Ever think this DB stuff encourages us to settle (even if it is a misinterpretation)? I so cannot believe I have tolerated the sh*t I have for a year and a half. I have no regrets and it is good that I waited but seriously, most of us deserve sooo much better.
alive, I don't know how things will shake out for me, but it appears the DB approach seems to have helped some people. Even if it doesn't work, though, I think the advice is good ... I, like, you am right now wondering (as I reminisce) how I could have been so bend-over-backwards willing-to-please when it wasn't being reciprocated. The recommendations that you be strong and take care of yourself first are good ones, I believe.
Oh, I agree and one way or the other, whether you divorce right away or wait, it hurts and takes time to heal. I am glad I focused on myself. The tough part is that the better I've done for myself, the more he paid attention and tried to work his way back in; but not in as a husband, just in enough for me to take the crumbs and refrain from divorcing.
I suppose it's just that I can't believe I have questioned whether I should settle for this just to stay married. I mean, ya, I avoided divorce, I stayed married, could probably stay married for the rest of my life. But my husband is gone and he just throws me crumbs when he sees me reaching my breaking point.
The goal has to be more than just staying married.
The one thing about DB is that all of the emphasis and statistics (especially about how scr*wed women end up being) make it really scary and depressing to draw a line in the sand. I think often of the negative comments here about how the wives "will see" when they end up with no money and no man wants them because they have kids etc.
So for the left behind women, it is an extra hurdle to stop fearing and demand better.
I don't know if that makes sense. I don't regret the time I've spent here and trying to save my marriage and my sanity. I just think that sometimes it can be paralyzing to fear divorcing (to the extent that I have).
i know how you feel.
it feels like a runaway train and you are unable to stop it.
i am hurting so much right now.
we just physically separated and i feel like an addict in need of a hit.
i can't sit still and i can't think straight.
i do feel paralyzed by the fear of divorce.
it's funny.
i have no kids. i am able to support myself.
i have a nicely furnished apartment with things i bought with my own money - i have received no money from our separation agreement yet.
i miss the companionship
my sitch is very weird.
when h dropped the d-bomb, i left our bedroom.
i figure i'd give him space. most LBS would have kicked the WAS out. i didn't.
most WAS drop the d-bomb and really just want to walk away.
my h? didn't just walk away. h wanted to walk away with the lion share of our assets.
h tried to make up his own rules for dividing the household goods - so that he could walk away with the best of what we had.
i was too tired to fight over dishes, cutlery, and the toaster.
those things didn't matter to me.
they were material things that did not contribute to my happiness.
it almost seems like i'm the WAS.
i don't know what h is thinking.
but i wish i could tell him how hurt and betrayed i feel.
i've tried to behave respectfully throughout my journey so far.
i know some might be thinking that i was a doormat but it got to a point where i was almost arguing with a child.
h threw temper tantrums when he didn't get his way.
i can't talk to a person who is acting that way. i'd never get through to him.
i stayed calm and walked away with what i needed. nothing more.
i don't want to look back and have regrets or embarrassing moments where i say "i was so stupid, i shouldn't have said or did that. what was i thinking?"
i don't mean to hijack this thread.
but it just triggered something in me.
i'm skeptical about db-ing. i don't think it's about saving a marriage. it's about saving yourself from being paralyzed by fear.
i'm not afraid. i just want to know how to really save my marriage.
dumped.
You're not hijacking!
The good news is you will be fine.
I don't know how long it has been for you but it has been a long road for me.
Every situation is weird and somehow similar to others.
Sorry to say but with no kids and being self-sufficient, you are in a great position to cut your losses. At least to take care of you and let him deal with his sh*t.
Many LBS do not kick out WAS. I can't even tell you what I've tolerated. It would be humiliating if I didn't know the hows and whys...
I was a mess last year, I am ok now. It can be done.
Oh and when I say a mess, I couldn't eat or sleep, was having panic attacks.
I suspect your situation is relatively fresh.
You may save your marriage but you can afford to absolutely focus on you and cut the fear.
Mine and my kids' survival was/is in jeopardy, that was the killer. You will be okay.
Hi a&k, good to see you around!!
So, what is the situation now? I got confused with your posts?
Settling? Well I guess you can make the DB aadvice what you want. Some people may actually USE DB advice to settle without feeling they give up parts of themselves. For others DB advice means find themselves and rise through all the BS and accept the outcome. The advice IMO in general is solid, what you do with it, depends on you.
Hope all is well,
K
Hi A&K,
Good to hear from you. I, like Kalni, am not completely caught up on where you are now. What are you settling for? Are you and H back in the same place?
-T
Don't settle for nothing. All of us are here because our marriage was not fulfilling emotionally, physically or spiritually. (at least for one side)We ALL deserve better than that! Is your spouse the one that can be the everything you need? Can you be that person for them? I guess you may never know. Take the time and figure out what the opposite sex needs. Learn how to be able to sustain a long-term relationship and also figure out what you need to be happy. It isn't your spouse I'll tell you that.
Don't settle for nothing. Is your spouse the one that can be the everything you need?
Be careful tjack; this sounds more like co-dependency than settling. No S is perfect, so in some sense, we all "settle". I am not suggesting to put up with infedelity or abuse, but I just wanted to point out that one can go overboard in "not settling".
By the way, I really doubt this is the case with you, A&K, or 95% of this board. Many of us are dealing with very real issues.
I get your point tristan and I agree that there is no one that is perfect in every way. Yes we all do settle because there is no such thing as perfect, right? in my situation there were some very real issues that we would have never been able to solve without this happening. I will never condone my wife's affair, but it gave me the time and space to really find out who i am and what i need in life. Same thing for her. Now as we are moving towards each other again, we are learning what the other need's to be "fulfilled in marriage". Many of these things I already knew, but it was lived in our lives like "well I know you need this, but your not giving me that". Now it is more of a self-less love because of this experience. If we make it back to a point where we are as good as we can possibly be, and it still feels that their is more out there, then we will get Divorced. We decided if that we give each other our best and it's not enough, then why stay in a marriage like that?
i went through the stage where i couldn't eat, sleep, or think.
i still have panic attacks.
d-bomb was dropped in jan 2010.
i did all the things i wasn't supposed to do - beg, cry, etc.
h wasn't sure at first but said it was a likely option.
he asked for space, i gave him space.
during that time, he consulted with his bf (male), parents, and a crisis counsellor.
when he asked for space, i went home to see family for a week.
i came back and he said we had no choice but to d.
at that moment, i was too numb to cry, beg, or plead.
i just agreed.
normally, the WAS gets kicked out of the master bedroom.
i said i'd move out of the bedroom. i think my self-esteem was so shattered that i felt i didn't deserve to stay in the bedroom.
i confined myself to a small guest bedroom and bathroom.
i started GAL.
we put our home up for sale in feb and it sold in march.
we both moved out in april
i've had NC with h since mid-april and the loneliness is creeping in.
we are both in a city with no family.
the only family we had was each other.
our marriage had its ups and downs but we never fought the way most d-bound couples do.
i don't remember a single time where we constantly fought or yelled.
it was something we never did. we would talk about issues as they came up.
many hurtful things have been said by h.
i know the advice here is to not believe in 100% of what you hear and only 50% of what you see.
the d-process really brings out the ugly in most people.
and it beats you down. which is probably why i feel like settling or giving up.
you start seeing a side of h that you never saw before.
h threw temper tantrums like a child when it came to dividing the furniture.
down to the point where he wouldn't even leave me with a set of pillows. six pillows in the house, he left me with 1.
i didn't fight it. it is not my nature to be fighting over silly things. it's not because i am a doormat. but because i know that material things wouldn't make me happy. would it matter if i got everything? no. i lost the most dear thing to me. and that was my h. my best friend.
after he moved out, i went back to the house to pack up my remaining belongings. he had left two pillows behind.
i texted him to ask if he had forgot it.
he said no. i figure you'd want a set.
like i said, we never fought the way most d-bound couples do. there was never any constant fighting. and i learned that when h hurled hurtful things at me, it was he felt the d law was being unfair to him. he had never said things like that to me during our marriage.
i was out with friends the other night, and they were talking about various issues they had with their h. and i just suddenly blurted out that i don't have issues like that between my h and m. and look where i ended up?
friends are wondering why we are still talking and during our last month together, we would occasionally do nice things for one another. we were not the typical d couple.
i'm really hurting because the process is testing my morals.
forcing me to fight over our possessions so i don't walk away with nothing.
when we disagree over the possessions, it feels like i'm losing hope in saving my m.
am i settling?
i've kept my composure throughout the entire ordeal.
i don't want to look back and have any regrets on how i behaved or things i've said. i know that once things have been said, you can't take it back.
i'm not trying to be a martyr. my goal is to make sure i am happy with who i am and handle this in a mature and respectable way.
but i want my h to FIL with me again. at least, my bf back.
sorry for hijacking the thread. i started writing. and couldn't stop.
i just want to be heard. i haven't had a serious discussion with h about how i feel about the whole thing yet because we hadn't had time to cool off yet - we just physically separated.
i want some sound advice. i get enough bad advice from friends already.
i know it's easy to walk away because no children are involved. but so what? it doesn't it any easier.
dumped.
tjack,
how did you get to that realization point?
i have no reason to suspect my h is having an A.
i never have suspected during our marriage and there is no evidence that he is now.
but he's being heavily influenced by his parents. the control that his parents have over him at his age, is unbelievable.
dumped.
About settling- I think Divorce BUSTING helps to buy time to either stall or stop the divorce while simultaneously getting us to improve ourselves so that we can be desirable people to have a relationship with.
I see this as a process to get our WASs to want us again. Once they do, then we can raise the ante as to what we need from them as well. And all of us have seen ways that our marriages could be better, so we can start to work on getting that marriage once the WAS is back.
I could see "settling" temporarily while we are waiting for the WAS to return...but it is the price we pay if we want to bust the divorce!
Maybe it's my phrasing. I don't blame DB and I don't have regrets. I got so much out of it. There are just a couple of components that bother me for where I am NOW which are the illusions that 1) I should strive to "save the marriage" which I have done on paper and 2) that I can impact H's behavior more than I can. Each spouse has his/her own pathology and if that person does not want to change or deal with what are usually complex psychological issues, the marriage sucks indefinitely.
I have an H who wants to be married with NO conditions. He has traveled for most of the past year and a half since he left me. He has missed all of that time in being present for his children who were used to having him every day. I have dated him, been intimate, vacationed together as a family...I have also set boundaries when necessary. I have done LRT and it worked like a charm and then as soon as he had my attention he was content giving very little to me. When it was revealed he had a girlfriend (which he actually had all of last year while he was sleeping with me and in limbo with me), I listened and we talked about it and I thought about what I can live with and it became clear so I told him that he had made his choice and I would file for divorce because I will not be married to someone who has a girlfriend (one he expressed being in love with). I am attractive, have been extremely independent and self-assured...huge 180's which he responded to, but, I cannot be a childless single famous rich chick who has nothing but time and money to dote on him. So I told him it was over. He broke up with her and we stayed in limbo.
Now, he is talking to her again, and on public forums. He behaves as a single man. When I asked him a while back what optimal would be for him, he answered to have an open marriage where he can sleep with other women but I don't sleep with other men (okay so that was wishful thinking).
I have to move this month, I have finally laid it out for him because I have to either get a place with him or without him (he's out of town so I am dealing with all of it)...he said he is confused and if I divorce him and he regrets it one day, he will live with that. He loves me but when we are together "old [censored]" comes up. Yep, when he stayed in this house with me and the kids, NOTHING was expected of him. When he was taking another girl out on a Friday night (who happens to be a famous actress), I was distressed by that and that is what he is focusing on, that I had any feelings about his behavior.
You know what people? It is called cake eating and why wouldn't someone do it indefinitely? And like a child, you can cut them off and they do whatever they can to get it back. But, if you lure a WAS back with absolutely unsustainable behavior, if they happen to be spoiled narcissistic brats, they will expect that to sustain and the bar for you and what you get out of the relationship just sinks lower and lower.
So, do I get some kind of prize for staying married even though I'm on my own and my kids are growing up with a dad who comes and goes...am I setting a good example for my kids?
This is ridiculous. I have to create a life for myself and my kids and he just takes.
I don't even believe in divorce so that has made this quite a nightmare figuratively, logistically and spiritually. So, for me personally, to come to DB and get so much reinforcement to "save the marriage" and that I am basically becoming a WAW who will likely end up broke and alone...that was a real head-trap for me. To be fair, the majority of posters on here were awesome and encouraged me to cut him off and draw a hard line. It is the MWD stuff that I got tripped up on and the men here making comments on their threads about how scr*wed their wives would be without them. It saddened me that they would even want their wives to suffer or to stay with them out of fear or opportunism.
The notion that staying married is better has been a tough one to shake...of course it is better if...x,y and z.
I don't know. Maybe sometimes the evolution IS realizing that the WAS (the original one) may have problems and demons and issues that are beyond the LBS's power or expertise to reconcile.
a&k,
I understand everything you posted. I have thought many of your thoughts. The point I think you are missing is that what you are talking about the way you describe it is NOT a marriage my dear. A marriage takes two, any kind of relationship takes 2. So, drop the "I dont believe in divorce thing" and the associated guilt and change it to "I believe in marriage as a union of 2 people loving and respecting each other". If that's what you believe and I think it is, it will answer your questions about what to do and there is nothing else to it.
You've been one of my heroins here,
K
don't ever let anyone decide for you whether you should walk away or not.
someone did give me some valuable advice: don't apply someone else's situation to your own.
i went nuts thinking h was having an affair and tried to look for every clue to suggest that he was.
throughout my m, i had no reason to believe he was.
i've known my h for so long that i wouldn't give it a second thought.
but as soon as people who don't know him suggest that i hire a P.I or tell me that it is likely that he is because their xh had cheated on them.
well .. the madness just took over.
i think i did more damage to my goal more than anything.
you know your h better than anybody else.
you know for yourself that the benefits of staying together outweighs being apart.
i applaud you for standing your ground.
my story is just starting out. i know i can't jump to the end to find out if this ends in a happily ever after.
the wait is killing me.
but with encouragement from you, i hope to find peace at the end.
dumped.
a&k,
The point I think you are missing is that what you are talking about the way you describe it is NOT a marriage my dear.
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read it.
a&k,
The point I think you are missing is that what you are talking about the way you describe it is NOT a marriage my dear.
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read it.
Okay guys, let's get real. No one comes here with what any sane person would classify as a marriage. I read about husbands spawning with lovers and wives ignoring their husbands for months on end. The whole logic, in my opinion, is that we are trying to revive a marriage that is nearly dead from the moment we arrive here. So, I don't even get what the point of that comment is.
Kalni- thank you for the kind words. Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I read your thread and though "enough!!! She deserves so much better than this." And now it looks like you are in piecing.
I have wholeheartedly believed at points that my H and I are just in a phase and that we will ultimately end up together. It is very difficult to let that go. We had a wonderful holiday all together as a family. When he was in town, we were together as a family and it was the best. He obviously has redeeming qualities or I wouldn't be wavering.
The question for me is, am I pushing a square into a hole? And I thought that in your sitch too Kalni (though I haven't looked at your sitch for a while). I saw how tired you were of wearing the pants and having to constantly manage and be on your toes. It is exhausting. I want to breathe, I want someone I can lean on a little. I don't want to have to spend the rest of my life drawing water from a stone.
Dumped- Please, please change your screen name and stop signing off as "dumped." It is so negative and counter-productive for your perception of yourself and your forward progress. It pains me to read that. Just my two cents for ya.
a&k,
The point I think you are missing is that what you are talking about the way you describe it is NOT a marriage my dear.
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read it.
Okay guys, let's get real. No one comes here with what any sane person would classify as a marriage. I read about husbands spawning with lovers and wives ignoring their husbands for months on end. The whole logic, in my opinion, is that we are trying to revive a marriage that is nearly dead from the moment we arrive here. So, I don't even get what the point of that comment is.
Hi A&K,
I think that what Kalni said was "the way you describe it". If my W told me she wanted an open marriage; I wouuld have to say that is not a marriage at all. Is this what your H wants or is it just his "ideal fantasy" life. To me, if it is what he really wants; that would be a non-starter.
Is he trying to make the marriage work? Is he treating you any better than before? Is he improving in your eyes? Is he committing to you?
I can tell you that WAS can change. It doesn't become perfect, but they can decide that the marriage is valuable to them and work on it. Has this happened for you?
Sorry if my previous comment sounded harsh.
-T
I know what she meant. I asked him what his ideal was and he was honest. It was not his actual expectation (at least I'm pretty sure).
As of now he is "confused"...he will not jump into the marriage with both feet. He is still attached and loves me and does not want to file for divorce but can accept if I do, he knows I have been patient. He is a flirt and that is just the way he is, he says he has that public persona because he feels like nobody...(this is all paraphrasing what he has told me).
He is a showbiz guy, into image and is working far away, far removed from me and the kids and our debt and reality. He wants it easy, he wants what he wants when he wants it. But he sent flowers on Valentines Day and wants to be THAT guy too. He gives me most of his money (to cover bills etc). He wants to talk almost every day.
Anyway, I get just enough to keep my from filing. Even now, I can feel that he is getting nervous since I laid it out for him.
He is a child. He would need to seriously get some help to grow up and be a real husband. I'm just so f*cking exhausted dealing with him.
And, he's a lucky SOB that I would even consider being with him after all of this. He's impossible to live with and frankly I can't stand him in so many ways by now. But I would still do it. If he was in, I would stretch myself and I would step up, honor our commitment and be in too.
When do you just accept that a WAS is not just unwilling but incapable of being all in? I don't want to give up on him, I love him but...he's blowing it.
Just a few quick thoughts as I am pressed for time right now. This is a very interesting topic.
DBing is in the first instance, I think, a way of putting the brakes on a vehicle that is sliding down a hill. Once the brakes are applied and the downward slide is averted, you have to begin the work of getting back up the hill. It may take a while. The vehicle may be stalled and it may be obvious that the other partner doesn't want to be in the vehicle with you. But you are in the driver's seat because you are the one who wants the vehicle to keep going up the hill.
But the brakes can't be on all the time and there must be forward , upward movement at some point. If there was any "settling" before, that settling must be addressed by both persons in order to move forward. In a sense we all do a little "settling" because we will never find a person with every single thing that we desire in a partner. There is no perfect M because there are no perfect people. On major moral issues there can be no settling because that is a recipe for disaster in a M.
After the dust has settled, you are easing off the brakes and the disaster has been averted, you must be in agreement that you are headed in the same direction.
I don't think that the concept of DBing encourages settling in the long term. Perhaps you "settle" for somethings in the interim while trying to get matters stabalized. I don't think that this is really a DB concept in any event. It is a marriage concept - for better or for worse. I may "accept" a certain state of affairs knowing that that may be the state of play at the time but that I would not settle for that situation ad infinitum because I have the expectation that the issues would be addressed in order to have a healthy M. Some issues take time to be resolved and sticking in there while giving the situation that time is not settling in my view. The point is that there must be some resolution and that requires genuine work from both parties at some point.
M is really meant to be a beautiful thing where two people are invested in each other, have each other's best at heart and seek to reach the standard that God has set for marriage. It really hurts my heart that so many people have fundamental struggles in marriage because this is so far from what it is intended to be.
When do you just accept that a WAS is not just unwilling but incapable of being all in?
Does it really matter? If he's simply unwilling to make changes is that somehow better? Or is it better that he's incapable of growing?
The bottom line is that he has learned the bare minimum you require and that is all he will do. Is that good enough for you? Do not expect that things will ever get better. They may, they may not. I believe you're better off preparing for the worst and being happily surprised if anything surpasses those expectations.
IMHO, you deserve WAY better. I have always thought that. If you decide that staying married is more important than having a fulfilling relationship then that is your choice. I understand there are children involved and you'd rather raise your sons in an in tact family. But you have to accept the consequences that go with it. The man you're married to is not acting like a partner, he's more like a third child.
If you choose to D then yes, it will be difficult. It's hard being a single parent. It's hard to make ends meet. But will you be happier without H's constant drama? Can you provide a more stable home for the boys on your own? Only you know what's best for A&K.
You can love someone but it doesn't mean they are a good partner. You can love someone and still divorce them because you love yourself more and you choose to do what is best for you.
a&k,
The point I think you are missing is that what you are talking about the way you describe it is NOT a marriage my dear.
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read it.
Okay guys, let's get real. No one comes here with what any sane person would classify as a marriage. I read about husbands spawning with lovers and wives ignoring their husbands for months on end. The whole logic, in my opinion, is that we are trying to revive a marriage that is nearly dead from the moment we arrive here. So, I don't even get what the point of that comment is.
Kalni- thank you for the kind words. Seriously, I can't tell you how many times I read your thread and though "enough!!! She deserves so much better than this." And now it looks like you are in piecing.
I have wholeheartedly believed at points that my H and I are just in a phase and that we will ultimately end up together. It is very difficult to let that go. We had a wonderful holiday all together as a family. When he was in town, we were together as a family and it was the best. He obviously has redeeming qualities or I wouldn't be wavering.
The question for me is, am I pushing a square into a hole? And I thought that in your sitch too Kalni (though I haven't looked at your sitch for a while). I saw how tired you were of wearing the pants and having to constantly manage and be on your toes. It is exhausting. I want to breathe, I want someone I can lean on a little. I don't want to have to spend the rest of my life drawing water from a stone.
I love it that you dont beat around the bush with your words...!!
The reason for my comment was and is that you dont sound like DBing anymore. And the way you describe the situation it is different than the point when we all find this site. You ask yourself, if what you are getting is enough and whether you are settling. So, I assumed -sorry- that you think this is it. This is what I was offered, this is the best my DBing got me, what do I do?
Last year I was like you, asking whether he was incapable of changing and I should shut the f@ck up and take it for my kids, my finances etc etc. Turned out, what I was getting was what was left from my H that was still in R with the OW he never had agreed existed. So there was a reason for the little he was putting in our M. Not an excuse, a real reason : an OW. Now we are in piecing. And the man that I am dealing with, is different. I mean really different. He got his chance with me. And -wait you wont believe this- he is trying. He is loving and caring and IN 100%. THAT gives me strength to go on trying to get over the lies and his A and that gives me hope. We are far from having a good M. There are days we do. Some, not so much. The difference is, that in the not so good days, he is the one that is patient and doenst give up. THAT is big. He says he wants our M. He says he wants to make it better than before. He is doing things to prove it. Now, if he was again telling me, he is confused and didnt know if he could change...well, then I wouldnt be here. Of course I've been around 3 years and that probably means I have served my time in Dbing.
What I am trying to say is, that I think you are where I was last year. I dont know if it is another woman or his job or something else with your H, but in order for you to have a chance for something better, something has got to give. In my case, I found out the truth, in your case? I dont know.
Accepting what you are accepting now, sounds sick, stressful, unfair to me. And I say that AFTER being there (to the point that things were similar). Which means I am not judging you, so dont get offended.
I am only pointing out, the way you sound and the way you describe things, there must be a turning point soon. If you continue like this, it will become status, much harder to break. And I am talking mentality, philosophy.
K
PS The nice days with the kids, family trips etc all took place last year. All along, I felt I was settling, sacrificing me for them, thankfully, not anymore...
Dumped- Please, please change your screen name and stop signing off as "dumped." It is so negative and counter-productive for your perception of yourself and your forward progress. It pains me to read that. Just my two cents for ya.
if i change my name, i'd likely pick "left behind".
i feel very negative for most of the time. i don't know if i have hit rock bottom yet. i want to wake up and say .. enough is enough. no more whining, pouting in the corner. or as my friend said to me .. get out of the toilet bowl.
[/quote]
i want to wake up and say .. enough is enough. no more whining, pouting in the corner. or as my friend said to me .. get out of the toilet bowl.
yeah this ^
Dumped- Please, please change your screen name and stop signing off as "dumped." It is so negative and counter-productive for your perception of yourself and your forward progress. It pains me to read that. Just my two cents for ya.
if i change my name, i'd likely pick "left behind".
i feel very negative for most of the time. i don't know if i have hit rock bottom yet. i want to wake up and say .. enough is enough. no more whining, pouting in the corner. or as my friend said to me .. get out of the toilet bowl.
You can stay in the toilet as long as you need to but if you wont even change your screen name to something positive, how can anyone help you?
You've got to know that even if you don't know how it will happen, things will get better.
At my worst and most negative point, I started as "Alive and Kicking"...I'm not saying I'm better than you, I am saying that it helps to stop seeing yourself as a pathetic victim and even if you feel like you are, at least start to envision and present yourself as in a better place than that. One foot in front of the other.
Overall, I am doing very well and I see a beautiful life for myself. I feel pretty strongly that I will divorce my H.
Whether it is an OW or work or whatever, it is a choice on their parts. What if there is work or OW or some other distraction in the future? I get what you mean about the truth helping you come back together (I experienced that before when my H left once many years ago). He came back committed and won me back and I trusted him. We all make choices as to what we will allow into our lives and to impact our families.
Kalni- I hope for you that your H is not still in the cycle of trying to win your approval and meet your expectations rather than create a genuinely fulfilling life together because that is what he values most. If you are in it, I say make every effort to go 100%, trust, laugh, love, live your life as harmoniously as you can. It will be worth it no matter what the future holds. If my H expressed a desire to try, to fully commit, even after all of this, I would go all in. What do you have to lose? As of now, my H is straight up saying he is willing to lose this marriage rather than try. So, I think the fat lady is singing for me. They are just words and he will be back...I am pretty certain of that but I'm so f*cking tired.
I don't hold DB responsible for my marriage or the results of my "work"...I honestly think that most of the marriages on here will eventually end but for a very few where the individuals BOTH do the hard work of growing up and changing.
I know I can't shut up and take it for my kids. I pondered it for a while. It is not true to who I am or my values. It is difficult to pull the plug especially because, as a child of divorce, I know that the drama never ends...the ex and all of his baggage impacts my life indefinitely. What I do get in divorcing him is being master of my own life and divorcing myself from the expectation, hope, prospect that we will be together. It is me creating a life for myself and my kids and being available to new relationships.
Kalni, I think you did settle for a long time. I did too. Whether it pays off in the end remains to be seen. I have nothing but respect for you for hanging in. I respect myself for doing it too. I just don't know where the end point is, it sure feels like this is it for me.
When do you just accept that a WAS is not just unwilling but incapable of being all in?
Does it really matter? If he's simply unwilling to make changes is that somehow better? Or is it better that he's incapable of growing?
The bottom line is that he has learned the bare minimum you require and that is all he will do. Is that good enough for you? Do not expect that things will ever get better. They may, they may not. I believe you're better off preparing for the worst and being happily surprised if anything surpasses those expectations.
IMHO, you deserve WAY better. I have always thought that. If you decide that staying married is more important than having a fulfilling relationship then that is your choice. I understand there are children involved and you'd rather raise your sons in an in tact family. But you have to accept the consequences that go with it. The man you're married to is not acting like a partner, he's more like a third child.
If you choose to D then yes, it will be difficult. It's hard being a single parent. It's hard to make ends meet. But will you be happier without H's constant drama? Can you provide a more stable home for the boys on your own? Only you know what's best for A&K.
You can love someone but it doesn't mean they are a good partner. You can love someone and still divorce them because you love yourself more and you choose to do what is best for you.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. It is difficult when at one moment I know sure as day that this ridiculous and that we can pull this marriage off of the cliff and then the next moment I know I need to end it.
It is no less than horrifying to take the leap on behalf of my children. He left and he doesn't have the balls to pull the plug...that is the part that is hardest to forgive. I do not know that life will be better for them if we divorce. I just don't know. It is the hardest part to figure out.
But, I'm alone. I have been for quite a while now and as exhausted as I am, I know what single parenting is and I can handle it. I have to let go of the dream and again, the much purported notion that divorce is bad and f*cks up children and that I should DB until the cows come home. I would do just about anything for the welfare of my children so it is a mindf*ck to initiate a process that "experts" say is so painful and destructive for them. Grrr....tough stuff.
I still think I need to pull the plug.
And the man that I am dealing with, is different. I mean really different. He got his chance with me. And -wait you wont believe this- he is trying. He is loving and caring and IN 100%. THAT gives me strength to go on trying to get over the lies and his A and that gives me hope.
This is the same for me. When W decided to work on the marriage and give up A, things changed in a big way. We are not yet to the marriage we want. I still hurt from the affair and she still feels guilty and wonders if I will ever "let it go". But we work together to get past those feelings. However, we both realize that those feelings are echoes of the past and not our current reality.
But when things changed, they changed in a big and noticeable way over a period of a few weeks. I don't know if it happens the same for all who reconcile, but this does seem to be a commonality between Kalni and I.
-T
"Does it really matter? If he's simply unwilling to make changes is that somehow better? Or is it better that he's incapable of growing?"
With "unwilling", circumstances and time can compel a person to make changes. With "incapable" it is a lost cause, no hope.
It is different to me.
dumped,
I think you are asking me about how I came to the realization my W was in an A? For me it was very easy and as I learned more about affairs it became even easier. Here are some hints that let me know through her words that she was involved with someone else.
Comes home telling me about guy basically hitting on her, complimenting her... Guy is not attractive so I don't think much of it.... come to find out physical attraction is not important with affairs... it is mostly about the emotional connection
The last year she has been very involved with work, lots of things going on their, our emotional connection has become almost non-existant.. we are basically roomates taking care of kids and everyday life. the things we usually enjoy just aren't very enjoyable anymore... our marriage is basically dead.
Early oct. i get the
ILYBINILWY = i care about you, but i'm not excited about you.. and often means i'm excited about someone else.
Doesn't know what she wants needs space, wants me to move out... i can date, she doesn't want to ... she doesn't think she will ever get married again... Needs space = needs space to find out if OM is what she really wants
My friend sees her at Target store with the man i am suspicious of. She admits he is getting a divorce as well and they talk about what they are going through... admits she has feelings for him... is having at least EA with him... and could see dating him in a couple of years....
Couple months later find LOVE note to him in garbage... how he is everything she needs, that she is sooo excited to give the best of her to him forever.... nice.
I am not a jealous person at all. When a jealous person becomes jealous, which I was from the very start, their is usually a very good reason. It has been 4 weeks since I have exposed the love note to her and her family. She is back in reality and we get along very well. She has told OM she needs space and we are thinking of going to retrovialle in a couple of weeks to see what the future holds. Without exposing, I guarantee D would have been filed by now.
At the time I found the love note I was done trying. However, I did dig through the trash to find the note because I was absolutely fed up with the lies. Who knows what the future holds, but my feelings for her are coming back, we have very positive interactions now, hang out alot and I do see a chance where we could make it work... Hell if we can make it back through this, what can't we make it through right?
With "unwilling", circumstances and time can compel a person to make changes. With "incapable" it is a lost cause, no hope.
It is different to me.
i couldn't agree with you more.
ok .. how about this .. when a man drops the ILYBINILWY, is this a lost cause with no hope? or can time compel a person to love you again?
At my worst and most negative point, I started as "Alive and Kicking"...I'm not saying I'm better than you, I am saying that it helps to stop seeing yourself as a pathetic victim and even if you feel like you are, at least start to envision and present yourself as in a better place than that. One foot in front of the other.
maybe this is why i can't seem to find my way out of the toilet bowl.
it's like i can't see myself in a better place.
i stopped going to IC for about 4 weeks.
last week, i restarted.
my anger took over and i could hear myself complain about the same things over and over again.
i just want it to stop.
i think your w is very lucky to have you.
when i asked you how you came to the realization point, i was more asking about .. what happened when you found the note? you said that at that point, you were done trying. then what?
how did you go from "done trying" to reconciliation? if you were done trying, what changed your mind about taking her back?
When I found the note i was relieved. I wasn't mad or jealous one bit. I knew exactly why she was on a rampage to get divorced. yep, we had/ have lots of problems but the biggest one was OM.
Well i wouldn't say we are reconciling yet. We hang out alot, laugh, are friends... I know who my wife is and I am really trying to put myself in her position when this happened. I consider myself a person that has extremely high morals and character. However, If an attractive woman were to have complimented me, admired me, and gave me everything that I was desperately craving in my life, could I have resisted? I would like to think I could, but I really don't know.
If an attractive woman were to have complimented me, admired me, and gave me everything that I was desperately craving in my life, could I have resisted? I would like to think I could, but I really don't know.
This is all about boundaries and understanding consequences. I have no problem answering this myself even in my situation: it would not happen while I am married for certain. It's a boundary I have set for myself. People with high integrity do not become romantically involved with people they are not married to, and they certainly don't have sex with them.
Apart from the boundaries, there are consequences: self-loathing, guilt, bringing home an STD are all possibilities. That is all without even considering the feelings of my W.
I haven't always had such clear boundaries, but then I didn't get married when I knew I had a problem setting boundaries.
There is no excuse for this kind of betrayal. It is simply wrong. It is never right, and you should not be enabling such behavior by making excuses for it. It's wrong. Period.
That doesn't mean you can't forgive somebody and move on leaving the bitter feelings of resentment and betrayal behind. You can, but an A is never right. Period.
At my worst and most negative point, I started as "Alive and Kicking"...I'm not saying I'm better than you, I am saying that it helps to stop seeing yourself as a pathetic victim and even if you feel like you are, at least start to envision and present yourself as in a better place than that. One foot in front of the other.
maybe this is why i can't seem to find my way out of the toilet bowl.
it's like i can't see myself in a better place.
i stopped going to IC for about 4 weeks.
last week, i restarted.
my anger took over and i could hear myself complain about the same things over and over again.
i just want it to stop.
Look, I was nearly suicidal. I saw no path that was acceptable. I complained, I cried, I had panic attacks. And I also knew somewhere that people go through all of it and survive and eventually feel better. So, I didn't know how it would happen and I couldn't see a vision of a life I could accept but I knew it was out there somewhere. It is still a struggle not to fall back in the toilet, I do occasionally but I just don't believe that I am destined to be miserable forever. Nope. Most days are more good then bad. It is a choice I make over and over. Life is short, I am going to make the best of it.
With "unwilling", circumstances and time can compel a person to make changes.
Can. Possibly. Not definitely. That's why in my mind it's not really that different. There is no way to know IF someone will ever change. You make decisions based on past and present experience. Trying to make decisions based on possible future outcomes isn't going to do you any good.
FWIW, I too am a child of divorce. It's not ideal but children do survive. BF's parents are still together and he's just as messed up from their relationship. As far as I'm concerned it's a wash.
I get it. But anyone trying to DB is hoping their spouse will change or they wouldn't be here. I actually left the boards when I stopped believing he would change and faced what I have in front of me. But the whole idea is that something will change...and often trying to compel that change. I only got so far with that and then went the other route, work on me. It's good.
aliveandkicking,
What was the other route?
work on me rather than hope for him to change.
AAK, I kind of get what you're saying. It did occur to me often on the boards that for all the DB one's posterior off advice here, GAL, ad nauseam etc, a contradiction in terms was that a final stand can be found in trying to put the brakes on the WAS train no matter how you phrase it.
"Do it for you, not him/her. Be the best you you can be". Yups sure, but that's about as tenuous as the line between hope and expectation, fear and denial.
Oh and Tjack, I don't quite have the exact words for you but your W seems to be in a wierd combo of entirely checked out of your M and ultimate cake eating. She's got you accepting that you could be good friends, but not meant to be together (typical WAS fog btw), she has you to fall back on as old Faithful while she has options to get her rocks off elsewhere. Perfect for her.
Yep, sometimes a WAS is just cake eating, sometimes building a bridge. It takes time to see the patterns and recognize which it is.
I don't see it as cake eating, she is not seeing him, she talks with remorse about her affair, she has told him she needs space to figure this out. She is coming clean with their relationship. The lies and fog are diminishing every day. I will not be her friend if this is how we end. She knows that. I am giving her space, I am enjoying my life without her. The interactions we have are almost all kid related. She gets nothing physical from me. She knows where I stand and I will not be 2nd choice. I am giving her some time to really think this through without influence from me or him. I have some patience left for "us". But am fully prepared to move on without her.
That sounds great tjack and I certainly don't know your sitch. I think in general many of us find that it's hard to discern what is really happening in real time. My H and I have had so many moments of apparently being on the verge of reconciliation and so I give so much and I step up and then next thing I know, it's crystal clear that it's never really going to be on 100%.
AAK,
Great to see you're still around. In your sitch when your H is saying he wants to have a one-way "open marriage", that's not cake-eating. That's CRAZY TALK.
Hope your kids are doing well.
stuck808 (now MrBond)
I just read parts of your sitch and I am completely with you. My sitch is so similar to yours and I have wondered at times when DB just doesn't really work. I don't have any advice, but I completely understand where you are at from the H to your beliefs about D because I don't want a D and disagree with Ding, but there is a point where a person has to move on and not be attached to someone who does not want to fully be in the marriage. They just want you around for looks when it is convenient and that is it.
I am with you and hope you can find the answers that you need.
I'm actually doing really well with my anger (so yes, but to a healthy degree)...today when speaking with my dad who was livid (he and my H were very close and have remained civil but my dad is fed up now), I told him that what helps me with my anger in dealing with H is that I really feel sorry for H, not making excuses, just pity him so I don't kill him.
I am most angry that he doesn't have the balls to take action and file. He is a lazy selfish baby who wont take responsibility for his family and where he fits in it. So, that I have to be the one to file is infuriating. That I had to tell my kids last night, when we were looking at a new place, that daddy will most likely not be living in our next house with us (they were wondering if the place was too small to fit him and I couldn't bring myself to say 100% he's not going to be there). THAT is what infuriates me, that it looks like I am shutting daddy out and making all of the decisions, that I have to witness and absorb all their pain when he is off in nowhere land completely oblivious to the hell of this all.
I'm a big girl, I can handle my heartache and accept that I married a very juvenile individual who may not have been who I thought he was.
But, when it comes to my kids, how can I not be angry at someone who is hurting my children??? That is a hurdle I will probably have to work on for the rest of my life.
AAK,
Great to see you're still around. In your sitch when your H is saying he wants to have a one-way "open marriage", that's not cake-eating. That's CRAZY TALK.
Hope your kids are doing well.
stuck808 (now MrBond)
Hi darling! I like the name change!
With regard to my H, I don't think he was proposing that we have an open marriage. I asked him if he could have it any way he wanted what would it be and he said that's his fantasy. I prefer the truth anyway so it really doesn't bother me. I want a lot of things I'm not going to get. I don't think it is crazy. Some people do have open marriages and I even contemplated it (maybe better than most people who cheat and lie, and it is MOST people). So, I don't really even judge it, I just know that I can't make that deal with him.
What bothers me is that the crux of it is he doesn't want to have to make any decisions or give anything up. He doesn't want to carve it out and make agreements, commitments, open marriage or not. He's just floating in space and going where the wind blows. He is being paid to be far away 95% of the time (since he left me)...so, some day, he will come back around and have to face his creation. Or maybe he'll just keep floating.
"But, when it comes to my kids, how can I not be angry at someone who is hurting my children??? That is a hurdle I will probably have to work on for the rest of my life."
This is the hard thing!
My H and I have had so many moments of apparently being on the verge of reconciliation and so I give so much and I step up and then next thing I know, it's crystal clear that it's never really going to be on 100%.
I wonder what would happen if you required more of him
before you give so much.
My H and I have had so many moments of apparently being on the verge of reconciliation and so I give so much and I step up and then next thing I know, it's crystal clear that it's never really going to be on 100%.
I wonder what would happen if you required more of him
before you give so much.
I don't second guess what I've done. Our marriage was very damaged. We ahd an opportunity to experience each other very positively in the past year and a half, without that, I wouldn't have believed him if he did want to go all in...it would have seemed disingenuous.
Now, I did require more from him; I asked him to make a decision as to whether he is willing to try and he said he's confused...blah blah blah. So, if he wants to be single, he can be single.
Quite honestly it sounds like he's going to be floating for awhile. It comes down to the fact that he doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions because they have consequences. It sound like he knows what he's doing is wrong, but he doesn't want to face up to his actions. That's why he's gone all the time.
Hopefully your kids are not going to pick up any of those things from him. They probably see him as the "cool" dad though.
Great to hear that you're still up and kickin' @$$.
Hopefully your kids are not going to pick up any of those things from him. They probably see him as the "cool" dad though.
Don't even get me started on this...
I know how you feel though.
There were times when my girls would ask me why mom was doing what she was doing and I wanted to gently smile at them and say "because mommy is a little crazy right now and we don't stay too close to crazy people".
: )
Just about the hardest thing in the world to witness is my little boys faces when I remind them that daddy wont be moving with us into our new house.
My older son said he wants to know if we (me and H) will ever be together again and he's scared that we wont be.
And that d*ck-head is off somewhere oblivious...ggrrrr...
Stunned that this can still hurt so much.
Doing okay overall but looking forward to being out of the acutely painful stage (especially for my kids)...
Hello AAK. I know it still hurts...you genuinely cared, about him, the kids, the family, and the future together.
I don't know how long it'll be painful, but I can relate.