A month after I found the emails between my wife and OM, my wife sat me down and told me: "A woman is like a bar of soap; the harder you squeeze, the faster she slips through your fingers."
That's some tough love, for sure, but we all know it's true. I see her comment as a blessing though; it brought me to this wonderful place, where I have found outstanding support and guidance through the shared experiences of all of you here. What has surprised me the most, however, is how similar our events unfold and the predictable patterns that follow. I know that I still have a lot to learn, but I've already "Maned Up" and started implementing the DB strategy to my relationship (with noticeable results).
Within days of finding this site, I knew she had to leave the house. Nothing good was coming from her sneaking around, lying about where she was going, who she was with and so on.... One night I calmly asked her if she had considered leaving me? She had, of course, and then I asked where she would go? She considered her options and suggested a small apartment across town that we own, but haven't rented. It's a dump, but I offered to help her paint it and move her stuff. She was gone.
To satisfy my curiosity, I drove by her apartment several times the following weekend (2:00 a.m. 4:00 a.m. 6:00 a.m.), but she didn't come home. I knew at that point that the EA had become a PA. She doesn't know I checked and I haven't done it since. I haven't said anything to her about it, at all. In fact, since she's moved out, we haven't discussed anything uncomfortable. All interaction has been initiated by her and I should get an Oscar for my performance as a happy stable man. Truth be known, I'm a complete wreck.
I keep locking my keys in the car (sometimes while it's still running). My wife has a spare key, but I dare not call her for help for fear of being exposed for the pathetic loser she already knows I am. On average, I lose an hour and a cote-hanger every time it happens. My life sucks, but she will never know it.
It has been a month since she moved out. She keeps finding reasons to come around and she calls me several times a day, for no particular reason. We have simple conversations, nothing heavy, like you would treat a first date: no pressure, well timed compliments, you know the drill. Now for the bad news.
Our marriage counselor thinks we are codependent and suggested that we limit our contact. She might be right. I don't know, but I'm going to have a hard time DBing without contact. Has anybody had any experience with this sort of thing?
Now what do I do?
Sinclair
Our marriage counselor thinks we are codependent and suggested that we limit our contact. She might be right. I don't know, but I'm going to have a hard time DBing without contact. Has anybody had any experience with this sort of thing?
Your MC has given you excellent advice.
Why are you dependent on her?
What can you do to change this behavior?
It is now time to look in the mirror and become responsible for those things that you can change.
Cut out your portion of the contact.
Learn detachment.
Your wife is telling you what you must do.
Stop squeezing the bar of soap!
There are ways to show your love without words.
Remember actions speak louder than words.
Have you read Divorce Remedy or Divorce Busting?
My life sucks, but she will never know it.
It has been a month since she moved out. She keeps finding reasons to come around and she calls me several times a day, for no particular reason. We have simple conversations, nothing heavy, like you would treat a first date: no pressure, well timed compliments, you know the drill. Now for the bad news.
Sinclair
You do realise you have played things fantastically. she is coming to you because she is wondering what you are doing?
Now is the time for you to GAL. Join a meetup.com group, get out 3 or 4 times a week. (i'm assuming you have no kids). Ignore her calls , let them go to voicemail, call back several hours or a a day later if at all.
When she calls round tell her you are on your way out (it doesn't matter where).Don't start dating but go out in mixed groups and mingle with members of the opposite sex. Be polite to her but upbeat and always on the way somewhere. Once the reality of OM sinks in she may well want you back.
Do not fall for the first attempt there are many others on here more experienced than me who can tell you how to handle that.
Hi sinclair--
Welcome to divorcebusting.com! I assume you are here because you want to save your marriage.
Your pattern with your wife gets in the way of growing your love for each other. Rob is right to the extent that when you are over-pursuing you need to back off. Cadet is right to the extent that you have to change your own behavior to affect your wife's behavior.
You need a different counselor if you want to save your marriage.
If all you've got is no contact, you don't have a marriage.
Start doing something different. Build the friendship part of your marriage. This is not the time to go out with other folks and invoke jealousy, the pushmepullyou thing. Strengthen the warmth and care between you. Do it slowly, calmly.
You will feel so empowered when you do it.
This is not the time to go out with other folks and invoke jealousy, the pushmepullyou thing.
You are right doing it to invoke jelousy is totally wrong. I am suggesting that he does it for his own sanity.
Thanks for clarifying, Rob. Sometimes that is the right thing to do.
Your MC has given you excellent advice.
Why are you dependent on her?
What can you do to change this behavior?
Thank you for your thoughtful response Cadet. I will try to provide more insight.
In some respects, my Sit is unique: My wife and and I are living in Panama. She is completely fluent in Spanish and I am not. My communication skills in Spanish are fairly basic and this often causes misunderstandings with people. Many of our mutual friends don't speak any English at all, which prevents me from sharing in the depths of conversation.
I rely too much on my wife to help me translate. In many cases, the language barrier has caused us to reverse our traditional roles: In business, for instance, I have always held the more assertive role, while she prefers to be passive. Left to her own, she would avoid confrontation at all cost. Unfortunately, there are time when confrontation is unavoidable and necessary. In many instances, I have had to push her into an assertive role to protect our interests. It makes her uncomfortable and she resents me for it, but I don't feel like I have many options.
At the time of the bomb, she said that she was done helping me; she wanted no part in our business. I have since hired a bilingual assistant, which has helped some, but things are far from perfect.
Spanish language classes are offered at several of the Universities, but the next trimester doesn't start until after the new year. Language hasn't come easy to me and I'm afraid it will take years of study. If this is necessary for me to turn things around, I fear that it will take too long.
For the same reasons, detachment will be more difficult. I will need to find English speaking support groups in a Spanish speaking country. No doubt, it can be done, but I will have fewer options.
Perhaps my best option would be to move back to the States. She might follow me once she understands her loss. I just don't know--it's a gamble.
You do realise you have played things fantastically.
I couldn't have done it without the help from people on this site. Thank you for your support, Rob1971, it means a lot to me.
I tried "going dark" before I had read DR. She called every ten minutes for hours and eventually drove over to my house to find me outside landscaping the front yard. She was very angry with me for not answering the phone.
Having read DR, I now understand "going dark" is a last resort. I feel that my use of this technique was inappropriate for my Sit and regret having done it.
The book said to quit doing the things that don't work, so I stopped "going dark" and things have improved. Am I missing something?
Sinclair
You need a different counselor if you want to save your marriage.
If all you've got is no contact, you don't have a marriage.
I trust your insight, dbmod. In fact, I had come to the same conclusion.
It has taken a little while for me to realize that my wife and I need to rebuild our friendship. She has been many things to me and our friendship has suffered as a result.
At the moment, we are both showing the classic signs of depression. Our sleeping patterns have been disrupted and we consistently wake at 3:00 a.m. and can't get back to sleep. On one such occasion (not having much ells to do at that hour) I drove down to the beach for a walk. My wife drove by the house that morning and assumed that I had spent the night out. At which point, I told her the following (in no uncertain terms):
"I am a married man. I am, at all times, conducting my life in a manner that is consistent with staying a married man."
For twenty years I've never given her any reason to doubt my sincerity in this regard and I believe she understands.
My biggest breakthrough was the morning I accepted my part in our crises and I told her that I was sorry.
I'm taking it one step at a time. "Poco a poco" as they are so fond of saying around here.
Sinclair
Honestly, the title you chose alone hints at the "codependency" aspect you mentioned.
She doesn't hold your heart. You hold your heart. It's in your hands. You may want to share it, you may want to reach out, but don't compromise that position.
Accept that you do not control what she does. And what she is doing may be hurtful. You can and should love her still despite that, but it doesn't change the intrinsic wrongness of her choices nor should you sugarcoat that.
I know it's hard. Don't read too much into her attempts to contact you, and stop driving yourself crazy trying to figure out what she's doing, with OM or otherwise.
Sinclair,
I am in the same boat. I am trying to execute a 180 with a wife that won't see me. I have not been in her presence in 28 days. When we were married, the longest we ever went without seeing each other was five days and during that time, we spoke three times a day. I am also looking for advice on how to pull off a 180 with someone than can't see the changes because she won't see me. But I am not going to let this deter me. In that 28 days, I have not tried to contact her once and I have gotten one positive sign. She sent me an email out of the blue a few days ago after weeks of no communication. It was only one sentence, but it was the only communication she has instituted in weeks. Today, she sent me a one line text wishing me a Happy Thanksgiving. I sent back a one-line, basic friendly reply and let it go. No "I miss you," no "I love you." Just "Happy Thanksgiving and I hope you are doing well," and signed off. More importantly, I waited two hours to reply just to keep her guessing. Don't ever reply right away unless it is necessary. Don't let her know that you are sitting there waiting for contact. I don't want to get too excited about the communication today, but it is something to keep me going.
Also, I can't stress enough the power of exercise. Three weeks ago I went back to the gym for the first time in 10 years. I now work out four days a week for 90 minutes per session. I bought an Ipod, filled it with motivational music and hit the weights like a mad man every other day. I have put three pounds of the 10 I lost after she left back on. I am eating like a horse again and I have already gotten some compliments about how much better I look. I have to admit I was pushed into it by another friend of mine who had his wife leave him also. He looks like an NFL linebacker now due to his time in the gym. The best thing is that when I leave the gym, I feel great and for 90 minutes, I don't think about anything but busting my own butt with the weights. Give it a try. You won't regret it. Not to mention, the next time she does she you, you will have a new confidence about yourself that she has not seen. I wish you the best of luck and stay in touch.
Fellonblackdays
Nicely said, Deep.
Sinclair, I have to agree with Deep, Rob and Cadet.
You need to NOT initiate conversations or texts.
Keep your distance and stay busy doing things for you.
Make changes in your home to suit you. Move that furniture and/or change that 'girly' decoration that has always bugged you.
Look at what she has said about your behaviour in the marriage. If what she said "stung", there is likely something to it that needs to be addressed. NOW is the time to look at behaviors that YOU don't like about you. Start with the ones that NEITHER of you like.
When (not if) she starts to push your buttons to make you behave like the person she left (she wants to reinforce her view that you ARE wrong for her), you have to resist. THAT is why you shouldn't answer phone calls. Text and email are KING!! It gives you time to calm your kneejerk reflex responses (what she expects)
Do not argue with her view of you or the M. "I'm sorry you feel that way" is a nice way to validate her feelings and avoid confrontation'
ANother great phrase is "I understand what you're saying. I'm going to need to think about that some more"
You need a different counselor if you want to save your marriage.
Good call, DBMod!
Why are you going to MC if she is sleeping with someone else?
You need IC!! Make some calls and see if you can find one familiar with Divorce Remedy and other marriage advocacy programs. Google helps a lot.
If all you've got is no contact, you don't have a marriage.
Right again, DB. Sinclair has a "threesome". That isn't a marriage.
Start doing something different. Build the friendship part of your marriage. This is not the time to go out with other folks and invoke jealousy, the pushmepullyou thing. Strengthen the warmth and care between you. Do it slowly, calmly.
Going out with the purpose of invoking jealousy is absolutely the wrong thing, Sinclair. This isn't about her anymore. You should be going out to stay busy; increase your circle of friends and re-establish contact with friends you may have drifted away from during your M.
DBmod-I'm sorry but I couldn't find the section of DR that recommends the bolded lines in the case of a cheating spouse. Little help, please? I'd like to know more about this strategy.
I didn't have the opportunity to explore this when I was at Sinclair's stage in the sitch.
Thanks
When (not if) she starts to push your buttons to make you behave like the person she left (she wants to reinforce her view that you ARE wrong for her), you have to resist. THAT is why you shouldn't answer phone calls. Text and email are KING!! It gives you time to calm your kneejerk reflex responses (what she expects)
Thanks CD Bear
It helps to have a road map. I'll try to prepare myself for this.
Good call, DBMod!
Why are you going to MC if she is sleeping with someone else?
You need IC!! Make some calls and see if you can find one familiar with Divorce Remedy and other marriage advocacy programs.
Our MC had a shift in her focus after our third session. She didn't think her efforts as MC were productive. She suggested changing her roll and asked each of us to consider where she could be more helpful. Her last meeting was with my wife; she is now my wife's IC.
Look at what she has said about your behaviour in the marriage. If what she said "stung", there is likely something to it that needs to be addressed. NOW is the time to look at behaviors that YOU don't like about you. Start with the ones that NEITHER of you like.
Yes, this is what I am currently addressing. The crux of the problem is that I neglected my wife; I wasn't fulfilling her emotional needs; I took her for granted. Not that she is blameless (she certainly played her part), but if I had been paying closer attention to my wife's needs, the crises would not have happened in the first place. I was asleep.
Now I am awake! What I believe my wife is telling me (through her actions--not her words) is that I have an opportunity to set a new course for us. If I can take the right approach, something good can come from all of this. So I have been applying the DB techniques; I am taking it slow and I am rebuilding trust between us. I have asked her for nothing. She has offered nothing. But I am no longer asleep and I can see that the changes I have made to myself are working.
Each time we meet, she stays a little longer; she laughs a little more; and she becomes more relaxed. Her body language has changed; she feels comfortable in my presence. She is learning that she can trust the changes that I have made, that they are permanent. So far, she hasn't felt the need to test those changes, but I hope that I will be able to meet those challenges when they come.
Exactly I mean isn't giving your friendship to a cheating spouse rewarding bad behaviour.
Rob1971
That was how I felt at first. I've moved beyond that now. The pain is still there, but what I have come to realize is that she, too, feels the pain. In many ways her pain is worse. She knows in her heart that she was weak; she is feeling shame, remorse and failure. I believe that these feeling can become obstacles in our path that prevents the healing process from getting started.
For me, the DB techniques removed these obstacles. The OM does not occupy my thoughts. I don't discuss OM; it's not about him; it's about me and my wife. Why make OM important? Doing so, gives him power; it gives him a place in your relationship. I've removed OM and the negative feeling associated with OM from our path. Our path is now clear, without obstacles, we can move forward.
We are a mirror for our spouse. If I were to reflect bitterness and resentment towards her, it will perpetuate more of the same in our relationship. I don't want that; I don't think she wants that either. If, on the other hand, I reflect a sense of calm and understanding, it will promote more of the same from her. Right?
The DR book tells us that we need to set small goals and work toward them. One of my goals is to promote calm and understanding in our relationship. due to my efforts (alone) we now have calm and understanding in our relationship; I have reached that goal and I can continue moving along the path.
Sinclair
Sinclair's goal is to save his marriage and grow his marriage. Your advice to him doesn't include that strategy.
He is not in the 'last resort technique', he definitely not in the 'after the last resort technique' which is pretty much what you are suggesting.
And p. 213-214: (section talking about changes you'd like to see in your marriage.)
"Go slowly. You have a lot of time to get to know each other again. You don't have to tackle every concern in a one-houjr discussion. Take your time. Proceed lovingly.
If both of you follow the advice outlined and ignore friends and relatives who ask, "Why do you put up with that" or I can't believe s/he hasn't gotten over this yet," you will start to feel that your marriage is moving in the right direction."...
Michele goes on to say, then jump to Chapter 8---Keeping the Positive Changes Going. and then...to page 161, in the example she gives.....
"...I continued to work on the business and to employ the simple, unconditional frienship that has always been an ally in my relationship with my wife."
And then there's more exampls in Chapter 9, "Pulling it All Together".
Hang in there, sinclair. You can have a great marriage.
..."Build the friendship part of the marriage..." CD Bear, I can't direct you to DR section that recommends it, but there is Michelle's article titled "While your spouse decides" in article section of the homepage.
Sky
Here it is:
While your spouse decides
Thank you for the article, it captures my sentiments fairly well.
Sinclair
FellOnBlackDays, I'm sorry that you find yourself in this place, but it sounds like something positive will result. From my experience, it starts slow (little baby steps). Her text/email is a good sign; she is telling you how to make contact. Your wife is probably scared. She doesn't know how you are going to react.
Follow the DB techniques and bring calm to your relationship.
After 28 days of no contact, I don't think a positive email to your wife is breaking any rules. Just don't ask her any questions. In her mind, you should already know her reasons for everything. I would start by telling her she made a good decision. Tell her that the time apart has been therapeutic and necessary. Tell her that you admire her strength. Don't argue; don't ask questions. Support her decisions (even if you don't agree). Build trust between you.
Sinclair
Originally Posted By: dbmod
If all you've got is no contact, you don't have a marriage.
Right again, DB. Sinclair has a "threesome". That isn't a marriage.
This comment is not only false, but it's offensive, CD Bear.
I've had no intimate physical contact with with my wife for some time. If there is a 'threesome' going on, I'm certainly not a party to it. My wife's sexual behavior is her business. We are separated. I don't claim to know what she is doing and neither should you.
At this point in time, my wife and I are friends. It's the first step in what maybe a long process; we still need to rebuild trust.
Ok...I need advice. My wife and I had a break though today. She told me that she wanted to start dating me. When I asked her why, she said that I've been acting differently; I reminded her of the guy she married. So far so good, but I couldn't leave it; I had to start in with the R talk...
I asked her if I had an exclusive. Was she dating others? My bad. Things started feeling less comfortable. She gave me the answer I wanted; she told me that she wasn't dating anyone ells... of course, but what could she say under the circumstances. Right?
So it's Saturday night and she's tired and tells me that she didn't sleep well the night before; She needs to get to bed early... I returned to my house and got an early nights sleep myself... until 1:00 a.m. when the neighbor's party got going and I woke to loud music.
There I am sitting up in bed, wide awake, thinking about my wife and her new found interest in me, her loyalty? Or not? The doubts start flying through my head: what if... was she really tired... is she or isn't she still with OM? And the little Devil on my right shoulder says, "verify" "see if she's home." The Angle on my left shoulder says, "don't be silly" "it's 1:00 a.m., she was tired, of course she's home." It almost came to blows between these two, so I decided to put the matter to rest and drive by her apartment and check for myself. Her car wasn't there.
Now what? If she is still going out with OM and lying about it, should I date her anyway? This would have been so much easier if I hadn't asked her any questions. Why don't I heed my own advice? But now I know she lied and I've made the sitch more complicated for myself.
Yet, if this was a first date (with anyone other than my wife), I certainly would not have asked her if she was dating others. If I hadn't asked, I would not have needed to verify.
I really like the idea of spending quality time with my wife again, but now it feels like I'm in competition with OM. Should I see this as an opportunity? At least now I'm in a position to compete, where as before, I was shutout completely.
On the other hand, is this the "threesome" that CD Bear was suggesting?
This sucks! I went from feeling good about my progress to feeling like $hit.
The good news is that my wife doesn't know that I drove by her apartment. In that sense, nothing has changed. I haven't lost any progress in the DB department. I just need to get my head around what this means to me and how I should proceed.
Hi, Sinclair-
I wasn't suggesting you were participatingin a threesome.
I was telling you (agreed, a little harshly) that you don't have a "marriage" to repair as there are three people in it.
If it helps, I recently came to the conclusion (after I nicely helped her load out all her possessions so she could move in with OM) that "competing with" or "trying to out OM the OM) is not what I am after.
I do not wish to be compared or in a competition for my own wife.
It is clear to me that I need to do what I need to do to repair what I can about my contributions to the "disintegration/dysfunction" in the marriage for ME!
My next R or M will be so different. And that could be with my W or not. Nobody knows that answer yet.
Your W (like mine) has made a decision to move on to someone else and chose them over you. However, I do not wish to be the safety net so she can simply move back/change her mind. This sets a bad precedent.
her choice/decision (as I've stated "no open marriage") is now to choose between OM and NOT OM. Only if she can choose to see the unhealthiness of THAT R can she be in a position to make a clear decision to prefer ME over single. Changing beds is NOT a healthy personal decision.
Until she can see her codependency; her contribution to the the M trouble; her OWN issues; and her R patteerns; there will be nothing for us to "piece' back together into a NEW M.
The old M is dead. It diddn't work. She needs to SEE that a new R with you will NOT be the one she chose to leave.She needs to see (and it appears your W is beginning to ) that YOU will not be the same husband either.
Only she and the IC can make this happen.
I've seen it far too often that 'early piecing' is a miserable failure. Not enough time, space and change has occurred in EITHER partner.
I'm sorry you felt offended by my earlier commented. That was NOT my intention.
Sorry, forgot to add something.
Why not (again, for your own sake), order the 'Rozetta' Stone Spanish course to your 180/GAL list?
Solve two problems at once!
No reliance on your wife's Spanish?
Eliminate the need/cost of an assistant?
Also adds to your confidence and self-esteem/self-reliance.
My two cents.
Until she can see her codependency; her contribution to the the M trouble; her OWN issues; and her R patteerns; there will be nothing for us to "piece' back together into a NEW M.
DB,
You appear to be saying that you could forgive your wife, if she is willing to meet your conditions. I recently asked myself that question: "under what condition(s) could I forgive my wife." My conclusion was different from yours. I have already forgiven her, unconditionally.
I arrived at this conclusion after some internal debate. For me, there were no conditions that I could impose that would ever make me ok with what happened. It helped me to work the logic backwards. I rephrased the question, "What would I accept in advance, for me to agree to my wife's affair?" The answer was clear: I wouldn't agree to pimp-out my wife for anything.
Would you come to the same conclusion, DB, if you asked yourself the same question? Could you agree, in advance, to her having an affair, if she first met your list of requirements?
Yet you are here (like the rest of us) willingly, working on your relationship with your wife (aka working on yourself to influence your wife's decision to work on your relationship). Call it what you like; the point is, you have, in your heart, already decided to forgive her or you wouldn't be here. Perhaps, your conditions are standing in the way of your goals.
Thank you for clarifying your "threesome" remark; it helped me to better understand your comment. No hard feelings.
Why not (again, for your own sake), order the 'Rozetta' Stone Spanish course to your 180/GAL list?
This morning I started contacting Spanish Tutors. I've already received replies from two of them. Why did it take a crises for me to see such an obvious first step?
Thanks CD
Sinclair, you have WONDERFUL news!!!!!
CD probably means well but he isn't helping, his advice hurts the process and your AS IF mentality.
You have no reason to doubt her now. You have a chance so many folks wish they had...and it's because you ARE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.
You wife is choosing YOU. That's beautiful.
Now--how did you go about falling in love before?
Keep your good changes going! I'm proud of you.
You have no reason to doubt her now. You have a chance so many folks wish they had...and it's because you ARE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.
You wife is choosing YOU. That's beautiful.
Thank you for your positive words, dbmod, but I'm not really sure how to interpret my wife's behavior. Is this a normal part of the process? If she chose me, why didn't she spend the night at my house?
I haven't been getting much sleep lately; I'm physically and emotionally drained. Hopefully I'll have a more positive outlook tomorrow.
Sinclair-
You are welcome on the Spanish.
I have forgiven my wife. No worries.
Used the same reasoning you did.
I addressed some of your follow up questions and comments in another post but Moderator removed it.
I am unable to help you any further.
DBMod will handle it from here.
Sorry
She is going slow, testing the waters and you just need to go slow.
She is going slow, testing the waters and you just need to go slow.
I think there needs to be a clear "Boundary" here. My DB Coach and Sandi2(both women)basically stated she has to feel a sense of loss. She can't have BOTH.
This doesn't mean you be an A-hole, but SHE will not respect you if you "date" her knowing that she has someone else. Period.
This also means you can't go "rage" against her, you have to show yourself as the better option, but dating her while she might be actively dating OM is just not going to work.(In other words, keep working on you and doing DB)
Sinclair, YOU ARE THE BETTER MAN. You show her this by going out and and making her WANT to be with you by NOT accepting an open marriage and working on YOUR faults in the M. Your work here is being the BETTER YOU. You want to leave her with a sense of "Why am I with the OM, when I have this guy?"
If she is actively seeing this other guy and TELLING you she isn't, you have the right to verify this. YOU cannot compete with this guy AND respect yourself the next day.
You need to keep DB'ing, but not as a "second" option. Even MWD tells you how to obtain this respect and if you don't achieve it you do have the option to take ultimate action.
She is going slow, testing the waters and you just need to go slow.
I think there needs to be a clear "Boundary" here. My DB Coach and Sandi2(both women)basically stated she has to feel a sense of loss. She can't have BOTH.
This doesn't mean you be an A-hole, but SHE will not respect you if you "date" her knowing that she has someone else. Period.
This also means you can't go "rage" against her, you have to show yourself as the better option, but dating her while she might be actively dating OM is just not going to work.(In other words, keep working on you and doing DB)
Sinclair, YOU ARE THE BETTER MAN. You show her this by going out and and making her WANT to be with you by NOT accepting an open marriage and working on YOUR faults in the M. Your work here is being the BETTER YOU. You want to leave her with a sense of "Why am I with the OM, when I have this guy?"
If she is actively seeing this other guy and TELLING you she isn't, you have the right to verify this. YOU cannot compete with this guy AND respect yourself the next day.
You need to keep DB'ing, but not as a "second" option. Even MWD tells you how to obtain this respect and if you don't achieve it you do have the option to take ultimate action.
^^^^^ABSOLUTELY^^^^^^
In Divorce Remedy, in the chapter on Infidelity, MWD makes the need for this boundary very clear.
It has the potential to be "wonderful news" AFTER this boundary is in place and being respected by your W Sinclair. I hope for you that this happens. But, until then, you would be wise to follow the approach that Faith outlines above.
Sinclair is in a different place than the two of you are.
Your wife is testing the waters with you. She is interest in YOU. There is no need to second guess that. Take her at face value, and if/when you have a new reason to distrust, then you check that out if you want to.
The boundary/ultimatum is the AFTER THE LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE. You are not there.
Go with your own goal Sinclair.
Everyone here, including me, has an agenda when they post and they have their own perspective when they post. I make no apologies that my agenda is to support your goal to save your marriage.
You are the only person with the knowledge of your own relationship. You can only show your own perspective here, but the more you test your solutions, think about what is her perspective of your relationship is as well.
Sinclair is in a different place than the two of you are.
Not really. Assuming at it's best.
Your wife is testing the waters with you. She is interest in YOU. There is no need to second guess that. Take her at face value, and if/when you have a new reason to distrust, then you check that out if you want to.
If your gut is telling you OM is in the picture, he is. Verify. My Wife is still interested in me too. Guilt? Trouble letting go? To be mean? I have NO idea. She is divorcing me, but one simple rule...If he's in her Life, I'm not. I'll continue to work on me and I will continue to DB, but as far as OM is in picture I can't compete with that. Me working on me, is what keeps her coming back to check .
You are the only person with the knowledge of your own relationship. You can only show your own perspective here, but the more you test your solutions, think about what is her perspective of your relationship is as well.
Hence WHY we can only offer info on our Sitches. If we have experienced Wayward spouses, then we have a RIGHT to tell what we can do differently.
Sinclair has a very good situation, but so do I. I validated my Wife and continue to give her what SHE wants, but ADVICE according to this board and my DB COACH is also to respect myself. SINCE, I have done this and have actually focused on me and MY healthy Boundary, guess who contacts me on a daily basis?
My Goal is to save my Marriage, but I can't do it if I have someone else satisfying HER emotional needs. Much as I try, that has to die out on it's own. My choice is to move on, but treat her the way I DID NOT.
However, Did I cheat? NO.
Will I accept an Open Marriage? NO
Did I quit? No
Has RockedHER? NO
Did CD quit? NO
Will I continue to work on me and my part? Yes
Do not discredit our advice, because we are in the trenches. We are DB'ing, not promoting Divorce, but UNTIL the interlopers are out of the picture and our Spouses focus on themselves, we really can't do much else.
But I can sleep at night. Sinclair, I want you to be able to look in the mirror and KNOW you did the right thing and can sleep at night too.
The boundary/ultimatum is the AFTER THE LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE. You are not there.
"Sometimes, even after you've done all the right things, your spouse still refuses to stop seeing the OP. At some point, you may start to feel that you can no longer go on this way." The Divorce Remedy, pg. 218-9. This is MWD's description in her own words of the "After the Last Resort Technique".
DBmod... please explain to me, if no boundary has been set about not seeing the OP yet, how can MWD say the above? That makes no sense. There is a DIFFERENCE between the boundary Faith and I are referring to (meaning "I will not be in an open marriage, I will not date you while you are dating other people" vs. the Ultimatum that MWD discusses on pp. 230-231 of DR.
I did not read either Faith nor myself suggesting anything about an ultimatum.
Setting a boundary demonstrates self respect. That is attractive. Allowing your spouse to continue their infidelity while taking whatever crumbs they give you does not. That is unattractive and does a great deal of damage to one's self esteem.
I'm not sure what assumptions are being made about my motivations, but let me be clear that my motivations also happen to be to help Sinclair save his marriage. I have no other "agenda" than that, and don't appreciate insinuations to that effect.
Trust is a choice but don't make a blind choice.
On the emotional front an affair (on both ends really) is a huge obstacle to overcome. Even if she is not seeing OM still there is a period of withdrawal and often times the spouse who has committed infidelity will return to the LBS. This is a good time to strike IF you have put in place all the parameters necessary to safeguard both you and your marriage from further infidelity. And really, your W has to be totally on board.
And lets be real here... there are MANY reasons an adulterous spouse shows interest again. She may really have some interest but don't discount ulterior motives (finances, legal trouble and so on). The best way to find out if ulterior motives are fueling her new found interest is to fully execute the plan for safeguarding the marriage. If she fails to happily comply the consequences will be swift.
EVERYBODY here hopes to save their marriage. Saving a marriage is not a black and white endeavor and many things have to be considered. Honestly, if your state is one that acknowledges adultery in legal proceedings I would certainly investigate. In some states if a spouse has had an affair and the other spouse knows about it AND has sex AFTER the affair then they have consented to the affair. Sadly, some spouses who show "interest" after being caught know this and protect themselves via VERY manipulated channels.
Remove the doubt by implementing the basic plan that EVERYBODY should be following when recovering from an affair. But your W needs to do the bulk of the work, show remorse and REALLY not balk at the details of it all. Otherwise you are asking for more trouble. Don't fool yourself thinking you are on an even playing field here.
RockedHerWorld
FaithnAK
Thank you for joining my thread. You appear to be giving me similar advice to CDBear, but the way you phrase it (without the hate and anger in your voice) your point is made and feels heartfelt. dbmod seems to have missed the part where my wife didn't return to her apartment all night.
Essentially, when my wife suggested that we start dating, it wasn't inappropriate (R Talk) for me to ask her if she was dating other men. It fact, it is the necessary prelude to setting boundaries: "I will not live in an open marriage" and "I will not date you while you are dating other men." Likewise, it was not inappropriate for me to have "verified" by driving by her apartment. Now that I am reasonably certain that the affair continues, in spite of her reassurances, I need to set those boundaries.
I can see from my own reaction (to those who have taken the time to post) that this will be a delicate conversation. She appears to be sitting on the fence; a little push could send her in either direction. Worse yet, would be to accept the sitch with my doubts and lose respect for myself. How can she respect me if I don't?
What if I wrote her a letter? If I start writing it, can I get everyone's help in editing it?
I would not write a letter, text, call or e-mail anything to your W. Honestly, the conversation need not be hard or long. Any decent family therapist would tell you that setting your boundaries is a 2 min. conversation and your W need not "think" about it. It's yes or no. If she is unable to provide you with the necessary safeguards to keep your marriage affair free and do so with remorse and openness you will know right away.
Plus - if you handle this right YOUR demeanor matters. Body language, eye contact and tone are essential. By setting YOUR boundaries and NOT delivering ultimatums you are leaving the choice up to her to make with free will.
Don't emasculate yourself by using the word delicate or any other "touch feely" verbiage. Firm, loving action is required and that will require a masculine approach. You don't have the power to push her either way (none of us do). Set your boundaries and let her decide freely.
I do not agree with faith or Rocked...but I will leave them up.
And unless I missed something, her not coming home was BEFORE she said she gave him up and decided she wanted to start dating you.
Your AS IF IS a delicate thing. The very thing you ASSUME you can often create. Unless you have a new reason not to trust her (if you mean by driving by you saw his car there), then trust her. If you saw his car there, keep your eyes and ears open. It could have been a goodbye, he could have been stopping by unwelcome. Keep open, but don't jump to conclusions.
I do agree with City Girl:
I would not write a letter, text, call or e-mail anything to your W. Honestly, the conversation need not be hard or long. Any decent family therapist would tell you that setting your boundaries is a 2 min. conversation and your W need not "think" about it. It's yes or no. If she is unable to provide you with the necessary safeguards to keep your marriage affair free and do so with remorse and openness you will know right away.
Plus - if you handle this right YOUR demeanor matters. Body language, eye contact and tone are essential. By setting YOUR boundaries and NOT delivering ultimatums you are leaving the choice up to her to make with free will.
so--why not practice your word choice here.
"I would love to date you, but because of our past I can only date you exclusively when you are ready to provide (emails cell phone bill....) as proof, because of ______." Or whatever it is you need. Try on a few scenarios.
I don't agree completely with this:
Don't emasculate yourself by using the word delicate or any other "touch feely" verbiage. Firm, loving action is required and that will require a masculine approach. You don't have the power to push her either way (none of us do). Set your boundaries and let her decide freely.
You have not emasculated yourself using the word 'delicate'. It was an appropriate use here. And every relationship has a different atmosphere to it. Use what has worked before.
Letter to wife (first draft)
Dear Wife:
As much as I welcome the opportunity to begin dating you again, I'm having misgivings. You told me last Saturday that you were not dating other men. You must understand that, for me, this is a necessary precondition to our dating. I will not live in an open marriage and I will not date you while you are dating other men. These are non-negotiable, unalterable terms; above all, this is a matter of self respect.
To be clear, I'm not giving you an ultimatum; what I'm giving you is time. When you´re ready to faithfully commit to our marriage, we can date, but not before.
As I have told you, many times, what I cherish the most in our relationship is our friendship. If we are going to continue our friendship and build trust between us, we need to be honest with each other.
I have and will continue to respect your decisions in all matters, please give me the same consideration.
your loving husband
I do agree with City Girl:
I would not write a letter, text, call or e-mail anything to your W. Honestly, the conversation need not be hard or long.
Letter to wife (first draft)
???
Seems like a good conversation if your going to go that route.
I have and will continue to respect your decisions in all matters
I'd drop that part though...pretty sure that it's not entirely true. Example: PA with OM.
I have to admit that most of the letter was plagiarized from posts above.
Not a good idea, humm
Isn't having the conversation (R Talk)?
What if it escalates?
Most likely, she will deny everything. That is what she did when I found the emails. "we are just friends"
If she asks me why I doubt her, what do I tell her? The truth, that I drove by her apartment at odd times of the night to check on her. I really don't see that going well
She wants to be friends or date, and your wanting to go that route correct?
CityGirls advice is solid.
What if it escalates?
Into what?
It turns out that your fears are confirmed? Then she isn't ready.
The goal is prevent divorce, but not at any cost, if she only comes back on her terms? While that could be called unconditional love...you're lacking any for yourself.
Thanks CityGirl
I just thought the letter would give my wife time to digest the information. She has an appointment with her IC tomorrow morning. Perhaps they would discuss it.
What's wrong with leaving her the letter?
There isn't reason to "hide" behind a letter. As I said, there isn't much to process as the answer is pretty simple. Either your W wants to safeguard the R the two of you have by freely allowing transparency or she doesn't. I'm not sure what she would discuss in IC. Giving her too much time to decide allows her to create a backup plan with OM or herself. What is there to digest really?
While the word "delicate" may have been an appropriate use in the forum people generally use the same vocabulary when they talk IRL. Your W needs to respect you as a man. Women who have affairs DON'T respect their husband. Women gravitate towards masculine men. Being fearful of an escalation, labeling a talk that really is all about respect as "delicate" and sharing such important boundaries with a letter really isn't the right vibe.
I know this is scary and VERY upsetting and difficult but it's also the best time to eliminate any feminine energy you might be putting out there. You are going to have to lead this and that will begin by you respecting yourself as a man.
Just as an FYI I would say the same thing to a woman but reversed. Woman who put out strong masculine energies also do a disservice to (potential) romantic R's.
Your W has committed a MAJOR transgression. She will need to see you are strong, masculine, commanding of respect and strong enough to take the lead for a while. She in turn will *really* need to show remorse and tremendous effort. If you are not the air of a masculine man she will have to focus on "being there" for you and that will certainly hamper the HUGE mountain she has to climb.
And there should be NO goodbye's to the OW. Like I said - the decision is swift and IMMEDIATELY put in place.
Set your boundaries and go about your business. If she is not ready then you can refocus back to you and you alone. It's really all you can do.
No goodbye to the OM (not OW as posted above. There is no reason for them to EVER have ANY contact again.
Let me try putting something that hopefully won't get deleted.
As long as your wife is involved in an affair, emotional or physical, nothing you tell her will matter. If she wants to come to you to talk relationship, fine. But you going to her to talk, writing a letter, testing, it is all pursuing. My suggestion, either write a saying that you will not share her and until she stops any and all contact and becomes transparent with you, you are out of the marriage, or go completely dark.
Well ShockedOne,
Your probably right. My guess is that she's enjoying herself. The attention from OM, the new friends, the parties, but likes my company too. She wants it all.
When I asked her if she was still dating OM, she said no. She started crying and told me that this has all been so hard and that I can't hurt her again, because if I did she just doesn't think she could go through it again. My wife is a very sensitive person and I haven't always chosen my words as carefully as I should. So she keeps repeating that I have to promise not to hurt her again. I told her that It was never my intention to hurt her; that I'd be more careful; that I'd be more open and sharing with my feelings, that I will never take her for granted...
That was Saturday night. Then after our discussion, she tells me that she's on her way to visit her girlfriend, who's uncle died recently. She doesn't come home that night and she's out all weekend. This was a three day holiday in Panama and I don't think she has slept for days. What do you make of it.
I do not agree with faith or Rocked...but I will leave them up.
And unless I missed something, her not coming home was BEFORE she said she gave him up and decided she wanted to start dating you.
Your AS IF IS a delicate thing. The very thing you ASSUME you can often create. Unless you have a new reason not to trust her (if you mean by driving by you saw his car there), then trust her. If you saw his car there, keep your eyes and ears open.
dbmod, with respect, I believe you HAVE misunderstood the situation. His wife stayed out all night and all weekend AFTER she said she was no longer seeing OM. Sinclair is quite certain that she has lied to him. Again, with respect, I think your criticism of Faith and Rocked's responses stems from this misunderstanding.
I would be very interested in seeing your advice assuming Sinclair's W is lying to him. What do you suggest he does in that situation?
I'm surprised by how many comments to my thread are being deleted. Makes me wonder what's going on here.
Well, just got back from wife's place. We had our talk and it went better than I had expected. We had a good discussion, but she said that she already understood my position. She didn't try to deny anything either (for a change); she claimed to be confused (duh); she said that she was sorry (this was her first apology during this mess). It was fairly obvious that she wasn't having the fun filled weekend with OM that I had envisioned. What ever happened between them wasn't good; she was an emotional train wreck.
She still wants to work on our relationship, but she has questions for her IC tomorrow. Our biggest issue, in her words, was that I wasn't fulfilling her emotional needs. I'm sure that's true; if I hadn't been neglectful of her emotionally, the OM wouldn't have had an opportunity to fill that role.
Another small step, but still in limbo land. I guess?
I sure never expected to have this kind of drama in my life.
Good call CityGirl, the letter idea wouldn't have given me the feedback I needed.
Thanks to everyone ells for your support, even if I'll never know what some of you said.
If you're going to respond to your W, then do it in a conversation, not in a letter. You can walk away from a conversation if she begins to escalate.
I'd say something like this:
"W, I'd love to explore dating with an eye on rebuilding our marriage. However, I won't live in an open marriage. When you are willing to break off contact with OM and agree to a transparency plan, I am willing to move forward. Until then, I'm afraid I can't agree to dating."
Or something like that. It gives her an option, it's not pursuing, it still allows you to show your 180s and being the better option, and it demonstrates respect for both her and you.
SD
Ah, it seems we cross-posted.
It sounds like the conversation with your W went well, and it's a step in the right direction. You are allowing her to have her own feelings while respecting your own feelings about the situation. THAT'S detachment, and it's a great place to be.
I've got my fingers crossed for you. Just remember, this is a marathon not a sprint.
SD
Excuse me, DBMOD? You are abusing your power. The author of this thread ASKED for opinions and I gave him mine.
I am filing a complaint with the main office about your abuse of power. Just so you know, you, this site and MWD are being slandered of FaceBook due to your staunch editing of posts that NEED NOT BE edited. At least I have the balls to take it to the higher powers and not just badmouth you behind your back and not work up the proper chain of command.
Perhaps if *you* would like the privilege of keeping your "mod" position you should offer the same respect you request.
What I said was fine. What we ALL said was fine. I have a copy of my post as well as all the posts you deleted and edited today. Without the forum members there would be no forum so why are we being stifled when we ARE following the rules yet you don't seem to have to follow any rules?
Clearly our ideas and suggestions are NOT welcomed or else ALL of this editing would not take place for no reason or no explanation when one is requested numerous times. People that cheat also lie. It's reality and an essential part of reconciling a marriage to know how to deal with it. NOBODY can reconcile a marriage when there is a 3rd part. NOBODY. People in this situation MUST know how to deal with it or else everything implodes quickly.
Either start offering explanations or back off. You are not helping yourself, the long standing members of this forum OR the new people in need of assistance. Work WITH US and not against us. The forum exists because of us, not you. It's time you start encouraging US and supporting US. You are not doing a good job when you ignore requests for further information AFTER you delete and modify. And that is NOT okay.
Just an observation (and I really mean no offense whatsoever), but we don't have to post here at all.
We don't.
Excuse me, DBMOD? You are abusing your power. The author of this thread ASKED for opinions and I gave him mine.
I am filing a complaint with the main office about your abuse of power. Just so you know, you, this site and MWD are being slandered of FaceBook due to your staunch editing of posts that NEED NOT BE edited. At least I have the balls to take it to the higher powers and not just badmouth you behind your back and not work up the proper chain of command.
Perhaps if *you* would like the privilege of keeping your "mod" position you should offer the same respect you request.
What I said was fine. What we ALL said was fine. I have a copy of my post as well as all the posts you deleted and edited today. Without the forum members there would be no forum so why are we being stifled when we ARE following the rules yet you don't seem to have to follow any rules?
Clearly our ideas and suggestions are NOT welcomed or else ALL of this editing would not take place for no reason or no explanation when one is requested numerous times. People that cheat also lie. It's reality and an essential part of reconciling a marriage to know how to deal with it. NOBODY can reconcile a marriage when there is a 3rd part. NOBODY. People in this situation MUST know how to deal with it or else everything implodes quickly.
Either start offering explanations or back off. You are not helping yourself, the long standing members of this forum OR the new people in need of assistance. Work WITH US and not against us. The forum exists because of us, not you. It's time you start encouraging US and supporting US. You are not doing a good job when you ignore requests for further information AFTER you delete and modify. And that is NOT okay.
+1
Good call City. I had not thought of contacting above, but that is an excellent idea. And I agree, we don't need to post on here TH. At this point, I really don't expect to get anywhere with my questioning, just curious if I ever will.
You are correct. We don't have to post here. I can only speak for myself but there are a few situations posted here (not this thread, I was just offering an opinion when asked) that I care about... when people are deep in emotional abuse and anxiety/panic/depression to the point of needing medical intervention, well, sadly I can relate. And sometimes it's nice to have that bond with somebody who can REALLY relate to such personal trauma.
There is not a reason in the world we can't know WHY this is happening when we don't know WHAT rules we are breaking.
We have asked and we are ignored and given an answer that does not provide insight.
I promised myself I would post here for one year after my separation since so many people supported me. That is why I continue to post here.
CityGirl, we are still around. You can find us. Shockedone, kimmie lee, puppy dog tails.
I know where you are - I might join but might also just NOT and be done with all of this, lol! I have been reading "there" and it's quite good and informative and lovely.
I am sorry to have to say what I did but things don't have to be this way. Aren't we supposed to be communicating and not controlling of other people? There was no swearing, racial slurs or nastiness. He asked what we thought and I offered my opinions.
The "I don't agree but will keep it up line" really was the limit.
You are correct. We don't have to post here. I can only speak for myself but there are a few situations posted here (not this thread, I was just offering an opinion when asked) that I care about... when people are deep in emotional abuse and anxiety/panic/depression to the point of needing medical intervention, well, sadly I can relate. And sometimes it's nice to have that bond with somebody who can REALLY relate to such personal trauma.
There is not a reason in the world we can't know WHY this is happening when we don't know WHAT rules we are breaking.
We have asked and we are ignored and given an answer that does not provide insight.
Exactly. And it is people in pain like Sinclair that are suffering for it.
That is wrong on so many levels there are no words.
Sorry. I did not mean I did not care about Sinclair. Of course I do. I just meant I can relate more to some people when they have anxiety/panic and need medical intervention because I did too.
I am so sorry, Sinclair. Of course I care about your thread!
Sorry. I did not mean I did not care about Sinclair. Of course I do. I just meant I can relate more to some people when they have anxiety/panic and need medical intervention because I did too.
I am so sorry, Sinclair. Of course I care about your thread!
CG, I don't think it came across that way. It is clear from your posts that you care very deeply for Sinclair's sitch as well as all the (probably hundreds) of others you have helped since you have been here. I have watched you be of invaluable help to so many.
Sinclair, CG is someone who has a great deal of wisdom and insight in these situations. You are wise to pay attention to her advice to you.
We are here because we understand your pain and we want to help. That's the only agenda most of us have.
CityGirl
You are, obviously, a loving caring person. If you knew my wife, I'm sure your heart would poor out to her, too. My wife suffers from anxiety/panic/depression; she is also seeking medical treatment. Even though I am the LBS, the pain that I carry pales when compared to hers.
This crises has challenged me to the core, in ways I've never dreamt possible. I realize that I need to redefine my role in our marriage; I need to learn how I can be more supportive of my wife's emotional needs; and I need to be a positive force in my wife's recovery so that we can live a healthy, happy, life together.
I'm not here looking for spiteful, mean spirited, tactics to hurt my wife. If I can't be part of a positive solution to our problems, I would prefer to part company as friends and be done with it.
To that extent, your complaints against the editing are (IMO) valid. I am the one asking for advice; I want to know my options. I'm an adult, fully capable of filtering the information on my own. I don't need to be coddled. If the posts were not vulgar or offensive, they should not have been deleted or edited. Yet I didn't see the posts, so, I guess I'll never know.
Keep up the good work.
That is why I continue to post here.
It is why we all continue to post here.
Look IMO what has happend here is a reaction to some "bad behavior" on these boards.
It is not that we can't have an opinion that differs from DB or even DBmod.
We can. IMO it is the way it is expressed and the treatment of those who do not agree with the advice.
How they handle that is their decision.
THAT is the perogative of this site's management.
So if we say we care about the people here. Keep helping and try something different until it works.
If you need to have your opnion heard regardless of the motive to help then it is up to you whether or not you want to post here or go somewhere else.
I am not trying to tweak anyone's nose it is just the state of affairs right now.
Will it always be this way? Who knows.
The fact remains we all got benefit from this place and if you are done here then you are done.
If you are not then post.
And keep paying it forward.
Sorry Sinclair for the hijack.
This crises has challenged me to the core, in ways I've never dreamt possible. I realize that I need to redefine my role in our marriage; I need to learn how I can be more supportive of my wife's emotional needs; and I need to be a positive force in my wife's recovery so that we can live a healthy, happy, life together.
I'm not here looking for spiteful, mean spirited, tactics to hurt my wife. If I can't be part of a positive solution to our problems, I would prefer to part company as friends and be done with it.
Sinclair,
IMO setting boundaries after there has been infidelity is a positive solution and absolutely necessary. It is positive because it keeps your self respect intact. It is positive for your wife because it demonstrates to her that you are worth respecting and treating as a person of value. It helps to push her out of the self absorbed mindset that is present during infidelity, and towards being able to consider you and the impact on you as well.
In recovering from infidelity, it is true that meeting the WAS emotional needs will need to be part of the picture. The concern I have is that you seem so focused on your own failings and HER needs, that you could easily allow her to walk all over you and not even realize it is happening!
When we are challenged to the core in a crisis like this, we can feel so desperate to get our spouse back that we don't see some of the reality for what it is. In the long run, that will only harm both you and your W more.
It is important to realize that infidelity has an addictive quality to it. No matter how sincere and remorseful your W may be now, she may continue to be drawn back to OM. Yes she is in pain, but that does not change the fact that you have to have your eyes wide open. You need to be firm, decisive and immovable on your boundaries.
I would hate to see you hurt again, and worse, because you are so focused on her pain and your failings that you go too soft and easy on her. That wouldn't be good for either of you.
My wife came by the house this morning. We talked for over an hour. She appeared to be trying to justify her decision to leave me. Over and over, she keeps reaching back into our past to find events that confirm her decision to leave. I had said something 20 years ago that she's still carrying around with her.
She's testing me, isn't she? I managed to stay calm and confident; I was a good listener; I gave her my undivided attention; I addressed her concerns with understanding; I acknowledged my own shortcomings and confirmed my commitment to working on our relationship. In essence, I've been following the DB guild-lines (I hope). It wasn't all bad: she managed to admit that I do have some very good qualities as well.
I told her to take her time. In truth, there isn't much more that can be said. She needs to notice the changes in me and that will take time. My instincts are to lay low and work on myself. I have several appointments with Spanish tutors today and I found a class in Salsa dancing that I was considering for this evening (something I was planning before all the R talk). Does anybody think it's inappropriate?
Thank you for your advice, Rocked
Your view appears to be the consensus. I happen to agree with you and the boundaries have been set. She already understood my boundaries, however, even before I stated them. The question is will she respect my boundaries? If not, I need to be prepared to move on.
Setting the boundaries was the easy part.
My H went back to the past too in MC to justify things, and the truth is, I did some pretty yucky stuff...as did he. I couldn't change those things, but I made it my goal to remove every possible *current* reason that he could use as an excuse. He'd never told me how he felt about things (I had severe social anxiety and would avoid gatherings where I didn't know people...he said it was okay, but secretly resented it...plus other stuff he said he was fine with but really wasn't), so once he did, I set out to fix every valid issue he had with me.
He'd said that I could, "never change," so I proved him wrong.
At one point in MC though after he'd brought up yet another thing I'd done wrong in the past, I said, "I sincerely regret choices I made in the past, but there's no way I can change it. What I can and am willing to do is make better choices from this day forward." Once he recommitted and we started dealing with his own past choices, he *really* understood that.
I agree with your instincts, "to lay low and work on [yourself]." GAL was crucial to the restoration of my M, not only because my H saw that I could and would be fine on my own, but because it improved my PMA and ability to cope tremendously. In the midst of the craziness, I found myself having fun and able to detach from my sitch. It allowed me to act with integrity and respect for both me and my H as I DB'd. I stopped REACTING out of fear and made choices that were good for me and my M.
Ultimately, though I preferred to stay with and work on my M with H, I KNEW I'd be okay if that didn't happen. There's a real freedom in that, and it's the reason why, now that we've been reconciled for 4 years, I'm willing to speak up and talk about hard things rather than hold on to them and be passive aggressive like I was pre-bomb. My H also speaks up when he needs something instead of holding on to it and becoming resentful like he did pre-bomb. Of course, he's also clear I will not travel down that path again. I expect him to speak up instead of using an EA as a substitute for communication with me.
I say go and salsa dance. Exercise releases endorphins, and you'll get to go and be "normal" for a few hours. Don't be surprised if you find yourself laughing or having fun. It's okay to do that. More of that, less of sitting and meditating on how yucky your sitch is.
SD
It is positive because it keeps your self respect intact.
Boundaries are tools to protect you. IMO placing faith in them for this
It is positive for your wife because it demonstrates to her that you are worth respecting and treating as a person of value. It helps to push her out of the self absorbed mindset that is present during infidelity, and towards being able to consider you and the impact on you as well.
Can sometimes be misplaced faith.
Because she will or she won't.
In the end your self respect is resident in you.
And IS defined by YOUR actions and choices.
When we come here we don't see that right away. It is a process to get there.
So I agree with Rocked in the sense that you must use these tools for yourself.
When you say this
I'm not here looking for spiteful, mean spirited, tactics to hurt my wife. If I can't be part of a positive solution to our problems, I would prefer to part company as friends and be done with it.
It speaks to who you are. Your values and your integrity. You can never go wrong when you do that because it is not dependent on the action or reaction of another person.
All the boundaries in the world will not restore that in yourself.
So choose your boundaries wisely and for YOU. And make sure you are prepared to make consequences for them and that they align with YOUR goals.
In the end your self respect is resident in you.
Umm yeah, but I have yet to meet a person with healthy self-esteem that doesn't have healthy boundaries.
And I've seen a lot of marriages get into trouble because both spouses didn't have healthy boundaries.
And I've seen a lot of marriages get into trouble because both spouses didn't have healthy boundaries.
Time makes a good point Sinclair and one I should clarify.
I am not condoning bad behavior. What I am saying is that your boundaries are for you. To protect you.
Not to control someone's behavior or have an expectation that it will do anything but protect you from the bad behavior.
I am also saying that what your W chooses to do despite your boundary should not have a bearing on your self respect.
For instance she can choose to ignore your boundary. Does that mean she doesn't respect you? Maybe. Maybe she feels like she's being controled? Maybe because it's Tuesday.
If anyone here can give you the answer to that then have them give you the winning lottery numbers too.
Don't tie your W's choices to YOUR self respect.
The operative word is healthy. Healthy for you.
You appear to be giving me similar advice to CDBear, but the way you phrase it (without the hate and anger in your voice) your point is made and feels heartfelt. dbmod seems to have missed the part where my wife didn't return to her apartment all night.
Sinclair, I just want you to know that I personally KNOW CD Bear off the boards and he is one of the greatest guys you will ever meet. I believe his "tone" was more of a frustration with the "One who rules" the boards right now. I can assure you, he has NO anger or hate towards you or your W. He asked me to let you know this, because well, HE CAN'T post anymore.
He apologized to you and realizes that his approach was harsh. My opinion, without him I personally would not be where I am today. He personally took out the time to HELP me get where I am today and he only wished to try and pay forward to you as well. He could be considered the "Poster Boy of Detachment".
Just hope you don't stay offended at his comments, because that was not his intent at all.
I'm surprised by how many comments to my thread are being deleted. Makes me wonder what's going on here.
Well, just got back from wife's place. We had our talk and it went better than I had expected. We had a good discussion, but she said that she already understood my position. She didn't try to deny anything either (for a change); she claimed to be confused (duh); she said that she was sorry (this was her first apology during this mess). It was fairly obvious that she wasn't having the fun filled weekend with OM that I had envisioned. What ever happened between them wasn't good; she was an emotional train wreck.
She still wants to work on our relationship, but she has questions for her IC tomorrow. Our biggest issue, in her words, was that I wasn't fulfilling her emotional needs. I'm sure that's true; if I hadn't been neglectful of her emotionally, the OM wouldn't have had an opportunity to fill that role.
Another small step, but still in limbo land. I guess?
I sure never expected to have this kind of drama in my life.
Good call CityGirl, the letter idea wouldn't have given me the feedback I needed.
Thanks to everyone ells for your support, even if I'll never know what some of you said.
When you say the boundaries have been set, HOW did you set them?
The most important thing is what you said above--you weren't meeting her needs, and the affair met some of it. And you seem to have evidence the weekend WAS NOT a continuation of the affair. You have evidence that it's YOU she wants to continue with.
The big deal here is NOT about the boundary, it's about your couple relationship. How you interact with her.
What needs does she need you to do a better job of meeting: (eg, time, fun, affection (includes compliments), sex).
This is the REAL man-up: fulfilling the needs of the person you love.