pdt,
i would appreciate your take on my sitch.
i've been doing some work on myself.
i am taking care of myself, i exercise, GAL-ed.
i don't know how to look at my sitch and get insight.
my jekyll and hyde phase was short lived.
i had contemplated filing myself but was told to hold off.
my l recently sent a response to my h regarding his financials. the contents of the response will require him to confront his fears.
i know that this will prompt him to file - if he already hasn't.
my intel says no OW. but my mind tends to think the worst.
i guess the advice i am looking for is ..
if my h didn't leave me for his parents. then what did he leave me for?
without knowing what i did, it's hard for me to do a 180.
if i was too independent, then being strong now .. is that a bad thing?
there's a lot of great advice for the guys who are the lbs but not much for the ladies who are lbs.
i have no kids. and we don't have any daily interaction.
am i really fooling myself into thinking this can be saved?
the division of stuff has really torn us apart.
the d-bomb itself didn't hurt as much as splitting our stuff.
mostly because it seemed like my h valued the things in the house more than me (a human being).
the separation agreement continues to drive a wedge between us. even though i haven't asked for anything - not even spousal support.
he went into the legal battle ready for a huge fight - he thought i was going to be this vindictive b*tch.
i just stood by and watched him throw a temper tantrum like a child. i let him make his own rules, no matter how ridiculous. if he feels better afterwards, then great. i know if it was me, winning stuff wasn't going to make me feel better.
the show isn't over yet. but it hurts to watch someone fight so hard for stuff that isn't worth fighting over.
why does he hate me so much?
i am asking you, pdt because you've been on the boards for a while. you've seen it all. i'm not calling my sitch unique. i just can't connect the dots and find advice that i can apply.
thanks in advance.
MIL,
To give you a fair and thorough answer, I'd have to go back and read your entire sitch. To be honest, I'm not sure I have that kind of time. If I remember, though, you've had some real vets on your threads -- Coach, Greek, Sandi and others -- what has been the consensus of what they've told you you should do?
"Left me for his parents" -- that would be a new one on me!
Puppy
from what i can recall ..
work on myself. i have a 30 day plan to focus on myself. GAL, go dark, if i can't avoid it, stand up straight and smile.
greek suggests that if i don't want to hunker down in fear wondering whether today is the day i get served, then go file. i think she also told me that if my h isn't going to cut the apron strings then i am better off without him.
forrest suggests that i let him file.
the vets have been really good at getting me to open up about my contribution to the breakdown.
trying to fix my mind reading, catastrophsizing (sp?), and stop doing what doesn't work.
i've even discussed why the gold digger comment is such a sore spot for me.
i've discussed why intimacy was an issue for me.
discussing these things are great. but how does that help me now?
i can't show him that i'm working on my intimacy issues.
i can't give away the farm in the separation agreement to show i'm not what he thinks i am.
how does one do the work to fix these issues without being a doormat or promiscuous?
i feel that my thinking of the worst makes me feel pessimistic.
i don't understand how one week turned me into enemy #1.
i feel like i'm wasting my time working on me.
i could GAL until the cows come home, i could look like a supermodel, i would be sweet as pie .. and nothing would change.
i guess i feel stuck. my 30 day plan is almost up.
i know we've talked at length about dropping the rope.
i'll tell you why i am hesitant about dropping the rope in my sitch.
my h has rarely made a decision on his own. and it bugs the heck out of me. if there is anything that is unattractive about a man, it's indecisiveness. it shows lack of self-confidence.
my h called me up while i was out of town to say he was having agents to come over to look at the house and prep it for selling. it was likely a dig at me but ok. i said you find an agent, i'll go find an agent .. we interview both and go from there.
after we interview our agents, i asked him 'ok, so which agent should we go with?'
he says "it's up to you. it doesn't matter to me."
when we were selling our home, two offers for the same amount came in. we had to decide which one to take. my h looks at me and says "which one do you think we should go with?"
he pushed to sell the house. and now when an offer comes in and we have to decide, he pushes that decision on to me? i said, i know what i think but i want to know what you think. he says it doesn't matter whatever you want.
whatever i want?! i didn't even want to sell the house.
we played squash together recently and he voiced his displeasure about one of the guys in our foursome. so i said, do you want to play with me or against me? and again, he looks away/looks to the ground and says "it doesn't matter, it's up to you".
can you make a friggin' decision? it's not life or death.
it's like he avoids making decisions so he can blame others.
so if i drop the rope, he'll say we d-ed because dumped let go and dumped made me do it.
is my analysis really off? text is pretty bad - i'm really calm right now.
so if i drop the rope, he'll say we d-ed because dumped let go and dumped made me do it.
Or, it may just work.
Is what you're doing NOW working??
Puppy
it depends. i feel confident about myself.
i'm too busy focusing on me that i don't really put too much thought into whether it is working or not.
when i chose things to do for GAL, i picked:
- squash. it got my adrenaline going. exercise was key to lifting my spirits. my goal was to become a better player. i want someone to say "she's a good player".
- baking. i love to cook but baking was something i shied away from. my h would often make me feel stupid when we baked anything. and i was always the helper. so i took a baking class and i learned how to decorate cakes. the instructor said i have good skills.
- when i'm not playing squash, i find different ways to work my muscles. i did a stairs workout last week, this week, i hit the gym.
- i am registering for a leadership course in the fall. it's 11 weeks long. this would be for professional development.
as you can see, these things are for me. they aren't for anybody else. and i don't think about whether my h sees me doing these things or not.
i understand that db-ing is about saving yourself. but i'm more of doing things for myself in case the d goes through. i have to look after me. so anything to make me a better/interesting person, or anything that will increase my income, is what i chose to do for my GAL.
is that a bad approach to GAL?
my GAL activities have had some positive side effects.
i've become a very popular girl.
at squash, i have made a lot of new male friends. majority of the time, i play with the guys. the guys do drills with me. so it's been interesting. and yes, h is a member of the same club.
at work, i share my baking with my co-workers so i'm popular that way too.
so even though all these things have done wonders for my confidence. it won't lessen the sting when the papers are served.
has any of this improved my communication or interaction with my h? not really.
we're physically separated so there is no interaction, no texting, no calling, no emailing, no IM (i don't log on to my IMs anymore). we both stopped wearing our rings.
when i started at the squash club, my h would pack up and leave as soon as i arrived. now he doesn't.
he doesn't avoid playing with me. he doesn't avoid talking to me.
some of my friends don't understand why i would talk to him. he's been ruthless in the settlement so far. it is very strange. it's like why would you continue to talk to someone who treats you like crap?
to be honest, i don't know how i should act. initially, i ignored him. and that didn't working out so well. it made my friends feel awkward - they knew us when were still m. so i decided to just keep things casual. i don't want to make people uncomfortable around us. nobody wants to get dragged into our business. and this isn't high school.
he didn't attend squash all of last week. which was odd of him. he had put on weight and if i know him, he's obsessed with keeping in shape. i'd come home from squash and he'd be at home.
when i freaked out about the mini-bomb this week, i realize why he avoided squash. my l launched a grenade in his direction - he's being asked to confront his fears. i have called one of his accounts into question. and requested for documentation. he is going to have to jump through hoops to get documentation. so he's furious that i've called him on it. he was hoping i wouldn't but my l picked it up in his financial statement.
my guess is that he thinks i'm being vindictive, petty, whatever about it. not letting him have his way, etc. so he's mad at me for it.
it feels like when you've made small steps towards civility, you get one blow and you're not at square one but beyond square one. i think that's my frustration.
why would you think dropping the rope would work in my sitch?
esp if i know that he's indecisive and tends to deflect the blame on to me.
you and gucci don't believe he left me for his parents.
but all he does now is call his parents, take vacations with his parents, flies home to see his parents.
he calls them every day. anything that he is unsure of, he calls them. it got worse and worse as the months went on.
did he leave me for them? i don't know what else to believe - hence me asking why you or gucci disagree. i'm not looking for a debate. i'm just looking for another perspective.
when gucci just say i have my view, you have yours. it doesn't help me in any way.
MIL,
I think dropping the rope might work because it appears to be the one thing you haven't truly tried yet.
And because it's almost always effective.
Humans, after you strip away all of our mumbo-jumbo and fancy phrases, utilize a very primitive push-pull relationship dynamic. I'm willing to bet anything that your husband still feels your "pull."
He may or may not respond if you drop the rope; there are no guarantees. But it will NOT work, if you DON'T.
Puppy
Humans, after you strip away all of our mumbo-jumbo and fancy phrases, utilize a very primitive push-pull relationship dynamic. I'm willing to bet anything that your husband still feels your "pull."
i've described the "work" that i've been doing.
would you change any of it? if he still feels the pull, where in my "work" is that coming from so i can tweak things?
in my head, none of my activities involve him so i feel like i've dropped the rope and i may not see where the 'pull' is coming from.
i think the ongoing separation agreement is what's hurting me. i have no control over that - it's being handled by l and i never talk about that.
I would have to go back and look at your threads, MIL. Just a general impression I was left with.
Puppy
i wasn't suggesting that you read my threads.
just based on what i have been doing - based on this thread.
i just don't know if there is more that i need to do.
fyi - we bought separate houses already. we are headed in separate directions.
i've been reading other posts and the advice in general usually says a man needs to show emotional strength in a time of crisis.
my h walked away but couldn't plan his move by himself. he flew his mother out to help him (he barely lifted finger) and he also hired packers to pack for him.
i packed on my own and hired my own movers. i arranged it on my own.
when h dropped the d-bomb, he said one of our differences was that he felt that he was "dragging me through his life". i guess he was saying that i was boring.
well, look at us now. h comes home after work, calls mom and dad to tell them how his day went, and then sits there and watches tv. he's let himself go. he hasn't been to squash for over a three weeks now. and no, not because of OW. my intel says no. he stays in his apartment all weekend and doesn't have a life. the interior of his car is also a mess too - costco coupons, costco receipts, gas receipts, bank receipts, liquor store receipts, crumpled up saran wrap from his mom's baking, granola bar wrappers.
you know how they say the lbs is better off? hell ya!
i feel like i've done more. i'm looking forward to doing more in the next few months. i've signed up for a leadership course for my professional development.
gucci, pdt - could you give me some pointers on what makes a woman attractive to any man? there's a lot of advice about what makes a man attractive or unattractive. but what about for a woman?
gucci, pdt - could you give me some pointers on what makes a woman attractive to any man? there's a lot of advice about what makes a man attractive or unattractive. but what about for a woman?
We had a thread a short while ago that was on that topic..
For me.. It is LOOKS first and foremost....
"There is something about her"............When I can't put my finger on it, but just know that I know that I know that she is sexy and has me intrigued.
If I don't like the way they first look then she is toast. Nothing she can do will ever make me love her UNLESS she is fat or overweight and is still my type in the looks dept, but loses the weight.
I am NOT attracted to b*tchy women. Don't know where you women get that idea, but it is NOT true in my case or in too many of the men I have known in life. HOWEVER, IF the b*tchy woman IS also a very hot good looking woman, THEN she has a chance. It is NOT her b*tchy attitude that attracts me, but her LOOKS.. Looks can override the attitude early on in a relationship..
I also like a woman who laughs at my jokes, who is a happy person, who is neat and clean and dresses nicely. Smells good on a date.
That is some of what attracts me to women.
It's all about the looks-to-aggravation ratio, LOL. If she's drop-dead gorgeous, we put up with a lot more than if they're not.
To me, it is:
-- Face (looks)
-- attitude. I like a playful/flirty/confident woman.
-- body.
-- Purpose; she has her own passions and interests outside of me, and they are causes that I can admire.
-- Is into me. Genuinely asks about my work, my family, my passions, my interests.
When all else fails, "looks really good in 4" pumps" is always good, but then I guess that's pretty much covered by the 1st and 3rd bullet points.
It's all about the looks-to-aggravation ratio, LOL. If she's drop-dead gorgeous, we put up with a lot more than if they're not.
YEP
For me.. It is LOOKS first and foremost....
men are more visual?
If I don't like the way they first look then she is toast. Nothing she can do will ever make me love her UNLESS she is fat or overweight and is still my type in the looks dept, but loses the weight.
can you expand a bit?
i know looks are critical. but almost everything can be changed nowadays - not just the fat. hair can be coloured, a nose can be altered, teeth can be whitened, the girls can be enhanced, etc.
I am NOT attracted to b*tchy women. Don't know where you women get that idea, but it is NOT true in my case or in too many of the men I have known in life.
define b*tchy. some people think strong and independent .. the "i don't need you to open the door for me, i can open the door myself thank you very much" attitude is b*tchy as opposed to independent.
i think i have the most difficulty adjusting this part. what i think of as independent, may be coming across as b*tchy.
HOWEVER, IF the b*tchy woman IS also a very hot good looking woman, THEN she has a chance. It is NOT her b*tchy attitude that attracts me, but her LOOKS.. Looks can override the attitude early on in a relationship..
yes, i believe it. one night stand material. not marriage/long-term material.
looks can only do so much to hold your attention. sooner or later, you have to talk to the person.
I also like a woman who laughs at my jokes, who is a happy person, who is neat and clean and dresses nicely. Smells good on a date.
check - on all fronts. scent is pretty subjective. but i hear you on the smells good on a date. for me, smells good, period is a must - just good hygiene.
It's all about the looks-to-aggravation ratio, LOL. If she's drop-dead gorgeous, we put up with a lot more than if they're not.
LOL. i've never heard that before but i get it.
-- Purpose; she has her own passions and interests outside of me, and they are causes that I can admire.
i think this is tough sometimes ...
-- Is into me. Genuinely asks about my work, my family, my passions, my interests.
check.
the reason why i ask is .. i've been doing a lot of work on myself. i am preparing for life with or without h. i want to put my best person forward. but at the same time, i have expectations too.
i'm a good dresser. i wear the 4" pumps. i do the makeup, perfume, skin care thing. i exercise.
i have worked on myself to get into shape, found hobbies/interests that i enjoy, i do whatever it takes to take care of myself financially. i have a good head on my shoulders.
i have expectations of the person i want to be with as well. i expect the other person to keep up or be similar (not the heels!). is that considered to be 'b*tchy'?
If I could add some good advice I was once given be a co-worker.
One day at lunch a very attractive woman, who we both knew was D, came into the shop.
He goes to me: "Man, look at that, she's so hot" and I said "oh yeah"
He then says "Even though she totally hot, some guy out there got tired of f**king her"
So just because your hot, if that's all you have the offer that's all you'll be to someone.
So just because your hot, if that's all you have the offer that's all you'll be to someone.
agreed.
my original question was what makes a woman attractive?
didn't necessarily mean only from a physical standpoint. but the guys made a point to me that men are visual creatures. but let's look at long term .. after the looks fade.
that's why post after post, i ask what is defined as 'b*tchy'?
i mean, looks are very subjective .. what you think is hot, may not be hot to someone else. what you think is a great scent, may not be for someone else.
i take care of myself for me. i want to put my best person forward. not just in my appearance, but in attitude.
as i have said, you can change almost anything in the looks department. but who you are as a person, core values .. don't change.
OK, so after the appearance thing here's what attracts me to a W.
here's ten
1) not worrying about what other people think about her
2) she knows where she's come from and knows where she would to be.
3) she accepts me for who I am.
4) doesn't get upset when things goes wrong. How she responds to it is important.
5)knows how to have fun with or with out me, needs her cirle of friends too.
6) can interact with my friends and not just sit there asking when are we leaving.
7) Honest and trust worthy, I want her to feel secure enough that when I go out, even though OW will be attracted to me, she has nothing to worry about. I expect the same in return.
8) Has a strong family values that won't be compromised.
9)Has a positive outlook on life and daily life.
10)is active, likes the outdoors and physical activities together
would it be unfair if the person expected the same of you?
let's say a person is all of these things and a bowl of ice cream. does it put the pressure on the other person to do/be the same?
when you want these things in a person, it puts pressure on you to hold yourself to that calibre. and in the end, nobody will approach you .. thinking that you are not in their league. you end up lonely anyway.
not saying that i am all that and a bowl of ice cream. i'm still working on me.
would it be unfair if the person expected the same of you?
Absolutely not. those are my values and what I will give to my partner.
I understand no one will be perfect.
does it put the pressure on the other person to do/be the same
This wouldn't work b/c that's not who person is.
I'm not trying to be something I'm not. I know who I am, I know what I'm looking for and I am understanding that no one is perfect. Choose the values that are most important to you and I'm sure you will find someone.
nobody will approach you .. thinking that you are not in their league. you end up lonely anyway.
What I described, women wouldn't know that until we went out a few times.
Some times I go out by myself for a bite to eat and watch a game. I mind my business but I'm friendly to whomever sit near me, men or women. It's just my nature to be friendly. I am a very approachable person, maybe women feel I'm not but that's not me. They must have a confidence issue.
Nothing ventured nothing gained. Yo ucan sit back and wait for something or you can be proactive.
Let me add one more thing.
Confidence is attractive for both men and women. Cockiness is not. Their is a fine line between the two but you'll know the difference when your faced with it.
That was part of my first point- not caring what others think about how they should be.
You have to feel good about yourself if you want someone else to care for you.
This is why they say it here so much.
gucci, pdt - could you give me some pointers on what makes a woman attractive to any man? there's a lot of advice about what makes a man attractive or unattractive. but what about for a woman?
In general, physical appearance are what initially attracts. As time goes on other traits.....
I suggest reading these books, in this order:
Flirting Why men marry "Assertive" Women Seduction
it's that fine line between confidence and cockiness that is tough.
so far, the advice gives me enough to go on.
much of this has to come across naturally and not forced.
and if that is who you are, it will come across naturally.
i'm working on my confidence. it doesn't matter how i look, the lack of confidence would kill the appearance.
btw, a little mystery doesn't hurt either, right?
btw, a little mystery doesn't hurt either, right?
Now you're adding the X factor. Works well, It makes us men say "There's something about her that I can't quite figure out"
why would you think dropping the rope would work in my sitch?
esp if i know that he's indecisive and tends to deflect the blame on to me.
It's not about dropping the rope so the WAS comes back. It can have that affect, but if you do it for that reason then you're just using another manipulation/control technique.
Dropping the rope is something which an emotionally healthy individual does when faced with a R with someone who does not want to be with them. People aren't possessions. They aren't ours to push and control in one direction or another. One of the common threads I see on this board is most of us are codependent and have an unhealthy and distorted sense of R. I once created a post asking how many people came from alcoholic homes and quickly got quite a few responses.
Dropping the rope is healthy for YOU. When you use it as a tactic to get something you want it will probably backfire. Just my opinion based on my own experience with attempting to control people/places/things.
you and gucci don't believe he left me for his parents.
but all he does now is call his parents, take vacations with his parents, flies home to see his parents.
he calls them every day. anything that he is unsure of, he calls them. it got worse and worse as the months went on.
did he leave me for them? i don't know what else to believe - hence me asking why you or gucci disagree. i'm not looking for a debate. i'm just looking for another perspective.
I have a different perspective. He jumped from one caregiver/decision maker to another. Based on the information you wrote above it seems your husband relied on you to make the decisions. You grew to resent this. When you were no longer his decision maker he went back to the source of his problem - his original decision makers...probably his mommy.
I imagine his mother has control issues and if she's anything like my mom was, she has a my way or the highway kind of mentality. No matter what he did there was criticism. It got to the point where it was just safer and easier to just let her make the decisions for him. So now she's playing her role, and he's playing his. His original definition of 'Love'.
I would also imagine you have a control issue also. Let me backfill you on my dynamics with my W. My dad was very laid back to the point where he didn't like conflict. My mom had the 'if only people did things my way' the world would be just fine mentality - albeit subconsciously. She would never admit this nor do I think she could actually see it.
My mother was the decision maker. As long as you did what was in line with what she thought was right all was good. When you didn't, you'd get hit with passive aggressive treatment. Silent treatment, attitude, etc... After a few days she would act like everything was just fine. Nothing was ever dealt with. She was very critical and it didn't matter how much good you did she would always zero in on the 'bad'. She once told me when I was making some big internal improvements - "You're doing ok. You're at about 80%"...lol. 80% of what??
When my parents would argue my mom would be the more aggressive one and my dad would retreat to the basement and drink. Grinding his teeth and mumbling under his breath. He was a great guy and everyone loved him but he didn't have a healthy and clear definition of self respect.
Fast forward some decades later and I married a woman who was just like my mother. At first the playing field was level. Over time my W's control issues, her 'she can do no wrong and I could do no right' issue eroded my self respect and self worth.
It was just easier not to fight back. Of course this created a hug rift and resentment from both sides. My W also hyper-critical and she also focused on the parts that were not done the way she thought they should be. Her mother was/is the same exact way. We learn our patterns from our parents. Those patterns stick until we see them and change them - if that's what we decide to do.
One day I realized I was just like my dad. I decided to change that. When I started standing up for myself things got worse. The more I pushed the harder she pushed back. I can clearly see our issues together were like throwing gasoline on a fire.
When I read your post above where you talk about catastrophizing - our first therapist told my W she was a catastrophizer. Of course after that we stopped going to her. My W is incapable at this point in her life of looking at and accepting her issues which contributed to the erosion of our M.
One thing that I remember saying over and over in my M was this - "Can't we go more than a week or two without you finding something to criticize about me?"
You're looking for definitions - what makes a woman attractive, what's the line between confident and bitchy, etc...
Take a closer look at your R dynamics. A brutally honest assessment. Be careful of rationalizations - "I did it that way because he....."; filter those out. When you can do that you'll see the answers to some of your questions.
I'll give you an example: My H never makes decisions. I hate that in him. "I make all the decisions because he...." Is it possible there was a time when he did make decisions? When he did, they weren't the 'right' decisions based on what you thought should be done, the criticism was delivered, his low self image took a hit, he felt like cr@p, got to the point where it was just easier to defer to you rather than feel that feeling of being small and inadequate (I'm not talking about his Johnson here).
Just my dollar fifty. (post is way too long to only be called 2 cents)
steady,
that was $50 well spent.
i think in a healthy relationship, there is some level of codependency and control. otherwise, two people shouldn't be together. it is when the codependency and control takes over the relationship, then that becomes unhealthy.
i was quite careful about exerting control and codependency. i worked mainly on myself - controling my own spending, putting my m and h first, etc. then i let my personal/deeper issues get the best of me and it ruined my m.
so i know how i contributed to the breakdown of my m. i've been here long enough and worked with the vets on that part.
i don't know if you can say that allowing someone else to be the decision maker and you be the follower is a definition of love. where is the love reciprocated in that?
anyway, i've done a bit of work on my own sitch and self-reflection on what has happened. i just wanted to know what i would need to work on to attract someone in the dating world. i've never been in the dating pool before so this is new to me and i'm in my late thirties.
thanks for your response though.
Dumped,
Once I found out my W went away n vacation and "hooked" up with someone I decided I would no longer accept her back. That was/and is a deal breaker for me. Infidelity is black/white for me.
Anyway, a friend suggested I join a dating website, I was reluncted(?) at first but a month later I did. I went out with 3 women. One I conracted and two whom contacted me.
The one I contacted didn't make eye contact with me so I chose not to see her again. Maybe she was nervous but that showed me a lack of confidence.
Now the two who contacted me, one was 34 and the other 49, I'm 39. Both very attractive (to me, :)). The younger W was agressive, I enjoyed that, she had confidence and wasn't imbarrassed to talk about ANYTHING.
The older W made me laugh and was out going too. I choose to see again bacause she was naturally a nice person and understood the dynamics of a relationship.
So I wouldn't worry about being on your late thirties, that has nothing to do with it.
Be happy for who you are. Ignore the criticism and you will do just fine.
Did you listen to the link in my tagline???
It helps me.
Strong men are men of much ACTION, and very few WORDS. And it is a tenet of DB to not TALK about your changes, but to live them out, quietly and confidently, in front of the runaway spouse....She's not looking for a chick best friend -- she's looking for a husband who will make a strong, principled stand to fight for his marriage, in my opinion.
i actually wanted to know the reverse of this. instead of asking what makes a woman attractive to a man .. this is the question that has been weighing on my mind.
the runaway wife wants a husband who will make a strong, principled stand to fight for his marriage. how does a man fight for his marriage yet still be detached?
what does the runaway husband want from his wife? there is a lot of advice to the men about showing emotional strength and standing up for his marriage. but the only advice i've seen to lbw is to stop whining, let go, and show him the door.
it just seems like the husbands are sending the message of "i'm not giving up on you".
and the left behind wives are saying "just leave, if that's what you want."
i've read more threads about how the men are getting their runaway wives to turn around. and nothing on the wives getting their runaway husbands to turn around.
why is that?
the runaway wife wants a husband who will make a strong, principled stand to fight for his marriage. how does a man fight for his marriage yet still be detached?
Actually this is not true. That isn't what reality says.
The runaway wife RUNS from men who stand and fight for their marriage. Or haven't you been observing and analyzing the men on this site. Those who do the most fighting "for" it are the least likely to succeed. It is those who "let the woman" go and STOP fighting for it that see her finally come around.
Until you can understand a very basic human principle you are going to forever trying to find some magic way to get him back..
That principle is that you should be REJECTING a man who doesn't treat you right and walks away from you. This is the same for men as it is for women. It shows low self esteem to keep trying to get a person to come back to you that says and shows they want out.
THAT type of self esteem is what is POSSIBLY the beginning of getting them back. START THERE... Instead of asking us things like you keep asking, you should be sayin "I don't want to be with ANY man who doesn't want me and show me he wants me"..
That is your key. Other things are just smoke and mirrors. It won't win him back if you can't reject his actions with an attitude of "I can and will do better." AND THEN FOLLOW UP AND DO JUST THAT
the runaway wife wants a husband who will make a strong, principled stand to fight for his marriage. how does a man fight for his marriage yet still be detached?
Actually this is not true. That isn't what reality says.
The runaway wife RUNS from men who stand and fight for their marriage. Or haven't you been observing and analyzing the men on this site. Those who do the most fighting "for" it are the least likely to succeed. It is those who "let the woman" go and STOP fighting for it that see her finally come around.
I disagree ... somewhat. FWAWs speak often of wanting their passive husbands to have FOUGHT for them, instead of rolling over. "How important could I BE to him, if he's not willing to fight for me?" they say.
I do believe that your basic "push/pull" dynamic is a universal truth, and it WORKS, however.
I advocate a version of Harley's "Plan A/Plan B" approach, where you FIRST stand and fight for the marriage, including aggressively fighting to bust any affairs, and THEN -- when you've had enough -- you do the "Letting go" thing, possibly even filing for divorce.
No two people are alike in how long they can "hold out," and different wayward spouses are going to react differently to how long they perceive "holding out" as just your fear and passivity, and lot of it depends on how you carry yourself thru the whole thing. For me, it was less than 2 months between discovery of my wife's affair and letting her go, but I spent that two months VERY MUCH fighting for my marriage and my family, with everything I had.
Puppy
steady,
that was $50 well spent.
i think in a healthy relationship, there is some level of codependency and control. otherwise, two people shouldn't be together. it is when the codependency and control takes over the relationship, then that becomes unhealthy.
There may be a confusion between interdependent and codependent. I don't think trying to exert control over someone else has any place in a healthy adult relationship.
It's one thing to give your input and then accept the person may not follow your advice/input. It's another thing to 'punish' someone for not doing it. A healthy adult knows how to agree to disagree.
i was quite careful about exerting control and codependency. i worked mainly on myself - controling my own spending, putting my m and h first, etc. then i let my personal/deeper issues get the best of me and it ruined my m.
Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean putting your H and M first in front of your own mental and emotional health?
so i know how i contributed to the breakdown of my m. i've been here long enough and worked with the vets on that part.
i don't know if you can say that allowing someone else to be the decision maker and you be the follower is a definition of love. where is the love reciprocated in that?
I don't think that's what I said at all. I'm wondering how you came to that conclusion based on what I wrote.
anyway, i've done a bit of work on my own sitch and self-reflection on what has happened. i just wanted to know what i would need to work on to attract someone in the dating world. i've never been in the dating pool before so this is new to me and i'm in my late thirties.
thanks for your response though.
I'll tell you what you need to do. You need to make yourself an independent, healthy, happy, self-fulfilled woman with a life you enjoy. When you get that down you'll attract a man who will share that with you. When you're there, you won't have to 'become' something else in order to attract someone. You will be attractive. Period.
I'm in my mid forties and that's what I'm focusing on. Get your inner life together, keep working on making yourself the best person you can be. Your outer world will be a reflection of your inner world.
[quote=gucci loafer]
I advocate a version of Harley's "Plan A/Plan B" approach, where you FIRST stand and fight for the marriage, including aggressively fighting to bust any affairs, and THEN -- when you've had enough -- you do the "Letting go" thing, possibly even filing for divorce.
No two people are alike in how long they can "hold out," and different wayward spouses are going to react differently to how long they perceive "holding out" as just your fear and passivity, and lot of it depends on how you carry yourself thru the whole thing. For me, it was less than 2 months between discovery of my wife's affair and letting her go, but I spent that two months VERY MUCH fighting for my marriage and my family, with everything I had.
Puppy
I agree with this. I fought like hell for my M in the beginning. I jumped through all the hoops. Made the changes. Put my issues on the table in MC. She didn't.
Once she said she didn't want to try any more, I went plan B and worked my butt off to let go. That's where my focus went. How unattractive to chase someone who clearly states they do not want me.
I did that once in HS. My girlfriend started to get involved with another guy. I approached him and asked him to back off. Basically pushed her back into an R with me. The first time we hung out I remember sitting there thinking, "WTF? This is ridiculous. I basically forced her to return to me." I got up, told her I made a mistake and left. I swore never to do that again.
I showed my W that she, my M and my family were important enough to me to fight. And fight I did, with everything I had.
But when it comes down to fighting her then what's the point?
But when it comes down to fighting her then what's the point?
I do think it's different when there's infidelity. If one goes with the basic premise that affairs are highly ADDICTIVE (and I do), then you have to rightly view your spouse as an ADDICT. With that as your model, I think it's reasonable to assume you would try and fight for them, and for the marriage,
for some reasonable amount of time. At some point, that noble fight jumps the shark and becomes some combination of pathetic, emasculating and emotionally damaging, and you have to let them go, just as you would not allow a drowning person to pull you under with them.
Puppy
[quote=steady]
At some point, that noble fight jumps the shark and becomes some combination of pathetic, emasculating and emotionally damaging, and you have to let them go, just as you would not allow a drowning person to pull you under with them.
Puppy
I wish I could tattoo this on my inner eyelids...
There are women here who have turned their sitch around, me included. I decided I didn't want a man who would treat me with disrespect and sent him packing. No contact other than business matters. We don't have children either so that's not a reason BF came back. When I let him go and moved on he realized I was serious and that he blew it.
Several people I respect have given you sound advice, yet you still complain that there's nothing about/for women specifically. It seems to me that you're looking for someone to tell you exactly what to do to make your H see the error of his ways and come running home.
There are no guarantees. Some people save their Rs, some people don't. The successful DBer is someone who has recognized their faults and mistakes, works hard at improving her/himself and does things to make her/himself happy so that the next R is a good one.
Drop the rope (no, you really haven't) and stop worrying about why H does anything. Do the work on yourself and make yourself happy.
this thread is full of gems like that.
thanks puppy.
i have to say this board has been very helpful for me.
it has allowed me to be crazy at times.
but it has also allowed me to explore my own issues.
i don't know how it happened, but it did.
i am by no means out of the woods. i have learned to work on myself, make my list of goals and attack them.
i created a list back in april. i have accomplished 80% of them already. i am building a new list for the fall.
i have realized that my m was somewhat like a prison for me. it often felt my needs came last. now that i am on my own, i have been able to go out and do things that make me a happier person.
you left out a critical component to what makes a woman attractive. and that is their smile.
my first task by the vets was to smile. that's it.
smile at someone. anyone. and observe the feedback.
i smile a lot more now. for the first 4 months, i was a walking zombie. and ever since i started smiling, heads started to turn.
steady - your last bit of advice was good. i work on me to put my best person forward. mine starts with a smile and a good attitude. cute shorts doesn't hurt either.
gucci, pdt - i have to really try and tell myself that i deserve better than this. i want someone who wants to be with me. not someone who just says that there will always be a special place in their heart for me. those are just words. show me that you want me. otherwise, see ya. my life isn't that bad right now. it'd be nice if there was someone to share my journey with.
one of the things i have been working on is to stop looking for the smoking gun, the magic solution, the one thing.
when i do, the rollercoaster ride is on a downward plunge.
it may not seem like it, but i've actually gotten a lot better than before.
the more reason to drop the rope? for my own sanity.
i work on me to put my best person forward. mine starts with a smile and a good attitude. cute shorts doesn't hurt either.
LOL. Cute shorts. So true. They'll notice your inner beauty later.
i work on me to put my best person forward. mine starts with a smile and a good attitude. cute shorts doesn't hurt either.
LOL. Cute shorts. So true. They'll notice your inner beauty later.
Now that made me laugh out loud Dudess. :-)
But when it comes down to fighting her then what's the point?
I do think it's different when there's infidelity. If one goes with the basic premise that affairs are highly ADDICTIVE (and I do), then you have to rightly view your spouse as an ADDICT. With that as your model, I think it's reasonable to assume you would try and fight for them, and for the marriage,
for some reasonable amount of time. At some point, that noble fight jumps the shark and becomes some combination of pathetic, emasculating and emotionally damaging, and you have to let them go, just as you would not allow a drowning person to pull you under with them.
Puppy
Puppy I totally agree. At some point I think they all are like Addicts. They dream of a fantasy where their internal worlds will be straightened out once they get rid of 'the problem'. They become addicted to the path they've chosen where they can't even see any evidence or point of view which goes against the direction they're facing.
I know this is true for my W. I watched it over and over. She ejected anyone who played devils advocate with her and went against her rationalization; I watched as she irrationally rationalized away reality.
I didn't have to deal with infidelity (at least not that I was aware of) and I can easily see how that adds another layer on top of a WAS without an OP. I really feel for anyone here who has to deal with an OP.
I got sick and tired of being sick and tired. I know I did everything that I possibly could do with the tools I had. I can't expect anything else from myself. I can honestly hold my head high with the knowledge I didn't quit or fail.
I think in any sitch there comes a point where it becomes painfully obvious that fighting does become 'pathetic, emasculating and emotionally damaging...'.
It's like dealing with an alcoholic. No matter what anyone says, no matter what evidence is put in front of that person, the power of their denial either rationalizes it away or makes it as if what you are trying to show them is invisible.
It isn't until they 'get it' that the change begins to happen. I've seen it so many times in all kinds of situations.
But like I said, I found myself beating my head up against a wall. There was nothing left to fight except her. And I won't fight her in order to convince her to become committed to our M. My past experience shows it just doesn't work.
LOL. Cute shorts. So true. They'll notice your inner beauty later.
well, they did say that guys were all about the visuals, right?
It's like dealing with an alcoholic. No matter what anyone says, no matter what evidence is put in front of that person, the power of their denial either rationalizes it away or makes it as if what you are trying to show them is invisible.
It isn't until they 'get it' that the change begins to happen. I've seen it so many times in all kinds of situations.
often i don't think they 'get it' until it's too late.
i don't know if they become addicts but i agree that they irrationally rationalize away reality. it's almost as if they are afraid to admit they are wrong or have a problem.
what got me so down today was that last night, i watched ABC PrimeTime Family Secrets. it was about the divorced couple who were forced to live together due to the economic downturn. they were unable to sell their million dollar home and so they lived in separate bedrooms under the same roof for 9 months. to make the long story short, the w asked for the d. the h was devastated. no infidelity. throughout the interviews, it seemed like her reasons for d were due to her mind reading of her h's intentions. in the end, she found a place and moved out. in her final interview, she said that after moving out she has a greater appreciation for her h and that only now she realizes how much he meant to her.
thinking about it, still makes me sad. because the WAW irrationally rationalized away reality and didn't appreciate her h until he was no longer around.
often i don't think they 'get it' until it's too late
I watch my sitch and see the role reversals. Pre-bomb, she wanted to repair the R, I didn't pay attention; post bomb, I wanted to repair, she didn't; the things I did in the past which she complained about she is now doing. I think the final loop that closes is the role reversal after the split up. I'm not sure how often the WAS returns only to be rejected by the previously LBS but I imagine you don't see a lot of it because they probably don't come back to post it here.
in her final interview, she said that after moving out she has a greater appreciation for her h and that only now she realizes how much he meant to her.
thinking about it, still makes me sad. because the WAW irrationally rationalized away reality and didn't appreciate her h until he was no longer around.
That's really interesting. I think what happens is they are all caught up in the drama and they get an obsessive tunnel vision. They are so focused and determined to get away that all their energy is put into that direction and that direction only. Add the fantasy of what they think life will be like once they get away into the mix - once all the drama stops and the smoke clears they are left there with nothing to push all that energy into.
This is why I can appreciate gucci/robx advice. When you actually detach it mimics the smoke clearing. You aren't feeding them the fuel they need to keep their tunnel vision going. You take yourself away from their focus to some degree. If you aren't behaving in a way that they can use to keep justifying their decision they run out of complaints and ammunition that's aimed at you.
When you resist their decision to leave you now give them someone/something to fight. That's the focus. When you tell them go ahead I'm leaving, they have no one to fight.
I know this post is a bit choppy. I'm having a problem getting my thoughts across in a clean way this morning and I really don't feel like cleaning it up...lol.
I'm not sure how often the WAS returns only to be rejected by the previously LBS but I imagine you don't see a lot of it because they probably don't come back to post it here.
i think it depends on how long the sitch lasts. the longer it takes for the was to wake up, the likelihood of the lbs rejecting the was upon return is high.
That's really interesting. I think what happens is they are all caught up in the drama and they get an obsessive tunnel vision. They are so focused and determined to get away that all their energy is put into that direction and that direction only. Add the fantasy of what they think life will be like once they get away into the mix - once all the drama stops and the smoke clears they are left there with nothing to push all that energy into.
i've had friends tell me that they know of others who divorced in haste - thinking that it was for the better. and years later, they are still unhappy and full of regret. another friend of mine told me that her h cheated on her. after about 7 months of separation, he wanted her back. she said no. she said the 7 months were the worst months of her life, during that time she decided she deserved better. infidelity was a dealbreaker for her. to this day, she says her xh still thinks of her and is living with regret for what he did. she is engaged to be married to her long time companion now. i'm really happy for her.
This is why I can appreciate gucci/robx advice. When you actually detach it mimics the smoke clearing. You aren't feeding them the fuel they need to keep their tunnel vision going. You take yourself away from their focus to some degree. If you aren't behaving in a way that they can use to keep justifying their decision they run out of complaints and ammunition that's aimed at you.
i felt a sense of calm when i read the above.
it didn't feel like you were shoving gospel down my throat. there is nothing like being force fed information. it doesn't go down well nor does it get absorbed.
i learn best when there is a well thought out explanation behind it. thanks, steady.
When you resist their decision to leave you now give them someone/something to fight. That's the focus. When you tell them go ahead I'm leaving, they have no one to fight.
gucci told me to fight for what is important to me. the process has been rough but as long as i felt i was doing the right thing, and picking my battles, i always walked away feeling good about myself.
i didn't fight his decision to leave. i didn't encourage it either. it wasn't my decision to make.
I know this post is a bit choppy. I'm having a problem getting my thoughts across in a clean way this morning and I really don't feel like cleaning it up...lol.
it's actually pretty straightforward. i appreciate the post.
I watch my sitch and see the role reversals. Pre-bomb, she wanted to repair the R, I didn't pay attention; post bomb, I wanted to repair, she didn't; the things I did in the past which she complained about she is now doing. I think the final loop that closes is the role reversal after the split up. I'm not sure how often the WAS returns only to be rejected by the previously LBS but I imagine you don't see a lot of it because they probably don't come back to post it here
steady, this is my sitch to a tee.
If my W decided to come back I would have a very difficult decision to make. As of right now she hasn't shown me any changes to herself. Funny how we want them to notice our changes ay first. Now her moves and actions are the ones I'm trying to notice change.
i've been down that road .. first you'd take them back in a millisecond.
as time goes on and the alien WAS really starts looking like a klingon.
and you start to wonder if you want them back or not.
let me guess .. when you start looking for changes, you also tell yourself that the changes aren't permanent, right?
just like the WAS when you were making changes - they were saying to themselves, he/she will never change.
I just re-read my last post and where I wrote 'you' should be 'we' (LBS). It was more of a general pointing and not one directly at you DumpedforMIL
I posted a study on my thread and someone else's about a study that was done. It was pretty interesting.
Here's the link:
Marriage/Divorce SurveyAnd this was something else I found in my research:
Regrets From Divorce
40% of divorced people regretted their divorce and thought it was preventable. (Australian and New Jersey studies. (William J. Doherty, PhD, Family Social Science Dept., University of Minnesota, Bdoherty@che2.che.umm.edu)
62% of both the ex-husbands and ex-wives said they wished their spouses had worked harder, and 35% of the ex-husbands and 21% of ex-wives said they wished they, themselves, had worked harder. Only about a third of the respondents of each gender thought that both ex-spouses had worked hard enough. ( National Survey on Marriage in America, Ever-divorced Respondents Give Reasons for Their Divorces,2005)
“lack of commitment” was the most frequently given reason for the divorce by every divorced respondents . (National Survey on Marriage in America, National Fatherhood Initiative, 2005)
thanks steady. you have helped me to detach.
Funny how these stories and thoughts are similar. Sounds like you all had a conversation with my stbxw!
Karma is a biatch. I firmly believe what goes around comes around. As long as we feel that we tried everything we can hold our heads high. No shame in the efforts you put forth.
I am with you all and if the alien who abducted her decides to return her I really need to rethink if I would take her back ? Wow
Funny how these stories and thoughts are similar. Sounds like you all had a conversation with my stbxw!
Yup. The WAS and LBS run a script. Once the LBS finds their way here they change that script.
From OIN's thread:
This is disgusting, direspectful (to OIN and to his wife), and irresponsible.
I, for one, am done here.
Puppy
pdt, this is why i respect your advice. you back up your words with action.
classic example of setting boundaries and sticking to it.
q: is it bad for me to accept a date with someone? i've started to detach. but is dating while separated considered cheating?
i want to make the right decision. i don't want to be the 'cheater'. yes, i'm separated, not yet d. ever since i started GAL-ing, i've had guys ask me out and some of them are quite nice. i don't want to be confused .. because i could be feeling this way due to the really crappy treatment i got from my h. and the minute someone else is nice to me, i get all 'melty woman'.
what's appropriate and what isn't? gucci, i know you've said it's okay to date others but are there rules?
MIL,
This one -- along with the "should I take off my wedding ring?" one -- is probably THE most difficult, and intensely personal, one to answer.
I will only say that emotionally, you still sound a little "off your game," and I would tend to discourage it, as i would worry you'd be doing it for the wrong reasons. I ultimately DID decide to date -- after vociferously objecting to my wife's idea of doing it! -- after my wife and I briefly separated. And all it took was one date -- heck, one RUMOR of a date - -and my wife responded VERY forcefully, and we reconciled.
I decided only since we were separated, and only if I told my wife honestly of my intentions.
Be careful playing with fire ... cuz it WILL work.
Puppy
This one -- along with the "should I take off my wedding ring?" one -- is probably THE most difficult, and intensely personal, one to answer.
the wedding ring came off a while back already.
i've been ring-less for about two months now. i didn't consult or ask anyone here when i contemplated doing it. when it came off, it hasn't been back on since. i've noticed that my h no longer wears his. i don't know if it's because he noticed that i was no longer wearing mine. you'd think that i would have made a crazy post about it, but i didn't - surprisingly.
I will only say that emotionally, you still sound a little "off your game," and I would tend to discourage it, as i would worry you'd be doing it for the wrong reasons.
i know what you mean. and i so don't want to lead anybody on. i don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. i am afraid that i am misleading myself as well. i'm only now realizing how unloved i was by my h from day 1. there are some nice guys out there. however, i know i'm not ready for a long term relationship. this guy who asked me out, is looking for that special someone to share his life with. we hit it off and we talked for hours and he texted me as soon as we got off. it was almost like you couldn't get enough of each other. now i know why people say that a sign of an A is the increase in txt msgs. i never texted so much in my life. i never even texted my h because i was afraid i'd be bothering him at work.
this isn't the first guy who asked me out. but this would be the first guy i am tempted to say yes to. it came naturally. not like some guy picked me up at a bar.
I ultimately DID decide to date -- after vociferously objecting to my wife's idea of doing it! -- after my wife and I briefly separated. And all it took was one date -- heck, one RUMOR of a date - -and my wife responded VERY forcefully, and we reconciled.
pdt, i want you to know i'm not doing this to get back at my h or anything. i know i posted in the infidelity forum. but this was not something i sought out. it started off as a business meeting and we worked together. and our discussion went from work related to general chit chat. we realized we had some things in common. then he just asked if it was okay to ask me to go out after business hours. i told him my sitch. he was okay with it. and we started talking more .. he ended up asking me out.
for once, i really didn't go this route to get a reaction from my h. i think that's why i'm so conflicted. it's more of me .. i want to do the right thing.
I decided only since we were separated, and only if I told my wife honestly of my intentions.
i wasn't planning on telling my h. because telling him would be trying to get a reaction from him. i didn't even think this was going to happen.
Be careful playing with fire ... cuz it WILL work.
again, i'm sure it might work .. but it may also backfire. my h may not take me back because he's not comfortable being with someone who kissed another man (not saying i will).
am i making a big deal out of nothing? there's gotta be some rules to follow for people who are separated.
If you're planning on keeping it a secret from your husband, then it's not the right thing.
Everything you've said about how it's gotten to where it is, if you turn it around, sounds like a wayward spouse trying to justify an EA with the whole "We're just friends!" thing.
I think you already know the answer to this, MIL.
Puppy
If you're planning on keeping it a secret from your husband, then it's not the right thing.
my h doesn't care about me. i could get run over by a bus and it wouldn't matter to him.
there is no "no dating" clause in our separation agreement.
when he dropped the d-bomb, i asked if it was okay for me to date. i don't remember word for word what he said but it was something along the lines of "i would be hurt but i wouldn't stop you if it made you happy." this is from someone who was adamant that a d was the only solution.
yeeeesh .. i sound like a wayward justifying. no good can come of this.
i already said it myself. i don't want to lead someone on. esp if i know he's looking for a long term relationship and i'm not ready or looking for one.
Everything you've said about how it's gotten to where it is, if you turn it around, sounds like a wayward spouse trying to justify an EA with the whole "We're just friends!" thing.
that's why it feels so wrong.
I think you already know the answer to this, MIL.
yes. why do some give me the advice to move on and find someone who will treat me right? or dump the h and date others? no, i'm not trying to say it's okay .. but what's the premise behind it and when is it okay to date others but still be db-ing?
It sounds like you guys are legally separated. I live in NY, and a legal separation allows for dating with no 'adultery' repercussions.
This is how I interpret your position:
If you are worried if you're actions will push your H away or bring him closer to you then you aren't contemplating a date from a healthy position.
When you are ready to date, you will date because it's what YOU want to do and you won't be thinking about the effect it will have on your sitch.
I've dated some. I did it because I felt like doing it. I didn't care whether my W found out or not. If she would have asked I would have answered her honestly. I'm not looking for any serious R and I went out to have fun. I made that known to the other person. They're grown ups, they can decide for themselves if they wanted to go out based on the truth I told them.
Now for caveat - be careful if you're wanting to date in order to find someone to help you get 'over' your H. Using another person to heal the pain is one way to make it all even worse. You need to process through this sitch and doing so will give you lessons and wisdom you can't even imagine right now. To use anything as a form of bypassing will only hurt you in the long run.
I would imagine the reason you are rationalizing like a wayward is because inside you know you aren't doing it for the right reasons. It's the same for the wayward - that's why they rationalize - to override their conscience.
When you are ready to date, you will date because it's what YOU want to do and you won't be thinking about the effect it will have on your sitch.
the thing is, when it all happened (everything leading up to the big question of "would you like to go out on saturday?") .. i wasn't thinking about my h at all. i didn't think about whether i should tell him or not. i didn't think about getting him back. i didn't think about what reaction i was going to get. i wasn't trying for a reaction.
like you, if he found out and asked, i would be honest about it. but i wasn't going to go out of my way to let him know.
i have to admit though - it's very flattering.
ever since i started playing squash more often, the feel good endorphins (sp?) took over and i started smiling again. i got a life. i made new friends. and a cute pair of lululemon shorts didn't hurt. my happy playful good girl nature is what got me into this dating dilemma.
I made that known to the other person. They're grown ups, they can decide for themselves if they wanted to go out based on the truth I told them.
i need to learn to be clear on this. i said i was going through a separation/divorce at the moment. and i ended it like that. i figure (and this is bad mind-reading) that the person would know that they are dealing with a woman who is still legally married.
I would imagine the reason you are rationalizing like a wayward is because inside you know you aren't doing it for the right reasons. It's the same for the wayward - that's why they rationalize - to override their conscience.
my goal throughout has been to do the right thing - in the end, i have to live with my decisions. i don't want to say things like "well, he was cheating me so it's okay for me to date". i have no proof. and if he was cheating on me or dating someone and didn't tell me .. it still doesn't make it okay for me to do that as well. if h wants to do that, that's him. that's so jr. high. that's not me. i want to hold myself to a higher standard than that.
that's for snapping me out of it.
will only say that emotionally, you still sound a little "off your game," and I would tend to discourage it, as i would worry you'd be doing it for the wrong reasons. I ultimately DID decide to date -- after vociferously objecting to my wife's idea of doing it! -- after my wife and I briefly separated. And all it took was one date -- heck, one RUMOR of a date - -and my wife responded VERY forcefully, and we reconciled.
I decided only since we were separated, and only if I told my wife honestly of my intentions.
Be careful playing with fire ... cuz it WILL work.
Puppy
Puppy,
My W found out I was on a dating site, she even had her friend read my profile.
During our Meeting in May she brought it up, saying I was just doing it to "put it in her face".
I told her I did it for me not to have any affect on her.
I did remove my profile B/c I have been enjoying time with a good lady. This was part of me GALing.
My W is still as cold towards me today as she was 3 months ago.
I'm sure she knows I have gone out on dates but says nothing.
I think she has made her mind up and won't ever change.
My decisions don't involve what she may or may not think.
I'm doing things b/c I want to do them.
Is there anything else that might get her attention?It's funny how the LBS makes changes the WAS alsways wanted to see. I think it pisses them off to see us making changes and enjoying ourselves.
gr8,
I'm sure she knows I have gone out on dates but says nothing.
I think she has made her mind up and won't ever change.
mind-reading. and does it matter?
My W is still as cold towards me today as she was 3 months ago
My decisions don't involve what she may or may not think.
I'm doing things b/c I want to do them.
those two lines contradict what you're saying.
it sounds like it bothers you that after 3 months she's still cold towards you.
yet, you say that your decision doesn't involve what she may or may not thing. really?
Is there anything else that might get her attention?
again, if you weren't looking for a reaction, then you wouldn't be asking this question.
It's funny how the LBS makes changes the WAS alsways wanted to see. I think it pisses them off to see us making changes and enjoying ourselves.
mind-reading is a dangerous thing.
don't take pleasure in the WAS getting pissed off over your changes. that's not the goal.
i understand now that you don't do things to get a reaction from your spouse.
gr8, you haven't fully detached yet .. have you?
i should add that it felt wrong because i felt guilty that during the entire time, i didn't think about my h or my m. that's what made me feel terrible. i should be thinking about my m and my h ..
and i don't know if it's detachment or becoming a wayward. it's a very confusing thing for me.
but pdt's explanation is spot on.
i should add that it felt wrong because i felt guilty that during the entire time, i didn't think about my h or my m. that's what made me feel terrible. i should be thinking about my m and my h ..
I can not think of my STBXW and M just hanging out with friends or relatives or even when busy at work.
AND I don't feel guilty about it.Now who exactly do you think you are fooling? Me? PDT? Coach? Rob?You felt guilty because you are still married and
still emotionally attached to your H.
And if that ain't true, I'll eat a bug!
i should add that it felt wrong because i felt guilty that during the entire time, i didn't think about my h or my m. that's what made me feel terrible. i should be thinking about my m and my h ..
I laugh every time someone shoulds on themselves. The fact is this: you didn't think about your M or H during the entire time. So that's good - you got a mental break from it all. An ego boost for yourself that you still 'got it', some smiles and laughs. Nothing wrong with it at all.
and i don't know if it's detachment or becoming a wayward. it's a very confusing thing for me.
but pdt's explanation is spot on.
It could just be distraction. Sometimes we need that in order to get a perspective on our life. These sitch's can become all consuming and terribly draining. We have to remember there's a life outside of all the drama.
Stop over-analyzing it. Do you think you deserve to go on a date or not? Is it something you want to do? It doesn't mean you have to get into a full blown R or anything else.
Stop trying to justify/un-justify. :-)
pdt is right. i'm not ready for this yet.
met up for late afternoon coffee today - business meeting. this would have decided if the date was on for tomorrow.
i can tell you - there won't be a follow up.
i did not cross the line and i kept it professional.
at the end of the meeting, we parted ways. did not even shake hands.
i'm officially out. i learned my lesson. i hope no harm was done.
So there you go. You did what you needed to do. Good for you.
the problem is, he's very interested in me and is still pursuing me. i made it clear that i was hoping for reconciliation and that i still loved my h very much. that i was not interested in a relationship at the moment.
he wanted to go out as friends. i won't even do that. i can say that for sure. because his intention is that we start off as friends and see where it takes us.
knowing that, i nip it in the bud. you don't even go out as friends. period. i don't lead anybody on.
but like all others, he gave me the "you deserve better" line.
i smiled and i just said that's my decision.
do men just not get it?
So there you go. You did what you needed to do. Good for you.
thanks.
what made the decision easy - he's not my type.
very different from the phone conversation.
i sat across, did not put my hands on the table.
did not reach out. no accidental brushing up, etc.
i kept my distance. but i gave it a chance.
i felt uncomfortable. and when we parted ways, i did not even extend my hand out for a handshake. no touching of any kind. i greeted with a handshake because it was a business meeting. and that was the extent of it.
i received a wake up text from him and this morning and i've completely ignored the text.
he texted me and told me that he found me very cute. i had nice eyes and a nice smile. this was after i told him that i wasn't interested in a relationship.
will ignoring the text messages be enough to say i'm not interested?
he texted me and told me that he found me very cute. i had nice eyes and a nice smile. this was after i told him that i wasn't interested in a relationship.
How does that make him look to you?
Going out for coffee and interacting with other people is good it lets you start to become discerning and aware of other peoples behavior.
Do you see how your thinking changed your emotions and then your actions?
Cheers
ps Bitchy and bossy (fear based) is not the same as confident and assertive (love based).
How does that make him look to you?
it's very unattractive.
it's as if my words were not heard.
i am not interested in a relationship does not mean i want a one night stand or a friend with benefits.
that's not who i am.
Going out for coffee and interacting with other people is good it lets you start to become discerning and aware of other peoples behavior.
Do you see how your thinking changed your emotions and then your actions?
yes. i'm pretty guarded so i kept my arms, hands, and feet to myself. i did not dress to give the wrong message. i'm stylish not skanky. but i always put my best person forward.
even though pdt advised against going and steady said it's okay. i took both pieces of advice into consideration. as long as i did not make it an official date, i didn't see anything harmful. i also conducted myself in a professional manner. it didn't feel like a date. more like a meet-and-greet.
at first, it was all excited - omg, somebody is asking me out!
and when that feeling went away and meeting took place, i found myself saying, i need to get out of this.
my instincts just said, i couldn't do it. and i said that i'm not over my m. i still want to make it work. despite what has happened, my h is still a good person.
of course, then i got the "but don't you think you deserve better?" .. it's clear he doesn't want this. you might as well move on.
i smiled and said no, i think there is still hope. my h and i aren't hostile. we play squash together. everyone finds it weird but we are comfortable with one another and can still hold a conversation with each other. we've been squash partners/friends for a long time. i'm determined not to let our friendship end - even if the m ends.
after we parted ways, he told me he thought i was cute. but he wanted to go out as friends. i said i'm obviously not ready for a relationship and i don't want to lead anybody on. he said "hey, i'm not asking you to be my gf. we can go out as friends and see where it goes."
this is where i may need to be firm. the fact that he says "see where this goes" means he doesn't get it.
so i've ignored his text msgs this morning. being playful and fun, can get you in trouble. i've learned my lesson. i won't be bitchy or cold .. i'll just be 'dumped' ;-)
How does that make him look to you?
it's very unattractive.
it's as if my words were not heard.
i am not interested in a relationship does not mean i want a one night stand or a friend with benefits.
that's not who i am.
I think Coach was alluding to when the LBS pursues the WAS when the WAS does not want a relationship... :-) Been there, done that.
I think Coach was alluding to when the LBS pursues the WAS when the WAS does not want a relationship... :-) Been there, done that.
i am so dense when it comes to this db stuff!!
this guy texted me a few times today.
i just ignored the text msgs. i don't like being texted at 5:30 am on a Saturday AM.
i'm just not interested. i hope the message is clear this time.
you know, i have left my h alone. i've stopped pursuing a long time ago.
i never asked about working on the m, no hugs, nothing.
i don't even inquire about his daily activities.
i don't call, i don't text, i don't stay home just because he does. i continue with my GAL activities.
i'm still trying to work on putting the best 'me' forward.
not for h. but for everyone to see.
pdt, steady: thanks for being there when i needed the advice. it was so sudden. and you responded. if it weren't for you, i wouldn't have learned my lesson. both pieces of advice helped. i realized that i do want to be with someone eventually one day. but i want it to be right. i won't settle.
5:30am?? On a SATURDAY???
Man, you'd better lock up your stock pots, and your bunnies, MIL . . .
Puppy
5:30am?? On a SATURDAY???
Man, you'd better lock up your stock pots, and your bunnies, MIL . . .
pdt, don't scare me.
what was that implying? <don't say stalker>
i'm scared enough.
when he texted me a few times in the AM, i got nervous.
later that afternoon, he texted me again.
but it's 8:36 pm now and have not received a text since.
no call either.
Hopefully he's just dense, not dangerous, but listen to your instincts. Your non-response is good. Here's an article which may be helpful.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/25/science/personal-health-do-s-and-don-ts-for-thwarting-stalker.html
i've deleted the text msgs.
i am going to see if i get any more "wake up, sunshine!" text msgs in the morning.
i really hope not.
i was really scared when i got the text msg in the afternoon. i ignored the morning ones and the afternoon one just freaked me out.
he seemed a bit territorial. i had an appointment at the bank and he kept asking me to blow the appointment off. i was like excuse me? he said "tell the banker you want to hang out with a real man."
it really annoyed me. are you scared now? cuz i am.
thanks for the link. this is too bizarre for me.
5:30am?? On a SATURDAY???
Man, you'd better lock up your stock pots, and your bunnies, MIL . . .
Puppy
LMAO....
MIL he's referring to a scene in this movie:
Fatal Attraction
LMAO....
MIL he's referring to a scene in this movie: Fatal Attraction
ok. now i really feel dense.
i saw that movie .. and i remember that scene.
i learned my lesson, pdt!!
i spent the night at home. for the first time in a while, it felt good just to be home.
Yeah, I was just joking, MIL. But the guy DOES sound a tad posessive!
RUN VERY FAST!!!! aaAAIIIIIIeeeeee!!!!!!!
Puppy
But the guy DOES sound a tad posessive!
Posessive? Not sure. But he's got a problem with self-control if he's calling at 5:30 AM and texting multiple times to somebody whose body language and such weren't inviting.
And it's almost like he doesn't care if she's interested in him so much as if he's interested in her, and that is troubling.
But then again... how did he get her phone number again? Trying to see what the bait was here.
D4MIL is naive. let me just put that one out there. cuz i know i'm just gonna get smucked with a 2x4.
But he's got a problem with self-control if he's calling at 5:30 AM and texting multiple times to somebody whose body language and such weren't inviting.
i think he was smittened (if i can use that word - ugh). i'm pretty easy to get along with and i've always said that i don't treat people differently because they're short or tall, skinny or fat, or "not pretty" to some standards. so i talk to people like human beings. that's who i am. but if you have a horrible personality, then it's hard for me to be nice.
with that being said, there is still a line i do not cross. i may be sweet, friendly, and nice. but i don't allow people to invade my personal space. hence the "folded arms", i did not put my arms/hands on the table, i did not reach out, did not get touchy feely, did not even lean forward. i kept my back to the chair. and at the end of the night, i did not even shake hands.
if that's sending mixed messages, then i'd like to know how what i can do differently next time?
But then again... how did he get her phone number again? Trying to see what the bait was here.
it was actually for a job.
i'm in the company's database. my skills matched a job and they had called me about a potential contract.
the hr firm is legitimate. it is a big firm.
they don't have my home address because it's not on my cv. but my email and mobile number is on as a contact number.
that's how this all got started. it started out as a business deal. we got to know each other a bit better .. we had some things in common. and he asked me out. i asked if this was against his company policy, he said rules are made to be broken and nothing ventured nothing gained. he also said it was tough meeting people, so he took a chance. my friends who had been telling me to move on said he seemed/sounded nice and to not make a big deal about it.
i know i'm naive, but it did seem harmless at first. but in the end, huge mistake. if i never hear from that company again, it won't bother me.
Is that a synonym for
super needy?
Is that a synonym for super needy?
yikes. probably.
men, take note. this is a real example that neediness is
not attractive.
vets, after no text, email, or phone calls in sunday .. i get this email this morning.
"ola coma sta :-) How are tho doing for a Monday?"
should i give a stern response or continue to ignore?
this is really freaking me out.
From your H, or from the bunny-boiler??
From your H, or from the bunny-boiler??
the bunny boiler.
i get zero contact from my h.
i don't understand why my h doesn't talk to me. i would have thought by now things he would be detached enough that we can still talk and not have animosity or feelings towards one another.
at what point do i call the cops?
I'll offer the same advice I offered BobbiJo: the first thing you do is tell him explicitly that it didn't work out and you don't want him to contact you anymore. Those words: "Please don't contact me again. I won't reply to any communication."
This only works if you really don't reply, which sometimes takes more discipline than people think. It's also hard for most people to be explicit and not insert some polite "please and thank you" type words . . . which create mixed messages.
Keep in mind that when people talk about you sending mixed messages, what they really mean is that you left any kind of opening that someone could then apply the astounding power of wishful thinking and self-deception to, changing even frosty politeness into an invitation to keep trying.
i may need to take SillyBear's advice.
another email came in "All good over there?".
i really don't want these emails coming in.
This only works if you really don't reply, which sometimes takes more discipline than people think.
how do you send that message if you don't reply? is ignoring enough?
It's also hard for most people to be explicit and not insert some polite "please and thank you" type words . . . which create mixed messages.
the first thing you do is tell him explicitly that it didn't work out and you don't want him to contact you anymore. Those words: "Please don't contact me again. I won't reply to any communication."
the quote you gave me has the word "Please" in it. would this be a mixed message?
vets, it's starting to scare me a bit because my fear is that the next email is going to be "why are you not responding to my email?!".
help me.
WTF?
Tell him your are not interested in him, there is no attraction and for him to stop contacting you. If that doesn't work tell him you and H are reconciling.
You're right, and you see how ingrained it is--I actually thought I was being careful to exclude the word "please," but it slipped in there on me anyway. It probably wouldn't do any harm, but it isn't necessary and leaves open one more possibility for someone who really wants to believe in "mixed messages."
And I don't recommend simply not responding without telling him that you're not interested, because of exactly what you predict--he may (probably will) take the fact that he hasn't heard from you and spin it in the direction that he likes best. BobbiJo has blocked two email addresses her stalker-guy used to mail her, and he simply registered a new one and carried merrily on, sure it was all some sort of misunderstanding or maybe a lost packet on a server somewhere.
Even at that, simply ceasing to respond is better than responding . . . . sending your own message cutting him off completely and THEN ceasing to respond is best of all.
You tell him that it didn't work out and you're not interested. You tell him to stop contacting him.
You save all texts and emails after that. If he continues to pursue you go to the police. You have to be absolutely sure you tell him you don't want him contacting you. Then do not, I repeat, do not contact him or respond to any of his texts or emails.
You need to keep the text msgs and the emails as evidence.
Welcome to the dating scene of the present time...
if this is the dating scene of the present time, then count me out. this is too creepy, too much drama ..
i will take your advice. if another email rolls in tomorrow, i will have to put my foot down.
the creep is spinning it in his favor because even though i said i was obviously not ready for a relationship, he quickly responded with "i'm not asking you to be my girlfriend. relax. we can hang out as friends and see where it goes."
that's when i knew that he didn't get it.
he's not my type. i'm so not attracted to him.
and no, i don't want to be a 'friend with benefits' either. i'm not that kind of person.
I think you're being a little unfair, calling him a "creep." You DID, after all, change your mind ... no??
In any event, you don't need the drama, that's for sure.
Puppy
...even though i said i was obviously not ready for a relationship, he quickly responded with "i'm not asking you to be my girlfriend. relax. we can hang out as friends and see where it goes."
By saying this you left the door open a little bit. If a man is interested he's going to step right through it.
...he's not my type. i'm so not attracted to him.
This is the thing. You should be straight and honest and should have told him that. It's direct, it's the truth, it's genuinely you. We get so hung up about worrying about someone else's feeling that we keep ourselves from being authentic. It's being authentic that leads us to the best places. The other people are adults, they are responsible for how they handle your honesty.
But it's all good. You just need to be perfectly clear if you need to respond to him again.
By saying this you left the door open a little bit. If a man is interested he's going to step right through it.
so next time, i should just be blunt and slam the door shut?
This is the thing. You should be straight and honest and should have told him that. It's direct, it's the truth, it's genuinely you. We get so hung up about worrying about someone else's feeling that we keep ourselves from being authentic. It's being authentic that leads us to the best places. The other people are adults, they are responsible for how they handle your honesty.
i did get hung up on his feelings and i didn't want to be mean.
he asked me what i thought of him and whether he was the man i envisioned in my dreams (here's the puke bucket).
i paused for the longest time. i didn't know how to put it. so i said no, you're a lot broader than i thought.
i really did not have any good words for him.
if you want me to be my authentic self .. this is what i really thought.
he basically made himself sound better than he really was in person.
he kept saying that his body was a temple.
uh .. his body was stocky .. looked like he was on 'roids but started to let himself go.
he looked like he was 10 yrs older than he really was but dressed like a teenager, had the manners of a cow, and doused himself in half a bottle of cologne.
if you are interested in a woman and you want to impress her, you have to dress to impress. a t-shirt, jeans, and sneakers is not dressing to impress. also, you ask her about her. i asked him questions but he didn't ask me anything. so no, i don't just go by physical appearance. i evaluate the entire person as a whole, and buddy, that was not impressive.
maybe it's from the db-ing but i don't go out looking like a rag. i do my hair, make up, clothes, a great pair of shoes and handbag. i also don't check my manners or intelligence at the door.
when i make that kind of effort, the person sitting across from me had better be making the same kind of effort. i don't think i'm asking for much. don't take this as me being cocky. it's knowing what you want and not settling for less.
is that what you mean by being honest and my authentic self?
so next time, i should just be blunt and slam the door shut?
No. Don't be blunt, leave the door open. Have him text you and email you constantly. :-)
i did get hung up on his feelings and i didn't want to be mean.
So not being 'mean' put you in a position where he doesn't respect your feelings. See how they went backwards? Speaking the truth gets labeled as being mean. It's not mean to answer a question authentically. Do we need to walk around telling every overweight person they're fat? No. But you do need to put your real self out there.
he asked me what i thought of him and whether he was the man i envisioned in my dreams (here's the puke bucket).
Only insecure people need to ask what someone thinks of them.
i paused for the longest time. i didn't know how to put it. so i said no, you're a lot broader than i thought.
i really did not have any good words for him.
lol @ broad. "I don't dream of men."
if you want me to be my authentic self .. this is what i really thought.
I don't want you to be your authentic self for me. I want you to be it for you. It's something I'm working on and it's really freeing and liberating. Why do we have to hide the truth? Why do we have to pretend to be something we aren't? Why do we have to wear a freakin mask?
he basically made himself sound better than he really was in person.
he kept saying that his body was a temple.
uh .. his body was stocky .. looked like he was on 'roids but started to let himself go.
he looked like he was 10 yrs older than he really was but dressed like a teenager, had the manners of a cow, and doused himself in half a bottle of cologne.
Red flag - when a guy brags about himself he has emotional problems like a lack of confidence. Confident people don't talk about their confidence. They just exude it. They know they are so they don't need to point it out.
if you are interested in a woman and you want to impress her, you have to dress to impress. a t-shirt, jeans, and sneakers is not dressing to impress. also, you ask her about her. i asked him questions but he didn't ask me anything. so no, i don't just go by physical appearance. i evaluate the entire person as a whole, and buddy, that was not impressive.
maybe it's from the db-ing but i don't go out looking like a rag. i do my hair, make up, clothes, a great pair of shoes and handbag. i also don't check my manners or intelligence at the door.
when i make that kind of effort, the person sitting across from me had better be making the same kind of effort. i don't think i'm asking for much. don't take this as me being cocky. it's knowing what you want and not settling for less.
is that what you mean by being honest and my authentic self?
YUP. That's you - how you think and feel. Now if you don't show that picture and authentically speak it, how are you going to attract someone with the same values?
I read what you wrote and I feel different. I'm not going to dress to impress. I'm going to dress like I normally do. Why? Because if I put on a show, then 6 months later start becoming 'myself' she's going to sit there and say, "You used to dress much better." So she fell for the show and not the real me.
So if I was on a date with you, and I said, I dress the way I dress and I don't dress to impress. Now you feel - 'I think a person should dress to impress', but you don't say that because you like me and you're afraid of what would happen if you actually said that and disagreed with me. Then there is no authenticity and I don't know I'm dealing with a person who feels the opposite of me. The R is now being built on something other than the truth.
Wow, that looks an awful like most relationships. The honeymoon period ends and the 'real' people show up.
Think about this - where do you think your M would be if you were absolutely authentic the whole time? No buried feelings, no going along so you don't make waves, no accepting a R below the kind of standards you wanted.
No. Don't be blunt, leave the door open. Have him text you and email you constantly. :-)
haha. not funny, steady.
i got a text msg at 9:28 pm - "where did ya disappear to?"
still ignoring.
how long can i keep ignoring this guy?
So not being 'mean' put you in a position where he doesn't respect your feelings. See how they went backwards?
but i like being nice.
i just don't like clingy guys who lie about who they really are, just to get attention.
Only insecure people need to ask what someone thinks of them.
i didn't ask him what he thought of me. he volunteered that information himself.
and i didn't care to offer my thoughts on him because if you have nothing good to say, it's best to say nothing at all.
lol @ broad. "I don't dream of men."
glad you got a good laugh at that one. i didn't know what to say!
Red flag - when a guy brags about himself he has emotional problems like a lack of confidence. Confident people don't talk about their confidence. They just exude it. They know they are so they don't need to point it out.
take note guys.
confidence is attractive. but when you are vocal about it, it's arrogant.
I read what you wrote and I feel different. I'm not going to dress to impress. I'm going to dress like I normally do. Why? Because if I put on a show, then 6 months later start becoming 'myself' she's going to sit there and say, "You used to dress much better." So she fell for the show and not the real me.
if you were interested in your lady, you would make the effort. i guess that's what i was getting at. if you weren't interested, you'd bei knew right off the bat, he was very interested in me. so why didn't he make an effort? come to think of it, maybe that *was* his way of making an effort. yeesh.
being yourself is the way to be - eventually. not on the first meet.
Think about this - where do you think your M would be if you were absolutely authentic the whole time? No buried feelings, no going along so you don't make waves, no accepting a R below the kind of standards you wanted.
i think my m would have been over a long time ago.
but now, i wouldn't want to settle for less.
Tough call. If you had responded to his suggestion that you just see each other as friends, with 'No thanks. I'm not interested, I would say just ignore.
He may be incredibly dense so maybe a text 'I don't want to see you again. Stop contacting me.' is in order.
However, I think you were clear enough that a normal guy might call you again, maybe even two times over a week or two, but get the hint. This guy never stops and texts at 5:30 am. That is rude and major boundary busting.
I'm not going to dress to impress. I'm going to dress like I normally do. Why? Because if I put on a show, then 6 months later start becoming 'myself' she's going to sit there and say, "You used to dress much better." So she fell for the show and not the real me.
If a guy didn't make an effort to look his best for a date, I would think, 'if he doesn't even make an effort now, he would get even lazier later in relationship.'
I certainly wouldn't expect that he would do that all the time, (I wouldn't do that either), but would hope that even in a long term relationship, when we go out together, he wants to look good for me.
I don't think it's inauthentic to put your best self forward in the beginning stages of a relationship. Putting your best self out there doesn't mean you have to pretend to be someone you aren't. You can still be authentic without being an open book to someone you don't know that well yet.
So if I was on a date with you, and I said, I dress the way I dress and I don't dress to impress. Now you feel - 'I think a person should dress to impress', but you don't say that because you like me and you're afraid of what would happen if you actually said that and disagreed with me.
There are reasons other than fear that someone might not tell you what they think. I'd be thinking that no, you obviously don't dress to impress, and wondering why you feel the need to tell me that you don't dress to impress. To impress me with how secure you are in being you? I would think that if you really were, you wouldn't feel the need to announce your renunciation of social norms.
Dudess is right. When you're first dating someone, you look your best. Period. If you look like a bum and say "hey they have to accept me for who I am", well that's your perogative. You'll just find yourself going home alone at the end of the night.
Now there's a difference between dressing to impress and being superficial. That's what I think you're talking about. What woman would want a guy who doesn't know how to take care of himself and look his best regularly?
The stuff I used were only examples. Some of them were poorly chosen....
If a guy didn't make an effort to look his best for a date, I would think, 'if he doesn't even make an effort now, he would get even lazier later in relationship.'
bingo.
if this is as good as it gets, then i'm out.
if i'm out in public with my man, i want to be proud to have him beside me. i want the other women to envy me. that's why you make an effort for her. i don't think this is any different for a man.
I certainly wouldn't expect that he would do that all the time, (I wouldn't do that either), but would hope that even in a long term relationship, when we go out together, he wants to look good for me.
yup. i'm not saying you have to make the effort all the time, but first impressions is very important. you don't want into a job interview in your regular clothes and say "this is who i am, take it or leave it". you dress your best for the interview and when you get the job, you look at what your colleagues are wearing and you try to stay at that level. if your colleagues are in shirt and tie every day, are you going to go to work in shorts and t-shirt just because you want to be your authentic self?
Dudess is right. When you're first dating someone, you look your best. Period. If you look like a bum and say "hey they have to accept me for who I am", well that's your perogative. You'll just find yourself going home alone at the end of the night.
that's how this guy ended up not getting a second date.
Now there's a difference between dressing to impress and being superficial. That's what I think you're talking about. What woman would want a guy who doesn't know how to take care of himself and look his best regularly?
yes, there's superficial and then there's self-confidence and taking care of yourself.
you really have to be careful with the "this is who i am, take it or leave it" mentality because many times, you will hear spouses being left behind because they've let themselves go. is this not a lesson to be learned? men and women who've gained weight and stopped making an effort for their spouse. and it's not about being superficial but it's about taking care of yourself and loving yourself enough to do something about it and being healthy.
we all have to make the effort and once you become complacent, you're going to end up on the boards here, wondering what did i do wrong? if you can't even bother putting in the effort to look good, will that translate to the kind of effort you would put into making our relationship work? working on a relationship is harder than making yourself look good.
and what is the first thing people tell you to do when you've been left behind? GAL, go to the gym, buy new clothes, get a new hair cut, etc. what does that tell you? the advice is not to tell you to be superficial. it's telling you to look and feel your best.
secondly, you have to be able to sustain these changes otherwise the walkaway will know that nothing has changed. looking your best and putting your best face forward has to be your new 'norm'.
i'm not trying to be hard on you, steady.
my guess is .. if you met someone who blew you away, you'll make the effort. why? because she'd be worth the effort to you.
Like I said, some of the examples were poorly chosen. I missed the mark on getting my point across and it has now wandered off on a tangent.
What I was saying has nothing to do with a take it or leave it mentality. Hell, I'm the hardest working changenest man I have ever met. I've been doing it for over two decades. I'll be the first to tell you if you don't change you're going backwards and you're growing stale.
this thread is like my journal for the number of unwanted emails, text msgs, and phone calls that i get.
got another email last night.
i mentioned that this started out as a business meeting.
well, guess what angle he is trying to use to get me to respond?
"we are submitting your cv to the client. any last minute words of wisdom or thoughts?"
sent at 10:02 pm last night.
sorry, wasn't home to read it. cuz i have a life!
Dumped ~
I sort of skimmed through this thread and may have missed it - if so, sorry - but have you directly addressed this person's behavior with him? What were the words you used, if so?
Greek
I sort of skimmed through this thread and may have missed it - if so, sorry - but have you directly addressed this person's behavior with him? What were the words you used, if so?
i said that i was obviously not ready for a relationship. but maybe we could be friends. i figure giving him that we can be friends speech was a hint. boy was i wrong.
he responded with "hey, i'm not asking you to be my girlfriend. i was just thinking we can hang out as friends and see where it goes."
see where it goes?
so i said "well, i have to put that out there. because i don't want to lead you on. that's not something i do."
he responded with "chillax .. it's all good".
then he proceeded to tell me how he thought i was cute. he liked my eyes and my smile.
then he asked me what i thought about him and whether he was what i envisioned in my sleep. *gag*
i paused. then i just said "no, you're a lot broader than i thought".
that was the last i ever texted.
then he replied at 5:30 am "broader? that's because i'm a real man. :)". i ignored.
at 8:30 am i get a text "wake up sunshine!". i ignored.
at 9:00 am "hope you have a great day!". i ignored.
i had a kitchen design appointment. he said "how's the design appointment going with Mr. Hottie?" like wtf? this is a design appointment, not a date. i ignored.
then i get emails and i got a text the other night "where did ya disappear to?" cuz i stopped responding to all forms of communication.
welcome back, greek.
Thanks for the recap.
So if I was in your shoes, and the texting and email persisted AND IT WAS BOTHERING ME...I would write "Guy, thanks for all of the attention, but I do not like the frequency of texts and email. Please, stop altogether."
Greek
Gotta love the Greek.
I agree with Greek. I think you need to just be direct and to the point. Don't worry about his feelings...it's obvious he isn't respecting yours.
Some guys don't get it until you permanent marker it into the inside of their eyelids.
Even then there are some who would just walk around with their eyes permanently open and pretend there wasn't writing on those eye shades....lol
So if I was in your shoes, and the texting and email persisted AND IT WAS BOTHERING ME...I would write "Guy, thanks for all of the attention, but I do not like the frequency of texts and email. Please, stop altogether."
I know you haven't read all this thread Greek, (having a nice vacation I hope), but I posted this link about thwarting potential stalkers.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/25/science/personal-health-do-s-and-don-ts-for-thwarting-stalker.html I agree that she may need to directly say 'stop' to this guy, but I would NOT thank him for the attention nor say anything which suggests it is simply the frequency which is the problem.
He may just be clueless and annoying, but there is also a chance he could be dangerous. Better to err on the side of caution IMO.
If anyone is looking for DumpedforMIL, she's over here:
DumpedforMIL current thread
i'd like to consider this thread dormant for now.
i asked puppy for his input only because he has the most experience in dealing with sitchs.
as he had pointed out earlier, my original thread is long and i do have some really good advice that is helping me focus on me.
i've stopped "handwaving" and will work with the vets who have been with me from the very beginning. i find that too much advice tends to confuse me as everyone has an opinion. i learned that the hard way and it actually isn't helpful to me.
P.S. the emails & texts have stopped. i think he got the picture.
thanks.