthy marriages have boundaries.

It's malpractice to tell someone to always act as if. As your friend I would not give anyone that advice, I would say if it is bothering you then it is your responsibility to bring it up. In a mature , calm, direct, effective way and what the consequences are if the behavior continues. Now you have a choice instead of just acting as if. Acting as if can make you a victim. Neither attractive or healthy for you.

Real friends respect each other.

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Reconcilliation is not possible if your S is embroiled in an affair.

This has been discussed by the vets and agreed upon yet it goes against what the DB mods will tolerate. It's a no-brainer and yet DB doesn't address it. Seems even you agree now. What gives?

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boundaries bring more love into relationships, they create security between both parties in the relationship.

They can. They can also cause be the brick wall that causes division. It's all in how they are worked.

Then explain how to set a boundary with a spouse who is sleeping someone else spending their time, energy, love, affection, spending family money and resources, the kids know something is wrong and you can't think?

I know where my boundaries are and they aren't brick walls? Is "brick walls" a DB term, I'm unfamiliar with it?

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It's malpractice to tell someone to always act as if. As your friend I would not give anyone that advice, I would say if it is bothering you then it is your responsibility to bring it up. In a mature , calm, direct, effective way and what the consequences are if the behavior continues. Now you have a choice instead of just acting as if. Acting as if can make you a victim. Neither attractive or healthy for you.

It's nice that you count me as your friend.

I believe you've misunderstood. Everyone is always acting as if. That means that at any given time you are acting under a set of assumptions. Our assumptions are just that--assumptions. You choose your assumptions whether you think you do or not. Granted, they are informed by something, but the assumption is about the future. And the information from which an assumption is formed is limited, not all-encompassing.

Acting as if CAN make you a victim, and that would be the as if attitude.

The AS IF attitude in divorcebusting is about the attitudes that are self-fulfilling prophesies. But you know that.

Originally Posted By: dbmod

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It's malpractice to tell someone to always act as if. As your friend I would not give anyone that advice, I would say if it is bothering you then it is your responsibility to bring it up. In a mature , calm, direct, effective way and what the consequences are if the behavior continues. Now you have a choice instead of just acting as if. Acting as if can make you a victim. Neither attractive or healthy for you.

babble
It's nice that you count me as your friend.

I believe you've misunderstood. Everyone is always acting as if. That means that at any given time you are acting under a set of assumptions. Our assumptions are just that--assumptions. You choose your assumptions whether you think you do or not. Granted, they are informed by something, but the assumption is about the future. And the information from which an assumption is formed is limited, not all-encompassing.

Acting as if CAN make you a victim, and that would be the as if attitude.

The AS IF attitude in divorcebusting is about the attitudes that are self-fulfilling prophesies. But you know that.

Originally Posted By: Coach

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Reconcilliation is not possible if your S is embroiled in an affair.

This has been discussed by the vets and agreed upon yet it goes against what the DB mods will tolerate. It's a no-brainer and yet DB doesn't address it. Seems even you agree now. What gives?

That is KentS quote and his opinion.

I agree on a personal level that it isn't a desired state. People do it though. And it doesn't necessarily cause the downfall of the marriage.

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This has been discussed by the vets and agreed upon yet it goes against what the DB mods will tolerate.

I'm sure you mean a certain group of folks and yet it doesn't represent the whole of the community over time. Certain folks here have advocated it, added pressure to it, and created a climate around this advice. And even the way you stated it demonstrates that.

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'The vets have agreed to it'

In the spirit of friendship, I'd like yo uto really visit personally how that sounds.

None of 'the vets' are professional therapists with a long-time practice, none of you have been trained by Michele. And besides a long-term marriage, that's the expert requirement for expert here.

This core group of folks is not the gold standard.

I am impressed by a lot of your personal advice.

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Everyone is always acting as if.

Not me.

Originally Posted By: Coach

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Everyone is always acting as if.

Not me.

You are assuming a lot in this dialog with me right now.

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In the spirit of friendship, I'd like yo uto really visit personally how that sounds.

None of 'the vets' are professional therapists with a long-time practice, none of you have been trained by Michele. And besides a long-term marriage, that's the expert requirement for expert here.

Then people need to go read what the other professionals who are experts in the profession say about it. That would be wise. It's not's my opinion that I advocate.

And what we advocate here is what Michele herself has researched.

Originally Posted By: dbmod

And what we advocate here is what Michele herself has researched.

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In the spirit of friendship, I'd like yo uto really visit personally how that sounds.

Absolutely. WE advocate here what Michele has researched because she has given her life blood to it, over 30 years of extensive research and practice, it has proven to be true, and we witness it ourselves.

It's what her material and site is all about, which of course you know because you signed up for it.

More than that, her passion and commitment to marriage itself leads her to modify any materials as noted over the years--as you can see with the revision from DB to DR.

And now:

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'The vets have agreed to it'

In the spirit of friendship, I'd like you to really visit personally how that sounds.

You can do it here or not, but I think you're a man of integrity and think you can address that internally and modify accordingly.

And she has ALL the answers?

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it has proven to be true,

I have witnessed here, on other sites and IRL people doing things counter to DB that were more effective than DB principles.

Why did the DB book get re-written as DR? The truth was more true?

So only MWD can change her mind? And people should just blindly follow along?

Maybe you haven't read both books. You can compare the differences, they mostly have to do with timing. In DR, she addresses the concerns of depression, MLC and Infidelity.

Coach--
This site is for those who want to use Michele's materials effectively to bring more love into theirmarriages. It's free solution detecting of the steps that are in those materials. It's to help folks use their coaching more effectively, or for those who can't afford coaching. It has been Michele's gift. You know that. It isn't a hidden, secret fact.

There's nothing blind about it. Everyone is free to go the places that espouse their views. This is the site for DB.

In all my time here, timing hasn't been discussed. I am sure the site would love to here when to do what - when.

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This is the site for DB.

And DB advocates doing what works.

I brought more love into my marriage using techniques that weren't all DB tenets. Guess they aren't true(unless doing what works is db). I got that advice from posters here.

I'm really happy you have a good marriage, not matter what it took for you to do so. A lot of the advice by that same group has been detrimental to marriages, and there have been a lot of complaints. We promote what we know to have had the best success. Everyone should go where the materials and advice works for them.

The timing in DR is a modification that Michele made to mention that it can just take some folks much longer than a month to fully reconcile when there are extensive factors involved (eg, long-term infidelity, MLC, depression, etc.). Then she expounded on those extensive factors. You might like the book.

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A lot of the advice by that same group has been detrimental to marriages

That advice had numerous dbmods (2008) ??????

sgtxok was the big one on newcomers back then.

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Everyone should go where the materials and advice works for them.

I agree.

The mods do not advocate the same advice as the "vets".

The advice that's given is not fully moderated. It doesn't make it good advice.

Have a good night.

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Have a good night.

Cheers dbmod!

I love what this site did for me and my marriage.

People do what works.

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Then explain how to set a boundary with a spouse who is sleeping someone else spending their time, energy, love, affection, spending family money and resources, the kids know something is wrong and you can't think?

I would love someone to address this from the "official" DB world. It's very common here. It's an issue for men and women.

How do you keep your self-respect and add love to your marriage?

There are lots of things that would be nice if they got addressed on these boards Coach. That is just one of many that would be nice to see an answer to.

Coach-

Good morning! I only have a minute, but:

Working through it when you want to save your marriage is on pages 214-216 in DR:

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"If you are considering trying to save your marriage when your partner is unwilling to end the affair you can count on receiving lots of advice from people who know about the situation. The will undoubtedly tell you to stop being a doormat and go on with your life. You need to be the one who calls the shots on this one. This is, after all your life. You need to decide how you want to handle it. Trust your instincts. Don't let anyone else tell you what to do. If you're not ready to give up on your marriage, keep fighting."

There is the backoff--stop pursuit of the LRT that may be helfpul. This doesn't mean going completely dark, the level varies with each .

"You need to find out what need your spouse is fulfilling by spending time with this person so that you can do a better job fulfilling that need yourself. You need to make some changes. Don't tell your spouse tha tyou are going to change or that things will be different, just start acting differently."

And then of course, take care of yourself, do the things that
make you happy, because that is more attractive, and you deserve to be happy.

Coach, no one said it was easy. And you already knew the answer. Individual recommendations go on individual threads.

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"If you are considering trying to save your marriage when your partner is unwilling to end the affair you can count on receiving lots of advice from people who know about the situation. The will undoubtedly tell you to stop being a doormat and go on with your life. You need to be the one who calls the shots on this one. This is, after all your life. You need to decide how you want to handle it. Trust your instincts. Don't let anyone else tell you what to do. If you're not ready to give up on your marriage, keep fighting."

Be decisive and do what your instinct knows is right and you will have your marriage back. Why let your WAS who is having an affair with a predator call all the shots?

That knot in your stomach is you acting in ways that go against your core being. My instinct as a man tells me to fix problems and protect my family. Fight for your marriage, fight is a verb an action word. If your goal is to save your marriage first define what marriage means to you. Then think thru a plan that will help you achieve that goal, take action, make adjustments as needed and keep working.

So what is your instinct telling you to do? Why? How can you do what your instinct is telling you to do and save your marriage? Pray for discernment and wisdom.

Strength and Honor
Coach

So then dbmod, please answer this straight forward question.

Should a WAS be allowed to continue an EA without consequence?

And if so please let me know what would make the WAS go back and work on the marriage? What would be their motivation?

Certainly not guilt. Do we just HOPE that the OM/OW is a loser and HOPE that our WAS MIGHT someday see that?

I'm just not willing to WAIT for my W to get sick of having sex with OM and then be grateful that they returned.

IM better then that and deserve more.

Staying married is the goal. But in some cases that is not possible.

In fact dare I say that a WAS that continues an A is a serial adulterer. And isn't that a reason to consider ending a marriage?

Originally Posted By: Sad_but_happy

So then dbmod, please answer this straight forward question.

Should a WAS be allowed to continue an EA without consequence?

And if so please let me know what would make the WAS go back and work on the marriage? What would be their motivation?

Certainly not guilt. Do we just HOPE that the OM/OW is a loser and HOPE that our WAS MIGHT someday see that?

I'm just not willing to WAIT for my W to get sick of having sex with OM and then be grateful that they returned.

IM better then that and deserve more.

Staying married is the goal. But in some cases that is not possible.

In fact dare I say that a WAS that continues an A is a serial adulterer. And isn't that a reason to consider ending a marriage?

You are asking a moral question and not a DB question. If you aren't willing to continue, you aren't willing to continue. End of debate.

YOU decide when you've had enough.

Originally Posted By: Coach

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"If you are considering trying to save your marriage when your partner is unwilling to end the affair you can count on receiving lots of advice from people who know about the situation. The will undoubtedly tell you to stop being a doormat and go on with your life. You need to be the one who calls the shots on this one. This is, after all your life. You need to decide how you want to handle it. Trust your instincts. Don't let anyone else tell you what to do. If you're not ready to give up on your marriage, keep fighting."

Be decisive and do what your instinct knows is right and you will have your marriage back. Why let your WAS who is having an affair with a predator call all the shots?

That knot in your stomach is you acting in ways that go against your core being. My instinct as a man tells me to fix problems and protect my family. Fight for your marriage, fight is a verb an action word. If your goal is to save your marriage first define what marriage means to you. Then think thru a plan that will help you achieve that goal, take action, make adjustments as needed and keep working.

So what is your instinct telling you to do? Why? How can you do what your instinct is telling you to do and save your marriage? Pray for discernment and wisdom.

Strength and Honor
Coach

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Don't let anyone else tell you what to do.

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"You need to find out what need your spouse is fulfilling by spending time with this person so that you can do a better job fulfilling that need yourself. You need to make some changes. Don't tell your spouse tha tyou are going to change or that things will be different, just start acting differently."

so if sex is the issue, then i should be having better/more sex with my h while he's having sex with OW as well cuz i'm trying to fill this need of his?

at what point do you realize that the WAS is cake eating with all this sex he's getting?

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And then of course, take care of yourself, do the things that
make you happy, because that is more attractive, and you deserve to be happy.

something doesn't sit well with me on this because you are basically saying .. spouse is priority #1 and the LBS is priority #2. when your WAS has already put you on the low priority list, putting yourself #2 basically confirms to the WAS that you are of lesser value. how is this attractive?

when you're focused on filling your spouse's needs, you will come across as needy and clingy .. and that's unattractive.

i'm just trying to filter through the advice.

D4MIL

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And if so please let me know what would make the WAS go back and work on the marriage? What would be their motivation?

i'd like to know this too. i don't think this is moral question.

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I'm just not willing to WAIT for my W to get sick of having sex with OM and then be grateful that they returned.

IM better then that and deserve more.

i agree with this. you have to stand up for yourself. you didn't run off like a coward to find OP to have your needs met. you need to see the value in yourself.

i'm all for marriages but not the point where your dignity and self-respect gets whittled down to nothing.

good questions.

D4MIL

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You are asking a moral question and not a DB question.

That's the knot in your stomach, your instinct telling you something is wrong. Stress is trying to tell you something. Watching your wife leave your home to spend "time" with another man should be against your morals. You don't control your spouse but why enable behavior that is harmful to all parties involved? Is it loving to your woman to not speak up and act in her, your marriage and family's best interests? You made a vow in front of both families & God to "love, honor and cherish" her, think thru that and make sure your actions are lining up with your word.

You can still continue to DB and see positive results while setting boundaries about three people in your marriage. You have to be willing to prepare for either outcome. It's not as simple as - "If I do this then that will happen." Focus on what you can control.

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You need to find out what need your spouse is fulfilling by spending time with this person so that you can do a better job fulfilling that need yourself.

I can solve this mystery for most of the cases out there: somebody new is exciting. Hey, mix in new with intrigue and the thrill you get just from doing something you're not supposed to be doing, and you've got a recipe for exciting, passinate stuff.

Wooo-hooo.

So what are you going to do with that?

Not that there won't be rationalizations.

From the mouth of a spouse who cheated:

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You will hear yourself saying you cheated because your needs weren�t being met. The spark was gone. You were bored in your marriage. Your lover understands you better. One or another version of this excuse will cross your lips like some dark, knee-jerk Hallmark-card sentiment

Let me preface what I'm about to say with the fact that I am a very happy, easy going person. Love life and am usually up beat. I am not writing this with anger. But this issue of exposed infidelity angers me so...

I stand firm in the following belief:

That my marriage is worth saving at all costs UNLESS I feel disrespected and objectified by HER CHOOSING to do the following:

Having me...
Pay for the car that drives my W to OM (WITH ME KNOWING IT)
Pay for the computer my W uses to email OM (WITH ME KNOWING IT)
Pay for the phone my W uses to text OM (WITH ME KNOWING IT)
Pay for the phone bill my W uses to call OM (WITH ME KNOWING IT)

This is my sitch (where she stays home and I make the money). I realize that there are other sitch's where the WAS makes the money. And in those cases it is MY OPINION the LBS shout STILL ask the WAS to leave the house.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that the LBS should give up on the M if the WAS refuses to stop the A. I'm simply saying that if the WAS refuses to give up an exposed affair, then the WAS should leave the house. That is a healthier solution for all involved INCLUDING any children.

Here is my thought process...

If my DD were to meet and marry a man, and that man started an A and kept the A going even though my DD "out�ed" him, I would ask DD to leave her H. Why you ask? That may not be what's best for her you say?

All one would need to do is look into the eyes of a LBS where their partners are carrying on an A right in front of their face and know the best course of action.

No one should live with that kind of pain. The kind where MOST PEOPLE (not all) can't work or eat or sleep.

Am I projecting me feelings toward the masses? Yup! But I wonder how many actually disagree with my feelings.

And dbmod, you DO need to think about morals in the context of DB. Without morals, there is no respect, and if I don't respect my W we are doomed anyway! So yes, I require a moral W that can make reasonable choices within a reasonable time frame. That means no cake eating on my watch!

Here is my two cents:

I think the DB/DR approach is very good especially when you are st the start of the crisis. It gives you something to dtart with, help in clearing your mind, stopping the crazy cycle of pursuing , begging, pleading, and more important but not really emphasized in the book, is letting go of your ANGER. Because I found out that the most destructive of all is to be angry, that is when you argue, defend, attack, are unreasonable and end up pushing your spouse away. DB'ing buys you time.

Detaching is the most important aspect, I think, when the initial crisis is over. This leads to the "friendshp" like stage. This is when you GAL, read, educate yourself, consider your option, and also, start trying to attract your spouse back if it suits you, create a connection if possible. It creates an atmosphere of calm, which enables you to view the sitch more clearly, WHATEVER YOUR SPOUSE IS DOING, WHETHER ITS EA, PA, CRAZINESS, AS LONG AS HE IS NOT BEATING YOU UP OR THE KIDS!

At this point, YOU then get to decide what you want to do.In mnay sitches, the above works by either making your spouse realize that the homelife is OK, or maybe at least keeps them from fleeing. Then now comes YOUR side: Do you want to start setting boundaries? Is it time? Can you take the moral aspect, the religious aspect?

In a way, DB/DR is like saying "take 10 deep breaths...." but aside from that, it also says "and do this and this while you are counting.... an action plan! For smeone at their wits end,like I was, it was a God send!

I disagree.

I want my boys, for the sake lets say they are the LBS with empty eyes, to give it their absolute best shot and then some, so that come what may, they can honestly tell themselves, "I did my damndest."

I have no regrets for DBing. If I had quit after 3-4 months...rather if I had quit without giving it my all? Everyone has a different time frame. For some 3-4 is their all.
I would have regreted it.

@#$ing edit...

: )

Clarify:

I disagree with Sad_but_Happy.

Not Angel.

And I respect your opinion JTB.

Can I ask, was your W involved in an A while living in the home you share?

If so, how long did the A last?

Yes she did.

And it lasted, for about a year. PA
EA? Months before the PA and several months after the PA.

[censored] to say, it is a relationship and like any of them must die on its own.

She lived at home for about 4 months, then lived at her friends on and off, mostly on at first. But after about 6 months, I kicked her out completely.

And at why point did she return? Did OM get tired of her or she of him? What made her return to you? Love, desperation, fear?

My name to the left of this post click on it.
View posts
Sort by topics created.

Its in there somewhere.

I'd stick with the topics created, as opposed to sorting though 9K plus piles of smiley faces.

The problem is--we ignore the spouse's point of view. We only see one side.

My example/my own life:

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I want to say something here about suspecting an affair.

If you're an oldtimer and you know me, you know I was divorced long before this board because of an abusive situation and I came to the board for a different relationship.

If you heard this version from my exH you would hear a completely different story. He thinks I had an affair. Sometimes he thinks it was an MLC. Neither are true. He treated me poorly. And at any point in the first couple of years along the way, I would have given him a chance because of my beliefs, and my past love for him.

That said, the later relationship that brought me to the board...and to my knees...so to speak...was the revelations that ensued of my own failings in the relationship and lead me to retrospection of my part in my former marriage.

I want to give yo uthe other side of that. ASSuming I was having an affair (and from my experience 16 years later on the board, I think his buddies and perhaps his family suggested that--but it was FALSE at the time), actually lead him to not take care of the issue, and to blame it on me.

Of course, this lead to the divorce and my finding another relationship. His 'AS IF' attitude created his fear, and delayed me from dealing with my own faults.

Envisioning another scenario: if he had admitted his faults, treated me well; my own shadow would have appeared and I would have had to change my own faults earlier on in that marriage. My first marriage MIGHT have had a chance.

so jealous of the Mods' ability to edit!!! Why can't we edit anymore? Won't that help people write "nicer" posts?

Also--I guess my heart is too sensitive because I couldn't bring myself to fully be friends with exH. In order to do that, it would mean listening and hearing of his relationship with OW. The betrayal is so deep that I couldn't do it.

BUT if people want to try, go for it. But if it brings you too much stress, depression and anxiety and makes your quality of life miserable...it isn't for you.

I am facing a similar situation. My wife tells me I am her best friend yet she wants divorce. We have been in limbo for a year and a half now - just moved away 6 days ago. I am struggling with the friendship question. We been together for 25 years. I cannot imagine not being her friend but at the same do not think will be possible or healthy post divorce.

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I cannot imagine not being her friend but at the same do not think will be possible or healthy post divorce.

According to your signature, you've been divorce since March, and that's what? 9 months?

Be honest. You haven't let go even after divorce. You're still holding on.

Originally Posted By: TimeHeals

According to your signature, you've been divorce since March, and that's what? 9 months? Be honest. You haven't let go even after divorce. You're still holding on.

Timeheals,

No, actually we are not divorced (need to update my signature). I moved out a year ago; I signed the dissolution agreement; my wife scheduled the divorce hearing and then cancelled (twice). She asked me to move home in May. We have been living together until just a few days ago. We are not divorced (yet). The papers I signed have since expired.

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Friendship option

What does it mean when a woman tells a man she had a romantic/intimate relationship with that she wants to be friends?

Does she really want to spend time with you, have you rub her feet, talk about her secrets with you?

What's she really saying?

What would turn her off even more?

What would get her to attracted to you again?

I am friendly with lots of women, I am only friends with one woman. Same is true of women. The difference is intimacy in a relationship, create attraction and connection.

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what will or not bring more love in their marriage.

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Sexuality is a special way that people connect with each other. Although some people have sex simply to experience a pleasant physical sensation, that is rarely all that happens. Having sex leads to having emotions.

So who gets all those emotions (bringing more love) when your spouse is having sex with someone else?

My simple brain just can't understand how acting as if and watching/enabling your spouse ML with someone else brings more love into the marriage?

Interesting research if you google Helen Fisher. Explains why sex leads to emotions.

Spot on Coach.

And therein lies the danger of being only friends. You must mix in a little romance, intamacy in order to assure that they see you as not JUST a friend but a lover too.

It's timing that matters...

"Be decisive and do what your instinct knows is right and you will have your marriage back."

That.. is some "crazy talk".

Lets take the "Mass Banning" as an example.

"You" (Coach) clearly have a knot in your stomach about all of this. But to me.. DB mods drew a line in the sand. I have to assume that they edited some post's. People got a WTF attitude and asked why.

How is this any different to "standing up" to an affair?

The act of the mods here banning people was just not listening to them talk. They did exactly what a vast majority of the "old timers" recommend. They said.. what you are doing is not acceptable. If you keep doing it.. I am gonna tell you why I don't like it.. and cut you off.

Now.. that act has created quite the ruckus. Hurt feelings all around.

I don't get it.

Why do the mods here owe you anything?

I chose to stay away from the posts that had people "going after" their WAS. Simply because I did just that and it made things worse. So from my point of view.. exposing is not always the end all.

I am not picking on PDT here...

But I remember reading a post and PDT was pushing for her to "expose".

I remember jumping in and asking if this was really the best idea. The poster had already suggested that they may get "crazy". I also remember her following thru.. and stuff not turning out well.

LRT.. has a time and a place. Yet so many times I have seen that as the first step.

My place to post is not in those threads anymore.

"Pray for discernment and wisdom."

I question both of those things in your posts recently. If you are like me.. your focus has changed some.

At the end of the day.. we are both tasked with knowing our postee.

We by posting say.. I will hold your hand.. and help.

If you were truly DB'ing you would find a way to get your point across.

Yes.. there are times when exposing and filing for a D is DB'ing.

Yes.. there are times when you need to protect yourself from things that are happening in RL. What was her name.. MaryAngela?

No.. is there ever a time when a "old timer" should be leading a "Newcomer" to anything.

From what I "see" the poster leads. We just encourage them to try that.

When that fails.. we give them options.

Coach.. I expect newbies to fail.

It is part of the walk.

No matter how good you think you are.. you can't fix everything

They will come and find you.. when they really need help.

Leaders show up.

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They said.. what you are doing is not acceptable. If you keep doing it.. I am gonna tell you why I don't like it.. and cut you off.

Problem that never happened. There was and is no discusion.

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But to me.. DB mods drew a line in the sand.

Not consistent or in the appliciation of that line. People were targeted then asked questions and got no response. No warning of what would happened if things continued.

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Why do the mods here owe you anything?

Never said that. Don't think it.

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Hurt feelings all around.

My feelings aren't hurt. I understand some of what has been done. The part that isn't logical is the lack of discusion from the other side, the one with editing capability.

I have never used the word "expose" on here. I am a firm believer in boundaries. When I coach I don't teach plays, I teach concepts - understand what the other team is doing and react in a effective way. And every game has rules (boundaries) otherwise a unscrupulous team/player has an advantage you don't because your values, beliefs and morals won't allow you to behave that way.

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If you were truly DB'ing you would find a way to get your point across.

My point is people should think for themselves. DB isn't the end all of advice, the tenents are adopted from other self-help programs. I understand DB early on because I had read it in numerous other places.

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They did exactly what a vast majority of the "old timers" recommend. They said.. what you are doing is not acceptable. If you keep doing it.. I am gonna tell you why I don't like it.. and cut you off.

It worked didn't it?

Cheers

At the same time, as Al Turtle points out in his work on boundaries, "all people act at their own pace. Trying to speed them up often produces the opposite result" of freezing and leaving them stuck longer.

I feel this part of the boundary concept has sometimes been overlooked here, in people's eagerness to have newbies not make the same (necessary) mistakes that they themselves have made.

Originally Posted By: Cyrena

At the same time, as Al Turtle points out in his work on boundaries, "all people act at their own pace. Trying to speed them up often produces the opposite result" of freezing and leaving them stuck longer.

I feel this part of the boundary concept has sometimes been overlooked here, in people's eagerness to have newbies not make the same (necessary) mistakes that they themselves have made.

I agree, and I think that is a good deal of the DB point. Every person is different and every relationship is different, has it's own characteristics, personalities, and pace is part of that.

Originally Posted By: dbmod

Originally Posted By: Cyrena

At the same time, as Al Turtle points out in his work on boundaries, "all people act at their own pace. Trying to speed them up often produces the opposite result" of freezing and leaving them stuck longer.

I feel this part of the boundary concept has sometimes been overlooked here, in people's eagerness to have newbies not make the same (necessary) mistakes that they themselves have made.

I agree, and I think that is a good deal of the DB point. Every person is different and every relationship is different, has it's own characteristics, personalities, and pace is part of that.

Me too, Al Turtle has a lot of solution based advice that brings more love into marriages.

I heartily agree that boundary setting has its own pace. And in some situations, may not be needed at all. Setting them or trying to set them while you still have anger in your heart, while you are not strong, will lead to your not thinking about the right things to say and approaching your spouse in the wrong way. DB'ing before boundary setting for me was the way to go.

I think, if anything, DBing buys you time and gives you patience. Time to stabilize, to calm the situation down, time to let let your spouse change his/her mind, time to let you plan your moves. And we all know that time is what heals. Its a matter of riding the situation out. Everything must come to an end, sooner or later, and that goes for affairs and life crisis, which is mostly what we see here.

"Problem that never happened. There was and is no discusion."

Being edited is not discussion? Posts being delayed is not discussion?

"Not consistent or in the appliciation of that line. People were targeted then asked questions and got no response. No warning of what would happened if things continued."

Was the response edited.. or delayed? I would expect a mod to go after the people they found lacking. They most likely want to make sure they need a ban. Ask me how I understand that.

"Never said that. Don't think it."

And yet you do. You have stated that if my thoughts will not be heard.. I choose not to post. Or did I miss something?

"The part that isn't logical is the lack of discusion from the other side, the one with editing capability."

To a point I understand. DB is not an open forum. It never has been. Nor do I expect it will be. It is not DB's job to point you in the right direction.. if things don't work out. People have been creative and pointed people elsewhere. To me I wish every poster "here" (db.com) was a newbie. I wish they came looking for help and would pay attention. Maybe then I could share my walk with them. Maybe they would listen. Maybe they would make fun of me. At the end of the day it was their choice to listen or find "something" else.

"My point is people should think for themselves. DB isn't the end all of advice, the tenents are adopted from other self-help programs. I understand DB early on because I had read it in numerous other places."

I have always thought that DB'ing was "self help". I disagree that DB was formed from the "adoption" of other things. I think DB comes from the "Work" that MWD does in RL. Sure there are times that other things will work. But it still implies that the "old timer" can be creative enough to get the message thru. I have to expect that at some point MWD had to turn "someone" away. Is it really her job to walk them to the next best thing?

"It worked didn't it?"

I am not really sure it had the effect they wanted. Yes.. it removed the initial threat. But the aftermath has been a source of "heartache" for me. Do I think it should have been thought out some more? Yes.

This is why I question it some. Sometimes you have to make a statement. And pay attention to who follows.

I just "see" a lot of forced WAS making waves right now.

I don't know what DB.com will become after this. I am just watching and waiting for that. I made a choice. I have to trust that I will be smart enough to see the chances when they show up.

Personally, Forrest, I'm glad you're here--I learn from you sometimes. I do not have enough time to get specific here, but I will when I get a chance.