Well It's time to start a new thread as me and the stbex move to the next step. I have finally awaken the stbex she was served with papers Friday saying that she had to bring D-10 to court on Thursday and all he double hockey sticks broke out. I will post details later when I am at a computer
Friday stbex was served with a supina that D10 had to be in court. The stbex lost it she went on a rant she told D-10 that I was physico and crazy she told D-10 that she didn't like her, they got into major fight.
The stbex was taking all the kids to the Fort Wort zoo this weekend, but after her and D-10's fight D-10 ended up staying with her friend here in town, but no one told me. She told D-10 that she could not call me, or talk to me. D-10 called me Saturday morning and told me she was in town and that mom said if she talked to me or anything else she would call the cops and have me thrown in jail.
After that the stbex logged onto D-10's facebook account and wrote" I am having the time of my life at my best friends birthday party thanks mom I love you so much"
I guess she was going to print that and take it to court I don't know.
I have not talked to my boys she won't let them call me and she told D-10 that she is not going to let any of them talk to me.
I activated D-10's cell phone yesterday she's keeping it hidden from her mom I will not let her keep me from my kids.
Any way it sounds like the fight is on and the stbex has just lost it. Crap she was served with papers in June saying I was going for custody I really don't know what the surprise is.
40,
Sorry it's turning out so pear shaped. And it's got to be hard being kept from your kids. Be strong. Stand your ground, keep your eyes open and let your kids know you love them at every opportunity.
I'm 4 days away from being divorced I'm going to a girls house tonight and I refuse to feel guilty tomorrow morning, I'm through. Have a good night every one.
I wussed out and didn't do what I went do :-(
Nothing new today but I am trying to figure out if your daughter is supinad to to testify in court why in the world would the stbex take it out on her tell her that she don't like her any more then post that fake crap on D-10's facebook. It just makes no sence. I really thought she would kiss her butt and try to turn her on me.
2 days away from D-Day, D-10 snuck in her room and called me last night and told me that mom took her boyfriend to Fort Worth with the boys this weekend. I talked to S-7 last night first time I have talked to him since last Wednesday his mother made him talk on speaker phone, I cant stand that, good thing I recorded it so the judge can see how she acts.
I called my Lawyer this morning to see about getting S-7 subpoena'd, he's in court today and we are running out of time. She has given me plenty of ammunition I just hope and pray I get to use most of it.
I have felt pretty good but now I am getting nevrous oh I just want to get my kids and get this over with.
Strength and Honor 40.
You likely won't get everything you want, but you will get access to your children which is more than you have now.
You know, sometimes we work on ourselves because we're the ones that we can change, but sometimes it's just about the other person. I think something flipped in your STBEX's brain and she's just at a different place than her marriage now.
You could have been the old spice guy and she would have still run screaming. That's what she needed to do: run screaming.
You will have access to your kids after DDay and you will have the backing of the people of Texas to enforce it.
SpinFree
Well its official no D-Day the judge singed the motion for a continuance today, and appointed the child gardian, now back in a holding pattern.
STBEX still has crap behavior she called me and told me that she is taking all of our kids to Corpus this weekend to a wedding that she had spoke to a lawyer and that if I didnt like it I could kiss her ***. I hung up on her, I refuse to have anything to do with her, the sight of her disgust me I cant beleave I ever wanted her back.
Just get this over with already, I guess I should be happy because I filed the motion but still I am so ready to dump her
You have my prayers, 40.
As do your children.
I dont know about the law in Texas. It may be similar to Oregon's no fault law in that an affair has no significance on the outcome of a divorce proceeding.
However, exposing the kids to her affairs is an entirely different thing. It is irresponsible and is indicitive of a person that is not a fit parent. My wife exposed our kids to her affair and my L told me that I had an excellent case to get full custody even though the court was unfair against fathers. After a bit of a legal shock and awe offensive on my part, and time for both sides to cool down, we ended up settling for 50/50 custody, which was best for our kids.
I hope your lawyer is experienced so as to do what is right for the kids best interest.
Right now, your situation sounds eerily similar to what my brother went through. His wife and evil MIL basically took his son from him and he did not see his son for several months. He then lost in the D because of the biased court system that favors stay at home drug addicted mom's over working fathers. But years later he won full custody because of abuse his ex wife did to their son. His ex wife spiraled through many men and alcohol/drugs over the years, ultimately taking her own life. And my brother has been happily remarried for around 15 years.
I wish for your best outcome. You and your L definitely have some ammunition. Things will get better.
I dont know about the law in Texas. It may be similar to Oregon's no fault law in that an affair has no significance on the outcome of a divorce proceeding.
Kerry the Fathers rights org that I belong to that is based in Dallas told me that her adultery would not play a part in the judges decision. My lawyer tells me here in my little ultra conservative corner of the world it will have a great influence. I don’t know, but I do know that her taking my kids around 7 men and now spending the weekend with them is very bad, my lawyer also told me that the falling grades and her not helping with home work along with not listing me when she registered the kids at school will be very bad for her.
I think my lawyer is a good lawyer but I get upset because he does not return phone calls, I wanted to fire him back in June but the other lawyers I spoke to told me that would be a mistake because he is very good and has a very good working relationship with the judge. A local lawyer here in town told me that my lawyer and the Judge I have hunt deer together and have been for 20 years, I don’t know my lawyer is liberal and does not seem like the deer hunting type, as long as he is effective I could care less about our political differences.
A local lawyer here in town told me that my lawyer and the Judge I have hunt deer together and have been for 20 years, I don’t know my lawyer is liberal and does not seem like the deer hunting type, as long as he is effective I could care less about our political differences.
I also could have cared less about my L's political differences than mine. He did seem concerned about our guns and I reassured him that I had a 3rd party keep them while the D was proceeding.
Does your L have a paralegal? I would always do as much possible with the paralegal because she was less expensive and would bring things to his attention when I needed his legal expertise.
Yes he has two but they seem only to do his paperwork I have never had any contact with them.
We both have guns in our houses and no one has ever said a word about that it has not even came up.
Nothing new to post today, getting D-10 a cell phone that she is hideing from her mother has been good she is only one of my kids I get to talk to right now. She called me this morning when the STBEX was in the shower. I know the STBEX hates me Im OK with that as I'm not too fond of her either but I dont understand her keeping the kids from me. I'm not going to play her games and her making the kids talk to me on speaker phone is just not right.
I wish we could move your thread over to the Surviving the Big D forum. There are some people there that have gone through the legal stuff with a hostile spouse that could possibly give you some excellent advice.
How are you handling yourself emotionally? Do you see yourself moving on ok after the custody/legal issues settle?
How are you handling yourself emotionally? Do you see yourself moving on ok after the custody/legal issues settle?
90% of the time I am fine, sometimes I get down because I miss my kids. I will be fine, I am looking forward to buying a house and getting out of my jail cell apartment. My kids want a place outside of town where they can have horses and shoot there BB guns, this will be a big change from the country club that they grew up in.
I am just ready to get this over with, if my wife gets custody I will not have a good relationship with my kids, if I get custody I will do everything I can to help my kids stay attached to her..
I am just ready to get this over with, if my wife gets custody I will not have a good relationship with my kids, if I get custody I will do everything I can to help my kids stay attached to her..
So fight with everything you have. You can fight for your kids and still take the high road. You'll never go wrong doing what's right.
IMO, she does not deserve the kid glove treatment from you. This is her choice and, in the end, all you are doing is giving her what she wants; freedom.
Stay strong, 40.
I agree and hope that's what I am doing. I am fighting her using every ounce of info I can taped phone calls facebook pages and yes my kids. To every one that says not to involve your kids they are probably waw who don't want there kids to know what they are up to, oh I forgot mine tells ours what she's up to.
To every one that says not to involve your kids they are probably waw who don't want there kids to know what they are up to,
110% correct.
D-10 called me this morning and told me that Momma slapped her last night. Then she had to let me go, I do not have any details and dont know what to do. Do I call my lawyer and tell him, or wait and get details.
I know the STBEX is going to accuse me of being a child abuser, I know thats coming, my wife never did anything like that in the past but I must say it dont suprise me.
All my kids are going to talk to the child advocate so what do I do sit on this foe a while. Some one please guide me.
40,
I would find out the story from your D10.Then approach your L. Nothing will come from confronting W. IMO
Keep being the best dad for your kids. They will know the truth.
40,
I would find out the story from your D10.Then approach your L. Nothing will come from confronting W. IMO
Keep being the best dad for your kids. They will know the truth.
I will not get any details from D-10 until next week they all left for the Texas Coast this morning, and D-10 did not take her phone.
This just makes me so mad, I am not wanting to start a child abuse war with the STBEX our kids have never been abused, corrected yes, abused no I really don’t want to get this started, I know she is going to accuse me of this because she is telling everyone this is why she filed, not one ounce of truth in it but you know WAW rewrite history.
Monday night I have tickets to a big huge party to kickoff the start of a trade show, I had originally planned to take a date because it would have been after the trial. Now since I am still not divorced I guess I will give the tickets to the girl I was taking and tell her to have fun. My friends tell me to go have fun, the girls I work with who have been so supportive of me and who remained friends with my wife on facebook allowing me to mine the majority of the dirt I have on the old hag are asking me if I think its very smart taking a date, and my inner self says don't do it nothing good can come from it, and the last thing I need to do is make the girls I work with mad at me so I guess it's no parties for me next week, dang there will be some fun ones in town oh well this same trade show with the same parties will be here in 2 years again.
Smart drug dealers (oxymoron?) have a saying, "Don't use your biz stash." I think that applies to getting too involved where you work.
Down South we say, "Don't crap where you eat".
If you ain't divorced, don't take a date to a work function. Plain and simple. Some folks frown on those sorts of carryings on.
This ain't rocket surgery.
Don't take a date. Either go by yourself or don't go.
Soleil I am choosing option # 2. I am just not going to go, my friends that are telling me to go are not the ones in a custody fight. It would have been fun, and I would have taken a date had my divorce happened, but it didn't and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
Good choice. There will be plenty opportunities once you are through the legal hurdles.
Just document the slapping and let your L decide what to do about it. Hopefully, the child advocate will hear of this first hand from your daughter.
PS. I used to live in Corpus Christi Texas for a couple years while in the Coast Guard. Good times. You Texans are the friendliest people around.
This ain't rocket surgery.
... or brain science!
LOL!
Awww my stbex took all of our kids and om#7 to her cousins wedding in corpus this weekend and she was nice enough to leave om#7's parked in my driveway so I could take pictures of his pickup parked there tonight. She's the gift that just keeps giving.
I'm going to take pictures of it tomorrow on the way to work just for good measure. I think I will break out the cannon rebel dslr and take some nice portraits. Isn't that romantic!
Emotions are funny things, the first part of this week my stomache was tied up in knots because of the court date, now I'm kind of down in the dumps because it didn't happen.
I know this holding pattern sucks, from early August until 10-7-10 every thing was cool because I was getting to see my kids. Last thursday she found out we were trying to get a Child advocate for our kids and since that time she has not let me see my kids and is back to her old tricks of making them talk to me on speaker phone, not letting them call me, telling the kids how bad I am and that I am trying to take them away from her, no I not I fighting to remain part of my kids life. She should be happy she married a man who gives a crap, many walk away from their famlies without a fight.
It disgusts me what she is doing to your kids. She is doing perhaps the worst mistake of all - Parental Alienation (see #8 in the quoted list).
The child advocate should pick up on this.
It may very well come back to bite her in court if she does not start co-parenting with you correctly.
1. Leaning on your child for support during this time of pain in your life is unhealthy and inappropriate. Children can not help their parents through the adult task of mourning the loss of a marriage! And loyalty issues will leave a child feeling guilty for siding against a parent or possibly disproportionately angry at a parent for leaving him with this burden. This is the time to lean on family and friends so you are strong enough to allow your child to lean on you.
2. You should never speak badly about your ex to or in front of the children. Although it may be difficult, it is not healthy for the children to take on your adult issues, even if they directly relate to the child. As a common example, a parent should not share with a child whether or not the other parent is paying child support, how much child support or when the child support doesn't come in no matter how tempting it may be. Because your child shares flesh and bone with your ex, any criticism of your ex will also feel like a criticism of the child and will erode his or her self esteem. This is never healthy and is certainly not productive.
3. Treating your child like a buddy and relating to him or her as a peer is a common change that occurs after some divorces. While it may be tempting to commiserate with your child since you have both lost something important in your lives, your losses are different. Your child is not a mini-adult!
4. Mothers of sons and fathers of daughters should be particularly careful that they do not put their oldest child into the position of "replacement spouse", "man of the house", "woman of the house", etc. Children need to feel like children and feel the security of knowing their parent can and will take care of all adult responsibilities.
5. Spoiling your child in order to divert his grief or pain is not a healthy way of dealing with his pain or yours. If you are the parent who has moved away from your child, you may have an even larger temptation to fight off since your time together will be so limited now. It feels important to make that time memorable to your child and what child doesn't love new toys? But more than toys, a child needs to feel stable and safe. This can be obtained through parenting "as usual", despite the changing life around you all. No child wants a toy to replace a parent.
6. Transferring your hostile feelings about the divorce or your ex onto your child is unhealthy, at best. Many children already feel like divorce is their fault when, of course, it never is. Although your child shares blood and genes with your ex, whom you may resent and despise, the child did not choose for any of this to happen.
7. Never discuss parenting time, custody or child support issues in front of the kids. This means no discussions during routine transfers of the children from one home to the other. It means no cell phone conversations with your children sitting in the back seating listening in. It means waiting until they go to bed or are out of the area before making phone calls to discuss adult issues. You probably felt it was important not to argue in front of your children when you were still married with your ex. This is just as important now that you are divorced! Even if you can discuss issues civilly, children should not be privy to them. It is far too common for children to overhear these discussions and feel as if they are the cause of the issue or they are a burden to one parent or the other. Children do not like to feel like a business transaction!
8. Alienating a child from the other parent is an all-too-common, often subconscious tactic that parents may use during or after a divorce. Alienating is a form of brainwashing where one repeatedly insists, to the child, that facts and feelings exist between the other parent and the child until the child begins to agree, whether true or not. When alienated long enough, children may resist any bond with the other parent and that parent may, out of frustration and hopelessness, sever ties with the child. This is the worst no-no any divorcing parent can commit and it has a name: Parental Alienation Syndrome.
9. Putting your child in the middle is one of the most common divorce no-no's. Asking your child questions about the other parent or time spent with the other parent, or asking your child to relay questions and information between parents are all harmful methods of putting the child in the middle. Parents should always communicate all issues privately between themselves and any questions or concerns about the other parent's home or situation should be directed at the parent, not the child.
10. Never put your child in the position of choosing. Most states have statues that require a child to be almost an adult before being capable of choosing where they want to live. Some states never allow the child this choice. This is because a child has natural healthy loyalty toward both parents. Being asked to make any choice between parents - whether the choice is who has custody or whose house the child wants to spend Christmas at - puts the child in the awkward position of shifting their loyalty away from one parent in favor of the other. This can leave them feeling guilty, resentful, angry and sad.
11. Don't make your child's special occasion an opportunity to focus on your marital resentment or hostility. Let your child's birthdays, holidays, school performances, dance recitals and sports events all be opportunities to focus on your child and how proud you are of your child. This is not the time to discuss parenting time issues, child support issues or to berate each other or ex-relatives. If you question your ability to be polite or civil, consider taking turns at special events or limiting your attendance. Often times, though, events will be large enough for parents to both attend at opposite ends of the room, leaving the child to interact freely with both sides of the family without fear of disruption or drama.
12. Although going through a divorce can make a parent feel emotionally needy, this should not be shared with your child through action or word. A child who feels a parent's neediness too much will begin feeling guilty or fearful of leaving the parent when it is time to spend time with the other parent. In some situations, children can feel so guilty that they no longer feel good about leaving the parent at all, even to go to school or to play at a friend's house. This is a huge burden to cast on a child.
I found this on the web she has done almost all of them.
http://www.austindivorcehelp.com/how-to-guarantee-a-divorce-from-hell
1.Lie. - It's critical that you and your attorney trust each other. So why not lie to them? That's really a great strategy.
2.Get your kids involved. - Divorce is unpleasant enough on it's own. If you really get your kids involved and start using them against each other it's easy to make it much, much worse - on you and your kids. So go ahead, get a good custody battle going. Make your kids miserable. (If you pursue this strategy, I recommend saving money for therapy.)
3.Start dating immediately. - If you'd like to make your spouse even less willing to try to reach an agreement, then start dating - and make sure you tell them about it.
4.Raid the bank accounts. - This is a great way to let everyone know that you are the "bad spouse." Cut your spouse off from all your assets and don't let them have any money to live or to hire an attorney.
5.Start making big purchases. - Spend, spend, spend. This one does two things. First, it's just more stuff to try and divide during the divorce. Second, since money is often an issue in divorces in the first place, it can give you just a little bit more to argue about.
6.Don't do anything. - If you really want to frustrate everyone, including your own lawyer, don't do anything. Don't call anyone back. Don't respond to emails or letters or show up for meetings.
7.Don't listen to your lawyer, get legal advice from your friends and family. - This is a personal favorite of mine. I know you hired an attorney to guide you thought this legal matter, but he or she couldn't possibly know as much about the law as your aunt Dorothy who has been divorced 3 times.
8.Hire the most expensive attorney in town. - There are some attorneys in town that won't even talk to you unless you can pay at least a $25,000 retainer. If you really want to nuke all your family's financial resources while fighting with your spouse, make sure you talk to one of these lawyers.
I took one small step toward getting parts of my old life back today. During the summer my membership to the local gun club expired and I did not renew because I didn't care about anything. I sent my renewal check today.
I plan on shooting in a IDPA match next month, a small step to getting back on with life but a step.
Next year hopefully I wont have child support chewing up 45% of my pay and legal bills out the butt, then I can get a deer lease again, I think the time spent at the deer lease with my kids has formed some of my best memories ever.
I am in a good mood today the stbex just keeps giving the gift of giving, I have great pics of OM7's pickup in my driveway and the kids called me this morning twin2 was talking to me on the phone when he said OM7 is driving the phone went silent then D-10 called back and said twin2 accidently hung up on me!!! the best part I have it recorded!!!
Hey 40,
Hang in there, brother. Dont let all this own you.
I have great pics of OM7's pickup in my driveway
WTF! What is going on with her???
Does she not see the harm she's doing to the kids bringing OM into their lives?
I hope you get full custody.
Your kids will be better off.
I just looked up what the Texas deer lease is. I did not know that Texas has very little federal or state owned land available for hunting. I would imagine that hunting on private property with the lease program is probably pretty good. Do you ever get any mule deer?
No we hunt too far east to ever see mulies the ranchers here in Texas have made deer hunting there cash crop it is very exensive. To hunt mulies here your looking at $5000.00 for a weekend. I normally get a year round lease where we can hunt anything for $2000.00 Or so each
Yikes! There is nothing wrong with white tail considering that price. I bet a bull elk is probably priced on the number of points.
I have great pics of OM7's pickup in my driveway
WTF! What is going on with her???
Does she not see the harm she's doing to the kids bringing OM into their lives?
I hope you get full custody.
Your kids will be better off.
No I dont think she has a clue, how bad she is hurting the kids. Last night when they got home I ask if they could come and stay the night to make up for Thursday and she told the kids no they would have to wait until my weekend before they could see me, I told the kids to let me talk to her they handed her the phone and she hung up with out talking to me I called back and she answered and pushed down on a key so all you could here was beep.
Later after the kids went to bed I drove by the house and his pickup was parked there again.
I don’t know why but shes not hiding her adultery from any one now. She took him out of town with my kids two weekends in a row, and last weekend she was around all of her family so I guess they are all ok with her adultery. Funny thing is I always had a great relationship with my in laws, never a cross word with them, I have deer hunted, bird hunted, elk hunted, deep sea fished, bay fished, bass fished with my father in law, I thought we were buds. Soon as I busted wife’s 1st affair they have not spoken to me, I guess because I am trying to get custody of my kids. Duh what did they expect I though they knew me.
It never ceases to amaze me how off the deep end things can get with WAS's.
Perhaps your inlaws dont know the whole story either. a month ago I told my XW that we need to wrap up the annulment. She suggested I use her mother as a witness. I then told her that I will discuss whatever I need to in order to make it happen and that includes all her dirty little secrets over the past few years. It was the first time I saw her snap out of la-la land in two years. Her fantasy world was threatened because she had been lying all along.
At some point you have to defend your character.
They most likely are not happy with what she has done, but they are compelled to support their own daughter. Dont take it too personal that they are not talking with you, because if they did, it would only make for more drama.
I called back and she answered and pushed down on a key so all you could here was beep.
She is quite an azzhole!
The word I used started with a c but I like yours better it's a bit nicer.
Well I was going to go on my first date tonight then the d didn't happen so I gave my tickets to the party to the girl I was going with and told her to have fun. I was not going any where tonight then my buddy called so I am going to the party with a friend. Who knows may meet a cuter girl there anyway :-)
Not much happening have not spoke with my kids since Sunday can't wait to get this crap over with and get my kids away from her.
Tried to call my kids tonight the stbex has blocked my cell phone and house phone I can not call my kids right now.
You are dealing with batchit crazy.
Document it.
As for seeing any other women...you should indeed hold off if there is a chance that it could hurt your case.
One ugly thing to keep in mind is this unconstitutional law called VAWA (violence against women act) that "girly-man" Joe Biden was largely responsible for during the Clinton years. You may already be aware of it through fathers rights groups. It was meant to protect women from violent men, but some lawyers and women have abused it by falsely claiming they feel threatened and then they have a huge advantage in the legal system. Phyllis Schlafly has written some very good articles about why this is unconstitutional legislation that needs to be re-worked so as to not make men second class citizens in divorce.
D-10 text me tonight and told me the whole story. The stbex got a baby sitter for the kids so she could go on a date with om#7. Before she left she blocked the phone so the kids could not call me and I could not call them. She didn't want me to know what she was up to.
Thank goodness I bought D-10 a phone she is bidding from her mom.
I miss my kids so much 2 and a half weeks since I saw them this is the longest time I have ever been away from my kids.
Thank goodness I bought D-10 a phone she is bidding from her mom.
smart move, I'm thinking about doing this for my kids.
Sorry to hear you haven't seen your kids for so long. 4 days is bad, I could image two and a half weeks.
Hang in there buddy.
Wow, 40. As hard as this is, it sounds like you are doing all of the right things. Document everything. Take pictures. Dates, times, etc.
You are not dealing with a sane person. She really is in la-la land. She doesn't realize that she is giving you all of the ammunition that you need.
I, too, am sorry that you have to go so long without seeing your kids. Great idea on the "secret" phone. Stay strong and stay smart.
Talked to the lawyer this morning he told me that he would call the stbex lawyer he thought he could get this little problem fixed today.
You gotta wonder what goes on when the divorce lawyers talk privately to each other sometime. The coorespondence I saw between the lawyers in my divorce was very professional. When we met at the courthouse, I enjoyed the short conversation with my lawyer and her laywer over coffee before she showed up with a big bitchy scowl on her face.
I got my fingers crossed for a happy outcome for you and your kids. Hopefully, both lawyers will put what is best for the kids in all decisions.
The Texas Texas A&M game comes to mind when I think of what they are talking about.
The stbex got a baby sitter for the kids so she could go on a date with om#7.
Zomg! 7?!
The Texas Texas A&M game comes to mind when I think of what they are talking about.
Or what's in their golf bag.
The stbex got a baby sitter for the kids so she could go on a date with om#7.
Zomg! 7?!
Sad but true!
Talked to the lawyer this morning he told me that he would call the stbex lawyer he thought he could get this little problem fixed today.
Good call. Fight for your kids. I know you are.
Do not let her call the shots any longer!
Good luck.
I saw my kids tonight for the first time since 10-6-10. I wish I could say we had a wonderful time but sadly that's not the case. My kids are going through a lot and they are hurting they spent the night telling me what mom has been up to/ I'm just going to hit the 2 highest spots or lowest I should say
1. When the STBEX took my kids to the fort worth zoo the weekend of 10-08-10 her boyfriend OM#7 spanked one of my twins.
2. On the Corpus Christi trip last weekend OM# 7 spanked the same twin.
3. The school is talking about removing S-7 from second grade and putting him back in first grade, you think that I would hear this from the school or the STBEX but no I hear this from D-10
I am so mad I could spit nails.
The call to the lawyer today really helped she still has my phones blocked
Contact your L right away about the OM spanking your kids. Now they are in physical harm. You need to get the away from him ASAP.
I will asap in the morning. Does any one have any experience with this can I get a restraining order on him?
Document everything. Get phone records to show how many times you've tried to call your crazy W. You need things to back up your claim that you are trying to stay in contact with your kids.
Geez, 40...you have one of the more extreme cases here. Maybe you can get a court-ordered psychological evaluation. How can you let someone you barely know even near your children??!!
Is there a child advocate that should be hearing some of this...from the kids?
I will asap in the morning. Does any one have any experience with this can I get a restraining order on him?
You can
always ask for one. It's up to the judge to decide if you can get one.
SpinFree
Is there a child advocate that should be hearing some of this...from the kids?
If there isn't an attorney ad litem here, there sure should be. If there isn't an ad litem law in Texas here is cause celebre.
SpinFree, not an attorney
We had a child advocate and she has been appointed as of 10-13-2010, she is working a case that is in court next week, she should make first contact with me the week after next according to my lawyer this morning. I want to get aggressive and go after them with a temporary restraining order my lawyer said we could do that but does not feel this is the best way to Handel it. He wants me to remain calm and let the child advocate get involved before we do anything.
I have sent him a letter with a somewhat less aggressive move that he should answer me on Monday'
40's Lawyer
Lawyer if we file an injunction that enjoins Jenifer from allowing OM#7 or any other boyfriend to disciplining my children would that not bring this out in the open and make it harder for Jenifer and her counsel to sweep this under the table. I respect your opinion and will not go against your advice but my gut tells me to be very aggressive with this situation.
40
xxx-xxx-xxxx
My lawyer told me to call her and tell her not to let anyone touch my kids again, that we had evidence that om7 had spanked twin 1 on 2 separate occasions and we were going to use it in court, any further instances of this would result in immediate court action
her reply was to tell me F%%% Off I hung up at that point.
I have S-7 recorded telling me how OM-7 spanked twin1 burnt on cd and delivered to lawyer this afternoon.
40,
1) Listen to your lawyer.
2) Listen to your heart.
3) If necessary, replace lawyer, go to 1)
Dude, after your "convo" with wife, this is a fight you MUST fight. Even if you lose, if you go down swinging, your children will remember that somebody stood up for them. Somebody thought that they were important. You take care of you and gird your loins for battle. If you fight for your children and they know that all you wanted was a healthy life for them, you CAN'T lose.
I wish somebody had felt that way during my parents' divorce 30 years ago.
You have no way of controlling what the judge does. You control *you*. Your children will never forget that you fought for them.
The armor is on. The destrier is saddled. Lower your lance, 40. The thunder of your charge will echo throughout their life.
SpinFree, who simultaneously wishes every battle in life was this clear-cut and is glad that they aren't because those that are suck
Geez, 40...you have one of the more extreme cases here. Maybe you can get a court-ordered psychological evaluation. How can you let someone you barely know even near your children??!!
Already tried that the judge would not sign it
Lol it's kind of funny but the stbex was all defiant on the phone yesterday. Then last night when I picked the kids up she's all fake smiles, I think she may be a little worried right now. And it's as if it's magic the phone started working last night. I bet money it quits working tomorrow.
On a funny note Sunday night I took pics of om7 truck parked at my house when the kids were home. D-10 saw a camera flash when she was in bed and went to tell mom but moms door was locked. He left about 5 minutes after I took pics so I guess I interrupted their fun.
Ha Ha! Maybe we could give you a new nickname... "coitus interruptus"
Sunday nights just suck. There is nothing in the world harder than taking your kids who don't want to go home to a mom who don't deserve them.
The stbex just wont learn that every thing she says or dose will be used against her.
Thursday night D-10 has a Halloween party for her pepet squad, so I sent her Mom an email this morning with a copy of her invitation
stbex (crazy physco (the crazy physco part is not really there just wishing) , D-10 has a Halloween party 10-28-10. I think the best way to handle it is for me to take D-10 on Wednesday so she can go to the party.
To which she replies
40,
We have plans of Wednesday, but you are more than welcome to pick D-10 up from school on Thursday to spend time with her and take her to her party at 6:30 pm. or when you come pick up the boys u can drop D-10 off with me at 6:00 and I will take her to the party.
To which I reply
Ok I will pick them up at school on Thursday, then drop D-10 off when I get the Twins.
40
Now the good part she is such a B
I'm picking up S-7 Thursday. You just need to pick up D-10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Understand!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yes I do understand I forwarded this to the lawyer along with a note about how this is just another example of how STBEX tries to limit time with my kids.
I tihnk this attitude is either a tactic, or her just lashing out at you because your WAW perceves you as being in control of yourself and more or less your condition/ situation and she is not. Her plans are going the way she had hoped.
sorry, her plans are NOT going according to her plan.
I think it is a tactic, or she has guilt (I'm not sure if she knows what this is)turned into rage, I have done nothing to her she is lashing out for no reason. I'm OK with this does not bother me at all because I am through with her.
After the STBEX and my email exchanges this morning i sent her a second email requesting make up time for the Thursday night we missed when she took the kids to corpus.
We still have to make up a night for 10-14-10 when you had the kids in Corpus. As you know I ask you for them the night you returned to make up the time but I was not allowed to see them. When do you want to let the kids see their father to make up for the night they missed.
40
I think I will start sending this email to her every day along with a CC to the lawyer.
At some point, you have to decide if things are beyond the point of no return. Things can turn around.
Or not.
When things got to a point for me I decided that I would play nice and not stir the pot. I kept quiet about where I was with the divorce and what I had in my back pocket. She had no idea what hit her. As it turned out, this was the best strategy as but the time the D was final, I came out on top with less debt and I was able to retain the same or better quality of life than I had when I was married.
She on the other hand was strapped with a lot of debt and saw a significant lowering of her standard of living. I was polite and considerate; I left her alone and made it easy...it could have gotten very ugly considering the info I had.
I moved on and have a great job, travel and have a new wonderful woman in my life that is now the beneficiary of all the changes I made in my life. My XW, now supports and lives with her unemployed OM and has bill collectors calling. She made these decisions and must live with them.
What I am saying is make the best of your situation. Be careful about stirring the pot. What's best for you and your children?
I really don't intend on stirring the pot I just want my time with the kids. If I send the same email every day she can't say I did not ask.
Well the email exchange continued today, with my first email.
STBEX,
As you know we still have to make up for visitation for the night of 10-14-10 when you had the kids in Corpus. As you know I ask you for them the night you returned to make up the time but I was not allowed to see them. When do you want to let the kids see their father to make up for the night they missed.
40
STBEX Reply
40 you are more than welcome to call me and we can set something up. We are busy nearly everynight but I am sure we can work something out over the phone. Last time I talked to you you hung up on me then I called you again and you picked up the phone and hung it right back up. As your aware D-10 and S-7 are in tutoring for there math which has been a great SUCCESS. They are doing very well in there math now. I just thought I would let you know how well they are doing. Also S-7 teacher is so amazed by his work here lately and the tutoring a couple times a week has paid off GREATLY. But yes you can call me when you decide not to hang up on me and we for sure can work something out on the makeup time for the thursday of 10-14.
STBEX
My reply back
STBEX,
It is hard for me to call and set up something over the phone since you have my number blocked on every number I try to reach you on. I had to borrow a phone from a coworker just to get through to you concerning you allowing OM#7 to spank our children and this was advised by my attorney. Since we are no longer together I will not tolerate being condescended to on the phone. I do not have to put up with you treating me badly anymore.
I have access to the kids grades and I can see for myself that they still are not doing well as of Saturday. So unless something has drastically changed since Saturday I think there are still a lot of problems with their grades.
So let me know what number to call you at so that we can set up a time for me to get the kids for the makeup time they missed on their "family" trip to Corpus.
Below this email I placed a screen shot of S-7’s grades as of the last update on the school website indicating that he is still failing 2 subjects.
She made 2 replies
I talked to S-7 Teacher Friday!!! S-7 is doing fine and will do even better next report card. They get report cards this week
Then she replied with this
you know my home number and work number 40
I don’t know maybe I do want to stir the pot a little. I would love for her to lash out and return a really stupid email. I know how to push her buttons and when she starts using multiple punctuation marks she is on the verge of loosing it.
I will not respond to her again until I call her tonight to see what we can work out.
Some time you just have to be thankful for the gifts that come your way.
The weekend of 10-14-10 my STBEX took all the kids to Corpus for a cousins wedding, well today her cousin could not wait to share her wedding photos with the world she was so nice posting 256 pictures from her wedding to the wide open internet, LOL yep you guessed it 3 pics of all of my kids, the STBEX and OM#7 posing as a big happy family.
Woo wee! That woman is in full rebellion. Absolutely no awareness of the damage she is doing to herself or your kids.
Typical bull in a china shop.
Well I guess the STBEX had a friendly little chat with her lawyer because after 15 emails and 2 hang up phone calls this week she sends me this email
40,
I spoke with you this morning and friday was fine with you to pick up the kids at 4:00 pm. I will pick up the 4 kids from school and we will see you at 4:00 pm to make up your 2 hours with the kids. I am sure they are going to be excited and I know they cant wait for you to take them trick or treating this weekend. What fun yall will have
We will see you friday at 4:00 and have a GREAT rest of the day and early Happy Halloween.
STBEX
Journaling
Sometimes I just wish I could go asleep wake up and be through this. Maybe now I’m getting caught up in the fantasy divorce Ideal. I am tired of living in a “Jail Cell” apartment, tired of hearing the nabors bump heads on my wall every night, tired of being in limbo, and most of all tired of not seeing my kids. I think I am ready to move on I miss the companionship and the sandwiches that a steady relationship brings, I think sometimes I will never find anyone who will accept me for me with my kids, I’m ok with that my kids need me more than I need female companionship, but I still miss it.
I really think I am doing OK back at the first of this month I was really depressed, the STBEX has replaced most of that with anger for the way she has treated my kids.
I’m just rambling I have so many thoughts and no words to tie my thoughts together oh well I have my kids two weekends in a row so that is something to look forward to.
I think sometimes I will never find anyone who will accept me for me with my kids,
I have to disagree with you here.
I have been find out from women that it is very attractive to be a great dad.
It's like a puppy at the beach.
Think positive. Feel good about yourself. The ladies will come.
40,
I agree with gr8...This is a creappy time for most of us on this site, but better days are a head. You will find a wonderful W who will appreciate what you can bring to her life. What we have to remember are all of the things we have learned as WAS and on this site to ensure that we nurture a healthy, happy R.
I could date now I have opportunities but since I am trying to get custody based on the fact my STBEX is acting like a tramp I kind of think it is wise not to be acting like her. I messed up a few times right after separation and always felt bad, and like a cheater so I decided that I was going to be good until the D was final which I have been. One night 4 days before the D was supposed to go to trial I decided I was going to be bad went to spend the night with a "friend" ;-) and could not go through with it.
So here I am. I get mad at myself if I do it, and mad at myself if I don’t.
I know that in the eyes of the State of Texas me and the STBEX are still married, but I surly don’t feel married. I just have to remember that this is not about me it's about making it as good as I can for my kids.
One thing the past 5 months have taught me is living in limbo sucks you don’t get the benefit of being married or divorced.
Oh and cheaters always lie
Those are about the only things my I am sure of at this point and time.
40,
I have been keeping up on your sitch and I am sorry that your W is behaving like a tramp. But as they say what goeas around comes around keep on your steady course. I decided to start dating, but keeping a distance since my STBXW and I are both dark and we have no kids together. I told her to file and so I set and wait, but eventually I will once the right time comes.
I think sometimes I will never find anyone who will accept me for me with my kids,
I have to disagree with you here.
I have been find out from women that it is very attractive to be a great dad.
It's like a puppy at the beach.
Some day I hope you are right!!!!
Think positive. Feel good about yourself. The ladies will come.
Even a year from now, life will be completely different. You will find yourself and peace with all this.
I think sometimes I will never find anyone who will accept me for me with my kids,
I have to disagree with you here.
I have been find out from women that it is very attractive to be a great dad.
It's like a puppy at the beach.
Think positive. Feel good about yourself. The ladies will come.
40,
Read on his blog about how sexy it was to take his daughter to the rainforest cafe...
Women want family men. Read all this blog. It gives everyone hope...
SpinFree
why is it that it doesn't work that way for women? double standard.
13 minutes until it time to go get the kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope every one has a great weekend
Just when you think the world can't get any less morals something always shows you it can get worse. One of D-10s friends grand dad was asking D-10 about her mom. That's just gross!
Perhaps more people know whats going than you think....
Maybe I was taking what D-10 was saying the wrong way. I had not though of the angel you are looking at
My marriage is so over, I don't want my cheating wife back if she came with millions. Why do I feel guilty about thinking about other women. Tonight I am going to hang with my ex girlfriend I always have fun with her I like her the s with her is way better than it ever was with the wife. So why will I go over there thinking about not backing out then leave before anything happens? Why I'm tired of being good.
40,
Right before my D was final, I had a little fling. Mostly because I needed to feel some sort of intimacy...something I hadnt felt for a long time. I regret not waiting until after the the D, but it was the beginning of me feeling strong again. I learned that I deserved to be treated well. Dont feel be about having these feelings...they are normal It is my advice to wait until after the D though. At least you know you did the right thing and you will have at least given yourself enough time.
I know that my marriage is over, I have oppotunities to act single and I dont do it. I just want to get this crap over with and get on with the rest of my life.
Bad luck today, the STBEX blocked a girl I work with on her facebook, lost my main avenue for dirt on the stbex. :-(
Same thing happen with me at one point.
Yeah, it's probably for the best anyway. Facebook is evil. It can be an avenue with which someone can reconnect and start a EA or even PA. It will also drive you nuts by obcessing. It's better to just stay off of it and move on.
I agree facebook is evil, but I was happy to copy all the dirt on her that I could. I have other friends who are friends with her, just this girl at work gave me a free pass with her facebook, she would logon to her account with my laptop and give my computer back to me she offerd to give me her password but I declined because I would have become obsessed with it I know me. Oh well I have hundreds of screen shots, with her talking about drinking, parting, and even sex, I have pics she posted with 4 of her 7 OM. Oh well how much time would my lawyer have to present all the evedence anyway. On a small plus side om7 changed his profile picture to a couples pic with my STBEX. Use the info god provides.
I agree facebook is evil,
So you are blaming a communication method for your spouse's actions?
So there were fewer affairs before cell phones, and fewer before telephones in general.
There were fewer before women entered the workplace.
There were fewer before the Post Office.
So... if we take women out of the workforce, eliminate all two-way communication technology including postal services, there will be fewer affairs.
Sounds like Utopia, eh?
Or... we could stop blaming the increased opportunity to have an affair for people actually having them.
It's not Facebook's fault your wife had poor personal boundaries or decided to have an affair.
Stay away from FB, 40. It does you no good and will only make you feel worse from finding out info about your stbx.
I blame VH-1 and MTV for the degradation of society...oh and Washington D.C.!!!
So you are blaming a communication method for your spouse's actions?
nope I put the blame on the stbex. A cheater will find ways to cheat, facebook just makes it easy. I have had a facebook account for 2 years and have never used it to hook up.
Stay away from FB, 40. It does you no good and will only make you feel worse from finding out info about your stbx.
My lawyer thinks the facebook info is relevant to my case. At one point and time I had a friend snoop for me and print off what he though was relevant. The problem is I know my stbex better than anyone so I have dug up much more than my friend did this is my life and I am trying to get my kids into a better sich. So as long as she continues to post things about her wild life I will snoop.
Journaling
I read on a thread today someone was wondering about the WAW anger, someone said that anger is better than indifferent. Not sure about this. I have read every where that any feeling equals some attachment. My WAW is very angry but I do not think she has any attachment left for me. I for the most part feel nothing for her I am truly through with her, I wish it had a different ending but I only had ½ of a vote. I do not want her back but sometimes I wonder why she is so angry and why she uses the kids against me some things I guess I will never understand.
Someone else said they do not believe in checking on a WAW when there is separation, I do not agree with this at all. My kids still live in that house, and they should have the right to live there without bf hanging around so I have no problem documenting when I find him there. Divorce is war .
I could've wrote this.....and I back you 100%
I wanted to add, my wife is indifferent towards me, and there is no feeling of attachment left at all.....none. Anger is probably a little better.
Anger is good because it gives you something to talk about because she acts crazy when she is angry :-)
I went back and read my first post last night and its kind of amazing how much my feelings have changed in that time. Looking back I am so thankful that I never was melty begging man I can look back at B-day and the 2 weeks I remained in my house with pride, being a melty man would not have changed one thing. When I came here I was 3 1/2 months deep in a divorce I knew it was over but still clinged to hope that one day we could reconcile. OM # 2 - 7 changed my outlook pretty quick. Its funny when I got here she had ended the A with OM#1 and it looked like she was calming down, boy was I wrong she was just taking a breather.
One thing is for sure once a cheater always a cheater. OM#7 is posting his love pictures all over facebook they all hugging and happy and posed like an engagement picture, D-10 told me last night that OM#2 was back hanging around the house last night.
I worry that if she gets custody she will move my kids to the Dallas area where OM#7 lives. The reality of this is very small for several reasons number one being STBEX works for her parents and makes 3 times as much money as she could anywhere else, OM#7 will be dumped pretty soon if she follows her recent track record. I know the chances of her moving are not logical but it still worries me.
Hey 40,
I know in my mediation meeting We put something in there about moving away. If either party moved out of a specified area the custody issue needed to be re-opened.
NOt sure if that helps but just a thought.
gr8
Yes I think in our county if she tries to move out of the county we can take her to court which I will. Hopefully this is a mute point because I win managing custody.
I was hoping to make it a full week without sending a complaint to the lawyer but no such luck.
The wicked witch of West Texas called me today and told me that she was leaving town to go to a high school football game and that I would have to pick the kids up at her moms house at 6:00.
I thought about this for a while and decided that I would go pick my kids up from school since it's Friday and salesmen don't really do too much on Friday afternoons any way so I called my motheronlaw and told her not to worry about getting my kids that I would get them. All heck broke loose my motheronlaw ended up telling me that I could not get my kids I told her she was welcome to go to my kids school and watch me. She ended up hanging up on me.
A few minutes later the wicked witch called raising cane and told me now that her and her mom had plans and that she was picking them up and they were going some where and she would have them at home by six.
She then started telling me what wonderful grandparents her parents were and our children are lucky to have them. Then it turned ugly because I said that I didn't think a grandmother that would keep the kids while her daughter was out committing adultery was a very wonderful person and that her whole family was morally bankrupt. She told me to f off and I told her about the same.
At six I went to my house and just as I expected the wicked witch was nowhere to be found her mom was sitting in front of my house with the kids.
The extent that the wicked witch and now her mom go to to keep me from seeing my kids an extra 2 hours and 45 minutes is just unbelievable. My wifes sister had the nerve to tell me I didn't get my kids until 6 what's the big deal. The big deal is those are my kids and if my wife is not there to pick them up my motheronlaw dam sure don't have the right to tell me I can't pick up my kids under no ones law does grand parents have more rights than parents. Plus I freaking hate being lied to. Every thing I have read and all the research I have done says that you will not win child custody on one big thing that normally it takes a bunch of smaller infractions that form a pattern that sway judges. Boy she is doing that.
Does her family know that she is an adulteress? Have you exposed her?
Yes I exposed her. And on the 14th of October my stbex, her mom, and bf#7 and my kids all went to corpus Christi to a wedding. My mother inlaw wached the kids the first night so the stbex could have a movie date. The next night the old hag watched the kids while the stbex and bf#7 went to a bar. My stbex whole family is morally bankrupt.
what is your current legal child custody situation?
no bs,
what has been decided so far legally?
Joint with stbex having the real power for now.
Joint with stbex having the real power for now.
Real power?
If it really is joint custody as you say,
was friday her day with the kids?
What's the actual custody schedule like?
How is it that you got to have the kids friday evening?
Right now we are on every other weekend plus mid week overnights. We are still running on the tempoary orders. This weekend is my weekend. When the stbex called me at 12:00 and said she was leaving town then the right to get kids automatically goes to me. To keep me from getting the kids she called me and told me she was driving back to town to pick up the kids. She didn't she lied. She had no thoughts of heading back to town
is exchanging the children through a 3rd party (ie. your in-laws) part of the deal legally?
Do you believe she planned to keep you away from the kids for 2.5 hours on purpose? Just to make you angry?
Seems to me like there is too much room for change in this schedule you have, it is way to flexible and probably not in a good way, not for you at any rate.
The schedule should days and times outlined clearly,
it should mention who picks up the kids on certain days, if someone drops them off, what time this happens and to account for variations and lost time. It should also account for issues like what you experienced today, you shouldn't need to deal with the BS of a 3rd party (ie. kids grandparents, her parents/your in-laws), the kid exchange doesn't need to involve any exchange of words or pleasantries, it's just a waste of your time and the kids tend to experience more discomfort when they hear these words more than the parties involved.
Speak to your lawyer, get him involved if necessary, let your wife know that you're going to make an amendment to the existing custody schedule because you're tired of this bull$hit and also that you're documenting what happened today because it isn't the first time and if you don't do anything, she'll continue to do this over and over again. If she wasn't planning on "driving back to town", you should have picked up your kids directly from school and you shouldn't have had any interaction with your in-laws or your sister in law.
Stop worrying about her parents and her sister being "morally bankrupt", I'm sure your wife has told them a million things about you that justifies her actions right now. You were a prick, you were abusive, you were this and that and the other thing, it doesn't matter if any of it is true, perception is king in these matters, it's how people see you and she has painted a picture of you which isn't flattering, you are the bad guy even if she's the one humping the entire football team.
As for you, you need to start dating other women and you need to get your wife off your mind. If you had done this, you wouldn't worry about how many men your wife has been with, if she has really been through several men, smile and be happy. You have found out this is the kind of woman she is and she is clearly a waste of your time and she is clearly a waste of several other men's time as well because she seems to be the common denominator in all of this, including you, that's 5 men so far, quite a few men to go through in such a short period of time.
I really can't start dating right now we are in the middle of a custody battle and I have to be the better person. Knowing the judge we have he is very intolerant of people messing around. I am happy my wife is messing around with mupital men it just makes my custody case that much better. I could care less what she does I am through with her. This is all about the kids and getting custody.
Monda
Monday my plan is to go to the lawyer and get the stbex back in court to modify the temporary orders so I will pick them up at school on fridays then return them to school the following Monday and have a first refusal clause in the agreement. It should take 2 weeks to get into court and will probably cost another thousand dollars to get a hearing set up. With the court we are in and the judge we have and my stbex taking my kids around all the men she is dating I have been told she has dug herself a very deep hole. My lawyer said we got her
24 hours removed from the wife and mother inlaw lying now not sure if it's a big enough deal to try to get her back in court or not. Just don't know
Do it. Get the right of first refusal inserted into the clause. Get times/places for exchange documented.
I really feel bad for you 40. This is craziness. At leas my STBXW and I are still on good enough terms that we are very flexible about kids exchanges and the timing depending upon what events are taking place. A couple hours here or there isn't a big deal for us, but you definitely shouldn't have to put up with this kind of shlt.
Just get it dont and then keep documenting all of the infractions. You will get the custody you seek.
Hang in there man. Do you have any idea when this will be final? Do you have a final court date yet? What a nightmare.
You should definately go to court on this. Think of it as fighting for the only good thing out of this marriage...your children. Do it for them. Dont roll over and make things easy for her. She needs to feel the consequences of her behavior.
Robx is right about the inlaws, no matter how moral they are they always want to keep thier daughter in thier lives.
Man, I'd be out for blood if I was in your place. You're a btter man than me.
No I have no ideal when we are going back to court. We were one day away from it when we were granted a continunce for the child appointed advocate to get involved in our case. My lawyer keeps telling me to hang in there it takes time then last time he spoke to me he said "we got her". In the past he has told me in the 35 years he's been doing this he has not seen very many women who file first act like mine he said that's normally the way the spouse who was surprised acts.
In a short rundown in 5 months she has dated and introduced 7 men to my kids of the 7 I have found one that has a felony conviction and a dwi, she let him baby set my 3 boys one night. Then 2 of the om have been arrested for dwi # 3 and 7. I have pictures of 4 of the 7 parked at my house overnight and also when my kids were there. She has taking my kids out of town on 2 occasions and I have dozens of pics from facebook with her drinking. My lawyer has told me that this should be one of the easiest fathers custody he has ever taken to court.
Without talking to him I can tell you what he will say about taking her back to court. Don't do it be patient and let the child advocate do her job document document document. I've been down this road before.
I can push him to do it but he will advise against it.
Listen to your attorney, but if this BS happens again with your W, go pick-up the kids yourself if you have the time.
Best of luck to you.
I want to thank everyone who ever stopped by and gave support, I appreciate it. I have decided to go where the vets went.
I feel so bad for you and the waiting is just tearing you and your kids apart.
Also, I am so glad you ignore the advice to not look at facebook. Oh, yeah riiight....ignore evidence that could help you in this battle.
I will never understand the so-called "no snooping" uh...."rule." WTF?? Yeah, it hurts, but so does everything else when you're dealing with a degenerate WAS.
I bet there are millions of LBS who would have fared a lot better if they had "snooped" more instead of being caught flat-footed without valuable evidence.