It is unbelievable that the WAW Syndrome is as massive as it is. When my W dropped the bomb on me back in the middle of April, I never saw it coming either. The world just collapsed on me. I did all the wrong things as most of LBS. Since W refused to go to IC, I finally decided to go by myself.
My counselor immediately asked me to read DR and told me that when I'm done reading I’ll realize that my WAW is a textbook case. I’ve read the book and already implementing some techniques. I found this site and have read, read and read some more of similar cases. I just cannot believe this epidemic.
Synopsis of my case.
We have been together for 13 years. Although not married we both have considered our relationship as a marriage. We have no kids, but 4 dogs and a cat which to both of us ARE our kids. So for all intensive purposes I can use all of the terminology on this site.
Sometime in the beginning of the year W started to act strangely, withdraw, agitated and just not the same any more. She started coming home a little late invisibly drunk sometimes. My inquiries to her whereabouts were not appreciated. She works in sales which is a complete male dominated world so I am sued to her entertaining her male clients all the time. But this time it smelled.
We just got done being sued. While the law suit was frivolous and ultimately dismissed it left the mark on both of us. The accuser tried to do everything in his power to destroy our careers and our relationship. We stood by each other and never gave up. That put tremendous stress on both of us particularly on her. Once the case was over, it was a great sigh of relief. But instead of returning to normal she started acting strange. That was in January.
By April her constant lies and deception had become unbearable to me to live with. I simply did not understand why she was lying so much for no real reason. (We are in the same industry and know every player in business – lying about who you are with or where is impossible).
So one night in the middle of April after she got home late and drunk and lied again I called it out. She went ballistic and told me ILYBNILWY, in fact with these exact words. She added that she has not loved me for last 10 years, that I am holding her hostage and now it’s time for me to move out.
(At this time I’d like to point out that there was not and is not EA/PA or OM.)
Next I made all of the mistakes and nono’s that the book outlines – yes I did them all. When nothing worked I decided to do nothing but that did not work either. She got more aggressive and started to stay out late all the time neglecting our “kids”, coming home trashed and picking fights about me leaving. This went on for months.
In July I decided to take a vacation and leave for a week hoping that the time off would help to calm her down. That did not work. She used the time to reach out to my best friends lie about me and tried to turn them against me or at least sympathetic towards her. The irony of that is of course that my friends simply did not believe her. Once she realized that she asked them not to tell me – they did it anyway.
There are so much more to tell but I leave it to discussion if anyone asks or if it becomes relative to the conversation.
My next session with IC is later this week but I have already started to implement some techniques. I decided that my case requires LRT as well as 180. Amazingly it has changed things a lot with less than a week.
She has stopped nagging on me leaving since I told her during her most recent outburst that it is not on my priority list, because I need to take care of myself. I said that I have been seeing a therapist, read books and sought help because I need to once again become the confident, witty, fun man that she fell in love with and that I need to do that for myself and not for her or anyone else. I said that we can talk about who should move out and the timeframe when I’m ready.
There was deafening silence in the room. She looked down like she was ashamed and said, I understand.
I started going out unexpectedly and returning unexpectedly. I cut off all communications with her. If she called my cell, I did not pick up. Waited for 20 minutes and called back asking “what’s up”. Within this short week she stopped staying out drinking, respectfully texting me if she was late and the only place she’s been hanging out has been her mom’s house.
All of a sudden when at home she has started telling me about her day and where she has been. I smile and listen. I have made a point of turning down TV volume and looking in her eyes when she has something to say. My responses have been lukewarm and short but I am doing it with a smile.
There are absolutely no urgency that I feel to jump on any conclusions. I know I have a long and rocky road ahead. She is extremely complicated person and not the average women. There are also a lot of other issues that I have not yet mentioned but a start is nevertheless a start.
The only thing I’m wondering about right now is how do I figure out that the response from her is genuine happiness that I may be finally leaving her or happiness that I have acknowledged the relationship in crisis and trying to better myself. Only time will tell.
Like all wise people here have said “You will never know if you don’t try everything. At the end you will be better off anyway.”
So ask away and I will update on my progress. Only a week ago I was in pain, lost and devastated. I am beginning to feel better although I know there will be bipolar episodes ahead.
Pookie
I suffered a major setback. Months ago I made a huge mistake and reached out to W's family. In most part I received a cold shoulder and I never tried anything again. W's mother kept is quiet and caused no stir. However W's aunt managed to do something last night to cause a complete chaos.
W went to have dinner at her aunt's house. When she came home the whole hell broke loose. She was kicking and screaming, calling me names accusing me of lying to her family. I just sat frozen in horror as this insanity was unfolding. She threatened me with layers and declared all out war. She even started taking pictures of the house claiming that I would start destroying it in order to sabotage a potential sale.
I have never seen her that insane. I have no idea what to do now.
It was only days ago when we conversed amicably and she agreed that I needed my space too to deal with my own issues. I thought I was in the right tracks.
What do you think her aunt said to her to drive her to act that way?
First off dont reach out to family unless you are trying to bust an EA or PA. When you reach out to family it pushes the WAS further away almost pursueing. If she is in theis "state of mind" she is the one that needs to snap out of it, no one not even family can change her, only her.
As far as the blow up, stop talking to her family and go even darker on her, my 2 cents.
I think a little robx is needed here. Don't tolerate that abuse. You need to stand up to her and make it clear that you will not be her punching bag, physically or emotionally. If she can't discuss things rationally with you, refuse to be in the room with her.
Talking to your W's family may have been a tactical DBing error, but it wasn't some horrible offense. You are trying to save your M, and wanted their advice and support. Hardly a capital crime. Your W's reaction is due to her overwhelming guilt.
I have no idea what her aunt said. All I ever did was to express my concern for her health. She has not been physically well and she has been seeing her doctor multiple times. She has not told me what's going on with her and I was simply concerned.
As far as talking to the family, you are right, I should have never done that. It is well explained in DR why that is not a good idea. I haven't done it since.
After her outburst last night she did come back downstairs and sat next to me on the couch. I barely heard her whisper "What is it that you want?".
I could not take that question after what just happened and pretended that I did not hear it and took the dogs for a walk. When I returned she had gone to bed.
So one night in the middle of April after she got home late and drunk and lied again I called it out. She went ballistic and told me ILYBNILWY, in fact with these exact words. She added that she has not loved me for last 10 years, that I am holding her hostage and now it’s time for me to move out.
(At this time I’d like to point out that there was not and is not EA/PA or OM.)
Did you confirm this?
Just from my sitch, my W started to go out more and more and the mere fact of she was getting attention from OM made her feel M wasn't worth working on anymore.
As puppy would say- do your intel work so you know what you're up against.
What are some of her health issues?
My intel is solid. There is no OM. I did a lot of careful investigation. I am positive about that.
She has been doing a lot of self diagnosing on the internet from brain tumors to MS. She has a lot of symptoms that make me scared to death. She has only told me that her doctor thinks she's got anxiety, but her internet search history shows that she is not buying it and is trying to look for other potential problems.
While ago I though she was by-polar or had hormonal problems. Now it seems that there is something else going on.
She has only told me that her doctor thinks she's got anxiety
Pookie,
I know about the anxiety, I had it pretty much since the time I proposed to W.
It did take a toll on my health. I have since controlled it by healthy eating and exercise.
I drank a lot...a lot of coffee back then.I also drank beer frequantly at night to sooth my nerves. Now I'm into herbal teas and decaf coffee.
Started yoga class for the mind and body.
I feel great now and I don't worry about things I can't control.
What do you think your W worries about?
Finances, Kids , house??
I don't really know what she is worring about in particular. Like I said before, the lawsuit that lasted from last October to this past January took a toll on her. Her job has also been stressful. There was some restructuring and she did not get her way. (She's a bit of a narcissist)
She has been heavily drinking and not eating for past 4 months until it calmed down a bit just a week ago.
She may also be anxious about the separation. I don't think she truly knows yet what that means. She claims that she wants me out of her life but then the next day she wants to talk about her day and things at work.
I am trying very hard on the 180 but I don't think I want to move out.
gr8,
Could you tell me your symptoms when you had anxiety attacks?
Are you sure on the OM? Almost 100% of the cases you see here with WAS started because of OP.
There are the rare exceptions, what is your intel?
Well, I am 99% sure that there is no OM. I have used pretty much all the means that PI's use incuding GPS tracking. All has come clear and I stopped.
Sometimes there isn't an OM. And you can easily make yourself crazy looking for the slightest clue - trust me, I did that twice in the last two weeks.
As I remember I know I also add a lot of stress.
Some of my symtoms were chest pains, heart racing at different beats. I also had the feeling of passing out at times.
These were my symptoms when I first propsoed to W. I think the change of life, buying a home and the thought of having kids all played into the mix early on.
Has time went on, I found myself not sleeping well at nights. I would go to bed but then wake up at 12 or 1am wide awake.
I would then go down on the couch and watch tv.
This all effected the M.
I did go to the doctors early on about the chest pains and they said it was stress due to the changes in me life.
Ever since talking to a DB coach and IC, I have learned to control my stress through exercise and diet.
I am in better shape now at 39 the I was at 29.
Pookie, read my first post on "Should I tell her to move on?"
it's a few posts down.
gr8,
I read your posts. It is great that you have acknowledged your problem and working on it. In the case of my W, she is doing nothing about it and blaming me for the cause. I was very close to have an opportunity to suggest that she should go and seek counseling also. I told her that I was seeing a professional to get to be the guy again with whom she fell in love 13 years ago. But I added that I am doing it for myself and myself only.
That conversation was in response to her inquiry about the future of the house. We were out having a nice dinner which we haven’t done for weeks. I promised to tell her when I am ready to discuss such monumental issue. She smiled and said that she understands. That was Friday. Now it’s Tuesday and she completely went ballistic on me last night.
I still think that manic depression cannot be out ruled. These extreme mood swings are not normal.
Pookie,
Thanks, I am a work in progress.
That was Friday. Now it’s Tuesday and she completely went ballistic on me last night.
I still think that manic depression cannot be out ruled. These extreme mood swings are not normal.
Let me ask you this,
when your wife goes ballistic on you, is it after she has been drinking?
The reason I ask is b/c my neighbors were going through problems too. His W would always "attack" him after she has been drinking.
Since she was texted by co workers and going to happy hour 2-3 times a week he suspected womething was going on.
Long story short, he started doing things for himself and told her if she doesn't want to stay here then leave. He even packed her bag for her.
I now notice her home right after work and they seem to BE GETTING ALONG SO MUCH BETTER.
I think once he showed her that he'll be fine with or with out her that she decided to stay.
Oh, absolutely after drinking. Everything irrational has always been alcohol induced.
Like the book says, don't believe anything you hear and only 50% of what you see.
However this unstable mental state prohibits any kind of healing to take place. I would love to not be home when she arrives. It's difficult becuse of our dogs. One of them needs medication on regular basis.
Last weekend I was able to dissappear and reappear. It confused her greatly. I was watching the results of 180 right in front of me. She was asking all kinds of questions and I only gave short vague answers. I saw baby step progress but now after the explosion I don't know where to pick up from.
Oh, absolutely after drinking. Everything irrational has always been alcohol induced.
You need to set a boundary here.
The next time she she starts after drinking say,
W, it's obvious you have been drinking and I will not discuss the future of our home when you are in this state of mind.
Looks like you have seen some positive results with your DBing.
Keep them up. I now it feels unnatural but you can't argue with results.
In fact to take it further you could say,
W, I will not have any discussions with you about anything after you have been drinking. I will not accept being treated badly b/c of your drinking.
That's exactly what I was trying to say last night, but she was just on a rampage. What I should have done was to get up and leave but it was late and I was tired.
I just need some more time to DB. I just started last week and already saw changes. It's way to soon to analyze the changes so I need to keep doing what works.
I cannot afford to start fighting who stays, who leaves, what happens to the house or who gets the pets.
My IC who recommended the book thinks there is hope and if I could only be able to pull her into the session he can "fix" us.
However I don't think there a chance in that right now.
As I mentioned before after the tirade she came back and asked quietly "What do you want?"
I think this question may come up again. Of course she needs to be sober or I won't answer.
But I actually don't know what to day. This question sounds like "What does it take to get you out of my life?"
Thoughts?
As I mentioned before after the tirade she came back and asked quietly "What do you want?"
So what do you want?
That's simple.
I want to save the M. But not fall back to old R. I want a brand new R where both of us come in clean.
I can't possibly say that....
You see it's a trick question. It depends what you see in it.
I also want her to get well and be happy again. That requires full detachment and that's where it gets complicated.
I want to save the M. But not fall back to old R. I want a brand new R where both of us come in clean.
Right. That's why you're here. I understand.
I also want her to get well and be happy again..
Her happiness come from herself. Only she will be able to make that decision to make change.
That requires full detachment and that's where it gets complicated
Sounds like you know have to respond to her crap behavior(CB).
Not tolerating it is a wake up call for her. She is use to you responding a certain way when she acts out.
Now that you changed your response she has to start to make a change in herself.
Detach in a loving way and you will have great results.
Coach is the one to seek out here on detaching.
So what do I actually say when this question comes up again?
I don't think that right now she wants to hear any of these answers.
I think my honest response would be:
I want you to respect my space as I have respected yours for last 4 months. I have enabled you to come and go, stay wherever as long as you wanted to. I have taken care of the house and our animals so you could have the space you've enjoyed. Now I want mine. Please stop pestering me about the life changing monumental decision that is not as easy to make as you might think. I need my space, my therapy and my life to become the man I used to be. I need my dignity and confidence without which I cannot make decisions I need to make.
What were some of your "faults" leading to the break down.
Try to focus on them. Make changes not b/c she would notice but changes you want to do to make yourself a better person or a better partner.
B/c your still living together the changes you make will be noticed much better than if you were separated.
IMO, if she askes the question again, tell her the truth.
You would like to work on the R but need to work on yourself first.
I think you should first address any issue you brought to the R.
Here's something that helped me when I first arrived here:
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
Also, read this: detachment link
Thanks gr8
Believe me, I have my DR book tabbed and highlighted. As I said in my first post, I had made a lot of nono’s after the bomb dropped. However my limited wisdom did tell me to back off and let her do her thing. That’s when she started enjoying her freedom. Unfortunately I lost all that time sitting on my hands at home instead of working on myself and implementing some other techniques.
So, now to my faults.
I may see them totally differently than my W because we never communicated any of our problems until things got heated.
We met when I just finished divorcing my previous M. There was infidelity committed by my ex W. I was scarred and very insecure and paranoid because of that. I became too obsessive in my new relationship. That in turn made W turn out little white lies. That was easier than dealing with the truth and consequences.
I was also a bit lazy doing the household chores.
I was also a perfectionist that drove W nuts at times. I would not let her things that I knew I was better at. Not even booking a vacation. She called me all around controlling.
So here comes the sad part.
About 6 years ago she had enough and wanted to end the R. She finally told me truly what had been bugging her and I promised to change. She said that people never change and refused to work on the R. My limited wisdom told me that I need to let her go and agreed to give up my half of the house. So I sold it to her for $1. In turn she promised to pay me back my down payment of $20,000
The day I signed the papers was the best day of my life. She took me out to dinner and asked me to STAY. We had not spoken for weeks. The new beginning encouraged me to change. I changed everything except maybe the total spontaneous stuff. I don’t live by a schedule but need a little advance notice on certain things and events.
I became a chef, a cleaner, dog care taker while she was lounging on the couch. She never even went to the supermarket any more just gave me lists. I am not saying that she did not do her share but I had to do my half of her stuff and a full of my own.
She became more and more controlling of everything to the point that I just went along like a limp sausage. As her career took her to the higher clouds she grew her ego to unhealthy size and became narcissistic at times.
I often wonder whether the drastic role change made me boring to her, but I lost control so quickly and rapidly that I really could not figure out how to bring myself back.
So faults today are different than in the past. I fixed myself to her liking and now I don’t like myself.
Today is a very similar situation that I was in 6 years ago, but yet different. I have no control over the house and she has nothing to complain about. She has stated many times that I am close to perfect when it comes of being a “husband” but yet she does not see me as someone to be in love with.
Is there a paradox here? Did she create herself a man that is not what she wanted?
You see, I have a lot of work to do on myself. She fell in love with a different person with a few flaws. I can become that man again without the flaws. I guess I lost more personality that was needed.
I became a chef, a cleaner, dog care taker while she was lounging on the couch. She never even went to the supermarket any more just gave me lists. I am not saying that she did not do her share but I had to do my half of her stuff and a full of my own.
She became more and more controlling of everything to the point that I just went along like a limp sausage. As her career took her to the higher clouds she grew her ego to unhealthy size and became narcissistic at times.
I often wonder whether the drastic role change made me boring to her, but I lost control so quickly and rapidly that I really could not figure out how to bring myself back.
Boredom is not healthy in a marriage. I think you see where to start some of your 180s.
Thank Coach. That's what I will be focusing on. I'm sitting in a cafe right now getting ready to go home and be strong and resolute. Since I don't consider myself a weak person (weak only for W) it is not too hard for me to gain back the confidence.
I need more time to DB. So I need to be a little careful.
Tonight will be interesting. Thursday I have another session with IC.
Pookie,
It's hard, but try to think about how you were when you first met. Full of ambition? In great shape? Paid a lot of attention to her? What?
When you first start dating, you become incredibly efficient at determining what's working to attract the opposite sex. Conversely, when things fall apart, you become totally lost in seeing what works. And some of the changes and things you do will have only a small, incremental effect. You may not see any progress for days and weeks. So don't focus on any signs or portents. They'll drive you nuts.
Pay attention however, to what DOESN'T work, and stop that behaviour ASAP.
I was torn in minutes ago whe W texted that she's late again. It's been like that forever. She knows I will not neglect our four legged kids.
Considering what happened last night my first reaction was not to respond. I wanted her to wonder if I really got mad and may stay out myself. But then I thought that maybe that is exactly what she wants me to feel or do.
180 can be confusing. I decided to text back and be nice like nothing happened. It would have been too predictable for her to think that I was angry.
I will leave the no response for next time when she least expects that.
Besides I rather be home now with my "kids" feeling the unconditional love and go for a late dinner hoping that she would come home while I'm out.
Right now I cannot stomach to see her unless she comes home sober and shows some remorce. She is not an apologetic person. Only her actions speak for her mind.
I have no idea what she's doing right now. She could be at her mom's looking for wisdom. She could be getting drunk at her watering hole with her loser friends. She could be meeting a lawyer. She could be finding an assasin to kill me (just kidding).
Well, nothing happened. W came home late but relatively sober, much more than usual. In a good mood.
I had no reaction, it was too late anyway.
Another day...
Right now I cannot stomach to see her unless she comes home sober and shows some remorce. She is not an apologetic person. Only her actions speak for her mind.
I have no idea what she's doing right now. She could be at her mom's looking for wisdom. She could be getting drunk at her watering hole with her loser friends. She could be meeting a lawyer. She could be finding an assasin to kill me (just kidding).
Don't hold your breath for an apology. My W only said sorry to me Maybe 10 time in 14 years.
Stop thinking about what she doing,. Trust me on this, it will eat you up and drive you crazy.
Instead of waiting for her to come home why don't you go out for yourself and let her know that you will be late coming home?
Mix it up and be mysterious. Change your look, wear some new cologne dress differently.
She will start to notice.
This is the tricky part, you have to make her feel as if she's losing you.
"Settin her free" is indeed my priority right now. I don't want to move out because I was not the one calling the quits. She won't move out because she owns the house.
So I will try to distance myself while still in the house.
About 6 years ago she had enough and wanted to end the R. She finally told me truly what had been bugging her and I promised to change. She said that people never change and refused to work on the R. My limited wisdom told me that I need to let her go and agreed to give up my half of the house. So I sold it to her for $1. In turn she promised to pay me back my down payment of $20,000
Are you saying your name is not on the mortgage?
This would scare me. I don't know the laws pertaining to this but it would seem she can make you leave, right?
Is there anything in writing about her repaying the 20k?
Yes, she can throw me out if she wants to. It will not be easy because legally I could take her to court for equity that belongs to me. I don't think it will come to that but it certainly weakens my bargaining power.
The previous money was spent on repairs once we reconciled last time. So that's gone for now.
I am afraid that I will have to move just to avoid the battle. Right now I don't really want to think that far.
I could also offer her a written contract that makes me responsible for paying her mortgage if she agrees to leave.
That could have a time limit on it after which I have to buy her out.
Or she can suffer financially, emotionally and physically keeping it all to herself if I just packed up and left.
One thing that is absolute. Our pets are a pack and have to stay together and they have to stay with the house. I've seen too many times the stress that the pets suffer when relocated to new and strange environment especially with only one owner present.
It will not be easy because legally I could take her to court for equity that belongs to me.
]
If your name is not on the mortgage how do you have claim to any equity?
Let's hope it never reaches that point.
Stay focused on the GAL and 180s.
You said you have seen results thus far, that's good.
Be very careful not to talk about R too soon.
Keep doing your changes and let her bring up R talk.
If she asks you something a good response is I'll think about that"
Keep up the good work.
gr8
Thanks for your thoughts gr8,
I consulted L for my options. There are cohabitation laws that may let me claim the equity. It requires a Judge's hearing and that's where the dirty stuff may have to come out. I do not want that to happen.
I already dodged the second attempt by her to discuss the moving out business. She came out with all sorts of logical options. I told her that working on myself is my priority right now without which I cannot make such big decisions. She agreed.
That was before the drunk meltdown.
So when she comes home drunk again, I will get up and leave the house. She will pass out shortly anyway so all I have to do is to drive around the block.
Signs are beginning to emerge, but the insanity is there too. She is walking in such a thick fog or as my IC said, she is living in a lie.
I have only been truly DB'ing for a week. Baby steps, baby steps...
So when she comes home drunk again, I will get up and leave the house. She will pass out shortly anyway so all I have to do is to drive around the block.
pook, LMAO
that was funny.
That's good that you talked to a L and know where you stand.
A lot of folks here don't protect themselves.
I am having a session with my IC tomorrow morning. That is only the second one. It's been week and a half since my first one. He wanted to let the DR book to sink in and see what I have learned.
I have learned a great deal from the book and this forum.
Thanks to all that have conversed with me here.
Good.
I am surprised your IC suggested DR.
When I was going to my IC I told him about the book and MWD and he said he hadn't heard of either.
I stopped going b/c it felt as if I were running the session.
I went a few more times to talk about me anxiety though.
I will give IC a couple of tries. My IC thinks that there is remote possibility at some point to pull my W into the sessions.
I told him how she faked everything last time we did that. He smiled and said that he can cut through the BS.
Speaking of the anxiety, I maybe able to suggest my W to see him for that. She already asked who is my IC. I never told her his name. She also wondered what his expertise is, I said it's people like I. So there is a seed of interest.
Maybe I leave his business card on the counter after tomorrow and tell her that maybe she wants to see that guy for her anxiety.
I don't think it's pushy since she asked me about the IC.
Maybe I leave his business card on the counter after tomorrow and tell her that maybe she wants to see that guy for her anxiety.
I don't think it's pushy since she asked me about the IC.
I wouldn't leave it.
After your session tomorrow come home in the best of moods.
She will start to think more about going to IC for herself.
Before my mess I thought I would be the last person in the world to goto IC. I swallowed my pride and took the necessary step to improve myself.
Good advice, Thanks.
She is paranoid of anyone trying to psychoanalyze her, so you're right. She needs to do that on her own.
I told him how she faked everything last time we did that. He smiled and said that he can cut through the BS.
I'm concerned my wife will go back to the status quo (pre-Bomb day). I won't be happy with that, and I hope that any MC I go to will be able to see through her. She thinks she's a good actor...
pinhead,
That's a challenge - to find a good counselor. The one we picket years ago sucked. He gave us a questionare to fill before the initial visit. W faked all the answers and then backed it up with complete denial at the session. MC gave up after the first and only visit.
Two weeks later W asked me to stay and life went on.
Last night was another weird day.
I was late coming home and all of the sudden I get the text. W wants to meet for dinner in our favorite restaurant.
She was happy and upbeat. I listened to her work talk and suddenly she said that she was going to rent a lake house for a week later this month. I said, good for you. I acted calmly and did not show any surprise.
She said she wants to take 2 out of 4 dogs with her. I joked that the others will be jealous. She said that maybe in the middle of that week we could swap them. I don’t know what is the logistics of that (who would drive them up, etc.) but it does not matter right now.
I did ask if anyone else is going, she said that some of her family in turns.
I am actually happy for her. It shows that she is doing something about her destructive behavior and anxiety and going to rest and relax.
Who knows, maybe after a few days of tranquility she will ask me to come visit or even stay for awhile. (Swapping dogs would present that opportunity)
My IC visit went well also. Despite the Monday night’s insanity my IC thinks that there is definitely hope now considering all other signs and reactions. He thinks that maybe Monday was a wake up call for her and the whole vacation alone thing is her way to deal with her demons.
I’ll wait and see. Thinking positive.
What a bizarroworld,
Got home and she was already there. I noticed a bag of groceries on the counter. Is she really going to cook dinner? She has not done that for 4 months.
Yes, she cooked a wonderful dinner. But what was strange about it was the lack of talk. As she was all talkative at the restaurant the night before, she would not make any eye contact and gave me only one word responses to my attampts to strike a conversation. It was uncomfortable and I let it go.
I thanked her for the dinner and that pretty much concluded the evening.
It's as she is doing her own weird 180. Her cooking us dinner is a big sign on change. Lack of talking does not surprise me but I could not help thinking whether she is trying to get some reaction out of my by this strange mix of behavior.
I know I should not try to figure out what she's thinking.
Just trying to me my happy self and inch forward.
Actions are what you should be figuring out. When my wife is really confused and stressed, she cuts her speaking down a lot. And she loves to speak, so when it drops to monosyllabic words, I know she's freaking out. That's when I really have to try to listen hard, and validate what she's saying. She's screaming out for it.
I think you are right pinhead. I was thinking along the same lines. Having dinner out is not a special occasion any more. That's when she's open and talkative.
Cooking at home after 4 months of not doing it must have been stressful for her. She was probably thinking how that comes across to me. I just watched TV and waited the food to get ready. Everything with a smile and appreciation. That must have freaked her out.
Actions do speak better than words. My W has always been that way. She never apologizes for anything but her actions always speak volumes. I think she knows that too.
Just a thought for future reference. Some people like to have conversation with the people they are cooking for while they are cooking. (Though, some don't because they find it distracting and stressful.)
Today I am very confused with a lot of mixed feelings.
Saturday morning W told me all about her vacation plans. She rented a house by the lake and will go there with 2 of our 4 dogs. Different members of her family will be visiting on and off. Like I expected she asked me to come over in the middle of the week to swap the dogs around. What did surprise me was that she asked me to take a next day off and stay overnight. Oh boy…
Saturday morning I was almost going to leave by myself to enjoy the day until she suddenly decided to asked me if I wanted to hang out by the shore. It was a pleasant surprise because we have not done that for a long time. Sitting around in a outdoor restaurant was awkward. I could not figure out what to talk about. She finally brought up the house and the dog issue asking me what am I going to decide about that. I was trying to dodge the issue again, but she got agitated and said that she cannot live in this limbo. So I said that I need a month. This puts the deadline just after her vacation.
I got very upset by this topic but held together and got over it pretty quickly.
What happened next was just unbelievable. She was suddenly all happy and bubbly. She asked to relocate to one of our favorite places at the shore and we left promptly. She could not stop talking on our way. We had late lunch at the other place and really enjoyed the day. She opened up and told me everything about her mysterious health problems and what she has been doing in the past few months. It was unreal. She just wanted to catch up and fill in the entire time she was not home or talking to me about anything. I felt like the times everything was OK.
Suddenly she said that we should go home, take a nap and go out later. Wow, we have not “gone out” for a year.
Nap was good, but when we woke up at the couch it was already a little late. She apologized profusely for not feeling to go out that late. I said that I’ll take a rain check. It was the thought that really touched me anyways.
Sunday was even more unbelievable. She decided to invite 2 of my best friends over for a whole day barbeque. She did everything. She set up the deck, cooked, cleaned and served us drinks. I felt bad for not doing anything to help. I asked but she smiled and told me to enjoy myself and my friends. We had a blast. She really enjoyed the day too. I felt like I had woken from the nightmare and got my life back.
But I know it is too good to be true. What really is killing me inside is that fact that all of this niceness started after I gave her the deadline for our talk about the separation. It is so weird that the thought that I may finally leave her made her so happy that she acts like the issue is entirely gone.
I am just so confused. Is she really happy that I may be leaving? Is she really waiting for me to draft up the separation plan within a month?
Or is there still something to save? 6 years ago when I signed over the house and was about to pack my bags she asked me to stay. Maybe it’s the fact that I promised her to face the ultimate problem which we’ve never really talk about, that makes her happy. Maybe she wants to sit down and talk and not necessarily about separation. Is it possible?
I would love to tell her that I don’t want this relationship any more either. But I would like to start a new one. No strings, no expectations, no deadlines, no pressure. Just forget the past and start over. Enjoy each other just like we did this weekend. Take it easy and see where it goes.
Is it possible that she may allow this to happen?
I am so lost right now.
I saw my loving W this weekend that I did not think existed any more. And she knows she made me feel happy. Can women really be so cruel and please a man they want to get rid of like that?
Help guys.
Yes, she's happy because her goal was to get you to set a deadline.
Don't mind read. Do your 180s, GAL, take care of your health/faith/family.
When you separate, things may change. Or they may not, and you'll end up proceeding to D. You can't control those either, and "buying" another month is another way to try and control the sitch.
I know, I know.
I just don't know who should leave. Either if us is capable of handling the mortgage. If I leave, I have better chances to stay in contact. If she leaves, she will lose all the surroundings she is used to. I have already stated that the pets and the house stay together with one of us.
I have a month to decide what the plan exactly is. A lot can happen between now and then. My head is spinning out of control right now.
Wow. No wonder she has lost attraction for you if you allow her to lead you around by the nose like she did this weekend.
Sounds like SHE is the pack leader and you are just another one of the dogs....
Notice in the following quotes how often that SHE DECIDED things.. SHE decided this.. SHE decided that... SHE wanted this... SHE wanted that...
No wonder she isn't attracted to you. She is dying for a man who has some guts and a man who CAN be decisive... You are going backwards...
Saturday morning W told me all about her vacation plans.
She rented a house by the lake and will go there with 2 of our 4 dogs.
she asked me to come over in the middle of the week to swap the dogs around.
she asked me to take a next day off and stay overnight
she suddenly decided to asked me if I wanted to hang out by the shore.
She finally brought up the house and the dog issue asking me what am I going to decide about that. I was trying to dodge the issue again,
She asked to relocate to one of our favorite places at the shore and we left promptly.
Suddenly she said that we should go home, take a nap and go out later.
She apologized profusely for not feeling to go out that late.
She decided to invite 2 of my best friends over for a whole day barbeque.
I saw my loving W this weekend that I did not think existed any more.
Can women really be so cruel and please a man they want to get rid of like that?
and an undecisive man that can't even make ONE and had to tell her he would finally make a decision in a month on the only thing that looked like she wanted his feeedback on.... VERY UNATTRACTIVE TO WOMEN
I always think the unhappy person should leave. Especially if the finances are equal between the two folks. My case is a bit tougher, since my W makes 1/3 of my salary. She simply couldn't afford the house anyways.
gucci,
Great way to make your point. Smack me over the head with my own words.
Yes, I am going backwards. I was doing well for a week, especially last weekend when I did my own things.
This weekend must have proved to W that she is still in charge and that I am still clinging.
You could have not made this any cleared for me.
Thanks.
Good. Glad you understand..
Women ARE attracted to decisive men...
It should be YOU who is telling her about all of YOUR great plans...
So gucci,
What should my great plan be for the separation decision? If I leave she would get yet another of her ways.
Will the "you don't like it, you leave" put a nail to the coffin?
I understand that at this point detachment needs to happen and I am not willing to break up the house and the pets.
I’ve been thinking about my sitch all day now. The hardest part is to decide whether to leave or have her leave. Logic tells me that the unhappy one should leave. It also hurts even more to think that I would have to give up everything in my life and leave it to someone who does not deserve it.
At the same time maybe leaving behind a vacuum would not be the worst thing.
Since my decision is due within a month and it falls on a date shortly after W returns from her vacation I have been thinking about writing a letter and bringing it with me when I go swapping the dogs in the middle of her vacation week. I won’t give it to her until I leave. She needs to read it alone and in peace.
The message in the letter needs to be straight forward. That I have come to a conclusion to leave because I don’t want this R any more either. I don’t need you to go on with my life. However I would want to have you along as I move on.
Any thoughts on this approach? Or is this too early. Mind you that I have not pushed any issue for many months now.
Pookster,
It is early, and I'm not a fan of using email/letters unless absolutely necessary. It's much better, and common courtesy to discuss this in person, or at least on the phone.
I'm glad you said that pinhead.
I was just thinking the same. My W is not an emotional person and the letter will come across wimpy.
I just need to work on my speech then. Anyone have spare teleprompters?
What should my great plan be for the separation decision? If I leave she would get yet another of her ways.
Maybe.. Maybe not.... The test for her will be when you suddenly act like YOU don't want HER anymore. When THAT happens is when SHE is going to find out she may have screwed up. At that point is when you do NOT let her have her way anymore. It is at THAT point where you turn this bottoms up.....
Your self confidence doesn't allow you to see that there is nothing wrong with you NOW. Your lack of confidence is coming through to her. (If I can see the lack of confidence, imagine how SHE must see, feel and observe it???)
Will the "you don't like it, you leave" put a nail to the coffin?
I am not one of the people who will tell you to not leave. The ones who tell you that are just copying what they hear others say. The important thing isn't that you leave or you tell her to leave... THE MOST IMPORTANT thing is that ONE of you leave... The attitude should be.... "Ok I got the message.. I now get it.. YOU want me out. I agree. I don't want to live with a person who doesn't want to be with me. I don't know why I haven't seen that before. Ok. I think that I want YOU to leave. I want to stay here and I want this place. I would prefer that YOU go find a place."....
THEN... if they do NOT want to leave or will not leave..
Then YOU LEAVE.... It does NOT work for both to stay. It actually slowly erodes the chances. drip, drip, drip.. So, if she won't leave after you tell her what YOU want.. Then YOU LEAVE...
Do NOT live with a spouse who has told you they don't want you there. It does NOT work to stay. It does NOT gain you any respect EXCEPT if ONE OF YOU MOVE... It doesn't gain you anything by staying in the same house while they are having an affair or while they want you out. It ONLY makes them angry and more distant....
One of you needs to leave...
Gucci,
I hear you. My self confidence is definately lacking right now. And you're right - she sees that. My self confidence was #1 quality that she fell in love with when we first met.
I never thought that I could change so fundamentally.
I think I will be the one who needs to leave.
Another day gone by.
Got home, W was sitting on the couch looked like she was waiting for me. Ignored her and started doing some paperwork. After a couple of hours got up and told her that I need something to eat and will be going out. She asked if she can join. I said yes.
In the restaurant she started with the small talk and soon we were discussing her work related issues. She was looking for some approval and assurances for the latest challenges that she was dealing with. I listened, offered some opinion and advice.
She got happier as the time went by. At the end she was back to "normal" - talking about herself and how she is going to tackle the new challenge the next day.
Later I checked her phone to keep track of what's happening with all of her drinking buddies. They have been contacting her a lot but she keeps either ignoring them or declining their invitations to go out. She has not gone out with them for almost 2 weeks now.
Still don't know what to make of it all, but I will keep doing what works and trying to gain back my self confidence.
It is really tough today. As I left home and said goodbye to my dogs, I just could not hold it together. Had to run out quickly without W noticing my tears.
It is not even her any more that I'm sad about. I am sad for the rest of my life and family. I had some very big plans for the house this summer. Couple of new windows, new garage doors and new roof. All of it is on hold indefinitely now. The laws needs mowing...
Last night I was somewhat optimistic thinking that maybe the deadline for my decision is not necessarily for her to hear that I am moving out, but rather civil discussion what has happened to our R. But it is wishful thinking.
There will be more days like today. At least it's not raining outside.
Just bumping this up.
Have another session with IC today.
I am still in a confused state although handling it well.
W has been nice lately. I have been nice but somewhat distant. Last night she noticed that I was staring at her when she bent over to pet the dogs. Usually she would make a negative remark, but this time she turned around and simply said "you're looking at me". I said, "yes, I haven't done that for a long time - forgot how good you look". She smiled...
I don't know anymore what approach to take. 180 certainly has worked but how far and how long I need to do that.
The looming deadline of telling her about my decision is also around the corner.
I just don't know what to do anymore.
Brad Paisley song comes to mind, "I'm still a guy."
If you didn't look, I'd be worried. I think my wife is always doing stuff to show off her weight loss. Last night was tough, she was lying back on an ottoman and chair, showing off her stomach... I'm half convinced she was doing it to drive me crazy. But that's mind reading. And yes, it drove me crazy.
Yup. It's driving me crazy too. W has never really liked my compliments even when times were good. Now she did!!! What's up with that?
You complimented her and she smiled back. No more, no less.
Next time you are checking out at a store compliment the cashier, I bet they smile back. If you take time to notice people it's win-win. I takes confidence to do this and it's attractive.
That means that past compliments that did not go over well may have not been sincere enough even though I thought they were.
My IC does not believe that W is evil and manipulating with her niceness and openness while waiting for my "decision". He thought that while I should be prepared to call the "quits" I shoul figure out the way to suggest "another look at the situation".
It takes careful wording and finding a right moment. He also said that I may want to write it so she can't have a knee jerk reaction and say no and cut short the conversation.
Some here have said that I should have a face to face talk.
I have learned a lot about myself, her, our R and our pasts. I am looking at the whole situation much differently now and I know what I need to do if I get another chance.
How do I let her know that and ask for a consideration for one last look at our R?
Good days and bad days.
W went out with some clients who are from out of town. At the same time I was making arrangements to meet a friend that I have not seen for months. I texted her early enough to let her know that I was going to be late. She responded to say that she will be home at 7:30 pm.
She has never been so resolute in her answer so I believed her and proceeded with my plans. I left the house late this morning so I estimated that our 4 dogs will be fine until 7:30.
In the middle of the meeting with my friend around 7pm I got another text saying that the clients want to go for another drink and that she would like to do that. I responded saying that I was out with my friend and politely asked her to honor her promise to get home at the time she promised.
A few minutes later she called and I reluctantly picked up the phone. She was totally irrational to tell me that I should not be late since the friend that I was with never stays late and therefore I should be able to make home to tend to our dogs. I politely disagreed that I will be home when I want to be and the previous promise from her should stand.
She flew off the handle and said that if I was not living in the house she would be coming home first and this situation would not exist. I said that I WILL take care of it, "you're welcome" and hung up.
So here I am, cutting my night short, doing what I LOVE - hanging out with my four legged kids.
How do you deal with this disrespect and neglect towards the dogs that she is expressing?
In previous times she have pointed out that she paid for them and takes them to the vet when needed (her schedule is much more flexible than mine). It is like a child custody battle for us.
I know I am mad right now but I will not show any emotion when she finally comes home.
For those who not animal lovers.
My pets are my kids. I don't mean to put them in an equal level with human children for other people, but for for me they are just as important.
Me and W decided long time ago that we did not want children. We were (and are) both animal lovers and always had dogs around us. That was one of the big bonds we developed. She once jokingly told me that if a human kills my dog I could kill him/her. That was a powerful statement of the passion we both had towards the "man's best friend". I felt the same way.
I just can't believe how she has been acting completely against her own self leaving all of it in my shoulders.
I know I am very emotional right now, but I have been coming home EVERY single day for the last 4 months, while she is doing whatever she likes, to take care of my "kids".
Why are the WAW's all the same? Why do they completely lose their hearts? Everything associated with their current lives somehow becomes irrelevant to them.
I am new to these forums and certainly no expert, but in answer to your question, it's because it's all about THEIR pain.
I too, am an animal lover. In my sitch , I must "vacate" the H's home soon..I have to leave my 85 year old pet Tortoise behind. At this point, it's better for him if I do this, but it leaves another hole in my already holey heart!!! H doesn't get it and thinks I am being silly for feeling sad about yet another "loss".
Hang in there. You are doing the right things.Read DB and do the 180's for yourself only.
Thank you Susan,
I have been following your sitch and I completely understand what you are going through.
There are a lot more holes that WAS's make than just US here in this forum.
Yes, so true....
I find it all heart wrenching, but we must carry on.
The wisest on these boards keep saying "let the WAS's go".. While terribly difficult to do, it really is all we CAN do. It's the best advice ever.
Hang in there and keep doing things for yourself.
You bet it is powerful . You can have the nastiest check out person, but if we smile, they will smile. So simple and so powerful!
I have made a mistake but still don't fully understand what's going on.
We had a wonderful Saturday, had a dinner with her uncle and his wife. First time I felt that I was being invited back into her inner family circle. I understood that I just penetrated the utmost outer ring.
Sunday we went shopping for her upcoming vacation alone with 2 of the dogs and got some stakes and cables for her to use at her lake house to keep them at bay.
Went to early dinner at one of our favorite restaurants. After 3 glasses of wine she suddenly became viral. It started the same "I don't love you and I haven't loved you for last 10 years". This time I tried the answer of "I am so sorry you feel that way right now."
She proceeded to explain how long she had been waiting for me to turn "around" and understanding her. That last time she gave me another chance was with full of expectations which I failed to fulfill.
I have been thinking about this possible answer for a long time but I don't know what she ever meant especially when in that state.
I was completely at a loss. I told her that I've been seen a therapist and learning about us, our past but most importantly about myself.
She said that all I've done is too late and that if I had it done years ago there have would have been something to save today. I said that "I am sorry it did not happen then, but for a past 2 months I have been working on all of what you see wrong in our R."
She said that she did not believe me. I told her that I've spent a lot of money on a wonderful and wise IC who has opened my eyes on everything.
We left and came home. She was happy and content for about an hour. We played with our dogs and she kept putting them on my lap one after another. I always took that as a sign of "I'm sorry."
Yet, minutes later she started again about the need of separation. I told her that my official answer about the logistics is not due until she comes back from her vacation, which is 3 weeks away and that she should enjoy her vacation as much as possible.
At this point she started to scare me a bit - 3 glasses of wine for a person who has become a fully fledged alcoholic in a last 4 months, she looked wasted and wanted to go to bed at 5pm.
When she was leaving the room, she was blaming me for ALL of her health issues.
She may have MS and we don't know until her MRI is scheduled in a few weeks. I know that even after that it may not be conclusive.
I am totally at a loss right now. Her mental state is not at all rational or normal any more.
pookie,
your sitch sound all to fimiliar to my neighbors.
His W like to drink and go out to happy hours 2-3 times a week.
She always started crap after a few glasses of wine.
She left a few times and they were on the rocks just about the same time my sitch started.
I will tell you this, don't engage in ANY r talk after she has been drinking.
i'll also say this... he was an excellent DB and didn't even know it. He didn't talk to her when she drank. Told her if she doesn't want to stay with him she was free to go. He even packed her bag and said if she didn't like it here to get the eff out.
That was a total 180 for him. They are know doing so much better. I notice she comes after work to spend more time at home.
He took control, set her free and stood his ground.
It worked for him.
Don't believe all the crap your W says about the past especially after she has been drinking.
His W did the Jeckle and Hyde bit on him too.
Stand your ground.
I've been running through all of what was said last night. There were a lot of questions about why I think our R should continue. Why I don't want to leave. Why I think there I a chance. Why I did not take it seriously last time. According to W she had given me an opportunity.
I am glad I did not answer any of it last night.
This morning she called me and let me know about vet's test results for one of our dogs. She could have waited until we both got home. She could have texted. But she called. It was positive news. She wanted to share.
So now I'm thinking just to go all the way and tell her what I think. That I don't want this R any more either but that I want a new fresh R with no baggage from past. That I have learned alot lately and won't make any more mistakes. At the same time I'm ready to move out also.
I don't think I have a choice. I need to end this status quo. She may answer to me or not. She will have a whole next week to think while on a vacation.
Any thoughts?
I went home prepared to talk. Also had a letter with me in case the opportunity to talk did not present itself.
To my surprise W was already home preparing massive dinner. I was stunned by that. Knowing her so well it was definately another "I'm sorry about yesterday" act.
I could not bring myself together to talk about us or the sitch and decided not to hand over the letter either.
I was happy to see her in a good mood and catering for me. She loves to cook and since it does not happen often anymore, I was enjoying watching her enjoy herself in the kitchen.
I was trying to be helpful but not too much. Did my ususal duty of cleaning up the kitchen before and after the meal. She thanked me for every move I made which is unusual even under normal circumstances.
I am very confused about how to move forward. Is anyone still read this thread?
Hi Pookie,
Keep doing what's working for you. GAL, detach, and be her catnip. You did well not to talk about your R with her.
I could not bring myself together to talk about us or the sitch and decided not to hand over the letter either
.
that was a good move.
I've been running through all of what was said last night. There were a lot of questions about why I think our R should continue. Why I don't want to leave. Why I think there I a chance. Why I did not take it seriously last time. According to W she had given me an opportunity.
You really should not be talking about the R.
She seems to be in a wishy washy state of mind right now and will keep flipping back and for until you make a stand.
I'm only saying this b/c it is so much like my neighbors sitch.
It was until he started making decisions for him that the changed her mind.
Again he packed her bag, he told her to get the eff out if she doesn't like it at home.
He made a stand stating, I'm not going to be treated this way anymore.
Now you can dwell on her kind acts and take them for her being ok with the M or you can make a stand show her that you are strong and if she wants to leave, then show her the door.
She will continue to sawy back on forth until you take action.
Don't talk about her trip. When she leaves just say have fun. Thant's it. Do tell her would you will be doing or even call her the whole time.
my 2cents.
I know I have to take baby steps in here. I know her so well. She is trying to reach out to me because she does no longer understand my state of mind. That's why she is confused.
In the past when emotional outbursts like the recent one happened, I reacted to them. I would not speak for days. I got angry and tried to defend myself or question her motives. I clanged onto her words and repeated them back to her questioning the validity of her statements.
Now I only said "I'm sorry for how you feel." When it was over, it was over. No reaction, no anger - like it never even happened.
It is amazing how that works.
On the other hand I still have a deadline to tell her what I think of all this. I can't put that off.
She wanted me to bring up the 2 dogs for a swap in the middle of the week while she's vacationing and asked me to stay overnight. I was planning on taking the next day off.
I am torn about that. Part of me really wants to do that. It would be 4 days into her peaceful and tranquil vacation and I am very curious to see how she's doing at that point. Maybe she would initiate some talk since we are away from our routines. We have always had the best time when vacationing.
But I have to be very careful with my reaction/response and I know that.
At the same time everything seems so far away. Every day is different and unpredictable. What seems right today will be wrong tomorrow and vice versa. It's a rollercoaster.
My sitch is beginning to take a toll on me. Yesterday when I wrote the letter and prepared myself to talk if necessary I was happy and optimistic. The evening turned out to be great and I should still be optimistic.
Today however, I have overwhelming sadness. Strangely I am sad for my W. I feel her misery and pain. There is nothing more I want to do right now than give her a hug and tell her that everything is going to be alright.
Why am I feeling sad for her? She is the one who is causing the pain, yet I feel so bad for her. Am I really that close to accept the fact that she could be happy without me? I know that is not true. She will not be happier, I am positive about that.
She is trying to reach out to me because she does no longer understand my state of mind. That's why she is confused.
This is mind reading and is very dangerous.
In the past when emotional outbursts like the recent one happened, I reacted to them. I would not speak for days. I got angry and tried to defend myself or question her motives. I clanged onto her words and repeated them back to her questioning the validity of her statements.
Now I only said "I'm sorry for how you feel." When it was over, it was over. No reaction, no anger - like it never even happened.
It is amazing how that works.
Coach has some good thoughts about that.
Asking:
open-ended question to talk work best.
How can I support you with ....
Make her feel you want to understand her.
I don't think you should stay overnight.
IMO
We have always had the best time when vacationing
.
not going gives her a chance to miss those fun times.
Today however, I have overwhelming sadness. Strangely I am sad for my W. I feel her misery and pain. There is nothing more I want to do right now than give her a hug and tell her that everything is going to be alright.
Why am I feeling sad for her? She is the one who is causing the pain, yet I feel so bad for her. Am I really that close to accept the fact that she could be happy without me? I know that is not true. She will not be happier, I am positive about that.
You are feeling sad because you have started to have empathy for her. You're starting to realize what she is feeling, regardless of what she has done to cause any amount of pain. You're starting to understand that the pain she caused was only done to reflect the amount of pain she felt inside.
You love your W. That's why you're sad - you can't imagine that the person you love most in this world could feel so hurt and pained. It eats you up. You said yourself all you want to do is give her a hug and tell her that everything will be OK. And, you can't do that right now - so instead you just sit there and feel sorry for her and empathize with her pain.
It's natural to feel this way. Just take a step back for a second and understand WHY you feel this way. You're not sad because YOU are sad, you're sad because SHE is sad. There is a huge difference.
I know mind reading is dangerous. When I stopped doing it, things became much simpler. Sometimes it just hard not to wonder, especially when her behavior makes no rational sense.
It is the old reaction - what did I do to cause such behavior, good or bad.
I hear the advice here that I was given not to stay overnight when I go to swap the dogs at her vacation place.
It is about 2.5 hours away and I can certainly time it so that I can leave without staying or just simply leave whenever.
What I am extremely curious about is to see her state of mind after being alone for 4 days in a isolated lake house. I need to prepare myself for the possibility that she wants to talk about our R.
I know her enough to expect that. Even with the drunk outbursts which I obviously dislike, I can read between the lines when she talks. She is very isolated person when it comes to her feelings. The latest outburst sounded totally different than any of the earlier ones. Even though it started the same way it provided clues that some of my 180 techniques may have worked.
She is waiting for my response and she does not know what I would tell her. It is bothering her and I don't think I am mind reading here.
I have distanced myself for over 4 months, but doing the DB only as long as my thread has existed here.
I have to make decision soon and I have to set boundaries for possible outcome. Her vacation alone may provide me with the opportunity to finalize my response which is due shortly after.
What should I look out for and how should I make my point without damaging what I have accomplished?
What I am extremely curious about is to see her state of mind after being alone for 4 days in a isolated lake house. I need to prepare myself for the possibility that she wants to talk about our R.
you are getting way , way too ahead of yourself with this thinking.
I know her enough to expect that. Even with the drunk outbursts which I obviously dislike, I can read between the lines when she talks.
Did you ever think of W would leave you or want a D?
I say this b/c my W and I even talked about how important it was to stay together and to raise our kids together years ago.
People change, dont be naive.
I have to make decision soon and I have to set boundaries for possible outcome. Her vacation alone may provide me with the opportunity to finalize my response which is due shortly after
.
This here shows you are still reacting to her actions.
Decide what you want and what's best for you.
Posted on 8/9
Gucci,
I hear you. My self confidence is definately lacking right now. And you're right - she sees that. My self confidence was #1 quality that she fell in love with when we first met.
I never thought that I could change so fundamentally.
I think I will be the one who needs to leave.
you are getting way , way too ahead of yourself with this thinking.
What if she does bring it up. I don't want to get caught off guard. I am not going to suggest yet that we should start working on R. But maybe I would suggest that she went to see IC to sort out her issues by herself. She knows that I've been seeing IC. She even tried to get his name which I did not give up.
Did you ever think of W would leave you or want a D?
I know that's mind reading, but there have been suddle differences in what she says and how she says it. "When are you going to leave?" has been replaced with "What do you want to do?", "I don't love you." has been replaced with "I was able to love you again last time, but you did not recognize that.", "I have not loved you for 10 years." has been replaced with "I gave us a new start 7 years ago and you blew it."
This here shows you are still reacting to her actions.
Decide what you want and what's best for you.
What's best for me is to stay in the house fix things that I planned on fixing this summer and take care of my dog pack.
you are getting way , way too ahead of yourself with this thinking.
What if she does bring it up. I don't want to get caught off guard. I am not going to suggest yet that we should start working on R. But maybe I would suggest that she went to see IC to sort out her issues by herself. She knows that I've been seeing IC. She even tried to get his name which I did not give up.
Did you ever think of W would leave you or want a D?
I know that's mind reading, but there have been suddle differences in what she says and how she says it. "When are you going to leave?" has been replaced with "What do you want to do?", "I don't love you." has been replaced with "I was able to love you again last time, but you did not recognize that.", "I have not loved you for 10 years." has been replaced with "I gave us a new start 7 years ago and you blew it."
This here shows you are still reacting to her actions.
Decide what you want and what's best for you.
What's best for me is to stay in the house fix things that I planned on fixing this summer and take care of my dog pack.
IF it comes up, say something along the lines of:
"I'll need some time to think about that."
What if she does bring it up. I don't want to get caught off guard. I am not going to suggest yet that we should start working on R. But maybe I would suggest that she went to see IC to sort out her issues by herself. She knows that I've been seeing IC. She even tried to get his name which I did not give up.
YOU are working on the R.
Try telling an alcoholic they have a drinking problem. It won't work. She needs to be the one to recognize she needs help.
You're going to IC, great! She knows that. How do you feel when you get out of a session? Are you portraying a happy confident person? Should could be seeing good things from you going to IC.
You don't have to give het the specific name but tell her it's the ABC group on main st.
I know that's mind reading, but there have been suddle differences in what she says and how she says it. "When are you going to leave?" has been replaced with "What do you want to do?", "I don't love you." has been replaced with "I was able to love you again last time, but you did not recognize that.", "I have not loved you for 10 years." has been replaced with "I gave us a new start 7 years ago and you blew it
She is uncertain with her feelings. These exapmles could easily flip te other way tomorrow. Be careful.
What's best for me is to stay in the house fix things that I planned on fixing this summer and take care of my dog pack.
voila, there's your answer. Let her know how YOU feel and if she asks a question you don't know the answer to or don't want to reply to right, than use the :
I need time to think about that..
I see your point and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Let me get back to you.
You are the one in control of you.
Saying these things in a loving way will show her you care about her feelings and will process the information.
How do you feel when you get out of a session? Are you portraying a happy confident person?
Yes. After the very first session I came home happy and content. She noticed that and that's when she started grilling me about the IC, who he was and what expertise does he have. She asked me what his philosophy was.
Luckily I had bought DR book right after my early morning session and read the whole thing in a park before I came home. I dodged all of her questions simply saying that IC is a great wise man and that he is perfect for my needs right now.
Luckily I had bought DR book right after my early morning session and read the whole thing in a park before I came home. I dodged all of her questions simply saying that IC is a great wise man and that he is perfect for my needs right now.
Perfect.
Now stay focus and continue the hard work.
Pookie, I thought of this post from robx on tbart thread.
Start reading from page 64
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2057927&page=64you tell her:
"I'm not sure anymore, after going through this entire process, I'm not sure how I feel anymore about you or us as a couple, I've had to get used to the idea of not being with you and not being married because that's all you've wanted for the last several months and honestly I've lost some trust in you since you were willing to split us and our family apart I've had a lot of thinking to do on my part, you feel like considering the two of us getting back together again now but your feelings unfortunately seem to change regularly, and they may change again and that's something I have to consider and I would need to be able to trust you and your commitment to us, I don't want someone to stay with me just because of money, I want something better for me and the person I'm with. That's just me being honest, I hope you can understand that."
You've been pursuing her for so long,
now you turn it around,
you reject her indirectly,
you've had an awakening now,
you've been doing some thinking,
maybe this is for the best,
you don't want someone who is flakey and changes their mind every other day about the relationship they have with you,
you want better,
you're worth better.
It's counter-intuitive and it works, regardless of her initial reaction to you saying this. It's a soft rejection, you're not turning down the idea but you are taking her side on this issue where for the longest time you were on the opposite side of her on this issue. You adopt her thought and mindset on this when she didn't want to be married. This enables her to pursue you, this gives you higher value, this is what she wants, she wants to pursue you (or another man) that she can't have, give her what she wants (indirectly).
The idea is, YOU need time to think about this, it's your decision now, don't just jump at the offer she's giving you, you will get slammed down again. Make her work for it, make her show you she is committed to you and your family and not just because of money security issues.
The real question is, can you pull it off?
I don't think it's something you can "pull off." It has to be an honest decision on your part. Otherwise you're just using Pinhead's Patented Strategy Of The Day...
I have been thinking along the same lines. She needs to hear exactly that.
What follows scares me. If I need to follow up with actions then the logistics of separating will be a nightmare.
I can certainly just leave evrything behind and move out, but I don't trust her with our pets. Even though she has gotten more responsible and sober lately, I don't trust her enough yet.
I know that it's not my problem but it would bother me all day and night thinking whether she has neglected the animals and went back to her drinking sprees.
Maybe I should add some of that to my statement. "You have shown very little regard towards our pets for last 5 months and until I am comfortable that you have the will to take care of them I will not discuss the logistics of the separation."
Honestly I don't know how that will ever work given her schedule and style.
If you're concerned about the welfare of your pets, tell her that you'll be taking care of them when either of you leaves.
If you're concerned about the welfare of your pets, tell her that you'll be taking care of them when either of you leaves.
That would only work if she leaves. The pets and the house need to stay together. I have seen enough animal anxiety after relocation and splitting owners and packs.
I was just reading my journal that I have kept since April. Just looking how I have progressed as well as how W has changed her behavior over time.
It is strange that if I did not read it I would remember only fraction of what has happened. I always thought that keeping a diary was a silly female thing.
When W dropped a bomb she was angry resentful miserable b**** who disappeared every single day including weekends for over 3 months in a row. She never offered any explanations other than “We are not a couple anymore, so I can do what I want”. She neglected our dogs, stopped talking to family and if for some reason she was home, she just yelled and blamed me for her misery.
Although nothing has fundamentally changed yet, since I took a surprise vacation in the beginning of July a lot has actually changed. Although everything has been baby steps, the changes are evident.
She was very interested where I went and with whom. She even speculated to one of my friends that I must have an A. I picked a location that really got to her nerves. A place in Europe that we always talked about visiting but never did.
So for a last month, she has been home much more often, we have gone out to dinners numerous times and she has cooked at home (something that she completely stopped doing). We’ve had enjoyable weekends when she did not drink and get belligerent. I know Gucci yelled at me for allowing her to control one of those weekends, but I took it at face value.
Now, I know that I am not at all out of the woods, but a strange though came to my mind. Cloves off all the anti mind reading crowd – that’s why I am here to hear what you have to say.
What if she did her own 180 to seriously catch my attention? What if she is waiting for me to react in certain way. Obviously I have reacted and probably not the way she thought I would.
But the question is – am I doing a right thing of further distancing myself and appearing as that I don’t care. She has been nagging me about my decision but I am no longer certain what she really wants to hear. I know that the decision has to be made. I either have to tell her that I’m ready to move out or tell her that I could buy the house from her and that she is not fit to keep our dogs which will stay with me. The latter requires for me to be very stern and borderline mean. I could make it less mean by offering a legal contract where I would resume paying her mortgage for certain duration after which I either buy the house or sell it in her behalf.
This is my main issue right now and it’s bugging me day and night. I don’t deserve to be stripped from my “family” and the house I have invested in for 10 years. Simply handing it over to her in hopes of reconciliation may be totally wrong thing to do. Of course she could refuse my alternate offers and we will end up in court. There are laws and judges sympathetic to cohabitants tha have shared their lives the same as married couples.
Thoughts are very welcome.
Weirdness just never ends.
W came home rather late last night. She walked in looking absolutely stunning. She was wearing a skirt (she hardly ever wears skirts to work). The skirt was sexy but professional. She also had on a pearl necklace that we bought from Japan couple of years ago. I said "I haven't seen you in a skirt for a long time, forgot how beautiful your legs are." She smiled, thanked me and sat down. As I still could not get my eyes off her I noticed that she had manicured her toes as well. I said "And nice color toe nail polish, goes well with your necklace". She smiled again and said that she had some important clients visiting from out of town and she needed to make an impression. I agreed that impressive she sure is.
We talked a little and she said that it was a long and exhausting day and that she is going to sleep.
I turned back to Military Channel and she left the room.
Minutes later she came back down still fully dressed sat next to me and asked if I could help to take off her necklace. That was strange because it’s rather long and she could have easily turned it around and unhooked it from her front.
She inched closer and closer to me. If pheromones had odor I could smell it. I felt tingling in my stomach moving downwards. I gently but carefully ran my fingers through her hair pulling it to the side. I could feel a gentle shiver going through her spine. Her legs slowly moved apart but she quickly pulled them back together.
I undid the necklace and removed it while gently sweeping my hands against her neck one last time. She turned to me with her lips inches away from mine and said “thank you”.
I moved back to my TV watching position and said “you’re welcome”.
For a next minute or so she remained seated and she had this face that I know well. The face of “I want to say something or do something, but I am not sure”. I did not react to that, kept watching the Nazis marching across my TV screen.
She then stood up and said “Thank you again and have a good night”. I think last time she said good night was 6 months ago.
I took one more glimpse at her as she walked away. I felt proud, aroused, sad and angry all at the same time.
She inched closer and closer to me. If pheromones had odor I could smell it. I felt tingling in my stomach moving downwards. I gently but carefully ran my fingers through her hair pulling it to the side. I could feel a gentle shiver going through her spine. Her legs slowly moved apart but she quickly pulled them back together.
I undid the necklace and removed it while gently sweeping my hands against her neck one last time. She turned to me with her lips inches away from mine and said “thank you”.
I moved back to my TV watching position and said “you’re welcome”.
For a next minute or so she remained seated and she had this face that I know well. The face of “I want to say something or do something, but I am not sure”. I did not react to that, kept watching the Nazis marching across my TV screen.
She then stood up and said “Thank you again and have a good night”. I think last time she said good night was 6 months ago.
So you focused on the TV?
Yep, she is not sure you are the right man for her. She was looking for some excitement, you failed the test.
Can't you see she was pursuing you? Cats love to hunt. She is all dressed up, smells great, asks you to help her, leans into you and you turn to watch TV (boring). So how did she react? She wanted you to lead once she was there. How is she acting this morning?
I'm gettting yelled at now for not pursuing.
I wanted to be careful and not jump back in. I'd like to see this to be repeated. I don't think I was cold at all. I was nice and respectful. She allowed me into her protected space and I respected that and did not push. My physical contact with her was respectful. You have no idea how I wanted to just grab her and carry her into the bedroom.
This morning was all smiles and she wished me a good day - something that has not been said lately either.
I don't trust these mood swings yet but I will certainly pay more attention now.
P69,
Our W's are the same! Works everyday and late hours. Neglects the dog and shunned the kids for a few months and then finally me.
Fascinating question about further distancing yourself and appearing as if you don’t care. I find myself so into the GAL that I would have failed her test and acted aloof on the couch too.
You do better than me at giving compliments. My W went to work in a mini skirt Tues and I just chalked it up to her trying to get my goat so I said nothing to her.
We are now at the point we just leave the house without acknowledging each other.
I did send her an email telling her she will be removed from my auto insurance policy in a few days. Romantic huh?
I guess I can engage more but still stick to my plans.
I think other than the "catnip on the couch" you are doing well and I will continue to follow your thread because I see similarities to my own situation.
Guys, guys, guys.
It's not pursuing if SHE'S the one pursuing you!
Isn't that the whole goal here?
That's why am getting worried Chuck. I see that something is changing now that I have left her alone and I don't know how to handle situations like last night.
How do you know if she simply wanted to test me to see if I am still clinging? In that case I held my ground.
But if she was testing to see if I still have feelings for her because she is beginning to turn around, I may have failed.
So sex is clinging? Come on, stop overthinking things. Clinging is clutching onto her, chasing her, begging, pleading, persuading.
Sex? That's what she wanted, she wanted that shiver in her spine when you removed her necklace. She wants the spark that makes her purr...
It's not pursuing if SHE'S the one pursuing you!
I understand, but what sould have I done? We haven't been intimate for almost a year. While this roller coaster is still in motion intimacy is the last thing I would consider.
Maybe I should have just given her a neck massage
I have to overcome the fear of being rejected in moments like that.
Funny, it feels like I'm dating her. That would be a good thing.
It's a catch 22. You don't have sex with her then you fail the test. You were boring and would rather watch TV.
OR
You do have sex with her and you are called a Melty Man because she is toying with your emotions and can control you through sex and you need to be more confident and refuse her once in awhile to add mystery and intrigue by not pouncing at her first offer.
Did I put in enough DB cliches in that last sentence?
How is a person to know what to do?
How is a person to know what to do?
"A man's got to know his limitations." - Dirty Harry
We haven't been intimate for almost a year.
What's that all about?
It's common for women to make one last try to make it work before they really walk. Be wise.
Here's a tip:
If you're headed out the door when she comes down in her lingerie with a come hither look, it MIGHT be ok to leave, just to make her want more, and to wonder where the hell you're going instead of taking her...
BUT
If you choose the frigging History Channel over shagging her, then you've failed. I
PH,
It was the Military Channel not the History Channel.
I am a 20 year Air Force man so I totally understand. :>)
1 year is a long time. I am currently at 9 weeks without.
Maybe we should put "Last sx day" in our signature blocks? :>(
Sex? That's what she wanted, she wanted that shiver in her spine when you removed her necklace. She wants the spark that makes her purr...
Oh boy. I wish I could have just taken advantage of it but also acknowledged that we still have issues. I know she always cautioned me when she was doing something nice that I should not read anything into it.
Well, I know now that compliments do work and I will look for a right moment to keep giving them. I have to be classy and a gentleman and spread them wisely and in right quantities.
PH,
It was the Military Channel not the History Channel.
I am a 20 year Air Force man so I totally understand. :>)
1 year is a long time. I am currently at 9 weeks without.
Maybe we should put "Last sx day" in our signature blocks? :>(
Uh, that would be the most depressing thing to see everytime I post. It's been 3 months for me (Mother's Day), and though I've been in a SSM, it wasn't as bad as it is now since there's fruit on the vine I can't reach...
Long story, but let's just say that last 9 months have been very stressful for both of us even before she dropped the bomb.
It's common for women to make one last try to make it work before they really walk. Be wise.
Wisdom is what I need the most. That's why I'm here. I know that if she really wants to make it work, I will have a lot of work to do for times ahead. No way will I dive back into the same old R pretending that it was OK before so it'll be OK again the same way.
It was the Military Channel not the History Channel.
I am a 20 year Air Force man so I totally understand. :>)
I was not going to change it to Lifetime - no way.
Although we both watched the Wife Swap the other day and actually laughed out loud. One couple there was just like us. I felt closeness that night also.
If you choose the frigging History Channel over shagging her, then you've failed.
I know, Hitler always turns her off, but I was just too shocked over her and turned back to TV simply because I did not dare to do what my hormones told me to do. It was too good to be true, so I became paralyzed.
It's easy to Monday morning quarterback.
W is cooking again.
Came home and she made dinner again. Played a lot with the dogs.
While relaxing on the couch she started rubbing her neck and I asked if it was bothering her. She said yes, it's stiff. I asked if rubbing it makes her feel better. She said "maybe, I don't know". I said "why dont' you lay on my lap and let's see if we can make it better". She smiled and laid down immediately.
My fingers are still sore as I'm typing this. I think I massaged her neck and shoulders for about 3 hours with little breaks in between. She kept wanting more and more until she fell to sleep and I was exhausted.
Later I fould that she never letf the house yesterday and was surfing porn for hours. Boy do I feel like a loser from the night before. Oh well, at least I know that her drive is still there.
I said "why dont' you lay on my lap and let's see if we can make it better". She smiled and laid down immediately.
She kept wanting more and more
Later I fould that she never letf the house yesterday and was surfing porn for hours
Oh well, at least I know that her drive is still there.
I wonder what she is thinking about you?
Cue up Fred Sanford.
Coach,
You wonder? I thought you had all the answers
I wonder every day. Cue up I will.
I got home last night first. W texted and wanted to meet for dinner. I was a little annoyed that she did not let me know she was going to be late and I was late too - dogs were barely holding themselves.
After awhile I decided to go. She was late meeting me and seemingly tipsy. I decided to start setting my boundaries and not get into any stupid argument.
First thing that happened was that the bartender failed to remove and replace her dirty salad knife. That's something that annoys both of us but in a light of the last outburst she had last week which started with me complaining in her behalf for lousy food, I decided to take a different approach.
She was complaining to me about the dirty knife. I said “Would you like me to bring this to bartender’s attention? Because last time I spoke in your behalf you got really mad at me. Perhaps you can do it yourself instead of talking to me about it.” She said “I got mad at you? Really?”. I was puzzled. Did she have a blackout that night? It’s possible. But I did not answer that.
Instead I called the bartender and said “Could you please bring the lovely lady here a new knife. W said “See, that was a nice way of handling it.” And smiled.
When our entrees arrived I decided to set some boundaries. I politely touched the subject of personal responsibility and that I would appreciate if she would be more consistent of letting me know when she will be late, that I was having a drink with friends earlier and had to cut it short because I did not trust her being home and that I need to gain back that trust.
She was a little annoyed but did not say anything. I pushed a little more. I said “You spend more time in your favorite bar with your friends that you spend with our pets and at your work combined. What is it that keeps you in that bar from early afternoon until midnight at times?” That triggered her. She snapped back at me “Do you really want to go there? It’s none of your business.” I calmly responded “You’re right. You either tell me or not. Nothing more to it.”
She started pouting like a spoiled brat and playing with her food. I let that go for 15 minutes and then said “I can see you are miserable now. You asked me to join you for dinner and expected to enjoy it, but I also had to express my disappointment that you did not keep you promise to communicate with me about the responsibilities we have in our family. I said what I had to and do not expect to have the same conversation again. Now you are pouting and I am not having a good time. I do not want to have a dinner with a person who is miserable and acting like a child. You are more than welcome to leave right now and I will take care of the bill when I’m done”
I turned to the bartender and started chatting with him. There were 2 gorgeous blonds sitting at the other end and looked like a mother and daughter. I said to the bartender “That’s a hell of a mother/daughter combo there.” We laughed and kept chatting.
W was still miserable and playing with her spaghetti but was not leaving. Then she suddenly turned to me and said “You’re right I am miserable.” I replied “Is there anything I can do to make you feel better?” She said neither yes or no but continued “I am worried about my health and the fact that I may have MS. I am scared.” I said “I am not scared and I know you will be okay. Do you want to talk about it?”
The next hour we talked about her fears and she started relaxing. I told her that we will find the best doctor’s in the country and make sure the diagnosis will be solid before drawing any conclusions and she should not stress herself without knowing any hard facts.
Rest of the evening at home went well. She was relaxed and in a good mood.
This morning she invited her mom over to go shopping together. I have not seen her mom for months. She stopped inviting her over shortly after dropping the bomb. Her mom came and brought her dog to hang out with ours while they’re shopping. We had a brief chat and I told them to have a good time.
So here I am hanging out with 5 dogs and a cat having fun by myself without letting anything bother me. No expectations = no disappointment. Just trying to set some reasonable boundaries carefully and little at the time. I don’t want to trigger her anger. She could never take any criticism even back when things were good. Her easiest response to that right now has always been “If you don’t like what I do then leave.” This was not the response I got yesterday and I think that my new way of communicating is working.
Long ways to go but my patience seems to pay off in small amounts. I am finally managing to get some points across while also showing that I am open to talk and listen and be warm but resolute and firm. All of that without causing a tsunami.
I am beginning to change back to the way I used to be. Whatever the outcome I will keep going because it makes ME feel good about MYSELF.
So the ladies came back from shopping. I expected her mom to stay awhile but after a few words of small talk she left.
Shortly after W left too saying that she was going back to her mom's for dinner.
I used to get upset over something like that but even while hoping that it wasn't the case today I expected it to be exactly that. I am fine with it. She can and should spend time with her mom. It's all good for her. I just miss her mom. We were such close friends for all of the 13 years.
She wants space and she can have it. Three steps forward, two steps back.
Just have to figure out what to do with my late afternoon and evening now.
Here I go doing mind reading and analyzing again and I should not.
Although I was really expecting nothing I thought that perhaps her mom will stay for dinner.
W started vacuuming on the morning and I jumped in offered to take over that task since I am usually the one who does that. She cleaned the kitchen and bathrooms.
We are always cleaning right before someone is expected to come to visit. That's why I thought that her mom would stay.
She spent 5 minutes when she arrived and 2 minutes after they came back. W would never clean if someone just pops in and out like that.
I don't know if her mom talked her out of the dinner idea at our house because she is supporting the idea of ending our R or does she really feel awkward and simply did not want to stay.
I know I should not waste my time thinking about this.
Her mother did not mention dinner? She did not invite you? Your W waited until her mother left and then told you she was going to her mom's? This was after them spending the day shopping?
Her mother did not mention dinner? She did not invite you? Your W waited until her mother left and then told you she was going to her mom's? This was after them spending the day shopping?
Correct. See my additional post about why I though that dinner was coming at our house.
Her mom said "So I'll see you at my house." before she walked out. At that point I thought "you" was both of us.
I asked W if she is going there and she said yes. I asked if she would stay there for dinner, she said yes. I never asked if I was invited because I was not expecting that.
Her mother stopped coming over after the bomb was dropped and W started seeing her mom without inviting me.
I can see how that can be awkward under the circumstances. Her mom and I have been the best of friends.
I'm afraid that I am dealing with the text book case of "family having good intentions with self interest" as described in DR.
Her mom has said repeatedly that she loves both of us and wants to see us happy. It is highly possible that she is standing between us with her "best intentions" and trying to keep the separation on track in hopes of "us" becoming happy without each other.
That is a tough obstacle. I have to see what mood W comes back with and what tomorrow brings. I hate to see all the little things that have happened this past week to cut back at the roots.
I hope I can keep "undoing" that kind of damage, because I now know some stuff that seems to work and some stuff that doesn't.
W came home from her mom's house rather early. I asked whether she had a good time. She said yes. Her mother is widowed and has had a boyfriend for 5 years now. I asked about him. She said that he was there and he asked to say hi to me.
I'll take it for what it's worth.
I enjoyed my quiet time with my dogs on the couch and treated myself for 3 course dinner. I know it was better than hers and I had unconditional love around me the whole night.
I will sleep very well tonight. I don't need her to feel good and she does not know that yet.
I posted the following in A_Goodman's thread. I wanted to move it here because I haven't really talked about that. Goodman's sitch just scared the heck out of me and reminded how my world could shift on it's axis too.
Oh boy,
This is hitting me too close for comfort. I feel for you my friend.
I am approaching the possibility of a similar event. My W also has health concerns. The symptoms point at MS and the doctors have not done serious testing yet.
It scares her and scares me too. I held cool last time she was talking about it as well as the first time she told me. I am also afraid that heavy DB would backfire once the diagnosing gets more serious.
For some reason doctor is reluctant to push ahead with diagnosis and she is so scared that she does not even want to know.
I have a deadline coming up for telling her what I want to do about the separation. The situation makes is so much harder to decide exactly what to tell her.
If it was me in her shoes and I did not feel love any more, I would still appreciate a long time "friend" to stand beside me while I am going through the health crisis.
I would like to put the R talks on hold but she is demanding an answer by the early September and I just don't know what to do.
Hang in there.
I did not mean to hijack your thread here, but your situation is so similar to mine.
Let us know how things work for you. I'll be visiting here often.
I asked whether she had a good time. She said yes. Her mother is widowed and has had a boyfriend for 5 years now. I asked about him.
Perhaps you saw this as just good manners, IDK. However, stop showing interest in what she's doing when she's out.
What you should have done is glance up at her when she came in and said, "Oh, hi", then go back to watching TV or whatever. Let "her" ask questions about "your" evening, and give her one-word answers. When you are dealing with a WAW....you don't give her that kind of importance when she's having dinner where you aren't invited.
I doubt if you can see what I'm talking about.
I doubt if you can see what I'm talking about.
I know exactly what you are talking about and I have been doing that. Perhaps not consistently. It was not my initial question. She started the conversation telling me who else was at the dinner.
Yesterday afternoon we lost power. I purposely did not jump up and hooked up the generator like I usually do. I was working on my laptop and power outage did not interrupt what I was doing.
She was sitting on a couch fiddling with her phone. After awhile it started getting dark and I got up grabbed the flashlight and headed for the door. She asked if I was going to hook up the generator. I said no, I'm heading out to have dinner. She got up and started getting ready. I just stood there thinking - who invited you to come, but I did not want to be mean and let her tag along.
We went to a restaurant which we have not been for a long time. She wanted to take it slow so we would have a better chance to return to the house with power back on. So we stretched the time between courses and hung out.
We talked about her work which is always a stimulating conversation. Again I made sure I listened and made eye contact when she was speaking. I am getting very good at that. I let her finish all her sentences before butting in. I made my responses short and to the point. She seemed to enjoy that.
As we were waiting for the main course she shifted the topic to current politics. We don't usually have any disagreements in that area and sometimes it sort of makes the whole topic not worth discussing. This time however we did disagree.
I was holding to my opinions strongly but reasonably trying to explain why I see things differently. She started arguing that I don't know the whole story and I am missing facts. I agreed that I do not claim to know everything. I asked her to fill me in on the facts. She tried but came up short. I politely suggested that we could carry on the topic once we both have educated ourselves a bit more. She agreed, but was irritated.
Silence followed. I felt very uncomfortable. Being a smoker I have a very easy way out of moments like that. When I returned from my short break the food had arrived.
She immediately started complaining that it is not the same as it used to be and started laying out every little thing that was wrong with it. I just let her complain. Finally she was done and I asked if there is anything right for you today. She stopped, looked down and said that the soup was okay. I said that I was glad that something was right and that she looks really miserable today. I was totally ready for her to start blaming me for all the misery in the world, but she didn't. She only said that she has one of those moments (referring to her health condition) and that she does not want to talk about it.
Moments later she started smiling again and started asking me how my food was. I said that mine is as good as always and offered her a piece. She said no thanks.
Only minutes after that she started asking to get a piece of everything I had on my plate. I agreed to it.
I felt like I was out with a teenage daughter.
After she finished, we stayed for one more drink and she looked like she had gotten over her misery. She was asking all kinds of questions about my friends, who I have seen or talked to lately. I know she misses them.
She talked all the way home and at that point I tuned her out. I was just drained from her mood swings and energy I had to use to hold it in check.
The rest of the evening was nice and uneventful.
If it keeps going like it has lately, we have turned to pre-bomb period. That would be an achievement but I don't want the old status quo either. Maybe it is time to start thinking about "post war rebuilding".
I like your thought process. I also like how you weigh detachment with kindness and think it through like when you took her to dinner uninvited. I am trying to find my way on those decisions too.
Pookie69,
I like the way you are doing it.
I felt like I was out with a teenage daughter.
So your wife felt like she was out with her Dad.
Your interactions with your wife are downers. You can be attractive without pursuing. Go back and look for the opportunites you had to lead, look at how you stifled the conversations and look at how your negative attitude permeated the whole night.
If it keeps going like it has lately, we have turned to pre-bomb period.
It's been how long again?
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Ghandi
[quote]Your interactions with your wife are downers. You can be attractive without pursuing. Go back and look for the opportunites you had to lead, look at how you stifled the conversations and look at how your negative attitude permeated the whole night.[/quoate]
Can you be a little more specific?
Isn't the idea to not to engage in silliness while maintaining a civil attitude? Not falling into traps that I have before?
Please tell me where I went wrong by stifling the conversation. I have done a lot of "I am sorry that you feel that way", "How can I help you feel different?", listened with open mind, not interrupting when she talks to me. Disagreeing only when it has nothing to do with us or our R and doing it with respect.
Help me here Coach. It was her negative attitude that was permiating and I managed to stop it from spreading so that neither of us could talk for hours.
I'm not sure I follow you here. Please guide me.
It's been how long again?
Since the bomb?
Four months. Status quo started earlier than that. Probably since February.
Are you really asking or trying to remind me how long it's been?
Pookie,
As promised, I am now caught up on your thread. I appreciated that you took the time to "hijack" me the other day. It's always good when you discover you're not alone.
I'm sorry for you though. Wouldn't wish all this on anyone. Coach gave me some very important affirmation about some of the things I'm trying to formulate as a plan. I think that you have a duty to stand by her until you find out for sure what her condition is and then afterwards if it might take her life. She can be a $hithead just like mine, but she's your $hithead. She's scared and confused and those negative aspects of her personality are going to come out during those times when she's really feeling it. If she doesn't outright reject your support, stick it out. Coach and Puppy both councilled me on this. they both said be there for her, but also not to accept CB.
I'm not all the way sure how I will do it, but I'm going to try.
I hope for both of us that the health issues are run to ground and turn out to be less serious than suspected. There'll be plenty of time to resume full-on db if so. In the mean time, those aspects of DB that are good for her, i.e. taking the lead; being emotionally strong; having self respect and confidence; Keeping your self physically strong, mentally alert and morally straight will all help you and her.
I have temporarilly discontinued my focus on our future and M. I will be there for my W and try and lighten the load as much as possible while WE face this.
I guess, this is not really advice. I'm not sure how it will all play out or even how I will advance. But it is my planned aproach and I thought I'd share it with you.
Good luck man. I'll stay tuned in.
I purposely did not jump up and hooked up the generator like I usually do.
passive-aggressive, not manly
She asked if I was going to hook up the generator.
Do you know why she asked? Women want safety, they expect their man to provide it. It wasn't a question it was a request.
I just stood there thinking - who invited you to come, but I did not want to be mean and let her tag along.
Who's got the bad attitude? something is bothering you and you don't say anything. So the passive-agressive pouty boy will put a damper on the night.
She wanted to take it slow so we would have a better chance to return to the house with power back on.
You have no idea what woman want. You are a dog lover - women are cats. Can't you see what she really wanted, she pursued you for dinner.
We talked about her work which is always a stimulating conversation. Again I made sure I listened and made eye contact when she was speaking. I am getting very good at that. I let her finish all her sentences before butting in. I made my responses short and to the point. She seemed to enjoy that.
Why did she seem to enjoy that?
I was holding to my opinions strongly but reasonably trying to explain why I see things differently. She started arguing that I don't know the whole story and I am missing facts. I agreed that I do not claim to know everything. I asked her to fill me in on the facts. She tried but came up short. I politely suggested that we could carry on the topic once we both have educated ourselves a bit more. She agreed, but was irritated.
She wanted to have a debate, it's exciting, stimulating and she wants to know what you think. You shut the dialouge down, you sound very condescending from here.
See the result?
She immediately started complaining that it is not the same as it used to be and started laying out every little thing that was wrong with it. I just let her complain. Finally she was done and I asked if there is anything right for you today.
put-down
Agree with her feelings it's how woman feel connected to other people.
I said that I was glad that something was right and that she looks really miserable today.
So the big man is glad she likes her soup and the compliment I'm sure really brightened her mood.
I was totally ready for her to start blaming me for all the misery in the world, but she didn't.
That expectation comes across loud and clear.
She only said that she has one of those moments (referring to her health condition) and that she does not want to talk about it.
I bet you didn't ask her about her health either. 800 lb gorilla in the room and you avoid it after she brings it up. Don't believe for a minute she doesn't want to talk about. She will find someone to listen.
She talked all the way home and at that point I tuned her out.
There is a reason you haven't ML in over a yr.
I was just drained from her mood swings and energy I had to use to hold it in check.
Why did her mood swings drain you?
You are holding back a lot of anger, fear and bitterness. Have you read up on co-dependence and passive-aggressive behavior?
The rest of the evening was nice and uneventful.
Most guys on here would kill to have their wife want to go out to dinner with them. Your goal should be to have "events" after going out with your wife and sharing a good time.
I see your wife as someone wanting more and you not providing it.
Coach,
That was fascinating. That is the nuts and bolts of a conversation broken down to help us learn about women. Other than the "tuned her out" line I missed a great deal.
Coach,
You are amazing. That's why I'm here.
There is such a fine line between pushing and being passive. The trick to successful 180 is where to draw that line. I can see that I am bouncing between extremes.
How about just being normal if I only knew what that felt like...
Got to do some more reading.
How about just being normal if I only knew what that felt like...
forget normal, be the best Pookie you can. that's success.
You won't have the ability to "see" her and the situations if you are holding in negative emotions - anger, fear, resentment etc. They cloud your vision and how you act. You can't love her until you really love yourself - you can't give away what you don't have. This builds your confidence and the ability to show compassion and empathy (real validation.) So my point is learning "techniques" isn't as effective as learning what love, connection, intimacy, dialouge and attraction are. Having this wisdom allows you to love and connect in a powerful way.
be the best Pookie you can
Does not seem to be hard if my head wasn't spinning with all this DB stuff.
You won't have the ability to "see" her and the situations if you are holding in negative emotions - anger, fear, resentment etc
Anger - not so much anymore. Of course I was angry when she dropped the bomb.
Fear - absolutely, fear of her health, fear of losing her and my family, fear of being rejected while honestly showing compassion and empathy.
Resentment - that's more towards the whole sitch. Why do I want to be with the person who does not want to be with me?
Some dozens of posts back I got yelled at for not being decisive. W was asking me for a commitment date to tell her when I will give her an answer to "leave her and move out" which that day had changed to "what are your plans?" I was told that it was the only true thing she is interested of hearing from me - the decision that I am unable to make.
I was then criticized for not making my own decisions that weekend when she suddenly started leading the activities which we both enjoyed. I was very confused then as I still am. I saw that my promise to talk to her about my decision by a certain date relaxed her to the point that she was able to have a great time with me. I did not see a reason to disagree with whatever she wanted to do. I was told that I was weak.
Another thing happened that weekend was the complete revelation of her health problems. She had kept it inside for many months. I was not as shocked as I would have been if I already did not know. Nevertheless is was disturbing and scary.
I have been preparing myself to let her go and tell her that I will move out if she still wants me to. I have to do that don't I? But considering that I know (she has told me) her health condition and all the uncertainty around it, how will she really look at me if I say that I will leave her? How can there be TRUE compassion and empathy from me? How do you balance between what I THINK she wants to hear, what she REALLY wants to hear and what would be a HONORABLE thing to do.
Am I 180'ing right out the door that she opened?
People here say al lot about WAW's constantly monitoring and testing you. How do I know that I am not under an ultimate test? A test of honor.
1. Am I a man enough to let her go? Wouldn't that honorable thing to do?
2. Am I a man enough not to run yet, stay beside her and help her to get through with her health condition? Wouldn't that honorable thing to do?
3. Am I a man enough to have recognized that R changes are required and taken steps to come out to implement them? Am I capable of becoming a man she fell in love with and lead us both to the right path to be happy together as a family? Wouldn't that honorable thing to do?
There is no way of knowing which answer she is waiting for. Any one of the above would put an end to the status quo. We both agree on that. The R as it stands needs to end.
One's health is nothing to play games with. She could have kept that secret from me forever or at least until I moved out. Now she has told me everything she knows.
Is she really expecting me to pack up and leave now? Could that be the biggest mistake I can make? I have been preparing for the worst and hoping for the best but this sitch has gotten very convoluted.
Isn't the idea to not to engage in silliness while maintaining a civil attitude? Not falling into traps that I have before?
NO. The idea is to be so attractive that someone who has become bored with the mundane sees nothing but excitment and falls head over heels in love with you. You lead, you flirt, you engage in conversation that does not allow them to regurgitate the negativity of their day but want to tell you about their goals and dreams. Then you make them feel like that is the only thing that matters in the world. You make them laugh. Do this no matter who you are with, your walk away wife, your loving wife, someone that takes an interest in you, your colleagues, and your clients. It is as simple as making someone feel that when they are around you they are important.
It is hard to find "chemistry" with someone who cannot break the silence and allows themselves to be uncomfortable. It's hard to want to develop "chemistry" when the other person does not want to know everything about you and challenges you to let them know more.
My only recommendations, if the dinner thing is periods of awkward silence and arguments start choosing to split an appetizer. It makes for a much quicker change of scenery if the social interaction starts to go down hill. Try not leaving your date/wife alone at the table to go have a smoke. Wandering eyes find attention. And, throw out your diary products, because in your bonehead move to make a point, your milk and mayonaise sat unrefridgerated.
A bit of useless knowledge:
The Capgras delusion (or Capgras syndrome) is a disorder in which a person holds a delusion that a friend, spouse, parent or other close family member has been replaced by an identical-looking impostor.Be your own Doppelgänger that represents mystique and desire.
Had a meeting with my IC this morning. He seems to think that based on W's behavior she does not have both feet out the door just yet.
My decision deadline is approaching. IC recommended to "bet on a horse" and lay out my thoughts as follows:
"I will move out if you want me to. I will be fine without you however I prefer to have you along in my life. I think that it is worth taking another look at our situation. I agree that the current R is dead and the status quo needs to end but I prefer to try to re-create ourselves to work on a new R.
I will stand by you and be supportive with your struggle through your health issues as long as you let me to.
If you ask me to move out, I will but I would prefer to maintain a R that allows for us to re-create ourselves.
These are my thoughts towards the decision that needs to be made."
IC did not think that this is too pursuing given the fact that there have been some signals that W may have second thoughts but would not budge until she sees that I have made some decisions whatever they may be. He also said that it's okay to put that in writing and give it to her because they are just thoughts and not the final decision.
Thoughts anyone?
"I will move out if you want me to.
I quit after reading that. Do you understand why that opening is terrible?
"I am prepared to move out" ?
OK. I understand that I cannot ask her for her approval for my decisions but there has been a long silence over our R.
She wanted me to tell her what I think about the situation. Her behavior coupled with her fear ofer her health has changes some of the dynamic. I want to tell her that I have accepted the fact that I may have to move out, but I don't want to slam the door on my way out.
I want to let her know that I have recognized that the last time seven years ago we went through a similar phase and I know now that I did not handle things well after getting a chance from her. It's important because she brought it up recently.
I also want to tell her that I will be supportive of her health issues. Sometimes people with sickness withdraw themselves from loved ones. I don't want her to think that I've decided to run and have no regard of that.
And finally I'd like to find a way to throw out the re-inventing our R. I have never asked her to consider that, even when I was doing the initial begging and crying.
What if she is open to that now? What if she is looking for some strength from me that does not include separation?
How do I put it all together in a strong honest and convinceable way? I have to end this stalemate.
What if she is looking for some strength from me that does not include separation?
What would show her strength?
What has she said she wants?
She wanted me to tell her what I think about the situation.
What is your plan for staying or going?
Where would you live?
What does your L say?
Whats the plan on the dogs?
How and why would you support her with the health issues either way?
You can't reinvent anything if you stay the same. What are you doing to get wiser, understand women more, become attractive, interesting and confident?
What would show her strength?
At this point I think she wants my decision how to end the stalemate. It has been over 4 months without me saying anything about it.
What has she said she wants?
At the day of the bomb she wanted to get rid of me. Since then she has not said anything other than that she is waiting for my answer.
What is your plan for staying or going?
Only choice I have is to move. House is hers and I am not going to buy her out even though I love it and it's location.
I would rent until all the dust settles.
Only consultation I eve had was about trying to get my half of the house equity. It's doable but will get ugly.
Whats the plan on the dogs?
My plan is to keep then together as a pack with the house. I've seen too much anxiety and suffering pets go through when separated from their home and from each other. It's bad enough that they lose on of the masters.
How and why would you support her with the health issues either way?
Is that a trick question? Empathy? Friendship?
What are you doing to get wiser, understand women more, become attractive, interesting and confident?
With variable success I have learned how to listen to her and pay more attention to her. I have learned how to stop "Old Pookie" on it's tracks when dealing with predictable situations. I have tried different responses and have surprised myself quite often. Long ways to go but it's been working in little steps.
Attractive, interesting and confident - these have always been my qualities but I have been a doormat for quite some time now and need to figure this out.
It is very hard to be interesting if your W knows you so well. Confidence part is a subjective topic. I am much more confident about movin on with my life at home. I don't sit around moping. I find chores to do and take care of the pets and myself. I cook myself often and completely enjoy time alone when she is not around. I do not miss her a bit and it does not bother me what time she shows up. If I could only justify to myself that there is some work in the yard and on the house that needs to be done, I would feel really good. That requires cash investment and I don't know if I should go ahead and do that. Although lately I've been thinking, so what it's just money. Why not just go ahead and replace a few windows and garage doors. It was on my list long before the bomb.
You need to have your plan thought out and ready to articulate to your wife. No pressure (she doesn't have to decide or choose anything) on her. Let her go so she can decide what to do.
It is very hard to be interesting if your W knows you so well.
Then you really need to think about how selfish you are by asking her to stay with someone who is boring her out of her skull. (sarcasm intended
) Put yourself in her shoes. You can reinvent yourself and still be you. Become attractive because it will help your relationship or it will help you down the road.
So the plan should be simple with not choices?
I am moveing out period and we can talk about the logistics of my move, equity, posessions, belongings and removal of my personal stuff when you're ready.
That's it?
I didn't say move out.
What have you decided and why?
Why is there this deadline looming?
I cannot force her to move even though I have said before that the one who is unhappy should leave. The house has been under her name for the past 7 years out of 10 years we've lived in it.
I can offer to buy out her half - that's the possibility.
The deadline is looming because she asked me to commit to a date when I could give her the answer what I want to do and I did.
I understand that I don't have to agree to either of us to move and tell her something completely different but the alternative is to tell her that I feel strongly that the current stalemate needs to end and I would be committed to work on myself and my half of the issues. If she disagrees I will say that I need to move out then.
Is that where you going with this?
The deadline is looming because she asked me to commit to a date when I could give her the answer what I want to do and I did.
scroll down and read the King Arthur story.
Sir Gawain pondered this dilemma. Either way struck him as a blessing and curse. Being the courteous knight that he was, however, he could respond in only one fashion:
“Dear lady, the decision must be yours not mine.”
So that's what you're pointing at?
As Moses, might have said, "Set My Woman Free!"
okay guys,
It's been a long and busy day at work.
Leave, don't leave, set her free, detach, King Arthur's "decision is yours not mine", Gucci's comment about not being decisive about this particular request.
Maybe I am too tired today, but I got lost here a bit.
Yes, you agree with her. This marriage isn't working for you either. You lay out that you have a plan for staying together or reconciling (which you need to do - it helps you detach and be prepared). You respect her wishes and you will be fine regardless of the outcome. Then you let her go and let her be the next one to speak.
This helps you start a outline for your LBS script.
You lay out that you have a plan for staying together or reconciling (which you need to do - it helps you detach and be prepared).
Did you mean "staying together or separating"?
Let me confirm this (I think I'm running on 3 cylinders here):
Get a plan together for both instances and serve the option without revealing the plans. Wait for the answer and then execute the corresponding plan.
Did you mean "staying together or separating"?
yes, just trying to confuse you a little more.
Get a plan together for both instances and serve the option without revealing the plans. Wait for the answer and then execute the corresponding plan.
Yes, lead, be decisive, think thru this.
Remember the question - What do you want? Answer - You want her to be happy. If she would be happier without you then so be it. If it means you work on things great. Either way here is the plan.
Coach,
What do you think if I would prepare 3 envelopes. The first one has my "answer" and the other 2 the corresponding plan outlines.
I will give her the first and ask not to answer right away.
When she returns with the answer (however long it takes) I will hand her the plan she chose. This time I'll let her read the outline and we can discuss specifics right away if she wants to.
I have to be ready to offer either plan right away, why not do it in that fashion.
Good idea, bad idea?
Journaling a little.
Just before leaving work today I texted her if she wanted to go out to dinner tonight at the place we haven't been for a long time and she really likes it there. I thought that since every time we go it has either been her initiation or my "statement" that it is where I was going with or without her. I figured to throw in a nice invitation for a change.
She responded "No, thanks, just going out myself tonight." This somewhat incomplete sentence is different than any other time. It's usually "I'll be late" or "I'm going out with the client" or "I'll be at moms".
I replied "Do I need to run home?" because I never know when she actually leaves the house and therefore need to estimate my time for the dogs. She replied "Please, I am just finishing a meeting".
Nothing here really to read into. She has been balancing our time together with her other "fun" pretty fairly lately.
However there is another thing that bothers me today.
I learned from one of my sources that she has organized a party next friday night at her vacation house and invited some coworkers and "friends" from the "Pit of Deception" (the bar she disappears in). There is that one guy that I have kept an eye on for possible EA. I learned that some people have been asked to stay over but I don't know exactly who.
That I have a problem with. I am suppose to drop off 2 dogs in the middle of the week (T or W) and was invited to stay overnight. I don't like this party idea for several reasons but primarily I don't want to have my dogs in the middle of the party where they can easily be neglected or even get loose in a strange and isolated environment. And if there is anything sinister going on I want my "kids" not to be there.
I don't know what to do about that. If she tells me I could express my concerns but if not then what? If I back off from my promise to drive up I need to explain why and the other 2 pups will still be there.
I will try to make her tell me her detailed plans of who is staying there and when.
Just before leaving work today I texted her if she wanted to go out to dinner tonight at the place we haven't been for a long time and she really likes it there. I thought that since every time we go it has either been her initiation or my "statement" that it is where I was going with or without her. I figured to throw in a nice invitation for a change.
= pursuing
I replied "Do I need to run home?"
Stop asking to do things for her. Your wife can ask for help if she needs it.
I learned from one of my sources that she has organized a party next friday night at her vacation house and invited some coworkers and "friends" from the "Pit of Deception" (the bar she disappears in). There is that one guy that I have kept an eye on for possible EA. I learned that some people have been asked to stay over but I don't know exactly who.
This combined with her staying up at night on the computer getting a finger workout while you sleep and not ML for over a year is not good. What intel do youy have?
That I have a problem with. I am suppose to drop off 2 dogs in the middle of the week (T or W) and was invited to stay overnight. I don't like this party idea for several reasons but primarily I don't want to have my dogs in the middle of the party where they can easily be neglected or even get loose in a strange and isolated environment. And if there is anything sinister going on I want my "kids" not to be there.
Seriously you are worried about your dogs? The dogs can handle it. What kind of dogs are they?
If she tells me I could express my concerns but if not then what? If I back off from my promise to drive up I need to explain why and the other 2 pups will still be there
That would make you look silly.
I will try to make her tell me her detailed plans of who is staying there and when.
So you can approve?
You need to do some intel gathering, talk to a L and have a plan - how to let her go.
ps She can get you to jump any time she wants by telling you the dogs need you. Let her care for the dogs.
Face to face conversation looks stronger?
Face to face conversation looks stronger?
Because that's how men handle things. Be business like, efficient, passionate but not emotional about the outcome and sure of yourself.
Stop asking to do things for her. Your wife can ask for help if she needs it.
I understand. should have asked: How long have the dogs been alone since you left?
This combined with her staying up at night on the computer getting a finger workout while you sleep and not ML for over a year is not good. What intel do youy have?
This one is more complicated than it looks. My intel tells me that there is no PA, but is is a possiblility that it's a EA. They have been friends and clients for years.
Seriously you are worried about your dogs? The dogs can handle it.
Yes, I am a little and I am worried about the whole thing. The purpose of the vacation was suppose to be to get away from work and home and relax. Have family members pop in for day trips and read books.
That would make you look silly.
You're right. Should just tell her to have a good time.
What choice do I have - I have to agree with her, don't I?
You need to do some intel gathering, talk to a L and have a plan - how to let her go.
I have beem doing plenty of intel gathering. Stopped for awhile because besides silly friendly texts and meetings over a drink with friends, there was nothing there.
I am working on a plan, but it's not easy to come up who I think should leave. I don't trust her with the house and the dogs but it's part of the single life she needs to cope with. On the other hand I won't mind at all to stay with it all and let her leave.
ps She can get you to jump any time she wants by telling you the dogs need you. Let her care for the dogs.
So should I tell her that I cannot do the swap as I originally agreed to. Reason? Can't take a day off? Or be honest and say that I do not think it is appropriate for me to be used as a delivery boy?
The purpose of the vacation was suppose to be to get away from work and home and relax.
that's what she said, what do her actions tell you she wants.
she know's you to well yet you don't know her. she's bored, she's not attracted to you, she's going out drinking and talking with other men, she's throwing a party with all her new friends and you aren't invited. you should be worried.
time for some action on your part
Her actions tell me that she wants to go and relax in peace and have some dogs with her. She has her mother and aunt come and visit for a day (different days). She invited me for a day and overnight stay as well.
The party is the last Friday before she leaves. The usual friends from work including her bosses and couple of good clients. I don't see too much wrong with that other than the fact that she is burned out from work and wanted to get away.
And truly I don't like my dogs being there in the midst of all the chaos of a party. They are not off-leash dogs and I can see a accident in the making. When we have had a lot of people in the house it was always difficult to host while watching every move. Who leaves the front door open, who wonders through the garage, etc.
But you are right, there is time for action from my part. Just have to figure out how to get my mojo back.
Her actions tell me that she wants to go and relax in peace and have some dogs with her.
Then why is she having a party without you?
Never told me what kind of dogs you own.
How come you never married?
Then why is she having a party without you?
Never told me what kind of dogs you own.
How come you never married?
I don't know. Maybe she wanted to show off at the end of her vacation. Mabel she knows she'll be bored by then. I am not invited because for some audience we are not a couple right now.
We had 2 beagles, beagle/Lhasa apso mix and a havanese. One beagle died recently and we got a cavalier king Charles spaniel.
I just put my DNA and a fingerprint on this forum.
I was married once before and we started dating while my divorce was being processed. She asked me once back then but obviously it was not a right time. Later we both decided that it was not a necessary as long as our commitment was there. Neither of us wanted children so it really was not important.
Although I have very moral values I don't see myself as a sinner. I respect God but I know he would not mind.
I am not invited because for some audience we are not a couple right now.
Things that make you go hmmmm?
She asked me once back then but obviously it was not a right time.
Obvious to you, she wanted to get married.
Let go of some of your pre-conceived notions about your woman and woman in general.
Things that make you go hmmmm?
Not really. Since the bomb, there has been quite a few social events involving coworkers. Some we attended but she was quite distant back then. So we stopped that. People started wondering and she told the closest friends that we had problems. Word got out and the rest is what it is.
For the audience that does not know anything, we are still together and okay, that includes family as well.
She never wanted our issue to become public. I got heavily criticized when I reached out to her mother. She did not even want her to know.
Obvious to you, she wanted to get married.
Yes, she did and I did too, but the timing was wrong and we decided to talk about it later. When later came we both felt that it was not important any more. We joked that we can have many vacations with the money we would spend on a wedding.
Let go of some of your pre-conceived notions about your woman and woman in general.
How does that show so clearly to you?
[quote]
Yes, she did and I did too, but the timing was wrong and we decided to talk about it later. When later came we both felt that it was not important any more. We joked that we can have many vacations with the money we would spend on a wedding.
Pookie, you have the same skills at insight into women that I have. NONE. You need to understand what she was saying then, why, and how that has led you to Aug 26th, 2011.
Hindsight is 20/20. There are lot of things that I've done wrong and lot of things she has done wrong too. Unfortunately right now I am the only one in this R who is trying to learn and figure out how to move on. For her the past only holds negativity and I am the source of her misery.
There are a few more things she never forgave me for and I never saw them as an issue until she pointed them out years later.
It was all in communication and my inability to read her and listen to her. When she talked I should have translated it but I did not have a dictionary.
How does that show so clearly to you?
This:
Yes, she did and I did too, but the timing was wrong and we decided to talk about it later. When later came we both felt that it was not important any more. We joked that we can have many vacations with the money we would spend on a wedding.
You joked that money and taking vacations was more important than her honor. I know you think you talked about it, you rationalized it away. There is a reason women shop for and buy a wedding dress, coordinate the bridesmaids, get her maid of honor to help, get a engagement ring, have numerous wedding showers, plan a big reception, order flowers, plan the music, vows and readings for the wedding and then take a honeymoon trip. Guys show up in a rented tux. It's a big deal to her. Never take for granted what is important to your woman.
She is now spending time with other men, drinking in bars with them and inviting them to parties at her vacation home to spend the night, all without you. She has health issues on her mind, she wants you gone, she's lonely and frustrated. She will find someone to listen, someone who gets her and she will give her heart to him for being there. I think she is well on here way there. Don't think for a second she is not capable of it.
I hear you loud and clear, Coach.
I can't change the past. It wasn't today that I just realized some of the mistakes I have made. The challenge is how to move forward from here. She knows that I'm there for her all the time. She invited me for dinner last night and she was doing a lot of talking. I listened, paid attention and said all the right things. It was a restaurant where most dishes can be shared. It was fun and cute to do that. It created closeness.
For a split moment I felt like there is no crisis. She was smiling, laughing and remembering some good times from the past that she brought up.
I am still struggling with my upcoming speech. I know what to say and I do have the two plans in place. I have ran through all possible scenarios especially if she starts interrupting me or refusing to hear me out. It is also difficult to find the way to be resolute and strong with words without coming across as not caring or cold.
It is also difficult to find the way to be resolute and strong with words without coming across as not caring or cold.
That's one of those dysfunctional beliefs.
It is very caring and warm to let her know, you "see" her now and you realise this relationship isn't what either of you want. (you agreed with her) It's wrong of you to want to keep her in a relationship that is not making her happy (let her go). You want her to be happy and that is why you have no reservations about moving on. (she get to choose her outcome now). Do you see how loving and liberating that path is?
It is very caring and warm to let her know, you "see" her now and you realise this relationship isn't what either of you want. (you agreed with her) It's wrong of you to want to keep her in a relationship that is not making her happy (let her go). You want her to be happy and that is why you have no reservations about moving on. (she get to choose her outcome now). Do you see how loving and liberating that path is?
Yes I do. That is exactly what I am going to say. I will completely agree that the R in it's current form needs to end and I will offer two options both of which I believe could lead to happiness and I am perfectly okay with either choice.
The little trouble I have is to stay firm in case she does not want to hear the second option. There is not a lot to say about the first one – I will move out and you can have the house and the pets. I will keep you posted on my progress of finding a new place to live and coordinate the removal of my belongings, etc.
The second option needs more delicacy. It cannot sound “hopey changey” or pushy. I want to insert some info that I have identified a lot disfunctionality in our current R and that’s why I propose “reinvention” rather than a bandage. I want for her to understand that I am not expecting anything and really talking about starting from scratch. Even that option may include option #1. I am a little worried whether she will give me enough time to lay that out.
I would like her to take a moment to digest what I will tell her because the there is a serious reality behind both options.
I am prepared to deal with her. If she starts interrupting or jumping on choice #1 without letting me finish I would politely ask her to hear me out since it was her request for my response. Since I will have solid plans behind each option I think I can make a request to be heard. I highly doubt that she has a comparable plan but that’s assuming.
Finally I am wondering if I should have this talk Saturday before she leaves for her vacation or stick to the original date.
The little trouble I have is to stay firm in case she does not want to hear the second option.
Not your choice to make. Your wife is much more detached than you realise, she's trying to let you down softly, she doesn't want to hurt your feelings, she's mothering you which is a attraction killer.
I would like her to take a moment to digest what I will tell her because the there is a serious reality behind both options.
She has been thinking about this for years. So if she answers right away then what? Her answer is invalid? See how you are trying to control things? Let go, holding on doesn't work.
Finally I am wondering if I should have this talk Saturday before she leaves for her vacation or stick to the original date.
The sooner the better. Get your ducks in a row and take action.
She has been thinking about this for years. So if she answers right away then what? Her answer is invalid? See how you are trying to control things? Let go, holding on doesn't work.
No, it's not invalid and I am not going to hold if she does not want me to continue but I want to have a chance to finish what I need to say. She asked me "what do you want?" and I am going to say just that and until I am finished.
Not your choice to make. Your wife is much more detached than you realise, she's trying to let you down softly, she doesn't want to hurt your feelings , she's mothering you which is a attraction killer.
She has never had a problem with that. I don't think that's the case. She has her own strange way of apologizing but she does not hold back what she wants to say. It has always been that way with everyone, not just with me.
She asked me "what do you want?"
"For you to be happy." Let her go. Give her what she wants. Anything else is pursuing, clingy, needy and unattractive.
Coach,
Are you saying now that it's all I should tell her? That short and sweet?
What I read out of the King's quest story that options could exist and she should be allowed to choose. I shall be okay with whichever she chooses.
What I read out of the King's quest story that options could exist and she should be allowed to choose. I shall be okay with whichever she chooses.
What I read out of the King's quest story that options could exist and she should be allowed to choose. I shall be okay with whichever she chooses.
King Lear Act 3 Scene 2
"No, I will be the pattern of all patience;
I will say nothing."
I am not familiar with your color coding, but I take it as a YES.
Coach,
I want to thank you for passing by here as often as you have. I appreciate your wisdom.
I will have a talk this Saturday before she leaves. I will make it short brief and to the point.
I will make my offer with options and also announce that I have plans in place for both, which I do.
What if she wants to hear the plans also before answering me?
I don't want to play with an open deck.
What if she wants to hear the plans also before answering me?
She wants a man who makes plans.
I don't want to play with an open deck.
Why? You aren't bluffing or trying to win.
You will start to get clarity once you let go. I know it sounds like I'm asking you to jump off a cliff in the dark. I want you to succeed.
Thanks Coach.
You're right. I won't be bluffing and I'm not looking to win.
Winning does not guarantee success. Success however may require losing at times. I can say that when looking back at my own career.
You're the best of putting things into perspective.
I wish my W would get some unbiased advice from you. God knows she needs that.
You will start to get clarity once you let go. I know it sounds like I'm asking you to jump off a cliff in the dark.
act 4 scene 6 *wink*
EDGAR
"Why, then, your other senses grow imperfect
By your eyes' anguish."
Journaling a bit.
W texted earlier than usual to let me know that she was going to be late again. I usually do not respond. This time it said "I might be late."
I texted back "what does might mean?" She replied "will be late"
I said "that's much better, now I know what I have to do."
Stopped on my way to get some food to cook. Grabbed a single corn and a filet mignon for nice self treat.
All of a sudden around 7 W walks in. I did not expect her that early. She was in a good mood al little tipsy but not drunk. She started picking up the dogs and placing them on my lap (this is the latest strange behavior).
She noticed the crocery bag on the counter. I said "I did not expect you to come home so early, so I bought myself dinner material. If you are hungry I can share but there is only one piece of corn.
She said that it's okay, we can split it and proceeded to make dinner.
Then something strange happened. As she was grilling outside she asked me to feed the dogs. So I did. We finished dinner and went to the living room. I took the dogs out and when I came and sat down she went to the kitchen and fed the dogs ????
I was puzzled and asked why she did that. She looked at me and asked "what do you mean?". I said "You told me half an hour ago to feed them and I did. Don't you remember?"
A little problem here is that one of the dogs is on medication and now received a double doze with his dinner.
She looked angry and mumbled that the double doze is not harmful.
I said, "that's not what worries me. It's you who did not remember."
She paced back and forth and went to bed.
Something is happening. This is not the first time she has had a blackout like that. I wonder if it has happened more often than I've realized. But there is always some alcohol involved.
Not a good situation.
had the munchies
didn't remember
paced back and forth
crashed in bed
Something is happening.
smokes a little dope.
Absolutely not.
However there is a possiblity of antidepressants.
W hates any medication or drugs, but maybe she is taking some happy pills. I have to search her car, because there is nothing in the house.
But if you have followed my story here, you'll see that she thinks she may have MS which is very confusing disease.
There was an MRI scheduled but postponed.
Could be menopause and the "fuzzy" thinking.
Her mind could be somewhere else.
Maybe the dogs talked her into it.
smokes a little dope.
Absolutely not.
Could be she smoked a lot of dope.
If her behavior is bothering you then it is your responsibility to bring it up. Go to the source.
The dogs sure aren't.
It's not the menopause. Some time ago I thought of that and she did too eventhough neither of us brought up that possibility.
She got bloodwork done and apparently there was no sign of early menopause.
She hates dope and people who use it, trust me, she despises them, so it isn't that.
I think it's happy pills mixed with alcohol. It may explain her irrational behavior that one weekend after only 3 glasses of wine.
But, yes it does bother me. I wish she would continue to get diagnosed. I am ready for whatever it might be.
I have to be careful how I would bring this up. You don't tell an alcoholic that they drink too much. You don't tell the dopehead that they smoke too much. You don't push a person about their health issues. For them it's personal and no one else's business.
You don't tell the dopehead that they smoke too much. You don't push a person about their health issues. For them it's personal and no one else's business.
Unless you love them.
When their issues have impact on your life.
When they have choice in how they behave and it is effecting the R you have with them.
Funny how you spoke up about your dog getting a "Double dose" but nothing to your wife. This is a patttern.
Totally understood, but I have tried to talk about her health and got a "I don't want to talk about it" or even "none of you business" (in the beginning).
It wasn't until I stopped pestering her and then one day she told me everything. Now I have brought it up when I see her visibly uncomfortable. I have asked when the next dr. appointment is and she has said that it's on hold until her vitamin therapy ends.
I have brought up her drinking when it was out of control. That did not go over well at all.
With all your wisdom and experience have you ever told an alcoholic that their behavior affects people around them? How did they respond?
Some time ago I talked to her mother when W was really in the cutter. Her mom said that there is nothing anyone of us can say or do. She agreed that W is in the path of self destruction but she needs to fall. She was like that when teenager and she came out of her drug using years on her own. More she was approached about it the more she kept using it. She saw someone almost die before she cleaned up her act. That’s why today she despises the drug users.
Sadly one DWI 15 years ago taught her nothing about drinking. That lesson is yet to come.
I know, Coach, how you are capable of changing perspectives with one sentence. So, how do I raise my concern about these blackouts while “letting go” and not sticking my nose in her business?
Funny how you spoke up about your dog getting a "Double dose" but nothing to your wife. This is a patttern.
BTW, there is nothing funny about that. She is totally unapproachable when she has been drinking. It would have started an argument. I decided to bring up my concern over her action rather than over her condition. I think she got it.
I am not suppose to ber her daddy, right?
So, how do I raise my concern about these blackouts while “letting go” and not sticking my nose in her business?
BOUNDARIES
With all your wisdom and experience have you ever told an alcoholic that their behavior affects people around them? How did they respond?
Talking isn't the answer it's how you respond (consequences) to someone elses bad behavior. Instead of being a victim you take control of your life and don't enable others.
Boundaries,
That's a good one. I am about to leave her with her house and the pets. I may have to change my position in this. I can leave the house but the pets come with me. If this pattern continues I can't be certain that the pets are properly cared for. I can set that boundary.
However if the episodes are indeed caused by a serious illness and not by happy pills and alcohol, then what? You thought it was funny that I appeared to care more about my dog than her. How's packing up all living things and run away as if she was a leper look like?
Obvioulsy we are talking about perception here.
However if the episodes are indeed caused by a serious illness and not by happy pills and alcohol, then what? You thought it was funny that I appeared to care more about my dog than her. How's packing up all living things and run away as if she was a leper look like?
Obvioulsy we are talking about perception here.
That's where facts and the truth help you decide.
That's where facts and the truth help you decide.
I am running out of time to find all the facts and the truth. I have to "let her go". That is true for both options I am about to give her. If I have to leave I will and it seems that the one of the conditions in my "plan" will be taking the pets with me.
If she is reluctant to agree to my departure, then the boundary setting makes sense. That would be a whole different situation.
But even with the first choice I can hold my ground and explain exactly why I don't see her fit to take responsibility for what she wants to keep and it does not need to be negative.
If her behavior is caused by her own actions she needs to clean up her act and we can discuss the custody of our pets. If it is health related and beyond her direct control she needs to get diagnosed so we all will know what lies ahead and go from there.
Sounds like you are thinking about what is best for you right now. Feels good doesn't it?
Cheers
It does.
"love your neighbor as yourself."
Love is not love
When it is mingled with regards that stand
Aloof from the entire point.
act 1 scene 1
Let not women's weapons, water-drops, stain my man's cheeks!"
act 2
scene 4
W came home just after me. Smiley, happy, in a good mood. I was doing some work on my laptop. She suggested to go to a jazz club which we haven't been for a long time. I thought it was an excellent idea. She asked if I wanted to invite my best friend who is a huge jazz fan and we used to have a lot of fun in that place.
I called him and he was a game to go.
While we were waiting to kill time to meet, she was - again - bringing over all of our dogs placing then on my lap and being cutely goofy about it. Every time she kept coming closer and closer to me until our bodies and faces would touch.
I told her about my day and about the fact that her old boss, who now works for a different company paid a visit today to say hi and catch up with business we have together.
She asked me what he had to say. I told her that we talked a lot. She then said "I knew I could not trust him and I apologize for that." I said that I don't understand what you mean by that. She said "Well, back when he left the company I told him that we were ending our relationship and he was heartbroken over that."
I told her (which is the truth) that he never discussed that with me. She was relieved.
I asked her whether she is going around telling everybody about our issues like that (we are working in the same industry). She said no, that it was an isolated case with her ex boss at the time and he cornered her at the social event that I was not present.
I let it go and we kept killing time.
All the way to the club she was talking to me about the latest developments of her job. I listened, validated her points and offered my opinions when appropriate.
She picked up her phone and made a call. After that she told me who she called and what she talked about. Then she checked her e-mail and started reading it to me out loud. Next she went through her texts and again told me everything about it. The sudden transparency of that stunned me.
My friend was waiting for us. She was happy to see him. The food was great as usual and the band was outstanding. She had some catching up to do with my friend and as they were sitting across from me they were enjoying each other's company. I smiled and let them talk.
On our way home she tuned into my favorite satellite radio music station and turned it way up. We have slightly different taste in music because I am stuck in 80's and she has moved on from that.
It was a nice gesture from her part because I usually tune into her present top 40 when she's a passenger.
There was no talking because we were both rocking on 80's new wave.
We got home played with the dogs and she retired to bed.
I was going to have my talk tomorrow and I am a bit taken back on that. I know there will be a lot of preparation needed for her vacation departure. At the same time I cannot delay this any longer. It HAS to be done. She is eating the cake right now and getting all the best treatment from me while enjoying every minute of it.
I may have to hold the talk until I pay her a visit next week or even after she returns. The people count for her next Friday's party is growing and there are more "friends" mounting up. I want to see if she is going to tell me about the party afterwards or not. That would be important for me about her honesty.
Have I been blindsided, am I dumb, is she playing me or is she giving me a signal?
Your wisdom is appreciated.
P.S. Coach, I am not going to melt by not giving her the "speech". I am done with this R as it stands. It cannot continue like this. But I do seek help to see through this fog.
But I do seek help to see through this fog.
take a day or two to read Shakespeare's King Lear. (again?)
pay attention to how those who love Lear the most suffer the cruelest consequences.
Yes, it has been a long time.
I shall read it again.
"When my dimensions are as well compact,
My mind as generous, and my shape as true,
As honest madam's issue?"
Sir McQueen,
English, especially Shakespearian, is not my first language but it is the most beautiful tongue I know.
I shall brush up on it per your request.
Another memory lapse from this morning. W was cleaning out the fridge and noticed 2 filet mignons that I had not put in a freezer yet because I bought them the other day when planning on cooking for myself. That night she came home early and ended up cooking ribs that she had prepared earlier.
That evening I showed her the steaks and corn I had bought but she changed the menu because the ribs had to be eaten.
So this morning she was puzzled that those steaks were there and asked me when had I bought them. I reminded her about the other night and how she changed the menu. She was all confused.
This is really beginning to worry me.
I'm having a beer at the bar by the harbor trying to enjoy my day. We went shopping separately. She needed stuff for her trip and asked me to pick up a small bag of dogfood because I was going to pet shop anyway. I'm done but I want to hide right now.
Between a great time last night, her confusion this morning, my desire to have a "talk" today and her leaving tomorrow I don't know how I feel right now.
I just want her to go so I can think clearly. I'm suppose to drive up to see her Tursday night. The overnight stay offer still stands. She asked me if I would stay. I said that I need to check my work schedule and also see how I feel about it. She said that it's a ling drive and that I should stay over and enjoy the next day.
It's only 90 minutes away. I think she is sincere about wanting me to stay but I just don't know how I feel about it.
This really needs to end.
your wife is on anti-depressants and boozing it up?
i know the young kids at the bar like to pop a few xanax then do shots. they are hilarious to watch.
your wife is on anti-depressants and boozing it up?
i know the young kids at the bar like to pop a few xanax then do shots. they are hilarious to watch.
I don't know that for a fact but there has been numerous times when she would be very happy and then after only a few glasses of wine turn into belligerent mess and later remembers nothing about it.
The rest of the last night went surprisingly well. We went to have dinner out and took time doing it. Had many nice conversations and then suddenly she told me all the details about her Friday's party.
She named everyone who was invited and everyone who confirmed. Turns out that it is kind of work related. There is a new boss in town and they want to get to know him. Some of the "friends" were invited to make it less informal. She seemingly spoke the truth and I have no reason to doubt that.
I just listened, knotted and told her that it was a good idea.
Now it's time to pack her car, send her off and get some yard work done.
I don't know that for a fact...
Well, I just found out. She is indeed taking antidepressants. It's anti anxiety drug which is also smoking cessation aid. That and alcohol explains a lot now.
I can't challenge her on that, but I can certainly watch out for signs when she is under the influence and act accordingly.
So W is off to her vacation. I could not find a single moment to talk about anything and it was not appropriate for me to do that today.
We were too busy packing hauling and stuffing her trunk.
She thanked me for my help, I smiled and wished her pleasant stay.
So now - no contact, no chocking up, no communications unless she initiates something.
I will drive up Tuesday to swap the dogs, whether I stay over I will decide once there.
I'll go out enjoy the day and treat myself for nice dinner.
It's been 2 hours since I sent W for her trip. Texts are already coming about how much fun our "kids" have swimming and running around. My responses have been short and sweet with an appropriate delay.
They just keep coming.
More texts about hiking and roaming around. I actually went on a long walk with my other 2 dogs yesterday too.
She also asked me to bring my own pillow with me when I come because the ones there are no good. Hmmm, I never really told her that I would stay.
Texts and e-mails keep coming. She is sending me pictures of happy dogs swimming, diggin, getting dirty - being dogs.
She asked me to bring some nice wine and fire wood for the pit she found there.
Strangely I feel genuinely happy for her. I feel that if letting her go makes her stay that way then I have achieved my first milestone. It is a creepy feeling but I feel it from my heart and it's real.
P.S. She left her happy pills home.
She also asked me to bring my own pillow with me when I come because the ones there are no good. Hmmm, I never really told her that I would stay.
She asked me to bring some nice wine and fire wood for the pit she found there.
START flirting back.
"I'll bring some fine wine and I'm packing the wood."
I'm not kidding, can't you see she wants to play?
I'm not kidding, can't you see she wants to play?
You are not kidding. The texting has been going on all day. Flirting away to no end. I was laughing so hard for a moment and did not believe that it was my W at the other end.
Seemed like I was involved in an anonymous chat room, lol.
You are not kidding. The texting has been going on all day. Flirting away to no end. I was laughing so hard for a moment and did not believe that it was my W at the other end.
Cats love to hunt. Keep the cat interested.
Cats love to hunt. Keep the cat interested.
Tell me about it. I should have learned from my single house cat instead of spending money at IC. She's got all my 4 dogs trained and they know well how to please her when she wants that.
More cat behavior to be ready for. You are having a good exchange and you are thinking Ok I'm starting to get this. The cat jumped in your lap, you are petting the cat, it's purring then it turns, bites you and jumps down. Be ready for some pullback.
I would be the one to stop the texting today. Still be ready for pullback and let her re-initiate later. Never think you have them figured out, it helps you stay interesting.
More cat behavior to be ready for.
Oh I know. Getting used to those bites and pull backs.
I would be the one to stop the texting today.
Did that many times in separate sessions. Never had the last line. The wittier I got the more she texted back. I stopped every time and let her drop multiple lines.
It was funny to watch how silly she got. She texted me the "list" of things to bring three times, every time calling it final but never changing it. I wanted to say "Got it!" but played along because that's how it got funny every time.
I'm beggining to like cats.
Just got home and looked at my cat in a slightly different way.
She only drinks out of the faucet and every time I open it she brushes herself against it and closes it. This ritual takes 4-5 tries until she starts drinking and then she jumps off leaving the faucet running.
For years I have been trying to tell her not to close it before drinking and to close it after she's done. She just won't listen.
I am beginning to get it.
Had another IC session. I am rapidly running out of things to learn there thanks to this site.
IC found it remarkable how I have understood my past failures and how I am raising above the rock bottom I hit.
This session was all about me and rather than self pity and beating myself into pulp, I explained how my own set boundaries choked the life out of my R. I fooled myself into changing 7 years ago when I had similar crisis. Instead of loosening the boundaries, I found convenient loopholes and camouflaged my own insecurities into brand new package that I tried to sell my W.
She finally figured it out and the result of it is that I never fixed the problem and while failing to do that I turned myself into completely unattractive person to her.
I really did not need to pay $$$ to tell IC that but it's only money. It bought me a compliment. IC said that I have shown remarkable strength and understanding of the issue and most wives in my situation do not have the luxury of having a H who really knows what needs to be done.
Thanks to all who have been here for me.
Men must endure
Their going hence, even as their coming hither:
Ripeness is all.
act 5, scene 2
W keeps texting again. The last line was "You can come anytime. My mom is here and she would like to see the other 2 dogs."
I am not mind reading, I am reading my cat - I am bored and want to see you, so does my mom. Period.
So off to packing and taking my trip. I will act like I am doing the business I promised, nothing more nothing less. No expectations, no disappointment.
I wonder if he burned all the wood he took?
I am back home and all the wood I took, I burned over there.
It had a wonderful start with her mom and her partner I haven't seen for months. Lake was beautiful and everyone was having a good time. We let the dogs to be dogs and went swimming, kayaking and just hanging around talking.
During the pre-dinner time things started to go wrong. My MIL and her boyfriend started bickering and been annoyed at each other. I felt bad energy coming from them and I was not going to get involved.
So, I went to burn my wood I brought. All of a sudden W came out of the house and started yelling at me for starting it TOO EARLY. I said that I wanted to get some amber going while it's still light out so we can enjoy the fire later.
Next she said that she would be staring to grill in 2 minutes. I, as a grill king decided to start it so I can clean and get it ready. W comes out again yelling that I started it too early and that she was not ready.
At this point I had enough and went back to the fire pit. Sometime in the middle of the grilling she came over to me and handed me a beer. She apologized of yelling earlier and explained why she was irritated. Apparently her mom and company were being like teenagers for the whole day and she was fed up with that.
I said that I came here to have fun and not to be reprimanded for everything I do. She apologized again and left.
We had a great dinner and her mom and company continued to annoy us both. They finally left.
At this point I had reached the limit of my patience and my mood was totally ruined. I went back to the fire pit. After cleaning the kitchen W came back outside again trying to defend her rotten behavior from before. I just could not take it anymore. I told her that this is exactly why I feel that we need to finish this R and there are only two choices left. Either we apart for good or we try to reinvent the R. This cannot go on like this one more day. She looked like a deer in headlights. I proceeded to say that if I had not been drinking and if it was still early enough I would pick up ALL the dogs and go back home where we belong with or without you. Then I got up and went to the guest room to sleep.
This morning was totally different. I got served breakfast and coffee. She was talkative. We hung out at the dock letting the dogs swim. She was going out of her way to make sure my day was enjoyable. In the early afternoon her aunt and her H came over. Apparently she never told them that I was going to be there. That is another part of the family who knows about our troubles and therefore has been shielded from me. They were genuinely glad and surprised to see me. Her aunt’s H and I had a “talk”. I was very honest about out sitch. I told him that I am done with the R and whatever happens next is my W’s choice. He is a very wise man and completely understood it.
We had a wonderful day and had dinner together at the end. I started the fire pit (yes burned it all) and packed up my stuff and the 2 dogs. W came over and gave me a hug and kiss (!!!) and thanked me for coming. I smiled and said that the pleasure was mine and drove away.
I feel good.
So the rope is laying on the ground. I will not be thinking about what happens next. The worried look in her eyes as she kissed me goodbye last night sayd a lot.
She had plenty of opportunity the first have of the day to talk to me. She didn't and I did not expect her to. She may be fearful to find out what my plans include. The next 3 days she would have plenty of time to decide between the fear of losing me or the fear of failing the R again. Little that she knows that the latter should not be scary at all. Thanks to continuing support here I am certain that I can pull that off. I have the patience and will to make it work this time. I also have the strenght to leave her should she choose that.
Earl is going to ruin her party tomorrow. It will probably be cancelled. Too bad, I actually liked the idea for her.
I have 3 days to do what I want. I will clean up the yard, clean the house, do laundry and have everything sparkling when she comes home Sunday morning.
I will enjoy the Labor Day weekend one way or another.
I will clean up the yard, clean the house, do laundry and have everything sparkling when she comes home Sunday morning.
Because..... ?
Maybe you need to have your own party and be cleaning up from it when she gets home.
Because I want to.
She is pretty sloppy person and with her around constantly creating a mess I could never catch up.
Did I say I want to?
I am already planning a party for Saturday - another reason to clean before and after.
Nothing new here. Just bumping.
Your visit over there sounded really good! I think you handled things very well.
And good for you for this attitude:
The next 3 days she would have plenty of time to decide between the fear of losing me or the fear of failing the R again. Little that she knows that the latter should not be scary at all. Thanks to continuing support here I am certain that I can pull that off. I have the patience and will to make it work this time. I also have the strenght to leave her should she choose that.
W is texting again this morning. The radio silence did not last too long. I've been ignoring it for now. I will respond in couple of hours and only answer the question.
She asked if the dogs are alright. Duh, why wouldn't they be?
Duh, why wouldn't they be?
Lose the sarcasm: it's disrespectful
I find it funny you are telling hih to initiate contact, but here you are getting a temperature check from your wife that you did not initiate:)
Duh, why wouldn't they be?
Lose the sarcasm: it's disrespectful
Of course I wouldn't actually say that.
I find it funny you are telling hih to initiate contact, but here you are getting a temperature check from your wife that you did not initiate:)
He is wrapped up in the birthday card dilemma and I thought that e-mail would be "colder" than a cute card, but not disrespectful. His W seems to be needy for attention.
But you're right. Cutting communication means exactly that.
If you haven't responded to your W yet, try something funny
"Dogs are fine. I'm teaching them to play cards.".
If you haven't responded to your W yet, try something funny
"Dogs are fine. I'm teaching them to play cards.".
LOL, they are actually reading King Lear right now.
If you haven't responded to your W yet, try something funny
"Dogs are fine. I'm teaching them to play cards.".
LOL, they are actually reading King Lear right now.
send her exactly that.
assign roles to each of the dogs get her to help
The dogs are done with Lear.
I did text her back. She went dark. I know it wasn't my humor, she is used to that. I used to torture her with Monty Python marathons.
She has guests, she is busy. I am not reading anything into it.
So I decided not to have a party. Boring faces of some of my friends just did not get me motivated. The faces are in my head and that's where I leave them.
Went out to a riverside bar. I never really liked it there because there is so much weirdness from people with MLC (my age)
trying to pick each other up. Usually it's in a night time so I felt safe to head over there in the afternoon.
While I was actively participating here on my phone, two lovely ladies sat next to me. Their pick up lines weren't so far behind.
The flirting went on for hours. While I was typing my responses here they were curious what I was doing. I told them that I am a therapist and my clients are in a constant contact with me.
That started a very interesting conversation. One of them was in the middle of divorce and another already done with it and very, very horny.
They pulled out business cards from their purses and wrote down personal cell phone numbers. They were heading over to a big party later and wondered if I wanted to tag along.
I thanked them for the cards and placed them next to my beer glass. I bought them a round of drinks, closed my tab, thanked them for the company, left the cards where I put them and left.
So I’m back here and feeling good.
The dogs will have a performance later so I have to get their wardrobe ready.
W came home this morning. Dogs were all happy to be back together.
W looked happy but tired. I smiled and said welcome back. She asked me for help to unload her car. I did.
She wasn't in a mood to talk so I did not ask anything more. It's strange - I really am not interested.
She laid down on a couch and went to sleep. I quietly left.
So here I am enjoying a sunny day and thinking about how should I feel. It's odd how this detachement business has made me numb. I don't feel anything at all. I should be feeling something. If she announces that she agrees to work on R I should feel joy. If not I should feel sadness.
But I don't feel squat. I guess it's a good thing. I can then honestly respect her choice when she is ready to give it to me.
And waiting for that moment causes me zero anxiety. How weirdly cool is that?
"It's a beautiful day
The sun is shining
I feel good
And no-one's gonna stop me now, oh yeah
It's a beautiful day
I fell good, I fell right
And no-one, no-one's gonna stop me now
Mama
Sometimes I fell so sad, so sad, so bad
But no-one's gonna stop me now, no-one
It's hopeless - so hopeless to even try"
Queen
W just called. I wasn't going to pick up first but then realized that there will be music heard in the background so I did.
She told me that she's going to see her mom for awhile and named the place where they would meet. There was a pause. I said, okay I'll see you later then and hung up.
Even if she was waiting to see if I wanted to invite myself to meet them, I do not want tobright now.
She has not spoken to her mom after my "choice speech" which happened after her mom and her friend left the lakehouse.
I wonder if W is going to look for guidance from her mommy now that I dropped the rope and threw the ball to her court.
I will catch that ball when it comes back my way.
pookie,
It is good that you have successfully detached. I wish I could say the same. I was successful not looking at the dating site that my W is on for 5 to 6 days, but was too curious today as you are well aware.
Definetly, have to focus on GAL. It is just difficult with a long holiday weekend because we would always plan to go away. Now I am sitting on the DB site and analyzing about 10 threads from the current and past to see what was successful and what failed like I would analyzing Income/Profit and Balance sheets.
I realize anger is the enemy as well as speculation. I cannot control my spouse, but I can control me and who I want to be. I am recomitting my goals ensureing that there are plans so that they are attainable. I will attempt to fully detach and let her come to me. She will have to one of these days for D or recomitting to R. Though, I am not sure if I should set a time boundary? I realize that I have value to someone out there.
Cmon HIH. Put one foot in front of the other. Yes it is a holiday weekend. Get out and enjoy it.
I'm DB'ing while watching the boats go up and down the river with some Jazz in the background.
Jealous, yes?
Doing real good pookie! Especially with feeling good with yourself regardless of the outcome, but also well done dealing with W today
Doing real good pookie! Especially with feeling good with yourself regardless of the outcome, but also well done dealing with W today
Who knows. Maybe the horny ladies come back today. It'll be even more fun.
Cmon HIH. Put one foot in front of the other. Yes it is a holiday weekend. Get out and enjoy it.
I'm DB'ing while watching the boats go up and down the river with some Jazz in the background.
Jealous, yes?
I think you're doing great too! And yes, I am jealous. I get to spend my wonderful afternoon and evening at work.
Yep, that's about right
And it's such a pretty TN day too.
Yep, that's about right
And it's such a pretty TN day too.
Greetings to the Grand Ole Opry Land from Northeast then!
Johnny Cash rules!
I failed miserably.
When W called earlier I did not really hear the place she said she was going to meet her mom. To tell you the truth, I did not care.
So was it the loud music in the background or did I just tune her out - I don't know, but it did not register.
So I headed out for dinner and ran into them both. I noticed that they saw me walking in and I panicked. I did not want to run away like a loser stalker, but I did not do the right thing either.
I walked up to their table and apologized to W for not knowing that she told me about where they were going to be. It was 6 hours past the phone call so I don't understand why I did what I did.
In any case, I apologized and left. That was sooo wroong.
I feel not only like a loser but like a stalker and that's how she may view me right now.
Pookie, bad bad bad.
Ouch! Not sure what to say, hopefully it slides somehow...
Ouch! Not sure what to say, hopefully it slides somehow...
It slid - not sure which direction.
W just came home, kinda late. I was in the middle of 9/11 special on NatGeo (yes here we go again). She played with the dogs, took them out and I went to the bathroom.
We met at the bottom of the stairs as I came out and she was carrying one dog in her arms while the rest of the pack was following her closely. She looked at me with a big smile and I asked "what's going on?". "I'm going to bed" she replied. I smiled back. She smiled even more. I asked "Anything funny?". She said "They are so cute." - meaning dogs and started going up the stairs. At the top she paused as I was still staring at her a$$ and turned around to look at me. I felt like a stupid moose in heat, but I collected myself and said "You look very cute also from this angle". She giggled and wiggled her a$$ in a way that I have never seen before and disappeared into the darkness.
Tomorrow is another day. Uhhhh.
P.S. May I add - the old Pookie would have been angry and miserable and said something disrespectful.
She giggled and wiggled her a$$ in a way that I have never seen before and disappeared into the darkness.
the old Pookie would have been angry and miserable and said something disrespectful
the new pookie is just as clueless.
She giggled and wiggled her a$$ in a way that I have never seen before and disappeared into the darkness.
the old Pookie would have been angry and miserable and said something disrespectful
the new pookie is just as clueless.
C'mon Coach, too early for that.
Pook,
When a woman giggles at you as she's heading to bed, and wiggles her ass, stop thinking and ACT.
Pook,
When a woman giggles at you as she's heading to bed, and wiggles her ass, stop thinking and ACT.
I had a headache.
Keep a bottle of tylenol (and Viagra) on hand for those moments...
Keep a bottle of tylenol (and Viagra) on hand for those moments...
Okay, Loverboy.
Any more sandwiches lately?
God I wish. Cuddling at night is "tough." Especially when it's me initiating everything. Sometimes I have no clue where we're going, but my backup plan is intact.
Especially when it's me initiating everything.
I guess you just want to repeat the beginners class.
Bonehead DB, here I come.
I am getting off this roller coaster.
Labor Day marked a new milestone and chapter.
The morning went quietly drinking coffee and playing with the dogs. Suddenly my boiler started coughing. W made a comment that it is beginning to make her nervous. I had planned to get it replaced in early spring but obviously everything came to halt since the bomb went off in April.
I agreed that it is time to replace it. This triggered hours of research online and we finally came to an agreement which unit to get. She e-mailed out some requests for pricing and I told her that we both should also use our connections in the industry to get some favors.
She mentioned that WE probably don’t have the money right now to invest. I told her that I do and that I was planning on getting it done this year anyway. She was happy to hear that.
It was early afternoon and she wanted to go somewhere outside to have lunch and enjoy the day. We headed out to our favorite outdoor place. There was a band playing and the people were enjoying the sunny day.
Suddenly she brought up the boiler replacement and said that we should put some other finishing touches on the house and see if we can sell it. That caught me off guard a little and I asked if she wanted to talk about it. She said that we don’t have to do that right now. I disagreed and said that I’ve been waiting for the response for the choices I had given her the other day. She said, okay let’s talk then.
She offered to sell the house and split the profits. She said that it is fair that way. I asked if that means that she has chosen the separation offer. She said yes.
I said, that my plan for leaving does not include any selling or splitting profits or dogs. I told her that all of that is hers, she wanted it so she can have it all. I said, I did not want this family to be broken up but I respect her wishes for me to leave and that’s all I am agreeing to do. I reminded her that I came to this country when I was 19 years old with one way ticket and $100 in my pocket. I can do it again here or elsewhere on this planet.
This is how I truly feel.
She was a little surprised and puzzled by my calm and resolute response. I decided to throw out my last line. I said, “You know that it does not have to go this way. I had another choice also which included a plan that I believe will work.” She looked down and said, “I know Pookie, I know you have been getting help and I have seen you changing. Don’t think that I have not noticed. But I cannot look at our relationship if you don’t let me go.”
Boy was that right out of this forum or what? I smiled and said, “I completely agree with you, I will let you go.”
The next 15 minutes were quiet as I turned my focus on the band that was playing. When the band took a break she asked me if I was uncomfortable and wanted to leave. I said no, I am enjoying the day and would like to continue to do so.
The next 6 hours went by so quickly as we talked, laughed and really enjoyed each other and some friendly people at the next table. To be honest this was one of the greatest times we have had. There was so much to talk about, the topics were endless. She was so beautiful, smart and funny. I did not let sadness to break me down. I was back to my old self of being funny, interesting and entertaining. We had a absolute blast.
Finally the place started emptying out. It was late and she wanted to have dinner somewhere else. We relocated to another one of our spots shared an appetizer and continued to have a good time.
We came home and I just did not feel cheery anymore. My fuel was spent. I looked at her one more time and said that I am tired and will go to bed.
As I was going to my bedroom I heard her say “Don’t you want to hang out with the dogs for awhile.” I replied, “No, thanks, but I am exhausted.”
Just as I laid down the door opens and she comes in with all of the dogs. She laid down right next to me and we played with our “kids”. I just wanted to grab her and ML as she was so close. I just could not do that. She has never come into my bedroom since I moved out of MB. It was so hard to look at her.
This morning I came down early and had a cup of coffee. She was kind of happy looking.
I smiled and told her that I had an absolute blast last night. She agreed that it was one of the best times in recent history. I said, “Thanks, that’s how I would like to remember us.” I swear I saw a lump in her throat.
I said that she should start taking my name off all the accounts and bills that are associated with the house. She looked a little puzzled but agreed. I said, “And starting today you don’t have to text me about being late as you should start living your life like if I was no longer here.”
I got up and left the room and closed the glass door behind me. I took one more look over my shoulder as all of my dogs were staring through the glass. Moments like these always break me down. Their sad and innocent faces always follow me every morning when I leave for work. I did not want to think that pretty soon I will be living somewhere else crying myself to sleep. No, not today…
I looked up and saw my W crying on the couch.
There is a happy ending to this somewhere, but I need more strength and wisdom to find it.
I am so empty right now.
Pookie,
I wouldn't be so nice about your finances. If you were the wife and she the husband, she'd owe you half of all the assets. You'll need the money eventually, trust me!
Pookie,
I wouldn't be so nice about your finances. If you were the wife and she the husband, she'd owe you half of all the assets. You'll need the money eventually, trust me!
I know. I am just so tired to think about that aspect of it.
There are so much more logistics to worry about.
What you are going to find out is whether or not you want to keep trying. My DBing efforts began to make a difference once we seperated. You just took all the pressure off her, it's both relieving and scary for her. Let her own it. Go about your business.
This helped me prepare for either outcome, The Stockdale Paradox.
In a business book by James C. Collins called Good to Great, Collins writes about a conversation he had with Stockdale regarding his coping strategy during his period in the Vietnamese POW camp.[10]
"I never lost faith in the end of the story, I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade."[11]
When Collins asked who didn't make it out of Vietnam, Stockdale replied:
"Oh, that’s easy, the optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, 'We're going to be out by Christmas.' And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they'd say, 'We're going to be out by Easter.' And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart."[11]
Stockdale then added:
"This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”[11]
Witnessing this philosophy of duality, Collins went on to describe it as the Stockdale Paradox
You can handle it.
Cheers
Thanks Coach.
I know I can handle it. A new chapter just began.
It sounds like you handled it well.
When the pressure is off, and you agree with her, you can both have a good time. I understand the-my fuel was spent-comment. I am the same way. Every time my W and I have the R talk and I agree about D and that we could not recover from the past year, we have a couple of good days. I would even say good ones. Without fail, though, she goes right back to being withdrawn and defensive about everything. I ignore her moods and carry on with the kids the best I can as if nothing was wrong.
I'm sure she is hurting. You saw her on the couch crying. It is her decision, not yours. Keep everything moving so she has to face reality.
You are doing great. Good luck.
What you are going to find out is whether or not you want to keep trying. My DBing efforts began to make a difference once we seperated. You just took all the pressure off her, it's both relieving and scary for her. Let her own it. Go about your business.
Yup. Pressure should be off now. Her own words "I cannot look at our relationship if you don't let me go".
So if she wants to "look at our R" I can't be hovering around.
She also seems to have a strange idea how she wants to proceed. Fixing up the house and trying to sell it could take another 6 months. Am I suppose to still live there?
Is she thinking that good old Pookie will come over to work on the house and spend time with the dogs periodically while she is trying to find a way to "look at our R"? Does that make any sense? She could not wait to get me to agree to move out, now she wants to stretch this further.
I'm about to tell her that I will move out of the country. (Yes, I've thought about that too)
(((pookie))) I understand being sad now, but I think you did really well.
Regarding living or not in the house, I guess you should let her feel what it will be like being on her own so that she can appreciate the times when you were there more. I would think that will let her make up her mind faster
(((pookie))) I understand being sad now, but I think you did really well.
Regarding living or not in the house, I guess you should let her feel what it will be like being on her own so that she can appreciate the times when you were there more. I would think that will let her make up her mind faster
I would like to move out as fast as possible. Unfortunately I don't have any family here to stay with. My friends all have kids and wives and I won't burden them.
So my move has to be a permanent deal.
I wish there was a temporay option (month or so) to have her have it all and see what that does.
Can you rent an apartment on short let? Or month by month lease?
Can you rent an apartment on short let? Or month by month lease?
That's what I'm going to look into first.
I can see the "I thought we can be friends" thing coming next.
I know some of you suggest being friendly bot not friends. I have no problem telling her that I have no intentions of being a friend with someone who broke apart a family for 13 years.
The question is though how much open friendly discussions should I have. Obviously I am going to continue to DB.
Do I let her know my plans (moving out when, where, etc.) when asked.
I can already see this coming.
Design a well thought out backup plan.
Anticipate the major questions, think out if you want to reply, and what you'll say.
Design a well thought out backup plan.
Anticipate the major questions, think out if you want to reply, and what you'll say.
You bet there will be questions. The very first issue I need to tackle is the @#$%^&@ boiler. I so nicely promised to pay for it. I know, I know, shoot me.
Well, it's only money. Promise is a promise, I will have to honor it.
She can send me a check after I move to Down Under.
W came home rather early. I was looking at some apartments online and paid some of my bills.
After about an hour or so she came over to me smiled and said "So where would you like to go and have dinner?"
It wasn't "I want to go out, want to come?" or "I am going..."
I was hesitating a little, but I was hungry and there was nothing around the house. I did not want to play any games with her by not agreeing.
We head another nice evening talking and laughing. At some point in the conversation she said "I know you told me not to text you when I'm going to be late but I have a client to take out this Thursday - is it okay with you?" I said "I did not tell you to stop your life - quite the opposite. I asked you to live it like I was not always around. I wanted you to stop assuming that I'm always here to take care of the house while you get last minute ideas of going out with your friends. This is exactly what I'd like to hear - you telling me now, two days before and not 5:30 Thursday evening leaving me with no choice. Now I can either tell you, fine I will be home on time or no, I have something going also so we can work on the alternate plan. That's communicating and that's what is needed while I still live here with you. That's respect and it's all good."
She smiled, thanked me and we kept enjoying the evening.
Every time I drop the rope, she picks it up and hands it back to me. She wants me to leave but the above conversation was something that we would have if we decided to work on R. I set a single boundary yesterday about a single responsibility and the respect I wanted. She understood that and complied. It was not hard at all and there was no argument.
God I wish this could continue. It was all part of my plan B to start setting boundaries and communicating about all the things we haven't been able to talk about. But I have to let her go.
It's just so confusing. Or is she already seeing this as "letting go"?
The stupid boiler was coughing again. I have to temporarily fix it this evening. I did not bring up the conversation about the new one last night nor did W.
Do I let her know my plans (moving out when, where, etc.) when asked.
Eh, you don't have to. You could be vague and say "I'm still looking for places, found a few, nothing concrete."
Oh, my advice is to check on Craigslist for month-to-month rentals or subletting.
As for the "friend" thing, I hear you loud and clear. It's amazing when your heart gets torn out that they still want to be "friends." So I am on board with everyone else here -- be friendly, not friends. There is no need to act bitter -- it does neither party any good and will make you feel worse. Act "as if."
It's amazing when your heart gets torn out that they still want to be "friends."
It is amazing indeed. I guess it is a self serving thing. "See, my ex is still friends with me, I did not hurt him that bad."
It's killing me that my W is now nicer than ever. We have had so much fun lately. It feels like dating again. We have so much to talk about and can hang for 6 hours in a row with no silence.
Before even having a 45 minute dinner was painfully long and silent.
Not too long ago she would come home only to sleep. We did not talk for days. She was totally detached, distant and had nothing to say to me.
Now when she's home she constantly pays attention to me. Interacting with our pets, doing my laundry and generally acting like all was okay.
That is all happening while she is waiting for me to move out. She is celebrating her freedom in a very strange way. Since I walk around all in smiles while still burning inside she might think that it's not all bad for me. How could they do that is beyond my understanding of human behavior.
I don't want to feel anger or resentment. I need to get out as soon as I can and go dark like I've never have been before.
Pookie,
I'm sorry that it finally came to this, but you handled everything with such style. I hope that everything else goes as smoothly as that last blow.
I agree with Ris though, she really does need to miss ya to understand what she was asking for. Sometimes the reality is just too hard to imagine clearly. It's easy to glorify the situation.
Good luck to ya,
Doodi
Thanks Doodi.
Smooth is what I want. It seems that every time I took tha advice from here and implemented it, somthing positive happened. It may all be in my head and how I see things, but the R with W has gotten better and better.
She has not lied to me at all anymore. She is totally transparent and sharing all of her thoughts and doings. I'm the one with the big secret - this place.
I need to continue the DB and it includes removing my physical presence.
You seem to be on the right path.
Pookie,
My W and I were like newly weds weeks before she left me (calm before the storm). She used Craiglist as well to find a room in WH then she dropped the bomb and left the next day.
Thanks Doodi.
Smooth is what I want. It seems that every time I took tha advice from here and implemented it, somthing positive happened. It may all be in my head and how I see things, but the R with W has gotten better and better.
She has not lied to me at all anymore. She is totally transparent and sharing all of her thoughts and doings. I'm the one with the big secret - this place.
I need to continue the DB and it includes removing my physical presence.
Work the plan. Either way you will be in a better place.
My W and I were like newly weds weeks before she left me (calm before the storm).
Why you still holding onto this? I explained why she did it.
Pookie,
My W and I were like newly weds weeks before she left me (calm before the storm). She used Craiglist as well to find a room in WH then she dropped the bomb and left the next day.
We are far from being newly weds.
I explained to W the other day that I respect her choice and although I don't want the house I understand that she needs some help to make it sellable. I said that we can discuss those details some other time. I had already offered to replace the boiler the same morning and was not going to back offf from that promise.
I also said that I want to be able to look back at all this some day and say that I did everything right and kept my integrity, respect and honor.
This was the beginning of all the fun we have had lately. She was very happy inside to hear that. The crazy woman who was running around the house taking pictures of it and thinking that I was going to burn it down the next day has crawled into a hole for good.
I see my W acting almost like normal. This is not to say that she will come back to me, but I am not pulling and I'm standing proudly out of her way.
She noticed that and that's is a fact.
Coach,
Still trying to let go. I went rock climbing with my boys yesterday and took pictures, put them on Fb. Who knows....Also, decided no acknowledgement of b-day since she has let go and I am in the process it would be counter to what I told her last week.
I had to shut the boiler off this morning because the coughing got so bad that the fumes were filling up the room.
I told W on my way out that I will temporarily fix it until we get the new one and that I will get everything I need on my way home.
I added that I would appreciate if she can come home on time so I don't have to deal with the dogs while I'm trying to work. It is really not a big deal but we both know that things get done quicker if one of us can keep them at bay.
So it was bit of a test for my comment from the other day that she has gotten a lot better being responsible for our "family".
I just received a phone call - not a short text - a phone call. Her voice was very pleasant, a lot different than usual cold, emotionless. She jokingly asked me "How big of a fit would you throw if I was a little late?". I said "My fit throwing days are far behind me. You can be as late as you need to be. We won't have any hot water until I fix the boiler and I will figure out the way to accomplish it."
I was just about to hang up when she said "I won't be late. I just had a very rough day at work and would like to have a drink with some friends. Can I have one - it'll take me an hour?"
I said, "Of course you can. Why don't you have two, one for me too." She laughed and said "That would take two hours. You know me better. When I say one it will be two, when I say two it will be four. So I say one."
I laughed back and said "Well, enjoy the one then, no rush I am already putting tool belts on the dogs. The beagle will carry the wrenches, the lhasa mix will pick up the screws, the havanese will roll in the spilled oil and the spaniel will read me King Lear while Im working."
She laughed and said "See you soon."
Some of you may disagree with this niceness of me, but I see it as a respectful compromise from both of us. I asked for it, she complied with it. She still has her space and I really don't need her here to get this job done.
No animosity, no argument, no stress, couple of laughs - attractive, yes Coach?
And, yes - I will still be moving out of here.
W came home exactly as she promised. I was already in the boiler room. She popped in and asked if she can interrupt me with dinner.
I was surprised at that because my man eyes did not see anything in the fridge that can be made into a meal.
Of course, she gathered enough stuff to concoct a meal which was nice.
I returned to work and finished it.
We watched a double run of Master Chef and I needed some dessert.
As I was eating it in the bar she kept placing one dog after another on my lap. It was distracting but cute at the same time.
She's been doing it a lot lately. It's her strange way of showing affection.
We went back to see some more of the show. The dogs were cuddling around me and she seemed somewhat annoyed by the fact that they did not pay any attention to her. I felt like saying "Maybe, if you were home more often." but I didn't. That would have served no purpose at all.
She finally got up thanked me for fixing the boiler and I thanked her for the dinner.
So I dragged my sleepy ass back in here.
Went to see my IC this morning. I don't have much to learn from him anymore.
He offered no wisdom as to why W is handing me back the rope every time I drop it. He said that based on what I have told him about her it seems very out of character for her to do that and it indicates new level of confusion.
That she likes the fact that I am taking the control of the situation and have agreed with her by validating her feelings. But the fear between losing me and falling back to dissatisfying R still causes some anxiety. She clearly enjoys my company now more than before but he warned me from becoming her "older brother".
We both agreed that I need to remove myself physically from the house. She needs a taste of what she has been brewing all this time.
Nothing new here.
pookie,
From the perspective of the LBS it will/should be an eye opener for her. Plus if you add going Dark to the mix, she will be pulling her hair out in a week or two.
pookie,
From the perspective of the LBS it will/should be an eye opener for her. Plus if you add going Dark to the mix, she will be pulling her hair out in a week or two.
The problem I will have is that she is now trying to fill up my spare time. Under the "let's get the house in shape for sale" slogan she is asking me to help. I have agreed to that, but I have not said how I'm going to help.
If I move out and go dark for awhile I may just say "I'll split the bill with you if you hire a contractor".
This, "let's do this and that" started after I told her that I may move out of the state and perhaps the country. Another words "You may lose me for good".
I don't want to mindread here but she may be trying to buy some time here.
I need to get to the point where I keep walking away and she would be following with the rope in her hand.
I have to be ready to have the "We've been having a good time. You promised you'd help with the house. Don't you want to come and see your "kids". I thought we would be friends" talk now.
I will guarantee you it will happen soon. I just have to keep checking the temperature and react accordingly.
Pook, keep it up. And be prepared.
Pook, keep it up. And be prepared.
At this point I am prepared for just about everything. There is nothing that can happen that would leave me speechless.
Humor is a shock absorber. If for some reason I find myself clueless I will go Ponty Python on her.
Coach,
You gave up on me?
Pookie69,
It may or may not happen. Just be prepared for anything.
Just act in your best interest. Do not react to situations. This could be causing some of the problems.
Keep leading in your relationship!
You will be okay. I hope the best for you!
We watched a double run of Master Chef and I needed some dessert.
As I was eating it in the bar she kept placing one dog after another on my lap.
betty crocker. lol.
i got a good one for you pookie, in the spirit of Betty and my favorite, Sir Christopher:
"if Columbus in an island of America had not caught the disease, which poisons the source of generation, and often indeed prevents generation, we should not have chocolate and cochineal"
Candide. Chapter 4.
describe the "the best of all possible worlds"
We watched a double run of Master Chef and I needed some dessert.
As I was eating it in the bar she kept placing one dog after another on my lap.
betty crocker. lol.
i got a good one for you pookie, in the spirit of Betty and my favorite, Sir Christopher:
"if Columbus in an island of America had not caught the disease, which poisons the source of generation, and often indeed prevents generation, we should not have chocolate and cochineal"
Candide. Chapter 4.
describe the "the best of all possible worlds"
A Voltaire fan also?
Coach,
You gave up on me?
Nope. First rule on my team - Never give up.
Sometimes you let players play. Sometimes you let the other coaches deal with them. Sometimes the silence does the trick. Sometimes you let them figure it out on their own. Sometimes the peer pressure from their teammates is enough. Sometimes I'm dealing with other things.
Coach,
You gave up on me?
Nope. First rule on my team - Never give up.
Sometimes you let players play. Sometimes you let the other coaches deal with them. Sometimes the silence does the trick. Sometimes you let them figure it out on their own. Sometimes the peer pressure from their teammates is enough. Sometimes I'm dealing with other things.
Game is going well. Thanks for popping in.
A bit of journaling.
W came home on time Friday. She had a lot to talk about. Mostly work and what's been happening there. I listened very closely, offered my input when and where it was appropriate.
She grabbed her phone and started reading me texts and e-mails. Some of them were irrelevant to the conversation. It was weird, like she wanted to show me transparency which I have really never asked for.
It was a nice talk. We used to have them all the time before she clammed up.
When we were done talking she asked what kind of food I would like to have for dinner and added that she would like to have something spicy. I realized a hint and offered her two choices either of which I personally am not crazy about. She smiled and picked the one I am more fond of.
We had a good time, she enjoyed her meal.
Saturday morning we talked about the boiler replacement and she gave me the name of the contractor that someone recommended to her. I asked if she wanted me to take care of calling him and arrange everything. She said "Would you?" and I agreed.
Then her mom called. For some reason W felt that she needed some privacy and stepped outside on a deck. I did not hear what they were discussing except the very end. She came back in and said to her mom "So I will see you there."
I was almost certain that she would go out with her mom but it turned out not to be the case. Minutes after the phone call she asked me if I wanted to join them or had other plans. I said that I did not have plans and I would be happy to see her mom.
We had a great time. Her mom did not bring her date and her and I had a lot of catching up to do. We did most of the talking and although W was little left out she seemed happy to see her mom and I conversing and having a good time. It turned out to be great day. I got a hug and a kiss from her mom at the end and we mutually agreed that we have missed each other a lot. I have been let back into the family inner circle.
At times it was a bit bizarre to hear W talking. She referred to everything as ours, us, we, etc. There was a lot of talk about the house and the things "we" need to do. A quite a bit of talk about the future.
At one point she brought up the fact that I had told her about my car lease being over in 8 months. She did not mention that I had brought it up with context of leaving the state and possibly the country. She asked me what I was planning on getting next. I said that 8 months is long time away and that I have not thought that far. She continued on about "we, we, we". It was weird to hear after months of "me, me, mine".
So here I am now wondering again what is happening. Is all this niceness because I'm about to drop 5K on a new boiler? I know that is not characteristic of her. But actually I really don't care. I think I'm beyond that now.
I will stay my course but will keep checking the temperature.
Well, Sunday was even more interesting.
W left in the morning to go to the store. She said that she needed to get some things. Came back with huge bags of groceries. Then she asked me to help her to clean up a bit. I realized that she is inviting people over but I did not ask any questions and she did not tell me anything.
I finished my cleaning job and went to watch TV while W was preparing stuff in the kitchen.
Soon her mother arrived and shortly after her partner.
The evening was wonderful. Everyone was in a good mood. There was no awkwardness or tension. W even joked that she does not remember when was the last time she cooked like that. I said that I have missed that alot and that her skills certainly have not rusted.
There was a lot of eye contact between W and I when everyone conversed. It felt like the days when everything was okay.
We played cards, listened to music and had a great time.
Again, I have no idea what's going on in here but I like it and I am observing it with caution.
all looks good to me pookie.
But as you said proceed with caution....
Nothing new going on.
W is happy, smiley, coming home on time, talking, calling (not texting).
She likes to "empty" herself every night by telling me everything that happened, everything she thinks and feels, what other people did, said, etc.
I have been doing active listening and found that it is not hard at all. I can see huge differences in her when she recognizes that I really am listening and I hear evrything. Sometimes that soes not require my reponse at all.
I am still on the path of moving out, but this has just been weirdly nice. Reminds me of how we were when we found each other.
P.S. had a romantic moment last night - performed heat loss caclulations for the boiler selection together.
Journaling a bit.
Nothing unusual going on right now. Fixing the heating system has taken a high priority. I took the lead and got some bids and options to review.
I brought the info home and showed it to W. She is usually very opinionated and wants to have a final say on things. She is also as savvy as I when it comes to technical stuff and engineered systems.
She looked over the stuff and questioned the more expensive option that I was favoring. I was prepared to defend my position. Sometimes it leads to a debate which often is unnecessary. But this time it was different. She listened to me and did not butt in or start to challenge my position. She offered me her opinion but quickly added “Pookie I trust your judgment and expertise.” I said, “thanks, I’ve done my homework.” She said, “I’m sure you have. I have looked into it also and I was not sure if the more expensive option has the payback value.” I replied “I think it does.” She smiled and said “well, then we should go with that.”
Big investments and decisions have never been easy. She often tries to disagree and challenge my preferences. Talking about it results in her not really listening to me and pushing her way without reasoning. I often back off just because I don’t want to argue about it.
It is almost like she has gotten some coaching how to communicate effectively. I can’t describe how pleased I am right now how we interact and communicate. All these little things together add up to almost perfect R.
But the separation is still lingering in the background. I don’t know what her behavior really means and I should not try to figure it out. Ever since I told her that she is so much pleasant to be with and how I appreciate that she treats me with respect. At the same time I complimented her for being responsible and no longer behaving selfishly.
Everything I have worked hard on including my own behavior seems to be reflecting back. I feel confident and relaxed. I feel funny and I see that she likes to be with me. I feel attraction again.
I may be all wrong, but that’s the way it works now and I can’t complain. It is a total 180 from 4 months ago.
I hate the word “hope”, so I will keep doing what works and enjoy my own self in the process.
I hate the word “hope”, so I will keep doing what works and enjoy my own self in the process.
Because hope is the wrong word, use faith instead.
Comment on the behavior she is doing you like, reinforce the goodness. Followup with actions on your part.
Comment on the behavior she is doing you like, reinforce the goodness. Followup with actions on your part.
Actions - yes.
As I said after commenting the last time, she immediately continued to do everything I said I liked. It was like she wanted to prove me wrong from the old days when I "accused" her of being disrespectful, etc.
I also see that as validation. She keeps doing what I complimented her for, so she must feel good about it. And she is getting a reaction from me.
I showed her my ultimate respect by agreeing to let her go. I validated her feelings (or lack thereof) and said that I completely understand her.
She was perplexed how I carried on from that point. Old Pookie would have crawled into fetal position and started crying for sympathy as a victim in hopes that the quilt would be attractive to her. “I’m leaving you, look at me, I’m really leaving now! Do you see? Are you sure you want me to leave? I’m so heartbroken. I don’t know how to live without you, but see, see I am finally leaving….”
Thanks to you and others here I moved on. Minding my own business, taking a lead to fix the house in which I may not even live in. I told her that I have my integrity, respect and honor firmly in place and I will do what I think is right. No other motives or expectations.
My W has never been manipulative or mean. I do not believe that her behavior is due to the expensive gift I am giving her right now – the new state of the art heating system. I believe that the most expensive gift I just gave her is her freedom. What that means to her the time will tell. There can be love in it for both of us.
I’d like to think I am on the right path. If she follows she will give me back the most expensive gift she can – a new chapter in our lives.
I may just have finally found some catnip.
No drama left in my journal.
Another nice weekend went buy. W's family member was visiting from out of state. Previously heavily shielded from me, we all went out with old friends and had a great time. Again there were a lot of laughs.
One of her childhood girlfriends came out and was flirting with me. I took a complete advantage of that and flirted back. W was kind if puzzled but smiled and looked at me alot. Seemed that I made myself attracted to her. I was funny and all the girls were laughing with me.
Sunday was quiet while recuperating from the night before. We took an afternoon nap. I joked about ML. She was not repulsed by it at all. Smiled and said that the nap right now sounds better.
I feel like I'm in a different kind of limbo now.
But I clearly see what has been working and the results of it.
Inching on.
pookie,
You may have to change your subject title. Sounds like you are on the right track, but keep on DBing for the fuuture.
Not yet. I cannot fall back to the old limbo. I made some promises and I need to live up to them. And it includes me moving out. I'm hoping that I have softened the shell enough to hear a change of mind.
Then the real work will start and I will change the thread.
Journaling.
W realized the other day that her car lease is up shotrly and started thinking about the new "toy" to get. She is into sexy power cars.
When she first brought it up on Sunday, I did not react much. I only joked that her current model is not sexy enough and that the last one before still gives me wet dreams. She laughed and asked what I was going to do with mine since my lease runs out in 7 months.
I did not want to remind her the last reference about it which was basically that once my lease is done I am free to move anywhere including to another country. I had told her that in very serious manner.
So I said that it is too far away to think about right now and that I would not know where in my life I would be at that time. I also reminded her that my priority right now is to finance the major heating system replacement as I had promised which ended up being much more than I had budgeted for.
She kept surfing around and showing me all the different models she was thinking of but none of them had all the features that she wanted in one package. It was kind of cute because she was asking for my opinion whereas she clearly did not need it. Her specifications were written in stone and there was only one manufacturer that would be able to meet it.
Last night she came home bubbly and happy. She has gone to see the dealer and test drove her next dream machine. It would have to be special ordered and apparently there is no risk to her until it arrives. I listened validated and also envied.
The burning question I had however was “How the heck are you going to pay for all this when I am no longer supporting half the common household. She is a big girl with her own money and I will not tell her what kind of car to drive, but if I was her, I would not make this kind of purchase while the separation looms over my head.
Hmm, or is she thinking that I was not serious? Is she thinking that she will turn things around for us? Is she ready to return to our lives? How can she be sure that I would just accept it? Is this her strange way to show new “commitment” by tying herself down financially to make her dependent of my share of finances?
This bizarre spiral thinking makes me wonder where she is emotionally. But you know, I really don’t care. We will soon find out.
I decided to ask her out to dinner with a tad more passion than usual. I suggested that since she had such a fun day racing around in her upcoming car, I would treat her for her favorite Indian food (which I hate). She responded, “but you don’t like that stuff.” I said, “but you do and as far as I know no one else has taken you there for a date.” All in smiles off we went.
She enjoyed her food while I was playing around with unidentifiable sauces and flushing them down with Taj Mahal.
We talked cars for awhile and then she asked me if I had stopped at the vet. I was doing shopping during a day and she asked me to pick up dog medicine from the vet. I said yes. She asked “so how much was it”. She knew the answer because I have never gone to the vet to buy anything. I said, “Close to a half of your monthly car payment.” She laughed and said “See, what you learn when you do that for a change”.
I did not realize that I just had found another thing my W did not like – me never paying for the vet bills.
So much more to learn.
pookie - I read most of your thread as you asked. You are getting a lot of great advice. early on Gucci was spot on and Coach has been chiming in the whole time with increadible insight.
I do know what you are going through and feeling. The rollercoaster is not fun. There are many similarities to what I went through. You have to decide where you want to go from here.
Your W is not sure she wants to leave, otherwise she would have gone or expedited you leaving. I suspect she thinks the grass is greener on the other side and would like to be able to test it out while still holding onto you because she now sees you really aren't that bad of an option. You can wait this out a bit and see if she comes around without being slapped with reality of life witout Pookie. It may or may not happen. I also wouldn't give her all 4 dogs...you helping grass be greener on the other side. If/when you leave, she needs to feel the loss of life as she knows it...the more the loss the better. Thats my 2 cents. In my sitch, me literally driving away with the kids in the car was powerful. W told me she just stood there and watched and cried...
The WAS is often in their own la-la land...they don't see reality...reality must smack them upside the face and then see how they react to that.
The WAS is often in their own la-la land...they don't see reality...reality must smack them upside the face and then see how they react to that
I agree with this. It's like the LBSs getting smack with the bomb, The WAS's bomb is reality setting in.
Have you started to look for other places to live??
Have you left any realtor cards lying around?
The WAS is often in their own la-la land...they don't see reality...reality must smack them upside the face and then see how they react to that.
How long do you guys think it takes for the WAS to come down from la-la land?
Have you started to look for other places to live??
Have you left any realtor cards lying around?
I did something along those lines.
First I told her after a nice evening out that I really had a good time the night before and got her to smile and agree. Then I dropped my little grenade and told her that she should start taking my name off all household bills and accounts (which she has not done as of today) and stop calling me because she needs to live like I was not there anymore.(The latter actually has had an opposite reaction. She now calls all the time to let me know when she's coming and going. Most of the time I let it roll into voicemail.)
The grenade was a bit of a shock. The loving smile about the good time a night before was replaced with tears. I walked away composed. She never saw me dropping a tear myself.
Then the same night I left my laptop open to the page for job seeking in Australia. She came home and I pretended that I got distracted by the dogs needing to go out and left the page on the screen. I saw her reading in through the window while I was out in the yard.
Next I sent her an e-mail a few days later complimenting her communications and for being so much nicer to get along. Then mentioned that I will most likely leave the country once my car lease is done in 7 months. I know it set a time frame but it is also a reality. She has no reason not to believe that I would not do that.
I know it is not as dramatic as driving away with all the pets in my car, but what has been happening in last 2 weeks has been amazing 180 from her part.
She may not have changed her mind about our R, but she shows respect and admiration for my dropping the rope. I think it is attractive to her and attraction creates warmth which just may turn things around eventually.
Time and patience in on my side. I am fully in control of myself and my actions thanks to all of you here.
Cheers
I am fully in control of myself and my actions
This is more than half the battle. Mindset!
The WAS is often in their own la-la land...they don't see reality...reality must smack them upside the face and then see how they react to that.
How long do you guys think it takes for the WAS to come down from la-la land?
The script does not say that.
I think it depends on how quickly you "let them go" and how quickly you become attractive to them again.
I had to go back in time to figure out what made my W to fall in love with me and how and who I was at that time.
As you see from my signature, I had changed and unbeknownst to myself become unattractive.
It has been 5 months since the bomb and probably close to a year from the time WAW had decided to end the R.
Someone said that it takes 1 month for every 1 year of R to repair it.
All I can say is that in my case WAW's fog has now cleared. What happens next is unkown but I decided that my next focus is on communication while using my newborn mojo to stay on top of this game.
Little drama today.
Got home a little late. Dogs were barely holding. No W in sight.
Took care of the pets and decided to text her. I said "I thought we had the mutual understanding about my expectations for you being responsible for our pets."
Seconds later phone rings. I did not pick up.
Minutes after that she pulls up. I smiled and said hi.
She went on to play with the dogs. After awhile I told her that I was hungry and will order the pizza. I really wanted to get out of the house but had no energy.
She said OK and that she was not hungry.
I decided to wait a little longer. Five minutes later she came over to the bar all cute and handed me the Spaniel. She asked if I wanted her to call in the food.
We ate and she kept looking at me the whole time. I avoided her but did not appear angry. I made some small talk and smiled and goofed a bit. I broke the tension.
She could not collect herself to say anything about my text message and I did not really want her to.
I am trying to set a simple boundary. She has been pretty good so far but I no longer tolerate any slipping. I told her that she needs to start living like I am no longer present. This is not a game. It is preparing for the reality without me. Isn't that what she wanted? Live up to that fact.
However she looked sorry and apologetic without saying anything.
Little that she knows, the R does not have to be that way.
I have complimented her good behavior but I will no longer swallow disrespect.
Cuteness is no longer a substitute for actions, but actions can be cute.
No idea. Gucci's seeting them free technique often does the trick though..
I think they probably know deep down that it isn't real, but they are so hurt/mad/upset or whatever that they supress what they really know and start thinking/acting like they are 13 again and pretend they never learned anything about life in the real world
Feel crappy this morning.
It's been a long journey to get where I am today. A lot has improved and I have kept a positive attitude for better things to come.
I don't like the feeling of enforcing my boundaries last night. Although it did not cause a conflict or even an argument of any sort, I feel dissapointed of her that I even had to do that.
But I need to stick to my script. I complimented her when she behaved well and I have to let her know when she is trying to eat the cake again and how that is no longer acceptable.
I think deep inside she knows what's right and what's wrong. Four months ago she would not simply told me to f-off and leave if I did not like something.
I need to keep my cool and DB on.
don't like the feeling of enforcing my boundaries last night. Although it did not cause a conflict or even an argument of any sort, I feel dissapointed of her that I even had to do that.
Without specifics, I can only say... that I bet she has to do that sometimes too. Every once in a while, people we love and care about can begin to take advantage of us, for example, if we allow them. It's OK to say NO sometimes, and that is enforcing a boundary
If it's a reasonable and healthy boundary, don't worry about it. It happens.
W just texted.
Completely irrelevant message of a news headline. WTF?? She never does anything that silly.
Checking my temperature, because I slipped quietly out the door thi morning.
There is no question in the text so I will not respond.
I don't care if she thinks I'm angry because I am not. So it does not matter at all.
Maybe in the afternoon I send her a stupid news headline back. Have to come up with really funny one.
Reward good behavior, do not allow bad behavior. Technique works with some WASs and brings about baby step improvements.
Although not fun, another thing that is as certain as death and taxes is that there will be bad days and there will be setbacks
Reward good behavior, do not allow bad behavior. Technique works with some WASs and brings about baby step improvements.
Although not fun, another thing that is as certain as death and taxes is that there will be bad days and there will be setbacks
It sure has worked for me. When I told her that I appreciate the respect and responsibility that she has shown, she started doing more of that.
Last night was a innocent setback. She used to come home at midnight and drunk. It was only 7pm and she was already on her way. Not a big deal at all but I had specifically told her that I am no longer tolerating of being expected to be the baby sitter day in and out without at least being notified with proper warning time. I had to voice my displeasure or it won't mean anything.
I told her that she needs to start living like I am no longer present. This is not a game. It is preparing for the reality without me. Isn't that what she wanted? Live up to that fact.
So quit talking about it. You keep rescuing her. You sound like her father = not attractive.
"I thought we had the mutual understanding about my expectations for you being responsible for our pets."
So quit talking about it. You keep rescuing her. You sound like her father = not attractive.
and do what instead? I'm tired of not having my freedom to decide what time I need to run home. If I keep doing that, she will keep eating the cake.
Decide to go home when you want. She knows what you said. You allow her to cake-eat by running home to care for the dogs. You have a choice.
I know, part of the brutal reality. Turn it around - use the dogs to spark a new arrangment/discussion about what your plan is with them? Who's going to keep when you are gone? Let her try on the BGPs.
Yup.
If this continues I have to tell her:
"W, I told you that I was going to move out to an apartment until my final plans for permanent relocation are in place. I was hoping to see you preparing to take over all the responsibilities of your life. I saw you took some steps and I was happy for it.
But it seems that your work schedule, your friends and your lifestyle is still not in tune with the responsibilities that come with the home and the pets you so clearly wanted to keep.
I have decided to rent a furnished house that allows pets and I will move there with them. I will not tolerate the neglect of our pets and this decision is not negotiable."
Rewrite it. Take out "you" and "your." Make it about what you have decided is best for you. "I have decided....." "I will ......" It can be done in two sentences. Clear and decisive.
"I have decided that instead of renting an appartment as I previously planned, I will rent a furnished house and move in there with all of our pets. I will make sure that they will be properly taken care of."
"I have decided that instead of renting an appartment as I previously planned, I will rent a furnished house and move in there with all of our pets. I will make sure that they will be properly taken care of."
Last sentence sound like you are blaming not going to help. The rest makes your point right on target.
If she asks why, "this is what is best for me."
If she asks why, "this is what is best for me."
What if she starts the guilt trip about taking the pets away from her?
Make it about her behavior.
Late
No reliable schedule
.......
Late
No reliable schedule
.......
Although they're facts, isn't that the same blaming you deleted from my other message?
now you are just giving the why when she asks
Another pleasant weekend down the history books.
Played “petrol heads” all weekend. Watched the Top Gear marathon on BBC while surfing the web researching all kinds of cars for W to pick out for her next vehicle.
Took a ride over to the dealer’s parking lot to window shop and stumbled on antique car show on our way.
W is all excited to get a new toy.
Last night after finishing dinner at a new restaurant I picked out, we moved to the bar to have a night cap. There was a lonely older woman sitting there seemingly upset and started a conversation with us. For some reason she felt that she needed to tell us about her personal issues. She whipped out her phone and started showing us pictures of her boyfriend and tell her story.
The lady apparently has relationship issues and was seeking validation of her feelings. Her boyfriend is losing interest and pulling away.
After listening for awhile I finally said to her “I will give you my opinion, if you’d like but it may sound counterintuitive.” The lady was welcoming it. Before I opened my mouth again my W cut me off and said “What he is going to tell you is that you need to back off from your boyfriend and let him go. You need to stop pursuing and doing all the things you just told us. It is not working and it never will. Let him go and you’ll see if things turn around. Nothing else will work for you.”
My jaw must have been laying on the floor. My W looked at me kicked my leg with her foot and winked. I smiled and told the lady “She is right, listen to her and then go home and do it”.
I offered nothing more, because my W took over the conversation for the next 20 minutes before it was time for us to leave.
I just kept thinking what her possible user name on these forums might be. She could be lurking here.
I actually don’t believe that but the words she used were from the “script”.
I just kept thinking what her possible user name on these forums might be. She could be lurking here.
Before I read this I was thinking the same thing.
After listening for awhile I finally said to her “I will give you my opinion, if you’d like but it may sound counterintuitive.” The lady was welcoming it. Before I opened my mouth again my W cut me off and said “What he is going to tell you is that you need to back off from your boyfriend and let him go. You need to stop pursuing and doing all the things you just told us. It is not working and it never will. Let him go and you’ll see if things turn around. Nothing else will work for you.”
My jaw must have been laying on the floor. My W looked at me kicked my leg with her foot and winked.
Hi Mrs Pookie.
I hope you see how much he values, cherishes, appreciates and loves you. More importantly the value he sees in himself.
Cheers
he calls me Boo-Boo and i call him Pookie...
For all I know it could be a new Greek in the making here.
I hope you see how much he values, cherishes, appreciates and loves you. More importantly the value he sees in himself.
I changed the battery in my sarcasm meter and ran your post through it again.
I think your gun misfired this time. I have absolutely mo reason to believe that her kick/wink was anything other than her way of telling me that she has noticed my efforts of validating her and she is greatful for it.
This was not sarcastic punch but a sincere message to me that what I've been doing works.
You preach that WAW needs to find her feelings again.
I've been pretty cool, funny and attractive and I see how she wants to spend a lot of quality time with me. I am not dillusional.
I see daily progress. I am not jumping up and down because I'm patient and we are not yet where we need to be.
Thanks to you and others here I'm on the right tracks.
Prosit.
You preach that WAW needs to find her feelings again.
I've been pretty cool, funny and attractive and I see how she wants to spend a lot of quality time with me. I am not dillusional.
I see daily progress. I am not jumping up and down because I'm patient and we are not yet where we need to be.
Thanks to you and others here I'm on the right tracks.
W W O RRRRR DDDD !
W W W O O R R D D !
W W W O O RRRRR D D !
W W W O O R R D D
WWW WWW O R R DDDDD !
I made a nice thing and it posted crappy
Huh?
I'm on the phone so I can't see the "big picture".
I made a nice thing and it posted crappy
I hate when that happens.
W texted and said she will have a drink with her boss to discuss new policies in the office.
I responded - I don't want to go out later for dinner so I will cook tonight. The choice is yours.
She responded - I have no idea what I want to eat.
I replied - I did not ask you what you want to eat ;-) I gave you the choice to eat what I make or eat out :-).
She replied - Perfect!!!
My money is on her coming home, eat and thank me for it.
I will be honest and post if it'll be anything different.
Thanked three times. Twice last night and once this morning.
Have to start working on more excitement.
So what'd you make for dinner?
So what'd you make for dinner?
Veal Francese.
The significance of this seemingly insignificant episode is the fact that after the bomb she stopped making dinners. Before I did 100% of shopping and 50% of cooking.
She is an excellent chef and I miss her meals. I stopped everything too as a part of my 180.
Now since we have been going on dinner dates almost every day, I figured that putting a more personal touch on the dinner plate will lure her back to cook sometimes.
I realize that eating out is much more convenient for 2 people and she prefers to cook when we have quests. I also know that she wants to put love into making the meals.
So we'll see.
Just another little element...
I suggest a picnic dinner, with plenty of sandwiches...
I suggest a picnic dinner, with plenty of sandwiches...
I'm drooling....
I suggest a picnic dinner, with plenty of sandwiches...
I'm drooling....
make it a goal
it works
Sharing some witty moments from today.
W decided that today was a texting day. (she was bored)
W: How much do you want to spend on ____'s new baby? (baby shower coming up on Sunday)
Me: I did not know he is selling it already.
W: LMAO. Seriously. I'll chip in $100, you?
Me: Double that bet.
W: Shower is on Sunday at noon.
(No question, no reply.
Hour later.
W: Look up Youtube for _____ video.
I did - it was really funny stuff with dogs.
Me: Ours are funnier. You should have seen them the night I made them act out King Lear.
W: LOL, I missed it didn't I?
Me: Yup.
Hours later.
W: I am still at mom's. Finished painting her living room.
Me: Sorry to hear that. Are you watching it dry? I am having a drink with two gorgeous blonds. (I was not lying)
W: $hit, can you go home for the dogs?
Me: That's not the name I gave the blonds.
W: You are really funny today.
Me: I am funny every day. You just have missed out on the opportunity to see it.
W: LOL
$hit, she just walked in. Gotta go.
