My other thread in the A section has died down. After battling a second wave of an EA (same OM) I felt it was now appropriate to move my sitch her again (hopefully for the last time).
I won't go much into the back story but rather I want to point out progress made since our sitch began and where we are today.
THEN: W barely spoke to me and would come home from work and sleep all day til I left for work.
NOW: W and I interact more and have conversations.
THEN: W did not want to do anything with me, would much rather stay at home and do nothing or have nothing to do with me.
NOW: W has come around more recently, we do things together often and go places.
THEN: W would threaten nearly everyday that one day she is leaving and separation and divorce is inevitable
NOW: W does not threaten. W talks and does as if she is staying but has provided no affirmation.
When our sitch began W wanted to have nothing to do with our marriage that as far as she was concerned "It's already over" and to her "Marriage is nothing more than a piece of paper"
Two weeks ago W approached me about having a house warming/birthday party (for/at the house she intends to leave) for her and invite all of her family (but just her family). For the past two weeks I have witnessed my W take more initiative and invest time and money into our home than she has since we first purchased our home.
In the past two weeks I have witnessed W warm up to the thought of our marriage. Up to this point W did not want to remember anything to do with our marriage to her it was all a "mistake." W has now pulled out decor, cards, gifts from our wedding. Some of which she has put up on shelves in our home. W has not fully opened up but she has more so than ever before during our sitch.
I know it can have everything to do with the party we are planning and I am not overlooking that possibility, so if this is some "game" she is playing she is doing a great job at it but then again why would she invest the time, effort and money just to still walk out the door?
In the past if I made any future reference about our home,M, R with the assumption that W and I would still be together W would immediately dismiss the comment and make sure I knew she was still plan on leaving. For the past few weeks we have had conversations that assumed a future between us with no such negative comments
We have come a long way in our sitch in the past 5 months but there still is a lot of uncertainty and many areas of our R that need improvement especially in the communication department.
Here are my past threads:
Thread 1 thread 2 Thread 3
OIN,
"Died down"?? You got over 7,000 views and over 600 responses, just on the last thread alone. What is it you're looking for, by keeping on switching between the two forums? Someone to tell you what you want to hear?
I could care less about my own knucklehead advice, but this is the second time (at least) that you've done this, and it just strikes me as rude of you toward the few of people like Allen and CityGirl and TimeHeals and Sandi who have taken SO much time and posted SO much excellent advice to you.
Puppy
Major exposure today that could be open to interpenetration.
I sat and thought about our sitch some today while W was at work. I thought about how recently W uses sounds to communicate with me rather than words sometimes. I was encouraged to call W out whenever she did this, and I did for the most part expressing how I found it disrespectful and not healthy for a relationship. I would wait for the opportunity for me to call my W out on the way she spoke to me or a lack thereof, that it began to consume me, I started to take it very personal. I think I said it enough times at this point for my W to know the point I was making and now it is up to her to make the change, I will just have to "stomach" it for now and if it starts to get worse then call her out on it (It is not as bad as it use to be)
W came home from work, she told me a few stories about things that happened at work, then W went upstairs and I remained downstairs continuing my home repairs.
W and I had a few conversations that went south quick so rather than have the situation escalate I walked away.
W and I had planned to go out to the town she grew up where they were filming an independent horror film and see what it was all about.
On the way out there W wanted to stop by and see FIL who was working on the house my W will be moving into (so she said in the past). FIL greeted us with smiles and showed us what he had done. Took W and I up to "her apartment" to show off a rug he purchased. W commented on the rug but did not hint that she would be the one living there. FIL nor W said made any implications about W moving there.
Eventually we all went down to the movie set where we stood and watched for a little bit.
And then it happened....
Female co-worker of my W comes walking by and greets my W, W then introduces me to her. Co-worker walks away but eventually makes her way back over then she said to me "So are you exciting about moving soon?" I looked at this woman with a extremely questionable face without replying then I looked over and my W who was shaking her head 'NO' to co-worker and then co-worker asked "So you guys are not moving?" W just kept shaking her head no and co-worker then said "Darn that stinks I was looking forward to car pooling to work"
Once co-worker walked away all I could do is smile and look straight ahead.
W then said "She must had thought we were moving when I told her I was moving a while back" then went on to say "I asked her how long it took for her to get to work from out here and she came up with the idea of car pooling ect.."
After W did not say anything about moving out she just carried on as if that convo did not happen.
a few min later W TOLD me to go take a picture and I looked at her...W then said PLEASE with a pissy attitude. SO I then handed back the camera. W said "I am not a little kid, I don't need to be told what to say" I replied "It is not my intention to tell you what you should or should not say, we are adults and WE as adults should demonstrate common courtesy to one another." W then replies "Sometimes I do things on purpose to see how you will react to them."
After she said that (which I consider a slip up on her part) I got a new perspective on our sitch.
W and I headed home and I said "I am not talking down to you, I just think we can have more enjoyable conversations and greater interactions if we just learned to communicate with each other better" W said nothing in return, point made and I left it at that.
We got home had descent conversations and W went to bed.
OIN,
"Died down"?? You got over 7,000 views and over 600 responses, just on the last thread alone. What is it you're looking for, by keeping on switching between the two forums? Someone to tell you what you want to hear?
I could care less about my own knucklehead advice, but this is the second time (at least) that you've done this, and it just strikes me as rude of you toward the few of people like Allen and CityGirl and TimeHeals and Sandi who have taken SO much time and posted SO much excellent advice to you.
Puppy
Whoa did not mean to offend you nor anyone else. The thread was in the infidelity section of the forum, the last week or so of posts were off topic of infidelity and more of core DBing so I thought it was only appropriate to continue in the proper section. Allen A said himself that he is not the best when it comes to DB that his specialty is affair busting.
My first thread was locked so then I moved to this section, then I learned about part 2 of the EA so I went back to the appropriate forum (A section) and started a new thread and likewise here.
I truly appreciate ALL the advice everyone has given me up to this point and it has ALL been a tremendous help I meant no harm when I said "died down" but I was referring to the EA part itself not the advice.
I made the wrong choice of words and maybe a wrong choice by moving my sitch back to this forum.
BTW I am not looking for any other advice from what I have received. I just thought it would help our sitch if I kept those who provided me with the advice with updates.
"Sometimes I do things on purpose to see how you will react to them."
This is what I was talking about in your previous thread. This, to me, is just a byproduct of your previous controlling behavior. She's basically rebelling and making a point to push your buttons so she can stand up to you. I think you're doing well. Don't engage her in an argument over this. Continue to affirm that you really want a better partnership and communication in the future. I personally think you're out of the woods. I would continue to treat her well and with respect and continue to require her to do the same.
"Sometimes I do things on purpose to see how you will react to them."
This is what I was talking about in your previous thread. This, to me, is just a byproduct of your previous controlling behavior. She's basically rebelling and making a point to push your buttons so she can stand up to you. I think you're doing well. Don't engage her in an argument over this. Continue to affirm that you really want a better partnership and communication in the future. I personally think you're out of the woods. I would continue to treat her well and with respect and continue to require her to do the same.
Thanks for the reply.
Yeah I just don't know how to handle it. She is a smart woman and knows what she is doing. She has done a lot of button pushing, mainly in the form of communication and the other being lack of affection.
If I react then W proves a point if I don't react then our communication suffers. If I call W out on disrespect then to her I am reacting and point proven. W does not see this as a "respect" thing but more as me being controlling.
Communication has improved but there are times when W throws in the occasional "umm hmm", "hmmm" and all that and I had a feeling it was intentional but was unsure how to respond. I know she gets my point and moving forward I will let it ride unless it is extreme.
giving the developments in the past 3 weeks it is hard to imagine W still leaving the home. Today W and I brought some of her grandmothers things home that FIL found in the old house he is fixing up. W and I plan to incorporate them somehow in our home/garden.
W also purchased a coffee maker so when FIL comes and visits (something FIL suggested we did long ago way before sitch began).
I want to start building with W but unsure how to approach it. I would like to start being affectionate again. Is it too much right now to try and hold W's hand and see what her reaction might be? I have a feeling she might test me and reject it, that is why I am so hesitant to try. I know this seems so small compared to other sitches but somehow we need to break through our current state and move forward.
I say try holding her hand, and if she reacts negatively, tell her, "Sometimes I do things on purpose to see how you will react to them", and smile.
I say try holding her hand, and if she reacts negatively, tell her, "Sometimes I do things on purpose to see how you will react to them", and smile.
Niiiiiice.
Puppy
"Sometimes I do things on purpose to see how you will react to them."
This is what I was talking about in your previous thread. This, to me, is just a byproduct of your previous controlling behavior. She's basically rebelling and making a point to push your buttons so she can stand up to you. I think you're doing well. Don't engage her in an argument over this. Continue to affirm that you really want a better partnership and communication in the future. I personally think you're out of the woods. I would continue to treat her well and with respect and continue to require her to do the same.
Thanks for the reply.
If I react then W proves a point if I don't react then our communication suffers. I don't think this is totally true. What I mean is don't act negatively or engage in a power struggle. You were in a relationship with an unhealthy balance of power, now, because she threatened to leave, the balance of power has shifted. Everything you say should reflect your desire for equality.
Today started out like usual. W woke up for work, I was up as she was leaving, W then left.
While W is at work I do some work around the house, clean up and get ready to go. W returned home from work, greets the dog, I am laying in bed on the laptop, W walks in bedroom and says she is going to lay down for a bit before we leave. After an hour or so W wakes up. W was eating, I took a nibble off her plate and she ate around that piece and ended up not eating it, I took offense, W caught on.
W and I then headed out the door, W seemed irritated. We had planned to visit my grandfathers burial site for Fathers Day. as we are driving I decided I wanted to hook up the iPod. I am fussing with it as I am driving and W decided to lend a hand
As she is doing this I noticed a sparkle out the corner of my eye. I briefly glanced toward W and seen she was wearing her wedding ring. I was in shock and felt a chill move through me. The ring had sat in the bathroom in a cup for nearly 2 Months. I go tired of it just sitting there so I moved it into a box inside her nightstand drawer in plain site where it has sat for the past Month and there it was on her finger. I said nothing and carried on as if I did not see it.
We and I stopped off and got some flowers for my Grandfather and went to visit him, after W and I went out to see FIL. Gave him a gift. FIL seemed cheerful. W talked to FIL about our home improvements among other things. W told FIL how WE purchased a coffee maker for when he comes and visits.
After our visit W and I headed home. Watched one of our favorite shows and W then went to take a bath.
I am not sure what to think about the ring, I will see when tomorrow comes if she puts it back on. She has already placed it back in the box in the drawer. I don;t know if it was a test or W is enticing me to say or do something.
I wanted to try to hold W's hand today but chickened out. I am very confused. Sometimes it seems like she would acceptable and others I think she would just reject me. Being in a marriage and not be affectionate is just kills but I am not sure if it is too soon to make such advances.
All indicators right now is that W is staying in our home but as for our actual R is concerned I am now sure where we stand.
I'll be anxious to see if she wears her ring when not visiting anyone -- just with you for the day.
Puppy
Well be there before. There was a time during out sitch where W would only wear the ring when we would go to a family gathering, concert, show or event. Easter is when it stopped she just stopped wearing the ring all together. Easter Sunday at her family's home W did not wear her wedding ring.
Along with Easter Sunday, W has not wore the ring to any family outings, or shows/events we attended. We have visited with FIL a few times since then with no ring. I though it was long forgotten and since she was able to face people without wearing it I thought that I would never see it on her finger again that is why I was in shock.
We will see what tomorrow brings.
The thought of asking W were we stand has crossed my mind but I held back. I don;t want to pressure W at the same time I often wonder if she is waiting to be pursued.
Taking bets for when OIN gets laid by his own wife.
Last time you said that the EA kicked up again. My W won't even let me see her get changed. My W is not acceptable to my touch yet, so it is safe to say intimacy is far fetched.
Just a matter of time though, how much time is the question - hence the bets. What has to change or adjust so that she actually wants to see her get dressed or changing?
Its a good sign when she started going through and putting up wedding pictures, and your officer of the month pics, and considering wearing the ring, etc, etc.
New good memories.
NEED ADVICE AND HELP UNDERSTANDING WHAT JUST HAPPENED/SAID
W and I decided to do some more work on the house today. W spoke future tense a few times.
During us doing the work (painting ect) W was communicating to me using sounds again. According to her, she is hot and aggravated.
There came a point where W asked where I wanted the towel rack in the bathroom and I replied "Where ever you think it looks best" W got upset because earlier I said I did not like the towel rack where it currently was.
W then attempted to put the mirror back on the wall in the bathroom I attempted to help her as I was moving over we bumped into each other but W acted as if I had done it on purpose.
W then gave up and went and sat down then we had a conversation that I think has done a lot of damage.
W questioned why I have an attitude, I told W
"I am sorry you feel that I have an attitude."
W went on to tell me why she thinks I have an attitude
I said "I can see how you might think I have an attitude"
I then asked W what her intentions are
W asked "What do you mean?" and I replied "DO you plan on leaving?" W said "I can't answer that right now"
I then said "I enjoy the fact we are working on the house together. Why all for the 26th?" FYI 26th is the day of the house warming/bday party.
W said "I want it to look presentable" and I replied "I want the home to look presentable for the 26tth as well but I also hope the improvements to our home extend beyond the 26th"
W did not reply.
I then said to W "The other day you made a comment to me 'I do things to see how you react' what is the purpose of that? When we spend time together I do everything to ensure it is a good time"
W replied "I do it to see if you really changed. When someone loves and cares for another person it does not matter how they communicate and all you do is want to govern what I say. You always controlled what I say and how I say it and I want to see if you changed."
I said "You are right , in the past, I did try to control and 'govern' what you said. "
I then said to W "I want to develop a healthy relationship and communication is key to doing so. Using sounds comes across as disrespectful"
W said "We never had a healthy relationship and what you think it best is not the same as I think. I know the whole healthy communication blah blah blah but that is not how I think. You did a lot to me in the past to make things this way and I don't think it will ever change."
W then went on to say "You done so much wrong in the past 10 years I can't ever trust you again. I trust you less than I would a complete stranger because I know you will do me wrong and I believe everything goes in a cycle and you'll do it again. I don't think you changed, I see no changes and even if you did change I don't think it will make a difference"
I then said to W "I can see why you would not trust me, I did say and do a lot of terrible things."
I then said to W "Marriage means a lot to me and I want to build a healthy strong marriage."
W said something I forget what at this point. I said to W "You right, maybe YOU will not see a change in me..." I said something along with this but don't recall right now
I said "Tell me 3 things right now that you do not like about me"
W said "1. I hate that you have false hope for the future. 2. I hate that you try to govern what I say.."
W did not give a 3rd reason.
I said "What do you mean false hope for the future?"
W said "You think that is we worked on our marriage together that everything will be great and it won't, you also think that it is all going to workout someday"
I said "I do think that working on the marriage together things will improve sooner and be a lot easier and the only hope I have for the future is that I am married to someone who loves and cares for me. It would be great if you are that someone."
I then said "You are right about me governing what you say, I can see how the way I was trying to improve our communication would come across as me trying to 'govern' the way you speak"
I said "I do not want to live in limbo and want to be in a healthy loving marriage."
I asked "What do you think would help improve things between us"
W said "For you to stop talking about it"
W just continued doing what she was doing and then I walked away
I know I should had never engaged in a R talk but it just happened. Most of what I said has been on my mind for a long time now and I just had to get it out.
I am not sure what to do at this point, what to say if anything. I feel as if I made things worse or at the very least pushed her away farther.
Where to go from here and how bad did I just make things.
Somewhere in there I referred to W and I living as roommates and I am not looking for a roommate but a W and W said "You made it this way"
W said "for you to stop talking about it" I think that is what you should have received from that. Also, never have a R talk during remodeling (decorating) etc...
Burt
Now I remember the 3rd thing W said she did not like about me...
W said "And I think you hide things from me"
I told W I hide absolutely nothing and if there is anything in question to just ask....W did not want to get into it she said "there are many things"
There came a point where W asked where I wanted the towel rack in the bathroom and I replied "Where ever you think it looks best" W got upset because earlier I said I did not like the towel rack where it currently was.
Well, she has a point here. You obviously do care, and if she had said let's put it back where it was and you don't want it, you'd be asking us what that meant.
W asked "What do you mean?" and I replied "DO you plan on leaving?" W said "I can't answer that right now"
Oh ye of little patience. You had to ask....
You have a misunderstanding, and it's all the way back to... "are you going to leave"?
Do you want her to stay, or are you now trying to drive her away?
W said "I want it to look presentable" and I replied "I want the home to look presentable for the 26tth as well but I also hope the improvements to our home extend beyond the 26th"
You are pressuring her. This is pursuing. Not attractive.
BTW, I think the 26th is a full moon eclipse (if she's into astrology).
I then said to W "The other day you made a comment to me '
More pressure.
W replied "I do it to see if you really changed.
She did it to see if you were going to try to pressure her.
When someone loves and cares for another person it does not matter how they communicate
This is not true.
and all you do is want to govern what I say. You always controlled what I say and how I say it and I want to see if you changed."
She wants to see if your changes--you are not being driven by fear to try and force her into a commitment--are real.
W said "You think that is we worked on our marriage together that everything will be great and it won't, you also think that it is all going to workout someday"
You've been tested (and tested and tested). You failed.
Where to go from here and how bad did I just make things.
You undid weeks of minor progress. I don't know how bad it's going to get. You cannot pressure somebody into doing something. It's not going to work, so stop trying to do that.
It's one thing to be assertive, but trying to force somebody to say or think something NEVER works.
Your right, I regret ever getting into the conversation, I should had just held it in and eventually blew it off at the gym or something.
I WILL NOT bring it up again to her. Do just continue as if the conversation did not happen and take with me the the knowledge of what she has said about her feelings?
No I do NOT want to drive her away, after thinking about what I said and re--read what I typed I can see where I was pressuring and driving her out the door.
should had just held it in
You shouldn't have to hold it in; you need to get to the point where you
understand that you are going to be OK with or without her, and only she can decide whether or not she is going to re-commit to this M.
Now, if you have had enough and want to bail, then that's another story, but if you are going to try to save your M, you have to understand that you cannot force somebody to make only choices you like.
and I should add... make these choices WHEN you want them made.
She can't make you choose to stay in this M or decide how long you will remain committed to it, and you can't rush her decission either.
Well just for OfficerInNeeds motivation.
I'm at a worse position than him in most respects. What has been happening is I have been calming myself, being less stern and strong in my communication and my wifes walls have been coming down slowly.
I still live outside of the residence. IN the last two weeks she is letting me "slap her on the ass", when I hug her - and just the other day she let me grab her chest and she made a joke about it that was not intended to maim. Her joke was something like "you just wanted to give me a hug so you can cop a feel", it was funny.
Anyway, I look forward to the day when I can have intercourse with my own wife again. When she desires her marriage and treats me well and defends me. When she gives me a good position as a man as with respect to her viewpoint.
The "ass slap" could have easily backfired, but it didn't and since that first one, I have been allowed inside that boundary when I want.
We also went to dinner last week, but she started to raise her walls on me and I went [censored] on her.
I still know I can get it back.
Anyway OfficerInNeed, I think you are doing real good, real respectful and responsible toward your relationship. Do something thats not supposed to be managed and neat like an "ass slap" or be seen naked by her on purpose.
Don't talk about the relationship. I think it raises guilt or makes them feel stupid. That same thing does not work for me.iu
W said "I want it to look presentable" and I replied "I want the home to look presentable for the 26tth as well but I also hope the improvements to our home extend beyond the 26th"
You are pressuring her. This is pursuing. Not attractive.
In addition to pursuing, it comes across as critical. What she's doing isn't good enough; there has to be more. Success is clearly defined as "keep it up past the 26th", so why should she even bother with this because the effort itself gets no credit,
If your wife feels you have a history of controlling, I'll lay odds that regardless of what you
said, the above is exactly what she heard.
You are right and i feel awful about the whole conversation. It is like I have to start DBing all over again from the beginning that all progress has been lost.
W has backed off entirely. W thinks that I think "there is hope." W thinks I try to govern or control what she says when I was only trying to establish better communication with her.
See, this is why I think it is very important you start doing things on your own for you and your own life. You and your spend so much time together and it gives her lots of chances to observe you and nit pick.
If you had your own thing going on you wouldn't feel the strong need to have a R talk because it would not all feel so pressing.
You have so many expectations and for the most part they seem to be worlds away from where your W is at. Another good reason to get out there on your own.
You still have been unable to break the pattern you have with your W. Unless you really change you and your life it will remain.
Also, you were not at the point yet to establish "better" communication. IMO it was more about establishing "civil and normal" communication. Nothing can be built on moans and grunts. That wasn't to improve anything. It was to hear words when you have a conversation which is the very basis of a conversation!
Your W doesn't respect you. She calls it governing what she says. I call it asking to be treated w/the same courtesy you would treat a store clerk. She doesn't respect you so she doesn't treat you w/common courtesy.
DB all over and this time GAL for you and limit the time you spend with her. She has told you to have no hope so proceed on with your own life.
Build up demand outside of the house and you will get lots of coochie in the house. No body has to cheat on their wife to get what they want. Teach her a lesson.
Build up demand outside of the house and you will get lots of coochie in the house. No body has to cheat on their wife to get what they want. Teach her a lesson.
bad idea. terrible. more of the same.
she told you straight up:
Now I remember the 3rd thing W said she did not like about me...
W said "And I think you hide things from me"
start pulling that stuff and you might as well give your wife the freedom to move on with her life without additional heartache.
--------
thank you for posting your conversation. I personally taught it read as being a very healthy conversation to have at the time. People need to let it out and need to be heard, and need to listen. It is healthy. Once you know what you need to know now. Let it sink in.
thus, A major take home point =
I asked "What do you think would help improve things between us"
W said "For you to stop talking about it"
So true. So many people talk about fog and their WAW spouse not making sense when they talk, but do you see the clarity in the above response. Can you understand the importance over the "long run?" I am not trying to beat you over the head with this as it reads like you truely understand, but I hope others who constantly berate their spouses with questions and arguments realize the importance.
--------
Can I ask you a question?
What is the difference between marriage and friendship with your wife?
Build up demand outside of the house and you will get lots of coochie in the house. No body has to cheat on their wife to get what they want. Teach her a lesson.
bad idea. terrible. more of the same.
she told you straight up:
Now I remember the 3rd thing W said she did not like about me...
W said "And I think you hide things from me"
start pulling that stuff and you might as well give your wife the freedom to move on with her life without additional heartache.
--------
thank you for posting your conversation. I personally taught it read as being a very healthy conversation to have at the time. People need to let it out and need to be heard, and need to listen. It is healthy. Once you know what you need to know now. Let it sink in.
thus, A major take home point =
I asked "What do you think would help improve things between us"
W said "For you to stop talking about it"
So true. So many people talk about fog and their WAW spouse not making sense when they talk, but do you see the clarity in the above response. Can you understand the importance over the "long run?" I am not trying to beat you over the head with this as it reads like you truely understand, but I hope others who constantly berate their spouses with questions and arguments realize the importance.
--------
Can I ask you a question?
What is the difference between marriage and friendship with your wife?
Thats a good question. How do you recover a friendship after a strong betrayal? We're not going to be passive and accomidating to our good buddy who set us back in so many ways. We could open the door for re-igniting the friendship after they have regained our trust in a variety of ways.
OfficerInNeed's wife has not shown herself yet to be reestablishing trust. I feel that she is gaining an advantage in having all the dedication and attention from her husband, calling the shots while giving very little back.
We cannot worry about that OfficerInNeed believes he was controlling earlier in life with this relationship, we have to worry about getting past the affair.
Some of my comments are searching for ways to re-establish her interest in her marriage. Some of the ways of doing this are not nice.
--------
Can I ask you a question?
What is the difference between marriage and friendship with your wife?
--------
Can I ask you a question?
What is the difference between marriage and friendship with your wife?
Is puppy saying that if he just stayed friends with her he would still be getting sex, and marriage put an end to that?
Thats funny.
Is puppy saying that if he just stayed friends with her he would still be getting sex, and marriage put an end to that?
Thats funny.
No, I'm not. I'm answering the question posited. Sexual intimacy is the ONE THING that separates the husband-wife relationship from all others: best friends, brother/sister, etc.
Puppy
Puppy,
If we were not married, we would be having sex with some of our female friends. Also some of those female friends would get pretty close to us, being dependable, reliable, even thoughtful.
Other of those friends would maintain the distance where the sex is just sex.
In my situation and I'm sure others sex after the marriage license was signed slowed down and it got to zero today.
Marriage is supposed to be a very important friendship, where trust is at the utmost.
No, I'm not. I'm answering the question posited. Sexual intimacy is the ONE THING that separates the husband-wife relationship from all others: best friends, brother/sister, etc.
eros love vs philia love or agape love. you need all of them in a marriage but eros love is the kicker.
Where's Kalni when you need her?
start pulling that stuff and you might as well give your wife the freedom to move on with her life without additional heartache.
This is all in my W's head. My W would not say what I have done or do that leads her to believe this, if she told me I could certainly rectify the matter and address any of her concerns.
thank you for posting your conversation. I personally taught it read as being a very healthy conversation to have at the time. People need to let it out and need to be heard, and need to listen. It is healthy. Once you know what you need to know now. Let it sink in.
Although I did not intend to initiate a R talk and I could have chose my words better, it enabled me to get more of an understanding of where my W is at right now. A month ago W would had said "I am still leaving" but when I asked W said "I can't say right now" even though she has not affirmed anything new about our M it will help my DB efforts if she remains in the same home as me.
Can I ask you a question?
What is the difference between marriage and friendship with your wife?
What PDT said BUT to be honest I cannot answer this question. Before our sitch I had a different outlook on marriage. It is no secrete and had been alluded too many times on this forum that the relationship W and I had was more along the lines of father-daughter. I NOW have a NEW outlook on marriage (healthy marriage) and want to build a friendship withing our M/R.
My W does not have the privilege and knowledge of how healthy relationships work. I am W's only relationship beyond her EA and therefore she does not understand the approach I am taking. While I read DR and other relationship building books and follow posts/advice on these forums where I learn how to communicate, earn respect, build, not pressure or pursue, W have a different take on what works in a R, none of it seems logical compared to the aforementioned but it is the only way she knows but WILL NOT participate in any sort of therapy.
=====================
As for today:
W and I went out and got some things we needed for the house.
We did some work around the house without incident.
W did respond with hmm or umm hmmm but now I think she is doing it purposely, so I will ignore it.
W had her moments where she seemed distant, I think much of her negative attitude has a lot to do with the conversation that took place yesterday.
I am going back to my old threads and re-reading advice given to help build better interactions.
Yesterday:
W was running late for work and asked if I could help her downstairs getting things together. I assisted W gather her things for work. As W was leaving I said "bye" and W said same in return.
While W was at work I started to do some work around the house preparing for the 26th. I then took a break to let the dog out back and filled up the dog's little pool. I was fooling around with the dog in the backyard as W returned home from work. W watched us from the back door and after I spotted her she came out.
W then went back in to change and returned. We each started to play with the dog with water. It then turned into a mini water war.
We eventually called it quits and headed inside. We had noticed we are getting new neighbors. W and I started to talk about how it is good to see neighbors move in that have kids. I made the comment "I think those are the grandparents" and W replied "It is possible but some people do have children later in life" and I said "true, I want to have children while I am still young". W then looked at me and said "you're 27, you'll be 28 this year, lets say YOU have a child when you're 30, when that child turns 10 you'll be 40" and I said "never knew 40 was 'too old'" and W just shrugged her shoulders.
So now W thinks I am getting 'too old' to have children. W is only 2 years younger than I am. W was had EA with someone 10 years older than she is. This really bothered me. there are many things I wanted to say but refrained from doing so because it would not help in any case.
W expressed how she had a terrible head ache. W wanted to rest for a bit before we left and got the remaining items on our list for the 26th.
W went to bed and asked that I wake her up in a half hour. 40 min had passed I let W know but she was still not feeling so well, she now had a migraine headache.
W was just prescribed new meds for migraines and so she took a pill. W was laying in bed across rather then how you would normally lay in a bed. I sat in bed going over our list of things to do and eventually laid back myself resting my head on W. W did not oppose or nudge me away as she had in the past (I had not tried such a thing in a few months). I decided to take it a step further and place my had on W's. W immediately balled her fist and pulled away. W said "It's too warm" and then rolled over. I got up and decided to go do some more work around the house.
Some time had past W still sleeping. W did not get any better and so she decided she was not up to doing anything today. I continued the work I was doing, finished up on a few things and decided to relax. Once again I laid in bed, rest head on W with no objection.
W eventually woke up, we sat up in bed talking (about how W felt, things I had accomplished ect..) as we were talking I had my arm rested on W's leg with no objection.
W had got out of bed, still suffering from her headache and took a look at what I had done and helped clean up some around the house before she went to shower.
We came out shower laid in bed, we watched a little TV and she went to bed.
---------------------------
I don't know if what I did was pursuit. I can remember back when our sitch first began and I did the same things with the same reaction from W. She allowed it but it was not reciprocated. This is even before I discovered DR and this forum.
After a while W started to nudge me away or get aggravated when I made such attempts. Eventually I got the point and after reading DR stopped doing it all together up till last night.
For so long I'd refrain from doing things out of fear of pressuring my W and I took a risk today, although she did not object I am concerned it was pressure.
I don't want W to think that I think everything is OK between us that I can just do these things...
Also I know I should be spending less time with my W and doing more things on my own and I will. At least for now and up till the 26th I cannot step around doing things with the W.
I don't want W to think that I think everything is OK between us that I can just do these things...
Thus the reason so many WAW's are cold to the H's touch. If she let you do 1, then you want to move to 2, and if she had let you do that without objection...you would have proceeded to 3. She knows that and she's not ready.
Yesterday was the big day and what a NIGHTMARE it was!
I took this as the opportunity to reconnect with W and create good memories.
For the most part things went well for the past three weeks. We had our moments where W would be cold and short with me but we kept moving forward.
We were both very stressed because we had so much to do and did not think we would have the house ready in time. The heat and the combination of all else going on must had got to us.
Yesterday, I stayed up after returning home from a 12 hour work shift to finish painting and get things ready. W came home form work early and we got to work.
At one point W and I had to go next door and bring over some tables we were borrowing. While there W decided to pick up the phone. If you been following the sitch you may recall over a month ago I used this phone to call OM/OMW and it made W very upset. W went into the phone and seen the same number and got VERY UPSET and after all hell broke loss.
W thought I had dialed the number again but she was mistaken. She is looking at the same log as she had over a month that we had already discussed. So now I am being blamed for something I already took the blame for.
W then started to bring up the whole OM/OMW situation. I told W that I do no communicate with either of them, W doe snot believe me she thinks I am still talking to OMW (I am not). I started to call W out on some things that she denied but I gave her the facts and not my resources, W still denied.
W then threatened to cancel the party, I told her "If that's what you want to do" W pretended to txt her father (she did this a few times actually) W would pretend to txt FIL then go back to cleaning so I would say "Don't worry about the mess I will get to it in a little bit" but she would carry on cleaning.
W started to play word games "That is why I always asked what do YOU want" when we are deciding on things because when she leaves I can't say "but I thought we were improving our home together" This is also foolishness because W picked out and purchased many things for the home without my opinion.
I called W out on the way she spoke to me and this facade she is putting on for her family. W then claimed her family already knew she was leaving me and that they are just being respectful. I told W that I cannot see her family carry on pretending as if things are good like that and called her out on it.
W then tried to proof her point by throwing and shattering a vase we were given as a gift for our wedding day that was signed by all our guest. We just baked it a few days ago so we could preserve the signature. She took it even further and went out to our living room and took a picture of us off our shelf and ripped it into pieces. W then started to dig into the past 10 years and everything I have ever done wrong to her.
I admit in the heat of the moment I lashed back, but always with the mindset of I am working on this marriage and will continue to do so with or without her help.
I cannot recall everything we said and maybe I should had just stopped and walked away. I almost left the house a few times but I knew she did not cancel the party and there was still work to do and so I finished the work.
W said things like "too little too late" , "go make someone else happy" , "Life is unfair and you'll learn that soon" , "your just wasting your time, this marriage is nothing" you name it she said it.
Some how it turned into a brief R talk.
Things settled down we got back to work, I was very upset with the broken items. As we were cleaning W tells me "My family does not know but my dad knows EVERYTHING, I just asked him out of respect don't tell the family" then W went on to quote that FIL said "It's you decision just remember when you wake up beside that person 30 years from now and you look back will you be happy" or something clever along those lines. W and I had got into it about FIL giving advice based on her divorce experience.
Just before the party started we got into an exchange again and I told W "I will NOT be a doormat for you to walk all over" W just responded as typical "OH your right, I am the one who always does wrong, just like in the past 10 years so today is no different"
Things settled down again, people started to show up, W throw wedding ring on and the show began. W is now all smiles. We got many great comments on how beautiful our home is ect...FIL brought US a house warming gift which I found very odd seeing that W is leaving the house. FIL also made the comment "I have to come back over and redo that wall for you guys, I did a terrible job patching that up"
Rest of the night went well but stupid me upset about earlier made some dump comments to W such as "OK people are showing up, do I pretend we are married or divorced."
There were a few times where I tried to be husband like and W got upset or felt uncomfortable and I said "I am still your husband" and W replied "Yes your my husband but that is just a title right now"
I said and did somethings that go against the DB approach. W was telling me how validating her feeling are annoying to her.
I started to lay things out there. Things that might be considered pursuit but its is what she knows and understands. I also told her that we should sit down and have a talk, W said we can but not right now.
Also somewhere in there I said "I married you for better or for worse not until someone better comes along" I also said (probably pursuing) "For 10 years you say I treated you terribly and we made it this far" W said "Yes, that was a mistake and I thought you would change, waste of my fathers money" I replied "We were married 4 months when you decided you had enough and told me you were leaving because things remained the same and then change occurred" W just said "too little too late"
Last night and this morning we had better interactions. I know DB is about what works and GAL. What do you do when you feel like some pursuit actually works? I thought what I was doing was working but W called me out on some of it and called it annoying.
I need to rethink my approach and determine how I shall proceed. I still want to save this marriage.
W then tried to proof her point by throwing and shattering a vase we were given as a gift for our wedding day that was signed by all our guest. We just baked it a few days ago so we could preserve the signature. She took it even further and went out to our living room and took a picture of us off our shelf and ripped it into pieces.
From this point on, OIN, by putting up with all of that and going ahead with the party, you just told her you "WILL be a doormat for her to talk all over," I'm afraid. Your speeches to her are great, but by putting up with her poor BEHAVIOR, you simply ENABLE it.
My jaw just dropped reading your post, when I saw that you went ahead with everything after what she pulled. Wow.
Puppy
PDT,
I went through with the party not for my W sake but because it was also a house warming party so it did benefit me as well. Also me calling her family and telling them no party validates what W says about me and if W called she would tell them I wanted to cancel and make me out to be the villain. Also it is my W I have an issue with not her family, they love me and I enjoy them.
Also this morning W was watching TV and seen commercial for a new mop/vacuum in one and W asked "I know we have a lot swifters but do you think that would work for the floors?" and I replied in a calm tone "I'm not sure what kind of floors you have" W just shook her head and turned back to face the TV.
Being snarky and rude is one thing but becoming violent (throwing glass) and destroying property (tearing up photos) is something different. IMO you should have called and cancelled the party and if they asked why call your W out on her behavior.
"I am sorry but I have decided to cancel the party. W has destroyed property and endangered me by throwing glass and today is not a good day for a celebration"
Period.
Considering your W didn't even want YOUR family at the party yet asked you to bust your ass getting the house ready for HER family ONLY.
Your W is a typical WAS. Don't indulge her further like you did this morning with the comment about the mop and her floors. All you are doing is fueling this negative dynamic.
she has the other place ready,
ask her to leave,
seriously she won't know what she has in you until you're gone and YOU need to be the one that makes that decision instead of allowing all of this to be her decision.
Is this really the person you want to live with and be with?
Someone who flakes out every other hour/every other day and then totally forgets about what they've done?
She smashed personal property, ripped pictures, totally rejects you regularly, makes you jump through hoops to prove yourself and you continue to kiss her ass during this entire process.
I get it, you want to stand up for your marriage, you want to prove your honor and integrity in this process, show you've changed, etc.
But seriously, all you're showing is that you're a punching bag, whenever she gets angry, goes batshitcrazy, you'll be there to clean up the mess, take the hit and brush it off like nothing happened and nobody is that selfless, these things did happen and they'll continue to happen until you stand up for yourself and admit to yourself that this kind of treatment is not good enough, you're settling for crap behavior and a woman can't love a man she can't respect and your wife doesn't respect you at all and the proof of this is in all of these childish, disrespectful, hurtful actions she commits against you to hurt you because she knows you love her and will do anything to not lose her - that last part she knows, you will do anything not to lose her and guess what, she can't respect that, no one could. And because she can't respect you, she definitely can't love you and she'll definitely continue to treat you poorly, feed you this crap behavior and you'll continue to eat it until you realize it tastes like crap.
Give her the WAS speech.
I know for you it will be the hardest thing to do because its counter intuitive, you don't want to lose her yet holding on to her the way you do is not working, that's the reality of your situation and you're efforts aren't working, if anything she's getting worse, not better.
Tell her you've had enough, her behavior before/during the party, smashing property, ripping pictures, all these attempts to hurt you, you've had enough of all of it. You tried your best showing her that you can be loving, caring, attentive, you took her poor actions and abuse and kept showing her that you will love her despite her crap behavior and it isn't working for you anymore, if she is really that unhappy with you, if she really doesn't love you anymore, if this is the kind of life you can expect to have with someone who doesn't want to commit 110% wholeheartedly to rebuilding your marriage and relationship into something different and better then this isn't what you want because what you want matters as well, it isn't all about her, if a relationship isn't mutually beneficial and the people involved aren't going to do what's right to make it better then it's time to call "GAME OVER" and let her go so that you can move on with your life. She has her own place, tell her that you will offer to help her pack and move her stuff and you will get a lawyer and proceed with filing for divorce.
Either that or prepare for this to continue happening until she's ready to call "GAME OVER".
You didn't wake up until she dropped the bomb to begin with, that's when fear of loss and crisis prompted you to action, maybe it's time you gave her the same thing. In fact, I'll go as far to say that until you do this, nothing in your situation will change. Let her go and mean it, if you want her to come back with the right attitude.
Just my 0.02 cents, something to think about.
Tell her you've had enough, her behavior before/during the party, smashing property, ripping pictures, all these attempts to hurt you, you've had enough of all of it. You tried your best showing her that you can be loving, caring, attentive, you took her poor actions and abuse and kept showing her that you will love her despite her crap behavior and it isn't working for you anymore, if she is really that unhappy with you, if she really doesn't love you anymore, if this is the kind of life you can expect to have with someone who doesn't want to commit 110% wholeheartedly to rebuilding your marriage and relationship into something different and better then this isn't what you want because what you want matters as well, it isn't all about her, if a relationship isn't mutually beneficial and the people involved aren't going to do what's right to make it better then it's time to call "GAME OVER" and let her go so that you can move on with your life. She has her own place, tell her that you will offer to help her pack and move her stuff and you will get a lawyer and proceed with filing for divorce.
Either that or prepare for this to continue happening until she's ready to call "GAME OVER".
You didn't wake up until she dropped the bomb to begin with, that's when fear of loss and crisis prompted you to action, maybe it's time you gave her the same thing. In fact, I'll go as far to say that until you do this, nothing in your situation will change. Let her go and mean it, if you want her to come back with the right attitude.
Quoted because it deserved repeating and so you can read it again.
she has the other place ready,
ask her to leave,
seriously she won't know what she has in you until you're gone and YOU need to be the one that makes that decision instead of allowing all of this to be her decision.
Is this really the person you want to live with and be with?
Someone who flakes out every other hour/every other day and then totally forgets about what they've done?
She smashed personal property, ripped pictures, totally rejects you regularly, makes you jump through hoops to prove yourself and you continue to kiss her ass during this entire process.
I get it, you want to stand up for your marriage, you want to prove your honor and integrity in this process, show you've changed, etc.
But seriously, all you're showing is that you're a punching bag, whenever she gets angry, goes batshitcrazy, you'll be there to clean up the mess, take the hit and brush it off like nothing happened and nobody is that selfless, these things did happen and they'll continue to happen until you stand up for yourself and admit to yourself that this kind of treatment is not good enough, you're settling for crap behavior and a woman can't love a man she can't respect and your wife doesn't respect you at all and the proof of this is in all of these childish, disrespectful, hurtful actions she commits against you to hurt you because she knows you love her and will do anything to not lose her - that last part she knows, you will do anything not to lose her and guess what, she can't respect that, no one could. And because she can't respect you, she definitely can't love you and she'll definitely continue to treat you poorly, feed you this crap behavior and you'll continue to eat it until you realize it tastes like crap.
Give her the WAS speech.
I know for you it will be the hardest thing to do because its counter intuitive, you don't want to lose her yet holding on to her the way you do is not working, that's the reality of your situation and you're efforts aren't working, if anything she's getting worse, not better.
Tell her you've had enough, her behavior before/during the party, smashing property, ripping pictures, all these attempts to hurt you, you've had enough of all of it. You tried your best showing her that you can be loving, caring, attentive, you took her poor actions and abuse and kept showing her that you will love her despite her crap behavior and it isn't working for you anymore, if she is really that unhappy with you, if she really doesn't love you anymore, if this is the kind of life you can expect to have with someone who doesn't want to commit 110% wholeheartedly to rebuilding your marriage and relationship into something different and better then this isn't what you want because what you want matters as well, it isn't all about her, if a relationship isn't mutually beneficial and the people involved aren't going to do what's right to make it better then it's time to call "GAME OVER" and let her go so that you can move on with your life. She has her own place, tell her that you will offer to help her pack and move her stuff and you will get a lawyer and proceed with filing for divorce.
Either that or prepare for this to continue happening until she's ready to call "GAME OVER".
You didn't wake up until she dropped the bomb to begin with, that's when fear of loss and crisis prompted you to action, maybe it's time you gave her the same thing. In fact, I'll go as far to say that until you do this, nothing in your situation will change. Let her go and mean it, if you want her to come back with the right attitude.
Just my 0.02 cents, something to think about.
Puppy
OK help me out here. I thought what I was doing was working and for the most part it seemed to until yesterday.
Today we had some pleasant exchanges and I decided to pursue her and it backfired.
I asked "Would it be possible to sit down and talk about possibilities?"
and W responded "I don't think it is going to work"
I replied and asked "Do you want it to work?"
W said "Does not matter if I want it to or not it just won't" W then went on to say "I can never forgive you or forget what you done and I can't ever be happy with you"
I said "There is a difference between not wanting it to work and don't think it is going to work. I did not ever think we would be in this situation but here we are"
W then said "I am annoyed and aggravated by being here, I am not happy" I said "If there is a the slightest bit of want then that is something we can build on." W said "NO"
I said to W "Walking out the door and leaving this house and our marriage might bring short term happiness but will not make either one of us happy long term"
W said "Maybe your right but I am not thinking about the long term right now" I then asked W "If you honestly do not want to spend the remainder of your life with me in it look me in my eyes and say do"
W refused to reply or even look at me" I then said "If that is what you truly want, a divorce" W looked at me and said "I do want a divorce" and I said "and to spend your life without me?"
W replied "I can't tell you want I want after that" I said to W "I do not thing of a future beyond this marriage, I never had" W said "Well that is your problem" I then replied "Tell me that you don't want to spend your life with me" W looked at me and then turned away....
OK so there it was and all it's pursuing glory.
I need help. Yes I want our marriage to work out. W still not willing to work on it.
W does NOT have a home to move into right now and may not for another couple months. up till yesterday for a 4 week span W said nothing about leaving she spoke as if she was willing to stay and eventually work it out.
I need help on "moving on" without being an a,ss. What scripts do I use without being a jerk. Can I give the WAW speech via letter as opposed to telling her face to face? I know she wont listen and she probably wont read it either but it's a shot.
It sucks because what she is doing now I have done before (breaking things around the home that had more than monetary value). So she could use that as a script against anything I say.
I am confused at the moment.
Also I cannot make her leave, she is co-owner of the home, and as stated in the past We own a side by side duplex and rent the other side out to my parents, so I am not leaving.
OIN,
Robx gave you the script, just above. You're not confused; you're just unwilling. If you're worried more about coming across like a "jerk" or an "ass" than you are about your own happiness and emotional health, then you're just not getting it.
Reading your exchanges is just . . . painful.
Puppy
OK so there it was and all it's pursuing glory.
OIN, if you know it's pursuing, and you know purusing is anti-DB, then why do you do it, and why are you here?That's not me yanking your chain, that's a serious question.
Puppy
PDT,
I get many mixed signals from W. Then sometimes I am certain this marriage cannot be saved and then again it could all be WAW script. I get too caught up in her word play and over/under analyze so many things. I am having trouble detaching the proper way. I have not completely read but will continue to read the book I have on co-dependency.
I tried pursuit because sometimes W would tell me in not so many words she wanted someone who said 'this' or did 'that' or felt a certain 'way' no matter what. I did, it failed I will not do it again.
I can tell you what is going to happen. W is going to wake up in the morning and tell me she is leaving for work. I a going to stay in bed rather than go downstairs with her. W will txt me that she "made it safe" ( I know we been through this before about the text messages in my threads, she just does it even though I told her she did not have to) I will reply "good." W will then txt me once she gets out of work. I would will text "OK"
W will come home, get changed and get ready for her Dr. apt.
Unfortunately most of the times when I just go about my own business W things I have an attitude and starts saying things like "whatever" she expects for me to be pleasant and talkative not matter what and sometimes I have a hard time doing it because I have not learned to detach properly.
Should I not be home when W gets home? That would be a first besides the days I go to church.
I think that's a splendid idea!
Clearly, it is time to try something different, OIN.
Puppy
OIN, why do you text her back? She wants a divorce, she doesn't want you in her life. Let her see what that looks like. You told her she doesn't have to text you and still she does. Do you have to respond to her texts? What will she do if you don't respond to her? Divorce you? She is already threatening that so how could it get worse if you don't text her back. Let her rage and spew all over and either walk away or tell her that you will talk to her when she can speak to you in a respectful way.
Wouldn't this be something different to try? If you're going to do it just be consistent.
OK help me out here. I thought what I was doing was working and for the most part it seemed to until yesterday.
I wanted to come back to this, OIN, and I'm NOT just being snarky or 2x4ish here:
This, to me, is where you are stuck, and is the heart of your problem. Because for MONTHS, various posters from varying backgrounds and philosophies have all pretty much told you that it's NOT working.
And yet you keep on saying that it IS.
And this pretty much is key, because I can see that -- if I were you -- and if I DID think that what I was doing was working, I wouldn't want to try any of the tougher things that other people were recommending to me, either.
I think you REALLLY need to put some hard thought in the next couple of days into what your metrics of "success" are. Because I don't think this is working whatsoever.
Again, I say this not to DISCOURAGE you, but you ENCOURAGE you . . . encourage you to TRY SOMETHING DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT!!!
Puppy
I know. It would be so much easier if I had not done all those things before our sitch began. I did not always text her back but she always faithfully text me. There were times I treated her not so kind and said to her "You're a terrible W" or I would say to her in not so many words that I did not want to be with her anymore and I did it just to say it, when I said and did these things it was either out of anger or me just playing mind games with her.
So if I start to ignore her text messages, yes it will be different from the approach I have not but not different from the person I was before.
We do have moments where we are civil with one another, and extend courtesy. Today we did some baking together, W offered me a beverage and we had civil conversations. Actually it was pretty good until I brought up the R-talk. I was not getting any "hmmmmms" "huhs" ect...actual conversations. We sat and read her b-day cards. I blew it today, she was actually doing pretty well and I brought up the R.
I will be courteous. I will be pleasant. I wont bring up R any longer. I will make myself more scarce, I will start hitting the gym again and make it during times where we would otherwise be in the house together just sitting around. I will still sleep in the same bed as her. I won't ask her to do anything any longer unless she brings it up first.
Should I write her an email or letter giving the WAW speech?
Should I write her an email or letter giving the WAW speech?
What for?
The situation has spun completely out of control, and so now you want to control it?
Motives are as important as actions in this case. I know you want to save your M, but you aren't going to do it by controlling anything but yourself.
Timing and being genuine are important.
The next time you are being threatened if you can say "I have had enough" and mean it while still being open to things improving, then that's different.
You are coming on here, you are insecure, and you are just a tad bit desperate sounding in your posts right now. I am thinking that is the wrong state of mind to make a stand.
OK help me out here. I thought what I was doing was working and for the most part it seemed to until yesterday.
I wanted to come back to this, OIN, and I'm NOT just being snarky or 2x4ish here:
This, to me, is where you are stuck, and is the heart of your problem. Because for MONTHS, various posters from varying backgrounds and philosophies have all pretty much told you that it's NOT working.
And yet you keep on saying that it IS.
And this pretty much is key, because I can see that -- if I were you -- and if I DID think that what I was doing was working, I wouldn't want to try any of the tougher things that other people were recommending to me, either.
I think you REALLLY need to put some hard thought in the next couple of days into what your metrics of "success" are. Because I don't think this is working whatsoever.
Again, I say this not to DISCOURAGE you, but you ENCOURAGE you . . . encourage you to TRY SOMETHING DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT!!!
Puppy
Well I say this because, I look back on where we were then and now. Things were better up till yesterday then they had been months ago. I took little things as a sign of improvement such as W sleeping in same bed and I and letting go and throwing out old bed set. Where months ago she refused to sleep in same room as me. One point W had abandoned everything to do with our house and if I brought up any decision making about an improvement or change she would tell me that she was leaving and now where she herself speaks and follows through with home improvements.
Not much but a step in the right direction. I still think there were somethings I was doing right. There were others things I was doing as some have suggested and they came across as annoying and controlling.
I did not ever think W would escalate this to the point were she would break something of such sentimental value to proof a point.
Should I write her an email or letter giving the WAW speech?
What for?
The situation has spun completely out of control, and so now you want to control it?
Motives are as important as actions in this case. I know you want to save your M, but you aren't going to do it by controlling anything but yourself.
Timing and being genuine are important.
The next time you are being threatened if you can say "I have had enough" and mean it while still being open to things improving, then that's different.
You are coming on here, you are insecure, and you are just a tad bit desperate sounding in your posts right now. I am thinking that is the wrong state of mind to make a stand.
Well because it was just suggested that I had the "WAW speech" and was provided a script so I wanted to know the opinion of that same poster if he thinks writing/typing it would be as effective as saying it due to my W not wanting to hear me talk about our R.
I have told W "I had enough" or that "I am tired of you disrespecting me" and "I won't be a doormat" W just flips it around on me and bring up 10 years.
Yes I admit I do sound desperate and I am sure I come across the same to my W. I had to days of huge R talk mistakes. I am just venting and trying to regroup and go back in DB in a more effective manner.
Here's my honest take on where a good place to be emotionally when things like vase smashing and talk of not being able to forgive you happen:
1. Your first thought is, "I don't care if you cannot forgive me because I am changing, and I have forgiven myself, and at least I wasn't cheating and blaming you for doing it".
2. Your first words are, "If you are going to act like this, then you are right: this isn't going to work".
I don't think it was suggeted you "email" this.
It's a script of sorts for when you are under attack. I think it matters if you really feel it though, and if you send off an email, it might come across like you were sitting here and stewing over it, and then came up with that. A tad bit artificial IMO.
I think you should look her in the eyes when she is saying it's over, and then calmly be able to say it's not going to work if there is going to be cheating, smashing of things, and boundless resentment.
OK.
If I don't bring up R talk my W wont either and that is where I went wrong yesterday.
So to be able to utilize that script I have to just come out and say it.
Now usually, when W brings up leaving/divorce, respond with a constructive positive response like "that will not bring long term happiness" or "I will continue to work on this marriage myself but it would be much easier and faster if we worked together" these constructive snippets came at the suggesting of a DBer who, from what I read, normally suggest the tough approach.
I have not really attempted the counter intuitive responses and when I did I failed at making it sound sincere but came off as a jerk instead.
Now usually, when W brings up leaving/divorce, respond with a constructive positive response like "that will not bring long term happiness" or "I will continue to work on this marriage myself but it would be much easier and faster if we worked together" these constructive snippets came at the suggesting of a DBer who, from what I read, normally suggest the tough approach.
This is where I disagree with Allen, OIN, for whom I have the utmost respect. As pro-marriage as I am, I just think there comes a point where "enough is enough," where the emotional damage by staying outweighs the fight for the marriage. And you get the DOUBLE benefit of that it can be THE most powerful weapon in your arsenal (but one that you CANNOT bluff, you must TRULY be ready to walk).
Only you will know when you're at that point.
Puppy
This is tough because we still live together. I cannot force her out either. I don't want her out but I also don't want this sitch to continue as it has. I am not willing to be the one to file for separation and D, I want her to do all the work, if that is what she truly wants.
For someone who wants a D she certainly put on a great front when family is around. W said that FIL knows all about her plans of leaving and I don't doubt he does but he too is putting on a great front because here he was in our home talking about how he would like to help improve it and W having conversations to FIL about same.
I think first it will help to do what CG has suggested all along and is to make myself less available and not allow W so much time to observe me. This will also help me detach and maybe then the idea you and a few others suggest will be easier for me.
[quote=OfficerInNeed]
I think first it will help to do what CG has suggested all along and is to make myself less available and not allow W so much time to observe me. This will also help me detach and maybe then the idea you and a few others suggest will be easier for me. [/quote
Well, that's the GOOD news, OIN. Because there are a whole host of things like that that you haven't tried yet, you do have some "middle ground" you can plow. I pray it will be fertile for you, and you won't have to resort to more drastic measures perhaps.
Puppy
The WAW speech is,
"I need to run to the store for a pack of smokes (or a 1/2 gallon of milk, or I need to run to so-n-so's house, etc) I'll be back in 15 minutes."
Then you come back at 1 or 2 in the morning. and say, "oh, I lost track of time. why do you always have to argue and control me."
The WAW speech?
Words don't mean a damn thing. Right? if you are actually walking away, they won't believe anything you say and only half of what you do anyway. Right? Isn't that what half of this board lives by?
And if you really "love them but ain't in love with them anymore" do you have anything to say to them other than a look that says (why are you still in my live) it all.
Otherwise, you aren't walking away. Words. Words. Words. You still are emotionally attached; you are just pretending.
What speech were you given, if any? or was it more of a cold shoulder and repeated rejected requests for sex and all the time and energy she use to spend talking, and dreaming and waiting for you is now funneled elsewhere. Actions.
Some people talk about fighting emotion with logic and how that clearly doesn't work, but I think it is important to take that 1 step further in many of these cases, in that, it seems alot of the time men like to ARGUE what is so good about a relationship when their wife, girl-friend, partner doesn't see it or want to see it and has had enough, specifically the arguing and the trying to control the relationship by continuing it. That needs to stop. Do you ever read other peoples threads on here, specifically men who write, "I never say it coming. She never said anything. For the past six months she has been emotionally distant and cold. Now she is talking/seeing/dating ..."
Actions that break hearts. That is the WAW speech.
W said things like "too little too late" , "go make someone else happy" , "Life is unfair and you'll learn that soon" , "your just wasting your time, this marriage is nothing" you name it she said it.
she said it. but more importantly how does it make you feel? what is your gut reaction to this? what needs to be done so you don't hear it again?
. . . it seems alot of the time men like to ARGUE what is so good about a relationship when their wife, girl-friend, partner doesn't see it or want to see it and has had enough, specifically the arguing and the trying to control the relationship by continuing it. That needs to stop. Do you ever read other peoples threads on here, specifically men who write, "I never say it coming. She never said anything. For the past six months she has been emotionally distant and cold. Now she is talking/seeing/dating ..."
Actions that break hearts. That is the WAW speech.
Puppy
W said things like "too little too late" , "go make someone else happy" , "Life is unfair and you'll learn that soon" , "your just wasting your time, this marriage is nothing" you name it she said it.
she said it. but more importantly how does it make you feel? what is your gut reaction to this? what needs to be done so you don't hear it again?
Too many of these excuses are cliches. Yes it sounds good, but its bullshit.
W said things like "too little too late" , "go make someone else happy" , "Life is unfair and you'll learn that soon" , "your just wasting your time, this marriage is nothing" you name it she said it.
she said it. but more importantly how does it make you feel? what is your gut reaction to this? what needs to be done so you don't hear it again?
Well it use to make me feel as if all hope is gone and that I had to do something to fix it. I still get that feeling but it lasts very briefly and I get upset in a sense. Yes, W claims she put up with it for 10 years and only after she dropped the bomb did I begin to change but the fact is I made the changes and now that is not good enough for my W.
What gets to me the most is our home is a very inviting place. We worked very hard to get it to where it is now. Up till a two days ago R talk is something I had not initiated since I found this forum and DR book. For the most part the only negativity here was that in which my W projected. So needless to say I tried to make being at home pleasant experience for her. Last night she tells me "I cannot stand being here, I am annoyed and aggravated"
As for today.
W left for work told me she was leaving and I said "OK, bye" and W left.
W arrived at work and as per HER routine txt me, I did not respond. W later txt me to tell me her Dr. apt. was rescheduled for a sooner time. I simply responded "OK"
W then txt me she was on her way home which I did not expect I thought she would go straight to the DR. from work. So I responded back "OK, leaving now actually"
W returned home and txt me "Where did you have to go? Are you going to be home before I leave?" i asked "When are you leaving" W replied with the time and I said in response "No sorry, thought you were going straight to Dr from work" W replied "No"
End of conversation. I am not sure why she wanted to know if I would be home before she left. I decided to go get my oil changed and I held off to make sure I did not return home before she left.
I'd suggest not coming home until about 11pm tonite.
lol and do what during that time? I am home now, she is still at dr and we have remained in contact...She had text me about what Dr. said and that she will be a while due to they are hooking her up to IV.
I would follow that advice if I knew what I could do for the next 7-8 hours.
It is funny in a way...This approach is same reason why I am in this sitch. Going out doing things and involving W as little as possible left a void and the result she "feel out of love" with me and confide in someone else to fill that void. I understand by doing this I will give W the opportunity to "miss me" and more importantly GAL.
take the dog to the ridge, hike around, stop by mia's on the way back, order a stuffed pepper pizza, hang out on the deck, lose yourself for a while...
Just for your own sanity and some space I do still think it is a good idea for you to not spend so much time with her.
When my H and I were first married (and while we were engaged) we lived together, worked together, carpooled together to and from work, ate lunch together each day and did everything socially together. Now it wasn't bad then because everything was new and fun but I am VERY glad I ended up getting a different job. It was just too much together time even though we were young and in love.
I think part of the reason you are having trouble detaching is you only see happiness for your future if you are married to your W. If your W walked out tomorrow for good and never turned back you eventually would be happy again and honestly, it would probably be best if you could learn to be happy on your own (IOW: not in another R right away).
You have to find ways to fill your time away from the house and your W doing things you enjoy and IMO it should be more than going to the gym or doing errands.
Often times I am regulated to my house or weeks on end due to infection. It can make a person crazy. If I had to be with my H while trapped in my house I would lose my mind (more than I already have, lol!).
When you feel you cannot detach it is really fear based. And fear is "False Emotions Appearing Real".
I think in healthy marriages a certain level of detachment is necessary anyhow.
I'd suggest not coming home until about 11pm tonite.
Right,
He should be doing this about 3 to 4 nights a week. I'd be somewhere you see people. LIke I have been saying, she's been getting a bunch of focused and dedicated attention and having to give nothing for it. He's been getting fed a bunch of crap. Enjoy life, and if the wife is around to enjoy it with you she will.
Alright.
So I called a friend and he invited me over, I decided to go. I txt W "Leaving." So there were not surprises when she returned home. Just before I left W and I were exchanging quite a few txt messages about what the Dr. told her ect.
I left went to friends house. After being there for about 45 min W decided to call me. W called me and said "I just want to let you know I am home" then I asked W how it went at the doctor and she then explained a little in detail about her visit and the meds she was prescribed. I then ended the conversation by saying "Alright, I will let you go" and we each exchanged "bye" but W sounded to me depressed should I say, not happy, not mad just upset.
I assumed W slept the whole time I was gone because when I returned home just about 10 min ago and she was in bed sleeping. I said nothing to her, just walked in the room and grabbed my laptop and walked out.
I know the time away was not as long as it should had been but I am tired and just headed home.
I know the time away was not as long as it should had been but I am tired and just headed home.
Well, the medical situation she had today probably did call for a softer, less distant approach, but I'm just afraid with your wife's myriad medical problems, and recent behavior, she will quickly learn to ALWAYS have a medical reason to rope you back into close enmeshment with her when you try to create some distance.
Still, a good start.
Puppy
Man, reading OIN's posts make me feel like were living the same life. Almost identical interactions. However, my situation is over. I got to the point where I had to make the decision to save myself. I wrote her a large cheque for some shared property(granted mostly mine), wished her the best, and changed my phone numbers. There comes a time, like Puppy, CG, TH, and Steve, when you have to put your emotional well being above your desire to save the relationship. I never got what I wanted which was a happy, healthy relationship with her but I got what I needed. I regained my self-respect and a sense of peace I haven't had for years.
I'm not in a position to suggest you give up on your marriage but I do feel like a different tactic is needed. You're getting some stellar advice from the vets, I hope you will at least consider it.
After I got home last night W woke up shortly after.
W asked "where did you go?" and I simply responded "To hang out"
W did not ask where or with who...
A little later on I explained to W how the dog had chewed the remote while I was gone and she was sleeping and after W gave her "bad dog" speech she then said "She (as in the dog) said 'that is what you get for going and hanging out'" W put emphasis on the hanging out part.
Earlier in the day W had asked if I could pick up some contact solution (we both where contacts). Later on just before she was ready to go to bed for the night she asked if I was able to pick it up bu I had forgot all about it. Unfortunately I needed it myself so I went to the store to get some.
When I got back and we were settled in bed watching the news W asked "Where did you go earlier" and I asked "When you got home from work or just a little while ago" she said from work and I told her to get my oil changed. Then W asked where I had been just now and I told her a friends house and she asked what friend so I told her.
My W then showed me the meds she received ect... then we went to bed.
I don't feel as if my W uses the health issues as a way to rope me. She did not call/txt me once while I was out. Before our sitch, however, she would always txt me.
I don't feel as if my W uses the health issues as a way to rope me. She did not call/txt me once while I was out. Before our sitch, however, she would always txt me.
I'm saying she WILL do that, once she sees you detaching and going dimmer. Then again, with all of the details you just provided her, she probably won't have to.
C'mon, dude, BE MORE MYSTERIOUS!!! "Just out" is all you need to tell her!!!
Puppy
After getting up this morning and eating breakfast ect...W gets up and we're both in bed W see a commercial and says "add that to my birthday list" I am thinking to myself WTH?
So I start chatting with a friend of facebook and he said he was going to drop off some supplements to me, I start to get dressed so I look presentable when he comes over. W then asked "you getting ready?" I replied "Yes" W said "Where you going?" I said "I am not sure yet" W then asked "Who you going with?" I said "No one" W then replied "So your getting dressed to go somewhere but you don't know where..you know what I am not going to get into it"
I was just about to explain myself and then W said "It does not matter" and then I thought to myself "your right it does not matter"
W then went into the shower...when she came out she asked "did you get what you had to get?" and I answered "No"
Yes, I want to be mysterious and raise her interest but I don't want to be secretive and raise her suspicion.
You can't control how your W reacts. You can control how YOU react to it.
Basically it sounds like your W wants you around to treat you like garbage. When you decide you won't sit around the house and be treated like a second class citizen she doesn't seem to like that either.
Let her be suspicious. If you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Meeting up with friends is not wrong.
Yes, I want to be mysterious and raise her interest but I don't want to be secretive and raise her suspicion.
Yes, God forbid you actually try something DIFFERENT, that might
WORK.
Puppy
OK well all hell just broke loose again.
W had piled stuff in a closet on top of personal belonging and her wedding dress and I brought this to her attention. W could careless and so I called her words ignorant.
W and I then got into it about the 10 years as my W would out it "10 years of my life wasted." W dug deep to bring up things that I have done and said in the past.
I tried to flip it around and remain positive. W can careless that I changed. W said that I damaged her to the point that she will never feel significant to anyone and that she could never trust a person again because of me.
I said to W "for months I have put fort the effort to show and express the importance of this marriage. I have been loving and caring no matter how unwilling you were or unwanted I felt. You have made it very clear that you do not want this marriage to work and you don't love me anymore."
W and I continued conversation. We both reflected on the past and provided two very different perspectives.
Eventually W got to the point where she said "I feel like I wasted my life on you. I had plans for a future, I wanted to get married and have children at a young age. I cannot see myself ever being happy because of you."
I said "Like you I want happiness and had the same plan of marrying and having children."
W said "Just because we had the same plan in life does not mean we should be together" I replied "I did not suggest that, I am speaking in general"
I then said "You don't want to be here or with me anymore. You are unhappy and cannot wait to leave, what is holding you back?"
W said "what do you mean" and I replied "You want out of this home why are you not doing it?" W said "This is my house just as much as yours, I have nowhere else to go right now"
I replied "you have plenty of places to go, I will help you pack"
W said "you will not touch my stuff and this is my house too, I am on the mortgage and if you want to start this stuff I will make it hell for you."
I told W "That she could remove her name from the mortgage" W said "You cannot do that only I can and I will not do it and just force your family out on the street cause you cannot afford this on your own" I said to W "I will take you to court and sue you for the incentive fund" W said "you want to start that I will never let you see MY dog ever again"
W then went on to say "I am done with you, this marriage get out my face and she closed the door"
SO that did not go well. I have had better interactions with my pasts efforts rather than taking a hard stance as it were suggested.
I don;t see this marriage working after this most resent exchange but had hope with my past approach. I give up to sum it up.
A hard stance was suggested. What you described was not you taking a hard stance at all.
The first part of your post says it all. You went right back to the father/daughter dynamic. Why does it matter if your wife chose to pile stuff on HER personal belongings and HER wedding dress? They are not your items and correcting her doesn't set the dynamic of husband and wife.
Nobody suggested a "hard stance" included a R talk that spans 10 years.
Nobody suggested you tell her you would remove her name from the mortgage.
Nobody suggested you keep going back and forth with her. You could have walked away and told her when she was calm, in control and ready to be civil you would consider having another conversation.
There was no validation in this conversation at all. It was nit picking, R talking, empty threats and conflict. That is not a hard stance.
SO that did not go well. I have had better interactions with my pasts efforts rather than taking a hard stance as it were suggested.
Oh, yeah, your way is working so well. 49x your way, and 1x our way, and you say it doesn't work??
Good lord.
Puppy
A hard stance was suggested. What you described was not you taking a hard stance at all.
The first part of your post says it all. You went right back to the father/daughter dynamic. Why does it matter if your wife chose to pile stuff on HER personal belongings and HER wedding dress? They are not your items and correcting her doesn't set the dynamic of husband and wife.
Nobody suggested a "hard stance" included a R talk that spans 10 years.
Nobody suggested you tell her you would remove her name from the mortgage.
Nobody suggested you keep going back and forth with her. You could have walked away and told her when she was calm, in control and ready to be civil you would consider having another conversation.
There was no validation in this conversation at all. It was nit picking, R talking, empty threats and conflict. That is not a hard stance.
Puppy
You went right back to the father/daughter dynamic.
from the very begining of this thread it has sounded very much like a "brother/sister" relationship, love life dead in the water; and her complaints, if she is re-writting marital history, or just plain fed up with you, are hers and are holding any intimacy back, hence you carry on like brother and sister. then the affair...
Do you know what the term amicable means? Do you believe it is possible to live with someone you love or once loved and think of them as a sister? God forbid you call her bluff, OIN.
It's definitely more father/daughter than brother/sister. He, with all good intentions and a good heart, is nevertheless patronizing to her.
Puppy
The first part of your post says it all. You went right back to the father/daughter dynamic. Why does it matter if your wife chose to pile stuff on HER personal belongings and HER wedding dress? They are not your items and correcting her doesn't set the dynamic of husband and wife.
personal belonging which she DAMAGED and HER wedding dress.
CG I just reread your post, I miss read it so discard every else that I did post if you already read it.
OIN, if you think you just did what's been advocated to you, then you've misread the advice you've been given.
Puppy
W and I then got into it about the 10 years as my W would out it "10 years of my life wasted." W dug deep to bring up things that I have done and said in the past.
I tried to flip it around and remain positive. W can careless that I changed. W said that I damaged her to the point that she will never feel significant to anyone and that she could never trust a person again because of me.
I said . . .
What is it they say in a court of law? STIPULATED.
The question is, what are you going to DO about all of this?
Too many WORDS, OIN. You've talked this to death, and each of you has, multiple times, stated your postion. You're at a standoff, and you need to decide what you want to DO, not what you want to SAY.
At this point, to keep repeating these conversations, is only so much
cruelty to each other.
Puppy
PDT,
In this closet I had designated as the storage area for all the belongings for my past loved ones. This closet had gone undisturbed since we moved in. I open the door today and there was her dress at the bottom of a pile which included but not limited to bags of shoes, filled clothes baskets and other random items, which crushed the boxes beneath and damages items inside the box. W found this to be no big deal which I found completely disrespectful which lead me to call her "ignorant." It just stemmed from there.
You know what you are right. I have a hard time interpreting what advice is suggested to me. Unfortunately I cannot find the gray area and see things black&white, one way or the other nothing in between. I do my best but I am failing and causing more damage to my marriage and I feel like there is no hope for reconciliation at this point.
W and I then got into it about the 10 years as my W would out it "10 years of my life wasted." W dug deep to bring up things that I have done and said in the past.
I tried to flip it around and remain positive. W can careless that I changed. W said that I damaged her to the point that she will never feel significant to anyone and that she could never trust a person again because of me.
I said . . .
What is it they say in a court of law? STIPULATED.
The question is, what are you going to DO about all of this?
Too many WORDS, OIN. You've talked this to death, and each of you has, multiple times, stated your postion. You're at a standoff, and you need to decide what you want to DO, not what you want to SAY.
At this point, to keep repeating these conversations, is only so much
cruelty to each other.
Puppy
I am not sure I follow your question. MY position "Save the marriage and work it out" W position "Wants out the marriage it cannot be worked out"
I have done so much for the benefit of our marriage and W can careless. I cannot control the way she feels only how I react. I just don't know how to react. I ignore her words and continue to work on our marriage it has got us nowhere. I take a stance and say I want to pursue happiness with or without her and it just pushes her away further but yet her presence still lingers.
So DROP THE ROPE.
I'm not seeing where you've ever really done that. Re-read what DB/DR says about "Dropping the rope." This dynamic now is killing you. I can feel it in your posts.
Puppy
I am failing and causing more damage to my marriage . . .
No, Officer, your WIFE is doing that, make no mistake.
So DROP THE ROPE.
I'm not seeing where you've ever really done that. Re-read what DB/DR says about "Dropping the rope." This dynamic now is killing you. I can feel it in your posts.
Puppy
What section?
That is exactly why you need to get out and be around people. It will do you good to watch and interact with people who behave in a more healthy manner. And you need some space from living with your W and being with her so much.
I did misread your post and thought you had said your W put items on top of HER things.
You act on emotion and that will never get you anywhere. Think about it, that is exactly what was fueling your W's affair. Now you are doing the same thing.
You don't follow the advice here and IMO it has been made perfectly clear. Make the time to finish the books you have and read them again. What you think is "working" is really just keeping things status quo and the progress you think you see is simply not there.
When you post these exchanges you sound mean and your W sounds like a spoiled brat. You sound like two people that absolutely thrive on pushing each others buttons.
Honestly at this point I would tell your W that you have some big decisions to make about your future, you are not ready to discuss anything and then GET SOME SPACE. Stop answering all her texts and calls. If you want to offer her courtesy simply leave a note on the table "went out for the evening" and leave it at that.
What is it that you all would consider 'success'? What would need to happen or be said for it to be successful or progress?
Up till the 25th of the month when I looked back at my sitch where it was when it all started and how far I have come I would say I made progress. Our interactions were better. W actually wanted to be around me/do things with me where as before she wanted nothing to do with me.
Yes, at this point W still did not commit to working on our marriage and she had poor communication at times. However W had decided to stay in our home, not something she expressed verbally but through her actions.
It is said in the DR book that it will take a lot of patients and for every year things were bad in a R it would equate to 1 month of DB. We are on month 6 of our sitch, 5 months DB, 4 months of steady DB. In this time there were two instances where I had to bust an EA with same OM, so that it self is a major set back. So in total we're talking 2 1/2 months of DB without the interference of OM. Through all this I have made strides with W.
In the past 2 weeks, I had tried a new approach,maybe I did not apply the theory of this approach the best I could but I gave it a try anyway. Calling W out when she used sounds to communicate with me rather than words (W took it as me being controlling and governing her words).
I guess what I want to know is, what is your measurement for success and why do you think it could be obtained in such a short period of time?
OIN,
That is a very fair, thoughtful question, that deserves a thoughtful response.
Let me think on it, and I promise, I WILL get back to you with my thoughts later.
Puppy
OIN,
Becoming mysterious isn't your answer here.
Your ANSWER is to validate HER. You are trying to validate everything she does and says EXCEPT THE ONE AND MOST IMPORTANT THING... That is that she WANTS OUT..
Every time she says she is done and wants out, you always tell her that isn't what you want. That is NOT validating her and what she wants.
If she wants out and you say you love her then you should love her enough to allow her to leave and allow her to divorce you.
There is only ONE way to validate her that works in these situations....
It goes like this... "WS, I have been doing some thinking and here is what I have decided. I NOW realize that you really don't want this marriage or me anymore. I realize that what I have done in the past has destroyed any chance of you ever loving me again. I now realize that I have been trying to keep you and get you to love me back with making some changes that should have been made a long time ago. I now realize that no matter how much I try and no matter how much I wanted this to work that your mind is made up and your feelings are not going to change. I now AGREE that it is too late and that we can not make this work. I will no longer make an effort to try to save this marriage. We need to decide how we are going to separate our things such as the house, the money, etc... I think it would be best if you moved out. Your dad should have your place ready shortly and I think it would be best if you moved there while we take care of the divorce process. Don't worry about me and my parents and the house. I will handle it. I am sorry that I haven't been paying attention to how badly you wanted out, but after this weekend it really hit me that it isn't going to work and that you are RIGHT."
And THEN you start going out and doing things like you started to yesterday.. Acting mysterious BEFORE telling and showing her you FINALLY get it is a waste of time. It will be more productive for you AFTER you give her the I am letting go for good speech. It is YOUR letting go that could turn her around. IT isn't going to turn around ever, if you don't let go. NEVER. It will NEVER turn around UNTIL you let go and agree with her. If you agree with her stance ten and only then do you have a chance.
Go and read the thread started my MYLU. Observe how long she acted bitchy to her husbend UNTIL HE AGREED that it wasnt' going to work. And NOW look what is happening. A total 180. All because he decided to agree with her that it was NOT going to work. Analyze that thread. Now she is willing to do anything to make it work. Now she is awake. Not before he let go,but AFTER he let go and gave her what she kept telling hims she wanted.
When I asked him in the afternoon if we were still on, he said yes, but not very enthusiastically, and that hurt. I lost it, and refused to go for dinner, to have sex with him, etc. I picked up a book & when a couple hrs later he tried cajoling me to go for dinner, I still refused. I can be very stubborn. For the 1st time, instead of trying to pull me out of my mood, he went downstairs & we didn’t speak for the rest of the night, didn’t eat either. He went to sleep on the couch (also a 1st). June 6, in the AM, we didn’t speak, till finally he asked me why I wasn’t speaking to him. I’m a drama queen (& an idiot apparently) and told him it was b/c he’d effectively ended our M. He ended up leaving for 5 hrs. [b]While he was gone, I packed up some clothes and wrote him a goodbye letter, put my wedding rings in it and phoned him to say bye. He told me not to leave & came back. He read the letter, but it was clear from it that I didn’t want to leave. He came to talk to me & said he’d been doing a lot of thinking & had come to the conclusion it wasn’t going to work betw us.
All of a sudden it hit home, I’d been pushing him away, questioning him & testing him & now I’d finally gotten what I didn’t want, but probably deserved. I became hysterical, asked him “do you not love me anymore?”.
Gucci,
You and I have had this discussion before.
I wanted to share with you all what our conversation was about yesterday.
After I brought up the whole damaging my personal property and calling her ignorant it was all down hill from there and the conversation went like this...
W - "You're calling me ignorant? I made sure I did not put anything on top of your stuff and as for the dress I paid for it and I will do with it as I should, it means nothing anyway. I was going to wear it for Halloween this year and get some use out of it"
Me - not sure how to respond, I stand there with a intrigued look on my face.
W continued - "Yes traditionally the dress is preserved but it's not like we had a traditional wedding anyway and I can pass down a white dress to my daughter."
Me - "We both agreed to have a non-traditional wedding"
W - "Yes we did, I know caused I planned the whole thing, remember when you said 'just make the plans and I will show up?' do you remember that? So it was me who planned the whole thing"
Me - "Yes, you are right, you did do the majority of the planning and I did say that. My head was not in the right place at that time"
W - "Well I believed you when you said it and all these changes you made and words you speak mean nothing to me they are all a lie"
W went on to bring up specific events that occurred throughout 10 years where I had overreacted, made her feel insecure about her self and lower her self esteem or hurt her. W said she always thought I would change but then realized it will always be the same so she is done.
W - "You have killed me inside, you have ruined me to the point where I can never believe or trust anyone ever again. Because of you I will never feel like I am significant to anyone."
I went on to contradict what W had said about always being a terrible person and foolishly trying to remind her of the countless times I expressed how beautiful I thought she was.
I then went on to question W's logic.
Me - "You say that 10 years has been nothing but bad but yet we found enough love in one another to get married"
W - "Because stupid me thought you would change after we got married"
Me - "We were 4 months into our marriage when you told me you did not love me anymore, a day after you just got done telling me you loved me so much. I realized that I had some issues that I had to address and I did, change is what I did."
W - "Too late, I will never NEVER be able to forgive you or forget the things you done or said and I will NEVER be happy with you"
W gave more instances of things that occurred in the past, some I had forgot about and others I don't remember ever happening.
W and I then got into a discussion about how things that had happened in the past that I could not let go of that had drove me to be the person I was before our sitch began.
To sum it all up W is bitter and hurt from all that I had said and done in the past and has A LOT of resentment toward me. I admit my faults and never deny anything from the past whether I remembering it happening or not. Because of this W believes everything happens in a cycle and she cannot rust that I will never revert back to the person I was therefore she could never be happy with me. Though I had spent the past 6 months literally changing her I was from the inside and out W does not see a bit of change and said she never will.
Do I want our marriage to work, Yes. DO I think it is going to work, No. I don't want to push my W out the door nor do I want her to feel as if I do not want out marriage to work.
I just MYLU's sitch. The dynamics surrounding the sitch are not the same that surround mine.
I had said to W last week that I am not looking for a roommate and that she is my W. W said just yesterday "you're right, we are roommates and that is all it ever will be until I leave." It has been 6 months since the last time me W and I had any sexual or intimate contact outside of holding hands 4 months ago. I receive absolutely no affection.
What are you needing from this forum?
That entire conversation had not one bit of validation.
While the particulars of each situation might differ a bit the bottom line is MOST WAS are all the same. They are angry, resentful and firmly planted in past hurts and transgressions.
Each time your W came at you with something you tried to point out what YOU wanted to your W. Why not just say "ok, W, I think you are right, this won't work". Agree with her. When you agree with somebody what can they argue about? If she comes back at you with something else simply say "sorry you feel that way".
When you went to your friends house the other day your W called you. See what happens when you are not around? And that was ONE night. Not only did she call you she asked about your whereabouts once you got home.
While I know you don't feel like you are arguing with your W you are. Stop pointing out your feelings. She knows you want the marriage to work. You dismiss her feelings at every turn. You do not listen to her because you are too busy trying to get her to see things your way.
I know you don't do this to be evil but really, every heated exchange the two of you have turns out this way. You have the power to change that. All sarcasm aside... do you just get caught up in the heat of the moment? Do you forget what you should be doing? Do you not understand what you should be doing? Perhaps if you can isolate why you keep going back to this same destructive pattern it will be helpful.
Remember when I told you that my H told me that when my dad died he would give me three months to "get over it"? And the more he pushed me to get over it the worse things became. Not only was I trying to process my father's very sudden death but I was also trying to process I had been diagnosed with a disease and on top of all that trying to process how insensitive my H was being.
The more my H tried to get me to see things "his way" the more angry I got. The more I shut down. The more I shut him out.
Do you know it was FOUR years later my H came to me and apologized with deep sincerity for that. I do believe in his mind he was thinking a timeline would be helpful to me since I had so much going on and in his crazy mind he was being helpful. I don't think he sat up at night trying to think of ways to make my life more stressful during that time. But the more he pushed his "agenda" on me the more I wanted to run for the hills.
If my H would have just shut up about his stupid time lines I would have felt tons less pressure.
When somebody is hurt, confused, shocked and bitter additional pressure does not good.
I know you don't do this to be evil but really, every heated exchange the two of you have turns out this way. You have the power to change that. All sarcasm aside... do you just get caught up in the heat of the moment? Do you forget what you should be doing? Do you not understand what you should be doing? Perhaps if you can isolate why you keep going back to this same destructive pattern it will be helpful.
Yes, exactly. To be VERY honest, I do not go looking for R talks with my W and for a little over a month W had not a one then in the past week we had 4 already. I get caught up in how good I think things were going that I just fail to validate and then when I remember what I should had said stupid me goes back and bring up the R talk so I can say those things...how insane is that?
There are others times where I think back to other great advice I have received from forum members that is not along the lines as some of you suggest and I found it to be productive as well.
I also have/had a DB coach ( I still have one session remaining) and I was told by him to validate W feelings by saying "I just want you to be happy" and forum members jumped on this and said absolutely not so I have not called back since then.
On a side note W's birthday is tomorrow. W is in a terrible mood. This would be the first year since we met that W and I do nothing special for her birthday. W told me just today "I am halfway to AARP, it is just another day" never has she had such a terrible attitude about her birthday and to her, I am the one to blame.
I have never had a DB session myself but I think it lasts only an hour or so, right? Has your DB Coach been really able to see the father/daughter pattern the two of you have? I ask because IMO that is why it seems nuts to say "I just want you to be happy". It reminds me of the spoiled child who pitches a fit to get what they want and the father who gives it to her.
I realize you can only say so much during one session but after so many posts on the board it is very easy to see the dynamic. IMO that is why other forum members suggest the "I just want you to be happy" angle won't work within the dynamic the two of you share.
I guess you really have to define productive. For the past few months it seems (to me and what the hell do I know) you are putting more clout in the "positive" things then what is really there. The dynamic really hasn't changed it just sort of quieted down. When your W is rude and disrespectful to you and treats you like as servant and you do it, well, things are fine. When you call her out on her behavior she doesn't like it and starts up with how much she hates you and blah blah blah.
IOW, you only feel improvement when you do what you have to do to keep your W "happy" even though she is behaving like a spoiled child. See what I mean?
Do I want our marriage to work, Yes. DO I think it is going to work, No. I don't want to push my W out the door nor do I want her to feel as if I do not want out marriage to work.
I just MYLU's sitch. The dynamics surrounding the sitch are not the same that surround mine.
Gucci's advice -- and the principles behind it -- are
NEAR-UNIVERSAL, OIN, and they are based upon years and years of studying human interpersonal dynamics and what WORKS, esp. when there is infidelity involved.
You're listening not ONE WHIT. As C.G. said, your entire conversation with your wife is just you trying to convince her that her feelings are "wrong."
Feelings can't BE wrong, OIN -- they are what they are.
It is your own blind stubbornness to that, despite everyone's best advice they've given you, that is "pushingyour wife out the door." Gucci's approach would actually be the OPPOSITE; you are giving her your validation, and her own freedom, if that's what she wants.
Puppy
Gucci,
You and I have had this discussion before.
YEP.. We sure have..
And look where you are. Your wife is telling you she hates you and your wife says she is done and your wife is so angry at you that she is throwing and breaking things. Seems to me that what you have been doing isn't working. Not only that, the clock is ticking against you hour by hour day by day....
You are fooling yourself if you think that when you weren't having relationship talks it meant things were better. Very foolish on your part. Just because two people aren't talking about the relationship has nothing in the world to do with what is going on in the relationship. These talks have only verified how she still feels. Don't go blaming the talks as the reason things seem different to you. They certainly aren't different to her. I suppose now you will see if you can go another two months or more without a talk and then will tell yourself that things are better because you haven't brought one up. The facts are you are scared to let her go because you believe she will go. That is still someone trying to control
Not only all of that Puppy...
BUT.. His wife IS right..
It is NOT working. She is right. It isn't. He is wrong.
He is the only one that isn't seeing that. He won't even admit it to us. The marriage is NOT working. Not for him and not for her. They are both unhappy. He needs to admit that to her. WHICH IS VALIDATION...
He is still trying to convince her that she is wrong, when she really really isn't. It isn't working for her and from his posts it certainly isn't what he wants in a relationship. Which translates into.. IT ISN'T WORKING> He just needs to admit it.
Interesting..
Gucci,
You and I have had this discussion before.
YEP.. We sure have..
And look where you are. Your wife is telling you she hates you and your wife says she is done and your wife is so angry at you that she is throwing and breaking things. Seems to me that what you have been doing isn't working. Not only that, the clock is ticking against you hour by hour day by day....
You are fooling yourself if you think that when you weren't having relationship talks it meant things were better. Very foolish on your part. Just because two people aren't talking about the relationship has nothing in the world to do with what is going on in the relationship. These talks have only verified how she still feels. Don't go blaming the talks as the reason things seem different to you. They certainly aren't different to her. I suppose now you will see if you can go another two months or more without a talk and then will tell yourself that things are better because you haven't brought one up. The facts are you are scared to let her go because you believe she will go. That is still someone trying to control
I am a literal person and I take most of everything in the literal sense. My W has not ever before or during our sitch used the words "I hate you."
As an example...In the past I would fool myself into thinking W and I had made progress. I defined progress by W opening up to me and not being as bitter. W would want to do things with me. W would find herself having a good time and then realize this and throw out there "I am still leaving." Then we got to a point where W would find herself having a good time and accept it as that, a good time.
Another example...W would not dare talk about anything that had to do with improving the our home. If I or her mentioned something that each of us wanted for the house to do to improve the house W would say "Does not matter I am leaving anyway" Up till this past weekend W was all about making our house a home. We sat down and spoke plenty of times of future plans about our home that carried all the way through to next year. No it was not a commitment to our marriage but it was a commitment to our home that she wants to leave so bad...
What is it that you all would consider 'success'? What would need to happen or be said for it to be successful or progress?
Success in my books would be for you to start living your own life and not have it hanging on:
- every word your WAW says
- every expression on her face
- every grunt and snort she utters
- every whine and whimper she mutters
Here's one thing I've seen.. (I'm not up to speed on your entire thread but I have read your posts from time to time)
Whatever you have done so far has been bending over backwards to please HER... you have done
very little to please yourself.
You want success?
Stop living for her and start living and doing things for you. (Pssst... it's called getting a life) Things that you enjoy, bring you pleasure and satisfy you - IRRESPECTIVE of how that will affect your WAW.
Actions speak louder than words.
The catalyst for your W wanting to fix up the home was a party SHE wanted on HER timeline and only inviting HER people.
When things didn't go quite her way she threw a vase and destroyed photos.
Talk is cheap. Who cares what she says she wants to do a year down the road to the house. Her actions scream on a daily basis she didn't want to be there with you. Hell, maybe she was thinking she would get the house in the divorce hence her planning.
I think your just keeps her mouth shut to appease you (so you think she is having a good time) because when you are appeased she doesn't have to deal with anything. When you start to grow a spine is when she throws her fits and makes her threats.
It's not so much about progress IMO it's more that when you do things to her liking she will keep quiet and you interpret that to be progress.
Being so literal, needing to be in control, needing your W to see things "your way" are all things you need to work on.
She might have only verbalized hate to you recently but her actions have said hate for a long time. You seem to have tunnel vision and I think if you expanded your vision a bit more things would be more clear.
You and your W both have LOTS of things you need to work on as individuals. I honestly thought you and your W were in your 50's or 60's based on the way she acts. I was pretty stunned to learn you are both not yet 30. Her inability to manage daily things (her job schedule, basic communication with words, her talking through the dog) despite her physical issues is very, very serious and that alone can cause all kinds of anger.
So, if a group of strangers is telling you that all you thought was good actually wasn't... what will you do now?
OIN, You are a tolerable alternative and, frankly, the path of least resistance for her. Sometimes staying is more tolerable than others (peace vs. snippyness); sometimes the trade-off is more reasonable than others (let you do the work around the pretty house vs. having to move and handle it all); sometimes it's an annoying pain in the ass but it's still good enough for right now (I treat him like [censored] but he still does stuff for me).
In her mind you are the root of all evil, and nothing you say or do to or for her is going to change her mind. Your relationship, such as it is, will continue to drift up and down along the "relative scale of suckiness" until something radical happens.
Change the circumstances. You've been told how. You don't want to, that's fine, but stop looking for the way to do it that fits in with what you want to do and keeps you in control. Either you're willing to do what works or you're not, but the answer isn't going to change no matter how many times or in how many different ways you ask the question.
Wow! Some Stellar advice being doled out here, OIN.
I know you're struggling bro, it comes across in your posts. Everyone here understands the pain and frustration of being in this situation.
You need to detach. Please. You love your wife, that much is very clear. Love her enough to detach and let her go.
Yes.. AND when you let go..
You might find out something very interesting..
THAT is when they come back....
And NOT before...
Gucci is very right.
Not that my H wants to get back together with me (he lives with OW, lol!) but recently he has been contacting me... asking me if he can come for dinner, texting me from a concert, texting me the next day, writing me a note with my spousal maintenance check and texting me on our anniversary. Keep in mind we have had virtually NO CONTACT since Nov. of 2009. Once he moved in with OW I gave up on him totally. I didn't tell him that of course. I know he doesn't want to get back together (maybe me and him and OW can be housemates, lol!) but I do think he is nervous I am no longer in the background to be his friend.
It might take your W a long time to start sniffing around again but it might happen. You might not get back together if she does come sniffing but it will be the only way to have a chance IMO.
Yes.. AND when you let go..
detach
agree
drop the rope
validate
GAL
make goals
become mysterious
let them be them and you be you
set boundaries (where you stop and they start)
stop fearing a D
stop pursuing
decide to thrive no matter the outcome
Doesn't matter what you call it. Just do it for Pete's sake.
You might find out something very interesting..
THAT is when they come back....
And NOT before...
It works.
Cheers
In her mind you are the root of all evil, and nothing you say or do to or for her is going to change her mind.
I'll simulataneously disagree with that and agree with all the other advice given here.
The ONLY thing that will possibly change her mind is letting her go. Let her feel life without you in it. Time has a magical property of cleansing and clarifying toxic situations like this.
I was like you a year ago, analyzing my W's behavior, looking for sand-grain-sized indications of change. When the change finally comes, it WON'T be subtle. Instead of vague hints at a possible future, mixed in with an ocean of negativity, she'll be the one defending the M, saying how it's not worth throwing away, validating your changes, etc. Don't waste your time doing this micro-analysis. Your W is miserable, and is feeling horribly trapped. Let her go, let her feel life without the pressure. Let time work its magic on her for six months or a year. Only after that long will you potentially see real movement.
I honestly thought you and your W were in your 50's or 60's based on the way she acts. I was pretty stunned to learn you are both not yet 30.
I'm stunned too! Just now learning this.
OMG, O.I.N., you've got your WHOLE LIFE ahead of you, man.
Take all my previous advice to you and multiply it threefold.Puppy
Yes, I am 27. W is going to be 25 tomorrow. I was 17 and W was 14 when we meant.
It's funny, you all say "your young you got your whole life ahead of you" and here I am saying "I'm old"
Can there be a happy medium?
What I mean is. Friend I work with invited me and my W to join him at a show. I asked W if she would like to join us W replied "if you want to go" and I said "I'm going." Leaving the decision up to my W if she wants to join or not if she said no I would still go. Is that wrong? To invite her at this point?
Also While I was sitting back in another room in the house reading all your posts and trying to take it all in W had txt me "Where are you" as she was downstairs. I eventually made my way downstairs and W said "I am hungry there is nothing to eat." I said in return "Your right there is nothing" and then walked into the kitchen. Usually I would have offered suggestions and/or provided a solution. I would say that my W said "i'm hungry" or "there nothing to eat" at least 15 times after that and I said nothing...she was talking to herself so I just let her talk to herself.
In response to what? our ages or the fact I invited her to the movies?
Your inviting her to the movies, and the whole "there's nothing to eat" exchange.
You are going to to do what you are going to do.
Less than 24 hours ago your W said she hated you and wanted you out of her life. She had no consequences to such cruelty other than being asked to go to the movies.
Please go back and read your last paragraph later on with a fresh set of eyes. It is HIGHLY ABMORMAL for a grown woman to text her husband who is inside the house to tell him there is nothing to eat. Then to continue saying it for 15 times. It is just plain bizarre. Under the BEST of circumstances that is not a sane reason in the world to provide a suggestion or solution to an adult that is bitching there is nothing to eat. If she can't figure that one out, well, I guess she will remain hungry.
Did you say you had been married for 10 years? That would mean your W was 15 when you got married. Can you clarify?
OIN,
Gucci is a very wise man. His words have been chosen very carefully. I strongly suggest you read this over and over to understand........
I have been doing some thinking and here is what I have decided. I NOW realize that you really don't want this marriage or me anymore. I realize that what I have done in the past has destroyed any chance of you ever loving me again. I now realize that I have been trying to keep you and get you to love me back with making some changes that should have been made a long time ago. I now realize that no matter how much I try and no matter how much I wanted this to work that your mind is made up and your feelings are not going to change. I now AGREE that it is too late and that we can not make this work. I will no longer make an effort to try to save this marriage. We need to decide how we are going to separate our things such as the house, the money, etc... I think it would be best if you moved out. Your dad should have your place ready shortly and I think it would be best if you moved there while we take care of the divorce process. Don't worry about me and my parents and the house. I will handle it. I am sorry that I haven't been paying attention to how badly you wanted out, but after this weekend it really hit me that it isn't going to work and that you are RIGHT."
The sooner you say these words to your wife, the better chance of her coming back to you........
The sooner you say these words to your wife, the better chance of her coming back to you........
Thanks Ready.
OIN.. I have done this stuff SUCCESSFULLY for over twenty years... This is NOT my first time around the block with a situation like yours. Matter of fact, I have seen your type of situation thousands of times.... I always run into the same things with men in your situation. Same excuses. Same reasoning. Same responses..
The ones who wise up and listen and apply the principles of what works to bring a woman back around TOWARD you have the best chance to get her back. The thing that they almost all say later is "why didn't I wake up sooner and let go".... They feel better about themselves. It isn't good for men to try to win a woman back. It is LOWERING your self esteem. She senses that you are TRYING too hard. (remember my "I'm still shakin it boss" comment)(that is how YOU are coming across to HER now) Women respect a man who does the things you are doing if he does them out of strength. They don't respect or love a man who does them out of loss of her love.That is JUST the way it is and just the way it works. If what you were doing was what worked for men, then I would be the first to tell you to keep doing it. If begging worked, then I would tell you to beg. However, in my twenty some years, I have rarely seen the things you are doing work.
Now. This doesn't mean that you are rude, mean, or treat her badly. What is means is that you do what you did tonight regarding the food issue. NOTHING. You don't reach out to her. You don't rescue her. You can be cordial. You should be cordial. What she HAS to see and FEEL (NOTICE the word FEEL) that you have given up trying to save the relationship. "I give, you win.. I will NOT try anymore. I am done too."
FINALLY she will FEEL that you heard her. The pressure is finally off of YOU and is now on her. Does she really mean what she has been saying? What if YOU are now done? YOu are finally giving her the chance to think those thoughts. Just let her see and feel that you have given up. You won't be mean, but you won't be making ANY effort TOWARD her.. You are going into your own little world. You HAVE TO give her the speech I told you to give her. You will THEN find out if the relationship will be able to be saved. SHE will have to bring up a talk or it is over. It is now really up to her. Is she really willing to risk that? I don't know. No guarantees.
Stop torturing yourself. You HAVE tried. She has rejected your effort. (no surprise to me, they almost always reject your efforts in these situations.) It is only when you let her go and leave her alone and give up that she may turn around.
If she is truly done, then so be it. Nothing you could have done anyway. She is already telling you she is done, so what more can she tell you? What? That she is STILL done? What? That you are never going to change? No more TRYING. It isn't worth it and it does NOT work.
Believe it or not.. SOMETIMES the BEST thing for a relationship to heal is TIME APART.... "
Absence is to love as wind is to fire.. It blows out the weak and kindles the strong"......
CG,
Together for 10 years and 5 months. Married for 9 months.
About the movies. A friend invited us. I told her about the invite and she agreed to go. If she would had said no I would had still went. Turns out friends W wanted it to be a family thing and so I respected that. I passed the message onto W and she said "We can still go just not with them if you want" and I made the decision not to go.
W and I sorted out some bills and made payments. I heard how hungry she is and throw a fit about it all night. I said nothing or would say "your right, there is nothing to eat" a few times.
----------------------------
Gucci,
What is the status of your sitch? reconciled or divorced if you don't mind me asking.
What exactly have you been doing for 20 years? divorce busting?
I have tried many times to explain the dynamic of my sitch. As I said in a previous post my W and I have been together since I was 17 and she 14. During the 10 year span we developed what we thought was the way to love each other. In reality, as many of you have said, it was more of a father-daughter relationship. I was controlling and W enabled it. We did not know how to love each other so the way we expressed our feelings was natural to each other.
I guess you can say I played two roles...the boyfriend and then the father. My controlling behavior included the typical "you can't talk to this person" or "you cannot do this/that" and over the years my W accepted this as the normal and I continued because it worked.
On top of that I would say some pretty hurtful (extremely hurtful and outrageous things to my W). I had terrible insecurities and always had the fear of losing my W to someone else. My answer was to simply lower herself esteem to make her feel as if no one else wanted her. I think overtime it became a habit and I became addicted to the put downs. I said things just to get a rise out of her and hope she would become clingy or just feel terrible about herself and things she did. I remember saying "Your a terrible W." I use to tell my W I wasted 10 years of my life and that I did not want to be married to her ect... it goes on and on. Did I ever mean these things? No, never I did them because it felt natural and I knew it would break her down.
W has enough and tells me it is over, she confide in OM cause he finds her beautiful and feeds into her emotions. I, meanwhile, realize that my marriage is falling apart and never intended for this to happen. Now I realize how sick I was and that I needed some serious help and I get it. I have a new outlook on everything in life but now its too late as far as my W is concerned.
My W is growing up and the same time she still believes in fairy tale relationships and doe snot have the advantages I have to know what it truly means to love someone in a healthy way. She thinks unconditional love is putting up with crap and pissy attitude no matter what, basically was she had gone through for 10 years (no exactly but in her mind that long).
W admits we had good times but the bad outweigh the good and its too little too late for changes because she has pleaded for changes for years and all I ever did was shoot her down and tell her I did not want to be with her and encourage her to leave.
Tomorrow is her birthday as I mentioned, would it be OK to try and do something special for her? I know it goes against everything that has been discussed in the past 24hrs but...
Gucci,
What is the status of your sitch? reconciled or divorced if you don't mind me asking.
Very happily married with grown children now asking for relationship advice from "old dad"....
Relationships have been something I have been interested in for as long as I can remember. I consider it the same as a hobby. My wife reads on here with me quite often. I have studied and studied and observed this question for as long as I can remember.. "What happens and what did the betrayed person DO that helped to bring about reconciliation. I have done spreadsheets on these things. Who came on as a BS. What route they took. When they reconciled or if the reconciled what were the dynamics. I have a few male friends that have also been very successful in the woman dept. They have almost all said the exact same things I believe.. They found in their lives that chasing a woman who says she doesn't want you is a big waste of time and never worked for them either. They also discovered that when they let the woman go and moved on withouth them, that most times the woman wanted to come back. Also that going on and finding another woman they were interested in worked very well.... (I found this true als.) (I call this the jealousy factor.)
I still see these same patterns today. Even on this site. It has made my beliefs even stronger on what works and what doesn't. Matter of fact, your own situation is proving my beliefs yet again. You are just another person that is showing me what doe NOT work.
In my personal life I started getting people asking me for advice. (you think YOU have pressure? Try giving someone advice to let go and start dating another person and come back and tell me about pressure)
I then was finding out that my advice was working a high percentage of the time. I can think of at least 4 who were dating when they lost their lover at one point, who are NOW married. All were only friends or work associates of mine who took my advice. I can't even count the married men and women who have had the guts to listen to me and follow what works despite their fear. My daughter ALWAYS comes to me. So far it has always worked. The guy has always come back to chase HER even though she was dying to chase HIM.. "NOPE HONEY.. That doesnt' work. Don't do it, stop calling him and immediately START DATING ANOTHER GUY" (yes this advice is to my own daughter)(who knows better what works on a man than her daddy?)
"How do you know all of this stuff daddy? (after she calls me and tells me that he is now chasing her)"Experience honey, I had a lot of practice dating and with women. I found out what works on me as a man and what works on women"
Hope that helps. So, from my experience, from my observations, from my spreadsheets and from my talking to other successful men.. I would say that your chances by doing it your way don't look to good to me...
Your experience with helping others save relationships?
OK help me out here. Help me develop a new approach for my sitch giving the following.
W and I are still living together. There is no set date as to when W will move out. During the house warming/birthday party this past Saturday, all W's family members including FIL assumed W will be living in our home. Only family member that knows about our sitch is FIL and he was just talking about doing some repairs in our home which all while he is still fixing up his home. For FIL to take out/away from getting his home ready to help with our home is just baffling to me.
Let's say I give W the WAS speech then what? DO we or can we still do things together? is it me who stops asking her to do things and if she were to ask me is it OK to say "yes" ?
We had made plans not too long ago to attend event this summer. Do I assume that those plans would be no more and I plan on attend the event myself? or do I allow W to ask if I would still like to attend.
W likes to play word games. For example "Would YOU like to do this?" now it all rests on my shoulders, I am left to make the decision. W decides to join me after making the decision and if I ever say "You did this with me and now your leaving, makes no sense" W can say "No YOU wanted to do it I just tagged along"
I guess what I am afraid of is that if I gave the WAS speech it may seem like an empty threat. We still live together, we still communicate and not all is bad. We still go out and have fun together. So to give the speech and then still do these things with her would feel like an empty threat to her.
There are many people on this forum, pretty much every sitch I read, where WAS is already out the home and/or a separation is already in place and most would feel extremely lucky to be in my situation where WAS is still in house and has not proceeded with any thing legally, pretty much has been all talk up till this point. So is it fitting to give the speech now? or is there a more suitable approach?
Yes I want to reconcile and NO I do NOT want W to move out and I can only imagine the WAS speech pushing her out the door.
OK help me out here. Help me develop a new approach for my sitch giving the following.
***And then follows 400 words on why YOUR situation is different, and how it couldn't possibly work.
OPEN YOUR MIND, Officer!!
Puppy
OIN,
After following along with your posts, imo, you are so afraid you are going to 'do' the wrong thing that you read other posts and take from them what YOU feel will help YOU not your sitch.
Again imo, I think if you were to go back and reread your posts and try to detach yourself from them being 'your posts' and think of them as someone else, maybe, you could see what everyone else is seeing.
You NEED to let go of your guilt. This is HER CHOICE!!! You cannot change how she FEELS!
And lastly, please listen to your 'GUT' and NOT your heart. The 'gut' most generally knows....we have to learn to listen.
Please follow the advice of these wonderful people. (Puppy, CG, Gucci) They really are trying to help you.
Believe me I KNOW how hard it is to let go.....but, I wonder if you are hanging on because all YOU have known is her for your adult life.
Change is scary, but, I think it is time to listen.
I wish you all the best....gg
OIN,
After following along with your posts, imo, you are so afraid you are going to 'do' the wrong thing that you read other posts and take from them what YOU feel will help YOU not your sitch.
And lastly, please listen to your 'GUT' and NOT your heart. The 'gut' most generally knows....we have to learn to listen.
Please follow the advice of these wonderful people. (Puppy, CG, Gucci) They really are trying to help you.
Believe me I KNOW how hard it is to let go.....but, I wonder if you are hanging on because all YOU have known is her for your adult life.
Change is scary, but, I think it is time to listen.
Exactly. You have to let go and detach. It is hard and I am almost completely there. You have to quit using your feelings and do whats right. Try to let it come naturaly, don't force yourself, the spouse can see it. If I do something wrong, I make a big note of it...DONT DO 'THIS' AGAIN.
What I see on your post is you are not validating her. My W almost always brings up our past 10 years somehow in every conversation. I have learned to shut up and listen. Listen to her every word, and validate her needs, concerns, and needs. It is starting to work. She knows I won't argue with her, but am now listening. It is slowly working, little by little.
You need to stop arguing. As Coach said in a previous post,
AgreeDrop the Rope ValidateJust these 3 (plus the others) make a big difference and is a great start.
OIN,
If you can, pick up the book 'the languauge of letting go' by Melody Beattie. Its a daily devotional but it was the single most helpful book I've read.
I was following along in Gucci's other thread and another poster asked "What do you do if you still live together." Gucci you gave two options.
1. Ask her to leave
2. Start talking to friends of opposite sex.
1. We both own the home and she refuses to leave. We own a side-by-side duplex (decision we made) and rent the other side out to MY parents (decision we made). So I am not leaving.
2. Not happening.
1. We both own the home and she refuses to leave. We own a side-by-side duplex (decision we made) and rent the other side out to MY parents (decision we made). So I am not leaving.
Why not?
Why not?
Friends don't bite.
And stay where? I am still responsible for the mortgage no matter where I stay, and why should I leave my own home.
Is it no possible to give a WAS speech and still remain in the same household and just detach?
detachment is something I have not been successful at apparently. We were both invited to friends for the 4th. We both, as it stand now, are invited.
The issue has been and I will admit I had a hard time following/implementing advice giving. I pursuit too much and when things got slightly better I'd jump all over it. She'd give an inch I'd go the mile.
I am currently in a detach state of mind where I was not before. So its not fair to say that the advice giving by other board members has failed but rather I failed to follow their advice.
I am also at the point where I now see the logic behind Gucci's approach but I am uncertain on how to apply to my situation and I don't want to follow through till I have it figured out.
Quote:
2. Not happening.
Why not?
Friends don't bite. grin
I spent months trying to bust an EA between W and OM. Would that not be contradicting and hypocritical "Don't talk to OM but I'm going to talk to females"
Would that not be contradicting and hypocritical "Don't talk to OM but I'm going to talk to females"
Not when you agree with her and start working on the D. Not advocating you start dating or have a EA/PA.
I spent months trying to bust an EA between W and OM. Would that not be contradicting and hypocritical "Don't talk to OM but I'm going to talk to females"
Are you telling me that you don't talk to anyone of the opposite sex?
What you are implying is that talking to a female would be the same as your W having an A with OM. That is not what Gucci would tell you. He's saying to GAL and start talking to other women and stop giving your WAW all your attention. She doesn't want it.....so start giving it to others and see what happens.
What I am saying is I DO NOT have friends of the opposite sex. Yes I talk to people of the opposite sex, I work with them. I would have to go out and make friends.
Some believe that when all else fails.....rely upon good old human nature to work. Do you understand what I mean? Your W is the same as throwing you away b/c she doesn't want you any longer. However, if she thought some other chick was looking at you with interest....her tune would change in a hurry if she stills loves you. If she really & truly doesn't give a donkey's tail flip about who, what, etc....then that is when I say it's REALLY over.
What you are implying is that talking to a female would be the same as your W having an A with OM. That is not what Gucci would tell you. He's saying to GAL and start talking to other women and stop giving your WAW all your attention. She doesn't want it.....so start giving it to others and see what happens.
Well, I look at it this way...
YOUR wife was having an EA.. You have caught HER twice... right?...
The reality and the facts are showing that YOU are the one trying to save the relationship. SHE is the one talking to the opposite sex.
YOU are now NOT talking to the opposite sex and YOU are the one getting rejected.
So, in REALITY and TRUTH.. The person that wants someone else and has been mingling with the opposite sex is the one that has the spouse trying as hard as anyone has ever tried to save the relationship. It hasn't turned you against her in the least.. The reality seems to be that you want her more than ever, can't let go, are waiting on her every whim and would love nothing more than to be loved back..
The person that is NOT talking to someone of the opposite sex is getting rejected. The person not mingling or talking (notice I didn't say to get married or sleep with the first woman you have a good laugh with).. with the opposite sex is being told that it is over and seeing so much anger that things are getting thrown and broken..
It seems to me that what SHE is doing is the thing that is working and has brought you around. What are those things she is doing that brought you around? An EA, telling you she is done, taking away her love, pulling back, being in her own world etc. etc..
That is the reality that I see OIN..
OIN,
You have a choice to make. You can keep doing what isn't working, or you can listen to the wise words of Gucci, Puppy, Sandi and Coach. I have seen the WAS change their tune when the LBS follows the advise of these very wise mentors......
Choose wisely.
My thoughts are with you.
I think I'd be going next door to mom and dad's.
Is it no possible to give a WAS speech and still remain in the same household and just detach?
detachment is something I have not been successful at apparently. We were both invited to friends for the 4th. We both, as it stand now, are invited.
The issue has been and I will admit I had a hard time following/implementing advice giving. I pursuit too much and when things got slightly better I'd jump all over it. She'd give an inch I'd go the mile.
I am currently in a detach state of mind where I was not before. So its not fair to say that the advice giving by other board members has failed but rather I failed to follow their advice.
I am also at the point where I now see the logic behind Gucci's approach but I am uncertain on how to apply to my situation and I don't want to follow through till I have it figured out.
Sounds to me, OIN, that your final four paragraphs kinda answer your own question that you pose in your first. Puppy
I hate to jump on the band wagon, but I recognize myself in you and your "fear" of letting go.
When I finally gave my W the "speech" and told her I didn't want to be in an open marriage and everything else that we are advised to say, she threw me some crumbs and I thought, "wow, they were right, this works, I am out of the woods." Like I said, she would leave me just enough crumbs to throw me off. I wanted things to improve overnight and stopped the detachment and tried to show her that I could win her back. The calm time would last about a week and things would revert back to the way they were.
I think I've given my W three of the speeches. I think I am finally there. I have talked to a L in the past and have an appt with a different one next week. I told my W that I agreed we needed to move forward with a S and D and since she was making no move to do so even after telling me that was the only thing that she wanted, I would initiate things on my own.
And guess what? The past couple of days, she has been friendly, talkative and pretty pleasant to be around. What does it mean? IDK. I do know that it won't last. My only hope is when I meet with the L next week and she knows I am doing "something" about this sitch instead of waiting and hoping for her to change her mind, that she will change her mind. And if she doesn't, that's okay, too. Enough of the eggshells and crumbs. It is no way to live. I have already mourned the loss of my wife and marriage. They are both gone, never to return.
The old me is gone, also.
So, it's out with the old and in with the new. You have to throw all of the old crap out, and I mean ALL of it, to make room for the new. It may be with a new, stronger M than before with a W who understands her part in the failure in the old M. Or, it may be just the new and improved you who has learned from your past mistakes and will not repeat them. Either way, you will be better than you are right now. Are you happy? Are you having any fun? I can't answer for you, only for myself, and the answer is no. I have fun with my kids, and when I GAL. I have got in touch with old friends who have missed me and enjoy my company. I do not have fun with my W because she refuses to let me in. And I have done a good job of pushing her away. When she is around, I only show her the happy, fun side of me that she hasn't seen in too long. She will not join in activties with me. It's okay, though. She has her reasons and feelings about the sitch that are as real to her as mine are.
We learn and and discover things at our own pace. I can't convince you anymore than those her who know a whole lot more about this than I do. Just think of what you have been through and the continued pain and confusion. What are you doing that works?
LET GO-of the fear and pain, of the uncertainty of the future and what it may or may not bring.
Could it really be any worse than you are feeling now?
Legally you cannot ask your W to leave if she is part owner of the home. I mean you can ask her but if she says no you will have no legal recourse.
What you CAN do is pack her up and send her to the guest room.
I agree, you are afraid of your W. Honestly, it would have been very helpful to know your ages and how short your marriage has been. For a long time I thought the two of you were much older and married for 10 years. Your W is only 25 today and really has been dating you since she has been a child.
Your W has lots of growing up to do in so many ways and the only way that might happen is for her to have to fend for herself. It sounds like her dad will pick up the slack but nothing you can do about that.
You were very mean to her before because you were afraid to lose her. You are now smothering her and trying to get her to see things "your way" so you don't lose her. Haven't you already kind of lost her? With that mindset you really have nothing left to lose.
You can't waffle though. You can't have a scene like you did then ask her 24 hours later to go see a movie.
I really think you could benefit greatly from C'ing. If you work for the law (officer?) it seems you would have something available to you. If you can afford DB Coaching sessions it seems you could use those funds for a C if you need to.
I would put your W up in the guest room and let her know you have decided this isn't working for you anymore. Detach, get your own life and proceed forward. Sit her down and let her know it is time to come up with some plans as far as what you will both need to contribute to manage the household/money until things are finalized. As per her patterns she will pitch a fit. Let her go move in with daddy or let her sulk and bitch at home. Either way don't let it get a rise out of you.
Once you start C'ing and your W prods about it I would simply tell her that you are in the middle of making some major life transitions and you are choosing to learn from your past mistakes to build the best future you can for yourself.
Your W is a "fighter" and I don't say that in a good way. She will do all she can do to suck you back in to her drama and childish ways.
There is no longer a quest room. W and I decided to toss old bedset a couple weeks back.
Not only is she part owner of the house. We are first time home buyers, and we received the 8K grant from the gov. with that we both agreed to reside in the home for a 3 year period and not sell the hom before 3 years has expired, if so we have to pay the full amount back.
In what context do you mean afraid? Yes, I don't want to lose her and I am trying to convince myself I already lost her. Not only was I attached to my W but I am still attached to her family. They have absolutely no clue what is going on. This would devastate them but of course they would all side with W.
FIL will indeed pick up the slack. My W is his everything. Thats the thing, allowing time for W to miss me won't really happen because her father will be her crutch (along with the rest of her family. She has great family support, they all think the world of her).
I think W is growing up as we speak, she came out of her shell and finally seen things for what they were. W is very strong willed, once you break her trust, it is VERY hard to get back. As I mentioned long ago she has pretty much shut her own mother out.
I had gone to counceling provided by my employer but you are only allowed so many sessions before they refer you to someone else. My insurance does cover it I believe but was advised not to use insurance for such purpose because it will cause alarm and could cause issues for my employment.
I had gone to a theraphy session but did not think the therapist could help with my situation and it was suggested to dump her. I started to talk to a pastor at church. W has knowledge of me seeking help but can careless. As she had put it "pat yourself on the back" , "I'm glad your making youself better, you can make someone else happy" I posted such comments in the past and was told "don't listen to anything W says it is right in DR/DB book."
Yes I shelled out the money for DB coach in hope it would improve my sitch. I wanted to make sure at the time I tried everything possible. I have still yet called for my last session because as you have alluded to earlier they don't grasp the whole state of our sitch.
I am honestly at a loss as to what else to tell you. It seems you always have a reason why you can't do something.
Don't have a guest room anymore because you threw out the old bedroom set? No problem! Head to Target and get a blow up mattress. Instant guest room.
Divorce is messy and expensive and contracts and obligations have to be paid. If you do divorce it won't absolve you from your obligation to the contract you signed for your home but the two of you will simply have to pay it. It's how these things go.
C'ing isn't for your W it would be for YOU. How could you know after ONE session the therapist could not help you? And C'ing sessions are private and I believed covered under HIPPA laws so you would be protected.
Honestly, you are a hard read. It was just y'day after months of posting where it was made clear you had only been married for 9 months and your W only turned 25 today and she has already had an affair. You always have said "together for 10 yrs" which I assumed (incorrectly) meant married 10 years.
Maybe Puppy or somebody will have something to say that can help you out but I really don't know what else to offer. It just seems you always find a reason why you can't. You don't seem to want to take any tangible steps to detach or GAL.
That is not the case.I am just telling you what lies ahead. So many of you are saying "tell her to leave" when legally I cannot.
I have thought about it long and hard and I am at the point where I am ready to let her go as so many of you suggested BUT there are so many variables involved that it is not that easy (for me at least because I am living it).
Lets be clear I am not making excuses but providing the facts before us.
I will look into counseling again and this time use my insurance. I spoke with a co-worker tonight and I feel more comfortable about this now.
CG since we are both in NYS you know as I do there is no such thing as no-fault divorce. W cannot make claims of any incident prior to our marriage and even then she would need to provide occurrences. So the route she has to take is separation for a year that will turn into a divorce once the year has concluded. I heard from someone that they have made divorce that much harder in NYS that judges are forcing couples to one year marriage counseling before divorce can be finalized, so I heard...
I know divorces are messy and costly and I do not want to go through that hence why I am DBing.
You are incorrect about several things. I have been trapped in a legal battle for going on 27 months so I am aware of the proceedings.
A judge cannot force anybody to go to marriage C'ing for one year. Almost unheard of. I asked my attny about that a long while ago, he has been practicing family law for 34 years and never once had it happen.
There are several grounds to file under and you would be best suited to file under Cruel and Inhumane Treatment.
And no, the separation doesn't magically turn into a divorce after one year. You must file for the divorce after one year and the Separation Agreement serves as the divorce grounds to become a "no fault" divorce. To reach a legal separation in NY you must proceed the same as a divorce except you will be legally separated once the proceedings are over. I have been through it... both the divorce and separation proceedings and I am very well schooled in this.
Where on Earth are you getting this legal info from?
DO NOT under ANY circumstance put your W on your health insurance. Just don't do it.
Your marriage is classed as a "young marriage" (under 10 yrs in this state after ten yrs. it is vintage and things get VERY sticky) and since you both work/provide your own insurance there is a good chance neither of you would have to be support. But I would be VERY cautious about all your W's medical problems. If she does get a firm diagnosis she might be classed as an unhealthy person via the state (I am due to my Lupus) and that will change the game drastically.
And just so you know, a separation still requires grounds. You don't just go in and ask for a separation, you must have a formal Separation Agreement with formal grounds.
i am no veteran.
and i can't believe i'm actually responding to this.
but from one stubborn person to another.
listen to what CG, gucci loafer, coach, sandi2, etc .. say.
they know what they are talking about.
i can't believe i'm responding to this because i was once as stubborn as you are now.
giving excuses for not doing something.
i'm not worthy to give advice because i'm still working on me. but i woke up a few weeks back.
i still fall back and spiral into a toilet bowl
but i get what the vets are talking about.
That is not the case.I am just telling you what lies ahead. So many of you are saying "tell her to leave" when legally I cannot.
why talk about what lies ahead?
what about the present? how are you dealing with you in the present to prepare yourself for the future?
you say you are db-ing.
what kind of things have you done or tried?
reading the books don't count.
what were the effects?
I have thought about it long and hard and I am at the point where I am ready to let her go as so many of you suggested BUT there are so many variables involved that it is not that easy (for me at least because I am living it).
variables? what variables? you either drop the rope or you don't and smother her and drive her away.
Does the cruel an inhuman treatment have to occur during the marriage? If W makes these claims does she not have to have some proof? Not saying I would contest if she took it that far and made such accusations which she has done during our sitch.
I never said I was receiving legal advice, I heard such a thing on a radio show.
My W has said she has no grounds and too bad no-fault separation is not in affect or else she would have filed by now.
Yes, the cruel and inhumane treatment must happen during the marriage. When you file (be it separation or divorce) whoever files will have to complete a statement outlining the claims (as in what was cruel and inhumane). If you don't contest it, it will be much easier.
Cruel and inhumane treatment is sort of the catch all in NY to get the ball rolling. Your W has grounds if she wants to use them and so do you. Cruel and inhumane and just don't contest. You can also contest the grounds but not the action (divorce or separation).
Your W is all talk (and clearly has no idea what she is talking about). She can file for a separation under C&I treatment tomorrow if she wants to. Her statement would probably include the verbal abuse. It's all pretty standard and your marriage is so new assets won't be an issue other than the house.
Dude, you seem to get really pissy when I ask you a question. I am not an attny but I have been jerked around by this system for 2+ years and have a pretty high powered firm working for me. So what you hear on the radio is just talk. I have binder after binder of info so if you need info just ask and I will be happy to share. My case was a total mess for lots of reasons that would not be part of your case (yet - affair, illness, considerable assets) so it is VERY important to get cold hard facts.
An EA is considered cruel and inhumane and if necessary you do have documentation as well as involvement from her supervisor at work. She wants to play games with grounds then play right back. Your W is all bark and no bite.
That is not the case.I am just telling you what lies ahead. So many of you are saying "tell her to leave" when legally I cannot.
I have thought about it long and hard and I am at the point where I am ready to let her go as so many of you suggested BUT there are so many variables involved that it is not that easy (for me at least because I am living it).
Lets be clear I am not making excuses but providing the facts before us.
I will look into counseling again and this time use my insurance. I spoke with a co-worker tonight and I feel more comfortable about this now.
CG since we are both in NYS you know as I do there is no such thing as no-fault divorce. W cannot make claims of any incident prior to our marriage and even then she would need to provide occurrences. So the route she has to take is separation for a year that will turn into a divorce once the year has concluded. I heard from someone that they have made divorce that much harder in NYS that judges are forcing couples to one year marriage counseling before divorce can be finalized, so I heard...
I know divorces are messy and costly and I do not want to go through that hence why I am DBing.
You aren't DB'ing.
What makes you think you've done any DB'ing?
You are doing things in your situation based on her reactions.
You are afraid to lose her.
She knows you're afraid to lose her.
She doesn't respect you.
Ask her to leave, don't "tell her", ask her.
You can tell her that "this isn't working out" and then you can "ask her to leave".
Stop making up so many excuses.
You won't ask her to leave because you're afraid she'll do it. You're afraid to lose her. You're afraid you'll push her out the door as you've mentioned a few times already.
You also mentioned that your situation is unique, if I had a nickel every time a poster on this site said that LOL!
What is so "unique" about your situation compared to the countless others on this site?
You're not unique, your situation is just the same as nearly every other situation on this site.
Gucci has given you excellent advice but you're afraid to make use of it. He even started a new thread on this site that pretty much everyone can make use of - it works, for pretty much every situation.
Divorces are messy and costly for both spouses, not just you, you keep thinking that this will only affect you, it won't, it will affect her also.
And another thing, there is no such thing as being forced to go to marriage counselling for one whole year, that is a lot of marriage counselling, I don't think many couples ever go that long and I doubt anyone could be forced to attend counselling.
Let her go, you were given the speech template, use it, drop the rope and move on. She has a place she can go and you have the home you're currently in, after a year of separation she can obtain the divorce, you don't have to do it for her, let her do it all herself, if she wants out so much, let her go, if you really love her, let her go, she's not happy with you and happiness is a DIY job and she needs to learn that, you can't do that for her and you will continue to fail as you have been doing trying to make her happy.
Letting her go and moving on with your life is what you need to do and you've been given that advice from quite a few of us. Stop this insanity of kissing her butt and trying to keep her and save your marriage, continuing to do this is going to get you more of the same results you've had thus far.
You want different results, do something different.
Your wife wants OUT, she doesn't want this marriage anymore, she wants freedom from you, give it to her, give her the one thing you haven't given her yet and give yourself the same gift.
Once you give her freedom from you and the marriage, you may very well see that this freedom for her will not feel at all like she thought it would feel like and she may very well want to come back and work WITH you instead of against you on this marriage when it's HER choice to do so and NOT forced on to her as it is right now.
^^^^^Perfectly Said!!! Spot on Robx!!
That is not the case.I am just telling you what lies ahead. So many of you are saying "tell her to leave" when legally I cannot.
I have thought about it long and hard and I am at the point where I am ready to let her go as so many of you suggested BUT there are so many variables involved that it is not that easy (for me at least because I am living it).
Lets be clear I am not making excuses but providing the facts before us.
I will look into counseling again and this time use my insurance. I spoke with a co-worker tonight and I feel more comfortable about this now.
CG since we are both in NYS you know as I do there is no such thing as no-fault divorce. W cannot make claims of any incident prior to our marriage and even then she would need to provide occurrences. So the route she has to take is separation for a year that will turn into a divorce once the year has concluded. I heard from someone that they have made divorce that much harder in NYS that judges are forcing couples to one year marriage counseling before divorce can be finalized, so I heard...
I know divorces are messy and costly and I do not want to go through that hence why I am DBing.
You aren't DB'ing.
What makes you think you've done any DB'ing?
You are doing things in your situation based on her reactions.
You are afraid to lose her.
She knows you're afraid to lose her.
She doesn't respect you.
Ask her to leave, don't "tell her", ask her.
You can tell her that "this isn't working out" and then you can "ask her to leave".
Stop making up so many excuses.
You won't ask her to leave because you're afraid she'll do it. You're afraid to lose her. You're afraid you'll push her out the door as you've mentioned a few times already.
You also mentioned that your situation is unique, if I had a nickel every time a poster on this site said that LOL!
What is so "unique" about your situation compared to the countless others on this site?
You're not unique, your situation is just the same as nearly every other situation on this site.
Gucci has given you excellent advice but you're afraid to make use of it. He even started a new thread on this site that pretty much everyone can make use of - it works, for pretty much every situation.
Divorces are messy and costly for both spouses, not just you, you keep thinking that this will only affect you, it won't, it will affect her also.
And another thing, there is no such thing as being forced to go to marriage counselling for one whole year, that is a lot of marriage counselling, I don't think many couples ever go that long and I doubt anyone could be forced to attend counselling.
Let her go, you were given the speech template, use it, drop the rope and move on. She has a place she can go and you have the home you're currently in, after a year of separation she can obtain the divorce, you don't have to do it for her, let her do it all herself, if she wants out so much, let her go, if you really love her, let her go, she's not happy with you and happiness is a DIY job and she needs to learn that, you can't do that for her and you will continue to fail as you have been doing trying to make her happy.
Letting her go and moving on with your life is what you need to do and you've been given that advice from quite a few of us. Stop this insanity of kissing her butt and trying to keep her and save your marriage, continuing to do this is going to get you more of the same results you've had thus far.
You want different results, do something different.
Your wife wants OUT, she doesn't want this marriage anymore, she wants freedom from you, give it to her, give her the one thing you haven't given her yet and give yourself the same gift.
Once you give her freedom from you and the marriage, you may very well see that this freedom for her will not feel at all like she thought it would feel like and she may very well want to come back and work WITH you instead of against you on this marriage when it's HER choice to do so and NOT forced on to her as it is right now.
And CityGirl, I can't help anymore either, I'm afraid. Everything at this point is just beating a dead horse -- "Asked and answered."
I will pray for you, though, OIN. For strength and courage and clarity.
Puppy
OIN,
don't take my post as me beating you up,
I just tried to be as real with you as I possibly could,
you need a dose of reality, so does your wife, just like PDT said above, I hope you find the strength, courage and clarity that will enable you to do what must be done.
I don't want you to get divorced, I don't want anyone to get divorced, I really do believe in the methods that have been prescribed to you by Gucci and Puppy and all the other veterans on this site, I believe in doing what works, and this is what works.
OIN you say you have a hard time implementing the advice. What exactly do you find difficult about it? (I am not being jerky, I am really just trying to understand)
For me, I knew what I needed to say and do with my H but my H is a master at getting me off track. He can get you talking in circles until you can't even remember what the initial conversation was about. So I get it isn't always easy to remember all this stuff when you are in the heat of the moment.
When people fight change (generally speaking, not you or your W per say) there is a reason for it. So when I say you are afraid of your W I don't mean you are afraid for your safety. I mean you are afraid of doing something that will put the final nail in the coffin so to speak.
Don't fool yourself that your situation is unique. It's not. I know it feels unique because it is your life but it's all pretty run of the mill WAS stuff.
CG, I'm anxious to hear OIN's response, but he has stated several times, and very strongly, that what he fears is "not taking care of my wife, and pushing her away, and then someone else will."
(I'm paraphrasing, but not by much)
Personally, I think the woman has a lot of baggage, so I don't know if she's like a "9" or a "10" in the looks department or something, but between her attitude and her health, I honestly don't think anyone else is going to put up with her the way OIN does.
Not trying to be cruel or anything -- just agreeing with an observation that someone else had made previously, and I also think it's relevant since OIN has said, repeatedly, that THAT is his fear.
Puppy
I have a feeling that almost no one on this green earth will support her in the manner of which OIN is. The reason i said almost nobody, because I know her father probably would. I hope her father wouldn't enable her current behaviors because it will mess her up to stay on it even if people allow it.
OIN should consider this. Might do a dumping strategy to get her to wake up.
I am guilty of enabling some bad behaviors which bassically messed up my current wife for the recent time being, nothing I could have done but left, but oh well. Going into this I would not do high maintenance for a "9 or 10", because to me its still a female. But I am guilty of having done it in this particular situationg. Coming out of it I won't do it again.
OIN,
I decided to table something before, because we were focusing on other goals, but can you tell me why it is -- if they live so close -- that YOUR family has never even SEEN your house?
It seems to me that a first-time home purchase, for someone your age, is a big thing, worthy of celebration and acknowledgement?
Puppy
OIN,
When you don't take the advise we have seen work with others and keep doing things that we have never seen work, we get frustrated. We want you to find your balls again and stand up to this woman. We want you to do this to gain respect which makes you more attractive. She wants out. AGREE WITH HER THAT THIS ISN'T WORKING FOR YOU EITHER. Pack her stuff up, move her into another room. The master bedroom is now YOURS. Until you do this, there is no reason for us to help you anymore.
True, it isn't working. He's enabling the current style of interaction, which isn't going to get anybetter. Its not going to get any better because her question is "why do I have to?", plus she's acting according to the way she see's it. I'm in the same boat.
OIN,
When you don't take the advise we have seen work with others and keep doing things that we have never seen work, we get frustrated.
Isn't it interesting that OIN does the same thing with us as he does with his wife. Instead of REALLY LISTENING, and validating, he insteads tries to tell us (her) why WE are wrong, and how our feelings don't work for HIM.
Hmmmmmmm.
Puppy
...Instead of REALLY LISTENING, and validating, he instead tries to tell us (her) why WE are wrong, and how our feelings don't work for HIM.
Good thing we know how to set and enforce boundaries.....
Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it, seriously. I don't get "pissy" just really confused.
In DR/DB it is said that for every year that it was bad in a R it will that that many months, assuming no A. I am on month 6. the 1st month I had yet to discover DR/DB or this forum. Month 2 I started to DB by following DR book but then soon realized there was some type of A going on. I then came to this forum and got tremendous help. I confronted the A. I started to DB now at the recommendation of other posters which pretty much adhered to what is in the books but put emphasis on GAL and detaching (something I failed to get the hang of). After one month of this approach (not exactly following it as I should) I rediscovered the same EA. I then busted it with the assistance of many of you.
It was said that it should be "easier" to DB now that OM is out the picture and it may take 12 weeks from that time for her to get completely over him. That brought us to month 4-5 of my sitch. So Throughout this time many of you had suggested the same approach as you do now. I decided to go with a different approach suggested by a member of this board who I felt "got it."
The BIG PROBLEM is and has always has been I failed to detach. I hung of W's every word and over analyzed her every action.
SO in all I have DB for a total of 2 months without the interference of OM, why should I expect a turn around in such short time and switch to this approach? It is not the approach that has failed me but rather me failing to adhere to the guidelines of the approach.
If for months I had successfully GAL and detached from W all while doing my 180's and I would not hesitate taking this new approach.
PDT I would not say you "hit the nail on the head" but close. For years my W has been nothing but superb toward and I could not had asked for a better partner in life (honestly, she was amazing). I did and said the things I have over the course of 10 years and now my W is a COMPLETELY different person. I do not know who this person is. All this "baggage" is something new (besides her being ill often). I just think that my W is somewhere still inside this person she has become. There is so much guilt of "If I had not treated her the way I did then we would never be in this mess." I don't take all the blame for a failed marriage but I do take the blame for getting us to this point.
OIN,
I decided to table something before, because we were focusing on other goals, but can you tell me why it is -- if they live so close -- that YOUR family has never even SEEN your house?
It seems to me that a first-time home purchase, for someone your age, is a big thing, worthy of celebration and acknowledgement?
We purchased the home in November. Soon as we moved in we started to make interior changes to the home. FIL helped with a lot of this. We get terrible winters up her in Buffalo and once the snow hit our efforts died down. Our sitch began in January, W lost all interest in the home and I became obsessed with our sitch. We would sparingly do updates here and there when things got a little better between us but the house was never in any condition to have company over. When W came to me 4 weeks ago and asked for a party and wanted to invite her family I thought it was a HUGE step in the right direct. The reason why it was just her family is because my parents are our tenants and my parents have hosted many gatherings with my family and they have had the opportunity to see our work in progress. We set a date and made every effort to make sure the house was presentable for the 26th. Things between us were going really well too and then they just started to fall apart because she got upset and I panicked and started talking R and since then she has just been pushing me away.
Isn't it interesting that OIN does the same thing with us as he does with his wife. Instead of REALLY LISTENING, and validating, he insteads tries to tell us (her) why WE are wrong, and how our feelings don't work for HIM.
Hmmmmmmm. smirk
Puppy
I never said any of you were "wrong" what I am saying is, I thought I was DBing but I was not. I failed to GAL and detach and give W space. I am only saying should I not try the less drastic approach but do it right this time?
As for our sitch, W slept all day on her birthday. I went to work. W text me as she normally does when she was leaving for work and arrived at work, I did NOT respond to any of those message. I had a late night at work and court this morning and so was sleeping when W got home. She did not txt me when she left work as she usually does so she must had got the hint. W just simply came home laid in bed and went to sleep herself, we did not exchange any words just briefly glanced at each other and both went to sleep.
----------
Excuse me for jumping around here but I wanted to go back to something....
It was said to me countless times on this forum "OIN you are very fortunate and there are many people on this forum who would love to be in your place"
I read so many threads where the WAS is no longer in the home and would not give the LBS the time of day and here I am sleeping in same bed as W and still going out and enjoying activities with here.
All these things I hear W say, I have heard her say before and as many have told me "It's just script, DR/DB says listen to nothing WAS says and only half of what they do. Detach" I continued to fall for the script and get drawn into a R talk. I failed to detach.
I agree with limiting our interactions and not be around so much so W can observe my every move and word but should I really stop all interactions in a sense and no longer do anything with W?
I failed to GAL and detach and give W space. I am only saying should I not try the less drastic approach but do it right this time?
the less drastic approach?! and what would that be?
why do you want to take a less drastic approach?
See, the less drastic approach would involve you detaching BIG TIME and GAL'ing. It's not that you no longer do anything with your W but now you let her come to you instead of asking her to go places with you.
Just because your W is in the house and sleeping in the bed it doesn't make it a good situation. Those really aren't positives if the rest of the time is spent fighting, R talking and basically living in a very stressful home.
Until you detach and stop trying to get your W to see things "your way" nothing will change. You have to start letting your W see that you are going to be fine either way and TODAY you start building a life for YOU.
You don't seem to have the strength to follow the "soft" plan because you get sucked in each time. The "harsh" plan is all done is one big swoop which IMO would be better for you as you can't stay on the "soft" plan approach for any length of time.
Get the time lines out of your head. Everybody says affairs don't last and my H's is lasting just fine and the live together. Maybe some affairs fizzle in a year or so but not all. So 12 weeks, 4 months... whatever!
I failed to GAL and detach and give W space. I am only saying should I not try the less drastic approach but do it right this time?
the less drastic approach?! and what would that be?
why do you want to take a less drastic approach?
Good question.
OIN, I understand your reluctance to do what you have been told, over and over, to do. I did the same thing. Here I am, six months later, still stuck and nothing has changed. Read my thread and see if you see any similarities. I tried the less drastic approach. You can see where it got me.
I am still having trouble doing what I know I need to do. I still have that fear of losing my W. The trouble is, I have already lost her. The only thing left to do is let her go. Not just a little or threaten to let her go, just do it and let her find out for herself how things will be when she gets what she says she wants. Give her what she wants, don't argue with her. She had told you numerous times and so has my W. It's past time to stop disagreeing with her.
My appt. with my L is next Wed. I'm not really looking forward to it. I'm not looking forward to spending the rest of my life waiting for a crumb or two from my W and hoping for a couple of good days a month. That is no way to live.
Dig down deep and take the approach that gives you the best chance of turning things around, gives you back control of your life and demands respect from your W. She may throw a fit, but she will have to respect the decision you made to stand up for yourself and your family.
Less drastic means "easier". Give her what she wants. Simple as that.
I am done with trying to get W to see things "my way." I am done with the R talks.
Just because your W is in the house and sleeping in the bed it doesn't make it a good situation. Those really aren't positives if the rest of the time is spent fighting, R talking and basically living in a very stressful home
This has only been the case for the past week, more so for this past weekend.
It appears that (and I could be very wrong) my posts are being scanned and only the negative is being brought to the forefront. All the positive interactions between my W and I over the past 5 weeks or so seem to be dismissed.
IF I was able to follow the "soft" approach as intended I think we would be a lot better off right now. For example I would go somewhere and ask W if she would like to join me, if she said no I would say "Why not?" or not go myself. I had to many expectations.
Less drastic means "easier". Give her what she wants. Simple as that.
exactly my point. what are you expecting by taking the 'easier' route?
you admitted to failing at GAL, giving space, and detaching.
to me, GAL should be the easiest thing to do.
yet, you failed at that too.
you fear saying things to drive her away.
GAL doesn't involve words. it's actions. you. getting out.
doing something for yourself.
there are no words exchanged. there is no agenda or whatever against your w. you are not hurting her by GAL-ing. unless your version of GAL involves finding one-night stands.
the choice is yours.
Less drastic means "easier". Give her what she wants. Simple as that.
exactly my point. what are you expecting by taking the 'easier' route?
you admitted to failing at GAL, giving space, and detaching.
to me, GAL should be the easiest thing to do.
yet, you failed at that too.
you fear saying things to drive her away.
GAL doesn't involve words. it's actions. you. getting out.
doing something for yourself.
there are no words exchanged. there is no agenda or whatever against your w. you are not hurting her by GAL-ing. unless your version of GAL involves finding one-night stands.
the choice is yours.
GAL is one of the easiest things to do? Yet threads I read LBS talks about how difficult it is.
Just as someone said I was being "pissy" You come across as argumentative. I understand you all are only trying to help, I get it.
I admitted my failures in my DB attempts. You honestly think any of this is easy "soft" or "harsh"?
If GAL and detaching is part of both the easy or "soft" and the "harsh" Then where is the wrong in starting off "soft" and GAL/Detach the right way and see where it gets me in a week or so and if no improvement I will take the "harsh" route. It is very difficult to have the speech with my W when all she does is sleep all day.
There is no easy way to do this. You have to completely let go. Period.
The problem is that you are acting out of hurt like a child who doesn't get what they want one moment, and then like an austere parent reprimanding a child other times.
That's the dynamic that you cannot beat in your interactions with your W.
You are going to have to let go of all of your fear. If she leaves, fine. Help her pack. If she doesn't leave, I guess that's OK too so long are she (and you) are not openenly insulting. No R-talk, and if there is R talk like her saying "this isn't working", then just agree with her.
You have not done this, and I don't expect you to be able to do it this time either. To really detach you have to shift all of your focus away from her and your marriage and focus on yourself and controling yourself and just being happy.
This misery is wearing on everybody trying to help you, and you just rationalizing it here is what you do at home as well aparently.
You can't control your W. She can't control you. Your attempts to control one another for whatever reasons are working against you.
If GAL and detaching is part of both the easy or "soft" and the "harsh" Then where is the wrong in starting off "soft" and GAL/Detach the right way and see where it gets me in a week or so and if no improvement I will take the "harsh" route.
you still have yet to define what *you* mean by "soft" vs. "harsh".
GAL is one of the easiest things to do? Yet threads I read LBS talks about how difficult it is.
i'm not going to draw comparisons and all but because it has been difficult for others to GAL, you're going to not even try to GAL because others have said that it's hard to do?
others have said that detaching and dropping the rope works. but you're resisting that.
help me understand what it is that you are looking for.
it is heartbreaking to see you like this because i have been in those stubborn shoes. trust me.
but you have to back up your claims with your experience. not with the experience of others.
here's another idea.
the vets here often advocate that you validate your spouse. "you're right. the m isn't working."
how about validating CG, TH, or anybody here who has given you advice?
it is heartbreaking to see you like this because i have been in those stubborn shoes. trust me.
We've all been where he is right now, and we all know what happened when we were like that.
If I knew back then what I know now...? Woulda, shoulda, coulda. Who knows?
If it were easy, everybody would be doing it, and divorce would be rare.
i'm not going to draw comparisons and all but because it has been difficult for others to GAL, you're going to not even try to GAL because others have said that it's hard to do?
others have said that detaching and dropping the rope works. but you're resisting that.
No, I am trying it. Yes it is hard but my comments stemmed from your comments that GAL was one of the easiest things to do.
What am I looking for? To let go and validate W when she tells me she wants out. It would be so much easier if W did not enagage or interact with me at all but that is not the case. We still do thinks together.
Let me try to get to a point here...If W ask me if I want to do something do I say yes or no?
Today after my last post, W woke up as I was getting ready for work. I cannot say I ignored her but I certainly did not engage with her.
I haded downstairs W came done shorly after. W walked into the kitchen where I was and W asked "DO you know if whe have any..." and I replied "Yes, and pointed it out to her" W then said "Thank you." I finished getting ready for work headed out the door and said "see you" and W said "bye" in a tone I have not heard form her before....almost in a tone as if she were surprized I was just walking out the door and not doing my ritual "bye, good night"
If W ask me if I want to do something do I say yes or no?
Depends. If you are GAL, then often you will have other plans, right?
The point is to stop coordinating every darn thing you do with her.
I can't believe you have nothing to do at all if you GAL every time she wants to do something.
I don't care if you are just doing crap around the house (projects), going out on a bike ride or something, walking the dog, meeting up with some old friends, visiting your family, or whatever.
GAL.
The point is to stop coordinating every darn thing you do with her.
I can't believe you have nothing to do at all if you GAL every time she wants to do something.
TH is right.
i couldn't find the right words to say it but TH is right.
the point is to stop coordinating everything you do with her.
my second issue is, stop reading/analyzing everything she says or what tone she's using or that you've never heard it before. i may not be a vet but i personally don't think it matters. i think by analyzing everything she says or does or what her mood is today gives you an excuse to not db effectively. so if you fail, it's you. it's not the methods.
you are still too focused on her. that's why GAL is hard for you. you have to put the focus back on yourself.
stop focusing on her and do stuff that is about you only.
meet up with YOUR friends, go take YOUR car to the car wash, go see YOUR parents/family.
Can you all evaluate my WAS speech
<W name> I have been doing some thinking and here is what I have decided. I NOW realize that you really don't want this marriage or me anymore. I realize that what I have done in the past has destroyed any chance of you ever loving me again. I have been trying to keep you and get you to love me back with making some changes to be a better husband that should have been made a long time ago. I now realize that no matter how much I try and no matter how much I wanted this to work that your mind is made up and your feelings are not going to change. I go to the point where, I AGREE that it is too late and that we can not make this work. I realize that my efforts have done nothing but annoy you. I will no longer make an effort to try to save this marriage. I am sorry that I haven't been paying attention to how badly you wanted out of this marriage, but after the past couple weeks it really hit me that it isn't going to work and that you are RIGHT.
Also does the ring come off? and how should our interactions be from that point forward?
All hell just broke loose and the final nail is in the coffin.
W was upstairs and I was down stairs at the kitchen table re-reading WAS speech when there was a knock at the door, I go answer the door W comes downstairs at the same time and grabs my laptop then walks into the bathroom and locks herself in.
I asked W if she can hand me my laptop back and she said "I will be out in a few minutes" knowing I had left the draft email open I knew she was reading it...
W comes out pushed the laptop into my chest and tells me "I'm done with you, all of this, next week it will all be over."
I asked W "Did you read the email?" W said "I read more than the email, I read the eBlaster reports" My stomach dropped, I had forgot all about the keylogger reports that were sent to that email address, seems like the email I composed was the least of my worries. W also went into my drafts folder and seen documentation I was keeping on our sitch.
I instantly felt the need to defend myself, when i tried to speak up W just simply told me "I don't care what you have to say, I am done, this house is getting sold also."
W went on to express her disgust in her discoveries. I was in shock and did not know how to respond or what to say.
I said to W "I was/am keeping a log of our interactions and conversations I have/had with a marriage support group." W wanted to see my laptop again to see the logs. I was logging back onto the account when W snatch my laptop and tried to lock herself in the bathroom again. I took laptop back from W after she attempted to break it in half. W then said "See I told you there is something to hide, you never change"
W then went to bash all my efforts in the past 6 months and tell me how I did not change and I was till the same ol' person. W then started to use profanity toward me. If you knew my W, She has not swore a day (as I can recall) in the past 10 years and here she is now dropping f-bombs on me. I was in shock.
When W was telling me that marriage is over, I would validate and say things like "I agree this marriage is not going to work" ect.. W got so upset with me validating she then threatened to make the process hell for me.
I did not once oppose anything she said to me but rather agreed/validated that the marriage is indeed over. It just added fuel to the fire. I remained calm throughout while W yelled and belittled me throwing 10 years back in my face.
W snatched my house keys and put them in her pocket and told me to leave.
complete unexpected chain of events, I am unsure how to proceed from here. I did leave, I am not next door at my parents.
CG,
W said and I read that senate passed no-fault marriage in NYS. W then tells me that it will go into affect next week. I read nothing of the sorts but did read that it has to go through state assembly first.
W then claims that there is a such thing as joint custody of animals? (our dog)
There is no turning back nor improving our situation. I still had hope for reconciliation but now see that it will be virtually impossible giving tonight's events. I guess now I should know how to protect myself legally.
W TM me this morning and said
"I feel so betrayed by you more than words could say. I feel violated and uncomfortable being anywhere near you."
She needs professional help. You both do. Certainly more than you can give her, or even we can talk you through.
This is probably for the best, OIN. Let her go.
I'm sorry.
Puppy
well that is understandable. If giving the opportunity do I tell W the intents of the keylogger?
In this email account I also kept DB notes such as goals and advice I gathered from the forum. I also use to journal each day when our sitch began. I also have unsent drafts of pursuing emails I typed out when our sitch had first began.
well that is understandable. If giving the opportunity do I tell W the intents of the keylogger?
It seems to me that you don't act when it's time to act, and then you mull things over too much and then try to use talk to get the results YOU want.
At the time she was throwing a fit, if you had GAL, focused on yourself, and had begun to drop the rope, you probably would have said something like, "Sure, you were having an affair, so I wanted to know what I was up against and if this M was worth saving, and you were telling me one thing and doing another, so I was making sure I had the whole story".
Alas, stop trying to fix this. You're just making things nastier at this point.
Really, it's time to stop trying to control one another. Period. If you keep trying to control her, she will try to control you and make you miserable--she said so.
You need to go completely dark......COMPLETELY! Get a good lawyer.
W TM me this morning and said
"I feel so betrayed by you more than words could say. I feel violated and uncomfortable being anywhere near you."
Sounds like a crock of $hit. She's saying she feels how you should be feeling. WAS's do this.
you should get back in your house,
let her react anyway she wants to,
you need to stop feeling 100% of the weight of the responsibility in this situation, she was having an affair regardless of what kind, she was preparing to move out, somehow she turned this around on you (like usual) and made you the bad guy and apparently she feels "betrayed" by you?!
WTF?!
Go home.
Live in your home,
if you guys sell the home, it will be after you're divorced, not before so don't worry about any of her threats about selling the home, tell her "that's fine, we'll sell the home after you file for divorce, not before, I don't have to move out until then, you have a place ready for you, you're free to go whenever you want just DON'T tell me what I need to do or that I need to leave, I'll make that decision on my own, thank you"
One more thing, stop arguing with her, you can't win, it's logic vs. emotion and her emotion trumps your logic everytime, you can't explain anything to her, there is no commonsense to work with, better to be quiet & calm & collected throughout all of this instead of joining her in an argument.
As far as the joint custody of pets goes,
I haven't heard of that but just agree with her,
"that's cool with me, whatever works"
I agree with Rob and also Puppy.
FWIW (as ridiculous as this sounds, lol!) there is a place for "pet custody and financial arrangement" when filling out separation/divorce papers in NY!
My papers say "one pet <insert pet info here>, full ownership to CityGirl with no visitation or financial obligation from Mr. CityGirl"
LOL!
Hey all.
Unfortunately Your advice did not reach me in time.
I spent the night of the 4th over my parents as I mentioned. The following morning I got that text as I quoted.
Shortly after W txt me that I could come over and get some things. I went over and got some things. I don;t know how it happened but we got into a divorce argument where she would give all the reasons why she wants a divorce and I would tell her I agree. It got pretty heated on her part and ugly at one point. No validating was going to end the argument so I just left.
W then asked me to comeback over that she had to ask me a question I went over and she asked me a question non R-related. W then initiated R talk basically telling me everything I have done up to this point was waste of time that I would never change and there were things I could have said or done to make things good again but she would not say what they were.
I ended it by agreeing divorce was the answer and that it was for the best.
I then spent last night at parents again. W txt me asking to come over something that had to do with the dog. W got into it again briefly about divorce, I gathered more things. W then asked me if I could babysit the dog while she goes grocery shopping. I did not do it.
W left and shortly after I left and went to hang out with a friend.
A few hours later, W txt me "when you get home there is a letter on the table for you"
I get home and here is what the letter read.
===================
It is hard for me to say this, or even write this in the past you had made me feel so ugly, so worthless, a waste of space and even a burden. I felt like everything I did was wrong and I could never do anything right. And that's all I ever see when I looked in the mirror. All I wanted is to be happy to be proud of myself and see myself for what I am when I do look in the mirror but things still haven't changed. I'm not happy. I said divorce thinking that it would make things better. I dont honestly know if it would. Is running away and giving up everything I have, the answer? Will it give me what I want? Will it give me happiness if I have nothing. I wish life was easy. I wish the answers were clear. If I tried and stayed in this relationship it would be a long time before I could trust you again. And I dont know if I could ever believe that I mean the world to you. I really don't know what to do or what the answer is, that is why I haven't filed for anything or done anything yet. All I have been doing is crying and my headaches have gotten worse. It's hard for me to talk because I have been vulnerable for so long, I want to feel strong, but all I feel is lost and alone...I just dont know what to do!
===========================================
W walked downstairs seen that I read the letter and said "I don't want to talk right now but you can"
I gave a little speech ending it with, maybe divorce is for the best and left. W offered me food and told me a few things.
I left and then came back forgetting my phone. W asked for a favor and thought I was giving attitude. W started to cry and we exchanged a hug. W then took meds. Shortly after I left and went back next door....
Now what?
Before I comment, I'd like to know what was in your "little speech ending it"
I basically recapped my emotional roller coaster over the past 6 months then said "I spent several years of our R dictating and controlling how our R would go. Then I spent 6 months trying to keep you and once again trying to control the way the R will go, once I realized this, that I been ignoring how you truly felt. I don't want to be in a loveless marriage and maybe divorce is for the best."
something a long those lines sorry just cannot recall it all.
Shortly after W txt me that I could come over and get some things. I went over and got some things.
W then asked me to comeback over that she had to ask me a question I went over
W txt me asking to come over something that had to do with the dog.
Should I not go or I you saying when I am gone she looks for reasons for me to come back?
go back home,
she has a place to go,
she's been planning to leave,
tell her you accept that she doesn't want to be married anymore and you've been thinking about it alot and you're not sure either.
It's your home, go back home.
Weren't you the one telling us several hundred times that you can't legally force her out but all of a sudden she can force you out? Be consistent with yourself and others. Go home. If she complains, you tell her plain & simple, it's your home as well as hers, you won't be forced out of it, she has a place she's been planning to go live in, she has options, you don't, this is your home and it will be until it is sold.
No relationship talk.
Don't be an a$$hole, don't be a prick or a jerk, just be firm, calm, cool, collected and live in your home.
Second what robx said. Go back home.
I'm beginning to think that this honestly isn't possible so long as OIN is around her, or even interacts with her.
Puppy
Puppy I agree with you (big surprise, I agree with you pretty much all the time LOL), but let's look at the situation, we've been telling him to do something all this time and he wasn't willing to do it, what happened in the end? She pretty much pulled the trigger on all of the things he was supposed to do:
- she kicked him out of the house
- she told him repeatedly it won't ever work
- she shuns him/rejects him
- she treats him poorly
- she cheated on him: possible ea/pa
And yet.... he keeps pursuing her,
so indirectly he proves everything we've been telling him and others: the person being rejected is the one doing the pursuing, she keeps rejecting him, he keeps pursuing her.
Now the recent events unfold and what happens,
he leaves, stops contacting her, stops pursuing her, agrees that divorce is the best option, he starts mentioning it as the option where before he was against doing this and the results.... she slowly starts pursuing him, it's simply human psychology, human nature at it's worst and finest:
- we run away from things that pursue us
- we pursue things that reject us
- we rebel against those that control us
- he was afraid to kick her out of the house fearing he would lose her forever
- she kicks him out of the house, he doesn't fight to get back in, all of a sudden she pursues him through texting, phone calls, voicemails, whatever was used
- he pulls, she pushes him away
- she starts to pull, he pushes her away (she's now bringing up relationship talk and making excuses for him to come over so that SHE can write letters for him to read, she would not have wasted the time to do that before)
If he had started doing what we asked earlier, he would have saved a lot of time, but like most of the users on these forums, you can provide them with the logic and sound reasoning behind our advice and why it will work but they're in love with their feelings, they're in love with their emotions and don't want to do anything that doesn't "feel right". But they get all flustered and upset because they are trying to give their WAS's logic and advice and sound reasoning but get mad at their WAS's because they won't listen, because they're in love with their emotions and feelings.
I guess you can call that irony ;-)
Should I not go or I you saying when I am gone she looks for reasons for me to come back?
I am saying that she says "jump" and you say "how high" and then seem surprised
every damn time to find yourself hovering in midair.
Should I not go or I you saying when I am gone she looks for reasons for me to come back?
I am saying that she says "jump" and you say "how high" and then seem surprised
every damn time to find yourself hovering in midair.
am saying that she says "jump" and you say "how high" and then seem surprised every damn time to find yourself hovering in midair.
I am seeing Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown.
I am seeing Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown.
Yes! Much better!
Should I not go or I you saying when I am gone she looks for reasons for me to come back?
I am saying that she says "jump" and you say "how high" and then seem surprised
every damn time to find yourself hovering in midair.
Did not think of it this way but you are right. I thought by doing this I would help lower the tension between us and W would be less bitter about the divorce proceedings and wanting to force me to sell the home.
PDT,
It does seem every time we get together one of us two brings up a discussion about the state of our marriage whether it be the possibility of making it work or a conversation about divorce. In the past week divorce has been the topic of discussion
I did go back home. W and I agreed that at the very least we could maintain a civil R, why make matters more difficult. W and I both agreed that there was a lot of unnecessary tension between us.
W mentioned about having a talk tomorrow. W seems very confused right now and I want to play this safe. I don;t plan on bringing it up tomorrow (today) but rather let her initiate and talk. I actually plan I going out and doing something and try to be gone for most of the day as I did today.
IMO you two have done WAY more talking that necessary.
I would take a cooling off period. Maybe if she brings up a talk, you just tell her "you know, things have been really tense between the two of us the past couple of days, how about we take a break away from it and get back to it later"
Talking gets you in trouble.
OIN,
I find being gone for me with the kids to the park or anywhere has been great for me. Just getting away somewhere quiet really helps. I look for four-leaf clovers to keep my mind off things or to have a little more luck.
Whatever you can do to give yourself a little peace is a good thing. It gives some perspective on your sitch too.
IMO you two have done WAY more talking that necessary.
It's as if he thinks if he can find the right magic words, all will be right with the world.
Talking gets you in trouble.
For a while that's been the net result of all of this talking.
Now, if he can only find the right magic words....
And so the saga continues. Wash, rinse, repeat.
IMO you two have done WAY more talking that necessary.
It's as if he thinks if he can find the right magic words, all will be right with the world.
I can relate to that (mis-)conception. I was the exact same way!
Puppy
Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
Quote:
IMO you two have done WAY more talking that necessary.
It's as if he thinks if he can find the right magic words, all will be right with the world.
I can relate to that (mis-)conception. I was the exact same way!
Puppy
Oh, I can too! I think most of can relate to it. But how long did you go through it before you realized that your problem was trying to convince your spouse to "feel" a certain way, and their problems were things they would have to work out on their own?
I said divorce thinking that it would make things better. I dont honestly know if it would. Is running away and giving up everything I have, the answer? Will it give me what I want? Will it give me happiness if I have nothing. I wish life was easy. I wish the answers were clear. If I tried and stayed in this relationship it would be a long time before I could trust you again. And I dont know if I could ever believe that I mean the world to you. I really don't know what to do or what the answer is, that is why I haven't filed for anything or done anything yet. All I have been doing is crying and my headaches have gotten worse. It's hard for me to talk because I have been vulnerable for so long, I want to feel strong, but all I feel is lost and alone...I just dont know what to do!
This is actually GOOD news for you. See what happens when you let go and give them what they want? NOW she isn't so sure is she? SHE writes YOU a letter. You have been trying to find out what is going on in her mind for months and months and you finally let go and tell her maybe this is for the best and you aren't going to try any more because she says it isn't going to work, and LOOK what happens... SHE writes YOU a letter and starts spilling her guts. All because you finally are convincing her that you are really going to let this go. It is NOW in her hands. She isn't ready to let go yet is my guess.
She is NOT sure. You have called her out and now she is wavering.
OIN, Despite what others are telling you here, relationship talks are NOT always bad or the wrong thing to do. Especially when it is the WS that brings them up. The key is when they do bring them up that you know how to handle one. You did just fine. (finally)
NOW.. Hold the line on what you have told her. When she brings up another talk go back to your new default position..
Which is... "I now realize that you don't want to work on our relationship and nothing I can do will change it. I understand and don't blame you. I agree that maybe we should divorce and it will be for the best."
THAT is your position. She is now for the first time actually thinking the correct things. She is now wondering if it will or will not make her happy. You should have taken this position a long time ago. Stop trying and just let go and be cordial but no reaching out. Stay on this path.
Originally Posted By: TimeHeals
Quote:
IMO you two have done WAY more talking that necessary.
It's as if he thinks if he can find the right magic words, all will be right with the world.
I can relate to that (mis-)conception. I was the exact same way!
Puppy
Oh, I can too! I think most of can relate to it. But how long did you go through it before you realized that your problem was trying to convince your spouse to "feel" a certain way, and their problems were things they would have to work out on their own?
I struggled with the SSM aspects of this dynamic for YEARS (and still do). The affair-busting, however, and the general DBing, I picked up on very quickly once I discovered her adultery.
Puppy
If I tried and stayed in this relationship it would be a long time before I could trust you again.
HUGE INSIGHT to her....
Your answer...."Yes, I know that it would be a long time if you could ever trust me again and I don't blame you.. However, I really don't want to be in a relationship wondering if you are ever going to trust me again and I certainly don't want to be in one like what we have had since I started to try and show you how much you mean to me. I also want someone who WANTS and chooses to be with me."
That is your mindset. Stay on it.
Your answer...."Yes, I know that it would be a long time if you could ever trust me again and I don't blame you.. However, I really don't want to be in a relationship wondering if you are ever going to trust me again and I certainly don't want to be in one like what we have had since I started to try and show you how much you mean to me. I also want someone who WANTS and chooses to be with me."
I agree with this gist of your message, Gucci. I just think we need to be careful with OIN because he is too focused on verbalization and not focused enough on actions.
Sure, he's saying he understands it isn't going to work like it is, and he's agreeing with her on divorce, but he's responding to every text, making special trips to hear what she has to say, and in short... still hanging on her every response.
His words are saying one thing, but how convincing is it when his actions are something else because he basically doesn't believe in what he's doing?
Your answer...."Yes, I know that it would be a long time if you could ever trust me again and I don't blame you.. However, I really don't want to be in a relationship wondering if you are ever going to trust me again and I certainly don't want to be in one like what we have had since I started to try and show you how much you mean to me. I also want someone who WANTS and chooses to be with me."
I agree with this gist of your message, Gucci. I just think we need to be careful with OIN because he is too focused on verbalization and not focused enough on actions.
Sure, he's saying he understands it isn't going to work like it is, and he's agreeing with her on divorce, but he's responding to every text, making special trips to hear what she has to say, and in short... still hanging on her every response.
His words are saying one thing, but how convincing is it when his actions are something else because he basically doesn't believe in what he's doing?
GREAT point, TH. I agree!
Gooch, how to adjust w/ same strategy, but different tactics that are more ACTION-oriented??
Puppy
but he's responding to every text, making special trips to hear what she has to say, and in short... still hanging on her every response.
that is very unattractive. VERY.
needy and clingy guys are a HUGE turnoff.
His words are saying one thing, but how convincing is it when his actions are something else because he basically doesn't believe in what he's doing?
The reality shows that it is convincing enough that she has now written him a letter and is now wavering...
This isn't about him playing hard to get. That isn't going to work. What he needs to accomplish here is to let her see, hear and feel that he has heard what she has been telling him. He should be giving her the "I am giving up" message. I won't try anymore message. He can be cordial, he can answer her questions, he can watch the dog once in a while if he chooses.. etc. etc.... He doesn't need to ignore her. Just stick to the message of "I understand what you have been trying to tell me and I realize now that I should give up trying to win you back. I realize that if you say you can't forgive me and you say that it will never work, then YES you are correct, it won't. I now see that. I agree that divorce is our best option now."
While he is giving her this message consistently, he then keeps doing what he is doing now. Go to visit his friends, family and try to give her time all to herself while he keeps busy. He stays backed off and gradually keeps moving toward the direction that SHE says she wanted. The more he moves in her direction in agreement the more she is going to question if she is doing the righ thing. You have to understand that she hasn't dealt with the reality of what happens if HE now wants out since he has made so much effort to change. Secretly she knows that maybe he really does love her and is serious about changing. Now she will get that chance, except that now it isn't only HER choice, but his also. She will now start to think about all the things that SHE has done while he has tried so hard. She couldn't think those things while he was pursuing so hard. All she could think of was how to get away from him. Now that he has given her that, her thoughts may very well change. Which is what he wanted all along and didn't understand how to accomplish. This accomplishes that.
Remember. It is the threat of irrevocable loss that spurs emotions. She is now faced with the threat that maybe she has driven HIM too far. He needed to do this a long time ago. Now she is faced with the reality he has been dealing with for so long. The reality of "is this what I want and what if it IS over?
AND ABOVE ALL.. STOP SNOOPING. NO more checking up on her in any way shape or form. NONE. This is the message that coincides with the giving up. You now show her you don't care to even check up on her. Let it go.
but he's responding to every text, making special trips to hear what she has to say, and in short... still hanging on her every response.
Big difference in responding to every text than in initiating texts. She is the one initiating them. Nothing in the least wrong with responding to texts from her as long as he isn't pressuring or pursuing her. He doesn't need to respond to every text, but it doesn't hurt him if he does respond as long as he follows the guidelines of pressure and pursuit and "I now see that you don't want me to try anymore. I won't try to win you back"....
THAT is his message to get her to FEEL from him. That means he doesn't ask her to go places with him, he doesn't reach out to HER. If she asks for something he can oblige or not oblige. Just don't do it out of spite or anger or getting back at her. He didn't watch the dog for her so we know that he is moving in the right direction. However,. if he isn't doing anything and she asks him to watch the dog and he so chooses, then it is perfectly fine. Just don't go out of your way if you have other plans. And DO keep on making other plans.
that is very unattractive. VERY.
needy and clingy guys are a HUGE turnoff.
So when it is YOU that contacts or texts your man, you are turned off if he responds?
That is news to me....
However,. if he isn't doing anything and she asks him to watch the dog and he so chooses, then it is perfectly fine. Just don't go out of your way if you have other plans. And DO keep on making other plans.
That's just it, Gooch. I've followed OIN's sitch from the beginning, and there ain't no "keep on" in this. He's NEVER DONE THIS yet.
What TH and I are saying is, if he doesn't actually go HAVE other plans, and keep busy occupying himself, and he responds to her every beckon call, then he can make every speech and grand pronouncement in the book, and his wife will just keep using ACTIONS to suck him back in.
Don't BOTH his words AND his actions need to say "You're right; I agree; I think it's best we both move on"??
Puppy
So when it is YOU that contacts or texts your man, you are turned off if he responds?
That is news to me....
no, when i'm not interested in a guy and he texts me constantly, then it's smothering.
the key is when i'm not interested.
when i am, then yeah i'll respond. but won't respond right away. that shows a bit of desperation.
pdt is right.
here is an example:
For example I would go somewhere and ask W if she would like to join me, if she said no I would say "Why not?" or not go myself. I had to many expectations.
this is a quote from a post oin made a while back when he wanted to take the 'soft' approach to db-ing. which btw, he still has not defined what he meant by 'soft' approach.
why would you need to follow up her response with "why not?" if she says no. and what's even worse .. if she says no, he won't go either!
It took a lot to get to the point where I am and I know I still have a long way to go. I don't not feel within myself that I have entirely dropped the rope as I should but I am working to that point.
I realized that all while my W was holding on to the past 10 years and how 'terrible' and what a waste they were. I too was holding on to the 10 year but only the 'good times' and tried to convince myself it was worth saving. When I thought about our R and how it will never be the same no matter what, either it will be better than what it was or we would be worse, it was then easier to 'let go.' I don't want the R we had for the past 10 years.
And since, either way you look at it, with or without my W, in any R I may have I would had to rebuild just like starting all over again.
====================================
About responding to W's TM. Keep in mind that my W does not have the advantage I do and have access to all your great advice. She only knows her way of doing things. Me not responding to a TM is not me GAL, to her it is her being ignored. AS it is now we are still heading for divorce and I don't want to make it any worse than it has to be.
See, by you saying your W only knows her own way of doing things you are still fearful of her reaction. If she feels ignored, well, there is nothing you can do about that. You cannot make her feel something different.
She wasn't all that concerned about YOU feeling ignored when she was having her affair. In fact, she had little care about your feelings then. Yet somehow you found resources to help you through. If your W is serious eventually she will go looking for resources just like you did. If she doesn't then nothing will ever change.
See, by you saying your W only knows her own way of doing things you are still fearful of her reaction.
I do not feel that way. I am not concerned how my W handles me now agreeing with her on divorce being the answer for the very reasons you stated. I am concerned about her being childish enough to make the divorce process more difficult than it has to be. I know I can't control that but I can maintain civility.
See, by you saying your W only knows her own way of doing things you are still fearful of her reaction.
I do not feel that way. I am not concerned how my W handles me now agreeing with her on divorce being the answer for the very reasons you stated. I am concerned about her being childish enough to make the divorce process more difficult than it has to be. I know I can't control that but I can maintain civility.
Thats pretty wild that she's totally focused on the bad things and you are focused on the good things. So I guess with that being it, and even out of your new interection for the last 16 weeks you are still being picked apart by her.
See, by you saying your W only knows her own way of doing things you are still fearful of her reaction.
I do not feel that way. I am not concerned how my W handles me now agreeing with her on divorce being the answer for the very reasons you stated. I am concerned about her being childish enough to make the divorce process more difficult than it has to be. I know I can't control that but I can maintain civility.
Don't make any assumptions for any of her actions, you don't know if she's going to be childish, adult, mature, civil, angry, etc.
Whatever happens, you can handle it.
Your marriage is a very, very young marriage. Less than one year. That will help you in the D proceedings. You both are employed, you both have your own health insurance and you have no children so spousal maintenance/insurance/child support won't even come to play. The house will be the only issue.
Your W can act however she wants when it comes to the D but NY has very specific parameters on how things need to be done and there is no deviation from the process. If she wants to act childish or angry during the D proceedings let her attny deal with it. As for the actual process it won't have any bearing on you.
When do you plan to see an attny?
Sorry for lack of updates busy with work (crazy out there) and GAL.
Today W told me she wants it to work between us and said she wants to give our marriage another chance.
W agreed to attend MC/relationship building classes ect...
I will try to post our conversation later and what took place over the past few days but until then any advice going from here forward? what to do and what not to do.
Thank you for all your help so far.
1st we need to know what happened and what was said.
We can then help you get a game plan....
OK. I will fast forward to today.
W asked if we could attend a local festival. I agreed that I would go along with her. Over the past few days W had been planning things in the near/distant future and the plans included me.
While driving to our destination today W said to me "I don't want to get into a conversation about it but I want you to know I am considering giving us another chance" I did not know how to respond so I said "OK, we will talk about it when you are ready."
Little later W said it would take a lot to make it work that we cant just agree to stay together and "poof" our R is great. I told W I knew it would take time, effort and commitment to regain each others trust.
W expressed how she wants a more fulfilling R/M and nothing like it was. I agreed that I too did not want a relationship like we had....confused by the easy flowing conversation about R we were having I asked "Where do you stand on our marriage?" and W replied "I want our marriage to work and give us another chance."
I said to W that if we decided to take the long road back to restoring our marriage and making it the best possible that I recommend that we attend MC or M building classes (co-worker took this) and W agreed.
W held my hand as we walked around the event and for that time we felt like a married couple again.
I want to make sure we do this the right way. I want to make sure I stay on course.
I always thought when this day came that W told me she wanted to work on our marriage I would be overwhelmed with joy but I am not because I know this is only the begging.
Congratulations...
I always thought when this day came that W told me she wanted to work on our marriage I would be overwhelmed with joy but I am not because I know this is only the begging.
OIN... THAT statement is evidence that you aren't as ready as you SHOULD have been. You had all these months to learn about how to be a happy man and you were too focused on other things. NOW you need the discipline of being a happy man and you have nothing to fall back on as practice. It is showing evidence that maybe you are the type who is never happy. You weren't happy and drove her away for ten years, then when she wanted out you weren't happy that she wanted out and you kept worrying and acted unhappy while she was distant. NOW you get what you want and you still refuse to be happy. NOTICE A PATTERN HERE?
Your pattern is that you find a way NOT to be happy. That will be the death of your marriage. Women rarely leave a happy man OIN. Rarely. You better quickly bask in the moment and learn to be a happy man. If you don't then your pattern is to find something to be UNHAPPY about. It becomes an addiction to be unhappy. Don't fall for that trap.
Before we can give you wise counsel and advice, it would be a good idea if you fill in the blanks on what actually happened between when you left us a couple of days ago and what happened today. Fill in those blanks. Why did you leave that information out?
Hooray!! You and your wife could get a lot out of the Retrouvaille program because they teach you how to talk to each other and how to treat each other with respect. It is a weekend program to begin with, and then there are weekly follow-up sessions to help you slowly rebuild the marriage. Check the website,
www.helpourmarriage.org for locations and dates. The cost is quite low because it is sponsored by the Catholic Church, but the program is not religious teachings. They teach communication skills.
My husband and I went 3 years ago, and our marriage has been great ever since. We volunteer for Retrouvaille now. In fact, I will spent most of tomorrow making up packets of information for the couples at our summer weekend, next weekend. We can only help 30 couples 4 times a year. But we do help.
Congratulations...
I always thought when this day came that W told me she wanted to work on our marriage I would be overwhelmed with joy but I am not because I know this is only the begging.
OIN... THAT statement is evidence that you aren't as ready as you SHOULD have been. You had all these months to learn about how to be a happy man and you were too focused on other things. NOW you need the discipline of being a happy man and you have nothing to fall back on as practice. It is showing evidence that maybe you are the type who is never happy. You weren't happy and drove her away for ten years, then when she wanted out you weren't happy that she wanted out and you kept worrying and acted unhappy while she was distant. NOW you get what you want and you still refuse to be happy. NOTICE A PATTERN HERE?
Your pattern is that you find a way NOT to be happy. That will be the death of your marriage. Women rarely leave a happy man OIN. Rarely. You better quickly bask in the moment and learn to be a happy man. If you don't then your pattern is to find something to be UNHAPPY about. It becomes an addiction to be unhappy. Don't fall for that trap.
Before we can give you wise counsel and advice, it would be a good idea if you fill in the blanks on what actually happened between when you left us a couple of days ago and what happened today. Fill in those blanks. Why did you leave that information out?
OK, I am happy, honestly I am. BUT I do not expect it to be an easy road from here and because of that I am remain humble.
I left the past few days out because it is a long log and I am heading out the door for work.
But gucci you are right, I was always said to be a miserable person by many people. I don;t feel the way I use too, I feel more confident and have a better(healthier) outlook on life.
Ok. Sounds good. I truly believe you can reconcile for good with your wife and have a great marriage. It sounds like she wants to give it a chance. I will tell you one thing that I know. It shouldn't feel like work for a man to love his wife the way she needs to be loved. You will have much better chance at success if you do it out of the joy of being a mature, confident, emotionally strong, steady, thoughtful man. She will follow right along if you can learn how to lead in the right way.
Please fill us in on the last few days. That gap is too important for us to give you wise counsel without knowing more of what actually transpired. It is sounding like something happened to open up and tell you what she told you today.
Again congratulations. Enjoy it and live in the moment. Be happy in the moment. Stay happy.
And by the way.. Stay humble. That is GOOD that you recognize that.
But gucci you are right, I was always said to be a miserable person by many people. I don;t feel the way I use too, I feel more confident and have a better(healthier) outlook on life.
Remember, It isn't so much how YOU feel, but how SHE perceives you. It would be wise to get a close male friend or two and use them as a sounding board on giving you feedback whether they are viewing you as staying happy or not and telling them you WANT them to point out when you go back to your old ways of seeming unhappy. Some people may SEEM unhappy to others and yet be at total peace inside. Make sure you learn how to put on a happy face as well as a happy attitude... Find male friends that will be direct and honest with you and not tell you what you want to hear. That will help you keep on track with your wife and how she is perceiving you.
OIN,
I'm so happy for you dude!!! There've been SO many days on your thread that I just wanted to give up on you, but then something would say to me "HE'S not giving up; how can YOU??" You've made so many mistakes (lol), but you just kept PLUGGING ALONG, which, you know, is pretty much the key to life (wasn't it Yogi Berra who said "90% of success is just showin' up"???)
Your persistence and steadfast love for your love is admirable.
Please continue to post -- in detail -- so that we can help you. You really only get ONE crack at this reconciliation thing, and you've worked so hard to get here.
Blessings,
Puppy
Past few days leading up to yesterday
Wed:
W went to work, W came home. W maintained civility as she agreed. A few times when she was getting food or a drink she would offer/ask if I wanted any.
It was a beautiful day and thought I would get out the house. I went for a ride on my own. I returned home after an hour or so and then decided I would go get ice cream on this hot day, I told W where I was heading and offered her to go out of courtesy. W joined me. On our way back home I got a txt form a friend asking if I wanted to join them at a cook out, I accepted the invite.
When we got home I told W I was heading out. W was upset and said "if you had something to do you should had just done it rather than asking me to join you" I then said to W "I just received the invitation" and so I went to hang out.
I returned home later in the day, W was in bed getting ready to call it a night.
Thursday:
W called off work. I had nothing planned for the day yet. W and I were having conversation and eventually we just decided to take a ride and took the dog with us. When we returned home W decided she wanted to plant a couple rose bushes that had been sitting around for a few weeks now. W asked if I could assist her and I did.
Friday:
W had went to work and when she returned she asked if I wanted to go tot he movies. I had no plans and had work later that night so I agreed to go. We went and enjoyed ourselves.
Ever since I had the WAS talk with her and left the home (as per her request), this prompted W to write the letter, and form there we both had agreed to be civil and she has kept her word so far and today she said as posted above.
My concern... is there still such thing as pursuing? or is this now where I step up the 180s?
Today's interactions.
I returned home from work this morning and decided to txt W while she was at work. In the past I could remember W being concerned if I made it through a night of work safely. So I simply txt W and said "Home. See you when you get home" W did reply immediately to my surprise with "OK
"
I noticed W had put her wedding ring back on.
W returned home from work, I was just waking up and greeted W with a hello and W said "hi" in return. It was not an 'excited happy to see you' greeting nor did it sound as if she had to say it, just a natural "hi"
W went and got changed then came and laid beside me in bed. I had every intention to giving W a hug (something I did not do too much of in the past). W laid in bed and did not even look in my direction, W then placed her laptop on her lap.
I said to W "I had not seen you in nearly 18 hours, thought I would give you a hug" W looked at me and then I said "I need to know if I am doing too little or too much"
W replied "If you do too much I am not going to believe it is real, I am not an optimistic person. You have to understand how bad yo hurt me in the past and it is not going to be easy for me to just act like everything is OK." I agreed with W that it is not going to be easy and I understand there is a lot of hurt.
W then started to look up more information about a trip she wants us to go on in October, right around the time of our 1 year anniversary to the same place we went to on our honeymoon. We looked a somethings together and had conversation about the possibilities of the trip.
I decided to get up and go get some breakfast and I asked W if she would also like anything. W said she did. I prepared a meal for us. W thanked me and so we sat and spoke about non-R things.
From what I have gathered W has a lot of doubt because of the past but has at least committed to giving us another chance.
W has not initiated any R talks and told me she does not like to talk about it.
I am looking for some advice, I don't want to ruin this opportunity.
I am really pleased for you!
I think the best advice right now is to get to IC and joint C'ing ASAP. Make the appts tomorrow. I do not feel without a 3rd party you and your W will be able to do this on your own.
KEEP GAL'ig! Do not stop that! You don't have to ask your W everywhere nor do you have to accept every invite she offers you.
In your mind (or somewhere private) start making a list of what you need to work on, what you would like your W to work on and what a good marriage looks like to you. IMO "better communication" is simply way too vague.
All the very best wishes!
I returned home from work this morning and decided to txt W while she was at work. In the past I could remember W being concerned if I made it through a night of work safely. So I simply txt W and said "Home. See you when you get home" W did reply immediately to my surprise with "OK "
NO.. NO..NO...
Don't be texting your wife while she is at work UNLESS she texts you something first. She just tells you yesterday she wants to work things out and you go right into pursuit mode...
Work is work. When people are at work they are being paid to work, not being paid to text back and forth with friends, family and lovers.
LET her lead the texting from work. I know you don't think it was pursuit, but you are going to drive yourself AND her nuts if you can't even leave her completely alone while at work. Stop doing that.
Do you realize that sometimes even GOOD relationships need breathing space? When she is at work it is a great time for some breathing space for BOTH of you. Let HER lead the texting from her work.
I said to W "I had not seen you in nearly 18 hours, thought I would give you a hug" W looked at me and then I said "I need to know if I am doing too little or too much"
NO NO NO... You are the MAN in the relationship. Not the woman..
You let the WOMAN tell you that you haven't seen each other in 18 hours or whatever amount of time you are apart. YOUR responsibility is to come home and be in a GOOD mood. "HI honey" how was your day'? THEN shut up and listen HAPPILY... You let HER ask you about your day. If she doesn't ask, then you keep it to yourself or use your day to keep the conversation going to keep bringing her out. You are the man. You are LEADING. You lead by being happy and mature and asking about her. Don't go overboard. Just set a pattern. When she comes in the door, say hi happily and always be in the middle of doing something. THEN when she starts talking about her day, THAT is when you stop what you are doing and just listen.
thought I would give you a hug" W looked at me and then I said "I need to know if I am doing too little or too much"
NO NO NO... You NEVER do things like this when romancing a woman or trying to win one back. One day after you have her coming back toward you, you go right back into "I will keep trying to win you back mode".... No more asking.
For right now.. No hugs. We can discuss giving a hug later. But NOT one day after she comes back toward you. Weak weak weak... Never ask a woman if you are doing too little or too much. Most women want you to KNOW without asking. SO, you better quickly learn how to read her. It isn't that hard if you stop trying so hard and just be real. Learn to read her and you will know what to do and when to do it. Become an expert in your wife and how to read her.
agreed with W that it is not going to be easy and I understand there is a lot of hurt.
This was good. That is the way you need to handle this for now. However, REMEMBER.. The reason you ended up having to agree with that statement is because you went and ask for too much too soon with the "texting, the asking for a hug, and then telling her to let you know if you are doing too much or too little".. You fell into that trap by yourself. The agreement with not being easy could have been avoided by just leaving her alone at work for the whole day and when she came home happily saying hi and then letting things happen on their own.
I decided to get up and go get some breakfast and I asked W if she would also like anything. W said she did. I prepared a meal for us. W thanked me and so we sat and spoke about non-R things.
This was GOOD. It is OK NOW to do these things for her now that she has said she wants to work it out. You have been the cook for awhile so this will be ok to do. It is now ok to ask her to do things with you. The reason is that she TOLD you she wants to work it out. Now you can slowly just be a good man.
From what I have gathered W has a lot of doubt because of the past but has at least committed to giving us another chance.
DUH?.. Come on OIN.. That is exactly what she has told you and it is how she feels. Is this a surprise? The difference between now and the last few months is that she came to YOU and she TOLD you she wants to work this out. NOW you can do many of the things that were not working for you before. Why? Because she told you she WANTED to try. Big differece now. Just don't go overboard and come on too strong.Coming on strong scares almost ALL women, not only your wife. Just be consistent and happy and give her some space. While she is at work is a great time to give her space.
I just wanted to remind you that my situation is unique, have you not learned that by now? (j/k).
Gucci,
When our sitch first started my W gave me the list of things she always wanted from me in our relationship. This is before I discovered DR book and way before I found this forum. At that time I wrote this list of things down and made a promise to my W that I would make the changes and start doing those things. For the first month I did all these things and it became overwhelming to my W and her response was always "I just don't believe this is real, why now when I always wanted these things from you."
Once I discovered the DR book I stopped all these purusing things. Then once I came across this forum I learned many of the things I did were still considered pursuing.
This is why I am grateful to have you all here. I know I was stubborn for sometime and did not take your advice.
I sincerely do not want to mess this up so I will follow any advice given (within reason).
i will continue to provide detailed reports of our daily interactions.
What things right now are my DEFINITE Do's and Dont's?
Monday:
I returned home from a long night of work. W was sleeping. W woke up as I walked in the room. W told me how she had a terrible night sleep and her head is STILL hurting. I went to bed and W went downstairs. A few min later W comes back up lays in bed, has a little snack and looks over to me and ask if I would like any, I told her "NO, but thank you."
Finding it hard to fall to sleep W and I began to talk a little bit. W told me about research she had done over night on hotels ect.. for the trip she had been planning for the fall. Now that I know that the trip includes me I am starting to get excited. In the past I never really got involved with our trip planning and just left it up to her. Now I am expressing excitement and participating in the planning process. The trip is a being planned for the same week we went on our honey moon last year at the same destination...honeymoon part two? (the right way)
I eventually feel to sleep as did my W. Our dog was being a pain so I had a hard time getting consistent sleep. W eventually woke up after an hour or so and turned the TV on (lol) I gave up on trying to sleep and got up myself.
W and I again carried on convo about the trip and other non-R topics. W and I took a trip to the bookstore. W wanted to get a guide for our vacation. I made my way over to the R/M books and told W that I wanted to purchase a book that was recommended by a co-worker and read it together. W said "get it" but did not say if she would participate in reading it.
W wanted to stop a store to get some new under garments. W and I picked out a few things and then headed on back home.
During our time out and about, I did not engage in any R talk. There were few times where I did place hand on W's leg while driving, place hand on small of her back while standing in store and hold her hand while walking. W did not reject any.
At home, I prepared for a night of work and W was getting situated with organizing things around the house that we just purchased.
The day W had said she wanted to work on our M or give it another try she agreed to read M help/improving books but has yet to do/participate in any of it. W said that today we could go through the first chapter of a book but it did not happen. I mentioned this to W briefly and she really did not give a response...
There were a few times where W seemed to had got 'short' with me but she said it was due to her headache and the heat and nothing was meant by it.
We carried on civilly. I was leaving for work and as I had in the past (before our sitch) would kiss W on forehead before I left and say goodnight. W said goodnight to me. Something that she had not reciprocated in several months. As I walked out the bedroom W said "Be careful." Something I have not heard her say to me before I left for work in 8 months or so now.
I know I may have gone a little overboard with the kiss on the forehead but I remember not too long ago W being on the internet and she was saving "love quotes." In one of the quotes it was said that someone who truly loves you would kiss you on the forehead...something I use to ALWAYS do before our sicth as well, so I did it and she was not objective toward it.
Going back to my previous post... Mandatory DO's and DON'Ts?
Monday:
I returned home from a long night of work. W was sleeping. W woke up as I walked in the room. W told me how she had a terrible night sleep and her head is STILL hurting. I went to bed and W went downstairs. A few min later W comes back up lays in bed, has a little snack and looks over to me and ask if I would like any, I told her "NO, but thank you."
Finding it hard to fall to sleep W and I began to talk a little bit. W told me about research she had done over night on hotels ect.. for the trip she had been planning for the fall. Now that I know that the trip includes me I am starting to get excited. In the past I never really got involved with our trip planning and just left it up to her. Now I am expressing excitement and participating in the planning process. The trip is a being planned for the same week we went on our honey moon last year at the same destination...honeymoon part two? (the right way)
I eventually feel to sleep as did my W. Our dog was being a pain so I had a hard time getting consistent sleep. W eventually woke up after an hour or so and turned the TV on (lol) I gave up on trying to sleep and got up myself.
W and I again carried on convo about the trip and other non-R topics. W and I took a trip to the bookstore. W wanted to get a guide for our vacation. I made my way over to the R/M books and told W that I wanted to purchase a book that was recommended by a co-worker and read it together. W said "get it" but did not say if she would participate in reading it.
W wanted to stop a store to get some new under garments. W and I picked out a
Monday:
I returned home from a long night of work. W was sleeping. W woke up as I walked in the room. W told me how she had a terrible night sleep and her head is STILL hurting. I went to bed and W went downstairs. A few min later W comes back up lays in bed, has a little snack and looks over to me and ask if I would like any, I told her "NO, but thank you."
Finding it hard to fall to sleep W and I began to talk a little bit. W told me about research she had done over night on hotels ect.. for the trip she had been planning for the fall. Now that I know that the trip includes me I am starting to get excited. In the past I never really got involved with our trip planning and just left it up to her. Now I am expressing excitement and participating in the planning process. The trip is a being planned for the same week we went on our honey moon last year at the same destination...honeymoon part two? (the right way)
I eventually feel to sleep as did my W. Our dog was being a pain so I had a hard time getting consistent sleep. W eventually woke up after an hour or so and turned the TV on (lol) I gave up on trying to sleep and got up myself.
W and I again carried on convo about the trip and other non-R topics. W and I took a trip to the bookstore. W wanted to get a guide for our vacation. I made my way over to the R/M books and told W that I wanted to purchase a book that was recommended by a co-worker and read it together. W said "get it" but did not say if she would participate in reading it.
W wanted to stop a store to get some new under garments. W and I picked out a few things and then headed on back home.
During our time out and about, I did not engage in any R talk. There were few times where I did place hand on W's leg while driving, place hand on small of her back while standing in store and hold her hand while walking. W did not reject any.
At home, I prepared for a night of work and W was getting situated with organizing things around the house that we just purchased.
The day W had said she wanted to work on our M or give it another try she agreed to read M help/improving books but has yet to do/participate in any of it. W said that today we could go through the first chapter of a book but it did not happen. I mentioned this to W briefly and she really did not give a response...
There were a few times where W seemed to had got 'short' with me but she said it was due to her headache and the heat and nothing was meant by it.
We carried on civilly. I was leaving for work and as I had in the past (before our sitch) would kiss W on forehead before I left and say goodnight. W said goodnight to me. Something that she had not reciprocated in several months. As I walked out the bedroom W said "Be careful." Something I have not heard her say to me before I left for work in 8 months or so now.
I know I may have gone a little overboard with the kiss on the forehead but I remember not too long ago W being on the internet and she was saving "love quotes." In one of the quotes it was said that someone who truly loves you would kiss you on the forehead...something I use to ALWAYS do before our sicth as well, so I did it and she was not objective toward it.
Going back to my previous post... Mandatory DO's and DON'Ts?
Gucci,I have read the book, along time ago. I am total pursuit mode when my wife calls are texts. I have been texting her back about 10 or 11 times. Wrong, wrong I know. Can you list the do's and dont's for us. My name is par4me. I should not love my wife but I do. It is alot of time I am asking you for but I have read some of your posts and respect what you say. I wished you would quote on my stuff alittle more. I don't know, I just wished that you would help me a little. I delated my ex's cell number out of my phone so I wouldn't be tempted to call or text but man I have done everything wrong much like this guy. I get positive response by leaving her alone and then go into total persuit and promises when she does call and tells me she misses me. I am to stupid to do this right and I am going to lose her because of it but if you would list some things I would tape it up on my computer and maybe act a little sanier. Thanks, Jeff
sorry for the triple post, connection acting up and continued to refresh page....
During our time out and about, I did not engage in any R talk. There were few times where I did place hand on W's leg while driving, place hand on small of her back while standing in store and hold her hand while walking. W did not reject any.
Good job.. Remember.. Don't ASK.. Just do...
Just keep it simple.. Those things are fine if she isn't rejecting you. Just play it by ear.. Good job in holding her hand while walking...
I think you did great... The only thing I would caution you about is the relationship book and the counseling.. Don't be so caught up in healing this relationship that you PUSH her on those issues.. YOU just keep doing what you are doing now. If you push this counseling and relationship book issue too fast and too far, it could backfire...
You aleady forgot what I warned you about a couple of days ago didn't you ?
Stop this obsessive worrying and live in the moment and be a HAPPY man.. Just be silent and let your actions do the talking. Quiet confidence. Back off on the counseling and books. What difference does it make whether you go to counseling or read a book together if you are moving forward without it? NONE ... Sometiems too much counseling and trying to work on the relatonship backfires. It brings up the past. Just live in the moment. Let HER bring up the counseling and stuff when she is ready. If she doesn't WHO CARES as long as the relationship is moving ahead.. And YOUR'S IS MOVING FORWARD NICELY.. Enjoy it and enjoy planning the vacation together and then go have a great vacation with her.
All in all, you are NOW on the right track. Just keep plugging forward. Please try to be happy and enjoy it.
It is alot of time I am asking you for but I have read some of your posts and respect what you say. I wished you would quote on my stuff alittle more. I don't know, I just wished that you would help me a little
Par,
I would love to help you. However, you told us on your thread HOW you wanted us to post to you. I believe you told us what you didn't want to hear. I am not the type to let the one asking for advice tell me how or what advice to give them. That is like letting the patient tell the Doctor how to heal him and to tell the Doctor what medicine to prescribe and if the Doctor doesn't agree with what the patient has told the Doctor to do, then the Doctor must shut up...
Do you understand my position? I would be glad to help you, but I may not tell you what you want to hear, but what you need to hear and what you need to do to give you the best possible chance to reconcile. I may even tell you things that would sound to you like I am telling you that it will never work and to just give up. That is not what I am on here for. If I tell you to act like you are giving up, it is actually because it is your best chance to get her back. Understand that?
If you still want my advice then let me know. I just wanted to clarify my own stance.
Mandatory DO's and DON'Ts?
DO try to lighten up when around her...
DO try to find things to laugh about..
Do use your dog as a common interest and DO use the dog as a way to communicate and to have something to talk about....
DON'T keep hinting and pushing counseling and such....(that is too feminine and isn't attractive and will come across subconsciously to her as weak)
DO let her lead on that issue. If she chooses not to bring it up, then so be it. You are in great shape because of what you have learned the past few months.
DON'T snoop anymore... In your case snooping now would backfire in a big way. I wouldn't chance it at this point.
Remember, she may still feel that you always watch over her and snoop. Surprise her and surprise yourself.
Do use your dog as a common interest and DO use the dog as a way to communicate and to have something to talk about....
Chestnut Ridge Park.
If you drive past the enterance and continue down Rt 277, quickly after the bend there is a road on your right.
Turn down Seufert road; drive no more than a football field. Park on the road. There use to be a chained off enterance, and a hiking trail leading off from it. It will lead to Eternal Flame Falls. Its not hard to find. The trail should lead right to it. If its not lit, you can smell the gas and find the natural gas leak and light it without blowing yourself and your woman up.
Its a shady area not really picnicy, but if you let your dog run down stream abit, there's a hill thats been cleared for a gas line or power line, I can't remember, but you can hike up it and get back into the more secluded part of the park.
Don't forget the stuffed pepper pizza on the way back home. LOL.
Good luck.
Do use your dog as a common interest and DO use the dog as a way to communicate and to have something to talk about....
Chestnut Ridge Park.
If you drive past the enterance and continue down Rt 277, quickly after the bend there is a road on your right.
Turn down Seufert road; drive no more than a football field. Park on the road. There use to be a chained off enterance, and a hiking trail leading off from it. It will lead to Eternal Flame Falls. Its not hard to find. The trail should lead right to it. If its not lit, you can smell the gas and find the natural gas leak and light it without blowing yourself and your woman up.
Its a shady area not really picnicy, but if you let your dog run down stream abit, there's a hill thats been cleared for a gas line or power line, I can't remember, but you can hike up it and get back into the more secluded part of the park.
Don't forget the stuffed pepper pizza on the way back home. LOL.
Good luck.
lol, nice. You from this area?
Tuesday:
Returned home from very long night of work, very tired. W had off work so she was home and she was sleeping. I laid in bed W really paid me no attention when I go home so I just dozed off and went to sleep myself. I woke up later in the afternoon.
W was watching TV then started to tell me all that she did the night before. I engaged W in the conversation to show her I was listening and interested. I then told W how work went (she did not ask).
I was explaining to W how I heard a review about a movie and I would like to see it. W said she remembering seeing the trailer for the same movie and thought it was good herself. W said she wanted to see it and suggested we rent it.
W and I agreed not to sit around the house. I had to make run to the tax place, I been putting it off. W said "I'll get ready when you leave and when you come back we'll leave" I agreed with W that it "sounds like a plan" W said "be careful" before I left.
I returned and W was ready to go and so we went. W wanted to stop by the mall to pick up a few thing she has been meaning to get. W and I held hands during our walk in the mall.
At one point we stopped in a novelty T Shirt store. In there W spotted a infant size shirt that read "I 'heart' Polish" (I am polish BTW). W had such a big smile on her face when she seen it. W asked "Should I get it?" I was caught of guard by that and was unsure how to respond so I said "That is up to you" with a smile on my face. W said "Well who knows if they will still have it here when we have kids" Once again did not expect to hear that...W decided to get it. We continued to walk around the mall and eventually left.
We make it back home W started to unpack what she had purchased and pulled out the shirt and was smiling...so I decided to ask "What made you buy the shirt" and W replied "You know I want to have children" in a humbling voice. I then replied "Yes I do know that and I do as well" W then said "I know we need to work on our marriage first before we get to that point. W and I were in agreement that we would work on our marriage and develop a strong, healthy loving marriage so we do not ever end up like we were in the past and to the point we had come to in the past 7 months.
Following that W and I watch a little TV, W rest her head on me and at another point we held hands watching TV. Then W started to play with our dog and got me involved.
There came a point were W seemed a little annoyed and upset but by what I am not sure. Shortly after a friend asked if I wanted to come hang out for a little bit. Thinking to myself "I am happy that we are making progress but I don't want to smother W and I still want to GAL and allow W to miss me sometimes" so I decided to hang out.
I let W know and she got upset but she would not say why, I decided to still go. I returned home and W was in bed sleeping, W woke up as I walked in the room and asked if I could grab her something from downstairs and so I did...W then went to bed.
I have a question for WAW and those who have reconciled.
Is it normal for WAS to still be withdrawn (maybe not the word I am looking for) even after the WAS agrees to work on the marriage?
What I mean is, for example, over the past week I have initiated contact with W here and there, hugs, holding hands, and some touching. All of which has not been rejected (W has yet to initiate any contact). Just yesterday W and I hugged before she left for work and she kissed me on my cheek but this morning it felt like W did not want to hug at all and she gave me what I would call a pity hug and that was it. It is normal for WAS who have agree to work on the marriage to do these sort of things?
Also how long did it take or do you project it will take for W to start meeting emotional needs? When do you think it is OK to talk to W about my emotional needs, or at all?
I am doing my best to live in the moment. I have held back on many things so I do not pressure/pursue W. I don't want to blow this opportunity by expecting too much too soon and want to get insight from those who have come this far....
When do you think it is OK to talk to W about my emotional needs, or at all?
after she removes both valve covers and turns the engine to top dead center
Most of your problems could be put behind you with around 30 days of sex every night. You'd clear the physical and emotional bond problems, and YOU would be the last thing on her mind - not OM.
Most of your problems could be put behind you with around 30 days of sex every night.
sounds like a recipe for a yeast infection
There usually is a pullback in behavior. They'll be "testing" the water so to speak. They don't know if they made the right decision or not. Take it slow and encourage her rather than go full force and expect her to fall into your arms overnight.
Keep the positive changes going. Have you thought about going to a MC together? You need someone to show both of you how to communicate better with each other or else you'll find yourself back her in no time.
When do you think it is OK to talk to W about my emotional needs, or at all?
after she removes both valve covers and turns the engine to top dead center
I don't get it, sorry. I would like to say that we went to eternal flame falls today and we had a great time. The bad part about it all, it was spur of the moment W had no clue and therefore she was not dressed for the occasion.
Bond,
W and I spoke about MC and she agreed, since that day she had not brought it back up but I had. I suggested many times for us to seek some sort of MC and she agreed but nothing beyond that. It was then suggested in this thread that I lay off the MC talk for now.
Today we had a pretty good day. Somehow we got into a R talk. W said she is trying to figure out if I really am the person I portrayed over the past 7 months. W also said many things she said to me over the past several months was to protect herself...from what I don't know.
I am using our trip as a way to reconnect with her. At first I did not agree with the trip (never told her) due to our current financial situation but she is really set on going and when I brought up financial concerns she said that it'll all work out...
In my experience, if you drop talking about a plan to improve the marriage, such as going to a MC or going to a Retrouvaille weekend (and there are a lot of summer weekends out there this month and next), then nothing happens. To get change, you have to make change. And the opposite is also true, if nothing changes, then everything stays the same. And if everything stays the same, then this time period of goodwill is likely to wear off and you go back to where you were before. Some say that a happy marriage is falling in love with the same person over and over again. That is because the "in love" feeling does not just last.
You are no longer in the affair stage of this relationship, you are now in the piecing phase. You don't act the same in piecing as you do in trying to end an affair. You do have to take steps to heal the marriage, more than just day-to-day getting along. Because things will happen and you will lapse into old patterns. You need to actively change the patterns in a determined way, preferably led by someone who has experience doing this successfully.
Most of your problems could be put behind you with around 30 days of sex every night.
sounds like a recipe for a yeast infection
Yeast infection? I don't get it
OIN,
You are one interesting character...
When we were telling you to let her go, you would keep pointing out to us how far you had come and all the good you were seeing.
Now that you have a chance with her, it looks like you are trying to find a way to be negative and gloom and doom.
You really need to focus on being a happy man. I know you want some type of time limit on when or if she will come around, but you know as well as I do that there is no way anybody can know that.
You have to stop taking her temperature so much.
Focus on becoming happy. You have a habit of finding something to worry about.
If I tell you to tell her that it isn't working for you, I would guess that you would come back and tell me that things are better and you are now hugging, holding hands and kissing her goodbye in the morning....
Life is good. You are reconciling. Stay in the moment. Just keep plugging and being consistent.
When do you think it is OK to talk to W about my emotional needs, or at all?
after she removes both valve covers and turns the engine to top dead center
I don't get it, sorry. I would like to say that we went to eternal flame falls today and we had a great time. The bad part about it all, it was spur of the moment W had no clue and therefore she was not dressed for the occasion.
I'm a vague one aren't I? Guess you never had one of those air-cooled Volkswagens where you had to adjust the valves every month. I might as well just say it then. Chicks dig motorheads not EMO boys talking about how they are unloved and alone their dark bedroom.
You are not going to come off as a "pillar" of emotional strength and confidance if you are talking about your emotional needs a week after she unlocks the bedroom door and starts talking to you again. You were not the one having the affair, and sneaking around and lying. You should not be the one taking "the temperature of the relationship" and asking for hugs and exhibiting fear of abandonment. Aren't you suppose to be the one leading and making her feel secure, protected, and important?
Me, Me, Me, feed my needs.
Emotional maturity instead of emotional neediness! You can connect with your woman without verbally expressing your dependence. She's not a chicken salad sandwich; she can read you through your actions and your leadership.
In my world, if I was to start talking about a need for admiration and affection and hand holding, my wife would take one look at me and say, "why don't you watch 'Bethenny Getting Married' she'll teach you a little about confidence and independence."
Anyhow, Since its Friday, I got a another great "day in the live of Stephen" story about Gas Light Falls.
When I was a boy, I use to hike those woods day in and night. I had this big old friendly husky. If she could talk she probably would have only said "pet me, pet me, come on, pet me, pet me."
This was back in the day before seat belt and leash laws. So, we're hiking through the woods, and ol' snoopy books up ahead. She must have seen other people and was trying to get some attention. When I catch up with her, she's inside this pile of blown over of trees and brush begging for pets from 2 old guys. 2 real old guys, George Burns' type. 1 old guy is in his underwear with a camera on a tripod. The other is naked in some Bacchus pose on a blanket, with grapes and wine and the blown over trees in the background. And there is my dog snoopy smelling this old guys butt. Horrid memory but the funniest thing I ever saw in all my life.
Emotional maturity instead of emotional neediness! You can connect with your woman without verbally expressing your dependence. She's not a chicken salad sandwich; she can read you through your actions and your leadership.
In my world, if I was to start talking about a need for admiration and affection and hand holding, my wife would take one look at me and say, "why don't you watch 'Bethenny Getting Married' she'll teach you a little about confidence and independence."
Steve is right on the money OIN.. You ARE coming across as becoming the feminine one in the relationship and her the masculine one.. ROLE REVERSAL.. That is NOT good....
Anyhow, Since its Friday, I got a another great "day in the live of Stephen" story about Gas Light Falls.
When I was a boy, I use to hike those woods day in and night. I had this big old friendly husky. If she could talk she probably would have only said "pet me, pet me, come on, pet me, pet me."
This was back in the day before seat belt and leash laws. So, we're hiking through the woods, and ol' snoopy books up ahead. She must have seen other people and was trying to get some attention. When I catch up with her, she's inside this pile of blown over of trees and brush begging for pets from 2 old guys. 2 real old guys, George Burns' type. 1 old guy is in his underwear with a camera on a tripod. The other is naked in some Bacchus pose on a blanket, with grapes and wine and the blown over trees in the background. And there is my dog snoopy smelling this old guys butt. Horrid memory but the funniest thing I ever saw in all my life.
Steve!! You are one of the reasons I logon everyday.
Emotional maturity instead of emotional neediness! You can connect with your woman without verbally expressing your dependence. She's not a chicken salad sandwich; she can read you through your actions and your leadership.
In my world, if I was to start talking about a need for admiration and affection and hand holding, my wife would take one look at me and say, "why don't you watch 'Bethenny Getting Married' she'll teach you a little about confidence and independence."
Steve is right on the money OIN.. You ARE coming across as becoming the feminine one in the relationship and her the masculine one.. ROLE REVERSAL.. That is NOT good....
We know he's masculine too! Yep, these affairs and attempting to fix them are a classroom on psychology and dymanics of power in relationships.
This role reversal happens all the time!
Another one, if a females "personal boundary" space kicks you out of "masculine space", and she's actively enforcing this with her games, tests, etc... It will do the same thing.
They don't have to physical cheat on us to cheat us.
Most of your problems could be put behind you with around 30 days of sex every night.
sounds like a recipe for a yeast infection
What are you saying, someone else is "in there"?
In my experience, if you drop talking about a plan to improve the marriage, such as going to a MC or going to a Retrouvaille weekend (and there are a lot of summer weekends out there this month and next), then nothing happens. To get change, you have to make change. And the opposite is also true, if nothing changes, then everything stays the same. And if everything stays the same, then this time period of goodwill is likely to wear off and you go back to where you were before. Some say that a happy marriage is falling in love with the same person over and over again. That is because the "in love" feeling does not just last.
You are no longer in the affair stage of this relationship, you are now in the piecing phase. You don't act the same in piecing as you do in trying to end an affair. You do have to take steps to heal the marriage, more than just day-to-day getting along. Because things will happen and you will lapse into old patterns. You need to actively change the patterns in a determined way, preferably led by someone who has experience doing this successfully.
I learned in my last situation, the "in love" feeling can last. You mess it up. You mess it up when you get too much into yourself, it can be you or the relationship partner.
Not a hijax...just a big "You Guys Are SO Right"!
I just wanted to say that all the advice that I've seen on these forums have been a kick in the ass for me.
Last night, I think I finally decided to stop being kicked! Went and stood in front of the mirror for like an hour and seriously looked at myself, NOT the relationship. Pretty much told myself off. I DID NOT LIKE WHAT I WAS LOOKING AT! I've somehow became a slave to my desires and feelings, let myself go, and really have just become a co-dependant jackass with no self control.
This is not the me that my Wife fell in love with or what any of my previous girlfriends were attracted too. Sad to say but I have become the Feminine one and have strangled any resemblence of being a man. I'm done!
I'm going to improve ME for ME only and take this whole situation as a learning experience. If it's meant for my Wife and I to re-unite in the future, it'll happen, but if it doesn't at least I will be a man again.
Not a hijax...just a big "You Guys Are SO Right"!
I just wanted to say that all the advice that I've seen on these forums have been a kick in the ass for me.
Last night, I think I finally decided to stop being kicked! Went and stood in front of the mirror for like an hour and seriously looked at myself, NOT the relationship. Pretty much told myself off. I DID NOT LIKE WHAT I WAS LOOKING AT! I've somehow became a slave to my desires and feelings, let myself go, and really have just become a co-dependant jackass with no self control.
This is not the me that my Wife fell in love with or what any of my previous girlfriends were attracted too. Sad to say but I have become the Feminine one and have strangled any resemblence of being a man. I'm done!
I'm going to improve ME for ME only and take this whole situation as a learning experience. If it's meant for my Wife and I to re-unite in the future, it'll happen, but if it doesn't at least I will be a man again.
Sometimes we have to do some "bad" things to get it back. Look at the 'robx' and 'gucci' postings for the method to the madness. The 'QuickSilver264' thread shows a man who was a "stud", who got demasculated and she's leaving him like he's a bad dream. Reading his words is inspiring, because I know he's a stud.
Quick little update...
W and I had intercourse for the first time in 7 months yesterday (Friday). During this time W had said ILY... since then W has not said it.
After W had told me how she had (loved me) throughout our sitch and she had said some terrible things to protect herself. W then made a comparison of the past 7 months to the past 10 years.
I wanted to speak up about some things that were said that I felt were entirely out of line and also the EA but I did not, I just let it go.
Lucky ba$tard.
(With apologies to Hairdog),
Puppy
OIN, how WONDERFUL!!
Do not worry about the ILYs....they will come. She is still protecting her heart.
Just let her talk....do not smother her....she is trying to come to terms with sitch in her own head.
If you feel you have to let off 'steam' about what you think she 'should have' said, come here.
WAY TO GO BUDDY!!!
Enjoy the week-end!
gg~
During this time W had said ILY... since then W has not said it.
Are you saying she said she loved you Friday when having intercourse? Do you you mean she hasn't said I love you since then?
I wanted to speak up about some things that were said that I felt were entirely out of line and also the EA but I did not, I just let it go.
Again. Please clarify. What things were said that you wanted to speak up about?
OIN, if you want us to help you need to be a bit more specific.
You make statements that are vague and leave me having to pull things out of you. Letting things go like you say you did may or may not have been the correct way to go about this. Don't believe for one second that a person trying to save their relationship has to let things go when the other spouse is ripping you to shreds again and again. That is why you need to be more specific to us.
Ok. I believe you may be slowly missing out on a great opportunity here and if you don't get a grasp on some of the things that could be helping you even more, then you are never going to be totally happy..
LEARN TO BE A HAPPY MAN..
Your wife is EXCITED and looking forward to your vacation. THAT is an opportunity for you to connect with her deeper emotionally. Instead of focusing on how you can do that, you are still focused on "poor poor me, poor me this and poor me that" That attitude isto not helping you.
You need to get EXCITED about the vacation TOO... Women LOVE something to look forward to. Get yourself lost in planning this vacation along with her. Now, the way to do that is to show her you are excited about something that YOU are wanting to do or a place YOU want to visit while gone on your vacation with her. Example: "Honey, Let's go to the sporting goods store this weekend because I WANT to buy some snorkeling equipment. There is supposed to be a really good snorkeling area there and I want to do that one day while we are there."
You may very well then find her sharing something that SHE would also like to do. She may mention, "hey I want to go to the store and look at bikini's after we go to the sporting goods store" You then say.."Ok sounds good. I want to get a new pair of swim trunks myself."... etc. etc
Get into your OWN excitement about the vacation and SHARRE that excitement with her. It is give and take. Then when you go to the sporting goods store TOGETHER... get out of the car and grab her hand (don't ask, just take it) and walk in together hand in hand HAPPILY..
You HAVE GOT TO show her that you have other passions and interests other than her. Get passionate about going away on vacation. My wife loves it that I love to plan ahead and get so excited about going on vacation with her. I let her give me ideas of what she wants to do and things she wants to explore or whatever, and I do the same. I say to her,"honey, I read there is a really neat town about an hour away from where we are staying that has a lot of antique shops that are all within walking distance. I think we should take a day and rent a car and go explore that town."
The way you talk about your wife it sounds to me that she would say.."ok" without much emotion behind it. So be it. She doesn't have to love every love or interest you have and vice versa...
I told you before. Take advantage of things SHE likes to do and thins she enjoys. She is excited about this vacation. USE it to your advantage. Stop being so obsessed about her reactions and start obsessing about this fantastic wonderful vacation that YOU can't wait to go on. Let that rub off on her...
During this time W had said ILY... since then W has not said it.
Is this a major concern for you? How many times would you have liked her to have said it?
Quote:
During this time W had said ILY... since then W has not said it.
Are you saying she said she loved you Friday when having intercourse? Do you you mean she hasn't said I love you since then?
Yes everything happened on Friday.
Yes, during our intimate moment W said "ILY" a few times. During one of those times I said it in return.
Now here is the thing. W is so set on starting a family and I am set on building a healthy loving R/M. I cannot imagine bringing a child into a situation or state our marriage is currently in.
W speaks about how we are going to "take the steps we need to take" but yet her actions do not back up her words. I know it will take time and I know I should live in the moment but I feel rushed and told W this.
So after our intimate moment I asked W "how do you feel about me" W told me "ILY, I always have." I then told W my concerns about my concerns of starting a family before we even get the chance to work on us. W said that we would take the steps we need to take and if the family happens, then we will take it as it comes.
I had to go to work, running late actually so I got ready. I was leaving for work, W said "be careful" and I responded "I will and if you need anything just call or txt." W said "OK"
Later in the night W called me, we spoke for a few minutes. W told me how she was feeling (physically). I told W how my night was going so far and then we ended the call with an exchange of "goodnight and ILY" The ILY slipped out and W did say it in return.
In the morning when W was leaving for work (I am still at work 3am). W called me, W told me about our dog misbehaving during the night. I asked W what had she packed for lunch and she told me. After that brief conversation W and I ended the call with W me saying to W "careful on your drive in to work" (W said someone had cut her off while we were talking which prompted me to say that). We exchanged "Bye" and nothing more...end of call.
W gets to work then she txt how she was pulled over on the way into work...
======
Sorry for the lack of commentary I honestly don't remember everything that was said and when it was said. I was caught up in the moment and then rushed off to work. When I returned home from work I made the above post.
As for being happy around the W, I am. I tell W how excited I am about the trip. I talk to W about it everyday.
We BOTH plan everything we do way ahead of time. That is something we have in common. Where we differentiate is W is optimistic and I become pessimistic. For example; W wants to go on this trip and is planning out everything, I want to go on this trip and well and help plan but I also wonder "where are we getting the money." W wants to have children and as do I but I want to take parenting classes (so does W) and work on R first, W just says "It'll all be OK" I can't see the "OK" in having children in a struggling marriage while planning an expensive trip...how about we plan the trip work out our finances, go on the trip and have a great time then consider where we go from there...
During this time W had said ILY... since then W has not said it.
Is this a major concern for you? How many times would you have liked her to have said it?
No. I just don't believe it I guess. I use to see it in her eyes when she said it in the past. This was a very withdrawn ILY during an intimate moment...
OIN,
Things are moving very nicely in your direction. Very nicely.
One thing,
You NEED to change your view on having a baby. This is typical of you. Your wife is telling you what she wants and then you typically find a negative in it. It is obvious why she is where she is at emotionally with things like this that you STILL do. You are still insisting on getting YOUR way. That is selfish. Why not just get excited about having children together? Why do you always want to ruin her dreams with finding the negative in it? Stop doing that. Your wife is right. If it happens then you will deal with it at that time. OIN, there are NO GUARANTEES in life. Stop this negative outlook when she says something good. If she says black your first reaction is to say "well I am not so sure about black. Learn to enjoy what SHE is dreaming about. My god man, she is talking about having YOUR baby and you are negative nellie. STop that. You are pushing this where, when she says it isn't working that she is going to say "well I wanted a baby and you never did and I am not waiting around for a man who thinks that way. Then suddenly you will want to be Mr. Dad and tell her how much you really do want a baby.. Quit being silly
She wants to go on vacation and you immediately start talking about how you can't afford it. She wants to talk about having children and you immediately take the oppostie view and. These things turn women off. Did you hear that? That turns women OFF.
I am wondering if you are so controlling and obsessed with her that you don't want a baby because it would take time and her attention from you. Wise up
Gucci,
You are right. I always seem to go against the grain. When our sitch began and for the past 7 months I regretted never starting a family with my W. My W always talked about having children one day (soon) and I always had reasons (excuses) why not to.
Now that my W has given us that second chance and is talking about once again US starting a family I start my doubting. Many things go through my head such as finances, the current state of our R...it is a like a whirlwind. I get so caught up that I fail to see the pure joy it would be to start a family with my W.
I WILL change my tune. I WANT the same things my W does, I worry about the logistics rather than letting things just be. I will just let them be from now on.
I thank you for you insight and advice.
I am also a nit wit and I am ruining our chances (keep reading)
W came home from work and was in a bad mood. I greeted W with a welcoming "Hi" and W responded with "Hi" but sounded as if I had forced it out of her. Instinctively I asked my W is she was OK and she simply replied "fine."
W then showed me a couple pics on her cellphone she took of our dog as she walked in the door. W then went on to tell me how a female co-worker and her got into a conversation a show that my W and I are going to on July 29th and coincidentally so is the female co-worker. My W thought it was funny and so I expressed I I too thought it was amusing.
After, W went and changed out of her work clothes and came to lay in bed. W laid in bed with her back turned toward me and was distant (in space). I questioned W why she was so far away (mistake) after a day we had like yesterday. W got upset and said "Just because we 'did that' does not mean were going to do it everyday, I can't just jump in a pool of happiness, it is going to take time."
I guess at that point I questioned why she would consider starting a family with me is things between us are not so great (HUGE MISTAKE).
W said "Nothing is going to be like it was" I told W "I understand that and I agree, I don't want things to be like they were" then I went on to say "I think we should establish better communication between each other, it is OK for a H/W to tell the other what it is they want or need..." then I went on to say (which I probably should not had) "...what is it you want from me" and W replied "To feel loved and feel like I am everything"
Not sure how to respond. I create my own problems. If I did not try to read into her mood when she came home and just let her figure things out for herself it would never had resulted in that conversation. WOW.
Then I read Gucci's post and wanted to kick myself. I know you all told me this and are becoming frustrated me ( I can only imagine how my W feels) and I apologize, please bare with me. I GET IT (you have my word). Thank you for all the help and guidance.
Gucci,
I agree with you that OIN should be FAR more positive (and less paternal, too, btw) around his wife.
I also think there's no way in Hell they should be having a baby yet at this tender stage of their reconcilation. Just a few weeks ago several of us were seriously wondering if his wife has serious mental health issues (to go with all of her physical health issues). I still hold this view.
This doesn't mean he needs to throw WATER on it when she brings it up -- he can artfully dodge with a "I would like to eventually have children, too; let's just take this slow and steady, okay?" -- but that would be it, in my opinion.
I've followed his sitch from the start, and I'm in agreement with everything you've been coaching here -- 'cept for the baby part.
Which, OIN, begs the question and I'm sorry to be so personal, but it's certainly germane to the topic at hand:
Was this protected, or UN-protected sex your wife and you had?
Puppy
Which, OIN, begs the question and I'm sorry to be so personal, but it's certainly germane to the topic at hand:
Was this protected, or UN-protected sex your wife and you had? confused
The latter.
W said "Nothing is going to be like it was" I told W "I understand that and I agree, I don't want things to be like they were" then I went on to say "I think we should establish better communication between each other, it is OK for a H/W to tell the other what it is they want or need..." then I went on to say (which I probably should not had) "...what is it you want from me" and W replied "To feel loved and feel like I am everything"
OIN, I'm a little confused. If the conversation went down like you wrote, you should be doing backflips. You asked her what she needed, and she told you. No arguments or blame, just what she needed to feel loved.
Listen, really listen to what she's saying. What is her love language, and do you know how to speak it? She WANTS you to meet her needs. You're on the right path. You CAN do this.
(And to think, they call ME Eeyore...
)
Now here is the thing. W is so set on starting a family and I am set on building a healthy loving R/M. I cannot imagine bringing a child into a situation or state our marriage is currently in.
But yet, you have unprotected intercourse with her.
Oy, vey.
Puppy
Now here is the thing. W is so set on starting a family and I am set on building a healthy loving R/M. I cannot imagine bringing a child into a situation or state our marriage is currently in.
But yet, you have unprotected intercourse with her.
Oy, vey.
Puppy
Yes
. It just happened (the love making part). W said and I quote (getting a little personal here) "Just let it happen"
W is set on starting a family. She truly wants 'this' to be reality. I tried to speak logic. I certainly wanted/still want to seek relationship help W agreed but has not got on board with anything yet. I also told W if we were going to start family in the near future it would be best we go to parenting classes, W agreed and she actually did a little research for such programs in our area but nothing more.
I always had excuses as to why we could not have children in the past while she wanted to. From school, work to finances I continues to tell her that now is not the time. It then got to a point where I started to use her physical appearance as an excuse not to have children (I became a terrible person). So when I tell her now that I want to just not right now she thinks of me as being OIN of the past.
W said "Nothing is going to be like it was" I told W "I understand that and I agree, I don't want things to be like they were" then I went on to say "I think we should establish better communication between each other, it is OK for a H/W to tell the other what it is they want or need..." then I went on to say (which I probably should not had) "...what is it you want from me" and W replied "To feel loved and feel like I am everything"
OIN, I'm a little confused. If the conversation went down like you wrote, you should be doing backflips. You asked her what she needed, and she told you. No arguments or blame, just what she needed to feel loved.
Listen, really listen to what she's saying. What is her love language, and do you know how to speak it? She WANTS you to meet her needs. You're on the right path. You CAN do this.
(And to think, they call ME Eeyore...
)
Those are the words we exchanged but it tone of our voices were not as pleasant...
I don't know W's love language I read the 5LL book twice and even asked W "Thinking back, is there a time where I did or said something that truly made you feel loved by me" W did not/still has not answered the question. I think this is where the tension stems from...I feel as if my efforts have no impact or in other words I am speaking the wrong LL and cannot find the right one.
I always had excuses as to why we could not have children in the past while she wanted to. From school, work to finances I continues to tell her that now is not the time. It then got to a point where I started to use her physical appearance as an excuse not to have children (I became a terrible person). So when I tell her now that I want to just not right now she thinks of me as being OIN of the past.
Oh please. This is different and she KNOWS it is; she's not STUPID, Officer. Less than a month ago she was openly wanting to divorce you. There are all kind of DBing topics we debate around here, with all kinds of views. I can only think of maybe THREE that are near-unanimous:
1. Don't move out of your own marital bed, or your own home.
2. It never hurts to get a good legal consultation.
3. Don't intentionally add a baby to the mix when you're still in the crisis stage of DBing, or still tender in the reconcilation process.
Puppy
You want parenting classes? And she hasn't gone far enough in getting them? It's up to her? Why? Are you part of this relationship, or do you just observe and report to us here? You want to heal the relationship, then find MC or a Retrouvaille weekend and tell her, "We need to do this. Let's sign up." You want parenting class, then find it and sign up. You've been told to lead, but all you do is observe and complain.
You want parenting classes? And she hasn't gone far enough in getting them? It's up to her? Why? Are you part of this relationship, or do you just observe and report to us here? You want to heal the relationship, then find MC or a Retrouvaille weekend and tell her, "We need to do this. Let's sign up." You want parenting class, then find it and sign up. You've been told to lead, but all you do is observe and complain.
I agree.
Puppy
During this time W had said ILY... since then W has not said it.
Is this a major concern for you? How many times would you have liked her to have said it?
No. I just don't believe it I guess. I use to see it in her eyes when she said it in the past. This was a very withdrawn ILY during an intimate moment...
ETERNAL FLAME FALLS STRIKES AGAIN! that place has a lot of spiritual and sexual energy
No. I just don't believe it I guess. I use to see it in her eyes when she said it in the past. This was a very withdrawn ILY during an intimate moment...
I can see why she has told you that nothing she ever did was ever good enough.(she seems to have been correct about that assessment) Now she isn't reconciling with you or making love with you correctly. Now that isn't good enough. She isn't saying it in the right way for you. When she WAS saying it with meaning, then THAT wasn't good enough for you and you beat her down emotionally until she DID stop meaning it and even stopped saying it. Now of course she isn't reconciling int the correct way for you. (when in FACT she is moving foward wonderfully)
I can sure see why she feels the way she has begun to feel.
Some people really are impossible to please. I have a suspicion you ARE one of those people. It is next to impossible for someon like her to make you happy. You will do whatever it takes to bring her down to your unhappiness level.
Before you did it in a different way than you are now. Now you have found a new way. You have tried to convince her you have changed, but deep inside you are still unhappy with her and with yourself and refuse to be a happy man. Total refusal. Now you are only using a different approach disguised under Divorce Busting mixed in a little.
You weren't happy before she wanted out, you weren't happy when she told you she was done, you aren't happy now..
The common demonimator here is you and unhappiness.
This is really more about YOU than about her. I will say it one more time and hopefully the light bulb will go off in your head..
LEARN TO BE A HAPPY MAN.. Don't gloss over that.. Do it.
I agree,
OIN I think you might have some extremely high expectations,
considering you are right at the beginning of the reconciliation, that's a recipe for disaster. In fact high expectations are a recipe for disaster at any time during a relationship, it's just a lot of pressure to deal with.
You were ready to accept that this relationship was over and live without her, now that you guys are reconciling you have to just accept her the way she is right now: she is damaged, broken, guarded, defensive, insecure, afraid that you guys will repeat all the same mistakes and end up exactly where you guys were.
Or you can just be happy because happiness is a DIY type job, only you can take care of your personal happiness, let go of the expectations, just let her be.
She may surprise you over time when she gets more comfortable around you and doesn't have to stand on top of a ladder meeting those high expectations you indirectly place on her and the relationship. When she gets more comfortable and relaxed around you, you may well see that "i love you's" come in a way that you want to hear them and all those other things you probably can't do right now.
just my 0.02 cents.
She may surprise you over time when she gets more comfortable around you and doesn't have to stand on top of a ladder meeting those high expectations you indirectly place on her and the relationship.
BINGO... She has already been a pleasant surprise. He just fails to see it now. She told him she wanted to stay and work it out. She has made love with him for the first time in seven months. She told him she loved him while making love. She told him she has always loved him. She is excited about going on a vacation with him. She wants to start a family with him.
Of course that isn't good enough now. Very sad.
Some men are never happy with what their wife wants. If she wants this, then he doesn't. If she enjoys this, then he doesn't want her to enjoy it. If she is happy, he brings her down with negatives. If she wants a baby, he tries to bring her down by telling her why it isn't right. IF she wants divorce, he then tries to tell her why they shouldn't give up.
One common thread... He takes the opposite view so that he can bring her unhappiness down to match his unhappiness. Then he feels better.
Remember.. MISERY loves company. He feels better if he can keep misery in his life.
You want parenting classes? And she hasn't gone far enough in getting them? It's up to her? Why? Are you part of this relationship, or do you just observe and report to us here? You want to heal the relationship, then find MC or a Retrouvaille weekend and tell her, "We need to do this. Let's sign up." You want parenting class, then find it and sign up. You've been told to lead, but all you do is observe and complain.
I did not say it was up to her. I researched classes/courses in our area and nothing is available to us. There are courses more intended for expectant mothers but not couples.
Retrouvaille weekend is available in our area the weekend of 09/10/10. When I first researched this and told W about it and she told me to send the link to her email and she would read it later, which I did. I am not sure if she ever read it or not but she certainly had not brought it back up. After reading your post I said to W "I'm going to sign us up for the Retrouvaille weekend, it sounds like it will benefit our relationship." W replied "It is on the weekend and I cannot take time off of work." What more can I say?
I did not think by me posting on this forum in attempts to seek advice and vent was considered complaining. If that is the case, I rather complain here than to my W.
No. I just don't believe it I guess. I use to see it in her eyes when she said it in the past. This was a very withdrawn ILY during an intimate moment...
I can see why she has told you that nothing she ever did was ever good enough.(she seems to have been correct about that assessment) Now she isn't reconciling with you or making love with you correctly. Now that isn't good enough. She isn't saying it in the right way for you. When she WAS saying it with meaning, then THAT wasn't good enough for you and you beat her down emotionally until she DID stop meaning it and even stopped saying it. Now of course she isn't reconciling int the correct way for you. (when in FACT she is moving foward wonderfully)
I can sure see why she feels the way she has begun to feel.
Some people really are impossible to please. I have a suspicion you ARE one of those people. It is next to impossible for someon like her to make you happy. You will do whatever it takes to bring her down to your unhappiness level.
Before you did it in a different way than you are now. Now you have found a new way. You have tried to convince her you have changed, but deep inside you are still unhappy with her and with yourself and refuse to be a happy man. Total refusal. Now you are only using a different approach disguised under Divorce Busting mixed in a little.
You weren't happy before she wanted out, you weren't happy when she told you she was done, you aren't happy now..
The common demonimator here is you and unhappiness.
This is really more about YOU than about her. I will say it one more time and hopefully the light bulb will go off in your head..
LEARN TO BE A HAPPY MAN.. Don't gloss over that.. Do it.
I agree,
OIN I think you might have some extremely high expectations,
considering you are right at the beginning of the reconciliation, that's a recipe for disaster. In fact high expectations are a recipe for disaster at any time during a relationship, it's just a lot of pressure to deal with.
You were ready to accept that this relationship was over and live without her, now that you guys are reconciling you have to just accept her the way she is right now: she is damaged, broken, guarded, defensive, insecure, afraid that you guys will repeat all the same mistakes and end up exactly where you guys were.
Or you can just be happy because happiness is a DIY type job, only you can take care of your personal happiness, let go of the expectations, just let her be.
She may surprise you over time when she gets more comfortable around you and doesn't have to stand on top of a ladder meeting those high expectations you indirectly place on her and the relationship. When she gets more comfortable and relaxed around you, you may well see that "i love you's" come in a way that you want to hear them and all those other things you probably can't do right now.
just my 0.02 cents.
I will provide an update of the past couple of days. I continue to re-read the two above quotes....
I'm glad you talked to her about Retrouvaille. Yes, it is the weekend. And thousands of people with jobs, and kids, and all kinds of encumbrances find a way to take 48 hours and go. Because saving their marriage is worth it. I hope you will get her to reconsider. I met many people on our weekend who said that they went to a lot of trouble to attend, some flew in from other areas, some drove 10 hours to get there, some left important jobs. Making the marriage a priority over everything else is the first step to making it better.
Saturday night:
After my exchange of posts on this forum I get ready for work. W Remains sleeping in bed. I catch up on the latest posts here and then it HIT ME. Gucci when you asked "Why do you always want to ruin her dreams" I felt empty. I never seen it that way.
I did some research on parenting classes and books and sent them to W in email.
I let W know I was leaving for work. W asked that I call at 930 as a wake up call for her, I told her I would do so. I kissed W on the forehead and then left for work.
For most of the night what you said Gucci lingered on my mind. I am crushing my W's dreams. I am making her more miserable than she already is and if she were to tell me that she no longer wanted our M again I would do exactly what you said....become "Mr. Dad."
I called W at 930 as she requested and our conversation went as follows
ME: "Hey sleeping beauty, did you rest OK?"
- in a very upbeat confidant tone.
W: "Yeah, it was OK"
- W's tone immediately become pleasant and upbeat as well as a result of my greeting
ME: "So Raven (our dog) was not a problem for you?"
- Dog gets a little crazy sometimes
W: "No"
ME: "Work is slow right now, hopefully it picks up"
W: "Oh, that stinks"
ME: "Tomorrow sometime maybe we could sit down and go over the finances for the trip. Plan things out, I am excited about going"
W: "Me too"
ME: "Also I was thinking we should start a fund to prepare the house for a baby. We can convert the exercise room and tear the rug up"
- Not saying it would happen right away but letting W know that I am also excited about starting a family someday.
W: "Yes, it would be nice to lay down a new floor and there is a lot of space in that room."
- W sounded very surprised and please with what I had said. I detected happiness in her voice.
ME: "Do you want to check out the polish festival tomorrow and see what it is all about"
W: "Yes"
I had to go and so did W so we ended the call with an exchange of good nights.
later on, (Sunday morning) W called me as she was on her way to work. W spoke briefly talking about our plans for the day.
I returned home from work in the morning (sunday). When I walked in the bedroom W had propped up a stuffed plush dog (A gift I got her several years ago because it resembled a dog we had that is now passed. W loved the dog) up on my pillow. It made me laugh. I had TM w that I thought it was funny and W replied "I'm glad, I did it on purpose"
W returned home from work. I was hope and ready so we could go and attend the festival. I decided to make some lunch and also prepared a plate for my W.
W walked in the door, was heading for the fridge when I showed her that I had prepared a plate. W said "thank you" and proceeded to eat.
We finished up with our lunch. I asked W if she wanted to go over plans for the trip and she said "maybe later"
We headed out the door and to the festival. While there W seen some baby clothing and became excited. So I joined W in the excitement and we looked at the clothing together. W did purchase a few things.
We then headed back home carrying on conversation about various things.
We get home, W said her shoulder was hurting, W asked if I could rub her should which I did. I suggested to W to go into the spa pool and relax. W and I went into the spa. We goofed around and W said "Why don't we go back inside" we went back inside and ended up ML.
W suggested we go to another festival and watch the fireworks, I said it was a good idea and decided to call off work. W then decided that she did not want to go and wanted to lay in bed, watch TV and relax. SO I joined her. We had conversations and at one point I said ILY to W and W said in response "I hope so. ILY2 but it is hard for me to show it"
W became irritated by what, I don't know. I asked W if she would like to go on the computer and do some planning for the trip. W got annoyed and said no...tension began to built between us. I just left W alone, went on the computer and started to look up destinations for the trip and W fell to sleep.
I'm glad you talked to her about Retrouvaille. Yes, it is the weekend. And thousands of people with jobs, and kids, and all kinds of encumbrances find a way to take 48 hours and go. Because saving their marriage is worth it. I hope you will get her to reconsider. I met many people on our weekend who said that they went to a lot of trouble to attend, some flew in from other areas, some drove 10 hours to get there, some left important jobs. Making the marriage a priority over everything else is the first step to making it better.
I will bring it up again. I just don't want to push it on her or pressure her to the point where she gets annoyed. I will give it a week or two and try to develop better relations on our own and suggest it again.
I heard about the sex. I'd keep having sex with her, every day if possible. I also would not talk too much and I would try to turn off analysis of her. Over time she will naturally open up, and you will view her the way you need to for her to return to the role of your "wife".
I also liked when you where finding things to do outside of the house, not to game her, but for your personal enjoyment.
SO I joined her. We had conversations and at one point I said ILY to W and W said in response "I hope so. ILY2 but it is hard for me to show it"
OIN,
I have read your thread, and I am glad that there has been some progress in your sitch. I believe that this is where the conversation should have ended that night. It seems that your W is overwhelmed by your situation. Try take cues like "it is hard for me to show it." She seemed to be having stress at that point.
Look for the times that W is ready to end the conversation. Just say "I know." Leave it at that.
I am happy for you and the good signs that are occurring for you and your W.
He's got to get some reps in where she says ILY, and that they do more ML sessions. Start putting away the overly critical lense and enjoy her as she is allowing to do so.
DLS,
Sex isn't everything especially in this case. Seriously I don't know where you get the idea that constant sex makes or breaks a relationship.
OIN, just keep showing her that the changes are real and rebuild the trust and intimacy. The sex is coming out naturally so just go with the flow. But not so much that she's going to feel like she needs to give you sex.
Mr Bond,
Its real simple, sex and lots of it is a shortcut to developing physical and emotional intimacy with your partner.
It IS the same method that they use to bond to an affair partner thru a PA, so how am I as a husband wrong for wanting to have this avenue for myself.
I personally believe a successful relationship will have frequent sex and intimacy if thats what they want to do.
If both of them are non-sexual, they will do what they do in that case.
For one thing if the other person is not ready for sex (and lots of it) then it comes across as neediness on OIN's part and could be a turnoff for his W.
"a successful relationship"
Again, this is NOT a successful relationship yet so you can't push the sex yet.
It seems like your answer to everything is lots of sex which is fine as long as the trust and intimacy is there. If not it's going to come off as being needy.
I'm not trying to defend myself with the following responce.
On a Technical level. It is my belief that if a sexual-therapist had recommmended OIN and his wife a recipe of 30 days of physical intimacy, with very little communication over the timer period, that they are going to bridge a great many gaps in a very short period of time.
I do not think sex will rebuild our R. In the past W had told me that I was only nice to her during sex and after I made her feel like garbage. W also told me during our sitch that we got married for all the wrong reasons and I believe one of those reason was sex.
I have shown W and will continue to do so that I can simply hold her without expecting to have sex.
Since my last post...
W woke up in the middle of the night and asked me what time it was. I was up in bed having trouble sleeping. I had a long day a head of me today (court all day and work tonight). W had apologized to me for falling to sleep due to her headache. I told W that "there is no need to be sorry I understand your head hurts you and you need your rest"
W and I both fell to sleep. This morning I got up and ready for court. W woke up briefly and ask if I had time to make her breakfast before I left, I had time so I did so. W was in bed when I left, I let W know I was leaving and W said "be careful"
When I returned home later this morning W was up and in the shower. I had fell to sleep during this time. W had Dr. appt for migraines so she got ready and left. I had woke back up and headed back to court on another case. On my way into court W was leaving the Dr. W said she was prescribed a new medication. W said she told the Dr. that "My husband and I want to start a family how would these medications affect a pregnancy" I just listened and said "I hope these new meds work and the headaches finally go away."
Just before W had called I got an email from the retrouvaille rep in our area. I told W the details of the email and said to W "I am going to put a deposit in to hold a spot for us, I really believe we can benefit from going and will be well worth it" W said "I hope so." We ended the conversation with an exchange of ILY.
The question is...Should I not be saying ILY? is that too much pressure? W does say it in return but does no initiate.
When I returned home form work again W was in the kitchen, I walked over to her and gave her a hug. W showed me what she had purchased while she was out (some floral arrangements) I told W how great the arrangements looked and expressed how she has great design sense.
W seems very mopey or withdrawn at times. My instinct is to ask her if there is anything wrong but at the same time I don't want to pressure/overwhelm her...
If she's been saying ILY, I don't see there being any problems with you saying it. Keep going slow and steady. SHOW her you understand through your actions. Actions speak louder than words.
You're doing great here! You know that I am pleased that you slipped that Retrouvaille thing in there. It will be worth it.
As for the ILY's. Try to keep it comfortable. If she says it first, definitely say it back. Other times, maybe say it with your eyes. There are so many ways to say ILY, sometimes those other ways mean more than just the 3 little words.
W had apologized to me for falling to sleep due to her headache. I told W that "there is no need to be sorry I understand your head hurts you and you need your rest"
Do NOT say "there is no need to be sorry"..
The better reply to her is.."Oh that's ok honey, I know your head hurts and you need your rest"
This morning I got up and ready for court. W woke up briefly and ask if I had time to make her breakfast before I left, I had time so I did so. W was in bed when I left, I let W know I was leaving and W said "be careful"
Perfect. BE A HAPPY MAN.. This was all good. She asked you to make breakfast, you had time, you made breakfast, you let her know you were leaving (HAPPILY I HOPE) and she said be careful.... This shows things are moving right along. BE A HAPPY MAN...
W said she told the Dr. that "My husband and I want to start a family how would these medications affect a pregnancy" I just listened and said "I hope these new meds work and the headaches finally go away."
This should continue to make you A HAPPY MAN. She is WANTING TO HAVE A BABY WITH YOU.. (get it?? women don't normally want to have a baby with men they don't love or are going to leave...)
Just before W had called I got an email from the retrouvaille rep in our area. I told W the details of the email and said to W "I am going to put a deposit in to hold a spot for us, I really believe we can benefit from going and will be well worth it" W said "I hope so." We ended the conversation with an exchange of ILY.
EXCELLENT AGAIN.... This should again keep you being A HAPPY MAN.. I love the way you said this part here "
I am going to put a deposit in to hold a spot for us, I really believe we can benefit from going and will be well worth it"THAT is the way you take charge and tell a woman things. "I decided" type of attitude.. Good job. Notice how she just went along with it.. be the leader.. be a HAPPY LEADER. BE A HAPPY MAN..
The question is...Should I not be saying ILY? is that too much pressure? W does say it in return but does no initiate.
MY question is.. WHY are you saying it.. To get her to say it back or to find out IF she loves you? To hear her say it back? That is the way it is coming across to me. Women can sense when you have lack of confidence when you say things like that. AND you Do LACK CONFIDENCE.. Which means it is coming across to her as.... "please say it back to me, oh please tell me you love me too.. I love you I love you, do you love me back?"
NOT GOOD...
IF you are going to say it THEN be a man about it(my concern is that you will go ovwerboard because you are so needy. I hate telling you it is ok to say it because of that need you seem to have for constant reassurance that she loves you)..Be A HAPPY MAN and say it like you mean it and say it whether she says it back or not. She has TOLD you she loves you and always has. Isn't part of trusting, believing what she is telling you? Then BELIEVE HER. Stop being unhappy and start to be A HAPPY MAN... You should be thrilled the way things are going and you still seem like a sad sack with no goals or passion about something other than obsessing about your wife. No wonder she feels smothered. You seem to think her being at the Dr for an hour is time apart... Not good to think like that.
OIN,
Let me tell you a problem that is going to end up destroying your marriage. Either sooner or later, but it WILL destroy it..
YOUR low self esteem. You self esteem is so low that you have a hard time believing that not only your wife could love you, but most any woman. THAT is your problem. You almost ruined your relationship by the ten years of abuse. That abuse is a symptom of your low self esteem and needing to bring her down so you can feel better.
PLEASE do not fall victim to your low self esteem. You need to start changing your thought process. You need to start thinking in terms of "wow I really have changed and I am a good catch now, I am glad she still loves me and I almost blew it. I have come a long way and I will be fine with or without her. She says she loves me and I am going to accept that. She says she is going to try and I do see that she is and I am thankful that she is. I can't believe how happy I now am that we have come so far."
Better than sex: In Youngstown this weekend there is a regatta.
You should be able to see most of the course racing Saturday and Sunday from Fort. For a sleepy little hollow, the town will be a fun time with a few good restaurants for dinner and cocktails.
I'd make reservations ahead of time.
Just something to think about. I would hate to see you all talk about the same things over and over, and over and over.
Update since last post:
W slept up till I left for work, when leaving for work, I told W that I was taking off, gave W a kiss and said I would call her around 930 or so, W said "OK."
Just as I pulled out my driveway I called Retrouvaille and asked some questions about the program, explained our situation pretty much saying "W and I ran in to M problems, for the past 7 months W told me she wanted separation and eventually divorce, over a week ago W said she wanted to work on our marriage. We have communication trouble and W has a lot of resnetment toward me from past hurt" The person said that is exactly what the weekend is for...He proceeded to ask me a few questions and make a few statements. He then said that he or his W would need to speak with my W to get confirmation she is committed. I told him I will talk with my W and go from there.
Later in the night during some down time I called W. W told me how she still had a headache and she did not take new meds yet because she is afraid of the side affects. I talk to W about how my night was going so far we had a few different conversations non-R. I then told W how I called the Retrouvaille and explained the questions I was asked ect...I said to W "They require to speak to both H/W before sending out the application. They do have a few questions for you. I told him I would let you know and allow you to arrange a time to speak with them" W said "OK"
I then went on to tell W about the cost, lodging ect.
We then spoke briefly about a free concert we plan on attending tomorrow.
Knowing that we or I have to go grocery shopping I knew W would not have anything to eat in the AM. I told W that on my way home from work in the morning I will bring us some breakfast. W sound like she liked the idea.
Detecting W sounding drowsy and in pain due to headache I told W I would let her rest and said good night, W returned the goodnight. End of Call
===================================================
Do NOT say "there is no need to be sorry"..
The better reply to her is.."Oh that's ok honey, I know your head hurts and you need your rest"
OK. In the past W would say "I always felt like I am doing wrong" and would apologize often. I just wanted to let her know that she has reason to be sorry, she did nothing wrong but I agree your way sounds better. Also about that conversation W had also asked me "Do you wish you would had gone to work now?" and I replied "No, I enjoyed spending the day with you"
MY question is.. WHY are you saying it.. To get her to say it back or to find out IF she loves you? To hear her say it back? That is the way it is coming across to me. Women can sense when you have lack of confidence when you say things like that. AND you Do LACK CONFIDENCE.. Which means it is coming across to her as.... "please say it back to me, oh please tell me you love me too.. I love you I love you, do you love me back?"
NOT GOOD...
I want to say "NO" but when I think about it I convinced myself that her words would be affirmation that she does. Terrible way of thinking and I can see where she would get annoyed by this. She said she does, I know she does and I will accept she does. I will stop saying ILY because I am the only one initiating it at this point and I will show her through actions.
Gucci, you are reading me like a book. Please know I am not purposely failing. Your advice is great and I will continue to follow it.
Better than sex: In Youngstown this weekend there is a regatta.
You should be able to see most of the course racing Saturday and Sunday from Fort. For a sleepy little hollow, the town will be a fun time with a few good restaurants for dinner and cocktails.
I'd make reservations ahead of time.
Just something to think about. I would hate to see you all talk about the same things over and over, and over and over.
Not our cup of tea. W absolutely hates racing (as do I) but appreciate the suggesting. There are actually a series of free concerts coming to the region throughout July and August that we plan on attending. Keep the suggestions coming, I am always looking for new things for us to experience.
OIN,
Remember.. You ARE telling your wife you love her when you are doing things like...
Being nice to her....
Making her breakfast....
Stopping at the store for her.....
Holding her hand when walking or shopping...
allowing her to be happy and dream about vacations and having kids and other things she looks forward to while YOU act happy for her and interested and excited too...
changing things about yourself to become a better man... For you AND for her..(it IS okay to want to be a better man for your wife's benefit too you know..)
allowing her to be who she is.. allowing her to be angry... allowing her to be sad.. allowing her to be sick.... allowing her to be distant... allowing all of these things WHILE you stay happy, consistent and mature...
AND..... BEING A HAPPY MAN.. this tells her that SHE helps make you happy.. BE A HAPPY MAN.. She needs to see that SHE helps to make you happy....
Those are all ways that you are telling her you love her.
Gucci,
You are right it is all about OIN's actions.
He's now getting kisses and able to hold hands. I bet he can sit down on the couch next to her and watch a movie with her. Give her a massage when her head or back is hurting.
Its definately improving. I'm sure the last sex session just happened that way, I'm sure she's going to test sex again with her husband before too long.
She wants a baby. Sex will be on her agenda more now.
I think he gets to start reading books and articles on being a better lover. He needs to put it on her. He's going to get alot of mojo back and appear sexier to him, just because she is allowing him to have her.
I was shut out for 6 months, and just got a scrap last week. Let me tell you, it really took all that Negative Nancy stress out of me and made me a really cool boy. The effect lasted for several days. Being allowed to use my magic stick like "Mista Lova Lova", I know will inject all types of good mojo and kharma into me, and allow all the old stale pain and self-feedback to be released.
Its the same for OIN. Next time he gets it, he should make it last, and make sure he makes her FEEL IT.
She wants a baby. Sex will be on her agenda more now.
Which is precisely why I still don't trust her motives.
Puppy
I don't know what you mean Puppy?
I am not Puppy and I thought it be best I keep my mouth shut but...
A few weeks ago OIN's W couldn't even begin to manage her work schedule, a gardening project or other really normal things. She was tearing things up and breaking things. I guess I just find it odd that now she is in a place to have a child.
The statement that struck me REALLY odd is OIN said he always had an excuse as to why they could not have a baby for years. His wife JUST turned 25 last week and they have only been married for 9 months. How many years has she been wanting a baby with you? If ya'll got together when she was 14 and you mentioned school being in the way it just seems strange to me (which I realize means jack crap!).
Throwing a baby in the mix (even if you both want one) at this time seems like a bit much IMO!
I don't know what you mean Puppy?
I mean, I think she is only being nice to him, and LMing, because she's trying to get pregnant. Even if she's not, I still think that having a baby right now is the last thing they should be doing, until they are on a more solid footing.
It's her earlier "I want to get elective things done on his health insurance" issue, redux.
Puppy
I agree with Puppy.
There are many couples who feel that having a baby will solve all their problems. But unless they have the right foundation, a baby will add more problems.
What's going to happen when all her attention starts shifting to the baby? They should learn how to cope with each other first.
Also I haven't seen much remorse on her side for what had happened. She still seems to place the blame solely on OIN and from what's been seen here time and time again is that an apology must come from the WAS. If not, they may believe what they did was right and will end up doing it again.
Just because he's going to have sex with her doesn't mean he HAS to shoot for a new baby.
City,,
You are jumping the gun..
They DON'T have a baby yet. They are TALKING and discussing and sharing their feelings and looking into having a baby.
This is how relationships go. Your goals change. This is how reconciliations go. People talk about whether they are going to keep the same house, or buy a new one. She is sharing her feelings...
I say.. LET HER SHARE her feeings. I have yet to see that it is a done deal that they are now having a baby and it is set in stone and she is using him... I say.. Let her open up and dream about it and he should be ALLOWING her to open up and and allow himself to be open to the same dreams.
He is now handling it correctly. He is mixing getting involved and interested with her in having children, along with taking charge of getting counseling (which she is going along with at the present, which means she IS invested in this working too) as well as learning to be a happy man...
This is his problem. He should be HAPPY that she is wanting children with him and now thinking about it. Should she be thinking about all the problems and the OM still? That it is what she is TIRED of doing. She is bored with talking about the relationship. She is tired of working on it. She just wants it to BE... He needs to understand again how she is FEELING and THINKING.. She is focusing on other interests and things that make her happy. AS HE SHOULD BE DOING. AS WE have been telling HIM. What does it matter if she is excited or wants a child. Very normal for a woman.
I agree with Puppy.
There are many couples who feel that having a baby will solve all their problems. But unless they have the right foundation, a baby will add more problems.
A truism.
Puppy
Just because he's going to have sex with her doesn't mean he HAS to shoot for a new baby.
I'm not saying he is, DLS. I'm saying SHE is. She's on record with as much, and she's already gotten him to have unprotected sex with her, even though his own position is (and I'm paraphrasing, as I don't have the exact quote in front of me) he's "dead-set against it."
Puppy
I don't see anything wrong talking about it. He did say though he had unprotected sex and well, maybe that is more than talking about it.
I am REALLY glad they are planning on going to C'ing. REALLY happy for them! I also agree that OIN needs to learn to be happy and less controlling. As an outsider though, from what I have read since the very start, it does seem (to me) that OIN's wife usually has an agenda (ex: the plastic surgery, the party, the baby).
Things just appear fragile and since OIN's W still works with OM and this is all so new it seems logical to take things slow!
Ahh, here's the quote:
I cannot imagine bringing a child into a situation or state our marriage is currently in.
This was
3 days ago.
I will say it again..
They are TALKING and discussing and sharing feelings about having a baby... They are talking about going on vacation. They are talking about counseling.
This is how GOOD relationship work. She talks and tells her feelings and he agrees..
It then works...
City,,
You are jumping the gun..
They DON'T have a baby yet. They are TALKING and discussing and sharing their feelings and looking into having a baby.
This is how relationships go. Your goals change. This is how reconciliations go. People talk about whether they are going to keep the same house, or buy a new one. She is sharing her feelings...
I say.. LET HER SHARE her feeings. I have yet to see that it is a done deal that they are now having a baby and it is set in stone and she is using him... I say.. Let her open up and dream about it and he should be ALLOWING her to open up and and allow himself to be open to the same dreams.
Gooch,
You know I luv ya, man, and I am in FULL AGREEMENT with your general "you need to be a HAPPY MAN" advice that you've been giving OIN here. Real "4 Whistles" kinda stuff.
But this is NOT what you said the other day. You've changed your stance here. And besides, it's not a distinction that can be made when
she's trying to get him to HAVE UNPROTECTED SEX WITH HER, now is it??
Puppy
"Just because he's going to have sex with her doesn't mean he HAS to shoot for a new baby."
I think having unprotected sex "kind of" implies that she might get pregnant. Or at least that's what I've heard.
As an outsider though, from what I have read since the very start, it does seem (to me) that OIN's wife usually has an agenda (ex: the plastic surgery, the party, the baby).
Most all of us have agendas.
OIN's were (getting his wife back, getting to love him, changing so that she could see he had changed, going to counseling, DB'ing to save his marriage...)
We are all basically selfish when it comes down to it. The one trying to save the relationship is just as selfish.. "Don't divorce me, please work it out for me, please give me another chance" etc. etc.. The agenda is to get them back for YOU.. We use all sorts of excuses, but that is the bottom line.
Just because he's going to have sex with her doesn't mean he HAS to shoot for a new baby.
I'm not saying he is, DLS. I'm saying SHE is. She's on record with as much, and she's already gotten him to have unprotected sex with her, even though his own position is (and I'm paraphrasing, as I don't have the exact quote in front of me) he's "dead-set against it."
Puppy
In my sitch, I was "leg locked" at the time of orgasm. I was very good with the pull-out method over the year. Of course a baby was delivered at approximately 9 months after the first "leg lock"...
She wants a baby. Sex will be on her agenda more now.
Which is precisely why I still don't trust her motives.
Puppy
This is what I have been saying. I don't want to question my W's motives. I am indeed happy that my W does want to start a family with me but I am not sure if this is my W's way of making things better.
The statement that struck me REALLY odd is OIN said he always had an excuse as to why they could not have a baby for years. His wife JUST turned 25 last week and they have only been married for 9 months. How many years has she been wanting a baby with you? If ya'll got together when she was 14 and you mentioned school being in the way it just seems strange to me (which I realize means jack crap!).
When my W was 19 and I was 21 I had asked my W to marry me. We set no date because my W was in college and I told her that we should at least wait until she graduated and settled in a career before we got married. This dragged out for a few years. W began to doubt if we would ever get married. After a while the thought (of getting married anytime soon),on my part, just faded.
During our 5 year engagement, W had brought up many times the thought about starting a family. I would tell W, after we get married (which would not happen until she finished up with school) and get a house and we both have steady jobs. Sounds reasonable I suppose. Then I started to tell W some terrible things such as "I don't want to have children" (which I did I was just saying to get to her) I would then tell her "I don't want to have children with you" , "You would make a terrible mother", "You have so many issues that our child would not be healthy so I don't want to have children with you"...I said these things to break her down while all along I actually did intend on starting a family with my W but looking back I couldn't see how she would want to start a family with someone like me who said those awful things to her.
Also I haven't seen much remorse on her side for what had happened. She still seems to place the blame solely on OIN and from what's been seen here time and time again is that an apology must come from the WAS. If not, they may believe what they did was right and will end up doing it again.
I have read on this forum that remorse or an apology could take months or nearly a year from a WAS (We are only 1 week, 3 days from W saying she wants to try again). Would I like an apology? absolutely. Do I feel an apology is necessary in order to reconcile? no. If I waved that expectation over her head then we would never make progress. I will let her come to terms with what she did on her own.
==========================================
TODAY:
I return home form work this morning (6am) on my way home from work I pick me and my W up breakfast. I get home W is in bed, she waked up as I walk in the bedroom. I give W breakfast in best. W thanks me.
W and I have conversation about my night at work as we eat breakfast. Shortly after I lay down and try to get some sleep. W tells me she is going to take a shower, as she walks away I say "I will join you" W replies "It is going to take me a while to wash my hair" implying it is not best I join her. Usually takes W 20 minutes just to wash and treat her hair...I take no offense and just roll over and begin to fall to sleep.
Later on (not sure how later) W comes back to bed and falls to sleep. However long later, I wake up to the sound of W walking around the bedroom...W was unclothed. I reached out to touch W and she pulled back saying "please don't" I immediately retracted my arm and said "OK." My W made me feel as if I violated her, which I can see why she would feel uncomfortable. W continued to get ready and I too decided to get out of bed. W had to run to the bank, after a kiss and a hug W left.
W returned back home and we headed out the door. We headed to the mall to make a quick stop so W could pick up the makeup she ran out of. I held W's hand as we walked into the mall and as we walked around the mall.
W walked into a jewelry store (W collects these beads/charms by pandora that go on a bracelet) and W wanted to purchase a bead that was called "wedding cake" for her bracelet. We then headed out the mall. Once we got in the car, W pulled out the bead and said "there is room to get an engraving on the bottom" I said to W "You are right. Looks like there is a lot of room for an engraving"
W wanted to go to the book store to see if they had the parenting books which I sent to her in email a few days ago. W and I scanned through some books in the parenting section. We decided on two books. During this time I said to W "I am exciting about starting a family with you but it is in our best interest to work on our M first. Ideally we should try to conceive after the fall maybe early next year assuming things are better, we just need to take it one step at a time" W replied "I know this"
W and I then headed to gt some lunch. After lunch we headed out to the location of the concert we were attending (about 45 min drive). During the drive W and I talked about a wide range of things. W and I held hands at times and there were other times I would simply place my hand on her leg and she would then put her hand on top of mine.
W got to the concert site, outdoor venue. We found a spot to sit and then took a seat. Not much of a choice due to the venue being packed (free concert). We had some obnoxious people sit next to us. During the concert I placed arm around W, a few times she relaxed her head on my shoulder. Other times W rest her arm on my leg or held my hand.
The female sitting next to us became very annoying and started to aggravate my W. At one point the women lit a cigarette (my w has asthma and cannot stand the smoke) this had my W fuming but she bit her tongue. W then started to talk to herself out loud hoping the women would over hear. I said to W "We can just move" W became upset with me and said "We should not have to move I am not moving" W was upset with me as well. When we did leave, W explained to me why she was so upset and I agreed because the situation got me upset as well and then W said "I know she is a female but I always feel like you don't stick up for me, that I am always the one to blame"
That is very untrue, I always stuck up for W in the past but she would get upset because I would overreact as she would put it. In this instance it was a female (no excuse) and I thought that I spoke up it would had made the matter worse so I offered an alternate solution instead.... I did tell W this along with "...but you are right, I should had spoke up and stuck up for you as a husband should for his wife"
W just wanted to drop it and so we did. On the way home we talked and held hands, similar to the trip there. We agreed that when we got home we would look up hotels for our trip and select the 3 we like the most and go from there. Once we pulled in the driveway W and I briefly kissed, W stopped saying she was worried about the dog and just wanted to get in the house.
W wanted to pull out her work uniform for the morning, during this time I walked up from behind and hugged W and she said "I just want to find my uniform...." so I stopped and went about my business.
Once W got things situated, her and I went through the list of hotels and got our final few.
W got ready for bed and as she was doing so I got caught up on the posts in this thread. I said to W "before you go to bed can I talk to you about something?" W replied "If it is quick"
I said "The conversations we had along with the books we just purchased should be a great indication that I do want to start a family with you." Then I went on to say "During the past 7 months I have said to you that 'you don't get married and hope things get better, you make things better then get married. You don't buy a house and hope things get better, you make things better and by a house...I feel the same way about you getting pregnant, that having a baby and hoping things get better is not going to make thing better...we have to work on our marriage first, make things better before starting a family"
W replied "I know" then I said "I hope that you are just as committed than I am to working on our marriage" W said nothing in return...W laid down and turned her back on me...then looked over her should to see if I was still waiting on a response. W had a slight smirk on her face and so I said "I take it you are not going to respond?" W replied "No"
I then said "There are steps we need to take before starting a family." W replied "I know this I am not stupid, I know things have to improve before having children, I am not stupid I know this."
W said "we can talk about this tomorrow" and I replied ( I should not had said this but) "I have heard that from you for the past week and we have yet spoke about it" W then said "Forget, we won't work on anything then, forget everything" I then replied "Is that how you truly feel? then tell me" W just closed her eyes and shook her head... I walked out the room.
I blew it or I am very close to blowing it. When we assume a future and talk about starting a family we do great. When I push R/M talk on her she gets annoyed or won't talk at all.
We were doing great today and then I blew it....
Also I haven't seen much remorse on her side for what had happened. She still seems to place the blame solely on OIN and from what's been seen here time and time again is that an apology must come from the WAS. If not, they may believe what they did was right and will end up doing it again.
Actually the blame is soley on OIN...
just ONE example here of how he treated his wife and suddenly now want her to love him back. He is LUCKY she didn't leave him years ago with talk like that. I certainly don't blame her for being cautious and think he is lucky she IS giving him a chance. No wonder she started to like someone else.
Then I started to tell W some terrible things such as "I don't want to have children" (which I did I was just saying to get to her) I would then tell her "I don't want to have children with you" , "You would make a terrible mother", "You have so many issues that our child would not be healthy so I don't want to have children with you"...I said these things to break her down while all along I actually did intend on starting a family with my W but looking back I couldn't see how she would want to start a family with someone like me who said those awful things to her.
Totally unacceptatble behavior for a man who says he loves his wife. I wouldn't expect HER to have remorse for much of anything if he talked to her like that for ten years.
I blew it or I am very close to blowing it. When we assume a future and talk about starting a family we do great. When I push R/M talk on her she gets annoyed or won't talk at all.
We were doing great today and then I blew it....
Yes you did blow it. You allowed others on here to get you stirred up about this baby issue that is now getting blown out of proportion didn't you?
I WARNED you about these things.
BE A HAPPY MAN..
You again acted like a man who is insecure with who you are and a man looking for a woman to tell him over and over and over and over.."I love you, yes I love you, Yes I love you"
Very unattractive. No wonder she rolls her eyes and doesn't want to talk about it. It really is unattractive. Trust me on these things.
Nowhere did I recommend that OIN initiate negative conversations with his wife. All I said was not to have unprotected sex with her.
There's a saying here in the South, that you always have to tell the truth, but you don't have to go around telling it.
Puppy
TODAY:
I return home form work this morning (6am) on my way home from work I pick me and my W up breakfast. I get home W is in bed, she waked up as I walk in the bedroom. I give W breakfast in best. W thanks me.
W and I have conversation about my night at work as we eat breakfast. Shortly after I lay down and try to get some sleep. W tells me she is going to take a shower, as she walks away I say "I will join you" W replies "It is going to take me a while to wash my hair" implying it is not best I join her. Usually takes W 20 minutes just to wash and treat her hair...I take no offense and just roll over and begin to fall to sleep.
Later on (not sure how later) W comes back to bed and falls to sleep. However long later, I wake up to the sound of W walking around the bedroom...W was unclothed. I reached out to touch W and she pulled back saying "please don't" I immediately retracted my arm and said "OK." My W made me feel as if I violated her, which I can see why she would feel uncomfortable. W continued to get ready and I too decided to get out of bed. W had to run to the bank, after a kiss and a hug W left.
W returned back home and we headed out the door. We headed to the mall to make a quick stop so W could pick up the makeup she ran out of. I held W's hand as we walked into the mall and as we walked around the mall.
W walked into a jewelry store (W collects these beads/charms by pandora that go on a bracelet) and W wanted to purchase a bead that was called "wedding cake" for her bracelet. We then headed out the mall. Once we got in the car, W pulled out the bead and said "there is room to get an engraving on the bottom" I said to W "You are right. Looks like there is a lot of room for an engraving"
W wanted to go to the book store to see if they had the parenting books which I sent to her in email a few days ago. W and I scanned through some books in the parenting section. We decided on two books. During this time I said to W "I am exciting about starting a family with you but it is in our best interest to work on our M first. Ideally we should try to conceive after the fall maybe early next year assuming things are better, we just need to take it one step at a time" W replied "I know this"
W and I then headed to gt some lunch. After lunch we headed out to the location of the concert we were attending (about 45 min drive). During the drive W and I talked about a wide range of things. W and I held hands at times and there were other times I would simply place my hand on her leg and she would then put her hand on top of mine.
W got to the concert site, outdoor venue. We found a spot to sit and then took a seat. Not much of a choice due to the venue being packed (free concert). We had some obnoxious people sit next to us. During the concert I placed arm around W, a few times she relaxed her head on my shoulder. Other times W rest her arm on my leg or held my hand.
The female sitting next to us became very annoying and started to aggravate my W. At one point the women lit a cigarette (my w has asthma and cannot stand the smoke) this had my W fuming but she bit her tongue. W then started to talk to herself out loud hoping the women would over hear. I said to W "We can just move" W became upset with me and said "We should not have to move I am not moving" W was upset with me as well. When we did leave, W explained to me why she was so upset and I agreed because the situation got me upset as well and then W said "I know she is a female but I always feel like you don't stick up for me, that I am always the one to blame"
That is very untrue, I always stuck up for W in the past but she would get upset because I would overreact as she would put it. In this instance it was a female (no excuse) and I thought that I spoke up it would had made the matter worse so I offered an alternate solution instead.... I did tell W this along with "...but you are right, I should had spoke up and stuck up for you as a husband should for his wife"
W just wanted to drop it and so we did. On the way home we talked and held hands, similar to the trip there. We agreed that when we got home we would look up hotels for our trip and select the 3 we like the most and go from there. Once we pulled in the driveway W and I briefly kissed, W stopped saying she was worried about the dog and just wanted to get in the house.
W wanted to pull out her work uniform for the morning, during this time I walked up from behind and hugged W and she said "I just want to find my uniform...." so I stopped and went about my business.
Once W got things situated, her and I went through the list of hotels and got our final few.
W got ready for bed and as she was doing so I got caught up on the posts in this thread. I said to W "before you go to bed can I talk to you about something?" W replied "If it is quick"
I said "The conversations we had along with the books we just purchased should be a great indication that I do want to start a family with you." Then I went on to say "During the past 7 months I have said to you that 'you don't get married and hope things get better, you make things better then get married. You don't buy a house and hope things get better, you make things better and by a house...I feel the same way about you getting pregnant, that having a baby and hoping things get better is not going to make thing better...we have to work on our marriage first, make things better before starting a family"
W replied "I know" then I said "I hope that you are just as committed than I am to working on our marriage" W said nothing in return...W laid down and turned her back on me...then looked over her should to see if I was still waiting on a response. W had a slight smirk on her face and so I said "I take it you are not going to respond?" W replied "No"
I then said "There are steps we need to take before starting a family." W replied "I know this I am not stupid, I know things have to improve before having children, I am not stupid I know this."
W said "we can talk about this tomorrow" and I replied ( I should not had said this but) "I have heard that from you for the past week and we have yet spoke about it" W then said "Forget, we won't work on anything then, forget everything" I then replied "Is that how you truly feel? then tell me" W just closed her eyes and shook her head... I walked out the room.
I blew it or I am very close to blowing it. When we assume a future and talk about starting a family we do great. When I push R/M talk on her she gets annoyed or won't talk at all.
We were doing great today and then I blew it....
OIN, I highlighted all of the places you pursued her, begged for affection and started R talks. Do you think she thought it was a great day?
She has told you she's trying to work on the M, but if you keep pushing her for more than she can give you right now, you are going to run her off.
Several times during the day, she asked for space or the chance to go to a neutral corner, but you kept pushing her until she snapped.
I took a long time to break this. You're not going to fix this in one day.
Lighten up, enjoy your time with her, give her some space, keep your mouth closed and your ears open, and JUST BREATHE.
eeyore is right on the money OIN...
That is exactly what happened. It is more begging than pursuing. You are sometimes begging for her to love you back...
I will AGAIN tell you your issue here..
You are NEVER satisfied or happy. Never satisfied "just the way things are"... This has been going on for over ten years.
You have made many nice changes, but the one I keep telling you is crucial to you, you keep right on glossing over and then going right back to not being satisfied. This is why she has felt for so long that nothing she does is good enough.
Why? BECAUSE IT ISN'T to you. Never is. Now her wanting a baby is turning into you PREACHING" to her about "we need" (notice that you did NOT say to her. "I feel or I think or in my opinion"..) no you said "we need to or we should or we shouldn't etc. etc..)
...we have to work on our marriage first, make things better before starting a family"
wrong way to communicate....."we HAVE to"... (she doesn't HAVE to do anything.)
No matter what you want to believe and no matter anything else... You are going to get farther ahead by ALLOWING her to have thoughts, feelings and opinions of her own. AND WELCOME them... She should not be saying to you..
" I know that, I am not stupid"... That is her telling you that she feels you are preaching or talking down to her or telling her you know more about the subject than she does, it tells her you KNOW that she hasn't thought of these things.
It is communication like this that doesn't work. Don't do what doesn't work. Do what WORKS.
eeyore is right on the money OIN...
That is exactly what happened. It is more begging than pursuing. You are sometimes begging for her to love you back...
I will AGAIN tell you your issue here..
You are NEVER satisfied or happy. Never satisfied "just the way things are"... This has been going on for over ten years.
You have made many nice changes, but the one I keep telling you is crucial to you, you keep right on glossing over and then going right back to not being satisfied. This is why she has felt for so long that nothing she does is good enough.
Why? BECAUSE IT ISN'T to you. Never is. Now her wanting a baby is turning into you PREACHING" to her about "we need" (notice that you did NOT say to her. "I feel or I think or in my opinion"..) no you said "we need to or we should or we shouldn't etc. etc..)
...we have to work on our marriage first, make things better before starting a family"
wrong way to communicate....."we HAVE to"... (she doesn't HAVE to do anything.)
No matter what you want to believe and no matter anything else... You are going to get farther ahead by ALLOWING her to have thoughts, feelings and opinions of her own. AND WELCOME them... She should not be saying to you..
" I know that, I am not stupid"... That is her telling you that she feels you are preaching or talking down to her or telling her you know more about the subject than she does, it tells her you KNOW that she hasn't thought of these things.
It is communication like this that doesn't work. Don't do what doesn't work. Do what WORKS.
Puppy
TODAY:
I return home form work this morning (6am) on my way home from work I pick me and my W up breakfast. I get home W is in bed, she waked up as I walk in the bedroom. I give W breakfast in best. W thanks me.
W and I have conversation about my night at work as we eat breakfast. Shortly after I lay down and try to get some sleep. W tells me she is going to take a shower, as she walks away I say "I will join you" W replies "It is going to take me a while to wash my hair" implying it is not best I join her. Usually takes W 20 minutes just to wash and treat her hair...I take no offense and just roll over and begin to fall to sleep.
Later on (not sure how later) W comes back to bed and falls to sleep. However long later, I wake up to the sound of W walking around the bedroom...W was unclothed. I reached out to touch W and she pulled back saying "please don't" I immediately retracted my arm and said "OK." My W made me feel as if I violated her, which I can see why she would feel uncomfortable. W continued to get ready and I too decided to get out of bed. W had to run to the bank, after a kiss and a hug W left.
W returned back home and we headed out the door. We headed to the mall to make a quick stop so W could pick up the makeup she ran out of. I held W's hand as we walked into the mall and as we walked around the mall.
W walked into a jewelry store (W collects these beads/charms by pandora that go on a bracelet) and W wanted to purchase a bead that was called "wedding cake" for her bracelet. We then headed out the mall. Once we got in the car, W pulled out the bead and said "there is room to get an engraving on the bottom" I said to W "You are right. Looks like there is a lot of room for an engraving"
W wanted to go to the book store to see if they had the parenting books which I sent to her in email a few days ago. W and I scanned through some books in the parenting section. We decided on two books. During this time I said to W "I am exciting about starting a family with you but it is in our best interest to work on our M first. Ideally we should try to conceive after the fall maybe early next year assuming things are better, we just need to take it one step at a time" W replied "I know this"
W and I then headed to gt some lunch. After lunch we headed out to the location of the concert we were attending (about 45 min drive). During the drive W and I talked about a wide range of things. W and I held hands at times and there were other times I would simply place my hand on her leg and she would then put her hand on top of mine.
W got to the concert site, outdoor venue. We found a spot to sit and then took a seat. Not much of a choice due to the venue being packed (free concert). We had some obnoxious people sit next to us. During the concert I placed arm around W, a few times she relaxed her head on my shoulder. Other times W rest her arm on my leg or held my hand.
The female sitting next to us became very annoying and started to aggravate my W. At one point the women lit a cigarette (my w has asthma and cannot stand the smoke) this had my W fuming but she bit her tongue. W then started to talk to herself out loud hoping the women would over hear. I said to W "We can just move" W became upset with me and said "We should not have to move I am not moving" W was upset with me as well. When we did leave, W explained to me why she was so upset and I agreed because the situation got me upset as well and then W said "I know she is a female but I always feel like you don't stick up for me, that I am always the one to blame"
That is very untrue, I always stuck up for W in the past but she would get upset because I would overreact as she would put it. In this instance it was a female (no excuse) and I thought that I spoke up it would had made the matter worse so I offered an alternate solution instead.... I did tell W this along with "...but you are right, I should had spoke up and stuck up for you as a husband should for his wife"
W just wanted to drop it and so we did. On the way home we talked and held hands, similar to the trip there. We agreed that when we got home we would look up hotels for our trip and select the 3 we like the most and go from there. Once we pulled in the driveway W and I briefly kissed, W stopped saying she was worried about the dog and just wanted to get in the house.
W wanted to pull out her work uniform for the morning, during this time I walked up from behind and hugged W and she said "I just want to find my uniform...." so I stopped and went about my business.
Once W got things situated, her and I went through the list of hotels and got our final few.
W got ready for bed and as she was doing so I got caught up on the posts in this thread. I said to W "before you go to bed can I talk to you about something?" W replied "If it is quick"
I said "The conversations we had along with the books we just purchased should be a great indication that I do want to start a family with you." Then I went on to say "During the past 7 months I have said to you that 'you don't get married and hope things get better, you make things better then get married. You don't buy a house and hope things get better, you make things better and by a house...I feel the same way about you getting pregnant, that having a baby and hoping things get better is not going to make thing better...we have to work on our marriage first, make things better before starting a family"
W replied "I know" then I said "I hope that you are just as committed than I am to working on our marriage" W said nothing in return...W laid down and turned her back on me...then looked over her should to see if I was still waiting on a response. W had a slight smirk on her face and so I said "I take it you are not going to respond?" W replied "No"
I then said "There are steps we need to take before starting a family." W replied "I know this I am not stupid, I know things have to improve before having children, I am not stupid I know this."
W said "we can talk about this tomorrow" and I replied ( I should not had said this but) "I have heard that from you for the past week and we have yet spoke about it" W then said "Forget, we won't work on anything then, forget everything" I then replied "Is that how you truly feel? then tell me" W just closed her eyes and shook her head... I walked out the room.
I blew it or I am very close to blowing it. When we assume a future and talk about starting a family we do great. When I push R/M talk on her she gets annoyed or won't talk at all.
We were doing great today and then I blew it....
OIN, I highlighted all of the places you pursued her, begged for affection and started R talks. Do you think she thought it was a great day?
She has told you she's trying to work on the M, but if you keep pushing her for more than she can give you right now, you are going to run her off.
Several times during the day, she asked for space or the chance to go to a neutral corner, but you kept pushing her until she snapped.
I took a long time to break this. You're not going to fix this in one day.
Lighten up, enjoy your time with her, give her some space, keep your mouth closed and your ears open, and JUST BREATHE.
Puppy
I think the thoughts of her visualizing the baby and the family is a good one. However like the others, right now is not exactly the time to be TRYING to have the baby. I don't know how far I would discuss it with her, but my belief is with more intimacy her viewpoint of OIN will change. She will start equating him more with safety, feeling happy and love.
I will state the same thought I did some time ago... IMO you and your W spend way too much time together. I understand you both work odd schedules (as in not a 9-5 type job) but other than work or personal errands the two of you have NO space! You never get to recharge and just take a step back.
One thing you might really consider practicing is using "I" statements. That was a biggie for me but it is helpful!
I blew it or I am very close to blowing it. When we assume a future and talk about starting a family we do great. When I push R/M talk on her she gets annoyed or won't talk at all.
We were doing great today and then I blew it....
Yes you did blow it. You allowed others on here to get you stirred up about this baby issue that is now getting blown out of proportion didn't you?
I WARNED you about these things.
BE A HAPPY MAN..
You again acted like a man who is insecure with who you are and a man looking for a woman to tell him over and over and over and over.."I love you, yes I love you, Yes I love you"
Very unattractive. No wonder she rolls her eyes and doesn't want to talk about it. It really is unattractive. Trust me on these things.
That is the thing, I am being a happy person. When we talk I am upbeat and excited. I am not longer looking for W to say ILY as affirmation What you all said made a lot of sense.
Here is my ISSUE.
1 day before W decided she wanted to work on our marriage (July 9th) W had said to me that she had felt vulnerable for a long time but did and said the things she did as a way to protect herself. UNDERSTANDABLE...
BUT then W went on to say "I had a plan to getting married and having children/start a family at a young age. You know I like to plan things out, so to start all over with someone else is something I don't know if I can do."
This is true, W does like to plan things out way ahead of time which means if we separated and then divorce, W met someone new, married then had children it would be a while and so W decided maybe it is just best she just stick it out and continue with her original plan.
This IS where I get weary that her intentions behind having a child are more of a 'plan'.
Nowhere did I recommend that OIN initiate negative conversations with his wife. All I said was not to have unprotected sex with her.
There's a saying here in the South, that you always have to tell the truth, but you don't have to go around telling it.
Puppy
However we did.
TODAY:
I return home form work this morning (6am) on my way home from work I pick me and my W up breakfast. I get home W is in bed, she waked up as I walk in the bedroom. I give W breakfast in best. W thanks me.
W and I have conversation about my night at work as we eat breakfast. Shortly after I lay down and try to get some sleep. W tells me she is going to take a shower, as she walks away I say "I will join you" W replies "It is going to take me a while to wash my hair" implying it is not best I join her. Usually takes W 20 minutes just to wash and treat her hair...I take no offense and just roll over and begin to fall to sleep.
Later on (not sure how later) W comes back to bed and falls to sleep. However long later, I wake up to the sound of W walking around the bedroom...W was unclothed. I reached out to touch W and she pulled back saying "please don't" I immediately retracted my arm and said "OK." My W made me feel as if I violated her, which I can see why she would feel uncomfortable. W continued to get ready and I too decided to get out of bed. W had to run to the bank, after a kiss and a hug W left.
W returned back home and we headed out the door. We headed to the mall to make a quick stop so W could pick up the makeup she ran out of. I held W's hand as we walked into the mall and as we walked around the mall.
W walked into a jewelry store (W collects these beads/charms by pandora that go on a bracelet) and W wanted to purchase a bead that was called "wedding cake" for her bracelet. We then headed out the mall. Once we got in the car, W pulled out the bead and said "there is room to get an engraving on the bottom" I said to W "You are right. Looks like there is a lot of room for an engraving"
W wanted to go to the book store to see if they had the parenting books which I sent to her in email a few days ago. W and I scanned through some books in the parenting section. We decided on two books. During this time I said to W "I am exciting about starting a family with you but it is in our best interest to work on our M first. Ideally we should try to conceive after the fall maybe early next year assuming things are better, we just need to take it one step at a time" W replied "I know this"
W and I then headed to gt some lunch. After lunch we headed out to the location of the concert we were attending (about 45 min drive). During the drive W and I talked about a wide range of things. W and I held hands at times and there were other times I would simply place my hand on her leg and she would then put her hand on top of mine.
W got to the concert site, outdoor venue. We found a spot to sit and then took a seat. Not much of a choice due to the venue being packed (free concert). We had some obnoxious people sit next to us. During the concert I placed arm around W, a few times she relaxed her head on my shoulder. Other times W rest her arm on my leg or held my hand.
The female sitting next to us became very annoying and started to aggravate my W. At one point the women lit a cigarette (my w has asthma and cannot stand the smoke) this had my W fuming but she bit her tongue. W then started to talk to herself out loud hoping the women would over hear. I said to W "We can just move" W became upset with me and said "We should not have to move I am not moving" W was upset with me as well. When we did leave, W explained to me why she was so upset and I agreed because the situation got me upset as well and then W said "I know she is a female but I always feel like you don't stick up for me, that I am always the one to blame"
That is very untrue, I always stuck up for W in the past but she would get upset because I would overreact as she would put it. In this instance it was a female (no excuse) and I thought that I spoke up it would had made the matter worse so I offered an alternate solution instead.... I did tell W this along with "...but you are right, I should had spoke up and stuck up for you as a husband should for his wife"
W just wanted to drop it and so we did. On the way home we talked and held hands, similar to the trip there. We agreed that when we got home we would look up hotels for our trip and select the 3 we like the most and go from there. Once we pulled in the driveway W and I briefly kissed, W stopped saying she was worried about the dog and just wanted to get in the house.
W wanted to pull out her work uniform for the morning, during this time I walked up from behind and hugged W and she said "I just want to find my uniform...." so I stopped and went about my business.
Once W got things situated, her and I went through the list of hotels and got our final few.
W got ready for bed and as she was doing so I got caught up on the posts in this thread. I said to W "before you go to bed can I talk to you about something?" W replied "If it is quick"
I said "The conversations we had along with the books we just purchased should be a great indication that I do want to start a family with you." Then I went on to say "During the past 7 months I have said to you that 'you don't get married and hope things get better, you make things better then get married. You don't buy a house and hope things get better, you make things better and by a house...I feel the same way about you getting pregnant, that having a baby and hoping things get better is not going to make thing better...we have to work on our marriage first, make things better before starting a family"
W replied "I know" then I said "I hope that you are just as committed than I am to working on our marriage" W said nothing in return...W laid down and turned her back on me...then looked over her should to see if I was still waiting on a response. W had a slight smirk on her face and so I said "I take it you are not going to respond?" W replied "No"
I then said "There are steps we need to take before starting a family." W replied "I know this I am not stupid, I know things have to improve before having children, I am not stupid I know this."
W said "we can talk about this tomorrow" and I replied ( I should not had said this but) "I have heard that from you for the past week and we have yet spoke about it" W then said "Forget, we won't work on anything then, forget everything" I then replied "Is that how you truly feel? then tell me" W just closed her eyes and shook her head... I walked out the room.
I blew it or I am very close to blowing it. When we assume a future and talk about starting a family we do great. When I push R/M talk on her she gets annoyed or won't talk at all.
We were doing great today and then I blew it....
OIN, I highlighted all of the places you pursued her, begged for affection and started R talks. Do you think she thought it was a great day?
She has told you she's trying to work on the M, but if you keep pushing her for more than she can give you right now, you are going to run her off.
Several times during the day, she asked for space or the chance to go to a neutral corner, but you kept pushing her until she snapped.
I took a long time to break this. You're not going to fix this in one day.
Lighten up, enjoy your time with her, give her some space, keep your mouth closed and your ears open, and JUST BREATHE.
I agree with you. I should not had made such comments toward W as she was going shower or attempted to touch her during that time...I should not had initiated any R talk either.
I do not agree that I should NOT be hold my W's hand or putting my arm around her ect... My W welcomes this behavior so why should I stop? If she were to pull away or tell me she did not want me to do these things I would stop, however, W is not objecting and reciprocates.
One thing you might really consider practicing is using "I" statements. That was a biggie for me but it is helpful!
Will do. I just thought,and I was mistaken, that saying WE was productive. I will stop.
Here is concern at this point. W and I have already engaged in unprotected sex, I am not being ignorant in any way, but there is a possibility she may already be...and then again she may not, time will tell.
Just because he's going to have sex with her doesn't mean he HAS to shoot for a new baby.
LMFAO!
I thought that part was funny,
sex, he has to shoot, etc.
LOL!
ok back to the regularly scheduled program .... ;-)
"I am being a happy person. When we talk I am upbeat and excited. I am not longer looking for W to say ILY as affirmation"
Contradicting yourself here.
Point is you've got to know when to stop when it comes to communicating and thinking before acting. Talking too much gets you in trouble time and time again.
Are you still having sex? It's not all that hard to pick-up a box of condoms if you're uncomfortable with her getting pregnant now.
Quote:
Then I started to tell W some terrible things such as "I don't want to have children" (which I did I was just saying to get to her) I would then tell her "I don't want to have children with you" , "You would make a terrible mother", "You have so many issues that our child would not be healthy so I don't want to have children with you"...I said these things to break her down while all along I actually did intend on starting a family with my W but looking back I couldn't see how she would want to start a family with someone like me who said those awful things to her.
Totally unacceptatble behavior for a man who says he loves his wife. I wouldn't expect HER to have remorse for much of anything if he talked to her like that for ten years.
oin: i can't believe those words came out of your mouth. take it from someone who was on the receiving end of those words. it hurts big time.
gucci: thanks. you have restored my faith in men.
"I am being a happy person. When we talk I am upbeat and excited. I am not longer looking for W to say ILY as affirmation"
Contradicting yourself here.
Point is you've got to know when to stop when it comes to communicating and thinking before acting. Talking too much gets you in trouble time and time again.
Are you still having sex? It's not all that hard to pick-up a box of condoms if you're uncomfortable with her getting pregnant now.
I am not quite sure how I am contradicting myself... I once thought I needed to hear the words ILY to know she did, members of this forum have opened my eyes to pick up on other indicators that she does.
We had sex twice (total). The time I mentioned and once again a couple days following. I learned after the second time that W has the expectation that if we had sex it were to be unprotected (something I am not agreeable to). I since then have not initiated anything and neither has she.
Quote:
Then I started to tell W some terrible things such as "I don't want to have children" (which I did I was just saying to get to her) I would then tell her "I don't want to have children with you" , "You would make a terrible mother", "You have so many issues that our child would not be healthy so I don't want to have children with you"...I said these things to break her down while all along I actually did intend on starting a family with my W but looking back I couldn't see how she would want to start a family with someone like me who said those awful things to her.
Totally unacceptatble behavior for a man who says he loves his wife. I wouldn't expect HER to have remorse for much of anything if he talked to her like that for ten years.
oin: i can't believe those words came out of your mouth. take it from someone who was on the receiving end of those words. it hurts big time.
Unfortunately they did. I regret every word.
"I learned after the second time that W has the expectation that if we had sex it were to be unprotected"
Did she actually tell you that? If so, then since you had that convo with her about you feeling uncomfortable at starting a family until you're on better footing, she should understand.
"I am not quite sure how I am contradicting myself..."
It's the word "affirmation" is the issue. You are looking for some kind of affirmation from her - maybe not ILY but actions - to show that she is dedicated to working things out in some way. That goes back to your previous controlling nature. You have to let it go and let her move according to her timetable not yours.
Now if you're uncomfortable with certain things, then say so, but keep your answers short and to the point. You're still in that analysis phase of wondering why she's doing what she's doing. That's fine to a certain extent but overthinking is what gets you into trouble when you communicate too much.
Things go much better when you just go with the flow. Keep that up. There are so many positives in your sitch but sometimes it seems like you don't appreciate them. Take things one step at a time.
Today:
W got up for work this morning, I was already up. W was leaving for work and as she walked out the door leaned back and turned her head/cheek toward me so I could give her a kiss.
W went to work and I went to bed. W came home from work, when she walked in the door I greeted W and she said "hey" in a low mopey tone.
Yesterday W and I agreed to go out and look for a new washer and dryer. We have yet to purchase either since we purchased our home back in Nov. I said to W "I'm going to go grab something to eat then get ready and we'll head out" W replied "If you want" and so I said "If not I can go myself" W said nothing in return.
In the end we chose not to go.
W asked me to hand her the book she purchased yesterday on pregnancy. W started to read the book and shared snippets with me. At one point W passed the book over to me and I educated myself on a a few things. W then fell to sleep.
A little while later W woke up. I told W about interesting things I had read in the book. W then read some of the sections I did and we had some conversation about the topic. This led W to go on webMD and look a an ovulation calendar.
The calendar had broke down my W's cycle and gave her suggested dates where she would be most fertile to increase her chances of getting pregnant. The 21-24 were her best days. W had it in her head that we were going to try on those days. So I said to W "I really do want to start a family with you but I think it is best for now that we use protection." W said "what did you just say?" I repeated "We use use protection" and so W proceeded to hop out of bed and storm out the room.
I went downstairs W came down shortly after, W still very upset. I said "I am not saying that I don't want to start a family with you but as the book outlined there are steps that you need to take to prepare yourself for a pregnancy" I said this to W because she is a vegetarian and eats absolutely no form of meat. The book has information on how to supplement the body for the lack of vitamins ect...I then said "I think it would be best and I would feel more comfortable if we planned for sometime after the fall" W said "Fine we just won't do anything then" I left it at that.
W decided to sit on the back deck and do some planning for our trip, I went out there and joined in. We planned out all the destinations we wanted to visit and on what days. W wanted to go tanning and asked if I wanted to join. Yes, I went tanning. Working nights you don't see the sun as often and I tend to get really pale.
I the way I reminded myself that the spot for the retrouvaille still had to be reserved. I said to W "I still have to reserve the spot for retrouvaille weekend, they just need to speak with you and ask a few questions" W said "OK" then I said "it maybe too late to call now" W said "Yeah, I would feel more comfortable calling during early afternoon tomorrow." I replied "Sounds good, we'll call early afternoon tomorrow"
After we got home W watched a little TV and check her email and started to read ore of her book. W showed me a couple sections she thought were interesting. Soon after W called it a night and went to bed.
==========================
Just thoughts I have and I am only venting here so bare with me
How can W want to have intercourse with the intentions of getting pregnant when beyond that there is not intimacy? and very little affection.
I would have got my sex and used the pull-out method, LOL. I really believe that would have opened up you guys connection, even though it appears to be opening now.
On a responsibility level, you did the right thing.
The effectiveness of the pull-out method is inversely proportional to the importance of avoiding pregnancy. . . . I can't prove this mathematically, but who wants to test it?
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=58843757Joe Rogan explains that pulling out is no match for the Green Beret Sperm.
How can W want to have intercourse with the intentions of getting pregnant when beyond that there is not intimacy? and very little affection.
Because she wants a baby, and thinks it will fill a void in her life.
Puppy
I would have got my sex and used the pull-out method, LOL. I really believe that would have opened up you guys connection, even though it appears to be opening now.
LOL, that's your answer to
everything, Daddy!
Puppy
when beyond that there is not intimacy? and very little affection.
To help understand your situation, intimacy and affection, have these always been a great "need" of yours within your relationship? And has the apparent lack of always been a concern to you? Or have you begun "feeling" this way since the talk of separation and the affair you assumed your wife to be carrying on?
I think it’s fishy to debate another man/couples procreation, yet, I would like to ask regarding this:
I went downstairs W came down shortly after, W still very upset. I said "I am not saying that I don't want to start a family with you but as the book outlined there are steps that you need to take to prepare yourself for a pregnancy" I said this to W because she is a vegetarian and eats absolutely no form of meat. The book has information on how to supplement the body for the lack of vitamins ect...I then said "I think it would be best and I would feel more comfortable if we planned for sometime after the fall" W said "Fine we just won't do anything then" I left it at that.
Do you always beat around the bush about what you want and the way you feel?
Vegetarianism as an excuse not to get pregnant? give me a break. Have you ever considered you may find intimacy with your woman by sharing your concerns and desires with her honestly?
How can W want to have intercourse with the intentions of getting pregnant when beyond that there is not intimacy? and very little affection.
Because she wants a baby, and thinks it will fill a void in her life.
Puppy
The physical act of being physically intimate will allow them to become more intimate. Sort of a "doing by doing".
IE: I need to run, but I usually make 1000 reasons why not to run, today I'm going to run and I know it will get better over time.
Also, he should take advantage of the fact that she wants him in there.
I completely agree with you, DLS, if he uses protection.
Puppy
PuppyDogTails,
If she know he's using protection she's not going to want him in there.
I have heard that there is a form of using testosterone shot that will kill those little soldiers...
when beyond that there is not intimacy? and very little affection.
To help understand your situation, intimacy and affection, have these always been a great "need" of yours within your relationship? And has the apparent lack of always been a concern to you? Or have you begun "feeling" this way since the talk of separation and the affair you assumed your wife to be carrying on?
I think it’s fishy to debate another man/couples procreation, yet, I would like to ask regarding this:
I went downstairs W came down shortly after, W still very upset. I said "I am not saying that I don't want to start a family with you but as the book outlined there are steps that you need to take to prepare yourself for a pregnancy" I said this to W because she is a vegetarian and eats absolutely no form of meat. The book has information on how to supplement the body for the lack of vitamins ect...I then said "I think it would be best and I would feel more comfortable if we planned for sometime after the fall" W said "Fine we just won't do anything then" I left it at that.
Do you always beat around the bush about what you want and the way you feel?
Vegetarianism as an excuse not to get pregnant? give me a break. Have you ever considered you may find intimacy with your woman by sharing your concerns and desires with her honestly?
Intimacy and affection has always been a staple of our R. I would go as far to say maybe we were too intimate and sex became almost a routine and had lost it's emotional baring. Complete 180 from what it is now. I can only imagine that W may feel as if that is all I ever thought she was good for (thinking back she may have said this a time or two). This maybe why she is so withdrawn when it comes to being intimate.
There are two reasons why I think now is not a great time to conceive a child with my W. 1. The current state of our R/M and 2. Her health. I am not saying Vegetarianism as an excuse not to become pregnant but is a contributor to her overall health. Too much soy, not enough vitamins, calcium, zinc and protein, we have an entire book on it.
PuppyDogTails,
If she know he's using protection she's not going to want him in there.
Exactly.
PDT's right. She feels the "void" and wants to fill it with the baby, thinking that everything is going to work itself out when she has a child.
Big no-no. All she's going to do is move further away from you. This happens even in the best of marriages and it's 10 times harder to maintain that closeness with your spouse.
She's going to have to respect your thoughts on this matter.
She's going to have to respect your thoughts on this matter.
From the way she responded to him (after her initial hissy-fit), I'd say that she is respecting them.
Puppy
I think the test will be if for the next time they're intimate, she doesn't make a big deal about him using a condom. Or that she initiates intimacy just for intimacy sake. The reading up on pregnancies so soon after she said she would "try" to reconcile is a little disturbing.
OIN, whats your "definition" of Intimacy?
Thanks,
Steve.
OIN, whats your "definition" of Intimacy?
Thanks,
Steve.
To me it's an emotional bond. I am speaking in general not relating or applying to our current sitch. I will have to think about the things I consider 'intimate' and get back to you.
I agree that part of the reason my W wants to have a child is to fill a void. I believe the void comes from our past. The terrible things I said and my outlook on starting a family then compared the the new outlook I have today. My W has told me quite a few times that "I'm not stupid and have sense enough to know that it is not right to bring a child into an unstable relationship."
I will say this. I have spoke with a good friend of mine. He has an 18mo. and his W is currently 4mo. pregnant with their second child. I've been venting our sitch to him since the start, he has not provided me with any advice but rather an outlet to get away at times. I told him about this whole pregnancy thing and he told me with sincerity that before he and his W had their first child he thought they were heading for divorce. That all they did was argue fight and they just did not seem compatible anymore. Once his W became pregnant and later on gave birth to their son he claims that they're R did a 180 and they have never been as close.
Moving on... TODAY
W got up and got ready for work this morning. I was sleeping I had court in the AM. W said she was running late and asked if I could help prepare her lunch. I gladly did so. W prepared to walk out the door and said to me...
"Don't forget to call the bank today and when your at court stop by the credit union and see if you can sign up and add me to it. Also can you see what it would take to be added onto your insurance" I told W that I would look into it all W then proceeded to give me a hug and kissed me twice. W left for work
I woke up in the AM to get ready for court. W txt me on her lunch break and so a good exchange of txt messages began of just random things that made each other laugh. W's last txt was "I have to get going, break is over, see you when I get home"
I left for court. After court I went to bank, mobile store, back to court, personal business then credit union. I did not return home until about 2-3 hours after W was already home from work. W was sleeping when I did get ho me so I did not bother her at all. I ate and cleaned the house. Couple hours later I go in bedroom W wakes up and asked how long I had been home for I told W "couple hours" she replied "wow what did you do all that time" and I told her about cooking and cleaning and W asked if any food was left over, there was and so I got her a plate.
W and I then talked about our days and what I had got done in all the time I was gone. We then spoke about hotel reservations for our trip.
I called retrouvaille organizer and allowed W to speak with the women so she can survey W and get things finalized. W spoke with women in private. When the call ended W told me a little of what was said/asked (without me asking, I was just going to let it be). W said the women told her "There is 6 sessions after the initial weekend that I hope you can attended because they are extremely beneficial" I then said to W "I think so as well, should be a great time and will get to learn so much" and W replied with a disinterested "yeah."
W and I then decided to sit in the hot tub for a little bit. After a while we got out and went back upstairs to change. W and I became intimate and we began to ML. I told W I had to grab a condom but she said no. I told W I am not comfortable having unprotected sex at this time, W then got very upset and ended all physical contact. I stopped beating around the bush and told W "I do not feel comfortable having unprotected sex at this time. Know that I would love to start a family with you but I don't think right now is the best time"
W gave me the silent treatment and then mumbled out "whatever, it does not matter anymore." I then took it to a level maybe I should not had but did...I said "2 weeks ago you wanted nothing to do with me and today you want to conceive a child? I do not agree with bringing a child into an unstable M" W replied "Do you think that I want to? You think I want to put myself through hell and live in misery? I'm not doing this because I think it would make things better." I replied "I don't. To be honest I do not know what you think"
W carried on with her fit getting very upset and throwing some of the 10 years back in my face. W then said "I told you that we will take the steps necessary. I planned around the weekend in September so we can attend the marriage thing, you think I did this because I just want to waste time and my life away?" I replied "No, I feel that the steps should be taken first and then we can conceive a child not the other way around"
Realizing I was only escalating the matter and her logic and my logic on the pregnancy topic were far from the I just stopped.
After some calming time W then told me she received an email from retrouvaille to complete registration. W said she would still attend. This initiated a R talk that cleared the air on many issues (will need to recall the conversation).
After we were calm and civil.
You have given your wife waaaayyy too much power in your relationship.
You have given your wife waaaayyy too much power in your relationship.
Not quite sure what you mean, please provide an example. My W has her stance on certain situations and how we should progress and I have mine.
She wants to get pregnant now and I don't and I made that clear. I did not give in to her and stuck by my decision.
OIN have the unprotected sex, just pull out when it's time or "be there just for her" ;-)
- stop making this an issue, have the sex, the wife wants to be close to you, I'm assuming you've had sex enough times that you can "control" your part in this process, if not, here's your perfect opportunity to get some practice in
Just do it!
(literally)
OIN have the unprotected sex, just pull out when it's time or "be there just for her" ;-)
- stop making this an issue, have the sex, the wife wants to be close to you, I'm assuming you've had sex enough times that you can "control" your part in this process, if not, here's your perfect opportunity to get some practice in
Just do it!
(literally)
If he wants to bond to his wife its the fastest way to do so. If he's worried about pregnancy, see what he can do from a male perspective that will kill the sperm or render them useless without the obvious condom.
I say he should bang her every night if he can.
How Gucci can read a couple paragraphs and have insight into someone's personality or predict what a spouse will respond with to a particular statement is beyond me, but he is absolutely right about you.
I'd like to ask, though, Why does your wife think this is a stable relationship and you do not?
My W has told me quite a few times that "I'm not stupid and have sense enough to know that it is not right to bring a child into an unstable relationship."
I do not agree with bringing a child into an unstable M
She wants to get pregnant now and I don't
If he wants to bond to his wife its the fastest way to do so.
I disagree. I think he needs to learn how to add more Legumes to their diet.
Start making the best damn no bake peanut butter cookies in all of Erie county. Share her interest and help her to benefit from it. Maybe put a fall crop of brocolli in the back yard. Slow down and learn to enjoy what you have before it slips through your fingers like sand.
"Emotional Bond," he says. Watching the sunset over Lake Ontario as the sail boats come in while sharing his dreams for the future with her. Don't you think she would be listening and excited and want to share them with you. She's trying to. I dont know, maybe thats dumb. Good thing its gonna rain.
Sharing, communicating, making yourself vunerable, and fulfilling another's desires, that seems more intimate than, "Wife and I were getting intimate so I reached for a condom."
If he wants to bond to his wife its the fastest way to do so.
I disagree. I think he needs to learn how to add more Legumes to their diet.
Start making the best damn no bake peanut butter cookies in all of Erie county. Share her interest and help her to benefit from it. Maybe put a fall crop of brocolli in the back yard. Slow down and learn to enjoy what you have before it slips through your fingers like sand.
"Emotional Bond," he says. Watching the sunset over Lake Ontario as the sail boats come in while sharing his dreams for the future with her. Don't you think she would be listening and excited and want to share them with you. She's trying to. I dont know, maybe thats dumb. Good thing its gonna rain.
Sharing, communicating, making yourself vunerable, and fulfilling another's desires, that seems more intimate than, "Wife and I were getting intimate so I reached for a condom."
Well the way I look at it, is she cheated him and has been being an a$$hole to the guy for 7 months now. If opening them legs is indicative of her "opening up" ( which it is ), then he needs to legs to open more often if he wants to get deep into the heart of the matter.
Sex and affection was the same way that a strong love addiction was created to the OM, I believe a Husband or wife for that matter should have access to the same tools.
Less talking, more doing. Get your wife in the sack as much as you can OIN.
How Gucci can read a couple paragraphs and have insight into someone's personality or predict what a spouse will respond with to a particular statement is beyond me, but he is absolutely right about you.
I'd like to ask, though, Why does your wife think this is a stable relationship and you do not?
My W has told me quite a few times that "I'm not stupid and have sense enough to know that it is not right to bring a child into an unstable relationship."
I do not agree with bringing a child into an unstable M
She wants to get pregnant now and I don't
Sorry Steve, I don't follow you.
My W does not like to talk about our R and so I never established what makes her think we are stable enough to have a child. I don't think we are because 2 weeks ago my W was screaming divorce at me and saying "I can't wait to change my name back."
I just remembered a comment W said to me last night
"Do you think I am here to waste my life and sit around and count days?"
But for the past 7 months that is exactly what she told me she was doing "counting down the days"
I say he should bang her every night if he can.
LOL!
If he wants to bond to his wife its the fastest way to do so.
I disagree. I think he needs to learn how to add more Legumes to their diet.
Start making the best damn no bake peanut butter cookies in all of Erie county. Share her interest and help her to benefit from it. Maybe put a fall crop of brocolli in the back yard. Slow down and learn to enjoy what you have before it slips through your fingers like sand.
"Emotional Bond," he says. Watching the sunset over Lake Ontario as the sail boats come in while sharing his dreams for the future with her. Don't you think she would be listening and excited and want to share them with you. She's trying to. I dont know, maybe thats dumb. Good thing its gonna rain.
Sharing, communicating, making yourself vunerable, and fulfilling another's desires, that seems more intimate than, "Wife and I were getting intimate so I reached for a condom."
Steve, we planted a pumpkin patch. W usually go to the outer harbor to watch the sunset. Trust that I do these things you suggest.
It is raining her at the moment just had to jump up and close all the windows....where you from anyway?
I disagree. I think he needs to learn how to add more Legumes to their diet.
LMFAO!!!
Legumes, the new divorce busting method!
How Gucci can read a couple paragraphs and have insight into someone's personality or predict what a spouse will respond with to a particular statement is beyond me, but he is absolutely right about you.
I'd like to ask, though, Why does your wife think this is a stable relationship and you do not?
My W has told me quite a few times that "I'm not stupid and have sense enough to know that it is not right to bring a child into an unstable relationship."
I do not agree with bringing a child into an unstable M
She wants to get pregnant now and I don't
Sorry Steve, I don't follow you.
My W does not like to talk about our R and so I never established what makes her think we are stable enough to have a child. I don't think we are because 2 weeks ago my W was screaming divorce at me and saying "I can't wait to change my name back."
I just remembered a comment W said to me last night
"Do you think I am here to waste my life and sit around and count days?"
But for the past 7 months that is exactly what she told me she was doing "counting down the days"
Just remember you are trying to apply your regular male logic to your wife's emotions, that doesn't work, you will always be scratching your head thinking "HUH?! WTF?!"
OIN have the unprotected sex, just pull out when it's time or "be there just for her" ;-)
- stop making this an issue, have the sex, the wife wants to be close to you, I'm assuming you've had sex enough times that you can "control" your part in this process, if not, here's your perfect opportunity to get some practice in
Just do it!
(literally)
If he wants to bond to his wife its the fastest way to do so. If he's worried about pregnancy, see what he can do from a male perspective that will kill the sperm or render them useless without the obvious condom.
I say he should bang her every night if he can.
This may be the two most irresponsible things I've ever seen either one of you post on this forum.
Wow.
Puppy
Well the way I look at it, is she cheated him and has been being an a$$hole to the guy for 7 months now. If opening them legs is indicative of her "opening up" ( which it is ), then he needs to legs to open more often if he wants to get deep into the heart of the matter.
This is disgusting, direspectful (to OIN and to his wife), and irresponsible.
I, for one, am done here.
Puppy
Puppy,
It can be very fun. Passion is usually not planned, nor responsible. As long as OIN ensures he is protected in some way, then bang away.
I am not trying to make fun or disrepect OIN or his wife. Many of us have WAW's that act like his, and I cannot defend the behavior they have.
Have a good weekend everybody.
I think this thread has strayed away from the main focus. I am here to get advice to achieve full reconciliation. My W and I are two weeks into the process. We are set to attend Retrouvallie in September.
You probably will make it to full reconciliation too. You should turn out better than you started.
OIN have the unprotected sex, just pull out when it's time or "be there just for her" ;-)
- stop making this an issue, have the sex, the wife wants to be close to you, I'm assuming you've had sex enough times that you can "control" your part in this process, if not, here's your perfect opportunity to get some practice in
Just do it!
(literally)
If he wants to bond to his wife its the fastest way to do so. If he's worried about pregnancy, see what he can do from a male perspective that will kill the sperm or render them useless without the obvious condom.
I say he should bang her every night if he can.
This may be the two most irresponsible things I've ever seen either one of you post on this forum.
Wow.
Puppy
Puppy, like it or not,
sex is an issue that these people are dealing with,
we're not getting graphic here but the point is, sex is an issue, it's always going to be an issue.
So you can either acknowledge the big grey 2000lb elephant in the room holding the "sex" sign or you can ignore it.
The fact that OIN's wife wants to have sex with him and have a kid with him, suggests in part that he has built some attraction between him and his wife, let's acknowledge that.
She wants sex, we can assume her motives are either to have sex just to have a baby or to have sex because she wants to have sex with OIN or both but we can't mind read so we don't know what her motives are.
If he continues to throw up roadblocks everytime she wants sex, she's eventually going to associate in her mind OIN and him not wanting to have sex with her, it will happen.
All I'm saying is that when he gets the opportunity to have sex with his wife and she clearly wants to have sex with him, do it. This will make her happy, they are on the path to reconciliation, it makes her happy to have sex with him, she is thinking of having kids, she has picked OIN as her mate, she wants to have kids with him, she has decided that he is the kind of man she wants to have children with, she wants her children to carry his genes as well as hers. Think of all the decisions that are going on behind the scenes here.
There is an SSM thread on this site that I rarely check out but I'm guessing those people would kill to switch spots with OIN, his wife wants sex with him.
just my 0.02 cents,
i'm not here to offend anyone,
if the discussion of sex between a married couple is taboo/off limits, well then I know to keep my comments to myself on this thread when it pertains to sex.
I think this thread has strayed away from the main focus. I am here to get advice to achieve full reconciliation.
ok.
Stop being such a negative nancy.
Robx,
Thank you for that insight. I feel my W's intents of sex is to have children and 'deal with the rest as it comes' as she would put it.
So far today, W came home from work. Me and the dog were hanging out in the garage. W joined us and asked we were in the garage I told her "To watch the rain" I asked W how her day was and W went on to talk about her annoying work day.
I had lunch cooking and just finished up as we walked back in the house. W changed and we both sat down and ate. W kept telling me about this 'pain' she is getting in her side and she does not know what it is. She said it could be due to the way her new uniform pants sit on her hip or could be due to 'other reasons'...I don't discard the other reason but two things
1. Way too soon to tell. I know every woman is different but she said she had this 'pain' for a few days now which would had been only 1 day after the last time we had unprotected sex and only 2 days since her last cycle. I am not saying it is not possible but the chances are very slim.
2. I think W wants to get pregnant so much she is psyching her self into thinking she maybe.
I don't want to throw up 'roadblocks' but it seems to me W has the expectation that each time we have sex it would be to try to conceive. So even if I had tried other 'methods' (as I have done so many times in the past) I think she would get upset and no longer would want to engage in sex.
I heard they had a testosterone shot which would render your sperm useless while you where on it. Side benefit is going to be obviously masculinization, and ability to recover better from a workout and increased feelings of well being.
Find out for yourself if there is a male birth control method which does not involve condoms or something obvious.
Oh if you do this, don't tell her.
Oh if you do this, don't tell her.
Yeah, let's base the rebirth of the relationship on deception.
Our country lie to protect national security.
OIN is going to do something for himself, so he can have sex with his wife.
I heard they had a testosterone shot which would render your sperm useless while you where on it. Side benefit is going to be obviously masculinization, and ability to recover better from a workout and increased feelings of well being.
Find out for yourself if there is a male birth control method which does not involve condoms or something obvious.
Oh if you do this, don't tell her.
DLS,
You said at least 4-5 times now. I appreciate the suggestion but I am not doing it.
Oh, have a good weekend. Your situation is improving for the better and I'm sure others will become inspired through your persistence.
She wants sex, we can assume her motives are either to have sex just to have a baby or to have sex because she wants to have sex with OIN or both but we can't mind read so we don't know what her motives are.
Considering that she huffs off and ends things every time he's willing to have sex but wants to wear a condom, I'm pretty sure we can accurately assess her motives.
OIN,
She could have pain around ovulation, that is not unusual. I don't know if a woman could really feel the difference between a fertilized and an unfertilized egg. I think that only 1-2 days after conception would be too early to feel a pain relating to conception. However, if a fertilized egg becomes attached in the fallopian tube (usually several weeks into a pregnancy), then that can cause severe pain and can lead to serious consequences, such as a ruptured tube. The first unmistakeable symptoms that I experienced with pregnancy were tender breasts and a need for an afternoon nap.
Personally, I find the idea of planning pregnancy somewhat humorous. But then I went through several years of infertility before I became pregnant. In my world view children come when they come, and "the best laid plans of mice and men go oft astray". That said, I think that you should add her to your insurance immediately to be sure that if she did become pregnant earlier than anticipated that she will be covered by the health insurance. As I said above, there are things that can go wrong in pregnancy, and she needs coverage from the date of conception. You will have 9 months to work on the marriage even if she were to conceive now, and you can continue working on the marriage after a child is born too. There is no reason that you can't work on the marriage and be pregnant simultaneously. I think you will be surprised how much progress you can make in the seven weeks of the Retrouvaille program. She is cooperating with you and giving you what you want.
OIN,
She could have pain around ovulation, that is not unusual. I don't know if a woman could really feel the difference between a fertilized and an unfertilized egg. I think that only 1-2 days after conception would be too early to feel a pain relating to conception. However, if a fertilized egg becomes attached in the fallopian tube (usually several weeks into a pregnancy), then that can cause severe pain and can lead to serious consequences, such as a ruptured tube. The first unmistakeable symptoms that I experienced with pregnancy were tender breasts and a need for an afternoon nap.
Personally, I find the idea of planning pregnancy somewhat humorous. But then I went through several years of infertility before I became pregnant. In my world view children come when they come, and "the best laid plans of mice and men go oft astray". That said, I think that you should add her to your insurance immediately to be sure that if she did become pregnant earlier than anticipated that she will be covered by the health insurance. As I said above, there are things that can go wrong in pregnancy, and she needs coverage from the date of conception. You will have 9 months to work on the marriage even if she were to conceive now, and you can continue working on the marriage after a child is born too. There is no reason that you can't work on the marriage and be pregnant simultaneously. I think you will be surprised how much progress you can make in the seven weeks of the Retrouvaille program. She is cooperating with you and giving you what you want.
Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate your perspective on our sitch. I have thought about this too, even if W were to be pregnant we would still be able to work on our marriage as we prepare for the birth of our child. I also see how a pregnancy at this time could potentially tear us apart as well.
As for the remainder of yesterday (Friday):
W pretty much slept all day. W said he stomach hurt too bad to do the things we had planned (a burning sensation as she described it).
I took the opportunity to finally start cleaning the basement.
Not much interaction up till W woke up around 10PM. At that time I was laying in bed beside her figuring out my work calendar to see what days I need to request off for our trip. Once W woke up she told suggested a few events I add to the calendar.
W had checked her phone and see she had a missed call from a female co-worker who W had not talked to over the phone or via txt since OM was in the picture (or in my W's head that is).
During the 15 min W was up so she could get ready for bed she had a slight attitude, being a little 'short' with me...not sure what that was all about but could have something to do with the following
I told W about how I cleaned out some of the basement and finally got around to going through our clothes. I told her how I am doing loads of laundry and after we can go through our clothes and determine what we want and don't want. W made the comment "Throw them all out, nothing fits me anymore I'm too big" I said (rather than validating I guess) "You have a lot of nice clothes give them a try before we toss them" W then says "Well that's the reality of it" and after this exchange she had what I would consider a terrible attitude.
W asked if I could do a huge favor for her and iron her work pants, I told her that it would not be a problem. Before I walked out the room W asked if I could cover her up and so I did, then gave W a kiss and told her goodnight (yes I know it sounds juvenile almost 'father daughter-ish' but not the way it was intended).
W then went to sleep.
Hey OIN, I see what you are doing. It's looking like you are staying on a path of mutual respect, no manipulations ( ie you can sex me but I want a baby ), and positive and open communications. I can't say I don't admire this.
In the real world you will let them get away with a few, as well as they will do you.
Its a tough balance that each of us have to decide what we are comfortable with.
I will have a detailed update later tonight or maybe sometime tomorrow.
W had asked me to take of work last night to spent the night with her. She ended up feeling ill and slept all night...
This morning W called off work. W 'cuddled' up with me throughout the night. Morning went pretty well.
W and I ML during the afternoon. W nearly pleaded with me to 'go all the way' sort of speak. I will quote my W "Give me ALL of you. Things will be better I promise." I told W "Not now, let's make them better first" I probably should not have said anything and sort of odd to carry on such a conversation while ML but I did not to give W a false expectation. After W seemed to be withdrawn again not really talking or interacting with me. W asked if I wanted to go in the hot tub and so we did.
Later on W and I laid in bed watching a movie holding hands...just being close to one another.
I had to go to work, W said "now who is going to make me breakfast?" in a mopey tone. I kissed W on head and left for work.
I have to ask.
Do you do all the cooking for her or something? There are times she sounds like a little kid and that if you don't prepare something for her to eat, she'll starve to death.
Does she ever cook for you?
OIN, I hate to sound so down when you are dealing with so much right now. You need to check the bathroom garbage for femine products. I'm afraid your wife is late and is afraid she is pregnant already.
DISCLAIMER- Ok, don't take this the wrong way and I am probably completely wrong. No disrespect intended.
But is it possible that the wife is pregnant by OM, and now hurriedly trying to get OIN to "appear" to be the father due to timing?
I know it is a terrible thought, but stranger things have happened.
I have to ask.
Do you do all the cooking for her or something? There are times she sounds like a little kid and that if you don't prepare something for her to eat, she'll starve to death.
Does she ever cook for you?
No I don't do all the cooking for her and she does prepare her own meals if I don't do it first. We had this conversation many threads ago. It is a 180 for me that I plan on doing. I am usually up throughout the night due to my work schedule and since I am up I make her some quick breakfast and pack her lunch. On the nights I do have work she does it herself.
OIN, I hate to sound so down when you are dealing with so much right now. You need to check the bathroom garbage for femine products. I'm afraid your wife is late and is afraid she is pregnant already.
The first time W and I ML after 7mo of no intimacy she was just ending her cycle. We won't know if W is late until another 2 weeks.
DISCLAIMER- Ok, don't take this the wrong way and I am probably completely wrong. No disrespect intended.
But is it possible that the wife is pregnant by OM, and now hurriedly trying to get OIN to "appear" to be the father due to timing?
I know it is a terrible thought, but stranger things have happened.
After our sitch I would never discard anything but I will this. W has had her regular cycles since the start of our sitch. I was with her nearly every time she purchased her feminine products and always seen the wrappers in the thrash during that time.
While I am not an expert on OIN's wife, I have followed the saga for a long time now. Those who have joined recently may not be aware that she had an EA with someone at work and when he and his wife became aware that she was emotionally involved, the OM ended it. There has never been any evidence that her relationship with OM was physical.
Thing have been getting a lot better for us. W has started to initiate contact ex: grabbing my hand and holding it, giving me a hug and kiss as she leaves for work or returns home from work. W seems to be slowly opening up to me and all around she appears to be happier. Dare I say even more happy than she had been in several years ( and we just begun to reconcile).
I find validating and letting W be herself helps a lot (causes less conflict). Any near arguments we had are ended quickly with validation or simply realizing that it is not worth picking a fight and nothing good could come out of it.
W explained to me that she wants to raise a "big happy healthy family" with me. W said that her dream was always for us to have children while we were young and I get a sense that she may feel as if we lost out on time due to our sitch.
W is slowly coming around and opening up more and more with each new day. At times I found it beneficial to just not beat around the bush and express things to W and as a result we were better off after....W is very hesitant to full open up in fear that I will hurt her again (something she has said often).
So has she talked to the people at Retrouvaille yet? On the surface it seems good, but beware to not let the counseling get ignored.
OIN,
I agree with MrBond.
Keep DBing and don't let your guard down yet.
I am optimistic for you.
So has she talked to the people at Retrouvaille yet? On the surface it seems good, but beware to not let the counseling get ignored.
We are going. We don't necessarily talk about it other than we are going. W has requested these days off and its marked on calendar.
OIN,
Keep up the good work. Stories like your's are inspiring.
I have been following this story for some time. Any updates?
Sorry for not keeping everyone up-to-date. I am sure it would be in my benefit to continue to post but the forum started to consume me so I took a break.
We have been moving along in the right direction. My W and I have got along very well and at the very least we have maintained a very civil relationship.
We did have a rocky day which let to a slight argument due to conflict of interest. We were able to resolve the disagreement and move on from it.
W and I continue to talk about starting a family. W now understands my point of view on the matter and knows it will not be 'right away' and accepts that.
We are now officially registered for Retrouvaille. W actually made out the check and mailed in the envelope.
W has been initiating a lot of contact (hugs, kisses, holding hands)
Some highlights during the past week:
- W and I sit on the back porch, and W grabs my hand. Our dog walks over and licks our hands and W says "See, she just gave us her approval, even she knows it was meant to be"
- W and I were at W's family gathering. W was talking to FIL just before W took FIL new car for a test drive. FIL said to W "Just watch out for cops" and W replied "Where is mine?" (meaning cop, referring to me).
- While ML W says "ILY so much"
- W has been randomly saying ILY
We have the funds for our trip in Oct. and have pretty much paid for the whole trip. W is very excited and so am I. I have a couple surprises I am planning for W.
At the moment it is hard to recall and narrate our interactions in the past week but I will try to be more consistent in my updates.
I sometimes think about how bad our sitch once was. The terrible things W would say that convinced me that there was absolutely no hope for our R/M and now we lay in bed every night holding one another. I am not the best at applying method preached on the forum and in DB books but I followed along enough to get to this point and I am happy I never gave up when all seemed hopeless.
OIN, this is a fantastic update. I pray things keep moving the way you describe.
I read the last five pages or so all at once, and seeing some of the advice I was getting a little worried, but you've done a good job of sticking to your guns, OIN. Way to go!
Just a thought, but you said your friend told you that having a baby helped turn his marriage around. Could your wife have been getting advice like that, too?
Whatever the reason, I'm glad you didn't fall into the trap of having unprotected sex with a woman who wants to get pregnant for the wrong reasons, and trusting in your ability to "pull out" or take some shot or supplement. If there were a male birth control method that involved occasional injections but no condoms, I'd jump on it, but to my knowledge there's no male equivalent to "the Pill" that has been shown to be effective in clinical testing. We should all beware the power of wishful thinking. And even if it worked, you'd end up regretting the shortcut. Doing the work, as you're doing, will take longer, but it might really work.
OIN - I've read your story. This is an incredible inspiration for those of us who were the LBS with a W that had an EA. Thank you so much.
Yes an inspiration..
BUT do you understand the dynamics of the exact thing that turned HER around? Do you know when that moment came? Or do you actually believe it was his "hanging in there and not giving up" was what did it? (you are WRONG if you believe that)
It was when he told her AND showed her that he FINALLY understood that no matter what he did that he now realized that she did NOT want to stay married and would never love him again and that he was going to STOP trying to show her how sorry he was and he was going to stop trying to win her back....(and THEN he followed through on that)
THAT was HER turning point. It was when he told her he was giving up winning her back... She THEN wrote him the letter and then told him she wanted to try..
Things between W and I have been steady, We had a few rocky days since my last post. These few days consisted of arguments that stemmed from me expecting to much too soon. In the end we both agreed to stop the argument and move forward.
Retrouvaille should be a tremendous help for us (1 month to go).
There have been moments where W and I openly talk about the past and we'd validate each others feelings.
One thing my W has said constantly to me is "I have to trust you again, you hurt me and it will take time, I use to always feel pressured to do things and now I want to do this on my own terms."
---------------
As gucci mentioned, it is true for months I was stubborn and took the "be patient and wait it out" route. Then I slowly convinced myself that indeed it was "too little too late" and even thought I was a major contributor to our falling apart I did not want to life like that any longer and so I took the plunge and followed the advice of many. I agreed with W for once and it drastically turned our sitch around.
I'm happy for you OIN. Keep up the good work.
I'm no expert and offer no advice, but your posts are an inspiration.
I'm thankful for this website and ALL the advice that has come freely. Don't know what I could do without all this experience.
OIN hasn't posted in two weeks. I guess he must be having satisfaction within his life and his relationship at the current. Bringing to top, I wanted to hear his comment.
Hey all. I planned on making a post with some updates. Wife and I are getting a long quite well BUT there is at times some tension between us.... Allow me to explain
wife and I would have a great day. When we have such days I feel even more confident in our sitch. Then our next interaction I expect it to go even better but then it seems like we took a step back rather than build on our previous interactions. This does cause tension but maybe only because I allow it to. I think I expect too much too soon. I know we are on wife's time but some times I think we are farther along then we actually are.
I admit I have slipped up a few times prompting wife to become defensive.
Wife has said things such as
- I am waitimg to see if you actually changed
- I dont want to make myself vulnerable and get hurt again, I have to see that you changed and know that I can trust you
There are many things my w won't talk about or feelings she won't express due to she feels it will make her vulnerable... I really hope retrouvaille helps.
In some aspects working toward reconcile has been tough. My w has,changed in some ways from the person I remember her being. so I am getting aquanted with these changes in her. I am not sure if this is due to w not fully opening herself up to me or if this is truly the new her. W has said MUCH of what she did and said in the past she felt like she was forced.
I am trying to stay focused and could certainly use some advise at this point from those who have reconciled. Tips, suggestions or what to expect....
Also I been feeling upset in way (cant think of the word I am looking for).....w's actions in the those 7 mo has aused me to hold some grudge toward her....how do I over come?
Yes, it's very hard to reconcile if no one gives you both direction. How long until Retrouvaille? I am sure that it will help. Just keep doing your best.
Hey all. I planned on making a post with some updates. Wife and I are getting a long quite well BUT there is at times some tension between us.... Allow me to explain
wife and I would have a great day. When we have such days I feel even more confident in our sitch. Then our next interaction I expect it to go even better but then it seems like we took a step back rather than build on our previous interactions. This does cause tension but maybe only because I allow it to. I think I expect too much too soon. I know we are on wife's time but some times I think we are farther along then we actually are.
I admit I have slipped up a few times prompting wife to become defensive.
Wife has said things such as
- I am waitimg to see if you actually changed
- I dont want to make myself vulnerable and get hurt again, I have to see that you changed and know that I can trust you
There are many things my w won't talk about or feelings she won't express due to she feels it will make her vulnerable... I really hope retrouvaille helps.
In some aspects working toward reconcile has been tough. My w has,changed in some ways from the person I remember her being. so I am getting aquanted with these changes in her. I am not sure if this is due to w not fully opening herself up to me or if this is truly the new her. W has said MUCH of what she did and said in the past she felt like she was forced.
I am trying to stay focused and could certainly use some advise at this point from those who have reconciled. Tips, suggestions or what to expect....
Also I been feeling upset in way (cant think of the word I am looking for).....w's actions in the those 7 mo has aused me to hold some grudge toward her....how do I over come?
OfficerInNeed,
Consider this, as we build up experiences, we will GROW. We will grow into a direction in which we are spending our time and focus. So its not really about someone "changing back", not sure if that could happen.
Determine how they are growing and what their priorities are and if you can support it.
It sounds like you are on a better path.
W and I just completed our Retrouvaille weekend and what a tremendous POSITIVE it was! For the first time since our sitch began my W began to open up to me.
My W said it was the first time in many years where she spoke to me and felt "understood" and "heard."
This weekend has really helped my W see our marriage in a new perspective and she feels more optimistic about our future together.
There were a few times where my W did cry in the privacy of our room after holding back her tears during the presentation. My W said she could relate so much to what a presenter was saying. She honestly thought she was going crazy because no one understood how she felt but it was a sense of relief for her to hear someone else shared the same feelings.
My W seems more excited, has been playful and "loveable" toward me since our Retrouvaille this weekend.
We both gained a level of understanding of each others hurt and lack of trust toward one another and what we need to do to rebuild that trust.
We are not fully reconciled but we are heading down the right path. W even TM FIL to tell him about our weekend to save our marriage. FIL replied with "I'm proud of you guys."
Congratulations OIN. Sounds like things are on the right track.
What did you think of Retrouvaille? What did you get out of it?
Going into Retrouvallie I did not know what to expect or if it would even have any positive impact on my W and her views on our marriage.
We learned the steps to take so we could rebuild trust and learn to forgiveness.
The weekend was very informative and after attending, I highly recommend Retrouvaille to any couple considering divorce or separation or those couples who maybe r=trying to reconcile but don't know where to start.
Happy to hear you had a good weekend! I am so glad that she opened up to you. It always warms my heart when people come home with positive results. Now stick with the program and do the homework and go to the post sessions. The weekend is just the start of the process.
OIN,
First of all, I'm very sorry for this revelation and for your pain right now. I have no advice on how to process that, so I won't try, but....
Are you and W attending the Retrouvaille follow up sessions? I think the program will continue to be a HUGE resource for you, if you will use it to it's fullest.
Were any of your presenter couples overcoming infidelity or sex addictions, etc? I know two of mine were. Call on those people for support. It is what they are there for. You will BOTH need in-person guidance to move through this next phase of your R and the healing and forgiveness necessary to move forward in the M.
Don't try to go it alone right now. Lean on your local Retrouvaille sponsors and let them support you with prayer, friendship and guidance.
(((HUGS))) and prayers from me, too.
-silverado
WOW! You and your W were M a day after me and mine (10/03/09). I'm going to go back and read your story.