Hello, been mostly lurking.. not sure where to post since the forum was shut down, and then prematurely reposted in Infidelity which is now a very dead forum
.
Husband is now overseas with OW.
He has started work there, and presumably lives with OW (I have no phone number or address. Admittedly haven't asked. Why would I?).
He's sent one or two emails in the last fews months regarding his job searches, and asking me for news of our daughter, 5months old.
I would go completely dark on him, but for the baby.
I need to be able to talk to him about financials, and perhaps give him updates on baby.
What kind of tone should my emails take?
Forgot to mention, WH says he would like to come to see the baby in May next year, around her first birthday.
I am getting a life, am practicing gratitude all the time, and I am much more in control of my feelings - watch them come and go rather than be consumed by them.
Having said that I am a slow mover when it comes to making plans for my future, still lack self-esteem (but I am learning to love and be proud of myself) and make decisions.
I am reading a lot of self help books - currently Feel The Fear and Do it Anyway, and Co-Dependent No More just arrived today, and I am starting to "get it". I am getting that I create my own happiness, despite or in spite of what WH has "done".
I can also totally now see why he left me....
I was living my life in fear and paralysed, unable to make decisions, move forward and own my life.
When we decided to move back to my country, it was because we were unable to make it work and feel confident about our life in Europe. He felt he was carrying all the weight. He didn't want to do that anymore, esp with a baby on the way.
I know I let "us" down.
Then he let me down by running off with OW while I was back in my country waiting for him to arrive.
Friends, I still love my husband. But I don't know if it's the husband I used to know, or what... I was the WORST DBer in the history of the world - lashing out in anger, desperate, crying, pleading, begging for 7 months while I was pregnant and just after the birth.
I sabotaged my opportunity to save us. Because there was a window, when he first arrived and dropped the bomb and was still confused.
He needed me to be strong, to lead. And I didn't.
So, what is it now? 11 months later, here I am... beautiful baby, on the other side of the world, I am healing, I am doing really well and never cry anymore, but I think of him all the time still. But I am making plans for me and my daughter that don't include WH.
I want to save my M, though I know the old one is very dead.
So I guess I want a new one, preferably - oh yes, preferably - with WH. But if someone else comes along meanwhile, and if WH is still out of the picture, who knows, I might not say No.
I have some power..and this is where I could do with some support... I have our daughter, obviously, 100% of the time. WH wants news. He needs me.
Many would say WH does not deserve his daughter, considering, but all the experts and common sense tells me that a child is better off with some contact rather than none...
I want to show WH what he is missing out on...
I know he wants to have a relationship with her, but today he does NOT want one with me...
I need to write back to WH and again in my sitch I could go 2 ways...
1. be upbeat, charming, lead etc
2. business like.
I know 'trad' Dbing advice would be to try and win him back by being the better option...
and the vets would be more hardlined...
But what's the point of not showing the best me?
Doesn't that just project that I am still angry?
Doesn't that project that I am still 'stuck'?
Isn't the best revenge to show yourself having a great life?
I really could do with some support as to how to write back to my WH in these initial stages...until I get into a groove and it comes naturally...
He's been overseas and living with OW now for 2 + months...
He's saying he wants to come back and see our daughter in May 2011.....
I know I wont see him before then...
This gives me time to keep detaching and keep GALing !
Hi Piano,
You are in a good 'space'. And I'll bet you already know what to do.
What advice would you give yourself? (btw--this is how I DB my own situation and it works. I give others advice, look at my own situation and go....'doh'! I think I need to do.... this--whatever it is).
Take a stab at it.
sg
...I know I let "us" down.
Then he let me down by running off with OW while I was back in my country waiting for him to arrive.
Friends, I still love my husband. But I don't know if it's the husband I used to know, or what... I was the WORST DBer in the history of the world - lashing out in anger, desperate, crying, pleading, begging for 7 months while I was pregnant and just after the birth.
You're not going to get a 2x4 from me on this except for the fact that you take all the blame for a choice he decided to make.
No one forced him to leave, no one forced him to shack up with another woman, no one forced him to marry you and get you pregnant and then leave you without a husband and your baby without a father.
He made those decisions and you need to allow him to take responsibility for those choices and actions.
You want to apologize for being angry, sad, desperate, crying, begging, pleading, begging while being pregnant and I'm going to be someone who is going to tell you that you don't need to apologize.
When a woman is pregnant (and even afterwards), there are so many changes happening in her body, a lot of them hormonal - YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THIS PROCESS.
Think of this way,
when you first found out you were pregnant,
didn't you get emotional just at the news and idea of being pregnant? Heck that was just at the beginning.
So you body changes a lot, different hormones are being produced to get the body ready, the required growing environment ready for the baby to live and grow in for the next several months. Getting emotional and having mood swings is extremely commonplace, expecting everything to be normal as it was prior to getting pregnant is just silly. You are just bound to feel many different emotions and feelings during this change process.
The changes are normal and don't define you as a person, my goodness Piano, you make it sound like you should be put in prison for behaving like a pregnant woman!
You went through ups and downs, maybe you felt insecure, scared, had anxiety, some days you were happy and glowing, other days you were miserable and crying. Some days maybe you felt overweight and unattractive to your spouse. Some days you worried about the health of your baby, your health, how labor would be, worrying about every doctor's visit and exam and hoping to hear good news during each visit to the doctor.
All normal.
What wasn't normal unfortunately was your husband's response. He abandoned you at a point in your life when you were most vulnerable: when you were pregnant. He got you pregnant and then he hooked up with another woman, and leaves you. He gives you flimsy excuses and explanations, lots of pressure this, and we can't make it living in this country that, and this is too much for me to do, I feel like I'm doing this all by myself. Plain and simple, the guy was afraid of being an adult, afraid of adult responsibilities. Being married to you and having a kid brought reality crashing to his door. He wasn't the first guy to ever react like this and unfortunately he won't be the last.
Stop taking this on as it being your fault entirely.
It isn't your fault.
I personally would never blame a pregnant woman for acting like a pregnant woman, not now or ever. When I do bust people, its usually for not acting like an adult.
You may have both (you and your husband) contributed to issues in your marriage before you got pregnant and you have joint responsibility in that, but no one forced him to marry you, to get you pregnant, to cheat on you, to abandon you and move far away from you. He's a big boy, he can assume responsibility for his actions.
You have bigger fish to fry now,
you have to make sure that you and your baby have a good life, safe place to live, some sort of income to support you both, a good environment for the baby to grow in and a good environment for you to heal yourself and move on with your life.
I know you still want your husband but for now, continue focusing on you and your baby and make a good life for the both of you, come back here for support, updates but most importantly take care of yourself and that baby.
Make sure you have a good day today.
Thanks so much robx for your reply. You could have been harder on me, but you're right, I am already too hard on myself. I have to remind myself to give myself a break!
Anyhoo....
To now....
How should I be with him in our email correspondence?
This is the email I received form him a week ago:
Hi (wife)
I have been wanting to write to you for a while now, but I have been taken into the turmoil of my new job and time seems to have gone in a flash.
I have been thinking about you and (baby) and I hope dearly that you are both well, right in warmth of the (country) spring.
I suppose I needed also a bit of time, breathing space.
I miss having news about the little (baby). She must have changed and grown already so much ... 5 months-old now.
How is she?
I wrote to her but I kept the letter.
I am going to be paid my October salary (around 2,800 euros), and I'll be able to send you some money at last.
I am sorry I didn't send you money before but I got paid 1,197 euros for September and I just had enough to get by until now.
I am quite disappointed by the job at (company). The job is very demanding, (boss) appears to be even more tyrannical and mad than before, and I can't see my prospects in terms of salary increase and opportunities getting any better at (company) in the future. I regret nothing happened with (other company) in September but I just couldn't afford waiting and risking to be jobless for too long.
This contract with (company) is going to make me very busy until the end of production of the film, in May next year, and I hope I'll then be able to jump ship to a better job. I then also want to come to (your country), hopefully in time for (baby's) 1st birthday.
I'll let you know when I have done the money transfer to your account.
Take care,
H
Hi Piano,
you are sounding better - good stuff, I like to hear that :-)
As for the email,
don't respond,
he will checking his email daily after sending that email,
he will be looking for a response from you,
and there won't be one,
he'll send another email after that asking if you had rec'd the first email, then we can worry about responses.
So to recap....
do nothing for now ;-)
Continue concentrating on you and the baby.
His email speaks nothing to me,
it's all about him, how hard life is,
how hard is job is, trying to come with excuses as to why he hasn't been contacting you regularly and inquiring regularly about his daughter, I can understand phone calls being expensive but emails?
C'mon, he can do better than "being taken into the turmoil of new job", hard to feel bad for someone who chose that life and that job, don't get sucked into that trap.
Have a good day ;-)
Because it's about kids and finances, I have to reply right?
I have been all pursuit up until now. Not sure how to balance this act!
Oops, we were typing at the same time and I missed your response.
Yeah, I'd be happy to ignore this email.
They've all been about HIM for the last 10 months.. They all follow the same script. His job searches and then 'hoping' we are well.
Of course what he fails to mention is his life with OW.
I don't even have his address (although I know it is with her & I know where she lives) , nor a phone number for him. I haven't asked.
I am going to have a great day!
I love my baby and spring is here!!
You don't have to reply to anything from him.
That email of his was completely self-serving and just a set-up so that you won't expect much money from him.
And as far as having a kid, he didn't care enough to stay and be a father and husband and here he is acting all concerned and "missing" the baby....uh-huh.
Don't settle for such teeny little crumbs, or use the baby as an excuse to reply to his ridiculous emails.
Yes, that is an adequate description, Kimmee Lee.
I suppose in the long run, if he wants to be part of our child's life, I have to find a way to communicate effectively with him.
Also if I want his money, it's best we can work out an arrangement just the two of us, because now that he's overseas the child support agency will have trouble enforcing anything.
I can ignore this email.
and then with the next learn to communicate in a way that gets across what I require from him but that protects me emotionally.
I am a lot closer to nailing this than before.
still have work to do.
Surprise surprise Piano.. did I call that a few months ago or did I call that?
If you want my opinion i would tell him outright not to bother coming home and that no one wants to see him...
Hey P...
I echo Robx and Kimmie Lee!
Your WH AND mine are romantics who love to hear their own misery.
Someday they'll be hit with the reality stick.
Hi Piano! I am so glad to see that you have an active thread again.
Just again repeating that I think your WH is immature about what a real marriage entails. You can take your sweet time replying to his emails. Also, he is self centered right now and I was ticked off when I read his email outlining the hardships he is enduring with his job...
Pretty much, this is my take on our WHs now that I am divorced:
During their relationship with the OWs, they are not receptive to us. We shouldn't be bending over backwards to try too hard. We don't need to be nasty; we just carry on with our lives, and interact in a distant/businesslike way when we have to communicate with them.
Once they are done with their OW fantasy/journey, we may see them reaching out.
That is why GAL is so important and detaching. (I know you realize this, but it is so obvious to me now)
I think it is normal to berate (sp?) ourselves for our mistakes in the marriage but you know what? They made mistakes, too, and if both people were mature, we would discuss the issues and work on them together, right?
Honestly!
The nerve he has to not see his daughter until she turns 1!!!! This makes me sooo mad!
So update us about your feelings and your GAL progress. It is tough to GAL too much while we have babies, but reflecting on how to improve relationships is part of GAL. Good job doing that! I may need to look into one of the books you are reading
Right, Newmama. My H did not want to bring up his issues and work on them, so he replaced me. I don't think he realises how hard his 'plan' is going to be.
Thesedays I am feeling more and more normal which means I am putting on the weight I lost when in distress. I have started exersising again, I am quite social, I am working on gratitude, I am very detatched unless I hear from WH, and I am mostly happy. When I am not happy, it's because I am reminded of my loss or I am worried about the future. So I try to stay in the present. This is very hard when I am tired or the baby is unsettled - then my "now" reminds me of what WH has left me to deal with alone and I could just murder him.
I am going to get my ducks lined up..and am meeting with the child support agency to talk through some practicals.
I am reading, yes, and these forums help keep me on track. So glad you found me again!
I probably should have posted in MLC...
Its never too late.......
Hi Piano,
I love to hear that you are 'trying to stay in the present'. You seem to know how key that is for happiness. Btw--have you read Michele's latest blog....you both seem to realize that not being in the 'present' is a great indicator of how your own emotional health is going.
So....'how' do you go about bringing yourself back to the now....others might really learn from you on that.
How are your interactions with him going?
Keep up the good attitude!
I like your living in the present stuff, too. So real.
It's hard not to get nostalgic and live in the past. Or live in the future and get worried. It's really hard!
Hey G! Good to hear ya again. I am doing less and less nostalgia...and more worried about the future which, I think at least is positive sometimes because it gives you an idea of what you need to work on. ie. a PLAN. eg. need to work out the legals so I can move forward.
Lancesijan..thanks for popping in from MLC. There's a lot of quaility posting over there which I think could benefit all of us, especially the newbies. I know that some has disputed MLC and the whole MLC approach, but I see it as the same thing couched in different language. I don't want to have too many threads going but the way I see it, more counsel is good counsel.
dbmod, if only you knew I am the worst DBer in the world. I have been here 10 or 11 months now. I have been more or less a mess until a few months ago. "Staying in the present" takes enormous self control in the beginning.. You have to literally remind yourself every minute to focus on what is happening now (even if it is just a breeze you can feel on your skin, the sounds of the room, etc). Gradually without you knowing it becomes second nature. Another thing that helped me was telling myself I had already been betrayal, desperate, anguished once, why relive it over and over?!
You are NOT the worst
Piano, wow, you are so wise to stay in the present and try to focus on small goals for you that have nothing to do with your HW. Staying in the present is super hard but it was the secret to helping me keep my sanity while I was hopeful and waiting for exH to come back. If I dwelled on the past, it brought heartache and guilt. If I focused on the future, it can make me stressed about my lack of control over the situation.
Also, focusing too much on the future when you don't know what will come of the marriage is mind boggling because there are too many scenarios! Like A) if we are back together B) if we are divorced C) if we are still in the same place as now D)if I decide to move
E)if I start dating.....
it's like one of those problems where you find all the possible combinations of 4 numbers
1234
1243
1324
1342
1423
1432
2341
2143
2431
2413 etc etc!!!!
Piano,
You asked me to stop by and so here I am
. You seem to be getting some very good advice and I would suggest that you stay the course i.e. work on you, focus on you, stay in the present, etc.
I do not think I have much more to add but I will try.
First, I noticed that you keep saying that you are the worse DBer ever. FTR, I have to believe that honor belongs to me
. Seriously though, IMO, the fact that you continue to focus on what YOU perceive as YOUR shortcomings is something that I think you need to look at. Why do you continue to do this?
I suspect that deep down inside you are still blaming yourself for the demise of the M. And although I am a big believer in owning your piece of it, taking full responsibility for HIS actions is a sign of codependency.
Look, you were pregnant and your H left. In my book that make him a f*cking coward. Sorry to be so blunt. As Robx pointed out, while you were pregnant your emotions and hormones were all over the place. So anything you said or did does not count.
You did not put a gun to your H's head and tell him to leave. He freaked out for reason that honestly only he knows. The fact that he left falls on his shoulders not yours. You tried to DB and although you think you did not do a good job, IMO, you did. Why?
Cause your still here trying to work on you, your still here trying to figure out how to save your M. So my hats off to you. I actually think you are one hell of a dber. Many will fall short in the first few months.
So Piano, how about you drop the "I'm not a good dber" stuff and keep focusing on what you need to focus on for YOU and YOUR daughter. As for you H, the day will come when he may wake up and realize the consequences of his actions. So, when he does, what will he find? Who will Piano be when you does come around?
My prayer is that when he does come around, what he will find is a very strong, smart, loving, sexy women who has a beautiful daughter and has become so confident in her abilities that she just may intimidate him. Why intimidate him?
Cause she finally realized that SHE DECIDES what is best for her and her D.
Keep focused forward. Plan what you need to plan. Let him go. Cut off all contact. IF he wants to see his little girl, well then he can make the arrangements to come visit her.
You and your daughter are worth more than an email!
I know that....question is...do YOU.
God Bless,
Eric
Eric, thanks for taking the time!
Seriously though, IMO, the fact that you continue to focus on what YOU perceive as YOUR shortcomings is something that I think you need to look at. Why do you continue to do this?
I think this is a good question.
I do feel guilty.
I have a self esteem problem,
And probably a codependency one.
As for you H, the day will come when he may wake up and realize the consequences of his actions. So, when he does, what will he find? Who will Piano be when you does come around?
She will be strong. Unphased. A great mother. In control of her temper. She will not be a good listener, and not have to prove a point. She will feel the fear and do it anyway.
Some of the things I am aiming for.
Keep focused forward. Plan what you need to plan. Let him go. Cut off all contact. IF he wants to see his little girl, well then he can make the arrangements to come visit her.
You and your daughter are worth more than an email!
I am surprised you agree with cutting him off. I am so scared my daughter will blame me one day for not sending news to him about her when he asked. Don't I have to be careful I am not being vindictive? When does compassion enter into it?
Piano-
I understand how you feel about your daughter. I am not in a completely similar situation, but I have just started no contact. He did not contact me yesterday to make plans for when he would see his son today. So i finally contacted him first. And then i felt bad that i did that. Also, it is going to be so hard for me when he is with my son not to have contact. I want to know what is going on. I want to know the moments in my son's life that i am missing out on.
Piano
Is YOU job to fix or better yet, push the R between your D and her father? I believe not. Is it normal for you, a mother, to want that R to blossom? Yep. I believe that this is your first child so I can only imagine how difficult this is for you. My heart goes out to you.
Piano, when my first son was born (I have 3 kids), I was 23 and ill equipped to deal with fatherhood (FTR, my dad left 20 bucks on the table when I was born - I have never laid eyes on the man). So being ill equiped I ran. Ran into a deep depression and drugs. 1 year later I was clean and began to form a R with my oldest. Needless to say we have a working R now. However, everything my W did to try and push my son towards me FAILED. I was not ready and it took a year for me to become ready.
Some of the actions you may want to take will be percieved as pushing to your husband. Others will appear controlling to him. Bottom line is that your H HAS to make the effort - not you. I am not saying that you should keep your D away from his dad- no. However I am saying that your H MUST pursue forming and growing that R.
IF you feel very strongly about trying to ensure that YOU can look into your daughters eyes and say that you did everything you could to keep her dad in her life then I suggest that you do write him and send him pictures of his D. Another option would be to set up a web page with pictures of your D and send him the link so that he can view them. You can tell him that you will update the page as often as you can. This will eliminate the need for him to speak to you. I would also remind him for the last time that he should make an effort to see his daughter with some degree of frequency. Then Piano - let go. And I mean really let his as* go!
I can tell you not to BUT your going to anyway. So instead I'll tell you this...be guilty for YOUR role in the breakup BUT DO NOT take the blame for all of this. You own your piece your H owns his it is that simple.
You should NOT feel guilty about..
You Daughter
The fact that your batchit crazy as*hole H left for another country
Being YOU
For any of your past mistakes. We all make them.
For any DB mishaps you have made. FTR, every sitch is different and none of this comes easy in the "beginning" with beginning being defined as the first 5 years of dbing.
I have a self esteem problem,
Okay many people will say this. I would ask that you dig a little deeper and answer WHY.
Do u think your not smart enough? If so, smart enough for WHO?
Do you think your not pretty enough? If so, the pretty enough for WHO and why would you feel this way?
Do you think your not "deep" enough? If so, define deep?
Do you feel your unlovable? Then why and also define what loves means to you.
Do you think your not daring enough?
I can go on and on Piano BUT my point is that once YOU really get to know WHO YOU ARE - none of what anyone else feels or projects towards you will matter. Let me give you an example:
I was always concerned that people did not like my emotional side. So I hid it and really lived my life wearing various masks. In short, no one ever really knew me. As I have become comfortable in my own skin, I no longer wear the mask and finally got to a place where I can embrace my emotional side. And for those who do not like it or try to make ME feel bad for being the way that I am. To those I say....go f*ck yourself. Love me for who I am and the way that I am.
Piano - learn to love YOURSELF. No one should need to change you. Not friends, not your H and not another man! Learn to accept that you are wonderful just the way you are. Feel it. Embrace all of you, your goodness, your heart, your passion - fu*k even some of your qwirks. Embrace it all Piano. Know this, there will come a time that a TRUE man will come knocking cause he will see and LOVE the real YOU just the way you are. That man could be YOUR H. Funny thing ...YOU DECIDE if ya want "him" whoever the hell him ends up being.
And probably a codependency one
Your codependancy is driving your self esteem. Please pick up code pendant no more. A great book that can be used with the DB books, which I trust you have read.
So a quick lesson on how you can easily learn to beat the codependancy issues....learn ONE important word...
NO
Yep, learn to say no. No I do not feel like doing that. No I am not going to send John Smith a christmnas card cause he will never send me one back. No I am NO longer going to allow my H to control what I do in my life.
Just say No Piano.
God Bless,
Eric
Piano,
It is ok to encourage your H to have this relationship with your daughter. These are emotional things to navigate for the both of you. Many men who are not encouraged are 'outta site, outta mind'....encouraging and keeping the doors open....letting him feel welcome without laying on the guilt is good for their relationship....and that is the best thing for your daughter....and for you.
Nurture the relationship, don't hinder it.
Hey, I was totally going to recommend that you let your H see an FB page! You can have one in your daughter's name or something if you dont' want him to have access to yours. Glad to see someone else had a similar thought. (aka Eric)
I was thinking about your dilemma of whether you should try to show your daughter that you never blocked her dad from her and tried to foster the relationship.I will say that even if he was still in the country and having shared visits, you would have to deal with him. Pretty much, he is her parent and as long as you think he is safe enough for her to be around, then you kind of have to put up with him and let him have access to her.
Be careful of "parental alienation." (not that you are doing that but blocking him from her life might be interpreted as that)
Just popping in quickly.
I already have one child, and don't want to treat my H like another. He only has to do a quick Google search to see a myriad of ways to interact long distance with a child (all inadequate, granted, but they're there for what they are worth). I don't think I will EVER respect H again unless he motivates himself to do this on his own. Yes I have to not block him, but updating a wesbite dedicated to my child already is very proactive and a chore as I would not do it under normal circumstances.
What does he have to get off his lazy butt to do?
Nothing.
Piano,
Separate what YOUR H wants from what YOU want.
but updating a wesbite dedicated to my child already is very proactive and a chore as I would not do it under normal circumstances
I have had to do a lot of things from my kids that I think are "chores". My job as a parent is to give them the best life I can. Regardless of how I feel about my W. She is there mother and should be a part of my kids lives. So if it cost me a little more time BUT puts a smile on my kids face. It is worth it.
The man that I have become will not allow my anger to dictate my life or my choices.
I don't think I will EVER respect H again unless he motivates himself to do this on his own.
Your ability to respect him has nothing to do with YOUR childs need to have her father in her life IF her father chooses to be.
Let go of the anger Piano and maybe things will look a little differnt. Oh, and FTR, you do have EVERY right to be pissed the f*ck off. Just make sure your daughter does not reap the fall out of this anger. Use it to protect YOU emotionally not to punish him or anyone else.
Just sayin...
God Bless,
Eric
Hey P,
Lots of interesting thoughts on here.
Agree with you-- your WH could do a plethora of things to grow up. Yup! So could mine, ay yi yi!
A FB page/website for bub may not be your thing, but I kinda like it for me, actually...
I met with my lawyer today to hammer out some things. I have all these grand ideas for my divorce ("He will never introduce her to girlfriends without my permission" and "We will live, hopefully, far apart, and he will see her once a year" etc etc.) And the lawyer keeps reminding me that the courts are pretty balanced and that I need to make my divorce enforceable. (I could throw some things in there that are hard to enforce, but then if SBTXH breaks them or if he takes me to court to contest... I won't really win!)
All this to say... my advice is to give him access to bub. If you're emailing him back, maybe cc some other family members to make it less personal. I don't know.
We have to do the hardest freaking thing-- act like things are "okay" with these men we love who have hurt us so deeply. But they can know it's not "okay" by us just staying extremely impersonal.
Someday hopefully our daughters will understand our sacrifice.
Gatsby, it's so good to have you back. I think our little girls will understand what we went through. When the time comes, we will talk about it. When they are older.
I agree, some interesting new voices here... I have been popping my head over to MLC and I really like the attitude there. Some deep thinkers at work.
Newmama - parental alienation is something I would never want to happen to my baby. She will want to know her father, she will love in in spite of what he did to us. It's nature. I've been there. My Dad left us, and I love him and need him. He's helping me through my own sitch now. Both parents are needed.
Eric, your posts are awesome and give me so much to think about, and comfort too. Thank you.
Yes, I've read the DB books (been here 10 months, alas) and Codependent No More and Boundaries are what I'm reading at the moment. Loving the Boundaries book.
I cannot believe your own Dad left 20 bucks on the table - that's about as inadequate as it gets. You were only 23 when your first child was born? Well, 23 is so young... you had an excuse, and you are making up for it.
My H is 40. He has a lot of work to do. He is trying to do better that his own father. I guess that's how it often starts out...
Anyway, thankyou for reminding me that it is my H's job to nurture the relationship. I will open doors, but only in so much that it doesn't hurt me. To begin with, I might only open it up a crack, then a bit more as I get stronger.
NO is an underrated word. We're always being told to say YES to things, but that leaves us so often running on empty.
I'm not adverse to the FB idea. Are there other sites out there that are less well known but do a similar thing? Wouldn't mind shopping around.
Piano,
I think our little girls will understand what we went through. When the time comes, we will talk about it. When they are older.
Remember this….what YOU do NOW will impact YOUR future.
My Dad left us, and I love him and need him. He's helping me through my own sitch now.
Proof of what I said up there ^^^^
Both parents are needed.[./quote]
Yep – just remember who YOU can control and SPEND no time trying to control someone who right now does not want to be controlled.
[quote] give me so much to think about, and comfort too. Thank you.
Your welcome….remember to pay it forward.
Codependent No More are what I'm reading at the moment.
Excellent read!
I cannot believe your own Dad left 20 bucks on the table - that's about as inadequate as it gets.
In all things in life it is how WE deal with it that matters. I could CHOOSE to be a victim OR CHOOSE not to – either way…cool thing is that it is MY CHOICE.
You were only 23 when your first child was born? Well, 23 is so young... you had an excuse, and you are making up for it.
Yes you are right, 23 is young. “excuse”…Yes I lived my life that way for a long time….very long. Matter of fact it is one of the reason that my M went down the chitter (MLC craziness aside). Please remember one thing…”excuses”, “justification”, “reasons”, etc. ALL can be used to keep us from looking inside and accepting what is. Piano, take this time that you have and learn YOU and I mean really learn you (even those crappy parts that we all have). Try as best as you can to never give yourself and “Out” from becoming what you have always wanted to be. Let me give you an example: I can sit here and tell you that W is banging her supervisor and that by viture of HER ACTIONS I am justified in throwing her as* out. I could also sit herd and play the victim and say to myself “whoa is me”. Which one aligns with who I have become? Neither. I have said before that I am just living my life the best way I can. My choices are NOW made from a place of peace, love and compassion with the goal to continue to become the best man I can be. Not for HER – nope – for ME and my kids. So, whatever you do, file, try to reconcile, stand, choose not to stand – MAKE SURE that you are doing what YOU feel keeps you true to who YOU really are. When you do this…..that “internal happiness” will be felt like never before. Why? Cause you will have found yourself!
My H is 40. He has a lot of work to do. He is trying to do better that his own father. I guess that's how it often starts out...
I have often heard that people cannot change. I totally disagree. Having said this, YOUR H may come around on of these days. You though Piano should be busy living your life, enjoying it, having fun, enjoying the little bundle of joy that will grow up faster than you can imagine. Never give up on your H as a “person” or “human being” – At the same time, do not stop and wait. Cool thing about all of this…..is that one day you will really understand that everything, your life, your M..everything in your life is a CHOICE that you make.
I will open doors, but only in so much that it doesn't hurt me.
Very good move! AKA….detach lovingly. YOUR D will need your emotional health, which if impacted by YOUR H’s actions are not good for you or her.
To begin with, I might only open it up a crack, then a bit more as I get stronger.
Go at a pace that YOU feel comfortable with. F*ck how your H feels right now. Make this about YOU FIRST.
God Bless,
Eric
Thanks again Eric. You leave me again with plenty to think about.
I am going to protect myself so I can be the rock for my D.
I am a slow learner. This is all new to me. Boundaries, who I AM, etc, etc.
I know I have values, but they seem theoretical and not so easy to apply to my own sitch.
I am quite overwhelmed and don't know where to start.
Well, not true. I know to protect myself and enjoy my baby,
but dealing with H is just really hard.
I could go so many ways.
The two major routes are:
1. cut him off
2. work with him.
#1 seems vindictive
#2 seems right.
Yet you need boundaries in place in order to do # 2 "safely".
I have a nagging question tonight...
When H dropped the bomb I was in total shock. Didn't see it coming. Sure, I can see some signs now, but he never said a thing. All actions were pointing towards building our future - we were making a baby - not tearing it down.
If my H was unhappy for some time, unhappy enough to stray, why didn't he feel he could talk to me?
What was it about me that stopped him from opening his mouth and saying, "Piano, I am not happy...."?
How far do I need to go searching for this answer?
Maybe not too far. I know I often talked over him, I dominated conversation. I was a planner, he lived by the day - maybe he thought I was 'controlling' or didn't leave him the space to be him.
I am prepared to own this.
But then what about the baby stuff?
We find out I am pregnant after treatment, two weeks later I relocate to the other side of the world to set up our lives here, and two weeks after that he starts an A with our family friend and doesn't tell her until the 3rd f*** that I am pregnant. 3 months later he arrives here for Xmas, and drops bomb. ILYBINILWY, "I never want to live with you again", "I have no hope for us", "I'm in love", "I have a right to be happy too". etc etc.
Was it the pregnancy news that pushed him over the edge? That gave him a nudge? Was it the final step for him?
He must have felt so trapped, and the A seemed like the best escape route.
Still to this day my H says "it is not the time nor the place" to discuss what happened to us.
But now I am rambling, and have lost track.
It's about HIM again. Not ME.
So much harder to look at ourselves.
I also believe people can change, Eric. But they work to their own timelines, right?
I also believe people can change, Eric. But they work to their own timelines, right?
Absolutely....
People can change, it happens all the time.
Most people aren't against changing at all, they are against change that they are forced in to...
Say you had a store that sold....Tutu's
Tutu sales have been spiking for the past few months...
As a shop owner, you know you need to change, to accommodate your business..I.E. extending your hours of operation.
You would not be opposed to that...
However, forcing your employee to come in earlier, and stay later....
They would be opposed to that...
That is why it is so important to move forward ( not move on) for yourself...
So much harder to look at ourselves.
And so worth it....
Piano
I am a slow learner. This is all new to me.
Everyone learns at a pace that is comfortable for them, so please cut yourself some slack. FTR, many of us are still learning.
How far do I need to go searching for this answer?
Sometimes Piano we may never actually get the answer from our batchit crazy spouses. The only answer that we need to focus in IMHO, is…
1) Why have we tied our own happiness to someone else?
2) Why does FEAR cause us to do thing that we know are unhealthy?
3) What do we really want in our life that we can control?
4) Why do we tend to be codependent on other people?
5) What role did our childhood play in some of our behaviors?
6) What kind of parents do we want to be?
7) What really makes us happy?
8) Etc.
I guess my point is that we should focus our energies and thoughts on ourselves and our lives.
I am prepared to own this.
Own YOUR piece not his
So much harder to look at ourselves
OMG! Yes it is. Here ^^^ is where we truly find and accept ourselves. It is soooo not easy to do this. Think about it for a sec…how many times do we lie to ourselves? How many times have we done something that we really did not want to do? How many times did we wear a mask? How many time were we afraid to be OURSELFs? Yes, Piano, the internal searching/digging is tough. The rewards thought are wonderful. It is truly unfortunate that it takes a crisis to move us into this direction BUT man is it worth it.
Piano, if you really begin to look inside you may find things about yourself that really hurt. Things that you will not want to really look at. FACE’em! You will never be the same, once you do.
As for your H, let him go and leave him in God’s hands for know. Nothing you do can make him change. Nothing. Nothing you do can make him do something that he does not want to do. What you can do is by your actions….show him what “love” really is. Love of yourself, love of others, tough love, true love.
Hey Mach – nice tutu comment
God Bless,
Eric
OMG! Yes it is. Here ^^^ is where we truly find and accept ourselves. It is soooo not easy to do this. Think about it for a sec…how many times do we lie to ourselves? How many times have we done something that we really did not want to do? How many times did we wear a mask? How many time were we afraid to be OURSELFs? Yes, Piano, the internal searching/digging is tough. The rewards thought are wonderful. It is truly unfortunate that it takes a crisis to move us into this direction BUT man is it worth it.
Piano, if you really begin to look inside you may find things about yourself that really hurt. Things that you will not want to really look at. FACE’em! You will never be the same, once you do.
This is good advice.
People DO change ALL the time, though.
What you can do is by your actions….show him what “love” really is.
You can do that by focusing on yourself, encouraging his relationship with your child, and show him (pictures) the fun he is missing out on. This OW will most likely get old/boring fairly quickly. You, on the other hand, have excitement going on.
Keep in the 'present'.
Piano, I want to believe what Dmod told you but don't put all of your eggs in one basket. I didn't, thankfully, although I was more convinced that he would leave her and not divorce me than what really happened.
Now something interesting- I saw that you said you dominated conversation, was the planner,talked over him. Guess who was similar? Yep. Moi. And the single mom I met up with today (for the 2nd time) was cheated on and left for the OW (after the baby was born).She was/is a take charge,independent kinda gal, too!
???
I totally understand wanting answers. I liked Eric's warning that we may never be able to understand WHY our spouses did what they did and it will drive us crazy. I know I am in a good place right now where I owned my mistakes and recognized his mistakes and I no longer feel like I caused his affair! Are you there yet?
I know I am in a good place right now where I owned my mistakes and recognized his mistakes and I no longer feel like I caused his affair!
BINGO!
Fu*king A newmamaa!
Piano, you own your issues and look inside and KILL the ones THAT YOU do not like. Not the ones that HE does not like.
Why would you want to change things about yourself that you like to be with someone? What does that say about YOU.
Your strong - don't be afraid to feel it and accept it. Your smart - don't be afraid to accept it. You are the type of person that loves deeply (otherwise you would not be here)...don't change that.
You say that you were a planner - is that all bad? Fu*k no. Do not put yourself down because your H has issues that he is unwilling to look at and deal with. Personally, I say pat yourself on the back for all of the work you are trying to do, and FTR, succeeding in doing.
Be proud of yourself Piano. Be proud.
God Bless,
Eric
Thank God for you people.
What you can do is by your actions….show him what “love” really is. Love of yourself, love of others, tough love, true love.
YES! I want to do this.
I still have much, much learning to do...
I am learning to love myself and be my new best friend
I am learning to love and accept others as they are and not try to 'change' them or have them agree with me.
"True love". Well! Funny you should write this. My H says he has found "true love". Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't, but there is nothing loving about walking away from your pregnant wife and baby.
I think true love is standing by your wife and baby even when you don't FEEL like doing it.
I also believe people can change, Eric. But they work to their own timelines, right?
Most people aren't against changing at all, they are against change that they are forced in to...
Hello Mach1, nice to meet you
I tried to force my husband to do the "right" thing. Of course it backfired and only made him feel more trapped, more obliged to love something he didn't feel like doing.
The answer is to give him his freedom....
I haven't given him the'Dobson' letter...
Will have to show I am letting go just through my actions now..
I know I am in a good place right now where I owned my mistakes and recognized his mistakes and I no longer feel like I caused his affair! Are you there yet?
Hey Newmama, I am so happy you are in this place.
It's my destination.
Not there yet.
Getting lost around the way and sometimes read the map upside down!
I emailed H tonight.
Thanking him for the money and asking how regular it would be. Told him we were lucky my parents were supporting me and bub but that it could not go on indefinitely. Asked him to keep working on my citizenship issue with me for the benefit of us all. Gave him brief news about bub, plus 6 or so photos.
The email was more businesslike than anything. No anger. Light. Some humour at the end. Like I was writing to the neighbour.
Your husband gets addicted to an affair, runs out of the country, abandons you and his newborn child and you write to him like he's your neighbor?
I would be shutting this guy out until he acts like an adult.
If he isn't paying proper support let the authorities deal with him.
Don't coddle him Piano it's not likely to do any good.
I emailed H tonight.
Thanking him for the money and asking how regular it would be. Told him we were lucky my parents were supporting me and bub but that it could not go on indefinitely. Asked him to keep working on my citizenship issue with me for the benefit of us all. Gave him brief news about bub, plus 6 or so photos.
The email was more businesslike than anything. No anger. Light. Some humour at the end. Like I was writing to the neighbour.
good job
Your husband gets addicted to an affair, runs out of the country, abandons you and his newborn child and you write to him like he's your neighbor?
I would be shutting this guy out until he acts like an adult.
If he isn't paying proper support let the authorities deal with him.
Don't coddle him Piano it's not likely to do any good.
This won't give you yor desired result.
Sorry I said "But I think you are looking at (1) because it makes you feel better." and I meant #2.
People DO change ALL the time, though.
What you can do is by your actions….show him what “love” really is.
You can do that by focusing on yourself, encouraging his relationship with your child, and show him (pictures) the fun he is missing out on. This OW will most likely get old/boring fairly quickly. You, on the other hand, have excitement going on.
Keep in the 'present'.
This won't give you your desired result.
At some point...
Once he stops hurting you, stops lying, stops making excuses for himself, stops this ridiculous addictive fantasy
You have to give up the fantasy that he will stop based on your actions (or boundaries disguised as control)
He may. But if it is not his choice he will be right back at the bar.
Once you have protected yourself then...(real boundaries to protect you and your child)
Let him figure it out.
Placing faith in the fact that anything you do will get an addict to do something they haven't decided to do themselves is going down a path to codependency.
Meaning, you become consumed in trying to stop or control the behavior or begin enabling it or denying the problem.
You will end up frustrated, bitter and angry.
I speak from direct experience with this with substance abuse.
That is if you accept the theory that an affair is an addiction to the degree that substance abuse can manifest itself.
IOW there is no physical dependency on the chemicals that run through your brain when you are engaged in an affair.
If you stop drinking when you are abusing alcohol so badly you can die from the physical addiction your body has gotten use to.
So my point?
YOU decide what continues to cause you pain. You will get there anyway. If you waste your time trying to control an addict(and in this case a WAS) once you have told them you will not accept it in your life then it will keep you from your own path to healing and happiness.
How long you wait while your partner is in this "Fog" is up to you and a personal choice IMO so don't let anyone tell you when to do that.
And I don't believe it is anyone's place to take away your faith in that.
Just my opinion based on my experience.
Geez, you leave your thread for a minute and all kinds of activity pops up!
Hello Trugritter, hello Clark Kent.
Before we get into the nitty gritty, can I straighten out a few points and it might throw some light on why I seem to be continuing to coddle him:
1. I need him to help me finish my citizenship application. One more step is involved, and my citizenship is secured. This is for my FUTURE. If I piss him off, he will pull the plug. I have lost so much already; this too?
2. My husband left me in January. He separated from me, never told me anything but that we were over and that I needed to move on. It' s like we are already divorced. He is not cheating behind my back. He is in a new relationship with his former affair partner. I don't consider that cheating. It's painful, but he's no longer hiding her. They live together!
I have to make H accountable financially for what he has done.
I cannot do the rest for him.
I can only be the best me possible.
I invite more comments.. maybe I am missing something?
Clark and Db-mod.
To me you represent the two polar opposite ways of busting the affair/saving the marriage.
One, tough love (Dobson) and two, bo-peep/calm things down/be the better option.
It's important in every sitch to do weigh up all the information and conflicting advice, and do what WORKS. Not what makes our spouse happy or upset, but what will bring me closer to my GOAL.
My goals:
hopefully to save my M
but first and foremost save ME.
My H is not ready to come back home, I am not ready to receive him.
We both need to change.
And he needs to leave the OW who he is in love with and she is in love with him. I cannot control that in any way shape or another.
Meanwhile, I CAN make it tough on him financially. Not tough so much as what is FAIR. I need to protect my baby and me and our future. Quick smart.
And I would also like to keep my life options open by securing my citizenship, which is my due.
Hi Piano!
As you have seen, you can get advice from one person that is the exact opposite of another's. It used to happen to me all the time. I would get so confused as to what was "right" and what was "wrong" that I ended up not being true to myself.
Which approach speaks to you, Piano?
In my time, I was accused of letting my H be a cake-eater. I would listen to that, and end up getting angry at him, and worse yet, feeling justified in my anger. At those times, I would lash out and usually undo any of the good that I had done up until that point.
You know your H better than anyone on this board does. You know your history better than anyone as well. I see that you used to talk over him and had a little bit of a controlling streak (so did I..oh man, so did I).
What worked best for me was to fix the things that needed fixing...not for my H but for ME. After all, it really isn't nice to talk over people, and being too controlling is a problem. Of course, I wanted my H back, but I also wanted a better version of me.
I spent time with him and worked on our relationship by changing the things that I could change. I know you don't have that luxury, but you do have what the DB mod suggested- light and happy emails and pictures of your child.
That doesn't mean your life has to stop in the meantime. No one is advising that you put all your eggs in that basket and sit home and pine away and wait for email replies. You keep on living, but yes...leave that door a teeny bit open.
I firmly agree with "being the better option."
The key is to have no expectations, other than to continue to be a better you.
I am hopeful that your H will reply to your email and you can begin a friendly exchange. I am not saying a romantic exchange, but a friendly one. Let's face it, you are going to be in eachother's lives for at least 18 more years to some extent. At the very least, you can build a solid co-parenting relationship. Or more. Who knows?
Right now, you need to decide what is right for you. And then monitor the heck outta the results. Do what works, as they say around these parts.
P.S.
I love that you realize that he is not ready to come home, nor are you ready to receive him. In looking back (see how long I have been here?) I am glad that we did not reconcile at the times I
thought i was ready. It would not have worked.
Yep ^^.
CMNM, thanks for chiming in. I was almost paralysed by the conflicting advice. My advice to any newbie would be along the lines of most of the good advice here --- detach from the situation, remove yourself from the drama so you can stop and THINK. If you react to the WAS's crazy antics, you are only getting in the mud with them and then nobody can lead the way out of the crisis. But hey, I ONLY know this in hindsight. I didn't know then what I know now - now I know it in my bones, before it was all nice theory. That's life..we all heal and get a hold of ourselves at different paces, and by then the WAS could be so far down their path that no "saving of the M" can take place.
I'd be interested in looking at your sitch. Where do you post?
Which course of action speaks to me?
Well, I beleive being strong without being unkind or being an a$$ is the best way for me to move forward, with or without H coming around.
I know some would call this soft.
But I did 10 months of ranting and raging in WH's face, and apart from turning him off me completely, I could not beleive what I was allowing HIS ACTIONS turn me into!
I cannot let him have that power over me...
Not because I am being soft
Becauase I want to have self-respect and get anger out of my heart because it's hurting me and hurt me for too long being the 'victim' in all this.
Hi again Piano.
I don't post anymore, and when I did, it was very sporadic. As I said, I got so much conflicting advice that it was doing me more harm than good, because I did not have the self-confidence to decide what would be best for ME.
Besides that, I cheated on my H long into all of this...and to some people (C_K, I mean Allen), that makes me someone that no one should ever listen to.
Funny thing, I have a lot of perspective to offer.
And, I am in the middle of really healing the relationship with my XH. Every once in awhile, if something really resonates with me, I stick my neck out again.
I did it here because I remember how I, too, was paralysed by the conflicting advice. Finally, JTB got ahold of me and made me see that being a good person and being nice was never going to hurt matters, that I just had to make sure that I set and kept certain boundaries. I guess I didn't understand at the time that you can set boundaries with love. All the ones I had set at that point were out of hurt and anger (no wonder they didn't work!)
I am sure you can go all the way back and read my old threads. Just please understand that I have come a long way in my life, and would never ever repeat the mistakes of the past.
I know that not one size fits all; I am only sharing what worked for me.
And yes, after many false starts and mix-ups, it is working.
And I will say a prayer of thanks when my whole family (yep, XH too) is around the table in four more days.
Which course of action speaks to me?
Well, I beleive being strong without being unkind or being an a$$ is the best way for me to move forward, with or without H coming around.
I know some would call this soft.
But I did 10 months of ranting and raging in WH's face, and apart from turning him off me completely, I could not beleive what I was allowing HIS ACTIONS turn me into!
I cannot let him have that power over me...
Not because I am being soft
Becauase I want to have self-respect and get anger out of my heart because it's hurting me and hurt me for too long being the 'victim' in all this.
This seriously just brought tears to my eyes.
This is not being soft.
It is being true to who you are.
When it is not a strategy, and not being done for "results," that is when you really begin to heal.
I am really happy for you.
Be true to yourself, Piano! Only YOU know what is best for YOU.
This is not being soft.
It is being true to who you are.
When it is not a strategy, and not being done for "results," that is when you really begin to heal.
Ayep!
Good plan to be civil, but not leaving yourself wide open to more heartache.
Piano,
You are getting some very good advice from Grit and CNMN.
IMO, at the end of the day you must decide ONE thing.
How does Piano want to live her life.
Does she want to hold on to anger and resenment and try to control things that are outside of her control OR
Does she want to live a life of peace and love. Not a doormat - no a life with healthy boundaries and healthy R's.
Everything and I mean everything in our life is a CHOICE we make.
You choose to love, you choose to forgive, you choose to stay angry, you choose to listen to others, you choose to be happy, you choose to be sad, you choose to stay depressed, you choose to be a good parent, you choose to let go, you choose to allow people the freedom to be what THEY want to be and you also choose to be what YOU want to be.
Choices....Piano,
Everything is a choice.
I have not doubt that you will choose what is best for you and that precious little girl that you have.
May God Bless you,
Eric
Hi again Piano.
I don't post anymore, and when I did, it was very sporadic. As I said, I got so much conflicting advice that it was doing me more harm than good, because I did not have the self-confidence to decide what would be best for ME.
Besides that, I cheated on my H long into all of this...and to some people (C_K, I mean Allen), that makes me someone that no one should ever listen to.
Funny thing, I have a lot of perspective to offer.
And, I am in the middle of really healing the relationship with my XH. Every once in awhile, if something really resonates with me, I stick my neck out again.
I did it here because I remember how I, too, was paralysed by the conflicting advice. Finally, JTB got ahold of me and made me see that being a good person and being nice was never going to hurt matters, that I just had to make sure that I set and kept certain boundaries. I guess I didn't understand at the time that you can set boundaries with love. All the ones I had set at that point were out of hurt and anger (no wonder they didn't work!)
I am sure you can go all the way back and read my old threads. Just please understand that I have come a long way in my life, and would never ever repeat the mistakes of the past.
I know that not one size fits all; I am only sharing what worked for me.
And yes, after many false starts and mix-ups, it is working.
And I will say a prayer of thanks when my whole family (yep, XH too) is around the table in four more days.
Absolutely beautiful. At the end of the day, take the high road, the kind road.
Hey P!
Wow, what a thread, yeah baby yeah yeah!
The advice to 'follow your heart' is great.
I have to say, as a friend, it worries me sometimes how you keep focusing on what you have done and what you need to change. (This is based on a post you had back on page 3 or 4.)
K, maybe starting controversy here, I don't know. But it seems that the prevailing belief some DBers have is something along the lines of:
Your spouse left. You, as the LBS, must have some things to work on. Work on them for you. (Even though it's so easy to work on them for the WAS... blurry line...)
But what about this idea:
Your spouse left. S/he, as the WAS, has some major issues to work on. Abrupt leaving, no full explanations, dodging opennness... this indicates imbalance, instability. The LBS needs to get away and strengthen, heal, grow.
F**k "working on you"! It's not like you're a psychotic, overbearing megamonster. You don't need to monitor yourself to make sure you're being giving enough or being kind enough more than the average person.
We're at too vulnerable a place in our lives, I think, to introspect so much and try to improve so that we're worthy of a lasting relationship-- F that!
I believe in GAL. Have fun. Detach. Learn new things. Meet new people. Heal.
Only "work on yourself" in THAT way.
I hope that rant made sense.
Love ya, P!
Thanks everyone!
G, makes total sense! And hell, bring on the controversy on my thread anytime!
I am interested in diverse set of opinions because I'm getting stronger and on a good day, know how to pick a bit from each of them and apply to my sitch.
But thanks - you've reminded me to let myself off the hook from time to time.... So essential in getting my mojo back.
You always were a natural DBer and I'm glad you still post here from time to time!
Re your 'work on yourself' plan - everything in your list is so important
But I do believe there are areas of me I want to change, for ME.
Love ya back!
Piano...you aren't missing anything...you know what to do to meet your goal, and you know yourself and your limits pretty well.
I want to add that your DB coach gave you direction specific to YOU, and your fairly unusual situation. Remember that advice, because it will serve you well. The same advice spoken in the same way isn't for everyone.
Shameful people.. Very shameful.
Look I don't know this person Dobson
But does he allow for other points of view that differ from his?
Does he preach casting judgement and "shame" toward some of his colleagues that might have a different view?
Does he have a message forum maybe where you might feel more comfortable?
I am in no way suggesting your opinion is not welcome here but you seem to have an approach that does not allow for other perspectives?
I agree with some of the things you say, but not all.
I only offer, as most people do here, my own experience.
To help people.
To put back what I DID learn HERE.
I recognize that your experience may be different and that you feel sharing that is what might help.
Clearly you should not be ashamed to share that and
I am not ashamed to share that.
Not one single bit.
My story is here among these pages and if it helps anyone to read it they are welcome.
I allow that there may be other ways to get to someone's answer for THEM.
SHAME?
What use is that for anyone here who has been through this tragedy?
AND stands here and puts back to this process.
Gives back what they recieved?
I applaud anyone including you Clark who gives their time to people here.
I respect that you do that. Have the same courtesy.
I do not need your agreement for my views why do you insist on mine and others?
I am here as you are to help people the best way I know how.
Sharing myself and my experience.
PS: Sorry Piano that this is happening on your thread.
It really shouldn't
So
I will not do it again
Only to post what think may be helpful to you.
I'll be back to post in a minnie... I think Dobson is great (have read the book) and is brilliant in a situation when a WS is lying, cheating, being cruel etc. I have learnt about tough love through him.
CK, my husband is a Peter Pan
He is a man- child
but he is not lying and cheating right now.
I could cut him off completely but how do I acheive my goals of getting more money this way and securing my citizenship?
This Q is for you, CK.
OK
Look I don't know this person Dobson
But does he allow for other points of view that differ from his?
Does he preach casting judgement and "shame" toward some of his colleagues that might have a different view?
My issue isnt' with Dobson's view or softer views such as Davis or others.
My issue is the mischaracterization and gaslighting that goes on in order to steer people away from protecting themselves from abuse after it is long overdue.
If you want to advocate author A, and I advocate author B that's fine... But dont' misrepresent what one author says in some desperate attempt to refute them... You do a disservice to the writer and visitors here.
That's all I'm sayin...
Um, I'm with Gatsby, and now I am confused.
No apologies needed and I don't think anyone is misrepresenting or gaslighting anyone.
I am feeling confident enough to handle all views.
James Dobson - "Love Must be Tough". Great on boundaries, great on letting go of the people that abuse you (especially those spouses openly having affairs & still living at home - ie. cakeeating).
Side point - Dobson is a terrible homophobe. Found that part very disappointing.
CMNM,
Thanks for your post. I'm glad my post resonnated with you.I cycle through emotions, but I really want to calm down my anger..for MYSELF.
I can sound all calm and everyhing because I am not having to deal with my WH on a daily basis, like many other's are here where there are kids involved.
Good on you for offering your advice. Good people stray. There is usually a reason and yes, it's often a question of poor boundaires and sometimes momentary lack of integrity/ability to work things out "like and adult". We are all weak in some areas, no one is perfect.
I hope the family gathering with XH goes well.
My parents are divorced, and the two sides of my family (dad & step-mum, mother and step-dad) share special occassions and see each other regualrly... It's taken 30 years, but they got there and I am proud of them. It's sure made life a lot easier on us 'kids' !
Someone fix the Edit button, please !!!!
I can't stand the sight of my typos.
Hi, Piano!
Well, I beleive being strong without being unkind or being an a$$ is the best way for me to move forward, with or without H coming around.
Good, this is for YOU- YOUR VALUES are to be strong without being cold or a jerk.
I will keep my posts shorter than some of the others just for variety
But my gut reaction to you saying your citizenship is top priority- you do what you need to do! Honestly! Don't mess around- trust your instincts and get that taken care of.
Oh and I agree with G- GAL without the self help books is WAAAAAY more fun and helps more with detachment than reading the books about how badly we screwed up in our relationships and what terrible communication habits we have and how to change and oh boy....depressing and overwhelming!
Put that relationship rebuilding stuff on the back burner and you will come back to it in a natural way. Hard to explain but I think it must be a process or something. Heck, maybe it prevents you from being detached and that's why it doesn't go well with GAL!
Piano,
Thanks for that. I really do appreciate your kindness and understanding.
I will tell you this, I learned the following lessons through my very bad choices:
1. It is very possible to cheat
and love your spouse at the same time.
2. It is very possible to cheat and NOT love the OP whatsoever.
3. When you feel badly about yourself, it is lots easier to get validation from outside instead of working on yourself.
That may sound very simple, but it was quite the revelation to me. I share it with you now because I would have never believed the first two if I hadn't experienced them first-hand.
The family gathering will be wonderful. And not in a "see? we can be grown-up and polite to each other" kind of way. More like: "Wow, this is the relationship we could have had all those years??? Lets get to it!" kind of a way.
CMNM, dont thank me, it's normal.
#1: Yeah, I can see how this might be. But you for sure haven't got the hots for your spouse if you are cheating.
#2: My H loves the other person (according to what he has said)
#3: Yes. I think my H thinks that the only person who understands him and wants him to be happy is the OP.
One last q, when did you and your H split?
Newmama! I like your perspective. Reading self-help books has a place, a big one, but it's important to get out there and live.
I cannot imagine letting a man into my life again.
I've NEVER met another man that I liked like I liked my H.
"It (detachment) is not detaching from the person whom we care about, but from the agony of involvement".
- Codependent No More
1. It is very possible to cheat and love your spouse at the same time.
I don't buy this one for a second... It's a blatant contradiction to be loving someone and hurting them at the same time.
If you are hurting someone, you sure arne't loving them at the time ... Makes no sense whatsoever.
"It is very possible to cheat and love your spouse at the same time. "
Surprisingly this happens often where the spouse having the affair has feelings for both spouse and OP. I've seen it on a number of affair documentaries, references and sites.
I think it makes sense... think about it:
you love your husband, of course you do...
but he's not exciting you anymore, you feel empty around him
the other man starts to fill his shoes...
It is not LOVING behaviour, of course not!
But the wayward spouse has FEELINGS for both.
A bad scenerio for everyone, and very painful for the LBS.
I'm going away for a few days with a girlfriend. Catch up with you all then.
Hi Piano!
Hope all is well with you today.
My H and I began having serious problems in our marriage in about year 8. We sadly did not take care of them properly~ and not all the times up to then or after then were bad, but they certainly were not as good/great as they could have been.
We split after 19 years of marriage- 6 years ago.
We were very close to full reconciliation almost a year ago now. I wasn't ready- I still had lots of anger and felt I needed many things clarified. I ended up blowing up one night and in one fell swoop took away all the good I had done. He was scared again~ scared of living with anger and control and the other bad things I have been known to bring to the table.
We went complete no contact for two months, from early Jan. until early March. After that, we slowly began trying to rebuild the friendship. It has once again crossed over to something more, and I am hopeful that this time it will "stick" so to speak.
I am not trying to make YOUR thread about ME. I offered up the three things that I did because they were the things that I wish I had understood and believed. I would have been able to lose the anger a lot faster.
Since I lived it, I will repeat again that it is VERY possible to love your spouse yet cheat. By that time I was convinced that my H just didn't care about me, and never had. And yep, here enters a guy who thought I was the greatest thing on earth. I loved my H...I loved my kids. I just wanted to love ME, and I think that the boost I was getting was my chicken $hit way of convincing myself that I was lovable.
I didn't love this guy. Never did. I just liked the version of ME that he seemed to believe in. That was the draw. He was not anywhere near as attractive as my H, and I was not really all that physically attracted to him.
There really is a lot more to it, and a lot of revelations that came in time. I don't want to clog up your thread, and I have already offered more than you asked. I just did not like Allen telling me that I didn't know my own feelings.
Quite honestly, that firm belief that you can't possibly love someone if you cheat on him/her is what led me away from my H in the first place.
I know better now.
I'm going away for a few days with a girlfriend. Catch up with you all then.
Have fun and take care of yourself! Good for you!!!
Thanks CMNM, your posts are very generous and thank you so much for sharing that with me.
My H said he loved me but had lost hope. That he didn't feel the necesarry love and committment. He says he loves OW and she loves him.
I think he probably is in love with OW's idea of him, built on fantasy and childhood escape (she's from him childhood- family friend).
I thank you for reminding me that getting over my anger might help the process with him.
Should I be anything but cordial and businesslike with him right now?
Looking forward to my trip... a friend and her baby, me and my baby.
Cordial, yes. Businesslike? Well, I understand that you have business to attend to...just remember your controlling nature and try to squelch that. There is a way to get the things you want/need without manipulating someone/a situation.
What else?
Well, what parts of you did he fall in love with?
Give him nice little glimpses of that again.
And yep, I agree that he is probably loving OW's idea of him.... We do gravitate towards those who make us feel good about ourselves.
The beauty of that situation though?
When you know deep down that you don't deserve it, you become unfillable once again. And then you can move on to another starry-eyed lover, or you can do the work on yourself. Thank God I chose the second option....
Not wanting to rake over old mistakes for ever, but me and everyone else in his life has spent a year telling him what an a$$ he is, and yet he kept it up...
How does someone come back from that?
And how, when I am on the other side of the world..good for detaching, not great for reconciling...
Well, we'll see I guess.
Nothing is impossible, Piano.
OK, so first step,
stop telling him what an ass you think he is.
: )
He knows.
Build it slowly. You did a beautiful thing with the pics and letter. Just remember, NO EXPECTATIONS!!!!
Just remember, NO EXPECTATIONS!!!!
sounds like what Babydoll did...just "floated!"
I hope you have a great time! Good GAL to hang with a gal!
(hardy har har!)
"How does someone come back from that?"
Time and compassion.
Hi Piano,
Just dropped in to say happy Turkey Day
Eric
Happy Turkey day back to you, Eric, and my American friends.
We don't celebrate Thanksgiving on my side of the world, but I understand it's a great tradition over there, even bigger than Christmas, can that be true??
Newmama, you funny gal, you!
So.....
Just got back from my trip.
Had a very hard time reading Codependent No More and have started to feel very bad about myself.
Especially the bit where it says you co-dependent relationships end rather violently.
My sitch was so crazy and made me so desperate at times, that I've started to wonder if H was trying to escape a 'sick' relationship.
See - there I go blaming myself again!
H sent me an email also. Says he is going to pay a certain sum per month (not far from what he's meant to), that he will help me with my citizenship but would prefer we go down the normal channels and legally seperate so I can get more $ from the state, then he mentions how there is "so much to sort out" but there's "time for that". He's talking divorce and separation of all our assets.
He thanks me a lot for my email and the photos.. says how beautiful the child is, how much he misses her.
Reiterates that he is coming her for her 1st birthday and has told his boss.
signs off "With all my thoughts".
So, you might say this is positive, that this he is taking the 'bait', so to speak (that is, me being nice).
But how did it make me FEEL?
Extremely bad. Extremely extremely hurt, as if I was betraying myself.
I was so angry all of a sudden. I cried my guts out like I haven't for months.
What's happening to me?
Is this the typical cycling of codependent behaviour? Am I stuck, emotionally?
Am I freaking out because now H and I are dealing with the reality (separation talk, rather than R talk) of what is happening?
Or because I am not acting true to myself.
Because I keep coming back to the idea that a man who leaves a woman like my H left me, is a cruel, cruel man and my problem is that I am still hanging on to our old relationship which is dead.
I was very frightened for my mental health this week.
I felt so sad, so angry, so tired.
Don't want this to turn into a pity party, just reporting honestly on what the last 4 days have been like.
I haven't replied to H. the lawyer discussion was bumped to next week as the phone lines were blocked due to storms this week.
What I want to write to him is this:
"I am sorry you are missing your daughter and it is causing you pain. I don't know how to help you because I am also dealing with the pain of your decisions. I have decided to legally separate and use a laywer to sort out any details. I'm not angry or anything, just way too tired after this year and raising a young baby on my own."
Sorry, damn edit button again.
Not sure how I would end that email in reality...
I'm not sending it anyway..the old 48hrs rule!
I like that email, Piano. You don't have to end it other than
"- Piano"
I like it because it sounds calm, not angry, not too kiss ass-ey, just matter of fact. It sounds like you are taking charge but you also alluded that this is painful (as in you aren't the one choosing to end the marriage but since he brought up separation you are going for it)
And Piano, I don't think being heartbroken and deeply sad by this decision has ANYTHING TO DO WITH BEING CODEPENDENT!!! It is normal, it is healthy, it is a typical reaction to discussing the end of a marriage.
Gee, and how is he going to feel once he sees you are moving forward and not wondering how you could ever live without the idea of him by your side?
I just talked about the end of limbo--even if it means divorce-- ended up meaning the end to pain. Ok well not 100% but the pain lifted soooooo quickly after the D papers!
So he will see your bub in another 7 months? I just don't know about this man. I don't get it. I don't get my exH either.
yikes, ugh, I don't want to sound like I am saying how it's so great being divorced and you should join the club. I hope you see that I am not saying that...
It's just that there is a reason why God allows husband and wife to divorce in the case of infidelity. It's one of the commandments, and I am saying that after a certain point, well, the old marriage is DEAD! The marriage with the cheating husband! The marriage where the husband cheated on you after you got pregnant and he moved across the world to leave his daughter and be with OW.
It is so crystal clear to me what Gatsby said months ago--she wanted to just go ahead and divorce because she knew that the divorce did not mean that she and her H wouldn't end up together.
I get what you mean, Newmama and also think that being afraid of D is baaaaaaad for Dbing!
Thanks for reassuring me. I think we are all codependent, and given the (our) circumstances, it's only normal to feel this level of grief and anger etc.
I sent H an email. Longer that the one I posted above.
I am just so tired of this, so I wanted to put a few things out in the open.
I told him I am going to use a lawyer, what the CSA expects from him in terms of child support, how difficult things are going to be financially, and how upset and tired I am after the years events.
I know I am levelling a decent amount of blame on him in this email, but I don't care. What he did sucks beyond beleif and I am in desperate need of picking my self esteem up the floor, which includes sending a few truth darts his way...otherwise they seem to go internal.
I will be trying to work on getting better at this...
But I need to be ME. I need to find me and give free reign to MY voice.
Hi Piano, just popped in to see if there is a familiar name and found your thread.
I hope you are feeling better today.
P, I can totally relate to your feelings... I had a nervous breakdown MONTHS after I've been GALing so well!
An important interview with the board triggered it and I started to have dreams about STBXH day after day, the two of us living in a suburban house somewhere and just having normal conversations.
Is it possible to switch your focus to today P?
When we feel sad/angry about our stitch, I think what happens is we are focusing on our past and could-have-been future.
But was it really that good and perfect, the life with H?
All this emotions, could it be because he decided to pull the plug, the human nature of wanting what we can't have?
Fullmoon, good to hear ya!
I think being back in communication is what did it,plus the regrets over the past, fear of future. We all just want to be loved, don't we?
I am working on
- my anger
- my fear
- my communication
- myself-pity
- generating my own happiness
- thinking before taking action. ie.not reacting.
got a long way to go.....
Hey!
Did you have fun at the beach?
I like the idea of finding your voice.
Just a few random thoughts; might only pertain to my sitch, though:
Because I keep coming back to the idea that a man who leaves a woman like my H left me, is a cruel, cruel man and my problem is that I am still hanging on to our old relationship which is dead.
+ It IS a cruel, cruel act to leave a pregnant wife (esp for another woman). This is an H you don't want!!
+ Your old relationship IS dead and probably was before you (or any of us) realized it. (Or learned about it at bomb-time, as it were.)
+ In order to create a NEW relationship with this man we call WH, he will need to grow up and recognize the error of his act. (And we hope it is so!)
+ (I personally don't think there's anything you can do to really prompt him to grow up. But I suppose if he has grown up, there are ways that you can show him you're receptive to him. I would wait 'til he showed changes before I went bo-peep, BUT THAT'S JUST ME! I didn't write a book, and I could be soooo wrong.)
And on a little different note,
I do believe in not jumping in to a new relationship and repeating old mistakes. This is what I think I've learned since my bomb and what I hope I keep through the rest of my life:
+ Relationships ALWAYS need working on.
+ Don't skip birthdays and holidays (esp Valentine's Day!)
+ Recognize issues in the relationship AND take steps to fix it (and don't shy away from therapy!)relatively quickly
+ Share activities
+ But still keep your own friends and interests
Oh and
+ If your spouse comes to you and wants to do a separation WITH therapy, jump at it.
Well, P, I guess that's it for now. Thanksgiving was fun this year, we went back to my home state. (And met up with STBXH's grandparents, gotta love 'em!) It's not bigger than Christmas, at least in my opinion. But it is second place for sure! With Halloween or Easter third, depending on your religious preference.
G, like your list, and happy thanksgiving! Good to hear it's no bigger than Christmas..I love Christmas..bit of a bummer H dropped the bomb 2 days after Christmas...ugh. How were STBXH's grandparents? Did they say anything?
As for our H's (or STBXH's), we need the divorce so this marriage ends and a new start - whereever and with whoever - can happen.
Crap behaviour (leaving a pregnant wife) is not permitted in the next marriage!!!