coach, trying to have faith - DivorceBusting.com

it seems my hunch was correct.
i had a mini bomb dropped on me today.
i am beginning to lose faith.

coach, what do i do?

Tell us more about the bomb?

financial statements for s agreement drafted by MY l shows that i may end up paying HIM.
h's father has had access to h's investment account during the course of our m and h's father made some bad investments.
creating big losses for h.
this showed in his statements and resulted in a lower net worth for him.
so despite making 1/4 of what h makes, i end up having to pay him an equalization amount.

also, if i want to keep my rings, jewellery, and handbag (that were gifts PRE-marriage), that equalization payment jumps to 10x what i'd have to pay him now.

while he's jetsetting with his parents on lavish vacations, i'm supporting myself, no vacations, not asking for spousal support, and he walked away with the lion share of the household goods.

i have to fight for my jewellery and to keep my jewellery, i must pay for it?! and i am responsible for the debt that HIS father created?!

this is the payback i get for doing the right thing during our m.

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it seems my hunch was correct.

What? You got served D papers?

What you do doesn't change. Let me go look over on Shelby's thread.......

Time for a new atty. I've never heard of EITHER ONE of these things (counting "net worth" instead of "income" in alimony and CS calculations, or pre-marriage jewelry being anything OTHER than sole property)!

And a good atty should be able to help you document a demonstrable case of "squandering of marital assets," that should come out of YOUR HUSBAND's side of the equation!

I haven't followed your sitch all that closely, MIL, but this doesn't sound right to me.

Puppy

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and i am responsible for the debt that HIS father created?!

Can you prove it? Do you have a paper trail? If you ACH'd or wired money there is a record. Did your H sign a POA? Were you on the acct?

Remember this is business, don't get snarky. Facts are what you need. Dates, records, statements, receipts, confirmations etc.

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this is the payback i get for doing the right thing during our m.

lose that thinking it's unproductive, you are feeling sorry for yourself. You can only control how you act now. Handle it.

i'm so ready to tear my atty a new a$$hole.

my l asked for honesty from me. i gave him honesty.
i have not lied on my statement. i did not hide anything. i did not create any sudden debts.

and now i'm on the hook for debts his father helped HIM incur?
bs

Don't tear him a new anything. Ask him/her "What can we do about making a case for squandering marital assets with his expenditures on X, Y and Z since (date)??" and "Help me understand why net worth is being used as the determination for support, rather than income? At a minimum, shouldn't BOTH be taken into account?"

I had the opposite problem. I had a very high income, but a very low net worth. And trust me, it was the INCOME that the court cared about.

Puppy

You don't understand how the game is played. Now you counter. The more you both haggle the more the attorneys are involved (in case you didn't know they get paid by the hour not the case) and the longer it goes on. To reach the middle they start on the edge.

learn the rules of this game, it's a legal negotiation. When emotions get involved is when it gets stupid. You are no where near detached enough. Your anger is still a hindrance to you. Work on it.

You can handle it.

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Time for a new atty. I've never heard of EITHER ONE of these things (counting "net worth" instead of "income" in alimony and CS calculations, or pre-marriage jewelry being anything OTHER than sole property)!

his l has stated that "both parties are able to support themselves so spousal support is not necessary."

if it's true that my net worth is more than his, it will be difficult for me to make a claim for spousal support.

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And a good atty should be able to help you document a demonstrable case of "squandering of marital assets," that should come out of YOUR HUSBAND's side of the equation!

there is no paper trail on this. his father simply logged on with his son's password and id. with their family, there is no paper trail. it's all done verbally. i do not know his password or id.

i am livid.

Originally Posted By: DumpedforMIL

his l has stated that "both parties are able to support themselves so spousal support is not necessary."

STANDARD OPENING-ROUND GAMBIT. See Coach's advice, above. It's the equivalent of a criminal attorney's opening salvo being to ask the judge to dismiss the case outright. "It's worth a shot," so to speak. It's NOT to be considered a serious offer.

How long have you been married?

What state are you in?

What research have you done about spousal support in your jurisdiction?

Puppy

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there is no paper trail on this. his father simply logged on with his son's password and id. with their family, there is no paper trail. it's all done verbally. i do not know his password or id.

then your L takes a depositon from FIL under oath, the online acct can be brought up to see who signed on (what USERID) and when. Your H pc and work PC records can be subpoenaed.

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You don't understand how the game is played. Now you counter. The more you both haggle the more the attorneys are involved (in case you didn't know they get paid by the hour not the case) and the longer it goes on. To reach the middle they start on the edge.

yes, i understand that is how the game is played.
every minute i speak to the l costs me money for a d i never asked for.
my counter is: i own the jewellery, it is non-negotiable. skip mediation, go straight to court. i have given up too much of the household goods because i had faith in my l.

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learn the rules of this game, it's a legal negotiation. When emotions get involved is when it gets stupid. You are no where near detached enough. Your anger is still a hindrance to you. Work on it.

i have learned the rules and the law. which is why this is very stupid.
his l is really the one who is holding everything up.
i submitted everything i had, including proof.
his financial statement came with almost no proof for any of his claims.
so that means WE have to send a formal note asking for proof on his claims.
AND his stupid l allowed things like jewellery and rings to be included on his statement when CLEARLY the law says those belong to me.
his l is obvious seeing a guy acting on emotion and is taking advantage of his client.

the first thing my l said to me was to stop thinking with the heart, and starting thinking with the brain.

the ridiculous claims that h has made is making me lose faith in the system.
i held back, bit my tongue, and gave up stuff because i figure the system would protect me. i don't know if i can trust the system any more.

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then your L takes a depositon from FIL under oath, the online acct can be brought up to see who signed on (what USERID) and when. Your H pc and work PC records can be subpoenaed.

it may have to come to this.
i know that anything gains made are to be divided equally, but also any debts incurred.

but i wasn't responsible for this "debt".

it's funny how his father kept insisting that i pay for any losses he made, the wedding costs he incurred, and any gifts they gave to us during m.

can you say 'money hungry'?

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but i wasn't responsible for this "debt".

Then find the evidence to prove it. You fight legal arguments with facts.

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can you say 'money hungry'?

why you holding onto this? you have had it since day one here. "Holding a grudge is like drinking poisin and expecting the other person to die." Your anger is of the passive-agressive kind, it's OK to be angry but it's doesn't look healthy from my POV.

I agree with Coach. It makes me not even want to post to you.

Puppy

What state are you in? Are you even in the US?

Anything GIFTED to you pre marriage is yours unless a pre nup states otherwise. In *some* cases if the engagement ring was a family heirloom it may have to be returned but that paperwork was long in place.

Who gives a rats ass what his attny says? I can support myself just fine as well but I still get two checks per month

As my attny used to say "extract the facts".

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Who gives a rats ass what his attny says?

CG speak truth.

i guess i'm just tired of this.

he wanted this to be quick.
yet, it seems like my l is prepared with all of my stuff and his l is not sending over complete information.
the law does say that pre-marriage stuff is excluded and belongs to me.
this is a basic part of divorce law.
my l knew that. his l should have known that but kept all of this stuff on with no evidence and no proof.
all this back and forth, it's just costing both sides a lot of money.
i'm okay if he wants out but how is helping us?

the line in the draft statement that put me over the edge was that if i were to include the rings on my statement, it would increase my net worth and then i would have to pay h 10x more than what i owe him without the rings on my statement.
why is this even a consideration when initially, they told me the jewellery was not part of the agreement. gifts given to me were mine.

a big part of my frustration is that i don't know what to believe or who to believe anymore.
one day a gift is mine.
the next day, i may have to pay for what was a 'gift' to me.
i am afraid because now i do feel alone.
who do i trust?

the "money hungry" statement is really just my way of trying to stop a game i don't want to play because i am afraid of the next wave of emotional toll it will take on me.
it's like saying "stop, the target you want is not me. it's the other guy." and hoping that this would stop what i fear which is a legal fight. divert his attention to something else but i can't avoid it.

it is going down a cheeseless tunnel because no matter how many times i say it, it doesn't change a thing.

I understand you wanting privacy but if you can tell us what state you are in that would be very helpful.

None of this makes any sense IMO. You are either not understanding what your attny is telling you or your attny doesn't know what he is talking about.

Unless your rings are in the million dollar range all of this seems a bit out there.

If your H's attny is not complying with the terms and conditions set forth by the legal procedure of your state then I do think (based on not knowing what state you are in) some sort of judicial intervention can be instated.

Legal paperwork and meetings can be overwhelming. Are you sure you are understanding this all correctly?

Originally Posted By: DumpedforMIL

yet, it seems like my l is prepared with all of my stuff and his l is not sending over complete information.
the law does say that pre-marriage stuff is excluded and belongs to me.
this is a basic part of divorce law.
my l knew that. his l should have known that but kept all of this stuff on with no evidence and no proof.
all this back and forth, it's just costing both sides a lot of money.
i'm okay if he wants out but how is helping us?

What do you mean, "kept" this stuff? If your husband files initial Petitions, and you file counter-petitions, you can REFUTE the initial pleadings, but they're still a part of the record.

Are you saying that your atty AGREED to treat these gifts as joint marital property, legally??

Puppy

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I understand you wanting privacy but if you can tell us what state you are in that would be very helpful.

NY

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None of this makes any sense IMO. You are either not understanding what your attny is telling you or your attny doesn't know what he is talking about.

initially when i first met with the l to provide evidence for my financial statement, i asked him if i was going to owe. he said based on salary it's likely he will owe me.
when i first saw his financial statements, i was floored when i saw his claim on my jewellery and jacket. the jacket really shocked me. that was unexpected.
i called my l and he said he was not surprised because i had told him that my h was going to do this. even though we knew the ring was mine.
but again, what threw me off was that my l said "yeah, they tend to ask for the world and then we negotiate to somewhere in the middle."
i said hold on, i have to negotiate for stuff that i own?
he has claimed 100% ownership of the stuff that belongs to me.
what man claims 100% ownership of a $500 ladies jacket?
ok. let's calm down .. have my l look it over. have faith in my l.

the l has now completed a draft of our combined financial statements.
we are awaiting proof on a lot of the stuff that h has claimed.
the number can still change.
however, as it stands. i owe him. despite making 1/4 of what he makes.
that's not the kicker.
the kicker is that if i were to include my jewellery under my net worth and he includes his ring under his net worth, then my payment to him is potentially 10x more than without the rings on the statement.

why would the l state this unless it was an option?
so there is the potential that i have to put this on my financial statement?
a gift that is pre-marriage must go on my statement?
does this apply to all gifts or just my gifts?
this is where i don't know who or what to believe.
one day jewellery is off, next day the jewellery is back on.

this shouldn't be so complicated.

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Are you saying that your atty AGREED to treat these gifts as joint marital property, legally??

my atty hasn't agreed or denied to treat these gifts as joint marital property.
maybe he's waiting to address it during mediation?

we are asking for proof on his bank accounts, shares, etc.
they have not provided any supporting evidence on that.
i saw the letter sent to h's atty and it did not address the jewellery issue. only made a request for supporting documentation.

I am in NY and was wrapped up in a horrible case (still am actually) for close to three years.

Something is not right here.

First of all, there is no criteria for spousal support; instead it is based on a list of factors established by the courts.

Second of all... if your H filed a divorce petition he MUST include a statement to support the grounds he has filed under.

It seems you are talking about disclosure when you say "drafts" and what you are saying is NOTHING like I had to fill out and trust me I had to fill out a ton of stuff (started as a divorce then went to a Separation Agreement almost 18 months later).

What do you mean by mediation? A pre-trial hearing?

If your H refused to provide supporting documents for financial disclosure you can either (A) both waive your rights to full disclosure or (B) judicial intervention will be requested on YOUR behalf by YOUR attny for your H's non compliance.

I have binders and binders of info on this BS and something is not right with what you are understanding.

Ok - I just looked it up from my own set of discovery documents and the final Agreement filed with the court.

The discovery documents (standard) state:

Non-Marital Property: includes gifts and inheritances given to ONE spouse, a vested pension PRE marriage and personal injury awards obtained during the duration of the marriage

Now this is all DURING a marriage. What was gifted to you pre marriage, even if joint funds were used, cannot be included in marital property.

Income can come from a job, contract work, investments and so on but "stuff" is not part of INCOME, it is part of the ASSET package. Maybe that is where you are confused?

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What was gifted to you pre marriage, even if joint funds were used, cannot be included in marital property.

this part of the law is what h does NOT seem to understand.
you would think that his l would know better but no, they put it down anyway, even though the law says gifts pre-marriage are NOT his.

ok, i understand it's the "it never hurts to ask for the world" mentality or "ask for the world and negotiate to some middle ground".

but he's said he wanted this to be a quick settlement. if you continue to allow your lawyer to do this back and forth stuff, it's going to drag things out and it's going to cost us so much money in the end. and if the law prevails, he won't get the rings back.

it's the way my h and his l are interpreting this part of the law is what frustrates me.
it's pretty straightforward but it really seems like they are trying to see how patient i am with the settlement. if they drag it out long enough, maybe i will give up the jewellery.

And YOU'RE not acting on emotion??

You're ready to "tear your atty a new one" and now you're basically saying he hasn't done anything that's incorrect?

I agree with Coach; you are WAY too emotional and reactive here, MIL. You need to detach a LOT more before you can make good decisions here.

Puppy

i have about two weeks to detach.
i see my l at the end of the month to discuss the next step.

i haven't spoken to my l since april.
i have been in contact with the legal assistant.

she said things can change depending on what kind of proof they come back with but the chances are, he will have proof for everything. the stuff being asked for is pretty straight-forward.

i believe CG where gifts shouldn't belong as part of my asset list.
is there something or some loophole that i am not aware of?
i guess i thought i covered my bases and now i'm not sure.
i don't know if it's detachment but self-confidence.
i read the law. i understand it.
but when i read something that is different from what i've read, i doubt myself.

Originally Posted By: DumpedforMIL

i read the law. i understand it.

That's not the impression I get. Maybe it's just the anger coming thru, I dunno.

Puppy

i can see that.

i look at my previous post and i said "it should be straightforward."
that was pretty naive of me to say.