Now I'm Walking Away Part 3 - DivorceBusting.com

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Not a good Saturday. Kids were fighting/rebellious to start, neither W nor I were on the same page with them. After things settled down we went shopping for clothes, which was fine. Got home, started doing laundry, planning the week's meals, and other chores.

During a break in the action, W mentioned something about my sister, whom she works with. W has issues about how she thinks my side of the family views her, and I tried to lead her here in dealing with it. Did a good job, validated, made her know my feelings, that I support her. Then she started talking about being financially secure, saying "You may think it's shallow of me to be concerned with money..." I validated really well here, and it seemed to be going well.

Then it got out of control, and I couldn't delay her about talking about the R. We started talking about me leaving again which got her all melty wife. I wasn't as detached as I was the other night, because I hadn't prepared myself for talking about it today.

I told her my plans about moving out, about our finances, about custody stuff, everything. She seemed really disappointed when I said that I wasn't sure I could be friends with her; I could be friendly, cordial, civil, but I didn't know if I could do more than that.

She asked if I'd be able to come over and have dinners as a family, play Monopoly, etc. I said that might not be the best idea for me or the girls, as it'd confuse them. That the time I spent with them might be better just me and them.

I wasn't strong. I was (am) wracked by doubts, and they showed. W just wants our family to stay intact for the girls sake, at least til we've paid off our debt. Kept saying "I'll do anything you want" meaning sex. I told her that I really understood how she felt in June when she wanted to leave; the guilt, the doubt, the fear of making the worst mistake in your life.

Didn't sleep very well. Both worried about the girls, and worried about each other.

Now I look at my budget, and can't see how I thought I could afford an apt while keeping the house for the girls. The money just isn't there! My whole goal of keeping my daughters in the only home they've known is evaporating.

Sorry to hear finances are tight.

If they weren't so tight, my suggestion would be to take yourself and the kids and go do some inexpensive weekend trip (go see some cheap touristy crap: zoos, caves, etc--something 200 miles or less away), and stop thinking about this for a bit. Sometimes... if you can't solve a problem that you are obsessing over, it's time to take a break from it.

And leaving your wife alone (without the kids) would give her some time to think about something else too.

I'm thinking your wife wants to try, but you need to lead, but everybody is tied up in the present struggle, and you both need a little shift in perspective.

She was away from both me and the girls for a week with no real change in her feelings.

We could afford a weekend trip someplace; money's not that tight. I just can't afford to move out unless we sell the house shortly after.

I'll have to think about selling our house. We could afford two decent appts with CS and alimony for her. Not as good for the girls as a really nice house, but sometimes life doesn't work out the way you plan...

Hey Pin,

I really feel for you man. I am in the same position, not that I wanted to let W stay in the house with the kids, but I was hoping that I might be able to. Not enough equity for either of us to buy the other out and refi, plus, the payments are too high for it to make sense. We will likely both be renting too. Although I will be renting a house. I don't know what W is going to do.

Good luck man. This all makes me sick. All you can do is the best you can do. I know that you will do fine for you and your kids.

Hang tough.

I guess it was just a fantasy to be able to keep our house. Part of me probably thought that I'd be moving back in eventually. Not detached...

So now I have to figure out how soon we can sell, when to put it on the market, and so forth. I'm sure that'll change her feelings, as she'll have to be uprooted as well. So I expect either spew, or more of her "I'll do anything" to try and get me to stay. Or anger at our finances.

But I've also realized our debt isn't (cash-flow wise) a really big issue. It's about a car payment a month, so having it all paid off won't make a huge diff in our finances. It's just that we've got a house that almost requires two incomes.

Man what a horrible night. Clouded my judgement completely, made me realize how little I've detached. Even worrying about my kids in a panic mode. I knew I didn't have the energy to handle the situation, but I still fell into it. Sigh. Coach was right on.

Now I'm much better. Looked over the finances, saw where I can squeeze blood from a stone, and I can still move out by Nov 5. It'll be awfully tight, but once we sell our house, much better. Neither of us will be living like kings, but at least I'll be out.

She's not going to like the idea of selling the house and moving into an apartment, but I don't like it either. Life doesn't always work out the way you plan...

Stop following your feelings..

Just because you sometimes "feel" a certain way doesn't make it so... Feelings change..

Quit worrying about this "detached" nonsense..(I'm detached, I am not detached, I thought I was detached, I now am detached, I guess I am not detached...) That is all silly self talk that will get you nowhere fast. ACTION speaks. Doesn't matter what you feel or think.. Just follow your plan and keep emotionally disciplined.

Why are you selling the house before you give Retrouvaille a try? Can't it wait 2 months?

Hey PH,
I wish u the best things will work out in some way. I'm moving to a new place next month. It might be a new start for me it will be busy as usual with,work, the move and school which is rough this term. My stich is no different than before except W & I are talking more not that it matters. My S is excited about the new place. So enjoy the time with your D's as it seems u always do. Well takecare H!

Originally Posted By: Lotus

Why are you selling the house before you give Retrouvaille a try? Can't it wait 2 months?

I won't be selling the house until spring. That'll let the girls finish up school, plus selling a house in the winter here sucks.

I mentioned Retrouvaille when we were talking two days ago. No interest at all on her part.

Originally Posted By: gucci loafer

Stop following your feelings..

Just because you sometimes "feel" a certain way doesn't make it so... Feelings change..

Quit worrying about this "detached" nonsense..(I'm detached, I am not detached, I thought I was detached, I now am detached, I guess I am not detached...) That is all silly self talk that will get you nowhere fast. ACTION speaks. Doesn't matter what you feel or think.. Just follow your plan and keep emotionally disciplined.

You're right on the money. I've spent too much of my life making decisions based on my feelings/urges at the time. Discipline and patience.

5K went really well. Realizing that races can become addictive. There's another run in Nov that I might do, but brrrrrr! It's going to be cold by then.

W was angry last night when we went to bed. We had gone over our budgets, and she's upset about how little money we'll have when I move out. And the idea of selling the house didn't sit very well. So she was pissed off when we went to bed. This morning she had calmed down, and was trying to be nice.

Going to turn in my application for the apartment today, and start trying to figure out what I'll really need in furniture and all the other living crap you need.

What happened to "I'll do anything for my children"? She can't go away for a 2 day weekend for her children?

Lotus,

I seriously think that she has a mental block about money right now. Can't think about our relationship clearly at all. She said that she can't separate her feelings for me from her feelings for the "family" meaning the girls. She spoke about how hard it was growing up with her dad's on again off again employment, how having to leave their dream house after 2 years was horrible.

So now she has to contemplate leaving her own dream house. I foresee spew and drama.

When I mentioned Retro to her, in her sister's hometown to boot, there was absolutely no reaction. No desire at all to work on US. I really think the marriage is dead.

Yeah, a lot of mind reading in there, I know...

I can't imagine how hard it is to look at her everyday? Oh yes I can!! When I moved out for 6 months from my 1st W, (she asked me to) It was tough. Paying for the house and an apt. Finally I said screw this, I'm paying for the house, I'm moving back in. And I did. It was hell. Seperate rooms, I had to watch as she built her "hope chest" of stuff to move with.
She was bitchy and angry at me. Fianlly I helped her move and as I went back to give her something that was left in the car she was already on phone with BF!
So I know what yoyur going through. Hang tough for your girls..

Yep, my girls and I will be fine. I won't see them as much as I do now, but I'll make the most of the time I have.

Nice PMA!!! Pin. Keep it up!!

Mine was so messed up she gave me the boys. The judge could not beleive it..

My W has mentioned numerous times how scared she is to take care of the girls by herself. Once I told her that if I had to choose between her having full custody and me having full, I'd choose her. She was really upset then...

Hey Pin,

I will ask a question here which I asked on another thread.

What do you think would have happened to you had your first DB move been to move out of your home?

I don't know. I still don't know what was really motivating my wife at the time; EA, general disillusionment, whatever.

I should have tried to get her to move out of the house, but she was really resistant to that idea.

I think it would have shocked her pretty badly if I had just packed up and moved out. Might have helped me heal faster too.

Hi Pinhead, just checking in to see how you're doing this week. Sorry to hear the direction things have gone. For what it's worth, I admire the effort you put into saving your M. You don't know all the emotions you might end up going through in the upcoming months - I would think in the future, it will help you to know you did absolutely everything in your power to save the M. I would think people some who leave too quickly would end up having a lot of long-term doubt and unanswered questions, than those who exhaust all their options first. I know that's why I tried so hard in my M. I didn't want to end up years later, looking back, wondering - "I wonder if I would have tried 'this' or 'that', if it would have made a difference...."

Stay positive, take care. FMV.

Yeah, I do feel like I've done everything short of walking out or pushing her out. I wasn't strong enough or confident enough in myself at the time to know I'd be ok. My girls will be ok too. And who knows, maybe there's something left that can be rekindled. I'm a hopeful guy by nature, probably too much so. But I sure can tell when something's not working, or making things worse.

Hello Pinhead

Still following your situation. There's something less than logical about your wife's attitude: she says she'll "do anything" to keep you with her, she's willing to ML without "feeling attraction", she's dead scared of being on her own with the girls, afraid of money matters... So why do you think she doesn't want to try thr "retrouvailles" weekend? It doesn't sound like a lot to ask of her if she's so desperate for you to stay. Is this a kind of "group therapy" thing? Is she too afraid of talking about private things in front of others? Have you asked her why she's not interested? Does she know that you'd really like to give it a try? Would it be possible to move out - give yourselves a break and a new perspective - but still aim at trying to get back together and making this weekend a goal?
Good luck. It's so hard to feel the love you have for someone crumbling due to their neglect and their turning away. Someone else told you to take a break from budgeting and ruminating on figures. Your W seems unable to think of anything else. Can you take a small break, break the routine before you really do go?
NCU

I don't know what it was about Retro that lead to no real reaction. She probably thinks it's just more MC. I mentioned it to her 2x, so I figure that's enough.

Moving out is mostly for me. I'd love it to be a tactic that brings her back, but I've tried so many tactics to be catnip to no avail. I really think that she'll just go on with life as best she can without me.

And I can't really wait much longer. I don't want to leave in the middle of the holidays, and if I want to move out by Nov 5th, I need to get my app approved soon.

After getting my oldest daughter's parent/teacher report, I'm really worried that it's affecting her poorly. I know her and I fight almost every morning, mostly my fault. So that has to stop...

Originally Posted By: pinhead

I wasn't strong enough or confident enough in myself at the time to know I'd be ok. My girls will be ok too.

Well, maybe that's what the last few months were about then. Doesn't sound like it was a waste of time then. So don't be worrying 'oh if only I left earlier' - if you had, you might not have made the personal gains that you did. The road to inner strength, confidence and self-acceptance is always bumpy and can hurt; I don't think it's supposed to be smooth.

Pinhead, I can sympathise about the children. They'll be affected, but I can see my own kids have been more affected by their Dad's unwillingness to explain or talk about the situation, the future with them, and by seeing him nasty and cold and rejecting of me, than by his leaving. If he'd been kinder and more open to me and to them, instead of refusing to explain or reassure, things would've gone better. I've done explaining on his part, in his absence, tried to be as loyal as possible, stress his love of them, but it's not his apptmt they really dislike, it's having a Dad who's all activities and taking them places, yet refusing to ta

... to talk about our situation or anything related. He behaves as though the eldest doesn't really exist anymore, and with the others as though the elephant in the sitting room wasn't really there, everything is hunky dory.

They've seen me sad, but I've never avoided any subject with them, been as honest as I can. So they know where they are with me, and they can trust and feel better.

So tell them everything in terms they can handle, don't leave any mysteries, and they'll be ok. That's what I'm trying to do. There are tantrums and tears, but they're calming down. And there's no OP in your situation, so it should be easier for you both.NCU

Pin.

There will always be plenty of 20/20 hindsight to go around.

Don't you think that you moving out would still have a similar effect on her?

I don't think you wasted time. You got to learn more about your sitch and her motives. You learned something.

We can't change past so why wonder about could'ves would'ves and maybes.

All roads lead to Rome.

Oh, I don't look back too much. XYZ made me think about it a bit, then you asked me. Past is prologue and all that.

So mathematically moving out now will work just as well as back then.

You're just a little older now.

That damn time we can't stop.

Originally Posted By: Lotus

What happened to "I'll do anything for my children"? She can't go away for a 2 day weekend for her children?

Lotus you should know just like the rest of us,
that the WAS tends to have their head in a fog,
how would you convince a WAS who is intent on leaving and having affairs to go away to a retrouvaille weekend with you, a weekend specifically intended to save your marriage - I don't see too many WAS's agreeing to that, there is no motivation and reward for them from their point of view, it goes against what they're trying to accomplish with leaving the marriage.

IMHO, a retro weekend benefits spouses in rocky marriages before one of them has made the decision to leave, you can ask a WAS to go to a retro weekend with you but the odds are against you with regards to them agreeing and actually going.

It's too tough a sell at that point.

Quote:

That damn time we can't stop.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

I guess she's not a WAS anymore since she's willing to stay, but for all the wrong reasons. More meltdowns last night, mostly because she can't understand why I won't stay until our debt is paid off (2 years).

Any way this is just her way of getting you stick around so you can see how good it can be? With the role reversal (you being the WAS and her the LBS) could she possibly have the right reasons to stay and is now grasping at anything to kick the can down the road?

I don't know. Last night she said again that I could date if I wanted to. This morning she said she was upset about not being able to count on me, rely upon me as a friend.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

I don't know. Last night she said again that I could date if I wanted to. This morning she said she was upset about not being able to count on me, rely upon me as a friend.

Sounds like she is very confused over her feelings.

What can you do to help her get it straight?

I'm leaving. She'll have lots of time to think about them. I'm giving her the space she asked for in June.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

I'm leaving. She'll have lots of time to think about them. I'm giving her the space she asked for in June.

Then it should not matter to her if you want to date or not.

It should not matter to her if you are her friend.

These are your decisions only, she should not "approve" od "disapprove" any of them.

It would be interesting to see what Sandi or Greek thought about all this. I agree with Pookie - lots of confusion going on here...I wish I had more to offer at this point.

If I recall right, Sandi was a WAW who wasn't involved with anyone, (no EA/PA) but just unhappy. Sounds a lot like my wife.

Originally Posted By: pookie69

Originally Posted By: pinhead

I'm leaving. She'll have lots of time to think about them. I'm giving her the space she asked for in June.

Then it should not matter to her if you want to date or not.

It should not matter to her if you are her friend.

These are your decisions only, she should not "approve" od "disapprove" any of them.

She was giving me permission to date while we lived together for the girl's sake.

And she doesn't want to lose my friendship; I've told her that I probably won't be able to be BFF with her.

Losing her best friend may shake her enough to get her mind straight.

Pin,

You mentioned that she would do anything for the kids.

Maybe she needs to be w/o you to know what "anything" means.

I totally understand your perspective with the finances.

Sandi (if you're reading),

Since your sitch had some similarities to my wife's, how would you view her actions lately? Just quirky behaviour or signs of something else?

Quote:

Last night she said again that I could date if I wanted to.

- no self-esteem

- she's having an affair, this is said to ease her guilt

- depression

I don't think I could let that go by, it speaks to your character and what kind of father to your girls you really are.

Coach,

This was the second time she's brought it up recently, and I again told her I had no plans to date while married, thinking it would be setting a horrible example for our daughters.

She has horrible self-esteem, and she also thinks she's developing an ulcer. I don't know about depression. And I have no intel regarding an affair, though she might have had one with her old boss (long gone). I really feel sorry for her and hope that our separation can give her some time to work on herself, but I've resigned myself to expecting her to stay the same.

She's almost as screwed up as I am. She's called me twice today, mostly for stuff that could wait.

Didn't realize there may be a possible OM Pin.

I wanted to say Hi to you. Hope your day is going well.

Busy day, yet too much free mental time.

I don't have any proof of an OM. She just seemed awfully friendly with her boss who has since moved to a diff city and job. Maybe that's got her depressed if she's going through EA/PA withdrawal. Again, I have no proof. Some of her behaviour the last two years fits the pattern of an affair: new clothes, hair coloring, makeup when she had previously never used much, etc. But I don't want to jump to any conclusions.

I think deep down she's just scared to death of being alone, being financially vulnerable, and being unhappy for the rest of her life. Yes, I know that's mindreading, but she's also said this. Almost as if she expects to be lonely and unhappy.

She can't think further along than a few weeks or a month at most; when she kept talking about me staying until we paid off our debt, I asked her what we'd do then. She said she had no idea, we'd cross that bridge when we got to it.

Pin,

If Coach says he smells A then you should look for EA.

To me your W seems like the one who would fall for that. Someone out there could be comforting her.

I have a friend whose W had an EA with a guy who actually helped him by talking sense to his W

Well, unless she's calling the guy at work, there's no contact. No email, no IM, no fB stuff. I could see her having an EA since she felt so unloved and neglected.

Tough day at work, lots of stress. And I'm stressed about moving out.

She had called me 2x throughout the day for stuff that wasn't very important. I told her we need to budget for summer daycare for the girls next year ($2K), and her reply was, "So, you're going to stay?" I said no, we just need to budget for it. Made dinner, W was very friendly, helpful.

After dinner we literally bumped into each other in the hallway, and I made flirted about it. Said that we might as well make the most of the days left together, wink wink. She made margaritas and we watched a show before heading to bed and ML. Yeah, cake-eating on my part. And on hers.

Got a good night's sleep.

Need to eat more protein, I've become too skinny. Want to add about 10lbs of muscle back on, take my weight up to about 190-195lbs.

Pin,

If John's thread would be considered hardcore, yours is becoming softcore.

What's going on here?

Quote:

She made margaritas and we watched a show before heading to bed and ML. Yeah, cake-eating on my part. And on hers.

Tag - you're it.

So does this jive with you becoming the WAS so she can feel you pulling away?

Quote:

"So, you're going to stay?" I said no

And the card she is going to play is_____________________?

Quote:

Said that we might as well make the most of the days left together, wink wink. She made margaritas and we watched a show before heading to bed and ML.

Didn't I predict this? When you know the other teams plays it's easier to handle it. Gucci advised- "Stick with your plan and be emotionally disciplined." She tested your resolve.

Did she kiss you?

Coach,

Sorry to Hijack but you mentioned a four or five step plan in a thread and I can't find it. I'm going through divorce.

be friend,

Date

Romance

I'm not accurate on these. Hopefully it jogs your memory.

Sorry for the Hijack pin.

Nope, no passionate kiss...

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Nope, no passionate kiss...

Hmmmm.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Nope, no passionate kiss...

Hmmmm.

Starsky

I agree this isn't how a woman acts who is serious about her man. The cat just caught the bird and is now just playing with it, can't decide whether to let it go or finish it off. She's bored, this bird was too easy to catch.

does she have a secret phone? another FB account?

She could have a secret phone, but not I haven't found it. I have a keylogger on her computer, no signs of anything fishy.

I think it's just her expecting me to cave again. As well as just enjoying ML.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

If I recall right, Sandi was a WAW who wasn't involved with anyone, (no EA/PA) but just unhappy. Sounds a lot like my wife.

She had an on line EA with an OM but she also has strong religious faith and lots of better judgement.

Oh, my mistake about Sandi.

Quote:

I think it's just her expecting me to cave again.

because last time she played this card what happened? She's doing what works. time to try the on-sides kick to start the second half.

Yeah, it's clear she expects me to cave. I made it really clear that ML was just for fun, not changing anything with me moving out. But she may see that as just more words...

But also, she's still not really initiating this stuff. Last night she had the chance to opt out, but didn't...

Quote:

I made it really clear that ML was just for fun

,

You know what is more clear? "We had better not do this anymore because I don't want to confuse you".

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Yeah, it's clear she expects me to cave. I made it really clear that ML was just for fun, not changing anything with me moving out. But she may see that as just more words...

But also, she's still not really initiating this stuff. Last night she had the chance to opt out, but didn't...

And you expect what?

You are sending her mixed messages. Let's ML while I'm still here before I'll be gone tomorrow.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Nope, no passionate kiss...

awkward to hear a man describe it like that.

Out of curosity, what will you do if the day you move out your wife changes the locks and her phone number and files for divorce?

SMq,

Just answering Coach's question. Why is it awkward for a man to use the word passionate? And I still sense that if you were married to my wife you would stay. Why not say what you would do instead of hiding behind vague hints?

If she did that, I'd get a locksmith to let me in. If she files, she files. I can't control her. If she changes her phone number, well, she'll have a hard time reaching me.

Actually Steve, a "passionate kiss" was Coach's benchmark for her being all in. That might have been further back in the thread.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

SMq,

Just answering Coach's question. Why is it awkward for a man to use the word passionate? And I still sense that if you were married to my wife you would stay. Why not say what you would do instead of hiding behind vague hints?

Really doesn't matter what I would do. I am a different man with different experiences and different dreams.
I do what I want to do because I can.

I point out certain things to you because they exemplify how you are driven by emotions not logic. Passion, and desire, for example, my first post to you read "You boys need to cut out the anger," yet another emotion. That may be all well and good in a "I stood tip toe on a little hill sort of way" but it is not working for you here. Didn't work for Keats either, did it? Fanny Mae never was attracted to him as much as he wanted her to be.

Remember, this a short term solution based approach. Approach it differently, logically.

Lets say this all falls through, your unhappy, your wife is unhappy, I don't see any progress being made, you end up divorced.

You have to support yourself, you have to support your kids, you'll owe your wife alimony, if you want someone to lust after you that'll cost you big money, can't drive a piece of crap if you want that lifestyle. On what? Passion, desire, emotion? That is not going to cut it. I laid it out for you in another post. Not that many girls out there looking for an emotional man. And if you find one, how are you going to deal with her hangups and ex-husband who owes her three months back child support? With emotion and co-dependence, maybe leave her to hook back up with your first wife?

You are a writer. Think about the situation from several different points of view. Like me, the third-person omniscient. LOL. Ever read, The Sound and the Fury?

Now if I was married to your wife would I stay? Don't know. Don't know her. From what you have written about her I think she should read Divorce Busting. A few of the chapters in there might help her to get this marriage back on track.

But if YOU want out then Just Do It. But do it in a logical and dignify manner. She is not a piece of chicken. Don't roll her around in bread crumbs before you fry her.

"But if YOU want out then Just Do It. But do it in a logical and dignify manner. She is not a piece of chicken. Don't roll her around in bread crumbs before you fry her." Steve McQueen

This is genius. True, concise, and hilarious.

After the dust settles and the emotions die down divorce still remains a very destructive act compared with saner/logical options. Moving out is always risky and may push her either way. Unfortunately these situations are by nature not driven by logic but by emotion.

Steve,

Thank you for being more clear. And you're right about me being driven by my emotions. I don't know if that's a new development since she told me she's unhappy, or if it's the way I've always been. Probably the latter. Thanks for a lot of food for thought.

A better couple of days with my girls. Working on controlling my temper/frustration. Very satisfied with how I'm dealing with both girls, especially in the morning when I'm tired.

W has been calling a lot more the last few days. Last night she talked about celebrating Christmas. This was in front of the girls at dinner. She also called me to ask if I thought it was a good idea to spend money on boots for D8. I told her that since she was doing the budget/finances now, she'd know better, but that I trusted her opinion, and thought the boots were a good idea that D8 had earned.

Last night after watching TV together we talked a lot in bed about writing, books we both like, building intomesee.

Yet today I'm still staring at the rental application on my desk...

Quote:

Yet today I'm still staring at the rental application on my desk...

Understand what the internal conflict is trying to teach you.

Originally Posted By: Coach

Quote:

Yet today I'm still staring at the rental application on my desk...

Understand what the internal conflict is trying to teach you.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't?

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Originally Posted By: Coach

Quote:

Yet today I'm still staring at the rental application on my desk...

Understand what the internal conflict is trying to teach you.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't?

Think win-win.

Not sure if it's win-win, but with either outcome I know I'll be fine. It's just that I'd prefer one outcome over the other...

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Not sure if it's win-win, but with either outcome I know I'll be fine. It's just that I'd prefer one outcome over the other...

So what's the matter. Your heart tells you one thing and your brain another?

Originally Posted By: pookie69

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Not sure if it's win-win, but with either outcome I know I'll be fine. It's just that I'd prefer one outcome over the other...

So what's the matter. Your heart tells you one thing and your brain another?

Not so much a conflict between heart/head, so much as just a ton of extraneous information, a ton of ambiguous information, just a lot of stuff to sift through. Knowing what is wheat, and what is chaff.

For example, I know I could get her to go to Retro. That would be leading, and she'd go, just to live up to her promise to do anything. But we all know there's a world of difference from her being focused on starting a new relationship with me and her doing what she thinks will keep me around.

Quote:

Your heart tells you one thing and your brain another?

Had a wise friend tell me (my W actually) this a few months back:
Your heart doesn't have a brain. Don't make decisions with your heart (Feelings, emotions, etc)

Quote:

For example, I know I could get her to go to Retro. That would be leading, and she'd go, just to live up to her promise to do anything. But we all know there's a world of difference from her being focused on starting a new relationship with me and her doing what she thinks will keep me around.

The old mind reading for the spouse trick, second time I fell for it this month.

Originally Posted By: gutwrenching

Quote:

Your heart tells you one thing and your brain another?

Had a wise friend tell me (my W actually) this a few months back:
Your heart doesn't have a brain. Don't make decisions with your heart (Feelings, emotions, etc)

Goes along with what Winston Churchill said.

Originally Posted By: gutwrenching

Quote:

Your heart tells you one thing and your brain another?

Had a wise friend tell me (my W actually) this a few months back:
Your heart doesn't have a brain. Don't make decisions with your heart (Feelings, emotions, etc)

I don't think you can ignore your heart and feelings though. Otherwise it's a no brainer for me to stay. Better finances, more access/time with my daughters, and companionship with my wife.

Originally Posted By: Coach

Quote:

For example, I know I could get her to go to Retro. That would be leading, and she'd go, just to live up to her promise to do anything. But we all know there's a world of difference from her being focused on starting a new relationship with me and her doing what she thinks will keep me around.

The old mind reading for the spouse trick, second time I fell for it this month.

Guilty as charged. So if she goes, be happy she's going? Go with a smile?

What's your goal? How will get there? What do you need to do?

Goal: reconcile with W
How: Become attractive to her

Either win her over with my sheer sex appeal and charm, or make her feel that she's lost me.

And I know that this question is mindreading at its worst, but what if I dump her, and though she might have been all in as best as she could, she gives up on us because I've walked?

Quote:

Either win her over with my sheer sex appeal and charm

Ok, so what's Plan B?

Couldn't help it, low hanging fruit.

I have seen Retro work when one spouse is reluctant or lukewarm. It doesn't work when the spouse in a A. I would present it as a plan because the current sitch isn't working, you are going because you have decided it gives you both a opportunity to see if this M could work. No pressure, no expectations and you want to be true to your values and beliefs concerning marriage and family.

So, here's my strategery:

Plan A: keep doing what I'm doing now. Developing intomesee and rekindling our friendship. Likelihood of success: 10%

Plan B: Move out, move on, don't let the door hit me in the butt: Likelihood of success: 25%

Plan C: Plan A + Plan Retro in January: Likelihood of success: unknown...

Plan C fits more with my values. Plan B plays more on my anger and emotions. Plan A plays more on my passive nature.

Of course the percentages are wild a$$ guesses.

Originally Posted By: Coach

Quote:

Either win her over with my sheer sex appeal and charm

Ok, so what's Plan B?

Couldn't help it, low hanging fruit.

A man has to know his limits...

Tough choices, Pin.

You will make the right one.

Hang in there!

"Mrs Pin,
I have been doing some thinking and here is what I have decided.

I have a proposal for you. I will hold off on moving out on the condition that "we" agree to attend the Retro sessions. I ask for nothing and offer no promises, but I think it would be a wise thing for us to attempt.

That is it. She either agrees or she doesn't......

Remember Pin, Counseling is known to help couples IF they both are willing participants. She now seems as if she would be a willing participant. Isn't that usually the first step in most issues? Being willing to find a solutiion...

Your leverage here is the fact that you offer nothing on your end except participation and that you have the moving out option as a backup. You are not doing this out of desperation like many other men in these situations. It is now more out of strength...

BIG DIFFERENCE...

AND..... IMPORTANT...

Do NOT overplay how great Retro is..

DOWNPLAY it...

Much better for her that she is pleasantly surprised by you not bragging it up or trying to sell her on it..

Come across as middle of the road, matter of fact and that you have no idea if it will work, but it is worth a shot...

On the other hand, concerning your chance of success above, those who complete the Retrouvaille weekend and all the Post sessions have an 80% chance of still being together 5 years later.

Retro was shot down. She now says that what she had said was that she had said was "I would do anything for my babies." Not that she would try to reconcile. That if she had to pretend to be a happy wife to make me happy, she would, including sex.

I told her that I misunderstood what she said and her intentions, and that have a fake marriage for the kids was a horrible idea; that if she was willing to go to Retro with an open mind and an open heart towards reconciliation, I think it might be valuable to us. She didn't want to work on "us." That sounds harsh, but it wasn't a harsh conversation, just both of us trying to clear the air.

She said that I was confused because I didn't understand that men and woman can be close, emotionally intimate friends without any romance. I disagree, but I didn't tell her that. Just listened to her, and said that I agree that it's very important for a couple to be close, intimate friends.

We talked a bit more, I said I was going to take the apt that's being held for me. She said she just needed to be able to think about everything, about how she felt for me separate from our daughters. That the time apart would be good, but costly financially. Talked about what I'd be taking, when I'd move, so on.

She stressed that this would be a non-legal thing; just a year at the most, not a set in stone separation. Knowing now, I see that she was really asking me those as questions, not statements. I agreed with all of them.

She said that if I found someone, I shouldn't miss out by waiting for her to come around. That she wanted me happy. I think she was sincere, and not meaning that she had already found someone.

I'm actually relieved and excited. Relieved that the sitch is changing, and excited for what the future holds.

Needless to say, I think we both have huge issues to deal with. Her self esteem is just horrible, her sense of identity is bound so tightly to just motherhood.

I've felt codependent from Bomb-day plus one, so it'll be great to see how I feel when I'm out of the house. I sure hope my codependency was due to the bomb, but I'm realistic enough to see that it's probably part of my identity and something I need to work on.

Pinhead. You should really read my situation. Beginning to end.

Hey pinhead,
Just wanted to stop in and say hey! I see a lot has happened for you in your stitch always wish you the best! Maybe the new appt: is a good start & time apart. I don�t post a whole lot just because work, school is kicking my but this quarter & just trying to spend more time with my S when I can.

My stitch has not changed much although we are talking more as I'm tired of being angry and trying the forgiveness thing. It's definitely not easy I still think OM is involved somehow, but I have no control in that or this process.

Heck I move into a new place next month it might be a new start for me as well at least my S is really excited!! Who knows what may happen in a few months! We are going to meet with a mediator in the next few weeks after that our D will probably be during the holidays or the beginning of next year. (Which Sucks)!

I Know this maybe stupid, but the hope I have to save this M/ R is like a door that is shut and locked; behind the door is hope & maybe someday it will be opened again.(I know not very good oh well. Well take care I have to start another term paper!
Later Hope

Thanks Hope! I understand what you mean about keeping the hope behind lock and key.

I'm really looking at the time apart as time for me. Time to write full time with far fewer distractions. Time to workout without juggling the girls schedules. Time to spend time on me instead of worrying about the relationship. And as much as I love taking care of the girls, providing for my wife, maintaining the house, doing almost 90% of the household chores, it'll be nice to have my W be responsible for doing it.

I'm sure there will be times when I'm really lonely. When the apartment seems dark and cold. I'll do my best to be prepared for those times, and have a plan! I have some really good friends, and a sister who has struggled with my indecision for months who'll talk me off any ledges!

Plus the apartment is really sweet. Very new, clean, bright, and in a great location. In some ways, waiting for Nov 6th will be hard as I want to get a move on...

And then I think of telling my daughters. I have to be strong for them, support them, quell their fears, give them my love all the time.

plans. lol.

step 1. increase your jaw strength. if you wanherlust this is the key most importnat factor.

Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen

plans. lol.

step 1. increase your jaw strength. if you wanherlust this is the key most importnat factor.

I have no idea what this means, but it makes me smile.

Hey pinhead,
Taking a break from paper, funny thing I move on the 6th too. It's a much nicer place than where I'm now. Since I've moved out the W has kept the house the cleanest I have seen in yrs we were their(that was a big shock to me)!

For me join a 24 gym helps, as well as Starbucks, school, boarders, going out with friends, or going in too D.C. Also always spending time with my S is great too and taking our Dane for walks. Believe me even when you have a lot to do unfortunately the apartment gets cold and I'm not here a whole lot.

Hey you will do fine with your D's a great book is Divorce the Sandcastles Way to help kids cope and it helped the W & I understand a little more. Well gotta type some more so talk later. Hope

Yeah, I've read the Sandcastles book back when I first got the bomb. Didn't really want to read it then, was in denial. Still am a bit I guess.

sorry to hear she is only willing to fake a marriage. i think you are making the right decision.

Stayed up late so I didn't get as much sleep as I'd like, but I sure slept sound. That's another thing to look forward to. (darn dangling participles)

(((Pinhead)))

Read Laura Munson's "This is not the story you think it is..."

It will make you laugh and cry.

Quote:

That if she had to pretend to be a happy wife to make me happy, she would, including sex.
I told her that I misunderstood what she said and her intentions, and that have a fake marriage for the kids was a horrible idea; that if she was willing to go to Retro with an open mind and an open heart towards reconciliation, I think it might be valuable to us. She didn't want to work on "us." That sounds harsh, but it wasn't a harsh conversation, just both of us trying to clear the air.

She said that I was confused because I didn't understand that men and woman can be close, emotionally intimate friends without any romance.

Quote:

Pinhead. You should really read my situation. Beginning to end.

PH, Your wife is getting her needs met somewhere else.

Coach,

Emotional needs? Likely. I suspect her old boss. Physical? Possibly, not much time but people make time...

Either way, it doesn't matter. I'm signing the lease this morning, and moving out on the 6th.

Originally Posted By: mindfull

Pinhead. You should really read my situation. Beginning to end.

I read 50% of it last night. You post a lot!

You sure gave 100%. I can't go through what you did. Two years of that, just wouldn't be healthy for me and my daughters.

Originally Posted By: Coach

Quote:

That if she had to pretend to be a happy wife to make me happy, she would, including sex.
I told her that I misunderstood what she said and her intentions, and that have a fake marriage for the kids was a horrible idea; that if she was willing to go to Retro with an open mind and an open heart towards reconciliation, I think it might be valuable to us. She didn't want to work on "us." That sounds harsh, but it wasn't a harsh conversation, just both of us trying to clear the air.

She said that I was confused because I didn't understand that men and woman can be close, emotionally intimate friends without any romance.

Quote:

Pinhead. You should really read my situation. Beginning to end.

PH, Your wife is getting her needs met somewhere else.

Well, her exact words were "Men and women can be close friends." This is a debate we've had forever, especially if we see a commercial for When Harry Met Sally. I mixed my reply/validation with what she said in my original post.

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

(((Pinhead)))

Thanks, FMV. I'm doing really well.

Still surprised I haven't gone emo over this. I just feel so much relief.

Coach, does it matter if she's getting attention elsewhere, once I move out? I can't control her. I can gather some intel (though not her cell) even while I'm moved out, but I don't really want to do that. I think it prolongs the attachment.

I also don't know how much interaction we should have after I move out. I'll be driving from my apartment to the house every weekday to prep the girls for school. And on Sunday afternoons, I'll be watching them while W works. Eventually the girls will stay with me Sun/M/T and every other Sat. 50-50.

But my wife would like me to come over for dinners, Monopoly/Movie nights, etc. I don't want to make my kids suffer, but I also don't want to make it like everything is all fine between W and I.

I'd prefer just to see her during exchanges.

Would that be a mistake from either a parenting standpoint, or a DB standpoint?

I want to thank the Academy, my makeup artist, my therapist, my director, and all my adoring fans for their support during the summer. I'll be starting on my latest production: Look Who's Coming to Dinner.

Seriously, all the regulars/veterans see so many folks come onto the boards, and I think maybe become a little jaded; not realizing how much of a lifeline you provide. I spent about an hour reading my first thread, trying to recall what I felt and thought at the time. How pathetic and hurt I was.

It's a different person. Looks a bit like me, talks like me. Sometimes even acts like me. Was like a little kid, wanting it all better; expecting someone else to fix things. Somewhere I learned how to do it on my own, helped by some of the toughest advice you can give someone. Advice that I had to choose to follow or discard.

Thank you guys (and gals). You know who you are.

Quote:

I just feel so much relief.

Why do you feel so much relief?

Because I was applying so much pressure to myself to be the perfect guy, the guy she'd be crazy to walk away from. The strong guy, the confident guy.

Now my strength and confidence is coming from my actions, what I'm doing, not something I'm trying to project. I know that sometimes you have to fake it, but it's a helluva lot easier when it's real.

I've gotta be me!

Originally Posted By: Coach

Quote:

I just feel so much relief.

Why do you feel so much relief?

bowel movement possibly ;-)

Originally Posted By: robx

Originally Posted By: Coach

Quote:

I just feel so much relief.

Why do you feel so much relief?

bowel movement possibly ;-)

That could be taken so many ways...

I've definitely been emotionally constipated for 4 months.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

I've gotta be me!

Isn't there a Sesame Street song about that somewhere?

Have a great weekend everyone...:)

And the spew begins.

During family Monopoly, she was throwing game pieces at me. Repeatedly.

This morning she complained that I was "giddy" yesterday night. Said that this is sad what we're going through. I almost said I'll change into black, but bit my tongue.

good, she is trying to get you to go wimp.

"You are right, it is sad but I think it is best."

She apologized for being ' moody' but then got mad when I validated by saying I know this is difficult. She followed me out to my car and asked why issue that. Said that it made it sound like it wasn't hard for me. I said this was hard,it's been no picnic for the last four months.

She needs to keep her cool today. It's D6's birthday party.

Good thing this is all per the script. Makes it much easier when you know what to expect, and not to read the wrong thing into her words and actions.

Yes, she is testing your resolve. Stay cool.

Yes, seems like her emotional needs are being met elsewhere.

Seems like 90% are/were!

W held it together for the party. I kept busy, helped out when needed, stayed cool. Went to look at some furniture for the new place. Watched Mad Men for the first time, pretty good series.

I don't think there's anyone else involved now. That's why she's starting to crack. I'm almost positive there has been an EA/PA in the past, which is probably why she has so much guilt/depression going on.

Now that I've made the one big decision, I need to get my mind ready for telling my girls I'm moving out. And then try to figure out how involved I'll be with my W as we raise our daughters in two households.

We were looking at the girl's school vacation schedule, and W asked me what we were going to do about Thanksgiving. I told her she could have them on Tday, and I would celebrate with them on Friday. She said no, why not celebrate it here. I said "Because I'm not sure I want to do that."

I have to really be careful not to penalize the kids. Not sure if I'm doing the right things or what. Time to learn.

Pin,

Maybe you could drop by for Tday dessert? 1/2 an hour then take the kiddos.

I just want to be really careful about sending the girls mixed messages. As well as sending W mixed messages.

Your doing good PH. I know how hard it is. Keep up your resolve!

Originally Posted By: pinhead

I just want to be really careful about sending the girls mixed messages. As well as sending W mixed messages.

Understood. At somepoint though, I think you will have to show the kids that while you and W are apart, you don't hate eachother and can deal with things. But Tday is probably too soon.

"I don't think there's anyone else involved now. That's why she's starting to crack. I'm almost positive there has been an EA/PA in the past, which is probably why she has so much guilt/depression going on."

Probably right otherwise you might have been able to kick her out of the house. It doesn't take much to encounter another OM - they are are all over the place (workplace, church, school, grocery store) esp. if she's the talkative type. The guilt/depression will probably be converted to anger or love depending on which way the chips fall. Risky territory!

Just some legal advice: Before you move out of the house get the custody/parentling schedule agreed to in writing and keep a daily journal documenting everything you did for the kids and the time you spent with them. Otherwise you can be viewed later as abandoning the family. There may also be tax consequences to living separately. And bank accounts?

FB2, is the custody/parenting schedule something that I can draft and just have her sign? We're really trying not to make any legal arrangements out of this separation, and I'd hate to go to the mattresses right away. She's been really clear that this isn't by any means a permanent thing. Wanting to keep me wriggling right on the hook...

PH,

My apologies for not going all the way back through your thread...

But why are you moving out?

Hi Faith,

I got tired of limbo. Didn't feel like fighting with my wife for ages to get her to move out, since it would take months. I'm going to be paying for everything (she does contribute all of her meager salary), but she'll be staying in the house. Our daughters will split time at both places once I get the bachelor pad set up to handle two youngsters.

W was basically wanting to fake a marriage (including having sex with me when I wanted) but didn't want to work on the marriage at all. Just live together... Not really my cup of tea. So I move out on the 6th into a pretty nice apt. complex.

So are you also considering just filing divorce and being done with her altogether?

You've done an amazing job on yourself PH.

When you move out can you look in the mirror and know without a doubt YOU did the right thing by leaving the home?

Is this what YOU truly want or is this what you think will get her to fall into love with you again (The way you want to be loved)?

How do you think she's gonna view you moving out? Weak? Or a Man that is Standing up for himself and his M? Or abandoned/neglected?

Yeah I agree PH. I moved out in my fisrt M, but I still cut the grass and took care of the house. One day after cutting the grass I was showering and she came in and had sex with me. It was humilitating after wards as I called it making love and she just laughed and said no way!

Do you want to stay and force her out? It is your house!

Hey Gucci,

What you said "quit worrying about detaching nonsense" is the absolute best advice I have read yet on this forum of pain, loss, hope and rebirth.

There is NO set one size fits all formula. We each have to take each day as it comes and deal with it.And by "deal with it", I mean deal with the tears, the rage, the wanting to scream, the whatever "it" is , in PRIVATE. Away from the WAS, away from the kids, away from family and friends. The reality is we are alone with our thoughts, feelings, distrust, anger, etc and only WE can put it all into a proper perspective.

Thanks for your wisdom, Wise Man~

PH, I'm somewhat on board with Atossup. I'm in the same spot requiring two incomes to carry the mortgage which is underwater.

When W dropped the bomb on me, I insisted she leave. She wanted to rent a small place for us to alternate weekends in while the kids stayed in the house full time.

Though we're nowhere close to reconciling, she needed the space to do whatever she's doing with OM and I didn't need to see the evidence in my home. Her decision, her move. She wants space, she needs to go get it so she can truly experience life away from you the way she thinks it will be. This was tough for me because I couldn't keep tabs, see her, etc. But it really helps to work on detaching; despite the fact that its crushing us financially.

I still do family time. While I'd like to limit time with W, I don't want to sacrifice time with my kids. So I see her almost daily with sporting events and dance classes, my method of detachment is avoiding R talk and limiting conversation to the kids. Create your boundaries and stick with them.

Best of luck

Originally Posted By: pinhead

FB2, is the custody/parenting schedule something that I can draft and just have her sign? We're really trying not to make any legal arrangements out of this separation, and I'd hate to go to the mattresses right away. She's been really clear that this isn't by any means a permanent thing. Wanting to keep me wriggling right on the hook...

Looks like she's calling the shots not you!?

"no-fault" in theory would divide the kids time and property in half. However courts have broad latitude to do what's "in the best interests of the children". If you move out to your nice small 2 bedroom apt. while W has free reign of the house and the kids spend most of the time with her and nothing is in writing guess what could happen when/if D happens a few months down the road and W has worked up her anger? You will most likely NOT be able to move back into your house, you may not see your kids as much, you will have to pay W a huge sum every month in child support and alimony to compensate for her meager income so she can continue to pay the mortgage and other monthly expenses. Why? Because all this could be seen as "in the best interests of the children" and there's proof that you are able to pay up as you're already doing it. I'm not saying all this will happen but it certainly could given what you seem to be doing.

IMO: consult a very sharp lawyer for an hour or so quietly by yourself well BEFORE Nov6 and stay 3 steps ahead of your W.

Pin

I agree 100% with FB2. Please talk to a lawyer as soon as you can BEFORE you agree to move out.

CYA

No, I'm calling the shots for me. I've decided to move out instead of living with her in a pseudo-marriage. She'd be content to stay together for two years until our debt is paid off.

I think her statements about this not being permanent, that leases could be broken, that we're not doing anything legal, are just probes at me to see how serious I am. Instead of agreeing with her, I probably should have said I have no plans to break the lease.

Now it might be a mistake for me to move out, not from a legal (abandonment) sense, but from a DB sense. She gets to stay nice and comfy in our marital house, with no real disruption other than having to cook dinner for the girls 3-4 nights a week, and also having to do everything with maintaining the house: laundry, shopping, etc.

Just my perception... I think it's difficult for you to set DBing aside and see this objectively. She is clearly holding on to the material security and you are facilitating it in the hope she turns around. She could and probably would dump you any time since she has already checked out emotionally. All it would take is an OM or talking with a friend or family about you're not being there for her, etc. and then she'll be going legal on you. You need to look out for YOU and the kids.

Ihave to agree PH with the others. My first W asked me to move out and I did for 6 months than I realized that IT was my house, I was paying the bills, so I moved back in. She finally moved out and yes it sucked to be in a house with a woman who hated me but when she moved and got heavily involved with OG, at the D she gave me the kids!! I took care of them and she hardly had them to live her "new" life. Thank God for the OG !!

Oh and CYA dies not mean Chicago Youth Association. Perhaps a few months of your apt rent money would be better spent on an intensive session with MWD in Colorado?Aat least then you,d be putting your money where your mouth is and getting a quick reading on how to move on with your life.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

No, I'm calling the shots for me. I've decided to move out instead of living with her in a pseudo-marriage.

If you already made up your mind, why are you asking for other peoples opinions?

I mean I'll give you mine.
YOU ARE MAKING A HUGE MISTAKE.

You should stay in the house and if she wants to leave that will be her choice.
Once you leave, besides being abandonment, there may be no coming back.
It maybe a one time choice with no reversal.

It does not follow your marriage vows.
When things get tough in my marriage I will not work on it and just leave.

NOPE, sorry you need to start taking time and forget about her and work on yourself.

It can be done in the same house, even in the same bed.

What kind of message are you sending to your children?
When things get tough MOM and DAD run away!
BAD!!!!!!!!! example of being a parent!

Hey Pin

Man I can't say I went through your whole thread(s) If I missed something tell me.

What I see.

She has checked out emotionally. There probably is OM.

Or was.

You worked a little bit and then

Didn't get results and keep going back to the fact that she said she didn't love you but would saty for kids.

She initiated the bomb.

Why do you think?

She must have thought it out dontcha think?

Well he might leave. He might want me to leave.

This? or That?

WTF? It doesn't make sense. Something happened she didn't plan.

Maybe OM dumped her when she made the move with you. Didn't want the commitment. Or had guilt.

There would be a natural "mourning" period where she would be indifferent.

She does have guilt >>>>>>"you can date if you want to"

She is looking for a place to put it my friend.

And to you

Your defense was becoming the WAS. Who left in your first M?

This is a mexican standoff IMO. She doesn't believe you can change and you don't believe she will.

What does manning up mean to you?

What kind of man do you aspire to be?

Will your actions be in line with that?

Or

In reaction to something that your W doesn't feel like giving to you right now?

We are not entitled to anything...only what we choose for ourselves.

Originally Posted By: Pin

I am being me!

Do you know what that is?

This is hard stuff Pin. If you knew the answer to my question you would not be conflicted.

You have lost your way once already (1st M) and BTW so did I so I know what I am talking about.

When you got married this time you had an expectation and ...

so your vows were conditional weren't they?

Cause this ain't what you signed up for huh?

Schidt that sucks! It does. I know.

Know what sucks worse?

Living your life confirming you were wrong about your M, yourself and your W...

Your choices define who you are so

be careful.
Be patient with yourself
Be kind to yourself

Your honor will tell you the right thing to do.

^^^^^^^that^^^^^^^^^

is not a feeling it is a decsion.

Courage and strength will determine if you will choose it.

There is no judgement here Pin. Your answer is in you.

One last question.

How would you feel if she moved out?

Would that confirm or deny what you want from her.

Lance, True,

I hear you, and appreciate the advice. I'm asking opinions, because this is obviously a big decision, there are people with different opinions/advice, and I don't think it hurts to get a second opinion when it's easy to let your emotions sway you from your goals.

She's made it really clear that she doesn't want to do anymore counseling, whether it's with a MC, Retro, or even MWD herself.

I don't see leaving the house as giving up on my marriage, or abandoning anyone, or my vows being conditional. Being together isn't making my R better. In some ways it's making it worse. Yes it's better now than after she dropped the bomb. But that's like saying your cancer isn't killing you quite as quickly now that we've started chemotherapy.

This is a chance for me and her to see what life is like without each other actively involved. It doesn't mean I won't keep GAL, or doing DB things to make our R better. It just means that I've accepted that I can't change her; I can only change myself.

Last night we spoke more about separating. And I realized one really important thing: none of the changes I've made in myself are helping her to see me differently, to feel differently towards me. She's happy I've made the changes, but they haven't helped her out of the fog.

She needs to do that. I can't help her, guide her, nada. And if me staying around is a part of the reason she's in the fog, then moving out will remove some of it.

I've stopped trying to figure out why she's lost her way. Whether it was my neglect, or her childhood issues, or that she got married before really knowing herself, or if there was another man. It doesn't matter.

She's responsible for finding her own way in this life. I'm responsible for myself and my daughters. I'm responsible for helping my W when she asks for it, providing it doesn't interfere with my other responsibilities; I have to be true to myself.

I'm with Pinhead on this one. I made exactly the same decision for exactly the same reason. W couldn't move forward with me there, and neither could I. It's hard, but in the last few days I do feel at least a little better.

Originally Posted By: Pin

none of the changes I've made in myself are helping her to see me differently, to feel differently towards me. She's happy I've made the changes, but they haven't helped her out of the fog.

Did you do them for you or to change her behavior because your M didn't get ruined overnight and it won't be saved overnight.

Also she has to see consistent action from you not just words.

You make insincere changes and she'll sniff you out like a drug dog at the Miami airport.

How long does that take? I don't know. How long is it worth to you? Is there another relationshipo out there for you?

Maybe. But you better be sure you figured out this one or you'll be back here again.

Originally Posted By: Pin

And if me staying around is a part of the reason she's in the fog, then moving out will remove some of it.

How do you know this ^^^^? You don't Pin and what makes you think that removing yourself from it will be better?

Detachment is harder when you live with the person BUT it can be done.

Originally Posted By: Pin

I've stopped trying to figure out why she's lost her way. Whether it was my neglect, or her childhood issues, or that she got married before really knowing herself, or if there was another man. It doesn't matter.

Good because you can't do this and it's not your job it's hers and she may never get to know herself.

No guarantees here friend.

You have already been to the well to drink the water and quench your thirst (1st M)

and now you are back at the well to quench your thirst again.

And you will always be thirsty until you drink from the water of truth.

YOUR truth.

No better time in your life to find what this means for you.

If ALL your answers are in your decision to go and they are confirmed by that

Then do it.

You did not answer my questions about your 1st M and how you would feel if she was leaving.

I am not questioning your honor, your courage or your integrity but you should make sure your choices

Align with YOUR answers.

Hi TG,

In my first marriage, I was the one who left.

If my W were to leave now, to separate like I am, I don't think I'd feel much differently towards the direction of our relationship. I have some irritation at having to leave my home, my comfort zone, and a sense that she's not having to make similar sacrifices. But those feelings are just feelings.

Just like you become attached to a person, you become attached to things and routines, and places and habits. Disrupt those, or even think about disrupting them too much and you become uncomfortable. I know that I'll eventually become comfortable in my new apartment, with my new custody arrangement.

Will I miss my wife? Surely. Will she miss me? Possibly. Surely to some extent, we've shared thirteen years together. I'm sure I'll cross her mind.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

if me staying around is a part of the reason she's in the fog, then moving out will remove some of it.

Pin this is the part I disagree with.
Her being in a fog has NOTHING to do with you.

It is not your fault, its all on her.
You moving out will be giving her space.
But it will not snap her out of her fog.

You are making it easy on her, she has to look within.
Your changes have nothing to do with her coming out of her fog either.

You make the changes for YOU!!! Not to win her back.
When she comes out of the fog she will have to deal with the new you, but until she does, there is NOTHING you can do.

Only give her space. Go on living your life as if she is not coming back.

I think you have an EXPECTATION that by moving out you will save your marriage. What you are doing is very risky.
I again would not suggest it. It goes against everything that I have learned here. I am not saying that it won't work but I have seen it backfire.

You really should be able to detach and let go with out YOU being the one to leave.

If she leaves you can not control that.
But you can control YOU!

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

Originally Posted By: Pin

And if me staying around is a part of the reason she's in the fog, then moving out will remove some of it.

How do you know this ^^^^? You don't Pin and what makes you think that removing yourself from it will be better?

Either my presence is contributing to her staying in the fog, or it's causing it. She's said that she "can't see the forest for the trees," that she can't separate her feelings for me as a father to our daughters, from her feelings for me because everytime she turns around, I'm there. And that she feels responsible for my happiness, a responsibility that she's felt since we were married. Said that when she married me, she thought that was normal and wanted that role, now it's stifling.

I can't convince her that her feelings are wrong, because they're what she feels.

I can only find my own happiness, and hope that she sees I'm happy without her. Then she won't have to carry that burden (in her mind).

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Either my presence is contributing to her staying in the fog, or it's causing it.

NO!!!!!!! See above

Originally Posted By: LanceSijan

Originally Posted By: pinhead

if me staying around is a part of the reason she's in the fog, then moving out will remove some of it.

Pin this is the part I disagree with.
Her being in a fog has NOTHING to do with you.

It is not your fault, its all on her.
You moving out will be giving her space.
But it will not snap her out of her fog.

You are making it easy on her, she has to look within.
Your changes have nothing to do with her coming out of her fog either.

You make the changes for YOU!!! Not to win her back.
When she comes out of the fog she will have to deal with the new you, but until she does, there is NOTHING you can do.

Only give her space. Go on living your life as if she is not coming back.

I think you have an EXPECTATION that by moving out you will save your marriage. What you are doing is very risky.
I again would not suggest it. It goes against everything that I have learned here. I am not saying that it won't work but I have seen it backfire.

You really should be able to detach and let go with out YOU being the one to leave.

If she leaves you can not control that.
But you can control YOU!

Hi Lance,

I've made the changes for me. I'm happy with them, the motivation behind them, and how they've affected my view of life. Yes I wished that she had said "Wow, you're a fantastic guy, where have you been hiding?" That would be icing on the cake for my changes. But the changes are great for me no matter what she does.

My moving out is giving her the space she wants. And I'll be living my life like she's not coming back. I'll have faith that I'll be okay, but I won't be pining away in my apt for her. I'll be praying that she finds some peace and happiness.

Good morning Pinhead, was just checking in to see how you're doing...

Originally Posted By: Pin

Either my presence is contributing to her staying in the fog, or it's causing it. She's said that she "can't see the forest for the trees," that she can't separate her feelings for me as a father to our daughters, from her feelings for me because everytime she turns around, I'm there.

Pin? Pin Cushion? Don't take these arrows.

If you can't stand up to her you can't stand up for her my friend.

She wants you to stay right?

Then what is all this crap about she can't see you as a husband and not a father????

Your reasons to leave are for HER?

About HER?

HER choices?

If you leave you confirm all the wrong ideas she has about you.

Unless you believe you are those things.

All the wrong ideas she has about M.

Unless you believe them too.

All the wrong ideas she has about herself.

Unless you believe it too.

All the wrong ideas about what love means.

Unless you are not capable of it either.

Somewhere along the way you got lost.

She got lost.

One of you has to light the way.

Your the one that's here so I am going to go out on a limb and say that you have this in you Pin.

Which takes more courage in your choices. To accept what is dished out

or

forge your own way because of what you believe. What you believe in yourself.

Whether you gain from it or not.

Whether it turns your way or not.

Whether she wants to reconcile or divorce.

We get what we give Pin.

Why did you leave your first M?

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

If you leave you confirm all the wrong ideas she has about you.

This is KEY.

Great post Grit!

She doesn't want me to stay anymore. When we talked last night and she said that staying together is making things worse. Quite a shift from "I'll do anything for my babies" two weeks ago. She's tired of the ups and downs, the tension, me not knowing what I want for two weeks. She wants space.

About the only thing I could now do is tell her that if she wants space, SHE should be the one moving into the apartment.

I left my first marriage because I felt no passion or desire for my wife. Karma is a bitch.

I get where you guys are coming from, Lance and Grit. Does there not ever come a time when the LBS is allowed to say, without guilt, I'm done!!?

We are all here to try to save our M. Some cannot be saved even if we do everything we are supposed to. It just won't matter.

From following Pin's thread, it seems to me that his W does not want any type of "real" relationship with him. Yes, she said she's willing to stay for the kids and have sex, etc. and maybe that could lead into a true change of heart for her somewhere down the line. I could see him staying if she said she "just wasn't sure how I feel. I do want to feel that way for you again." She only wants the convenience of a family and not be blamed for her part in tearing it apart. She is offering this olive branch to alleviate her own guilt.

If Pin has reached his breaking point after not getting any sign from his W that she wants to try, I say he can walk away from her poison and not feel bad about himself for doing the best he could. She had told him what she wants and he is simply giving it to her. What is the harm in that? When is enough enough?

Originally Posted By: Pin

About the only thing I could now do is tell her that if she wants space, SHE should be the one moving into the apartment.

You are leaving because she wants you leave?

Do you want this M?

Then tell her that you take your vows seriously and you will no longer enable the destruction of your family and your M.

If she wants a divorce she will have to do the work.

If she can't take the situation then she can change it.

If she doesn't want to work on the M in any way then she can walk away.

What do you want Pin?

WHAT DO YOU WANT?

You are not the victim here so quit acting like one.

Originally Posted By: Pin

I left my first marriage because I felt no passion or desire for my wife. Karma is a bitch.

Unless you get off the karmic wheel. You'll come around on it again.

You WILL see this again unless you choose better. Choose differently.

Originally Posted By: LanceSijan

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

If you leave you confirm all the wrong ideas she has about you.

This is KEY.

Great post Grit!

Mind reading.

Plus I thought it has nothing to do with her.

TG,

Of course I want my marriage. She doesn't want a divorce. I asked her point blank last night. She can't take this situation any longer, and neither can I. It's not healthy for either of us. She doesn't want to work on the M because she doesn't know how. Says she wants to feel it for me, but doesn't know how. Me staying isn't working to improve how she feels.

I'm not being a victim here. I'm leaving because I don't want to be here while she's so screwed up.

My mistake in my first marriage was getting married in the first place. I didn't lose the passion or desire, so much as confused lust and caretaking for love.

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

Good morning Pinhead, was just checking in to see how you're doing...

Reality is setting in. Realizing I'm going to be living in a small apartment, without my daughters half the time, and without my marriage, crappy as it may be. Just having a little pity party. Think I'm going to go steal some Halloween candy from the neighboring cubicle...

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Says she wants to feel it for me, but doesn't know how.

I'm sorry... what?! She wants to feel it but doesn't know HOW? Please. There's TONS of resources out there for people who really want it. And you offered it to her in the form of Retro and she turned it down. Some major mixed messages she's trying to get you to swallow there. Hope you're able to just keep your head down and stay focused.

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Says she wants to feel it for me, but doesn't know how.

I'm sorry... what?! She wants to feel it but doesn't know HOW? Please. There's TONS of resources out there for people who really want it. And you offered it to her in the form of Retro and she turned it down. Some major mixed messages she's trying to get you to swallow there. Hope you're able to just keep your head down and stay focused.

It's easy for someone to say that, hard to actually take steps.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

It's easy for someone to say that, hard to actually take steps.

Really? In my case I found it easier to take the steps rather than wallowing in what I didn't feel for my H anymore. Because at that point, what do you have to lose?

Sorry things are starting to hit you... stay strong.

Originally Posted By: FindingMyVoice

Originally Posted By: pinhead

It's easy for someone to say that, hard to actually take steps.

Really? In my case I found it easier to take the steps rather than wallowing in what I didn't feel for my H anymore. Because at that point, what do you have to lose?

Sorry things are starting to hit you... stay strong.

I guess I meant it's easy for someone to say; to really mean it? Shrug. She needs to make her choices.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She needs to make her choices.

If you move out...what choice is she making?

She's letting me go.

Says a lot.

And you can't force someone to make choices. You can only make your own choices about what you do in your life.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She's letting me go.

Says a lot.

She truly loves you.

Originally Posted By: pookie69

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She's letting me go.

Says a lot.

She truly loves you.

Where's the smartass emoticon!

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She's letting me go.

Says a lot.

Can't blame her. It's so much easier on her afterall; why should she have to move right? She doesn't want to work on herself or the marriage...why should she have to move out on top of that?

Pinhead finally walks away....but will he be back tomorrow?

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Originally Posted By: pookie69

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She's letting me go.

Says a lot.

She truly loves you.

Where's the smartass emoticon!

Isn't that's why you were letting her go?

Time to read the DR from WAS perspective.

Well, if she's the LBS now, and I'm the WAS, then the roles are going to be awfully muddled?

Just because I'm leaving doesn't really make me the WAS. If she pursued, it would work.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Well, if she's the LBS now, and I'm the WAS, then the roles are going to be awfully muddled?

Just because I'm leaving doesn't really make me the WAS. If she pursued, it would work.

That's how you merge into one and live happily ever after wit yourself.

Happened to Coach and Greek once right here in this forum.

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Well, if she's the LBS now, and I'm the WAS, then the roles are going to be awfully muddled?

Just because I'm leaving doesn't really make me the WAS. If she pursued, it would work.

Does this mean I should pursue my husband?

Pin,

I remember when you use to hit me over the head with 2x4's telling me to detach. Now my sitch is easier than yours. My W left and went dark and we have no kids. So it was easier to detach due to my circumstances. Where are you with detaching? I know you are running; however, are you doing anything else for social interaction (no, not dating)?

I believe once you leave and detach as much as possible and continue working on being a better Pinhead that your W will take notice. And, well if she doesn't you will be in a better place and possibly ready for an R with somenone who appreciates who you are!

He is reattaching in a weird way.

I know. I am see him reverting back...he does not sound like the same Pinhead that helped me during my worst times.

Originally Posted By: Pin

If she pursued, it would work.

Remember I used the term Mexican Standoff?

She was pleading with you to stay.

Under her terms and conditions

Which you couldn't accept.

Now you would stay under yours?

Hi HIH,

I'm doing well with detaching, whatever we all agree that is! I'm just having what I figure is the usual feelings around actually moving out. Not letting those feelings affect what I do, but I still feel them, right?

Some relief. Some frustration that it came to this, that I'm giving up a lot of what I've built up in my house for a small apartment. Some frustration that we're both hurting our daughters.

I haven't been doing much social stuff the last month, as we were kind of muddling through our relationship stuff with stops and starts. Been doing more personal GAL stuff than group/social stuff. I'll need to change that when I'm in the apartment, as I'll have 3-4 nights alone, and I don't want to be the crazy Naked Guy from Friends.

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

Originally Posted By: Pin

If she pursued, it would work.

Remember I used the term Mexican Standoff?

She was pleading with you to stay.

Under her terms and conditions

Which you couldn't accept.

Now you would stay under yours?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Why would she get so pissed off last night when I said that a separation is what you do when you want to end a relationship? She made it really clear that she wants me out.

I don't know what my conditions for staying would be. Retro? Sounds like an ultimatum. More MC? That didn't seem to help. IC for her and me? Might help, but not really a prerequisite.

If she said she wanted me to stay to work on the R, to go "all in" with no expectations, I might consider it. But to stay for financial reasons, for the girls, I think is a mistake.

And she needs to express her wants. I won't mindread with her, trying to figure out when she's pleading with me to stay while calmly dividing up kitchen assets.

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

Remember I used the term Mexican Standoff?

Now you would stay under yours?

That's racist.

He is becoming a Patriot and needs to figure out his rules.

I think the progress of DB'ing caught him off guard.

He wants to walk to get his head straight and his W hasn't gotten hers straight.

Tables turned and there is a new level of confusion

But I must say that if I was him I would put my deep feelings aside and truly become a catnip without mindreading and pulling out answers from her W after having a sandwich.

She has been honest. Her feelings need to be focused on.

Change your approach, Pin.

Great episode! I understand what you are going through, but you have to remain firm if you wish to reconcile your M.

I have two sons from my 1st M and they were about your kids age when we D'd. Although, my 1st ex and I could not reconcile the M we agreed that we would work together to ensure that out two sons would have a happy healthy childood. For the most part we have been successful even when I remarried and now going through my current sitch.

I have or should say we have two very happy teenage boys both working on Eagle projects in Boy Scouts. So your kids will prevail as long as you and your W understand that maybe the M failed, but your R is important for your kids.

I understand about the apartment. I hate mine and call it the prison. Nice homes in CT are outrageous.

Yep, she's being as honest as she can, as much as she knows what she wants, and as much as she can express her feelings.

I respect that. I have a lot of sympathy, having been through some of the same feelings in the last month.

I'm not really walking to get my head straight.

I'm actually not worried about coparenting with W. She's a good mother, and I'm a good father. We'll find ways to overcome any awkwardness.

I worry about how the girls will feel, but all I can do is love them a lot, give them as much time as I can.

In popular culture, the Mexican standoff is usually portrayed as two or more opponents with guns drawn and ready, creating a tense situation. Neither side is willing to shoot for fear of being shot in return, yet neither side wants to relinquish its weapons for fear that its opponents will shoot them.

This situation forces the participants to resolve the situation either by diplomacy, surrender, or a pre-emptive strike.

Which one of these are you doing Pin?

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Yep, she's being as honest as she can, as much as she knows what she wants, and as much as she can express her feelings.

I respect that. I have a lot of sympathy, having been through some of the same feelings in the last month.

I'm not really walking to get my head straight.

Then lead for the sake of your whole family.

Originally Posted By: pookie69

Originally Posted By: pinhead

Yep, she's being as honest as she can, as much as she knows what she wants, and as much as she can express her feelings.

I respect that. I have a lot of sympathy, having been through some of the same feelings in the last month.

I'm not really walking to get my head straight.

Then lead for the sake of your whole family.

This should be a drinking game. Say the word "Lead" without a concrete or reasonably specific example and you have to do a shot of tequila...

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

In popular culture, the Mexican standoff is usually portrayed as two or more opponents with guns drawn and ready, creating a tense situation. Neither side is willing to shoot for fear of being shot in return, yet neither side wants to relinquish its weapons for fear that its opponents will shoot them.

This situation forces the participants to resolve the situation either by diplomacy, surrender, or a pre-emptive strike.

Which one of these are you doing Pin?

There are lots of alternatives than the three you posited; Retreat, for example.

Originally Posted By: Pin

There are lots of alternatives than the three you posited; Retreat, for example.

There's no basement in the Alamo silly!

Retreat you get shot in the back...

Look Pin. Indecision.

Make sure whatever you decide.

You don't have ANY regrets.

Don't let someone make decisions for you.

Pin,

I will be as serious as I've ever been.

I will go through your entire sitch and make collage of your "feelings" in your own words. It may take time and will take some effort.

I think you lost focus on the process because you saw the outcome.

However you don't have the outcome yet. You are still in the process.

Take a moment and think. Will you put this in your book?

P.S.

You've been a good bloke here for me.

I will put together the Pinheads Greatest Hits.

Pin

I think maybe I should share this with you as it was shared with me:

Now there are two kinds of divorce that happen, sort of at the same time. One is the legal divorce, and the other one is the emotional divorce.

We get the two confused.

We think we're going to stop the emotional divorce by stopping the legal divorce. The more you try to stop the legal side of divorce, the more rebellious he or she feels.

The more you use pressure, the less they see your inner beauty and your charm.

Everybody thinks, professionals and non-professionals alike, they say to have a happy marriage or a happy relationship, you have to work at it.

But I say that it's the working that makes it not work.

When you criticize, you're working at improving your mate.

When you complain to your lover, you're working at improving them.

When you argue, you're working at improving them.

When you try to reason with them.

When you tell them how much you love them.

Both when you're reasoning and when you're telling them how much you love them, you are trying to change them. You are working at changing them. And it's that working at changing them, that is the only problem.

Proof? You want proof?

Stop all of that, and watch the relationship get better.

Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your mate thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay.

It's perfectly okay.

And watch them improve themselves.

Their negative feelings towards you will weaken rapidly, because their negative feeling needs something in you to fight with. And when you sincerely see what's on their side, when you sincerely agree with them, and when you lovingly and sincerely go one hundred percent totally, instantly, and happily your mate's way, when you do that there's nothing for their negative feeling to build on.

You have put the white flag up.

You've thrown your gun down.

That forces them to do the same thing. They cannot shoot you when you have no gun. When you're not defending yourself, THEY want to defend you.

It's not normal to not defend yourself, but it is healthy.

Agree with them.

Do not disagree at all.

It's not to your advantage.
....Her negative or his negative attitudes towards you are being supported by you communicating what you want.

Every time you say to them, "But, I love you," you are saying, "but I want something different than what you want. You want to pull away, but I want you to come closer. I don't really care what you want. It's what I want that's important."

Lots of times men tell their wives, "I've changed. I've changed. Let's get back together. I've changed."

I tell the husbands that "Every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're communicating to her that you have not changed."

"Really? Why is that? How is that? I don't understand that."

"Of course, you don't understand. But what's your motivation? Why are you telling him or her how you've changed? What's your purpose? Isn't it to get your way?"

"Yeah, I want her back."

"That's your way. It's not her way, right now. She said she may consider it later, maybe, but not right now. And every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're saying, 'Give me my way! Give me my way! Give me my way! What I want is more important than what you want. I don't give a hoot what you want."

And subconsciously, she says, "He hasn't changed. He's still the neurotic, selfish, pressuring guy he always was. There's no way I'm going to go back to him, or feel positive to him as long as he is this way."

You been at this 4 months. Is that long enough?

I don't know. And no one here knows Pin. You have 13 years with this woman.

It is up to you.

Quote:

Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your mate thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay.

It's perfectly okay.

Yep agree with her. "This marriage isn't working for me either. Us in the same house isn't working for me. I don't feel it either. I have been wrong trying to get you to love me, that was selfish of me. I want you to be happy, I want myself to be happy and I want the girls to see and feel love in their home. That's why I have decided_____________________.
"

You wife needs to feel you walking away not a fallback and comfortable position. if you can't do it in the same house then make sure you have everything checked off legally, financially, with he girls and you are squared away emotionally. Seperation isn't the end.

Wow,

Now I have to spend all of tomorrow to top this.

Can't now.

Playing Civ 5.

Originally Posted By: Coach

Seperation isn't the end.

That is true...

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

Originally Posted By: Coach

Seperation isn't the end.

That is true...

The end is when you decide it is.

Pinhead

I have not read your entire thread BUT what I see is confusion on your part.

Have you really sat down and thought about YOUR ACTIONS. I mean really?

Is your pride maybe driving your thought process?

I can relate to just how shi*ty it is living with a W, who does not want to work on a M.

Here is the thing....does she feel like you "hear" her?

Let me ask you another question.

If the roles were reversed...how would you feel if in your confusion (and hey maybe she is not confused) your W of X number of years said f it - I'm otta here.

I am not telling you to be a doormat, not telling you to stay or go - nope - that is your call BUT what I will tell you is this...

There is a difference between PRIDE and SELF RESPECT.

Make sure that whatever you do...that PRIDE is not driving the choice.

Good luck and God Bless,
Eric

"You wife needs to feel you walking away not a fallback and comfortable position. if you can't do it in the same house then make sure you have everything checked off legally, financially, with he girls and you are squared away emotionally. Seperation isn't the end."

Yep! Except you can't make her feel what you want her to.

It still seems to me you are moving out because you are hoping it might save your M even tho' you say its for you. Fact is you should not take at face value ANYTHING she says. What she is saying or not saying seems to be standard WAW or pre-WAW behavior. For example if she doesn't want a D why wouldn't she want to make the M better by trying MWD, Retro or whatever? She seems to have a nice cake eating fallback position that you have provided but you don't have a fallback. If your ploy backfires you'll be in dire straits financially and emotionally.

I suggest you study other cases where this sort of thing was done. Actually very few had the desired result. Separation does not mean the end of the road but it could easily accelerate your trip to the end of the road. And there's no real correlation between separation and giving her "space". I don't mean to hit you with a 2x4 instead I mean for you to cover your rear end before you take this step.

I'm no fan of 2nd marriages when there are minor kids and the other parent is still active in the kid's life. But apparently this is common practice; however, not in my book; seems very wrong to me whether its done by the WAS or the LBS.

Pin -
I really don't have much to add. I've been following your sitch for a while now. It's like a favorite TV show where I just come in and root for my favorite character to get it all right and have the feel good ending.

You are getting such great advice especially from Trugritter and Coach...but you are obviously conflicted and it appears that you think this is the make or break decision point. With that in mind, 2 things.

1) I think you need to take a break, a timeout. This has consumed you so much lately that I'm not sure you can see the forest through the trees. You are smart and rationale...I see that in the advice you give others...but right now, you might not be the true Pinhead that we all know. However you do it, you might want to get away. Away from the boards for a couple of days, away from this topic for a couple of days.

2) There is no such thing as a make or break decision point. I believe that because in my sitch I thought I hit that point probably 10 times...and all 10 times I was incorrect. This is life. It doesn't just stop, nothing is irreversable. In fact it is this knowledge that I am having to deal with myself right now, piecing, because I know our decision to work on M can be reversed any time by either one of us

It does not sound like you are ready to make a decision. There is nothing wrong with that right now...limbo land might suck, but sometimes to quote another from DB boards...sometimes you just have to embrace the suck.

Originally Posted By: fb2

If your ploy backfires you'll be in dire straits financially and emotionally.

This ^^^^ is a good point.

My last post to you is really a change of mindset.

You don't have an affair to deal with (that we know of)

Your W is just done with you.

If you have looked in the mirror and listened to the complaints she has in her M of you, the ones that sting, the ones you can honestly admit to...

AND

YOU have honestly made those changes for YOU.

AND

You have detached and let your actions speak for you instead of words.

For a time so they can sink in.

How long? I don't know.

She is stonewalling you because she doesn't believe IMO.

She does not have faith in you.

Do you have faith in you? Do you know what you want?

If so are you prepared to do it without being assured you will get the desired result?

Time to look inside again man.

Do what you do for YOU not because of what your W will or will not do for your M right now.

If you are not capable of making THAT kind of choice then you can be honest with yourself and say that it why you don't choose to do it.

Either way this is the crossroad for you. You can make choices that align with your core and take the outcome either way.

Or

Run.

You may feel like a doormat right now as others might define it.

I say you are doormat as long as you attach your self worth to the actions or inactions of another...

When you make decisions from a faith in yourself that word "doormat" and the feeling attached to it, is in your rear view mirror...

It has no sting for you anymore.

That is what I think you are capable of (and everyone is) if you decide to find yourself through this tragedy.

In the end you only have control over your choices and that is what defines you.

Originally Posted By: Truegritter

Your W is just done with you.

If you have looked in the mirror and listened to the complaints she has in her M of you, the ones that sting, the ones you can honestly admit to...

This.

She is done. She can't admit it, but it's obvious she is done.

She has no complaints about how I am now. Before the bomb she thought I was unaffectionate, and that I neglected her. That I wasn't involved enough with our daughters. That I wasn't as confident as I should be.

She says those are things I've changed since the Bomb.

But she's still done. Just wants her house with a white picket fence, two kids in the yard, her comfy little job that doesn't demand anything of her. In fact, that's exactly what she wants out of life, comfort with no demands or challenges.

You'll read this, and say "He's angry." "He's not detached" or "He's 'reattaching.'"

Yeah, I'm at an angry point. I'm at a point where I'm having to make huge sacrifices, where my life is going to be turned upside down, where my daughters are going to be turned upside down. Where...

That doesn't mean I'm running away, or that I'm flawed, or weak or a doormat or anything that's been said on these boards. They're just my feelings. I'm just having them, trying to see where they're coming from, why I feel this way. It's why we're human...

If I could coldly walk away from my family, the first thing I'd do is check myself into a psych ward. This SHOULDN'T be easy.

But it's the right thing for me to do; either I leave or she leaves. I made a mistake in deciding it had to be me to leave. I'm trying to find ways around that, ways that work for ME and my daughters. I might not be able to fix that mistake, and if not, I'll still go. But one of us has to leave, that's clear as the Nebraska sky right now.

Pin,

I'm not sure I can really put into words what I feel like I hear you saying. You are a very open and forthright person. I don't think you are hiding anything. But here is my concern. I don't have any clue what you want. If you are leaving because your W is done, I understand that. But what are YOU going to do. If your M is over, what is next for Mr. P? What are you going to DO with your time.

I think that if you are just doing this because "someone has to move out" it is for the wrong reason. Will you date? Will, you take up new hobbies? Are you moving to a place you like?

What is your plan? Because one you leave it will be more difficult to come back (maybe that is a good thing).

I'm not saying what you should do one way or another, I'd just like to understand your plans.

What I want?

I want a safe home for my daughters. I want time to spend on activities I like: writing, running, dancing, music, movies, reading. I want financial security. I want to spend time with my daughters. I want to spend time pushing myself to my limits, understanding myself, seeing how far I can go. A man's reach should exceed his grasp...

What would I like?

I'd like someone to share my interests with. Someone to joke and smile with. Someone I can be affectionate with. Someone who enjoys life, who sees the joy in it.

On chat, someone asked me if my wife smiled much at me. I can't remember the last time my W smiled at me. Not shared a smile because of something our daughters did, but smiled at me. It's been years.

Originally Posted By: NotFromThesePart

I think that if you are just doing this because "someone has to move out" it is for the wrong reason.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She is done. She can't admit it, but it's obvious she is done.

Now this is mindreading!

In her fog there is NO way you can know how she feels.

The fact that she wants you to stay and even will carry on "as if" you were married to me say a quite different story.

Pinhead,

I concur with Gut. I think you need to detach from your sitch and from the boards for a while and just enjoy what life has to offer. These boards are addictive and I remember trolling through a lot of posts in the hope of understanding my sitch better and offering up advice when I thought I saw someone else�s sitch much clearer than they did. Unfortunately, these boards can keep you from GALing and I personally felt what I would call �The Death Spiral� effects because you start becoming consumed with other posters sitch�s.

Pin you are a great guy and I appreciate your support during my most difficult times. So this my pay forward to you in that you need some time off and just GAL. Go fishing for a weekend, shopping whatever is your thing and not think of anything but enjoying what life offer!

She wrote me this email today in reply to some R talk that sprang up last night when we were talking about the separation:

"Do you have any idea what it is like to feel like you are absolutely everything to someone? It's suffocating. I've tried (many times) to express to you how hard it is for me to discern how I really feel from how I (and you) think I should feel. I can't see the forest for the trees. It's like you just wanted to keep plowing ahead through a snowbank that is completely frozen and all you're doing is packing the snow harder. Sometimes you have to give it time to thaw before you can start again."

Quote:

"Do you have any idea what it is like to feel like you are absolutely everything to someone? It's suffocating. I've tried (many times) to express to you how hard it is for me to discern how I really feel from how I (and you) think I should feel. I can't see the forest for the trees. It's like you just wanted to keep plowing ahead through a snowbank that is completely frozen and all you're doing is packing the snow harder. Sometimes you have to give it time to thaw before you can start again."

Huge opportunity to validate, lead and agree with her. She needs someone to lead her thru the forest. You can handle it.

Cheers
ps. She's watching you.

Coach,

I know how to validate and agree with this, though it's obvious I've done a poor job in the past. But how do I lead? By leaving? By staying and telling her she needs to leave to get unstuck?

By moving on, showing her that she isn't absolutely everything to me? I can think of a million ways to do that... file, date, etc.

In this cas you lead by detaching and giving her space.
Not by moving out. She needs room to breathe. Listen to what she says and take HER advice. She is telling you what she needs right now. Do you not believe her?

Listen to what she is telling you:

Quote:

"Do you have any idea what it is like to feel like you are absolutely everything to someone? It's suffocating. I've tried (many times) to express to you how hard it is for me to discern how I really feel from how I (and you) think I should feel. mindreading I can't see the forest for the trees. It's like you just wanted is that what you wanted or intended? to keep plowing ahead through a snowbank that is completely frozen and all you're doing is packing the snow harder. PRESSURE Sometimes you have to give it time to thaw before you can start again." What does that mean to her?

She is giving you what you want. She is dying for you to see it. (not mind reading - it's the cat whisperer in me)

Originally Posted By: LanceSijan

In this cas you lead by detaching and giving her space.
Not by moving out. She needs room to breathe. Listen to what she says and take HER advice. She is telling you what she needs right now. Do you not believe her?

She doesn't feel like she has space in the house. What I've done to give her space hasn't changed how she feels about being suffocated.

Can I stay and force her to leave? Sure. It'll take a month of real pressure, pressure that can do just as much damage as me leaving. Will that really make a difference in how she feels about being suffocated?

She's not feeling like I'm abandoning her, but smothering her.

Pin,

Your W is screaming at you and YOUR pride is kicking your as*. That fuc*ing male ego is a bit*h isn't it.

Honestly dude, you want the best for your kids. Right? You want to write, and do stuff. Right? WTF is stopping you?

Stay in the house dude. Stop trying to force her to do something that right now she does not want to do.

Stop trying to ring a bell that cannot be unrung. Man up - change for YOU and maybe just maybe she may come around. By the look of her email to you I agree 100% with coach - she is watching.

Eric

Originally Posted By: Coach

Listen to what she is telling you:

Quote:

"Do you have any idea what it is like to feel like you are absolutely everything to someone? It's suffocating. I've tried (many times) to express to you how hard it is for me to discern how I really feel from how I (and you) think I should feel. mindreading I can't see the forest for the trees. It's like you just wanted is that what you wanted or intended? to keep plowing ahead through a snowbank that is completely frozen and all you're doing is packing the snow harder. PRESSURE Sometimes you have to give it time to thaw before you can start again." What does that mean to her?

She is giving you what you want. She is dying for you to see it. (not mind reading - it's the cat whisperer in me)

She's frustrated. She feels that I want and am pressuring her to feel one way regardless of her needs. She needs time, space and the freedom to understand what she wants.

She's torn because she feels one way, and thinks she should feel differently.

She thinks that time will help her make her choices easier.

Pin,

I can�t say it as eloquently as Coach, but I see where she feels pressured and pushed by you to love you and stay in the M. It is not that she does not want to love you, or stay married to you, but she feels inclined to do so because of the pressure she feels from you. I am not sure how structured your family life is, but maybe she feels it is too constrictive and that there is not enough �free� time to pursue individual interests.

It does happen in a M when you have children that one becomes so consumed with children and family activities that they tend to lose themselves and begin to rebel. IDK this is just my gut feeling from reading what your W wrote and from reading your thread.

Originally Posted By: ericmsant2

Pin,

Your W is screaming at you and YOUR pride is kicking your as*. That fuc*ing male ego is a bit*h isn't it.

Honestly dude, you want the best for your kids. Right? You want to write, and do stuff. Right? WTF is stopping you?

Stay in the house dude. Stop trying to force her to do something that right now she does not want to do.

Stop trying to ring a bell that cannot be unrung. Man up - change for YOU and maybe just maybe she may come around. By the look of her email to you I agree 100% with coach - she is watching.

Eric

Why is this such a litmus test?

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She's frustrated. She feels that I want and am pressuring her to feel one way regardless of her needs. She needs time, space and the freedom to understand what she wants.

She's torn because she feels one way, and thinks she should feel differently.

She thinks that time will help her make her choices easier.

Do you have EXPECTATIONS about this?

How much time do you "expect" it to take?

I am sure it will take longer than what you seem to think.

Quote:

I am sure it will take longer than what you seem to think.

Not really. Once you start making emotional connections, your wife feels seen, she feels free to pursue you (no pressure), and she feels secure in the marriage. She can fall back in love very quick. Take care of business. Once you understand what she wants and give it to her it's like magic. You won't ever look at women the same way again.

Attraction - Love - Intimacy

Originally Posted By: LanceSijan

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She's frustrated. She feels that I want and am pressuring her to feel one way regardless of her needs. She needs time, space and the freedom to understand what she wants.

She's torn because she feels one way, and thinks she should feel differently.

She thinks that time will help her make her choices easier.

Do you have EXPECTATIONS about this?

How much time do you "expect" it to take?

I am sure it will take longer than what you seem to think.

I started to type this:

Quote:

I don't know how long it will take. All I know is that it won't start until she doesn't feel the pressure from me. Removing the pressure may not start the process, or speed it up.

Then realized that I actually think that crisis and pressure encourage people to come to decisions, as opposed to wallowing in limbo. The story of the LBS is a testament to this.

As long as she doesn't have to make a decision, to clarify her thoughts, to reconcile the conflict between her feelings and her thinking, she won't.

I will move out. Do the activities that reward me, spend time with my daughters. Give her all the space she wants, only interact with her as needed to handle the logistics of co-parenting. Learn more about myself, maybe date casually or do social stuff to overcome some of my innate shyness and insecurity.

If she takes the opportunity to learn about herself, great. If not, over time we'll slowly lose the connection we've shared between us.

"I will move out. Do the activities that reward me, spend time with my daughters. Give her all the space she wants, only interact with her as needed to handle the logistics of co-parenting. Learn more about myself, maybe date casually or do social stuff to overcome some of my innate shyness and insecurity. "

Ya got you. I think the space she wants is emotional not physical. Some benefit to moving out in this respect but you'll loose out on opportunities to validate, connect, lead and all those "manly" virtues demanded of you and she may start an affair given she has it easy. Hard to change and GAL in the same house. Either way it's a slippery slope. When you're on one of these CYA.

How's your work going?
How's your work going?

Oh did I say you could change your mind?

I called her up to talk about her email. Probably validated the best I have. She really was happier at the end of the 30 minute call.

She said I had been doing a really good job of listening in the last three months, but about a month ago I turned into the old Pinhead, hearing what I wanted to hear. I need to go back and see where I was, what I was thinking, what I was doing.

It was a really good talk. Cleared up a lot of her stress and mine, we talked about how we could use boundaries to feel safe with the separation, just a lot of good communication.

It was a phone call, so I couldn't see her expressions, but she thanked me for calling, for listening. She did a good job of validating me as well.

Originally Posted By: fb2

Ya got you. I think the space she wants is emotional not physical. Some benefit to moving out in this respect but you'll loose out on opportunities to validate, connect, lead and all those "manly" virtues demanded of you and she may start an affair given she has it easy. Hard to change and GAL in the same house. Either way it's a slippery slope. When you're on one of these CYA.

Oh, I know it's emotional space she needs and wants.

I'll be seeing her every morning when I come over to get my girls ready for school. I'll also see her when she drops them off at my apartment on Mon/Tues. And I'll see her when I pick up the girls after church on Sundays. Plus she (or I depending on who has the girls) will be calling to say goodnight to our daughters each night. So lots of opportunities to connect.

I've also thought a lot about spending "family" time together for our movie night and Monopoly night, as well as Thanksgiving and Xmas. Those are pretty good opportunities to connect. I won't invite myself, and I won't be coming over every week for them, but I won't turn down any and all invites.

I can't stay in the house as a strategy to prevent her from having an affair. That never works.

Originally Posted By: fb2

Oh did I say you could change your mind?

Good. Thanks. Didn't know that.

(Pinhead, the master of changing his mind. If I had thought deeply for a moment when picking my forum name, I'd have selected Waffle.)

Your thread is large, pinhead, please start a new thread.

Originally Posted By: sgctxok

Your thread is large, pinhead, please start a new thread.

I did not notice the punctuation at first.

Can someone lock this thread please?

Originally Posted By: pinhead

She wrote me this email today in reply to some R talk that sprang up last night when we were talking about the separation:

"Do you have any idea what it is like to feel like you are absolutely everything to someone? It's suffocating. I've tried (many times) to express to you how hard it is for me to discern how I really feel from how I (and you) think I should feel. I can't see the forest for the trees. It's like you just wanted to keep plowing ahead through a snowbank that is completely frozen and all you're doing is packing the snow harder. Sometimes you have to give it time to thaw before you can start again."

WOW. Did she really write this?

PH,

You are running away when she's point blank telling you what she wants and needs.

You almost sound like you are trying to punish her for not being where you want her to be RIGHT NOW. I see you not getting your way, so you are giving up.

Why do you spend so much time on these boards? Just for $h!ts and giggles? Or to save yourself and your marriage?

I do not see you getting YOUR desired results/expectations met by physically moving out.

And like fb2 said.....You can change your mind.

Anytime you change your mind because of your self respect and your values you do it from a place of strength. That is a good thing and it's going to be hard for her to not respect that decision.

PH, don't move out. And you mentioned dating? In your sitch, you might as well just light your marriage certificate on fire and file divorce. Based on that email from her, you are obviously doing something that is working...why would you sabotage all your hard work now?

Quote:

Ya got you. I think the space she wants is emotional not physical. Some benefit to moving out in this respect but you'll loose out on opportunities to validate, connect, lead and all those "manly" virtues demanded of you and she may start an affair given she has it easy.

Really depends on the sitch. When my W indicated a desire to separate three years ago, I convinced her to stay and work on the marriage. I did GAL and change, which she acknowledged. We became better friends and talked more than we had in a long time. Our co-parenting became awesome. I implemented many of the DBing techniques pretty well.

Net result? Over a six month period, she secretly started an affair with an old flame, lied to me, used me, manipulated me, then moved out and brutalized me emotionally.

What would have worked when she initially said she wanted to separate was to give her what she wanted, on MY terms. She moves out, she provides for herself financially, we share custody, I give her absolutely nothing of myself, I immediately go out and start living my life for me, as a single man. Only then would she have truly understood the consequences of what she was doing.

Even after she left, I allowed her to have that precious "family time". All it did was allow her to cake eat, and delay her from coming to grips with what she was doing.