Previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2096642&page=1Ok, I have been away from the boards for about a week now. I know that no one in their right mind is going to believe this but I just got home from the hospital.
I just can't make this crap up folks. I'm not that good.
Thursday night last week I have been feeling sick all week. I think I've got a sinus infection from Professor Cat Lady's cats who I'm highly allergic to. Well, this infection develops in the entire left side of my face and my neck swells up twice it's normal size and I've got a tennis ball under my chin. Severe crap, so I drive myself to the ER where they ambulance me to another ER that has an oral surgeon. Meanwhile I call my W and ask her to come stay with me in the hospital and for some reason she doesn't understand the gravity of the situation and how I'm going into emergency surgery and blanks out on me and tells me she'll see me in the morning.
I know, weird as crap. I put her on the do not call list at the hospital because I'm so pissed and hurt by her then I try all my friends and can get none but guess who - Professor Lady. She comes, helps me out in the ER, stays with me that night, and I just got home from spending 5 nights in the ER. I don't remember any of it.... but I do know my parents came on Friday and stayed with me.
W flipped out that same night when she realized I guess it was about 30 minutes after we talked (where she said she would see me the following day and not that night) and realized what she did and called every hospital in the area asking for me, but no one would tell her anything. Matter of fact, one hospital asked her "Are you the wife or the girlfriend?" Holy crap she blew nuts. Then she tried driving to the hospital but her car broke down so she had to get it towed back to her house 30 miles away from the hospital I was at.
Yeah, I can't make this stuff up.
She still can't find me, and my parents are mad as all hell at her for not coming to the hospital to see me so they are ignoring all her calls. So she goes and files a missing persons report TWICE on me. And she still can't find out anything except that I am alive and not dead because I've put a no-contact on her at the hospital.
Meanwhile, I was put on a ventillator for two days and had to be intibated while AWAKE because this infection blocked my airway so bad. I nearly died. The surgeon told me if I would have waited till morning I would be dead. Reality is no joke people. Plus I can safely say that being intibated while awake is the single worst experience of my life.
So I'm in a coma pretty much until today. That kinda sucked. I woke up and had a bajillion missed calls from W. I call her back and she is obviously angry and hurt. But, professes her undying love for me. For once she talks about working on us and wants to "have the conversation about us that we need to have but after your parents leave"
So now I'm in the situation that I've created myself. I'm fairly certain she wants to work this out now and wants to move back in. Obviously, I've my checklist of boundaries. I know what I want now, and cats is definitley not on that list of things I want EVER.
Seriously though. I'm struggling with this. I really need everyone to detach from the drama here and give me solid advice. What is my W is sincere in wanting this M and R again? Let's assume it's true, and that she has had a change of heart and mind and all it took was me nearly DYING to do that?
My question is this: I'm not an experienced husband, man, son, father anything really. I'm 28 years old. I'm still a kid, really when you think about it. I'll give myself some life credit for a career and providing well for my family, but beyond that I've learned to humble myself a little more. So, let's say that in my infinitely small wisdom I think I've seen what a good healthy relationship would look like for me where I'm cherished, honored, doted, loved, ABCD and all of the above. Let's just assume I know what that might look like.
And then I look at my wife and think, I'll never have that with her. I'll probably get pretty close at times, and I will always love her, and I'll be faithful and honorable to her and stand by her forever. But I don't think I'll ever feel that aliveness again and cherished feeling by her. She'll love me, the best damned way she can, but I don't think I'll ever have THAT kind of love from her.
Do I follow my heart, or my duty?
Oh, man, this was worth waiting for.
John, take care of yourself. Don't decide anything until you get well - physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. use this time to think.
Cheers
John, take care of yourself. Don't decide anything until you get well - physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. use this time to think.
Cheers
John,
I sincerely hope that time comes for you.
Get well.
Seriously, take many deep breaths. And also consider there choices other than door #1 and door #2, at least in the interim.
Poor Professor Plum. What will she do now? Will she shun her cats for John's true love, or will she remain true to her feline nature? It's not the cats fault, John was just too much catnip for them to handle.
As The World Turns has nothing on John.
Take care of yourself, John. I would take a break from Professors, cats, STBXWs, and anything else that might go pear shaped on you.
John,
You know my script was pretty close to what really happened. I just didn't write in the hospital ER.
Okay, so enough of the joking. Although, we are all going through our own sitch's yours in comparison to others on this is far more dramatic and that is due in my IMO to your youth.
Coach's right and spend this time by yourself and figure out what John wants and needs. Again, IMO from the description of your W all you will get is more drama and probably an episode on COPS. You can have a healthy R with your W, but maybe not a M. I actually have a strong R with my 1st W because we decided that though we could not remain M we needed to work together to provide a healthy environment for our two sons. Take care of yourself John.
Yaaay! John's back! ::doing happy dance in circles:
First and foremost, I am glad you are healthy and ok now. That sounds like a very scary sitch to be in. I am also allergic to felines so I can totally relate. Did you know you were allergic to cats before you went out with Professor "CAT" Lady?
Reality is no joke people.
YOUR reality is no joke, John! I am just glad you're alive and posting!
She still can't find me, and my parents are mad as all hell at her for not coming to the hospital to see me .
Did you tell them that youw ere the one who put her on the do-not-call list? I hope you did. Your W was immature for telling you she wouldn't check up on you but redeemed herself by coming to find you/calling you, even if she wasn't allowed to see you.
I know what I want now, and cats is definitley not on that list of things I want EVER.
Gave me a chuckle
So now I'm in the situation that I've created myself. I'm fairly certain she wants to work this out now and wants to move back in.
Do I follow my heart, or my duty?
What do YOU want, John? Find the answer to that.
Glad to see you back here....
Well, reconciliation isn't in the picture now like I figured it might be. Her short lived re-love wasn't real and she won't be moving back in. I did a fishing experiment and she was quick to say she wouldn't be coming back.
So I'm right back to square 1 which OK i suppose.
Parents are still here. Saw professor lady tonight and that was nice, I thanked her with a dinner. Not much else to report.
John,
Glad you are feeling better. No advice. I have learned you will do whatever you are going to do no matter what advice anybody gives you
Yeah, you're only 28. I wish I could say I was any wiser at that age. Sadly, that would not be true.
No matter what happens, you will learn, and that's something to be thankful for.
Good luck!
You will never get anywhere, because you continue to do what does not work.
LET HER GO!!! Get well!
Well, reconciliation isn't in the picture now like I figured it might be. Her short lived re-love wasn't real and she won't be moving back in. I did a fishing experiment and she was quick to say she wouldn't be coming back.
So I'm right back to square 1 which OK i suppose.
So what are you going to DO about it?
Just a quick update on my sitch.
W has expressed again her desire to go to MC after the LS is completed. My IC / Our previous MC has decided it's not about getting a S anymore, it's all about her being able to stand on her feet on her own so she can decide to re-enter the R and M.
W is not completely shut down on me yet I suppose. I'm still out there GAL and detaching as best I can from the sitch.
After my epic hospital stay of 5 days W has seemed to be warm to me and seems to want to spend time with me. She invited me earlier in the week to a movie/dinner with S4 on Friday night and I accepted. We went out for quick dinner and a kid's movie. Had a good time.
It appears I'm being tested again, which is fine. She keeps testing me to see if I will "be a good man". Honestly, I've done some pretty sh!tty things to her throughout this separation in her mind. Some legitimate, some not. She has made it very clear that she doesn't like they way I treat her and that is the only reason she isn't willing to try for this M. Otherwise, "If you prove you are a good man we can talk about our R then."
It's a little hogwash, but partly true. I've come to realize I'm a pretty retaliatory person when I am hurt or perceive to be hurt. I've said some pretty awful things to her when letting my emotions run rampant.
That hasn't worked so far... shutting her out. It's probably because I am not successful at LOVINGLY detaching. I've either been hot or cold. All over the map and never consistent. I either shut her completely out and am somewhat cold, distant, angry and retaliatory against her... or I am pining away for her and asking her to come home.
It's all a learning process I suppose about what to do and what not to do. That's what DB is in my case. I have a W who is way out of wack emotionally and is not very mature. For some reason I am starting to believe that the fact that I do not DB properly (lovingly) combined with the fact she's a wild card all the time makes this incredibly hard for my sitch. But, maybe I'll learn something along the way.
She started saying ILY to me about a week ago, and has been saying it ever since. She hasn't said that in almost 2 months. I know I shouldn't take that with much but it does feel different.
I just need to get all of this legal crap out of the way. It really is what we've been fighting about this whole time, each of us trying to leverage emotions against each other so we can get the "best deal". Once that is out of the way there isn't much to hold over each other's head... which I'm definitely guilty of.
Throughout all of this I've discovered that I'm still not the person that I want to be. I am still manipulative in the fact that I use my financial position and business affluence to negotiate, sometimes unfairly, a deal between us when her stance most of the time has been that all she wants is to be able not to starve. A lot of you here will comment on that and say that I'm being manipulated myself. In reality, I'm the one trying to punish her still for leaving in any way I can, including trying to make her starve for this crap she's done. Legally, I can make that happen with no problem. But that doesn't make me a "good man", and shows her more of the same behavior pre-bomb. Selfishness, controlling, manipulation. And then I hide behind the law because it's OK for me to do so.
Regardless if that's legally OK to do or not, I don't think that is the man I want to be. I also don't want to be a doormat. But, I negotiate in my job for a living and always start from a very strong perspective. I'm good at it, too. My business practices which aren't practical for a personal relationship have bled into that part of my life and some is good - but not in this sitch. With me being as good as I am at what I do professionally, it has been overkill in a R. I've come to discover that about who I am. And, I don't like that.
I'll probably continue to be tested, and that is fine. I've failed almost every test along the way with the exception of last night with the dinner/movie. After the movie we all walked outside and she was carrying S4 to the car. It was very cold so I took off my pea-coat and put it over them. She resisted at first, but then S4 grabbed onto it and she pulled it closer over them. When she got into the car she took my coat and wrapped it around her. This may seem stupid to all of you, but this is very very unlike my W. She always refused gestures like this, especially as of late. Something about her wanting to feel independent and not needing me. After I dropped her off she thanked me for giving her my coat. That is highly unusual as well. She never says thankyou.
It may all seem small and petty to you here, but that's the man I want to be. That's the man I was before all this mess and before my W and I started having problems. I was a much better man then - I just lost my way.
Her car has been acting up lately and had to take it into the shop. Actually, it's my car pre-marital that she has... been having some problems as of late. I talked to her today about dropoff of S4 with me and she said that the car had been stalling again. I asked her to tell me what was going on, so she described the problems. I told her it sounded like the fuel injector had a problem.... and then she started to ask something and stopped. I told her to keep going - and she reluctantly said that she had done some googling and it might be the PCV valve. I told her that it wasn't a big thing to fix at all. She then asked if I could take a look at it, but then quickly changed her mind because "I have to be able to stand on my own two feet". I told her to drop the car off and I would take it today and tomorrow and fix it. It's at tops a 1 hour job anyways. I tried to take the lead, and it worked.
This is pretty big really. She doesn't want me to do anything ever because of this sitch. These small acts of being lead are pretty big for this sitch, and also a test for me.
John... You may be young, but your W is even younger with a small child involved. She is vulnerable in many ways you are not (financially, negotiating skills).
It sounds like you both have a lot of growing up to do, but that you also have more potential for happiness than many of us here. As you' ve seen with Cat Lady, the baggage gets heavier as you get holder... Young love can be the best love if you can figure it out.
Put the work into yourself and the R if she's open to it. Don't crowd her, and realize she's trying not to feel so vulnerable by being more independent.
Good Luck!!
However it goes down, do be the man she will respect as the father of her child, no matter what.
John,
I went back and read your entire thread from the beginning... WHEW!
Speaking as a potential WAW, in my 2nd EA (I decided when it started up it was a sign of a problem, and was led here by SSM) --- There are just SO many opportunities and situations here that from the perspective of a WAW, I think were saying she wanted you -- in the biblical sense!
A girl doesn't do a panty show, have you wax her, etc. If she doesn't want sex. I KNOW she said there would be none -- but, for future reference... Say "Baby, I'd love to wax you... But I can't do that without it going someplace. I love your body, and that's too much of you to ask of me."
Now I don't know if all these opportunities are in the past, but my H is also a Daddy to me. If somewhere along the line he told me " I want a marriage with a healthy sex life" and we dealt with me feeling lonely in concrete ways (help me make a plan), then I don't think I would have gone online and fell into EA.
(sorry for typos...doing this on my phone)
Honestly, to me, the EA builds my confidence, makes me feel beautiful after just being a housewife all day. Until I came here I thought of it as a woman's version of porn. I am a super SSW!! and can't understand why husband doesn't pursue me like other man do, but literally is willing to bend over backwards for me over the years. He works ALOT, is on the computer ALOT, is always there for the kids, is great about housework, cooking, and errands. I'd trade all of that for sex and the intimacy. I feel alone, and now angry for all the years I've stayed in otherwise good M, mostly for my kids. I like my husband (except for certain gross guy stuff), he used to be my best friend, and I feel like I gave up career and family for his career moves over the years... Now, am I too old to GAL...?
Isn't it interesting how many of the issues are the same whether you are the WAS or the LBS?? Sometimes it's hard to really shake things up enough to get your H's to change... And like your wife says... Will they stick? Hmmm... So sad to do all this work to make your spouse a better person for the NEXT partner. John, in your case... I for one think your W loves you and the EAs were an attempt to fill a void -- I honestly didn't think of my flirtations as EAs until I came here. John -- you guys are SO young! It's too bad you couldn't 't have had educational pre-marital or post-marital counseling on communication skills etc. without the desperate circumstances:(. That is one thing my H and I benefited from during the 1st year of our marriage.
I relate to so many of your wife's issues... Pregnancies (unplanned), childbirth, relocations, husband gone all the time, caring for a young child and trying to work some education and career into that for yourself is exhausting. I hope you can both get past all the anger/distrust and grow up together. Many of the posters on here seem very jaded and seem to always assume the worst of your W to me -- (as in calling the L). I guess they haven't raised a 4 year old little boy 12-14 hours a day!!!
To me your wife sounds insecure, lonely, frustrated and was seeking a way to fill the emptiness that developed with your golf binge -- she should have learned to play with you, or picked up a hobby with some friends, but Oops... Bad choice! Seems like she missed all that sex from your Gift Card?
I love the interest in me as a WOMAN (not Daddy's little girl to be taken care of) -- BUT, deep down I know the OM can't hold a candle to man my husband is, and the LOVER he could be to me. I started feeling rejected by my H very early in the marriage sexually, so I'm not comfortable initiating sex(at this point we're in separate rooms, partially due to kid/health issues but I continued it for years once I lost attraction).
He loves her! And on some level, I think she still loves him. With intense relationship education... It could work. And, there is a 4 year old involved! As a WAS, EA-er, etc. -- It's still my husband's love I REALLY want! But I'm much older than this girl -- her pre-frontal cortex Is barely fully developed for God's sake! I don't think this is intentional on her part at all -- it seems pretty normal to me for a 24 year old, with young child, no education and a broken relationship. I'm surprised she's not more mental than she is!
Oh, John...! I just wishI could sit this girl down and have a talk with her. I just get this vibe she loves you, but you guys have your wires crossed! I hope she is doing some work on herself, because that is what I think could make her the wife that could make this R work!
T2GU - thanks so much for your comments.
You're probably spot on about my W. I never rejected her physically, but looking back what lead to her EA was me not being there spending quality time really LISTENING to her. I was a horrible listener and I was away from home alot. By the time I saw it, it was too late.
So many of my older female friends (including hers!) have said the same exact thing - "I want to sit her down and shake her and talk with her." I do too, but she has shut off all friends of hers that don't agree with her perspective of the sitch. Furthermore, her own mother won't talk to her about it because she doesn't want to get in the middle and/or doesn't agree with D as an option. So, my W is left nearly alone to make this decision and keep it.
She does love me. But she can't picture a life with me at all right now and doesn't think that is going to change. Those are her words, not my mindreading. I can't change those feelings and thoughts.
I can only give her a better option than what she has.
She does love me. But she can't picture a life with me at all right now and doesn't think that is going to change. Those are her words, not my mindreading.
What do her actions say? Cheating, asking for a divorce, leaving?
Nothing says, "I love you" more than that. This is where I don't get it, John. Anything that feeds your ego, you accept. Anything that doesn't, you apparently put little weight on.
Wish ya luck, but I have a feeling luck is where opportunity meets preparation.
John,
She IS trying to grow up...the attempts at independence are clearly all about that. From the one email you shared that SHE wrote from MC, she seems bright and actually has some insight. you are both focused now on becoming the adults you WANT to be, the people you want to be... I'm proud of you; I will just be so sad if you can't end up as a family together. It's going to take your W some time, going to school and doing things to give her idenity and self-esteem that she was using EA to do.
I know; I'm just an older version of her:(. Not to hijack your thread John, but reading your story has helped me. After reading your pain and effort with this marriage...I'm coming here for the support instead of to the EA; tonight I deleted my game App on my cellphone tonight where I chatted with OM, am deleting his number and email. Now... What to do to about my good (but unfulfilling) M to MY good man? The real work begins !!!
Good luck John... I hope hearing a wayward W's perspective helps. Albeit, I' m a bit older ( and wise enough to come here looking for help), I just hope it doesn't take a Bomb and the death of all my feelings to change my (long!) M. I'm ashamed for him to ever find out about the EA, but in a way it might be the only thing to make change happen. But, by the time I'd be willing to put my family through that kind of pain...
Whew, this is heavy stuff here. The lighthearted EA's are easier, but knowing the collateral damage... Not the way I'll leave if/ when I go. I just don't want to go back to being the depressed, lonely person in my SSM anymore either (before EA).
I just hope you two can work it out! I guess I still am a romantic soul, and with all the change you've both worked on... Your marriage still seems to have a chance.
T2GU?
Quick update - I may have found what works... maybe.
Today I dropped S4 off at W place since I had him this weekend. We traded cars this weekend because I fixed hers (which is actually mine) that needed some work. I told her this morning that it was all done and it seemed fine on the drive over.
I also remembered last night that she had said in the past that she didn't have any of the pictures we keep on an external drive. There are literally 5000 pictures and videos on there, so I copied them off to another drive and gave her the one we used this morning letting her know that everything was there she would need. She gave me a really big hug and said thank you. She then walked me out to my car and hugged me again and said ILY... then...
"I like the sweater you're wearing. It looks good on you."
Haven't heard anything like that in a while...
Crap. Utter crap. I expected more drama from you, John.
Did you do anything fun with S4? Give that punk a lot of attention while you can.
Crap. Utter crap. I expected more drama from you, John.
LOL i HOPE you are joking!
Crap. Utter crap. I expected more drama from you, John.
LOL i HOPE you are joking!
Of course.
Crap. Utter crap. I expected more drama from you, John.
LMAO!!!
(SMILE)
I'm pulling for you!
No more drama is needed PH...
Sounds like the courting maybe? has begun?
I wish I had the quote from Bagheera that I found (and emailed my H) this morning...
It's about the chasing game that is good to keep alive in a healthy R... A constant game of catch and release (as in fishing) is necessary for the W to feel pursued, attractive, desirable... But in the more subtle ways that occur when you are courting (which is the pay off in the EA).
Hmmmmmm John... Sounds like your W is definitely engaging in some of that! Have fun with it
OMG, I am so glad to be able to come here and not be tempted to contact OM today.
(I deleted ALL contact info, old chess games, chess game App, emails...about 3AM). Talking here makes me realize just vulnerable and pathetic I was! I do miss my chess games (no chat with my otherbpartners) but realize that's how I bonded with OM, so it all had to go...
If it weren't for John's thread I would have never considered it an EA.
My goal is put that energy into my H, and GAL (previously over invested in just my kids, who are now getting independent).
I just hope your young family can work it out John, but you are definitely becoming more mature in the process!
Ha!! Pin. I was thinking the same thing. This story needs a better ending or else it will just be a hallmark movie. Perhaps a speeding car race to the airport...
Your killin me smallz...
Here's that quote I sent to my H this am in email...
Hope it gives up some thoughts too John.
You other guys... This is not HBO... A Hallmark movie would be a GOOD ending, even if the reading is not as fun for you cynics ! Hey, maybe John will tell us about future bikini waxes if he gets that close again ?!?
(I'm going to try that on my H
Anyways, here is the quote:
"I think that at some point, you're going to have to just tell him (in a nice, non critical way) that courting behavior --> pursuit, romancing, seduction, are VERY important toward making you feel desired, cherished, loved, and in response, amorous and desirous of being with HIM sexually. You'll need to explain that women never tire of "the chase" (just point out to him the rows and rows of Romance novels at the local store, and the women of ALL ages who read them), and that part of keeping the romance and passion **alive** in a marriage is to never consider "the chase" done. Tell him (tongue-in-cheek) that he needs to practice the catch-and-release style of fishing when it comes to seducing you: chase you, catch you, ravish you, and then release you in order to chase again. It's a never-ending adult game."
Yeah, I'm not to the point of purusing where it garners good results. That puts pressure on her and that is not good AT ALL. Maybe if this were later on down the road pursuing would be good, but I know that it is not now.
I'm not really pursuing her right now. What I am doing is SHOWING her that I am a good man. Making her think "hmm. Maybe..." but I'm still a long long long ways off for her to finish that "maybe..." sentence. She doesn't want to be with me. She's very clear on that.
I'm just trying to be a good man and not DO things for her and show pursuit, but be there and think ahead one or two steps to do things that make me feel good about myself and at the same time shows her that I'm a good man.
She just wants to be with a good man. I have to give her that option.
What I dont understand is how low your self esteem is for you to think this is the best you deserve.
Why have you stopped letting her chase you?
Neither of you have taken the time to figure out what you really want. You have been too busy chasing your tails.
What happened to the cat lady?? Did I miss that episode?
Just keep it up... It's better to take the baby steps, because it is true, too fast will startle her. And... She's trying to become the person she wants to be as well.
Just saying... I think the lack of drama is a good thing. Especially for your son. And there is nothing more attractive to a woman than a GREAT Dad, who is trying to be a good man for himself and as a role model.
Hang in there John, one day at a time.
What about Cat Lady?
Lol! I'm sure the Prof would love to find out she is being refered to as "the cat lady" on some blog..
Cracks me up...
You have some catching up to do. This movie is longer than War and Peace.
It's Grey's Anatomy meets Desperate Housewives all wrapped up in one.
Add some vampires next door and you gotta hit.
I love it! Didn't even need to watch DH last night this was so interesting
Nah... As far as Cat Lady goes... No way at age 26 would I have pursued a married (albeit separated) guy with a 4 year old. I would have felt like a homewrecker, chasing this guy. I'd be friends and if a D happened then maybe, but NO... that's the reason you stay separated in most states for a year--to see if you can't make the M work.
Unless there is some really serious abuse going on... I stay away from married men, and keep Cat Ladies out of MY sandbox 
I've got to say... This is more entertaining than my EA -- but, I've got to GAL!!!
Please don't call her the Professor, as I am one! Or was before I stayed at home w/kid ... She'll always be Cat Lady in my mind. Hmmm... Maybe being SAHM is bad for marriage?!?
Professor Cat Lady is still around, but I've made it clear to her the sitch. The things is, we both connect in such a great way that it could just be bad timing, or whatever, who knows. She is cautious which is good. We're just having a good time together right now and seeing what happens.
It's a low pressure situation really on both our parts. Sure, she is 26, but I must say she really is much more wise beyond her years. She's a professor for god's sake. She's highly intelligent and is being careful.
I feel like I've busted into the Boy's locker room!
Sorry but something doesn't add up. Why she is messing around with a married guy w baby mama drama?
Does she have a social life??
Why does she need this attention and drama in her life?
Like you said she could have her pick.
She choses to see me because I'm a good guy... and frankly I'm really attractive, confident, successful, interesting, emotional, etc. I'm a very good catch even with this baggage.
We are also able to share a tight emotional connection which is very rare, at least from her perspective. She's said many times this is very important to her.
She doesn't want the drama at all. She's said many times she has reservations because of it. She doesn't like it and won't stand for it at all. She also hasn't seen/heard/been a part of any of it really.
I also want to add that my DB learnings translate into Professor Cat Lady as well. I think we had a conversation last night where she was talking about how she felt kind of distant and couldn't connect because of the sitch that I'm in. I told her that was good she felt that way, and I respected it. Not only did I respect it, but I wasn't going to say anything to try and make her feel different because nothing I could say would change how she felt because her feelings were REAL and VALID for her. I told her that she would just have to see how she feels given my actions, and that was all I could do.
Sound familiar?
She seemed floored really. She asked how and why I wouldn't change how she felt... I told her it was her place to feel how she felt and not for me to change that. She was going to feel how she felt and any presure from me to feel any different would not work. If her feelings changed, great, but if they didn't that was fine too. Either way, I'm fine and happy because I don't want any control of the situation and can only control myself and what I feel.
Sound familiar?
I think the words out of her mouth were, "Please, tell me your secret to letting go of that kind of control. That's amazing."
It's like mind-judo.
Lol!!! Dont forget "modest"... Am I on the right thread.
We know that.
John - if you are so vested in showing your W you are a good man then why are you having an emotional affair with another woman?
Having such intimate talks with somebody that is not your spouse is not okay IF you are trying to rebuild with your W. I bet you will know will be able to DB your W like a rock star since your emotional attention is with the OW. You are using the OW to provide you with what your W has chosen not to provide to you.
This woman seems to feed your ego which I think you really need but do you think your W would categorize this as being a "good man"?
I am very skeptical of OW. I don't know any women that consider an emotional man attractive. I can't speak for all women but dealing with an emotional man is nothing more than a big project that gets old quick. Everybody has emotions but I would not say being emotional is something most well grounded women are looking for.
For OW to take such emotional support from a married man with a kid, well, it's curious to say the least. Her age and job are moot points - her motivations are another. Needy people cling to other needy people and it seems she *needs* so much emotional attention for a reason.
Women who philander around with married men in ANY capacity tend to get all hot and bothered when the married dude chooses HER over his W. It's an ego boost to her and when her ego is boosted so does yours.
All I am saying is if you want to see if things can ever be rebuilt with your W I don't believe this is the way to be doing it.
CityGirl - I agree with you that Professor Cat Lady is feeding my ego. I'm not going to lie. I feel confident and attractive moreso after seeing her. I know I can get what I want if I wanted it. It does boost my ego.
And you're right too about me being able to DB like a champ since my emotional attention is elsewhere. You're blunt, and correct. I'm not really sure how to respond to that one except to accept responsibility for it.
Maybe I didn't phrase things correctly when I said she was happy to be seeing an "emotional man". I think what I meant by that was that I can clearly express in words how I feel, what I feel and when I feel it. I don't sugarcoat and I'm unguarded. I think that is different than being weepy crybaby who is a project.
Lol!!! Dont forget "modest"... Am I on the right thread.
Hahaha
yes, you're on the right thread. I am modest. I used to think that modesty was for the weak. I'm just trying to convey here my change of attitude.
Well, since you "know you can get what you want if you wanted to" from OW then to me it seems you are desperate for some measure of control.
You have no control over your W but you do seem to *think* you have control over this impending mess with OW. And when you (generally speaking) feel you have control over a situation you (again, generally speaking) tend to gravitate to what is most controlled.
Rebuilding a marriage is not about control. So are you really learning anything by participating in this *thing* with OW? Basically you are doing the same thing that your W did to you when she had her EA. So I am just trying to understand what exactly your goal is here.
Having a lady on the side you can "get with" if you want to really isn't conducive to doing the work on YOU and your M (should that happen). Then what? You will have to dump this lady and say "gee thanks ma'am but you are of no use to me anymore". Then your W will have to get over the fact you had an EA while you were supposed to be working on being a better man.
Personally I think your W is just seeing how long she can have you be her puppet but that is for another post.
I mean... you have said before you *need* somebody to tell you look good and how fly you are. You *needed* somebody to take care of you and so on.... so OW does that now. Then what?
When you don't get what you need from your spouse you start to resent and once you resent those walls go up. When you have a connection with OW the walls grow thicker. Maybe you *are* trying to sabotage things with your W?
In one post you say you are really just a kid but in another you say you are a grown strong man. Maybe you would be best off just getting to know who you are without the influence of your W or OW.
Maybe you would be best off just getting to know who you are without the influence of your W or OW.
Ding!! Ding!! We have a winner folks.
Maybe you would be best off just getting to know who you are without the influence of your W or OW.
Ding!! Ding!! We have a winner folks.
Hallelujah, and AMEN!!
Well, since you "know you can get what you want if you wanted to" from OW then to me it seems you are desperate for some measure of control.
Has anyone ever thought that this may have been a problem in the first place?
Last night got a text at midnight from W saying she unblocked me on the alt....
Then just now she called me at work and asked if I could fax something to a doctor for her.
Interesting. This is not like her.
Yes it is.
She unblocked you so that it would help her get you to do something she wants you to do.
Hmmmm... I think it's a little thaw. Keep doing what you're doing, keep melting her heart;)
In all seriousness, I think anybody you responds at this point is woefully unqualified to provide constructive feedback in this situation. The important thing is that you learn from this in the end, but I'd discount the value of any free advice at this point.
Let's recap:
Multiple affairs, control issues down to and including which plastic spoon you use to stir a pot, hystrionics including but not limited to threatening suicide with a handgun.
When confronted with the reality of the financial support she can expect post divorce by a mediator, she attacks you (presumably the weak link) because... well the legal system and mediators aren't likely to budge.
Then an ego-supporting affair by yourself to help rebuild your "self" esteem.
In all seriousness, if posting here helps you vent, that's all well and good. I'd take any free, non-professional (and I mean hardened, seasoned professional) advice with a grain of salt at this point.
But.. it's all good. We all learn from our experiences.
Hmmm. Thanks for that recap TH. Hmmmm...
TH - at this point I feel like things are calming down. I'm hoping and praying they stay this way.
For once it feels like I'm in a sitch (now at least) that alot of other people find themselves in... regardless of how I got here. My W is starting to thaw, or so it seems. She doesn't NEED me to do any of the things I've done. She is capable and before now more than adamant on doing them herself. The sitch is (by my standards) drama-less but not drama-free.
Example being: fix the car, send a fax, her opening up FB again.
By the way, her text to me last night, which was out of nowhere, was:
"I see you trying. I unblocked you on FB."
I really wasn't doing anything other than giving her space, being nice and lovingly detaching and thinking a few steps ahead of the DB to do relatively humanly decent things (like copy off all the pictures or fix the car she is driving which is mine).
She's an acts of service kind personality. I'm trying very hard not to read into this too much, but it is very unusual of her when she doesn't NEED anything from me right now.
Since your lady friend spent time at the hospital with you I have to wonder if your W somehow found out. It would explain her "need" for you again.
I hope it all works out for you. Just don't be so sure you know your W all that well. IMO the "I see you are trying so I unblocked you on FB" seems like she is giving you a treat for following her training program.
If you think this is real progress from your W then please get rid of OW. You will have NO shot with your W if OW is still present. Just ask my H how quick you will get shot down in that scenario.
This is the time for you to eliminate complications and not add them in.
Hi CityGirl! ::waves:: Glad to see you back here.
Oh she found out about OW for sure. When I called W and told her I was going into surgery and asked her to come to the hospital, she blanked weirdly and said she would see me the following day. I told the nurses to put her on the do not call list because I was so angry at her (and slightly doped on pain meds) because I felt abandoned and angry she would do that to me when I was going into surgery.
I had to have someone there to call my parents, friends, etc while I was in the hospital. It was late at night and I was being rushed into surgery and tried about 4-5 friends before calling Professor Cat Lady to come and make arrangements. She came and called everyone for me and informed them what was going on and stayed until my surgery was complete, then left. My parents didn't show up until the following day.
A few hours later W woke up and realized the gravity of the situation I was in and tried calling the hospital. Since she was on the do not call list, they acted like I wasn't there. She kept calling and calling and at one point one of the nurses said, "Are you the wife or the girlfriend?"
Yeah, she knows.
Time2GiveUp,
Have you seriously read through all of John's threads? Kimmie Lee hit it right on the button. His W is the biggest manipulator since Rasputin and Svengaly(sp) and only did this small gesture so that John will do something for her. There is no thaw and why would there be. What changed in the dynamic of their R?
Lots of the hospital drama could have been avoided. I understand you were scared and unprepared to have to endure such an experience but learn from your mistakes.
If you are not living with your W and your marriage is not stable you should have a Health Care Proxy. If you Google your state and "health care proxy form" the document should be free to download. It's a detailed document stating your wishes if you are unable to make medical decisions or if you need assistance during times of medical emergencies. It also removes your W from the equation.
Fill out the form and have your attny or a notary sign it. Shrink it down and put it in your wallet. Give a copy to all of your health care providers. Anybody going through a separation/divorce should have one.
Had you had something put in place you would not have had to scramble around and make calls and put people on "do not call lists". The Health Care Proxy document would have all of that spelled out.
My sister is my Health Care Proxy and my mom is my secondary Proxy. It saves you from lots of drama and stress should a medical situation come up during a divorce/separation.
Your W need not know a thing about it.
Time2GiveUp,
Have you seriously read through all of John's threads? Kimmie Lee hit it right on the button. His W is the biggest manipulator since Rasputin and Svengaly(sp) and only did this small gesture so that John will do something for her. There is no thaw and why would there be. What changed in the dynamic of their R?
HIH - I don't want to argue, but I thought I made it clear earlier. What she asked me to do (fax something) is very not like her. She didn't need me to do it. She could have done it herself. It wasn't anything really that important (the fax). It is VERY unlike her to ask me to do something especially when she has to have this sense of "doing it on her own". She's testing me again to see what I'll do, or if I'll blow up at her and go cold like I've done in the past.
The hospital thing really shook her up. I know it did. I can't explain it but it did.
John,
You seem like a good guy; a passionate guy; a guy that would give the only shirt off of his back to someone in need. However, IMO from reading your posts you are a guy that needs to be needed and will attach themselves to the next person who can feel that need.
One of the golden nuggets that I got early on from this site is that it is not healthy to need someone, but it is okay to want to be with someone. I do not need my W to be happy or to "complete me" as the romantic in me would say. You need to find it within you to turn those needs into wants. And TH is right you are in a sitch where it is beyond armchair psychology and free advice.
I have mentioned it and I know many other posters have as well have mentioned it. You need time to be alone and to find you and determine what John wants. John, you do not need anyone for you to be happy. What are you doing for GAL?
I think if you really go back and read some of your older posts you will have a light bulb moment. You have said many, many times you *need* somebody to tell you that you look good and you *need* somebody to dote on you. It's fine to want those things within reason but needing those things? You don't. You need to be able to fill up those holes on your own. And at this time you really can't seem to. Why?
I am going to guess the hospital was fully staffed and well equipped to deal with your medical emergency as well as a patient who had no immediate family support. Yet you called and called around because you *needed* somebody there. You had lots of people there... doctors, nurses and staff. Having been hospitalized several times I understand wanting somebody around but without you, you would have been fine.
Your W knows what you *need* so she gives it to you in dribs and drabs. I get it... you want to feel like the big strong H who can take care of things for his W. I think most men want to feel that way but right now its not the dynamic the two of you share.
As long as your W knows you *need* things like you do she will be able to keep you hooked. She may be acting more pleasant and polite (ex: thanking you) but that's not really much to write home about IMO. It's basic human decency to say thank you when somebody does something for you.
It just seems some of the things you do that you feel are a big deal really are nothing. But they feel huge to you because you *need* them to. Giving a woman and child a coat when it's cold is not a big deal at all. Having the woman thank you is not a big deal. But as you relayed the story it seemed to hold weight with you.
You do not *need* anybody to take care of you, compliment you or any of the other things you have posted. You may want it but you don't need it. And as long as you keep telling yourself you *do* need those things (instead of simply wanting them) you will keep attracting people who also have *needs* and not *wants*. Or, as you are seeing now with your W you will keep attracting people that know what your *needs* are and will use them to her full advantage.
It seems to me all your W has offered you is a list of administrative tasks to complete (faxing, calling dr) or sent you on an errand to fix her car (so you would pay for it). But you felt needed so you did them. And that is fine if you are fine with it.
Everybody needs people. I am not suggesting otherwise. But the level of what we need really decides how healthy we are to be in a long term R.
In 15 or 20 years would you want your son thinking he *needs* to have somebody tell him he looks good or *needs* to have somebody dote on him? I doubt it. I bet you would want him to be able to meet his own needs first before he invited somebody else to SHARE his life with.
You proclaim to be very emotionally and I do think if you start using logic to think and guide you things might change. It feels emotionally good to be with OW but it's not logical. It feels emotionally good to be *needed* by your W but it's not logical given the situation.
If you were detached from your W the idea of her asking you to do things for her would not mean a thing to you. It just seems you are putting an awful lot of stock in a few requests.
Wow CityGirl you hit it right out of the park!!!
Wow CityGirl you hit it right out of the park!!!
Glad to see you back CG
gr8
It's good to know that you can do things on your own, and not just survive but thrive. It's called growing up and being self reliant.
I'm not being a meany John, it's just something I've had to learn through my sitch as well..and I'm nearly 10 years your senior, lol!
CityGirl, thanks. I don't deny that any of what you said is true. I do feel like I *need* someone, I won't deny that. I guess I've always been like that. It makes me feel good when I'm doted on, told great things to, loved and cherished.
I reflected a little tonight about this. I've done the same thing before in my life. About 11 years ago I was in a relationship that lasted 3 years (until 2002). Two of those years were long distance and I was in college and she was back home. I cheated on her with multiple people for the last two years of our relationship while away at college. And I loved her - I really did, but I *needed* someone THERE to tell me I was attractive to feel wanted, etc. She never found out about the cheating that I did even to this day - but she broke up with me for other reasons, namely she found another guy in the same town and she was only 18 at the time and wanted to live a full life.
So we broke up and I was devastated. Why, with all my cheating was I so devastated? I reflect now and see that it was because I was rejected and unwanted - because I had the feeling of *needing* her. I was a mess for about two years after that - jumping from one girl to the next, involved in a couple 4-6 month relationships as well. I probably dated 25 women in the two years following that breakup.
Then something happened in the summer of 2004. I found myself spiritually and emotionally and really LOVED myself. I really truly found out who I was and I was HAPPY with MYSELF. For the first time ever I was GAL without another woman and found out who I was and I loved that. I was content, happy, and good. I dated a girl that summer and fell deeply in love with her after finding myself. She broke up with me and I was just FINE. It hurt, but I was good and fine because I loved myself.
Then shortly after, I met my W in the fall of 2004 and it was history from there.
History has repeated itself for me again.
There is nothing wrong with feeling pleased when you get a compliment. We ALL like getting compliments. But your need is very, very deep to be wanted and you should figure out why. Until you do, you will keep cycling through these patterns and you never will have a stable R with yourself or anybody else in an intimate sense.
It is way too much work to be with somebody so needy. As a woman I can say it's disgusting and a turn off. If any woman tells you otherwise they are messed up too. It's exactly why I question what your OW is really all about. No 26 year old in their right mind would go near a man that is not legally separated or divorced, in mediation with their W, has a young kid and is financially struggling as you say you are. It's just not normal behavior for a young woman who claims she has her whole life in order. No normal or well adjusted woman would be okay with you telling her that your W is still in the picture and you aren't sure where things are going. Something is very wrong with this picture. What is it? If I had to guess it probably has lots to do with the fact she has reached a high position in her career at a young age. There is little else for her to obtain other than a R. Because she may feel like she *needs* a R she is okay with (A) your neediness (which can be confused for desire and somebody with long term potential) or (B) settling for less than what she deserves. Who knows but the thought has crossed my mind when reading about her.
My guess is she is needy too. And when you put two needy people together you are create a bond of codependency that will never be broken and eventually the R will cycle to a very bad place. Add in the fact you still have a W waltzing around in the background and you are looking at a red hot mess waiting to happen.
How can you fall *deeply* in love with somebody over the course of ONE summer which is roughly 8 weeks? You can feel deep in lust or like but what you were feeling was all emotional and not real deep love. That level of love takes years to develop. But your emotions guide so many of your thoughts and feelings and actions I am not sure you are able to tell the difference.
Your self esteem must be low and that is understandable given the fact your W had an affair. But as you said this has been an ongoing problem for you long before your W came along. Maybe if you figure out why then things can change if you work at them.
But really think about how you react to any sort of attention from anybody. Remember the guy at the bank who gave you his card? You came here and reported it like you were king... just lapping up the attention.
All I am saying is if you want to try and rebuild your marriage you have to start off by not *needing* it. It doesn't even sound like you really want it all that much or at the very least you are very confused about it. One day you are over it and the next day you are trying to be better. And I bet that is a confusing place to be.
If you like the idea of being needed why not direct your energies to something more positive. Go volunteer - you will be needed and appreciated beyond belief and you will feel good.
You say you are attractive, confident and so on but if you really felt that way you wouldn't need to hear it from somebody else. It's nice to hear it, I think we can all agree on that, but needing it at such a deep level is something different.
Only you have the power to break this cycle. It will be the only way to rebuild your M. But you really should also do it for you.
I agree CG that I have to break this cycle of self-neediness. It's not good. There was a point in my life where that didn't exist - and I was content. It took me a long time to get there and somehow I've lost myself along the way.
You may be right about me wanting to make the small gestures my W makes a bigger deal than they really are because I *need* them to bigger than they really are. Or, maybe I'm just highly perceptive to changes in demeanor or actions. Either way, I probably do latch onto them more than I should with hope.
I still have hope for my M. The demeanor these past few weeks after my hospital stay have been noticeably different from my W. We interact better and seem to be actually not be at each other's throats about everything. I don't know if that is a direct result of my actions or not, but it looks like it is. I'm not going out of my way to do everything possible and smother and care for her, but I am thinking a few steps ahead and doing things that are decent as a person towards her.
It may be that she is just being nice and coordial and that's it. I don't know what she's thinking. I can only speak to her actions, which have been different than before now. Not much, but noticeable. I don't think she is "thawing" but she is testing the waters. What for, I don't know. I don't know her motivation, and frankly no one here can really know either.
As far as Professor Cat Lady, I'm not sure what I'm really doing there also. Part of me thinks it is an EA. Part of me thinks it is just me moving on. I just don't know how I feel anymore about all of this. Maybe part of me is indeed using her to fuel my own self-worth and post-bomb grief relief. I don't know if I am leading her on or not either. I don't know how I feel anymore.
No normal or well adjusted woman would be okay with you telling her that your W is still in the picture and you aren't sure where things are going.
I am going to agree with CG here. No woman in a "right" mind would want to be involved with anyone who says they are not sure of where the relationship they are presently in "is going."
No normal or well adjusted woman would be okay with you telling her that your W is still in the picture and you aren't sure where things are going.
I am going to agree with CG here. No woman in a "right" mind would want to be involved with anyone who says they are not sure of where the relationship they are presently in "is going."
That's probably because I haven't told her that.
If you were really "moving on" then mediation would be done, you and your W would have a set and concrete plan in place for all aspects of the divorce and nothing would be in limbo. If you were really "moving on" you would not be on a quest to be a "better man" for your W. If you were really "moving on" you would not be wondering why your W does or says anything.
Is your W testing the waters or seeing how short a leash she still has you on? I guess only you can decide that.
When some work is required your W bails... she acted in a deplorable fashion both before, during and after Retro. She bailed on you when you were sick. She was not too pleased about the settlement the mediator told her about. But now that she needs a few things done she is "testing the waters?". I don't think so.
Either way you need to really forget about your W and the OW for a while. If anybody questions if they are in fact having an affair then chances are they ARE having an affair. If the conversations and time you spend with OW would not be things you would do in front of your W then yes, you are having an affair.
Do what you want but don't mask an affair under the guise of "moving on".
In a way I think you thrive on the drama your W creates because drama in a sick way translates to need. And you like to be needed. So you get to be needed, your W gets to act like a nutcase and everybody is "happy".
Im just saying that such highs and lows are not attributes that help a R get repaired or evolve at all. Its more of the same.
You said there was a brief time in your life where you didn't have such a deep level of self need. What was different in your life then? What was present that is missing now?
Look - we ALL have to find a balance between the "bad and good" before we can really conquer the bad. For me it's my anxiety. For you it's your neediness. It's NOT easy but really picking apart the particulars (at least for me) is the first step.
As long as anxiety is part of my life other parts of my life will suffer. As long as deep need is part of your life other aspects of your life will suffer. So we both have some work to do and some balance to attain... right?
I ended things with Professor Cat Lady just now. It was the right thing to do.
I didn't feel right seeing her when she could be so emotionally invested in me, and the same goes for me. I don't know what came over me tonight to end things with her, but it felt like the right thing to do.
So, that's that.
How did she take it? What did you say?
She took it very well. Understood very well too. I told her that I needed time to figure out who I was, and that I wasn't happy with the person I was right now... and any relationship that I entered wouldn't be a good idea right now because it would be inevitably doomed.
She actually said she felt the same way, and that she herself needed to take some time to herself. She's been swamped with work, been sick lately, and felt like she needed time to herself too.
All in all, it went very well. It was a nice conversation. I felt like I was DB myself during the whole thing. But, alas, it's over.
I miss the vets. This board is dying.
If you feel the board is dying what are YOU doing to make it better besides complaining about how it is dying?
What do you expect the "vets" to say at this point, really?
I've been around about as long as anybody, but at this point, I'm just reading along waiting for the other shoe to drop. I've actually never seen anyone have a near death experience just from dating someone new! John and the wife are always full of surprises, so I can't figure out any way to give advice.
ow that we have the update about cat lady, what's the current state with your W?
John,
Kudos for getting rid of Cat Lady ... It was the right thing to do while you ar still in the M. I agree with everything Citygirl said...
It just takes time, to keep working your plan consistently, one day at a time...
Time2
Right now my W and I are communicating a litle better. The last time that I saw her which was on Wednesday morning when I dropped S4 off I gave her 4 blueberry muffins that I made (she doesn't think I could ever cook) the night before with S4. I just gave them to her and told her that they were whole grain with real blueberries. She kind of laughed a little and said, "Oh, now we've got a little Martha Stuart?"
I talked to her later that day and she said she LOVED the muffins. She asked me how I made them, and jokingly said to bring over some more. That was a nice touch I guess. Her family is in town since I have S4 for thanksgiving this year and I gave up one of my days so she could have him with them. I mentioned something about meeting up for desert one night so I could see him and she seemed OK about it.
Yesterday I mentioned the meetup for desert again and said, "It really isn't that big of a deal at all if it can't happen, but it would be nice. I just wanted to give you as much notice as possible so if it could happen you would have plenty of time to plan while your family was in town." She said she didn't know the plans. Then when we hung up, she didn't say ILY which has happened the last two days.
She called me later that evening before her class to discuss the desert deal and was upset about it given that her family drove in 8 hours away and was only going to be here for 3 days and "you are taking S4 away from them when they have such limited time." I validated and said that she was right, I didn't want to make a big deal of it and that it was fine not to see him. She seemed suprised I didn't argue and told her she was right and quickly lightened her mood. I then told her that I thought that lately I wasn't sure if I wanted to ILY anymore because it put pressure on her and I didn't want that. I wanted everything to be smooth sailing, and all I needed to know was if she wanted to say it anymore. She replied that she has just been annoyed lately and didn't say it and knew that was wrong of her to do... that she did love me and wanted to say it and it was wrong of her to let emotions stop her from saying it.
Then in the most sincere way possible she said, "I love you, John." That was nice of her.
So pleasantries is the first step in all of this for now.
LRT doesn't work with my W. So, I'm moving to the plan of real giving with no expectations of it in return from her. It will be tough, but I see that it has some positive impact in the past week or so. I'm willing to keep testing this until it doesn't work anymore. I haven't tried this yet, really. Honestly, it makes me feel like a good man to do these unprompted things for her.
John,
I'm really glad to see you are being solution-oriented. Real giving is truly where it's at. And you have evidence that you are on the right track:
It will be tough, but I see that it has some positive impact in the past week or so. I'm willing to keep testing this until it doesn't work anymore.
and
Honestly, it makes me feel like a good man to do these unprompted things for her.
john--it demonstrates that you ARE a good man, a good husband and a good dber. It makes you a success.
If you aren't doing so yet....please give advice on the board.
There are 2 newbies who can use someone like YOU on their team.
Bman... and HB Sailor.
Keep up the good work!
It really feels different this time folks. I've pulled away, or am pulling away, yet I'm looking at this from another perspective. I am taking time to get to know myself again, but in that process I've discovered that I wasn't an award winning husband and father. So, I'm changing that.
Her family has been in town since last Wednesday and I gave up my days so S4 could spend them with her family. Yesterday I was supposed to play in the finals for the State Amateur golf tourney, but it was postponed until today. I called her and let her know that it was postponed and she said she had to work during the time of the tourney but would ask her Aunt to watch our son.
I thought about that yesterday and when I spoke to her last night I asked her if she had asked her Aunt yet if she would watch our son. She said she had not, and I said, "Good, because I'm not going to the tourney tomorrow. It's more important to me to spend time with S4." It's true. I haven't seen my child for 4 days and was about to give up my only day this week (Sunday) so I could go golf. That's not the man I want to be.
I don't know if she understands or even noticed what I gave up to take our S4, but it is definitely a 180 for me. The old John would have just went and played in the tourney. It doesn't matter to me, he's here with me now and I'm happy.
So after I told her that I wouldn't be going to the tourney she said that the car was in the shop and I would have to come pickup our S4. I told her that was no problem at all, and asked her what time she worked. We chatted and then I told her I would give her a ride to work after picking S4 up and we could just go from there.
Saw her just now when I dropped her off at work. I probably shouldn't have but I tested a little and on the car ride by saying "Ohh it's so cold this morning!" and reached over grabbed her hand and said, "Oh you're warm". Didn't meet any resistance. Then when she got out of the car, she initiated one of those crappy cheek kisses that we all hate. She hasn't done that in a month of so. Things felt a lot less tense, I can feel the tension kind of subsiding.
Now, onto the subject of giving each other space. I'm not pursuing anymore at all. I'm just trying to be the best version of John that I can be. That means that I do nice things for my wife, because that's the John I want to be. I can feel myself getting just a little bit stronger everyday, but it is a long process.
Good Luck.
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Maybe. Maybe not. I have felt used before but I do not feel like that right now. I feel like she is slowly reaching out to me. I could be dead wrong, but this is the only progress I've made in months.
It is good to focus on the positives, the baby steps....and that's what you've gotten. When you build on that.....eventually you get the butterfly effect.....and things get better at a faster rate. Good job!
This is getting kind of ridiculous. The mod edited Dane's post - in which he had a contradictory view and another perspective. Dane was afraid I was being a doormat. Although I don't agree, I solicit and welcome everyone's feedback because it actually makes me STOP AND THINK about what I am doing.
Tonight was alright. I usually speak to W for a few moments after S4 talks to her on the phone. We chatted as usual about our days, and I mentioned that I really enjoyed playing with S4 today and was happy that I forfeited my golf tournament today to do so. She then said, "Yeah, when you told me yesterday that you might play in that tournament I though it was kind of crappy since you hadn't seen S4 for a few days."
My response was, "Yeah, that's not the person that I want to be. I might have gone ahead and gone before, but that's not the person I want to be anymore. I want to take advantage of any time I can spend with my family."
Trying to shine...
I then asked her to go to dinner with me tomorrow night to talk about things and my recent stuff going on. We haven't really talked since I got out of the hospital. She said why don't we just talk about it on the phone, and I said that I didn't want to. I would much rather talk in person.
She said, "I don't know. The last few times we got together it wasn't good and we argued and I don't want that again."
I said, "I have nothing to argue with you about anymore. I would appreciate if we could have dinner and talk."
She accepted, so we'll see.
Excellent! Spend most of your time LISTENING to her, though.
Great advice on listening. A WAS wants to be heard. That is one I learned. As it was once put to me, they become more selfish in WAS mode, probably because they are tired of their needs not being met.
I hear you on the editing. The good news is the experts are spending more times on these boards, I would personally prefer that maybe they point out why some things people are posting aren't in-line with DB and isn't good advice versus just wiping it out...but it is what it is...
Good luck, you've certainly been through quite a sitch of twists and turns
That's a good point everyone - to ask her leading questions intent on listening for the answers. I'm sure I can do that. Then, validate. validate. validate.
You sound better John. Just be careful in explaining your actions to her. She will think you are doing them for the wrong reasons. "Hey look I'm not going to the tournament... so I can see our son...." Let your ACTIONS do the talking for you. It will carry more weight. If you tell her then she will think you're are only doing it to get her attention.
At dinner. Validate. But let her chase you. Hold your ground in order to gain back the respect that has been lost.
Gd Luck.
Thanks PMA. I saw her this morning at drop off and when saying good bye I said, "I'll see you later tonight" and she said OK. So it looks like we're still on for tonight...
She called me at work today and asked me to fax (again) something medical related and I was happy and chipper to do so. After doing so I called her and let her know it was done. She seemed very thankful.
Kindness is a first step in all of this mess.
I put my wedding ring back on. It has been off for at least 6 weeks now. I felt like it was the right thing to do. I am still M to my W and dedicated to my family. When I took it off I was angry and hurt, and that's not a good enough reason. Even though she may not be in this M, I'm still M to her and I will continue to show my dedication to this family.
Again. Remember cat and mouse. Be the mouse not the cat. if you pursue you might get her back but she will still be in control. You need to make sure she respects you for you and will not take advantage. So take things slow. If you are detached then she cant pull your strings.
Learn from what you just posted.
You said you took your ring off because you FELT hurt and angry. Your emotions guided you.
Now you are putting it back on because you FEEL it's the right thing to do. Emotions guiding you again.
You don't need a ring to show dedication to a family. All you need is action based on good sense and not feelings.
How will you handle it if your W brings up an R talk tonight? Don't listen to your feelings... act on LOGIC. And logic says you or your W are not in any place to be talking about the R.
If my W brings up R talk tonight then I will validate. She has seen changes lately and has commented on them. I'm sure that will come up undoubtedly.
Yes, I put my ring back on because it FEELS like the right thing to do. But, I also want my actions to show as well. For me putting the ring back on is an action. It's an action to myself to show and remind myself that I'm dedicated to this until it is over.
Man, I hate not being able to edit posts....
I've been through a lot in the past few weeks. I almost died in the hospital and was put on a ventilator for 3 days. I've also been getting terrible advice from my mentor (who is no more) in a men's group that I belong to. I switched mentors and that has had a positive impact on who I am.
I also saw my shrink who put me on different meds, and said I have general anxiety disorder. They have helped tremendously. I have a set of meds for everyday use, and then an "emergency" med for the really hard times. I've managed very well with them and they are making a good impact.
Previously my anxiety would get the best of me and I would call her and either whine or lash out which hasn't happened in a few weeks.
She has seemed generally concerned about my health especially since my hospital stay and I want to let her know what is going on with that in regards to my meds, men's mentor, and my near death hospital stay which we haven't really discussed.
JOhn
If it is your intention to show up to dinner with your W wearing your wedding ring, you might want to rethink that. Asking her out was enough pressure to begin with. Wearing the ring might be too much for her.
I agree. Can also come off controling again. She doesnt want to be controled. She wants to be let go and given her freedom. Once she gets it she comes back running. Keep on doing what works. Not what YOU FEEL works. Liek CG said. Doing what works in using LOGIC.
PMA
Other than asking you for favors and accepting an invitation to go out with you (and IMO you sort of had to cajole her to accept) your W hasn't given you any indication she is ready to move forward.
As a woman I can tell you when you are already on the fence about a man and they do ANYTHING that resembles pursuit - it's a major turn off. It feels like pressure and suffocation and it becomes VERY easy to get off the fence and decide.
Don't try and create an artificial bond if it's not yet there.
Fair enough. Maybe the ring is too much for tonight, I agree.
I want to wear it for myself, but I also understand that if she sees it that may be too much for her.
And you're right about her not giving any indication of moving forward. She did show indication right after I got out of the hospital, but I took that a little too far to mean she was thinking about coming home. I think she just wanted to talk about us, and maybe where we are going in all of this and possibly rebuilding slowly something. I took it too far and thought she meant moving back home - which she quickly shut down on and we didn't have that talk.
I think my message tonight will be the following if it is brought up:
- Neither of us are ready to move back in, there are a lot of trust issues that still reside and I would like to work on that first
- I've had terrible advice from my men's group mentor, and give her examples
- I'm on different meds from the doctor who's said I have GAD
- Almost dying was not fun, and has made an impact on who I want to be and who I am. I don't want to waste another day being angry or hurt
- I've made the mistake of expecting her to do the work required and take the initiative to fix all of this, which I won't make again. I'll just work on me which I should have been going on all along rather than focusing on her.
- Validate. Validate. Validate.
IMO you do an awful lot of mind reading when it comes to your W.
I guess I don't understand why you always feel your W *wants* to talk about where things are going. Is it because YOU want to talk about that? In this case I am not sure it's so bad NOT to know.
It is very annoying to always have to talk about something when you don't want to or are not sure what is next. Sometimes it is best just to be and let things happen in a more organic fashion. It is VERY upsetting to feel so boxed in by feelings and desires if the feeling is not mutual. It's a real killer of anything positive.
Until your W knocks on your door and says she is ready to come home and is ready to do the work to reconcile AND she has a clear plan on her participation in that venture then leave things be. Your W knows exactly how available you are.
See, John - your list is exactly what some of us are trying to point out.
Your ACTIONS will exhibit all of those things. Words mean nothing. Your W will eventually see your anxiety has lessened. Hearing about it hardly has the impact of SEEING it.
Telling her you are changed after the hospital is not necessary - just change and go about your business if you feel something new is in order.
I really hope you consider a woman's viewpoint - she will not be impressed with talking - keep quiet and let your actions say it all. All this talking is like beating a dead horse.
I think my message tonight will be the following if it is brought up:
- Neither of us are ready to move back in (mind reading), there are a lot of trust issues that still reside and I would like to work on that first (Actions and boundaries)- I've had terrible advice from my men's group mentor, and give her examples (pursuing, convincing, excusing)- I'm on different meds from the doctor who's said I have GAD (more pity - opposite show of strength and respect)- Almost dying was not fun, and has made an impact on who I want to be and who I am. I don't want to waste another day being angry or hurt (let actions speak, more excuses)- I've made the mistake of expecting her to do the work required and take the initiative to fix all of this, which I won't make again. I'll just work on me which I should have been going on all along rather than focusing on her.
- Validate. Validate. Validate.
dont put up with. darn editing.
John,
CityGirl has given you great advice, personally I think it is too soon to have a one on one dinner with your W. However, since you are please don't bring up how you have changed, R issues or blaming a mentor for bad advice. This will appear weak and manipulating in the eyes of your W. Talk about your son, her school, work...anything but the planned topics that you outlined in your previous post.
Last night was a mild success I would say. We ate dinner together at a quiet restaurant (basically had the place to ourselves). We talked a lot about my hospital stay which she wasn't involved in, my men's group, and I took ownership of how I had treated her in the last few months. I let her know that regardless of everything I've always loved her, but until now wasn't able to love her in the way she needed to be loved.
The basic message that came across from her was that a lot had gone on and she had a lot of anger still built up for me and she was having a very difficult time letting that go. Oddly enough her words were, "And getting past all that is hard and I would have to get through that in therapy." That's the first time SHE has mentioned going to therapy for herself. I'm happy for her.
The other basic message was that she was afraid that too much had happened and not only was she not ready to date me, spend a lot of time with me, or anything like that, but she needed to get over some things if she could and would let me know when she was ready again, if ever. She also said that she was so very broken that she didn't want to be with anyone at all. I validated her feelings and told her that I wanted to love her in the way she needed to be loved - and I was here to meet her emotional needs.
I think she said at one point for me not to wait around on her and make my end goal to be with her, but just to be a better man. That if my end goal I was working towards was to be with her again, I would probably be let down because it isn't probable. That was difficult to hear, but I validated that with her.
She likened the fact that coming back to me was difficult because it was as if she went to a restaurant and got food poisoning. It'd be difficult to go back and eat at that restaurant ever again. I validated her feeling that way, but put in a nice, "Well, this restaurant is under new management." She kind of chuckled.
The subject of OW came up, and I told her that I was no longer talking with her and explained that whole situation to her. She said, "I don't care. We're separated, you can do whatever you want. I don't care." I told her that it was fine for her to feel that way, but I wasn't going out there to date anyone. Not only was I here to work on myself, but I am a man of integrity and I will be faithful to my wife as long as I can because that is the man that I want to be. She seemed lukewarm on that.
She cried a bit throughout all of this, as did I. At the end of dinner she said, "I'm glad I came tonight. I didn't really want to. But, I feel like for the first time in a very long time we're both on the same page." I guess my validating worked. She also talked a lot about her work and other things going on, laughed quite a bit, smiled too. I haven't seen her laugh or smile in months, and it made me happy to see her that way again if only for a few moments.
Some through dinner, car ride, we held hands. She dropped me off at my house because she needs the car today and I saw just how broken she really was. She's pretty far gone, people. I've done a lot of damage to her, and she's done a lot of damage to herself. Then when she was getting ready to leave she was crying a little and I reached up with my hand to wipe away a tear from her face and she moved away quickly and in a stern voice said, "Don't touch me!" It was very weird and out of character. I said goonight and she said ILY.
She has a lot of things going on with her that she needs to work through. Quite a lot. I'm feeling sad for her today.
EDITED - This forum exists to help those who come looking for encouragement and support during a difficult time in their lives. Your ideas and suggestions are welcome. However, you must treat everyone with respect, refraining from rudeness -even if or when you may not agree with what they are saying or doing in their lives. You must comply with the
DivorceBusting.com Board Rules if you would like to continue the privilege of posting here.
Godspeed. PMA
EDITED - This forum exists to help those who come looking for encouragement and support during a difficult time in their lives. Your ideas and suggestions are welcome. However, you must treat everyone with respect, refraining from rudeness -even if or when you may not agree with what they are saying or doing in their lives. You must comply with the
DivorceBusting.com Board Rules if you would like to continue the privilege of posting here.
EDITED - This forum exists to help those who come looking for encouragement and support during a difficult time in their lives. Your ideas and suggestions are welcome. However, you must treat everyone with respect, refraining from rudeness -even if or when you may not agree with what they are saying or doing in their lives. You must comply with the
DivorceBusting.com Board Rules if you would like to continue the privilege of posting here.
John,
She has conflicting emotions, it's hard for her. Women's bodies and emotions are just wired differently than men's...and when they're upset women can give come close/go away signals. Watch her body language more than her words. Let her lead the way.
Hang in there...you are making some progress.
My W just has a ton of built up anger and resentment towards me, and it showed last night/today. She called me after her class just to chat, and we talked for about 20 minutes or so on her drive home. It's not like her to do that, and it was nice of her.
She mentions in passing that the school district that I'm is switching to traditional calendar next year instead of year round schools. I tell her I think that might be good, who knows. She then tells me she prefers year-round schooling, she's been doing research, etc.... and she would prefer that if possible. I told her I didn't agree with that necessarily, and then I heard her anger and resentment boil on the phone.
I felt her lashing out at me, bring that anger from below and arguing with me. I stayed calm and cool, but she couldn't. She tried to get a rise out of me and I wouldn't give it to her. She then tried to give me the whole, "you just want control over all of this just like before and have it your way, blah blah" stuff. I told her no, I would do some research but as of now I didn't agree with her. That didn't make me a controlling SOB, I just disagreed with her. She then threw an F-bomb at me in some sentence and I told her that the conversation was over, this wasn't productive and for her to have a good night and hung up.
She called back, and I answered. She then began to explain how frustrated and angry she was at me and I validated and told her I understood. But, I wouldn't talk anymore about it tonight because it wasn't a good time to do so. She said something trite and hung up.
Today she came and picked S4 up and took his jacket that I had hanging up for him to wear back to her house. I asked her if she could please bring it back next time because out of the 5 jackets he has, only 1 was left here since we've been switching back and forth and swapping child/clothes. She took it defensively and started to complain about the clothes he wears over to my place and how I should send him back in the same clothing he came over with. I told her that wasn't realistic because we swap every other day and I couldn't do laundry like that, nor did it make sense for S4 to wear the same clothing two days in a row. She basically turned it into a power struggle with me ending up saying, "OK, we'll see if we can do better on this."
She just has all this anger. Self-admittedly she can't let it go. She just has serious anger management issues that now I'm recognizing and in all honestly am empathic to them. It's weird.
Just now she calls me concerning the car that is in the shop (we've been sharing a car for 3 days) and says that it will be ready and she can pick it up later and will get me from work to go there. Then she starts crying and tells me that she's upset she has to drive a busted car and she's been looking at apartments all day and they smell like cat piss. She keeps crying and all I could really say was, "I'm sorry you're sad."
Ummm... Just a woman's perspective here.
I think the school issue is a hot button for many of us Moms.
Even when my kiddos were old enough to be in middle school, summers stressed me every year. Even though my H would deal with it sometimes, it was basically "my" thing to juggle. I did not want her just parked in front of the TV set all summer, and even with some flexibility from my employer I was a nervous wreck by August juggling camps, playdates, etc.
I did resent my husband for not having to worry about it, or thinking it was OK to plop them on the couch all day. So, I felt very torn...wanting to work and contribute financially, but also wanting my kid to have a good summer. On top of that... The laundry, making a decent home for your family and adequete nutritious meals that kids need -/ WOW, most women who work just come home to the 2nd shift of housework, kids, etc.
So although year round school may SEEM like an innocuous issue, it's one of my hot buttons. Being a GOOD mom is the hardest job on the planet. Especially if your spouse travels a lot and works all the time.
Not sure about your sitch, but usually the W has to deal with these big school calendar issues.
Personally, I think it's great she felt safe enough to express this to you.
She called me tonight, twice, and I didn't pick up. I called her back and she was very sad on the phone.
She said that she needed to go back on her anti-depressants. I totally agree - she's mood swing central.
Then, she apologized for the way she treated me the past two days. She never, ever says she's sorry even when she's wrong.
I tried to be there for her emotionally tonight, which she's always complained about in the past. It seemed to work I think
